www.karenkanas.com - Ammar's wife's website
FULL TRANSCRIPT (unedited):
2 (10s):
And I'm Gina <inaudible>. We went to theater school
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Together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later,
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We're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all
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Theater school. And you will too. Are we famous yet?
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Frog into my, my morning frog out of my throat yet. How you doing? I am. Wow. I have a lot to talk to you about, oh, I
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Half expected you to have red hair this morning.
2 (49s):
Oh, do you think I should. I okay. But like, did you see the picture? I put a run Lola run. I mean, that might be a little hard to maintain.
1 (59s):
It's super hard to make, like you'll, you'll have to be the salon and read six weeks at least, or four weeks for root touch-up. But I mean, I personally think the routes coming in would look cool, but wow. Yeah,
2 (1m 13s):
The whole rally thing. Well, I'll keep you posted cause I, I definitely want to do something different, much different what's going on. Okay. So first thing I'll just get out of the way is for fun, because we're always trying to remember our classes and who taught and what gear we did, everything I ordered my transcript, which unfortunately does not have the names of your professors. Just, yeah, it just has the name of the class and my grades were fair, not great. Like I had a 3.5 or something like that, which I would have, I thought in my memory that I got really good grades in college, but they were really just pretty average.
2 (2m 1s):
But guess what my lowest grade was in
1 (2m 8s):
Was it, was it, well, the easy choice is add Colleen,
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My C my, my one and only see mine was an intro to psychology. I was talking to my husband about it and he goes, yeah, I got a low grade too. He's like, we were just basically saying, this is all too real. We're not ready yet. I think
1 (2m 40s):
That's a great observation by him.
2 (2m 44s):
See my whole areas. It's just hilarious. And then in other classes where I was sure, you know, I was hated like an alcohol use class in that I got A's so my God isn't that it's also subjective, like our, our experiences, something as subjective and then our memory about something totally changing. Only subjective as the years go by. Right.
1 (3m 7s):
It's not just subjective. It's yeah. It's very like mutating subjects, right? Yeah. That's crazy. Oh my God. So you ordered your transcript. Okay. Now you have a transcript
2 (3m 21s):
And guess what? Anybody can, it's 25 cents. Like if you have, if you haven't ordered, like you have a certain number, you can get in a certain period of time. And so your first one is 25 cents. You,
1 (3m 33s):
Anybody else want to have a transcript? You
2 (3m 36s):
Could relive your, your grades. Oh my gosh. Might find some surprises. Do you think you would find some surprises in your
1 (3m 42s):
I'm? Sure. I mean, I know for a fact that I, that I, I was supposed to drop a class, a, a non, obviously non theater school class, and I never dropped it. So if you don't drop it, you get an F. So I got an F in, like, I want to say it was like sociology or something like that. And I almost didn't graduate because they thought, yeah. And so you can't, I knew it was like, I remember my last year, my senior year, I had to like, do all kinds of regular role. And the other thing is that I didn't do was one year, one quarter or something you had to like re up your financial aid and I didn't do that.
1 (4m 24s):
So I didn't pay for like a quarter. And they were like, yeah, you're, I'm so shocked. I graduated. I don't know what was happening. They were like, yeah, you have to pay.
2 (4m 35s):
I had to do some real tap dancing to my parents graduate.
1 (4m 39s):
Yeah, I remember that, but I don't. Yeah. I I'm sort of scared to look at the grades. I don't.
2 (4m 46s):
Yeah. I mean, whatever, it's like a grade and acting school is just kind of funny. It should probably be, and maybe at some schools it is pass, fail. It just should be pass, fail. Like you either got it. Or you didn't get it. You either write forth effort or you didn't. Right. So that's kind of, wow. Okay. And update on surprises. Because last week I was saying like, I'm open to surprise. And it worked, which is to say, I think pretty much not that like some big surprise came falling out of the sky, like is what, the thing that I was really after. But instead I did, I took my own advice and like pursued, doing something differently.
2 (5m 27s):
And on Saturday we ended up, I just on Friday night when Aaron came home, I said, I want to have fun tomorrow, but I've got to get out of this house. I've got to get out of this town. And so he searched up like fun things to do. And he found something which actually was terrible, but it didn't matter because it was different. And we, it was a car. It was, it, it was promoting itself as some like amazing fall festival with all this kind of stuff. And it was literally a carnival, like the Carney trucks. It's amazing.
1 (6m 7s):
Like, yeah. Right. Oh, well they had some good marketing.
2 (6m 11s):
Yeah, they sure did. Cause it was listed as the number one thing to do in my state this weekend, the state and the state and the state. But even, maybe it was a slow weekend and we had fun. Anyway, we had fun. We went to a town we've never been to, we spent time together. You know, it, it was fine. It was good. And more importantly, I feel like it, it just doing something like that and genders like, okay, what else can you do? What else? You know? So I think that, that was the important thing is that it opened me up to
1 (6m 43s):
Novelty. Did anyone else, did anyone get hurt on a ride?
2 (6m 48s):
No, but the whole time I was like, I bet this is going to be one of those times where one, we're one of these things just going to go flying off into the, so if you really want to call it,
1 (6m 58s):
If you really want to go down a crazy dark rabbit hole, like, okay, well I'm obsessed with fail videos fails. You know, if you watch carnival fails. Oh my God. And most of them are deadly. Thank God. But they're just like, where thing flies off. Or like, like a lot of times what you have is cell phones going crazy or birds like birds attacking people on rollercoasters is one of my favorite things to watch. It's not that the bird is attacking. It's at the bird is just trying to fucking fly. And it runs smack into a person on rollercoaster, the best thing you've ever seen.
1 (7m 38s):
But the sad thing is 90% of the time the bird dies, you know? But like, because the velocity, the force is so great, but it's pretty freaking funny. People are filming themselves usually like right then all of a sudden, a huge pigeon like common. So carnival fails is, is one thing where like someone's standing there like videotaping their friend on the tilt, a whirl or whatever the hell it is and a bolt or something goes with. And they're like, oh, that was a part of the ride. So
2 (8m 13s):
You're standing there as an adult. I mean, as a kid, you're just like, this is the most amazing thing ever. But as you're sitting there as an adult, you just can see like the hinges where things fold up into the, you know, and you're just like, this is just, we're just all hoping that nothing bad happens, right. Best you can do is cross your fingers and hope for the best. Right.
1 (8m 33s):
And the other thing is that I I'm obsessed with watching is those Slingshot videos. So some people pass out, pass out or like people's weaves fall, fly off and like, or, well, yeah, like people pass out, but I like when things fly off or when just people say really weird stuff or like, yeah. But those
2 (8m 55s):
Slingshots are horrible. They look horrible ever. I would never, of course, of course, where I'm sure many people have been slung right off into an alligator pit ever at the museum again. Oh, that's crazy. Okay. So the, the big O thing that changed for me since I last talked to you and I'm fighting the urge since yesterday to call you for the podcast, I haven't heard the podcast. Well, I wrote down the headline is I'm going to do this in a politic way organization on the brink of collapse, ALEKS new leadership to ensure its future spends next two years, undermining their, every effort says leadership.
2 (9m 40s):
We quit. I have quit the organization organization that I have dedicated a lot of hours to serving. And it happened. Yeah. It happened after a meeting last night that went left and it didn't even honestly, as these things, are, it didn't even go as left as it's gone. There's been times where it's gone so much further skew, but all of us just had it. And actually after our interview today, I have, we have an emergency meeting to talk about it, but my decision is made, I quit.
2 (10m 25s):
I fully quit. Like I'm, I'm happy to help transition or whatever. And yeah, that happened inside. Like how did you come to the, like what happened in, what have you? Yeah. So this is kind of like a combination, just like what I wanted to talk to you about. And then also what I want to run by you because, you know, I just wrote that blog post about like how I meant examining myself in relationships and how I sometimes in the past have just, you know, one day just up and left. And the first time I did that, that felt the way that actually this thing felt last night was when I broke up with my first boyfriend in high school, it was literally like I was asleep.
2 (11m 10s):
I shot up out of bed, like in a movie. And I said, I've got to break up with this guy. And I got my clothes on and I got in my car and I drove over to his house and I walked into his house. I didn't knock the door. I walked in the house, he was in the bathroom getting ready. I, I had a little box of his shit. I go here by, I walked, he's following help cheetah. What's the matter, what's the matter. And I left. I mean, we, we did speak after that. And actually I had a couple of really crazy incidents with him even like later in life when I ran into him as an adult. But, and you know, that was terrible of me to do that was terrible.
