[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore, how humans connect to get stuff done together. Undone Hammond. 

[00:00:14] Pia: And I am Pia Lee. How are you?

[00:00:16] Dan: I am super well, thank you. And I'm really excited. today about our guest. 

[00:00:22] Pia: We are excited. Yeah. We've been talking about this one for 

[00:00:25] Dan: We have, this is really going to be amazing. And it's prompted quite a lot of pondering to me about how, w we're going to be talking to a firefighter volunteer firefighter, Sandy Quirinale, and and it really reminded me that while we talk about. Lot, there's a lot of chatter on LinkedIn and we say, talk a lot about it. Office dwellers, talking about hybrid, working work from anywhere. There's a whole group of people out there and teams that don't even work in offices in the first place, and they're sort of a little bit ignored, but of course they, we are totally rely on them. So I'm really excited to go to the frontline and hear what that's like from a team point.

[00:01:04] Pia: And even another layer on that, uh, when we talked to Sandra it's voluntary. So some of these people are not actually being paid for, uh, dangerous services that they provide to. At 3:00 AM in the morning when we are we're on fire and we need someone to turn up. So I am, this is such an exciting opportunity because, uh, Sandy is quite unique in being a female firefighter in New Jersey. So, let's go over and hear from her.

[00:01:35] when I saw the opportunity through your sister who I on a program that I was run for, uh, as a tech startup. And I read your story as a volunteer firefighter, I had to reach out and hear your story on We Not Me. So absolutely delighted that you were generous enough to join us. 

[00:01:59] Sandy: Thank you. And I'm hoping we don't get a fire call during this interview. 

[00:02:02] Dan: if we do that, we'll be excited. take us with you. Take us with 

[00:02:05] Pia: Oh yeah, exactly. There's so much to talk about in terms of teamwork, but before we do that I'm going to hand over to Dan. Who's going to do the starter card question with you 

[00:02:14] Dan: I have a pack of conversation starter cards in my hand here. And in fact, I have three mini packs. I have a pack of red cards. It has a set of tricky questions on them. I have a set of orange cards. that have medium questions on instead of green cards that have sort of more simple, get to know you type of questions, but they're all the way to get to know a little bit about our guests, which would you, which from which pack would you like me to choose a card?

[00:02:40] Sandy: Tough decision, but I'll go with the orange pack because that reminds me of fire. And we're here to talk about firefighting.

[00:02:46] Pia: I, I was wondering, I was listening to, I was, I was, just thinking 

[00:02:50] Dan: Same thing I was hoping you'd go with and even made it nearly made a reference to it. But I thought, Nope, I probably shouldn't. Right. Let's get let me just choose a random one here. Okay. The question is. It's actually not a question. It's a statement you have to complete. I get really directive when. 

[00:03:08] Sandy: Ooh, that's easy for me because when I have the opportunity to be in the officer's seat in the truck, I get really directive. I you're supposed to take charge and I do. I have no problem directing. So 

[00:03:25] Dan: that's a very specific, answer, but wonderful. Where are we going to, we're going to hear a bit more about that world. I think our listeners will understand a bit more what that means. 

[00:03:34] Sandy: Some people might call me bossy.

[00:03:35] Dan: Oh, I'm sure. not, sure. not Yeah. So, so certainly perfect answer. Thank you. And why don't we just talk about how you get into that seat in the first place, talk to us about, your career and then how you got into firefighting. What's how'd you end up in that uh, in that seat.

[00:03:54] Sandy: Sure. I mean, it was sort of a circuitous route to firefighting because, uh, let's say post-college, I spent about 15 years in corporate America, uh, big companies like GE capital and Johnson and Johnson, helping them improve the way they work, improve their processes. I'm a master black belt. And having that perspective has always made me very focused on processes and how they work and also working with large cross-functional teams.

[00:04:27] So that was about 15 years. and then, uh, when my second son was a couple of years old, I took time off to be a stay at home mom. and for a while I did more traditional volunteer work that you would expect. And about three years ago, When my son decided on a 16th birthday, he was going to join our local fire station and I was driving him back and forth and then I was driving him, friends back and forth, and then I'm driving him to fire calls and everything I decided maybe I should just check this thing out. 

