Carried Far Far Away Episode 4: Sheba === [00:00:00] Katie Marinello: Hello and welcome back to Carried Far Far Away, a podcast project where we watch and read everything that Carrie Fisher managed to do during her short life and storied career. My name is Katie. Claire Fisher: And I'm Claire. Katie Marinello: And this week we watched Claire Fisher: Come back, Little Sheba, the 1977 televised play version. Not to be confused with the 1950 play or the 1952 movie adaptation of the play. Katie Marinello: Yeah, can we talk about the fact that the movie was made two years after the play first premiered? We are sitting here the weekend that Wicked came out. A solid twenty one years Katie Marinello: after it premiered on Broadway. Man, they used to do this a lot quicker, Claire Fisher: Yeah, I guess. I mean, they've done some things a little quicker. Like the movie version of the play Proof was just two years after the play, I think. Katie Marinello: Ah, yes. Everybody remembers both that play and that movie fondly. Yeah. Claire Fisher: and a movie about math. I had Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: you remember Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: the large, [00:01:00] enthusiastic, Benedictine monk who taught us math. Claire Fisher: He really loved that movie, so I know that very well. Katie Marinello: Yep. Claire Fisher: made me read the play. Katie Marinello: Actually That is weird. But, for you, wonderful. Claire Fisher: Back Little Sheba, specifically the version that was produced for television in 1977. It was part of Laurence Olivier Presents. I know you're going to talk more about Laurence Olivier in a minute, but that was an anthology series of Lawrence Olivier and his friends putting on plays that would be filmed and then aired on TV. So, in the United States, this aired December 31st, 1977. So that brings us to the times. I'm so glad you asked. Well Saturday Night Fever was in theaters. It was released on December 16th. It [00:02:00] was tearing up the box office. The unincorporated town of Vulcan, West Virginia had finally secured government aid to repair their highway bridge after they appealed to the Soviet embassy for foreign aid to rebuild the bridge, which is one of those stories that's so Cold War. Katie Marinello: Wow. Claire Fisher: On December 27th, this I was interested to learn, Star Wars debuted in the UK December 27th. So it had come Katie Marinello: Oh, interesting. Claire Fisher: countries seven months earlier, but it only premiered that week. Katie Marinello: Was in two movies. Kind of. I mean, they weren't in theaters because this is a TV movie, but kind of back to back in the UK. Claire Fisher: Well, it was a televised play, even, so. But in the U. S., at least, they heavily advertised Comeback Little Sheba as starring Carrie Fisher of Star Wars, because it had been in theaters for seven months. It was Claire Fisher: the thing. So, you know, they tried to get an audience for the NBC version of this play by trading on her recent stardom. Katie Marinello: I looked for this and I couldn't find [00:03:00] it. Did you find When this would have been filmed? Like, did she do it after Star Wars? Did she do it before? Claire Fisher: just going by what I was able to find out about Laurence Olivier Presents, she was probably filming, this play, after Star Wars had been filmed, but before it premiered. Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: That's my best guess given what I know about the production timeline. And then the same day that this aired in the United States, something very interesting happened. Claire Fisher: The president and Mrs. Carter celebrated New Year's as guests of the Shah of Iran Katie Marinello: Oh, Claire Fisher: that a US president made to Iran from that day to this, but I looked this up because I was curious, do you know when the Iranian revolution actually started? Katie Marinello: Sometime in the 70s, Claire Fisher: January 7, 1978, literally Katie Marinello: Oh, oh my god, a week later! Claire Fisher: So, that was the last New Year's that any Shah of Iran ever got to celebrate, and President Jimmy Carter and Mrs. Carter, rest her soul, [00:04:00] were there to celebrate it, and one week later, the Shah was Katie Marinello: He was overturned. Wow. Yeah, that is crazy. Claire Fisher: that all happened on the Katie Marinello: he knew? I mean, were they there because there was unrest, do you think? Claire Fisher: Well famously, U. S. intelligence didn't think there was any unrest it started with like street protests and then, you know the CIA famously downplayed it and thought it was, oh, you know, it's just, it's just some protest movement, he'll find a way to appease them. Claire Fisher: And then, you know, next thing you know, they're storming our embassy, Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Katie Marinello: Nobody expects, nobody expects the Iranian coup. Claire Fisher: yeah, right? Of course, it's interesting because, you know, this week there have been some protests in Iran surrounding the role of the morality police, so I was thinking like, wow, okay, trying to remember the late 70s is like trying to remember a different world, Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. They say, what, history doesn't repeat itself, but it rhymes. Okay, cool. So, let's talk a little bit about [00:05:00] Comeback Little Sheba. So, as you said, this was a play and this, this movie very much reads as a play, right? It is a televised play, even though , it's not like it's just focused on a stage, right? Claire Fisher: Right. It's a, Katie Marinello: it's very much a play, very much a play. Yeah, cause sometimes when they do a televised play, it is like just filming the stage. This one was clearly designed for a movie, but clearly a play. Katie Marinello: And I had kind of forgotten that it was a TV movie until I started watching it and I was like, Oh yeah. Okay. So the play premiered at the Westport country playhouse. And then the first Broadway production was at the Booth theater. February 15th, 1950, 190 performances. Very nice. Lola was played by Shirley Booth, who then played her again in the 1952 movie. In his review of the 1984 off Broadway revival. William A. Henry III, wrote in [00:06:00] Time, quote, Like all of Inge's best plays, Sheba is slight of plot, but musky with atmosphere. Middle age is portrayed as a time of aching sexual frustration, made more acute by the close at hand vision of youth. Katie Marinello: Inge did not transform his characters, they end where they began, but he understood them. In their interplay was genuine life, often blunted, but ever resilient. William Inge, mid 20th century playwright died in 1973. There was a time that he was spoken of in the same cohort as Tennessee Williams and Arthur Miller, great American playwrights. Katie Marinello: But his plays have. according to this one review I read in the New York Times, possibly aged less well because of the kind of small story and what they called the paint by numbers dramaturgy, as well as the Freudian take on repressed American [00:07:00] sexuality. Claire Fisher: Beginning to think that there's a certain elitism in that, because thought a perfectly relatable story. But we'll get Katie Marinello: Yeah. No, that's fair. That's fair. So to be fair, Ben Brantley of the New York Times did actually really like this production. There was the 2008 revival. Claire Fisher: it's been revived recently on Broadway. Okay. Katie Marinello: yeah. And guess who played Lola in that one? Claire Fisher: I don't know. Katie Marinello: It's S. Apatha, Mack Merkerson, Claire Fisher: Oh, Esopatha Merkerson! From Law and Order. Katie Marinello: from Law and Order. Katie Marinello: Yeah. So very interesting. And Brantley notes that as understated as her role in Law and Order is, she plays it very understated as opposed