WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:11.906 --> 00:00:17.966 jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading. 00:00:18.476 --> 00:00:19.976 I'm your host, Jethro Jones. 00:00:19.976 --> 00:00:22.676 You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones. 00:00:35.271 --> 00:00:39.111 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Welcome to Transformative Principal and Resilient Schools. 00:00:39.111 --> 00:00:42.171 We're gonna do a simulcast with this podcast interview. 00:00:42.231 --> 00:00:45.561 Uh, today I am honored to be joined by Erin Bailey. 00:00:45.561 --> 00:00:51.921 She is, the Reading is Fundamental Vice President of Literacy Programs and Research. 00:00:52.251 --> 00:01:01.041 She brings deep curriculum and instructional expertise to her position, which includes serving as a subject matter expert in developing, curating, and managing content and professional learning. 00:01:01.386 --> 00:01:15.216 For educators and families on learning, there's a bunch more stuff about her that I encourage you to go check out on the show notes at either Transformative Principal dot org or resilient schools.com you're listening to this. 00:01:15.276 --> 00:01:24.156 And, uh, she also was on Transformative Principal in February of 24, uh, where we talked about helping families find joy in reading. 00:01:24.441 --> 00:01:31.491 And I'm really excited about this continued partnership with R and with, uh, NAMI and with Macy's. 00:01:31.491 --> 00:01:41.391 So this is a fun opportunity to, focus on, uh, Macy's, um, success one, is that what it's called? 00:01:42.081 --> 00:01:42.471 Hold on. 00:01:42.951 --> 00:01:45.471 I, I close the tab and now I can't find it again. 00:01:45.471 --> 00:01:46.131 There it is. 00:01:47.001 --> 00:01:47.451 Just a sec. 00:01:49.461 --> 00:02:00.981 All right, so this is, uh, we're grateful to Macy's for supporting RIF and NAMI in this, uh, mission, everyone, which is a social commitment focused on creating brighter future. 00:02:01.401 --> 00:02:14.991 And so now through September 14th, if you, go buy something at Macy's and you round up, then a donation will be made to RIF and NAMI to help give literacy and mental health resources to. 00:02:15.321 --> 00:02:16.821 Kids all across the country. 00:02:16.821 --> 00:02:18.171 So we're excited about that. 00:02:18.561 --> 00:02:22.191 And they've been doing this for 22 years now, partnering with rif. 00:02:22.191 --> 00:02:24.416 So, uh, anything you want to add there, Aaron? 00:02:25.926 --> 00:02:29.796 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Um, we're just grateful for the continued partnership with Macy's. 00:02:29.796 --> 00:02:43.866 Through all of the work that we've done with Macy's, we've been able to create engaging content, be able to provide turnkey solutions, um, and impact children's reading in some of the lowest income communities across the country. 00:02:45.096 --> 00:02:45.366 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah. 00:02:45.396 --> 00:02:47.586 Thank you, and we're excited about that. 00:02:47.586 --> 00:02:50.586 If you wanna learn more about that, go to macy's dot com slash purpose. 00:02:51.066 --> 00:02:54.696 Uh, today, however, we're gonna talk about a bunch of things around literacy. 00:02:54.696 --> 00:03:04.806 If you've been following along, first we did a, an interview or a conversation with Barb Solich and Aaron Bailey, uh, on their own. 00:03:04.806 --> 00:03:07.986 And then I interviewed Barb, and now I'm interviewing Erin. 00:03:08.286 --> 00:03:17.856 Those are all linked in the show notes as well, so you can go check out those other, um, episodes and, uh, they're all out now, so you can go listen to them. 00:03:18.216 --> 00:03:34.026 And, uh, one of the things that we talked about, uh, just a little tiny bit before, um, was, uh, how important it is for building connections and using reading books to help with that. 00:03:34.026 --> 00:03:36.066 Aaron, do you wanna talk a little bit about that? 00:03:36.456 --> 00:03:39.066 Building connections, uh, by reading with people. 00:03:40.201 --> 00:03:40.681 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Sure. 00:03:40.681 --> 00:03:49.111 So I think that, um, often when we think about, uh, reading, we're just thinking about the language component of it. 00:03:49.111 --> 00:03:53.846 So, and, and that's super beneficial to kids hearing language. 00:03:54.541 --> 00:04:05.136 I. Learning vocabulary words, but there's actually two other components too, um, that I like to think of in terms of a teacher or a parent or a caregiver reading to a child. 00:04:05.496 --> 00:04:09.636 Um, and that's the material component and the affective component. 00:04:09.636 --> 00:04:13.356 So the language component is, is pretty obvious. 00:04:13.746 --> 00:04:23.766 The material component or the physical component includes proximity, uh, special time with your child if you are reading to an infant or a toddler. 00:04:24.456 --> 00:04:28.836 In addition to hearing that language, they're also seeing your lips move. 00:04:28.836 --> 00:04:31.446 That's a very material aspect of reading. 