Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World.
I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling
author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land.
Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge
thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen.
I have a request.
If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend.
It really helps us get this work done.
As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad.
And over the last 20 years, we've developed several
equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs.
If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning.
com.
So without further ado, let's meet today's guest.
Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.
Those of us who have family skin in the game you know, everyone
knows my story with my son.
Some of you maybe have listened to podcasts with the Berko family in Germany
and with Helena Helma and in New York.
And so all of us who are autism parents or parents of kids with, you know, fairly
extreme special needs have a unique perspective on this equine assisted thing.
Because we live it, we have no choice.
We're in it beyond the grave.
We have to turn our lives over to it completely in a way that is perhaps a
little different to someone who wants to get into it from a purely professional.
Or vocational point of view.
And so for that reason I'm always very excited when I have parents
and families coming on the show who have this experience and also have
created a practice, an equine assisted practice from that experience because
I think we can all absolutely agree that these people are the mentors.
So I've got a couple of these mentors with us today from the Netherlands.
And their story with their son Stan, has informed a whole practice in
a way of life which is now helping people in the Netherlands and
through this podcast, perhaps beyond.
So without further ado I'm gonna ask them to introduce themselves
and we'll take it from there.
So, who are you guys?
Monique: I am Monique Teman.
I am the mother of Stan.
And we also have another son and another daughter.
So, that's me.
Husband: Okay.
I'm Ian.
I'm the father of Stan and our other son, GU and our daughter.
And no, Stan is already now 20 years old.
Almost,
Rupert Isaacson: almost,
Husband: almost,
Rupert Isaacson: sorry.
Yes.
Almost 20.
Okay.
And you guys run an equine assisted practice, Monique, I know you
are the main driver of this.
Yes.
Can you tell us a little bit about what you do, and then we're
gonna go to your story with Stan and how it's led to what you do.
So tell us about your practice.
Monique: Yes.
I have a practice where I do session with people all kind of things.
And that's where I have the, the, the beautiful colleague
of ever, and that's my horses.
Horses tell you everything you can lie to them and they will put a mirror on you,
but they also can put your system on.
And then, I mean, a system who can relaxing you, who makes you
zen, who puts on the nervous far.
We call about it.
And that's, that's when it's going to happen.
And especially people with autism who always are standing on, we, we call it
they're always beware of what is going to happen, what was see, so all the,
the how do you call it in, in English?
The, the, the centering.
They, they will, they will put it in and they, they don't know a way to put
it out and to, to getting regulated.
So, when I have someone with autism and he's standing by
the horse, it's already there.
The horse takes the, the, the extension away.
It's, it's, it's beautiful to see.
And the moment it's, it's happened that's, the kids are, are the
people who is, who are standing there, there, they, they, they have
right away another way of standing.
They are going to relax.
They feel their body, they are going out of the brain into the body.
And that's, that's a beautiful thing.
So that's what I do.
And also take the old family and holistic look at the family.
What is, what is happening with you?
What's happening with the parents when you have a kid with autism?
What is happening with the other kids?
How do, how do they go with that?
They have a lot to, to, to, to learn about yeah, their brother or sister and things
they don't want to learn because they also have their, their their own space.
They need their own space.
So there's a lot to learn.
Rupert Isaacson: Do you have the other family members come for the sessions with
you as well as just the autistic client?
Monique: Yes.
Yes I have.
And then when you have the old system, so the old family, you can
see what is happening and where the extensions begins and, and what is
happening, what is happening with dad, and what is happening with mom.
Mm-hmm.
And what is happening with the little sister, and why is she afraid, and
why are we going to scream at each other or what we don't understand?
And the important thing, I think, is to look at your child with autism.
What is he telling you without words?
Look at him, look at his eyes, look at his skin.
That are kind of things.
Look at his, his, his fingers.
How is he putting his fingers on?
That, that tells you a lot of information.
You can deal with it.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm intrigued when you say look at his skin.
Yes.
What do you mean by that?
Monique: When the extension is going too high, they, they are how do you call it?
Spear ness tension.
The, the muscle extension, the muscle tension.
You can see it.
There are
Husband: he's making fist.
He is
Monique: making fist.
He is he he is
Husband: looking for pressure.
He's look,
Monique: yeah.
Yeah.
Things like that.
He is, he is.
Sometimes they put also their hands behind their back to, to, to
look for the how do you call it?
The, the, the, the vegetarian line, I call it, right?
Rupert Isaacson: The, like the pressure on the kidneys and the adrenal glands.
Monique: I think, yes, yes.
And to feel where, where am I standing?
Where, where are my feet?
Where are my feet?
Because they need to regular.
And when they are standing to try to ground on the feets, they are getting
more space in the brain so that can bring them back into where they really are.
Rupert Isaacson: This is interesting.
You know, I absolutely agree with you.
I, obviously with Horse Boy, we try to involve as many family members
as we can, partly because for the reasons that you just outlined, but
also frankly, for selfish reasons.
I will learn more about your child if the brother and the sister are there,
because I don't know your kid, you know?
No.
And your kid doesn't trust me.
He doesn't know me and the brother and the sister, they know each other better
even than the parents know the child.
So often, the brother or the sister will say to me, oh, when he makes that noise,
it means this, or, yes, when, you know, don't do this, but make sure you do this.
This is really good information and I, I won't get it unless
I have some expert there.
So I also realize that I need to make my place attractive
to the brother and the sister.
Maybe they don't like horses, maybe they like football.
Mm-hmm.
Maybe they like martial arts.
Maybe they do like courses.
So I have to think about how do I design the session?
We call them play dates, you know?
Yeah.
How do I design the play date for those children?
And then of course the mother and the father can relax a little
bit because suddenly they see, oh, all of my children's needs
are being met in this place.
Yeah.
And then perhaps the brother who likes football, and I call my friend
who's a professional soccer coach and say, Hey, I need you on this one.
And suddenly he's getting amazing soccer coaching.
Yeah.
Because of his brother's autism.
Yeah.
And this changes the dynamic a little bit, or maybe the sister she's getting
riding lessons on really good horses.
You know, our horses are trained through the Grand Prix, some of them in dressage.
So we can give her these incredible experiences because
of her brother's autism.
And it changes the dynamic, you know?
I so agree.
And I, I'm always trying to encourage.
Practitioners to do this, but of course it can make life more difficult and sometimes
you get parents who are not so helpful.
I know, and I'm sure you know this and then you have to work with that, but
I, but I find that whether they are helpful or not, it's still optimal.
Yeah.
If they're all there in terms of the change that we can affect, it's, you know,
I'm very encouraged to hear you say this.
I'm also interested in what you said about skin because we noticed
very early with Rowan, with my son.
Mm-hmm.
And then with other children, we saw there was a pattern that right
before the meltdown, before the tantrum, before the negative thing,
they would often go very pale.
Yeah.
The color would go pale and you would see two little dark spots.
Under the eyes.
And eventually we realized this was lack of protein.
This was a blood sugar crash.
Monique: Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And that if we could get a little bit of protein into
them, it was a little bit like putting gasoline back in the brain drink.
Yeah.
And now we got to the point where we will always tell the parent or the
caregiver who's bringing the child, make sure that they, and you have had protein
30 minutes before you come, because cognitively it will make a difference.
And it was the skin color change.
That first alerted us to this, and now I see it in everybody.
Yeah.
Including myself.
Like there are sometimes when I'm like, yeah, and I look at myself
in the mirror, like, oh shit, I
Monique: something, where is it?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
So you have a practice, it's called ini.
Yes.
So that's incomp compassion.
Monique: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Why this word?
Why compassion?
Monique: Why compassion?
I'll tell you when I started to on my, on my practice, I,
I didn't have know name yet.
And I have searched and searched and in Latin and in English and,
and French and, and all kind of languages came through my mind.
But no, no, no.
It wasn't, it wasn't until, until, I have to go myself to
the hospital with emergency.
And after three days I became home and I was lying on the couch and suddenly the
name came up in compassion because it was time to look at myself in compassion.
It was time.
We have given a lot as, as parents, and it doesn't mind.
I do it right away, but I don't have to tell you what it's meant to have
a child with autism, what it costs on the energy and so, and that was the
moment I thought, yeah, in compassion.
So that's how I became to this name.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So let's dial back now.
Yeah.
Monique: Speaking
Rupert Isaacson: of the experience as a parent,
Monique: yes.
Rupert Isaacson: I want both of you to speak on this now.
Tell me about your journey with Stan.
Let's start at the beginning.
Husband: Okay.
Well, when when Stan was born, it was how do you say it?
A quick delivery.
When you say quick conflict, the labor went very fast.
In, in one hour.
Every the sun was there.
