WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:02.110 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Equine Assisted World. 00:00:02.140 --> 00:00:05.260 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New York Times best selling 00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:08.330 author of The Horse Boy, The Long Ride Home, and The Healing Land. 00:00:08.379 --> 00:00:11.889 Before I jump in with today's guest, I just want to say a huge 00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:15.139 thank you to you, our audience, for helping to make this happen. 00:00:15.229 --> 00:00:15.999 I have a request. 00:00:16.520 --> 00:00:22.009 If you like what we do, please like, subscribe, tell a friend. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.319 It really helps us get this work done. 00:00:24.529 --> 00:00:27.299 As you might know from my books, I'm an autism dad. 00:00:27.805 --> 00:00:30.645 And over the last 20 years, we've developed several 00:00:31.345 --> 00:00:35.285 equine assisted, neuroscience backed certification programs. 00:00:35.884 --> 00:00:38.485 If you'd like to find out more about them, go to newtrailslearning. 00:00:40.664 --> 00:00:40.814 com. 00:00:41.065 --> 00:00:43.665 So without further ado, let's meet today's guest. 00:00:44.419 --> 00:00:45.080 Welcome back. 00:00:45.109 --> 00:00:46.639 I've got Lucy Dillon. 00:00:46.639 --> 00:00:51.659 Lucy Dillon, I've known for some time, and she runs the equine 00:00:51.659 --> 00:00:55.619 unit at Child Vision in Dublin. 00:00:55.649 --> 00:00:59.639 And when I say in Dublin, I don't mean outside Dublin, I mean right in the 00:00:59.639 --> 00:01:02.639 middle of Dublin place called Drum Condra. 00:01:03.109 --> 00:01:07.850 So she's providing equine services to people of all kinds of special 00:01:07.850 --> 00:01:09.859 needs right there in the city center. 00:01:10.229 --> 00:01:16.139 Populations who would not normally have access at all, and therefore, of course 00:01:16.139 --> 00:01:23.070 has to make it work, particularly for equine wellbeing in a way that many 00:01:23.070 --> 00:01:25.494 people who are running centers who have. 00:01:26.279 --> 00:01:29.729 The luxury of doing it from a place in the country do not have 00:01:29.729 --> 00:01:31.350 to strategize around quite so much. 00:01:31.379 --> 00:01:37.169 And child vision, vision might give you a bit of a clue as to what 00:01:37.199 --> 00:01:43.990 many of the clients and service users are facing problems with 00:01:44.420 --> 00:01:46.369 and conditions affecting sight. 00:01:46.789 --> 00:01:47.509 It used to be St. 00:01:47.509 --> 00:01:52.039 Joseph's School for the Blind, but the services go way beyond that 00:01:52.130 --> 00:01:54.710 and are being offered at scale. 00:01:54.950 --> 00:02:04.229 So Lucy works her behind off and produces a service that I have been watching now 00:02:04.229 --> 00:02:10.180 for over a decade, well over a decade more like approaching 15 years and just 00:02:10.180 --> 00:02:11.470 kind of going from strength to strength. 00:02:11.470 --> 00:02:12.580 So she's one of my heroes. 00:02:12.820 --> 00:02:14.710 So Lucy, thanks for coming on. 00:02:15.100 --> 00:02:18.550 Can you tell us a little bit about who you are, what you do, and why you do it? 00:02:19.765 --> 00:02:21.235 Lucy Dillon: Okay, so yeah, I'm Lucy. 00:02:21.475 --> 00:02:24.445 I, so I run the equine unit in Chart Vision. 00:02:24.445 --> 00:02:29.755 I've been working there for nine and a half years, but I've been running 00:02:29.755 --> 00:02:31.585 the unit for just over two years now. 00:02:32.215 --> 00:02:35.865 We have 10 horses, 'cause I actually recently just purchased two more. 00:02:36.195 --> 00:02:39.925 And we see roughly 150 kids a week. 00:02:40.255 --> 00:02:42.924 And that would be a mixture of children from our internal services. 00:02:42.924 --> 00:02:45.495 So like, Rupert says there we are, child Vision, which is the 00:02:45.825 --> 00:02:48.645 National Education Center for children with vision impairment. 00:02:48.945 --> 00:02:52.725 So that's children from our preschool, our primary school, and then there 00:02:52.725 --> 00:02:54.555 is an adult residential service. 00:02:55.105 --> 00:02:57.905 So we see a couple of the young adults in that service as well. 00:02:58.145 --> 00:03:02.135 And then we see external clients and the majority of those 00:03:02.135 --> 00:03:03.845 would be children with autism. 00:03:04.145 --> 00:03:07.715 And then recently, more and more we're starting to see children who perhaps 00:03:07.715 --> 00:03:12.785 maybe do have diagnosis as well, but would also fall into areas where, 00:03:12.815 --> 00:03:18.605 say, perhaps community groups where they are experiencing trauma, either 00:03:18.605 --> 00:03:22.985 through their, their living con living environment or their family environment. 00:03:23.035 --> 00:03:25.795 And so we are often, that's sort of a service we're offering 00:03:25.795 --> 00:03:27.355 more and more now as well. 00:03:28.885 --> 00:03:30.925 Rupert Isaacson: Your background, your English obviously, and you 00:03:31.795 --> 00:03:33.385 are living there in Ireland. 00:03:33.485 --> 00:03:38.525 How did that happen and what was your horsey background before you got 00:03:38.525 --> 00:03:41.255 into this whole therapeutic malarkey? 00:03:41.315 --> 00:03:43.895 And why did you get into this therapeutic malarkey? 00:03:44.165 --> 00:03:45.215 Because it's such hard work. 00:03:46.700 --> 00:03:47.060 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 00:03:47.060 --> 00:03:48.920 Although actually on that point, I always think that people 00:03:48.920 --> 00:03:49.820 always say, oh, it's such public. 00:03:49.880 --> 00:03:53.000 It's public, but it's actually really good fun as well. 00:03:53.000 --> 00:03:53.930 That's, that's indeed. 00:03:55.045 --> 00:03:56.120 People always say that to me. 00:03:56.120 --> 00:03:58.310 Oh gosh, it must be so hard working with those children. 00:03:58.310 --> 00:04:00.350 You're like, no, it's just really good fun. 00:04:00.740 --> 00:04:00.830 Yeah. 00:04:00.910 --> 00:04:02.290 You know, we have a laugh. 00:04:02.340 --> 00:04:04.260 Yeah, no, so I, yeah, I'm obviously English. 00:04:04.310 --> 00:04:08.720 I'm from just outside North London from a completely non horsey family. 00:04:09.040 --> 00:04:11.590 Just really, really, you know, I was that little girl that loved 00:04:11.590 --> 00:04:15.670 horsey books and, you know, looked up ponies and just wanted to ride. 00:04:15.670 --> 00:04:18.790 And I probably had my first ride in lesson when I was, I 00:04:18.790 --> 00:04:20.380 don't know, about eight or so. 00:04:20.880 --> 00:04:23.340 A very big center, which is still there actually in North 00:04:23.340 --> 00:04:25.440 London, called Trent Park, and I 00:04:25.770 --> 00:04:28.890 Rupert Isaacson: rode at Trent Park too, being a fellow London North Londoner. 00:04:28.890 --> 00:04:29.280 Yeah. 00:04:29.940 --> 00:04:30.600 Lucy Dillon: Very funny. 00:04:30.870 --> 00:04:33.780 A friend, very good school friend of mine who's like completely non horsey. 00:04:33.780 --> 00:04:37.740 Her daughter now rides at Trent Park and is like, she's just me at 13 years old. 00:04:39.020 --> 00:04:40.820 Lives up there if, if she, if she can. 00:04:41.040 --> 00:04:44.130 And then I progressed to a different place in Enfield, which is also in North London. 00:04:44.130 --> 00:04:46.290 Quin, funnily enough, all my horses actually went. 00:04:46.290 --> 00:04:49.350 I actually went further into London to do all that rather than out 00:04:49.350 --> 00:04:51.300 into the huck cart for countryside. 00:04:51.840 --> 00:04:54.020 And was just completely mad about them. 00:04:54.620 --> 00:04:58.220 Had my own pony who was useless, but I adored him. 00:04:58.820 --> 00:05:02.990 And and then when I was finishing school, I wanted to do a degree in 00:05:02.990 --> 00:05:06.140 horses, which was a very new thing. 00:05:06.140 --> 00:05:09.200 There was actually only two degrees in horses at that point, and neither 00:05:09.200 --> 00:05:10.610 of them had actually finished. 00:05:10.610 --> 00:05:12.620 I had had a full cycle of people doing them. 00:05:13.250 --> 00:05:16.190 So, my parents were like, well, you know, you sure about this? 00:05:16.220 --> 00:05:18.680 Maybe you should go and work for a year and actually make 00:05:18.680 --> 00:05:19.970 sure you really wanna do this. 00:05:20.030 --> 00:05:24.290 So I went and worked in a place in Hartfordshire as a working pupil 00:05:24.620 --> 00:05:28.310 through a scheme that's long, long gone, which was called YTS in those days. 00:05:28.550 --> 00:05:30.410 Rupert Isaacson: I remember YTS Youth Training Scheme. 00:05:30.410 --> 00:05:31.190 Yes, yes. 00:05:31.640 --> 00:05:31.910 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 00:05:31.910 --> 00:05:33.620 And I did my BHS exams. 00:05:33.650 --> 00:05:33.680 Okay. 00:05:35.015 --> 00:05:35.825 Lovely woman. 00:05:35.825 --> 00:05:39.215 She was an examiner herself and the center did run some exams as well. 00:05:39.215 --> 00:05:43.025 So it was a great experience and was then still completely convinced I wanted 00:05:43.025 --> 00:05:44.855 to go to university and study horses. 00:05:45.215 --> 00:05:50.795 And so I went to Warwick Agricultural College and did the BA in equine studies. 00:05:51.395 --> 00:05:55.085 And that wasn't particularly a practical degree, it was like a 00:05:55.085 --> 00:05:57.935 business, like people do business in French or business and something, 00:05:57.935 --> 00:05:59.405 it was like business and horses. 00:05:59.805 --> 00:06:03.315 But then I also, while I was there, I really sort of immersed myself in 00:06:03.315 --> 00:06:06.345 the equine unit and sort of got to know, 'cause there's lots of practical 00:06:06.345 --> 00:06:07.755 courses running there as well. 00:06:08.005 --> 00:06:11.095 I got to know everybody in the unit and I worked there for a year 00:06:11.095 --> 00:06:14.005 and a half in my placement year, which is like your third year. 00:06:14.815 --> 00:06:17.975 And that involved you know, helping with the, helping obviously with the lessons 00:06:17.975 --> 00:06:19.175 and the students and stuff like that. 00:06:19.565 --> 00:06:22.265 But also they had a four stallion stud at that point as well. 00:06:22.855 --> 00:06:26.395 So it was working on the stud as well and and then breaking the youngsters 00:06:26.395 --> 00:06:27.775 and, and all that sort of thing. 00:06:27.775 --> 00:06:30.535 So it was really good and, and the staff were really good there. 00:06:30.535 --> 00:06:31.825 The training was really good. 00:06:31.825 --> 00:06:33.205 There was some really good riders. 00:06:33.635 --> 00:06:37.235 Most of the staff and then actually the woman I did my YTS with 00:06:37.595 --> 00:06:39.725 trained with Jenny Lauriston Clark. 00:06:40.085 --> 00:06:44.390 So it was all very sort of traditional based training that 00:06:44.470 --> 00:06:45.830 I had through all that time. 00:06:45.890 --> 00:06:48.155 Rupert Isaacson: For, for listeners and viewers that, dunno who Jenny Lar 00:06:48.305 --> 00:06:50.705 and Clarke was or perhaps still is. 00:06:51.075 --> 00:06:57.165 She was the lady who kind of put dressage on the map in the UK sort of in the 00:06:57.195 --> 00:06:59.145 eighties, really seventies and eighties. 00:06:59.145 --> 00:07:02.655 She was the sort of face of it for a long, long time. 00:07:02.775 --> 00:07:03.105 Yeah. 00:07:03.105 --> 00:07:04.335 So she was very knowledgeable. 00:07:05.085 --> 00:07:08.205 Lucy Dillon: Yeah, I think she was the first Olympic like person to go to the 00:07:08.205 --> 00:07:12.895 Olympics dress lodge in the UK with Dutch Gold and the Cabon Stud, which was 00:07:12.895 --> 00:07:15.355 a famous stud in Hampshire, isn't it? 00:07:15.355 --> 00:07:15.985 I think it was. 00:07:15.985 --> 00:07:16.045 Yeah. 00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:19.990 And yeah, so my time at college was great. 00:07:19.990 --> 00:07:20.740 I really enjoyed it. 00:07:20.740 --> 00:07:21.910 I really enjoyed college. 00:07:21.960 --> 00:07:22.440 You know, it was great. 00:07:22.440 --> 00:07:27.520 Crack at college is great crack and then I learned a huge amount about horses 00:07:27.520 --> 00:07:30.850 and we had some fabulous horses in the college as well, which was great. 00:07:30.850 --> 00:07:32.350 Like a lot of x three day event. 00:07:32.350 --> 00:07:35.110 Horses, x dress horses for the students to ride. 00:07:35.770 --> 00:07:38.650 And then when I finished college, I wanted to be a lecturer 00:07:39.190 --> 00:07:40.780 in an agricultural college. 00:07:40.780 --> 00:07:44.770 And I went to W Hampton and did a postgraduate teaching diploma and 00:07:44.770 --> 00:07:49.180 taught in Northampton Agricultural College during the time I was doing it. 00:07:49.940 --> 00:07:51.530 Rupert Isaacson: And you taught equine stuff? 00:07:51.830 --> 00:07:56.360 Lucy Dillon: Equine stuff, yeah, yeah, like science and that sort of thing to 00:07:56.360 --> 00:08:00.340 sort of, what was called then National Diploma Students and higher National 00:08:00.340 --> 00:08:04.120 diploma students, which are less sort of, that's like, a level equivalent. 00:08:04.120 --> 00:08:07.330 So sort of leaving school age type courses. 00:08:07.810 --> 00:08:09.220 And then my. 00:08:09.700 --> 00:08:12.400 Then boyfriend, now husband, he moved back. 00:08:12.400 --> 00:08:15.850 He was working as a manager of a college, a thoroughbred 00:08:15.850 --> 00:08:17.530 college, working in stud work. 00:08:17.710 --> 00:08:22.040 But he took a job back in Ireland, in a stud farm near where he grew up. 00:08:22.880 --> 00:08:25.550 So I followed him back home basically. 00:08:26.990 --> 00:08:29.270 And we, I, I moved back. 00:08:29.330 --> 00:08:33.380 I moved here, so that would be 27 years ago, next month. 00:08:34.160 --> 00:08:36.880 And so I've lived here longer than I lived in England now. 00:08:37.030 --> 00:08:37.240 Rupert Isaacson: Right? 00:08:37.330 --> 00:08:37.480 Yeah. 00:08:37.530 --> 00:08:41.570 Lucy Dillon: And then I did get it offered a job to, to continue lecturing. 00:08:41.910 --> 00:08:44.220 But it was a long, long way away from where I'd moved to. 00:08:44.790 --> 00:08:46.620 So I, I didn't do that. 00:08:46.680 --> 00:08:50.550 And I started working for a family who ran a big ride in school and 00:08:50.550 --> 00:08:52.530 an event yard called Kinsler's. 00:08:52.530 --> 00:08:53.730 Really lovely family. 00:08:53.730 --> 00:08:56.400 Again, really nice horses to ride. 00:08:56.400 --> 00:08:58.170 Nice riders themselves. 00:08:58.620 --> 00:09:02.890 And, I worked there for about nearly two years, and in that 00:09:02.890 --> 00:09:05.920 time I got married and then I also had my first child in that time. 00:09:06.430 --> 00:09:10.300 And I then stopped working when he was about three months old, just 'cause 00:09:10.300 --> 00:09:12.250 of things that happened in my life. 00:09:12.250 --> 00:09:17.110 And then I carried on teaching riding and riding for people and 00:09:17.110 --> 00:09:20.590 teaching privately and teaching pony club and all that sort of thing. 00:09:20.590 --> 00:09:21.580 Had two more children. 00:09:22.150 --> 00:09:26.199 And then I found out about Child Vision through Terry Rosen, 00:09:26.199 --> 00:09:27.339 who was the manager there. 00:09:28.160 --> 00:09:30.740 She'd put an advert out looking for staff, and I just sort of thought, 00:09:30.740 --> 00:09:32.930 oh, you know what, that sounds nice. 00:09:32.930 --> 00:09:36.680 I'm, you know, I, I've been teaching kids for a long, long time. 00:09:36.740 --> 00:09:39.380 I was a little bit frustrated in the job I was in. 00:09:39.915 --> 00:09:43.515 It was a lovely, lovely yard, but it wasn't growing in the way that I, it 00:09:43.515 --> 00:09:44.955 was sort of, I thought it was going to. 00:09:45.315 --> 00:09:48.975 And so I applied for travel vision and kind of that's, that's it. 00:09:48.975 --> 00:09:52.575 Then after that, I just really liked it once I started and went 00:09:52.575 --> 00:09:56.505 from part-time to more part-time to full-time and now running it 00:09:57.675 --> 00:09:58.215 Rupert Isaacson: now. 00:09:59.025 --> 00:10:00.405 That all sounds very smooth. 00:10:00.505 --> 00:10:05.695 When I first met you however many years ago that was, and I should, I should 00:10:05.815 --> 00:10:09.844 by the way iterate here that Lucy has only gotten younger since I met her, 00:10:09.844 --> 00:10:11.255 whereas I of course have gotten older. 00:10:11.645 --> 00:10:16.205 But back when we first met, I remember we were doing a horse boy training at 00:10:16.205 --> 00:10:20.945 Child Vision, and I don't think, it wasn't the first one I'd done that. 00:10:20.945 --> 00:10:22.805 I think the first one I did was. 00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:30.470 In June of 2013 or something, I remember a blizzard hit while we were doing 00:10:30.470 --> 00:10:35.150 it outside there and I was thinking, God, how did these Irish do it? 00:10:35.330 --> 00:10:41.330 And I thought I was hard coming from the uk and I watched you guys at Child 00:10:41.330 --> 00:10:48.320 Vision over the years, despite the fact that you were attached to a very 00:10:48.320 --> 00:10:53.540 large institution and school that was relatively well funded despite the fact 00:10:53.540 --> 00:10:59.420 that you were there in the middle of Dublin where one does have access to 00:11:00.140 --> 00:11:02.000 fundraising and that sort of thing. 00:11:02.510 --> 00:11:07.430 Despite all of that, the equine unit, I have to say for a long, 00:11:07.430 --> 00:11:11.810 long time, was somewhat marginalized despite the fact that you guys 00:11:11.810 --> 00:11:13.550 were doing an amazing job there. 00:11:14.120 --> 00:11:16.940 And so therefore the working conditions were tough. 00:11:17.330 --> 00:11:18.790 And I remember doing. 00:11:19.465 --> 00:11:23.815 Training after training there, sort of out in the rain in the, I'm watching 00:11:23.815 --> 00:11:30.685 you guys just like battle through and produce a really sterling service, 00:11:30.745 --> 00:11:32.575 like no matter the conditions. 00:11:32.895 --> 00:11:37.245 And the fact that the horses also had to live, you know, basically mostly inside. 00:11:37.485 --> 00:11:40.035 There wasn't really turnout when I first went to Child Vision. 00:11:40.035 --> 00:11:43.095 There was, there was actually a small estate still attached to 00:11:43.095 --> 00:11:47.235 it, but then that was all sold for housing and things shrank and shrank. 00:11:47.235 --> 00:11:52.155 And then I watched you guys getting really clever about how to use the local 00:11:52.275 --> 00:11:58.455 rugby field for trails and how to rotate your horses in and out from town to 00:11:58.455 --> 00:12:02.085 country to ensure that they had their wellbeing and their turnout and so on. 00:12:02.415 --> 00:12:03.615 And I watched you guys really. 00:12:04.890 --> 00:12:09.120 Not just deliver this amazing service to up to 200 clients a 00:12:09.120 --> 00:12:14.880 week, but really ensure that the standard remained incredibly high no 00:12:14.880 --> 00:12:15.990 matter what you were dealing with. 00:12:15.990 --> 00:12:16.650 Things are much better. 00:12:16.650 --> 00:12:19.080 Now, I know that you, you guys have an indoor arena and so on. 00:12:19.410 --> 00:12:24.570 Can you talk to us about, you know, you'd come out of agricultural colleges 00:12:24.570 --> 00:12:26.280 where they have all the nice facilities. 00:12:26.520 --> 00:12:30.310 You'd come out of those, you know, north London riding schools like Trent 00:12:30.310 --> 00:12:32.140 Park, which have great facilities. 00:12:32.410 --> 00:12:36.730 You'd come out of that nice event yard, and then you find yourself 00:12:37.300 --> 00:12:39.310 in this kind of pioneer situation. 00:12:39.490 --> 00:12:44.189 And Terry Brosnan, by the way, anyone listening, you need to go listen to the to 00:12:44.189 --> 00:12:48.239 the podcast we did with Terry, who talks about having grown up in the troubles 00:12:48.569 --> 00:12:52.539 and what she had to deal with just as a family, let alone, you know, but it, it 00:12:52.539 --> 00:12:54.930 brings a certain resilience to the table. 00:12:55.649 --> 00:12:57.629 Which I think is really important in what we do. 00:12:58.079 --> 00:13:01.949 Talk to us about how you guys made it work there, because I was 00:13:01.949 --> 00:13:03.269 always really impressed with that. 00:13:04.709 --> 00:13:07.470 Lucy Dillon: Well, I suppose I had been working in yards without indoors 00:13:07.470 --> 00:13:09.209 for the last however many years. 00:13:09.209 --> 00:13:12.019 I think bef when James was born, I worked for the Kinsler. 00:13:12.079 --> 00:13:14.959 That was the last yard I worked in that had an indoor right 00:13:14.959 --> 00:13:16.519 after it was all outdoor. 00:13:16.689 --> 00:13:19.099 And so I was well used to the rain. 00:13:19.399 --> 00:13:21.079 Especially for my own horses at home. 00:13:21.079 --> 00:13:24.619 I, I just used, I just ride in the field at home. 00:13:25.369 --> 00:13:28.749 And I suppose we just kind of got on with it really. 00:13:29.159 --> 00:13:32.129 Because, you know, and you know, this is Ireland, you know, it's 00:13:32.129 --> 00:13:35.069 gonna rain, you know, it's gonna be cold, you know, it's gonna be gray. 00:13:35.309 --> 00:13:38.519 You know, it rained for 50 days, the first half, first 50 days of this year. 00:13:38.519 --> 00:13:41.339 This year, although we had an indoor this year, it makes all the difference. 00:13:41.639 --> 00:13:42.089 Yeah. 00:13:42.089 --> 00:13:46.289 And then I suppose we just, we just got better and better at what we were doing. 00:13:46.289 --> 00:13:49.609 You know, at the beginning we were just learning, you know, what we were doing. 00:13:49.609 --> 00:13:54.259 But I do think there's a huge amount of skills if you've worked with horses for 00:13:54.259 --> 00:13:58.759 a long time and you've trained horses and you, you know, I, I, I've broken a lot of 00:13:58.759 --> 00:14:02.389 horses in my time and worked with young event horses and, and that's my thing. 00:14:02.389 --> 00:14:02.989 That's what I love. 00:14:02.989 --> 00:14:04.279 I'm not really a competition rider. 00:14:04.279 --> 00:14:04.849 Never was. 00:14:04.849 --> 00:14:08.839 I, I did a bit of competing on a horse I had, but I actually preferred 00:14:08.839 --> 00:14:11.209 more when I worked with the event horses, schooling them all, weak for 00:14:11.209 --> 00:14:12.679 the other person to compete them. 00:14:12.679 --> 00:14:13.669 I was lorry driver. 00:14:13.909 --> 00:14:16.309 That was my job when I worked with the event horses. 00:14:16.999 --> 00:14:20.449 And I suppose we just put all, a lot of effort into the horses. 