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This file was generated by Descript 

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Rupert Isaacson: Thanks for joining us.

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Welcome to Live Free, Ride Free.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson, New
York Times bestselling author of

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The Horseboy and The Long Ride Home.

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Before I jump in with today's guest, I
want to say a huge thank you to you, our

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audience, for helping to make this happen.

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If you like what we do here,
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To find out about our certification
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books, and other courses,
please go to rupertisaacson.com.

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So now let's jump in.

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Welcome back.

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I've got such a treat for you all.

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I've got the incredible Craig and
the incredible George who've ded to

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be back on, which amazes me because
why should they, when they've got

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so many other amazing things to do.

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So, lucky us all right now,
Craig has just come back from

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somewhere close to God physically.

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Let him tell us about that.

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And he's been teasing, I think me and
George with little snippets of where

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he's been the last couple of months.

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And we've been like, all right,
Craig, just fucking tell us more.

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So he's gonna tell us more.

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We're gonna hold a gun to his head.

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George, if he doesn't make
animal sounds we'll cry.

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So, and, and throw our toys
out of the, out of the cop.

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But where we left the last conversation
off with Craig, if you, you listeners

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remember was we, we were getting towards
the importance of journaling and also

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the importance of trying to do things in
tribe and community when we're in nature,

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because that's what our species is.

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There's, I mean, solitude has its place,
but it's not really fully who we are.

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And we also touched on the impact
on the, of the, of the mind

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and the brain and the body of.

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What does being in areas
of high biodiversity mean?

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And you know, both Craig and Georgia,
lucky enough to live in such areas.

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The Cape Peninsula of Africa,
Yellowstone National Park, and

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I'm here in the forest of Germany.

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So I want to kick off with Craig.

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Where have you been?

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Craig Foster: Yeah, thanks so much
Rupert and great to be here with you.

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Joy.

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I know you're

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Rupert Isaacson: not
gonna tell us are you,

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Craig Foster: mum?

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Rupert Isaacson: All right.

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Where's the place that you've been
that you're not gonna tell us?

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So

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Craig Foster: yeah, very fortunate to.

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I visited this research island
which is 3000 miles off East Africa

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in the middle of the Indian Ocean.

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Very remote area of a whole
lot of islands and atolls.

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And it is what we call the
near pristine environment.

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So not much fishing has, has,
you know, pressure there at all.

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And it's absolutely startling because
literally everywhere you look there's

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a shark and there's a ray, there's
a, you know, manter afin coming up.

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They're, you know, just
birds soaring everywhere.

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There's predations going on.

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Huge fish in the shallows.

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You know, you can see tuna snorkeling.

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It is large numbers of predators.

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And it's just as I was saying, you know,
earlier the, I, I live in an area, in a

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beautiful area here, the kelp forest, and
there's a lot of life, a lot of animals.

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But this is at another level.

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And the, the sheer force of the
biodiversity, the life force that's

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pumping through this place, it
does something to your, your being,

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to your mind, your body, your
spirit that is hard to quantify.

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I mean, it's hot, way
hotter than I'm used to.

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There are a lot of biting insects.

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You know, it, it's, it's, you'd think
it would be, it would deplete your

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energy, but it actually just gives
you this incredible vital force.

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And it's, it's fascinating.

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I could do, you know, two or three times
more physically than I can normally do.

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So it affects you in a deep way.

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And it affects your whole being.

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It's very, very hard to, to quantify.

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And the only, what I can say, what,
what struck me almost as amusing

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was, you know, we do all these
things to stay mentally healthy.

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Like in a, I do this breathing
protocol and I do in a, the cold work

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I do, you know, meditation, all this
kind of stuff to try and keep sane.

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Me too, too,

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in a place I couldn't resist in a, in
a place like this, I can, I just stop

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all of that and I feel just way better.

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And, and what it, what
it strikes me is that.

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You know, all these things we try and
do to keep sane is just purely, all

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we are trying to do is get back to
the state that our ancestors lived in.

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Yeah.

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Our, our, our design.

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That's all we are trying to do.

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We are just trying to feel human in
a, in a, in a, in the strange world

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that we've created for ourselves.

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Rupert Isaacson: George, you live in
one of the flagship biodiverse places.

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Oh, look Craig got baboons walking on
his head, in his own, in his own office.

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Yellowstone National Park.

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Some people think of that.

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Tourism traffic jams.

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Some people think of that
pre-Columbian, you know, pre

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Columbus American wilderness.

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Of course it's both.

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And of course it's very important
that the crowds can go there because

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without access, similar to where
you live, Craig, you know, false bay

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in in South Africa, people can go.

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People, you know, surfers will
go camp, get in there, people

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can go beach, C whatever.

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And this, this thing of access and the
desire for access, remains deep in us,

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even when we're urban and suburban,
as you say, Craig, there's this, all,

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all these things that we do from mind,
body, and soul are simply just trying to

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get back to what it feels like to live

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in the state.

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We're sort of supposed to, as our
species in the habitat we're supposed

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to be in, that we now basically no
longer do live in and have lost an, an

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almost lost the ancestral memory of, but
luckily it does still drive us there.

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So George, before the we hit
record, you were talking about

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revisiting paths that are known.

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And I like that.

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I like the fact, like I revisit
Yellowstone sometimes and I like the

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fact that there are certain drives
and a obvious one is the Lamar Valley.

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'cause one wants to go there and
see wolves or big herds of bison.

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So, and every time you say the Lamar
Valley, there's almost a little party

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goes, oh cliche, the Lamar Valleys.

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Of course I'm gonna go to the Lamar Valley
for the people that know Yellowstone.