to both the 1952 version from what I've read and the 1977 version, which we've seen. Lots of it's, it's very active, right? Like Lola is very active and kind of manic and [00:08:00] moving around a lot. Claire Fisher: Yeah. You know, it's interesting. I had never heard of this play before. I hadn't heard of the movie, I hadn't heard of the play, it was revived in 2008. I do not remember hearing Katie Marinello: I mean, I guess I was in Connecticut, but still we were nearby. Claire Fisher: went to the theater a lot in the aughts, you and I. Katie Marinello: Right, right. But we didn't go to, we went to fewer straight plays. And for those who don't know, that means a play that's not a musical. Doesn't mean anything about the Claire Fisher: My recollection is that we were reading a lot of theatrical reviews in those days, though, because we still got a paper at the house when you could still get a paper, and I still got Entertainment Weekly when it came out weekly. As a magazine, so I'm just surprised I had never heard of this play, given that it was being done when I was around, Claire Fisher: and now I've experienced it, so thank you to the cast and crew of Laurence Olivier Presents from 1977, Katie Marinello: had you heard of these other movies that were part of that same series? I mean, the other plays, rather? Cat on a Hut and Roof, obviously, we've heard of. I've never seen it, but we've [00:09:00] heard of it. The other ones were The Collection, Saturday, Sunday, Monday, and Hindlewakes. Claire Fisher: no, mean, obviously, I've heard of Laurence Olivier, and I Katie Marinello: Right, of course. Claire Fisher: I know he did a lot of theater, and he did a lot of televised theater, and he did a lot of everything. He was a man who did a lot Katie Marinello: He was a man of a lot of things. So this was supposed to be an anthology series of like the best of American theater. So, hey! Claire Fisher: Tennessee Williams. Katie Marinello: Okay, so Williams is in there, but there's no Miller, right? Claire Fisher: I just told you I haven't heard of any of these. Katie Marinello: Okay, so do you want to talk about actors that are not Carrie Fisher? Claire Fisher: And I mean, we already got started with Laurence Olivier, God Katie Marinello: Olivier, let's go there. So, Laurence Olivier obviously, a long, long career. This is not what I thought he looked like. Katie Marinello: I don't know what I was imagining. Okay. But he actually, he was quite handsome. Claire Fisher: Up with Orson Welles? I get Katie Marinello: yes, I did. How did you know that? How did you know that? Claire Fisher: I get him mixed up with [00:10:00] Orson Welles sometimes. Katie Marinello: very much did. Katie Marinello: Okay, so he and his contemporaries, Ralph Richardson and John Gielgud, made up a trio of male actors who dominated the British stage in the mid 20th century. It said that Lawrence Oli could speak William Shakespeare's lines as naturally as if he were actually thinking them. Katie Marinello: And then in 1931 he was offered a two film deal at a thousand dollars a week. I'd be cool with a thousand dollars a week today, but in 1931, that was $20,000 a week . I know. Katie Marinello: And after that, he ended up doing. Over 50 cinema roles, including Sleuth, 1972, Rebecca in 1940, Marathon Man, 1976, The Boys from Brazil, 1978. Katie Marinello: I looked up the plots to all of those. He does a lot of either like psychological [00:11:00] thrillers or Nazi hunting, lots of Nazi Claire Fisher: Well, I just saw him last night in 1960's Spartacus. Yeah which I happen to be watching with some friends and obviously today remembered mainly for the meme, I'm Spartacus, right? But the main antagonist of Spartacus is Lawrence Olivier and he is nude or semi nude for large sections of it. Katie Marinello: Oh, well, okay. And now that I know he's not Orson Welles, that sounds quite appealing. Claire Fisher: I had seen Spartacus, like, 20 years ago with Dad, and famously, when it was re released in 91, they got to put back in all of the scenes that had been cut for being too homoerotic from the 1960 version but they had lost the audio for some of them, and Laurence Olivier had died, so they actually had to have the too homoerotic bit. Claire Fisher: Dialogue dubbed back in by an impersonator his widow apparently remembered that Sir Anthony Hopkins could Laurence Olivier's voice very well. So when [00:12:00] I first saw Spartacus, I was such an innocent that I was like, wait, what's wrong with this scene? It's just a slave giving his master a bath. Claire Fisher: That's a totally normal Roman thing. And our father bless his heart, had to explain the double entendre in the in the dialogue. And then this time that I was watching it, I was like, wait, this is a gladiator Everybody spends much of the movie scantily clad and fighting one another. They thought the bath was the homoerotic part. Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Yeah. Claire Fisher: anyway Laurence Olivier, wonderful career. Katie Marinello: In his career, he had considerable success in television as well including this. Mm hmm. And then just a little six degrees of separation to our last episode, Alec Guinness wrote about an incident at the Old Vic when he and Olivier were hanging out in the basement and he asked, Oh, where does this tunnel go? Katie Marinello: And Olivier's like, I don't know, but let's just see what happens. So they went, they thought it would like come up on the street and in the tunnel. [00:13:00] In reality, it went under the Thames and they were, they were rescued after several hours of fruitless navigation of the dark, damp corridor. Claire Fisher: I wonder who came to rescue them. It's like, hey, can Katie Marinello: know. Claire Fisher: can you go see where, where Guinness and Olivier went? Katie Marinello: Yeah, like, how did they even call for help? Guinness remarked that Olivier's willingness to plunge into the dark and unknown was characteristic of the type of person and actor he was, and Guinness lamented that he did not take enough chances. So that was, I mean, that's sweet. Claire Fisher: Yeah, I mean, Katie Marinello: no idea where he wrote this. Katie Marinello: This was on the, in the trivia on IMDB. But I would love to find more of that story. Claire Fisher: Well, Lawrence Olivia, I mean, he, I was looking at his wiki page after seeing him in Spartacus. He's, great in Spartacus, by the way. I was looking at his wiki page and like, it said that when he was 10 years old, he played Brutus in a production of Julius Caesar at his like grade school and at Katie Marinello: Oh, wow. Claire Fisher: people were saying he's already a great Shakespearean actor, Katie Marinello: Yeah, that's crazy. But, yeah, that's great. Clearly he had a [00:14:00] knack for Claire Fisher: yeah, now by the time he made this anthology series, he was quite ill, I understand, from a degenerative muscle disease and was struggling a lot more because he couldn't get insured for long productions, which is why he was doing more TV stuff at this point in his Katie Marinello: That makes sense. Katie Marinello: Okay, so Lola is played by Joanne Woodward. She's an American actress. She's still alive, but retired. Her last acting credit is in 2013. As an actress, she's best known for her performance in The Three Faces of Eve, 1957 which is about a woman with a dissociative identity disorder, and that earned her an Academy Award for Best Actress and a Golden Globe Award for Best Actress. Katie Marinello: Most of her roles were noted as being complex female roles. You know how much I love complex female roles. I have a teddy bear named Complex Female Character. And then, obviously, personally, she's known for being married to actor Paul Newman for 50 years. And they collaborated quite a bit on films that he directed or [00:15:00] produced or co starred