Okay.
I mean, and well, we were very happy of course, because it was our second son
and right away Monique said directly, there's something special about Sam.
As a parent your child always is special, but now she said
it in a, in a different way.
There's something special about Stan.
The first two years we didn't notice anything different, but after a few
years we noticed that he didn't develop as as the other children, especially
with with spoken words, et cetera.
And there were several times when there were loud noises or, or other
things or images, something like that.
He put his, he covered his ears because yeah, he, he, he
couldn't yeah, reflect him.
He didn't know what to do with it.
Then we went to the doctor and the doctor said we, perhaps he is deaf.
There's something wrong with his ears.
So, we went over there, they didn't see anything special and but, but he
still covered his ears and yeah, he did, still didn't develop as the other kids.
So after that we went to another doctor.
He did a lot of tests after that because they suspect that there was something
wrong in, in they suspect the autism.
They suspected autism.
Yes, yes.
Yeah.
And from there on okay, yeah, of course.
Okay.
First we were very.
Monique: Upset.
Husband: Upset.
Yeah.
Monique: Otherwise, we already knew something.
It, it wasn't not that strange.
She told us no, because deep inside we knew
Husband: there's something about someone.
It could be autism.
Yeah.
Yes, it could be autism.
Then we yeah, very quick.
We accepted the, the knowledge that that son had autism.
So from there on we, we just, yeah.
Put our minds, okay, how can we help son to, to get along with
his life on a, on a pleasant way.
So, we, we had a, a special case manager, autism, and she learned us by videos
we made of stem, how stem reacted.
In all kinds of, of circumstances and especially how we could well predict
when STEM was started to screen.
So we can how do you say that?
Monique: Regulate him.
Husband: Yeah.
Monique: Yeah.
Bye by going
Husband: get him back in his, his comfort zone.
Yes.
In instead of yeah, sensory processing.
S
Rupert Isaacson: So when you got him to his comfort zone?
Yeah.
Like bed or so?
Husband: No,
Rupert Isaacson: no, no, no.
What's the comfort zone?
Husband: No, no, no, no.
By getting like an, an example out the situation.
Yeah.
Out of the situation.
Okay.
Change the situation.
Yeah,
Monique: yeah, yeah.
SPR
Husband: or jump on a trampoline or, or squeeZ.
Him squeezing him something.
Something to get into the pressure.
Yeah.
Into his body.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
So change the environment.
Deep pressure active movement.
Yes.
Okay.
Outside preferably.
Okay.
Yeah.
This was a good, this was a good therapist that you found?
Yes.
Unusual.
She
Monique: is very good in her job.
Really?
Yeah.
She, she's very good.
She learns.
She, she has learned us a
Rupert Isaacson: lot.
Do, do you still work with this person?
Monique: No.
No.
She after I think about, she became here three years, I think.
Three years, yeah.
After three years.
And then she really told us.
You are so good as parents, you don't need me anymore.
Yeah, you can, you can do it your own.
And when she was walking through that door, you have something No, don't go.
I need you.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
But then
Monique: you are going to do it on your own and you are, and,
and it's became very well because
Rupert Isaacson: How old was he during this process this time?
Monique: It was about four years.
He was about four years.
Yeah.
He was, he was a little, a little one.
Really?
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, so she shows you, the therapist, shows you some good techniques for Yes.
Yeah.
Sensory processing for changing the environment, for Yes.
Giving deep pressure, et cetera, movement.
Yes.
What happens next?
What,
Monique: What happens next?
Well,
Husband: when he was eight, eight years old.
We heard about yeah, very good results of children who had dolphin therapy in Uraba.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Husband: Yeah.
And we knew the man who was well, the arranged everything, yeah, arranged
Rupert Isaacson: that, that kind of journeys to kids.
How did you know this man out of interest?
Monique: He his how do you call it?
His, his
Husband: He went to kindergarten and there was a teacher.
Okay.
Oh, yes.
You told us about that.
That Ah, yeah.
Yeah.
And so we made contact and then you, there was they put you on a list.
You had.
It's, it's a, it's a foundation where you have to do all, all kinds of things
to raise money so you can get with yeah.
With your family.
With your family to dolphin therapy.
And
Rupert Isaacson: they, okay.
Husband: They pay you the, the, the ticket, eh, to, to fly
over there and and the therapy.
They, they, is
Rupert Isaacson: this, I'm just looking online now.
Is this the URA Dolphin Therapy and Research Center?
Yeah.
Husband: Yes, that's it.
Say it c say
Rupert Isaacson: it.
CDTC.
Yeah.
I've pulled it up on my Google.
It looks really interesting.
Okay.
You raise the money, you go.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
And what happens?
Monique: What happens?
Well, the first time we went over there, Stan was screaming in front of the plane.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Monique: Well, my my teeth are rolling.
And but we went over there and it was, it was amazing what happens over there
because Stan couldn't still talk.
We don't have any, the logic with him, he, we, we couldn't, we, we didn't know
how it, how it, how, how he was feeling when, when he was sad or happy or nothing.
Right.
So, over there you have to go two weeks you are over there.
Yeah.
And you are swimming with the dolphins five times a week.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
And,
Monique: Also the other kids, they get a special program to put them
also in the lights because Yeah, they have to do a lot things.
They don't want to because they have a brother with autism.
So then it is also especially for them yeah.
And for us it was also an eyeopener because you see a lot things happen.
You, you don't have the time before that because you are always
busy to, to have your family good and, and get it well done.
Everything.
And, and so over there Stan goes to the ducks and they are squeeze them.
They, they had a lot of send your
Husband: regulation.
Regulation.
Yeah.
Monique: And then they are going to, practice with him with
letters from the alphabet and they recognize he was very good while
Rupert Isaacson: he's with the dolphin.
Yes.
Or after he's been with the dolphin?
No, he was
Monique: with the dolphin.
It was on and off.
He was a little time on the dock.
Then they are doing a practice with him On the
Rupert Isaacson: dock.
Monique: On the dock, yes.
And then it, it was about a minute or 10, I think.
And then he gave to swim with the dolphins.
Yeah.
And then he swim for 10 minutes and then they are doing a practice again.
And that was for an hour.
Rupert Isaacson: So they'd, he'd swim with the dolphin, then they'd
go onto the dock, work on letters, work on How would they work on
letters when they were on the dock?
Monique: Ah,
Husband: What they, what they did was they showed some a letter.
Mm.
They, they pronounced it, how, how do you call that?
Letter?
And every time when Stu said it right, the, the dolphin did a trick.
Oh.
So they, they stimulated Stu to, to say the right word they,
and to pronounce it right.
And he get he got a reward by a trick from the dolphin.
From Dolphin, dolphin.
The
Rupert Isaacson: reward was the dolphin did something cool.
Yes, yes.
This is really interesting.
Always.
Husband: It almost looked like like, like, like Pavlov.
If, if you a lot, eh,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
But that's my kind of Pavlov.
If you're going to, if you're gonna do that with me, then yeah.
Have a dolphin do something.
Cool.
I will probably be motivated.
Yeah.
I mean, yeah.
I've got, can I ask a couple of practical questions?
I'm, I'm.
I'm really intrigued.
So something which I've seen can be tricky when you are working with
children in the ocean or in water.
Mm-hmm.
Is the sensory issue of putting on a wetsuit or putting on a
flirtation device or something.
Mm-hmm.
We used to do autism surf camps in California.
Mm-hmm.
We probably would do it again.
We just got busy with other things and some kids there was no problem at all.
Other kids, you really, of course, had to work for some time on
just the wetsuit or something.
So were there any issues like this with Stan or with other kids that you saw?
And then of course after that there's the water and then
there's the big animal itself.
So can you just talk to me?
Yeah.
The sensory issues of.
Whatever equipment he had to have on his body, the sensory issues
of the water, and then the sensory slash fear of this big dolphin.
Like what was, what was, how did it progress for him?
Monique: Well, the wetsuit there was a little thing because it is, yeah, from,
from his, his angle till his shoulder.
It was and but he, he, yeah.
When he knew I'm going into the water, it seems like it was okay
because I think that's our lock stand is very good in the water.
Okay.
He's a very good swimmer.
Yeah.
And he's not afraid of dos.
He likes it.
He get a special yeah.
Vest arm I don't know how you call it, pressure vest.
The pressure vest that keeps him above the water because otherwise
he had Oh, a flotation Yeah.
Device.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah,
Monique: yeah, yeah.
But our son, he would, every time he would like to die with the
dolphins, when the dolphins, yeah.
Going to die, he thought okay, I'm going with you.
But it couldn't because he had that crazy, so,
Rupert Isaacson: and this, how did he react to that?