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Of course, as soon as you go there and
it's just one road, it's the same road.

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You always drive it.

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It's never the same.

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It's never the same.

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The, the animal life that's going on,
the wolves, the bears, the the bison.

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You made this point about taking
just hikes that are known hikes and

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then just revisiting in different
ways, which I think is another way

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of hunting out this biodiversity
that we need for our wellbeing.

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Talk to us about that, but before
you do it, make a, could you please

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make an animal sound that you might
encounter along that just, it's cool.

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George Bumann: Actually,
I'll give you one.

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I heard this morning, I was just walking
the dog and along the Yellowstone

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River, and as you do, as we do,
there's a, there's a wolf out there.

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I never did see it and we didn't have
time to drive across the bridge and a

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couple miles back, but there was a wolf
over there to the south about a mile away.

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And the way we knew was the coyotes, one
particular coyote was alarming for 20, 30,

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40 minutes constantly while we were there.

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And who knows how long before and
their typical call was when they're

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saying, hi, this is our turf.

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Is

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that, that sort of lets the neighborhood
know that they're still at home and

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stay on their side of the fence.

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But it was, this call this
morning sounded like this

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and it just went on and on and on.

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And they don't do that
unless there's trouble.

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That's, that's an alarm bark.

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And over the years I've come to know,
even from a distance of three miles or

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however far one could hear exactly what's
going on across the valley just by tuning

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into the, the natural conversations.

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And you're right, the, the goal
really is, is trying to shift our

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perspective, even in commonly held
places to see what, what Craig is

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talking about in, in common places.

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You know, if you're, if you're super
motivated, you know, this might be the

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summer of butterflies for you or, or
pick a, pick a topic, pick a location

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and, and study it as much as you
possibly can and find those things.

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But for us lately, we live here, you
know, and yes, Yellowstone is crowds.

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It's, it's been mounting earlier
in the year as the years go

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on, and they're staying later.

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And, but that's one tiny
piece of a place that's 2.2

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million acres in an ecosystem
that's approximately 18 million.

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There's a lot of space that has no people
and, and a lot of people enjoy that

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ability to get away from what is normal,
normal existence for us these days, and

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find that little slice of themselves that
still yearns for this diversity, this

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wildness, this freedom, true freedom.

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Not freedom of press or not freedom
of, you know, religion, freedom

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of being that these places offer.

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And for us being here and it's like, oh
my gosh, we all, even living here, we

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we're tied to the computer so much and
other things, but making a date on the

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calendar and, and sharing it with my wife.

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We're like, we're going Thursday.

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I don't know where we're going.

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We've always looked at this one place
and we haven't walked in there ever.

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Let's just go, it might be a half
hour walk, it might be three hours.

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And lo and behold, we, we
might stay six or eight.

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We, but so often in spending time
with people who may have never

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come here before, there is a very
profound sense that some articulate

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as a feeling of coming home.

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They've never been there before,
yet it feels like coming home.

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And I think that space is available
to us, not just in places like

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Yellowstone or, you know, the, these
far reaches of the world that, that

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folks sometimes get to the best place
to step over that threshold is literally

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out the threshold of your own door.

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Rupert Isaacson: Well, Craig
made a really good point about

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that when we were last talking.

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Do you remember, Craig, you were,
you were saying that when you found

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yourself in London the last time you.

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We're needing to try to
ground yourself with nature.

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And of course London actually
does have big parks and there is

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quite a lot of wildlife in London.

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I was just there last week and watching
the foxes playing on my mother's studio

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roof again in the middle of London.

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However, you know, when you're tramping
the concrete, like really, really in the

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middle of London it's very good to remind
yourself that you're still on that, on the

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same planet that yellowstone's on or that
that island in the Indian ocean is on.

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Or it used to blow my mind when I would go
up to Scotland, for example, and you could

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walk up in Scotland for like five days
and see like two people in certain areas

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and say, shit, I'm on the same island
that London is on, you know, which is this

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kind of oversized metropolis, you know,
on this small island, but yet it hasn't

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actually conquered the island at all.

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I do hear you with that
coming home feeling George.

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And it can come when we get into the
deep wild places or it can come when we

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find the deep wild in the non wild places
because of course it's still there.

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And Craig's point about finding the
feeding sites of slugs and on algae,

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on paving stones and being able
to see the little toothed edges.

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Of how they've been feeding and then
looking at, okay, well what's the

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story for the, who's coming now to
eat the slugs and who's coming now

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to eat the bird that eats the slugs?

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And there comes this, you know,
PID warbler or whatever it is

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that we are now noticing, which
we might not have noticed before.

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And now we notice, okay, well
there are foxes here and they

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are predating on that burden.

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Suddenly we're back in tracking mind and
we're doing it in the middle of the city.

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That homecoming feeling.

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Something that I wanted to ask you
guys, I think all of us often feel, and

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I'm sure listeners do too, that when
you enter any real focused interaction

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with nature, you basically go into
an altered state of consciousness.

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Or do we, or is it only that we
are living in an altered state of

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consciousness in the, what modern world
that we live in, so that when we go

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back and we find the original state
of consciousness, we consider that

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an altered state of consciousness.

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Which is it?

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Or is it both?

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What do you guys think?

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Craig Foster: It's such an
interesting question Rupert.

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'cause it feels when, when we've
got so much distraction now, and

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I, I can immediately go back to.

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You know, month or so ago on the
island and no cell phone signal.

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I was, you know, often alone for hours
and hours and tremendous quietness

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and everything quietens down and you
feel like you in an altered state.

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But that then you soon realized
that's the, that was the

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normal state of our ancestors.