2 (11m 51s):
But now I understand that it was because I lacked the ability to say along the way I don't like this. And I don't like that. And just kind of kept putting up with it and putting up with it. And I think my big takeaway from how I conducted myself in this organization is that I put up with stuff and put up with stuff that I really should have found more backbone along the way to say, I don't like the way you're talking to me. I don't like the way you're treating me. And in fact, I had the group of people that I work with. It I'm basically the leader of, you know, they were constantly expressing to me that they felt really abused by this group. And I would validate that and listen to them and agree with them.
2 (12m 36s):
But then when it came time to going back to the group, I fell short of saying, this will not stand. You know what I mean? I never did that. I never put my foot down and said, this that's enough because I was trying to do it in this way that I feel you're kind of supposed to do as a leader of something you're supposed to keep a level head. And it's really, frankly, it's a lot like being a therapist, you take people's projections and you take their shit and you, and you're able to see, okay, this thing is about me. This thing is not about me. This is just you projecting your shit onto me and you try to like, keep it moving for.
2 (13m 17s):
Good. Great. And it's not that we never responded with, like, this is not a feedback. Yeah. But it, I mean, obviously it didn't work. It didn't get us to where we needed to go. So we ended the meeting yesterday. I stayed on and talked to my cohort. I said, you guys, I'm, I'm done. And there was seven of us and only four of us were, were talking after cause or five of us. So there was two people who had no idea, but, but four of us said, we're ready to, oh.
2 (13m 58s):
And I spent three hours last night writing a letter that just basically told the whole history and laid it out. Exactly why, you know? And I wrote it as like, we came to this decision. I don't know if we're coming to this decision because we have to have our meeting later and I just laid it all out. And I just said, you know, basically we're at cross purposes here. Like you asked us to do something that we are doing and you don't like the way we're doing it. So it's fundamentally not going to work out. Wow. I was all revved up. I stayed awake until two 30.
2 (14m 38s):
Sure. Yeah. I've been there got three hours of sleep. Holy shit. Feeling great. <inaudible>
1 (15m 0s):
Good for you. I mean, I think the other thing is like, yeah. I mean, I think that when things, something isn't working, yeah. I've always struggled with knowing when to, when to leave something and like when to, I never knew, okay. Like even stupid shit, like staying home, sick from school. So like, my mom always taught us, like, you never do that unless your like hand is falling off and even then you try to go. But so then in my adult life, when I never knew when was the time to listen to yourself?
1 (15m 43s):
Yeah. Or to call it quits. Yes. Right, right. To listen to myself or like, was that, and I always second guessed myself for a long time. And even like, like I remember having like a date, you know, with, with a friend or she was really like a mentor, like an authority figure. That's always when it gets really kicked up. And I didn't know, like if I was sick or just wasn't feeling off, should I cancel? Would they be mad at me? Would I, could I take care of myself? What did taking care of myself look like? Because sometimes, and people would say like, people would, I would ask for advice and they say, sometimes taking care of yourself means staying home. Sometimes it means pushed through a little bit.
1 (16m 25s):
I never knew what, how to do that. So I never had a gauge. So it sounds like you're learning finally to like, or like you're coming to the thing of like this, this is not right. This is not working for me. And, and, and I'm going to make a bold move and then I'm going to stick by that bold move. And also knowing that like, you know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a move that right. That you can back up that you feel done and that you don't need to ask for reassurance or like try to, but that you're done.
1 (17m 9s):
I mean, I think that's really great. I mean, I think it's part of being a self-actualized adult to know when something's over and, and why it's over and how to do it. Right. How to end it right by you for you versus like the right thing that people want you to do. Oh,
2 (17m 27s):
100% that, and that thing that you're describing about the way that we need to be able to differentiate when I'm just feeling avoidant versus when I really need to, that is such a crucial part of a person's development. And I can say, as a parent, it's pretty hard to teach because you're like, I don't know. Do you really feel sick or really just not want to go to school? Like it's, it's tricky.
1 (17m 56s):
I, I mean, I can't imagine doing that with someone else because I literally am just now learning at 46, how to do it with myself. So like, like I can't imagine being, because the second guessing it's so interesting. It's like, it's like my, my growing up, it was, yeah, it was literally like, you, you didn't ever, you always muscled through, but I guess the, the, the, and it's like, how do you know that muscling through is too much? What is the answer? Like, you're dead. Like, that's going to be how you found out. Like, I remember this and it wasn't just my parents.
1 (18m 38s):
Like I remember my aunts, my aunts had a cleaning business. Okay. My mom's sister and her and her wife, or at the time her girlfriend, they had a cleaning business. So they cleaned people's houses. And at the end of, I think it was, I don't know which some play I was in at the rescue. And it must have been, I think it had to be it wasn't yellow boat. So it had to be this other search for delicious. Anyway, I was really sick. And, you know, obviously we, we still do performances when we're sick. That's another thing that needs to change. Right. And they're trying to change people's trenches anyway, I'm sick as a dog and I I'm sick as a dog. And I, I had to schlep my shit from the Myrtle Ruskin.
1 (19m 19s):
And the next day I was supposed to clean houses with my aunt. Like I was helping her. She gave me like a part-time job, but I'm so sick. And the night before I call, I'm literally like, like I'm hacking up blood. It turned out I had pneumonia and I had to go to the, it, it was, it was crazy. But my aunt was so mad at me that I had to bail. She shamed me. She was like, I can't believe you let me down. I literally can't talk. And she's she? And you know, she was the adult and I was a young adult, but she was anyway, the point is it, wasn't just my parents. It's a whole thing of like, how could you leave us?
2 (19m 54s):
We're going to have to talk about this with Molly Smith, Metzler, who we're going to be talking to in like maybe next week or the week after who's the creator and showrunner of a major television series. That's based on a book because this theme comes up in that series. And it's, it's something related also to, I don't know. I don't really remember if you told me that your mom's family grew up with money or without money, but
1 (20m 21s):
Without with, with, and then without, so they, they had it in Columbia and they didn't have it here.
2 (20m 27s):
Yeah. So people without money, I mean, it's, it's true. The, the decision about muscling through it is really, usually one about survival. Like you don't have the option, but for people who are, you know, in our situation now, I mean, I think the only way you really learn that for yourself, whether you should stay in through or not is with experience of, well this time when I didn't feel like doing something, and then I did it, I felt better this time when I didn't feel like something doing something. And I did it, I felt worse. Like, and just trying to build up the data as to say, this is an example of a time, like just, just the ability to be able to at, at our age, we've had enough experience that we can think through almost any set of, you know, like, okay, well, if I go to this thing, like, I think you were talking about you, miles was at the hospital getting checked out for a possible recurrence of his cancer and you were doing a reading.
2 (21m 32s):
Oh, oh,
1 (21m 33s):
It was the worst. It was insane. I was in the chapel at the hospital trying to memorize lines for a fucking 10 minute play reading that was supposed to be on book. And then they told me it was off book. And then
2 (21m 46s):
You weren't getting paid for that. Wasn't going to advance your career in any way. Yeah. That's what I'm talking about. This is, and so the, the thing I really want to run by you is about like moments of clarity and really you can't force a moment of clarity it to me, or maybe you can, I can't, it just comes to you, you know, it just, it just comes to you for me, it comes to me in a moment and it just feels like on ambivalent, there's no question. This is what I have to do. This is what I can't do. This is what I can do. And I think the only way you get there is with time.
1 (22m 25s):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's time and I think you're right. I think it's like trying it out. Like I tried this, it went horribly wrong or I tried this and yeah. And also, yeah, I think right there was this thing too, of like, there's also this thing I feel, and maybe this also goes back to the, the working class. I don't know what it is, but it's like people wanting to end things the quote right. Way. So like my, my mom was always big on like, you know, and my dad about like, having a conversation, like having to sit down with people and say, Hey, this is how I feel.
1 (23m 11s):
And like, it was a cop-out to like send an email or a cop-out to, but that's also kind of, garbagy like, people am things the way they can end them in the moment. And they, I don't know, I don't hold it against people for ending things the way. Look, it, would it be great if we could have closure and like, stuff like that. But like, what if, I don't know, I'm just like all for now, people doing things the way that they feel like in the moment they need to do them. Like, I don't, like I used to get into, like, I remember like leaving a sponsor relationship and she was so she was not well in my view.
