jethro_2_04-23-2025_143737: Welcome to Transformative Principle, where I help you stop putting out fires and start leading.
I'm your host, Jethro Jones.
You can follow me on Twitter at Jethro Jones.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Welcome to Transformative Principal and Resilient Schools.
We're gonna do a simulcast with this podcast interview.
Uh, today I am honored to be joined by Erin Bailey.
She is, the Reading is Fundamental Vice President of Literacy Programs and Research.
She brings deep curriculum and instructional expertise to her position, which includes serving as a subject matter expert in developing, curating, and managing content and professional learning.
For educators and families on learning, there's a bunch more stuff about her that I encourage you to go check out on the show notes at either Transformative Principal dot org or resilient schools.com you're listening to this.
And, uh, she also was on Transformative Principal in February of 24, uh, where we talked about helping families find joy in reading.
And I'm really excited about this continued partnership with R and with, uh, NAMI and with Macy's.
So this is a fun opportunity to, focus on, uh, Macy's, um, success one, is that what it's called?
Hold on.
I, I close the tab and now I can't find it again.
There it is.
Just a sec.
All right, so this is, uh, we're grateful to Macy's for supporting RIF and NAMI in this, uh, mission, everyone, which is a social commitment focused on creating brighter future.
And so now through September 14th, if you, go buy something at Macy's and you round up, then a donation will be made to RIF and NAMI to help give literacy and mental health resources to.
Kids all across the country.
So we're excited about that.
And they've been doing this for 22 years now, partnering with rif.
So, uh, anything you want to add there, Aaron?
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Um, we're just grateful for the continued partnership with Macy's.
Through all of the work that we've done with Macy's, we've been able to create engaging content, be able to provide turnkey solutions, um, and impact children's reading in some of the lowest income communities across the country.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah.
Thank you, and we're excited about that.
If you wanna learn more about that, go to macy's dot com slash purpose.
Uh, today, however, we're gonna talk about a bunch of things around literacy.
If you've been following along, first we did a, an interview or a conversation with Barb Solich and Aaron Bailey, uh, on their own.
And then I interviewed Barb, and now I'm interviewing Erin.
Those are all linked in the show notes as well, so you can go check out those other, um, episodes and, uh, they're all out now, so you can go listen to them.
And, uh, one of the things that we talked about, uh, just a little tiny bit before, um, was, uh, how important it is for building connections and using reading books to help with that.
Aaron, do you wanna talk a little bit about that?
Building connections, uh, by reading with people.
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Sure.
So I think that, um, often when we think about, uh, reading, we're just thinking about the language component of it.
So, and, and that's super beneficial to kids hearing language.
I. Learning vocabulary words, but there's actually two other components too, um, that I like to think of in terms of a teacher or a parent or a caregiver reading to a child.
Um, and that's the material component and the affective component.
So the language component is, is pretty obvious.
The material component or the physical component includes proximity, uh, special time with your child if you are reading to an infant or a toddler.
In addition to hearing that language, they're also seeing your lips move.
That's a very material aspect of reading.
Um, and we talked a little bit about sitting side by side with a child while reading, and I love that you can also sit face to face with a child, especially a very young child when you're reading to them.
And that way they can.
See your lips moving.
That's how they're going to learn how to move their own, uh, lips to pronounce those, those words and make that connection between, uh, speech and print.
So that's the material component.
And then the other one is the affective component where we can think of that feel good, uh, component.
I shared a little bit in the previous podcast about mothers reading to their, uh, newborns in the nicu.
Um, and how that was not only beneficial for the.
Infants, uh, but it was beneficial for the mothers.
It, uh.
It helped the mothers with their postpartum depression.
They had lower rates of postpartum depression after they were reading to their, uh, children in the, in the nicu.
Additionally, they've done some research on preschool children being read aloud to um, and they've.
Found that uh, when children, young children are listening to, uh, books being read aloud to them, they release oxytocin, which is that, uh, chemical that makes you feel good and happy.
So tho those are kind of the three main components I think of when I think of reading aloud is the, um, language component.