Monique: It, it it goes very well, but he was the lucky man because after a day or
10 by getting therapy, his therapist told us he may go diving with the dolphins.
Rupert Isaacson: Wow.
Okay.
Yeah.
So the,
Monique: the thing we said it is okay, but please dive with him because
he doesn't know anything about.
How deep the dolphin is going or, yeah.
So please, and go with him.
And they have done that, and it was beautiful.
He was, yeah, he was, he was, yeah.
Ecstatic.
It was, it was beautiful.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: How long did the sessions with the dolphin last?
About an hour.
Husband: Yeah.
The, the, the whole session was two hours.
Was two hours, yeah.
The first hour they were on the docks and doing therapy like, like squeezing
and, and he had to make puzzles at et cetera that kind of stuff.
He didn't like that at the first at the first three or four
times he was screaming a lot.
But after that he, he well, he recognized that if he did the, the.
The, the playing and the therapy.
Right.
Is reward again, was swimming with the dolphins and that he, he, he liked a lot.
And the total session was, was two hours, five days a week at the same time.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Now you told me when we were speaking before I hit record you
told me that he became really verbal during his time with the Dolphins.
Can you describe the before, during, and after of that process?
Husband: Well, I mentioned already he, when when things were difficult
for Sam, for Sam to understand because it, it, it was well, it, it, yeah,
just, it was too difficult for him.
He, he didn't understand what, what they wanted from him or
what to do or what to see.
Something like that.
He can, could only express his, his, his feelings by screaming because
he, he didn't talk at all after.
And, and, and my Monique just mentioned how we went to, into
the plane with a lot of screaming.
And when we went back, he didn't scream at all because the most important
thing we've learned over there is when we predict what's going to happen.
For some it, it, it is, it gives him a lot of rest.
He feels comfortable, comfortable about knowing what is going to happen.
That's one of the things we've, we've learned over there.
We also have learned to, to look at some and go with his with his tempo,
with his way, his rhythm of living.
Yeah.
That, that are the most important things we, we've learned.
Yes.
Over there.
Monique: Yes.
And, and the, the thing about the, the, the words he, he, he was learning the,
the, the letters, the words, the we are people who like to talk and we talk a lot,
but because we think we can, everything arrange with talking, talking, talking.
But silence is saying much more.
And that was also with Stan when when we went over there and they saw
he was doing it very well with his letters and, and that kind of thing.
And we came home school picked it up also.
His teacher said, okay, that's very nice to hear.
We are going further with that.
We taken that, that kind of therapy.
Further with him so he can learn words and we call it in Dutch word build.
And so he had word,
Rupert Isaacson: image.
Word?
Word image.
Word picture.
Yeah.
Monique: And, and because he, he visual, he's, he's very strong.
And that was his way to learn words and learn the meaning of
the words, because that was also what makes him uncomfortable.
Because when we are talking, there are a lot of words.
He doesn't say anything to him.
He, he understand, what are you talking about?
I hear a lot of noise, but I don't know what you are telling
me or what are you talking about?
So that, that makes extension a lot, a lot of more and, and, and, yeah.
So he became to screaming, et cetera, et cetera.
And when school, yeah.
Take it over from there.
Yeah.
They, they, he makes, he makes, yeah.
Husband: The screaming.
Yeah.
Went away.
Went
Monique: when, after a few, yeah.
Yeah.
It
Husband: stopped.
Totally.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And he, when he came back from the Dolphins, he was able to talk,
he was able to express his needs and say,
Hungry Mommy, I'm thirsty.
Or was it still in the early stages?
Monique: No, he still doesn't do that.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Monique: He still doesn't do that.
It's never when he came back at home then he will go for his drink and
his candy, but he will never tell us from himself what he has done.
Never.
We always have to ask
Rupert Isaacson: him.
Okay.
Monique: Yeah.
He will never.
Rupert Isaacson: When, can you describe how he is verbal now?
Like how you, how he would talk to you?
Monique: Well, we recognize that his meaning is, is a lot bigger of words.
So he can in that way explain what, what you want.
That is, that is going very well.
And that's his progress he made.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give me an example?
Husband: Well,
Monique: yeah.
Husband: First of all in the beginning when we asked him how was school,
it was good and nothing more.
Rupert Isaacson: That sounds like many kids.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Husband: It was like, I know.
But when you asked what have you, what what have you done on
school have you done at school?
He didn't say anything, but now he he tells us in in, in a few words,
i, I have I have swing, I have puzzled, I have been with the animals.
So yeah, that kind of of words.
He used to tell us what he what his day was, what his
day was what his day like was.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: And okay.
So you, when he came back from URA South the first time, 'cause
I know you went two times.
Yes.
What would you say, how was he speaking after that first trip?
How was he using words?
Monique: Very functional.
Yeah.
Stan is a boy who was very functional.
So he get his, his things he needs
Husband: by drinking, by, yes, by food, by,
Rupert Isaacson: playing.
So would he say, would he ask for things or how was he expressing himself?
Yes.
Monique: Well, that became so about the years.
He, he he's going to to do that a lot more.
When he don't want anything or he don't want to tell us anything more, then he,
he, he said to ans to us, no, not anymore.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Monique: So that's, that's something he has learned.
When I don't want anything anymore, I have to tell them.
Rupert Isaacson: And this began after Carissa?
Yes.
Monique: And yes.
Yes, yes, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
This is really interesting.
I often when I'm giving people trainings, I tell them, you must
value negative communication as highly as positive communication.
Yeah.
Because when you're dealing with somebody who's nonverbal, if they tell you what
they don't like and what they don't want, this is massive progress, you know?
Yeah.
Please tell me what else you don't want to do.
And of course, in normal parenting, this is regarded as you know, a real
problem when the kids are negative and they, but of course, from our point
of view, often things happen that way.
First.
No, I don't want, and I suppose in a way it is the same with neurotypical IE normal
kids, they usually actually start with no.
Yeah.
At two years old, you know, now and then from, that's the first self-advocacy.
So you saw that after Issa the first time?
Yes.
You went back again, how long between the two, was it the next year, three years?
Three years.
Three years?
Why, why three years?
And tell me what happened on the second trip.
Monique: Well, he did it very good at school and you have
also the time to make that, that money you needed to go out there.
Okay.
So, you are when you went out there, you going beneath or do you call it?
At last on the, on the, on the, on the list?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Okay.
You
Monique: start all over again to
Rupert Isaacson: get on top.
To
Monique: get on top,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.
Oh, I see.
There's a list.
Monique: Yes, yes, yes.
There's a list.
And so you have to do things to, to get your money again, to go over there.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Monique: So, that's why.
And then when when it is already there and you can go to Cura South,
then also has to be there some place
to go.
So, that's why the three years.
Got it.
Yes.
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Okay.
So tell me what happened on that second trip.
Monique: Well, we had still a little thing because Stan still
wearing diapers at that age.
At that age
Rupert Isaacson: he would be by then 12.
Yeah, 11.
Monique: Yeah.
Yeah.
So that was our next thing.
We, that
Husband: that was our main goal.
Monique: Goal, yeah.
Yeah.
And well, it, it also went very well, not directly.
Because when we went over there, they have done a lot of other things instead
of wearing the di the, the diaper and, and doing something about that.
It's actually almost the same when I am working with my horses.
It's, it's in the moment what, what, what tells the horse what to do.
So, and it was also with the dolphins.
So the second time yeah.
What, what had they do?
They, they, they make him,
Husband: especially, they learn how Yeah.
To, to wait.
Yeah.
And to get the patience about things he want or or otherwise
things we have to do first.
Before we can help or we can do things with some That's the, the, the, yeah.
Most important thing.
They have learned him to wait and they also have, have learned us to because
we always had the focus on some, but we also have two other children
and they also need our attention.
But when we were doing something with the other children and we saw
that Stu was asking for us, or, or he was was was high in his yeah.
In extension.
Yeah, in extension.
Then we sort automatically went to Stu to help him, and they say that's not, well,
not quite fair to the other children.
So we have learned to say Tostan, no stem.
Monique: Not now what?
Husband: Not now.
You have to wait for a moment, but after this we come to you.
Yeah.
And that also went with as, as Stum asked for, can I get some candy?
We said and it also was almost dinner time, something like that.
Then we said to stone, no stone, you can't have candy, but you can
get a banana or something like that, something else instead.
So we learned to, to bend things that weren't quite right for
stone into group things and Yeah.
Monique: Yeah.
And patience.
Yeah.
And he learned quite well.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So, but did the toilet training with the diapers advance during the second trip?
Monique: No.
Well, no.
That's not quite right.
It became better when we went home.
And after that he only had it by nights.
Yeah.
Okay.
He was wearing a diaper, so that went very well.
