WEBVTT 00:00:03.030 --> 00:00:07.170 Matt Abrahams: Effective communication is about presence, not performance. 00:00:07.380 --> 00:00:10.770 My name's Matt Abrahams and I teach strategic communication at 00:00:10.770 --> 00:00:12.235 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:12.930 --> 00:00:16.260 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:16.800 --> 00:00:20.070 Today I'm really excited to speak with my friend Dr. Kate Mason. 00:00:20.610 --> 00:00:24.570 Kate is a world champion debater, executive communication coach, and author. 00:00:24.930 --> 00:00:28.020 She helps senior executives navigate critical and challenging 00:00:28.020 --> 00:00:31.920 communication situations along with what she calls the tricky act of 00:00:31.920 --> 00:00:34.170 communicating while female at work. 00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:36.629 Her new book is called Powerfully Likable. 00:00:37.640 --> 00:00:38.600 Well, welcome Kate. 00:00:38.629 --> 00:00:40.850 I am excited to have you here in person. 00:00:41.030 --> 00:00:44.089 I know the Bay Area used to be your home, and now you live in Australia, 00:00:44.089 --> 00:00:45.560 which is one of my favorite places. 00:00:45.560 --> 00:00:46.220 Thanks for being here. 00:00:46.310 --> 00:00:47.540 Kate Mason: Oh, I'm so pleased to be here, Matt. 00:00:47.540 --> 00:00:48.320 Thanks for having me. 00:00:48.379 --> 00:00:48.860 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:48.860 --> 00:00:49.610 Shall we get started? 00:00:49.670 --> 00:00:50.239 Kate Mason: Let's do it. 00:00:50.239 --> 00:00:50.810 Matt Abrahams: All right. 00:00:51.350 --> 00:00:54.019 Confidence is a big theme in your book and your work. 00:00:54.349 --> 00:00:57.860 In fact, you have a chapter called Kill Your Confidence. 00:00:58.160 --> 00:01:02.209 You argue that confidence is a supremely unhelpful concept. 00:01:02.685 --> 00:01:06.465 As someone who has spent a lot of my life helping people to feel more confident 00:01:06.465 --> 00:01:10.665 in their communication, can you help us understand your thoughts on confidence? 00:01:10.995 --> 00:01:14.145 Kate Mason: I think we're aligned, Matt, on wanting people to be confident, 00:01:14.145 --> 00:01:18.015 but what I find is the interesting part is when people tell someone else, 00:01:18.345 --> 00:01:19.575 you've just gotta be more confident. 00:01:19.575 --> 00:01:20.685 And there's a couple of reasons. 00:01:21.015 --> 00:01:24.045 One, I think it's supremely unactionable feedback. 00:01:24.195 --> 00:01:26.415 It's the outcome, but not the process. 00:01:26.715 --> 00:01:29.025 So it's a little bit like telling someone just be healthier 00:01:29.295 --> 00:01:31.065 or win a gold medal, right? 00:01:31.065 --> 00:01:33.525 It sounds good in theory, but like, how do I get there? 00:01:33.675 --> 00:01:37.665 And the process is so different for all of us, that it's not about following 00:01:37.665 --> 00:01:42.495 a listicle or three steps to, it, it's nuanced and it requires some thought. 00:01:42.495 --> 00:01:44.055 So that's one of the reasons. 00:01:44.384 --> 00:01:47.744 I think the more important reason is that when we tell someone to be more 00:01:47.744 --> 00:01:52.035 confident, we actually get them out of their surroundings and into their head. 00:01:52.425 --> 00:01:55.845 So we start self surveilling and being very cognizant of every 00:01:55.845 --> 00:01:57.494 movement, like was that confident? 00:01:57.494 --> 00:01:58.395 Did I sound confident? 00:01:58.395 --> 00:01:59.354 Am I looking confident? 00:01:59.744 --> 00:02:01.815 And what I want people to do is actually get out of their 00:02:01.815 --> 00:02:03.494 head and into the meeting. 00:02:03.764 --> 00:02:05.804 So am I being of service? 00:02:05.804 --> 00:02:06.675 Am I connecting? 00:02:06.675 --> 00:02:07.664 Am I listening? 00:02:07.935 --> 00:02:11.594 And that actually ultimately looks confident but we're not thinking 00:02:11.609 --> 00:02:13.079 about it as the main driver. 00:02:13.500 --> 00:02:16.020 Matt Abrahams: So it's not that we don't want people confident, it's 00:02:16.020 --> 00:02:18.990 we don't want people in their head worried about being confident. 00:02:19.170 --> 00:02:24.329 So can you share with us how you help people to feel more confident, 00:02:24.329 --> 00:02:26.010 and therefore, act more confidently? 00:02:26.100 --> 00:02:28.709 Kate Mason: Yeah, so a lot of it is, I think authenticity is 00:02:28.709 --> 00:02:30.179 an overused word these days. 00:02:30.179 --> 00:02:31.500 It's lost its meaning a little bit. 00:02:31.500 --> 00:02:36.329 But my main philosophy is how do we reduce the delta between your real 00:02:36.329 --> 00:02:38.549 self and that corporate persona? 00:02:38.554 --> 00:02:42.989 Because I think the bigger that delta is, the more performative we are at 00:02:42.989 --> 00:02:48.029 work especially, the harder it is to communicate effectively and comfortably. 00:02:48.340 --> 00:02:49.540 Because it's exhausting. 00:02:49.540 --> 00:02:50.320 It's draining. 00:02:50.440 --> 00:02:53.650 But if we can bring that closer to actually who we are and work 00:02:53.650 --> 00:02:57.100 out what are the things we already have at our disposal, am I a good 00:02:57.100 --> 00:02:58.959 rapport builder or a good listener? 