00:04:31.746 --> 00:04:42.336 Um, and we talked a little bit about sitting side by side with a child while reading, and I love that you can also sit face to face with a child, especially a very young child when you're reading to them. 00:04:42.336 --> 00:04:43.536 And that way they can. 00:04:44.031 --> 00:04:45.381 See your lips moving. 00:04:45.561 --> 00:04:53.361 That's how they're going to learn how to move their own, uh, lips to pronounce those, those words and make that connection between, uh, speech and print. 00:04:53.361 --> 00:04:54.621 So that's the material component. 00:04:54.861 --> 00:04:59.961 And then the other one is the affective component where we can think of that feel good, uh, component. 00:04:59.961 --> 00:05:07.401 I shared a little bit in the previous podcast about mothers reading to their, uh, newborns in the nicu. 00:05:07.791 --> 00:05:10.581 Um, and how that was not only beneficial for the. 00:05:10.886 --> 00:05:13.646 Infants, uh, but it was beneficial for the mothers. 00:05:13.646 --> 00:05:14.636 It, uh. 00:05:15.396 --> 00:05:18.156 It helped the mothers with their postpartum depression. 00:05:18.156 --> 00:05:24.156 They had lower rates of postpartum depression after they were reading to their, uh, children in the, in the nicu. 00:05:24.456 --> 00:05:30.756 Additionally, they've done some research on preschool children being read aloud to um, and they've. 00:05:30.796 --> 00:05:41.716 Found that uh, when children, young children are listening to, uh, books being read aloud to them, they release oxytocin, which is that, uh, chemical that makes you feel good and happy. 00:05:41.716 --> 00:05:49.246 So tho those are kind of the three main components I think of when I think of reading aloud is the, um, language component. 00:05:49.246 --> 00:05:51.736 The material component, and the affective component. 00:05:52.761 --> 00:05:57.681 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: And that's a very, uh, like scientific way to explain that. 00:05:57.711 --> 00:06:02.841 But there's, there's also this emotional or spiritual connection that you have with someone as you. 00:06:03.486 --> 00:06:07.686 Are doing that together, which probably fits into those material and affective components. 00:06:07.716 --> 00:06:16.926 Uh, also, but those are things that they're just not, um, they're easy to overlook and not think that that's what we're doing it for. 00:06:16.986 --> 00:06:22.971 But some of, uh, the best experiences that I've had with my kids have been. 00:06:23.421 --> 00:06:33.891 Reading books with them and looking back on that time and seeing them understand something for the first time and, and experiencing it for the first time is, is always really cool. 00:06:33.891 --> 00:06:39.951 And sometimes it does get annoying when they're like, read this same page again and again and again. 00:06:40.251 --> 00:06:41.416 Uh, what's your advice there? 00:06:42.441 --> 00:06:43.581 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: I, I love that. 00:06:43.611 --> 00:06:48.501 Um, and when you were saying that, I thought of a phrase, I do it for the aha moments. 00:06:48.876 --> 00:06:54.486 I think that's what you were describing as those kind of light bulb moments when when your kids, um, light up. 00:06:54.486 --> 00:06:56.556 And I used to say that to myself when I was a teacher. 00:06:56.556 --> 00:06:58.926 I'd do it for the aha uh, moments. 00:06:58.926 --> 00:07:05.976 But, um, your question about, uh, can you repeat the question? 00:07:05.976 --> 00:07:06.471 I'm so sorry. 00:07:06.771 --> 00:07:07.401 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: problem. 00:07:07.401 --> 00:07:07.971 It's okay. 00:07:08.781 --> 00:07:09.171 problem. 00:07:09.411 --> 00:07:16.251 Uh, when, when the kid is like, Hey, let's read the same thing over and over and over again, and I know we're talking to schools here, but. 00:07:16.731 --> 00:07:24.621 You know your own kids do that, and sometimes your school kids may do that too, but sometimes that gets a little annoying to read the same page or the same book a million times. 00:07:25.021 --> 00:07:27.271 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: It, it can feel annoying. 00:07:27.271 --> 00:07:37.201 Or if you're one of those people that feel like I need to get to the end, um, that can you, you don't get that sense of closure, but that's great for, um, kids development too. 00:07:37.201 --> 00:07:41.671 So I'll, I'll kind of paint a picture of what it looks like, uh, in my own household. 00:07:41.671 --> 00:07:47.371 So I have, uh, newborn, a 22 month old and a four and a half year old. 00:07:47.371 --> 00:07:51.451 And our current favorite that we read every day is How Loud is a lion? 00:07:51.816 --> 00:07:55.626 Um, so you have the toddler as I described before. 00:07:55.626 --> 00:08:01.746 He'll sit across from me, um, while we're reading so he can see my mouth and my facial expressions while we're reading. 00:08:01.866 --> 00:08:07.416 We have the newborn kind of doing his tummy time to the side, but he's also listening and, and soaking it all in. 00:08:07.626 --> 00:08:17.346 And my daughter might be out playing, but we're reading and it's a repetitive text, so, uh, the text goes, you know, something, monkeys are this and chimpanzees are that. 00:08:17.346 --> 00:08:18.576 But how loud is lion? 00:08:18.606 --> 00:08:20.016 Shh, listen. 