Because understanding great literature is better than trying to read and understand
yet another business book on the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books
Podcast, we commit to reading, dissecting, and analyzing the great
books of the Western canon. You know, those
books from Jane Austen to Shakespeare and everything else in
between that you might have fallen asleep trying to read in high
school. We do this for our listeners, the owner, the
entrepreneur, the manager, or the civic leader who doesn't have the time
to read, dissect, analyze, and leverage insights from
literature to execute leadership best practices in
the confusing and chaotic postmodern world. We all now
inhabit. Welcome to the rescuing of Western
Civilization at the intersection of literature
and leadership. Welcome to the Leadership Lessons from
the Great Books Podcast. Hello,
my name is Jesan Sorrells and this is the Leadership Lessons
from the Great Books podcast, episode number
172.
From the poet Nancy Wood comes this poem,
Many winters, published in
1974
and I the earth is all that lasts.
The earth is what I speak to when I do not understand my life,
nor why I am not heard. The earth answers me with the
same song that it sang from my fathers when their tears
covered up the sun. The earth sings a song of
gladness, the earth sings a song of praise. The
earth rises up and laughs at me each time that I
forget how Spring begins with winter and
death begins with birth.
The themes of birth, death,
tears, praise, gladness,
life, and being heard or not
being heard buried within this poem from
Nancy Wood lie directly below, around
and cut through the history of the book
that we are going to introduce today.
History as we have covered it on this podcast is the long human
story of beginnings and, inevitably,
endings. And there are no more bitter endings in
the history of the settling of the North American continent than
the ending of the great Sioux nation that once ruled the Great Plains
of the United States until the early part of the
20th century. This history
has been documented more extensively over the last 50 years than
in the previous 100 years. As a result, we can learn
some. Important lessons from studying this history
about leadership and unveiling the
challenges that can arise as the inevitable
close of a civilization
today. On this episode of the podcast, this
introductory episode of the podcast, we will be
introducing and discussing multiple themes from
the Earth Is all that Lasts by Mark
Lee Gardner, Leaders
the earth indeed is all that lasts.
You and I and every great civilization you know
will one day pass into.
The halls of history.
Foreign.
So, as usual, when we introduce a
book and its themes, I want to talk about the Earth Is all
that Lasts by Mark Lee Gardner, and then I'm going
to discuss. We're going to get into the literary life
of Mark Lee Garner in our second section, and we
will go into some dominant themes that I see
in the third and fourth section
of our podcast today, and then we'll talk
about some conclusions towards the back end of the show.
So when you open up and I have the paperback version of the Earth is
All that Lasts, it was published in.
In 2022 and
was. The version that I have was published by Harper Collins
Books. So of course it's. It is a.
It is a copyrighted work. So we won't be reading directly from. From
the book, but Mark Lee Gardner has a
long publishing history, writing
about the history of the American
West. Now, when you open the book, you see a map
that shows all of the homeland
of Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull. By the way, the
subtitle of this book, the Earth is All that Lasts.
The subtitle is Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull in the Last Stand of the
Great Sioux Nation. When you open up the book,
you do see a map of the territories that are
covered in this book and the battles that extend from
Montana and down into Kansas and then of
course, east into. Into Minnesota, um, and
even as far as far southeast as
Missouri at Fort Leavenworth. This was
the contested territory, the Dakota Territory, the Montana Territory,
the Wyoming Territory, particularly the Montana Tour Territory,
where massive battles occurred that Sitting Bull
and Crazy Horse and the Lakota and the Sioux were involved
in the. The Battle of, of the Yellowstone in
1872, the Battle of the Tongue river in
1873, the Battle of the Powder river in
1876. Let's see the.
The Grattan fight in 1854.
Massacre. Massacre Canyon that occurred in
1818. And of course,
probably the most famous battle that the
Lakota and the Sioux were involved in in the Montana
Territory against General George Armstrong Custer.
The Battle of the Bighorn. I'm sorry,
not the Battle of Horn, but. Well, yes, the Battle of the Bighorn, but then
also the Battle of Little Bighorn in
1876. The forts
are also noted on this map. Fort Abraham Lincoln, Fort Rice,
Fort Yates, Fort Randall, Fort Leavenworth, as I already mentioned, Fort
Laramie, Fort Phil Kearny Fort
Fort Reno. And of course, a lot of the
battles focused around the. The area
in the western Montana Territory
and going into the Dakota Territory of the Black
Hills, which were considered to be a sacred area
by the Lakota. The table of contents is
organized into 14 chapters with an extensive epilogue
as well as an extensive set of acknowledgments
around the American Indian informants, the folks that he talked to in
the history that he gathered, Notes, resources, and an extensive index.
