There. Okay, all right, hello. This is Rasheem, the host of the counter narrative. Right now, I'm on the phone with one of our special guests. I hear her laughing on the phone in the background, and we're just right now, just really trying to make sure that we get her connected. So tonight's episode is called Orange is not the new black. It is on race, race, gender and incarceration. And I really wanted to make sure that I get these women to kind of share their stories, share their background, and talk about some of the things that they have been through and experience, and as long as all of the technical difficulties and bugs worked out work out, we'll have opportunity to hear from them. So before we get super deep into it and they come on, I am going to just share a quote from Michelle Alexander. Michelle Alexander wrote a book called The New Jim Crow Mass Incarceration in the Age of Colorblindness, which is a very, I think, provocative book, very good book, and it basically talks about the judicial system and the way that incarceration sentences are given out. And it is she asserts that it is not a color a color blind system and our guests have had various experience with this particular topic, whether it's they have been themselves in a situation where they have been incarcerated, or they counsel people as well as they have been incarcerated, so they're going to share some of their experiences. So Michelle Alexander says arguably the most important parallel between mass incarceration and Jim Crow is that both have served to define the meaning and significance of race in America. Indeed, a primary function of any race racial caste system is to define the meaning of race in its time slavery, define what it meant to be black as a slave. Jim Crow defined what it meant to be black as a second class citizen today, mass incarceration defines the meaning of blackness in America. Black people, especially black men, are criminals. That is what it means to be black. And then there's also article that I that I have shared, and if you're watching the replay, then I would say, go ahead and check this out. The article we're in slash video was Jay Z's war on drugs as an epic fail. And that's particularly interesting because it shares some of the same standpoints as the Michelle Alexander book, The New Jim Crow, where it talks about the judicial system and that basically it's not a color colorblind system. What I mainly want to talk about with our guests as they when they come on, is their personal, lived experiences, their perspectives, how they transition from being incarcerated to being a returning citizen. We're also going to talk about ways that, if you have a loved one, a family member who has been incarcerated, what are some of the ways that we can support them in their transition. What are some of the ways that we can also not just support them in their transition with tangible things, but like, what type of some emotional support? What are some of the things that that they need to help them to better adjust? And all of our guests have some particular experience with that, which is one of the reasons that I'm very excited about making sure that I get them on. And we're still having a bit of technical blunders here at the moment, so I am going to try to pull them on as they come in, and they can talk about their personal, lived experiences and and we can go deeper into that. Also, if you have any questions, feel free to please put the questions in the chat. If you are here watching us live, if you're not here watching us live, feel free to put a comment under the video in YouTube. You can always find us here at on firetalk.com forward slash Rasheem. You can also catch these replays at, excuse me. Chevla rasheem.com, you can always catch me on Twitter at s Rasheem, and that's about at symbol, S, R, A, S, H, E, M, and on Facebook, I am Rasheem. Rasheem, so I am going to click over again to try to see if we can very quickly get our guests in. Still haven't. Up so having a little challenges with getting our guest on, but we are not quitters, so we're going to see how that works out. Now, the book that I was mentioning earlier is looks like this. I know it got a it has a little bit of a glare, and this is the new Jim Crow by Michelle Alexander. I have it in this funk in this format, and I also have it on my Kindle. So let's see, Elizabeth, if you're still here, George recommends that you try your phone, try to connect through your phone, or if you have another device to connect through, then try to use that as a means of connection for the show. And again, you are tuned into the counter narrative tonight. Segment is orange is not the New Black, and we will be talking about race, gender and incarceration with three of our panelists who are black women who have some experience with incarceration, whether it's they are drug addiction specialists within the judicial system or specifically within a woman's prison, or if they have been in prison or incarcerated at some point in the past and now they are returning citizens. And what was that experience like? There's another woman who will be joining us shortly, fingers crossed, should all the technology works out, who she just recently had a summit, re entry Summit. And one another thing that I want us to be able to talk about is reducing the recidivism, the recidivism rate, which recidivism is just basically the amount or the number of times a person actually returns back to prison or to jail. What is the likelihood? How is the system set up to make sure that people are not, you know, repeat offenders, and what are some of the factors and the conditions that leads to a person repeating one of some of the things that I've heard of is they cannot find a job. Employment is really tough, and so when employment is tough, you tend to take alternative routes. If you can't get employment. You tend to take alternative routes to be able to feed your family and take care of yourself, because all of those are very real, very, very real needs, very real concerns that are unavoidable. And again, this is the counter narrative. Tonight's show is orange is not the New Black, and it is on race, gender and incarceration, and I am working on getting our guests in the book that I referenced earlier again was Jim Crow, The New Jim Crow, by Michelle Alexander. And I also reference an article or section that was written in The New York Times. It's also a video. It's a very short video, um, and it's called Jay Z's war on drugs is an epic fail. If you are here watching us live, you can kind of actually scroll under the video section and it will give you the link. I put the link there. And also, if you're here. I also added the link to the first chapter of this book. If you want to check out the first chapter of this particular book. The forward is written by Cornell West, and he gives it rave reviews, naturally, in a forward, that's what you would expect. And she talks about, in his books, she starts talking about caste system, and how the judicial system helps to set up a caste system, what that how that has traditionally played out. She also talks about the role that racism plays in some of these systems in terms of saying or identifying that racism necessarily does not disappear with different generations. What it does is kind of change form. It's a very resilient ideology, and what happens is it tends to take on a new form, and so we don't recognize it because it's it has a different a different outfit, so to speak. So slavery is different from Jim Crow, which is different from civil rights, which is different from judicial system, which is different from
today. Yeah. Oh, you are on for a second. So all of those things play a factor. And she kind of lays that out a lot in in her book. So if you are one of our guests and you are still trying to get on and you haven't been able to get on, a few things to check out. Try Google Chrome. Is a better connection, and the next best I heard is Fire Fox, right now the theory night, Terry, I'm trying to let you on, so I click to let you on, but you have to accept in order to connect. If your laptops and computers are typically optimal for this connection. However, if your laptop or your computer is not working, then we can try your phone. If that works, phones are not my primary choice, but we could try that as a device, or if you have a Kindle or a iPhone, really anything that can get internet, Internet access and a camera works pretty good, so right now I am still trying to get our guest on. Looks like material might be able to get on. Okay, your screen is black. Could you say something? Say hello, hello. All right, so we can't see you only just because it's dark, but we can hear you, which is awesome sauce, and you'll probably be at a location shortly where we can actually see your face. Our other guest is still trying to, you know, get on, and I believe, yeah, the other two are just still trying to get on. So I'll go ahead and start with you, if that's okay. Okay, that sounds good. Okay, so I just want to start with these things. So tell us your name, what is your relationship to this particular topic, and tell us something that you are passionate about.