00:14:20.969 --> 00:14:24.119 And it was really nice to see these horses, particularly as some of them 00:14:24.119 --> 00:14:29.159 were a bit older, once we started doing all the, the horse boy stuff with them, 00:14:29.159 --> 00:14:35.549 tra change and, and become happier and more physically able to do their jobs. 00:14:35.969 --> 00:14:37.789 And then, I suppose we had a great team. 00:14:37.789 --> 00:14:41.839 Myself and Terry are great friends as well as work colleagues. 00:14:41.839 --> 00:14:44.779 Like we know we were right from the word go actually. 00:14:44.809 --> 00:14:48.469 'cause like literally the week I started there, we realized that my daughter 00:14:48.469 --> 00:14:51.949 and her twin daughters were starting school together, secondary school. 00:14:51.949 --> 00:14:54.519 And they, they, they're still great friends as well. 00:14:54.819 --> 00:14:58.569 So yeah, we just, I dunno, I suppose we just got on with it really. 00:14:59.199 --> 00:15:02.859 I think it helps if you are very, and I'm really, this is one thing I'm really 00:15:02.859 --> 00:15:06.759 passionate actually about equine assist activities and all those things is if you 00:15:06.759 --> 00:15:11.979 are really confident in your horses and you know how to train your horses, you 00:15:11.979 --> 00:15:14.049 can be really confident in the rest of it. 00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:17.409 And you can, and you can see it, you can see it in the 00:15:17.409 --> 00:15:19.239 horses that we have now as well. 00:15:19.329 --> 00:15:23.079 And some of 'em are the same horses that we had eight, nine years ago. 00:15:23.299 --> 00:15:25.549 And then we've got obviously got new ones over the years. 00:15:25.649 --> 00:15:26.964 I suppose, yeah, we just kept going. 00:15:26.964 --> 00:15:28.404 Really just kept doing it. 00:15:29.274 --> 00:15:29.694 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 00:15:29.784 --> 00:15:33.084 It's it what you, you know, you had a lot of background and I remember when 00:15:33.084 --> 00:15:39.294 I first met you and Terry and you know, it was, it's always a great relief for 00:15:39.294 --> 00:15:45.984 me when I'm doing trainings, when all I need to do is sort of show the techniques 00:15:45.984 --> 00:15:50.064 for this particular subset population, in this case, autism or whatever. 00:15:50.464 --> 00:15:53.614 And some equine techniques to people who already have this 00:15:53.794 --> 00:15:55.894 immensely solid equine background. 00:15:56.104 --> 00:15:58.684 'cause I know that all they need to do is just take the tools and 00:15:58.684 --> 00:16:00.934 add them to the tools that they've already got and they'll be grand. 00:16:01.404 --> 00:16:02.934 One doesn't always have that luxury. 00:16:02.934 --> 00:16:08.064 And when I met you and Terry, it was very obvious to me immediately, oh, these 00:16:08.064 --> 00:16:11.874 people have really massively solid skills. 00:16:11.874 --> 00:16:16.314 I remember encountering, what was that lovely Dark Bay horse that you had again? 00:16:16.464 --> 00:16:16.675 That, 00:16:16.675 --> 00:16:18.925 Lucy Dillon: well, my, that was before I worked there. 00:16:18.954 --> 00:16:19.459 He met. 00:16:20.394 --> 00:16:20.935 Oh, Bruce. 00:16:20.935 --> 00:16:21.114 Yeah. 00:16:21.114 --> 00:16:22.044 The beautiful views. 00:16:22.044 --> 00:16:22.675 Bruce, that was all, 00:16:23.454 --> 00:16:23.664 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, 00:16:23.664 --> 00:16:26.484 Lucy Dillon: he from Warwick Agricultural College. 00:16:26.994 --> 00:16:31.134 When I moved here, I bought him as a 5-year-old 'cause I loved 00:16:31.134 --> 00:16:35.124 his father so much and I knew he stamped all his youngsters. 00:16:35.124 --> 00:16:41.005 And I'd broken, not him, but I'd broken several of his siblings and I, I went back 00:16:41.005 --> 00:16:46.525 to England about a month and a half after I moved here to sit my BHS stage four. 00:16:47.275 --> 00:16:49.555 And then I went to, and I went up to college and was like, you 00:16:49.555 --> 00:16:52.194 know, I'm kind of half looking for a horse and can I try Bruce? 00:16:52.194 --> 00:16:53.604 I don't, you know, see what he's like. 00:16:53.664 --> 00:16:55.824 And he, 'cause he had been sold to the States and then, 00:16:55.854 --> 00:16:56.814 and then it fallen through. 00:16:56.814 --> 00:16:57.745 So he was still there. 00:16:58.224 --> 00:16:59.614 And and I sat up on him. 00:16:59.614 --> 00:17:00.154 He was a fight. 00:17:00.154 --> 00:17:01.174 He was just turning five. 00:17:01.684 --> 00:17:03.644 And I was like, oh yeah, you just feel like St. 00:17:03.644 --> 00:17:05.834 George, I, I'm gonna bring this horse home. 00:17:06.254 --> 00:17:06.614 And I did. 00:17:06.614 --> 00:17:07.724 I had 20 years. 00:17:07.814 --> 00:17:08.294 Gotta love him. 00:17:09.254 --> 00:17:09.764 He was, 00:17:10.904 --> 00:17:12.974 Rupert Isaacson: yeah, when I encountered that horse with you and 00:17:12.974 --> 00:17:16.009 I sat on that horse I took that horse for a trail ride and I was like. 00:17:16.759 --> 00:17:19.489 Whoever produced this horse knows what they're doing. 00:17:19.489 --> 00:17:28.259 I remember there was this magic moment where I just adjusted my seat and brought 00:17:28.259 --> 00:17:33.029 my lower legs back just a little bit, just as a, I don't know, curiosity. 00:17:33.149 --> 00:17:37.829 And he went into this perfect PFA, like this perfect PF and I'm like, 00:17:37.859 --> 00:17:41.759 whoever produced this horse, and I think it's that Lucy lady has done 00:17:41.759 --> 00:17:43.889 such an incredible job with this horse. 00:17:44.129 --> 00:17:48.479 I will, I have complete trust in anything horsey that's 00:17:48.479 --> 00:17:49.919 coming from this, this human. 00:17:50.459 --> 00:17:52.350 And that, of course has been born out. 00:17:52.649 --> 00:17:55.589 And as you said, I like that you made that point. 00:17:55.589 --> 00:17:58.949 If you have trust in your horses, if you have that confidence in your 00:17:58.949 --> 00:18:04.829 horses, it gives you the confidence to go out into unknown situations. 00:18:05.279 --> 00:18:08.069 You know, in the old days we were doing that as cavalry, weren't we? 00:18:08.069 --> 00:18:09.989 And we were going out there to do that. 00:18:10.709 --> 00:18:14.370 Sadly to do harm to our fellow man and now we do it to heal our fellow man. 00:18:14.580 --> 00:18:16.139 But we still go out into the unknown. 00:18:16.769 --> 00:18:21.149 You though did not, you had this, all this solid horse background, but you 00:18:21.149 --> 00:18:25.830 didn't have really a background in working with special needs and you 00:18:25.830 --> 00:18:31.319 know, I know the extreme nature of many of the, particularly the kids that 00:18:31.319 --> 00:18:34.559 were coming out of the Child Vision school, 'cause they weren't just coming 00:18:34.559 --> 00:18:36.279 with blindness or visual impairment. 00:18:36.279 --> 00:18:37.989 They were coming often with severe autism. 00:18:38.199 --> 00:18:40.809 They were coming sometimes with really severe medical conditions and 00:18:40.809 --> 00:18:42.159 feeding tubes and things like this. 00:18:42.489 --> 00:18:46.119 That was all at that stage outside your Ken, and this is really technical stuff. 00:18:46.329 --> 00:18:48.699 Talk to us about the learning curve you went through with that, because I know you 00:18:48.699 --> 00:18:50.139 said, oh, we just got on with it really. 00:18:50.349 --> 00:18:55.479 But that's a, a way of glossing over actually a really step-by-step learning 00:18:55.479 --> 00:18:59.379 curve that I think a lot of people who are just kind of getting into this field 00:18:59.559 --> 00:19:01.119 could really benefit from your wisdom. 00:19:01.329 --> 00:19:01.899 How did you. 00:19:02.304 --> 00:19:06.354 Go from not knowing much about that, but having these solid horse skills and a big 00:19:06.354 --> 00:19:13.794 heart to really learning how to work with this type of technical medical stuff. 00:19:15.214 --> 00:19:19.234 Lucy Dillon: Well, child Vision itself obviously has a two therapists who 00:19:19.234 --> 00:19:23.434 work with the children, so there was always lots of advice and, you know, 00:19:23.434 --> 00:19:28.054 if you had a question, there was always someone to ask how to support somebody. 00:19:28.764 --> 00:19:31.495 And then I suppose I just started reading about it. 00:19:31.495 --> 00:19:35.905 I started Googling, I started watching stuff about therapeutic riding and 00:19:35.905 --> 00:19:39.985 then I that, and then like that, you know, doing the horse boy training and, 00:19:39.985 --> 00:19:45.324 and sort of, I, I just basically read everything I could find and all the 00:19:45.324 --> 00:19:48.685 different things and sort of, and made my own decisions about which things I 00:19:48.685 --> 00:19:51.185 felt maybe looked the right way to go. 00:19:52.569 --> 00:19:59.019 And then I think as well as a horse riding instructor, you're already very good at 00:19:59.319 --> 00:20:03.189 judging a child's emotions because you're not, you know, quite often when you're 00:20:03.189 --> 00:20:06.999 teaching riding one, you've got several of them in front of you, but you're not 00:20:06.999 --> 00:20:09.579 close enough to sort of whispered someone. 00:20:09.579 --> 00:20:10.059 You are right. 00:20:10.149 --> 00:20:10.599 You're right. 00:20:10.599 --> 00:20:14.469 That you've gotta watch their, their body language and, and stuff see that. 00:20:14.469 --> 00:20:17.589 So you're quite good at that, even without realizing it. 00:20:18.399 --> 00:20:22.659 You, you are, I suppose, and then, and then talking to parents as well. 00:20:22.659 --> 00:20:26.349 And, you know, I I, I always ask parents, they're the experts. 00:20:26.709 --> 00:20:29.349 And I suppose, yeah, we just, we all kind of learn together. 00:20:29.619 --> 00:20:32.619 I and I do, when I look back, I think sometimes in the beginning 00:20:32.619 --> 00:20:37.689 maybe I was a bit too sort of behavior led not understanding sort 00:20:37.689 --> 00:20:39.759 of sensory issues quite as well. 00:20:39.759 --> 00:20:40.419 And, and. 00:20:41.109 --> 00:20:45.009 Whereas now I know for a fact now that we are very, and I hope 00:20:45.009 --> 00:20:46.839 now I can relay this to my team. 00:20:46.839 --> 00:20:49.779 As, as you know, I've had a lot of new staff in the last two years. 00:20:50.279 --> 00:20:52.469 This just sort of follow the child. 00:20:52.589 --> 00:20:56.579 And that is actually, you know, it's, it's the, it's the horse boy thing, 00:20:56.579 --> 00:21:00.479 followed the child, but then it's actually a child vision ethos as well. 00:21:01.409 --> 00:21:06.419 It is very much follow the child, be child led and, and lots of 00:21:06.419 --> 00:21:10.109 organizations say they are child led, but child vision actually really is. 00:21:10.199 --> 00:21:13.289 It's very, and interesting enough on the Last Horse Boy training we were 00:21:13.289 --> 00:21:17.559 doing there a month or so ago a lady came to the training and she has a 00:21:17.559 --> 00:21:21.729 significant vision of impair and she's most amazing artist actually look her up. 00:21:21.729 --> 00:21:23.229 Clara Ryder, she does these. 00:21:23.229 --> 00:21:23.499 Clara 00:21:23.799 --> 00:21:25.749 Rupert Isaacson: Ryder, is that Ryder with an I or a y? 00:21:27.044 --> 00:21:29.229 Okay, right now are they talking 00:21:30.039 --> 00:21:30.639 Lucy Dillon: of horses? 00:21:30.639 --> 00:21:31.479 They are stunning. 00:21:31.479 --> 00:21:36.224 Her paintings and she, we were just talking about she wants to volunteer and, 00:21:36.229 --> 00:21:40.499 and I think she's got so much to offer us all in, in, not just in the equine 00:21:40.499 --> 00:21:44.349 unit, but everybody because, you know, she's a young adult who has a significant 00:21:44.349 --> 00:21:46.119 visual impairment and is living her life. 00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:47.529 You know, she's an artist. 00:21:47.949 --> 00:21:50.619 But she was saying about she, what she loves about child vision. 00:21:50.619 --> 00:21:52.569 She wasn't engaged with child vision as a child. 00:21:52.569 --> 00:21:57.819 It wasn't the service she was engaged with that it's so, see, the person first 00:21:58.509 --> 00:22:00.549 don't see the visual impairment first. 00:22:00.549 --> 00:22:04.179 And, and I think perhaps that helped myself and Terry as well, 00:22:04.329 --> 00:22:07.209 because that is the general feeling you get in chart vision. 00:22:07.959 --> 00:22:09.879 And people are treated like, 00:22:10.629 --> 00:22:11.019 Rupert Isaacson: go ahead. 00:22:11.019 --> 00:22:12.129 Sorry, I, I interrupted you. 00:22:12.129 --> 00:22:13.059 Please finish your thought. 00:22:13.389 --> 00:22:14.019 Lucy Dillon: No, that was it. 00:22:14.019 --> 00:22:17.349 Just like, you know, quite often people, particularly people with 00:22:17.349 --> 00:22:20.889 vision impairment, can be treated as if they have an intellectual disability. 00:22:22.360 --> 00:22:23.649 And they don't, they have impairment. 00:22:24.370 --> 00:22:26.439 And whereas in television it's not like that. 00:22:26.439 --> 00:22:28.779 And I remember when I first started working there, like you sort of, 00:22:28.779 --> 00:22:31.209 you'd be like, oh, you know, you might say something to, and it's 00:22:31.209 --> 00:22:35.049 amazing how much in language we use the word, see, can you see this? 00:22:35.049 --> 00:22:39.699 And, and, and like, oh, you look great today and, and look at you on the horse. 00:22:39.849 --> 00:22:41.529 And then you're like, do I say that? 00:22:41.649 --> 00:22:45.069 But actually, yes, you should, because that's language and that's 00:22:45.069 --> 00:22:46.539 the way people use language. 00:22:46.789 --> 00:22:51.919 And that's one thing that's really nice about Child Vision is everybody's treated 00:22:51.979 --> 00:22:54.469 just as, as, as the person that they are. 00:22:55.909 --> 00:22:59.929 Rupert Isaacson: As you say, a lot of a lot of places like to 00:22:59.929 --> 00:23:01.609 think of themselves as child led. 00:23:02.659 --> 00:23:06.289 The ethos of Follow the Child as someone who's had to go through 00:23:06.289 --> 00:23:07.909 that learning curve yourself. 00:23:08.149 --> 00:23:13.069 And let's face it, your average horsey person, male or female. 00:23:15.844 --> 00:23:17.284 We tend to, we're a bossy bunch. 00:23:17.614 --> 00:23:20.374 We're an opinionated bunch, and we sort of have to be a bit 00:23:20.614 --> 00:23:21.904 to do the job that we do it. 00:23:21.904 --> 00:23:26.284 It's part of it because we have to lead, we're in dangerous situations. 00:23:26.284 --> 00:23:27.634 It's, it's built into the culture. 00:23:28.324 --> 00:23:33.754 So I often find that it can be quite a tricky thing to help people 00:23:33.754 --> 00:23:35.524 to understand really how to do it. 00:23:35.794 --> 00:23:39.184 Some people have it as an innate knack, but not everybody. 00:23:40.144 --> 00:23:45.455 What for you, really talk us about your, basically what, your learning curve about 00:23:45.455 --> 00:23:51.304 how you went from not knowing much about that to where you are now, and then what's 00:23:51.304 --> 00:23:57.784 your advice to people and why, why does it really work, do you think, to rather 00:23:57.784 --> 00:23:59.314 than just sort of top down instruction? 00:24:01.624 --> 00:24:04.624 Lucy Dillon: It's all to do with safety. 00:24:06.094 --> 00:24:06.455 Okay. 00:24:06.455 --> 00:24:08.914 I, that's what I personally, that's what I think. 00:24:09.154 --> 00:24:12.304 If, if someone doesn't feel safe, they're not. 00:24:12.889 --> 00:24:14.329 Going to engage with you. 00:24:14.419 --> 00:24:17.029 You know, that applies to all of us, you know? 00:24:17.099 --> 00:24:18.839 If you don't trust someone 00:24:19.589 --> 00:24:19.709 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:24:19.709 --> 00:24:19.739 Or 00:24:20.339 --> 00:24:23.219 Lucy Dillon: particularly like their views or, or feel that they're 00:24:23.219 --> 00:24:26.399 sort of not actually listening to you, you don't trust them. 00:24:27.069 --> 00:24:30.759 And so if you, if you, if a child doesn't trust you, be it 00:24:30.759 --> 00:24:34.749 consciously or subconsciously that you're not gonna get anywhere. 00:24:35.439 --> 00:24:36.819 So you've got to have trust. 00:24:36.819 --> 00:24:38.709 So like, and it, so it works. 00:24:38.769 --> 00:24:41.139 And, and I must admit, when I first started, you know, it was 00:24:41.139 --> 00:24:43.869 sort of like, yeah, the whole lane was get the kid on the horse. 00:24:44.019 --> 00:24:44.769 That's what we do. 00:24:44.769 --> 00:24:46.269 But it's get the kid on. 00:24:46.269 --> 00:24:48.284 Whereas now it's, yeah, whatever, you know, if they 00:24:48.339 --> 00:24:49.419 wanna get on, they wanna get on. 00:24:49.419 --> 00:24:50.829 If they wanna get off, they wanna get off. 00:24:51.459 --> 00:24:55.870 And, and I think possibly when we first started, like you say about 00:24:55.870 --> 00:24:58.509 our environment, when we first started, it was more difficult. 00:24:58.509 --> 00:25:02.715 We were living in a building site, you know, it was, there was you 00:25:02.715 --> 00:25:04.360 know, there was loud noises going on. 00:25:04.360 --> 00:25:06.879 Things they, they finished one building site and then they started on another 00:25:06.879 --> 00:25:08.679 one, the other side of the yard. 00:25:08.729 --> 00:25:14.310 And so like that even leading the horses from the stable to the arena, you had to 00:25:14.310 --> 00:25:18.419 be a bit more controlling with the kids because it wasn't such a safe environment. 00:25:18.810 --> 00:25:22.829 But I do feel particularly in the last I think kind of when we came 00:25:22.829 --> 00:25:28.439 back after COVID more myself and Terry, I think we both kind of 00:25:28.439 --> 00:25:31.559 just were more, this is our unit. 00:25:31.559 --> 00:25:37.229 I, on a side note, I actually took all the horses home for COVID and and that 00:25:37.229 --> 00:25:40.769 was, it was actually a great opportunity to really, really work on all the horse 00:25:40.769 --> 00:25:44.009 boy stuff with them because basically you rode them and, and lunged them and in 00:25:44.009 --> 00:25:46.679 hand with them every day for three months. 00:25:47.199 --> 00:25:50.019 And so it got really, and I, and I do feel that got me really, 00:25:50.019 --> 00:25:52.119 really connected with the horses. 00:25:52.459 --> 00:25:55.909 Now we've got different ones as well since then, and a couple of those have retired 00:25:56.089 --> 00:26:00.229 since then, but they live with me anyway, so that I'm still connected with them. 00:26:00.319 --> 00:26:03.109 There's one of'em I think live forever and she's gonna be one. 00:26:03.169 --> 00:26:05.029 The Guinness Book of Records, you mean she 00:26:05.209 --> 00:26:06.349 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, is that, is that 00:26:06.399 --> 00:26:07.329 Lucy Dillon: echo the gray man? 00:26:07.389 --> 00:26:08.109 Rupert Isaacson: Echo, 00:26:08.409 --> 00:26:08.739 Lucy Dillon: yeah. 00:26:09.099 --> 00:26:10.209 Rupert Isaacson: Oh yeah. 00:26:10.209 --> 00:26:10.239 An amazing horse. 00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:11.109 An amazing horse. 00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:13.429 You must be 40 by now or so. 00:26:14.029 --> 00:26:14.719 Lucy Dillon: 33. 00:26:14.989 --> 00:26:15.349 Well, 00:26:16.009 --> 00:26:16.219 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 00:26:16.339 --> 00:26:16.639 Yeah. 00:26:16.789 --> 00:26:16.999 Wow. 00:26:18.109 --> 00:26:18.259 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 00:26:18.259 --> 00:26:20.504 Rupert Isaacson: That's a testament to your equine wellbeing, I can tell you. 00:26:20.599 --> 00:26:20.899 Yeah. 00:26:21.379 --> 00:26:23.869 Lucy Dillon: And I think that was the time that really convinced me about the 00:26:23.869 --> 00:26:28.729 training of the horses and how, 'cause she was, you know, she was a, what, a 26, 20 00:26:28.729 --> 00:26:33.469 7-year-old horse that we were doing this with, and it completely transformed her. 00:26:33.939 --> 00:26:38.769 But with, with regards to the kids, I think it becomes very clear once 00:26:38.769 --> 00:26:43.719 you start being child led, you can see the parents change towards you. 00:26:43.719 --> 00:26:48.159 You can see the environment change towards you, and you 00:26:48.159 --> 00:26:49.989 see the kid change towards you. 00:26:50.659 --> 00:26:52.789 One of the first kids that I work with. 00:26:53.134 --> 00:26:54.454 Like completely by myself. 00:26:54.485 --> 00:26:56.735 'cause we did have an occupational therapist who was working with us in 00:26:56.735 --> 00:27:00.784 the yard and leading and giving and you know, we learned loads from her loads 00:27:00.784 --> 00:27:05.624 about sensory processing and about just the d child development as well, 00:27:05.624 --> 00:27:07.154 which was really interesting to learn. 00:27:07.154 --> 00:27:09.495 You know, what, what should the child be doing at two, what 00:27:09.495 --> 00:27:10.364 should they be doing at three? 00:27:10.364 --> 00:27:13.724 So you can make comparisons and you can see that following of development 00:27:13.724 --> 00:27:17.714 as well and the development of speech and the development of motor skills 00:27:17.719 --> 00:27:19.184 and, and all that sort of thing. 00:27:19.184 --> 00:27:20.504 And I find that really interesting. 00:27:20.509 --> 00:27:22.724 I, I quite like science and that sort of thing. 00:27:23.114 --> 00:27:27.254 But I, one of the first kids I worked with, like just on my own, this kid 00:27:27.334 --> 00:27:31.985 and, and, and I, he, he just turned up one day and I was the only, I 00:27:31.985 --> 00:27:33.184 was the only member of staff there. 00:27:33.904 --> 00:27:35.224 Nobody told me he was coming. 00:27:36.454 --> 00:27:37.834 A bit of lack of communication. 00:27:37.834 --> 00:27:41.524 So he just arrived and he hadn't had an assessment or anything and which 00:27:41.524 --> 00:27:42.664 was how we'd previously done it. 00:27:42.664 --> 00:27:45.724 So it was like, oh, well, we'll just go up to the arena and see what happens here. 00:27:46.354 --> 00:27:50.214 And he was a child who had, he was about seven or eight, 00:27:50.214 --> 00:27:52.434 seven, quite big for his age. 00:27:52.524 --> 00:27:54.624 Really, really sensory. 00:27:54.674 --> 00:27:58.844 His father had taken time off work to support him more. 00:27:59.054 --> 00:28:01.924 'cause there was a lot of disruptive behavior, a lot of biting, 00:28:02.074 --> 00:28:03.424 kicking and stuff like that. 00:28:04.174 --> 00:28:08.314 And it was, we just went up to the arena and I don't forget, it was so funny. 00:28:08.344 --> 00:28:11.254 He went and the first thing he did was he ran, we used like big 00:28:11.254 --> 00:28:12.844 steps for mounting the horses. 00:28:13.564 --> 00:28:15.184 And Fred, one of our horses just stand there. 