Matter of fact, the supporting information for
this book numbers at probably 200
pages. Each chapter covers different.
Covers different aspects of the interactions between the
Lakota, the Sioux and other
native American tribes, including the Oglalas, the hunk
papas, and so on and so on. The Pawnee, the
Cherokee, the Cheyenne,
though, all those folks are all covered in this. In
this book. And, and like I said, There's 14 chapters, each
one starting with a particular quote that frames the
chapter. And we open with
the idea of who Sitting bull
was, how he led the. The Lakota.
And the lakota consisted of seven
western Sioux tribes. So I already mentioned the
ogalalas and the Hunkpapas. There were the. The mini
conjos, the siya sapas, the two kettle,
sans arc and brulee. There were also
yanktonais and Santees who were a middle and
eastern sioux, and then there were the northern and southern cheyennes
who were the friends and the allies of the Lakotas.
The war chief of the
oglala was, of course, crazy horse.
And the way that the leadership was set up, and
we'll talk a little bit more about this later on today, but. But the way
that the leadership was set up was. It was basically
sitting bull was sort of the. The. The chief or the, the
head general, such as it were, of the lakota. And
crazy horse was a trusted lieutenant. Of course,
the immigrants, the white settlers coming west in
search of gold or just a new place to live
that wasn't in the east. The newspapers that report
reported on these two men and their tribes and even the
u. S. Cavalry and the u. S. Government didn't really
recognize or acknowledge the distinction between these
two men until much too late.
And that would, of course, set the table or.
Or continue. If you look at the long history of
native tribes and their interactions with the United States government,
that would either continue or set the table for future
interactions, particularly after the war
drums had stopped beating.
So let's move on and talk about the literary life of Mark Lee
Gardner, the author of the Earth is all that
lasts. A native of Missouri, Mark Lee gardner
has researched and written about the American west since he was in
high school. During his college years, he spent summers as a
seasonal park ranger at bentz old fort national historic
site, Colorado, and Harpers ferry national historical park, west
Virginia. He also spent one summer as a Mary moody
northern graduate fellow at the stonewall Jackson House in
Lexington, Virginia. Mark has
written a number of critically acclaimed and award winning books from material
culture studies such as Wagons for the Santa Fe Trade, from the University
of New Mexico Press in the year 2000 to his best selling nonfiction
titles for HarperCollins including as are listed
in the Earth Is all that Lasts to Hell on a Fast Horse the
Untold Story of Billy the Kid and Pat Garrett
Rough Riders, Theodore Roosevelt, His Cowboy Regiment and the Immortal Charge Up
San Juan Hill Wagons for the Santa Fe Trade, which we
already talked about the Mexican War Correspondence of Richard
Smith Elliot which he co wrote with Mark Simons
and brothers on the Santa Fe and Chihuahua
Trails, Edward James Glasgow and William Henry Glasgow,
1846-1840. So clearly he's written
a lot about again the American west and has a passion
for writing what fundamentally
are journalistic takes on the history
of the American West.
As an authority on the American West, Mark has frequently been
an on air expert for national broadcasts and cable
networks, public radio and of course for numerous podcasts.
No, we did not get him on the podcast for
this episode today. We just didn't have
the time. Mark's books and articles have earned him multiple
awards and recognition not only
nationally but increasingly internationally.
And in addition to his research and writing, Mark is an award winning musician
and performer specializing in the historic music of the
American West. And there's going to be more books coming from from
this man. If the Earth Is all that Lasts is any
indication of where he is going in the future and his
passion for writing, I would strongly
recommend that you pick up this book if you want to
if you want to understand and you want to get
a deeper appreciation for the history of the American
west, particularly the history of the battles between the
Native American tribes and the tribal peoples of the American west and
the US Cavalry. And if you want to get a rounder
sense of exactly what was going on during
this time historically from from a
journalistic perspective. By the way, Mark Lee
Gardner's writing follows on from the writing that we covered in
a previous episode around Sebastian Younger and his
reportage in his book War.