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And while you were talking, I
was thinking, well, you know, our

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minds, our minds are built, they're
built from the, the, the bricks

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of the minds of our ancestors.

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That's how we, we are only
thinking like we are because of

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those who have come before us.

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Mm-hmm.

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So when, when I'm making a fire or
whatever, you know, that deep home

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erectus ancestors right there doing it.

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So, I think that we are in some sort
of altered state now that has been, but

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it's kind of like it's a shallow state
because we've got so many distractions.

00:15:36.300 --> 00:15:41.270
So we can't get into that deeper
state that you need for tracking,

00:15:41.270 --> 00:15:44.830
that you need for understanding
animals because of all this

00:15:44.830 --> 00:15:47.110
technology and all these distractions.

00:15:47.540 --> 00:15:49.760
So it's a really interesting
question you ask.

00:15:49.760 --> 00:15:51.200
I mean, it can be flipped either way.

00:15:51.200 --> 00:15:52.100
What do you think, George?

00:15:52.100 --> 00:15:52.160
Hmm.

00:15:53.345 --> 00:15:54.065
George Bumann: I agree.

00:15:54.215 --> 00:15:57.185
It's a wonderful question.

00:15:58.205 --> 00:16:04.805
Because it's, I think it, it gets to where
we've come in the last few centuries,

00:16:04.805 --> 00:16:11.255
which is a, a state of being that is,
that occupies a space independent of, of

00:16:11.255 --> 00:16:17.855
that which our, our brains building blocks
were founded on, as Craig said, and, and

00:16:17.855 --> 00:16:23.405
we're just sort of in this maelstrom of,
of activity and input trying to adapt

00:16:23.405 --> 00:16:29.825
to this new situation that is so foreign
to the very substance of what we are.

00:16:30.905 --> 00:16:35.525
And so, yeah, when we do get into those
spaces and states, it's, it seems altered

00:16:36.755 --> 00:16:42.485
and yet those, those states are where
the greatest listening, the greatest

00:16:42.485 --> 00:16:43.985
discoveries, the greatest creative.

00:16:44.015 --> 00:16:44.705
We always say this.

00:16:44.705 --> 00:16:48.425
My wife and I, Jenny will go
for a walk and we do it out

00:16:48.425 --> 00:16:50.195
of exasperation sometimes.

00:16:50.195 --> 00:16:51.905
Like just, we need to get away.

00:16:52.025 --> 00:16:52.775
We need to get out.

00:16:53.765 --> 00:16:56.105
We're gonna drive, not we
could walk at our back door.

00:16:56.105 --> 00:17:00.365
We just to mentally create this
space, we drive somewhere and

00:17:00.905 --> 00:17:03.845
instantly we're interacting

00:17:04.625 --> 00:17:06.905
Rupert Isaacson: better, more genuinely.

00:17:06.905 --> 00:17:07.475
Question.

00:17:07.895 --> 00:17:09.425
That was gonna be my next question.

00:17:09.605 --> 00:17:16.325
What do you guys think
about nature and conflict?

00:17:16.325 --> 00:17:20.405
Resolution, high biodiversity.

00:17:20.945 --> 00:17:22.175
And conflict resolution

00:17:26.525 --> 00:17:27.545
just in your own lives.

00:17:28.595 --> 00:17:30.005
Just go on with that, George.

00:17:30.545 --> 00:17:31.325
Let's go back to your wife.

00:17:31.630 --> 00:17:34.210
And she rises the pan
head from the corner.

00:17:34.230 --> 00:17:34.490
If I

00:17:34.490 --> 00:17:36.155
George Bumann: could make an
analogy, it's like the pores open

00:17:36.155 --> 00:17:43.445
up, you know, it's this flow through
that those settings instill in

00:17:43.445 --> 00:17:46.355
us like it, we're more creative.

00:17:46.565 --> 00:17:50.135
We, we might be talking about
an idea for a program or an art,

00:17:50.315 --> 00:17:51.455
you know, a piece of writing.

00:17:51.455 --> 00:17:54.245
And these ideas just,
they start exploding.

00:17:54.575 --> 00:17:57.065
Like, oh, we could include this
and do this, and yet sitting in

00:17:57.065 --> 00:17:58.685
the house or sitting at the office.

00:17:58.685 --> 00:18:02.465
It's just these, these, this
mental space that we sort of

00:18:02.465 --> 00:18:05.315
build is, is not serving us.

00:18:06.125 --> 00:18:12.365
What serves us is to, to be more
permeable, I guess, is the way that

00:18:12.365 --> 00:18:15.215
it feels like to me when we're out.

00:18:15.935 --> 00:18:18.995
It's not me, it's not you.

00:18:19.175 --> 00:18:22.895
It's not even us as, as a
reference to the people.

00:18:22.895 --> 00:18:29.075
It's, oh my gosh, did you just see that
bird rocket through after that other bird?

00:18:29.105 --> 00:18:29.765
Oh my gosh.

00:18:29.790 --> 00:18:32.195
The, the, there's a rabbit just jumped.

00:18:32.195 --> 00:18:33.005
Did you catch that?

00:18:33.005 --> 00:18:35.405
And you know, it's a great example.

00:18:35.405 --> 00:18:38.915
A friend was doing a lot of
urban school children groups,

00:18:39.815 --> 00:18:40.985
and they give them all a camera.

00:18:41.315 --> 00:18:43.685
And the first three days,
all of the photos were of

00:18:43.685 --> 00:18:45.125
themselves and their friends.

00:18:46.175 --> 00:18:50.015
At about day three, there's a flower.

00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:52.400
There's a mountain scene

00:18:52.700 --> 00:18:53.360
Rupert Isaacson: that's interesting.