00:02:59.260 --> 00:03:01.959 That's where an excellent communication can come from. 00:03:01.959 --> 00:03:04.720 So that's my mission to make that delta smaller. 00:03:05.145 --> 00:03:06.375 Matt Abrahams: Sure, and that makes a lot of sense. 00:03:06.375 --> 00:03:09.105 It sounds to me like people could take an inventory of what works 00:03:09.105 --> 00:03:12.945 for them and then try to bring that forward into the situation. 00:03:13.245 --> 00:03:16.484 And I like what you said earlier, if we approach it as, I am in service 00:03:16.484 --> 00:03:20.445 of these people, or I'm here to add value, that changes the dynamic. 00:03:20.445 --> 00:03:23.265 It's not, I'm here to perform and they are evaluating me. 00:03:23.820 --> 00:03:27.510 So I like this idea of bringing your true self where you have strengths and seeing 00:03:27.510 --> 00:03:32.880 yourself as in service of or part of this, and that takes that spotlight off of you. 00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:35.220 Kate Mason: It really does, and no one ever says, thanks so 00:03:35.220 --> 00:03:36.600 much for that confident meeting. 00:03:36.840 --> 00:03:39.605 They say, thanks so much for your ideas, for the brainstorm, for listening. 00:03:40.155 --> 00:03:43.545 So as much as we can invest in those areas, that's actually where 00:03:43.545 --> 00:03:44.894 the generative stuff happens. 00:03:45.015 --> 00:03:48.734 Matt Abrahams: It's amazing how much we can do by how we frame our circumstances, 00:03:48.734 --> 00:03:50.085 especially around confidence. 00:03:50.085 --> 00:03:52.845 And if we lean into our strengths, we can go in feeling 00:03:52.845 --> 00:03:54.075 more comfortable and confident. 00:03:54.075 --> 00:03:55.215 So thank you for that. 00:03:55.394 --> 00:03:58.935 In a related way, you spend time discussing imposing 00:03:58.935 --> 00:04:01.245 syndrome, not imposter syndrome. 00:04:01.740 --> 00:04:05.010 What is imposing syndrome and how does it show up in communication 00:04:05.010 --> 00:04:06.210 and what can we do about it? 00:04:06.450 --> 00:04:11.670 Kate Mason: Yeah, so imposing syndrome is what I call a series of behaviors where 00:04:11.670 --> 00:04:17.010 we are afraid to make an imposition on someone else, and it usually shows up when 00:04:17.010 --> 00:04:22.530 we are asking for time or for resources or for someone's energy on something. 00:04:22.590 --> 00:04:27.300 And we say things like, it'll just take two seconds, or, I'm probably 00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:31.080 not the expert, or I'm sure you've already thought about this, right? 00:04:31.080 --> 00:04:35.909 We are so reluctant to cause a fuss or to ruffle feathers that before we've even 00:04:35.909 --> 00:04:41.070 actually got to the ask, kind of taken our legs out from under us in doing so. 00:04:41.280 --> 00:04:46.200 And what it actually does in practice is it diminishes the ask itself. 00:04:46.530 --> 00:04:49.469 I assume that me taking two seconds of your time is not to 00:04:49.469 --> 00:04:51.030 show you something very important. 00:04:51.419 --> 00:04:54.990 And by extension it minimizes ourselves that maybe we aren't 00:04:54.990 --> 00:04:56.520 worthy of taking up your time. 00:04:56.940 --> 00:05:00.180 And so one of the things I work with, particularly folks I coach, is. 00:05:00.570 --> 00:05:04.515 Let's think about what is pushing that resistance when you're making the ask. 00:05:05.205 --> 00:05:08.205 And let's think about, again, reframing that ask in a way 00:05:08.205 --> 00:05:09.525 that's just more comfortable. 00:05:09.525 --> 00:05:13.215 Like, Matt, I'm gonna put thirty minutes in with you next week to talk about X, 00:05:13.215 --> 00:05:15.315 Y, Z. Let me know if that works for you. 00:05:15.465 --> 00:05:18.015 It's the same ask, but it's a very different mindset 00:05:18.015 --> 00:05:18.945 with which we approach it. 00:05:19.215 --> 00:05:21.734 Matt Abrahams: So what we do is we hedge when we're afraid that we are going 00:05:21.734 --> 00:05:27.015 to impose, and therefore we come at it with less strength, less power, and we 00:05:27.015 --> 00:05:30.375 devalue, potentially, in the eyes of the person or people we want to meet with the 00:05:30.434 --> 00:05:32.205 value of what it is we're talking about. 00:05:32.730 --> 00:05:37.380 Are there ways that you coach people to become aware of themselves doing this? 00:05:37.380 --> 00:05:41.730 This, this to me, strikes me as just very habitual, especially when you might be 00:05:41.730 --> 00:05:45.990 new to an organization or focusing on something that's a new topic to yourself. 00:05:46.290 --> 00:05:50.160 How can we be alert to the fact that we are actually a 00:05:50.160 --> 00:05:52.140 victim of imposing syndrome? 00:05:52.200 --> 00:05:52.620 Kate Mason: Yeah. 00:05:52.710 --> 00:05:53.970 Part of it is listening. 00:05:54.150 --> 00:05:58.740 When I'm with a client, I will notice and reflect back, but part of it is also, you 00:05:58.740 --> 00:06:00.690 spoke earlier about taking an inventory. 