00:08:20.346 --> 00:08:26.046 And so my son, who's only 22 months old, he's looking at me and he will actually go, shh. 00:08:26.886 --> 00:08:29.196 He, before I even get there, so. 00:08:29.961 --> 00:08:38.361 Even though we read this book every day, there's a predictability to it and he's catching onto those patterns and it's so beautiful to see. 00:08:38.631 --> 00:08:41.691 And meanwhile, my daughter, who I mentioned is four and a half. 00:08:41.691 --> 00:08:42.951 She might be in the other room. 00:08:42.951 --> 00:08:46.821 She's heard the book so many times, she's reciting in the other room. 00:08:46.971 --> 00:08:49.791 Chimpanzees are this and gorillas are that. 00:08:49.791 --> 00:08:51.261 But how loud is a lion? 00:08:51.561 --> 00:08:54.021 Um, and then everyone's going, sh listen. 00:08:54.021 --> 00:09:02.661 So again, it's not just the language development, which is obviously there, it's the, um, material, it's the feel goods. 00:09:02.661 --> 00:09:07.971 It's coming together as a family, even if we're not all in the same room together, um, to do something. 00:09:07.971 --> 00:09:08.181 So. 00:09:08.376 --> 00:09:15.426 Um, I think you can make it exciting, change it up if you're getting bored of reading the same book over and over again. 00:09:15.426 --> 00:09:27.936 But really to follow a child's lead in the beginning is important, even if they're flipping back to the pages a again and again, um, because they're, you know, developing those book handling skills and that joy of reading. 00:09:29.886 --> 00:09:34.116 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah, the joy of reading is, is so important as you've talked about numerous times. 00:09:34.116 --> 00:09:41.766 So, uh, one of the things that is facing us right now is this idea of, uh, screen time. 00:09:41.796 --> 00:09:44.046 I mean, that's been an issue for a while. 00:09:44.046 --> 00:09:44.676 People have been. 00:09:45.126 --> 00:09:56.826 Talking about that and, um, it, it seems that there has been a decrease in, uh, people reading out loud because of screen time. 00:09:56.856 --> 00:09:59.181 Uh, what, what would you add to that discussion? 00:10:00.396 --> 00:10:03.786 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Yeah, so it's something I've been looking at recently. 00:10:03.786 --> 00:10:07.626 There was a study that came out that's been cited in a few places. 00:10:07.626 --> 00:10:09.546 It was by Harper Collins, uk. 00:10:09.846 --> 00:10:15.066 Um, and they found that fewer than half of Gen Z parents call reading fun. 00:10:15.426 --> 00:10:20.201 Um, only 41% report reading to their children, ages four and under. 00:10:20.831 --> 00:10:26.531 And only 36%, uh, read with their children ages five to seven on a regular basis. 00:10:26.531 --> 00:10:45.551 So that whole scenario that I, I'm a millennial parent myself, so that whole scenario that I just described of my two sons and my daughter reading as a family in the morning, it seems that that is not happening for the majority of Gen Z. And the conclusion, at least from the articles that I've read, is that. 00:10:46.006 --> 00:10:49.186 Gen Z parents don't find reading as fun. 00:10:49.186 --> 00:10:52.276 Well, they say that in the survey, they don't describe reading as fun. 00:10:52.606 --> 00:10:57.016 And the conclusions that they've, that they're drawing is that screens play a role in that. 00:10:57.016 --> 00:11:01.636 They find screens and doing things on screens more engaging and more fun. 00:11:01.786 --> 00:11:05.686 And resultingly children find screens more engaging and fun too. 00:11:06.016 --> 00:11:09.616 Um, and it's because of what's made available to them. 00:11:10.446 --> 00:11:20.466 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Well, yeah, screens are more fun because they are dopamine machines and they give you plenty of quick, positive feedback no matter what you're doing. 00:11:20.466 --> 00:11:22.686 So, uh, I totally get that. 00:11:22.956 --> 00:11:28.626 The concern for me is, is that the parents don't even think that. 00:11:28.926 --> 00:11:40.296 Reading is fun and that blows my mind because I have personally always loved reading and I get that if you struggled or didn't do much of it, then that could be an issue. 00:11:40.596 --> 00:11:44.466 Um, people who are Gen Z parents were. 00:11:45.561 --> 00:12:00.441 Students when we started moving away from reading whole textbooks in middle and high school and just went to reading selections and, and chapters right around the common Core when it first rolled out, that was one of the things that that happened. 00:12:00.441 --> 00:12:07.911 Do you see that as having an impact that, um, just getting exposed to small snippets of great works might have contributed to that? 00:12:07.911 --> 00:12:08.811 What's your thought there? 00:12:09.471 --> 00:12:13.521 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Definitely, and I think all of it is around small snippets. 