Okay, so my name is nakira Mickey. My relationship to this particular topic is that I was previously incarcerated, and so it's really sensitive and close to my heart, and I have faith firsthand the tremendous barrier it is to transition that from, you know, coming back into society, basically, that's the head of interest in this topic and within this subject.
Thank you. Also, natira, tell us something about you that we can't find out from your bio.
I so I asked one thing about me, I'm
just very outgoing. I'm a busy friend, I think, outside of the box, and I see things that look impossible to others as possible.
You talked a little bit earlier about knowing firsthand about the difficulty in terms of transition. Can you talk about transitioning? Can you talk a little bit more about that?
Okay, so just a little bit in reference to that, just the fact of from a female's perspective, point of view, it was still criminal justice system and how it has been set up and all those things, and how a lot of the services and a lot of the Things that have been put in place to service individuals who have been incarcerated was mainly geared to males in the earlier times, because males were, I mean, it was higher numbers of males incarceration. So now that the numbers are changing and women are they're their their numbers and rates are increasing, increasing. There's not enough services out here for them. So once I, you know, within a couple times incarcerated and different things like that, when I came back out to try to advance society, I was faced with a lot of different challenges. I was faced with challenges and barriers to employment, housing, and of course, I was a single mother, so that we made it even more difficult. A lot of the services that they had available for individuals who were low income unavailable to be because of background at that time. And it was certain things that were put in place. So it was just a lot of just different roles. Well, everything that I tried, when I tried to get into college, I had to go through a specific process of that. Everything so dealing with the emotional strain of being incarcerated and making a kind of like a place where you are being kind of socialized in the sense to act and live a certain kind way. That was really challenging. And so what I mean through that process, you know, I had a lot of ups and downs, and I really had to take struck that I never even knew. I had to make it. So that's why I'm so interested in that. Because I want to assist other people who have been incarcerated, who actually have, you know, gotten out and and are trying to turn their lives around and do something different. I want to assist them in doing that. Because when I was there, I needed a helping hand, but it was so it wasn't going to be found. So basically, just the just the trouble and all, and then also just being a single mother and having to transition, not only that, so that I can provide for my family, but also to be able to provide for her emotionally as well. And so that whole situation was like a little off as well, so all of that stuff,
right? No, thank you for that. So I'm going to go to Elizabeth in a moment. But natara, we when, when you're talking, could you hold up, like, put the camera down and set it up on something. It's shaking a little bit as you talk. Okay, um, so Elizabeth, welcome. We, they're trying to get you on, and now you're on. I feel like I want to do a little cabbage patch now. Uh, so glad to have you. Please tell us who you are, your relationship to the topic, and tell something that you're passionate about.
Okay, my name is Alyssa back and I live in Indianapolis, Indiana. I'm a drug and alcohol counselor, and I'm passionate about seeing women's lives change. I'm a drug and alcohol counselor. I've been doing that now for about 15 or 16 years, and the majority of my clients are incarcerated, so it's about trying to give them the skills that they need, so that when they come home, they don't have to go back into the system,
absolutely. And can you tell us something about you that we can't find out from a bio?
Well, I will tell you something about me is that I am a recovering alcoholic myself, and it's through God's grace and mercy that that's no longer issue that I have to deal with. But all of us are in recovery from something. It's not talking about other issues.
Absolutely, when you you talk about your experience a little bit with drug and alcohol, and now you're in a position where you're able to serve others and help them to make that transition through, you know, basically kind of like healing, a healing process. Tell me a little bit about the relationship between drug and alcohol abuse and incarceration. How does that go hand in hand? How do they do they enable each other? Are they? Is that a relationship? What does that look like? That
is a very strong relationship between drugs and alcohol, because you find out that the majority of the women that are incarcerated have issues with drugs and alcohol, and a lot of time the using the substance is a crutch, because it's another deep hurt. So many of my clients that I deal with like me are victims of sexual assault, and they never told noone that. So they end up turning to drugs and alcohol as a means of escape.