The material component, and the affective component.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: And that's a very, uh, like scientific way to explain that.
But there's, there's also this emotional or spiritual connection that you have with someone as you.
Are doing that together, which probably fits into those material and affective components.
Uh, also, but those are things that they're just not, um, they're easy to overlook and not think that that's what we're doing it for.
But some of, uh, the best experiences that I've had with my kids have been.
Reading books with them and looking back on that time and seeing them understand something for the first time and, and experiencing it for the first time is, is always really cool.
And sometimes it does get annoying when they're like, read this same page again and again and again.
Uh, what's your advice there?
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: I, I love that.
Um, and when you were saying that, I thought of a phrase, I do it for the aha moments.
I think that's what you were describing as those kind of light bulb moments when when your kids, um, light up.
And I used to say that to myself when I was a teacher.
I'd do it for the aha uh, moments.
But, um, your question about, uh, can you repeat the question?
I'm so sorry.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: problem.
It's okay.
problem.
Uh, when, when the kid is like, Hey, let's read the same thing over and over and over again, and I know we're talking to schools here, but.
You know your own kids do that, and sometimes your school kids may do that too, but sometimes that gets a little annoying to read the same page or the same book a million times.
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: It, it can feel annoying.
Or if you're one of those people that feel like I need to get to the end, um, that can you, you don't get that sense of closure, but that's great for, um, kids development too.
So I'll, I'll kind of paint a picture of what it looks like, uh, in my own household.
So I have, uh, newborn, a 22 month old and a four and a half year old.
And our current favorite that we read every day is How Loud is a lion?
Um, so you have the toddler as I described before.
He'll sit across from me, um, while we're reading so he can see my mouth and my facial expressions while we're reading.
We have the newborn kind of doing his tummy time to the side, but he's also listening and, and soaking it all in.
And my daughter might be out playing, but we're reading and it's a repetitive text, so, uh, the text goes, you know, something, monkeys are this and chimpanzees are that.
But how loud is lion?
Shh, listen.
And so my son, who's only 22 months old, he's looking at me and he will actually go, shh.
He, before I even get there, so.
Even though we read this book every day, there's a predictability to it and he's catching onto those patterns and it's so beautiful to see.
And meanwhile, my daughter, who I mentioned is four and a half.
She might be in the other room.
She's heard the book so many times, she's reciting in the other room.
Chimpanzees are this and gorillas are that.
But how loud is a lion?
Um, and then everyone's going, sh listen.
So again, it's not just the language development, which is obviously there, it's the, um, material, it's the feel goods.
It's coming together as a family, even if we're not all in the same room together, um, to do something.
So.
Um, I think you can make it exciting, change it up if you're getting bored of reading the same book over and over again.
But really to follow a child's lead in the beginning is important, even if they're flipping back to the pages a again and again, um, because they're, you know, developing those book handling skills and that joy of reading.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah, the joy of reading is, is so important as you've talked about numerous times.
So, uh, one of the things that is facing us right now is this idea of, uh, screen time.
I mean, that's been an issue for a while.
People have been.
Talking about that and, um, it, it seems that there has been a decrease in, uh, people reading out loud because of screen time.
Uh, what, what would you add to that discussion?
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Yeah, so it's something I've been looking at recently.
There was a study that came out that's been cited in a few places.
It was by Harper Collins, uk.
Um, and they found that fewer than half of Gen Z parents call reading fun.
Um, only 41% report reading to their children, ages four and under.
And only 36%, uh, read with their children ages five to seven on a regular basis.
So that whole scenario that I, I'm a millennial parent myself, so that whole scenario that I just described of my two sons and my daughter reading as a family in the morning, it seems that that is not happening for the majority of Gen Z. And the conclusion, at least from the articles that I've read, is that.
Gen Z parents don't find reading as fun.
Well, they say that in the survey, they don't describe reading as fun.
And the conclusions that they've, that they're drawing is that screens play a role in that.
They find screens and doing things on screens more engaging and more fun.