00:12:13.521 --> 00:12:14.931 You mentioned the attention span. 00:12:14.931 --> 00:12:20.841 If you think of most of the things that you do on screen, and as you mentioned, text excerpts versus. 00:12:21.316 --> 00:12:27.378 You know, reading an entire novel, um, they're all about attention and quick attention. 00:12:27.886 --> 00:12:30.106 Um, you know, TikTok is a big one. 00:12:30.106 --> 00:12:33.166 Those videos are typically around, what, 30 seconds. 00:12:33.166 --> 00:12:40.021 And so it's actually training your brain, um, to only be able to pay attention and process information for 30 seconds. 00:12:40.021 --> 00:12:42.286 You get bored if it's, if it's longer than that. 00:12:44.226 --> 00:13:05.526 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: I mean, that sounds like a tragedy because, um, I, I just love reading great books and I love getting into the stories and, um, and it seems like such a missed opportunity when that, when that's not something that you love and how, how do you think that is going to impact. 00:13:05.931 --> 00:13:12.981 Uh, I know this is more barb's question, but how do you think it's gonna impact mental health for, uh, kids who aren't being read too aloud? 00:13:14.496 --> 00:13:22.626 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: I think that they are missing out on opportunities to spend time with children and bond with children. 00:13:22.806 --> 00:13:26.976 Um, release that oxytocin that I mentioned, uh, earlier. 00:13:26.976 --> 00:13:28.236 That's happening when reading. 00:13:29.016 --> 00:13:30.786 I'm sure you've heard it described this way too. 00:13:30.786 --> 00:13:32.736 Reading can also take you places. 00:13:33.051 --> 00:13:43.401 Um, it can feel like an escape, especially if you develop good reading, stamina and you get lost in a book, and I just don't see that happening as much with technology. 00:13:43.521 --> 00:13:50.751 I mean, certainly you can get lost in scrolling, but I don't think it's the same type of getting lost as in a book. 00:13:51.141 --> 00:13:51.561 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Mm-hmm. 00:13:52.276 --> 00:14:04.607 Well, and a lot of that goes to the imagination that you have to experience and, um, and you don't necessarily have to, have much imagination when it's literally being shown to you. 00:14:04.936 --> 00:14:05.956 You know, that's. 00:14:06.336 --> 00:14:10.506 That's a, a difference in how we ingest information now. 00:14:10.956 --> 00:14:22.981 Um, so thinking about that perspective and what that looks like, uh, what, what would you say schools need to do to, to help with this situation? 00:14:23.541 --> 00:14:23.661 I. 00:14:24.996 --> 00:14:34.656 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: I think that as much as possible, family education, um, seems important here, and you can meet the families where they're at. 00:14:34.656 --> 00:14:46.836 I've even played around with the idea of c you know, if Gen Z parents families are into TikTok, why not create a 32nd TikTok video about the importance of reading aloud and reading, um, with your children? 00:14:46.871 --> 00:14:52.871 And it can even be a little snippet of, uh, here, you know, modeling, here's, here's how to do it. 00:14:52.901 --> 00:15:03.011 Um, take some of the pressure off, make it look, um, less intimidating than maybe it seems, and maybe, um, spark joy for them to wanna, uh, read to their children. 00:15:03.011 --> 00:15:04.361 So that's one way. 00:15:04.451 --> 00:15:05.951 Uh, family education schools. 00:15:06.396 --> 00:15:17.076 Schools can support that, um, as much as possible, having great teachers that can model reading aloud, I see a lot of schools cut back on read aloud time. 00:15:17.076 --> 00:15:19.596 There's so much to fit into a school day. 00:15:19.956 --> 00:15:21.066 Um, and. 00:15:21.516 --> 00:15:46.476 You know, teachers feel like they need to teach reading skills, and I think that we forget that part of acquiring, uh, literacy is being read to hearing good reading modeled, um, hearing teachers do think alouds to show this is how, you know, this is how the character feels on this page, and here's the clues from either the pictures or the words that I'm using to understand the character's feelings. 00:15:46.476 --> 00:15:48.246 Here's the meaning that I'm making with this. 00:15:48.591 --> 00:15:50.871 Text if that's not modeled. 00:15:50.961 --> 00:15:53.151 And parents and families can do this too. 00:15:53.151 --> 00:16:02.361 Teachers, um, do it all the time when they're reading aloud, but if that's not explicitly modeled for a child, they're not always going to develop that on their own. 00:16:02.361 --> 00:16:04.311 And then reading does become just a skill. 00:16:04.311 --> 00:16:08.991 It's just reading the words off the page and there's not as much depth and meaning to it. 00:16:10.581 --> 00:16:10.941 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah. 00:16:10.941 --> 00:16:14.631 And that's so tragic because that's, that's a powerful thing. 00:16:14.631 --> 00:16:16.461 I, as an English teacher. 