in. Katie Marinello: This is cool. I just liked it. In 1990, she earned a bachelor's degree from Sarah Lawrence College at the age of 60. She and her daughter graduated the same day. Katie Marinello: Nicholas Campbell, who played Turk, he's a Canadian actor, he's still alive. He's best known for being a character called Da Vinci on a show called Da Vinci's Inquest and the spinoff of that show, which was called Da Vinci's Town Hall, I believe. Katie Marinello: It's about a Vancouver cop turned coroner searches for the truth and justice with the help of his friends. It's law and order. Claire Fisher: never heard of this. Katie Marinello: Another and he's been in several movies. One that I'd heard of was Cinderella Man A Bridge Too Far, which is about war and The Dead Zone. He's a four time Gemini Award winner, a three time Genie Award nominee, and a Canadian [00:16:00] Screen Award nominee. Katie Marinello: I looked up Gemini and Canadian Screen Awards, and they're basically the Canadian version of the Emmys and the Oscars. So yeah, he's had quite a bit of success has worked pretty consistently. Patrice Collier played Mrs. Kaufman. She's a British actress. So six years before this, she played Grandma, the grandma in Fiddler on the Roof, you know, the one that comes in the dream I assume and I'm like dang she's not that old Claire Fisher: No, she's not. But you know how it is in theater. Katie Marinello: Yeah, so well that was the movie Fiddler on the Roof she's also known for The French Lieutenant's Woman, which was a 1981 film, and Every Home Should Have One, which was a 1970 film. And I just had to stop there because the, the description of that movie was Teddy, working at an advertising agency, has to come up with a campaign for frozen porridge. Katie Marinello: And I just don't think we make scripts like that anymore. [00:17:00] Suspect nothing blows up over the course of that movie. Claire Fisher: Well, nothing blows up in Spartacus either. Or in this one. Katie Marinello: Fun fact. She portrayed Elizabeth I several times over the course of her career, including the 1978 TV series Will Shakespeare. Katie Marinello: And then Jay Benedict, who played Bruce. He's an American actor who actually spent most of his life in the UK, and was often cast as the American in British TV. He's best known for his television role as Doug Hamilton in the soap opera Emmerdale. Katie Marinello: He did 20 episodes in 1997, but the show has been on since 1979 and is still going, so that's like a drop in the bucket. He also played Russ Jordan, Newt's father, in the special extended edition of the film Aliens. So the second Alien Claire Fisher: so I've seen him. Okay, yeah. I've seen the extended edition of Aliens. He gets one scene and dies, but Katie Marinello: Yes. Claire Fisher: that's pretty much how it goes when you're up against the aliens.[00:18:00] Katie Marinello: Right. And then then he also played against Bill Wilson, the co founder of Alcoholics Anonymous in a touring production of One Day at a Time, which I just learned was a play in addition to several sitcoms over the years. Katie Marinello: And he, worked fairly consistently until 2017. He died in 2020. And that is pretty much it because there's like, as you said earlier, 10 characters in this whole play and most of them are, pretty much bit parts. So Claire Fisher: So it should be pretty easy to summarize then. Shall I give this a shot? Katie Marinello: go for it. 54 seconds. Claire Fisher: In the 1940s, Come Back Little Sheba follows Dr. and Mrs. Delaney, an unhappily married couple. The husband is a recovering alcoholic, and the wife, Lola, is deeply depressed and lonely following the quote unquote disappearance of their pet dog, Little Sheba, whom she continues to call for even though it's obviously not coming home. Claire Fisher: It's revealed that the Delaney's were forced to get married after she got pregnant, and the baby died when he tried to deliver it at home. They rent their dining room to a college student, Marie, who is dating her classmate, Turk, but engaged to a more reliable guy, Bruce. Mrs. Delaney fetishizes the young lovers, but [00:19:00] Doc falls off the wagon when he catches Marie and Turk having premarital sex. Claire Fisher: On a bender, he tries to kill his wife Lola, and his sponsors drag him off to a psych ward. Lola calls her parents for help leaving her dangerous husband, but her father refuses to let her come home. After a time skip, it's revealed that Marie and Bruce have married and Doc is being released from the hospital. Claire Fisher: Despite being terrified of him, Lola finds herself welcoming him home. Katie Marinello: beautiful. Claire Fisher: So this is in many ways a story about the world that the United States is backsliding into. Katie Marinello: Oh boy. That is a deep thesis statement. Let's explore that. My thought was this embodies two of my least favorite, most favorite, most slash least favorite genres, which is unhappy white people. Which I feel like most of the straight plays we've seen fall into that category and then the consequences of purity culture, which, I [00:20:00] always say that I came to feminism through my English degree, right? Katie Marinello: Because I was like, damn, the amount of time we spent writing about women's virginity, it's just exhausting. Claire Fisher: Yeah. This is a movie set in the 1940s and the couple is middle aged. So it is implied their marriage happened sometime in the 1920s, late 20s, right? Katie Marinello: He said that she was the It Girl of 1929. Claire Fisher: so it was 1929. So you gotta think, Birth control in the form of, barrier devices existed, but could not be purchased unless you were married. And no such thing as legal abortion in any state in the United States. No Medicaid, no Medicare, no Social Security, no welfare, right? Claire Fisher: So if you got a woman pregnant, you had to marry and support her, their unhappy marriage had its roots in that. Katie Marinello: , I mean, the reaction of her parents is she said, Oh, we eloped and I never made it back home to visit. And I was like, Hmm, that's interesting. Cause they had money at one point. Obviously at the end, when she makes a phone call home, it becomes [00:21:00] very clear that her father has not spoken to her since she got pregnant and will not see her. Katie Marinello: And that is horrifying, truly horrifying. Claire Fisher: and she can't leave her husband unless her father forgives her and he Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: will happen. Claire Fisher: So. The two delaney's, you know, Lawrence Olivier and, and Mrs. Delaney is played by Joanne Woodward. They are contrasted with a younger generation . Claire Fisher: Carrie Fisher's character is a college girl in the early forties. She's our grandma, Rita Marine, who graduated St. Elizabeth's in 1944. Katie Marinello: But she is not our Grandma Marinello, let's be clear on that. Because Grandma would never. I was surprised that it took place in the 40s. I mean, it was written in the 50s. Early 50s. I guess because in modern times when you write about the 40s, it's not really seen as like a sexually liberated time. Claire Fisher: This is during the war, a lot of men were away. Women on the home front were [00:22:00] experimenting, they had a boyfriend who was overseas, or in this case, he just lives in Cincinnati, and meanwhile, they saw other guys back home because the concept of exclusive dating before you were engaged had not yet been popularized, Katie Marinello: So that was actually discouraged because if you were dating steadily, you might have sex, right? So it's actually encouraged more to go out with a bunch of different people so that you wouldn't end up in compromising situations. But in this case, she's just sleeping with both of Claire Fisher: Yeah, so Actually, we don't know, right? Katie Marinello: We actually don't know if she's sleeping with, Claire Fisher: Bruce. It's implied, though, because she goes out with him, and Lola doesn't expect her home. Claire Fisher: He's in town, he has a hotel room for the night, so it's obvious that they're So in other words Marie is playing the field, and she's happy. Katie Marinello: Playing the field and getting her education. Two things that are kind of,, groundbreaking for, for women, right? Claire Fisher: so Lola Delaney is in love with Marie. Like Marie [00:23:00] represents what Mrs. Delaney couldn't do 20 years earlier, right? And I mean, there's some very telling moments like when so Marie's an art student and her boyfriend is posing for a sketch. Marie mentions that the women, the female models pose naked, but the male models pose draped. Claire Fisher: And Mrs. Delaney says, well, if it's all right for a woman, why not for a man? Katie Marinello: Yeah, she says it several times and I actually don't know the answer. Marie says, oh, men are more proper. Claire Fisher: Yeah, they have to Katie Marinello: And I'm like, that's really, I was like, that's really interesting, because I feel like it would be the other way around, but, I don't know. I don't know if she's going to a girl's college. Katie Marinello: Do we know? Claire Fisher: It must be coed Katie Marinello: because Claire Fisher: in a class with Turk. Katie Marinello: right. She met him in art class and well, he was posing, but he's an athlete at her college. Right. And they're going, they're studying together for biology or whatever. Claire Fisher: So I think that Lola is kind of obsessed with Marie's, freedom. Doc is projecting his trauma over the way he ended up forced to marry Lola [00:24:00] onto Marie. Claire Fisher: It's kind of a self loathing thing, but it's kind of a hating his wife thing and it gets very complicated. Katie Marinello: It's straight up misogyny. I mean, yes, it has to do with him, but he's got her on a pedestal, right? And to some degree, Marie has him on a pedestal. She keeps saying how nice he is. Oh, you're so nice to your wife. You're so nice to me. And I, it's not clear to me how long she's been living there. Claire Fisher: It can't have been too long because he's only been sober a year Katie Marinello: a year, yeah. Claire Fisher: an alcoholic Katie Marinello: Yes, as far as we can tell. Claire Fisher: because she doesn't realize that he used to actually practice as an MD, but has now become a chiropractor after losing his reputation because he drank Katie Marinello: Okay, so that's what I thought, too. All the synopses I read said that he became a chiropractor because he had to drop out of med school when he got her pregnant. Claire Fisher: Well, but he says to Marie that he practiced Katie Marinello: practice. Claire Fisher: Maybe in the 52 movie, they changed something, but yeah, in this version, [00:25:00] he was a respected doctor and then he Katie Marinello: And then he got sick, yeah. That's what I thought, yes, he drank himself out of a career. He's a chiropractor. Which God bless chiropractors. Nope. No complaints here, but I can see that it's not seen as, as respectable. Claire Fisher: Yeah. So the, the tension. In this home. Katie Marinello: is palpable Claire Fisher: absolutely. And I mean, it comes down to the older folks are projecting onto the younger folks, all of their hopes and all of their unhappiness. And Lola is so lonely she's trauma dumping on the mailman, and milkman, yeah. She's trying to encourage the Marie Turk relationship. Claire Fisher: She's saying like, Oh, you know, you can have the parlor to yourselves today, is giving them some space, even though she knows there's a boyfriend in Cincinnati who's coming to visit soon and, and she gets excited when he's going to visit because she, she like steams open the telegram envelope and finds out what day he's coming and then cleans the [00:26:00] whole house and cooks a whole dinner, right? Katie Marinello: And doesn't give the telegram to Marie until the next day. Claire Fisher: Right. Katie Marinello: So creepy. Claire Fisher: she's obviously, I think a little bit. proud of Marie but also a little bit jealous of the choices Marie has. Because Marie's getting an education, Marie can choose between these two men. And she got forced early. She mentions that she met her husband, who's much older than she is, when he was at her high school homecoming dance. Claire Fisher: He was somebody else's date and then she sprained her ankle. Claire Fisher: And then he treated her and then they slept together. So it's like a very Katie Marinello: Well, okay, but I do, I do wonder about this though, because he treated her and he kept having her come back because he liked her. And then she was going out with all these other guys and he said, that he didn't want her going out with any other guys and he wanted to go study. But he also, she also says at some point that they were dating a full year before he kissed her. Katie Marinello: So it's not like they slept together in the doctor's office. Like they were [00:27:00] courting or whatever. Probably for quite some time. So I I'm curious about that. I mean, it was 1929, probably not the best time to get married. I know that our older relatives who were dating in the depression and, during the war. Katie Marinello: waited longer to get married than others which we're equating marriage with sex right now, but so, so would they have, right? Claire Fisher: It's subtextual, mostly, but at one point she does insist on reminding him that the baby was definitely his. So again, the idea that you didn't go steady with one person, you Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: people, and so she at least thinks he might have the suspicion that if she ended up sleeping with him, she might have been sleeping with the others, too. Katie Marinello: Mm. Right Claire Fisher: because he makes a big deal when he's drunk later. He says, Oh, I had to get married after one time. It's just a desperately sad situation. They even talk about how when she was in labor, he couldn't take her to the hospital because, you couldn't take an unmarried mother to the hospital. Claire Fisher: And like, then Katie Marinello: Yeah, that was weird because wouldn't they have been married by [00:28:00] then? Claire Fisher: I think they got married after he finally had to take her to the hospital, have a hysterectomy. Katie Marinello: Oh, Claire Fisher: Is the implication because like she then says, and then I could never have another baby Katie Marinello: right. Claire Fisher: first one died in a home birth that he tried to deliver himself. I mean, he was a medical student, but still, you know, it's just obvious that the lack of reproductive rights, lack of women's healthcare, lack Katie Marinello: Mm Claire Fisher: Freedom. Right. Katie Marinello: Just the oppressiveness of not being able to tell anyone you're pregnant. I mean, like, jeez, Louise, if that's not a time when you need your mother or you need community, you know, Claire Fisher: So Katie Marinello: and they move out, right. They move away from her community. Her, I guess he must've transferred schools, right. Katie Marinello: Cause wasn't he going to school near where she was? I don't know. The timeline is confusing to me. Claire Fisher: well, it's not told with flashbacks. These are all just flashes in conversation that Katie Marinello: Right. Right. And the way they talk, we should talk about that. So she's very like, she can't stop [00:29:00] talking. It's very cringy, like secondhand embarrassment. Right. Like just talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, talk to everyone she sees. And he is very like one word answers. He calls her baby or honey, like the whole time. Claire Fisher: you don't even find out her name is Lola until his sponsor from AA says her Katie Marinello: yeah. Yeah. He calls her baby the whole time. At first, I, because I had read the very quick synopsis, which is just an emotionally distant, recovering alcoholic and his dowdy wife, which screw you, people who write, you know face a dilemma when an attractive young border moves in, whatever. Katie Marinello: So I, at first I was like, I don't know that I would have called him emotionally distant, but obviously over the course, but like in the first scene, he makes himself breakfast. She comes down. Yes, baby. Yes, baby. Yes, baby. I'm like, [00:30:00] interesting. Claire Fisher: like, takes her teddy bear out of her arms and then smooths the quilt over her when he wakes up in the morning. He makes her breakfast, right? And Marie is saying, yeah, he's so sweet to her. And he's being very patient. She's been dreaming of their dead dog. Their lost dead dog. And Katie Marinello: Oh yeah. We should probably talk about that. Yeah. Claire Fisher: But Mrs. Delaney, periodically will walk out on the porch and call, Sheba, come back little Sheba. And this dog's not coming home. This dog is dead, right? Katie Marinello: Yeah. It's the Godot of the movie. Going back to the summary, I thought from that summary that like there was going to be some kind of Dr. Delaney wanted to sleep the Katie Marinello: of course. Yeah. That's what it sounds like. Claire Fisher: not Katie Marinello: Literally the Claire Fisher: It's literally that having her there reminds him of what his wife used to be like, and he's worried that what happened with him and his wife will happen with Marie and her boyfriends, that they'll be forced into a bad marriage, right? Katie Marinello: And, you know, she says you've been like a mother and father to me, and he takes on a very paternalistic role [00:31:00] in, chaperoning her. The only way he can think that she would be amorous, even like kissing Turk is if he forced her. Claire Fisher: Yeah, because Katie Marinello: Right? Oh, she must, he must force her to kiss him. What? Like, what? Claire Fisher: When we see Marie and Turk alone together, and she's wearing what was a pretty fashion forward outfit for the 40s, tight purple capri pants, right? Turk is trying to grope her, to touch her, and she's saying like, no, I just want to study, or oh, let's just sit and talk, and he says, who the hell are you saving it for? Claire Fisher: She actually then says, no, no, no, stay. And he says, if I'd walked out of here without giving you a good loving up, you'd have been sore as hell. It obviously is, she is enjoying the sexual relationship they have and the audience knows she's been sneaking him out the window of her bedroom in the morning. Claire Fisher: So they obviously Katie Marinello: back, picks her up to go to the library, Claire Fisher: but she always insists on waiting until after the Delanys go to sleep, so she's obviously enjoying this sexual relationship but she's playing the game that you had to play in the 40s of claiming that, it's [00:32:00] not that way. Things come to a head. I'm sorry, we're making a meal of this plot. Claire Fisher: It's not that long of a plot, but Katie Marinello: No. It's very late on plot. Very heavy on atmosphere. Claire Fisher: the climax comes because Doc sees Turk sneaking out one morning and he realizes what's going on and he falls off the wagon, so his wife is singing his praises to Marie, saying like, oh, Doc Delaney treats women like beautiful little angels, and meanwhile he Having seen her fall off this pedestal is now falling off the wagon, Katie Marinello: yeah, beautiful little angels. Imaginary pure creatures, right? Like Claire Fisher: make it home for dinner and Mrs. Delaney hosts Bruce and Marie for dinner. And she finds out that the bottle of liquor is missing, the one they keep for guests. And she's frantically calling Doc's sponsor from the hallway, and she's frantically clawing around looking for him, and, you know. Claire Fisher: Marie is being polite and trying to put a brave face on. Bruce is complaining about everything. I actually didn't like Bruce. He's barely in this movie, but I [00:33:00] immediately was like, who is this? Who's Katie Marinello: Sir almost never appearing in this film, Claire Fisher: Yeah. So let's talk about this. He comes home after going on a bender Claire Fisher: and attacks her with a hatchet. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: It is, it is, scary. And I Katie Marinello: The hat Claire Fisher: if you know anything about how alcohol can affect people and how domestic violence happens. I mean, earlier he was smoothing the quilt and tucking in her teddy bear and making her breakfast and now he's trying to kill her. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: he's actually Katie Marinello: hat The hatchet is scary. But the true pain, I feel, is It's what he says, right? I was forced to marry you. Marie's a slut. You're a slut. Oh, you use the China that was owned by my mother. Katie Marinello: My mother's China wasn't sluts like you. Katie Marinello: wasn't for sluts like you. Oh, you couldn't clean until there was a boy coming or whatever, you know? And he breaks the China. Claire Fisher: yeah. He comes after her with a hatchet. We cannot [00:34:00] undermine that. Katie Marinello: No, we can't. And he tries to choke Claire Fisher: Yeah, he chokes her. Katie Marinello: he really, he really, I mean, there's no, there's no way around it, but I think the psychological abuse was probably, it hit me harder. I, I believe it's not a hatchet in the play or in the first movie. But it doesn't Claire Fisher: Yeah, I mean, and Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: out. Which is like, now today is recognized as a sign that an abuser will kill. Katie Marinello: Will kill you, yeah. Claire Fisher: a murder. A family annihilation murder, right? So, the neighbor, Mrs. Kaufman, who we briefly mentioned earlier, she comes out and tries to administer first aid, then the sponsor, and they don't explain, is he another friend from AA or just a neighbor, but they come, they get the hatchet, they get Doc, but the only place they can take him is back inside his own house. Claire Fisher: which is where the neighbor is trying to revive the wife he just choked out, Katie Marinello: I know, I was like, why didn't she take her to her house, but Claire Fisher: well, [00:35:00] because you had to take a person home, right? And so the sponsor is saying, Are you all right, Mrs. Delaney? And she's nodding. She can't speak. He just Claire Fisher: and the first time we hear Lola's name all movie is when the sponsor is trying to, you know, Wake Dr. Claire Fisher: Delaney up and he says, you've been chasing Lola with a hatchet, and Dr. Delaney doesn't really believe it. He doesn't want to go to the hospital. His sponsor is insisting you go to the hospital. Cause you just tried to kill your wife, he actually runs upstairs and tries to kill himself. Claire Fisher: He tries to jump out a window. And he's screaming for Lola to come and help him. So the same woman he just attacked, he's now Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: for her help. And it's obvious that this is because they are all that they have, right? In a culture this repressive, they've alienated their other friends, they don't have family in town. Claire Fisher: She's both the one who is a horrible reminder and a trauma trigger, and she's the one he calls for. And vice versa, he's both her abuser and the one she relies Katie Marinello: only one she has, Claire Fisher: literally the only people she [00:36:00] has. Katie Marinello: Yeah, earlier she says to Marie, I wanted to get a job when we found out I couldn't have more children and he wouldn't hear of it. So again, we talked about this with Shampoo, the financial reliance. I mean, not that divorce is easy to acquire in the forties at all, but especially because she