00:18:53.360 --> 00:18:53.510
There's

00:18:53.510 --> 00:18:58.700
George Bumann: a geyser, there's
a, a textured log on the ground.

00:18:58.700 --> 00:19:04.250
And to me that speaks to this
inherent curiosity and, and, and

00:19:04.250 --> 00:19:10.820
desire on our part to, to sift into
something bigger and more than us.

00:19:10.820 --> 00:19:16.700
And as a result, we find, I feel
like I personally find more of myself

00:19:16.700 --> 00:19:22.910
or step out of myself as often as
needed by entering those spaces.

00:19:26.120 --> 00:19:27.470
Craig Foster: Can I add to that?

00:19:27.710 --> 00:19:28.340
Yeah, please.

00:19:28.340 --> 00:19:30.140
While I've, I've got the idea in my head.

00:19:30.470 --> 00:19:34.040
So you're asking about the conflict
resolution in these spaces and

00:19:34.100 --> 00:19:34.400
mm-hmm.

00:19:34.640 --> 00:19:37.310
Craig Foster: For me, it's so
unnatural that we put so much

00:19:37.310 --> 00:19:40.160
pressure on our human relationships.

00:19:40.280 --> 00:19:42.530
It's just like that's
never happened before.

00:19:42.800 --> 00:19:43.010
Mm-hmm.

00:19:43.070 --> 00:19:47.900
So, you know, in, in the world of our
design, we have these relationships.

00:19:48.620 --> 00:19:50.480
With all the tiny creatures.

00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:52.310
We've got relationships with predators.

00:19:52.310 --> 00:19:55.520
We've got the relationships
with prey, hundreds and hundreds

00:19:55.520 --> 00:19:59.570
of these relationships with
different forms of animals.

00:20:00.260 --> 00:20:04.220
And a lot of our being
is taken up with that.

00:20:04.640 --> 00:20:05.960
Now we sever that.

00:20:06.050 --> 00:20:11.510
All those incredible threads, those
bonds are severed and all the pressure

00:20:11.510 --> 00:20:13.520
is on these human relationships.

00:20:13.850 --> 00:20:14.360
That's so true.

00:20:14.360 --> 00:20:19.700
When you go into these spaces, it's
those threads start to, to reweave and

00:20:19.700 --> 00:20:26.770
it, it just lifts all that pressure
on your wife or your children or

00:20:26.770 --> 00:20:31.990
whoever, and suddenly you are working
with this pantheon of creatures

00:20:32.380 --> 00:20:34.090
and humans are just part of that.

00:20:34.360 --> 00:20:37.900
And that feels far, far more peaceful.

00:20:40.030 --> 00:20:44.230
Rupert Isaacson: You know what, obviously
Craig and I, you share this we share

00:20:44.230 --> 00:20:50.480
this experience in the Kalahari with
son Bushman who are non warriors and

00:20:50.480 --> 00:20:51.980
appear to be the human blueprint.

00:20:52.730 --> 00:20:56.570
So it would appear that humans are
not really warriors that this comes

00:20:56.570 --> 00:21:02.840
in somewhere after agriculture and
it, so what is gets so confusing,

00:21:02.840 --> 00:21:07.940
I think, is that if you're involved
in agriculture or herding, you are

00:21:07.940 --> 00:21:12.380
involved in nature very deeply and
you still have these big relationships

00:21:12.380 --> 00:21:13.610
with all these different species.

00:21:14.090 --> 00:21:14.960
You still have.

00:21:15.830 --> 00:21:16.670
The weather matters.

00:21:16.670 --> 00:21:18.590
You know, you okay.

00:21:18.590 --> 00:21:27.200
All of the things we know and yet out
of those cultures came, war and conflict

00:21:27.560 --> 00:21:31.790
creation rather than conflict resolution,
overpopulation for some of the apocalypse,

00:21:32.060 --> 00:21:37.940
all of that stuff, fam pestilence all
from overpopulation, you know, whether

00:21:37.940 --> 00:21:39.980
it's in villages, whether it's in cities.

00:21:40.430 --> 00:21:42.500
But that's 10,000 plus years ago now.

00:21:42.500 --> 00:21:47.330
So for most of us, us, you know,
including the three of us sitting

00:21:47.330 --> 00:21:56.030
here, we're inheritors in our immediate
DNA of that conflict warrior culture.

00:21:57.410 --> 00:22:03.590
And, you know, you and I, Craig,
our forebears were colonial pirates.

00:22:04.020 --> 00:22:08.250
You and I were lucky enough to get
involved in land rights restoration

00:22:08.655 --> 00:22:12.745
of the indigenous, very indigenous
people that our ancestors had

00:22:12.745 --> 00:22:14.005
a part in kicking off the land.

00:22:14.065 --> 00:22:18.925
And it was good and felt good to pay
that karmic debt to a large degree.

00:22:19.705 --> 00:22:25.135
You know, George, you are, you are
sitting there in Yellowstone, 19th

00:22:25.135 --> 00:22:27.765
century earliest National Park formed.

00:22:27.765 --> 00:22:27.975
Why?

00:22:27.975 --> 00:22:31.215
'cause they kicked the people out
and you know, the Nez pe Indians,

00:22:31.605 --> 00:22:33.795
I dunno if they were the only ones
there, but they're certainly the ones

00:22:33.795 --> 00:22:36.675
that the stories are told because of
Chief Joseph running away from the.

00:22:37.800 --> 00:22:43.950
The American Calvary hunting him
to, you know, pacify the West.

00:22:44.460 --> 00:22:51.600
And now we come out of that conflict
society, that Viking society, Booman,

00:22:51.660 --> 00:22:58.110
you know, your Germanic you know, Craig,
you are Anglo-Saxon, Dutch, Germanic.