00:28:15.184 --> 00:28:17.824 The first thing he did was he ran up the steps and he bit Fred on the neck. 00:28:19.235 --> 00:28:23.165 And, and Fred just sort of turned around and looked at him like, what you that for? 00:28:23.885 --> 00:28:25.205 And I was just like, yeah, whatever. 00:28:25.564 --> 00:28:26.794 And and he ran back down. 00:28:26.794 --> 00:28:29.615 He was running around the arena and, and I could see the dad, 'cause the 00:28:29.620 --> 00:28:33.185 dad was like, you know, the first thing his response was, and he looked at me 00:28:33.185 --> 00:28:35.524 to see what was my response gonna be. 00:28:35.855 --> 00:28:37.325 And I was like, don't worry, he's fine. 00:28:37.325 --> 00:28:38.764 He will come back, he'll come back. 00:28:38.975 --> 00:28:40.085 We'll let him come back. 00:28:40.320 --> 00:28:42.935 And, and as you well know, our arena in that day, those 00:28:42.935 --> 00:28:44.945 days it wasn't quite as safe. 00:28:45.034 --> 00:28:48.335 It was quite near the road and the car park and, and people could 00:28:48.335 --> 00:28:49.804 look over the fence and watch you. 00:28:50.514 --> 00:28:53.364 That's one thing I really don't miss in our new building is 00:28:53.364 --> 00:28:55.044 being by the general public. 00:28:55.465 --> 00:28:58.735 And so, yeah, and then eventually he came back to the horse and then 00:28:58.735 --> 00:28:59.695 we were like, do you wanna get on? 00:29:00.519 --> 00:29:05.439 And we did, and we went for a bit of a walk around the field and he, he 00:29:05.439 --> 00:29:10.029 kept Headbut the horse and his dad was sort of saying, you know, this is, it. 00:29:10.029 --> 00:29:14.379 It's, it's just sort of that overwhelming feel feeling of this. 00:29:15.009 --> 00:29:18.789 And Fred actually kind of led the session really, because every time he headbutted 00:29:18.789 --> 00:29:20.379 Fred on the neck, Fred just stopped. 00:29:21.609 --> 00:29:24.279 And then, and then we were like, well, he'll go again if you stop. 00:29:24.789 --> 00:29:28.029 And so we walked again and then he'd headbut Fred again, and Fred would stop. 00:29:28.629 --> 00:29:29.919 And then we were like, do you wanna get off? 00:29:29.924 --> 00:29:30.474 And he was like that. 00:29:30.729 --> 00:29:33.249 And it was just the first, probably one of the first sessions where 00:29:33.249 --> 00:29:35.289 it was completely led by him. 00:29:35.319 --> 00:29:39.369 I didn't put any 'cause because I had had no time to prepare or 00:29:39.369 --> 00:29:40.659 think about what I was gonna do. 00:29:40.839 --> 00:29:42.369 We were just winging it basically. 00:29:42.759 --> 00:29:44.839 And and it went really, really well. 00:29:44.839 --> 00:29:46.759 And he came for a good few years, that kid. 00:29:47.059 --> 00:29:49.279 And then they, and it just worked really well. 00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.409 And then they got an assistance dog and that worked really well. 00:29:51.439 --> 00:29:53.359 'cause he'd already had the experience with the horses. 00:29:53.809 --> 00:29:57.889 And yeah, I, I suppose that was probably one of the first sessions that made 00:29:57.889 --> 00:30:03.110 me think, actually I need to just follow my instinct doing this now 00:30:03.289 --> 00:30:04.849 rather than what I think I should do. 00:30:05.269 --> 00:30:07.279 I should just follow my instinct. 00:30:08.779 --> 00:30:09.649 Rupert Isaacson: Previously. 00:30:09.749 --> 00:30:14.219 If you had been in a previous incarnation of yourself trying to 00:30:14.219 --> 00:30:18.059 follow what you thought you should do, what would you have thought you 00:30:18.059 --> 00:30:19.919 should have done in that situation? 00:30:21.269 --> 00:30:25.209 Lucy Dillon: Probably try to get him on the horse quicker and get 00:30:25.209 --> 00:30:27.610 him to hold the rope and stuff. 00:30:27.610 --> 00:30:32.320 I, I like to think I was always, even as a horse riding instructor I was 00:30:32.320 --> 00:30:34.389 always quite relaxed with the kids. 00:30:35.169 --> 00:30:37.089 I, we were talking about teaching Pony camp, actually 00:30:37.089 --> 00:30:38.589 pony club there a while ago. 00:30:38.829 --> 00:30:40.389 'Cause my business makes you feel old, doesn't it? 00:30:40.389 --> 00:30:42.579 My new member of staff would've been a child at Pony Club when 00:30:42.579 --> 00:30:43.539 I used to teach Pony Club. 00:30:45.609 --> 00:30:49.119 I was, I always used to sort of, and even in Pony club, I wasn't 00:30:49.119 --> 00:30:52.209 that one that was like, come on, everybody's tech needs to be spotless. 00:30:52.269 --> 00:30:53.859 Isn't the yard spotless and blah, blah, blah? 00:30:54.039 --> 00:30:57.279 So accordingly, I used to sometimes get the kids who weren't those type 00:30:57.279 --> 00:30:59.169 of kids and we'd have a bit of crack. 00:30:59.649 --> 00:31:03.489 And so I don't think, I was never really that super strict 00:31:03.609 --> 00:31:05.409 horse riding instructor anyway. 00:31:05.889 --> 00:31:10.629 My kids would probably say completely differently about, but 00:31:10.669 --> 00:31:15.409 I, I was never, I've never been that super strict horsey person. 00:31:15.919 --> 00:31:21.409 And I do think most, and it's funny when we talk to run instructors who are 00:31:21.409 --> 00:31:25.519 looking into going into this and we talk to them about their own places and their 00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:28.429 own horses and we talk about the Yes. 00:31:28.429 --> 00:31:29.899 Environment, like the horse boy Yes. 00:31:29.899 --> 00:31:32.929 Environment that, you know, if the kid wants to run up and, and the 00:31:32.929 --> 00:31:36.259 ham touching them, they all love the horse of tails, don't they? 00:31:36.499 --> 00:31:36.589 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:31:36.829 --> 00:31:37.009 Lucy Dillon: You know. 00:31:37.444 --> 00:31:38.464 Start touching the horse's tail. 00:31:38.464 --> 00:31:38.974 It's fine. 00:31:39.214 --> 00:31:41.944 And I always say to people, you know, think about your riding school ponies. 00:31:42.064 --> 00:31:44.434 Would you really be worried about someone doing that with them? 00:31:45.364 --> 00:31:48.244 Because actually they, they, they're not, they're probably not in your 00:31:48.244 --> 00:31:50.614 riding school if you're worried about 'em doing that sort of thing, are you? 00:31:50.614 --> 00:31:54.184 And then most of them are like, well, yeah, actually, you know, and, and think 00:31:54.184 --> 00:31:56.614 about, I always say this to people as well, think about your own pony you 00:31:56.614 --> 00:32:01.054 had when you were a kid, you had a yes environment around that pony, didn't you? 00:32:01.054 --> 00:32:02.704 Who climbed up on their pony in the field? 00:32:02.704 --> 00:32:05.944 Who, who, you know, sat down in the stable underneath their pony, while ate 00:32:05.944 --> 00:32:08.884 hay and laid down on the floor and stuff? 00:32:09.334 --> 00:32:13.024 So I, I don't think I've ever been that sort of BHS woman. 00:32:13.714 --> 00:32:16.669 Maybe that's 'cause I didn't come through the sort of pony pump and 00:32:16.969 --> 00:32:19.669 the, as a child, I dunno, I'm done. 00:32:20.449 --> 00:32:21.349 Maybe I'm just lazy. 00:32:24.019 --> 00:32:26.029 Rupert Isaacson: The, the follow the child thing of course goes 00:32:26.029 --> 00:32:27.079 much deeper than that though. 00:32:27.079 --> 00:32:27.859 Like when. 00:32:28.924 --> 00:32:31.954 I'm doing it for example, because, you know, I, I was taught 00:32:31.954 --> 00:32:33.634 that really by Temple Grandin. 00:32:34.234 --> 00:32:34.564 Okay. 00:32:34.564 --> 00:32:38.314 I had a sort of my temperament, like yours is more that way anyway. 00:32:38.314 --> 00:32:41.824 But, you know, she was the one who really explained to me, Rupert, if 00:32:41.824 --> 00:32:44.944 you're going to reach somebody who doesn't really want to communicate, 00:32:45.484 --> 00:32:51.034 I autom, you know, self ism, then you have to really meet them where they are. 00:32:51.184 --> 00:32:55.294 You gotta find out what interests them and really follow those obsessional interests. 00:32:55.534 --> 00:32:58.774 And of course, in my early days with horse boy, with my son, I mean, 00:32:58.774 --> 00:33:01.684 I had, I could do that because I had the, the leisure to do that. 00:33:02.134 --> 00:33:09.704 And then of course as we began to build new trails, the ranch we had the luxury 00:33:09.704 --> 00:33:14.264 of working usually with very, very small groups or one-to-one or so on. 00:33:15.134 --> 00:33:17.204 You guys didn't have that luxury. 00:33:17.294 --> 00:33:22.424 And there was a necessity of delivering services to many, many kids. 00:33:23.324 --> 00:33:24.734 Often at the same time. 00:33:25.304 --> 00:33:28.964 And I was often impressed at how you guys managed to take 00:33:28.964 --> 00:33:33.104 the, follow the child ethos into that more institutional setting. 00:33:33.374 --> 00:33:38.564 Can you tell us, I, I think it's really useful for a lot of people who are 00:33:38.564 --> 00:33:41.774 going to this as a career now, and you yourself are now teaching people how 00:33:41.774 --> 00:33:45.974 to do this as a career when someone is gonna follow the child in that way. 00:33:46.964 --> 00:33:51.674 But yeah, they don't have the luxury of maybe one-to-one, they don't 00:33:51.674 --> 00:33:53.774 have the luxury of a lot of time. 00:33:55.754 --> 00:33:58.274 How, how, how are we gonna do that? 00:34:00.974 --> 00:34:04.969 Lucy Dillon: I suppose, I think one thing we always make really clear to parents 00:34:04.969 --> 00:34:11.329 or, or the caregiver or whoever comes with a child is, you know, yes, the get 00:34:11.329 --> 00:34:16.999 on the horse, it's a bonus, but that's not the B end or an end all of this. 00:34:17.509 --> 00:34:19.159 And I think that's a really important thing to. 00:34:19.564 --> 00:34:20.614 Get into your head. 00:34:21.754 --> 00:34:24.784 Even just being with a horse can help. 00:34:25.444 --> 00:34:31.474 And so we, it is hard sometimes in, you know, we run on half an hour slots. 00:34:31.684 --> 00:34:31.924 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:34:32.314 --> 00:34:36.214 Lucy Dillon: Now we run them on 45 minute slots, but they're half an hour sessions. 00:34:36.214 --> 00:34:39.064 But to allow part, partly the fact that we're, 'cause we're in the city center, 00:34:39.064 --> 00:34:41.614 it allows people to like, get stuck in traffic and not have a freak out 00:34:41.614 --> 00:34:43.354 that they're gonna be 10 minutes late. 00:34:43.814 --> 00:34:49.189 But I, I dunno really, I suppose just, I just think the whole environment 00:34:50.029 --> 00:34:53.359 now creates that environment anyway. 00:34:54.409 --> 00:34:57.769 And that probably possibly helps, I think we see, follow the child 00:34:57.769 --> 00:34:59.749 bit most with the school groups. 00:34:59.839 --> 00:35:01.489 So we see a huge number of school groups. 00:35:02.284 --> 00:35:06.334 The end of this academic year, I have seen 27 different school classes. 00:35:06.424 --> 00:35:09.514 So that's six kids for six weeks and they come for like an hour. 00:35:09.724 --> 00:35:12.604 To be honest, most of the time we don't fill the full hour. 00:35:12.634 --> 00:35:13.294 'cause that's a lot. 00:35:13.294 --> 00:35:16.654 Most of these kids are, they're primary school age, so that, that's a long 00:35:16.654 --> 00:35:20.254 time for a primary school kid to focus. 00:35:20.854 --> 00:35:21.034 Yeah. 00:35:21.084 --> 00:35:24.804 And so with the school groups we have, there'd be six kids and there'd 00:35:24.804 --> 00:35:29.514 be generally three instructors, if not four, there in the group. 00:35:30.864 --> 00:35:35.484 And so you have an idea of what you're gonna do with the group, but we, 00:35:35.514 --> 00:35:38.574 it's very much, and even in the old yard, we used to do this, you could 00:35:38.574 --> 00:35:40.284 shut the gate at the top of the yard. 00:35:40.704 --> 00:35:42.054 If a group came in, you could shut. 00:35:42.114 --> 00:35:44.154 We had like a little picket fence you could kind of shut 00:35:44.154 --> 00:35:45.594 and the yard was closed in then. 00:35:46.494 --> 00:35:50.034 And you make your environment safe and they'll come in and you can then just 00:35:50.034 --> 00:35:53.214 say to the SNAs and the teacher relax. 00:35:53.304 --> 00:35:54.054 They can't go anywhere. 00:35:54.054 --> 00:35:56.814 Doesn't matter what they do with the horses. 00:35:57.114 --> 00:36:00.594 These horses are not, these horses are trained for their job, you know, because 00:36:00.894 --> 00:36:03.834 particularly actually being in the city center, a lot of people's perception 00:36:03.834 --> 00:36:05.724 of horses is, is quite different. 00:36:06.124 --> 00:36:09.384 So you sort of see the teachers and stuff like panicking as the kids 00:36:09.384 --> 00:36:12.534 will come running in at a hundred miles an hour into the horses. 00:36:12.834 --> 00:36:16.344 So you, you've set it up then with the teachers and the SNAs. 00:36:16.344 --> 00:36:19.104 And now actually what I do is I, I actually send them all the information 00:36:19.104 --> 00:36:24.414 before they come and there's information about the problem and the solution, the 00:36:24.414 --> 00:36:28.224 cortisol and, and the oxytocin and I, and there's information about what's 00:36:28.224 --> 00:36:29.814 expected from them and they get there. 00:36:30.534 --> 00:36:31.434 Hopefully they read it. 00:36:31.494 --> 00:36:33.924 I don't know if they do, but I send it anyway. 00:36:34.284 --> 00:36:36.704 And so the school groups come in and they come in. 00:36:36.704 --> 00:36:38.924 They're like a whirlwind when they come in, these kids. 00:36:39.164 --> 00:36:41.624 But we actually almost, you don't encourage it, but 00:36:41.624 --> 00:36:42.974 we do almost encourage it. 00:36:43.814 --> 00:36:48.554 And then you, you just, that when a kid comes in and they know they're 00:36:48.554 --> 00:36:51.554 allowed to come in and run up the hay, which they all absolutely love. 00:36:51.764 --> 00:36:53.774 It was gas when we moved into the new building. 00:36:54.434 --> 00:36:56.174 We have a community group that come every week. 00:36:56.174 --> 00:37:00.044 And these, this will be a parents group of parents, children of 00:37:00.044 --> 00:37:01.514 autism, huge community group. 00:37:01.514 --> 00:37:04.424 There's, there's about 40 families in it and it's in ringed, which would be 00:37:04.424 --> 00:37:05.834 right in the city center of Dublin. 00:37:06.584 --> 00:37:09.224 And they came in and one of the first things they said to me when they came 00:37:09.224 --> 00:37:11.144 into the new state was, where's the hey? 00:37:11.744 --> 00:37:12.824 I was like, it's there behind you. 00:37:13.364 --> 00:37:16.394 I was, thank God, because that's all they like doing is climbing up the hay. 00:37:16.874 --> 00:37:21.314 So we create this environment where the kids can just kind of, you know, just 00:37:21.314 --> 00:37:26.834 run around and be, and it's just have fun and then you can very quickly see, 00:37:27.014 --> 00:37:30.224 well, which is your kid that, you know, you need to get on that horse and give 00:37:30.224 --> 00:37:31.934 loads of movement to, which is your kid. 00:37:31.934 --> 00:37:34.244 You're gonna actually, let's get this one up last. 00:37:34.244 --> 00:37:37.064 'cause he needs to watch everybody else get on first. 00:37:37.964 --> 00:37:40.809 And, and then, or even one who actually, do you know what, maybe one 00:37:40.809 --> 00:37:44.409 instructor might just take that kid off by themselves 'cause this is a bit 00:37:44.409 --> 00:37:45.969 overwhelming what's going on around here. 00:37:45.969 --> 00:37:48.039 They might be better just going off by themselves and 00:37:48.039 --> 00:37:49.149 doing something really quiet. 00:37:49.659 --> 00:37:54.459 And so that's how I, I suppose that kind of sums up child led that even if 00:37:54.459 --> 00:37:57.819 they're coming in a group of six, you're still looking at them all individually. 00:37:58.719 --> 00:38:03.029 And some will, so for example we had a school group on Thursday and now 00:38:03.029 --> 00:38:04.409 actually only three of them came. 00:38:04.739 --> 00:38:06.989 And two of them were really keen on what we were doing. 00:38:06.989 --> 00:38:10.749 We were finding we'd found the horse's names on our trail, like a piece 00:38:10.749 --> 00:38:11.859 of paper with the horse's name on. 00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.469 And then we were going back to the arena 'cause it was raining. 00:38:14.829 --> 00:38:18.599 And on the arena side was the letters and they had to find the letters to spell it. 00:38:18.689 --> 00:38:22.169 Now, one of the little ones, it was obviously he wasn't gonna want to do 00:38:22.169 --> 00:38:25.499 that, so, but he was loving himself outside there, so they just stayed 00:38:25.499 --> 00:38:27.719 outside while the others came back in. 00:38:27.749 --> 00:38:31.619 So I suppose that kind of means being child led, not having an agenda. 00:38:31.679 --> 00:38:33.659 Having an agenda, but not sticking to it. 00:38:34.319 --> 00:38:35.069 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 00:38:35.179 --> 00:38:39.229 I think that's, we, we have to sort of have these plans to go in feeling 00:38:39.409 --> 00:38:42.709 regulated ourselves, knowing that we're gonna go into a dysregulated 00:38:42.709 --> 00:38:47.689 environment, but we are ready to abandon that plan at the drop of a hat to 00:38:47.689 --> 00:38:49.519 just follow what that kid wants to do. 00:38:50.059 --> 00:38:54.469 And I, I do definitely see that some people adapt to that really naturally. 00:38:54.709 --> 00:38:58.129 Other people struggle with it and need to go through kind of a, a 00:38:58.129 --> 00:39:03.139 learning curve, but if one doesn't do it, it's just not gonna work. 00:39:03.429 --> 00:39:05.949 Particularly with people that don't follow cognitively, don't 00:39:05.949 --> 00:39:07.479 yet follow top down instruction. 00:39:07.779 --> 00:39:11.109 You know, you can, it's like if I don't learn Chinese, you can yell 00:39:11.109 --> 00:39:13.359 at me in Chinese, but I'm still not gonna understand Chinese. 00:39:13.699 --> 00:39:16.549 And, and yelling loud is not gonna make me understand it anymore. 00:39:16.999 --> 00:39:21.519 You said earlier though, also having confidence in your horse and some 00:39:21.519 --> 00:39:22.779 of that is of course, training. 00:39:23.109 --> 00:39:25.869 But a lot of it is the wellbeing of the horse. 00:39:25.899 --> 00:39:26.894 And when I first. 00:39:27.584 --> 00:39:32.834 Was doing trainings and even actually before I was doing trainings and the horse 00:39:32.834 --> 00:39:36.974 boy had just been published and I was going round doing a lot of fundraisers 00:39:36.974 --> 00:39:39.344 for a lot of therapeutic riding places. 00:39:39.554 --> 00:39:44.024 And I realized quite quickly that a lot of the horses didn't have much wellbeing. 00:39:44.384 --> 00:39:49.904 That they were quiet but stiff, so not so happy. 00:39:50.714 --> 00:39:55.454 And I remember thinking, how can this horse who doesn't really 00:39:55.454 --> 00:39:58.844 have wellbeing, give wellbeing when it doesn't have it to give? 00:39:59.244 --> 00:40:04.704 And by then of course, I knew about the necessity of oxytocin and of horse 00:40:04.794 --> 00:40:08.544 going in sort of soft collection so that the hips can rock and the kid 00:40:08.544 --> 00:40:11.394 so that they will get the oxytocin, communication hormone and speak. 00:40:11.574 --> 00:40:13.344 That had been explained to me by then. 00:40:13.554 --> 00:40:16.914 So I knew that no horse is gonna be able to do that unless they also have 00:40:17.094 --> 00:40:19.284 a kind of wellbeing in their body. 00:40:19.644 --> 00:40:23.514 So you walked into the situation there, you and Terry. 00:40:23.929 --> 00:40:28.879 At Child Vision and you had to create this equine wellbeing, and you had 00:40:28.879 --> 00:40:34.839 to do it in a way that wasn't optimal in terms of the environment because 00:40:34.839 --> 00:40:35.769 you're in the middle of a city. 00:40:36.259 --> 00:40:37.969 So you had limited options there. 00:40:38.389 --> 00:40:43.339 You guys are, were very quickly one of the gold standards, in my 00:40:43.639 --> 00:40:45.619 opinion, for equine wellbeing. 00:40:45.949 --> 00:40:48.589 How, and you now show other people how to do it. 00:40:48.799 --> 00:40:51.499 This is super important for people that are gonna go into the industry. 00:40:52.129 --> 00:40:56.559 Talk to us about equine wellbeing, what it means for you, mental, physical emotional. 00:40:56.769 --> 00:40:59.679 What do you do to ensure that? 00:40:59.919 --> 00:41:02.469 And particularly what do you do to ensure that when you are in the middle 00:41:02.469 --> 00:41:04.929 of the city, can you talk to us? 00:41:04.929 --> 00:41:05.169 Yeah. 00:41:05.964 --> 00:41:10.359 Lucy Dillon: I, I think when you make your horses feel good 00:41:11.229 --> 00:41:13.239 about themselves physically 00:41:13.629 --> 00:41:13.989 Rupert Isaacson: mm-hmm. 00:41:14.499 --> 00:41:16.869 Lucy Dillon: Feel good, you know, it's the same with us, isn't it? 00:41:16.874 --> 00:41:17.164 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:41:17.799 --> 00:41:18.309 Lucy Dillon: Feel good. 00:41:18.459 --> 00:41:21.999 If you physically feel good, you mentally feel that, you know, that's, 00:41:21.999 --> 00:41:23.214 and I'm, I'm probably even more, 00:41:23.214 --> 00:41:24.189 Rupert Isaacson: it has to start in the body. 00:41:24.189 --> 00:41:24.669 I agree. 00:41:25.599 --> 00:41:25.659 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 00:41:25.659 --> 00:41:28.839 And I think probably even more so for, for a horse. 00:41:28.929 --> 00:41:29.169 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:41:29.749 --> 00:41:32.389 Lucy Dillon: And I know, and I am really aware of our environment. 00:41:32.579 --> 00:41:36.209 And so like that, the new building has been fantastic 'cause it's all super 00:41:36.209 --> 00:41:39.719 duper and the horses can all talk to each other over the walls of their stables. 00:41:40.339 --> 00:41:43.039 Or the one thing we've realized now is when you give one horse a 00:41:43.039 --> 00:41:44.479 treat, everybody else can see it. 00:41:44.809 --> 00:41:48.649 So, so we're cutting down on the treats at the moment. 00:41:49.039 --> 00:41:54.469 But yeah, they, they, and, and actually even the old stables, the way the stables, 00:41:54.469 --> 00:41:58.079 'cause they were very old buildings, very beautiful like, old coach house. 00:41:58.289 --> 00:41:58.619 Yeah. 00:41:58.619 --> 00:42:01.679 And, and the stables, they were all very beautiful looking weren't they? 00:42:01.679 --> 00:42:02.159 And everything. 