1 (23m 53s):
And she was, and I've sent her an email and she really wanted to have a sit down. And yes, there's two things are true. Like, I was really scared to sit down with her and tell her, like, I think you're fucked up and this isn't working for me or whatever, but I also didn't feel safe enough to do that.
2 (24m 10s):
Yeah. Yes. That's. The other thing is if we lived in a world where it was a given that everybody was being forthright and honest and was themselves in constant dialogue about their strengths and weaknesses, and was B you know, if we lived in a world where everybody was operating from a basic level of like honesty and good intentions, then this problem would be much easier to these types of problems would be much easier to resolve because you'd say, well, I mean, it just would be a given, like, of course nobody would want to see me suffering to do.
2 (24m 51s):
Of course, they'd rather, you know, but you can't, that's not the situation in most cases. So you literally can only rely on your own understanding of yourself. Right.
1 (25m 1s):
Different context. Right. And I know that there's, there's the there that looking back, I wish I had ended things differently in a lot of different ways, but I did what I, I did what I could, you know, I did really could, but I just remember it being like my, my dad being like, you know, you should really sit down with them and talk to them and being like, you know, why like, okay, I, I hear what you're saying. So when people, yeah. I think, I think being willing to have conversations and having hard will being willing and open and available to having hard conversations with people is so much more difficult than people make it out to be.
1 (25m 41s):
Because like you're saying, it takes, it has all it takes. It's all these things come into play. It's not just like, I'm going to be a mature adult and do this the right way. It's like, what am I willing to have? What can I handle? You know,
2 (25m 55s):
W what can I handle? And, you know, in some cases, if an issue is really contentious, it becomes, you know, if I sit down with this person and really try to, they might actually further harm me. Like, I I've already had that experience with some people in this group that where I've decided, okay, the approach is I have to call this person. Right. I have to say, Hey, we're, you know, not seeing eye to eye. And a couple of times when I did that, it turned out fine. Right. And a couple of times when I did that, I thought,
1 (26m 26s):
Why did I do that? Yeah.
2 (26m 28s):
Like, not just, that was bad for me, but that was bad for them. And I feel like, I, I feel like I took us several steps backwards just because this person's mentally unwell and I'm able to have like a reasonable back and forth in a conflict.
1 (26m 42s):
Right. So it's, it's, it's a lot more complicated, I think, than people people think. And also right when you're done, you're done. And when you're done, it's like, how can I extricate myself and not try to cause further harm to other people, but also not trying to cause further harm to myself.
2 (27m 3s):
Yeah. Yeah. Which is literally, you're the
1 (27m 6s):
Only person who can do that. Right. That's nobody else's job. Right. Somebody else's job. Holy shit. Well, congratulations.
2 (27m 14s):
Thank you. So how are you doing
1 (27m 16s):
Well, this is, I'm pretty good. I'm on, I'm so weird. I don't even know. I don't think I told you this last Wednesday. I had a zoom look. I haven't had any auditions in a long time. Last Wednesday. I had a zoom audition for a film being shot in Chicago. And of course, and now I'm on, I'm on hold for it. I'm on check avail for films in Chicago. And it's a big film. And it's, I'm like, what
2 (27m 43s):
If it's going to start filming, like on one, the one-year anniversary of the day you guys went there and then had to stay,
1 (27m 50s):
Well, the thing is, it starts filming Monday, but I oh yeah. For a month. But I, I, my part is super, super small. So I doubt I I'm thinking it's a one or two days shoot. If I book it and you know, the difference of, I mean, I feel like petrified of getting it because I'm, I'm just, I I'm, we're really, you know, that's my first go-to, but I also felt like it was the first time in an audition where I was like, you know, like, how can we talk about this on here? But like, how willing am I to treat myself? Like, shit, I'm not anymore as much. So like, no matter what happens if I, if I, you know, I'm not even sure I want to be an actor.
1 (28m 36s):
Right. So, so I, I have to get clear about that. I, so if I'm not really sure that this is my life's path, then, then, then the reason that I'm scared is definitely old stuff of being approved of and making a fool of myself and feeling like all is lost if I screw up, like, so that's what I'm working with. It's not so much that this is my dream. And I want so badly to be in this film that I'm so nervous. It is old stuff, which doesn't mean that it makes it easier, but it's just clear. So I'm getting clear. So I was like, all right, if that's the case, then how can I work with that? And I just, I just had, I was like, you know what?
1 (29m 17s):
I'm not going to pretend that I don't care because I do, but I'm also not going to, I just put my foot down in terms of beating, being, being cruel to myself, I put my foot down. I said, I am not, I am not willing to berate, belittle and hurt myself if I screw this up. Or if I don't get it, or if I do get it, I am not no longer willing. I'm just going to have to set some boundary with myself about my, my, how far am I willing to go with my, with my weirdness craziness and, and self abuse. And I just, so I didn't go there and now I'm on top of avail.
1 (29m 59s):
I mean, you know, it's like, it, I'm not saying they're totally related, but I'm just saying like, it makes sense to me.
2 (30m 5s):
Yeah. It makes sense. Because every time you go further and that's been the case like over the last year or the, we talked about this every time you you're like, I don't, I, you let it go. And all of a sudden,
1 (30m 17s):
Yeah. And like, no matter, I think the, for me, the freedom lies in no matter how badly I do or think I do, no matter how awful rotten, I may screw this up in my head, or even in real life screwed up because it happened, I am not willing to treat myself like a piece of shit. Like that's where I got to, because I thought that is the only thing I have control over really, really the evidence shows that I have control. And even that is questionable sometimes. But if I'm going to have control or ownership over anything, let it be about how I treat myself as I go through this experience or I'll still do it, or else not stop auditioning because this doesn't, this is not.
1 (31m 7s):
And so I thought, okay, okay, can I, can I, and I, and I, I really was like, I was like, breathe. You know, it's a zoom audition, it's weird breathe. And it was just me in casting. And then I just went right to check avail, but which is great, but two scenes and w and we'll see, but I think it just, it's all fodder for like, can I put, can I stop treating myself terribly well,
2 (31m 32s):
Well, you know, one thing for certain, you can never go wrong when that's your guiding principle, you can go wrong when your guiding principle is, will they like me? And is it okay at, am I good enough? You know, but you'll never go wrong with when you're trying to set when you're just trying to do something intentionally. I mean, that's kind of what we're talking about is like being extremely intentional, right. Instead of reactive about right. How do I want to wind my way through the situation? What do I want my, this is just a concept that I really am new to, what do I want out of the situation? How do I want to reflect back on how I conducted myself, forget about what I want them to do.
2 (32m 13s):
Right. Because that's what I've been focused on my whole life, the other person to do.
1 (32m 17s):
Right. I, I, how can I make, how can I, how can I yeah. Make this easier for them, better for them read their mind, do what they want me to do. And I'm like, oh my God, that, that, that not only forget, it's not, it can't happen because in my make-believe mind that that, that doesn't come into play, but it, it, it feels terrible. And it, and it increases my anxiety and depression because it's so, it's so unattainable. So at least if I, if, like you said, like, if I'm the, if I'm the problem, right. If I'm the problem, that means that I'm also inside of me is also the, when the solution, the success, you know, that, thank God.
2 (33m 7s):
Yeah. Yeah. Thank God. Yeah. That's the best news. So I have, I actually was just a couple of days ago thinking about you and your career paths and, and, and like the things that you have described to me, like you, you basically pursued acting because of your relationship with this other person who you wanted to emulate. And then you basically, you know, got the job as the, as the Hollywood assistant when somebody else came. I mean, it was all kind of, you know, not, maybe not that intentional.
2 (33m 50s):
And I remember having like, kind of a aha thought about it. I should have written it down because it's not occurring to me right now, but it was something about like, maybe it was just that the further she goes in figuring out the basic questions about what she really likes and what she really wants, this is going to be less and less of a thing. Like, you're the thing that you you've said a lot. Like maybe I should work at seven 11. Maybe I should work at this bakery. I don't know. There's something to it that I feel maybe it's that I feel you're really changing for yourself right now.
2 (34m 35s):
I see you approaching things with a lot more intentionality
1 (34m 38s):
And you know, what was so crazy is that I think this podcast for us is a way of actually looking at all that stuff. So like, even if the POC, I mean, I hope it goes, goes a global. And, but even if it's just for you and I to look at what the hell am I doing? Who am I, how, how can I make things better for myself? And thus be a better like kinder human probably for everybody else. Then that was all worth it. Because it's like, I could not keep going the way I was going and expect to be happy, or even at peace or even do something fun. Like I had to look at like, wait, wait, wait, what is underneath all this?