And I think about when he was, I think 13.
Yeah, something like that.
He didn't wear it at all.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Tell me, finish
Monique: with it.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I'm, I'm interested to know what did they do in Issa
to target the toilet training, but
Monique: actually nothing because they have other targets with him.
Rupert Isaacson: So why do you think it changed to only
nights after that second trip?
Monique: Well, we think that because he became to learn better how, how his, how
his body was working and how his tension.
He could regular it on better ways he gets space in his mind.
And so he get also a signal I have to go to the bathroom.
Yeah.
And that was and that, that was also what we have learned from, from
Charles with, with with autism that they don't get a single right away.
And and that was with, with Stan, he he get a sign, I, I have to sign on
the, on the single, and I, I, I have, I have to go to the bathroom and yeah.
From, from from, yeah.
The, the, yeah.
Well,
Husband: the, the most important lesson we've learned, and that's
with a lot of things with Stu.
Stu does things when he is ready, ready
Monique: for it.
Yeah.
Husband: You can't push things.
To, to get it, to get it done.
Because if he isn't ready in his mind and in his body you don't get resolved.
So you have to recognize when he's ready to, to learn something, to
accept something, to do something,
Rupert Isaacson: you know,
listening to the story.
I can also imagine some things happening in his brain during this time
with the dolphins because you going somewhere very new, very different.
I very be surprising in a good way.
Yeah.
Magical, you know, this time with dolphins and of course what happens
and a lot of movement involved and a lot of natural sensory stuff.
You're in water, you're with the big animal, you are, you've got the,
sensory, comfort of the deep pressure of the person in the water with you.
All of these things.
And with this comes a neurological reaction.
Yeah, accelerated, which we would call neuroplasticity, but specifically
the production of a protein in the brain, which happens whenever
you do something new basically.
Particularly if it's physical moving and problem solving effectively.
And that's a protein with a, its name is four letters, BDNF, brain
derived neurotrophic factor.
When you do something with what one calls novel movement, let's
say you sit on a horse, let's say you're going in the water.
Let's say you run across.
A field.
Yeah.
It's very different running across a field to running on a playground
because on the playground you don't need to think too much.
Where do my feet go?
On the field, you must think because if you put your foot in the
wrong place, you fall over because there's a little hole or something.
So your mind has to be more active.
You go with the dolphin, you go with the horse.
This effect is amplified.
And so you get incredible amounts of neuroplasticity, of brain development
in these types of situation.
And then of course, this could be very scary, which would shut
down the brain development.
But of course he's there with the family.
He's there with all this love.
He's there.
There's I'm sure all kinds of.
Heart resonance coming from the dolphin, which has a very big heart
throwing off an electromagnetic field.
Yeah.
Yes, indeed.
It's very big.
And of course the dolphin being this hyper intelligent com, you know,
social compassionate animal is doing all kinds of work with him on a level
that we can't even probably see.
You put all this together, I can see how he could come back from
that experience, able to regulate his toileting, for example, because
of the, the brain development.
Okay, so we've talked about dolphins and this is wonderful, and actually I'm
going to have these guys on the show.
I'm going to reach out to them, even though it's not equine, it's still,
you know, large animals and nature.
Yeah.
We need to talk to these people.
Clearly they will have things that we can learn from, but let's go to horses now.
So, Monique, you are a horse woman?
Yes.
Were you always a horse woman?
Yes.
Monique: Grew up with
Rupert Isaacson: it.
I'm nearly
Monique: born in the unstable.
Okay, okay.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So since you were a kid, horses.
Horses, right?
Yes.
And were you having horses, owning horses while Stan was in
his early years of development?
Yes.
And what was Stan's involvement or interaction with these horses?
Monique: Yes.
We've always had horses and when we get this, this house where we are living now
I have my horses standing by our house.
They were first standing with my parents, but then they moved to us.
Okay.
And yeah.
Stu and animals are just one.
That's okay.
If it is a prock a dog, a cat, a horse, never.
Mines where animals are there is stem and with a horse.
We had a pony called Oscar, and Oscar is a lovely horse.
And what he did, he had a very big buckets and he put it behind
the top there, you call it.
Yeah.
And he was standing on.
And he was for an hour busy with a horse to go on the back of the horse.
Rupert Isaacson: So he used the bucket to climb on top?
Monique: Yes, yes.
But the horse fought then.
Oh no.
Ride it there.
That's, that's, that's better food.
So I'm going to walk over there.
And Stan was then taking the bucket with him, put it on
the ground again, stand on it.
And so he was for an hour busy with this horse.
It was lovely to see.
And when he sat on his back, he was enjoying it.
He was just sitting there, just look over what, what, what kind of birds
was were, were, were flying in the air.
What he saw, what he was feeling like what, and he Yeah, he was, he
was really zen when he was with the
Rupert Isaacson: horse.
And how long this, and, sorry.
Okay.
At this point, you are not running in capacity.
You don't have a practice?
No.
What do you do you doing for a living?
Are you just busy being a mom because you have three kids and a special needs kid?
Are you Yes.
Trying to do a job.
Monique: Yes.
I had a job.
But when we knew it was a very busy Trix, we call it, I think.
Yeah.
Therapy with our family, yeah.
It was very stressful.
Also for us.
My husband just became his own office and our daughter was very little.
And I thought, no, no.
Working by job elsewhere, it's, it's not gonna bring us that, that we need it.
Yeah.
So, I stopped my job.
I was working also on the office and I was full-time mom.
I liked it, but most of all, I think our family became in,
in another, another dimension.
We, we get spaces.
We, we, yeah, there was, there was, yeah, we, we, it was
Rupert Isaacson: time.
Yeah, time.
Yeah.
We
Monique: get another energy in our house.
So, and that was very, very nice.
And I did some other college because I don't want to sit, just sit being a mom.
I also want to develop so, I did how do you call it?
Yeah.
Yeah, I did some developing college skills, champion, develop and, and,
so, and then I thought, yeah, yeah, but I have horses and I have the
experience of our son, and when I put it in a big bucket and I'm going
to do something about that, maybe something beautiful is going to happen.
And so, my practice in Compe came and I thought there is when I see my
own experience, what my bosses bring me in times that weren't that nice.
I thought, yeah, yeah, I would like to give other ones also this.
I, I, I think, I really think with all the experience I have, we have, we can
learn other parents how you can deal with a child like Stu who has autism.
There is.
Such a lot to learn in our for example, temple Grandin, you know,
where it was, it was our inspiration.
And I've put it also in, in our blog from Ura Sao, what she brings us.
And always she is, she is coming in my mind when I, when I have it
a little bit difficult for myself, then I think of Temple Grandin.
When you are throwing the other door open, then go for it because
there are other things you can see.
And, and yeah, it brings us a lot.
And also in my practice with the horses, because that's the other door, the,
the, the horses they are just there.
And when you are in the neighborhoods of horses, it'll just started.
It starts to brings you yeah.
Such, such more, I don't, I don't know.
I, how can I, yeah.
I always, yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
I mean, you're preaching to the converted here because we all
Monique: Yeah, yeah.
Everyone
Rupert Isaacson: listening to this show, we, we know the
value of the horse in Yeah.
Various ways.
And what they bring a question though.
How old was Stan when you started your income capacity practice?
Monique: Well, I have now my practice for only three years.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yeah.
So you had to develop a lot of time for him.
Yes.
So by the time he was sort of in his late teens Yeah.
Yes.
You, to turn your attention Yes.
To saying, how do I help other families?
Yes.
Got it.
Okay.
So I'd like to talk a little bit about how you run your practice,
but before that, everyone will want to know how is Stan doing now?
Where is he at?
You know, and, and just for, the listeners and viewers,
Stan does not just have autism.
He also does have an inter a diagnosed intellectual disability
in parallel with the autism.
Yeah.
So, one's expectations and so on must be to some degree directed by this,
but just so that people understand the this neurological geography of, of Yes.
So, so, so tell us, you know, where is Stan now?
What's his life?
What's his day?
What's, yeah.
And then let's get to encompassing.
Monique: Yes.
Well, he is going for now for five days a week to how do you, how do we call that
earlier special daycare, special daycare.
Yeah, something like that.
Their
Rupert Isaacson: services sort of thing.
Yeah,
Monique: yeah, yeah.
Where he can also go to animals.
Yeah.
And he is a very he's in a, in a very active group with the other
Husband: yeah, they're working a lot.
Yeah.
Monique: They're,
Husband: they're, they're swinging.
They're, they're, they, they're constantly busy with him.
You
Rupert Isaacson: told before in a certain way.
He's in, they're in nature a lot.
What do they do in nature?