00:42:02.429 --> 00:42:02.489 Yeah. 00:42:02.609 --> 00:42:05.249 From visual impairment point of view, they were really not very good. 00:42:05.609 --> 00:42:08.749 But even there, even in those stables, each horse could 00:42:08.749 --> 00:42:10.279 actually touch its name, but. 00:42:10.804 --> 00:42:11.194 Rupert Isaacson: Hmm. 00:42:11.434 --> 00:42:12.309 Lucy Dillon: Which was important. 00:42:13.049 --> 00:42:19.109 I think even like, I, I'm a great advocate of the riding school pony and, and pe. 00:42:19.109 --> 00:42:22.019 Their riding school ponies get so much stick and people who have 00:42:22.019 --> 00:42:25.049 them get so much stick for, not like, oh, the riding school pony. 00:42:25.049 --> 00:42:25.589 Wanna look after 'em. 00:42:25.589 --> 00:42:27.059 I wouldn't give my horse to a riding school. 00:42:27.359 --> 00:42:28.979 I gave my pony to a riding school. 00:42:29.339 --> 00:42:29.969 I have a little pony. 00:42:29.969 --> 00:42:30.179 Depends 00:42:30.179 --> 00:42:31.019 Rupert Isaacson: on the riding school. 00:42:31.019 --> 00:42:32.159 Depends on the riding school. 00:42:32.159 --> 00:42:32.369 Yeah. 00:42:32.549 --> 00:42:32.729 Yeah, 00:42:32.819 --> 00:42:33.029 Lucy Dillon: yeah. 00:42:33.239 --> 00:42:35.699 But I gave my pony to a fabulous woman up in me. 00:42:35.789 --> 00:42:38.224 In You've met Rita and Marita her daughter. 00:42:38.224 --> 00:42:38.464 Yeah. 00:42:39.029 --> 00:42:40.499 And 'cause crunchy. 00:42:40.529 --> 00:42:43.949 He's been up there for three years because I know she looks after them really well. 00:42:43.949 --> 00:42:47.279 Yes, they work hard, but they look after them really well. 00:42:47.279 --> 00:42:48.479 They have great crack with them. 00:42:48.479 --> 00:42:51.839 They have great variety in their life and they live in gangs. 00:42:52.259 --> 00:42:56.069 And actually that's what horses want to do is live in gangs. 00:42:56.339 --> 00:42:58.469 That's one of the biggest things with horses. 00:42:58.809 --> 00:43:03.099 So for our horses in Child Vision, I think the way we made them happier 00:43:03.099 --> 00:43:05.244 was, the big thing was make them feel really good in their body. 00:43:06.624 --> 00:43:10.664 And you see it now with who's, well bull, who's still in the 00:43:10.664 --> 00:43:12.134 service, who's a fabulous horse. 00:43:12.134 --> 00:43:13.454 He'll be 24 this year. 00:43:14.114 --> 00:43:14.234 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:43:14.234 --> 00:43:17.984 Lucy Dillon: And he gets lunch three times a week and he loves it. 00:43:18.044 --> 00:43:20.804 Like he's waiting for you to tell him to do a walk counter. 00:43:20.864 --> 00:43:22.274 Like sometimes he'll just do it anyway. 00:43:22.274 --> 00:43:23.954 And you're like, no, I didn't actually ask you to do that. 00:43:23.959 --> 00:43:31.644 But and, but even and, and Ian hand work and, and they, I, I, I dunno. 00:43:31.649 --> 00:43:38.754 I suppose if you look after your horses nicely and you have consistency with 00:43:38.754 --> 00:43:42.624 them, consistency in their handling, consistency in their routines, you 00:43:42.624 --> 00:43:45.414 make them, you train them in such a way that they feel good about 00:43:45.414 --> 00:43:48.924 themselves, you feed them properly so they have the energy to do their job. 00:43:49.854 --> 00:43:50.034 Mm-hmm. 00:43:50.674 --> 00:43:52.444 And they are sociable with each other. 00:43:52.534 --> 00:43:53.434 That's the big thing. 00:43:53.434 --> 00:43:56.194 So I think the thing with our horses, yes, they are in the city center. 00:43:56.194 --> 00:43:56.464 Yes. 00:43:56.464 --> 00:43:57.604 They don't have turnout. 00:43:58.239 --> 00:44:00.429 So we have like, the way the new stables have been designed, 00:44:00.429 --> 00:44:04.029 we have a little playpen for them that's, it's not that big. 00:44:04.209 --> 00:44:07.299 It sort of wraps around the back of the stables, but they also, then it links 00:44:07.299 --> 00:44:10.509 to some of the stables have windows that we can open, and then if someone's in 00:44:10.509 --> 00:44:12.939 the playpen, they can actually put their head in the window and talk to three 00:44:12.939 --> 00:44:14.139 or four of them through the window. 00:44:14.709 --> 00:44:18.129 But they don't have big turnout, so they, so they have to, we rent land 00:44:18.129 --> 00:44:22.149 and they go on holiday four times a year to just have a week of nobody. 00:44:22.149 --> 00:44:23.289 So they're going to Easter again. 00:44:23.289 --> 00:44:24.459 They were out at Christmas. 00:44:24.789 --> 00:44:26.709 But they're very tight little herd. 00:44:26.709 --> 00:44:29.379 I think that's another thing that's really important for horses is that they 00:44:29.379 --> 00:44:32.499 are, they have their gang just like us. 00:44:32.499 --> 00:44:33.009 You know? 00:44:33.369 --> 00:44:34.329 We need our gang. 00:44:34.329 --> 00:44:35.949 Like my, you know, I'm, I'm blessed. 00:44:35.949 --> 00:44:36.009 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:44:36.009 --> 00:44:39.609 Stability, stability within the herd is a wonderful thing if one can have it. 00:44:39.609 --> 00:44:39.939 Yeah. 00:44:40.269 --> 00:44:40.839 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 00:44:40.929 --> 00:44:44.019 And and they are, they're a really tight little gang now. 00:44:44.019 --> 00:44:49.239 I've just added two new into it, so I'm waiting till after they've had 00:44:49.239 --> 00:44:52.299 their Easter holidays before I start using those two in group sessions. 00:44:52.929 --> 00:44:55.719 Because they'll be in the gang properly by the time they've had 00:44:55.719 --> 00:44:57.039 a week in the field altogether. 00:44:57.399 --> 00:44:57.549 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:44:57.599 --> 00:45:00.539 Lucy Dillon: They have met, they've all met each other, but they haven't, you 00:45:00.539 --> 00:45:03.299 know, bonded as the, the gang as such. 00:45:03.509 --> 00:45:07.229 So yeah, I suppose we just, and when I did notice that when I first started 00:45:07.229 --> 00:45:10.499 working at Child Vision, and Terry hadn't long started there either. 00:45:10.739 --> 00:45:11.909 Some of the horses weren't great. 00:45:12.029 --> 00:45:12.119 Mm-hmm. 00:45:13.289 --> 00:45:14.909 They weren't suited for that job. 00:45:14.909 --> 00:45:18.629 They didn't like the high volume of people coming up to 'em every day. 00:45:18.629 --> 00:45:22.019 They didn't like having another horse really close to them. 00:45:22.289 --> 00:45:24.029 And some, and that's, you know, that's horses. 00:45:24.029 --> 00:45:25.349 Some do just, some don't. 00:45:25.439 --> 00:45:29.099 You know, I may here at home and she just wants to do her job and 00:45:29.099 --> 00:45:29.879 then put me back in the field. 00:45:29.879 --> 00:45:30.539 Leave me alone please. 00:45:31.344 --> 00:45:35.244 She's not that fuss around, fuss around, fuss around type of horse. 00:45:35.274 --> 00:45:38.394 Whereas I have another pony who actually has now joined Child Vision. 00:45:38.394 --> 00:45:40.824 My daughter's pony 'cause she's at university. 00:45:41.064 --> 00:45:44.154 I knew one when she's got too busy to keep riding him. 00:45:44.154 --> 00:45:45.954 He was the one every time you went to the field, he's like, 00:45:45.954 --> 00:45:47.544 hello, can you bring me in please? 00:45:48.124 --> 00:45:49.774 So I knew he'd be brilliant for child vision. 00:45:49.774 --> 00:45:55.304 He loves it, all the attention and, and he loves the other horses and being 00:45:55.304 --> 00:45:56.834 close to other horses all the time. 00:45:57.314 --> 00:46:00.134 So yeah, I suppose you just, you've gotta have the right horses 00:46:00.134 --> 00:46:01.724 in there as well for the job. 00:46:02.769 --> 00:46:04.869 Rupert Isaacson: You do, but you, you've actually elucidated 00:46:04.869 --> 00:46:06.069 quite a good structure there. 00:46:06.069 --> 00:46:08.229 So you've said, okay, your horses get lunged. 00:46:08.679 --> 00:46:12.789 You know, so we know that's gonna help them feel good in the back because that's 00:46:12.789 --> 00:46:16.239 where the, that's where the monkeys are sitting is up there on that back. 00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:16.249 Yeah. 00:46:16.299 --> 00:46:20.049 And I remember bull, you know, you, you, you, he's one of my favorite horses, 00:46:20.049 --> 00:46:22.089 boy horses partly 'cause he's so pretty. 00:46:22.089 --> 00:46:24.349 'cause he's such a lovely pie ball SKU ball. 00:46:24.379 --> 00:46:30.169 But also, I remember watching you guys transform him from a horse with 00:46:30.169 --> 00:46:36.229 a very sore back and, and the attitude that would go with that to a horse 00:46:36.229 --> 00:46:41.609 that felt really good in his body and whose back issues were always 00:46:41.609 --> 00:46:44.819 just managed and assuaged and yogurt. 00:46:44.879 --> 00:46:46.469 And I really watched you guys do that. 00:46:46.469 --> 00:46:48.059 And, and you, you also talked about echo. 00:46:48.269 --> 00:46:48.929 You know, who. 00:46:49.664 --> 00:46:53.834 I first encountered in her mid late twenties and sort of went on 00:46:53.834 --> 00:46:56.024 to be this kind of super horse. 00:46:56.204 --> 00:46:58.244 'cause you effectively reverse aged her. 00:46:58.454 --> 00:47:02.144 So you lunge them, you work them in hand, you have an integrated herd. 00:47:02.324 --> 00:47:03.554 They can all touch each other. 00:47:03.554 --> 00:47:09.104 They have playpens and then you also rotate them out to the country regularly 00:47:09.914 --> 00:47:15.464 so that they can get a good break, eat grass in their herd, and then come back. 00:47:16.244 --> 00:47:19.634 I think it's really good for people to have an idea of 00:47:19.634 --> 00:47:20.774 that sort of structure, right? 00:47:20.774 --> 00:47:26.594 Because often within the horsey world there's, you know, a thousand conflicting 00:47:26.624 --> 00:47:30.104 opinions and people often aren't trained communicators, so they're often quite 00:47:30.104 --> 00:47:32.684 vague about what it is they're doing. 00:47:32.894 --> 00:47:35.954 And you have to, even my people who've mentored me, I've had to 00:47:35.954 --> 00:47:39.494 really watch them and kind of dissect and pick apart what they're doing. 00:47:40.004 --> 00:47:42.764 Because they often can't quite communicate their structure. 00:47:43.274 --> 00:47:47.984 But I, I know that you and Terry have these really good structures and it's 00:47:47.984 --> 00:47:52.334 useful for people who are going into the field with this because as you and 00:47:52.334 --> 00:47:57.344 I both know, you can't really, a horse can't really have a bad day when you've 00:47:57.344 --> 00:48:00.104 got a very vulnerable kid up there. 00:48:00.344 --> 00:48:02.774 It's a bit more like going into battle with your horse. 00:48:02.774 --> 00:48:04.244 It's for that hour. 00:48:04.934 --> 00:48:07.064 You and that horse have to be total colleagues. 00:48:08.354 --> 00:48:10.334 I like also what you just said about riding skills. 00:48:10.334 --> 00:48:13.454 I remember one time you had a go at me for saying, Rupert, you s slag off riding 00:48:13.454 --> 00:48:18.434 schools and you know, and I don't slag off riding schools, but what I do do 00:48:18.434 --> 00:48:23.744 is I point out that if they're not well run, horses do suffer and kids suffer. 00:48:24.194 --> 00:48:26.744 And I think we've all experienced that. 00:48:27.254 --> 00:48:28.964 And it used to be. 00:48:29.624 --> 00:48:33.824 I think it's getting a lot better now, but it used to be that that was a bit 00:48:33.824 --> 00:48:36.524 of an accepted norm when we were kids. 00:48:36.524 --> 00:48:40.304 So you noticed when you went to a really good writing school and 00:48:40.304 --> 00:48:43.064 there were all kinds of reasons for that, economically and so on. 00:48:43.214 --> 00:48:45.884 But things have gotten a lot better and perhaps they've gotten a lot better 'cause 00:48:45.884 --> 00:48:49.694 people like you were coming along and showing people how to make them better. 00:48:50.354 --> 00:48:52.424 We also know that riding schools are kind of in trouble. 00:48:52.574 --> 00:48:53.294 It's difficult. 00:48:53.294 --> 00:48:57.584 It's getting more and more difficult for people to make a living, running them. 00:48:57.974 --> 00:49:01.034 And if we don't have them, how are people gonna learn to ride? 00:49:02.414 --> 00:49:07.934 You have a kind of outreach to the community through child 00:49:07.934 --> 00:49:10.904 Vision, where to some degree you operate a little bit like that. 00:49:10.964 --> 00:49:12.644 You are showing people. 00:49:13.004 --> 00:49:14.984 How to ride and interact with horses. 00:49:15.384 --> 00:49:20.484 Do you feel that it's now time for the e for the therapeutic industry in, in 00:49:20.484 --> 00:49:25.644 a funny way to go back to the sort of sport industry and the riding school 00:49:25.644 --> 00:49:32.664 industry and, and say, actually, look, we've evolved technologies here for equine 00:49:32.664 --> 00:49:38.034 and human wellbeing that can benefit you all over there in the commercial sector. 00:49:38.990 --> 00:49:41.830 If you're in the equine assisted field, or if you're considering 00:49:41.830 --> 00:49:45.750 a career in the equine assisted field, you might want to consider 00:49:45.820 --> 00:49:50.090 taking one of our three neuroscience backed equine assisted programs. 00:49:50.150 --> 00:49:55.730 Horseboy method, now established for 20 years, is the original 00:49:56.325 --> 00:50:02.635 Equine assisted program specifically designed for autism, mentored by and 00:50:02.635 --> 00:50:05.305 developed in conjunction with Dr. 00:50:05.305 --> 00:50:08.185 Temple Grandin and many other neuroscientists. 00:50:08.525 --> 00:50:11.795 We work in the saddle with younger children. 00:50:12.290 --> 00:50:17.240 Helping them create oxytocin in their bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain. 00:50:17.900 --> 00:50:19.340 It works incredibly well. 00:50:19.340 --> 00:50:21.060 It's now in about 40 countries. 00:50:21.770 --> 00:50:22.520 Check it out. 00:50:23.200 --> 00:50:27.350 If you're working without horses, you might want to look at movement 00:50:27.360 --> 00:50:30.730 method, which gets a very, very similar effect, but can also be 00:50:30.730 --> 00:50:32.480 applied in schools, in homes. 00:50:32.680 --> 00:50:37.670 If you're working with families, you can give them really tangible exercises to do 00:50:37.670 --> 00:50:39.210 at home that will create neuroplasticity. 00:50:40.565 --> 00:50:41.845 when they're not with you. 00:50:42.355 --> 00:50:45.795 Finally, we have taquine equine integration. 00:50:46.155 --> 00:50:48.775 If you know anything about our programs, you know that we need a 00:50:48.775 --> 00:50:52.775 really high standard of horsemanship in order to create the oxytocin 00:50:52.805 --> 00:50:57.095 in the body of the person that we're working with, child or adult. 00:50:57.535 --> 00:51:00.875 So, this means we need to train a horse in collection, but this 00:51:00.895 --> 00:51:05.135 also has a really beneficial effect on the horse's well being. 00:51:05.335 --> 00:51:09.625 And it also ends your time conflict, where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how 00:51:09.625 --> 00:51:12.925 am I going to condition my horses and maintain them and give them what they 00:51:12.925 --> 00:51:16.020 need, as well as Serving my clients. 00:51:16.260 --> 00:51:20.760 Takine equine integration aimed at a more adult client base 00:51:21.090 --> 00:51:22.740 absolutely gives you this. 00:51:22.850 --> 00:51:27.320 Have you noticed a bit of an interplay now going on as we, as the horse industry 00:51:27.320 --> 00:51:33.380 evolves this way with the more sport oriented side, beginning to look now 00:51:33.530 --> 00:51:35.660 a bit more to the therapeutic side? 00:51:36.110 --> 00:51:37.250 What, what are you noticing? 00:51:37.730 --> 00:51:38.930 Lucy Dillon: I think so. 00:51:38.930 --> 00:51:42.810 I think that I think therapeutic writing is the good news story 00:51:42.810 --> 00:51:44.400 that the equine industry needs. 00:51:44.640 --> 00:51:44.880 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:51:45.880 --> 00:51:49.180 Lucy Dillon: And, and actually I was just talking to someone yesterday about that. 00:51:49.300 --> 00:51:54.520 Now just to give a bit of background, our beautiful new indoor arena is 00:51:54.580 --> 00:51:59.220 in memory of a young man called Jack Bromhead, whose father is Henry 00:51:59.220 --> 00:52:01.860 De Bromhead, who's one of the most successful trainers in this country. 00:52:01.860 --> 00:52:06.210 And Jack was very tragically killed in an accident three and a half years ago, 00:52:06.450 --> 00:52:08.550 pony racing on the beach down in Kerry. 00:52:09.630 --> 00:52:14.100 And so family and friends of the de Bromhead raise the capital 00:52:14.100 --> 00:52:18.720 fund to build our center, and it's named the Jack de Bromhead Center. 00:52:19.280 --> 00:52:23.420 And one of the other things that we hope comes outta this tragic, 00:52:23.480 --> 00:52:28.670 tragic story is that we get a relationship with the racing industry. 00:52:29.060 --> 00:52:32.150 And it's, and it not getting a relationship with the industry, it's 00:52:32.150 --> 00:52:36.800 bringing this sector and what we do to the racing industry because 00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:38.660 Henry is such a high profile. 00:52:39.200 --> 00:52:43.550 Figure in Ireland, he, you know, and he's also, the, the goodwill 00:52:43.550 --> 00:52:46.580 towards that family is, is huge. 00:52:46.640 --> 00:52:49.010 He's, you know, they're a lovely, lovely family. 00:52:49.520 --> 00:52:51.740 And he, they get it as well. 00:52:51.770 --> 00:52:56.780 They really, this isn't just, they've just given the capital fund 00:52:56.780 --> 00:52:58.580 there, there isn't a reason behind. 00:52:58.580 --> 00:53:02.030 They've given the capital fund and equally, Henry and his wife, 00:53:02.030 --> 00:53:04.490 Heather and Amir and Georgia, there are other two children. 00:53:04.860 --> 00:53:07.710 And, but Henry and Heather in particular, they've come and they've seen what we 00:53:07.710 --> 00:53:09.330 do in Child Vision and they get it. 00:53:09.360 --> 00:53:10.920 They understand why we do it. 00:53:10.920 --> 00:53:14.070 If you listen to Henry being interviewed about the center, he can 00:53:14.070 --> 00:53:16.080 talk about econ assist activities. 00:53:16.080 --> 00:53:19.680 He talks about allocation in the city center and how it's so important 00:53:20.070 --> 00:53:22.470 for to be in the city center. 00:53:22.720 --> 00:53:28.060 And so I hope that, I think the industry as a whole is paying more attention to 00:53:28.060 --> 00:53:30.310 this section of the Indus of, of horses. 00:53:30.520 --> 00:53:31.600 I'm very passionate. 00:53:31.690 --> 00:53:32.365 I work with horses. 00:53:33.280 --> 00:53:34.000 That's what I do. 00:53:34.090 --> 00:53:35.470 I work with horses. 00:53:35.530 --> 00:53:36.700 I'm not a therapist. 00:53:37.000 --> 00:53:38.230 I don't wanna be a therapist. 00:53:38.410 --> 00:53:41.630 'cause actually this is something we say when we give training as well, 00:53:41.780 --> 00:53:46.850 it's almost a little bit more, you are less strained by not being a therapist. 00:53:47.390 --> 00:53:52.280 You can follow the child and you can do do crazy stuff with the 00:53:52.280 --> 00:53:54.560 kids because we're not therapists. 00:53:54.920 --> 00:53:59.810 But we, I do think we're, we are building relationships with Show Jumping Island. 00:53:59.810 --> 00:54:02.150 We're building relationships with horse racing island. 00:54:02.510 --> 00:54:07.220 And we are seeing, because there's an we, there is a lot that those 00:54:07.220 --> 00:54:08.370 industries can learn from us. 00:54:08.370 --> 00:54:12.440 And I think as more people start to run centers and more people get into this 00:54:12.440 --> 00:54:15.890 section of the industry, people who have been in other sections of the industry. 00:54:15.890 --> 00:54:20.330 So for example well myself and Terry and David Doyle there and and 00:54:20.330 --> 00:54:24.110 then like that, Sammy Uping, castle Leslie, I I've been talking to one 00:54:24.110 --> 00:54:25.770 of her instructors who wants to. 00:54:26.655 --> 00:54:30.285 You know, be had to develop her program up there eventually. 00:54:30.945 --> 00:54:35.055 These are all strong horse people who are doing this, whereas traditionally, perhaps 00:54:35.055 --> 00:54:36.615 maybe it'd come from the other side. 00:54:37.845 --> 00:54:44.205 And, and so then how do I just say this without sort of sounding a bit righteous, 00:54:44.475 --> 00:54:49.625 but I do think very much it needs to be horse people leading the therapeutic 00:54:49.865 --> 00:54:51.755 equine assisted activities section. 00:54:52.645 --> 00:54:55.615 So that we will get the respect from the rest of the industry. 00:54:56.965 --> 00:55:01.195 We need to change the view of, of what this, we are not just touchy 00:55:01.195 --> 00:55:03.175 feely patting ponies, you know? 00:55:03.205 --> 00:55:07.105 So I'm really strict about when people come down to visit us. 00:55:07.165 --> 00:55:11.785 I explain the science, I explain how we train the horses. 00:55:11.785 --> 00:55:13.045 I show them the horses. 00:55:14.410 --> 00:55:17.020 Because we are not this. 00:55:17.230 --> 00:55:21.275 So for example, yesterday actually we got a very kind, got a nice check from 00:55:21.275 --> 00:55:24.365 the Irish Thorough Breeders Association and it was kind of like the younger 00:55:24.365 --> 00:55:28.745 generation in the Irish thorough breeders to generation through TALs Island. 00:55:29.555 --> 00:55:33.035 And they came down to present the check and bolstered there looking fabulous, 00:55:33.035 --> 00:55:34.325 you know, while they presented the check. 00:55:34.535 --> 00:55:37.625 But meanwhile, the session that was going on in the arena at the time 00:55:37.865 --> 00:55:41.225 was three young lads with their youth workers, with Rachel and Ali. 00:55:41.225 --> 00:55:44.945 My two instructors, and these are lads who are at risk. 00:55:45.005 --> 00:55:47.705 So they, they, they don't have a diagnosis as such, but one of 'em does, 00:55:47.705 --> 00:55:49.295 but they don't have a diagnosis as such. 00:55:49.565 --> 00:55:54.725 But they're school avoiding their prime targets for the 00:55:54.725 --> 00:55:56.555 drug dealers to pick as runners. 00:55:56.735 --> 00:56:00.495 And and so this is an early intervention youth program. 00:56:00.915 --> 00:56:04.365 They all got, half two or three of them have got their own ponies on 00:56:04.365 --> 00:56:06.075 the housing estates in Darndale. 00:56:06.285 --> 00:56:09.345 Now, one of them, Jeanie showed us picture absolutely stunning horse. 