1 (35m 20s):
Like, I should just work at seven 11. And, and I, you know, and we say, this we've said this before, but like, I want to be clear, seven 11 is not the problem. I am the problem. Right? So like you work at seven 11. That's not what I'm saying. What I'm saying is that, like, for me, what using that is as an excuse and our tool to try to figure out like, okay, where do I belong? That's what it is like, where do I belong? Where do I want to belong? Where can I contribute? But also, like you say, like, what do I want, where do I want to belong?
2 (35m 54s):
It's actually the, are you my mother phenomenon? You know? But in this case regarding like, where's your place in the world instead of wandering around wondering like who's in charge of you or whatever, it's that it's, which actually they're both the same thing. They're both about belonging. Right. But instead of you making it about, I guess that's what it is just like, instead of you making about another person or another institution or another entity, you're figuring out where you're guiding your own self
1 (36m 21s):
And myself and like, yeah, that's just it. Where do I belong? And I don't know yet, but I I'm pretty sure it's not at the am PM. Do you know what I mean? I just don't know that that's going to do it for me.
2 (36m 35s):
No matter how good those hot dogs are, future, how,
1 (36m 41s):
How good the deal is, two for one veggie chips. You know what I mean? Like,
2 (36m 48s):
So then when I went to that amp, it was so like, it, no, it was like
1 (36m 55s):
Vibration whole. They it's like a club. It's like a club on the weekend.
2 (37m 1s):
That's what I felt like. I felt like I walked into a club with no music and the lights were really bright.
1 (37m 8s):
It's crazy. It's put the same vibe. Like, you're like, this is a whole scene here. There's a lot of back and forth.
2 (37m 19s):
Yeah. About that all the time at gas stations, by the way, because the people who work at gas stations, I think tend to be people who are in transition. And I just observed so much, like, I love the idea that at any place I am visiting in a transitory fashion, there's a whole entrenched, you know, rich, layered history and culture. And that I just don't have any idea about because how could I, it's fascinating to think about,
1 (37m 54s):
Well, that's why you're a good writer too. It's like you get in there and you can like observe and like create w like it's a whole world. That's there
2 (38m 3s):
To be curious. Fun to be
1 (38m 4s):
Curious about. Yeah.
2 (38m 17s):
Today on the podcast we talked to Amar derisory Amar is originally from Jordan, grew up in Michigan, got his BFA and his MFA, and is a fan of Shakespeare, has some great Shakespeare series that you can check out through his website. And we enjoy talking with him about what his lasting impressions are of attending theater school. So please enjoy. So Amar, congratulations. You survived theater
3 (38m 54s):
School. Thank you. Yes, I did. You
2 (38m 57s):
Survived it twice cause you got your BFA in Michigan, right? And then your MFA at DePaul. That's correct. So you must've been very committed to being an actor from high school or earlier.
3 (39m 9s):
Yes, that is correct. I think high school is where I got the bug. Some teacher encouraged me to be in the school play and I'm like, ah, no, no, no, you have a great personality. You can do a kid. You can do it. I'm like, all right. And as soon as I got on that stage, it was like, right there. It was
2 (39m 30s):
The feeling that you had.
3 (39m 32s):
It's it's, it's, it's it's excitement. And you get these, you know, these vibes like, oh my God, I'm doing something. This is fun. It's like an addiction. It really is. It's like anything else? I just, I just went crazy. I started eating the scenery because it was like, I'm enjoying, this could be another role. At one point I wanted to play like 5, 6, 7 roles, you know, because I just said, I want to do everything. It was that much excitement. So that's when I decided to really pursue this,
2 (40m 4s):
I think to do with, I don't know something about the way you just said that made me think you were set. You were keying into people are listening to me here. Was that something
3 (40m 15s):
People were looking at me, people were watching me. People were doing that. Yes. There to a certain degree. Yes. But you know, not to the point where I want attention, you know, like, look at me, look at me. But I wanted, I wanted to make people happy, laugh, cry, you know, do something. That was the thing. I think, I think what got me was when people reacted to your performance, people that then it's like, oh my God, I did that. I did that. And that is something that is just, you can't, you can't describe that feeling is, is, it's just, it's like a forest.
1 (40m 52s):
Something that you said that really sparked a memory of you for me was like that your you are, and look, this is not everyone. We're not a one-sided, but you are a people person. Like I remember that about you. Like, there are some people who just like people, I'm a people person too. But, and I, so I recognize that. And other people where I feel like from seeing you around in school and in plays, like you really had the ability to connect with a wide variety of different kinds of people. Do you know where that came from? If that's true, if you,
3 (41m 31s):
I identify with that. I, I make friends with people on the street, just I'll just say hi to anybody. You know, I that's just my nature, my personality. I believe if you say hi to someone, you, it just makes them feel better. I think, hi, how you doing? Oh, hi. Oh, kind of surprises them that, you know, I don't have any money to leave me alone. I think some people get, get pretty weird about it. When somebody like myself says hi, where it comes from. I can't tell you. I think it's just, I've always been an outgoing person since I was a kid. I remember my parents telling me that, you know, this kid is going to be something he likes to talk to people.
3 (42m 16s):
Just, I would just talk to people. Hi,
2 (42m 20s):
Do you have artists in your family?
3 (42m 23s):
No, I am the only artist. My brother, my brother's a doctor. My sister is a, is a teacher and an administrator at a school in Abu Dhabi and the Emirates. So I am the only performance.
2 (42m 39s):
It's always so interesting to think about. Like, of course, going back throughout your family's lineage, you're not the only artist you may have been. The only one who had the opportunity. Like this is the case for me, had the opportunity to pursue it. You know? Cause what I found after I decided that I really wanted to pursue this. It's like, oh, but then my aunt can kind of paint and this one can kind of write a little bit. It just feels like it's not something that they pursued for their, you know, for their regular career. But there it's a privilege, I guess that we, you know, got a chance in school and after to pursue it. And you had some great, you were in some great plays, Romeo and Juliet landscape of the body during the
3 (43m 21s):
That's right. Oh my God. I still have that picture of me and the golden matress that John Bridges, I'm going to send it to you. I got a whole bunch of pictures of sent to you today. So I was rummaging through the old photo albums and I found a whole bunch of DePaul pictures, but yeah. Yeah, that was, that was an interesting play. I landscape with the body. It was just a, a fun, a fun play, a fun.
1 (43m 45s):
Now did you, you said that you got the bug early on because the teacher sort of encouraged you then how did that grow into? Because I'm always interested in like, okay, so when you're in a play and I'm sure that, you know, you were magnificent and they, but how did it people loved you and you loved it, but how did that transform into like, I'm going to go to a conservatory because that place was, you know, DePaul, the conservatories are crazy. So how does,
3 (44m 13s):
Okay, this is a good story. I'm glad you asked this. No, I was, I was doing a play in Flint, Michigan and the lead actress, her and I were backstage and we were just chit chatting before our next it was, I think it was during intermission, but anyway, it doesn't matter. She actually, she goes, well, are you going to go to grad school? Are you going to continue your journey? And I said, I'm not sure. I thought I'd just stick around. Maybe do some theater around here. She goes, no, no, no, you should really go. There's this place called DePaul university. It's a great school. You should go and check it out. I said, really? I said, where's that Chicago? Okay. Well, you know, sure. I go to my, my professors that my undergrad school and they paid for the application fee.
3 (44m 56s):
I mailed it in. And I think within, I think within a few weeks I got my appointment to audition for the school. And it was in January, in the dead of winter, in Michigan, Nine feet of snow as we're driving to Chicago, I'm my friend and I, but yeah,
2 (45m 20s):
You applied. It was the only place you applied for grad school.
3 (45m 24s):
I applied at Purdue university as well. I got accepted at both, both places. The, and it was Purdue or Chicago, DePaul. But I think with Purdue, you're in the middle of nowhere. It's God's country out there. There's just the school. And that's it. Where you had the theater school in Chicago and a vibrant city. It was very infectious and scary at the same time. But that's when I met the infamous John Bridges. I thought I blew it to be totally honest with you. I thought I blew it. I did a, I did a classical and I did a contemporary, obviously Joe Slovak, John Bridges.