00:22:59.040 --> 00:22:59.700
I am too.

00:22:59.700 --> 00:23:03.000
With that little bit of Ashkenazi
Jew that just won't go away.

00:23:03.570 --> 00:23:04.800
And the Rabbi Rupert.

00:23:05.280 --> 00:23:19.170
But nonetheless we haven't, us both the
ones who helped to Sav, as you said, and

00:23:19.320 --> 00:23:24.000
the ones who wanted to remain connected.

00:23:24.090 --> 00:23:24.660
And

00:23:26.970 --> 00:23:27.660
so

00:23:29.820 --> 00:23:35.760
we've been lucky to find ourselves
in these places of di biodiversity.

00:23:37.620 --> 00:23:39.600
The human mind is biodiverse, right?

00:23:39.600 --> 00:23:42.390
The human mind is like
a, it's like a forest.

00:23:42.390 --> 00:23:49.260
No axons like trees, dendrites going
out to wire like branches, like twigs

00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:52.800
branches and roots to wire with others.

00:23:53.580 --> 00:23:56.370
And it seems that if we get rigid
in our thoughts, we become like a

00:23:56.370 --> 00:24:01.440
plantation of eucalyptus or pines
that someone's gonna chop down or.

00:24:02.070 --> 00:24:06.000
If their mind is allowed to do what it
needs to do, it becomes like a wilder

00:24:06.000 --> 00:24:13.500
ecosystem with more possibility when given
that most people are going to be coming

00:24:13.500 --> 00:24:16.740
out of this feeling of constant conflict.

00:24:17.040 --> 00:24:21.990
This feeling of constantly being in the
amygdala in with cortisol, the stress

00:24:21.990 --> 00:24:27.510
hormone, that we have this crazy tolerance
for it, it seems, but it drives us insane.

00:24:30.510 --> 00:24:37.201
You are both in the business of bringing
the stories from the wild places to

00:24:39.150 --> 00:24:44.940
people screens, to bringing people
directly out into it, to creating

00:24:45.000 --> 00:24:47.160
art that tells the story of that.

00:24:48.930 --> 00:24:56.190
How do you see your roles there
as conflict resolvers, whether on

00:24:56.610 --> 00:24:59.100
the meta scale or the minor scale?

00:24:59.100 --> 00:25:04.020
I'd like you guys to talk about what
you do from that perspective and

00:25:04.020 --> 00:25:11.190
how can through that, how can people
listening pick up some tips about how to

00:25:11.190 --> 00:25:18.060
resolve internal and external conflict
through direct, interactive with nature

00:25:18.060 --> 00:25:22.590
and bringing the stories of nature
that they've tracked back with them.

00:25:23.040 --> 00:25:24.390
Do you wanna kick off with that, George?

00:25:24.450 --> 00:25:25.230
And then do you wanna.

00:25:26.265 --> 00:25:27.405
Just Sure, sure.

00:25:27.405 --> 00:25:27.615
I can

00:25:27.615 --> 00:25:28.605
George Bumann: take a stab at it.

00:25:28.605 --> 00:25:32.915
I, I think it's a, it's a very potent
question and and one that, that

00:25:32.915 --> 00:25:35.705
needs to be worked on all the time.

00:25:35.765 --> 00:25:42.215
I would say because we, by our very nature
have, have done a lot of things that,

00:25:44.285 --> 00:25:47.705
you know, if mankind had its
chance to do over again, maybe

00:25:47.705 --> 00:25:49.175
we would pick a different path.

00:25:49.715 --> 00:25:54.065
But here we are, you know, and I
think one of the greatest services

00:25:54.065 --> 00:26:01.985
to, to life and to community is,
is to tell this story and, and in a

00:26:01.985 --> 00:26:04.295
way that includes all of the voices.

00:26:05.075 --> 00:26:09.215
You know, I spent a lot of time
listening to wild animal conversations,

00:26:09.215 --> 00:26:14.825
and in nature you quickly realize that
there is no Outlander, there is no

00:26:15.005 --> 00:26:18.215
immigrant, it is only us in this moment.

00:26:18.455 --> 00:26:23.585
You know, so poo-pooing the starling
because it's in your, it's European

00:26:23.585 --> 00:26:29.105
ancestry poo-pooing the, the dandelion
because most of those species and or

00:26:29.255 --> 00:26:33.785
variations were brought to North America,
you know, trying to eradicate these

00:26:33.785 --> 00:26:37.745
things when in fact, you know, there is
a, certainly is a place for maintaining

00:26:37.745 --> 00:26:39.725
native plant communities and so on.

00:26:39.725 --> 00:26:47.615
But in nature, all of the conversations
and all of the speakers are valid.

00:26:48.050 --> 00:26:49.940
Accepted and contribute.

00:26:50.215 --> 00:26:51.915
Mm mm So true.

00:26:52.095 --> 00:26:56.450
And so when we tell the story of
Yellowstone, you know, there on

00:26:56.450 --> 00:27:01.340
record there's 30 ish, 35, you
know, tribes that had affiliations

00:27:01.340 --> 00:27:02.840
here, it's probably closer to 50.

00:27:04.670 --> 00:27:08.690
We do our very best in our programming
to bring those voices in, let them

00:27:08.690 --> 00:27:14.960
speak for themselves, not tell their
stories for them, and, you know,

00:27:15.290 --> 00:27:17.720
curate, curate the best we can.

00:27:17.720 --> 00:27:23.690
A a, a re and a res sorting of
the deck so that we have a picture

00:27:23.690 --> 00:27:25.970
that fits the current time.