00:56:09.345 --> 00:56:13.275 Yes, down there's absolutely stunning Palomino Co. 00:56:13.845 --> 00:56:18.645 And they're in the arena there and we are just trying to one, have 00:56:18.645 --> 00:56:21.975 a crack with them, let them drop the guard and be kids for an hour. 00:56:22.275 --> 00:56:24.405 Stop trying to be the hard boys all the time. 00:56:24.915 --> 00:56:27.735 The other thing is also then teach 'em a little bit how to handle the 00:56:27.735 --> 00:56:31.785 horses nicely and then, and then how to like, so Rachel was teaching them 00:56:31.785 --> 00:56:34.845 to long re and stuff so they can go back and do it with their own ponies. 00:56:34.920 --> 00:56:35.210 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:56:35.760 --> 00:56:36.840 Lucy Dillon: They're in the arena. 00:56:36.870 --> 00:56:39.240 One of our ponies, Brad, is standing there at the mountain block. 00:56:39.240 --> 00:56:42.540 There's three kids all around him, and then they're doing this thing where 00:56:42.600 --> 00:56:44.760 one's getting on and the other one's leading the other one, and they're 00:56:44.760 --> 00:56:47.700 going as fast as they can to see if they can actually make each other fall off. 00:56:47.910 --> 00:56:48.960 That, that was the aim. 00:56:49.080 --> 00:56:50.880 And this leads into follow the child. 00:56:51.030 --> 00:56:53.610 That's, you know, that's as far as you can get from the strict riding 00:56:53.610 --> 00:56:54.990 instructor as you can get, isn't it? 00:56:55.320 --> 00:57:00.255 Actively trying to make the kid jump on the horse and they're running round and 00:57:00.255 --> 00:57:04.170 round and round, having so much crack and then they're all waving the whips. 00:57:04.170 --> 00:57:08.455 'cause what is it about young boys and whips like, they just, they 00:57:08.455 --> 00:57:10.080 just wanna crack 'em and wave them. 00:57:10.410 --> 00:57:14.140 And the, the three guys from thoroughbred Readers Association, 00:57:14.140 --> 00:57:15.430 like Jesus, look at that horse. 00:57:15.430 --> 00:57:17.830 He's just standing, France's just standing there in the middle of it all 00:57:18.250 --> 00:57:21.070 and they're like cracking whips all around him and he's just standing there. 00:57:21.130 --> 00:57:22.930 And that's again about the confidence thing. 00:57:22.930 --> 00:57:24.880 And I said, well, you know, I said, if you look really closely, you'll 00:57:24.880 --> 00:57:26.230 see Brad close his eyes in a minute. 00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:29.410 Because Brad, he does, Brad takes any opportunity for a little nap. 00:57:29.980 --> 00:57:32.980 So there's Brad, Brad's in the middle of it, all his eyes half closed. 00:57:32.980 --> 00:57:35.110 There's three lads running around him waving whips. 00:57:35.830 --> 00:57:38.830 And I think that's really important to show people like that. 00:57:38.830 --> 00:57:39.640 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 00:57:39.785 --> 00:57:42.610 Lucy Dillon: That we, you know, these are really good horses. 00:57:42.610 --> 00:57:46.990 These aren't, we're not dragging horses around arenas and pat people on the back. 00:57:46.990 --> 00:57:48.580 Aren't you great sitting on the horse? 00:57:48.610 --> 00:57:53.620 It's actually full on wild session sort of thing. 00:57:54.070 --> 00:57:54.460 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:57:54.580 --> 00:57:57.430 And the horsemanship that goes into that is Yes. 00:57:57.430 --> 00:57:57.760 Huge. 00:57:58.300 --> 00:57:58.480 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 00:57:58.480 --> 00:57:58.570 The 00:57:58.570 --> 00:58:02.740 Rupert Isaacson: horse, you know, you guys, I think in Ireland are 00:58:02.740 --> 00:58:04.780 really at the cutting edge, you know? 00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:07.900 There's involvement from horse sport island. 00:58:08.690 --> 00:58:11.390 There's involvement from the Thoroughbred Association now 00:58:11.390 --> 00:58:14.090 it's coming into the other areas. 00:58:14.090 --> 00:58:15.470 Show jumping as you say. 00:58:15.920 --> 00:58:19.370 Because of course all these people are having to look for what's the aftercare, 00:58:19.640 --> 00:58:21.590 what's the second career for these horses? 00:58:22.020 --> 00:58:26.490 But also there's money coming from those sectors now into the therapy world. 00:58:26.580 --> 00:58:27.690 And this of course, was not. 00:58:27.690 --> 00:58:32.840 So when we were all beginning and I work a lot in the USA, the 00:58:32.840 --> 00:58:36.170 Thoroughbred Aftercare Alliance there is getting more and more active. 00:58:36.500 --> 00:58:40.730 Some of the horse boy places like square peg in California definitely 00:58:40.730 --> 00:58:41.960 have that relationship with them. 00:58:42.230 --> 00:58:45.410 But your average place over there, and I think to a large 00:58:45.410 --> 00:58:50.420 degree in the UK as well, is very self-supporting and a bit isolated. 00:58:50.810 --> 00:58:54.680 And I, one of the things that really encourages me about Ireland is this 00:58:56.300 --> 00:59:01.770 embracing by the horse industry of the therapeutic side of things which I 00:59:01.770 --> 00:59:07.590 think will spill over to other countries because other countries do look to 00:59:07.590 --> 00:59:10.320 Ireland as a sort of horse authority. 00:59:10.920 --> 00:59:13.200 And whether they're doing that romantically or whether 00:59:13.200 --> 00:59:14.970 they're doing that practically. 00:59:15.600 --> 00:59:22.830 When you talk about, for example, the show jumpers, what, what, what are you 00:59:22.830 --> 00:59:28.440 seeing now coming in from these other parts of, say, the competition industry? 00:59:28.680 --> 00:59:32.340 Because they're the, they're, they're coming under fire, public, you know, 00:59:32.340 --> 00:59:36.120 from the public eye in the way that the racing industry has been for a long time. 00:59:36.360 --> 00:59:39.240 People are starting, you know, there's bad stuff has happened at the Olympics. 00:59:39.240 --> 00:59:40.140 We all know about it. 00:59:40.140 --> 00:59:44.290 You know, more and more the whole public license conversation gets going. 00:59:45.880 --> 00:59:47.680 Are you having to go and court them? 00:59:47.680 --> 00:59:49.300 Are they coming to talk to you? 00:59:49.480 --> 00:59:52.165 What are the conversations that are going on at the moment? 00:59:52.365 --> 00:59:54.880 Lucy Dillon: I think an awareness, I think the thing, I think the reason 00:59:54.880 --> 00:59:59.050 why Ireland probably is a bit more ahead than other countries at this 00:59:59.050 --> 01:00:00.730 is, is it's a very small country. 01:00:01.120 --> 01:00:01.480 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:00:01.900 --> 01:00:03.820 Lucy Dillon: You know, it's a very, very small country. 01:00:04.000 --> 01:00:09.410 So everybody, has everybody knows everybody. 01:00:09.930 --> 01:00:11.895 I mean, I really noticed that when I first moved here. 01:00:12.315 --> 01:00:16.215 I, you know, I came from North London, like, you know, so, and you 01:00:16.215 --> 01:00:18.765 know, it is a very small country and, and there's certain circles 01:00:18.765 --> 01:00:20.505 that all move around together. 01:00:20.955 --> 01:00:25.785 And I, I suppose so then it's sort of people naturally reach 01:00:25.785 --> 01:00:27.315 out to each other for support. 01:00:27.685 --> 01:00:29.125 That's the way it works in this country. 01:00:30.145 --> 01:00:30.175 Mm. 01:00:30.175 --> 01:00:30.805 Who, you know. 01:00:31.055 --> 01:00:35.245 And and so then, so the more people get into therapeutic riding and particularly 01:00:35.245 --> 01:00:41.335 ones who have maybe previously been a, a competition rider in the past 01:00:41.395 --> 01:00:45.755 or knows or has worked with people it just brings everybody into it. 01:00:45.755 --> 01:00:51.135 I think also equally in Ireland, as a country, and I noticed this when I 01:00:51.135 --> 01:00:53.775 moved here, you know, 27 years ago. 01:00:54.105 --> 01:00:57.855 And I suppose other countries probably are the same now, but in those days even 01:00:57.855 --> 01:00:59.925 as well, disabilities are much more open. 01:01:01.575 --> 01:01:06.185 And and I think everybody I dunno what I'm trying to say here really, but I think 01:01:08.375 --> 01:01:11.435 especially in the horse industry, it is a very small industry. 01:01:12.015 --> 01:01:17.325 So I You have connections everywhere with people. 01:01:17.325 --> 01:01:17.415 Yeah. 01:01:18.275 --> 01:01:22.355 And so if I might meet someone and they're down the country and that they're, they've 01:01:22.355 --> 01:01:25.265 come to Child Vision and they're here for some corporate thing or something, 01:01:25.295 --> 01:01:28.925 and I'll say you know, well, you know, have you heard of Li Skin at Farm? 01:01:28.925 --> 01:01:33.035 And that, and they'll probably know someone who knows someone, or 01:01:33.035 --> 01:01:34.475 they know someone who attends it. 01:01:34.475 --> 01:01:38.315 They, it's, and I think that's probably gonna help with Ireland. 01:01:38.315 --> 01:01:39.005 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:01:39.635 --> 01:01:43.505 Lucy Dillon: There is also a thing where in Ireland, everybody has to 01:01:43.505 --> 01:01:47.345 come together because if you don't come together, you're gonna be the odd one out. 01:01:48.515 --> 01:01:50.855 So come together. 01:01:50.855 --> 01:01:56.105 And the horse spot island have been very encouraging. 01:01:56.105 --> 01:01:59.240 Like I think they want to bring this section in. 01:01:59.735 --> 01:02:07.205 And again, as I just said earlier, I, as more and more strong equine places 01:02:07.205 --> 01:02:09.755 come along, the more they will listen. 01:02:10.685 --> 01:02:15.095 And then as, as we, I'm part of a like national network of people doing this. 01:02:15.095 --> 01:02:19.295 And you came to the thing, castle Leslie, where we would walk the HSE 01:02:19.295 --> 01:02:21.425 and the NHS and, and people like that. 01:02:21.425 --> 01:02:24.095 And, and we are, I'm lucky in the sense that I come from a large 01:02:24.095 --> 01:02:28.295 organization, so I have the backup of a large organization behind me to 01:02:28.295 --> 01:02:29.525 allow me to do that sort of thing. 01:02:29.705 --> 01:02:31.295 I'm, I'm, I'm not a sole practitioner. 01:02:32.105 --> 01:02:33.065 But there's very. 01:02:34.100 --> 01:02:38.000 I like to think now there's very little gatekeeping on what we do here. 01:02:38.240 --> 01:02:38.270 Rupert Isaacson: Mm. 01:02:38.690 --> 01:02:41.060 Lucy Dillon: I and this is one of the things we say at Child Vision. 01:02:41.120 --> 01:02:42.710 Anyone can come and visit us. 01:02:42.710 --> 01:02:44.600 Anybody can come and see what we do. 01:02:44.720 --> 01:02:46.040 Come and shadow us for the day. 01:02:46.040 --> 01:02:46.910 See what we do. 01:02:47.120 --> 01:02:50.870 'cause I could be doing, I could build a whole nother child vision 01:02:52.040 --> 01:02:54.020 in still on the north side. 01:02:54.020 --> 01:02:57.590 Actually, the north side of Dublin is, there's anyone who's not Irish. 01:02:58.070 --> 01:02:59.540 The north side of the dub are Dublin. 01:02:59.540 --> 01:03:03.170 And then the south side is the more Porsche side we are on the north side. 01:03:03.560 --> 01:03:06.860 That you could have a har, you could have a center like Ion doing 01:03:06.860 --> 01:03:08.900 Equis activities in every city. 01:03:09.440 --> 01:03:09.705 Rupert Isaacson: I agree. 01:03:10.165 --> 01:03:12.230 Lucy Dillon: And they'd still have waiting lists. 01:03:12.350 --> 01:03:12.710 Rupert Isaacson: I agree. 01:03:13.130 --> 01:03:14.150 Lucy Dillon: Because of what you do. 01:03:14.700 --> 01:03:17.070 And so we're, there's no gatekeeping on what we do. 01:03:17.070 --> 01:03:18.030 I'm not special. 01:03:18.030 --> 01:03:19.890 I'm, you know, anybody can do this. 01:03:20.340 --> 01:03:24.080 If, if you're learning and you wanna have a bit of crack, so I think 01:03:24.080 --> 01:03:27.890 hopefully the more we talk about it and the more I think as well, hopefully 01:03:27.890 --> 01:03:30.350 we make it accessible to people. 01:03:30.380 --> 01:03:33.170 'cause I think a lot of people don't get into it kind assisted activities 01:03:33.200 --> 01:03:34.760 'cause they think they might do it wrong. 01:03:35.420 --> 01:03:35.780 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:03:37.490 --> 01:03:40.910 Lucy Dillon: And so like that a lot of riding schools are, are, are being asked 01:03:41.120 --> 01:03:42.950 to say, maybe take an autism class. 01:03:43.190 --> 01:03:44.330 And they're afraid to, 01:03:44.900 --> 01:03:45.110 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:03:45.530 --> 01:03:46.820 Lucy Dillon: Afraid they're gonna do it wrong. 01:03:47.330 --> 01:03:50.330 And I, that's one thing we say when we give training, we sort 01:03:50.330 --> 01:03:52.700 of give two different types of training here at Child Fisher. 01:03:53.040 --> 01:03:57.240 But one of the things we say in both of those training is, you 01:03:57.240 --> 01:03:58.980 know, cut yourself some slack. 01:03:59.340 --> 01:04:02.580 Even if you do get it wrong, it's only come from a good place. 01:04:02.760 --> 01:04:06.090 It's not like you to to go out and do it wrong and make it, 01:04:06.090 --> 01:04:07.830 make a mess of it, you know? 01:04:07.830 --> 01:04:13.020 And several times, you know, more than several actually, to be honest, you know, 01:04:13.020 --> 01:04:16.530 I've had to sort of say to the parents, sorry, I think I might have just read. 01:04:16.590 --> 01:04:19.920 A child there too much, you know? 01:04:20.455 --> 01:04:21.830 And, but it's fine. 01:04:21.830 --> 01:04:24.170 And, and I think, I think that's something maybe that's actually you 01:04:24.170 --> 01:04:27.420 can come back to you say you know, what kind of help you be child led. 01:04:27.690 --> 01:04:32.550 I, well, my children might disagree with you, but I always felt growing up as a 01:04:32.555 --> 01:04:36.860 a when my children were growing up and parenting, you know, I of course I'm, 01:04:36.920 --> 01:04:41.000 you know, made huge mistakes as everybody does, but I was always quite quick to sort 01:04:41.000 --> 01:04:46.280 of apologize to them if they, if I did them, my, my, my parents were the same. 01:04:46.280 --> 01:04:49.760 They, they, you know, if they had made a wrong decision about something, 01:04:49.760 --> 01:04:51.050 they always apologized to me. 01:04:51.690 --> 01:04:51.860 That's 01:04:51.980 --> 01:04:52.180 Rupert Isaacson: interesting. 01:04:52.345 --> 01:04:53.095 That's unusual. 01:04:53.245 --> 01:04:53.605 Yeah. 01:04:53.855 --> 01:04:56.585 Lucy Dillon: My, my mom bless her, she, she's passed away a long time now. 01:04:56.695 --> 01:05:01.405 She she was, yeah, she was very forward thinking in her way. 01:05:01.405 --> 01:05:05.655 So, so consequently, we were very we always had a very honest 01:05:05.655 --> 01:05:07.005 relationship with our parents. 01:05:07.010 --> 01:05:07.150 Mm-hmm. 01:05:08.280 --> 01:05:09.660 My dad is my dad's fab. 01:05:09.660 --> 01:05:10.740 He is fab. 01:05:10.830 --> 01:05:11.520 You know, I'm very lucky. 01:05:11.520 --> 01:05:12.360 I have a really, really good What does 01:05:12.360 --> 01:05:12.990 Rupert Isaacson: your dad do? 01:05:13.135 --> 01:05:14.460 What, what did your parents do? 01:05:15.030 --> 01:05:16.020 Lucy Dillon: He was an accountant. 01:05:16.530 --> 01:05:16.800 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:05:17.160 --> 01:05:20.430 Lucy Dillon: But his father was a milkman and he had a horse in Tottenham 01:05:20.910 --> 01:05:21.240 Rupert Isaacson: in London. 01:05:21.270 --> 01:05:21.420 Okay. 01:05:21.420 --> 01:05:22.830 Oh, so it did run in the family a bit? 01:05:22.860 --> 01:05:24.060 Lucy Dillon: No, not really. 01:05:24.160 --> 01:05:28.025 Although my mom, my mom did say, my mom always kind of said that 01:05:28.025 --> 01:05:30.215 if she'd have been born, she was born in North London as well. 01:05:30.215 --> 01:05:31.925 If she'd have been born in the countryside, maybe she 01:05:31.925 --> 01:05:33.185 would've been more into it. 01:05:33.675 --> 01:05:37.905 And when I was 16, they bought me a horse and the plan was that my mom took 01:05:37.905 --> 01:05:40.665 some lessons and she wanted to try and learn to ride it on the days where I 01:05:40.665 --> 01:05:42.975 wasn't allowed to go and see it, you know, the days I had to do my homework. 01:05:43.890 --> 01:05:45.945 And she did it a few times and then she fell off. 01:05:46.725 --> 01:05:48.945 And and then she was like, she used to just go and take 01:05:48.945 --> 01:05:50.115 it for a walk with the dogs. 01:05:52.905 --> 01:05:57.335 But yeah, they like there isn't really a horse connection for the family. 01:05:57.560 --> 01:06:00.710 But animals, we always had animals, you know, we always had dogs, we 01:06:00.710 --> 01:06:02.840 always had cats and stuff like that. 01:06:04.670 --> 01:06:07.930 Rupert Isaacson: You talk about the trainings, you're doing trainings and 01:06:07.930 --> 01:06:11.840 I know that you and Terry, obviously you teach Horse Boy and movement 01:06:11.840 --> 01:06:16.910 method, but you've, you guys have also developed your own course curriculum, 01:06:16.970 --> 01:06:18.290 which is a really interesting one. 01:06:18.860 --> 01:06:23.210 Which is for people wanting to enter the industry, the, the 01:06:23.210 --> 01:06:24.710 therapeutic end of the industry. 01:06:24.950 --> 01:06:28.880 Maybe people who are horse, young horse professionals coming out of 01:06:28.880 --> 01:06:33.230 agricultural college or having done their BHS exams and thinking, can 01:06:33.230 --> 01:06:35.150 I, can I make a living at this? 01:06:36.020 --> 01:06:37.130 Which is a new thing, right? 01:06:37.130 --> 01:06:39.970 Because up until recently the answer would've be no, you can't 01:06:40.190 --> 01:06:42.820 you, you're gonna beggar yourself doing the therapeutic thing. 01:06:42.820 --> 01:06:47.020 But recently this has changed and funding is available and more and 01:06:47.020 --> 01:06:51.965 more it's becoming a, a, a viable career and, you guys have developed a 01:06:51.965 --> 01:06:57.035 course which looks at a whole range of options for people wanting to enter. 01:06:57.215 --> 01:06:58.085 Talk to us about that. 01:06:58.115 --> 01:07:02.255 'cause that's quite pioneering and I think could be quite ground 01:07:02.315 --> 01:07:03.785 groundbreaking for other countries. 01:07:04.835 --> 01:07:05.045 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 01:07:05.045 --> 01:07:06.965 So we, the course was developed 01:07:07.325 --> 01:07:08.375 Rupert Isaacson: what's it called by the way? 01:07:09.005 --> 01:07:11.075 Lucy Dillon: It's, well, it's changed its name now actually 01:07:11.075 --> 01:07:12.485 with the new certification. 01:07:12.515 --> 01:07:15.275 It's called Equine Assisted Activities Coaching Course. 01:07:16.175 --> 01:07:16.295 Okay. 01:07:16.295 --> 01:07:17.495 As opposed to therapeutic writing. 01:07:17.495 --> 01:07:18.935 'cause it's more than therapeutic writing. 01:07:19.055 --> 01:07:19.475 Rupert Isaacson: Indeed. 01:07:19.775 --> 01:07:22.265 Lucy Dillon: And that's actually, we don't call the service therapeutic writing, 01:07:22.265 --> 01:07:23.885 we call it equine assisted activities. 01:07:23.915 --> 01:07:26.880 'cause that kind of 'cause it isn't just about writing. 01:07:27.735 --> 01:07:32.625 So the course, we, the course was written in 2020, really? 01:07:32.625 --> 01:07:33.675 2019. 01:07:33.925 --> 01:07:37.985 By myself, Terry Broin, who was the unit manager at the time Audrey Darby, who 01:07:37.985 --> 01:07:39.875 was the OT that worked here at the time. 01:07:39.875 --> 01:07:42.935 And Gerald, no, Neil, who is also retired from 12. 01:07:42.935 --> 01:07:46.595 I'm the only one remaining who's, who was like head of 01:07:46.595 --> 01:07:48.215 training and stuff in television. 01:07:48.215 --> 01:07:50.225 So she was the one who kind of took all our ideas and 01:07:50.225 --> 01:07:51.335 put it into a nice structure. 01:07:52.115 --> 01:07:58.925 And basically the course is to sort of, kind of summarize up in a course what 01:07:59.345 --> 01:08:03.515 myself and Terry did in the, the first few years when we worked here, which 01:08:03.515 --> 01:08:07.085 was, well, myself in particular, come in as a writing instructor and then 01:08:07.085 --> 01:08:09.725 become an EQU activities instructor. 01:08:10.355 --> 01:08:13.295 So when we were sort of planning what to put into the course, I 01:08:13.295 --> 01:08:15.905 kind of just sat down and thought, okay, what have I learned? 01:08:17.285 --> 01:08:20.465 In the last three years and just sort of wrote it all down. 01:08:20.465 --> 01:08:23.885 And then we sort of put structure onto it because like that, as I said earlier, 01:08:23.885 --> 01:08:25.625 there's a lot of transferable skills. 01:08:26.525 --> 01:08:29.555 You know, if, if you've, well, one, we don't teach people how to look 01:08:29.555 --> 01:08:33.125 after horses on the course because they're qualified riding instructors. 01:08:33.125 --> 01:08:34.625 They know how to look after horses. 01:08:34.965 --> 01:08:39.015 We don't teach them how to teach people because they have a qualification in that. 01:08:39.015 --> 01:08:42.325 So they've learned about teaching and they've had experience of teaching. 01:08:42.835 --> 01:08:46.255 But we teach them then how to apply those skills in a different way. 01:08:46.765 --> 01:08:49.015 And then we give them all the information, sort of general 01:08:49.045 --> 01:08:51.205 background information on disabilities. 01:08:51.535 --> 01:08:54.415 But when we give the background information on disabilities, it's not sort 01:08:54.415 --> 01:08:55.945 of like, well, this condition is this. 01:08:55.975 --> 01:08:57.355 It's, yes, it is. 01:08:57.355 --> 01:09:01.195 Like, you know, cerebral palsy is this, it's caused by this, et cetera, et cetera. 01:09:01.405 --> 01:09:05.095 But the way it could affect someone on a horse is this, this, this, this, this. 01:09:05.365 --> 01:09:08.935 And the way it could, you can benefit the person by putting them on the 01:09:08.935 --> 01:09:10.525 horse is this, this, this, this, this. 01:09:11.095 --> 01:09:13.285 So that's how the course is very much written. 01:09:13.285 --> 01:09:18.205 It's about how to deliver this type of program. 01:09:18.715 --> 01:09:21.805 So, but we do talk about doing, we do encourage everybody to then 01:09:21.805 --> 01:09:25.225 go and do the Horse Boy as well for the horse training side of it. 01:09:25.645 --> 01:09:29.670 But we talk about just running sessions and how to commun. 01:09:29.670 --> 01:09:34.195 The big section on the bit of actual running sessions is communication as well, 01:09:34.765 --> 01:09:39.565 and how to communicate with people and the different ways to communicate with people. 01:09:39.685 --> 01:09:42.265 Yeah, so it's, it's, it is, it is a good course. 01:09:42.265 --> 01:09:46.815 I, you know, I really like giving it to people because it's very we, 01:09:46.815 --> 01:09:49.515 we try and give it in such a way that's very backwards and forwards. 