3 (46m 4s):
And I believe Betsy Hamilton where my, my auditioners, if you will. And I thought I did okay with the classical, the contemporary was kind of thing. I got an, I, you know, green to the business, didn't know how to actually present a monologue or, you know, my teachers back and undergraduate say, look, just put them together. Just stop and blah, blah, blah, or just, you know, they, you know, they told me what, what I had to do, but I just remember saying goodbye and thank you for the time. And Joe slow. It was, you know, okay, you got a good job, good job. You know, you have a great journey back home. And I said, okay. And my friend goes, how did it go?
3 (46m 46s):
And I'm like, ah, forget it. I'm going to Purdue. I'm going to Purdue. And then, and then shoot, I auditioned on a Saturday in January. I get the letter on a Tuesday. And I remember my friend goes, Hey, you got this letter from DePaul. Why don't you open it? I said, oh, it's BS. They're just telling me they're not going to accept me. Look, I'm going to open it. I was about to rip it. And I said, oh, but it just opened it. And I'm like, oh yeah, let me read it to you. You know, I'm going to decline. You have been formally accepted.
2 (47m 20s):
Oh my God, that's amazing. That's a side note. Do you guys know that in today's day and age, when kids get their acceptance, it's email obviously. And then a lot of schools or maybe even most schools when they open the email, if they got accepted, it's a confetti graphic. So like they know as soon as they open it, if there's confetti, that is so it's so wild, right? Like the things that they could never imagine having to wait in a letter to come in the mail,
3 (47m 52s):
But
2 (47m 52s):
You did BFA. So why, why are you saying you kind of were green? You knew about,
3 (48m 0s):
I mean, I knew about acting it's I, I didn't know the, the, what we call the business affairs of acting the mechanics of acting, I guess I think, you know, we all experienced this. I'm sure guilty is charged. You know, when you're young or you're an actor, you really don't pay attention to a lot of things. You just want to, you know, you want to act, you want to do a performance. You want to do the best you can, of course. But then you also want to party afterwards and do all the things that young people do. And I, and I think I was talking to one of my fellow actors the other day and he asked me if you were to go back to grad school, what would you change? Or what would you, what would have helped you? And I said, have a class that teaches the business of acting and okay, these actors are going into Hollywood.
3 (48m 47s):
They're going to New York. They're going, whatever, teach them the basics of what the business of acting is. They got to know what a contract looks like. They got to know what business affairs mean. They got to know all this terminology. They got to know all that stuff. If I had known that that would have been a great tool for me coming to LA, coming to LA, I was green as green as a Shamrock, you know, just green. And I had to learn the hard way
1 (49m 10s):
And we'll get back to the LA part, but I'm not so curious about, okay, so you get into DePaul and then when, and usually being zest this, but I'll ask this, like when you get there, how did it match up to what you were thinking? Were you like, what the hell is going on? Why am I rolling on the floor to music or what?
3 (49m 29s):
I had no idea what was going on. And that I think scared, you know, on a side note, Chicago scared me. I was homesick for quite a bit of time before school started, I got to, I moved to Chicago, I think three weeks before school started. So there was three weeks where I did not know anybody did not know. I didn't know. Oh, I was in bad shape. And thank God for friends and family. Of course, you know, they call and man, you sound depressed, which is that dude. I'm by myself in Chicago. I don't know anybody. I don't know the city. It's a big city. It's like Flint times 20.
3 (50m 9s):
It's huge. But, but I think I, to answer your question about the school when the first day of school, wow. What up Betsy Hamilton's class. I'm like buoyancy. And I'm like, what the hell is she doing this buoyancy famously I ever done? And then it clicked it. Then I'm like, okay, I know what she's doing. All right. Okay. Joel, slow acting class. Woo. You can't do that. Okay. You got to do it this way. Okay. This little guy is running around this class and he inspired me.
3 (50m 55s):
I'm like, this is beautiful. This man in his seventies is running around like his, a guy in his twenties. He loves acting grub. Kowski all that stuff. And he was amazing, but
4 (51m 8s):
We didn't have him. So he's he was real. Hands-on
3 (51m 11s):
Like hands-on he was, I mean, I, I won the lottery with Joe slower. N not, not to say anything negative about Jim ocelot or anything like that, but he was just, he was on hands. And he really gave you when he gave you a note, he gave you a note. Okay. You know, he's like Amar, okay. Your legs. I don't know why your feet are doing that on the chair. It's like, it's not, it's not, that's an ism of yours. We gotta, you gotta, yeah. That's kinda like your feet, your feet, your body, your, your, your body is your instrument. And, you know, got to learn all this stuff.
3 (51m 52s):
And it's just woo. Graduate school. This is graduate school. So, yeah, that was a, a couple of experiences. I'm trying to think.
1 (52m 2s):
Did you feel like you fit in? Did you, did you, what was your, what was your vibe like there?
3 (52m 10s):
Unfortunately, my violet started to change in year two. That's when I started to feel, not that things weren't clicking for me or anything like that, but it just seemed like favorites started to appear. Oh, okay. You know, it's like, it happens. It's not something that, you know, it's done intentionally. It just happens. But if I, if you guys remember Eric Hayes, Eric, Michael Hayes,
4 (52m 43s):
Isabel. I haven't
3 (52m 44s):
Thought he was in Trojan women. I think he
1 (52m 50s):
Was like, yes, yes, yes, yes. So
3 (52m 52s):
He became a seminar. Yeah. Him and I don't know him and I beat we're we're unofficially the outcasts of the graduate class more or less. We weren't, we were not that, not that we were mistreated or anything. I'm not saying that we were mistreated by it just, it just seemed like we were known as the two actors that really didn't take things seriously. And I think that's a fallacy because I think I was taking it very seriously. I was just bored at times. I wanted to act, I didn't want to sit in a classroom all day and just sit. I wanted perform. I think, I think I understand the classroom format where you sit down, you watch your colleagues do their scenes, but I was getting fidgety, fidgeting, bored, bored.
3 (53m 39s):
And to the point where you dread going to school, it was like, oh, I've got to go to acting class and sit there for two and a half hours. And watch people act, you know, which I get. And again, that didn't sound right coming out. But I mean, it's just, I loved, I loved all my classmates. I loved all my classmates. I think from Derek smart to Eric Hayes, the niece Odom, Heather Ireland to name a few, you know, they, they were fantastic. Pat. Tiedemann Kendra. I mean, and one of my, let me aside. No, one of my favorite, favorite times on DePaul was with you. Gina.
3 (54m 19s):
Do you remember you? And I started a film. I, I did.
2 (54m 23s):
Oh, say what
3 (54m 27s):
You guys remember bill Burnett. The voice in nucleus. Okay. So for our, for my final exam, I wanted to film a short film about quitting smoking. And
2 (54m 38s):
Coming back to me, wait a minute,
3 (54m 40s):
You were asking me, I had to, I rented a camera from the video department on the campus and I walked into the lobby of the theater school and you were there and it's like, I need to shoot a scene. It's like, oh, let me be in it. And I said, okay, we'll just improv. We'll just talk about quitting. So we set the camera and you and I sat in the lobby and we filmed it and we did it. I think I still have it. I'll find it for you in 1994.
2 (55m 7s):
I have to tell you something, because I know you haven't been able to listen to the podcast because our website had a broken link. Okay. But what, what I should tell you is that boss and I have huge memory gaps about our time. There are many things we do not remember.
3 (55m 28s):
What
2 (55m 29s):
What's kind of weird is I sort of remembered this film that you really are hearing about it. Yeah. I mean, I believe you, I believe both of you. Okay. How exciting, you know, why I would really love that is because just last week I was saying to boss, wouldn't you like the opera? Because nothing was recorded. Really? Not even our showcase or if it was, it's not something I ever saw. No. Wouldn't you like to go back and just watch yourself? Because now we've spent basically a year and a half fully immersed. We have talked to 55 people about what their theater school experiences.
2 (56m 9s):
So we, we are getting back on board with what it was and we're slipping, you know, different people fill in like little bit of blanks. But now I like, now I'm just so curious about, you know, what, what, what was the experience of what was I like at that time? And a lot of people don't remember us, so we haven't really gotten this feedback from
3 (56m 29s):
Yeah. I mean, I remember boss. I remember all you guys. I do remember a lot of, and there's a lot of people I don't remember. I mean, I think when I was on your website the other day, you know, trying to figure out what you're like and it, which is congratulations to the both of you. I think it's awesome. I saw Tate Smith. I saw a picture of Pete Smith and I completely Like that. It was stuff like that. You know, you running into people that wow, amazing. I'm sorry. Go ahead. I interrupted you.