And resultingly children find screens more engaging and fun too.
Um, and it's because of what's made available to them.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Well, yeah, screens are more fun because they are dopamine machines and they give you plenty of quick, positive feedback no matter what you're doing.
So, uh, I totally get that.
The concern for me is, is that the parents don't even think that.
Reading is fun and that blows my mind because I have personally always loved reading and I get that if you struggled or didn't do much of it, then that could be an issue.
Um, people who are Gen Z parents were.
Students when we started moving away from reading whole textbooks in middle and high school and just went to reading selections and, and chapters right around the common Core when it first rolled out, that was one of the things that that happened.
Do you see that as having an impact that, um, just getting exposed to small snippets of great works might have contributed to that?
What's your thought there?
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Definitely, and I think all of it is around small snippets.
You mentioned the attention span.
If you think of most of the things that you do on screen, and as you mentioned, text excerpts versus.
You know, reading an entire novel, um, they're all about attention and quick attention.
Um, you know, TikTok is a big one.
Those videos are typically around, what, 30 seconds.
And so it's actually training your brain, um, to only be able to pay attention and process information for 30 seconds.
You get bored if it's, if it's longer than that.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: I mean, that sounds like a tragedy because, um, I, I just love reading great books and I love getting into the stories and, um, and it seems like such a missed opportunity when that, when that's not something that you love and how, how do you think that is going to impact.
Uh, I know this is more barb's question, but how do you think it's gonna impact mental health for, uh, kids who aren't being read too aloud?
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: I think that they are missing out on opportunities to spend time with children and bond with children.
Um, release that oxytocin that I mentioned, uh, earlier.
That's happening when reading.
I'm sure you've heard it described this way too.
Reading can also take you places.
Um, it can feel like an escape, especially if you develop good reading, stamina and you get lost in a book, and I just don't see that happening as much with technology.
I mean, certainly you can get lost in scrolling, but I don't think it's the same type of getting lost as in a book.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Mm-hmm.
Well, and a lot of that goes to the imagination that you have to experience and, um, and you don't necessarily have to, have much imagination when it's literally being shown to you.
You know, that's.
That's a, a difference in how we ingest information now.
Um, so thinking about that perspective and what that looks like, uh, what, what would you say schools need to do to, to help with this situation?
I.
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: I think that as much as possible, family education, um, seems important here, and you can meet the families where they're at.
I've even played around with the idea of c you know, if Gen Z parents families are into TikTok, why not create a 32nd TikTok video about the importance of reading aloud and reading, um, with your children?
And it can even be a little snippet of, uh, here, you know, modeling, here's, here's how to do it.
Um, take some of the pressure off, make it look, um, less intimidating than maybe it seems, and maybe, um, spark joy for them to wanna, uh, read to their children.
So that's one way.
Uh, family education schools.
Schools can support that, um, as much as possible, having great teachers that can model reading aloud, I see a lot of schools cut back on read aloud time.
There's so much to fit into a school day.
Um, and.
You know, teachers feel like they need to teach reading skills, and I think that we forget that part of acquiring, uh, literacy is being read to hearing good reading modeled, um, hearing teachers do think alouds to show this is how, you know, this is how the character feels on this page, and here's the clues from either the pictures or the words that I'm using to understand the character's feelings.
Here's the meaning that I'm making with this.
Text if that's not modeled.
And parents and families can do this too.
Teachers, um, do it all the time when they're reading aloud, but if that's not explicitly modeled for a child, they're not always going to develop that on their own.
And then reading does become just a skill.
It's just reading the words off the page and there's not as much depth and meaning to it.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah.
And that's so tragic because that's, that's a powerful thing.
I, as an English teacher.
I, did, got, uh, an audio book sometimes and sometimes read it myself and sometimes did popcorn reading and other, and had the kids read and things like that.
And sometimes, you know, we did all kinds of things, but reading aloud was an important part of what I did as a teacher.
But then when I became a principal, that was around that Common Core area.