00:06:01.094 --> 00:06:02.325 I really encourage that. 00:06:02.354 --> 00:06:05.205 Where did you feel great today in your communication, right? 00:06:05.354 --> 00:06:08.294 Was there a meeting that you walked out of and thought that went so well? 00:06:08.414 --> 00:06:09.974 You know, it landed exactly as I wanted. 00:06:09.974 --> 00:06:13.395 And were there other moments where you felt reticence or resistance? 00:06:13.604 --> 00:06:18.875 Take note of those too because they're very instructive to tell us, I noticed, 00:06:19.025 --> 00:06:22.055 you know, there was a power imbalance in that room and I felt smaller 00:06:22.055 --> 00:06:26.405 or more junior, and I found myself shrinking or disclaiming or hedging. 00:06:26.645 --> 00:06:28.655 That can just be a good first step. 00:06:28.655 --> 00:06:33.455 Just mapping the terrain to then decide, are those things serving me and maybe do 00:06:33.455 --> 00:06:37.594 I wanna change them, experiment with them, or maybe I wanna keep them as is as well. 00:06:37.924 --> 00:06:41.284 Matt Abrahams: I am a huge fan and advocate for reflection like that. 00:06:41.685 --> 00:06:45.255 Many of us are just so glad to have survived or gotten through whatever 00:06:45.255 --> 00:06:48.885 that gauntlet of communication was, that we don't turn around and reflect. 00:06:48.885 --> 00:06:52.425 And I love what you said about not just reflecting on what went well, 00:06:52.425 --> 00:06:56.115 but look at what didn't go so well and are there patterns and behaviors 00:06:56.115 --> 00:06:59.925 that you're invoking, or perhaps not, that you want to work on. 00:06:59.925 --> 00:07:02.235 So it's not enough just to complete the task. 00:07:02.235 --> 00:07:03.465 It's valuable to go back. 00:07:03.735 --> 00:07:06.525 I like to tell my students there's that definition of insanity doing 00:07:06.525 --> 00:07:09.015 the same thing over and over again, expecting different results, and 00:07:09.015 --> 00:07:10.425 that's how many of us communicate. 00:07:10.515 --> 00:07:13.815 So I really like this idea of reflecting on the activities 00:07:13.815 --> 00:07:14.955 and the communication you have. 00:07:14.955 --> 00:07:15.585 Thank you for that. 00:07:16.000 --> 00:07:18.760 I do wanna know a little bit about your thoughts on imposter syndrome 00:07:18.760 --> 00:07:22.690 because many people I know, myself included, certainly have moments 00:07:22.690 --> 00:07:27.130 where I feel like I am an imposter in this room or compared to others. 00:07:27.400 --> 00:07:29.980 How do you see that play out and what do you advise people 00:07:29.980 --> 00:07:31.390 to do to manage some of that? 00:07:31.539 --> 00:07:33.760 Kate Mason: My thoughts on imposter syndrome are that all 00:07:33.760 --> 00:07:35.080 of the wrong people have it. 00:07:35.355 --> 00:07:39.735 I would love to have a global redistribution system whereby everyone 00:07:39.735 --> 00:07:42.975 who feels like they have it could just mentally donate it to somebody else. 00:07:43.305 --> 00:07:46.425 To my mind, the word imposter always invokes some sort of 00:07:46.425 --> 00:07:49.905 deception, and I always ask people, do you feel that you are trying 00:07:49.905 --> 00:07:51.705 to intentionally deceive anybody? 00:07:51.855 --> 00:07:53.115 The answer is usually no. 00:07:53.115 --> 00:07:53.410 Of course not. 00:07:54.080 --> 00:07:56.750 I just feel like I'm new or I'm inexperienced. 00:07:56.960 --> 00:08:01.310 And so the answer is you might be new or inexperienced, and that's okay. 00:08:01.310 --> 00:08:05.450 In fact, that's entirely reasonable and normal, and it's maybe not all on you. 00:08:05.479 --> 00:08:08.780 Maybe the institution hasn't been as welcoming and there's a lot of 00:08:08.780 --> 00:08:12.650 great research out there around the institutions needing to also shift to 00:08:12.650 --> 00:08:14.479 accommodate folks to feel more welcome. 00:08:14.479 --> 00:08:19.039 So I think when we, again, get into our head about it, it's easy and seductive to 00:08:19.039 --> 00:08:21.049 stay there and self-flagellate about it. 00:08:21.735 --> 00:08:25.095 A nicer way to think about it is if I am self-aware enough that 00:08:25.095 --> 00:08:28.935 I am experiencing this feeling, I'm probably doing a great job. 00:08:29.205 --> 00:08:32.355 So maybe just put it down and get to the work and you'll 00:08:32.355 --> 00:08:33.645 start feeling a lot better. 00:08:33.914 --> 00:08:35.715 Matt Abrahams: What a really cool tool. 00:08:35.715 --> 00:08:39.615 If I am feeling like I don't fit or I'm feeling like I'm an imposter, 00:08:39.705 --> 00:08:42.405 the fact that you are having that feeling probably signals that you're 00:08:42.405 --> 00:08:44.025 not because you're self-aware. 00:08:44.145 --> 00:08:47.835 And what I often will coach, and what I try to remind myself, is that often 00:08:47.835 --> 00:08:50.025 in these situations I was invited. 00:08:50.345 --> 00:08:54.155 Or there was an expectation that there was value that I would bring 00:08:54.455 --> 00:08:58.115 and reminding myself of that helps dampen down some of those feelings. 00:08:58.115 --> 00:08:58.925 So thank you for that. 00:08:58.925 --> 00:09:03.215 I really like this idea of redistributing those who feel the imposter syndrome. 