1 00:00:00,050 --> 00:00:04,790 I just listened to that podcast because I missed the, on the 13th 2 00:00:04,790 --> 00:00:08,840 because I was involved with school and so my head's already going with 3 00:00:08,890 --> 00:00:11,150 the tier one, division. 4 00:00:11,150 --> 00:00:14,960 I'm already thinking about that from a different perspective, 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,260 Hey everybody, it's Cheri Dotterer here at Tier One Interventions podcast. 6 00:00:19,499 --> 00:00:24,810 I'm here today with Jonily Zupancic and we are in class today with a live 7 00:00:24,810 --> 00:00:29,550 group of ladies and gentlemen who are learning about the Mastery Math method. 8 00:00:29,850 --> 00:00:34,380 So I'm gonna let Jonily talk and if there's any intervention that I wanna add 9 00:00:34,380 --> 00:00:41,730 to the puzzle, we will do but for now, I'm signing it all over to Jonily and let 10 00:00:41,730 --> 00:00:43,770 us learn a little bit about mathematics. 11 00:00:43,770 --> 00:00:44,310 Girl. 12 00:00:44,820 --> 00:00:46,260 Y'all, this is Jay-Z. 13 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:49,930 I'm Jonily Zupancic, I'm your math specialist, your main Mathineer. 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:55,505 I if you are listening to this podcast or you're watching this podcast on YouTube I 15 00:00:55,505 --> 00:00:57,995 want to give a disclaimer and a warning. 16 00:00:58,595 --> 00:00:59,795 This is level two. 17 00:00:59,795 --> 00:01:04,295 You're listening in on a level two version of Mastery Math method. 18 00:01:04,955 --> 00:01:10,745 Mastery Math Method is strengthening our tier one core general classroom. 19 00:01:11,105 --> 00:01:15,545 We cannot have in our schools effective interventions and effective tier two and 20 00:01:15,545 --> 00:01:19,055 tier three without the strongest core. 21 00:01:19,445 --> 00:01:23,525 So if you're listening to this, that's the mindset that I want you to have. 22 00:01:24,365 --> 00:01:26,255 You should be listening to this. 23 00:01:26,375 --> 00:01:30,275 If you are a general classroom teacher, a special ed teacher, a parent, a 24 00:01:30,275 --> 00:01:34,745 school board member, a superintendent, a curriculum director, a principal, every 25 00:01:34,745 --> 00:01:42,065 stakeholder should be involved in the qualities of a strong tier one general 26 00:01:42,065 --> 00:01:46,565 classroom environment and the experiences that students are going to have. 27 00:01:47,045 --> 00:01:50,285 But again, the disclaimer is this is upleveled. 28 00:01:50,495 --> 00:01:51,875 Natalie, I'm gonna use your word. 29 00:01:51,875 --> 00:01:52,445 I love it. 30 00:01:52,475 --> 00:01:56,645 I think it was uplevel it like you're, it's, this is definitely the 31 00:01:56,885 --> 00:01:59,975 level version of the mathematics. 32 00:02:00,275 --> 00:02:04,295 So to get the lower level versions, you'll listen to some other podcasts, 33 00:02:04,595 --> 00:02:07,895 but don't not listen to this because you don't understand it. 34 00:02:08,615 --> 00:02:13,475 And I was just telling Beth, Beth is coming into level two not 35 00:02:13,475 --> 00:02:15,335 having the exposures to level one. 36 00:02:15,335 --> 00:02:19,745 And that is actually almost better because if you're listening to level 37 00:02:19,745 --> 00:02:23,525 two and you're a first grade teacher and you think to yourself I'm not 38 00:02:23,525 --> 00:02:25,235 gonna teach that math to my kids. 39 00:02:25,594 --> 00:02:27,124 It's not about the math. 40 00:02:27,124 --> 00:02:31,745 Today I'm gonna be sharing Uplevel Mathematics. 41 00:02:32,164 --> 00:02:36,215 But what I want you to hear is not about the mathematics. 