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All right.
Welcome back to Agency Journey this week.

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I've got the pleasure of bringing
on Ross Crooks from column five.

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Column fivemedia.
Com.

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Ross, thanks for making
time and joining me today.

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Yeah.
Thanks for having me.

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I appreciate it.

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So we got a chance to
meet earlier this year.

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You got a really cool story.

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And I want to dig into a couple of

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similarities in your journey and
some of what we've been through.

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But first, could you give us maybe 32nd

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minute long kind of overview of column
five and your role at column five?

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Yeah, sure.

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So column five is a creative agency.

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We do a lot of
marketing work for brands, and in more

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recent years, that means
kind of working with them from anywhere in

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the brand strategy, content strategy
and then into content production.

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So we've done a lot of creative content

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production in a variety of forms
over the years.

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And our client base looks like
a lot of tech brands, but we have a pretty

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diverse array of clients in education
and nonprofit space as well.

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So it's spread around quite a bit.

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And then my role with the company.

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I'm a co founder.

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I have two partners that I started

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qualified with about twelve years ago, and
I oversee our creative teams and our kind

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of operations teams were there three
cofounders when you started as well.

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That's kind of a trick question.

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There were five originally, but we

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actually sort of separated from
the other two pretty early on.

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So it's been three for most of the ride.
We started.

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Andrew, my current business partner.

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He and I, along with two other good

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friends out of our College dorm room
back in 2011, started our first agency.

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I went and met with a friend.
Totally different.

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He's a big pole barn builder, so totally

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different industry and had lunch
with him like my senior year.

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And he said, So you're
starting a business.

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How many founders?

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I said four.

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He's like a year from now when we're

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talking, there's not
going to be four of you.

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I was like a rude thing to say.
It never works out.

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Don't take it personally when it happens,

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you guys probably won't be in
business together for the whole time.

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A couple of years later, it was the
two of us still great relationship.

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It's just hard to get.

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A business is a big undertaking,
and not everyone is a fit.

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And you don't know all
that stuff going in.

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Yes, it really has to be kind of a perfect
balance of equal contribution and

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skill sets that work well together and
personalities that work well together.

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Right.

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We still give each other a hard
time about ownership jokes.

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It's classic.

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So I was doing some digging
through some of your background.

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This theme of, like, data design
or data visualization came up.

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You are an author.

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We didn't mention that at all, but
you've written a book on infographics.

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You started a software that looks
like it was around infographics.

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Where did that focus?

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Maybe tell us a little bit, I guess, set

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the stage on what that
background looks like.

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But where does that come from?
Yeah.

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Good question.

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It's a bit of a long story and
a little bit of an accident.

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But what happened, essentially, was

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my cofounders and I were all kind
of working in different businesses.

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We were all working in
the clothing industry.

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I had started a clothing recommends
clothing brand

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with one of my partners, and our other
partner was doing the clothing boutique.

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And so we're all kind of working together

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in the space, trying to make
our first companies work.

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And
we started a blog that was sort of like an

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art, music, fashion, lifestyle type blog
to be able to cross promote

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our own brands, but also, like, bring
partners in and build relationships.

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And that sort of thing if you only create

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something of value, basically
through sharing and giving media.

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And as we got into that and started

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creating content for this thing,
we started to get pretty good at creating

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and promoting content and getting
it popular, having to go viral.

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And that sort of thing,
this is like 2007 2008.

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And what happened is a lot of brands
started to see us have success in that.

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And some of the early startups that we're
getting into kind of content marketing and

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trying to stretch their
marketing dollars a little bit further.

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And so they started hitting us up to

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create and promote
content for their blogs.

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So Mint dot com was a really early one

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that was a client of ours that was
kind of a startup at the time.

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And we started creating content for them.

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And how the data visualization and
infographics focus came was really what

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was happening is we were creating,
promoting content and a lot of the social

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news sites at the time, which
was like the Redditbid.

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Com stumble upon.

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And what we were seeing was a lot of
people

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really geeking out on old infographics,
like scanning them out encyclopedias,

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looking at them in old
newspaper clippings.

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But no one was really creating new,
contemporary infographics outside of, like

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a few news outlets, like The New
York Times at a very high level.