But he's not quite a historian. He's not quite full John
Keegan First World War, who we also covered.
Nor is he an individual who directly experienced
obviously the wars and battles and fights about which he is
passionate about writing about and I said about a lot
there in the in the late 19th century.
He's not an Ernest Hemingway who's writing A Farewell to
Arms as a veteran, you know, of the the war
that he is that he is writing about. So he,
he is a journalist in the. In the realm of
that, or he writes in a journalistic style in the realm of that. That
Sebastian Younger space. But he's chasing a
deeper truth, I believe. And that is reflected reflected in some of the
themes that are in. In this book.
So the, the major chapter themes in the Earth is All
that Lasts really focus around three
sort of central areas. So the first area is
the ways in which the
Lakota were organized, right?
The. The Western Sioux tribes, how they organized, how they fought,
how they engaged with the 7th Cavalry, the ways in which they
learned from battling not only the 7th Cavalry,
but battling the other cavalry that were sent against them, how they
perceived their American
their American counterparts, and also
how they perceived the flow of immigrants
westward. The various tribes perceive this very
differently. There's an idea in one of the
themes inside of the Earth is All that Lasts that Gardner explores
beautifully, is this idea that even among the tribes,
there were those who wanted to create treaties
with the government, the United States
government, and there were those who did not. And Sitting Bull
and Crazy Horse represented those who did not want to, who were
anti treaty. And folks like Red
Cloud and others were folks who were
pro treaty who believed, as Red Cloud says
deep into the book, that the white men were going to be coming anyway,
so it would be a good idea to do some kind of deal with
them. The other
kind of theme that jumps out from,
from the Earth is All that Lasts is the theme of a
warrior culture among the. The Lakota particular,
particularly among young male Lakotas.
And many young male Lakotas
desired yes to. To trade with.
With the. The forts that were placed on the
frontier in the west by the US Government to
protect immigrant trades and westward settlement and westward
movement. Gold prospectors, miners,
eventually later on, folks who were surveying for.
For the railroads that were going to be going through the Dakota,
Montana and Wyoming territories. But also
there were, among the young men, there were Lakotas
who sought the prestige and
the status of engaging in
warfare. And this is a major theme
throughout all of the Earth is All that Lasts.
And there's a quote at the start of chapter
seven, too Many Tongues, that sort of exemplifies this right.
That was delivered from an interpreter named Mitch Boyer,
who was a mixed blood. Santee, July 27,
1867. And I quote, he said this.
There are a number of chiefs who I believe would make peace, but
the young men won't let them. In place of chiefs
controlling the young men, the young men control
them. And this is, this is the thing
that you begin to see and this is one of the major themes, like I
said, that Garner focuses on in his, in his book
and it dominates. Oh gosh. A good, a good
two thirds of the. Of the narrative. Then
the back end of the book talks about what happens after the war is over,
right? What happened to Sitting Bull, what
happened to Crazy Horse, what, what happened
to not only the Lakota but the Cheyenne,
the Arapaho and of course as the white
soldiers were referred to, the, the blue coats, right.
And the turn of events
that occurred in order at the end of the
tribal wars that, that encouraged or not encouraged,
but that motivated Sitting Bull to go over the border into
Canada, right, And then to come back across the border
that, that caused Crazy Horse to,
to lose his life,
Right. These sort of events were precipitated
by the nature of the close of the
American west and the nature of the
acts that were created by the, the government that
created reservations and then how those acts were
gone back on and were reneged on by the US
Government. So
the Earth is All that last. Contains a lot of history about not only
the native tribes and how they interacted with each other, but, but also
how they were perceived by others, including
the general public as well as the U.S. government.
And then of course the demands that were made on them
to move from being free roaming Plains
Indians to being,
to being individuals who were bound by civilization
and being threatened, thrust into becoming
part of this newly expanding and
confident country.
So in thinking about the Earth is All that
lasts, one of the early
dominant themes that penetrates
the entire book is this idea that can be
encapsulated by a line from,
interestingly enough,
Patrick Stewart playing playing
Captain Picard in Star Trek the Next Generation.
Everything good must come to an end.
The line that separates tragedy from triumph runs
throughout human history. And I talked a little bit about this in my opening
Civilizational end is. Is always a terrible thing.
