{ "version": "1.0.0", "segments": [ { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1.1999999", "endTime": "36.870003", "body": "Olas Media. The typical profile, the anatomy of narcissist also involves the idea that beneath all of that, underneath that mask of of arrogance and self importance is really a very insecure person. And that's what separates that person from something more serious sociopathy or somebody that is a psychopath. What's similar to both, and you could say this about a mild sociopath as well as an overt narcissist, is that they both have some characteristics that are similar. They both lack empathy for others." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "36.870003", "endTime": "52.325", "body": "They're both very charismatic and they can both be very, very charming. They seem like, you know, good people in the beginning. They both have a poor sense of insight. And then both of them are prone to, some kind of addiction, usually drug or alcohol addiction." }, { "speaker": "Voiceover", "startTime": "56.98", "endTime": "61.859997", "body": "Welcome to the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel with John and Padilla." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "64.625", "endTime": "70.145", "body": "Well, welcome to the show, Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel. Hi, John, my cohost." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "70.145", "endTime": "71.985", "body": "Hi, Padideh. How are you? Good to see you." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "71.985", "endTime": "74.704994", "body": "And it's gorgeous in San Diego already this morning." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "75.024994", "endTime": "77.799995", "body": "It's always nice there in Cali. Jealous Yes. Of" }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "79.4", "endTime": "81.32", "body": "Well, you gotta come visit. That's the thing." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "81.32", "endTime": "83.56", "body": "I'll do that. It's time. It's time." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "83.56", "endTime": "86.759995", "body": "It's Well, good to see you. Good to see you. We had" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "86.759995", "endTime": "88.04", "body": "an amazing guest today." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "88.52", "endTime": "108.829994", "body": "I know. I'm so excited because he's actually my friend too. So yes, even better. So I wanted to introduce our listeners to our guest speaker today, who is John Tsilimparis. And the topic today is the anatomy of a narcissist." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "108.829994", "endTime": "118.909996", "body": "And John is a licensed marriage and family psychotherapist in Los Angeles, California. And we're really excited to have you, John." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "118.909996", "endTime": "119.71", "body": "John, welcome." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "120.305", "endTime": "124.625", "body": "Thank you very much. And the weather here in Los Angeles is beautiful. So just so you know." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "124.785", "endTime": "137.12001", "body": "Really jealous. You guys get earthquakes, though. So it's hit or miss, I think, isn't it? So actually, I shouldn't say that we've had two earthquakes here in Georgia in the last month. Right." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "138.4", "endTime": "143.2", "body": "Earthquakes and traffic is what we have to put up with. We're gonna do" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "143.2", "endTime": "143.52", "body": "for the" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "143.52", "endTime": "144.96", "body": "traffic It's worth it. The weather's nice." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "145.825", "endTime": "158.465", "body": "So John, you're a marriage and family psychotherapist. How did you get involved in that? That sounds like a difficult job getting between two people who are often fighting." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "159.82", "endTime": "194.71", "body": "Well, the license is an LMFT, licensed marriage and family therapist. But over the years I've done less family work, more couples work, and more individual work. So I work with a lot of people that have anxiety disorders, depression, addiction. So I still see some families, but it's mainly been those particular diagnoses one on one. But I've always had people that have had tendencies, as we're going to discuss for narcissistic behavior, as well as, you know, other characterological disorders." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "194.71", "endTime": "213.91501", "body": "I would imagine that as you drill down into what's really going on in a situation, perhaps between between a couple and one may be ridiculously depressed or anxiety. I I would guess that that narcissism may be the cause of that somewhere along the way in a lot of your work, I would think." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "215.07999", "endTime": "219.07999", "body": "Sometimes, yeah. And we can talk about the different gradations and the" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "219.07999", "endTime": "219.88", "body": "sort" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "220.76", "endTime": "238.335", "body": "of the different types that we see. You you too, I know have experienced the intensity of the type on the extreme end. I sort of get more of the lower end, the covert types of narcissistic tendencies as we'll discuss, as well as somewhere in the middle of the road." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "238.97499", "endTime": "250.92", "body": "I want to ask, what made you choose this field? Because I know as a divorce attorney, a lot of people ask me that. They're like, Why on God's always" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "251.0", "endTime": "252.04", "body": "say that all the time." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "252.04", "endTime": "282.23", "body": "And John, my co host asked me that all the time. And it's something I literally fell into right after law school. And so it just stuck with me and I love what I do because I get to help a lot of families. And the cases that I enjoy the most are the sexual abuse cases of the children where I can protect the child from visitation with one of the parents that's committed this heinous crime on the child. Felony." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "282.47", "endTime": "289.23502", "body": "Yes, felony. Felony. But how did you, John, choose this field?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "290.11502", "endTime": "339.4", "body": "Well, I was in psychotherapy for myself for many years in my 20s. I didn't get my stuff together until I was in my mid thirties. And I worked with a therapist that was brilliant in New York and I still talk to her and I started to realize that, you know, all the growth that I was seeing and all the changes that I was making was miraculous to me because I was really in a bad way at the time. And so I started to feel little by little, it took me a long time to get it together, but that I wanted to do this work and mainly to help people to create, you know, an environment for people to be able to be, you know, open and honest and feel good about, you know, their mental health conditions and, you know, kind of destigmatize mental illness stigma. I kind of became an advocate for that." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "339.82498", "endTime": "350.305", "body": "And I thought, you know, if I'm a therapist, I can do a lot for people and also, you know, make a living as well, too. So it all sort of came together at once. Awesome. I enjoy it." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "350.54498", "endTime": "352.22498", "body": "Long have you been at it? How long have" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "352.22498", "endTime": "367.295", "body": "you been doing it now? Oh, I've been at it for now almost thirty one years. So I'm a little burnt out, but I still enjoy helping people. I just have a reduced practice. I don't work as much and am actually publishing a book right now." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "367.295", "endTime": "373.53503", "body": "So I'm more focused on writing. But if you want to jump into narcissism, I'm ready because I've got it" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "373.375", "endTime": "397.345", "body": "I right on the tip of my was thinking about the thirty one years going back. And, you know, I was married for almost thirty years. And thirty years ago, narcissism kinda wasn't a thing so much in in the in the cycle not that, as I understand, there it it does have roots in a history that goes back probably till the early nineteen hundreds. But as far as it being a thing, it's kind of a more recent diagnosis." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "398.145", "endTime": "443.13", "body": "It's true. And, you know, this is an interesting thing to know before I jump into this, is that, you know, the word shrink, the way we call psychotherapist shrinks, you know, that came from somewhere. Wasn't, you know, it isn't the old tale that the shrink comes from, you know, sort of a derogatory term where, you know, they're referring to, you know, some old primal, some old tribes shrinking heads to impress their enemies. It actually comes from early Freudian ideology where a lot of patients that he was seeing had big egos. So his job was to shrink the ego, which is along the same lines of what we're talking about." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "443.13", "endTime": "460.04498", "body": "These days, it's really more about the shrink tries to shrink people's problems down the side. So it's a little different now, but that's where that comes from. So it's all relevant. But here's the thing about narcissism. And remember, this is such a big subject and I tend to ramble." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "460.04498", "endTime": "481.155", "body": "So please stop me whenever you have a question, but it's such a broad subject. So hopefully we'll get it all in an hour. But remember, psychiatry relies heavily on the subjective. It's not an exact science. So sometimes diagnosing somebody with, let's say, clinical narcissistic personality disorder is difficult to do." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "481.39502", "endTime": "513.255", "body": "Most personality disorders, and there's many of them, the characterological ones, they exist on a spectrum and it's never a measured absolute because it's not a continuum. So for example, healthy narcissism is a good thing. The two of you and hopefully me too. In other words, it's good to love yourself and learn to be proud of who you are and what you've achieved. The reality is we all fall somewhere between you know, this selflessness as well as being grandiose." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "513.255", "endTime": "549.445", "body": "We all do that. Somewhere in the middle is obviously where we want to be. But having said that, because it's not an exact science, and I was talking to Patty about this last week, is that sometimes narcissism gets unfairly used too loosely. There are people that have narcissistic tendencies, but they're not necessarily the full blown characteristics that you see. So sometimes narcissism is used sort of as a catchall cookie cutter phrase for somebody that's being selfish or acting unreasonable and maybe for self preservation." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "549.89", "endTime": "571.865", "body": "You you two know divorce well. So, you know, when there's divorce, there's lots of bad feelings. People feel jilted, they feel angry, they feel upset, they feel scared. And so they put up a wall and they kind of, you know, go into protection mode. And sometimes that behavior seems like a narcissism and it's used a little too loosely." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "572.02496", "endTime": "577.545", "body": "So that begs the question then, what is narcissism from your perspective?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "577.785", "endTime": "600.245", "body": "Okay. Remember, there's healthy narcissism that we just discussed. And then there is the extreme narcissism, what we call the malignant narcissism, the person that would actually get the diagnosis. And that's where we see a lot of arrogance. We see selfishness to the degree where it's really over the top." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "600.245", "endTime": "633.305", "body": "It's a mental health condition that possesses people to have an unreasonably high elevated sense of self, an elevated ego. They have a compulsive need to be admired and liked by people all the time. That's usually the goal. Then they also lack a degree of empathy. Hard for to have feelings for I'm sorry, it's hard for them to care for feelings of others because again, that wall is up and they come across as really, really difficult to work with." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "633.305", "endTime": "645.49", "body": "I mean, they have the subtlety of a battering ram, and we've all seen that. So those are the extremes, but it's really hard to work with. And as we all know, it's really hard to be married to someone like that." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "645.65", "endTime": "667.005", "body": "Yeah. And I would guess very difficult to diagnose. If I understand correctly, a lot of these people, they don't wanna be in your office. They they they they have a hard time understanding that absolutely anything is wrong with them. So, oftentimes, the the people who are victims are are the ones who may show up." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "667.52", "endTime": "684.985", "body": "If they if they can drag their their their narcissist spouse to the therapist that that's a possibility. But oftentimes these people don't think they've got anything wrong with them. So they'd rather just kinda stay away. And it's very difficult to diagnose somebody who's, not interested in a therapist." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "685.065", "endTime": "698.13", "body": "That's right. That's the other characteristic. Thanks for bringing that up, John, is that they usually lack a lot of insight. There isn't a lot of personal self reflection on that. It's difficult for them to put themselves in other people's shoes." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "698.13", "endTime": "713.74506", "body": "It's difficult for them to step outside of themselves and say, wow, I was really over the top the other day with my wife or my husband, and that really hurt them. Maybe I should pull back. There really is a lack of that kind of self knowledge, unfortunately." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "714.385", "endTime": "724.85", "body": "So how have you been able to and I imagine some of them have wound up in your in your office and and you sat with some of these people. How do you manage to diagnose them?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "726.20996", "endTime": "765.14", "body": "Well, again, in varying degrees, there are some people that can have some insight and do have a conscience underneath that. But remember, the the typical profile, the anatomy of a narcissist also involves the idea that beneath all of that, underneath that mask of arrogance and self importance is really a very insecure person. That's what separates that person from something more serious, which we can talk about later, which would be sociopathy or somebody that is a psychopath. Underneath the mask, there's a very insecure person. And so they really don't want to be seen in a negative light." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "765.255", "endTime": "797.165", "body": "Again, you have the overt narcissists that really don't care, they're really out there. But then you have the covert and maybe even below that, somebody that just has tendencies for narcissism. Since underneath that, there's a lot of insecurity and wanting to be liked by people, that's why we see it done very sort of under the radar indirectly. And some people say that's harder to work with because it's so covert and almost insidious in a way. So I try to get to that humanity in them." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "797.165", "endTime": "824.805", "body": "I try to get to that place in them where maybe in the past they got hurt or they were neglected by their parents, or maybe they were even abused because the profile is that, you know, a narcissist is made. You're not born a narcissist. Maybe some people can be, but you're not necessarily born it. You learn it through, through your social interactions. So I try to do that, as best I can, but it's really, really hard work and it takes a long time." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "825.045", "endTime": "860.36", "body": "Is do you find that most of this comes through trauma or is that is that the generally how how somebody becomes a narcissist or is there a genetic component to it? I I know, you know, you describe a covert narcissist and my my ex, I would would 100% put in that category. Very passive aggressive, disrespectful to a spouse. There there was evidence in with my, I mean, she's kinda carbon copy of her mother in some ways as well. So, I'm wondering, is there, is it always trauma?" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "860.36", "endTime": "868.84", "body": "Is there a genetic component to this or maybe that's socialization as well, growing up in a family with with somebody who might be a co covert narcissist too?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "868.84", "endTime": "888.445", "body": "The current ideology is that it's a nexus of both, that it there is some genetic disposition to that. But for the most part, hear it as socially learned. Yes, it could come from trauma. It could come from abuse. Hence that creates an ability for them to dissociate." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "888.51", "endTime": "921.66", "body": "If I grew up with a lot of trauma and I have to survive in the world and that trauma comes from other people, it's always going to be a decision that I have to make where I'm going to split. I'm going to create people that are healthy and people that are unsafe to me. And so if I don't know what I'm looking at or I feel threatened, and that's usually what starts all of this narcissistic behavior. If I feel threatened, then I'm going to dissociate, I'm going to put a wall up, because I don't want to feel that vulnerability that I felt when I was being abused." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "921.81995", "endTime": "954.88", "body": "And I imagine most of this stuff is done. If there is trauma in in a, in a narcissist, it's very young. And these coping mechanisms just follow them into adulthood. I've I've I've likened it to kinda kinda emotionally ceasing to develop. Like you get where you you hit the wall of trauma and you kinda stop there and those coping mechanisms of say a four year old are kinda as far as you get and they they wind up, into carrying into adulthood and these" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "954.88", "endTime": "956.16003", "body": "people" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "955.035", "endTime": "955.27496", "body": "are-" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "955.27496", "endTime": "984.10004", "body": "Correct. So when you go into threat response because someone's divorcing you or someone wants something from you or you're not gonna get what you want and you won't achieve your goals, or you think someone's gonna see you in a negative light, that's a threat to somebody with narcissistic tendencies. And so the wall will go up and then I will do everything in my power, even if I have to look unreasonably or despicably selfish. I'm just going to put the wall up because I got to take care of myself. I don't want to be vulnerable again." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "984.355", "endTime": "1016.645", "body": "I feel like narcissists, one thing that they all have in common is that they fear abandonment because like you said, this develops as a child. And so some trauma or abuse has happened in their life. And I find that the overarching thing with all narcissists is that they fear abandonment. And so they will almost get you to abandon them before they abandon you, right? So can you speak to that a little bit?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1016.725", "endTime": "1044.125", "body": "Yeah, I mean, it's almost like they act out what was done to them. So I was, you know, I was stonewalled, I was treated poorly. Maybe I lived with feeling abandoned all the time and it was really uncomfortable. That's something that they know, maybe in a twisted way, that person, their parents, or whoever that was role model that to them. The fear of abandonment is again another threat." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1044.125", "endTime": "1072.635", "body": "I'm glad you brought that up. Again, fear of humiliation, fear of seeing being being seen negatively, fear of being vulnerable, and fear of abandonment, will again bring up that threat response and will make me get into protection mode. So I'm more connected to I'm sorry, I'm more wired at that moment because maybe I've rewired myself. I'm more wired for protection instead of connection. I don't need connection." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1072.635", "endTime": "1073.755", "body": "I need protection." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1074.0751", "endTime": "1085.6799", "body": "Yeah. Alright. I gotta ask the loaded question here because I don't know whether you know. Padit has probably told you. I I manage and run a a Instagram channel called male victims of female narcissists." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1085.8401", "endTime": "1119.0801", "body": "And if you look at the material or I should say the abundance of material, written about narcissism, it's about 95% written by women about men. And, and which is why I started my channel. I I there was there are pieces of it that I just I just couldn't connect with, and here I was married to a covert narcissist and discovered that. So it from reading, you might think that that men are the only that that are are the are primarily the narcissists in the world. What's what's your experience with that?" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1119.0801", "endTime": "1123.4", "body": "Do do you have you you see fifty fifty? Do you what's your what do you think?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1123.9249", "endTime": "1158.1649", "body": "I have seen both. And but all the literature says that it's primarily men, and there's many reasons for that. But two of the reasons that I remember learning in school and also seeing that myself, After I would have somebody in my office that clearly showed those traits, I totally get curious. I look it up and I do the research because I want to help them, even though a tiger can't always change its stripes. Results oriented treatment for people who are, let's say, overt narcissists is poor, unfortunately." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1158.565", "endTime": "1201.38", "body": "But, remember, evolutionarily natural selection is going to favor dominance, you know, competitiveness and status seeking behavior. So, because men have, you know, typically occupied more powerful and desirable positions, it seems that, they have more permission to do that. Also, and cultural norms, I think, have not changed that much if you really think about it. I think it still lingers in the DNA. So because men are expected to take the lead, and, I think that they're expected to be more commanding, I think that the their behavior is less criticized for appearing exploitative and manipulative." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1201.38", "endTime": "1220.195", "body": "Mhmm. I it's it's interesting, you know, with the the men I I encounter they find my channel, and they're like, oh my god. Somebody who who actually kinda just speaks to men in narcissism. And as I I do primarily speak to men, my audience is is fifty fifty. So which is, is rather rather interesting as well." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1221.9199", "endTime": "1253.36", "body": "But I think there are a couple things with men too. Men are not good at acknowledging abuse. So they may be they may be being abused by a female narcissist, but but because it it it taps and and attacks their masculinity, they're not interested in having a conversation about that or even assenting to it. The the word, I've found that most men can embrace is kind of unmerited cruelty or undeserved cruelty. They they they identify with that, but they they aren't so good at identifying with, hey." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1253.36", "endTime": "1272.155", "body": "I'm being I'm being abused. And and that and and with the malignant thing too, it it kind of sets them aside where Yes. They they they perhaps appear, more as the the dominant narcissist and the dominant personality. I" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1272.395", "endTime": "1309.12", "body": "think that socially men feel this is a gross generalization, but I'm basing this on 30 of working this way. I think generally men still feel that there's more at stake for them to show vulnerability. That there's something powerful about being aggressive and sometimes being cruel that shows that I can be respected more. As we know, society is changing and we've made great strides on sort of equal leveling the playing field a little bit more than it's okay for men to have feelings. But I think that's still there." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1309.12", "endTime": "1309.36", "body": "So" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1309.6", "endTime": "1309.84", "body": "Yeah." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1309.84", "endTime": "1311.6", "body": "Society has a lot to blame for that." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1311.6", "endTime": "1340.2999", "body": "Yeah. Do you so this it kinda leads to another question perhaps, like, covert and and overt or malignant narcissists. Maybe you could give us a definition of that. And do you do you see that, like one one sex kinda tends towards covert and the other more towards over women more covert in their approach to it that you've found? Or, and maybe some definitions here between the two would help as well, you know, help us understand." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1340.2999", "endTime": "1360.1901", "body": "I've seen more of the overt in women, and I've seen more of the over sorry. The covert in women and more of the overt in men. The reasons that we just talked about now. Yeah. You know, the the the overt can sometimes look like sociopathy, you know, and there's a big difference between, again, another word that's used, you know, interchangeably." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1360.1901", "endTime": "1391.15", "body": "Sometimes people say, Oh my God, he's such a sociopath or such a narcissist. But sociopathy is a little bit different. It's where people actually get a pleasure out of being cruel to other people. And they tend to have a disregard for other people's rights and things like that. Now, overt narcissist has that similar, but their goal to maybe be cruel to somebody is not for pleasure." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1391.15", "endTime": "1411.8849", "body": "They do it because they have goals and they want to achieve goals, and they want to be liked by people. They want to be admired. So big difference there. But what's similar to both, and you could say this about a mild sociopath as well as an overt narcissist, is that they both have some characteristics that are similar. They both lack empathy for others." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1411.965", "endTime": "1426.44", "body": "And here's the interesting thing. They're both very charismatic and they can both be very, very charming. Yeah. So that's always a tricky thing because they seem like, you know, good people in the beginning. They both have a poor sense of insight, you know, self insight." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1426.68", "endTime": "1432.7349", "body": "And then both of them are prone to some kind of addiction, usually drug or alcohol addiction." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1432.895", "endTime": "1450.1", "body": "Interesting. It does seem like they're always kind of on display or like the public is their roam. They're constantly looking to make an impression publicly when privately, particularly in a in a situation with coverts, it can be a drastically different situation." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1450.66", "endTime": "1467.475", "body": "Right. But both coverts and overts, if we're gonna describe them that way, they both desperately need praise. That's really their goal. The praise is the goal and, of course, the sense of power manipulation, but a praise is the goal. With a sociopath, the the goal is not praise." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1467.475", "endTime": "1471.73", "body": "The goal is just pleasure. Yeah. That's terrible. That's true." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "1471.73", "endTime": "1497.6149", "body": "Yeah. Well, I can testify to the fact that having been married to a malignant narcissist for seven years, the word that you used to describe that was charm. And that's really what drew me in very early on the relationship. Was for me, in our relationship, was the charm, the love bombing. I was awaiting bar results." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "1497.615", "endTime": "1523.345", "body": "So I was like this poor, you know, law student and here comes like this knight in shining armor that, you know, pays for everything, buys me this gorgeous, you know, Christian Dior bag for court. You know? I mean, it it it was like $5,000 back in the day. Okay? So that charm, I think, is what a lot of people, you know, look at." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "1523.345", "endTime": "1538.04", "body": "Right? They kind of go, oh my gosh, this is like my knight in shining armor, especially women. And then you find out that that's like your the worst mistake you've ever made in your life, and you're gonna have, like, CPTSD for the rest of your life." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1538.52", "endTime": "1582.3351", "body": "Right. Or remember, I tend to think that some covert narcissists, I don't think start in relationships with any kind of malice goal. I think that when things start to get bad, relationships start to fall apart, again, the the specter of divorce is very scary for people because it involves all of those feelings and money and houses and kids and all that stuff. Those tendencies, might already have been there will come to the forefront because again, the threat response has been activated. The dissociation goes up, and then it's it's every man for himself." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1582.47", "endTime": "1599.245", "body": "I'm just gonna do whatever it takes to do that. And they exhibit that lack of empathy and it's just horrible. And then, Patty, you were probably gaslighted. You probably wrecked your self esteem for a little while. And that's the price that's paid to be on the other side of that." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "1599.3251", "endTime": "1626.66", "body": "Yes. I mean, I consider myself very I come from a good family, I'm an educated woman, but yeah, I mean, it definitely wrecked my self esteem for many, many years. And that leads sort of to the next question. Is therapy helpful for narcissists? Or is couples therapy, if you're married to one and you finally figure that out, is couples therapy, do you recommend that?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1627.3849", "endTime": "1648.6499", "body": "Well, I'll just give you what I do. And again, this is just my way of doing it. People have other ways of doing it. But whenever I see a couple, I always ask to speak to both of them on the phone first. And if I can hear from both of them that, you know, I do need to work on some things, and there are some things that I do that negatively contributes to the relationship." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1649.13", "endTime": "1664.745", "body": "And so then I've got an opening and maybe I hear a little bit of humility, and there's goodwill there. But if I only hear from one of them and I hear from the other one, you know, it's his or her problem. I'm not the one that has the issue. They're acting this way. They're bad." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1664.745", "endTime": "1691.085", "body": "They need to change. I don't. Then I question whether or not I'm actually going to help them. Other therapists will do it anyway because they think that in the room they can create the kind of environment, the kind of ecosystem ethos in there to be able to soften the man or the woman that has the narcissism. But I have found that it's really difficult that way because the person is in the other room with the person that triggers them." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1691.085", "endTime": "1710.0", "body": "So the wall goes up. So I'd rather work with them individually and try to soften, as I said before, that that really insecure person and try to bring that out a little bit in them. It's difficult to do. So the numbers are not great for people that have the overt narcissism. It's very difficult to treat." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1710.0", "endTime": "1711.6", "body": "Usually, it's a lifelong illness." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1712.0951", "endTime": "1715.295", "body": "Have you had success treating coverts at all?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1716.015", "endTime": "1751.2148", "body": "I have, yeah. As long as I can get to that place, as I mentioned, because I know that underneath that they do have that conscience. I've had some success with that, but usually it's more of coaching the other person, the victim of the narcissist to just let this one go, try to work as best you can to take care of yourself, get the best legal counsel you can start detaching, and as Patty knows this, start to build healthy, respectful boundaries. That's the only way you're going to come out of this alive." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "1751.2949", "endTime": "1765.0801", "body": "Now, do you recommend that if someone's married to a narcissist, whether it's malignant or covert, that they stay with them? Or are you saying you need to make your plan for escape?