00:27:27.290 --> 00:27:31.550
It's, it's so easy and we do it
subconsciously, is to, to tell

00:27:31.580 --> 00:27:35.480
the story from our perspective for
which that's all we have, right?

00:27:35.990 --> 00:27:41.150
My Germanic ancestors were the first
settlers in the part of New York that

00:27:41.150 --> 00:27:46.370
was cleared of the Haudenosaunee people
when George Washington cleared the entire

00:27:46.370 --> 00:27:53.090
landscape of those tribal allies to make
way for, for our, my European ancestors.

00:27:53.090 --> 00:27:55.880
And so I can't undo that.

00:27:55.880 --> 00:28:01.400
But what I can do is make sure that
what's going on now is honest about that

00:28:03.620 --> 00:28:10.250
and honest about what we've done to
the, the tribes of non-humans and, and

00:28:10.250 --> 00:28:11.570
allow other people to the tribes of

00:28:11.570 --> 00:28:12.470
Rupert Isaacson: non-humans.

00:28:12.860 --> 00:28:13.700
That's a book title.

00:28:14.600 --> 00:28:17.270
George Bumann: Hmm, perhaps so.

00:28:18.140 --> 00:28:21.170
But, you know, it just diversity.

00:28:21.170 --> 00:28:22.670
We crave that diversity.

00:28:23.450 --> 00:28:26.090
You know, you, you, you want to get
all the baseball cards you want, all

00:28:26.090 --> 00:28:30.620
the, the knick-knacks, you want all,
we, we crave that, that sense of,

00:28:30.620 --> 00:28:33.380
of variety as, as the spice of life.

00:28:33.380 --> 00:28:39.110
And we are not the keepers of
that as an individual being.

00:28:39.680 --> 00:28:41.450
We must be in community.

00:28:42.110 --> 00:28:47.580
We must be in association with others
to supply what we have our blind spots

00:28:47.580 --> 00:28:50.610
for or have neglected or have missed.

00:28:52.290 --> 00:28:53.090
And I dunno.

00:28:53.090 --> 00:28:53.720
I'll stop there.

00:28:53.720 --> 00:28:55.790
I'll, I'll let Chime
and Craig chime in here.

00:28:58.040 --> 00:29:02.480
Craig Foster: So what came to mind
when you asked the question rep was

00:29:05.120 --> 00:29:09.870
fundamentally what I am
trying to bring across.

00:29:09.870 --> 00:29:17.940
And so the help of a, a wonderful
team is this very simple idea that

00:29:18.570 --> 00:29:22.140
Mother Nature is the shareholder of.

00:29:23.265 --> 00:29:26.685
Everything we do, all our
businesses, all our endeavors.

00:29:27.285 --> 00:29:30.345
She is the, the foundation,
she's the life force.

00:29:30.345 --> 00:29:31.065
She's everything.

00:29:31.095 --> 00:29:32.265
Yet we've forgotten that.

00:29:32.805 --> 00:29:37.215
I've said this before, but I
purposely say it again because

00:29:37.215 --> 00:29:38.895
it's such a fundamental thing.

00:29:38.895 --> 00:29:43.335
Like if you take away the biodiversity,
what we are talking about now,

00:29:44.595 --> 00:29:47.835
every single thing will collapse.

00:29:47.865 --> 00:29:51.855
We won't be able to breathe,
eat, function, and, and this

00:29:51.855 --> 00:29:52.845
is what we've forgotten.

00:29:53.175 --> 00:29:53.625
So

00:29:54.495 --> 00:29:55.785
Rupert Isaacson: fire up all that ai.

00:29:56.835 --> 00:29:57.555
Are we gonna power it?

00:29:58.155 --> 00:29:58.425
Yeah.

00:29:58.425 --> 00:29:59.295
Not through nature, it's just,

00:30:00.255 --> 00:30:01.065
Craig Foster: it's just a joke.

00:30:01.065 --> 00:30:02.595
Everything will collapse.

00:30:03.645 --> 00:30:03.705
Yeah.

00:30:03.705 --> 00:30:05.625
Ar ar go very fast.

00:30:06.165 --> 00:30:13.495
So it's like, if we could just put
all this incredible mental force

00:30:13.495 --> 00:30:17.815
we've got into looking after the
most foundational thing that will

00:30:17.815 --> 00:30:21.475
affect every single human's life on
this planet more than anything else.

00:30:22.225 --> 00:30:27.445
It seems the logical way to go, but people
have somehow conveniently forgotten this.

00:30:27.445 --> 00:30:31.915
So it's trying to bring that
story back and how you do that.

00:30:32.575 --> 00:30:36.055
I think, you know, ultimately
it's through storytelling.

00:30:36.085 --> 00:30:38.155
'cause storytelling is this foundation.

00:30:38.920 --> 00:30:41.020
For the way we operate.

00:30:41.140 --> 00:30:44.950
So everything that we see
around us is based upon a story.

00:30:45.310 --> 00:30:46.330
We are the storytelling

00:30:46.330 --> 00:30:47.560
Rupert Isaacson: ape too, you know?

00:30:47.560 --> 00:30:47.562
Yeah, exactly.

00:30:47.567 --> 00:30:48.430
We have the larynx.

00:30:48.430 --> 00:30:48.730
Yeah.

00:30:48.820 --> 00:30:49.240
Yes.

00:30:49.245 --> 00:30:53.350
Craig Foster: So, so we need to
change the story from this massive

00:30:53.350 --> 00:30:56.800
extractive force to one of reciprocity.

00:30:57.550 --> 00:31:02.290
And, you know, the, the, one of the
new and interesting ways we are trying

00:31:02.290 --> 00:31:08.950
to do that is through this project
we've called 1001 Sea Forest Species.