Absolutely, I could definitely see that. And then if you're in a situation, I'm guessing, where you're trying to self medicate through the herds, and then if you have some of the challenges, like what material, material mentioned earlier in terms of employment challenges, housing challenges, like those are all like things that could stress you out. That's like a huge emotional stress material. I don't want you to feel like you need to look at the camera at all, because I see that you're driving. Okay,
yeah, okay. No, somebody's holding it in a passenger
okay. I'm not going to
look at the camera at all. I'm looking at the road. I'm listening though you're on a hands free so I can hear you in the car. Okay,
good deal. Good deal. So tell me about Natura. Want to hear from you. What are some of the biggest misconceptions about women who have been incarcerated, incarcerated,
I guess you could say some of the biggest misconceptions about women who have been incarcerated is that they are not, they. They are not worthy, or they are not, I guess, in a sense, worthy ism is a good term that I can use. They're not worthy of assistance or or help, or they are. They are worthless, in a sense, because after you are released and you have to deal with all of that stuff, it gets to a point where, so that's how you begin to feel, because that's how the system treats you. So I think that that's one of the biggest misconceptions, because they forget that, although that's just one of the many, that's one of my many traits, that's just somewhere that I've stopped along my way that doesn't define me. So just basically defining an individual by the experience period or by mistake, because we all have. Made mistakes. We just haven't all been caught for them. And that's always been my motto. Because everybody, noone, is perfect. So sometimes we put we as women, you know, we put in people in general, put ourselves in situations where we, you know, make mistakes and we have to suffer the consequences. However, we shouldn't have to suffer forever. So once we come out, and now you have people looking down on you, looking down on your skill level because you have a criminal background, they want to pay you less money. They want to they want to relocate you and neighborhoods that are, you know, really not safe for your children and, you know, raising your families and different things like that. So just the fact that you know we cannot be rehabilitated, or we are not worthy of being rehabilitated, is one of the things that I can I will say
misconception. Yeah, I definitely appreciate you sharing that, because to me, what that says a lot too, is like worthy and unworthy, poor, who deserves assistance, who deserves help. And we, and we do make those decisions when we're like, you know, even in help, in helping professions and social workers, I'm a social worker. As social workers, we decide who is worthy to be helped and who's not worthy to be helped, who deserves our money and who doesn't deserve and I can see the stigma that's associated with having been incarcerated because you made a mistake, and then it's like you have to pay for the rest of your life because of you can't live in a particular place. And then if you're only able to live, let's say, in high crime, high drug areas, then you're likely to repeat whatever got you there in the first place, exactly,
and
I'm sorry No, go ahead and
definitely even dealing with that, you know, basically, you know, being in those same living situations and in those, you know, in those environments, and having all of those, those, those doors slammed in your face over and over and over again, because, I'm telling you, it was by The grace that I was able to make it, because I almost gave up. And completely gave up, I almost lost my mind going through that transition and trying to do something different with myself. And sometimes everybody does not have that extra, that extra, that extra up to put into it, and that's why it's easy for a person to go back, and that's why recidivism rate is so high, because of how the system is. It's a systematic herb, you know. And so policies and different things like that need to be put in place. They need to be changed and put in favor of individuals who have, you know, been, I'm not going to say victimized because you did something well who had suffered, you know, and and went through this type of situation in Fall Street.
Thank you for that, Elizabeth, can you speak a little bit to how some of the people who have experienced some of the trauma that Natera is talking about go to how they how are they before being incarcerated, like if, if, when you hear the story of their life, where did drugs start to show up? The heaviest um, in their in their journey, how much of drug use is coping or whatever their situation is, the majority
of the clients that I deal with, especially because I work in a woman's prison now, the drug substance started very early in their lives, early, you know, because I can even talk about my own self, from being molested as a child, I started using substances probably, you know, in my 18 to 19. But if, if you don't, if you're feeling hopeless, the majority of them probably starting where maybe from 14 on up, because I don't feel love, I don't feel accepted. So it's easier to use drugs as a means of escape.
And so what are some of the things that because you work in a in a correctional facility. Yes, I do. So what are some of the things that are set up that help them to not go back to drugs once they get out?
Well, one of the things that they do is, like, they help them, you know, get birth certificate. I mean, like, if they need a social security card, they have classes where they can learn how to write resumes. They can get their GED. They can even do training for to do work in a restaurant, like doing safe serve. They can also become a licensed beautician. They can take computer classes, college classes and different things like that and get their GED. Those are right
there. Those are all good. Tell me about So you talked a little bit about some of the drug use from like early, early childhood trauma that you know that already just puts them in a different space, a different mindset, and you're making decisions based on. Resources, the information that you have at that time, like I was molested, I went through this. This is, this is something that's going to help me COVID and deal with, what is a drug like? What is the drug use like in jail? Do Do they have access to drug use? Is it easy? Is it what is that like?
You know, it's always there. Because when I first started doing drug and alcohol counseling, I didn't think, you know? I thought, Oh, well, when they're incarcerated, they're clean, but they, believe me, it's there too. So some of them have to make a choice not to use it, but it's there. One of
the things that natira mentioned earlier is the emotional strain. Yes, what is the biggest emotional strain that you find people are trying to medicate for
a lot of them are medicating. Okay, I'm like you. I'm a social worker. So many of them are not properly diagnosed. So you're dealing with women who have depression by No.
One never really talks about in the prison. How many of those women there really need being incarcerated is not the answer. They need more psychological help and mental health services. They're not getting those services. Yeah, I
definitely agree with that, that basically the the issue is deeper than the substances. Basically, it's a deep, rooted issue, and it's rooted in trauma and so, you know, and then to be re traumatized within that system as well is kind of, you know, because that's basically what's going on. You're being re traumatized. You've already been traumatized. You committed these at that trauma, and now you've been thrown into a system that is now re traumatizing you and you know, so now you're kind of like even more worse off than you were beforehand. So instead of really targeting the issue, you're kind of like just putting a band aid.