[00:05:02] Pia: How did you feel when your son wants to become a firefighter at 16 

[00:05:06] Sandy: Although I grew up with six sisters and my father had passed away when I was young. So it was very much all girl household. My current household is very testosterone filled. My husband, my two boys are always doing things. Speed skiing or snowboarding or whatever it is, high risk sports. So I actually, wasn't the least bit surprised when he wanted to join at age 16. And we also had some personal experience. We have a wilderness place and he was with me when our cabin exploded. And we've also had a wilderness fires up in this area that we've had to put out. So firefighting. Totally new to us. We were just never trained. 

[00:05:50] Dan: Wow. Sandy, just locate yourself for us. Can you, Whereabouts are you based? Where's your firefighting work take 

[00:05:56] Sandy: Right here in central New Jersey? Uh, Blomberg, New Jersey actually just outside of New York city. So, and it's a very rural town. We probably have on average one call a day, unless it's a situation like hurricane. Yeah. Where we actually had like 55 calls in that night. 

[00:06:13] Dan: Can, you take us into your world, sandy, take our listener into your world. What is this like to be, a volunteer firefighter?

[00:06:20] Sandy: It's an incredible experience. When I joined, I wasn't really certain, it sort of just happened as I said, with my son and everything, but then I was there for a while, narrow, like, Hey, the rule is you have to go to fire school within a year. And, I was like, okay, fire school is a huge commitment, 240 some hours. And that's just to get you your basic qualifications. And then the work begins. You have to drill. Constantly because everything has to become muscle memory. So, being part of the fire department here, is an incredible experience. It's one big team environment, uh, and we all work very hard together. So that has a very special result for us that we know each other very well. 

[00:07:09] Pia: And I guess that the question is, you're female, how many other females are in the fire station? And is this unusual view being female, joining the team?

[00:07:19] Sandy: Yeah, surprisingly our station or fortunately our station has always been relatively speaking relative to the fire service, which is very traditional quite diverse. Just all kinds of, females and different interests and backgrounds. So, but in terms of females now, because the fire service doesn't currently allow you to go through fire school until you're 18. It means a lot of them, the younger ones, the females ended up having to go, they go to fire school, but then they have to go off to college. So it's a little unfortunate.

[00:07:52] So right now I'm the only, non-college active female firefighter and yeah, it is quite interesting you have to have. Thick skin to be, a firefighter. And to be in this environment all the time. But you know, it's there's a lot of four-letter words that go around, but it's all in good spirits. 

[00:08:14] Pia: And that's not fire that. That's not the word fire though. yeah, we've talked a lot about diversity. That's, what's so interesting about your role and what you're doing. So, so tell us a little bit about how does teamwork work within your fire department and I guess your role, like how has the diversity of roles fit together?

[00:08:35] Sandy: The diversity that we have becomes valued once they get to know we get to know each other and what your specific skill set is. So let's say everyone in terms of diversity, everyone here, all the firefighters, we have other roles. but all the firefighters have to have gone through fire school. And then if you want these additional certifications, like motor vehicle extrication or Swiftwater, Operations or any of these extras, you can get them. But the real leveraging of diversity happens once we get to know each other and especially our leadership gets to know the crew by spending time together. And then they say like, Hey, she's pretty fast actually. And she knows. She knows her radio stuff. So let's put her, I know what she can do. And, but then they might be like she gets cold really easily. So don't put her in the water.

[00:09:29] So it's little subtleties. Like somebody might be a little hesitant to go up, 30, 40 feet on a ladder. Other people don't mind at all. So these little innuendos, you get to know only once you really spend time working with your crew in very, uh, intense situations. But that's a huge advantage that I didn't experience in the corporate world. Although we worked very hard and long together as teams having these intense experiences together, there. Life or death at times, or, that situation, it does really make you get to know each other quickly because you see how people react in good times and in bad. 