00:31:08.980 --> 00:31:12.490
And I dunno if you want me to go
into some of the detail now, or we

00:31:12.490 --> 00:31:13.960
want you to go into not the detail

00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:14.290
Rupert Isaacson: now.

00:31:14.865 --> 00:31:15.025
Craig Foster: Okay.

00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:20.620
So it's, it's taken many years to get to
the point we are, and it'll take quite a

00:31:20.620 --> 00:31:26.260
lot or more years, but essentially what
we're doing is studying 1,001 animals

00:31:26.260 --> 00:31:32.290
in the great African Sea forest and on
the, the intertidal shore, getting a

00:31:32.290 --> 00:31:34.990
beautiful scientific page on each animal.

00:31:35.050 --> 00:31:36.910
Its proper scientific name.

00:31:37.675 --> 00:31:43.435
And then layering into that powerful
stories, like these incredible stories

00:31:43.435 --> 00:31:48.295
that George tells us of these face-to-face
encounters with these incredible animals.

00:31:49.135 --> 00:31:53.575
The, the, the personal stories
that pieces of their secret lives.

00:31:54.175 --> 00:31:59.335
Then adding to that, these, you know,
high level photographs that are almost

00:31:59.335 --> 00:32:05.575
like love letters to these animals,
beautiful images, short films on them,

00:32:05.935 --> 00:32:08.665
anecdotes, incredible bits of behavior.

00:32:09.295 --> 00:32:14.095
So suddenly you've got this
interwoven digital platform

00:32:14.725 --> 00:32:17.155
that stores all the memory.

00:32:17.185 --> 00:32:20.725
'cause I'm already forgetting half
of what I've already encountered.

00:32:20.725 --> 00:32:21.655
It's too much.

00:32:22.075 --> 00:32:27.625
But if I can store it in there, and the
prof we working with and Jannis, the PhD

00:32:28.105 --> 00:32:32.605
biologist and all the other team members,
we put it in and we create this hive mind

00:32:32.665 --> 00:32:35.250
of this incredible ecosystem hive mind.

00:32:35.250 --> 00:32:35.770
It's like a

00:32:36.560 --> 00:32:37.130
Rupert Isaacson: hive mind.

00:32:37.525 --> 00:32:40.285
That's the follow up to
the tribes of nature.

00:32:40.285 --> 00:32:40.375
Yeah.

00:32:41.635 --> 00:32:48.875
Craig Foster: It, it, it's this incredible
pulsing beating heart of the, these

00:32:48.875 --> 00:32:53.225
creatures and the smallest ones that you
can, you know, most people will never,

00:32:53.225 --> 00:32:58.835
ever see, have stories, have a voice, and
then you can show other people in other

00:32:58.835 --> 00:33:00.815
parts of the world they don't have to go.

00:33:01.340 --> 00:33:02.990
And do it at this intense level.

00:33:02.990 --> 00:33:06.950
They could just take 10 or 50 animals
that they're in their backyard

00:33:07.040 --> 00:33:08.720
really, and do the same thing.

00:33:08.720 --> 00:33:14.090
Build a a hive mind of them
and let them speak as well.

00:33:14.090 --> 00:33:15.920
Let biodiversity speak.

00:33:15.920 --> 00:33:22.640
Let the, the divine creation that
is manifest in nature have a voice.

00:33:23.790 --> 00:33:30.240
It's a very, very powerful way of getting
this idea back that she is this thing

00:33:30.240 --> 00:33:32.100
that's kept us alive from the beginning.

00:33:32.550 --> 00:33:37.980
And if we, if we aren't careful with her,
we, we, we gonna be extinct, basically.

00:33:37.980 --> 00:33:42.420
I mean, it's a horrible thing to say,
but she's holding us up every second.

00:33:45.600 --> 00:33:49.110
Rupert Isaacson: Give us a story
on one of the things that is so

00:33:49.110 --> 00:33:50.970
small that we don't even see it.

00:33:51.150 --> 00:33:51.810
We'll notice it.

00:33:52.290 --> 00:33:54.180
That's in your Thousand
One Species Project.

00:33:55.080 --> 00:33:59.160
Craig Foster: I was just working on the,
it's called the Cape Marella this morning.

00:33:59.340 --> 00:34:00.480
Rupert Isaacson: Cape Marella.

00:34:00.900 --> 00:34:01.560
Craig Foster: Cape margin.

00:34:01.980 --> 00:34:08.340
And these are tiny little predatory
snails, like a cleanup crew.

00:34:08.340 --> 00:34:12.360
They live underneath the sand and they
put their little proses up through

00:34:12.360 --> 00:34:16.620
the sand and they've got incredible
smell and they're just waiting.

00:34:17.400 --> 00:34:22.170
And if any animal is dead or
dying or injured, they come out

00:34:22.170 --> 00:34:24.990
on mass and they just envelop it.

00:34:25.560 --> 00:34:27.540
And they, they consume it

00:34:27.780 --> 00:34:28.710
Rupert Isaacson: in the kelp forest.

00:34:29.040 --> 00:34:29.580
Craig Foster: Yes.

00:34:30.360 --> 00:34:33.180
And you know, 99.9%

00:34:33.180 --> 00:34:34.020
of people have died.

00:34:34.020 --> 00:34:35.520
They've definitely never seen one.

00:34:36.310 --> 00:34:40.330
So if an octopus makes a kill, they
just onto that kill immediately.

00:34:40.330 --> 00:34:42.490
They clean it up, they clean the smell up.