So it sounds like what like from you guys's personal experience and everything that you've observed, it sound like it's really more mental, mental illness, mental health issues that should be addressed be beyond or outside of just putting a person away. Because that's not Yeah,
and that's true, because I'm telling you is so many of them that have some serious mental health issues, and they closed down a lot of the state institution that was serving people with these issues. And the only other answer is to lock them up and throw the key away, but that's not really helping them with their problems. Then you put them back out on the streets. Housing is an issue. Okay? I don't have proper housing. I don't, you know now, I've gotta live on the streets. How am I going to provide for myself? So I'm going to turn back and do what I always did, which is the easiest cape of using the drugs.
Yeah. What are some of the things that you mentioned, some of the things that are that are offered in the in the correctional facility where you work, in terms of GED classes and training, or some of the other things that you mentioned, what have you found has been the most helpful in helping the helping women not to recidivate, or helping women to even heal, because sometimes, I think a lot of times, we think we just need to get people a job, and that's going to fix everything.
And now that just getting somebody a job, this is an issue that, even before I start doing drug and alcohol counseling, that I was passionate about was getting people mental health services, talking about the issues that cause that are being incarcerated in the first place. And I just feel like we live in a society where we want people to go to prison and think when you get out, you're supposed to be well, and you're not going to reach, you know, go back to prison or anything. But if you don't have the services you need, when you get out, you can go right back in again.
What is okay go ahead,
and then it becomes revolving door.
Well, what are some of the the policies that that do help, or what are some of the things that do help once the once people get out, like, what helped you in your situation, to, you know, to just kind of move on and to heal and to what helps, you
know, and I guess for me, when I can talk about me, what helped was I had. A lot of friends that were there to encourage and support me. And because I'm so passionate about what I'm doing, I want to see women's heel. What I did was I went out and I started, you know, a woman's organization. Where not a big organization, but we're, you know, we're out there on the forefront, and we talk about issues that are important to women like every year we do a campaign on sexual assault. I just had an event last week that was talking about recovery and women recovered. So I try to keep those type of issues out there, because I'm, I'm a real believer in that the only time you should look down on a sister is when you're extending a hand to help her up. Amen
to that. So one, I keep hearing some of the it's like some of these things that sounds like they're very thematic in terms of like they're coming up in relation to incarceration and drug abuse. Are they like? Yes, like, in terms of like percentages, what will you say are the number of women that you had in been in contact with that have been incarcerated, that has either been either been sexually assaulted or had previous experience with abusing drugs.
You know, I have to say something, because all of my clients, they are in that issue. I'd say the majority of the women who are incarcerated have some type of issue with drugs or alcohol
that happened before they got there,
right before they before they got there. Could you find out is that a lot of time when women are incarcerated, it's more for petty crimes.
Tell me more about that. What are the with the women that you have worked with, what are the typical crimes that you see that they're actually incarcerated for
shoplifting, boosting drug, you know, having, you know, selling drugs or prostitution, you know, trying to think about that. That's probably and now you're seeing some of them who are in there for more serious crime, but the majority of their crimes aren't that serious. But the biggest problem with so many of them is that they don't have their they don't have good education, so they have difficulty getting a job. So it just seemed like everything is marked against them, and when they're feeling low down and discouraged, they go back and do what they always did. Then another thing is that it's so many of these women have been in abusive relationships, so they'll go right back out and get in one abuse relationship to another relationship because they don't know what a healthy relationship looks like.
And one of these. So you mentioned that a lot of them are there for, like, petty crimes, or, like, you know, smaller things. Are the the women at the place where you where you work, are they there for any particular significant amount of time? Like, what is the average sentence on some of these?
You know, what? Whether it's what ironic is, now in the criminal justice system, women are getting more and more time. I mean, because it's not uncommon to see a woman do eight years or more in prison now. So where I'm at Are you have the one that the they're getting more stiffer sentences, so they're spending more time incarcerated, much more time, because, on the average, my clients, they have to be down to 18 months of have 18 months level of their time before they're eligible to be eligible for our program. So some of them have been locked up for years. I mean, even there's some, because my minds is more. It's kind of funny. We have women there that been locked up for over 30 some years. Wow, yeah,
wow.
I'm really curious to know and Sierra back on. Sorry. I'm also Facebooking live, so say hello to Facebook Live. Facebook Live, if you want to share, if you want to catch this live and participate in the conversation, go to fire talk.com, forward slash Rasheem. Firetalk.com, forward slash Rasheem, and then you'll be able to catch where the show is actually right now. Alright? And for everyone who just recently tuned in, you are watching the counter narrative. This is this episode is orange. Is not the New Black, and we are talking about race, gender and incarceration. Thank you, Steph, for being here, George, thank you for being here, even in the pre show. Tia, thank you for joining us, Elizabeth, who's on camera. Thank you also, and thank you also. Dante, one of the things I want to ask you about Elizabeth is a lot of these women I'm imagining, at the very least, are mothers, yes, and so they're going away for six I mean, like, I don't even have to say. Years really like, even if you're going away for one year and some months for 18 months, that is a long time for a mother to be away from her children. What is that like? And what what is that conversation like? What comes up for them when you talk about their children and their family.
You know, their children are very sensitive to them, and because, in fact, I meant to look it up, but I remember when George, when Clinton was in office, because there's a lady there that she's been gone. I'm not sure how long she's been gone away, but she's upset because she wasn't married to the man that she was living with, so since he wasn't her child's father, this child had to go into foster care, so that is really hard for her to have to deal with. And you know, I never really paid that issue, no attention until I heard her say that one day, talking about she said, because she's really upset, because she wants to be reunified with her daughter, but right now, because she's been gone out of her child's life for two years, that child was pulling to the foster care system.