[00:10:16] Dan: and do you tend to work with the same group or is it the same team you tend to work with or does that change?

[00:10:21] Sandy: So because we're volunteer firefighters here at our station and most of the stations across the country it's really volunteer. I think it's like 70 or 80%. First of all, we always work as a team of two because one of the first things you learn in fire school is, uh, no freelancing. Freelancing is when you think for yourself, which is fine. We all want to think for ourselves. Chief says, go do something. And you're like, no, I have a better idea. I'll do it this way. That's freelancing. You don't do it. It can be very dangerous. You also don't go into dangerous environments without a partner.

[00:10:55] So everything basically we do here at the fire service is at least a team of two, but then what happens. you get on the truck and you might be working with someone, you're going to get there and you're going to have to force the door. So you and a partner do forcible entry, but then the truck has a whole nother group of people so you're one big team. And then we might get to the scene and, it's like, oh no, this is a non hydrogen. So we have to call in a tanker taskforce. So that's called mutual aid. When you get help from neighboring fire departments, cause we don't have enough resources to handle it or we don't have the resources.

[00:11:32] And then it even expands beyond that the fire service into a national model it's called NIMS or national incident management system. And it provides structure as well as to how teams work together when it comes to national disasters and emergencies and other events. So in the fire service, I would say there's, everything is team based and this whole approach. Supported by very structured guidelines. 

[00:12:03] Pia: And it's, it sounds like it's interesting because we had a conversation with the general last week, and it sounds quite similar to the military. So it's got that sort of freedom within boundaries, got the ability to be able to deal with the situation that you're in, but there's a clear sort of rank and title and sort of a command structure is such that sort of goes through. Is that, Is that similar? 

[00:12:25] Sandy: Very much so, I mean, we have a whole span of control. So there's an ideal team is three to seven targeting five. So it's very structured and we have a specific way of common terminology. So. I'm on the alpha Bravo side of division two smoke showing That's very military.

[00:12:45] There's the whole chain of command, you don't just go to the chief, if you need a new pair of gloves, there's a whole pro you know, and yet at the same time, that sounds very bureaucratic, but it's not. The rules are so clear that when you get to the scene, you know exactly what you chief says, grab a line and put out the attic fire. He doesn't say like how to grab the line or how to climb the stairs or what tools to get. He just gives you those things. So having the structure also gives you the freedom to, act appropriately.

[00:13:19] Dan: And suddenly in the, early, you mentioned the amount of practice you do. It strikes me that you go out, I imagine you, you don't know what you're going to see. See, it must be multiple different scenarios. Everything is different. How do you practice in that situation? What, talk to me about that a little bit. 

[00:13:38] Sandy: Yeah, it's true because we've done a lot of flood rescues during these recent hurricanes. We do fires, we do motor vehicle extrications we do cat and trees. um,

[00:13:50] Pia: Then that's really, really do get, 

[00:13:52] Sandy: we really do cat and trees. If we have the time and we can, manage community service. And we did do one recently. And it was successful 

[00:14:00] Pia: That's good to hear. 

[00:14:01] Sandy: Uh, but when you, drill a lot, so we're constantly doing drills at the station and at the fire academy and on your own. It becomes muscle memory. And so when we get to a scene, it's always a little chaotic, cause you don't really know smoke showing or is it just a fire alarm? What time of the day? What, we don't know who we have it's we don't know which crew we're going to get that kind of thing. So, but by drilling a lot together as a team and even on your own, it becomes muscle memory. So when you grab the line and there's smoke showing up in the app, you're not thinking about how you grabbed that line, you're just grabbing the line. And now you can start focusing on the smoke, showing in the attic and, what's my plan, really going to be aside from what chief told me to do. So, it really frees you up that the training frees you up for higher level team thinking.