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So as we were writing articles for these
startups, we started to kind of piece

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together, hey, we can use this data from
these startups and visualize it

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and use contemporary kind of graphic
design to make a more visual artifact.

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And that was kind of how we made a name

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for ourselves was in kind
of pioneering those common.

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Now it's kind of a mainstay in the
marketing ecosystem, but it's kind of

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long, skinny blog infographics
kind of develop organically like that.

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That's wild.

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Remember Noah Kagan, was it meant back in
the day right before our time, I guess.

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Okay.
And that's kind of a wilderness.

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At what point then does the
agency become, like, was that.

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Did you just get enough traction on that

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side that that was the evolution
of, hey, we want to start.

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We might as well do this for now
as an agency or what's the story?

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We were just trying to figure out a way to

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work together and do something that was
fun and creative and make some money.

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And yeah, that started to get traction.

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And so we sort of slow over the next year

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or so kind of shuttered our other
businesses and develop something together.

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And it started growing really quickly.

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So we kind of put all the eggs in that
basket and then so you want to building

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out a software. But my impression is it's
an infographic generator, right?

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Yeah.

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Kind of a web based
design tool that was meant for.

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Like, Canva for infographics, basically.
Yeah.

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I think there are a lot of similar stuff.
Okay.

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Makes sense.
And then is that still active?

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There are a few clients that we're still

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working actively with, but we're not
actively marketing at our selling yet.

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Makes sense.
How was that?

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I assume at that point, the
agency already had legs.

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Was that the I mean, I feel like every
agency goes through at some point in time.

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They're like, we're going to
build the software on the side.

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We've got these extra development hours

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and resources that we
can do and build it out.

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And some of them take and some
of them don't take as much.

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Yeah, there's a range.

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But with the agency, the main thing the

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whole time and software was that
side business or what's your yeah.

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We started the agency in 2009
and kind of properly started it.

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And then
we started incubating the software maybe

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in 2012 or 13 and then spun it out into a
separate company

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in 13 or 14 and raised some venture
capital or speed ground for it.

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And kind of made it split off the company

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and made a separate go of
it with a separate team.

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And we did that for three or four years.

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And
we have a lot of good traction, but didn't

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get quite traction that we needed to
have it survived on its own.

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And so we ultimately pulled it back into

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the agency and kind of
kept focusing on that.

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I can 100% relate.

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I mean, we a project management tool.

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Starting in 2013,
House spun it out as its own business,

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took all the best people from the
agency and moved over to the software.

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And ultimately, we weren't that good at
software and consulting and had a choice

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to make between one or the other and went
down the road that we were better at the

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less lucrative path from
evaluation perspective.

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It's hard work.
It's competitive area, especially when

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you're in something like
project management or market.

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It's like just in this
family busy ecosystem.

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That's awesome.

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And then so for a little while,
you were also teaching at Columbia, and

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you were writing and you're building an
agency and you had a fashion manual.

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I'll back up.
I'll start with the book here.

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What was the journey to say?

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Hey, I need to write a book.

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And then was it worth
the effort that it took?

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Yeah.
Good question.

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You make it sound like everything
happened at once, and it kind of did.

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It was like, I think 2012 ish, but yeah,
we had the opportunity to

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widely approach us book publisher to
write a book on infographics, and we were

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kind of the leaders in that space and had
done a lot of thinking around it and

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developed more practices
and things like that.

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Other people were creating
infographics for sure.

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But I think we were the first people to

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start to do it at scale
and really commercialize it.

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That was like an exciting opportunity for

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all of us to be able to put our name on
something and share what we knew and also

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a good kind of marketing tool to have to
say that we wrote a book on the topic.

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And yeah, I think it was the exact same
week that Columbia University approached

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us to write
to do a course on visualization of

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information,
so we couldn't really say no to either.

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And so we were developing the course
and writing the book at the same time.

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And I was on my honeymoon for some of it

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and moving into a new office and
building it out and that sort of thing.

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So it was a very crazy time.

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But I think looking back, certainly,
I think it was worth the time and effort

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to be able to write the book and
the experience of teaching as well.

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I kind of wish I had more time to dedicate

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to it and obviously
thinking of philosophy and all those

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things have evolved quite a bit over
the years from those early days.

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So I think I'd love to be able to update
it sometime or to do a follow up.