42 00:02:36,904 --> 00:02:44,374 What I want you to hear today is about how we get high achieving 43 00:02:44,374 --> 00:02:49,805 kids, and I'm gonna do that through some high level mathematics. 44 00:02:50,674 --> 00:02:56,614 I am back in the classroom this year after 14 years of not having been 45 00:02:56,614 --> 00:03:00,874 teacher of record for my own students, and I am loving every minute of it. 46 00:03:00,874 --> 00:03:05,914 Please share the movement, and subscribe on YouTube Tier one interventions podcast. 47 00:03:05,914 --> 00:03:08,764 Tell your friends, neighbors, relatives, enemies. 48 00:03:09,065 --> 00:03:10,054 We don't care who it is. 49 00:03:10,334 --> 00:03:11,054 And subscribe. 50 00:03:11,834 --> 00:03:16,365 So behind me, you're gonna see the result of many other groups 51 00:03:16,365 --> 00:03:17,624 that I am leading this year. 52 00:03:17,624 --> 00:03:21,405 So I'm leading a masterclass group, a mastermind group. 53 00:03:21,434 --> 00:03:24,524 And actually before I jump into the math, because we're gonna get, we're 54 00:03:24,524 --> 00:03:27,404 gonna get real spicy on the math today. 55 00:03:27,854 --> 00:03:33,279 Does anybody have anything to or share or comment or whatever 56 00:03:45,099 --> 00:03:46,329 the podcast is still on. 57 00:03:46,329 --> 00:03:48,759 I know there was a little pause, but I think it's important, even if you're 58 00:03:48,759 --> 00:03:53,289 listening to the podcast, one of the great instructional strategies is wait time. 59 00:03:53,979 --> 00:03:55,569 So I'm gonna ask again. 60 00:03:55,599 --> 00:04:00,699 I'm gonna wait again and I'm going to give double wait time. 61 00:04:01,539 --> 00:04:05,439 So anybody listening here live, do you have anything to add? 62 00:04:05,499 --> 00:04:07,869 Any questions, any words of wisdom? 63 00:04:07,929 --> 00:04:09,159 Any thoughts? 64 00:04:10,029 --> 00:04:10,629 Go ahead. 65 00:04:11,229 --> 00:04:12,384 If you're missing, put in the comments. 66 00:04:12,804 --> 00:04:13,144 Got it. 67 00:04:13,779 --> 00:04:16,509 If you're on the podcast, put them in the comments. 68 00:04:16,869 --> 00:04:18,009 We will respond. 69 00:04:18,039 --> 00:04:19,629 It may take us a couple weeks. 70 00:04:19,999 --> 00:04:23,099 'Cause I don't, we don't check the comments every day. 71 00:04:23,099 --> 00:04:23,849 Unfortunately. 72 00:04:23,849 --> 00:04:24,959 I don't, just don't have the time. 73 00:04:25,499 --> 00:04:28,009 But put your information in the comments. 74 00:04:28,009 --> 00:04:28,999 We will get back to you. 75 00:04:29,599 --> 00:04:31,699 You know what, Cheri, I always forget about this. 76 00:04:31,729 --> 00:04:32,719 I always forget about this. 77 00:04:32,719 --> 00:04:33,439 You are so good. 78 00:04:33,439 --> 00:04:34,489 I love you so much. 79 00:04:34,939 --> 00:04:38,449 And I'm gonna reiterate that if you're listening on a podcast or you're 80 00:04:38,449 --> 00:04:42,979 watching the podcast on YouTube, I've already said and subscribe. 81 00:04:43,759 --> 00:04:45,619 But now it's even more important. 82 00:04:46,039 --> 00:04:48,499 To comment and start the conversation. 83 00:04:50,599 --> 00:04:53,149 Start the conversation and comment to each other. 84 00:04:53,539 --> 00:04:58,919 Even if Cheri and I don't get in there to respond, create your own community there. 85 00:04:59,199 --> 00:05:02,409 Get the comments going, say stuff. 86 00:05:03,519 --> 00:05:08,979 If you are tired of this too, then say it now. 87 00:05:09,129 --> 00:05:11,409 I do have to give another disclaimer. 88 00:05:11,589 --> 00:05:14,199 Let's try to be as positive as we can. 89 00:05:14,799 --> 00:05:19,239 So I think that just, being a B and being negative and being that's, 90 00:05:19,299 --> 00:05:20,499 that hasn't changed anything. 