01:09:49.515 --> 01:09:52.875 You know, there's an awful lot of stories from us and stories from them 01:09:53.115 --> 01:09:55.515 making it very relatable to people. 01:09:57.330 --> 01:09:59.940 So yeah, it is, it's, it's a great course. 01:09:59.940 --> 01:10:00.420 I like it. 01:10:00.492 --> 01:10:04.102 Rupert Isaacson: So, who has taken this intro course to the 01:10:04.102 --> 01:10:08.092 industry that you've seen now go on and do some interesting stuff. 01:10:08.962 --> 01:10:11.957 Lucy Dillon: So, a lot of people actually, there's been a lot 01:10:11.957 --> 01:10:12.977 of people through the course. 01:10:13.457 --> 01:10:13.937 Yeah. 01:10:13.937 --> 01:10:17.537 A lot of people have opened up their own bus, like a new 01:10:17.537 --> 01:10:19.817 business doing therapeutic. 01:10:20.157 --> 01:10:23.997 And then other people who, it's a right, you know, it's a riding school and they've 01:10:24.237 --> 01:10:27.657 added it as a section of the riding school and a bit of overlap between 01:10:27.657 --> 01:10:29.127 people who have done horse boy as well. 01:10:30.042 --> 01:10:31.482 Between the two courses. 01:10:31.532 --> 01:10:34.922 'Cause one of the aims of the course is that it, it's very accessible. 01:10:35.102 --> 01:10:37.922 So actually Arrow, which is the Association of Irish writing 01:10:37.922 --> 01:10:41.672 establishments, that was the, the body that was involved in getting 01:10:41.672 --> 01:10:43.142 the funding to write the course. 01:10:43.412 --> 01:10:47.522 Initially there was a bursary there for qu people in arrow 01:10:47.522 --> 01:10:49.412 centers to take the course. 01:10:49.962 --> 01:10:52.662 'Cause that was the aim of the course, was to roll out these services more 01:10:52.662 --> 01:10:54.972 nationally through our centers. 01:10:55.572 --> 01:11:00.462 So Ara is a self regulatory body for the, the writing 01:11:00.462 --> 01:11:01.812 school industry in this country. 01:11:01.812 --> 01:11:03.252 And it's part of Four Spot Island. 01:11:03.712 --> 01:11:03.722 Right. 01:11:04.612 --> 01:11:08.362 So, so there's a number of writing schools have incorporated it into them, and then 01:11:08.362 --> 01:11:09.892 just people started their own business. 01:11:09.892 --> 01:11:13.042 So, for example, I know two people here in, in Meath, which is where 01:11:13.042 --> 01:11:15.442 I live, the county I live in, which is just north of Dublin. 01:11:16.192 --> 01:11:20.272 One is she was a show jumping coach for a long time and she now does this from her 01:11:20.272 --> 01:11:22.162 yard instead of producing show jumpers. 01:11:22.162 --> 01:11:24.892 She does therapeutic riding and absolutely loves it and was like, 01:11:24.892 --> 01:11:27.052 I'm never going back to show jumping. 01:11:27.352 --> 01:11:32.062 And, and another lady, she did have her own school and she closed it down 01:11:32.062 --> 01:11:35.422 when she got married and had kids and, and now is doing therapeutic. 01:11:35.642 --> 01:11:37.862 And, you know, and making a good business out of it. 01:11:37.862 --> 01:11:40.382 I think that's another thing we teach on the course as well, is we 01:11:40.382 --> 01:11:43.982 te we explain to people that you can make a business out of this. 01:11:44.282 --> 01:11:44.582 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:11:45.152 --> 01:11:51.092 Lucy Dillon: Just because we are doing something for, for people with additional 01:11:51.092 --> 01:11:53.072 needs doesn't mean you can't charge them. 01:11:53.072 --> 01:11:56.072 And, and I think a lot of people took a take a bit of 01:11:56.072 --> 01:11:57.722 time to get around that idea. 01:11:58.352 --> 01:11:59.472 Because there is funding out there. 01:11:59.822 --> 01:11:59.882 So, 01:12:00.877 --> 01:12:02.857 Rupert Isaacson: and they didn't used to be, I mean, it used to be 01:12:02.857 --> 01:12:06.187 that if you did this, you did it as a volunteer and that was that. 01:12:06.187 --> 01:12:09.157 So people were in a bit of a poverty trap with it. 01:12:09.277 --> 01:12:09.337 Yeah. 01:12:09.337 --> 01:12:10.897 Or they just had their own resources. 01:12:11.077 --> 01:12:12.217 That has changed. 01:12:12.277 --> 01:12:12.697 Yeah. 01:12:13.537 --> 01:12:14.017 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 01:12:14.232 --> 01:12:18.137 And then also one of the parts we do the, there's a section on the course about 01:12:18.137 --> 01:12:22.217 like the business side of it, and we talk about the different funding sources 01:12:22.217 --> 01:12:26.517 there, but also the funding that a person if you have a child with additional 01:12:26.517 --> 01:12:30.567 needs, the funding that you get as a parent to support that child as well. 01:12:31.267 --> 01:12:35.332 That and so people are looking for services for their children. 01:12:36.082 --> 01:12:40.612 And, you know, in the same way that as a parent you pay for your child 01:12:40.612 --> 01:12:43.882 to go swimming lessons, you pay for your child to go horse riding lessons 01:12:43.882 --> 01:12:48.232 you pay for your child to, you know, parents are looking to give their child. 01:12:48.262 --> 01:12:51.712 And what's so lovely about equine assisted activities is yes, it is therapeutic. 01:12:51.712 --> 01:12:55.792 And yes, it has wonderful benefits for them, but it's also fun. 01:12:56.152 --> 01:13:00.382 That's, you know, it's, it's a fun, enjoyable thing for your child to do. 01:13:01.342 --> 01:13:03.112 So yeah, the courses, it, it is, it's good. 01:13:03.112 --> 01:13:07.422 It's, it's it's led onto a lot of places, incorporating it into it. 01:13:07.422 --> 01:13:13.152 So I have at least to there are 10 centers previous, you know, writing 01:13:13.152 --> 01:13:17.202 centers who are now offering therapeutic as a big part of their service. 01:13:17.382 --> 01:13:20.172 And then there's many more who are offering it on a smaller scale. 01:13:21.162 --> 01:13:24.642 Rupert Isaacson: Do you see yourself taking that course, that intro level 01:13:24.642 --> 01:13:26.952 course out, perhaps internationally first? 01:13:27.012 --> 01:13:30.012 I think the obvious place would be to the UK and then 01:13:30.072 --> 01:13:31.632 beyond, because I think there's. 01:13:32.637 --> 01:13:40.047 Actually a need for people to, as you say, know that this exists as a 01:13:40.047 --> 01:13:44.667 career now, whereas perhaps it didn't so much before that there is funding. 01:13:44.667 --> 01:13:46.227 What are the funding sources? 01:13:46.647 --> 01:13:51.897 How can you structure a business around this that is actually going to give 01:13:51.897 --> 01:13:53.757 you and your family quality of life? 01:13:53.817 --> 01:13:57.177 So I think that's, there, there are a couple of problems in the horse 01:13:57.177 --> 01:14:00.207 industry for a lot of people that are coming in at grassroots level, which 01:14:00.207 --> 01:14:04.587 is that, you know, it made me chuckle when you were saying you, you learned 01:14:04.587 --> 01:14:09.267 the sort of business side of horses at college because of course there's that 01:14:09.267 --> 01:14:14.097 old saying, how's you make a million in horses by starting with 2 million? 01:14:14.247 --> 01:14:14.517 You know? 01:14:14.847 --> 01:14:17.747 And that the idea is that, you know, you lose money through horses. 01:14:17.747 --> 01:14:19.787 But I've actually found that that's not true. 01:14:20.027 --> 01:14:26.087 I've found that if you have a skillset that is for whatever reason in 01:14:26.087 --> 01:14:28.612 demand, it, it's not a poverty trap. 01:14:28.642 --> 01:14:33.972 And ironically for me with horse sport, you know, I started flat 01:14:34.002 --> 01:14:36.792 broke because my career had ended. 01:14:36.792 --> 01:14:40.092 My journalistic career had ended because of Rowans, my son's autism. 01:14:40.092 --> 01:14:43.242 I couldn't travel and I was a foreign correspondent. 01:14:43.242 --> 01:14:45.102 I was, you know, I was broke. 01:14:45.852 --> 01:14:50.862 And I never expected that the technologies that I learned to help my 01:14:50.862 --> 01:14:56.952 son would end up becoming the mainstay, mainstay of the family income and then 01:14:58.482 --> 01:15:00.072 end up being how he makes a living. 01:15:00.102 --> 01:15:02.442 'cause he now makes a living that way as well. 01:15:02.472 --> 01:15:03.822 He, he helps on trainings. 01:15:03.822 --> 01:15:06.702 He explained to people autism from the inside. 01:15:06.702 --> 01:15:11.352 And, and so it's, and it's become an economic platform for him. 01:15:11.502 --> 01:15:16.462 And then because of the way we had to train the horses, we ended up with, a 01:15:16.462 --> 01:15:21.052 whole secondary dressage career, which I never saw coming because of how we 01:15:21.052 --> 01:15:22.612 had to train the horses for horse boy. 01:15:22.942 --> 01:15:25.822 So now clients fly in from all over the world just to learn 01:15:25.822 --> 01:15:27.052 that with our horses and stuff. 01:15:27.922 --> 01:15:32.782 So I often am encouraging people to go out and learn the skillset, but 01:15:32.782 --> 01:15:36.352 I think that you guys have come at it really interestingly, from a much 01:15:36.352 --> 01:15:39.682 more structured way saying, look, here are the institutional structures. 01:15:40.072 --> 01:15:45.922 And if you're coming in, as you say, out of learning how to be a writing structure, 01:15:45.922 --> 01:15:49.312 and now you are wondering, how am I gonna find my place in this universe? 01:15:49.702 --> 01:15:52.672 And yes, there are people coming in with much more money behind them, and 01:15:52.672 --> 01:15:56.752 frankly, they will probably be the ones that dominate in the sports side because 01:15:56.752 --> 01:15:58.972 that's just how the economics of it go. 01:15:59.392 --> 01:16:01.222 Where are you gonna make your niche? 01:16:01.792 --> 01:16:06.412 So I think you're providing a real service, not just for the people 01:16:06.412 --> 01:16:08.332 that are gonna be the service users. 01:16:08.992 --> 01:16:13.042 Who need it, but the people who are gonna be the service providers as well. 01:16:13.252 --> 01:16:15.292 So do, how do you see Yeah. 01:16:15.292 --> 01:16:18.742 What you're doing there, developing and going out and broadening. 01:16:20.182 --> 01:16:23.122 Lucy Dillon: It would be great if we could broaden the course. 01:16:23.722 --> 01:16:25.192 It's all down to time. 01:16:25.552 --> 01:16:25.702 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:16:25.702 --> 01:16:29.812 Lucy Dillon: Because, you know, if you went off and started giving the course 01:16:29.872 --> 01:16:33.892 all over the place, I, I wouldn't be getting to see kids every day. 01:16:34.192 --> 01:16:36.292 And I still really enjoy that side of the job. 01:16:36.292 --> 01:16:40.422 Like, you know, when, when I became the manager of the unit, I was 01:16:40.422 --> 01:16:43.692 like, yeah, but I'm still gonna see kids, you know, the majority of 01:16:43.692 --> 01:16:46.387 my week is doing that side of it. 01:16:46.892 --> 01:16:49.862 But I do, I think, but there are other courses coming along. 01:16:49.962 --> 01:16:52.962 And hopefully, you know, maybe in the future it might be part of the 01:16:52.962 --> 01:16:58.122 British School Society exams that this is a sort of way that could go or, or 01:16:58.122 --> 01:16:59.682 there could be a college course in it. 01:17:00.207 --> 01:17:00.567 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:17:00.747 --> 01:17:01.407 Lucy Dillon: I think the co 01:17:01.737 --> 01:17:03.267 Rupert Isaacson: Are you working on that at all with any of 01:17:03.267 --> 01:17:04.617 the agricultural colleges? 01:17:05.097 --> 01:17:07.257 Lucy Dillon: Not with the agricultural colleges, no. 01:17:07.327 --> 01:17:11.587 'Cause at the moment, the, see, the way our course works is it's 01:17:11.587 --> 01:17:15.137 for people who, the people who have attended the course they've 01:17:15.137 --> 01:17:16.217 Rupert Isaacson: already graduated. 01:17:16.217 --> 01:17:16.607 Right. 01:17:17.147 --> 01:17:19.457 Lucy Dillon: They've, and they're already working, so they haven't got time to go 01:17:19.457 --> 01:17:21.647 and start a year long college course. 01:17:21.702 --> 01:17:22.487 Rupert Isaacson: Right, right. 01:17:23.027 --> 01:17:25.097 Lucy Dillon: It's five days really intense. 01:17:25.637 --> 01:17:29.617 And then, then there's sort of assessments and things to go with it. 01:17:29.887 --> 01:17:33.607 But again, it's all quite tight 'cause that's what people have time for. 01:17:33.997 --> 01:17:34.147 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:17:34.247 --> 01:17:38.177 Lucy Dillon: You don't wanna put off the very people that you want to bring in. 01:17:38.867 --> 01:17:44.627 So the course is hopefully over the next month going to be certified 01:17:44.927 --> 01:17:48.857 by Lancia, which is a land-based agency, UK Irish land-based agency. 01:17:48.857 --> 01:17:51.317 So that means it's quality control checked, checked. 01:17:51.317 --> 01:17:53.117 We've been for all sorts of processes. 01:17:54.287 --> 01:17:57.377 To talk about the quality of the course and the content and the, 01:17:57.377 --> 01:17:59.087 the assessment types and things. 01:17:59.747 --> 01:18:03.207 And so hopefully maybe that might roll it out more in the future. 01:18:03.567 --> 01:18:06.657 It continues, you know, the, the demand is there for it. 01:18:07.377 --> 01:18:11.007 And maybe there is similar things happening in the uk. 01:18:11.007 --> 01:18:14.097 It's, and maybe it's something that one of the colleges in the 01:18:14.097 --> 01:18:15.717 UK might pick up as a thing. 01:18:16.377 --> 01:18:19.017 You know, and if anyone's listening, I'd be very happy to help. 01:18:19.537 --> 01:18:19.627 But 01:18:20.317 --> 01:18:23.257 Rupert Isaacson: well, people are, I know there's people who are involved at 01:18:23.257 --> 01:18:25.537 Har Pre and Capri and places like that. 01:18:25.687 --> 01:18:29.527 They'll definitely be watching this podcast, and I think we should, we 01:18:29.527 --> 01:18:30.817 should throw that challenge out there. 01:18:30.817 --> 01:18:35.377 It's like, this ought to be part of the curriculum somehow. 01:18:35.377 --> 01:18:42.907 And, and the curricular should offer the therapeutic angles, the equine 01:18:42.907 --> 01:18:46.987 assisted angles alongside the other things as people are going through 01:18:46.987 --> 01:18:49.627 those modules, because they're gonna have to go out into the. 01:18:50.272 --> 01:18:51.082 Industry. 01:18:51.562 --> 01:18:55.342 This is now, as you say, how the industry is developing to not put 01:18:55.342 --> 01:18:57.532 these things in at the college level. 01:18:57.622 --> 01:18:59.632 How does that serve the student? 01:19:00.502 --> 01:19:05.962 So maybe, maybe we should actually make a, a bit of a formal approach. 01:19:06.322 --> 01:19:09.322 Worst thing they can do is say no, and then we'll try again. 01:19:10.627 --> 01:19:14.002 Lucy Dillon: I majorly, you know, I, I did one of the first EQU degrees yeah. 01:19:14.002 --> 01:19:17.797 You know, my, one of that, that was, that's where we met at Coach College. 01:19:18.037 --> 01:19:22.087 He was one of the, he was one of the first equine graduates, that first 50 of 01:19:22.087 --> 01:19:24.337 them that did a degree in EQU studies. 01:19:24.542 --> 01:19:24.962 Mm-hmm. 01:19:25.067 --> 01:19:29.537 And it, it saddens me sometimes when you still hear other people in the 01:19:29.537 --> 01:19:31.397 industry criticize the colleges. 01:19:31.797 --> 01:19:31.807 Yeah. 01:19:31.807 --> 01:19:35.277 And because I think, you know, things have changed so much in 30 years. 01:19:35.952 --> 01:19:40.632 And you, you can't criticize the colleges and you can't criticize. 01:19:40.632 --> 01:19:43.152 Oh, young people don't, they don't wanna work in the industry and 01:19:43.152 --> 01:19:44.502 learn the hard way like I did. 01:19:44.622 --> 01:19:48.702 No, they don't actually, you know, because actually nobody wants to work. 01:19:48.702 --> 01:19:51.402 Like people worked in labor in physical jobs 30 years ago. 01:19:51.492 --> 01:19:52.032 Do they? 01:19:52.452 --> 01:19:53.172 You know, society, 01:19:55.332 --> 01:19:58.932 I, you know, I don't wanna wear, my grandfather was a milkman around 01:19:58.932 --> 01:19:59.862 London with a horse and cart. 01:19:59.862 --> 01:20:00.432 I don't wanna do this. 01:20:01.247 --> 01:20:01.537 Yeah. 01:20:02.862 --> 01:20:07.307 So I think you know, people have to be realistic about, it's not that 01:20:07.307 --> 01:20:11.027 young people are flaky, they're just a bit more informed and so is society. 01:20:11.507 --> 01:20:11.897 I 01:20:11.937 --> 01:20:12.147 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:20:12.147 --> 01:20:15.507 Well, and also what we know is, you know, even if they go through college to learn 01:20:15.507 --> 01:20:19.627 this stuff, you're still going to have to run your program and that program 01:20:19.627 --> 01:20:25.437 will still demand a lot of physical and mental and emotional challenges from 01:20:25.437 --> 01:20:27.447 you that's gonna take care of itself. 01:20:27.447 --> 01:20:31.327 Yeah, if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on this podcast, 01:20:31.727 --> 01:20:36.627 I'm guessing you are, then you've probably also always wondered a little 01:20:36.627 --> 01:20:38.877 bit about the old master system. 01:20:39.342 --> 01:20:40.652 of dressage training. 01:20:40.692 --> 01:20:49.262 If you go and check out our Helios Harmony program, we outline there step by step 01:20:49.332 --> 01:20:55.612 exactly how to train your horse from the ground to become the dressage horse 01:20:55.622 --> 01:21:02.142 of your dreams in a way that absolutely serves the physical, mental and emotional 01:21:02.192 --> 01:21:04.962 well being of the horse and the rider. 01:21:05.022 --> 01:21:05.762 Intrigued? 01:21:05.962 --> 01:21:06.822 Like to know more? 01:21:07.692 --> 01:21:10.522 Go to our website, Helios Harmony. 01:21:12.222 --> 01:21:13.912 Check out the free introduction course. 01:21:14.472 --> 01:21:14.992 Take it from there. 01:21:15.496 --> 01:21:15.676 Lucy Dillon: I agree. 01:21:15.676 --> 01:21:19.486 There's an awful lot still in our industry of sort of, you know, you should work 01:21:19.486 --> 01:21:24.346 for nothing, just for the privilege with so and so or this sort of thing, and, 01:21:24.346 --> 01:21:26.026 and that just can't happen nowadays. 01:21:26.026 --> 01:21:27.556 Cost of living is completely different. 01:21:27.556 --> 01:21:27.616 Yeah. 01:21:27.646 --> 01:21:29.686 The, the, it, it just can't happen. 01:21:30.256 --> 01:21:34.146 But I, yeah, no, I do, I think, and I get, we have a lot of there's a year 01:21:34.146 --> 01:21:37.716 in Irish education called transition year, which is a year before you 01:21:37.716 --> 01:21:39.276 take your final two years of school. 01:21:39.336 --> 01:21:40.116 It's, it's optional. 01:21:40.116 --> 01:21:43.356 Some schools it's compulsory, some it's optional, and it's a year of sort of 01:21:43.356 --> 01:21:48.396 work experiences and trying new subjects and it's a really great year actually. 01:21:48.796 --> 01:21:50.296 Well, it depends what the kid makes of it. 01:21:50.851 --> 01:21:51.361 That year. 01:21:51.661 --> 01:21:54.601 And so we have a lot of transition year students come and volunteer with 01:21:54.601 --> 01:21:58.171 us in Child Vision and, you know, massively helps us support running 01:21:58.171 --> 01:22:01.351 the service because they, it is, you know, you rely on volunteers to 01:22:01.351 --> 01:22:02.941 run on, run this type of service. 01:22:03.451 --> 01:22:06.301 And we get a lot of transition year students because of our location, you 01:22:06.301 --> 01:22:07.501 know, they can actually get to us. 01:22:07.981 --> 01:22:08.281 Yeah. 01:22:08.331 --> 01:22:13.041 And it more and more in getting ones who come, not necessarily from local 01:22:13.041 --> 01:22:15.771 schools, but come a little bit of a distance and, and ones from local 01:22:15.771 --> 01:22:18.951 schools as well who have an interest in horses and they say, I want to 01:22:18.951 --> 01:22:20.601 be a therapeutic riding instructor. 01:22:21.201 --> 01:22:24.801 And I think that's great because that, you know, when I was 16, 01:22:24.801 --> 01:22:26.001 no, it wasn't even a thing. 01:22:26.871 --> 01:22:29.451 So I think that's, you know, I think that's great. 01:22:29.451 --> 01:22:32.571 And, and so then like that, I, I always say to them. 01:22:33.681 --> 01:22:36.801 Go to college and learn about horses or go and train and get your BHS 01:22:36.801 --> 01:22:40.311 exams and learn about horses properly, then start looking about being 01:22:40.311 --> 01:22:41.631 a therapeutic riding instructor. 01:22:41.631 --> 01:22:43.851 You've got to go and do the horse bit first. 01:22:44.181 --> 01:22:44.631 Rupert Isaacson: Yes. 01:22:44.751 --> 01:22:45.201 Yes. 01:22:45.861 --> 01:22:46.641 I so agree. 01:22:46.641 --> 01:22:47.301 I so agree. 01:22:47.301 --> 01:22:51.071 And it's interesting I think you've met, you've met Leanna Tank 01:22:51.101 --> 01:22:55.121 from Michigan, who is, I think she was there our last tribe day. 01:22:55.241 --> 01:22:56.981 She's an occupational therapist. 01:22:56.981 --> 01:23:04.111 She's an OT who works in the criminal justice system in with people, in 01:23:04.111 --> 01:23:08.641 some cases in secure units where they've been acquitted from reasons 01:23:08.641 --> 01:23:12.461 of insanity from having done things that are so heinous that they 01:23:12.461 --> 01:23:14.681 can't be allowed back into society. 01:23:15.221 --> 01:23:19.491 And she's using she, she's a very accomplished horse woman. 01:23:19.491 --> 01:23:23.781 So she's using also tacky and horse boy movement method in that, but she's 01:23:23.811 --> 01:23:26.631 using many other modalities as well. 01:23:26.631 --> 01:23:26.991 But she's. 01:23:28.371 --> 01:23:29.391 She's also a professor. 01:23:29.601 --> 01:23:34.981 She's an adjunct professor at a university there in Michigan teaching OTs. 01:23:35.581 --> 01:23:44.461 And she's the first to say when it comes to the equine being a therapist, is 01:23:46.531 --> 01:23:50.821 you are like third in the tier of importance in that unit. 01:23:50.881 --> 01:23:55.561 It's the people who are the horse professionals who have to lead and 01:23:55.561 --> 01:24:03.931 guide this because if you don't understand the animal, the environment 01:24:03.931 --> 01:24:10.921 that you are working with, no amount of theoretical expertise 01:24:11.611 --> 01:24:14.911 is going to be of any use at all. 01:24:15.571 --> 01:24:17.821 And I think you guys really. 01:24:18.481 --> 01:24:22.771 Exemplified that through quite a lot of the pioneering work at Child 01:24:22.771 --> 01:24:27.121 Vision, you know, because you were working with so many therapists and 01:24:27.121 --> 01:24:29.041 those therapists were coming out of 01:24:31.651 --> 01:24:35.461 a, a, a very established organization, had been St. 01:24:35.461 --> 01:24:38.161 Joseph's School to the bride, then it rebranded as Child Vision. 