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Right.
Well, I wanted to bring it up because

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you're saying Wiley approached
us and Columbia approached us.

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And then if you go to com fivemedia.

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Com for anybody who's looking at the
site, you can see a bunch of logo.

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You guys have worked with LinkedIn and
Uber and Netflix and Dropbox, and you've

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got all these big
household names in the tech space.

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But those connections obviously don't come

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to most four year old agencies
or real estate agencies.

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Is this largely a product of networking or
I mean, the combination of you guys were

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super early on, a trend
that stuck as well.

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And so you got a chance to be first
movers and benefit from that advantage.

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But
you're saying things that most agency

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owners don't get to live through early on
in their career, which is why I wanted to

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have you on, because it's
a fascinating story.

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Where did those connections come from?

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Yeah, I think a lot of it did come from
being kind of a first mover in that space.

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So we were able to be found when people
were looking for execution on that.

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The other piece was we were working with a

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lot of these kind of scrappy
early stage startups.

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So as these people got acquired, we kind
of came into their mother company, right.

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So into acquired men.

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So we work with Turbocharc and we work
with QuickBooks and these sorts of things.

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We work with LinkedIn and Microsoft, and

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they came together and
GitHub and things like that.

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So I think some of that just happened

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naturally through this
sort of M and a cycle.

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We had a lot of really good clients early
on that we were friends with and that were

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really helpful to us and
just making introductions.

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And those people went places.

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I think a lot of that is just sort of the
organic things that happen when people

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move from company to company
and clients acquire each other.

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But I think
the nature of our work has always been

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pretty visible because early on it was
like the goal was always to go viral.

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So we had a lot of that.

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And we had contribution, a lot of
our graphics created by column five.

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And so a lot of people would find
us through those sorts of things.

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And now that that's
shifted away from the novelty of the

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format, and it shifted away from being
able to get credit on everything we do.

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It's much more about our own
content marketing strategy.

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So creating useful resources on our blog
and kind of pulling people into that

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the blog outside of being
beautifully designed.

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You guys produce a ton of content
on all these different topics.

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I definitely recommend looking at the blog

234
00:14:54,970 --> 00:15:00,680
if you're listening for inspiration
as well as the resources themselves.

235
00:15:00,960 --> 00:15:04,780
So that piece hasn't, even though
infographics

236
00:15:04,810 --> 00:15:09,260
they zoomed up in terms of a trend and
then maybe have cooled off a little bit.

237
00:15:09,290 --> 00:15:11,900
The dedication of content hasn't changed

238
00:15:11,930 --> 00:15:16,520
at all, which is cool to see
from the story.

239
00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:20,960
One of the things that a lot of early
stage agencies struggle with agencies in

240
00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:22,900
general struggle with is
like, who's my market?

241
00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,580
What are we doing for them? What's the fit
between what we're good at and what the

242
00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:29,760
market needs and how do we get in front of
people?

243
00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,400
Was the tech ecosystem? Was that an
intentional decision or was that kind of

244
00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:38,260
an accident of, hey, there are early
adopters, and you guys are early adopters.

245
00:15:38,290 --> 00:15:41,540
I think it was more just
the coincidence of that.

246
00:15:41,570 --> 00:15:44,860
And even over time, we've asked ourselves

247
00:15:44,890 --> 00:15:51,460
the question of, like, do we need to
narrow our focus because we work on

248
00:15:51,490 --> 00:15:58,980
with a lot of different companies, maybe
100 plus companies in any given year, and

249
00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:01,620
those are all across different
industries and vertical.

250
00:16:01,650 --> 00:16:06,820
So I think there tends to be a tech focus
just because those are people that have

251
00:16:06,850 --> 00:16:13,260
pretty well established
digital marketing practices and

252
00:16:13,290 --> 00:16:18,140
so it tends to be a good fit, but we've
never been exclusive in that way.

253
00:16:18,160 --> 00:16:21,980
Right.
That makes sense how scaled out and are

254
00:16:22,000 --> 00:16:24,020
servicing the volume of
clients that you are.

255
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:24,840
What does that look like?

256
00:16:24,870 --> 00:16:28,540
Scaling client services to
support that kind of growth?

257
00:16:28,570 --> 00:16:30,860
Yeah.
It's always work in progress.