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1766.1649", "endTime": "1808.725", "body": "It depends on the person. Again, I'm so sorry not to give you a direct answer, but since we rely on this objective so much, it would have to be case by case. If I see that there's some, again, some goodwill on both sides and I hear good reasons for staying together, then I would encourage that. But most of the time with a sociopathic kind of person and somebody with an overt narcissistic personality, it's better to just move away and break up the marriage because it's probably better gonna be better for the kids if the two of you are not together and they're exposed to all of that negativity and all that fighting. And then there's a good chance that that person is not going to change." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1809.2051", "endTime": "1810.245", "body": "And that's scary, but" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1810.245", "endTime": "1847.35", "body": "it's Very interesting. Do you think that narcissists understand right from wrong? Because it it it it it it seems to be like the jury's out sometimes when you're encountering these people, the gaslighting and and just constant pretending. And I know with with coverts, I find it interesting that that publicly and like, publicly, they seem to know how to act. And then and then kinda turn that off, and privately, they they can be train wreck to whoever, whoever they might be, they might encounter in a family situation, which makes me wonder." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1847.35", "endTime": "1873.89", "body": "I go, okay. Well, they must know they must have some concept of right from wrong or at least or at least social they know social cues very very well. Yeah. But it it does seem like they have a really hard time distinguishing, right from wrong and perhaps may may throw out, maybe even discard a a a an assented to belief system, religious or otherwise, they they just throw that out and kinda do whatever takes place. So it's very hard to understand." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1873.89", "endTime": "1877.33", "body": "Do you do you think they know? Do you think they understand right from wrong?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1877.33", "endTime": "1881.985", "body": "It's a very good question, John. And again, sorry not to give you a direct answer, but I think I" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1881.985", "endTime": "1883.6649", "body": "appreciate any insight you have." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1883.745", "endTime": "1912.0349", "body": "That would be case by case. And it would also be, it depends on how much insight that person has. And here's the other thing. Here's another sort of measuring stick that I use. If I can sense that somebody can't experience difficult emotions like shame, remorse, and guilt, which helps us determine what's right and wrong, then not only is it difficult for that person to survive in society, but it's difficult for that person to be in a relationship." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1913.075", "endTime": "1943.0349", "body": "If they can't experience those emotions, it's going to be very difficult for them to understand right and wrong from the person that they are so upset about. There's so much blame and there's so much putting the onus on the other person, I mean the victim. I think that's really important. Psychopaths and sociopaths supposedly cannot experience shame, remorse, and guilt, but narcissists can, depending on the different level of the narcissism. Interesting." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1943.035", "endTime": "1955.6", "body": "Okay. Fascinating. Think about it. If the three of us for one day did not experience any shame, remorse or guilt, think of what we would do. I mean, we would not be nice to people." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1955.6", "endTime": "1971.695", "body": "We would be flipping people the bird when we drove, or maybe we do that already. We just wouldn't care because, you know, we care about how other people think of us. That's why we're nice to them. We care about what the cashier at the store thinks of us. That's why we're nice to them." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "1971.775", "endTime": "1986.55", "body": "You know, it's not always about altruism. It's about trying to commingle and coexist in society. And if you can't experience those three, it's very difficult to have a marriage like that. So I fear what those people are like with their children. So that's a whole another story." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "1986.55", "endTime": "2008.8401", "body": "With most healthy individuals, I I think there's this constant dialogue between your ears. You know, constantly going, is is there is there right from wrong? Is this right? You're you're you're trying to understand your own actions and your own behaviors and perceiving these kinds of things. And that particular mechanism, in narcissists seems to be broken." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2008.8401", "endTime": "2047.5249", "body": "I've I've often said that they they have a difficult time introspecting Yes. Completely. And if you don't introspect, you don't take the time to to question your behavior, what we wind up with is a lack of ability to go act appropriately. I think the most fascinating piece of it is with coverts where they seem to know how to do that publicly very very well and interact and maybe like you said earlier, they may be very charming and gregarious and full of life and might be a CEO, you know, for some people encounter these these folks in in work. So they they they seem to know how to how to act publicly." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2047.5249", "endTime": "2055.045", "body": "And then you've got this private window where where the people they're most intimate with, they're just the most cruel to." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2055.3699", "endTime": "2085.5552", "body": "Yeah. I have a little theory on that because I have seen this a lot. And, unfortunately, I saw that in one of my parents is that if if somebody if you love somebody and really deeply love them, like your kids and your wife and stuff, those people, because you love them so much, they can hurt you because you care about how they treat you. But people that you just met, people in public, work colleagues, you have no attachment to them. So you have nothing to lose." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2086.0898", "endTime": "2114.75", "body": "So you are generally nice to them. But the people that you love, I think the overt narcissist, I think is afraid to be too nice to them because that person can hurt them. So the the wall again goes up. I keep using that term, but I think that they want more respect from people that they love so that that person doesn't hurt them. That's that fear abandonment that Patty was talking about." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2114.75", "endTime": "2136.105", "body": "Yeah. Even if it's bad behavior. And, you know, the fear of going back to the fear of abandonment thing, I'd I'd always felt like, I was being tested. Like like, they there's at some level, they expected to be abandoned somewhere along the way and constantly pushing buttons to see which button, creates abandonment and almost as though they're preparing for that in some capacity." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2137.32", "endTime": "2163.505", "body": "Yeah, exactly. I don't fear abandonment, let's say, from people that I just met because there's no attachment. There's no investment, but I will fear abandonment from people that I love because maybe my history has dictated that for me. So I tend to think more that it's more of a socially learned experience, than it is a genetic thing, but we have no exact on that. We have no chicken or egg on that." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2163.505", "endTime": "2186.135", "body": "Mhmm. It'd be let's say you you had a narcissist in your office that you know, somebody who has pretty significant narcissistic tendencies. For them to develop that internal dialogue, that introspection is probably not an easy thing. You're trying to catch somebody up from three and a half or four years old to 35. That's a lot to learn." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2186.695", "endTime": "2193.87", "body": "When other people have experienced that and and kind of naturally have developed those skills, it's gotta be difficult to to go create them." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2194.03", "endTime": "2194.51", "body": "Yes." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2194.51", "endTime": "2206.1099", "body": "Give somebody the insight that they they okay. You stop developing it for, and and here, you're you're 35, and there's there's a gap here we need to go traverse and as quickly as possible. Those skills have gotta be difficult" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2205.855", "endTime": "2235.99", "body": "to learn. That's a very, very powerful, very tightly bolted, well intact defense mechanism. That's another way you can look at this disability to dissociate from what other people think and feel, especially when you feel threatened, is that it's a defense mechanism. It's a system that used to survive in the world. And unfortunately, when it's up and it's working, it comes across as really cruel to other people." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2235.99", "endTime": "2259.39", "body": "So yeah, it's difficult to get somebody to start to dilute that guard and be able to feel safe being vulnerable with others. And a narcissistic personality disorder does not want to be vulnerable. It takes a lot of strength to be vulnerable with others. If you didn't know how to do that as a kid, because you had to learn to dissociate, there's no reason to do it as an adult. Why?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2259.39", "endTime": "2280.83", "body": "It's been working so far. Also, the other thing is, is somebody that's narcissistic tends to realize that, you know what? I've gotten some results here. You know, maybe I've advanced in my work and I've worked up the corporate ladder. I have a lot of success because I'm so dogged about it, because I'm so concerned about, things falling apart." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2280.83", "endTime": "2292.59", "body": "And so my attention to detail and my strong work ethic and my maybe strategic distrust of others has brought me good results. So there's no reason for me to let that go." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2292.6702", "endTime": "2316.6602", "body": "Yeah. It does it does seem to be a coping mechanism and and perhaps even not so dissimilar from addiction, that the addiction for a narcissist may be may just be denial, where they're trying to cope, and that's their that's their strategy. That's something they they return to to continue to cope with the world where somebody else may choose alcohol or substance abuse or what insert in your favorite addiction here." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2316.9001", "endTime": "2326.625", "body": "You know, another way to look at it is I was telling Patty this last week too. You know you know the the expression, the tip of the iceberg. Right? Sure. It's very cliche, everybody uses it, but this works here." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2326.625", "endTime": "2367.48", "body": "So the tip above the water is very small, right? And underneath that, there's something huge. So if you look at somebody with narcissistic tendencies, the tip of the iceberg is gonna be anger, appearing selfish, maybe a little bit arrogant, having a lack of empathy, inflated ego. But underneath that, sort of the driving force underneath that mask is fear and hurt from the past, maybe an impoverished history of not belonging in school or getting bullied, but it usually comes from the parents and maybe even siblings. And so that hurt and fear under there is so uncomfortable to feel." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2367.48", "endTime": "2382.415", "body": "And it's so maybe more for men than women, so unbecoming, so unmanly that, we only see the tip. You don't see the big stuff below, which never gets. And the fear of abandonment is below there too, to Patty's point. So we never get to that. We never see that." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "2382.655", "endTime": "2403.9302", "body": "Well, we see it on, our social media. Sometimes people say, to your point, this person is so broken and hurt from the past. Should I fix it? Can I be their savior? And when they say that to me as a divorce attorney, you know, listen, people think divorce attorneys want people to get divorced." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "2403.9302", "endTime": "2419.255", "body": "We really don't. Like, most of the divorce attorneys I know, John, they're, like, happily married, including myself. So it's like, no. This is not your job, you can never be a narcissist savior. What you can do is save yourself." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "2419.96", "endTime": "2441.465", "body": "Because if you don't save yourself, what's gonna happen is this person's gonna take you down like the Titanic, and there's gonna be one life life boat, and they're gonna be on it. Okay? And you're gonna be in the ocean you and your child. So, So that's sort of what I tell them. And then I say, go speak to someone like John, right?" }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "2441.465", "endTime": "2454.85", "body": "Like, you need to know that you're done with this person and you've hit rock bottom. Otherwise, they're going to continually bread crumb you and come back into your life because we know that narcissists love to do that." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2455.4102", "endTime": "2503.105", "body": "And they'll hoover you. You know the term hoovering, which is, you know, I'm gonna try to suck you back into that abusive cycle where I feel good and you feel bad because that's where I feel the most comfortable. But again, back to the Titanic, I know we talked about this a few weeks ago, but yeah, I tend to coach and treat more victims of narcissistic behavior than the actual narcissist because to John's point, they don't usually come into therapy. Continuing to wanting to change that person and hoping that they'll change and maybe I can fix them and rescue them is literally like watching the Leonardo DiCaprio movie Titanic over and over again and hoping the ship doesn't sink. So get out in a way that, is, you know, beneficial for you." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2503.105", "endTime": "2520.785", "body": "It isn't just get out immediately. I mean, you gotta plan it. You've gotta like really, really find good counsel and find all the supports in your life that you need. And, and it's it's the best thing for them because this is not something that they've done. Maybe all of their relationships were based on attachment." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2520.785", "endTime": "2528.065", "body": "You wonder why people stay in that relationship for so long. Are they stupid? They're not. Are they unintelligent? They're not." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2528.065", "endTime": "2547.605", "body": "Do they lack insight? Maybe a little bit, but I think it's more about it being the power of attachment. All human beings are designed to be attached to other people. That's what makes us procreate. So sometimes when we think that we still need to be with somebody, even if they're cruel and abusive to us, It's not that we want to be with that person." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2547.605", "endTime": "2564.92", "body": "It's that the attachment makes us feel like we need to stay with that person. Your job, Hattie, and my job is to say, No, that's not the case. You can have a life beyond this person. And that's sometimes a hard sell, but it's easier to treat them than it is to treat the full blown narcissist." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2564.92", "endTime": "2591.01", "body": "Yeah. And some of those people are ultimately trauma bonded. You know, we go back to the Stockholm syndrome that where you you try to get them out, and they are so hyper attached perhaps to somebody who who is just hitting them with a sledgehammer emotionally. There there it's it's very hard it's very hard to emotionally separate. I I know from my own experience, I can remember the the narcissist therapist I I've been talking to." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2591.01", "endTime": "2630.1602", "body": "And I I I think let's go back to the, you know, men. I think men feel this need to go protect and to help and, you know, I I I know that I wanted desperately to to help my ex. I I was I I turned over absolutely every stone I could possibly turn over and I think as a husband, I felt that need and desire to lead our family through that but was but ultimately was incapable. So, I was having these conversations which are are were very painful and and littered with nothing but denial. And finally, my my therapist said, should have can you can you can you look back?" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2630.1602", "endTime": "2648.12", "body": "Can you point to a single conversation where where you begun to talk about these things, you began to address them? Can you can you point back to a single conversation that had any fruit where it actually worked? And I sat I remember sitting back and going, no. No. Not not not one." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2648.76", "endTime": "2676.58", "body": "And and she said, well, then then stop having them. And and that was the process for me of of of beginning to kind of detach, in the relationship. And it over a period of years, living almost single in some ways inside of a marriage, single emotionally in some ways inside of a marriage. It's very it's very hard for some people to detach. And some of these people that you find have to be in just tear a terrible way." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2676.58", "endTime": "2706.1702", "body": "I know I know some of the men I encounter and some of the people I encounter, in my, in my coaching are are suicidal. And here they're trying to navigate divorce with Padida or other people all at the same time and they're suicidal. They're so depressed. They're fiddle. They're riddled with anxiety and and PTSD as well and here they're trying to make these decisions and wade through these things just to get out and they are in the worst possible place they could be emotionally." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2706.73", "endTime": "2726.095", "body": "I have I have mothers whose whose sons are have have removed relationship with them and and and or or suicidal or yeah, I hear from all kinds of people who who witness this stuff. It's just train wreckage to the to the victim, and some of these people have" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2726.095", "endTime": "2726.415", "body": "to be in" }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2726.415", "endTime": "2728.9749", "body": "just horrible, horrible emotional state when you see them." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2729.4202", "endTime": "2756.6702", "body": "It's good for your listeners to to know this even though, they've probably read about this already. But, you know, the gaslighting does two things to the victim. One is it it makes them start to think that maybe it's their fault and they're doing something wrong. If I was prettier, taller, shorter, nicer, better body, whatever, worked more, whatever, he wouldn't act this way or she wouldn't act this way. So that's one." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2756.6702", "endTime": "2789.3003", "body": "And the other one is they become like the battered wife in the old days where they become convinced that they cannot survive without this person. And hence going back to that trauma bond. So if you have those two things working on you, because this manipulation of this gaslighting is so fierce and it's so persistent, then why would this person want to walk away from a relationship? So that's my job is to try to kind of deconstruct that belief system about that Yeah. Of them and start to, you know, consolidate their resources so that eventually they can leave that relationship." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2789.3801", "endTime": "2797.235", "body": "But it's terrifying to leave the relationship. They're so attached and they're so convinced that maybe it's their fault, and I will not survive. It's a scary thought. Yeah." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2797.875", "endTime": "2805.075", "body": "Really. And and, divorce is upending anyways. It it's horrifically complicated, and that's its own trauma in and of itself." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "2805.77", "endTime": "2843.9001", "body": "Right. I have, clients that tell me that the divorce is actually more traumatic because they actually got used to the abuse in the marriage and the divorce brings in like judges, it brings in opposing counsel, sometimes it brings in child custody evaluators. And really, like you said before, John, these people get triggered, right? Like they're literally in a courtroom with a judge that's on the stand and they're so triggered. And I've literally had to hold my client's hand under the table sometimes because they were shaking so much." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "2844.6848", "endTime": "2874.47", "body": "So this is what we're talking about. And a lot of people these days say, Oh, my ex was a narcissist. Oh, this person was a narcissist. And they use that word like, I think I said one time, M and M's, like, it's everywhere, like Coca Cola, it's everywhere, but it really isn't, right? And you know, as a clinician, right, that there's a lot of talk about narcissists in our world these days, but are all narcissists actual narcissists?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2875.645", "endTime": "2895.8599", "body": "Exactly. They're not. Many of them have narcissistic tendencies because they have been threatened and they're scared. Hence, the tip of the iceberg analogy. But let me just say another thing too, that remember, if I can't live without him or her, and it's my fault, what we call that is minimizing and rationalizing." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2895.8599", "endTime": "2911.275", "body": "So then you never really get to see your bottom. So my job, and maybe Patty, your job too, when you work with these people is to try to raise that bottom to say, you know what? He threw an object at you, or he said all these things, and he's been doing that for months and months and months. That's your bottom. That's it." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2911.275", "endTime": "2925.9702", "body": "You're done. So raising the bottom by them seeing that I have been minimizing it by saying, well, it's not really that bad or rationalizing it as well. He's really tired and he works hard, so he's allowed to be that way. Absolutely not. You're not allowed to be that way." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2925.9702", "endTime": "2939.4548", "body": "Everyone's allowed their anger, but how you express your anger is a different thing. You can express anything that's on your mind as long as you do it respectfully and in a very humanistic way. And that's what we don't see with these characterological disorders." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2939.4548", "endTime": "2959.5398", "body": "I've I've often said to people that when they they they talk to you about kind of, you know, the the the term narcissist, and it is it is almost pop culture ish. Yeah. I mean, Taylor Swift talks about covert narcissism in one of her songs. So there's there's beginning to be an awareness, I think. And, also, you have you have misuse." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2959.5398", "endTime": "2966.4949", "body": "And I I you know, you might have narcissistic tendencies, but that's not necessarily the personality disorder." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2966.4949", "endTime": "2966.895", "body": "Correct." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "2966.895", "endTime": "2981.1802", "body": "And there's there's you know, when we talk about narcissists here, we're talking about people who have a genuine personality disorder and and are in grave state with their, with That's right. Generally with their the the people they interact with most intimately." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "2981.1802", "endTime": "3008.45", "body": "I have a slogan where you never really get to know somebody until you divorce them because divorce brings out the And worst in you can not be a characterologically disordered person with NPD. But again, the divorce, as Patty said, is one of the most stressful things that humans can go through. And so the behavior will appear to be that way because you're hurt and you're trying to protect yourself. It doesn't mean that that's a narcissist." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "3008.61", "endTime": "3018.45", "body": "Yeah. So can you kind of help us understand the difference perhaps between a narcissist and a sociopath and a psychopath? And can you can you sort that through for us?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3018.7551", "endTime": "3066.02", "body": "So as we discussed before, sociopaths tend to not seek praise and, not seek necessarily attention and admiration from others and don't necessarily have underneath that iceberg, you know, this this low grade of hurt and fear. Sociopaths tend to enjoy inflicting pain on others and hence have very little regard for other people's feelings and their rights. Narcissists tend to have a little more of a conscience. They tend to have the ability to experience empathy for others unless you're the over type. And so their goal is more to achieve goals." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3066.5", "endTime": "3083.805", "body": "And so if I have to be cruel to achieve goals, then so be it. It's kinda like that. They don't necessarily enjoy it, but they have their eyes on the prize, and that's what drives them. Psychopaths are different. Those are people that, you know, are like psychotic, and those people are supposedly born." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3083.9648", "endTime": "3112.615", "body": "They have some kind of deficiency in the brain, in the neurotransmitters that regulates mood and affect, and they are incapable of experiencing shame, remorse, and guilt. So those people are not fit for society and where they don't have necessarily that charismatic way of being that sort of like charming way of being that narcissists and sociopaths can. The psychopath is unable to do that. They're just out of control. And most of the time they should be in jail." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3114.05", "endTime": "3114.45", "body": "Wow." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "3114.45", "endTime": "3138.7551", "body": "Wow. So I just want to wrap this up by thanking you, John, for being our guests. This was wonderful. I know it's going to help so many people and give people clarity that they need, right? And so, you know, with all of our guests, want to have one book recommendation because I'm an avid book reader." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "3139.5999", "endTime": "3167.095", "body": "Obviously, as an attorney, I've read many, many hundreds of thousands of books, okay, in my lifetime. So I wanted to ask you, what is one book recommendation that you suggest to our listeners? Because not everyone can afford someone like yourself and not everyone is going through a divorce. Sometimes they're in a relationship with someone and they just want to read more about this and either to get help or learn more about narcissistic." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3167.03", "endTime": "3206.2", "body": "Can I say one other thing about victims of narcissistic personality disorder? So if you're seeking therapy for that, try to remember that the therapy should not be about how I can change this person, how I can be better with this person, or how I can save my marriage. It should be more about how can I rebuild my self esteem, which I had before this? How can I consolidate my resources and try to expand my support system so that when I do leave, I feel a little bit safer and try to focus on building boundaries that will be good for you to be able to build those boundaries in future relationships as well? It's like, this is ground zero." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3206.2", "endTime": "3221.7651", "body": "This is where the rubber meets the road right here. You're in a place where you're probably gonna need to make a decision and taking care of yourself and building yourself back up is much more important than trying to figure out this other person. So, and it can be done. It's very treatable. All right." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3221.7651", "endTime": "3241.175", "body": "So books, There are so many and it's hard to pick one, but there's one that I like in particular. It's called It's Not You, which is very sort of like complimentary to what we talked about today. And that's Doctor. Ramani Durvasula. It's D U R V A S U L A." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3241.175", "endTime": "3255.87", "body": "That's a good book. And then there's another one called Rethinking Narcissism, which looks at it in many, many different angles. And that's by Craig Malkin, M A L K I N. They're both pretty good books." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "3256.51", "endTime": "3265.95", "body": "Awesome. So how can people be in touch with you? We're aware that people are gonna see this and and listen to it for probably years. So how how can they be in touch with you?" }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3265.95", "endTime": "3289.28", "body": "So on Instagram, it would be at the letter j, my first name, John, and then my last name, t s I l I m p a r I s. So at jsilimparis. There's also the TikTok. I call it sort of the TikTok mania because it's hard to put it down. And that's at and then my full name, John Tsilimparis." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3289.28", "endTime": "3295.2", "body": "Or you can go to my webpage, which is johnsilimparis.com." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "3296.555", "endTime": "3309.6748", "body": "I know you're really excited about your, book, your second book that you're publishing. We've talked a lot about that. Tell our audience a little bit about the book that you're publishing, and, that's so exciting." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3310.1301", "endTime": "3361.635", "body": "Thanks. I have a book that I published a few years ago, called Retrain Your Anxious Brain, which is, about, you know, helping people with stress and anxiety and dealing with life's ups and downs a little bit better. But the book that's coming out next year is also about building resilience for grief and anxiety and depression. But this one's a little bit different. This is about trying to find the aesthetic in your grief, trying to flip the script on general bereavement in mourning and trying to find beauty in your sadness, trying to find constructive aching in your sadness and trying to be more comfortable with being wounded, like looking at it as a positive wounding, as opposed to thinking that it's something that you need to move away from and run away from." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3361.635", "endTime": "3365.0", "body": "So it's a little bit different. It'll be out in June." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "3365.0", "endTime": "3366.4402", "body": "Oh, I'm so excited." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "3366.68", "endTime": "3395.05", "body": "Thanks so much for coming today. Pleasure to meet you today and and really treasure your insight and what wonderful conversation. And hopefully, you know, our goal here at the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is is not just to to give insight, but also to to help bring healing. And I I really do think you've given us a great picture of kind of, what narcissism is. And there there's a there are a host of people out there, I believe, that are that are in narcissistic relationships, and they just don't know." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "3395.61", "endTime": "3419.23", "body": "And, I I really do think that things like this help bring awareness to people where the lights go off. I know I had a moment like that where I I read something that somebody wrote, I'm like, my gosh. This is what I've been dealing with all these years. And, and hopefully, you know, my hope, and I know Padida's as well, is that somebody would would hear this one day and realize and begin this path to healing like you described. That's our hope." }, { "speaker": "John Tsilimparis", "startTime": "3419.47", "endTime": "3420.19", "body": "Thank you." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "3420.19", "endTime": "3421.47", "body": "Thank you again, John." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "3421.47", "endTime": "3429.39", "body": "Yeah. Thank you so much. Padida, great time as always. And John, thank you so much for visiting us. And Padida, until next time." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "3430.1099", "endTime": "3431.95", "body": "This is the Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel." }, { "speaker": "Padideh Jafari", "startTime": "3432.585", "endTime": "3433.385", "body": "Bye bye." }, { "speaker": "Padideh", "startTime": "3433.385", "endTime": "3434.665", "body": "Take care. So long." }, { "speaker": "Voiceover", "startTime": "3445.14", "endTime": "3465.635", "body": "Podcasts. To hear other episodes or read the associated blogs, visit olasmedia.com and be sure to follow us on Instagram with the handle narc. Podcast. The guest views, thoughts and opinions expressed are their own. The information presented is for general information purposes only and is not intended to be legal advice." }, { "speaker": "Voiceover", "startTime": "3466.035", "endTime": "3480.88", "body": "The co hosts are not licensed therapists. Seek professional help as information is often state specific. The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel is produced in studios in San Diego, California and Tijuana Baja, California. OLAS Media is an IVC media company." } ] }