had nowhere to go. Katie Marinello: Her parents wouldn't take her back in and she would not have had any money of her own. Claire Fisher: there's nothing else. There's no shelters, her neighbor's advice is, you know what, just find some way to stay busy and Katie Marinello: Yeah. Get busy and forget about it. Yep. Claire Fisher: And she calls her mother long distance. Do you think daddy would let me come home? Katie Marinello: I think we should cut this in because it's really heartbreaking. [00:37:00] Claire Fisher: Absolutely, the most heartbreaking scene in the whole movie is her saying, tell daddy hello after she finds out. Claire Fisher: They're not gonna let her come home, Katie Marinello: I mean, it's been 15 to 20 years [00:38:00] since this all went down, that her father hasn't spoken to her and she's still looking for that love and that acceptance. Claire Fisher: so there's a time skip. It's now springtime. Turk is gonna be running at the spring relays today, but Mrs. Delaney's not going to the spring relays. She's cleaning the house in case they let Doc out today, in case he's released from the psych ward today. And we realize she's even more isolated because Marie has married Bruce and moved away. Claire Fisher: She doesn't answer the door to the mailman. You know, the mailman she was at least somewhat friendly with in the first act. She only just barely exchanges a few words with the neighbor and then he comes home. He says it's good to be home, and she says, is it? He starts crying, and she finds herself comforting him. Claire Fisher: So even though she's terrified, they end up together at the end. Katie Marinello: mhm, Claire Fisher: So as that reviewer said, they end where they began. They are stuck in this house, they're stuck in this marriage, they're stuck in this toxic and dangerous environment, Katie Marinello: yeah Claire Fisher: Till death do us part, right? [00:39:00] So yeah, when I say this is the world that people want to go back to, there have been very serious conversations politically about ending no fault divorce, ending access to birth control. Claire Fisher: They were already outlawing abortion in many states. Lot of couples ended up this way if they were forced to get married. Not all, obviously. But a lot of couples ended up this way in the past. It's important to remember that just because there is such a thing as a shotgun wedding with a happy ending. Claire Fisher: Doesn't mean that they will all be that way. And just because staying married instead of getting an easy divorce has some moral value, doesn't mean we should make it impossible to get a divorce if you Katie Marinello: Right. Yeah. It's that old meme that like, your grandparents didn't stay together because people had more commitment back then. It's because your grandmother had no choice, you Claire Fisher: Well, yeah, Katie Marinello: I, I do think that that's true for a lot of people and including some that we know or that we Claire Fisher: I do think, though, you know, when you say it was not easy to get a divorce in the 1940s, our great great [00:40:00] grandma managed it, didn't Katie Marinello: Well, yeah, but the way she managed it was by shacking up with someone else. Right. And then he could divorce her for infidelity. Claire Fisher: yeah, so, I mean, that's what she had to do to get it done was to commit adultery openly and enthusiastically. Katie Marinello: and find another man and leave all her children Claire Fisher: She did lose custody of the children some of whom didn't speak to her again. Again, the invention of no fault divorce was designed for people like Mrs. Delaney, and the invention of shelters and the invention of, welfare and things that, were supposed to help people get out of these bad situations have all been really important. Wait, Katie Marinello: neighbor really, like, I think she was actually possibly the most chilling character. I mean, obviously, screw Dr. Laney, no interest in him whatsoever. But to be busy is to be happy is the first thing she says, when she's Mrs. Delaney is trying to call across the way and talk to her and ask her to come over for coffee. Katie Marinello: And then [00:41:00] to her credit, she does intervene in the domestic violence situation, because Delaney at some point is like, Mrs. Delaney is like knocking on the door or whatever. I thought she would just. Ignore it because I think that was very much the thing to do, right? It's between the man and the woman. Katie Marinello: I mean, I think that still happens. But, she intervenes, she gets kind of, not gets between them, but, you know, like, is a witness, is someone there, tries to deescalate until the men finally show up. But then the next time we see her, she's like, Oh, it's so great. The doc's coming home. Claire Fisher: yeah, well, because they didn't have any choice, right, but to accept him back home, and Katie Marinello: right. So it makes me wonder, she says she has like six kids, right? It makes me wonder what's happening in her home. Is this a, you know, this is a story that could be happening in any home, and obviously still can be, but definitely to a different extent, because there was no choice. Claire Fisher: I mean, at least today [00:42:00] there's something to be said for the fact that fear of arrest might stop Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: abusive. Now, that's not universally true because as I was saying to my husband recently, I know the law is not the reason you don't hit me. Right? Like, you don't want to hit me, and that's good, right? Claire Fisher: And ideally, most people do not want to hit their spouses. For some people who want to, the fear of arrest is what's stopping them, right? For many people who want to, the fear of arrest does not stop them. We know this. We see the statistics. It is a reality, and Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: A painful one to this day. Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: However, the modern era, if you're getting hit, there are, at least in principle, options for leaving. That don't involve begging your parents to take you in, and Katie Marinello: And more parents would now. Right? There, I mean, certainly the attitude around, like, this child doesn't even exist. I mean, not that I think it's okay to disown your daughter if she gives birth to a live child. But, I mean, the idea of [00:43:00] holding that grudge against your kids, and like, certainly it still happens. Katie Marinello: We know that like 25 percent of youth on the street identify as LGBTQ, the homelessness rate, which among LGBTQ is astronomical. And so I'm sure it happens for people who get pregnant out of wedlock too, but overall. Much more common to not have that reaction. Katie Marinello: Still common to encourage them to get married. And I always say those are two life decisions that do not need to be linked. You know but that's neither here nor there. We have not really talked about Carrie Fisher. Let's talk about her. Claire Fisher: It is interesting, for as much as Marie really dominates the plot, Carrie Fisher doesn't get the most screen time here. The obvious focus is on Mrs. Delaney, not Katie Marinello: Yeah. Claire Fisher: She is the pretty young artist, she is dressed in very, what would have been very fashion [00:44:00] forward outfits for the 40s. Claire Fisher: She's flitting in and out of the house. She's going to college. She's dating two men. She's loving life. She has an energy and a zest that has obviously been sucked out of the two older women we see. Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: and her neighbor Mrs. Kaufman, right? Katie Marinello: She's a symbol, right? Like we talked about this earlier, that she is a symbol to Mrs. Delaney, one thing she's a symbol to Mr. Dr. Delaney of another thing. She's empowered in some ways, right. Katie Marinello: But there's an argument to be made that she is still trading on the one thing that she knows. Can get her power, right. You can get her, which is, her sexuality. And one review that I read said, you know, she's going to end up richer than Dr. Mrs. Delaney, if she marries Bruce, which it's said that they did Katie Marinello: but she's probably going to end up in the same kind of domestic life, right? Claire Fisher: Yeah, after the timeskip, she's dropped out of college, she's [00:45:00] moved away with Bruce and she and Bruce, the only thing we see them talk about is money. The only thing he says to her Katie Marinello: Right, I got the raise and I'm gonna get Claire Fisher: promotion. The only thing she mentions about him when she describes him to Mrs. Claire Fisher: Delaney is that his, he's in a family business, he sells stockings. I think, right? Katie Marinello: men's garters. Katie Marinello: His father made a fortune in men's garters. Claire Fisher: his entire, his entire identity is financial provider. Her entire identity is beauty, right? And, and that was marriage. By 40's standards, right? And so, Katie Marinello: And it's not really, implied that she likes Turk any better because their interactions are not really loving, you know? Like they're having sex and she's enjoying the sex, but the way he speaks to her is very disrespectful. The, I want to focus on studying, I need to study, turn the lights back on kind of thing. Katie Marinello: You know, it, it's very uncomfortable. And I understand that in the 1952 version, she [00:46:00] does not have him come back after he like tries to grope her or whatever. Katie Marinello: I mean, I liked her. I like this character way better than I like, obviously, the one from Claire Fisher: get more to do, and Katie Marinello: and she's such a sweetheart and she's like, so patient with Mrs. Delaney, right? Like, so kind to her and, you know, keeps telling her boyfriends, leave her alone. We want her to join us for dinner. Katie Marinello: We want her, you know, obviously she can come in here and ogle my boyfriend because I can't keep her out of her own home, Claire Fisher: Yeah, Katie Marinello: which is not how we think about tenants now, but Claire Fisher: It's interesting, she hasn't done a single thing wrong, but the conflict comes because they are projecting onto her. Katie Marinello: And what really annoyed me is that we do not get to see her reaction to the climax of the movie. We never see her again. Katie Marinello: She's not home. But clearly there would have been a moment where she came home. Dr. Delaney's not there. What did they tell her? You know, what did Mrs. Katie Marinello: Delaney tell her? How does she react to it? [00:47:00] And obviously she drops out of college and moves home. Is that because she didn't feel safe in the home anymore? Or is it because of, he's making all this money. I got to go home and start having kids. Like, I, I just, I felt like we were deprived of, the ending to her story, kind of. Katie Marinello: You know? Claire Fisher: The ending to her story is that she got married to the stable guy. Right. And that's I mean, our grandma Rita was in grad school, not college, when our grandpa proposed and she dropped out of grad school and quit her job and went home and had five kids straight in a row. Right. And, or less, yeah. Claire Fisher: that was, you know, the happy ending was that she's married off somewhere. Claire Fisher: Of course, we know Our grandma then had, you know, another 75 years on this earth and many good times, right? But that's not what this story is telling us. This story is not going to tell us whether the Marie ends up happy, sad, drunk, alone. This isn't that story. Katie Marinello: right? Yeah. I just [00:48:00] thought it was weird. I was like, I felt like there was a chapter missing. But the time skip covers that. And again, I read in a synopsis of the 1952 that he comes home four days later. So they really, they made it a much longer, Claire Fisher: Four, Katie Marinello: you know, time that Mrs. Delaney has been on her own, since Marie moved out. So Claire Fisher: or four months? Katie Marinello: four days Claire Fisher: Oh, okay. So Katie Marinello: that he like in the play or the 1952 movie, he kind of like dries out and comes home kind of thing. Claire Fisher: that would have been the standard treatment in the forties would have been to just get you physically detoxed and then send you home. Katie Marinello: Right. Claire Fisher: all right. So I guess we can wrap up with some trivia on a slightly Katie Marinello: Yeah. Go ahead. Claire Fisher: So wait. Should we say like, did you enjoy the film? Claire Fisher: I did, but it also broke my heart. Katie Marinello: Yeah. I had a really hard time getting through it. And it, not just because [00:49:00] I started at like 10 30 at night, I was really struggling and I almost stopped. Maybe because we've seen so many unhappy white people plays, you know, that there's going to be something right. Some, some, something. Katie Marinello: And so there's that like tension. And then there's also just like the secondhand embarrassment of her, like. Chat, chat, chat, chat, chat, chat. Right. Talking to people who clearly don't have any interest in her and then the frustration with just the sexual mores of the time and the way that they are echoed in modern times. Katie Marinello: I had a really hard time with it. I do think that I enjoyed it in that I had a lot to think about and a lot to talk about. Like wait, like Shampoo. I got to the end of it. I was like, nothing happened in that movie. And there's a lot more plot in that movie, right? Whereas. I got to the end of this one. Katie Marinello: I was like, well, a lot happened. I wish it hadn't. I need to go to bed now. Claire Fisher: yeah, don't think it's because. I've seen too many of these plays, I think it's because I've known too many of these people. Right, I have known [00:50:00] couples where the husband was dealing with something, an addiction, or some mental health crisis, and the wife was doing her best to ignore it, and that translated as, you know, a whole lot of trauma dumping on practical strangers, and, over investing in other people's relationships. Katie Marinello: I've been the next door neighbor. I mean, I've been the one who hears it through the wall. So, Claire Fisher: I've been the date of the teenager who, is coming to the house has been like, Okay, your parents are crazy people. And you know, had to sort of back out. Katie Marinello: You've been Bruce, basically, right? Like, okay, let's go. Claire Fisher: Let's leave before this dynamic turns dangerous, which Katie Marinello: Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: gonna, you know Mm hmm. Claire Fisher: and after I watched it, I was kind of crying a little and I was talking to Brian about it and I was like, you know, I know couples for whom when no fault divorce was invented, they felt like it was already too late to leave. Claire Fisher: Even though they'd been living like that for 40 years, right? And we know people from that generation. We're old enough to have seen some of their marriages at the tail end of them, [00:51:00] yes. , we've even had our own grandpa had to be shipped off to the psych ward and then, was just sent home. With no, you know, Katie Marinello: On the bus, yeah. Katie Marinello: Let's be clear that he was not a physically abusive Claire Fisher: no, no, but he was seriously ill and like the idea of just like sending someone straight home to their family Katie Marinello: Right, instead of having him dry out and go home, it's like, give him a couple of rounds of electroshock and send him Claire Fisher: right, and Katie Marinello: dropped him off in the backyard. Claire Fisher: Yeah, instead of driving around to the front because the backyard was closer to the highway. Katie