258
00:16:30,890 --> 00:16:32,680
I think

259
00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:39,400
we've been experimenting a lot even this
year just with reorganizing our teams and

260
00:16:39,430 --> 00:16:44,280
working in different ways that
might better serve our clients.

261
00:16:44,640 --> 00:16:47,120
I think that

262
00:16:49,520 --> 00:16:53,720
what I noticed there, I guess, is that
there's always this balance between the

263
00:16:53,750 --> 00:16:58,900
flexibility of staffing, anyone on
anything at any time with the focus of

264
00:16:58,930 --> 00:17:04,570
having a dedicated team that
works really well together and

265
00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:08,050
have clear established ways of
working and that sort of thing.

266
00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,380
So there's pluses and
minuses about those things.

267
00:17:10,410 --> 00:17:14,500
And I think we're trying to figure out
what's the balance of the most pro.

268
00:17:14,530 --> 00:17:16,240
Right.

269
00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:25,010
Looking forward, I was just mentioning,
this is a great time to grow.

270
00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:26,640
We're coming up on the fourth and second

271
00:17:26,670 --> 00:17:30,920
quarter of the best growth
across the board for agencies that I've

272
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:34,980
seen in the last ten years
being in this space.

273
00:17:35,010 --> 00:17:40,010
But staffing for that is
a challenge at the same time.

274
00:17:40,040 --> 00:17:42,460
That's part of where you're spending some

275
00:17:42,490 --> 00:17:47,810
of your time now, but kind of inclusive of
that and other priorities you're looking

276
00:17:47,840 --> 00:17:50,770
forward to what is the
end of 2021 look like?

277
00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,530
What does 2022 look like for the agency?

278
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:57,500
What are some of the big targets
that you guys have as a firm?

279
00:17:57,530 --> 00:17:58,290
Yeah.

280
00:17:58,320 --> 00:18:04,290
I think recruiting has definitely
been a big one for most of this year.

281
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:10,180
I think coming out of last year, that was
pretty uncertain.

282
00:18:10,210 --> 00:18:12,700
We were sort of hunkered down and just

283
00:18:12,730 --> 00:18:16,570
making do with what we had
and figuring it out.

284
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,940
And then the beginning of the year hit and

285
00:18:19,970 --> 00:18:23,380
felt like we needed to
grow by 25% overnight.

286
00:18:23,410 --> 00:18:29,810
And so that's been a longer than usual
cycle to get new people in the door.

287
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:34,900
But we've just had maybe five or six new
people start in the last month or so,

288
00:18:34,930 --> 00:18:40,560
which is really exciting to have some
new faces and to be growing again.

289
00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:50,360
I think what that looks like is
we're really trying to

290
00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,620
I think we've been behind in some of the
things that we've been doing just because

291
00:18:53,640 --> 00:18:57,570
we haven't had the staff to be able to be
really Proactive in some of those ways.

292
00:18:57,600 --> 00:19:02,220
So I think it's getting more intentional
and more Proactive with each of our

293
00:19:02,250 --> 00:19:07,330
clients to be able to look forward
into what needs are not being met.

294
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:09,840
What opportunities are there to grow with

295
00:19:09,870 --> 00:19:14,420
those people now that we
have the capacity to do it?

296
00:19:14,450 --> 00:19:20,560
And one of our big focuses and sort of one
of our this might be going back to your

297
00:19:20,590 --> 00:19:25,900
other question about the evolution, as
well as one of the more intentional shifts

298
00:19:25,930 --> 00:19:31,940
that we've made in the last couple of
years was to start to move upstream from

299
00:19:31,970 --> 00:19:37,010
just a lot of creative content
production into the strategy realm.

300
00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:39,090
And so we've really built out that

301
00:19:39,120 --> 00:19:46,660
practice and those roles on our team
to be able to build the foundation that's

302
00:19:46,690 --> 00:19:51,900
needed to create content and any marketing
down the road, any sort of communication

303
00:19:51,930 --> 00:19:57,900
and understanding at the core of the
brand, what's their sort of

304
00:19:57,930 --> 00:20:03,380
purpose and values, and then
flowing that into a strong content

305
00:20:03,410 --> 00:20:07,050
strategy and then being able to
actually create content for them.