Wow. So a lot of times, I mean, it sounds like it sounds like it's this, it's a very cyclical thing in terms of, okay, something traumatic happens to me. I self medicate by drug addiction or abuse. I go to jail. I have children. My children are now into the foster system, which increases the chances, from all the studies that I've seen in terms of them being sexually assaulted them using drugs, and it's just like this on sounds like it could be like this ongoing thing. Um, how so? How do they like when, when they transition from in the services that you provide, they've been medicating themselves that there may be some mental illness there that is not being addressed. They've been misdiagnosed or not diagnosed, so they're not really getting the treatment that they need. And so they come to sessions with you, but they've been self medicating all this time. What do they do? What tools and coping mechanisms do you give them to cope without substance?
Well, you know what? We talk a lot about getting them to love on the reflection in the mirror. We, you know? We try giving coping skills. We buy different different tools and different things that they can use when they get outside. Because I always tell them when they leave that they need to be going to meetings. Get a sponsor. That is so important, to have a sponsor to help keep them on the right track, having someone they can be accountable to and talk to when they're going through something, so that they don't feel all alone. Because I think that's a lot of time. Why so many of them recidivate is they don't they, you know, they're going back to that old neighborhood, you know, the drugs is there well, and I'm feeling really down and bad. I'm gonna go back and do what I always do. But if I've got somebody I can call on the phone and talk to, hey, that might be just what I need that moment to stop me from going out there using
you bring up a really good point. Can you tell us, some of us, in terms of, if we have family members who are incarcerated and who are getting ready to be released and about to be returning citizens, how can we help them transition better?
You know what I think how we can help them transition better is, don't make excuses for them, be real with them, and also try to find out about the disease of addiction. It is a disease, and we need to stop trying to rescue our family members, you know, hold them accountable for their actions, but also, but you know what love on them? Because I think they need so much love, because I get so mad sometimes, you know a addict to another addict their record they will when they're walking them back when they come home. But sometimes I'm like, okay, where the church is at when these people are getting released from prison, some of these are members of your church. Why aren't we on that same bandwagon? Welcome them back when they come home.
Absolutely, I totally agree. Do you feel like, because this particular topic is about race, gender and incarceration, do you feel like there are specific needs that women who have been incarcerated need?
Yeah, they, they do. They're they? Women in particular, they have more need. You know, I don't want to say that they have more need than men, because they don't, but women, they do have some needs that they really do have a lot more needs to be met, like, especially when I'm talking about the mental health issue, because when that woman's been down for any length of time that's affected her. Self esteem, how she feels about herself and everything.
Mm, hmm. So how would you, how would our approach, let's say, to a sister, be, in terms of ways that we can help her, that you think might be different from how we might interact with a guy, with a man? You know what? I
guess, to me, it's just when that woman comes back being there, just having a, you know, sometimes having a sister friend, you know how important that is, just to have that sister friend that I can talk to, that can encourage me, motivate me, sit in our cards, just spending time doing things with her. Because, like, you know, a lot of time, what I do with my organization is I go out to different shelters where women at and just provide them with encouragement and support, like, you can do this. I believe in you, but then also, I'm going to be frank and real with them, because, like, I'm telling you, I ain't going to sugarcoat it. I ain't going to lie to you. I'm going to tell you like it is because I feel like if I sugarcoat you imma hurt you more,
right? Absolutely. So it's kind of like, kind of like tough love, so to speak. Yeah,
yeah, tough love. Mm, hmm.
Is there? Are there particular drugs or experiences or time period for which it seems like it's harder to come back from when,
you know, it's kind of funny right now and then, well, I think it is naturally everywhere. You know, one that I really don't think I kind of laugh even now. You know, in our presidential election, none of them is really talking about drug academic. Now, our president has said something about heron. Heron is really bad out there on the streets in Indianapolis, is a big concern, because in Indianapolis, most places, you have more people that are overdosing off of hair right now because they're putting other things into it and the and I'm a big proponent about the pain pills. Nobody looks at that. You know, so many of our people are medicating off of pain pills, the Vicodin. You know, all of them trying to find an escape,
right? All of it is like, it sounds like a lot of it is around escaping pain, escaping hurt,
that I don't I mean, it's like, I don't want to feel nothing. I want to feel numb, right?
No, I totally get that. One of the things natira mentioned is that there's not enough services once they get out. No, there's not. What type of services would you would you recommend there be that? Could, that could be a good support? You
know what to me, I this is something I venture I would love to see my organization do is, is like when these women come home, they need to have a place where they can go, they can have meetings, where they can you, where they can have medical care, just a one stop shopping approach, where you get everything met in one place.
So, like, get their medical needs met. Also have, like, some sort of sisterhood accountability location, where sisterhood
accountability, where they can take, like, GED classes, you know, just basic, simple stuff that we don't think is important. It's like cooking a meal, you know, how do I shop? You know, so many of them, if no one's never told me that before, I don't know how to go to grocery store shop, you know, just simple, basic stuff that these women need. Mm, hmm.
No, that's interesting, like how to grocery shop. That definitely would not have been something that would've came to my mind right off. But no, I mean, it's good. It's good to know. It's a good, good thing. Because,
you know what, if you think about when they get their food stamps, they they don't know how to spend their money, you know? So it just going to the store. Okay? This. So let's make these food stamps last for a month, like
managing resources, basically, right? Like, how do I make this stretch to the end of the right? How? How we talk a little bit about motherhood? Do they typically end up getting their children back when they get out? What is that stop?
You know what? Now, when it comes to children, I'm not real good, but some of them do. But then some of them also could lose their children too, because they go right back out there to the same lifestyle, doing the same thing again. So then they get wrapped up in the system. So like I know I've seen it where I worked at before, what these sisters have done was they've got incarcerated, and while they were incarcerated, their children were put in Child Protective Services. But in order to get back the child, there's so many conditions that you have to meet. And I'm not trying to be funny, if you child protective services, if you're a black woman, they don't we got some special needs and what some white sisters might have different. Needs.