00:16:17.001 --> 00:16:29.811 I, did, got, uh, an audio book sometimes and sometimes read it myself and sometimes did popcorn reading and other, and had the kids read and things like that. 00:16:29.811 --> 00:16:36.651 And sometimes, you know, we did all kinds of things, but reading aloud was an important part of what I did as a teacher. 00:16:37.251 --> 00:16:40.251 But then when I became a principal, that was around that Common Core area. 00:16:40.311 --> 00:16:56.751 Era and, uh, when that first came out, and that was a. That was not seen as valuable, uh, in, the professional development, in the trainings, in the, uh, explicit direction from, organizations about reading. 00:16:56.751 --> 00:16:59.091 It was not seen as, as important. 00:16:59.421 --> 00:17:10.761 And, uh, and I missed it on the one hand, and on the other hand I was like, okay, I can see where we really should be focusing on the skills and, and they can do this stuff at home. 00:17:11.091 --> 00:17:12.891 So I've gone back and forth on this one. 00:17:12.891 --> 00:17:14.541 I don't know exactly what. 00:17:14.961 --> 00:17:26.721 The perfect balance is, but I think that's something that a teacher in her classroom should, uh, have the ability to say, this is what I am feeling good about and comfortable with. 00:17:27.141 --> 00:17:31.401 Um, so with that and, and this idea that, 00:17:34.011 --> 00:17:39.081 that parents are not reading to their kids, um, what, 00:17:41.091 --> 00:17:44.331 how much of your efforts are going to be expanded to. 00:17:44.811 --> 00:17:48.771 Helping parents see the, find the joy in reading again. 00:17:48.891 --> 00:17:54.291 And um, 'cause as far as I understand, a lot of your folks has been helping kids find joy in reading. 00:17:54.621 --> 00:17:59.121 But is this going to expand to more parent outreach or more family education? 00:17:59.906 --> 00:18:00.546 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Absolutely. 00:18:00.546 --> 00:18:04.626 So currently we have a couple different programs, uh, that we. 00:18:04.856 --> 00:18:12.356 Have parent guides for, um, we have Read For Success, which is our read aloud program for kindergarten through third grade. 00:18:12.626 --> 00:18:18.896 And now we recently launched Read for Success Early Childhood, which is geared towards preschool. 00:18:19.106 --> 00:18:22.796 Um, so preschool teachers, librarians, and their families. 00:18:23.036 --> 00:18:27.116 And for each book that we highlight, read aloud book, we have a family guide. 00:18:27.411 --> 00:18:36.771 Uh, the guide will tell you a little bit about the book, um, the author and the illustrator, and then it will actually give you steps for what to do before, during, and after reading. 00:18:36.771 --> 00:18:44.481 So something that you can use to, um, spark your child's interest or build prior knowledge before they start, before you start reading together. 00:18:44.481 --> 00:18:44.931 And then. 00:18:45.196 --> 00:18:52.786 So a question or two that you can ask them throughout the reading and then some reflection questions that they can ask, um, at the end of the reading. 00:18:53.116 --> 00:19:00.676 And then in addition to that, on our guides, we have, uh, extension activities which are related to, related to the book. 00:19:00.676 --> 00:19:02.986 They're low to no resource activities. 00:19:02.986 --> 00:19:03.826 All of our guides. 00:19:03.836 --> 00:19:06.926 Uh, we design so that they're accessible for families. 00:19:07.136 --> 00:19:12.566 Um, we write them in a language that's not too jargony like a teacher would use, but something very family friendly. 00:19:12.866 --> 00:19:17.726 Um, and we also have a lot of our guides translated into, uh, different languages. 00:19:17.936 --> 00:19:30.116 And what I love about the language part is you might be thinking, well, if a family can't read an English book, a book written in English at home, um, their child's not gonna benefit as much. 00:19:30.116 --> 00:19:33.176 But that's actually not true because a lot of the, um. 00:19:33.771 --> 00:19:39.261 Skills from read alouds actually transfer very well between different languages. 00:19:39.261 --> 00:19:46.371 And of course, those material and affective components, um, those are not language dependent, so those always, uh, transfer well. 00:19:46.581 --> 00:19:58.941 But even if you're reading a book in Spanish, if you're engaging in a dialogue with your child, if you're pointing to the words as you read, if, if you're modeling what you're thinking about, how the characters are acting and feeling in that book. 00:19:59.206 --> 00:20:02.536 All of these will, uh, translate to English. 00:20:02.536 --> 00:20:03.586 So they're building skills. 00:20:03.586 --> 00:20:10.996 It might be in, uh, another language such as Spanish, but they'll be able to do that in English when they get into, um, the classroom. 00:20:11.946 --> 00:20:12.426 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah. 00:20:13.386 --> 00:20:26.526 so those same lines, a lot of our kids are, uh, exposed to, and parents certainly are exposed to AI and other technological advancements, and so we live in a very text-heavy world. 