306
00:20:07,080 --> 00:20:10,250
So
some of the roles that we're hiring for

307
00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:14,700
right now, we're hiring a
couple of strategist roles.

308
00:20:14,730 --> 00:20:17,220
We're hiring for a new account director or

309
00:20:17,250 --> 00:20:21,010
maybe two and a new
video producer as well.

310
00:20:21,040 --> 00:20:22,640
So

311
00:20:23,120 --> 00:20:28,050
what is that when you say staffing up and
kind of going upstream

312
00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:32,420
and you mentioned Strategist roles, I'm
assuming that that's maybe strategy roles.

313
00:20:32,450 --> 00:20:36,800
What's the correlation or how
is you guys are scaling up?

314
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,810
How does that set up from an
org chart perspective, I guess.

315
00:20:39,840 --> 00:20:41,520
Do you have because typically, you'll see,

316
00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:45,570
like an account manager or Strategist is
kind of lead of X many accounts, and they

317
00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,250
either working in pods or shared
resources underneath them.

318
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,290
But you mentioned account directors.

319
00:20:51,320 --> 00:20:54,770
So is a strategist working across
more accounts to your accounts.

320
00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:59,220
What's an account director's role? How do
you kind of break down those distinctions?

321
00:20:59,250 --> 00:21:00,330
Yeah.

322
00:21:00,360 --> 00:21:02,220
Our account directors are kind of

323
00:21:02,250 --> 00:21:04,380
responsible for growth
in the relationship.

324
00:21:04,410 --> 00:21:07,180
So they're maintaining the relationship

325
00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:09,530
and doing some planning and
budgeting and things like that.

326
00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:11,700
But they're also really responsible for

327
00:21:11,730 --> 00:21:17,140
finding new opportunities and
understanding what else client I need.

328
00:21:17,170 --> 00:21:20,090
Our strategies are really focused on

329
00:21:20,120 --> 00:21:23,140
actually just building out the
strategy in any given engagement.

330
00:21:23,170 --> 00:21:26,090
So understanding

331
00:21:26,120 --> 00:21:32,330
where a brand is at the time, what gaps
might need to be filled in their strategy

332
00:21:32,360 --> 00:21:36,180
and being able to do the research
and make recommendations on that.

333
00:21:36,210 --> 00:21:41,040
But then we can go and kind of execute on
downstream and who coordinates an

334
00:21:41,070 --> 00:21:46,180
execution, usually a
producer role on our team.

335
00:21:46,210 --> 00:21:50,220
So that's sort of our
creative project manager.

336
00:21:50,250 --> 00:21:53,620
It looks a little bit different
on different work types.

337
00:21:53,650 --> 00:21:58,140
Some people are very tactical project
manager, and some are

338
00:21:58,170 --> 00:22:04,090
getting much more into the creative
and helping to guide the team in that.

339
00:22:04,120 --> 00:22:08,420
But, yeah, they kind of help run the show.
That's awesome.

340
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:10,380
Ross.
I'll look this up real quickly.

341
00:22:10,410 --> 00:22:11,660
The careers page.

342
00:22:11,690 --> 00:22:13,570
I'm trying to remember, but I think

343
00:22:13,600 --> 00:22:16,860
there's a link from the footer that takes
you to the careers page on the site.

344
00:22:16,890 --> 00:22:18,290
Yeah.
Column five.

345
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:20,330
Comjobs.
Cool.

346
00:22:20,360 --> 00:22:22,540
Okay.
That's even easier.

347
00:22:22,570 --> 00:22:23,140
Awesome.

348
00:22:23,170 --> 00:22:28,880
So if anyone's interested in opportunities
with column five actually just saw

349
00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:35,290
one person who you just hired
is from Erie, Pennsylvania.

350
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:39,780
Yeah.
So that's where I grew up.

351
00:22:39,810 --> 00:22:43,500
I think we just hired two
Pennsylvania people.

352
00:22:43,530 --> 00:22:45,200
Okay.

353
00:22:46,280 --> 00:22:48,860
We're infiltrating column five.

354
00:22:48,880 --> 00:22:50,050
So that's really happening.

355
00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,920
That's awesome.

356
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:58,330
Well, this has been really fun to
dig into the column five story.