91 00:05:20,529 --> 00:05:24,849 We see that all the time on socials and we continue to do that 92 00:05:24,849 --> 00:05:26,349 and it's not changing anything. 93 00:05:26,709 --> 00:05:30,199 It's like when students, they have bad behavior in schools and then 94 00:05:30,199 --> 00:05:33,439 we give a detention and we call home and we do this and we do that. 95 00:05:34,039 --> 00:05:37,189 We have to ask ourselves, did any of it change the behavior? 96 00:05:38,449 --> 00:05:40,579 Did any of it change the behavior? 97 00:05:40,699 --> 00:05:43,609 And if the answer is no, then we have to do something that's 98 00:05:43,609 --> 00:05:44,509 gonna change the behavior. 99 00:05:44,689 --> 00:05:49,699 So don't just get online and throw out your complaints about the school system. 100 00:05:49,999 --> 00:05:50,479 Okay. 101 00:05:50,509 --> 00:05:51,859 Nobody wants to hear that. 102 00:05:52,369 --> 00:06:00,439 Let's have good positive energy and real conversations about strategies 103 00:06:00,439 --> 00:06:05,239 and techniques that can actually make a difference and make changes. 104 00:06:05,529 --> 00:06:10,269 I just listened to that podcast because I missed the, on the 13th 105 00:06:10,269 --> 00:06:14,319 because I was involved with school and so my head's already going with 106 00:06:14,369 --> 00:06:16,629 the tier one, division. 107 00:06:16,629 --> 00:06:20,439 I'm already thinking about that from a different perspective, 108 00:06:20,649 --> 00:06:21,159 I know. 109 00:06:21,159 --> 00:06:21,999 It's crazy. 110 00:06:22,239 --> 00:06:25,969 It's not something I wanted to do, but it's almost a necessity now. 111 00:06:26,394 --> 00:06:26,474 I know. 112 00:06:26,734 --> 00:06:26,974 Now tell them, 113 00:06:27,284 --> 00:06:27,824 listen. 114 00:06:27,824 --> 00:06:27,854 Okay. 115 00:06:28,394 --> 00:06:31,874 I just put on, I just put on Simon and I was listening to 116 00:06:31,874 --> 00:06:32,954 him for the past half hour. 117 00:06:33,134 --> 00:06:34,124 Love him. 118 00:06:34,654 --> 00:06:38,164 He's just, and I don't even know, and I'm like I'm not abnormal. 119 00:06:38,164 --> 00:06:41,374 All I have in my head was interleaving, all that. 120 00:06:41,424 --> 00:06:42,534 The stuff we talked about. 121 00:06:42,534 --> 00:06:46,834 Y I say yesterday, but the other day, and I'm thinking, oh my God, 122 00:06:46,834 --> 00:06:49,854 how appropriate is this for the education of the kids and the math? 123 00:06:49,854 --> 00:06:52,044 And I'm thinking, oh my God, if you only knew. 124 00:06:52,414 --> 00:06:53,614 It just connects. 125 00:06:53,614 --> 00:06:54,394 It's, you guys. 126 00:06:54,394 --> 00:06:56,194 You guys put a fever in us. 127 00:06:56,434 --> 00:06:59,134 It's, I started with her and then she connected me with you. 128 00:06:59,194 --> 00:07:03,654 No, you guys, I tell you, every single time I get inspiration. 129 00:07:03,654 --> 00:07:05,174 I go and move with it. 130 00:07:05,264 --> 00:07:09,124 It's that's why your keeping in your little bubble is not gonna work. 131 00:07:09,124 --> 00:07:11,314 You need to branch out and agreed. 132 00:07:11,314 --> 00:07:15,154 I'll be your cheerleader, because you can't stay in your little bubble. 133 00:07:15,364 --> 00:07:17,284 , I'll be one of the bubbles that move along. 134 00:07:17,314 --> 00:07:17,944 You know what I mean? 135 00:07:17,944 --> 00:07:18,694 Blow your bubble. 136 00:07:18,694 --> 00:07:20,854 Blow your wand, and we'll be at your little bubbles. 137 00:07:21,394 --> 00:07:22,204 Think about that. 138 00:07:22,414 --> 00:07:24,454 Okay, here's one bubble and here's another bubble. 