One of the members of the chat room. Stephanie says, My sister has been incarcerated twice, one time as a juvenile and one time as an adult. She is currently serving 18 months probation for assaulting me. She has a few mental health issues that she refuses to get help for. I'm really scared for her. My sister lost custody of her daughter because of her crimes. This is like a big deal. It's like breaking up families, but it's a thing where it seems like there's this congruence relationship between sexual assault, drug abuse and incarceration.
I don't think people really understand. Is that at being black, we fear the mental health system, because I'm afraid that you're going to put this label on me that I can't get off of me. So then, if so, then if I fear the mental health services, I'm not going to take the medicine. Because sometimes the medicine that you have to take for, like, say, if you got bipolar, depression, can have so many negative side effects you don't want to take it. So I'd rather self medicate and take the medicine I'm that I'm prescribed, right?
One of the things that I will say, that I've noticed, and just in general, with the medical system and people of color, is there's just a there's just a general cultural mistrust. And I don't right, and in general, I don't think I know that it doesn't come from any there's somebody in there. I know that there's been Tuskegee experiments. There's been the whole reason why we have OBGYN because men practice on the female slaves to learn about the anatomy and gave them. So I know that there's a history in this country of using black people as science experiments and injecting them with diseases that it that they didn't have in the first place, and there still is some general cultural mistrust with the medical profession, and I'm wondering if some of this and tell me if this has been your experience, Elizabeth, some stigma around seeking mental health services.
Well, especially in the black community, there is a stigma because we don't want to perceive as being crazy. Okay, so we're afraid to get the help that we need, because I don't want somebody to put a level me that says I'm crazy, and if that means I'm and then I'm sorry, black folk as black people in general, I'm not trying to be stereotypical. We we don't get the services that we need, because, for one thing, sometimes we can't afford to pay for those services, they're so expensive,
right? No, that's a good point. So, so there's a couple of things there. There's cultural mistrust, there's the stigma along with it, there's I can't afford it, right? And I think there's also, like, what is this going to do? You know, there's a thought of like, you know, you you're not going to do anything, or it's not going to help. But obviously, from what I am hearing, there needs to be some and one solution. And you tell me, if you think that this is a good fit, Elizabeth is, I think that it might help if we had more mental health professionals that were people of color, that were right, that you feel like you could resonate with and that were also culturally competent enough to know that I may have a different set of backgrounds that determine how I approach a situation.
And I think that is true. We do need to have more in the field. In particular, at Social Work, any counseling, any that there's not enough of people that look like me and you. Because even myself, when I've had counseling, I felt comfortable with going to someone to look like me because they can understand my story or what I've been through. But if I go to a system, and I go somewhere and I see someone else who don't look like me, who don't even, aren't even culture, confident enough to understand my story, what I've been through, who want to judge, oh, oh, she just don't do nothing different. If I feel like you're saying that about me, I don't want to go to you either, right? No, I
totally hear that. Yay. Tia. Tia is here. Can you hear me? Tia,
I can hear you. Can you hear me? Can you see me? It's really crazy, but Yeah, glad to be here finally, can you all see me? Yay. You don't know I put sad faces and everything Facebook Live. I don't want to miss this.
Hello. How are you? Hello. Do.
I'm doing great, my sister, we really need to connect after this. And I think first and foremost, let me just say this, y'all, I don't want to take over the call. I know I'm just getting in. I just want to say, please forgive me for being so late trying to get on. I just was trying. I was in a bad area. My daughter just flew in from Florida, trying to be with her. And then I was in a bad location, and I finally said, Okay, you gotta take me home, because I have to go on this show. So Nevertheless, I'm here, and thank you for really allowing me to be on this call about the orange is not the New Black, because it's really
okay. Yes, I can. I'm glad that you're here. So I want to go ahead and jump in with you, Tia. And I want to first start off by answering the same questions that I asked the other ladies earlier, and that is, tell us who you are, what is your relationship to the topic, and tell us something that you're passionate about.
Okay, I am Tia Titus. I am actually an author, a speaker, a philanthropist. I don't know. I think I had to send you some stuff about me. I'm a community advocate. I am actually my husband and I, we have a business called help management services, and the help stands for helping everyone leave poverty. So that's whether it's a poverty mentality, not having two parent household, even though everybody is not called to be married. But it's that stability helps you from going in and out of the bars, the jail, the jail houses or whatever you want to call and I am really passionate about helping the my my focus is are the women. My husband focuses on the men. But I know that by me being a returning citizen, I actually was, I served. I only served two years, but I was actually sentenced to eight years, and I was suspended all but 18 months. So out of those 18 months, I did five months there, and then another bout with going in and out of the the jail system. I did actually a year and a half. So I was able to really change my mindset. So I know I hear you were talking, I was catching little bits and pieces about the mental, the mental part, the being bipolar and things of that nature. You know, I actually, my heart is dear, very, very dear to that, to to the to the women, mainly, and because, to me, the women go through a lot more than just a minute. So I just wanted to, you know, just really hone in on just that within itself. They go through a lot, you know, most of them have been they went through a lot during their coming up, their upbringing. Some been molested, some been raped, like I stated, the not having the the two parents in the household, so therefore they didn't get the guidance that they needed, you know, coming up. So no, that's pretty much it, until you ask me the next question. Yeah, no,
thank you. So what are some of the kind of misconceptions that you're seeing as it relates to when we talk about women and incarceration?