[00:14:55] Pia: And I think that far in the attic was a real situation. was it not, 

[00:14:59] Sandy: Yes, there was it was about three 30 in the morning and, you know, So often you get a call and it just says like odor of smoke and it's nothing or odor of gas and it's nothing, but I never really, uh, I always take them pretty seriously. And so, that's where some people say I'm just a little too intense. They're like, you're dressed already. I'm like, you never know. But, that time 

[00:15:21] Pia: Do you get asleep in your fire gear? Do you ever do that? 

[00:15:25] Sandy: I'll give you an example of what I have done for the fire service without getting too personal, because there's other examples. But one example is I used to wear contacts and I could not get up quickly enough and put my contacts in, uh, without like poking my eye or getting mud in my eye or whatever. So, and getting to the call on time in the middle of the night. Then I was sleeping in my contacts and my eye doctor didn't think that was a very good idea either. 

[00:15:50] Pia: Th this is a great light. Well, You wouldn't sleep very well, they sort of stick. 

[00:15:54] Sandy: I got LASIK surgery and fixed it. So I could really handle that situation. Yeah. It's been a challenge. There's been a lot of, uh, different injuries and incidences along the way, but that's kind of par for the the course. 

[00:16:10] Pia: I mean, it's incredible commitment for a voluntary activity. It's not like you're being paid for this.

[00:16:16] Sandy: It really is. There's also two sides. There's the fire department, which is emergency response side, where you have to drill and be in shape and continuously train. And learn, but then there's also the fire company of which I'm a trustee and that's the side where you're maintaining the trucks and the building. And so that takes a ton of effort for the same group of people. And then we do community service. So we do the Sante runs and going into the schools with the kids. So it can suck the living daylight out of you if you're not 

[00:16:50] Pia: Yeah. Yeah. It's a full time, Full time commitment. 

[00:16:54] Sandy: Yes it is. It can be. 

[00:16:56] Dan: And Sandy, it might be a question with an obvious answer, but what drives you to do that? When you could be sitting with your feet up, you don't seem like a sitting with a feet up, so the person, but what drives you in the boots? What drives you in and when it gets really tough and you're tired and what keeps you moving?

[00:17:14] Sandy: Yeah I mean, it's just, it is very rewarding when you get to the scene and you see, like during hurricane Ida, a couple was trapped on top of their car. If they had fallen off the car, it would have been bad news for them. And we had to get, uh, our neighboring town to come over with a boat. And so we're waiting on the road, watching people, the road ahead was so flooded and the couple was hanging on for their life. And we're trying to call them. With flashlights, say like, hang on, can you give them hope? And then, incomes the boat from the neighboring town. And, you know, those things do inspire you to keep going. When you see the girl jump off the boat. and she was so grateful for having been rescued or even the lady whose cat was in the tree, it's very rewarding and, And the community services too, but it can be tiring. It keeps me from doing things that? maybe wouldn't be as healthy too. 

[00:18:09] Pia: Oh, that's very true. I've always been intrigued. You must spend a lot of time and I don't know, I have an image and maybe that's, I'm sure that's wrongly perceived through seeing this on tV, but do you spend a lot of time in the firehouse waiting for the call to come in? and then how did you. What's the dynamic like amongst you as a. team, because you're coming together in this critical incident. But there must be a lot of downtime as well. And as you say, you're also maintaining the vehicles and the firehouse itself. What's the, what's that dynamic like, and what's it like waiting sometimes for these things to happen?

[00:18:44] Sandy: The way our fire department works is where, unless we have a duty crew where we have like a snow storm and we wait, then we just all come from our, wherever we are or homes or are we, so we don't sit here unless there is like a snow storm or something. And I mean, about a week or two ago, we did have a duty crew. I was here from 7:00 AM to one crew, spent the night and I was here from like seven to four the next day, waiting for those calls. And the first thing we did when we got here was someone cooked up the pancakes, the eggs, the bacon, anything you can name that adds cholesterol. It was there. So we start by bonding together over food It's really nice. Then we clean up. Then we might do a little forcible entry practice just for the sake of it. Some shoveling of the snow. And then we're waiting around and usually what happens is four o'clock comes not a single call. We leave 20 minutes later, we're in the shower and we get a call. 