01:24:38.461 --> 01:24:43.541 There was a real kind of momentum to working in that 01:24:43.541 --> 01:24:44.831 institution as a therapist. 01:24:44.831 --> 01:24:47.921 You know, you guys came in as the equine unit somewhat on the side. 01:24:48.911 --> 01:24:52.301 So it was very natural, I think, for people to look at it a little bit as 01:24:52.301 --> 01:24:54.761 an add-on, when of course it wasn't. 01:24:54.881 --> 01:24:58.601 And then I noticed more and more that child, child vision when they were 01:24:58.601 --> 01:25:02.441 going out and doing their marketing stuff, would put the horse thing front. 01:25:03.221 --> 01:25:05.861 You know, that would be like the first thing on the leaflet. 01:25:05.861 --> 01:25:07.271 The first thing on the thing. 01:25:07.271 --> 01:25:08.201 It's like, why? 01:25:08.201 --> 01:25:11.351 Because it really works, but why does it really work? 01:25:11.501 --> 01:25:15.191 Because the people running it on the horse side, were rock solid. 01:25:15.761 --> 01:25:19.841 And, and so I I absolutely agree that it, it's, it, and you guys, I think 01:25:19.841 --> 01:25:26.881 have done a incredible service, I think you and Terry particularly within the 01:25:26.881 --> 01:25:37.111 therapeutic field to kind of legitimize the horse professional as absolutely 01:25:37.111 --> 01:25:41.496 central to this role who can then go cross fertilize from one therapy to another. 01:25:42.151 --> 01:25:45.031 So if you come in as an ot, you come as a physical therapist, 01:25:45.211 --> 01:25:48.241 you come in as an equine assisted psychotherapist or whatever. 01:25:48.481 --> 01:25:52.231 You, if you don't have that solid horse professional there, who 01:25:52.231 --> 01:25:54.361 actually understands more about. 01:25:54.766 --> 01:26:00.106 What you all do in your own little therapy silos that perhaps you may be even 01:26:00.436 --> 01:26:05.836 understand about each other because you're stuck in your a, BA silo or your OT silo. 01:26:05.836 --> 01:26:08.476 Whatever that horse person who's working with all of you 01:26:08.686 --> 01:26:10.216 perhaps understands maybe more. 01:26:10.366 --> 01:26:16.426 And, and, and because they're exposed to you all and have to understand what you do 01:26:16.576 --> 01:26:20.776 and integrate that through the lens of the horse while keeping you and the child safe 01:26:20.896 --> 01:26:25.066 and served, it's a really complex role. 01:26:25.526 --> 01:26:30.476 What do you think I is the sort of, 01:26:32.696 --> 01:26:37.316 if you are, if you are going to give advice to, not, let's go outside of the 01:26:37.406 --> 01:26:42.596 equine, if you're gonna give it advice to therapists, OTs, psychotherapists, 01:26:42.626 --> 01:26:46.016 physical therapists, and so on, who want to come in and work in this sector, 01:26:48.926 --> 01:26:50.006 what do they need to know? 01:26:52.496 --> 01:26:54.116 Lucy Dillon: I think it depends what they want to do. 01:26:54.116 --> 01:26:54.206 Mm-hmm. 01:26:54.806 --> 01:27:00.626 See, there's a lot of difference between say a therapist comes and they want 01:27:00.626 --> 01:27:05.156 to work and incorporate hippotherapy, which is the general term, isn't it? 01:27:05.156 --> 01:27:08.956 For for the OT physio speech and language using a horse. 01:27:10.336 --> 01:27:15.706 If they want to set up a practice with one horse, possibly two horses, 01:27:16.966 --> 01:27:21.286 and it's maybe, you know, they have a personal connection to those two horses 01:27:21.346 --> 01:27:29.026 or they, then that's very different to someone who says, who comes from a 01:27:29.026 --> 01:27:32.596 one-horse background, who wants to start working with six kids and six horses. 01:27:32.596 --> 01:27:38.506 And there's a big difference in that because you can become the expert in those 01:27:38.506 --> 01:27:41.236 one and two horses and learn about those. 01:27:41.236 --> 01:27:43.786 One just like the individual horse owner. 01:27:44.761 --> 01:27:46.531 Is an expert in their own horse. 01:27:46.531 --> 01:27:49.381 Just like the parent is the expert in their own child, isn't it? 01:27:49.381 --> 01:27:50.731 It's the same thing. 01:27:50.881 --> 01:27:50.941 Yeah. 01:27:51.731 --> 01:27:56.381 And so I think, God, I don't wanna offend anyone here, but I think the 01:27:56.381 --> 01:28:01.421 thing to say to therapists and stuff is to appreciate your limitations 01:28:01.421 --> 01:28:02.651 when it comes to the horses. 01:28:03.311 --> 01:28:06.881 Equally as the way I appreciated my limitations when I started doing 01:28:06.881 --> 01:28:13.241 this as understanding children with vision impairment, understanding 01:28:13.241 --> 01:28:17.471 people, children with a physical issue, and now with experience, I've 01:28:17.471 --> 01:28:22.331 experienced more things, learned about more things and know more about it. 01:28:22.661 --> 01:28:26.441 I do think there is a big difference between working in an environment like 01:28:26.441 --> 01:28:33.251 ours with 10 horses, and you're seeing, I know, 25, 30 clients a day to working with 01:28:33.251 --> 01:28:36.461 two horses that you own, that you know. 01:28:37.271 --> 01:28:37.631 Rupert Isaacson: Sure. 01:28:38.051 --> 01:28:42.881 Lucy Dillon: You see them, you're seeing clients one at a time with those horses. 01:28:42.881 --> 01:28:44.771 It is a very different environment, isn't it? 01:28:44.771 --> 01:28:46.031 And there's space for everybody in this. 01:28:46.631 --> 01:28:47.501 Absolutely. 01:28:47.981 --> 01:28:53.051 So I suppose if someone is interested in it, I think the thing is, is you can't 01:28:53.051 --> 01:28:56.861 learn about horses in six months as well. 01:28:57.371 --> 01:28:58.691 It takes a long time. 01:28:59.301 --> 01:29:02.841 You know, it doesn't take a lifetime if you really fully immerse yourself into it. 01:29:03.171 --> 01:29:06.321 But there is a big difference, and I always say this, there's a big 01:29:06.321 --> 01:29:09.681 difference between people who have been with horses all their life. 01:29:09.681 --> 01:29:12.321 I've, I've had my own horse, then people who have actually 01:29:12.321 --> 01:29:13.401 commercially worked with them. 01:29:14.001 --> 01:29:14.211 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:29:14.841 --> 01:29:16.401 Lucy Dillon: Because it's just different. 01:29:16.401 --> 01:29:16.421 It's different. 01:29:17.136 --> 01:29:17.416 Yeah. 01:29:17.956 --> 01:29:21.601 You know, I, I used, yeah, it's just different. 01:29:23.551 --> 01:29:23.821 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:29:23.821 --> 01:29:28.321 It's understanding that you need to constantly broaden the skillset. 01:29:29.031 --> 01:29:30.621 I think that people who are. 01:29:31.176 --> 01:29:35.346 Able to work in the commercial sector who are really good at it. 01:29:35.406 --> 01:29:39.426 What they, what I always find with those people is that they're constantly 01:29:39.426 --> 01:29:41.946 going out to learn something new. 01:29:42.156 --> 01:29:46.476 They're constantly, the really good ones are always, and they're willing to 01:29:46.506 --> 01:29:51.246 completely change what they do if they find something better rather than just 01:29:51.246 --> 01:29:52.896 a set of opinions that they stick to. 01:29:53.386 --> 01:29:55.696 And I think that's true across, across any profession. 01:29:56.176 --> 01:29:59.206 Something that occurred to me as I was listening to you just now is we haven't 01:29:59.206 --> 01:30:01.846 covered, and I think we should cover this as we're sort of heading towards 01:30:02.056 --> 01:30:06.766 the two hour mark here, is you really, I know that within Child Vision you 01:30:06.796 --> 01:30:09.916 work with a very broad range of clients. 01:30:10.006 --> 01:30:15.496 However, you really have an expertise, I know on the autism side as well, 01:30:15.496 --> 01:30:18.976 but you really do have an expertise on the visual impairment side. 01:30:20.476 --> 01:30:24.496 If you had to, if you're running like a little seminar right now. 01:30:25.321 --> 01:30:28.291 And we are all sitting in front of you going, yes, Lucy, 01:30:28.441 --> 01:30:29.761 tell us what we need to know. 01:30:29.761 --> 01:30:33.091 What are the, what are the five, 10 most important things we need 01:30:33.091 --> 01:30:37.651 to be aware of and adapt ourselves to, and skills that we need to get? 01:30:37.741 --> 01:30:40.111 If we're going to work with people with visual impairment, what are they? 01:30:43.021 --> 01:30:46.921 Lucy Dillon: Gosh, I, I think probably the biggest one is don't underestimate them. 01:30:48.511 --> 01:30:50.671 People with visual impairment. 01:30:50.801 --> 01:30:53.561 Sometimes I think particularly in television, when you meet the children 01:30:53.561 --> 01:30:58.301 and the young adults that are in there and you meet them just, you know, face 01:30:58.331 --> 01:31:01.301 on and you meet them in the cafe and you meet them passing and you stop and you 01:31:01.301 --> 01:31:05.051 talk to them and you, if you actually read their visual impairment, you'd 01:31:05.051 --> 01:31:08.561 be like, wow, that person's amazing. 01:31:09.021 --> 01:31:11.451 You know, the way they're negotiating their environment. 01:31:11.811 --> 01:31:15.891 And then it's just being careful about things, you know, and that, again, that 01:31:15.891 --> 01:31:17.336 comes into, you know, talk to the parents. 01:31:18.096 --> 01:31:22.116 So have a, you know, be aware of what that person's vision is. 01:31:22.536 --> 01:31:25.896 But then this sounds, this is gonna make me sound a bit, well, hey, 01:31:26.226 --> 01:31:27.776 but but don't be too focused on it. 01:31:28.886 --> 01:31:31.826 So if the parent says, well, they have no vision at all in their right eye, well 01:31:31.826 --> 01:31:33.506 then just make sure you stand on the left. 01:31:33.956 --> 01:31:37.706 But don't be sort of worried about talking about something that's on the right side. 01:31:37.796 --> 01:31:41.336 'cause they can turn their head and, and be aware perhaps 01:31:41.571 --> 01:31:44.996 of, of balance a little bit. 01:31:45.446 --> 01:31:49.556 But again, you'll, you'll see it when you, when once you start doing it. 01:31:50.306 --> 01:31:53.006 Rupert Isaacson: What do we need to be aware of with balance that, that 01:31:53.006 --> 01:31:54.506 might not be so obvious for people? 01:31:55.086 --> 01:31:56.496 Lucy Dillon: Just for some thing. 01:31:56.496 --> 01:31:58.566 I'll tell you one thing that's a really important point. 01:31:58.626 --> 01:32:01.986 We make this with the children of vision impairment when they get off the horse. 01:32:03.501 --> 01:32:06.561 And they're gonna come to, we always get mount at steps on and off. 01:32:06.831 --> 01:32:10.941 And one, because it kind of frames the session as well, but also it's safer. 01:32:10.941 --> 01:32:13.701 And we have two sets of steps and the horse sort of parks in the middle of them. 01:32:14.381 --> 01:32:18.011 So if someone has vision impairment, do not move that horse until you've got down 01:32:18.011 --> 01:32:24.731 those steps because that movement behind them could be distracting and affect their 01:32:24.731 --> 01:32:26.861 balance as they're negotiating steps. 01:32:28.131 --> 01:32:30.171 So it's just talking a person through it. 01:32:30.351 --> 01:32:32.331 Ask a person with a vision impairment. 01:32:32.361 --> 01:32:33.621 Well, do you want to hold my hand? 01:32:33.621 --> 01:32:35.061 Do you want me to hold your elbow? 01:32:35.211 --> 01:32:36.561 Do you want to take my elbow? 01:32:37.461 --> 01:32:39.321 You know, how do you want me to support you? 01:32:40.011 --> 01:32:42.911 And and ask them, you know, when you get to the steps, do you want 01:32:42.911 --> 01:32:44.111 me to count you up the steps? 01:32:44.441 --> 01:32:46.241 Do you wanna feel the steps yourself? 01:32:46.601 --> 01:32:49.301 And that's, again, this is something we teach on the course is a little 01:32:49.301 --> 01:32:50.891 bit of patient handling as well. 01:32:51.441 --> 01:32:53.961 How to best support someone who's say maybe is not just 01:32:53.961 --> 01:32:56.631 visually impaired, but physically vulnerable, going up and down steps. 01:32:57.006 --> 01:32:59.526 You know, have a wide base pre present yourself. 01:32:59.736 --> 01:33:02.946 If they're coming down the step, say they're on the third step, we'll make 01:33:02.946 --> 01:33:05.766 sure you are on the second and even the first step with your two legs. 01:33:05.766 --> 01:33:08.646 So you are there and from a visual point of view, they can feel 01:33:08.646 --> 01:33:09.546 that you are lower than them. 01:33:09.546 --> 01:33:12.696 So they know they're going down, but you're also got a wide 01:33:12.696 --> 01:33:15.066 base and you know, you're not standing on the same step as them. 01:33:15.066 --> 01:33:17.436 'cause if they lose their balance and you are two feet on the same 01:33:17.436 --> 01:33:19.956 step as them, if all of you are going head first off the step. 01:33:20.946 --> 01:33:24.336 Whereas if you are two steps down with your legs apart on one on one 01:33:24.336 --> 01:33:28.956 step and one on the other, you are a secure balance for them to support off. 01:33:29.736 --> 01:33:33.216 But most children with visual impairment are amazing, the 01:33:33.216 --> 01:33:34.596 way they negotiate the world. 01:33:35.796 --> 01:33:38.616 The other thing about the, the most obvious one as well is if someone has a 01:33:38.616 --> 01:33:40.866 vision impairment, introduce yourself. 01:33:42.096 --> 01:33:42.456 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:33:42.976 --> 01:33:43.876 Lucy Dillon: Yeah, I'm trying to think. 01:33:43.876 --> 01:33:46.516 So all these things that you kind of do in Televis without thinking about 01:33:46.516 --> 01:33:48.196 'em anymore, so introduce, you know. 01:33:48.946 --> 01:33:50.116 Hi Peter, it's Lucy. 01:33:50.146 --> 01:33:50.986 How are you today? 01:33:51.676 --> 01:33:53.686 And, or, and, and say goodbye as well. 01:33:53.686 --> 01:33:54.916 That's a really important thing. 01:33:55.406 --> 01:33:57.116 People with vision permanent will tell you that. 01:33:57.266 --> 01:33:59.786 Don't just talk to somebody and then walk away. 01:33:59.816 --> 01:34:02.606 'cause they might keep talking to you 'cause they don't know you've walked away. 01:34:02.876 --> 01:34:03.356 Rupert Isaacson: Right. 01:34:03.566 --> 01:34:05.846 Lucy Dillon: And that's not very nice for someone, is it? 01:34:06.416 --> 01:34:11.436 So like that if you meet someone on campus walking through the camp, you know, 01:34:11.436 --> 01:34:14.646 walking through campus, you might sort of say, oh hey Joe, how are you today? 01:34:14.996 --> 01:34:16.936 And if you know that you might yeah. 01:34:17.146 --> 01:34:19.366 And they'll, Hey, you know, how are you today? 01:34:19.366 --> 01:34:19.906 It's Lucy. 01:34:20.476 --> 01:34:22.116 And they'll say, oh yeah, hello. 01:34:22.116 --> 01:34:23.766 And then, then you say, okay, see you then Joe. 01:34:23.766 --> 01:34:26.946 I've gotta go now so that they're not left talking to you. 01:34:26.946 --> 01:34:27.156 Okay. 01:34:29.346 --> 01:34:30.576 That's kind of it really. 01:34:31.206 --> 01:34:31.806 Rupert Isaacson: When 01:34:32.496 --> 01:34:35.826 Lucy Dillon: kids are quite with their visual impairments. 01:34:35.826 --> 01:34:37.896 'cause I think the thing you have to remember with a child with vision 01:34:37.896 --> 01:34:39.096 impairment, that's their vision. 01:34:41.511 --> 01:34:44.121 So they have grown up with that vision. 01:34:44.121 --> 01:34:45.141 That is their vision. 01:34:47.821 --> 01:34:48.751 So that's their Right, 01:34:49.166 --> 01:34:49.436 Rupert Isaacson: right. 01:34:49.436 --> 01:34:53.636 So they may not be viewing it as an impairment because it's the skillset 01:34:53.636 --> 01:34:54.746 they have and they're using it. 01:34:54.746 --> 01:34:54.836 Yes. 01:34:55.286 --> 01:34:58.076 And that leads me to the next question is how, what are you 01:34:58.076 --> 01:34:59.336 actually serving them with? 01:34:59.336 --> 01:35:04.166 Like, let's say someone is completely blind no amount of doing cool things on 01:35:04.166 --> 01:35:06.836 a horse is going to make that person see. 01:35:07.566 --> 01:35:12.441 So therefore, what are we looking for with visual impairment? 01:35:13.146 --> 01:35:17.496 Specifically when we're working with horses, for example, if, if, if you were 01:35:17.496 --> 01:35:21.486 to say that to me with autism, you know, what I would say is I would say, well, I'm 01:35:21.486 --> 01:35:23.376 looking for oxytocin for communication. 01:35:23.586 --> 01:35:27.406 I'm looking for novel movement moving problem solving, which 01:35:27.526 --> 01:35:31.516 vestibular system, which is BDNF, which is neuroplasticity and okay, 01:35:31.516 --> 01:35:32.896 you could say that about anybody. 01:35:33.136 --> 01:35:37.246 But given that I'm working with a cognitive issue here, I want 01:35:37.246 --> 01:35:38.896 to effectively grow a new brain. 01:35:38.896 --> 01:35:41.446 So I know that if I work in this way with a horse, I'm gonna 01:35:41.446 --> 01:35:42.586 sort of get towards that way. 01:35:43.186 --> 01:35:45.406 When you're working with visual impairment, and I know there's obviously 01:35:45.406 --> 01:35:49.936 a lot of co, I don't even like the word comorbidity, let's say co-diagnoses. 01:35:50.056 --> 01:35:52.936 So someone might have visual impairment and down syndrome or 01:35:52.936 --> 01:35:54.616 visual impairment and autism. 01:35:54.646 --> 01:35:55.036 Okay. 01:35:55.366 --> 01:36:00.196 But when it's specifically the visual side, what do you feel that the 01:36:00.196 --> 01:36:02.656 equine really brings to the table? 01:36:04.846 --> 01:36:05.926 Lucy Dillon: Well, all of what you said. 01:36:06.571 --> 01:36:06.661 Yeah. 01:36:07.291 --> 01:36:08.281 Vestibular system. 01:36:08.281 --> 01:36:11.431 So your attention learning focus. 01:36:11.821 --> 01:36:18.211 Also again about the oxytocin, because if you think about it we produce cortisol 01:36:18.211 --> 01:36:23.701 when our body feels under threat and we have a heightened sensory sensory system. 01:36:24.121 --> 01:36:27.961 So any sensory processing issue is gonna give you a heightened sensory system. 01:36:27.961 --> 01:36:31.321 Now, a vision impairment is the biggest sensory processing issue you 01:36:31.321 --> 01:36:35.491 can have, you know, 90% of our senses are interpreted through our vision. 01:36:36.841 --> 01:36:42.121 And then also the biggest thing is the confidence and the spilling of that 01:36:42.331 --> 01:36:44.341 confidence in other parts of your life. 01:36:44.731 --> 01:36:48.121 You know, they, they, they get up on a horse like, what is 01:36:48.121 --> 01:36:50.161 a horse in the first place? 01:36:51.001 --> 01:36:55.241 And now you're up, you are up in the air, and and you're moving. 01:36:55.391 --> 01:36:58.721 You are also sometimes moving faster than you would move by yourself. 01:36:58.781 --> 01:37:00.701 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:37:00.751 --> 01:37:01.096 Lucy Dillon: Which is. 01:37:02.866 --> 01:37:07.186 The feeling, even just the feeling of that moving faster than you would maybe 01:37:07.186 --> 01:37:11.096 move by yourself spills into their confidence and their confidence in their 01:37:11.096 --> 01:37:15.296 body, their, their, all that perceptive input, the awareness in their body. 01:37:15.756 --> 01:37:20.736 Because again, as a child with a visual impairment, like, you know, if you 01:37:20.736 --> 01:37:24.576 think about it, development is slowed so much because of a visual impairment 01:37:24.786 --> 01:37:29.311 because site in causes development, you know, the first thing a baby does. 01:37:29.311 --> 01:37:29.471 Yeah. 01:37:29.471 --> 01:37:30.096 Rupert Isaacson: No, we are visual. 01:37:30.096 --> 01:37:31.056 We are visual creatures. 01:37:31.056 --> 01:37:31.686 We just are. 01:37:31.986 --> 01:37:33.246 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:37:33.756 --> 01:37:35.676 Lucy Dillon: The first thing a baby does is reach. 01:37:35.916 --> 01:37:36.186 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:37:36.186 --> 01:37:39.166 Lucy Dillon: And and if you don't have the vision impairment, if you have a 01:37:39.166 --> 01:37:40.606 vision impairment, you don't reach. 01:37:40.666 --> 01:37:40.786 Mm-hmm. 01:37:40.836 --> 01:37:43.896 You have a significant vision impairment, you're, you don't develop 01:37:43.896 --> 01:37:45.636 head and neck control as fast. 01:37:45.636 --> 01:37:45.726 Mm-hmm. 01:37:45.881 --> 01:37:46.041 Because. 01:37:46.671 --> 01:37:47.691 You don't raise your head. 01:37:48.231 --> 01:37:48.381 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:37:48.621 --> 01:37:51.026 Lucy Dillon: That delays walking, that delays crawling, you know, and, 01:37:51.026 --> 01:37:53.871 and well, it delays crawling, it delays sitting and walking and, and 01:37:53.871 --> 01:37:56.721 all the steps that, you know, the developmental steps to get to that. 01:37:57.081 --> 01:37:59.481 So we can work on the physical things as well, particularly 01:37:59.481 --> 01:38:00.711 with some of our preschoolers. 01:38:01.671 --> 01:38:05.561 You're working on that physical, you know, it, it's, you know, it's one side of using 01:38:05.561 --> 01:38:06.941 the horse is the movement of the horse. 01:38:06.941 --> 01:38:07.151 Yes. 01:38:07.151 --> 01:38:10.091 For the oxytocin, but also from a physiotherapy point of view. 01:38:10.091 --> 01:38:12.461 That movement of the horse, that three dimensional movement is the 01:38:12.461 --> 01:38:13.991 same movement pattern as walking. 01:38:15.041 --> 01:38:15.131 Right? 01:38:15.131 --> 01:38:17.201 So you are reinforcing and developing muscle memory 01:38:17.201 --> 01:38:18.521 through those walking patterns. 01:38:18.921 --> 01:38:22.041 So we do a lot of work with the preschoolers in child vision, 01:38:22.611 --> 01:38:25.401 and a lot of them also would be wheelchair users still at that point. 01:38:25.761 --> 01:38:28.891 Now they may not necessarily always be a wheelchair user or they may 01:38:28.891 --> 01:38:32.521 be a wheelchair user, but who then have developed sitting balance 01:38:32.521 --> 01:38:35.581 or they develop the ability to stand for transfers and things. 01:38:35.881 --> 01:38:38.701 But at that stage, at two and a half, three and a half years old, 01:38:38.701 --> 01:38:40.141 they're still wheelchair users. 01:38:40.381 --> 01:38:43.321 And so we are working, building up that muscle and that core strength. 01:38:44.581 --> 01:38:46.591 And that's when we quite, that's when we ride with them 01:38:46.681 --> 01:38:48.061 and hold onto them from behind. 