Monique: Yes, they are going riding with car and horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So he's 49
Monique: and then they go into the forest.
Yeah.
He likes that a lot.
He also goes to they have a donkey.
They have chicken they have
Rupert Isaacson: at the daycare.
Is it like a castle?
Is it what you would call a care farm?
Monique: Kind of that, kind of that, but they also have
a lot of sports they can do.
Okay.
All they light.
Yeah.
So, there are, who goes to the gym?
There are they, they going swimming?
They are, they go for a long walk.
Some they are going to, to do some shopping in the village.
They also, so they have to go for a walk.
And when he is busy with his buddy.
Buddy, yeah.
Yeah.
Then, then his mind's getting, getting the opportunity to, to learn to develop.
So that's very beautiful to see.
And
Rupert Isaacson: what is he learning?
Monique: Well, we are we are recognized that, that he is giving much more meaning
to words and he can explain things better.
And he is happier on his way.
It, it, it doesn't.
Custom.
Yeah.
Husband: And he takes initiative to, to tell something.
Yeah.
What, what has happened that day?
What he has seen.
He wants to tell us things.
Yeah.
He wants to tell us.
Yeah.
But he
Monique: also we had a couple of weeks ago it was a holiday
and we should went to the sea.
To the beach.
Yeah.
To the beach.
Yeah.
And the big beach he call it.
And so I told him, okay, and, and what do we need?
And he begin to talk.
I, I thought, no, no, you can write.
I told him, here, take a pen.
Take a pencil and a paper and put it on the paper.
And so he did.
And so he began to write it down what we had to need for that day.
Mm-hmm.
Husband: Yeah.
Wow.
Wonderful.
He made a, he made a list of about six or seven things he, he went
to get with him to the beach.
Yes.
But
Monique: in a way that he was also happy.
It wasn't, it, it, he was happy to do it.
And that's what we recognize what he is doing now.
It doesn't, it doesn't take that much energy of him.
He likes to do it because he can, and a couple of years ago it, he can't.
Yeah, because, because he couldn't do it.
No, because he, he did, he,
Husband: it always looked like he was under pressure to do, to do it something.
Rupert Isaacson: Right, right.
Not spontaneous.
Yeah.
Quite understand.
Husband: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Yes.
Wonderful.
Okay.
And he's still obviously involved in animals in nature.
And then when he's at home with you, while there's horses around, there's Yes.
Yes.
We have
Monique: two dogs.
We have two cats.
Yeah.
So he's always always into dogs.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me about his interaction with the dogs.
Monique: Well, he has one particularly that's it's, it's a Labrador
and that's really his buddy.
Yeah.
When he's coming home he is taking some time after the computer.
Then we are going for a eat, and then he is going to take the dog for a walk.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Monique: And also with the horses when they are going somewhere,
they are one, they are really one where the darkest is Stu.
And where Stu is, is the dark and everyone in the neighborhood knows it.
And yeah, he's doing very well with it.
Husband: Completely on his own.
On his own for about an hour or an hour and a half.
He's, he's gone with the dogs in, in nature and then Yes.
And he
Monique: has he gets a GPS on it
Rupert Isaacson: so we know
Monique: Yeah.
A tracker.
So we know where he is.
Rupert Isaacson: And also the dog always knows the way home, presumably.
Yes,
Monique: yes.
Yeah, yeah.
With ice closed.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I remember when with my son Ron, when he was first
coming to visit us in Germany.
He loves to be given challenges, so I would give him challenge.
Okay.
I I'm gonna drop you there in the car.
On the top of that mountain with the dog, and you are gonna find your way home.
You can GPS it, but the dog is gonna say it.
None of it.
Yeah.
You, you, you can just, yeah.
Yeah.
Wonderful.
Yeah.
And it really worked.
It, it's, it's very beautiful to see how each type of animal really does bring
out a different aspect of the human.
And it's, it's something which I'm often encouraging our equine
practitioners to think beyond the horse.
You know, horses, they're fantastic.
They do all these amazing things, but don't limit yourself because what if this
person is not so motivated by the horse?
Or maybe they were motivated by the horse, but for some reason now they
lose that enthusiasm a little bit.
My own son, for example, he's gone in and out of horses.
Over his life, and sometimes he's really into the horse and sometimes, ah, it's
not so much, and I must go with this.
Monique: Yeah.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, I need
Rupert Isaacson: more than that.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: So as you know, we work with all kinds of animals and
nature but sometimes horse people can be a little bit autistic themselves
and it's just very horse, you know.
I am similar, you know, if you leave me to myself, I'm just horse, horse,
horse, horse, horse, horse, horse.
But I, I realize that there are some limitations.
No thanks.
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then
you've probably also always wondered a little bit about the old master system.
of dressage training.
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step
exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse
of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional
well being of the horse and the rider.
Intrigued?
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Go to our website, Helios Harmony.
Check out the free introduction course.
Take it from there.
Okay, so Stan is doing really well, and now you are in a, in a position to
give your experience to other families.
Talk us through okay.
Let's say I am an autism dad and I find my way to.
Your website.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: I make contact with you.
I'm new.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell me how it will go.
Monique: Yeah.
Well, first of all, I'm going to invite you of course, and the first thing I, I
do when I get someone here who is Alre, where I already knew he is autistic I
look at his body, what is he telling me?
And that's very important because we have talked it earlier.
The body is telling me everything.
And I quite often see that when I have a session with a mom or dad
or who are also autistic or the kid they are going to look for something.
Diarying the sissy to regulate themselves.
So it's about a bracelet a earing their hair.
They find stuff.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, we all stem
Monique: Yes, all of us
Rupert Isaacson: to Yes.
Regulate ourselves.
Yes, yes.
Monique: Especially when it's going to be difficult, then Yeah.
Then oh, oh, oh my gosh, I have so regulate because
this, this is very difficult.
This.
Yeah.
And that's what triggers me.
And when I throw it back at them then I get the answers.
Yeah.
It is difficult.
Yeah.
Emotions are difficult for me.
Yeah.
This is a big part for of me.
So.
That's my comm communication.
And are you always
Rupert Isaacson: asking the whole family to come, or as
many family members as possible?
Or do you start with just the kid, or how do you, how do you go?
Monique: Yeah.
Just what they want, because I always have the respect of them.
What is what you need and what is it, what you want?
I want to give a lot.
Mm-hmm.
But it also, it I want to know what do you want and what do you need
and how does it go all the way?
So, sometimes I began with the parents.
They said, said also, well, first us fine.
Fine.
Okay.
So sometimes
Rupert Isaacson: you'll do your first consultation with just the parents.
Yes.
And sometimes I know that's a good idea.
Monique: Yeah.
Yeah.
And sometimes they told me well, here we are.
And then therefore they old family.
Okay.
Also good.
So it's really yeah, I, I, I feel it.
Like, what is my intuition tells me what to do.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
So how do your horses enter the picture?
Monique: What do you mean by that?
Rupert Isaacson: How do you, okay, now the parents have come or the family has come.
You're observing their bodies.
You're, you are finding out what they need to regulate themselves and so on.
Now you're going to add a horse.
Monique: Yes.
Yes.
How,
Rupert Isaacson: how does this happen?
Monique: Yes.
I'm going to look for the horses.
What he's telling me, is he standing by the stomach?
Is he breathing out?
Is he walking the horse?
Yes, the horse, that kind of thing.
Rupert Isaacson: So is the horse coming into a space with the person now?
Yes.
Okay.
Yes,
Monique: yes, yes.
And, I also, when the knees are there I have also a little boy who
I have put on the pony because he came from the hospital and he was
sent from a specialist over there.
He had some problem to go to the bathroom just like our son.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Monique: And that mother calls me and tells me that, oh, and he can't
go to the, and he has medicine and I don't want that medicine anymore.
I want to go in for himself to go to the bathroom.
Can you please help me?
Of course.
Come over here and we gonna have a look.
And that boy became two times here and he go to the bathroom.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Riding on the back,
Monique: riding on the deck of the horse and he go to the bathroom.
He
Rupert Isaacson: took a poo on the horse.
Monique: Yeah.
Yeah.
Wonderful.
And that's exactly what we are doing.
And that's also what you are doing with the kids who on the horse
and your story with, with Rowan.
So I had to think about you when it, when it happens.
I thought, yeah, this, this kind of story.
And now I have it myself, my own.
So the mother is very glad about that, but now, okay.
The new school year has became and, and become, and, and she's calling
me again because the kid has a lot of tension and new again, he doesn't go
to the toilet, so we have to go again.
It's, it is, yeah.
I don't mind 'cause I know it's gonna be all right and I know where
it's from that get a lot of tension.
So it will be, be going all right after a few times.