And the native tribes in the. On the
North American continent and on the South American continent had
been for better or worse tribal
civilizations at one height or another. From the
Aztecs, the Mayas and the Incas in Mexico, Central America and
South America all the way to the
Cherokee and even the well name
of the Cherokee sorry, the. All the way to
the, the tribes that were in north
eastern, the northeastern part of the United States when the,
the, the Pilgrims and the, the Puritans showed up
at Plymouth Rock or and Virginia way back
in the early part of the
17th century. Up until that
point, native peoples had been on the North American and South American
continents for about a thousand years. And they had
built civilizations such as where they had built
societies, they had built cultures with their own
customs, their own languages, and of
course their own differences, which of course led to
warfare between them
and led to other types of
problems. But when civilizations collide, and we've
talked about this before on this podcast, one civilization
is going to inevitably triumph over the
other for a whole variety of different reasons. And
you see the final triumph of European
civilization over the native tribes
in the Earth is all that lasts.
And that is the line that separates
tragedy from triumph. The fact is,
the adaptations that make some societies, cultures and peoples leap
forward and the adaptations that make some societies and cultures and
peoples fail to leap, this is all part of the tragic
nature of humanity and the tragic nature, the tragic
reading of history. This fact of history,
of course, reads as deeply unfair to our wealthy
post modern middle class ears
listening as they do from a place of post industrial material
abundance and yet deep spiritual
hollowness. As the character
Alejandro portrayed by Benicio del Toro intoned in the movie
Sicario, another movie about
apocalyptic cultural endings and their knock on effects. And I
quote, nothing will make sense to your American ears
and you will doubt everything that we do, but in the end you will understand,
close quote. Nothing about
the removal of the native
tribes, nothing about the battles between the cavalry and
the native tribes, nothing about the
reneging of Washington on,
on treaties, nothing about the treatment
of those tribes from the
17th century all the way for 300 years,
all the way to the beginning of the 20th century,
nothing about that rings as fair or
reasonable or makes any sense to our ears
now. And we
doubt everything that our predecessors did.
And even with all that doubt and lack of understanding, we still
feel guilty. And that guilt in and of
itself is tragic.
It's all tragedy at the bottom of it. And this is something
that is reflected in the Earth is all
that lasts. The warrior
culture of the tribal peoples of the North American Great Plains came
to a warrior's end. And a warrior's end
always involves violence. And this is something else
that we struggle to wrap our arms around because we
struggle to wrap our arms around the mere fact of violence
and how that is a tool that is used in order
to, well, quite frankly make people do things that
they don't want to do. As leaders,
we can little afford to to
wallow in guilt or wallow in lack
of understanding, or even turn our eyes
away from the things that we need to see in history.
Instead, we must embrace those Things
embrace the tragic view of human nature and the tragic view of
human history and figure out how to integrate that tragic
view into the realities we see in front of us, in
our families, in our communities, and even in our
workplaces today.
One of the things that you see in the Earth is All that Lasts
by Mark Lee Gardner is the
a couple of different ideas that run parallel to each other and
actually inform each other. So
Sitting Bull as a leader, was
a careful and judicious person
who, while he did act when he
was motivated to act, actually thought about his
actions and seemed to have put. Seemed to have placed a lot of
consideration and deliberation behind his actions. Whereas Crazy
Horse was much more impulsive, much more freewheeling,
and much more likely to inspire people, particularly
young Lakota warriors, to action through his
impulsivity.
These two different types of leadership obviously combined together
and made the Western Sioux
a nightmare for folks like Phil
Sheridan, William
Tecumseh Sherman, and, of course, George
Armstrong Custer. Now,
in warfare, there is an idea, and
it is an idea that does matter. And we saw this idea reflected also
in. In Sebastian Junger's book War,
also in John Keegan's book the First World
War, and any other book that we've read about War. I mean, even about Face.
We see this reflected when writing about war
and when writing about the quote, unquote, sides
in a war, there's always
more information, right? More documentation of the motives,
the thought process and the results of those
motives and thought processes on the battlefield from one side than
from another. So if we are writing about, or if we're
thinking about what happened in the Corn Valley, Coringal
Valley In Afghanistan between 2007 and
2009, the first person
reporting that Sebastian Younger did on
that is going to be reflective of him being embedded with
the US Military there, right? Is not going to be
reflective of him being embedded with the Taliban or Taliban fighters.