1 (56m 59s):
No, no, no. I was just going to ask, like, what was your, okay, so, so year two, you started getting itchy and like, but how did you feel? We talk a lot about like casting. How did you feel about your casting in shows? Which most people do? Like, there's been like one person that we've talked to. That was like, I loved my casting, but everyone else is like, I fucking hate it.
3 (57m 23s):
Nope. I haven't hated it. I hated it. And again, like I said, it happens. I think, I think a lot of the directors, the professors who are directing and all that stuff were just picking their favorites. They're not, if we're going to be in a learning environment, then you, you should take a risk with me, with somebody else with, with Heather. I think nobody was taking any risks. And everyone's like, Hey, I gotta put on a show and it's gotta be the best show I possibly can. And I'm going to use the best actors or that, you know, my opinion, the best actors. And it's like, you know, you know, if you're, you're not preparing us for the real world, you know, if you're going to do this, you know, this blind casting, whatever I thought I thought, Hey, it's a learning. I'm sure. I'm sure one of them, I'm sure Jim Ossoff will cast me.
3 (58m 3s):
Never did Joe slow cast me, you know, and his journey of the fifth horse. It was a great experience for me. That's when you learn, I didn't want to be the lead role. I want to learn. I want to learn, teach me, teach me what it like to perform on a stage that would typically be a stage from new in New York or a main stage in Chicago. That's where we got to learn. Right? Yeah.
2 (58m 29s):
That's another thing that we've really uncovered here and it, by the way, it makes perfect sense. I'm really not maligning anybody, but that the professors, you know they, they were also trying to express their own artistic desires through the projects that they were casting. And I'm sure nine times out of 10, they got carried away with their own ego about what they wanted to like, actually, we just heard this story from the episode that's airing today with Stephen Davis.
3 (58m 58s):
Oh, wow. Yeah.
2 (59m 1s):
That's a great episode. You listened to it. He re he begged the theater school to do Shakespeare. He begged them to do Romeo and Juliet, which they did. Yep. He, he really wanted to be Romeo. He didn't get cast. And he was told if I had cast you, I would had to gone with my fourth choice for Juliet of the height, because Karen mold is very tall. That's a perfect example of something that should be okay in theater school. I understand you don't want to do it when you're charging $400 a ticket on Broadway.
1 (59m 38s):
We're in a film where the camera's going to be jacked up, but like, but just cast. And sometimes, and sometimes I would think that, and maybe they do it now. Like sometimes you would say, why not? No. Cause it's obvious when someone wants a rule, right? So whoever wants this rule so badly, for whatever reason, they've never been cast and whatever, give them the role, let them do the role. Like maybe it's, maybe it's not, it's a long shot, but that's what school's about is long shots and learning. Right? It's like, let, let the person do this. You know, they're dying to play Romeo. Just let them play Romeo.
1 (1h 0m 19s):
Yeah.
3 (1h 0m 19s):
Yeah. Okay. And excuse me, the, if, if, if you don't mind, you know, now that you guys have you, of course, but I'm just saying the play was set in the middle east.
2 (1h 0m 31s):
Right. Very
3 (1h 0m 32s):
Last time I checked I'm Jordanian.
2 (1h 0m 35s):
Right?
3 (1h 0m 36s):
The play Romeo Lord Capulet he was Jewish. I'm sorry. He was the Jewish character, but yeah, I get it. I totally get it. I totally get it. And I agree with Steven on this one, because it just seemed like, it seemed like we are in a learning environment and let's learn. And if you're going to, if you're going to just cast people because whatever, then, then what's the point of going to the, to the fricking school and spending, spending $16,000 a year. I don't know what it is today, but
1 (1h 1m 10s):
It's like 48 or some craziness
3 (1h 1m 13s):
For paying student loans for three years, three years of, you know, every now and then some BS. Okay. Other than that, you know, the two best teachers that I had over there, arguably as Dr. Bella <inaudible> and Joe slower. And I think because they come from, you know, such interesting backgrounds, you know, Joe slug being Polish, you know, Bella, it can be in a Russian Jewish woman. Oh, I got a lot of stories while her, oh my God.
1 (1h 1m 43s):
She did she help you? Do you feel like she helped you as a teacher?
3 (1h 1m 47s):
Oh, she was. She, she, she, I am in her debt, you know, when it comes to acting and stuff like that. I think, I think she finally, I think she was the one that I finally, I realized what it's like to feel the, you know, like with the apple and, you know, I didn't know. It's like the Pandora box thing that she was talking about. And then it just like a light bulb over my head. It's like, oh my God, the feel what it's like to be in winter, you know, even though you're on the stage and it's hot, you gotta like, as if it's 40 below zero, she really, that, that, that, that technique, that acting technique was just incredible.
3 (1h 2m 28s):
I am forever in her dad and she is awesome. She's an automation rest in peace. And I, a couple of great stories about her is one that when she would like to meet her students before class, so we will walk into her office and talk and I'm sitting there in the office, she's looking at the hair. She goes, okay. Oh yeah, that doesn't sound English. And I said, oh, well, it's, it's Jordanian. I'm from the police. It's Jordanian. She goes, oh, well, you know, I'm Jewish. And I remember talking to my dad, I said, dad, I, I have to talk to this Jewish professor.
3 (1h 3m 9s):
You just say we're cousins. Okay. Because we are just say that don't rock the boat. Okay. So when she said they're doing, you know, I'm Jewish. And I said, well, well, yeah, I do. I do. But you know, being Jordanian and you being Jewish, you know, we're, we're practically cousins. So, you know, it's great, right. Without a drop of a dime, she goes, well, we might be cousins over, not exactly kissing cousins.
2 (1h 3m 38s):
Oh, that's hilarious. By the way, in case you don't know, I might have mentioned this on the podcast. Once before there exists on the internet, a Hastick interview with Joseph Loic and Bella it kin, okay. Was it conducted by studs, Terkel? It might've been, or some radio project. And the two of them talking about their approaches to acting and to teaching acting is really, really good. Yeah. You got to check it out. Right. So she really helped me. W we didn't, neither one of us had either one of those teachers, unfortunately, but we love,
3 (1h 4m 13s):
She, she was great. And I would give her ride home, poor thing. You know, she, you know, her husband, Frank was very ill at the time and she was like, oh, muck. And you're giving me a ride home. And I'm like, yes. Yes. Ma'am. And I was like, oh, you'll cause kind of a mess there. What'd you just get in the car.
2 (1h 4m 34s):
We know you had a car. That's K that's it wasn't that useful for people in school? Did you, and you messed up, I guess all the MFA's probably lived in apartments or was there any dorm living for MFS?
3 (1h 4m 45s):
No, no, no. Don't limit for MFA. So we had to live in apartments and my first apartment was a studio. And then I think the second year I moved in with, with Eric, from school and then we had a former student. I don't know if you remember John Soldani by any chance familiar. He was first year grad. And then I think he was cut from the program after the first year, but he came back to Chicago. So we were roomies. And then I met my girlfriend who was also a student at DePaul, Alicia hall. Right. So we, we were together. So we moved in together, I think, mid third year, something like that.
3 (1h 5m 29s):
I'm not sure, but yeah. And then I stayed in Chicago after graduation. I just decided to stay in Chicago and did get quite a bit of theater in Chicago and then decided to do the LA thing. And,
1 (1h 5m 41s):
Okay. So, so I just have a question about what was your experience like of the warning system and the cutting system where you weren't?
3 (1h 5m 49s):
Oh, good question. Good question. Oh, I'm glad you brought that up. I think it's, I think it took the attention away from the program because I think all the students were more concerned about the warning, getting warned and getting caught than anything, and that affected their performance in class and it affected their performance on stage my opinion. I remember some friends of mine who were just scared and I admit I was very, very nervous, but when I didn't get warned, then all of a sudden I was able to concentrate on school. I was like classes where the people that were warned, all they can think about what I can do to not get kicked out of the class.
3 (1h 6m 31s):
And then next thing you know, it just, it just really, really was detrimental to their performance in my opinion.
2 (1h 6m 38s):
But it took the focus
3 (1h 6m 40s):
Away. Oh yeah. Never worn. I was the only, I was the only male that wasn't warrant. All the male actors were warned except for me. And we ended up having eight graduate students, three men and five women, which I mean Derek smart, Eric Hayes and myself, and then the five women, Denise home, Heather Ireland, pat Tiedemann Kendra. I forgot her last name. Thank you. And Alicia, Alicia, Alicia was in the other class. Lisa was in the other, but I remembered you guys remember a teacher named Susan Lee.