[00:19:40] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:19:41] Sandy: But indeed, when we do get a call, uh, let's say we're calling from home or at the station doing a duty assignment. It's just pretty incredible. Everyone you're not supposed to run. So everyone hustles in goes to their gear rack gets dressed in like a minute. Digger's out which truck to go on based on what type of call figures out. Who's going to go on which truck based on who we have it's slim pickings and the volunteer organization. So, it's not like we have 20 people and we're going, okay, you four, you big guys, you go on this truck. Cause we're going to need strong ones on this one and you little guys, we're doing confined space, go on this truck. We, you kind of get what you get. And then once you're on the train, whoever's the officer takes a look around and say like, does a quick size up.

[00:20:27] Before you even get to the incident where you do a size up, they do a size up about which team we have. And let's say they're all firefighters, we have different subtle skills. Some are more bossy, others are stronger. Some people are more, just agile with their tools. Uh, They have to make a quick size up and figure out how best to optimize the team very quickly. Like sometimes it's three minutes and we're on scene, 

[00:20:55] Pia: That's so fast.

[00:20:56] Dan: incredible. And sunday, you mentioned earlier that the things that can be four-letter words thrown around, it can be quite blunt. What, what are you, are you, is there a lot of feedback goes on in this team, but you know, built on that level of trust you, do you, get, what does that look like? 

[00:21:11] Sandy: Everybody really. I mean, for the most part we all get along. And when I say we have four letter words, or they're kind of funny and they're all set in jest and everything because we've all worked together, so intensely, uh, we know each other we don't necessarily all like each other super, super well, we're not all best friends. We're not at all similar we're at different ages. Talents and skill sets and health levels and everything. But, uh, we do know each other well. So usually when someone says something, we know where it's coming from, it's usually meant with the good 

[00:21:50] Dan: Yeah. Yeah. 

[00:21:52] Sandy: back. So it's not a problem 

[00:21:55] Pia: And d and what's the debrief process. We again, talking to the general, he was talking about hot debriefs, which would be in a fire situation, but do you take the learnings and how do you do that process after an incident? 

[00:22:10] Sandy: Yeah, absolutely. Some, sometimes we have formal debriefs back at the station on our monthly Wednesday night meeting, but so often we have debriefs right then and there, we just. An incident, uh, a structure fire, or motor vehicle accident. And right there, the chief will grab us or one of the officers, or even our chief engineer who has a lot of experience grab us and just say like, Hey, this went well, this didn't go so well. you know, I've been told by the chief, like, where's your tool? And I'm like I have a water can, and I've got a thermal imaging camera. He's like, that's not a tool. You know? so they tell you right away, like you're not holding a tool. Where's your tool. I got off to go to the attic fire and it was like a perfect. Pull up the line, but right then and there, the chief engineers, like a other way, the house is because the chief had parked in a different driveway and he's like other way. So you get feedback on the spot sometimes, even during an incident.

[00:23:11] Pia: And you've got to be able to take that. Then that's, all with the, greater intense that it's for your safety and the safety of the people that you're working with. 

[00:23:20] Sandy: Right. And I mean, it's very intense. So the driver gets in the truck and we got to know where to go. And if you're in the officer seat, you better know you had to have gotten the page from home, gotten to the station, got dressed, gotten an officer, see know how to tell the driver where to go. And then call county tell them that you're responding and then count command that you're arriving on location.

[00:23:43] So sometimes there is a little, the voices raise, like where are we going? Like, don't you ever get in that front seat unless, cause you have to be responsible if you're going to get in there. And if you make a mistake, we all forgive each other. But we don't want people to do it again. And when you're in the heat of the moment, uh, You have to just forget anybody's loud voices and just move on. We usually do. 

[00:24:08] Dan: Yeah.

[00:24:09] Pia: Yeah, I bet. I bet. 

[00:24:10] Sandy: on it. 