00:09:03.575 --> 00:09:08.015 You write about the tension between being agreeable and being assertive. 00:09:08.105 --> 00:09:12.245 Can you define what those concepts are and why they're tricky, especially for women. 00:09:12.455 --> 00:09:16.595 Kate Mason: So as I came into leadership myself, I always felt that 00:09:16.595 --> 00:09:18.325 there were really only two options. 00:09:18.705 --> 00:09:22.125 And I thought of them as, you could be powerful, you know, high authority, 00:09:22.155 --> 00:09:26.805 no friends, and you could be likable, low authority, and lots of friends. 00:09:27.045 --> 00:09:29.865 And I always thought that was a really unfair binary, right? 00:09:29.865 --> 00:09:33.465 It didn't seem accurate and it also didn't seem particularly fair. 00:09:33.645 --> 00:09:37.275 And I think that's exactly that assertive versus agreeable tension a 00:09:37.275 --> 00:09:41.085 lot of us, particularly women, feel although some men feel too, which 00:09:41.085 --> 00:09:43.065 is, how do I strike this balance? 00:09:43.455 --> 00:09:46.095 That chasm feels really difficult to navigate. 00:09:46.530 --> 00:09:50.850 I think about those two things as not ends of a binary, but of 00:09:50.880 --> 00:09:53.430 as actual partners or neighbors. 00:09:53.880 --> 00:09:58.410 So instead of feeling like there's this one way choice or only one of 00:09:58.410 --> 00:10:03.660 those doors to take, actually, it's often in the counterintuitive couplings 00:10:04.050 --> 00:10:08.700 of words or language that might feel dissonant, but actually can be very 00:10:08.700 --> 00:10:10.200 generative when we bring it together. 00:10:10.590 --> 00:10:15.210 So I talk to people about what interesting, counterintuitive things 00:10:15.210 --> 00:10:19.290 might you identify with, and what leadership style or communication 00:10:19.290 --> 00:10:20.520 style can we bring out of that? 00:10:20.520 --> 00:10:25.920 So I hear fantastic things like, I'm competitively calm, right? 00:10:26.130 --> 00:10:30.150 Or I'm ambitiously communal, or I'm powerfully likable. 00:10:30.360 --> 00:10:35.720 These interesting neighbors or friends that actually often, particularly 00:10:35.745 --> 00:10:39.915 women, who may not see their communication style at top levels of 00:10:39.915 --> 00:10:41.745 leadership can feel like, no, wait. 00:10:41.745 --> 00:10:43.125 That's exactly who I am. 00:10:43.425 --> 00:10:46.605 I'm ambitious because I want the best, but I'm communal because 00:10:46.605 --> 00:10:48.194 I want my whole team to succeed. 00:10:48.584 --> 00:10:52.965 So I think part of this is about giving ourselves and others language 00:10:53.834 --> 00:10:57.975 to inhabit and be able to summon that self in our communication. 00:10:58.425 --> 00:11:02.205 Matt Abrahams: I like that you are saying these are not binary, that there, 00:11:02.205 --> 00:11:03.615 there's a way to blend them together. 00:11:03.615 --> 00:11:06.255 I envisioned, as you were talking about the yin yang symbol where 00:11:06.255 --> 00:11:07.485 they feed into each other. 00:11:07.815 --> 00:11:11.025 And I really like that activity of thinking about different parts 00:11:11.025 --> 00:11:13.995 of your personality and put them together and really think about how 00:11:13.995 --> 00:11:16.215 you show up in that duality, right? 00:11:16.215 --> 00:11:17.085 In that tension. 00:11:17.235 --> 00:11:21.730 And as you were speaking, I'm thinking I am communally curious, you know, because 00:11:21.730 --> 00:11:26.590 curiosity can often be very self-centered or selfish, but I really believe that I am 00:11:26.590 --> 00:11:28.660 communally curious and I love that idea. 00:11:28.900 --> 00:11:32.230 So once somebody has identified that, do you help them see the next 00:11:32.230 --> 00:11:33.640 step of how do you embody that? 00:11:33.640 --> 00:11:34.750 How do you be that? 00:11:34.990 --> 00:11:37.720 Kate Mason: Yeah, so I have an exercise in the book actually, which goes 00:11:37.720 --> 00:11:39.340 through that, but yes, exactly right. 00:11:39.340 --> 00:11:43.390 It's about thinking instead of this performative professional self 00:11:43.390 --> 00:11:44.740 that we sort of envisage, right? 00:11:45.185 --> 00:11:47.105 High heels, briefcase, suit. 00:11:47.285 --> 00:11:49.685 What are those words doing for us? 00:11:49.685 --> 00:11:51.365 What do they activate in us? 00:11:51.545 --> 00:11:56.585 Is it that I'm really good at relationship building or very good at detecting how 00:11:56.585 --> 00:12:00.875 to manage my team and seeing the feelings in them, or whatever it might be. 00:12:00.995 --> 00:12:03.905 We understand what that is, and then I work on practices of 00:12:03.905 --> 00:12:07.775 essentially working how could I summon that person, if you like? 00:12:07.835 --> 00:12:10.955 Which sounds a little woo woo, but how do I bring them to the fore 00:12:10.955 --> 00:12:12.005 when I'm gonna write an email? 