The misconceptions is that we we as a they forget number one, that we are, we are a human that's number one. People forget. And most people that has never, and some have. They just, some have done crimes. They just didn't get caught. That's just the bottom line. So the misconceptions is that these people, and I say these people, because that's how they really view us as miscreants, really they they view us as miscreants. Um, going to continue to go back and forth and in and out of the jails, but that's to me, that's a lie. I know that's a lot, because look at me, it's been, actually now, up until 18 years that I have not gotten in any trouble, you know. And if you have to change your mindset, of course, and that's the main thing, and that's the the most ultimate thing that I could have done was change my mindset. So far as the misconception, they look at us as miscreants. We're not human. To go in and to me, that's a myth. You're not going to continue to keep going around in that, that same old song that's now that is true. You have to change that mindset, though. Otherwise, you're going to get it. You're going to go through it. Because the stigmas that, that I actually encountered was the guilt, the shame. Didn't want to be around people that look down upon me, because I've been around that, even when I first came on the scene with Facebook, I wouldn't even go I would certain people, I would just let in my circle, because I know they look down on me. They talked about me things like that, and until I caught the revelation and said, I was like, Okay, well, these people, I'm sure that they have. Done some crime, they just didn't get caught. And then I know who God say who I am. He says that I am his. And I might have did some crime, but now I don't have to continue to worry about that. So that that stigma is is a real is that the guilt and the shame is really something that hinders us if we don't wake up and realize that, hey, you got another opportunity. You got another second chance to get out here and and do something different to help that next individual. My thing is the seed reproducing after its own kind. So the seed can reproduce after its own kind. If you go back, you got to go back to pull them out. And so that's what my main focus is, to help. I appreciate
you sharing that. I think a lot of what I got out of what you just said, too, is how some of that stigma can be internalized, to be in shame, where we could just start feeling like, you know, I'm not good enough, or you you just start to believe whatever everybody else say about you, you know. And that's definitely not what's up? Um, Tia, tell me about what are some of the trends that you're seeing as it relates to women and incarceration?
Um, the trends that I've really seen now, a lot of them are starting a lot of movements. And movements have been long as I can remember. You can take this all the way back to the Black Panthers, but I know notice that a lot of men and women have started movements really trying to, you know, change that stigma and and I'm and one of those people that have started a movement. And I actually have a monthly tele summit every month, and I just started it in July. And the tele Summit is not just to hear somebody's story. Yes, I do speak to men and women that have been incarcerated, formerly incarcerated, that now have really become the person that God has called them to be. You know, they have these businesses and something motivated them. A lot of times, they've been like, you said, they've been like I've said rather, they've been incarcerated, but they have come out. But my thing is not just to hear their story. My thing is to start something so that that movement of revolution, so that you can really change that stigma, and the only way to do it is us, because we've been there. So that's one of the things that I've seen. As far as the the trending, I'm trying to think of something else right now. I can't think, but I do know a lot of movements have moved.
So, Elizabeth, you talked about your experience with drug abuse and incarceration, and now you are, you know, making turning your mess into a message, you know what I mean, and you're helping other people transform. How did that come about?
Well, you know, it came about was rather funny. I've been blessed. Like everybody said, I've never got caught for the mess that I did. Okay, I was working in the jail in Indianapolis, and I started noticing that these women were celebrating being in jail. Well, I'm this typical little middle class girl who's been blessed. And I said, Well, Lord, this seems strange to me. Why are they celebrating being in jail? It didn't make sense to me. Even working in women's prison, they still celebrate when they see one another. And that's when God said to me. He said, Elizabeth, you celebrate what you know. If that's all you know, you're going to celebrate. I said, Okay, God, this make no sense to me, and then he's looked at me. He said, Well, guess what? You got bars up too. Only difference is your bars aren't seen. So, you know, things start happening in my life. I turned 50. My daughter was graduating from school, and I decided I wanted to do something to better the lives of women. So that was the catalyst that made me want to change, was I just couldn't understand Why would women celebrate being in jail. So from that, I decided to start my own little movement of being a voice for women to help them we, you know, feel good about the woman that they were to love on the woman in the mirror, because I think that's like Tia says so many of those women that are incarcerated, they have such a low self esteem, they don't feel as though they're good enough. But you know, God says that we're all fearfully and wonderfully made, and it's getting us to see that that can make the difference in the world. Thank
you so much for sharing that before anything happens where I end up like losing you guys, I want you to do two things for me, and the first thing that I would like you to do is if you could talk to someone who is right now incarcerated or we. Leave their release from being incarcerated. What sort of encouragement would you give them? What would you say? See, I actually want to add on an extra one to yours, and I want to ask you to speak to some of the families who are who have loved ones who have been incarcerated, and let them know how they can support their family member who has been incarcerated. And then at the end of that, look at me. I'm double loading this. I want you to let people know. How can they get in contact with you, whether it's your Facebook, your Twitter, your Instagram, or what have you. So first, I want you to share with us the inspiration that you can share with people who may be in that situation, and I'll lead with whoever want to take it
first. Oh, I'm