[00:24:11] Dan: Yeah, there's a job to do. And sandy, we're very fortunate because you've seen so many teams, you've taken us into this world, which is almost unimaginable for most people, I think. You've also worked in this in corporate America, as you said, in your six sigma role. what would you extract from this that as you look back, look at your take a sort of step back and look at this. What's at the heart of teamwork for you? 

[00:24:35] Sandy: I really think the secret sauce here is that we know each other so well. And again, it's not that we like each other. so much, but we know each other so well and we trust each other. And because of that and because of the strict rules, We have, we actually have freedom as a team, like an agile team. Would we have the freedom to just do as long as we stick within those guidelines, as long as we don't freelance, uh, we have, the ability to work as a team and get the job done. But I think the one advice I would give for people in corporate is if there was a way to get to know your, team and it's hard with COVID, especially. To get to know your team better, especially if it's a new employee or anything like that. But even if there was a way to, you're not really putting those intense experiences that we are, that helps bond us really quickly, but maybe there's some kind of volunteerism that the company can do, like, Habitat for Humanity, build a house together, do something intense, running a marathon for, breast cancer, whatever it is, do something hard to get. Even if it's for a very short period of time, it might help the team dynamics going forward if you know where people are coming from. 

[00:25:49] Pia: I think that's so true because it brings out a different side. Doesn't it. And that having to dig a dig deeper and that level of contribution, there must be so much to gain from the. I think that's a really, that, the more you give, the more you get thing, and that's not the reason for doing it, but that's definitely must be a huge value to yourself and to the team. 

[00:26:10] Sandy: It is. And it's the more you give the more you get, but it's also the more you get to know each other, the more you can leverage each other's skills and also know about their weaknesses and not like pressure them in those areas. And it's not related to know their skill, cause it's not. Are you certified? And you know, it's more of these soft skills, your ability to learn something. How do you learn, how do you react?

[00:26:33] In the corporate world, it's not, do you know how to use a certain software? It's how well can you learn software? That's more of the important question so you know, That's the difference. It's not looking at somebody going, these are the skills they have, but these are the abilities

[00:26:49] Pia: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, final question from me, I'm sure there's listeners out here who are in teams and maybe they feel that they are pigeonholed because they are the only male in the team or the only female in the team. What advice would you give to them?

[00:27:06] Sandy: I mean for me, if you feeling pigeonholed, I hate to say this, but you just work harder. I mean, you have to work smarter too, but I found when I first came to the join the fire company, it was very hard because I'm a female. I wasn't like a handy person. I had a family of boys. They always fixed everything for me.

[00:27:27] So I had no background and it was at first discouraging. I had to work really hard to even sort of prove myself at a baseline point. And then I, but I find now that if I ever feel like discouraged, the thing that picks me up the most is like learning a new skill because then I feel better about myself. So if someone's feeling pigeon-holed, I would say. Try to get out there and learn some new skills and, you w you'll it'll be self fulfilling prophecy. 

[00:27:55] Pia: Very wise, 30 wise. Wow. No, and I just, I think your story is. Powerful for such a number of reasons. and it's just been, just such a huge opportunity for us to be able to talk to you because you're, you've got a clear understanding around teams and, and you put yourself in a life or death situation, which many volunteers don't do. So it's been a real privilege. Thank you so much for being on We Not Me, 

[00:28:25] Sandy: Thank you so much. It's been an honor to be here. I really appreciate your including me in this wonderful. podcast. So thank you.

[00:28:31] Pia: And enjoy your holiday and don't answer the phone.

[00:28:34] Dan: Exactly. 

[00:28:34] Pia: That is such a rich discussion. I feel incredibly privileged to have listened to Sunday today. What, uh, picked up there was a few things, but it was a different take on diversity, I found. We had a chat with Sahara around that, and it was a different way of looking at it. This was all. Agenda neutral view of diversity. If that is possible, I might be making it up, but sort of keep going with where the situation was looking at the diverse skills and what was needed for the situation. So somebody that was small could go into an attic, somebody that. Strong can pick up the 35 foot ladder. And there's that level of teamwork that you're not precious and holding onto a task and it doesn't define you. It's about what's needed in that situation. 