00:20:26.526 --> 00:20:27.876 And even though you can talk to the. 00:20:28.656 --> 00:20:32.466 Uh, to the AI and, and go into voice mode. 00:20:32.706 --> 00:20:50.682 There's also a lot of vocabulary that is, if you don't know the vocabulary, then it becomes much more difficult to, uh, express yourself and get the AI to do what you want it to do Do you think that it's worse to be illiterate now than it was before because we're in such a text-heavy world? 00:20:50.682 --> 00:20:55.152 And what does that mean for the urgency for teaching literacy? 00:20:55.907 --> 00:20:56.807 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: That's a great question. 00:20:56.807 --> 00:21:01.217 I can honestly see this either way, because on the one hand you mentioned audio books. 00:21:01.487 --> 00:21:09.467 Um, audio books are very helpful, especially now they have like textbooks and audio books for someone who's say, has dyslexia. 00:21:09.677 --> 00:21:18.137 Um, very smart individual, maybe they're in a college course and they just can't keep up with, um, the reading, but that allows them to access the materials. 00:21:18.407 --> 00:21:21.047 Um, similarly with like AI prompting. 00:21:21.302 --> 00:21:25.652 Being able to use a voice to text, um, is helpful with writing. 00:21:25.652 --> 00:21:34.602 And then of course you see those kind of like AI predictors or Grammarly or things where, um, I. You know, it kind of corrects your spelling or corrects your grammar as you go. 00:21:34.872 --> 00:21:42.822 And hopefully there's, there's a learned process there where you see it corrected enough times that your brain kind of learns it. 00:21:42.822 --> 00:21:47.082 And I did this actually, um, when I moved to Hong Kong. 00:21:47.592 --> 00:21:48.552 I. And I was teaching in Hong Kong. 00:21:48.582 --> 00:21:51.342 They use British English and British spelling there. 00:21:51.522 --> 00:21:55.902 And I thought, oh, I, you know, I'm teaching kindergarten so I need to learn British spellings. 00:21:55.902 --> 00:22:04.752 I actually switched my phone to British English and every time, for example, I texted the word color, it would, uh, change it to C-O-L-O-U-R. 00:22:04.932 --> 00:22:12.672 And sure enough, I learned how to spell the word color, the British English Way, just by repetition and seeing it, um, that way. 00:22:12.882 --> 00:22:16.602 Now I had a basis 'cause I knew how to spell, um, I. Color. 00:22:16.602 --> 00:22:18.432 So, um, there's that. 00:22:18.432 --> 00:22:28.842 And I will say also when I moved back to the US and had to go back to English spelling, that was the tricky part because then I'd write something and question whether it was an S or a Z, um, for a long time. 00:22:28.842 --> 00:22:32.112 But, so I, I do think there's, there's benefits there. 00:22:32.202 --> 00:22:38.052 The pitfall that then of course is that it is doing the work for you a lot of the times. 00:22:38.052 --> 00:22:44.262 And, you know, things like writing essays, I, I don't know. 00:22:44.952 --> 00:22:54.042 What the future holds for students being able to compose their own essay when they can, um, provide a prompt to an AI and have it spit out an essay for you. 00:22:54.192 --> 00:23:01.452 You need to have the critical thinking skills to be able to fact check it, um, and make sure that it sounds right. 00:23:01.452 --> 00:23:04.962 But yeah, I, it, I go back and forth with this all the time. 00:23:04.962 --> 00:23:08.142 I think there are many potentials, but also pitfalls. 00:23:09.102 --> 00:23:20.652 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah, well, there is a, um, a quote by Ethan Molik that I share in my AI presentations, uh, just about every time I do it because it's, it's just so good. 00:23:21.432 --> 00:23:21.852 he says is. 00:23:22.467 --> 00:23:27.447 Knowing when to use AI turns out to be a form of wisdom, not just technical knowledge. 00:23:28.497 --> 00:23:31.167 Like most wisdom, it's somewhat paradoxical. 00:23:31.527 --> 00:23:40.617 AI is often most useful where we're already expert enough to spot its mistakes, yet least helpful in the deep work that made us experts in the first place. 00:23:40.767 --> 00:23:44.337 It works best for tasks we could do ourselves, but shouldn't waste time on. 00:23:44.547 --> 00:23:51.567 It can actively harm our learning when we use it to skip necessary struggles, and that is the. 00:23:52.032 --> 00:23:58.452 The crux of it to me is that when you use it to skip the necessary struggles, that's when you're actually cheating yourself. 00:23:58.632 --> 00:24:07.272 Regardless of how dumb the assignment was to begin with, you're cheating yourself by, by using it instead, and then he, he finishes. 00:24:07.272 --> 00:24:19.572 And perhaps most importantly, wisdom means knowing that these patterns will keep shifting as AI capabilities evolve as more research comes in, requiring us to keep questioning our assumptions about where it helps and where it hinders. 00:24:19.962 --> 00:24:33.162 Now you mentioned these, uh, examples of someone with dyslexia or, or some other disability that prevents 'em from being able to either keep up or produce the content that they need to for their life. 00:24:33.162 --> 00:24:37.212 And that's where can actually help tremendously. 