00:12:12.225 --> 00:12:16.005 What does an email from a communally curious person look like? 00:12:16.245 --> 00:12:20.295 And oftentimes that's the unlock people need to be like, oh gosh, I 00:12:20.295 --> 00:12:23.925 don't need to be sitting here worrying about the number of exclamation points 00:12:23.985 --> 00:12:27.405 or how many times I've said thank you, or sorry, or all these things 00:12:27.405 --> 00:12:28.845 that I think we get caught up on. 00:12:28.965 --> 00:12:34.455 And more quickly go to that self-talking, which is usually a much easier way to 00:12:34.455 --> 00:12:36.525 foreground them or bring them into being. 00:12:36.775 --> 00:12:40.135 So I find some of the coaching is just like, let's work on bringing them 00:12:40.135 --> 00:12:43.915 to the fore because if they're real parts of you, they're there already. 00:12:44.215 --> 00:12:48.445 I think of it as like an uncovering rather than a totally building from scratch. 00:12:48.685 --> 00:12:51.925 Matt Abrahams: I hear in that both a recognition of what's there and 00:12:51.925 --> 00:12:55.225 then giving yourself permission to bring that part of you forward. 00:12:55.345 --> 00:12:59.965 If you were to go to an AI tool and say, write an email in the tone of 00:12:59.965 --> 00:13:02.935 this, or with this approach, it would do that, and what you're actually 00:13:02.935 --> 00:13:04.500 saying is just do that with yourself. 00:13:04.590 --> 00:13:06.810 Kate Mason: Be a better prompt engineer of your own self. 00:13:08.189 --> 00:13:10.740 Matt Abrahams: And while you know I say that with tongue in cheek, 00:13:10.740 --> 00:13:12.330 I think there's power in that. 00:13:12.330 --> 00:13:15.689 It really invites us to pull forward who we are and to worry 00:13:15.689 --> 00:13:19.500 less about who we think others want us to be, or we should be. 00:13:19.905 --> 00:13:20.205 Kate Mason: Yes. 00:13:20.205 --> 00:13:23.895 That's really key, especially I think in corporate or work contexts where 00:13:23.895 --> 00:13:27.735 there's enough surveillance and self surveillance going on without us 00:13:27.735 --> 00:13:29.625 always bringing that attention there. 00:13:29.625 --> 00:13:31.635 So it counters that quite nicely. 00:13:31.665 --> 00:13:32.595 I think you're exactly right. 00:13:32.775 --> 00:13:36.285 Matt Abrahams: And what I've found in my own life is when you do bring out that 00:13:36.285 --> 00:13:40.645 true part of your personality and you communicate in that way, others feel more 00:13:40.645 --> 00:13:44.485 comfortable bringing out their own, and all of a sudden you have this authenticity 00:13:44.485 --> 00:13:46.675 party that you might not always get. 00:13:46.675 --> 00:13:49.825 And so it can help you, but it might also help your group, 00:13:49.825 --> 00:13:51.235 your team, your organization. 00:13:51.505 --> 00:13:55.194 I really like that idea of combining disparate parts, so 00:13:55.194 --> 00:13:56.185 thank you for sharing that. 00:13:56.495 --> 00:13:59.435 As you well know, and you and I have talked about this often in our other types 00:13:59.435 --> 00:14:04.625 of communication, that communication isn't just about what we say, but how we say it. 00:14:04.625 --> 00:14:08.315 In fact, sometimes our non-verbal presence, what you do with your 00:14:08.315 --> 00:14:11.225 body and your voice, is more important than what you say. 00:14:11.525 --> 00:14:15.485 What advice and guidance do you have around how we say what we 00:14:15.485 --> 00:14:19.115 say that can help us feel more confident, more powerful, more 00:14:19.115 --> 00:14:20.495 belonging in our environments? 00:14:21.180 --> 00:14:22.440 Kate Mason: It's such a beautiful question. 00:14:22.440 --> 00:14:26.910 I have a lot of people who come to me and say, I need to be more warm, or I need to 00:14:26.910 --> 00:14:29.820 be more insert your new adjective here. 00:14:30.060 --> 00:14:32.910 And I say, I'm not gonna help you be more warm if that's not 00:14:32.910 --> 00:14:34.590 what's coming naturally to you. 00:14:34.800 --> 00:14:38.310 What I am gonna help you is work out the thing you're already doing, 00:14:38.400 --> 00:14:41.520 the thing you're already saying, so let's work out how to make that 00:14:41.520 --> 00:14:43.230 comfortable for people around you. 00:14:43.230 --> 00:14:46.180 So a good example maybe to help illustrate, I work with a 00:14:46.180 --> 00:14:49.329 woman who, she would call her language pretty transactional. 00:14:49.360 --> 00:14:52.360 She goes into kind of an abrupt action mode, right? 00:14:52.360 --> 00:14:53.530 She's very incisive. 00:14:53.530 --> 00:14:54.579 She goes straight to the point. 00:14:54.790 --> 00:14:57.520 And she came to me saying, I really need to be more warm because I've 00:14:57.520 --> 00:15:00.430 had this feedback that I'm not friendly or I'm not approachable. 00:15:00.635 --> 00:15:04.985 I thought the last thing I wanna do is make this woman step outside and be very 00:15:04.985 --> 00:15:09.185 performative when it just wasn't in her natural vibe from having met with her. 00:15:09.245 --> 00:15:11.885 And so I said, a tool here you could use, which I think a lot 00:15:11.885 --> 00:15:14.975 of people could use in different situations, is to just call it out. 00:15:15.185 --> 00:15:18.915 So she could say something like, if she was here, Matt, I tend to go straight to 00:15:18.915 --> 00:15:21.165 action mode and just get into the details. 