Rupert Isaacson: So you do work with people riding as
well as people on the ground?
Yes.
How do you decide
how to proceed?
Monique: What the question of the parents is I only put children on the podium.
Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Not parents.
Okay.
Monique: No, the parents are always standing besides the horse.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
So the children, I put them on the horses and I also learned them.
Other things, also school things.
We have special therapy we call it different learning by horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
And
Monique: that's for child.
The who, who doesn't come
Husband: come along with, come along with, yeah, with, with
words and, and mathematics.
Yeah.
Something like that.
Rupert Isaacson: And is that something you've developed yourself or is that No.
No.
So that program that you use, that's an outside program?
Monique: Yes, yes.
I've learned that
Rupert Isaacson: learning with horses, it's called,
Monique: Yes, it's, yes.
Rupert Isaacson: And is that a, a, a Dutch thing or is that a yes?
Yeah.
Okay.
So tell me how that works.
Monique: Yes, it is.
Well, finally, you are going back in time how we learned on school.
Mm-hmm.
That's the part they, they don't give it on that way anymore on school.
So, what
Rupert Isaacson: do you mean?
Monique: What do I mean?
Rupert Isaacson: Learning through repetition.
Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Monique: yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And it is, it is the same as the mother with, with her boy
who doesn't go to the toilet.
Mm-hmm.
Now the horse is the biggest friend of that child
Rupert Isaacson: who,
Monique: who, who counts read or, or writes or, or something like that.
And when the horse is with him, it goes on.
It goes because the, the tension is gone and there's another, so
Rupert Isaacson: when, when you are working with the academic stuff
on the horses, the learning with horses, are you using the horse's
movement as a rhythm to then create repe repetition of saying things and
giving information into the brain?
Yes.
Sometimes.
Is it working like that?
Monique: Sometimes.
And we also do some, some how do you call it, to bags?
Yeah.
Bags.
Bags right.
And, and left mm-hmm.
On the child when they are on the horses.
Mm-hmm.
And then we tell them to take something out of the left, back with the right hand.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Okay.
Also crossing the midline, you want them to Yes.
Yes.
That's also for the BDNF in the brain, right?
Monique: Exactly.
Exactly.
Rupert Isaacson: But when you are dealing with an academic concept, like
say numbers and you are doing this on the horse, tell me how it works.
How, how are you doing it?
Monique: We have a couple of things, how we do it.
Sometimes first we do it when they take the horse beside them.
So they walk with the horse.
Yeah.
And then just simply from one till 10 or we put how do you call it?
Yeah, many of further mm-hmm.
But, but yeah.
Let's keep it easy.
My English is not that good.
How can I explain it?
The,
Husband: the practice from the numbers from 0, 10, 20, 30, 45.
Rupert Isaacson: Counting.
Yes.
Counting.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you could count steps.
You could count, yes.
Yes.
But okay.
But let's say you want to do arithmetic.
Let's say you want to do division.
How would you do that?
Monique: What do you mean exactly?
Rupert Isaacson: Well, for example, when I was teaching my son numbers and letters
on the horse, initially what happened was I would, I followed his interests, right?
So he loved the Lion King.
Mm-hmm.
So I would be singing the Lion King songs.
Don't worry, I'm not going to sing now.
And then I would take the ca a character like say.
Zu and I would put the letters of Zazu on these different trees.
Yes, we would ride, but you know, at least 30 seconds of
riding in between each letter.
Mm-hmm.
So the trees are at a distance.
We can also learn what is this tree, et cetera.
And then at the end there'd be a little toy of azi and he learned
to put the letters together.
And then from there, very quickly it went out to reading.
Similarly with numbers I would start with counting, counting
the steps of the horse and so on.
And then counting things from the horse.
Yeah.
But then I could get friends and family members to stand together.
One of them wears a silly hat that one has to go.
So push that one away, making farts.
Because it's funny.
And then we see how many are left and then this person starts to
cry because they're by themselves.
So we have to put them back.
And how many have we got?
And then say that's adding and subtracting.
But then with division let's say I had six people in a line, I would say
to Rowan, do you think they can run?
Let's see if they can run.
And then we'd go behind.
And of course I've told the people what we're gonna do,
and then we come really fast.
In the Gallup?
Yeah.
In the middle going.
And the two groups of three go and they run away to each side.
And then we have, oh, look, we've got two groups of three, so you know,
six divided by two is three, blah.
And then we round them up.
With farts, multiply six times two, like a cowboy, a farting cowboy,
you know, and suddenly we have multiplication and we found that
this kind of thing worked very well.
Are you doing something similar, or is it, does it happen differently with you?
Monique: Yeah, it, it is, it is only with a child.
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.
Monique: So there are no other people, people
Rupert Isaacson: around,
Monique: around?
No.
Okay.
No.
Rupert Isaacson: And how, let's, so let's say it was something
like the using of the numbers.
Monique: Mm-hmm.
Rupert Isaacson: Can you give us an example?
Monique: Yeah.
I can sometimes I put a clock, um mm-hmm.
On the ground.
And I will ask them how, how late it is when they are already doing that.
So, so it's, it's, eh, also what you also told put numbers around in the certain
world or I let them search for it.
It's also something Yes.
Sometimes I let 'em search for it.
And I put a number on and I thought, well go for, look for the same numbers,
and then they have to pronounce it also.
Mm-hmm.
What kind of number do you have?
Sometimes I put also the words under the number so they have it both.
So they have, and the number and the words.
So, for example two, then they also have, have the word two.
Mm-hmm.
Under the number.
So there are a couple of ways.
I can yeah, teach them.
Rupert Isaacson: And is this generally with younger kids or is it all ages?
Monique: Most of our till 12 years.
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.
Yes.
And what is, would you say the most complex mathematical thing that you would
Monique: do?
Mm, that's a difficult question because every child has his own difficulty,
so, yeah, that's a difficult question.
I cannot really say this, this thing is really on top of it or something.
No, no.
I'm
Rupert Isaacson: just thinking, for example, when, when I was finishing
the extent of my abilities with maths, which are not very big, the process
that I just described with Rowan was about as much as I could really
do because I'm not a mathematician.
So I then made contact with a really good mathematician.
Mm-hmm.
Who understood what we were doing with movement.
Yeah.
With the horse and with not, and he's this guy called Dr.
Alfred Siegler.
He's German, and he was a physics professor at the University of Abrook and
an old family friend of my wife's family.
He understood the need for movement, so we asked him to come up with.
Modules, teaching modules that we could do for children who were
needing to go to more advanced levels.
Mm-hmm.
And we found it was extraordinary that we could teach things like how
to calculate the area of a circle or how to calculate pie or how to
do complex geometry using the horse, using the forest, using the dog.
Yeah.
And on our website, we have all of these modules now for people to use.
Mm-hmm.
Because we became frustrated with our own limitations.
Yeah.
So we began to reach out to other people for maths and science.
And we found that through these collaborations we
could do things like this.
Are you, are some of the kids coming to you needing to learn
some of the higher skills?
And if so.
Are there, are you finding ways to address that?
No.
Or you just doing fairly much at the basics?
Monique: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah.
Most of all the basics.
And it is most of all that school is too quick.
They, they, they are pushing the it Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
Monique: They, they, they want to learn it very quick, but they don't
understand what they are learning.
So that's the thing.
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, yes.
I agree.
It's, it's so difficult in school.
Yeah.
'cause the, the sensory environment is wrong.
The kid can't move.
Yeah.
The school smells bad.
Yes.
They're afraid of the other kids.
They're afraid of the teacher.
Yeah.
Everything is going to push the learning backwards.
Yeah.
And they come out to a place like yours, suddenly they're with somebody.
Nice.
And there were two nice people.
One of them has four legs.
One of them has two legs.
Has two legs.
Yeah.
They're in a nice environment, as you say.
There's time they can relax and they're moving.
Yes.
Again, neuroplasticity.
Do you then get reports back from the school, from the teachers
saying, oh, or from the parent?
This child, yeah.
Made a jump.
Monique: Yeah.
But I also recognize that school is a little bit.
Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: sure.
But
Monique: I'm a teacher, so how is this possible?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
Monique: yeah.
No, it, no.
Yes.
It's,
Rupert Isaacson: they, they, they hate admitting it, don't they?
It's like, yeah.
So it couldn't possibly be the lady with the horse.
Yeah.
Monique: Yeah.
But, but you are only a coach.
You are not a teacher.
How so?
That's a little bit yeah.
Sometimes fights.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Fiction.
Monique: Fiction, yeah.
Fiction between the teacher and me as a coach.
And, and how, how is it possible?
Parents are happy.
They see a kid with a smile and learning,
Rupert Isaacson: I tell you, it really does help.