[00:29:29] Dan: Agreed. Agreed. I thought she also touched on the mindset that people, doing how confident people would be in certain situations. And so, yeah, it was a genuinely pretty advanced form of diversity. And I imagine when you're in dangerous situation, Everything else falls away and you just think right. Who is the right person for that job. And and off you go it's it, yeah it's a, there's a lesson there in for all teams, I think, to think about diverse in that really broad, broad way. 

[00:29:58] Pia: I loved the no freelancing. That wasn't anything to do with Moonlight or anything like that. But it was very much about that in that tense high-risk situation, you've got to follow a set of ways of doing things and you can't just suddenly become innovative. And I think that's an interesting one because they, these are tried and tested and they're done to save people and to save the people who are saving people. So you can see that when the risk is high. So that's a, you've got to have that. Everyone sticks to that rule.

[00:30:33] Dan: You could imagine in those situations it would be tempting to go off plan, to do something that you think is good, but ultimately puts you or the crew in danger or even the people you're trying to save. So that's an important role there. And yeah, I think the same with all teams isn't it. We see this where the team's doing one strategy, but there are still people who are still on the old one or still doing things or try or whatever. So just doing their things their own way. And really bringing the team onto one page is sort of, yeah, the no freelancing sort of by word was great. 

[00:31:05] And it ties into something else I took away, which actually Jim Molan talked about, which is practice. I was really surprised to hear how much you're able to practice when you're going to see different things. But I really liked her expression and practice what you can because then. Once you just practice things, that are going to happen so that when you're then in the moment and things are happening for the first time that you weren't expected, your brain is actually ready to deal with them. You're leaving brain sprays for it.

[00:31:32] Pia: I started this once in sports psychology, it's called your schemers and you relegate your schema to a lower level, which means that you're learning a bunch of skills. You've got that down, pat, and it creates this sort of light, this airspace for you to be able to really then scan the horizon. Really pick up almost intuitively a whole different set of information. So you can't do that when you're a beginner, because you're over, you're overwhelmed. But when you get to that level you relegate that level of knowledge. 

[00:32:02] Dan: I think you put things on you into your limbic brains, your basal ganglia. It sounds awful, but I think that part of the brain uses very little energy. It's incredibly efficient, isn't it? So it's we like to put things there if we can, but it's only through practice that we do that. And I think Pete, you and I, in our work, we've started to do a bit more practicing of things having heard from Jim, but Sandy's really reinforced that there are things that even in our complex, crazy changing world that we know will happen and that we can actually practice, 

[00:32:29] Pia: I, because of the culture around that practice and making it count, then you're going to really invest in it. Whereas I think sometimes we think that we can, skid in sideways and by our fantastic individual brilliance, achieve that outcome. But really this is about teamwork to work, needs to, it needs to work and practice together. 

[00:32:50] Dan: I don't know what you're talking about. There's this show pony has never been taken out for a run around the paddock. 

[00:32:55] Pia: Never So re a really great discussion. So, and they keep rolling on. So tell us about next week.

[00:33:03] Dan: In a way where we're sort of staying at the front line, we're going to be talking to Martin Bromley, OBE, who his wife tragically died in a routine operation. And since then he has campaigned for teams, clinical teams. To include human factors in their training because it was actually a teamwork issue, not a clinical issue that ended up with this tragedy.

[00:33:27] So, we will have an amazing discussion with Martin, I think next week, uh, looking again at a frontline team. 

[00:33:33] Pia: that'd be a very poignant conversation, but I think a very powerful to be able to learn from such a tragic situation.

[00:33:39] Dan: Definitely. And so we're really looking forward to that, but that is it for this week's show. You can find the show notes and resources at Squadify dot net. Just click on the we, not me podcast link under resources. Um, If you've enjoyed the show, please share the love and recommend it to your friends. And also please go onto your favorite platform and give us a nice review. We'd really appreciate that.

[00:34:01] We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:34:07] Pia: And it's goodbye for me.