00:24:37.212 --> 00:24:47.232 So for, um, for example, my oldest daughter has down syndrome and has thoughts and feelings and wants to express them, but doesn't always have the ability to, but she can. 00:24:47.727 --> 00:24:50.637 Type things out on her, uh, on her phone. 00:24:50.877 --> 00:25:04.317 And she's done this several times where she's needed to give a talk or prepare something she's typed out what she wants to say and then we put it into chat, GPT and it gives her a voice that she did not have before. 00:25:04.647 --> 00:25:10.857 Now the key thing here is that she already knows how to read and then can read that so that it is actually her voice. 00:25:11.427 --> 00:25:16.257 But she also has, uh, experience with text and knowing how to, uh. 00:25:16.707 --> 00:25:19.857 Right, and, and compose some ideas. 00:25:19.857 --> 00:25:23.637 They're limited, disjointed, and difficult to understand if you don't know her. 00:25:24.117 --> 00:25:28.467 But AI has given her a voice that she didn't have before. 00:25:28.467 --> 00:25:45.087 And so that's where it's not just automatically, if a kid is using ai, then one they're cheating, or two, they're, they're short cutting themselves out of the work they need to, this recent study came out and showed that using the LLM. 00:25:45.417 --> 00:26:01.737 Actually takes the cognitive load off of you so that you can focus on other things and not worry about the writing aspect and help you think more clearly and more effectively, which was a very fascinating discovery that I'll put a link to that study in the show notes. 00:26:01.767 --> 00:26:10.917 And, uh, it's, it's pretty powerful the things that, uh, we're starting to see from this that it looked like kids were just cheating. 00:26:10.977 --> 00:26:12.597 Now it might look like they're actually. 00:26:13.152 --> 00:26:18.672 Giving themselves superpowers by not having to worry about the writing and focus and set on the ideas. 00:26:19.032 --> 00:26:21.042 Still lots, lots to learn about that. 00:26:21.422 --> 00:26:21.752 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Yeah. 00:26:21.782 --> 00:26:22.082 Yeah. 00:26:22.112 --> 00:26:30.092 And I think something that you just sparked for me is, um, I'm sure you've heard of like Bloom's taxonomy before, and I know there's like lots of variations for it. 00:26:30.092 --> 00:26:43.772 But if, if AI are able to take over those lower levels of Bloom's taxonomy, perhaps it, uh, increases our mental capacity to be able to reach higher levels, like being, being able to think critically and creatively. 00:26:45.732 --> 00:26:52.017 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: So the, the term for this, uh, this paper is cognitive debt um. 00:26:53.082 --> 00:26:57.072 And that is the, uh, that's the the thing you wanna look for. 00:26:57.072 --> 00:27:01.602 So if you're listening and you're like, what is this, uh, what is this thing Jets was talking about? 00:27:01.602 --> 00:27:11.712 It's cognitive debt, but actually read the study because the, uh, the people who are reporting on it are actually, I think, being very disingenuous with what they're saying. 00:27:11.892 --> 00:27:12.222 Um. 00:27:12.567 --> 00:27:17.757 I've kind of been on a, on a roll today criticizing media, but they're basically saying that it makes you dumb. 00:27:17.757 --> 00:27:20.427 And I, and that's not what I got from reading it myself. 00:27:20.427 --> 00:27:23.547 So I would encourage people to, to check that out. 00:27:23.577 --> 00:27:28.347 Um, uh, so anyway, there's, there's some stuff, uh, about that. 00:27:28.407 --> 00:27:31.977 Um, anything else you wanna say about that? 00:27:32.067 --> 00:27:35.307 Uh, AI technology, illiteracy, literacy. 00:27:36.342 --> 00:27:41.472 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: I think what we will find, and you know, you've pointed to some great studies. 00:27:41.712 --> 00:27:44.022 The research is happening right now and it's. 00:27:44.162 --> 00:27:50.342 It's a lot of times difficult for research to keep up with, uh, what's actually happening in the now. 00:27:50.342 --> 00:27:58.082 And, and you know this, um, 'cause you've done a little bit of research yourself, research is often actually behind what is currently happening. 00:27:58.082 --> 00:27:59.912 And there are a lot of reasons for that. 00:27:59.912 --> 00:28:09.902 Institutional reasons, funding reasons, um, but just to know that the research is happening right now, but the technology is evolving quicker than the research is able to keep up with it. 00:28:09.902 --> 00:28:12.092 So a lot to be unknown there. 00:28:12.872 --> 00:28:13.442 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah. 00:28:13.532 --> 00:28:15.572 And a lot of things to still figure out. 00:28:15.602 --> 00:28:19.772 And so, uh, we don't have all the answers and guess what that is? 00:28:19.772 --> 00:28:20.222 Okay. 00:28:20.462 --> 00:28:26.222 So we can, we can still move forward, still do the things we know, uh, that are effective. 00:28:26.612 --> 00:28:28.652 Um, uh. 00:28:30.132 --> 00:28:34.872 The, as we close out here, this has been a, a great conversation. 