Era and, uh, when that first came out, and that was a. That was not seen as valuable, uh, in, the professional development, in the trainings, in the, uh, explicit direction from, organizations about reading.
It was not seen as, as important.
And, uh, and I missed it on the one hand, and on the other hand I was like, okay, I can see where we really should be focusing on the skills and, and they can do this stuff at home.
So I've gone back and forth on this one.
I don't know exactly what.
The perfect balance is, but I think that's something that a teacher in her classroom should, uh, have the ability to say, this is what I am feeling good about and comfortable with.
Um, so with that and, and this idea that,
that parents are not reading to their kids, um, what,
how much of your efforts are going to be expanded to.
Helping parents see the, find the joy in reading again.
And um, 'cause as far as I understand, a lot of your folks has been helping kids find joy in reading.
But is this going to expand to more parent outreach or more family education?
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Absolutely.
So currently we have a couple different programs, uh, that we.
Have parent guides for, um, we have Read For Success, which is our read aloud program for kindergarten through third grade.
And now we recently launched Read for Success Early Childhood, which is geared towards preschool.
Um, so preschool teachers, librarians, and their families.
And for each book that we highlight, read aloud book, we have a family guide.
Uh, the guide will tell you a little bit about the book, um, the author and the illustrator, and then it will actually give you steps for what to do before, during, and after reading.
So something that you can use to, um, spark your child's interest or build prior knowledge before they start, before you start reading together.
And then.
So a question or two that you can ask them throughout the reading and then some reflection questions that they can ask, um, at the end of the reading.
And then in addition to that, on our guides, we have, uh, extension activities which are related to, related to the book.
They're low to no resource activities.
All of our guides.
Uh, we design so that they're accessible for families.
Um, we write them in a language that's not too jargony like a teacher would use, but something very family friendly.
Um, and we also have a lot of our guides translated into, uh, different languages.
And what I love about the language part is you might be thinking, well, if a family can't read an English book, a book written in English at home, um, their child's not gonna benefit as much.
But that's actually not true because a lot of the, um.
Skills from read alouds actually transfer very well between different languages.
And of course, those material and affective components, um, those are not language dependent, so those always, uh, transfer well.
But even if you're reading a book in Spanish, if you're engaging in a dialogue with your child, if you're pointing to the words as you read, if, if you're modeling what you're thinking about, how the characters are acting and feeling in that book.
All of these will, uh, translate to English.
So they're building skills.
It might be in, uh, another language such as Spanish, but they'll be able to do that in English when they get into, um, the classroom.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah.
so those same lines, a lot of our kids are, uh, exposed to, and parents certainly are exposed to AI and other technological advancements, and so we live in a very text-heavy world.
And even though you can talk to the.
Uh, to the AI and, and go into voice mode.
There's also a lot of vocabulary that is, if you don't know the vocabulary, then it becomes much more difficult to, uh, express yourself and get the AI to do what you want it to do Do you think that it's worse to be illiterate now than it was before because we're in such a text-heavy world?
And what does that mean for the urgency for teaching literacy?
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: That's a great question.
I can honestly see this either way, because on the one hand you mentioned audio books.
Um, audio books are very helpful, especially now they have like textbooks and audio books for someone who's say, has dyslexia.
Um, very smart individual, maybe they're in a college course and they just can't keep up with, um, the reading, but that allows them to access the materials.
Um, similarly with like AI prompting.
Being able to use a voice to text, um, is helpful with writing.
And then of course you see those kind of like AI predictors or Grammarly or things where, um, I. You know, it kind of corrects your spelling or corrects your grammar as you go.
And hopefully there's, there's a learned process there where you see it corrected enough times that your brain kind of learns it.
And I did this actually, um, when I moved to Hong Kong.
I. And I was teaching in Hong Kong.
They use British English and British spelling there.
And I thought, oh, I, you know, I'm teaching kindergarten so I need to learn British spellings.
I actually switched my phone to British English and every time, for example, I texted the word color, it would, uh, change it to C-O-L-O-U-R.