When we, we, when we do our trainings for horse boy movement method,
one of the things that we, we teach people is the neuroscience.
Yeah.
And when you, you understand you why the brain is responding in this way.
And you can say to that teacher, well, it's because blah, blah, blah, and blah.
First you create oxytocin, then that gets rid of cortisol.
Then this creates BDNF.
BDNF does this in the brain and then in the BDNF you get these other cells
in the cerebellum that govern Yeah.
Social skills and most skills, and so on and so on.
And this way we can feed in the information like this.
That's why it works.
And here are 10 university studies that prove it.
Yeah.
What what really helped us last year to 20 40,024 was a PhD was published
into one of our programs, which is called Movement Method, which
is the one we do without horses.
That's now in schools.
And but it's based on everything that we do with horses.
It's just we realized that people needed, you know, something
to do, you know, at home.
And we never thought that it would end up in schools, but it did.
And then a PhD was done on Movement Method in schools in Germany.
What were called UNK schools was burning Point Schools where they had
an overwhelming number of of refugees.
And there were Ukrainian children with Russian children fighting.
There were Syrian children fighting with Iraqi children and so on.
And Movement method came in and didn't just create better academic
and better behavior outcomes.
But also, this was interesting, the teachers.
Wanted to stay in the job.
There was better teacher satisfaction and fewer teachers leaving the job
because we did the study over some years.
Yeah.
It's really handy when you can point to these things with schools and
teachers and say, well look, why are these schools in Germany doing it?
Then, you know, why are these schools in the USA doing it?
Why in Ireland does the government now sponsor horse boy movement
method programs again since 2024?
Well, 'cause it works.
Why does it work?
Okay, blah, blah, blah.
So maybe when we're done with this core, I can connect you with some people
in the Netherlands who are working in this way and have access to that data.
Yes.
And then when you approach a school or you're talking with a school, it's
not just you, Monique Timmermans, you know the lady with the horses?
No, no.
We're attached to this large scientific community.
Admittedly, we didn't start as scientist it.
And therefore, if you don't believe me, then show me your
doctorate in neuroscience, please.
Where did you get your doctorate?
Yeah.
And then of course I say, well, I haven't got one.
And you say, well, then why are we arguing?
You know?
Yeah.
And it, I, I think I, I, I'm optimistic.
I have a feeling that there's a shift coming in education because most schools
know that essentially they're failing.
And I think many parents are voting with their feet and removing their
children from the school system.
Yeah.
More than ever, you know?
Yeah.
And I, I, so one can go from, from this and then.
I, I would bet that two years from this conversation, those same schools will
be using you as an outside classroom, which is what often happens to a lot of
the people that we do trainings with.
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
And suddenly they're saying, oh, Monique, could you take these five children?
Yeah, yeah, of course.
Monique: Yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.
Monique: Nice.
Okay,
Rupert Isaacson: so where do you, where's it going for you?
How do you want to develop your program?
Where do you see it?
You know.
And are, are you, are you attached to any larger groups within the Netherlands?
Are you very much a one man show?
You know, what's your desire for the future as an autism man?
Yeah.
Where are we going?
Monique: Where are we going?
I don't know.
I don't know where we going, but I would like to help other people, other families.
I think I can give them a lot of experience and I
want to have a holistic way.
Hmm.
I like that because there are a lot of things in a family that are important.
And yeah, learning by the job.
I, I don't know where, where I'm going to I'll take it from the moment and yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, listening to you in this conversation, what I hear from
both of you very much is the word family.
Family, family.
Like, so you have had this experience because you have three children.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Right.
We have not had the time in this conversation to talk much about the
experience of your other two children.
However, I'm sure that you have had, and you still have to live a life in which
making sure you meet the needs of the other two kids
presents constant challenges.
And these challenges change, right?
Yeah.
From, you know, year to year, month to month.
And then there's also your marriage, right?
Yeah.
So you are lucky.
You guys have stayed, you know, strong.
You've stayed together.
You know, and I know this is not the experience of the majority
of special needs families.
It's about 80% divorce.
Now it's 50% anyway, divorce rate, but 80%, that's high.
You must have had challenges, obviously, like anyone, any marriage staying
together through the difficult times.
What would you say is both of you?
Let, let's, let's hear from you a little bit.
So
as an autism dad in this situation also, you've got it on your shoulders.
You've got say, shit, I've gotta keep earning the money.
I've got to, but I, at the same time, I can't separate myself.
Too much from the family and just say, I'm earning the money.
You, Monique, go there.
Sort out the kids.
We know this doesn't work.
You know?
What were the biggest challenges for you as a dad and how did, how has
Monique's work helped shape you as a dad?
Or has, how has you as a dad helped shape, money shape?
Wow.
That's difficult to say.
Husband: Yeah, of course it is both ways.
Mm-hmm.
The most important thing we've learned together is that you give
each one the time and the space to accept the situation we are in.
Okay.
Yeah.
Especially with well, you have, you have a special child with
Monique: special
Husband: care, special care, special attention.
Yeah.
But your other two kids are also special in another way.
So they need the same attention.
Yeah.
You, that's why I we earlier told that we are very thankful that we learned in
at the dolphin therapy to, to well, to park some for a moment because we were,
we are busy at that moment with the other two or one or the other two kids.
Yeah.
But the most important thing is I'm a man.
I look differently at some things especially about emotions or something
like that to, to certain situations.
Yeah.
About sound, about, no, a number of things.
But Monique respects my point of view at those emotions and otherwise.
I respect Monique with her emotions and, and some, some, at some points she, she
needs more time and in other occasions I need more time to accept things.
It's also very important that you, that you have things that are only for you.
Yeah.
I, I like to run and, and, and, and to go on a bicycle for a few
hours or, or something like that.
Yeah.
Sport is very important for me.
So she gave me the opportunity to, to, to, to do my sports.
Yeah.
The other thing is Nick is not, she already told Yeah.
Horses are everything.
Yeah.
So she needs her space and her time with the horses.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Husband: So you, that's, that's that's the balance you are looking for constantly.
Yes.
And, and after a, after a while, you, you, you don't have to think
anymore how to, to get that balance.
You recognize when you, oh, okay.
Now we're a little off balance.
What do we need to, to, to balance again,
Rupert Isaacson: again?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, absolutely.
This type of, of communication, it's so interesting because what
we're trying to do, I think with all of our equine assisted practice
is get communication, right?
You're dealing with an a nonverbal kid or you're trying to get communication.
You're dealing with somebody who has depression is a little shut down,
or it's all about communication.
Of course, marriage is, you know, yes.
We know that when we stop communicating, things get funky very fast.
Yes.
But fortunately I think in our practice we do, well, we have a
practice of trying to communicate.
So perhaps it comes a little more naturally to us to say
maybe we don't want to be here.
Maybe.
We have some tools to get out of here let's use them.
Do you guys help other couples with this?
Do you advise the parents not just in their parenting, but also in their
communication within the marriage at all?
Has this come into the practice?
Monique: Not especially but sometimes I have some kind of
couples in my practice, yeah.
Who has this problem.
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.
Monique: So yeah, on that way it is.
And the only thing I have done two years ago was it maybe, yeah,
Husband: she had, she had a, a lecture
Monique: Yeah.
Husband: For a number of people.
Yeah.
Another
Monique: parents yeah.
A lot of different
Husband: people who are connected with autism.
So parents with autism, but also people from the, the community, from government
social workers, et cetera like that.
And there she she gave a lecture about her, about our experience.
Yeah.
How to deal with yeah.
A child who has autism.
Monique: What to do with, with when it is eastern and you have all the
family on your table standing nice and, and your, your son or daughter
is, is going to the kitchen alone.
No, you have to come over here because No.
Just let them, no,
Rupert Isaacson: let
Monique: them thing.
Well, many eyes opened over there and they told me, really?
Are you doing that this way?
Yeah.
How nice.
And I really thought, huh, you don't know.
It's, it's, it's, yeah, it
Rupert Isaacson: is interesting, isn't it?
Yeah.
I, I think one of the things which is the key here, whether we're talking
about with the child or whether we're talking about with each other,
it's about letting off the pressure.
Yes.
Yeah.
I, I think that so often there is this tendency to think.
We are in a crisis situation here or something we just put more pressure on.
Yeah.
And whether we do this, I do this to my wife, or I do this to my kid,
or my kid does it to me or, and it's often at that, and I think this
is where horses are really good.
Yeah.
We know that when things get challenging with horses, if you put more pressure
on in that moment, you could die.
Yeah.
Like you really could.
Yeah.
You've gotta be very angry like that, you know?
So why don't we apply the same logic to our human situations?