357
00:22:58,360 --> 00:23:02,720
I think as you look at

358
00:23:02,880 --> 00:23:06,500
kind of closing out this year, one
question I've just started asking people,

359
00:23:06,530 --> 00:23:12,780
I did not prepare you for this at all,
but this is just kind of a fun question.

360
00:23:12,810 --> 00:23:14,980
Is around kind of year end

361
00:23:15,010 --> 00:23:18,420
expenses or like write offs
running to a lot of agencies.

362
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:22,050
This has come up a handful of times here
recently in conversations, folks, I have

363
00:23:22,080 --> 00:23:25,330
made more money than I've
ever made this year.

364
00:23:25,360 --> 00:23:26,660
Where are we running off? Do you have any

365
00:23:26,690 --> 00:23:32,800
fun end of year write offs that you'll
be paying for this year or past stories?

366
00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:36,020
I don't think so.

367
00:23:36,050 --> 00:23:38,380
Usually it's a balance because we have

368
00:23:38,410 --> 00:23:41,050
clients that are trying to
get rid of their budgets.

369
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,480
But sometimes we're playing the bank in

370
00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:50,940
that where we might
take it on the nose from the tax bill.

371
00:23:50,970 --> 00:23:55,120
But we'll take your money and
work through next year, right?

372
00:23:55,880 --> 00:24:00,020
But, yes, sometimes we're also trying

373
00:24:00,050 --> 00:24:03,660
to cash the checks until the
first of the year, for sure.

374
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:04,810
Yeah.
Nothing big.

375
00:24:04,840 --> 00:24:08,120
We started doing a little more

376
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,810
just in terms of we just got
everyone their own credit card.

377
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:16,140
So we're having a lot more

378
00:24:16,170 --> 00:24:22,240
kind of put a lot more toward kind of
connection and communication events.

379
00:24:22,270 --> 00:24:26,900
So a lot of times
we'll all order lunch from our own

380
00:24:26,930 --> 00:24:31,860
respective places while we do our town
hall meeting, or

381
00:24:31,880 --> 00:24:35,000
we'll have different celebratory type
events where everyone can just kind of

382
00:24:35,030 --> 00:24:38,330
spend their own meal budget
or that sort of thing.

383
00:24:38,360 --> 00:24:40,050
That's cool.

384
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:44,520
I'm obviously a tool nerd. Are you guys
using do you run your credit card through

385
00:24:44,540 --> 00:24:47,090
Brexit through Ramp or are
you using something else?

386
00:24:47,120 --> 00:24:49,900
We're using Divi Divi.
Okay.

387
00:24:49,930 --> 00:24:50,780
Yeah.

388
00:24:50,810 --> 00:24:55,570
We just switched over to them
earlier this year.

389
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:57,660
Makes sense.
That's awesome.

390
00:24:57,690 --> 00:24:59,460
It's been cool to see that just the

391
00:24:59,490 --> 00:25:03,000
business credit card space
changed the last couple of years.

392
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,660
It was like Brex kind of burst on the
scene, and then all of a sudden, Debbie

393
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:10,460
was the next big one, and Ramp is just
raising absurd amount of money right now.

394
00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:13,020
So interesting to watch that space evolve.

395
00:25:13,050 --> 00:25:15,180
Yes, it definitely seems like a

396
00:25:15,210 --> 00:25:20,290
good evolution because I think it's been
messy for a while or a hard thing to do.

397
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,660
That's awesome, Ross. For folks who want
to connect with you or follow you online

398
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,050
outside of the column five site, is there
anywhere else we should point people?

399
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,290
I don't think so.

400
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,860
I'm not active early on social media,

401
00:25:31,890 --> 00:25:36,240
which is strange for a
person in my position, but.

402
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,520
That.

403
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:45,460
I have a couple of accounts, but don't use
much, but everything's really through.

404
00:25:45,490 --> 00:25:48,660
It's kind of my focus.
Awesome.

405
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:50,220
Cool.
We'll make sure all that stuff is in the

406
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:52,140
show notes, but I
appreciate you coming on.

407
00:25:52,160 --> 00:25:54,020
Being generous with your time.
This is a fun conversation.

408
00:25:54,050 --> 00:25:55,700
Thanks, Ross.
Thanks, Gray.

409
00:25:55,730 --> 00:25:57,320
Appreciate it.
Bye.