And sure enough, I learned how to spell the word color, the British English Way, just by repetition and seeing it, um, that way.
Now I had a basis 'cause I knew how to spell, um, I. Color.
So, um, there's that.
And I will say also when I moved back to the US and had to go back to English spelling, that was the tricky part because then I'd write something and question whether it was an S or a Z, um, for a long time.
But, so I, I do think there's, there's benefits there.
The pitfall that then of course is that it is doing the work for you a lot of the times.
And, you know, things like writing essays, I, I don't know.
What the future holds for students being able to compose their own essay when they can, um, provide a prompt to an AI and have it spit out an essay for you.
You need to have the critical thinking skills to be able to fact check it, um, and make sure that it sounds right.
But yeah, I, it, I go back and forth with this all the time.
I think there are many potentials, but also pitfalls.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah, well, there is a, um, a quote by Ethan Molik that I share in my AI presentations, uh, just about every time I do it because it's, it's just so good.
he says is.
Knowing when to use AI turns out to be a form of wisdom, not just technical knowledge.
Like most wisdom, it's somewhat paradoxical.
AI is often most useful where we're already expert enough to spot its mistakes, yet least helpful in the deep work that made us experts in the first place.
It works best for tasks we could do ourselves, but shouldn't waste time on.
It can actively harm our learning when we use it to skip necessary struggles, and that is the.
The crux of it to me is that when you use it to skip the necessary struggles, that's when you're actually cheating yourself.
Regardless of how dumb the assignment was to begin with, you're cheating yourself by, by using it instead, and then he, he finishes.
And perhaps most importantly, wisdom means knowing that these patterns will keep shifting as AI capabilities evolve as more research comes in, requiring us to keep questioning our assumptions about where it helps and where it hinders.
Now you mentioned these, uh, examples of someone with dyslexia or, or some other disability that prevents 'em from being able to either keep up or produce the content that they need to for their life.
And that's where can actually help tremendously.
So for, um, for example, my oldest daughter has down syndrome and has thoughts and feelings and wants to express them, but doesn't always have the ability to, but she can.
Type things out on her, uh, on her phone.
And she's done this several times where she's needed to give a talk or prepare something she's typed out what she wants to say and then we put it into chat, GPT and it gives her a voice that she did not have before.
Now the key thing here is that she already knows how to read and then can read that so that it is actually her voice.
But she also has, uh, experience with text and knowing how to, uh.
Right, and, and compose some ideas.
They're limited, disjointed, and difficult to understand if you don't know her.
But AI has given her a voice that she didn't have before.
And so that's where it's not just automatically, if a kid is using ai, then one they're cheating, or two, they're, they're short cutting themselves out of the work they need to, this recent study came out and showed that using the LLM.
Actually takes the cognitive load off of you so that you can focus on other things and not worry about the writing aspect and help you think more clearly and more effectively, which was a very fascinating discovery that I'll put a link to that study in the show notes.
And, uh, it's, it's pretty powerful the things that, uh, we're starting to see from this that it looked like kids were just cheating.
Now it might look like they're actually.
Giving themselves superpowers by not having to worry about the writing and focus and set on the ideas.
Still lots, lots to learn about that.
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Yeah.
Yeah.
And I think something that you just sparked for me is, um, I'm sure you've heard of like Bloom's taxonomy before, and I know there's like lots of variations for it.
But if, if AI are able to take over those lower levels of Bloom's taxonomy, perhaps it, uh, increases our mental capacity to be able to reach higher levels, like being, being able to think critically and creatively.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: So the, the term for this, uh, this paper is cognitive debt um.
And that is the, uh, that's the the thing you wanna look for.
So if you're listening and you're like, what is this, uh, what is this thing Jets was talking about?
It's cognitive debt, but actually read the study because the, uh, the people who are reporting on it are actually, I think, being very disingenuous with what they're saying.
Um.
I've kind of been on a, on a roll today criticizing media, but they're basically saying that it makes you dumb.
And I, and that's not what I got from reading it myself.
So I would encourage people to, to check that out.