139 00:07:24,634 --> 00:07:25,084 Okay? 140 00:07:25,384 --> 00:07:27,694 Just think of us as moving along in the wind. 141 00:07:28,144 --> 00:07:29,524 But you have to move. 142 00:07:29,524 --> 00:07:31,424 You can't just be stagnant in there. 143 00:07:32,369 --> 00:07:37,749 Don't make me cry, but I'll take your thoughts and move them this way. 144 00:07:38,049 --> 00:07:40,969 Everybody, grade two will take your thoughts and grade, 145 00:07:41,259 --> 00:07:43,239 grade six Krista, right? 146 00:07:43,269 --> 00:07:44,979 You'll take her thoughts and move them. 147 00:07:45,399 --> 00:07:47,949 Everybody, Natalie will take your thoughts and move them. 148 00:07:48,104 --> 00:07:50,954 We're not gonna say, oh, this is my idea. 149 00:07:50,954 --> 00:07:54,584 We give you credit because you are inspirational to us and 150 00:07:54,584 --> 00:07:56,714 you've made us want to do this. 151 00:07:56,714 --> 00:07:59,534 I don't, I, I have crafts up the yin yang. 152 00:07:59,534 --> 00:08:01,634 I could go do, I'm not doing that. 153 00:08:01,634 --> 00:08:02,564 I'm here with you. 154 00:08:02,564 --> 00:08:09,004 I made my office up better, just because of you and Cheri, glad it's 155 00:08:09,054 --> 00:08:11,364 you guys are not my just mentors. 156 00:08:11,364 --> 00:08:12,684 You guys are my friends now. 157 00:08:12,734 --> 00:08:15,379 Like you say, we're the elite, but we're friends now. 158 00:08:15,379 --> 00:08:16,879 We want this to happen. 159 00:08:17,269 --> 00:08:18,729 You're in the right place for 160 00:08:18,729 --> 00:08:18,849 this. 161 00:08:19,449 --> 00:08:20,079 I know. 162 00:08:20,079 --> 00:08:24,919 I listened to your that podcast that Cheri sent me about the 163 00:08:24,919 --> 00:08:30,669 division is counting and I have been using the , what do you call it? 164 00:08:30,669 --> 00:08:35,569 The one 20 chart . . . But now this kind of refines it and I'm really 165 00:08:35,569 --> 00:08:39,664 excited 'cause I have couple math groups at different age levels. 166 00:08:40,444 --> 00:08:40,784 Age levels. 167 00:08:40,839 --> 00:08:42,339 I'm real excited about that. 168 00:08:42,729 --> 00:08:48,399 I wanna hear, do you, can you start with division or do you have to go to addition? 169 00:08:48,399 --> 00:08:49,299 I'm just not sure. 170 00:08:49,479 --> 00:08:55,449 'cause my kids are really behind and it's very hard for them, to learn. 171 00:08:55,719 --> 00:08:57,819 Math is a big emotional. 172 00:08:58,499 --> 00:08:59,609 X for them. 173 00:08:59,609 --> 00:09:00,239 So agree. 174 00:09:02,374 --> 00:09:04,774 Hey everybody, it's Cheri again. 175 00:09:05,194 --> 00:09:09,994 If you're loving these strategies and you want to join our Mastery 176 00:09:09,994 --> 00:09:16,204 Math Method Masterclass, we hold this hour long event once a month 177 00:09:16,264 --> 00:09:18,154 and we'd love to have you join. 178 00:09:18,724 --> 00:09:22,759 What we talk about there is how to improve your math skills in 10 days. 179 00:09:23,644 --> 00:09:27,964 Can you imagine 10 days, whether you are a math teacher or an occupational 180 00:09:27,964 --> 00:09:32,944 therapist, you can see exactly how to shift teaching so that every student, 181 00:09:33,094 --> 00:09:38,074 no matter their starting point, can master core math concepts and reserve. 182 00:09:38,854 --> 00:09:45,094 So reserve your seat today and go over to disability labs.com/calendar 183 00:09:45,274 --> 00:09:47,464 to check out the next event. 184 00:09:49,739 --> 00:09:54,699 So you're saying it beautifully, but I will answer one of your questions. 185 00:09:55,089 --> 00:09:55,509 Yes. 186 00:09:55,539 --> 00:09:55,569 Okay. 187 00:09:55,569 --> 00:10:00,129 I'm a huge proponent of beginning with division before addition. 