2 (1h 7m 24s):
Her name has come up at times on this podcast. Yes,
3 (1h 7m 30s):
She was my advisor. She was the one that told me whether I was warned or not, or kicked out or not. And she said the most procurator thing. And I'm not sure if it was from the professors, but she said, well, you're not cut. You're not warned. We just don't know what to do with you. I just looked at her. What do you mean by that? Well, I mean, you're, you're, you know, I don't remember the conversation.
1 (1h 7m 55s):
Did she say that she raised, she say something about being a, from the middle east or
3 (1h 8m 3s):
Yeah, something like that. And I said, well, why don't you, why don't you and your professors just ask me and find out what you can do. Right? I mean, just I'm middle Eastern doesn't mean, I don't know how to act girl. You there.
1 (1h 8m 23s):
Wait a minute. So wait a minute.
3 (1h 8m 25s):
There's more than one professor that kind of, oh, I'm sure. I'm sure I'm not going to mention any names, but
2 (1h 8m 32s):
There was quite a few.
1 (1h 8m 35s):
Yeah. Right? To say that, that, that being from the middle east, my guesses, people were assholes about it. Like right. Like racist, racist, assholes.
3 (1h 8m 50s):
I mean, and that's what was going to be NASA, regardless of what race you are. So, you know, you're going to be an asshole. You're going to be an asshole. If you are a mean person, you are a mean person. It has nothing to do with your gender, your culture, where you come from, you're you, if you're a mean person, you're a mean person having said that there was quite a few people that said some things to me while I was in school, which was very offensive. But what do you want me to do? Fight every person. That's some kind of, you know, I was called many things. I was called camel jockey. I was called by students. Oh, somebody students. Yeah. Mostly by students. You know, I was called no, no, no. It's okay.
3 (1h 9m 31s):
Hey, that's you know, you, you grow from it. There was, there was one person that called me a word. I don't think I can say it on this podcast, but it's a, it's like, whoa.
2 (1h 9m 42s):
Well, well, we've heard so much about from every alum of color that we've talked to, is this thing that you're describing of maybe they even got selected for the program with the idea, oh, you know, we don't have anybody who looks like this in our program, but then it became, we can,
1 (1h 10m 2s):
We don't have any money.
2 (1h 10m 3s):
We can only find a role for that person. If it's clearly identified in the text that that person is that ethnicity. Meanwhile, all the white actors could be up for any role. Right. That, that was sort of the default. Like if you're white, then you can play anything. But if you're not white, then you, then you have to play a role that's written for whatever your ethnicity is.
3 (1h 10m 27s):
I agree with that. And yeah. And I think, I think Christina dare kind of broke the window on that with Romeo and Juliet, by casting Leonard Roberts as Romeo, you know, an African-American man. And he was great in the role. He was great. Absolutely. You know, she passed me as, you know, as a Jewish man, you know, even though I'm there, I like that. I I'm playing against type. This is, these are the rules that I would like to be challenged with. And unfortunately I wasn't challenged with over there. And I think the school to your saying, Gina, I think the school was just kinda like, eh, let's just bring this middle Eastern guy. See what happens. Let's get this African-American person. Let's see what happens. Let's get this Indian person. Let's see what happens. And nothing happened, nothing happened.
3 (1h 11m 8s):
And, and by the third year, by the third year, I was just, I was done. I was done. After, after Shakespeare, Susan Lee, I was done. I was done. She, she was a hard teacher. She was a hard teacher to deal with both academically. And you know, personally it's just, just was hard. It was hard to deal with her. I'm not, I know Bobby, some students have some harsher words for her, but again, I was going back to what I said earlier, Eric and I were pretty much marked by her that we were not serious about Shakespeare.
3 (1h 11m 48s):
And I was very serious about it. I just wanted, I remember students coming up to me, they tried to avoid being partners with us. And then I had one partner telling me, Hey, you better not fool around or do this. You know, you gotta be serious. I said, what the hell is wrong with you? And then when they find out the real me, and then it's like, wow, that's totally different than what I'm hearing about you. And I'm like,
2 (1h 12m 11s):
Yeah, this is serious. Is my lasting impression of you. I would never have said that you were anything but very serious.
3 (1h 12m 21s):
I appreciate that. I really do. I appreciate that. I was very serious about that. I wanted to go to LA and be a film and television actor. I want to work with these people. I put that in my head. I mean, theater is great and I love theater and I want to continue doing theater. And hopefully I am soon. I'll fill you in later, but I am ready. I, when I was in, I said, I'm ready to go to LA, okay, ready to do this. And 1999, I went there as a, for a visit. And I said, damn the habit. This is it. I'm not going to deal with with 20 below zero weather anymore. Number one.
3 (1h 13m 2s):
But that was my Mo, but the theater school, the theater school, I just couldn't wait for graduation day. I just couldn't wait. I just wanted to get out. I wanted to get out. It just, I don't know if you guys experienced it. I don't, I'm not sure about the four year program. Do you guys have a, an exit acting class that you guys take or Okay. We have Jane alderman too, but we also had bill brown. He was an actor that came in, did that. Yeah. And, and it just reached a point where the 30, I felt like the school gave up on us, on the flirt here. They were just bringing anybody in the fill in, just get them out of here, get on it.
3 (1h 13m 46s):
But Jane Jane alderman was one of my favorite classes because she cast the show. The TV shows, whatever that came in, the Chicago and all that stuff.
1 (1h 13m 59s):
No, I just was going to say, ask it. You stayed in Chicago. When did you graduate? In night?
3 (1h 14m 4s):
I graduated in 96 and I left three years. I left three years later.
1 (1h 14m 8s):
So you did theater in between, and then you came to
2 (1h 14m 11s):
LA for a visit and you
3 (1h 14m 13s):
Just straight upstate. Yeah, no, no. I went back to move cause I had to go back, pack everything I could put in my Honda accord and drove from Chicago to Los Angeles. I just packed everything I could possibly pack in that little car. And I, I remember Jane alderman. She, I would help her out with her auditions. And I asked her if I, you know, what do you think about, you know, me going to LA, I'd like to go. And she looked at me, she goes, oh mark. You're not going to make it. And I like, yeah. And I said, Jane, come on. That's not nice. She goes, no, no, no. I mean, not in full sincerity. It's a tough, it's a tough thing.
3 (1h 14m 53s):
Tough thing out there. And you know, it takes a lot of guts. And I said, well, I have the guts and I'm going to do it. And your discouragement is all the encouragement I need because now you challenged me. She wasn't being vicious about it. I mean, she wasn't being mean about, she was just being matter of fact. And that is Jane alderman. Jane Oldman is matter of fact, you know, she's not going to sugarcoat it for you. She's going to tell you straight out. And that's what I loved about her. I loved about her because she was straightforward.
2 (1h 15m 23s):
Yeah. You knew you that you didn't feel unclear about where?
3 (1h 15m 28s):
No, no, no, no. I, you know, to me, I think I made it. I've worked on television. I've done a lot of TV. I've done a lot of, oh, I did a movie with Anthony Hopkins called bad company. It was an action. Packed a thriller. Also with Chris rock, I've worked with Gary Sinise on criminal minds. I've worked with Tommy Lee Jones on the us marshals. I've worked with some elitist actors. I mean, people that you know that, Hey,
2 (1h 15m 58s):
Yes, what we're going to be interviewing Joe Montana. Pretty soon
3 (1h 16m 2s):
I told my son, he better remember me. My God. We were the two oldest people during the, you know, we do those alumni things. You know, when the students come for the showcases and we sit down, Joe and I are the oldest oldest two. They're Like, Hey man, thank God you're here because I was the oldest one too.
2 (1h 16m 25s):
You still do that. Do you still participate in
3 (1h 16m 27s):
This whenever they invite me?
2 (1h 16m 29s):
So what do you think of like the recent crop? Cause we we've talked to many, many people from our year and we've talked to a handful of people who just graduated or in their last year, but actually we've hardly talked to anybody in between like people who graduated 10 years ago. Anything you can share with us about what you observed about subsequent classes that came out to LA after our, after your year.