Um, uh, so anyway, there's, there's some stuff, uh, about that.
Um, anything else you wanna say about that?
Uh, AI technology, illiteracy, literacy.
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: I think what we will find, and you know, you've pointed to some great studies.
The research is happening right now and it's.
It's a lot of times difficult for research to keep up with, uh, what's actually happening in the now.
And, and you know this, um, 'cause you've done a little bit of research yourself, research is often actually behind what is currently happening.
And there are a lot of reasons for that.
Institutional reasons, funding reasons, um, but just to know that the research is happening right now, but the technology is evolving quicker than the research is able to keep up with it.
So a lot to be unknown there.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Yeah.
And a lot of things to still figure out.
And so, uh, we don't have all the answers and guess what that is?
Okay.
So we can, we can still move forward, still do the things we know, uh, that are effective.
Um, uh.
The, as we close out here, this has been a, a great conversation.
You, you mentioned, um, a book in the last one with Barb, uh, called, uh, how to Talk to Your Amygdala or How to Train Your Amygdala.
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: how to train your amygdala.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: how To Train Your Amygdala.
Thank you.
Um, so, uh, you've got some resources for that, and this is one of those things where.
Uh, Barb and I talked a lot about the idea that teachers should not be therapists and, uh, they should not be counselors.
They are teachers.
And so talking about teaching, um, about your brain, about mental health issues and, and not.
Thinking automatically that you need to become a teacher or a therapist.
Talk about this book, how to Train Your Amygdala and what, what that means and and how people can use that and your resource for that.
Also,
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Yes.
Yeah, I do have a resource in the show notes.
We have a, a family guide and a teacher guide for that book.
I think it's a yes, and I, I definitely think we should leave, um.
Therapy to mental health professionals, obviously, but there are ways that you can teach using trauma-informed practices, let's say.
Um, because.
You know, you know this 'cause you've been a teacher.
Jethro, like teachers wear many hats and children need different things on different days and they may show up on a day and need you to be, not their therapist, but certainly need you to be someone that they can trust and feel safe with, and feel, um, confident in.
So, using books is a great way.
Um, to do that, it helps fight the stigma in a lot of ways.
It helps give, um, names to things.
So, um, in this particular book, uh, the amygdala is, the amygdala is a part of your brain that's kind of that, um, alarm system for danger, that fight.
Fight or flight type of thing.
Um, and, and it becomes a character in this book.
So it's a persona, it's a part of your brain, but it's personified, um, into a character for this book and through it, um, children learn how they can understand their bodies practice, their impulse control, um, support their self-regulation.
And all of these things are, um.
You know, great skills to have in the classroom because you, you know, things are gonna happen every day in the classroom.
Let's say, uh, you went and tried to grab the blue marker and somebody else grabbed it before you, and now you're kind of waiting there.
You can't color your sky because your markers there.
Um, you know, having some self-regulation strategies, some calm down strategies are great for those types of situations that happen every day, uh, in the classroom, and then transfer into life as adults.
jethro_2_06-25-2025_143917: Well, and, and those teacher's guides and, and parent guides are really helpful to help you know how to talk about those things and know how to, what to do with it, which, which I think we just, uh, we definitely benefit from having other.
Sources to help with that.
And we really, uh, we do need to be talking about this.
What Barb was saying is that mental health education is health education and that it needs to, uh, be, uh, part of that process and it's okay to talk about it and teach about it.
And, and when you do talk about it, then it makes it, uh, easier to.
Talk about later when you are struggling.
And that's, that's really the whole, the whole point.
So I wanna thank you again, Aaron, for being part of this and, and thank Macy's, uh, for, uh, helping, uh, raise money for literacy and mental health support for, for kids.
And once again, you go to macy's dot com slash.
Slash purpose, uh, to learn more about that.
But if you go shopping at Macy's, make sure you round up.
And Aaron, thank you so much for being part of Transformative Principal and Resilient Schools today.
erin_1_06-25-2025_143936: Thanks, Jeff.
Great to be here again.