Thus, we will not know or we will have very little information on the ground
about what the Taliban fighters are thinking, what their motives are, or any of
that kind of information. Same thing with the Earth is all the last same thing.
When we talk about the battles between the tribal peoples of the
American west and the U.S. government, the representatives and the military
of the U.S. government, except
in this case in the Earth is all that lasts, one of the major themes
that comes out is Gardner's attempt to gather
both sides, right? To gather as much data and information
as he can and to present it in as orderly a fashion as
he can about what both sides were thinking during the course
of this war. The deeper idea
that he is seeking to expound upon, the deeper idea
that he is seeking to expound, explore, is an idea I think, that
we don't talk too much about on this show, but it is a theme that
definitely jumps out. And the theme is that the enemy
gets a vote. Too often
in warfare, when we only look at one
side, we look at the side of those that won the war
and we forget that there are people on the other
side, whatever that side may be, who also
have their own perspective on winning and
losing. And in the Earth is all that Lasts. From the
invasion of Good Horse Grass country, the chapter focused on that all the
way to the chapter focused on the acts of Thieves, Land of
Uncertainty, Soldiers coming with their heads down, which
tells about the battle of Little Bighorn and the absolute decimation
of the arrogant George Armstrong Custer, A Winter
War all the way to the end of Freedom and Ghosts.
Gardner attempts, as a main theme in his book
to weave in multiple perspectives. That way we get a more
global understanding of exactly what was
happening during this period of time in American
history.
So what are we to take as leaders from the Earth is all that
Lasts, Crazy Horse, Sitting Bull, and the last stand of the Great
Sioux Nation? What are we to take from this book that
is extensively researched, lovingly written, with,
with a high attention to detail, and a fidelity
to not only the facts, but also a fidelity
to getting all the facts correct? What
are we to take if we read this book, from
that we can apply to challenges that we may be
having in our own present time? What can history
teach us? Well, I think one
of the major pieces from this book
goes back to this idea that I explored a little bit previously
about taking a tragic view of history.
Right. Everything good must come to an end.
But there also is an idea in here that
as leaders, we must not make
the mistake that a lot of leaders make
in reading the correct books,
reading the right books, but learning the wrong lessons.
So for instance, we kind of explored this a little bit when we were reading
our science fiction books. Everything from Robert Heinlein
to Philip K. Dick, Ray Bradbury to Isaac
Asimov, and one of the things that we realized, one of the things that
we explored with our co hosts when reading those books, was that
these books, the science fiction books that I mentioned in the science fiction authors,
had influenced a lot of the thinking, the
current thinking of our tech elite
in Silicon Valley, the ways in which tech bros,
quote unquote, think about artificial intelligence,
or the simulacra of social media,
the ways in which they are building our cyber driven
future and the ways in which robotics and algorithms
may show up, are currently showing up and may show up in the future
to impact our lives. The tech bros are reading these books. They
are inspired by these ideas of the future,
shiny, metallic and clean future.
But they are learning, or they have learned the wrong lessons.
From Sam Altman to Mark Andreessen, from
Mark Zuckerberg to Elon Musk.
And when they learn these wrong lessons and head out
into the world to bring to fruition, to bring to
reality the technological wizardry they read about when they were
powerless and perhaps even potentially picked upon teenagers,
they incorporate all of that
emotional nonsense into their
reading of these books and miss the larger
lessons. And so, as leaders, we don't want to fall into
that same trap when we read history.
We must learn all the correct, hard, and even
deeply unpleasant lessons that
violate our deeply held shibboleths
about how things should be or how they ought to be.
And then we must decide to accept or reject those lessons,
knowing, of course, realizing as mature
leaders, as adult leaders, as serious leaders, that
there will always be consequences for such acceptance or
rejection. And of course, understanding that
as leaders we cannot, we should not, and we will not
be able to avoid accountability.
The facts of history. And this is why we read historical books on this
podcast. The facts of history are hard taskmasters
indeed, which is why many people avoid reading history.
Not because they don't want to know information about the past that may
disrupt a myth that they may have in their head
that's too easy and too dismissive
a a prescription. I think the reason people
don't read history and the reason people struggle with
historical understanding is because it's really,
really hard to deal with
the facts of history as they were.