And it's so interesting that whenever we do, whenever we say, you know,
just let him go to the kitchen and let the Easter unfold for everybody else,
and we will work on being able to be together at table over five years.
It's fine.
Suddenly you feel that sense of, oh.
Like a relief or, yeah, in a marriage.
Oh, you mean I don't have to fix all your problems and you don't
have to fix all my problems.
Whew.
Thank God I can't.
I know I can't.
Here is something which I think you know, we're approaching now towards, you know,
the hour and a half, two hour mark and, you know, we can pick this conversation
up again later, but something I'm seeing more and more, I think with the parents
that I work with who are more than 10 years into this adventure, that what
is not addressed is the cumulative trauma that special needs parents go
through in the course of their lives.
And that there is never any time to address this.
And I'm not saying that we can create this time.
Because life is life.
Yeah.
But I think it would be useful to begin to put together some sort of methodology
for looking at this, acknowledging this saying, well, what do we do?
Given that this is not an ideal situation when people need 30, 40 years of 50
years of energy to keep this going.
And, you know, you're, you're a financial advisor, so, you know, so
I know from this financial side too, with special needs, you really have to
think, okay, what happens after I die?
You know, and.
Not j There's the, the financial side, and then there's also the family side.
Will the family come together around my child, or will my child
be somewhat alone after I die?
Yeah.
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
These worries that we keep us up at night.
Plus just the cumulative, the accumulated exhaustion and worry and yeah.
Flat out trauma.
Yeah.
So this business of being a special needs parent and a special
needs couple obviously we've seen that it can split people apart
or it can weld people together.
Do you see your practice evolving over the next few years towards helping couples?
Monique: Yeah, of course.
Yeah, for sure.
I can bring a lot.
I have a lot of experience and I know the way you have to go through
it, it's not always easy, but
Rupert Isaacson: never is.
Monique: Never is.
It never is.
But but also there when you listen to each other that it's gonna be okay.
You, you have to know it's always with the, with the best ways you are doing it.
Rupert Isaacson: That everyone is actually trying their best.
Monique: Yeah.
It's not, it's not because you don't like your partner or No, it's just because
probably you love your husband or your wife and you want the best for it,
but that's sometimes it, it's, it, it struggles it be because you, you want,
well, I think, I think too with stress,
Rupert Isaacson: the stress hormone, cortisol.
It makes us not rational, right?
So we know this, when, when cortisol gets going in the brain, the stress hormone,
we become aggressive, we become defensive.
We,
Monique: yeah,
Rupert Isaacson: we become three years old again.
And if we are in situations where this is happening constantly, then
we're constantly three years old.
And this is not helpful.
Monique: No, no.
Rupert Isaacson: So I would be very interested in the next, I, I think
this is where it has to go in our work.
I think most of us have been concentrating for the last 20 years or so on the
child perhaps, or, or the individual with the condition, perhaps the family
as well, but not really the couple.
Not really the primary engine that keeps Yeah.
The whole thing going.
Yeah.
And I'm realizing more and more that this is where we have to collaborate.
You know, all of us who have been, I want to throw this out there
for the listeners and the viewers.
If you've been in this journey for more than 10 years, you have a lot to share.
And do we all need to get together now and create a practice that does
address the exhaustion, the trauma, the,
the deep unhappiness and sadness
Monique: Exactly.
That,
Rupert Isaacson: you know, can grow over time despite, yes, it's beautiful and
yes, we can see success, but it, you know,
sometimes having to, to speak so positively all the time
can also take its toll that.
You know, what do we do with the sadness?
You know, what, what, what do you feel?
You two, what, what, what do we do?
Monique: Yeah.
Yeah.
Well,
Husband: the point is when your child is born, you have several expectations
about they go to university, they, they make friends, they, they get
married, get children et cetera.
All that kind of life events Yeah.
That you are expecting.
And when they are diagnosed autism a lot of these expectations you have
to change because, you know, some won't get married or get children or
graduate at, at, at high school or university or something like that.
Monique: It's a kind of grief.
Husband: It's, it's a kind of breed indeed.
And, and, you have to find a way to see the, the positive things of, of Stan,
you, you, you, you are much easier, happy about the little steps he makes
in comparing with the other children who does graduate or do the things
do the yeah, do the things are yeah.
Similar with their age.
You know what I mean?
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I do.
I do.
I'm just thinking while you were talking about Rowan.
And so although Rowan is, you know, he's very independent.
He has his own house and car now he travels independently.
He has a couple of different jobs.
Yeah.
And in some ways though, he's also still completely autistic.
It, it's in parallel.
This, this yeah.
Extreme functionality with this extreme, you know, autism.
But what, what, what I really.
Have come to see is that he has this role as a peacemaker.
He resolves conflict.
He does it within my family.
When we are all pissed off with each other Rowan only has to enter the
conversation and suddenly we are all a little bit back on our game.
It makes us focus on what's important.
And then I find too that when he is physically present, people behave better.
People are, and I bet it's the same with Stan, right?
That's right.
Yeah.
That's, yeah.
Yeah.
You, you were talking about like when he's out with the dog in the neighborhood
and everyone is, oh, they're, look, now they're looking out for Stan.
And if they, they either see the dog and if they see the dog, they know he's there.
Or if they see he's there, they know the dog is there.
The, this is a cohesive.
Thing for the, for the community.
And so when you're talking about adjusting expectations, I think what's often not
presented is there are actually some really high and good expectations.
Like, for example, are children taking on these conflict resolving roles?
Yeah.
Which are very, very valuable.
Yeah.
Do you know what I mean?
But this is not something which is presented to us culturally.
So maybe people like you, people like me, need to be going out there with this Yeah.
And say, okay, you've resolved, you know, you're abandoning, there's a
grief over this set of expectations and dreams, but here are the other ones.
Yes.
Monique: Yes.
Sometimes I, I, I tell someone else when everyone was like, stump.
It would be a beautiful world
Rupert Isaacson: would be 'cause he
Monique: learns us to enjoy the little things, the times he is
walking with his frock on his finger.
Look, I have a frock.
Well, I'm glad I'm, I'm laughing.
I'm, I'm, yeah, it's lovely because I don't even catch a frog and
he is just walking with a frog
Rupert Isaacson: and so something is going on in the consciousness
field between him and the frog.
Yeah.
Something is going and, and that reminds us, ah, there are these
different fields of consciousness.
Yeah.
And I can't walk around with a frog on my finger.
You can't walk around with a frog on your feet.
No.
He can.
Yeah.
What else can he do?
He can resolve conflict by walking through the community.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Perhaps the person who sees him has just had a big
argument with their wife or kid, and then they see Stan and the dog
come through and they're like, whew.
Yeah.
I bet you that's going on.
Monique: Yeah.
Yeah,
Husband: yeah.
That's now because Stu has no expectations to anyone, to no one at all.
Monique: I just want to tell.
Husband: Okay.
And, and we always had expectation.
We always already imagination, imagination things.
How, what's going to ha what's going to happen, how it should
be perhaps would be happen.
Yeah.
How it should be.
And, and Stu doesn't do that because not because, so he
is, he's living the life yeah.
Right at the moment.
Monique: Just moment by moment and not what it's about next week.
No.
This just like horses.
Husband: Yes.
Now this, this is it, and not what may this moment happen.
Monique: Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Unconditional love.
Monique: Yeah.
Yes.
Unconditional love.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that's a great, that's a great note to end on.
I look forward to continuing this conversation.
You know, I, I think mon you, you and I should try to
collaborate a little bit nice.
And obviously there's a fair horse boy community in the Netherlands.
But particularly over this business of the parent, the parental experience,
and perhaps both of you, you know, we could continue this conversation.
I'd be, I, I, I think it, it, it has to happen.
Um mm-hmm.
But thank you so much for coming on the show and having this conversation.
I really appreciate it.
I know our listeners Thank you.
We liked it last.
Yeah.
Monique: We're to very last.
Yeah.
Rupert Isaacson: Tell yes.
Yeah.
Spread the word.
And, you know, next time I'm coming through the Netherlands I'd love
to come and, and check out ini.
So I see for those people who want to check out.
Monique's work.
It's in Compi nl, right?
Yes.
Right.
And if you're an English speaker, the Compi bit is spelled with a K.
With a K?
Monique: Yes.
In
Rupert Isaacson: Compi, IE.
So it's like compassion.
But with a K, not a C.
And IE, not I, in Compi nl for the Netherlands.
Monique: Yes.
Rupert Isaacson: Check out her stuff.
Monique: Thank you.
Rupert Isaacson: We will.
All right.
Okay, my friends.
Until the next time.
Thank you again
Monique: next time.
Thank you.
See
Rupert Isaacson: you.
Bye-bye.
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