00:15:21.375 --> 00:15:24.734 Forgive me if that feels blunt, but I really want us to get into 00:15:24.734 --> 00:15:26.084 this and get you to a good place. 00:15:26.204 --> 00:15:30.584 Suddenly, she's given both self permission to do what she was going to do to inhabit 00:15:30.584 --> 00:15:34.094 that place that feels comfortable, but she's also opened a doorway for her 00:15:34.094 --> 00:15:37.875 interlocutors to feel like, oh, thank goodness, you know, she doesn't hate me. 00:15:38.165 --> 00:15:42.215 Or I understand the scaffolding around that type of communication. 00:15:42.455 --> 00:15:45.725 And you could do that say with a resting concentrating face, 00:15:45.785 --> 00:15:47.165 which some of us have, right? 00:15:47.165 --> 00:15:50.465 We have a flat affect and the other person thinks, oh no, like they 00:15:50.465 --> 00:15:51.815 must hate this idea or something. 00:15:51.995 --> 00:15:54.755 And you could say, look, I tend to have a resting concentrating face. 00:15:54.815 --> 00:15:58.475 I'm really concentrating hard and I wanna make sure I'm taking in all the details. 00:15:58.475 --> 00:16:00.695 So let me do that, and then I'm good to go. 00:16:01.030 --> 00:16:03.910 Matt Abrahams: I also like that you're signaling self-awareness, concern for 00:16:03.910 --> 00:16:08.199 the other person, which buys you a lot in terms of credibility and connection. 00:16:08.410 --> 00:16:11.800 Thinking about that preamble, it needs to be short and sweet I think, 00:16:11.829 --> 00:16:13.150 'cause you could go on too long. 00:16:13.150 --> 00:16:15.969 But I do think that it could be helpful to prepare people. 00:16:16.570 --> 00:16:20.500 I often use the analogy of, as a communicator, you're like a tour guide. 00:16:20.500 --> 00:16:23.470 Part of what a good tour guide does is always sets expectations 00:16:23.650 --> 00:16:26.980 so that the people on the tour can relax and just enjoy it. 00:16:26.980 --> 00:16:28.600 And what you're suggesting is very similar. 00:16:28.600 --> 00:16:31.900 You come in and you preview what's going to happen in the interaction. 00:16:32.140 --> 00:16:33.130 I like that idea. 00:16:33.375 --> 00:16:37.575 Have you noticed certain behaviors, physical behaviors, or way people 00:16:37.575 --> 00:16:42.015 use their voice that actually works against them in terms of demonstrating 00:16:42.015 --> 00:16:46.365 warmth, connection, presence, anything that you've seen that you might call 00:16:46.365 --> 00:16:48.165 out and maybe give advice to avoid? 00:16:48.435 --> 00:16:52.155 Kate Mason: I think the crossed arms is always one that I do see a lot, and of 00:16:52.155 --> 00:16:55.965 course it looks defensive, right, straight away, and I have people say to me, it's 00:16:55.965 --> 00:17:00.635 just comfortable, but it looks like you're bracing for impact or pushing away. 00:17:00.705 --> 00:17:01.745 That is one I noticed. 00:17:01.745 --> 00:17:05.135 Your arms can be, if you just move them down, it can signal 00:17:05.135 --> 00:17:06.454 quite a big optical shift. 00:17:06.575 --> 00:17:10.775 That's one of the ones I find is maybe the most impactful in terms 00:17:10.775 --> 00:17:13.415 of demonstrating optically openness. 00:17:13.474 --> 00:17:16.740 It is slightly performative 'cause I am saying do something different 00:17:16.740 --> 00:17:21.090 with your body, but the impact of it is so helpful and so revelatory 00:17:21.090 --> 00:17:22.170 that I think it's worth it. 00:17:22.290 --> 00:17:22.890 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:17:22.890 --> 00:17:26.700 And I appreciate the desire not to give direct performative advice because 00:17:26.700 --> 00:17:31.080 it's not about the performance, but anytime you can be open, signals a 00:17:31.080 --> 00:17:32.850 connection and a willingness to connect. 00:17:32.970 --> 00:17:36.180 Many people gesture right in front of their chest, which is a closed way. 00:17:36.180 --> 00:17:38.855 If you just gesture a little more broadly you're more open 00:17:38.855 --> 00:17:40.685 and being open is helpful. 00:17:40.835 --> 00:17:44.165 Now, I know before you got into the communication coaching that you do, 00:17:44.165 --> 00:17:47.405 and you are an expert at that, you used to do executive communication work 00:17:47.405 --> 00:17:51.485 within firms, big impactful firms that we all know and use their products of. 00:17:51.725 --> 00:17:55.534 What insights did you glean that can help all of us when it comes to defining 00:17:55.534 --> 00:17:59.735 a message or cascading a message internally or keeping it tight and clear? 00:17:59.825 --> 00:18:03.095 Give us sort of the lessons Kate learned when you were doing executive 00:18:03.095 --> 00:18:04.639 comms for really important companies. 00:18:05.315 --> 00:18:06.395 Kate Mason: Gosh, so many. 00:18:06.545 --> 00:18:10.925 I think the most surprising one maybe, because these are big machines that 00:18:10.925 --> 00:18:15.465 have a lot of spokespeople and a lot of cogs in the machine, I think one of our 00:18:15.495 --> 00:18:19.775 VPs at one of those companies used to say repetition never spoils the prayer. 