01:38:48.061 --> 01:38:51.481 And what's so nice about that is that you can give and take the support 01:38:51.481 --> 01:38:56.101 as and when it's needed and you can lean back and let them work on their 01:38:56.101 --> 01:38:58.411 head and neck control and stuff. 01:38:58.891 --> 01:39:02.586 So there is, it's a huge benefit from a vision and PenPoint 01:39:02.586 --> 01:39:04.501 and the kids love it as well. 01:39:04.591 --> 01:39:08.221 You know, I rode a horse, like, how cool is that? 01:39:08.401 --> 01:39:10.541 If you you know, they, they love it. 01:39:11.051 --> 01:39:13.061 Rupert Isaacson: This is, this is I think what's often just not talked 01:39:13.061 --> 01:39:18.881 about, but we all know it within the whole et equ thing is it's just 01:39:18.881 --> 01:39:20.441 really, really cool to be with horses. 01:39:20.441 --> 01:39:21.371 It just is. 01:39:21.911 --> 01:39:26.201 And where that's worked to our detriment I think in our field is people say, 01:39:26.201 --> 01:39:27.971 well, you're just playing with ponies. 01:39:29.411 --> 01:39:30.161 To which. 01:39:30.686 --> 01:39:33.146 I've now, you know, I used to be defensive about that. 01:39:33.176 --> 01:39:33.746 No, we're not. 01:39:33.746 --> 01:39:35.006 We're doing all this scientific now. 01:39:35.006 --> 01:39:39.926 I'm like, you're right, we are, because that is quality of life. 01:39:40.136 --> 01:39:43.496 Now I can show you the science of what goes on in your brain, in your body 01:39:43.766 --> 01:39:45.656 when you have that quality of life. 01:39:45.656 --> 01:39:50.306 And there's a reason why many of the world's greatest thinkers have always 01:39:50.336 --> 01:39:52.226 have also been horsemen, by the way. 01:39:52.526 --> 01:39:54.146 Interesting correlation there. 01:39:54.776 --> 01:39:58.586 Because the other thing, of course, that horses demand from 01:39:58.586 --> 01:40:00.686 us is emotional regulation. 01:40:00.896 --> 01:40:04.046 We have to control our emotions 'cause we get scared up there. 01:40:04.136 --> 01:40:05.336 We get excited up there. 01:40:05.606 --> 01:40:07.586 We get this up there, we got that, get that up. 01:40:07.586 --> 01:40:10.166 They're exactly like the kid that you talked about who's head butting 01:40:10.166 --> 01:40:11.426 the horse when it's happening. 01:40:11.426 --> 01:40:14.426 And then they start to see the cause and effect and they realize that they 01:40:14.846 --> 01:40:18.536 need to modify their behavior in a way that they haven't had to around humans. 01:40:19.026 --> 01:40:24.276 All of these things go on, but the element of play, of course, within neuroscience. 01:40:24.921 --> 01:40:29.961 We, there's now no argument among neuroscientists that play and learning 01:40:30.411 --> 01:40:35.541 are so integral that if you take the element of play out, your learning is 01:40:35.541 --> 01:40:42.051 so impaired, even with a neurotypical kid, that it's almost pointless. 01:40:42.951 --> 01:40:45.891 The neuroscience is clear on this, but I think what's not 01:40:45.921 --> 01:40:48.201 really talked about is the joy. 01:40:49.731 --> 01:40:55.611 And if one is coming out of a situation that is un joyful for 01:40:55.611 --> 01:41:00.261 whatever reason, you know, there's that cliche, but it's so true. 01:41:00.291 --> 01:41:02.841 Money can't buy happiness, but it can buy horses, which is 01:41:02.991 --> 01:41:04.071 pretty much the same thing. 01:41:05.001 --> 01:41:08.241 But there is something innately joyful about the human 01:41:08.241 --> 01:41:09.351 interaction with the horses. 01:41:09.351 --> 01:41:13.731 They're not what do you see, you, you work with quite a 01:41:13.731 --> 01:41:15.921 few of your people over years. 01:41:18.681 --> 01:41:21.771 How do you see that joy component? 01:41:22.476 --> 01:41:23.646 Really creating change. 01:41:26.016 --> 01:41:31.686 Lucy Dillon: I think it just spills into everything that a kid does. 01:41:32.226 --> 01:41:32.436 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:41:33.096 --> 01:41:38.016 Lucy Dillon: And their overall confidence and then, and the joy the parents 01:41:38.016 --> 01:41:40.446 get from seeing their kid as well. 01:41:40.631 --> 01:41:41.051 Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm. 01:41:41.406 --> 01:41:42.546 Lucy Dillon: Is so lovely. 01:41:43.186 --> 01:41:46.396 I can think of one little girl who's who wasn't the pre school. 01:41:46.396 --> 01:41:48.766 She's in main, she's gone into mainstream school this year. 01:41:49.226 --> 01:41:51.536 And if anybody goes on the Child Vision website, there is the most beautiful 01:41:51.536 --> 01:41:56.606 video about her and Jessie, our Shetland pony, who Anya believes that Jessie 01:41:56.606 --> 01:41:59.456 came, especially for her, and she did come, especially for you to be honest. 01:42:00.006 --> 01:42:00.666 But she's still there. 01:42:00.996 --> 01:42:06.036 And the, the effect it had on her that she, she got the confidence 01:42:06.036 --> 01:42:08.766 to get on this pony 'cause it was a bit smaller than all the others. 01:42:09.426 --> 01:42:14.496 And how it just, then the confidence spiraled in everything from that. 01:42:14.931 --> 01:42:18.231 Speaking, being, interacting, everything. 01:42:18.901 --> 01:42:19.231 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, 01:42:19.981 --> 01:42:25.471 Lucy Dillon: and I suppose that's probably where you see it the most is, 01:42:25.471 --> 01:42:29.071 and then we see the way we work, our services, children come into the service. 01:42:29.941 --> 01:42:34.051 Royal children in revision impairment, they come into, if they're in the 01:42:34.051 --> 01:42:36.691 preschool and if they stay in the primary school, they can continue on. 01:42:36.751 --> 01:42:40.051 And then anybody with vision impairment is prioritized in our service. 01:42:40.371 --> 01:42:43.551 Anyone who applies, if they have a visual impairment, they are prioritized. 01:42:43.911 --> 01:42:47.271 But we see children, other children who come into the service, they, they'll 01:42:47.271 --> 01:42:50.091 come into the service, say maybe for six months or so, and then they go 01:42:50.091 --> 01:42:51.561 on to our return to service list. 01:42:51.591 --> 01:42:53.391 Otherwise, we'd never get through our waiting list. 01:42:53.391 --> 01:42:56.481 You know, we, we can't always got a waiting list. 01:42:56.691 --> 01:42:59.331 So we have a sort of rotational thing, which is again, partly why, 01:42:59.931 --> 01:43:02.391 who wants to train more people to do this so that then I can recommend 01:43:02.391 --> 01:43:03.741 other places for people to go to. 01:43:04.431 --> 01:43:04.551 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:43:04.661 --> 01:43:08.426 Lucy Dillon: But you see them, you just see them grow and develop and, and, yeah. 01:43:09.686 --> 01:43:11.186 Just get really into it. 01:43:12.116 --> 01:43:12.956 Rupert Isaacson: No, I, I agree. 01:43:13.016 --> 01:43:16.226 It, it, it, it's, I think what's often forgotten when one's dealing 01:43:16.226 --> 01:43:19.706 with special needs people is because of the way economics has shifted and 01:43:19.706 --> 01:43:24.806 the way technology has shifted, that people who would've been written off 01:43:25.526 --> 01:43:31.286 as economic participants, let alone policy makers, let alone politicians, 01:43:31.286 --> 01:43:37.076 let alone professors or whatever, educators, people with particularly 01:43:37.076 --> 01:43:41.936 the cognitive impairments, would've been completely written off from that. 01:43:42.206 --> 01:43:43.346 And that has changed. 01:43:44.216 --> 01:43:47.546 And now we know that you can have autism and be a university professor. 01:43:47.546 --> 01:43:48.476 Look at Temple Grandin. 01:43:48.866 --> 01:43:53.126 Or you can, you know, I mean, we, we just know it's a, a very different field now. 01:43:53.306 --> 01:43:56.126 And as AI develops and so. 01:43:57.431 --> 01:44:00.131 What I feel that people like you are doing really, is you're actually 01:44:00.131 --> 01:44:02.501 training the leaders of tomorrow. 01:44:02.501 --> 01:44:06.041 This isn't just therapy, a pony ride for some poor little kid who's then gonna go 01:44:06.251 --> 01:44:08.741 live in a group home and have no life. 01:44:10.391 --> 01:44:16.541 These people could very well be sitting on the board of Child Vision, you know, 01:44:17.141 --> 01:44:20.361 25 years from now as lawyers or whatever. 01:44:20.631 --> 01:44:27.411 Because of the cognitive breakthroughs, development, confidence, 01:44:27.651 --> 01:44:30.981 happiness, joy, neuroplasticity, 01:44:35.841 --> 01:44:42.651 physical abilities, you can never separate those from mental abilities that they 01:44:42.651 --> 01:44:44.301 would've gotten from their years with you. 01:44:45.861 --> 01:44:47.736 And I think I, I, I do, yeah. 01:44:48.951 --> 01:44:53.091 This is just often I think under, not thought through, I think by, you 01:44:53.091 --> 01:44:54.831 know, yet it's, it's getting better. 01:44:54.831 --> 01:44:55.521 But yeah, 01:44:57.081 --> 01:45:00.341 Lucy Dillon: I think more and more you see it more and more, you know, sort of 01:45:00.731 --> 01:45:08.666 non-traditional and very fun activities for children with disabilities are 01:45:08.671 --> 01:45:12.251 being seen as not just fun activities. 01:45:12.251 --> 01:45:15.371 They're being actually identified for what they achieve. 01:45:16.091 --> 01:45:16.241 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 01:45:16.271 --> 01:45:21.551 Lucy Dillon: Perhaps what it is it's that there, there is, whereas 01:45:21.551 --> 01:45:25.751 ly perhaps it was a separation between fun activities and therapies. 01:45:26.261 --> 01:45:26.561 Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely. 01:45:26.561 --> 01:45:29.981 Lucy Dillon: Now it's very blurred lines between the two and there is 01:45:29.981 --> 01:45:35.326 recognition of the value of the, the results of the fun activities. 01:45:35.386 --> 01:45:39.136 And you see, even in general education, you can see that change as well. 01:45:39.136 --> 01:45:39.346 A hundred 01:45:39.346 --> 01:45:39.526 Rupert Isaacson: percent. 01:45:39.576 --> 01:45:40.306 Lucy Dillon: So yeah, a 01:45:40.306 --> 01:45:40.651 Rupert Isaacson: hundred percent. 01:45:42.156 --> 01:45:42.876 You know? 01:45:42.906 --> 01:45:46.936 Yeah, just the, the other two languages that I speak French and German, 01:45:46.936 --> 01:45:50.596 or my German, it's not as good as it should be, but it's functional. 01:45:51.676 --> 01:45:53.146 I learned them on horseback. 01:45:53.446 --> 01:45:54.916 I learned them having the crack. 01:45:55.756 --> 01:45:59.446 I learned them doing things that I found intrinsically fun. 01:46:00.286 --> 01:46:03.676 I don't remember any Latin and Greek, which I did at school. 01:46:03.976 --> 01:46:04.636 Don't remember it. 01:46:04.666 --> 01:46:05.146 Nothing. 01:46:05.206 --> 01:46:06.376 Not, not, not a thing. 01:46:07.306 --> 01:46:08.116 There was no crack. 01:46:08.116 --> 01:46:09.526 There was no fun in it for me. 01:46:10.136 --> 01:46:11.906 The other two things I could do on horseback. 01:46:11.906 --> 01:46:16.716 So I then ended up in other countries doing them, exactly the same. 01:46:17.016 --> 01:46:18.816 So it is interesting. 01:46:18.816 --> 01:46:21.636 Of course, as you say now, within mainstream education, this is becoming 01:46:21.636 --> 01:46:26.616 something that people are looking at, but we're in, so are the early stages of it. 01:46:26.766 --> 01:46:31.836 And I, I don't know if yet the equine assisted people 01:46:31.836 --> 01:46:33.306 are getting the credit that. 01:46:33.726 --> 01:46:39.186 They deserve for the neuroplasticity, the brain development that they are 01:46:39.186 --> 01:46:42.246 giving through this joy and this fun. 01:46:42.756 --> 01:46:47.166 But with people like you doing your, your course, we have a 01:46:47.256 --> 01:46:51.156 sporting chance of getting that out there more into the mainstream. 01:46:51.156 --> 01:46:53.616 Of course, you are working with schools, so you are talking 01:46:53.616 --> 01:46:54.966 to young teachers about this. 01:46:55.176 --> 01:46:58.566 I wonder if people like you should actually be going into the not just 01:46:58.566 --> 01:47:00.876 the agricultural colleges where the people are doing the equine stuff, 01:47:01.176 --> 01:47:02.706 but the teacher training colleges. 01:47:02.706 --> 01:47:03.786 And I 01:47:03.786 --> 01:47:07.116 Lucy Dillon: would like to, the, the sort of, one of the biggest island 01:47:07.116 --> 01:47:10.086 primary school teach training colleges is literally gone off from our syndrome con. 01:47:10.206 --> 01:47:10.296 Mm-hmm. 01:47:10.716 --> 01:47:13.586 And I think now I feel more confident in my role. 01:47:13.586 --> 01:47:18.596 It is somewhere I'd like to reach out to, to talk about the method and 01:47:18.956 --> 01:47:23.936 'cause it's just so simple is not the right word, but it is simple. 01:47:24.296 --> 01:47:24.751 It's, it is 01:47:24.866 --> 01:47:28.076 Rupert Isaacson: what anything that is good and effective is simple actually. 01:47:28.676 --> 01:47:28.856 Yeah. 01:47:28.861 --> 01:47:28.991 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 01:47:28.991 --> 01:47:29.231 It's not. 01:47:30.071 --> 01:47:30.611 Science. 01:47:30.611 --> 01:47:34.511 And I think perhaps sometimes people think it should be rocket science 01:47:34.511 --> 01:47:36.431 to make it effective, but it's not. 01:47:36.581 --> 01:47:37.481 Rupert Isaacson: No, no. 01:47:37.481 --> 01:47:38.471 I so agree. 01:47:38.571 --> 01:47:43.101 I, I do think you need to do that because the people who are going to go on and 01:47:43.101 --> 01:47:47.851 be the school principals 20 years from now are just, are in college right now. 01:47:48.691 --> 01:47:49.411 And yeah. 01:47:49.831 --> 01:47:54.721 If we want to see that change, they need people like you and many of the people 01:47:54.721 --> 01:47:58.471 who are watching and listening to this podcast to go in there and inform them. 01:47:59.551 --> 01:47:59.911 Yeah. 01:48:00.121 --> 01:48:00.601 So 01:48:00.601 --> 01:48:02.881 Lucy Dillon: sorry, I mean, I think perhaps you say 01:48:06.091 --> 01:48:08.221 Rupert Isaacson: you get, is your, is your dog telling you it's time? 01:48:08.801 --> 01:48:09.161 Lucy Dillon: Yes. 01:48:09.371 --> 01:48:10.751 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, that they do that, don't they? 01:48:11.081 --> 01:48:11.381 Okay. 01:48:11.381 --> 01:48:13.631 Well that, that has brought us to about the two hour mark. 01:48:13.631 --> 01:48:14.801 So your dog is bang on. 01:48:15.221 --> 01:48:18.071 I would like you to go and make that approach then. 01:48:19.131 --> 01:48:20.691 That's my challenge to you, Lucy. 01:48:21.441 --> 01:48:25.791 And I will, I I will back it up obviously, and I'll get others to back it up. 01:48:26.361 --> 01:48:29.781 For example, as you know, we, we run now this neuroscience conference outta the 01:48:29.781 --> 01:48:34.041 University of Virginia every two years which is mostly aimed at pediatricians, 01:48:34.041 --> 01:48:38.421 but more and more it's also teachers coming in and educators, and we can 01:48:38.451 --> 01:48:41.241 bring some of these things to bear. 01:48:41.601 --> 01:48:46.131 So why don't you put together like a, a nuts and bolts presentation and 01:48:46.131 --> 01:48:53.361 we'll put together a little assault special Forces team to, to back you 01:48:53.361 --> 01:48:56.991 up and then just see, just start the conversation and see where it goes. 01:48:58.431 --> 01:48:59.181 Lucy Dillon: Yeah, yeah. 01:48:59.181 --> 01:49:02.261 I mean, we are, we are getting more and more involved in different would be 01:49:02.266 --> 01:49:03.916 the children's agency in this country. 01:49:04.276 --> 01:49:04.366 Mm-hmm. 01:49:04.556 --> 01:49:08.786 And we're getting funding through them for clients and stuff because it is, it's, you 01:49:08.786 --> 01:49:11.066 know, they are seeing the effects on the. 01:49:12.091 --> 01:49:14.761 Classes on the kids who are vulnerable. 01:49:15.001 --> 01:49:19.051 And, and so we are pushing that funding area all the time. 01:49:19.681 --> 01:49:24.301 And the health service executive, HSE here, they can't meet, you know, 01:49:24.301 --> 01:49:25.501 they're, they're under pressure as well. 01:49:25.561 --> 01:49:29.041 So we, we are offering an a nice solution. 01:49:29.761 --> 01:49:30.991 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, no, I agree. 01:49:31.411 --> 01:49:33.871 Because oddly enough, people say horses are expensive, but 01:49:33.871 --> 01:49:36.421 we can do for much cheaper what 01:49:36.421 --> 01:49:36.511 Lucy Dillon: Yes. 01:49:37.621 --> 01:49:39.931 Rupert Isaacson: They try and fail to do with all kinds of 01:49:39.931 --> 01:49:41.401 other therapies and interventions. 01:49:41.401 --> 01:49:41.671 Yeah, 01:49:42.001 --> 01:49:43.021 Lucy Dillon: yeah, exactly. 01:49:43.021 --> 01:49:47.741 So, myself and, and again, this task force have that's one of our aims over 01:49:47.741 --> 01:49:52.091 the next couple of years is to get the HSE to sort of sit up and listen and, and 01:49:52.091 --> 01:49:54.161 it's cross border, so the NHS as well. 01:49:54.211 --> 01:49:58.711 Sort of sit up and listen to our results and we are, I'm trying to, not 01:49:58.711 --> 01:50:02.011 very well, but I, when I remember I'm trying to collect data from parents 01:50:02.231 --> 01:50:06.046 and schools and but I know that Terry, she's starting a PhD, isn't, she 01:50:06.046 --> 01:50:07.906 has a PhD student there in Stuart's. 01:50:07.956 --> 01:50:08.166 Yeah. 01:50:08.861 --> 01:50:09.081 So, 01:50:10.476 --> 01:50:13.456 Rupert Isaacson: and we've got, got ke ke Sullivan on the case from University of 01:50:13.456 --> 01:50:18.786 Bournemouth and Alex Alex Northover doing it through Manchester Met University. 01:50:18.906 --> 01:50:19.686 So we're on it. 01:50:19.776 --> 01:50:20.256 Yeah. 01:50:20.496 --> 01:50:22.416 But we need to get that data out there. 01:50:22.506 --> 01:50:22.926 Yeah, yeah. 01:50:22.986 --> 01:50:23.196 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 01:50:24.816 --> 01:50:25.146 Great. 01:50:26.346 --> 01:50:28.806 Rupert Isaacson: Alright, well listen, it's been brilliant as always. 01:50:28.806 --> 01:50:30.636 Thank you so much for giving us the time. 01:50:31.326 --> 01:50:31.506 Thank you. 01:50:31.506 --> 01:50:33.426 People will need to, want to get in touch with you. 01:50:33.426 --> 01:50:36.786 So tell them how they do that and how they also, if they want to come 01:50:36.786 --> 01:50:39.726 on that course that you're doing for the equine professionals going 01:50:39.726 --> 01:50:41.706 into the equine assisted field. 01:50:42.796 --> 01:50:45.826 Lucy Dillon: So if they follow Child Visions on Instagram mm-hmm. 01:50:47.341 --> 01:50:49.051 Coming off about the course, literally next week. 01:50:49.361 --> 01:50:51.701 The next one we're running at the end of April. 01:50:51.791 --> 01:50:55.481 And then also if someone wants to contact me, they can just email me. 01:50:55.481 --> 01:50:58.121 Lucy Dillon at Child Vision, ie. 01:50:58.931 --> 01:51:00.041 Rupert Isaacson: Lucy Dillon. 01:51:00.231 --> 01:51:04.371 That's with a y Lucy with a y Dylan, D-I-L-L-O-N. 01:51:04.731 --> 01:51:08.361 All lowercase, I presume at Child Vision. 01:51:08.901 --> 01:51:09.111 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 01:51:09.801 --> 01:51:10.191 Rupert Isaacson: Ie. 01:51:10.821 --> 01:51:11.091 Lucy Dillon: Yeah, 01:51:11.301 --> 01:51:11.481 Rupert Isaacson: yeah. 01:51:11.541 --> 01:51:11.901 Island 01:51:12.441 --> 01:51:13.911 Lucy Dillon: on the Child Vision website. 01:51:13.996 --> 01:51:18.381 There's, there's the whole section about the Equine Assist activity service that 01:51:18.651 --> 01:51:18.921 Rupert Isaacson: great. 01:51:19.371 --> 01:51:23.481 And if they are wanting to do that course there, they're an 01:51:23.481 --> 01:51:24.621 equine professional wanting to go. 01:51:24.621 --> 01:51:26.091 Just give us the name of the course again. 01:51:26.841 --> 01:51:30.021 Lucy Dillon: It's called Equine Assist Activities Coaching Course, 01:51:30.561 --> 01:51:33.111 Rupert Isaacson: and it's now being accredited through lanre. 01:51:33.291 --> 01:51:37.191 So go and have a look at what Lanre is, lads, which is cross-border between 01:51:37.191 --> 01:51:39.561 the UK and Ireland accreditation. 01:51:40.041 --> 01:51:41.716 And if you're lucky, you will meet. 01:51:42.516 --> 01:51:48.786 The August and illustrious Lucy Dillon and her equally August and illustrious 01:51:48.786 --> 01:51:53.316 colleague Terry Brosnan at one of these courses to do, and, and lads do it 01:51:53.316 --> 01:51:55.896 because these people know their stuff. 01:51:55.896 --> 01:51:57.216 They've been at it for a long time. 01:51:57.276 --> 01:52:02.866 And frankly Lucy, you and Terry, you are the gold standard in this industry. 01:52:02.866 --> 01:52:03.346 You are. 01:52:04.066 --> 01:52:08.236 I should know 'cause I go around 40 countries and I am doing it all the time. 01:52:08.236 --> 01:52:09.526 There's lots of great people out there. 01:52:09.796 --> 01:52:12.856 You guys are up there in the gold standard and people need to come learn from you. 01:52:13.756 --> 01:52:13.936 Lucy Dillon: Great. 01:52:13.936 --> 01:52:16.426 Well, anyone's very welcome to come visit Child Vision at Anytime. 01:52:17.056 --> 01:52:18.196 Rupert Isaacson: Super great. 01:52:18.196 --> 01:52:19.186 Excuse for going Dublin. 01:52:19.701 --> 01:52:19.891 Lucy Dillon: Yep. 01:52:21.466 --> 01:52:22.006 All right then. 01:52:22.456 --> 01:52:22.966 Rupert Isaacson: Alright. 01:52:23.266 --> 01:52:24.226 Give my love to all. 01:52:24.316 --> 01:52:24.646 Okay. 01:52:24.736 --> 01:52:24.916 Lucy Dillon: Yeah. 01:52:24.946 --> 01:52:25.216 Rupert Isaacson: Cheers. 01:52:25.636 --> 01:52:25.726 Bye. 01:52:25.726 --> 01:52:26.146 Lucy Dillon: Bye. 01:52:26.422 --> 01:52:29.542 Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed today's conversation as much as I did. 01:52:30.082 --> 01:52:34.982 If you like what we're doing here, please do like, subscribe, tell a friend. 01:52:34.992 --> 01:52:39.162 It so helps us to get this valuable work done and the message of 01:52:39.162 --> 01:52:41.042 Equine Assisted Stuff out there. 01:52:41.192 --> 01:52:44.272 And if you're interested in more conversations, you might want to check 01:52:44.282 --> 01:52:46.962 out I'll live free ride free podcast. 01:52:47.352 --> 01:52:52.112 And if you'd like to support the podcasts, please go to rupertisakson. 01:52:52.162 --> 01:52:54.652 com and click on the Patreon link. 01:52:55.352 --> 01:52:58.872 If you're a professional in the equine assisted field or considering a career 01:52:59.222 --> 01:53:02.732 in the equine assisted field, you might want to check out our three 01:53:02.742 --> 01:53:08.502 certification programs, horseboy method, movement method, and taquin. 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