sorry for me, the inspiration I want to leave with a sister, that you are not alone, that God is there for you, with you, and He wants you to love yourself and be the woman that he created. You do because you are fearfully and wonderfully made, and God loves you and you and you have to realize that you are so much better than what you're going through right now. You're so much better, and you deserve so much more in your life.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree, Elizabeth, I would like to say number one, you you must know who you are and whose you are. A lot of people find God when they're incarcerated, and some don't until they get out, until they really, you know, realize that, but once you find out who you are, then you have a better chance of allowing yourself. You have to give yourself permission to go out here and do what you know that you need to do, but first it's going to start with that crowd of people that should be around you. Have to be around that crowd of people that is going to push you, that's going to help you get to that next dimension, because that's what you have to do. You have to get to that next dimension in your life. And so if it takes you to get a mentor, you have to find first a mentor, somebody that you can trust. Because most of us, when we get from out being incarcerated, we don't trust that's that's the number one key that allows us to continuously, to keep the recidivism going on. You keep going around in that vicious cycle because you don't want to trust that individual. But you pray and you ask God, show me who I need to get under my wing so that they can show me what I need to do, so I don't have to continuously keep going around in this vicious cycle, because that's what ends up happening. So that's what the best thing that I could have done, like I said in the beginning of this mindset, I stress that more so than anything, it was my mindset. Had I not changed my mindset, I wouldn't be where I'm at today. But then you have to, like I said, get that mentor, get a coach, get around those right people. That's going to push you a lot of times when. And I don't know if you read the bio in the beginning, but is it, Rasheem, is that how you pronounce your name? I hope I'm saying it right. Rasheem, Rasheem, I actually had to really, really, like, pull my sleeves up because I didn't know any better. No, I never dealt with any mental, mental things going on. But I was mentally in I was, I was, I was insane when I was going around in them vicious cycles with doing the drugs. You know, I I used to smoke crack cocaine, but if you look at me today, I don't look that way. So I'm saying that to say, just to encourage someone get in that right circle, make sure that that right circle of people can push you to your destiny. Because where everybody we have, we have dreams, we have aspirations, we have things that we want to do in life and for the life of it, we just don't know how. So sometimes you gotta get that right person to show you what you need to do and to the answer the next question. In regards to the family members, you just have to be supportive. You have to give them the that individual to support mechanisms. I mean, a lot of times they might have hurt you. You have unforgiveness in your heart. You're gonna have to somewhere ship down in the inside of you, pull it out and give that individual that opportunity to show because if God gives you a second chance. Why can't a family member can So, you know, and a lot of times I still my family to be to this day and being so all of the accomplishments that I've had, I still don't get the accolades that I would want or I think I should have, but I had to get to my to a point. In my life, and I was like, You know what? Long as I got that right circle people and that right circle friends, that's going to push me where I need to be sure the family members can be there. But I do know that your family really, to be honest with you, that family outside your family, seriously, I'm just keeping
it real Now tell me, tell everyone. Just wanted to say, how can we get in contact with you? Go ahead, I'll ask Elizabeth first, how can we reach out to you, if somebody wants to connect,
if you want to connect, I have a Facebook page, which is Elizabeth me, then also women reaching out has a page called Women reaching out on Facebook. You can go there and you can find information about us as well. Also,
fantastic. Can you Tia?
Okay, you can go to my fan page, which is help management services. You can click on that. You can leave a message if you need to. I'm also on Facebook as Tia tenacious Titus, on Twitter as the joy enthusiast. And let me tell you how enthusiast is spelt, and that's e n, T, H, U, S, E, S, T. And let me first. And as you know, we keep, we keep, we're supposed to keep our brand all together and consistent and all that stuff. I'm with that. I understand that. I get that, but I am a joy enthusiast, because God gave me that name due to the fact that I am a breast cancer survivor. So I and I changed it because the other hashtag was called help manage one. And I was like, God, I'm not feeling this. I'm not feeling this. So anyway, I changed that. So that's why it's a little different. You can also go to Instagram. My Instagram is Tia Titus, just by itself, and that's pretty much it. So because all of this stuff, they got Snapchat, oh, what is it? Snap? Snapchat, or whatever. That's just too much. Y'all. I'm serious, it's just too much. But you have to get out there from a social media standpoint, and if that's what it takes, so be it. But I'ma tell you, I haven't graduated to that yet. I'm just now getting used to the Twitter and Instagram, and then they got all this other stuff, okay, but that's how you get in contact with me. And also my website. You can reach me also on my website, which is Tia titus.com and on my website is my book. The name of my book is unexplainable joy, my triumphant route with breast cancer. So if you go on there, I'll really hit you back. I'm very keen on getting back in touch with me. I'm not a procrastinator when it comes to that. So in other words, I'm a good follow up. So
I also see Anthony, a fantastic co host, is in the audience from another show, Stephanie, if you could put in the chat the next show coming up on hers, mine and yours, um, and anybody who wants to get in contact with me, you can reach me at S rasheem.com, on Twitter, it's s Rasheem. On Instagram, it's s Rasheem. And on Snapchat, it is s Rasheem, um, on fire talk. It is fire talk.com. Forward slash Rasheem. And the next segment is of the counter narrative is race, politics and social justice and social justice. That is going to be October 1 at 9:30pm eastern time again. This has been the counter narrative. This segment is orange. Is not the new black race, gender and incarceration. Thank you so much. Elizabeth, thank you so much. Tia. Tira is not here right now, but I think and appreciate her. There's a show this coming Thursday called hers, mine and yours, and that will be at 930 Eastern Time. You'll more than likely like it. It'll be myself as well as Stephanie co hosting. We're both co hosting it and so join us there. So I am going to go ahead and wrap it up and just thank you so much again for sharing your stories, your lived experiences, your insight, your advice, your wisdom. If there's anything that I could do to support and share more information. Stephanie says, Great topic and great information. Thank you. Thank you. 1000 times, thank you.
Well, you're welcome. You're welcome, and thank you for joining me and know that I have that that show, that re entry, tell assignment is going to be on the October the 10th through the 14th. You would want not to miss that one. There's going to be some power people on there. Awesome. That's going to really thank
you so much. Good night, ladies as well.
Good night. Good night, good night. I i.