188 00:10:00,189 --> 00:10:00,969 Oh wow. 189 00:10:00,969 --> 00:10:01,779 I like to teach Wow. 190 00:10:02,109 --> 00:10:02,859 The other 191 00:10:02,859 --> 00:10:03,849 operations. 192 00:10:04,599 --> 00:10:04,629 Okay. 193 00:10:04,629 --> 00:10:06,039 Through division. 194 00:10:06,759 --> 00:10:09,519 And actually I do it because wow. 195 00:10:09,759 --> 00:10:15,219 Toddlers, they know sharing, they know equal sharing. 196 00:10:15,609 --> 00:10:19,569 They're very clear if they don't get the exact same as somebody else. 197 00:10:20,049 --> 00:10:23,019 So that is the essence of division. 198 00:10:23,709 --> 00:10:24,849 So addition. 199 00:10:24,899 --> 00:10:26,844 Conceptually means really nothing to kids. 200 00:10:27,299 --> 00:10:29,039 I don't know why we start with addition. 201 00:10:29,089 --> 00:10:29,824 And it's not easy. 202 00:10:29,894 --> 00:10:30,184 Okay. 203 00:10:30,204 --> 00:10:30,624 That's 204 00:10:30,624 --> 00:10:32,419 a pa Oh, go ahead. 205 00:10:33,649 --> 00:10:34,099 No, 206 00:10:34,189 --> 00:10:35,689 it's a paradigm shift for me. 207 00:10:35,749 --> 00:10:37,899 I gotta, it's, roll it around. 208 00:10:37,899 --> 00:10:40,929 'cause that hasn't been the way I've been approaching it as a 209 00:10:40,929 --> 00:10:45,999 special ed teacher, but I've always been a little bit lost on how to 210 00:10:46,509 --> 00:10:49,029 sequentially get them involved in math. 211 00:10:49,029 --> 00:10:50,379 I only have 30 minutes. 212 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,359 That's the other thing, they just, limit me in what I can do. 213 00:10:55,479 --> 00:11:00,849 But I'm going to use Brain Gym because they're coming from their 214 00:11:00,849 --> 00:11:05,409 intensive settings and they're frustrated and everything. 215 00:11:05,409 --> 00:11:05,419 Yeah. 216 00:11:05,724 --> 00:11:06,489 And yeah. 217 00:11:06,849 --> 00:11:08,019 So I gotta do that. 218 00:11:08,229 --> 00:11:08,709 And. 219 00:11:09,639 --> 00:11:09,999 Anyway. 220 00:11:10,039 --> 00:11:13,629 Beth I'm let me warn everybody today. 221 00:11:14,529 --> 00:11:21,849 So this is level two, so I'm not going to go back and review. 222 00:11:22,239 --> 00:11:24,939 So Beth, you might be lost, but don't stop coming. 223 00:11:25,029 --> 00:11:25,209 Okay. 224 00:11:25,209 --> 00:11:29,019 That's what I wanna say because I'm going to uplevel the math. 225 00:11:29,019 --> 00:11:33,549 The purpose of mastery math method, tier one interventions level two 226 00:11:33,549 --> 00:11:38,829 for this 20 25, 20 26 school year is for us to record and document the 227 00:11:38,829 --> 00:11:40,959 content for the level two course. 228 00:11:41,469 --> 00:11:48,519 I don't want you to not come because I'm gonna teach something here and 229 00:11:49,149 --> 00:11:53,769 I'm not scaffolding to get there because any exposure is fine. 230 00:11:53,859 --> 00:11:57,729 You don't need the exposures in order because, 231 00:11:57,999 --> 00:11:58,419 okay. 232 00:11:58,639 --> 00:12:02,029 . You should have more stuff that you can access now. 233 00:12:02,459 --> 00:12:07,389 Beth, you're jumping into like in college when we have like level 6 0 3, like the 234 00:12:07,389 --> 00:12:09,909 600 level, you're jumping into that. 235 00:12:10,299 --> 00:12:14,679 But I don't want you to, I want you to keep coming don't let this scare you 236 00:12:14,679 --> 00:12:19,629 off, but then you have access digitally to level one where it's gonna take 237 00:12:19,629 --> 00:12:21,249 it all the way back to the beginning. 238 00:12:21,804 --> 00:12:26,209 Even before the beginning, so you're just gonna get it in a different order. 