Marinello: Yep. Claire Fisher: So, you know, the awkward homecoming Katie Marinello: Mhm. Claire Fisher: in his case, he was coming home to the wife who'd had him committed. This guy's coming home to a wife he tried to kill. So yes, a different level of awkward, but still, the Katie Marinello: Resentment. Resentment, right? That's the common thread there. Claire Fisher: the tension, the resentment, and yet the fact that they stay together, right? And they stay together and they stay together. I was thinking like, we know these people, we know this tragedy, we've seen it before, [00:52:00] and thank God we haven't had to live it you know, you because being single is now allowed, me because a marriage is no longer expected to be what it used to be expected to be, and my husband and I are free to, you know, navigate a different dynamic, it is scary to think about I say it broke my heart. I mean, I was sad for Doc, even though he's abusive. Like, I was very sad to see that he was dealing with a lot of trauma. That was driving him to drink. I was sad for Mrs. Delaney because she shouldn't have had to put up with him and his rampages. Claire Fisher: Guess Marie kind of made out the best out of any of them, right? Because was sad for her because she was living in this narrative that she didn't know anything about and we all are. I mean, women are always living in that narrative that they don't know anything about, right? We are all and. You and I have both experienced this, you more than me. We are all at the mercy of these fantasies that these men write us into sometimes. Katie Marinello: This is a thing that happens all the freaking time where [00:53:00] men have written this narrative in their heads about who you are and what you should or should not do. And yeah, women end up dying for it, like you said. Katie Marinello: So yeah. So I felt bad for her too though. Claire Fisher: Let's rate Marie on a scale of one to five Hutt Slayers Katie Marinello: This one's a tough one, I think. Claire Fisher: Well, she has some agency, but she doesn't really get to do all that much with it, so I'm gonna have to give her just a two Hutt Slayers. Katie Marinello: I was thinking like two or three. Cause she is a very liberated woman who does make her own decisions, but she's still living in this construct. Claire Fisher: If the story was focused on her character we, she may slay more huts, but as written two Hutt Slayers in my book. Katie Marinello: Okay. Sounds good. Claire Fisher: Alright, so to end on a lighter note, a little bit of trivia Katie Marinello: Yes, for the love of God, give me something funny. Claire Fisher: this aired on New Year's Eve of 1977. NBC heavily promoted it with a commercial saying it was Carrie Fisher of Star [00:54:00] Wars. Carrie Fisher of Star Wars. And it came dead last in the primetime ratings for the Katie Marinello: Oh no! Claire Fisher: Because it was New Year's Eve. Claire Fisher: Like, people Katie Marinello: can't go up against Dick Clark! And Dick Clark was doing his stuff, right? Claire Fisher: Clark's Rock in New Year's Eve was on A, B, C you know, and NBC, it just tanked. Katie Marinello: Yeah. Oh my god. Yeah. They would never do that now, right? Like they would, like, New Year's Eve programming is on every channel from like five o'clock on. Claire Fisher: yeah, it didn't work then and it wouldn't work today. However, on a funnier note, during production, Joanne Woodward told Lawrence Olivier, do you know, we've actually met once before? Katie Marinello: Ooh. Scandalous. Claire Fisher: When she was nine years old she had attended the premiere of Gone with the Wind and he was the plus one of Vivian Leigh whom married after their divorces from their previous spouses came through and Joanne had jumped in his lap when she walked past his chair and been like, hi, Mr. Claire Fisher: Olivier And when [00:55:00] she brought this up when they were producing this play, he remembered Oh, yeah, a little girl did jump on my lap. That was you! So it'd have been 40 years, almost, since Gone with the Wind would have been 39. So it'd have been like 38 years later. Katie Marinello: So, okay, question, why was she at the premiere? Claire Fisher: it didn't say. Katie Marinello: Interesting. Claire Fisher: mean, I think you used to be able to just go to premieres. Katie Marinello: I mean, I guess you still are, but you're not usually allowed to walk by the famous people. Claire Fisher: Well, you were then. I Claire Fisher: think they did things a little differently those days. Remember, this would have been the same premiere of Gone with the Wind, where some of the stars of the movie weren't allowed to be there because Katie Marinello: Because of segregation, yes. Claire Fisher: segregation. So, you know the times were different. Katie Marinello: They were different, yes. Claire Fisher: The whole Laurence Olivier, Vivian Lee relationship deserves to be its own epic biopic too she almost couldn't be cast in Gone with the Wind because it was such a scandal that they were each leaving a spouse for, for each other. Claire Fisher: And then, When they went on a tour in [00:56:00] Australia in the 50s, she started sleeping with Peter Finch, who is I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore from Network, that Peter Finch. And then Laurence Olivier put him on contract at Laurence Olivier Productions so that he could move to Great Britain to continue sleeping with Laurence Olivier's wife. Katie Marinello: Okay. Katie Marinello: Many, many questions. Claire Fisher: know, someone make a play about that. Claire Fisher: What's up next, Katie? Katie Marinello: So coming up next is Ringo 1978. It is a 45 minute TV movie, so we should be able to knock this out pretty quick. Ringo, stressed out by fame, trades places with a schmuck who looks exactly like him. Katie Marinello: Then the problems start. Okay, so, I feel better about this one. While Ringo and the Beatles are not known for their progressive attitudes towards women, this one probably won't end in anyone trying to kill anyone else. And I don't know who Carrie Fisher is in it, but she is in [00:57:00] this still from it on IMDb. Claire Fisher: So I have seen one part of this. I have seen the music video for Ringo's version of You're 16. Which is, You come on like a dream, peaches and cream, lips Katie Marinello: oh, geez. Okay. So again, living in a man's man's fantasy, Claire Fisher: actually, Katie Marinello: in the country song. Yeah. Claire Fisher: But anyway, I apparently have seen two minutes of this at some Katie Marinello: two minutes out of the 44, that's like 1 Claire Fisher: it's gonna be really easy to finish the rest. All right, so I guess we'll be talking about that in a couple of weeks. Claire Fisher: But until then, just remember the immortal words of Carrie Fisher, Katie Marinello: my life wasn't funny, it would only be true. Claire Fisher: and Katie Marinello: And that's unacceptable. Katie Marinello: ​Thanks for listening to another episode of Carried Far, Far Away. This podcast is hosted, produced, edited, re-edited, obsessed over, and loved by Katie Marinello and Claire Fisher. You can follow the show [00:58:00] on Facebook and Instagram at Carried Away Pod. You can email us at awaycarriedpod@gmail.com. You can follow Claire at Dead Fictional Girlfriends and Katie at Katiedaway. All clips used in this podcast are done so under the protection of fair use. Have a wonderful week and may the force be with you. Katie Marinello: And now our space, grandma wisdom of the week. Interviewer: You actually physically transformed for this role. Carrie Fisher: I did lose weight. And I think it's a stupid conversation. Interviewer: Okay, we'll move on. We'll move on. Carrie Fisher: Not with you. I mean, it's good with you, but normally I wouldn't talk about it with someone else. But you're so thin, let's talk about it.