00:18:19.925 --> 00:18:25.325 And I always loved that because it feels like as smart, interesting people, each 00:18:25.325 --> 00:18:27.095 time we need to reinvent the wheel. 00:18:27.245 --> 00:18:30.575 Each interview we do, or each time we're talking in front of an all hands or a 00:18:30.575 --> 00:18:35.435 town hall, we must construct this fabulous new set of metaphors or arguments. 00:18:35.645 --> 00:18:39.485 And actually all of the research, as you will know, points to the opposite. 00:18:39.485 --> 00:18:43.085 That people take many times to hear the same thing to really absorb it, 00:18:43.235 --> 00:18:47.075 many times even in different ways, or different channels, different 00:18:47.075 --> 00:18:49.085 metaphors, but really the same message. 00:18:49.340 --> 00:18:53.480 That was interesting to me because I came in thinking I need new talking points, or 00:18:53.480 --> 00:18:57.710 a whole new messaging deck, and actually it was the same deck and the same points. 00:18:57.920 --> 00:19:02.990 And really letting down your intellectual curiosity for a moment and focusing on, 00:19:02.990 --> 00:19:07.010 no, this role is actually in the purpose or in the service of education, and 00:19:07.010 --> 00:19:08.990 that comes with a degree of repetition. 00:19:09.140 --> 00:19:14.345 But I can't impart that enough with people because sometimes the chaotic 00:19:14.345 --> 00:19:18.545 messaging you see in companies is actually coming from probably well-intentioned 00:19:18.545 --> 00:19:22.955 folks wanting to tell you everything they know as distinct from deciding 00:19:22.955 --> 00:19:26.975 on a couple of key themes or ideas, and really going hard on those. 00:19:27.360 --> 00:19:30.929 Matt Abrahams: So having a clear focus, critical themes and ideas, and then being 00:19:30.929 --> 00:19:33.300 consistent and repetitive are critical. 00:19:33.540 --> 00:19:36.270 And I love the quote about repetition doesn't spoil the prayer. 00:19:36.270 --> 00:19:38.820 I'm going to leverage that in what I do. 00:19:38.909 --> 00:19:41.699 Because not only is it important for the messaging, but it's important for the 00:19:41.699 --> 00:19:45.060 messengers to understand because it can feel like I'm saying the same thing over 00:19:45.060 --> 00:19:49.300 and over again, but in fact, not everybody is hearing it over and over again. 00:19:49.300 --> 00:19:51.129 So that repetition is really important. 00:19:51.280 --> 00:19:54.430 Kate Mason: And the real skillset is to look excited about it and 00:19:54.430 --> 00:19:57.250 like it's the first time you've ever said it, every time you say it. 00:19:57.490 --> 00:19:58.960 Matt Abrahams: And there's a way to do that authentically. 00:19:58.960 --> 00:20:02.230 I don't want people to hear that advice was, it's not being disingenuous, 00:20:02.230 --> 00:20:05.230 it's reminding yourself what's important and what's the value. 00:20:05.350 --> 00:20:09.040 You know, as a teacher, I teach a lot of the same concepts repeatedly, but 00:20:09.040 --> 00:20:12.580 I am so passionate about what those concepts do for people, and it'll be 00:20:12.580 --> 00:20:15.220 interesting to see what my students think, that I bring that intensity. 00:20:15.220 --> 00:20:15.820 So you're right. 00:20:16.035 --> 00:20:18.135 It is about repetition, but really owning that. 00:20:19.785 --> 00:20:22.155 Before we end, I like to ask people three questions. 00:20:22.155 --> 00:20:24.675 One I make up just for you, and two, I've been asking everybody for as 00:20:24.675 --> 00:20:25.935 long as this show's been on the air. 00:20:25.935 --> 00:20:26.535 Are you up for that? 00:20:26.625 --> 00:20:27.195 Kate Mason: I'd love to. 00:20:27.285 --> 00:20:29.835 Matt Abrahams: Well, you know I love very practical, tactical tools and 00:20:29.835 --> 00:20:32.715 you've been traveling all around in support of your new book, providing 00:20:32.715 --> 00:20:34.605 practical, tactical tools for people. 00:20:34.935 --> 00:20:38.355 Can you share one that you found resonates really well with people? 00:20:38.565 --> 00:20:40.995 Kate Mason: I think one that's really easy to implement now 00:20:40.995 --> 00:20:43.485 is many of us over prepare. 00:20:43.754 --> 00:20:45.825 Maybe that's got us to where we are, right? 00:20:45.825 --> 00:20:47.445 Maybe that's how we started our career. 00:20:47.475 --> 00:20:51.645 But I see a real difference between adequate preparation and over preparation. 00:20:51.840 --> 00:20:56.580 The dangers of that are so many because we get mired to the thing we've done, 00:20:56.850 --> 00:21:00.780 and we are not as creative or agile in an interaction as we otherwise could be. 00:21:00.780 --> 00:21:05.320 So my challenge could be, could you do five percent less, just five percent 00:21:05.340 --> 00:21:10.140 less on a presentation or a meeting prep for yourself and maybe ratchet down 00:21:10.140 --> 00:21:12.690 those expectations and see how you go. 00:21:12.690 --> 00:21:15.565 I'd be very surprised if you weren't gonna keep ratcheting it down. 00:21:16.405 --> 00:21:19.825 There's a lot of muscle memory there that we can rely on, and actually 00:21:19.825 --> 00:21:24.415 often we do much better work when we are slightly even under-prepared, just 00:21:24.415 --> 00:21:26.845 slightly than five percent over-prepared. 