239 00:12:27,319 --> 00:12:27,649 Okay. 240 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:27,829 Which 241 00:12:27,829 --> 00:12:28,759 is counterintuitive. 242 00:12:28,759 --> 00:12:30,439 It's like teaching division first. 243 00:12:30,619 --> 00:12:32,869 You can do this, there's no order to it. 244 00:12:34,009 --> 00:12:34,039 Okay. 245 00:12:34,069 --> 00:12:35,179 So don't worry about that. 246 00:12:36,469 --> 00:12:36,889 Okay. 247 00:12:37,879 --> 00:12:41,569 And then just know the math that I'm teaching you on these Saturdays 248 00:12:41,569 --> 00:12:45,759 for level two is not what you're going to implement with your kids. 249 00:12:46,779 --> 00:12:51,129 You are here to actually learn the content as an adult so that you can 250 00:12:51,129 --> 00:12:56,054 better implement this the other math stuff from level one, if that makes sense. 251 00:12:56,354 --> 00:12:56,879 Oh, okay. 252 00:12:57,099 --> 00:12:58,244 Yes it does. 253 00:12:58,244 --> 00:13:00,284 So I have to go back to level one 254 00:13:00,884 --> 00:13:03,894 and don't worry about and look at that when I'm gonna refer to level 255 00:13:03,894 --> 00:13:08,004 one stuff and make connections, but you're gonna be like, I'm not 256 00:13:08,004 --> 00:13:09,414 gonna teach that math to my kids. 257 00:13:09,414 --> 00:13:10,224 No, you're not. 258 00:13:10,314 --> 00:13:13,694 You're not Even my Natalie's and Christa's, and especially my 259 00:13:13,694 --> 00:13:18,794 Amy's here, my Amy is not gonna be teaching the math on these Saturday. 260 00:13:18,974 --> 00:13:22,874 She teaches first grade, so she's not gonna be teaching the math that 261 00:13:22,874 --> 00:13:27,254 I'm teaching to her first graders, but she's been through level one. 262 00:13:27,254 --> 00:13:30,044 She's been through like everything with me. 263 00:13:30,564 --> 00:13:31,974 She just won't leave 264 00:13:36,534 --> 00:13:36,864 Amy. 265 00:13:36,864 --> 00:13:37,224 Oh boy, 266 00:13:37,684 --> 00:13:40,804 You're my doll and I love you so much. 267 00:13:41,014 --> 00:13:42,754 I can't do this without Amy. 268 00:13:43,399 --> 00:13:49,939 I could not do what I did with my content with the littles without Amy Garrison. 269 00:13:50,639 --> 00:13:55,439 I just need to say that and I need to say it to the whole world 270 00:13:56,009 --> 00:13:57,629 because I'm secondary trained. 271 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:06,509 So Amy Garrison has been the absolute necessity for putting 272 00:14:06,629 --> 00:14:10,199 Informal notation what this looks like in first grade. 273 00:14:11,369 --> 00:14:14,199 Thanks for tuning in to this first episode of our Level Two 274 00:14:14,199 --> 00:14:16,049 Mastery Math Method series. 275 00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:20,880 Today you heard why division is the true starting point in math, and 276 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:24,949 how equal sharing is actually the foundation of every other operation. 277 00:14:26,057 --> 00:14:29,497 Next time, we’ll take this one step further and ask: what 278 00:14:29,497 --> 00:14:33,147 moral obligation do we carry as educators once we see the data? 279 00:14:34,057 --> 00:14:37,227 Our next episode digs into the responsibility we have to shift 280 00:14:37,337 --> 00:14:42,507 practice—not just for test scores, but for student confidence and future success. 281 00:14:43,257 --> 00:14:44,477 Until then, remember. 282 00:14:44,847 --> 00:14:48,327 every student deserves the chance to see themselves as a mathematician. 283 00:14:48,947 --> 00:14:51,677 And as Cheri and Jonily say, Go Be Awesome! 284 00:14:51,777 --> 00:14:52,587 Go Be Brilliant! 285 00:14:53,107 --> 00:14:55,247 For you were put here for such a time as this.