00:28:34.902 --> 00:28:44.592 You, you mentioned, um, a book in the last one with Barb, uh, called, uh, how to Talk to Your Amygdala or How to Train Your Amygdala. 00:28:44.727 --> 00:28:45.942 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: how to train your amygdala. 00:28:46.242 --> 00:28:47.562 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: how To Train Your Amygdala. 00:28:47.562 --> 00:28:48.012 Thank you. 00:28:48.372 --> 00:28:54.102 Um, so, uh, you've got some resources for that, and this is one of those things where. 00:28:54.792 --> 00:29:00.672 Uh, Barb and I talked a lot about the idea that teachers should not be therapists and, uh, they should not be counselors. 00:29:00.672 --> 00:29:01.842 They are teachers. 00:29:02.082 --> 00:29:10.662 And so talking about teaching, um, about your brain, about mental health issues and, and not. 00:29:11.442 --> 00:29:15.552 Thinking automatically that you need to become a teacher or a therapist. 00:29:15.762 --> 00:29:23.592 Talk about this book, how to Train Your Amygdala and what, what that means and and how people can use that and your resource for that. 00:29:23.592 --> 00:29:23.892 Also, 00:29:24.192 --> 00:29:24.752 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Yes. 00:29:25.052 --> 00:29:27.122 Yeah, I do have a resource in the show notes. 00:29:27.122 --> 00:29:30.062 We have a, a family guide and a teacher guide for that book. 00:29:30.212 --> 00:29:33.962 I think it's a yes, and I, I definitely think we should leave, um. 00:29:34.887 --> 00:29:42.897 Therapy to mental health professionals, obviously, but there are ways that you can teach using trauma-informed practices, let's say. 00:29:43.137 --> 00:29:43.632 Um, because. 00:29:44.967 --> 00:29:46.857 You know, you know this 'cause you've been a teacher. 00:29:46.857 --> 00:30:02.517 Jethro, like teachers wear many hats and children need different things on different days and they may show up on a day and need you to be, not their therapist, but certainly need you to be someone that they can trust and feel safe with, and feel, um, confident in. 00:30:02.697 --> 00:30:04.437 So, using books is a great way. 00:30:04.672 --> 00:30:08.212 Um, to do that, it helps fight the stigma in a lot of ways. 00:30:08.212 --> 00:30:10.492 It helps give, um, names to things. 00:30:10.492 --> 00:30:19.222 So, um, in this particular book, uh, the amygdala is, the amygdala is a part of your brain that's kind of that, um, alarm system for danger, that fight. 00:30:19.517 --> 00:30:20.837 Fight or flight type of thing. 00:30:21.107 --> 00:30:23.987 Um, and, and it becomes a character in this book. 00:30:23.987 --> 00:30:37.517 So it's a persona, it's a part of your brain, but it's personified, um, into a character for this book and through it, um, children learn how they can understand their bodies practice, their impulse control, um, support their self-regulation. 00:30:37.517 --> 00:30:39.377 And all of these things are, um. 00:30:39.997 --> 00:30:45.907 You know, great skills to have in the classroom because you, you know, things are gonna happen every day in the classroom. 00:30:45.907 --> 00:30:53.227 Let's say, uh, you went and tried to grab the blue marker and somebody else grabbed it before you, and now you're kind of waiting there. 00:30:53.227 --> 00:30:55.537 You can't color your sky because your markers there. 00:30:55.777 --> 00:31:08.137 Um, you know, having some self-regulation strategies, some calm down strategies are great for those types of situations that happen every day, uh, in the classroom, and then transfer into life as adults. 00:31:10.392 --> 00:31:24.609 jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Well, and, and those teacher's guides and, and parent guides are really helpful to help you know how to talk about those things and know how to, what to do with it, which, which I think we just, uh, we definitely benefit from having other. 00:31:24.792 --> 00:31:25.812 Sources to help with that. 00:31:25.812 --> 00:31:28.752 And we really, uh, we do need to be talking about this. 00:31:28.752 --> 00:31:40.602 What Barb was saying is that mental health education is health education and that it needs to, uh, be, uh, part of that process and it's okay to talk about it and teach about it. 00:31:40.602 --> 00:31:45.125 And, and when you do talk about it, then it makes it, uh, easier to. 00:31:45.627 --> 00:31:47.607 Talk about later when you are struggling. 00:31:47.667 --> 00:31:50.427 And that's, that's really the whole, the whole point. 00:31:50.427 --> 00:32:02.641 So I wanna thank you again, Aaron, for being part of this and, and thank Macy's, uh, for, uh, helping, uh, raise money for literacy and mental health support for, for kids. 00:32:03.027 --> 00:32:05.277 And once again, you go to macy's dot com slash. 00:32:05.762 --> 00:32:08.972 Slash purpose, uh, to learn more about that. 00:32:08.972 --> 00:32:11.432 But if you go shopping at Macy's, make sure you round up. 00:32:11.732 --> 00:32:16.712 And Aaron, thank you so much for being part of Transformative Principal and Resilient Schools today. 00:32:17.457 --> 00:32:18.137 erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Thanks, Jeff. 00:32:18.527 --> 00:32:19.292 Great to be here again.