00:21:27.024 --> 00:21:29.935 Matt Abrahams: There's a wonderful saying in improvisation, good enough is great. 00:21:30.024 --> 00:21:35.715 When you give yourself permission to be more present, not over rehearsed, there's 00:21:35.715 --> 00:21:37.935 an aliveness and a focus that comes. 00:21:37.935 --> 00:21:39.375 I really appreciate that idea. 00:21:39.375 --> 00:21:43.365 Preparation is key, but not necessarily over preparation. 00:21:43.635 --> 00:21:47.025 Question number two, who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:21:47.325 --> 00:21:48.795 Kate Mason: I love Michelle Obama. 00:21:48.885 --> 00:21:52.965 I think she just, I don't know her personally, but it feels to me at least, 00:21:52.965 --> 00:21:57.885 that she is who she is and she manages to convey so many different forms 00:21:57.885 --> 00:22:02.879 of authority, warmth, intelligence, community building and rapport. 00:22:03.120 --> 00:22:08.189 I think she's an exemplar of someone who can very easily ratchet up and down 00:22:08.189 --> 00:22:12.810 to different audiences, but maintain a very solid sense of who she is. 00:22:12.899 --> 00:22:14.129 I find that very admirable. 00:22:14.550 --> 00:22:18.810 Matt Abrahams: There is a connective feeling that you get when she speaks. 00:22:18.810 --> 00:22:19.804 You feel like you know her. 00:22:20.415 --> 00:22:24.165 Regardless of if you support her politics or not, you definitely feel that she's 00:22:24.165 --> 00:22:25.995 there in the moment speaking with you. 00:22:26.295 --> 00:22:27.075 Final question. 00:22:27.435 --> 00:22:31.965 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:22:32.415 --> 00:22:36.855 Kate Mason: I think for me, they are rapport building as number one. 00:22:37.125 --> 00:22:41.655 Great listening as number two, and humility as number three. 00:22:41.955 --> 00:22:45.855 And humility, I mean, the ability to see maybe where you might be wrong and 00:22:45.855 --> 00:22:47.925 change and course correct accordingly. 00:22:48.330 --> 00:22:51.870 I think those three things when in place can be a really beautiful 00:22:51.870 --> 00:22:56.700 mixture that gives creativity and agility in the moment, but also some 00:22:56.700 --> 00:22:58.860 solidity to yourself and who you are. 00:22:59.040 --> 00:23:00.990 Matt Abrahams: And I see how they feed into each other, 00:23:00.990 --> 00:23:02.730 that listening builds rapport. 00:23:02.730 --> 00:23:04.980 Humility continues a conversation going. 00:23:05.375 --> 00:23:07.445 Do you have one quick tip for building rapport? 00:23:07.445 --> 00:23:09.875 Is there something that you like to do to help connect? 00:23:10.265 --> 00:23:12.965 Kate Mason: When I'm building rapport, I usually look for, is there a 00:23:12.965 --> 00:23:15.365 personal anecdote we can bond over? 00:23:15.365 --> 00:23:19.055 Or maybe even make a joke with someone, something that gets them out of any 00:23:19.055 --> 00:23:22.625 performative state they might feel that they're in and deescalate together. 00:23:22.775 --> 00:23:25.985 So we can both be a little bit more regulated for the conversation ahead. 00:23:26.105 --> 00:23:29.885 Matt Abrahams: So it's a way of connecting and taking some of the pressure off. 00:23:30.225 --> 00:23:31.455 Kate, this has been fantastic. 00:23:31.455 --> 00:23:33.195 I knew we were gonna have a great conversation. 00:23:33.195 --> 00:23:35.235 We always have a great time when we get together. 00:23:35.235 --> 00:23:38.865 Thank you for sharing ways that we can get out of that performative 00:23:38.865 --> 00:23:43.695 state and be more real and give ourselves permission to be who we are. 00:23:43.845 --> 00:23:46.155 I wish you well with your new book, Powerfully Likable, 00:23:46.185 --> 00:23:47.895 and thank you for joining us. 00:23:48.105 --> 00:23:49.335 Kate Mason: Thank you so much for having me, Matt. 00:23:49.335 --> 00:23:49.935 It was a pleasure. 00:23:52.575 --> 00:23:54.435 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:23:54.435 --> 00:23:56.535 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:23:56.774 --> 00:24:00.225 To learn more about communication, status and power, listen to 00:24:00.225 --> 00:24:02.554 episode 176 with Alison Fragale. 00:24:02.865 --> 00:24:07.790 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:24:08.030 --> 00:24:09.260 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:24:09.810 --> 00:24:11.850 With thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:24:12.060 --> 00:24:15.210 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:24:15.360 --> 00:24:17.250 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:24:17.490 --> 00:24:20.580 Also follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:24:20.970 --> 00:24:24.870 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:24:24.870 --> 00:24:26.970 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:24:27.180 --> 00:24:30.480 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:24:30.540 --> 00:24:36.420 AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings, and much more, at fastersmarter.io/premium.