Because you can't go back and change them, right? You can't go back and get
a redo. For all of our human power,
for all of our technological wizardry, we still can't travel back
to the past and remake it into our vision of the current
world, which of course in the past would be a vision of the future.
We merely have to live with the idea
that people in the past made different decisions than we made
with the limited information which they thought was maximal at the time
that they had. And those decisions had
consequences. And there was accountability.
And this, this is what makes the facts of
history hard. And we can't
dismiss it. We can't refuse to incorporate the lessons from history.
Instead, we have to learn, we have to ignore. We have
to. We have to harden our minds
to embrace those hard lessons and embrace
those hard facts. That way we
can continue to make mature decisions
into a future where other people
will judge us.
Finally, as we wrap up our
podcast here today, our episode here today, our introductory episode
to to the Earth is all that Lasts by
Mark Lee Gardner. By the way, I would encourage you to check out
the next episode, episode number 173, where we talk with
my co host Tom Libby about one
of the dominant themes that is in this book,
the dominant theme of young men and what you do with their energies
in a warrior culture,
particularly when that
warrior culture is on the decline, and then how
that translates into our current postmodern
era where we have trouble
incorporating the energies of young men
into modern world, where glory,
particularly martial glory, is hard to come by. So check out
episode number 173 after
you listen to this episode. So my final thought
today is on this idea of the
Apocalypse, the
apocalypse which many of us who still
carry around the residue of the Christian worldview
that used to permeate the west through and through.
Many of us associate the word apocalypse with the book of Revelation
in that horry old book that I always talk about on this show,
the Bible, that last wild book with the
visions of John in it.
Apocalypse, though that word that
sometimes that last book of the Bible is entitled
comes from the ancient Greek word apocalypsis.
And the ancient Greek word means revelation or a
revealing. The
idea that no one really tells people
is that revelations or disclosures or revealings
are always happening. New information is
always coming to the forefront. Either new information about a
historical past or new information about a current
era, or new information that will influence decisions that are to be made
made in the future. So here's some new
information. The lessons that
leaders can glean, or one of the lessons that leaders can glean from the end
of the Sioux Nation are lessons
that reveal or disclose just how
majestic and doomed the Sioux Nation
was as a people. On
this show. I have asked the question previously with our
conversation that we also had with Tom Levy around Ernie Lapointe's book
that was basically a biography, a sourced
biography of Sitting Bull. I asked this question in this episode, in that
episode, and you should go listen. I believe it's episode number 157
about not only the Sioux Nation, but about all the tribal peoples of the
Great Plains, the upper Great Plains Plains in America. I asked
this question, could the United States have become what it is now
without the destruction of the various Native American nations and peoples in the
Midwest, and we
battered. Tom and I batted that question around in episode number
157, and we never really got to an answer to that question.
And I think that
the answer to that question is, of course, a
revealing one, a a
disclosing one, a dare I say,
apocalyptic answer
from the arrival of the first European in the
early six. Or not the early this, the later, well,
the middle part of the 16th century, all the way
to the bitter end of the
tribal wars in the 1890s,
the final depositing of the remnants of
Native American peoples onto reservations.
The bitter end of civilization to make space for
the next civilization was probably almost fait
accompli. That apocalypse,
that ending is one that should give us
pause, because leaders
understand that there are wise. Leaders
understand that there are always three parts to
every life, just like there are three parts to
a story. And civilizations follow along with these three
parts as well. There's a beginning, a birth,
a middle, and an end.
And we struggle in our society and culture
with a fear of death. We fear endings,
both secular and Christian. We
fear a climate change apocalypse in the same way that
we fear an apocalypse of Jesus
returning. And maybe this is not unique to the
West. Matter of fact, I don't think it probably is. I think that all
civilizations on the planet, all peoples at the individual
level, to some degree or another, fear death,
which is what drives us to maximize
our lives in various socially
normed and culturally bounded ways.
And leaders, leaders have to understand
that everything comes to an end.
But the end can be a revealing for a new beginning,
an apocalypse, such as it were, that will open
up new doors and create new opportunities
for the next people who follow on
when we are gone.
And well, that's it for
me for. Listening to the Leadership Lessons from the Great Books
podcast today. And now that you've made it this far,
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other good ones out there. At least that's
what I've heard. All right, well,
that's it for me.