3 (1h 16m 54s):
Good question I did about, I think I did about a dozen of these alumni thing. Yeah, I did about a dozen. I always tell John Bridges. I said, if I'm available at any time, you know, I'm here to talk. Especially with me being an ethnic actor, you know, an actor of diversity would probably be helpful and useful to see somebody there. And the beginning of those alumni, you know, after I started doing was they were very attentive. They were very, you know, you know, really want asked genuine questions. The last one I did, They were on their phones, which was very, very disrespectful in my opinion, you know, we're, we're, we're taking the time out of our day to sit down and talk to you and tell, you know, what it's like to be in LA.
3 (1h 17m 42s):
What it's like to be in New York and half to three quarters of the students that were there were on their phones. You know, my wife noticed it. My wife comes to these. She's really good friends with John Bridges. They met years ago. And so it's a nice reunion, but she noticed and told me, she goes, you don't have to. I said, I know I was Joe and I were sitting there just like, you know, watching them. And it just that's, that's the,
1 (1h 18m 8s):
Are these students that were there for the showcase and that are like, oh, maybe they're like, so that's another thing it's like, I feel like people get so into like, oh my God, do I have any meetings? Does anyone want to see me do a bit of that? That we can't be present with like, oh my gosh, here's some people who are doing the job I want to do.
3 (1h 18m 28s):
Yup. Yup. And especially it's, it's a treat to have Joe Montana there too, because he is, I mean, he's on, you know, CSI the criminal minds, you know, series, which is extremely popular series. And you would want to talk to this, man. I want to talk to this man. And I'm sitting next to him. Hey Joe, I have some questions. Why don't you cast me so
2 (1h 18m 50s):
Well, there's two things. I mean, one thing is what's been probably true since the beginning of time is everybody who's at that showcase thinks I'm <inaudible> I'm going to shoot straight to Brad. Pet's going to be calling. I don't know. I always think of Brad Pitt is my only example of obviously Brad Pitt and Meryl Streep, I guess that's cause I'm 47. I think they're going to go straight to the top. They don't need to learn anything else. They did school. I mean, clearly they know every kids enough that, and then the other thing is at the risk of sounding really like a fuddy-duddy I do really. I'm just, I just puzzle about like the business is all about relationships.
2 (1h 19m 32s):
And even if you don't want to listen to Joe Montana speak act like you do, you don't want Joe Montana to think you're blowing him off because you and or, or Omar. I mean, anybody could be in any position in the future to hire you. You can't squander any chance.
3 (1h 19m 53s):
Yeah.
1 (1h 19m 54s):
I was just going to say, looking back like, and Gina, we've talked about this. It's like, I, I wish that I had not squandered, but I think it's every generation we have. We, because we don't yet know how precious these connections are. Like, like I thought, you know, like I've talked about it. I thought these people that were offering to help me were, were idiots and assholes. What? I mean, I could see myself watching Amar and Joe Montana and being like, I wonder how cute am I? I'm cute.
3 (1h 20m 32s):
Yeah. What did they say? Oh, I remember my showcase. And I ran the Joe asked him the question I want. I said, Joe, can you give me some insight as to what would it be like for an ethnic actor as myself to be successful in the business of acting in film and television here in LA today, you know, asking, you know? Yeah. And he goes, he goes, that's a very, I remember he was like, well, he was kind of fumbling a little bit. How do you answer a question like that? Right. I mean
1 (1h 21m 2s):
98 or
3 (1h 21m 2s):
Whatever, 1996. And I'm like, what's it like for a middle Eastern man, like myself, what? You know? And, but he answered me and I talked to him and it was great. It was awesome. And you know, he said all he said, I remember it. He said, look, you just have to go and audition and do the best, but be prepared, be prepared. And you know, you, it's important to have a good agent that sees your talent other than your look. But, you know, he goes, be, be prepared that your look is what they're going to cast too as well. So, you know, that's always good. And I took advantage of that. I took
2 (1h 21m 37s):
Well, so I've heard middle Eastern actors describe, you know, probably also before the turn of the millennium only, ever being called in for terrorists or thugs or whatever has that shifted at all.
3 (1h 21m 56s):
My, my, my casting has been much better in the latter years, but in the beginning it was pretty much my agent, my agent was very good, is very good. I'm still with him to this day, but he would send me out on a variety of rules, not just the Arab rules, but he would send me out on a variety and I would get called in for those. But if you look at my resume, most of it is middle Eastern characters and whatnot. And again, the turn of events, nine 11 and all that stuff, Hollywood was just, and I thought my career was over
2 (1h 22m 30s):
So soon into it. You must've been,
3 (1h 22m 33s):
I said, I'm done. They're not going to Cass Arabs right now. We're the enemy now. And next thing you know, I was auditioning eight, nine times a week for shows and all that stuff. They, they were casting all nine 11 things. You just look at all the shows that came out in the mid two thousands to 2010, pretty much every network had some show about some counterterrorism group going after terrorists. Hello door was knocking all the time. I was working a lot to say,
2 (1h 23m 3s):
Is there any kind of a professional of actors that are middle Eastern? Like, is there any kind of a group, you know, forum for sort of talking about this stuff? Yeah.
3 (1h 23m 15s):
I mean, there was at one point in the beginning, a friend of mine started a forum where we would discuss our casting and discuss, you know, what it's like. And, and it just got to the point where it was, everyone was complaining, not getting called in and it wasn't even, it, it shifted focus. And that's when I just said, okay, I want to talk about the diversity of acting and let's talk about what we can do. Y'all you just complaining about that game called in? And it's like, okay, that's not a core principle. That's so I do converse with some middle Eastern actors that I'm still friends with, you know, over the years. And you know, their casting is still there terrorists where I'm getting called in for other stuff.
3 (1h 23m 60s):
And I think that has a lot to do with my training from DePaul, from the conservatory. So the biggest positive note I could give about the theater school is that it did prepare me for auditions. And let me expand beyond my look, my ethnicity, you know, Shakespeare is a good example. I did a, I did two short films on Shakespeare, what they called Shakespeare's pawn. And what I did was I took these monologues and spice them up a little bit. And I had these oversized chess pieces and there they were the audience and they moved around throughout the whole thing. And it was just me doing monologues because I would watch Shakespearian actors go on stage with a white shirt, black slacks and recite Shakespeare.
3 (1h 24m 48s):
And I said, wouldn't it be great if I shot a short film and then I would shoot on location in different areas. I'll give you guys the website. If you guys want to watch it, we'll put it in our show notes, my wife directed both of them. And you know, but as you can see, my wife's an artist all for artworks on the wall. I'll put her website too as well. She's, she's amazing. Yeah.
1 (1h 25m 15s):
It's your dream like? I'm just curious, like, what's your dream roles, like some roles that you haven't played yet that you would love to, like, what's your jam? What would you love to do?
3 (1h 25m 24s):
Oh man. I mean, take your pick. I I'd love to play suspense, thrillers, you know, the film noir type of thing where you're wearing that fedora, but you know, modernize it a little bit. That's the role of a lifetime to play that role? I mean, there's a film called sweet smell of success, Burt, Lancaster and Tony Curtis. And that's the role I want to play the, the, the Burt Lancaster rule where he's, I don't know if you've seen the movie or not, but there's a scene. It's great. It's part of the film noir. It's on TCM. It's on at 10 o'clock Eastern standard time. Catch it if you can. There. I think, I think it's great.
3 (1h 26m 5s):
And film the war is what I love to do. The old films. Those are the films that you want to do. Those are the ones that true raw acting, none of this CGI crap and Marvel and stuff, you know, nothing against Marvel. Cause you know, I might get cast in one, but I'm just saying Marvel is great and that's wonderful. I'm old school film, camera, black and white. So the role of a lifetime needs to play a film noir type of character in a suspense thriller. Those types of roles are the roles.
2 (1h 26m 39s):
I love that tracks because another thing I really remember about you was your amazing leather motorcycle jacket, the leather black leather
3 (1h 26m 48s):
Jacket. I still have it.
2 (1h 26m 51s):
That's
3 (1h 26m 51s):
Fantastic.
2 (1h 26m 53s):
So that, that tracks that you would, you know, that you're you're you like mystery and intrigue.
3 (1h 26m 60s):
Oh wow. Very good. Gina. Very good. <inaudible>
5 (1h 27m 13s):
If you liked what you heard today, please give us a positive five star review and subscribe and tell your friends. I survived. Theater school is an undeniable Inc production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina <inaudible> for more information about this podcast or other goings on of undeniable, Inc. Please visit our website@undeniablewriters.com. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Thank you.