00:34:43.180 --> 00:34:48.370
And what's amazing is they have this
ability, and this is like the secret

00:34:48.370 --> 00:34:53.950
life, if they get a piece of flesh or
a tiny animal that's died, they can

00:34:53.980 --> 00:34:58.840
wrap it into a bundle and pop it into a
compartment on the back of the mantle,

00:34:59.020 --> 00:35:03.100
and then they charge away to try and get
away with this thing that they can eat.

00:35:03.100 --> 00:35:06.370
And I've got images and
pictures of this extraordinary.

00:35:06.370 --> 00:35:07.060
Are there other trails

00:35:07.150 --> 00:35:08.650
Rupert Isaacson: snails trying
to stop them when they do that?

00:35:08.650 --> 00:35:08.920
Yes,

00:35:08.980 --> 00:35:09.310
Craig Foster: yes.

00:35:09.310 --> 00:35:13.480
They, they, they're all fighting like
rugby scrumming to get hold of this thing,

00:35:13.870 --> 00:35:18.010
but it's so beautifully wrapped that they
can get away and then they go underneath

00:35:18.010 --> 00:35:19.840
the sand and away and then consume it.

00:35:20.530 --> 00:35:21.910
So, I mean, it's just there.

00:35:21.910 --> 00:35:25.960
These hundreds and hundreds of these
incredible stories that have now.

00:35:26.440 --> 00:35:30.370
They've just been sitting on this giant
hard drive, just, you know, what's gonna

00:35:30.370 --> 00:35:31.300
happen to, how did you find out about

00:35:31.300 --> 00:35:32.140
Rupert Isaacson: the Cape Marella?

00:35:33.790 --> 00:35:37.810
Craig Foster: I've been, you know,
looking very, very closely at Octopus

00:35:37.810 --> 00:35:42.730
and their kilts and then wondering what's
happening afterwards and looking very

00:35:42.730 --> 00:35:47.230
just, you know, staying still okay after
a kill, just holding on underwater.

00:35:47.230 --> 00:35:50.800
And then you see these tiny little
proses coming up, these tiny

00:35:50.800 --> 00:35:54.850
creatures coming out, and some even
like coming down from the kelp.

00:35:54.850 --> 00:35:59.260
And, and then they go inside the shell
where the, the predation being made.

00:35:59.260 --> 00:36:01.150
And if you're not quick
enough, you don't see them.

00:36:01.360 --> 00:36:03.100
And then suddenly the shell is clean.

00:36:03.100 --> 00:36:04.570
They've just cleaned out everything.

00:36:05.500 --> 00:36:10.520
So it's just from this fine observation
that you, you've see them and then it got

00:36:10.520 --> 00:36:16.010
these incredible, you know, images and
video of this, of these amazing behaviors.

00:36:16.040 --> 00:36:18.890
And you, you get this cent, this,
this smell, this just phenomenal.

00:36:20.240 --> 00:36:22.340
Rupert Isaacson: Before we hit the
record button, you said that it

00:36:22.340 --> 00:36:25.040
was gonna take about a decade to
get all this material together.

00:36:25.340 --> 00:36:29.660
What's your a, do we have to wait that
long, or are, are you gonna release it

00:36:29.660 --> 00:36:31.760
in sort of watchess that we can enjoy?

00:36:31.760 --> 00:36:31.850
Yes.

00:36:32.270 --> 00:36:32.570
Yeah.

00:36:32.605 --> 00:36:33.865
So fairly soon

00:36:33.870 --> 00:36:36.740
Craig Foster: the first layer
of the app will be available.

00:36:37.190 --> 00:36:41.180
You don't need wifi, and people can
take it out into the field and literally

00:36:41.180 --> 00:36:43.040
anything they see will be in there.

00:36:43.130 --> 00:36:45.800
And it's a bit of a tracking
thing to find, find it,

00:36:45.830 --> 00:36:48.620
Rupert Isaacson: anything they see in the
kelp forest or anything they see in any.

00:36:49.520 --> 00:36:51.260
Craig Foster: Anything they
see on the shore or in the

00:36:51.260 --> 00:36:52.580
kelp forest will be in there.

00:36:52.585 --> 00:36:52.715
Okay.

00:36:52.720 --> 00:36:52.730
Okay.

00:36:52.730 --> 00:36:56.390
It's very unlikely they'll find
anything that's not and then that

00:36:56.390 --> 00:36:58.640
you'll be able to get a sense for it.

00:36:58.970 --> 00:37:03.260
But we are gonna add the layers and
layers and layers as as time goes past.

00:37:06.380 --> 00:37:09.500
Rupert Isaacson: Craig, you know,
you've been one of my heroes since

00:37:09.500 --> 00:37:12.710
I've known you, but you just confirmed
why you are one of my heroes.

00:37:13.250 --> 00:37:13.850
It's like

00:37:15.950 --> 00:37:21.310
one of the things which we do
in what we call movement method,

00:37:21.310 --> 00:37:22.450
which is the way we work.

00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:28.660
It started with autism, but now it's
schools or people with, you know,

00:37:28.990 --> 00:37:33.010
looking to for a neuroplasticity boost.

00:37:33.610 --> 00:37:38.200
Is this thing of, okay, fine, not
everybody can get into the forest of

00:37:38.200 --> 00:37:42.160
Germany immediately or down into the cult
forest or into Yellowstone or wherever.

00:37:43.029 --> 00:37:47.680
And yes, you can learn to see the
slug tracks where they've eaten in

00:37:47.680 --> 00:37:57.309
the middle of London, but when you're
a kid who is born to be sort of awed

00:37:59.019 --> 00:38:03.580
as much by the big stuff as by the
little stuff, you may or may not be

00:38:03.580 --> 00:38:06.430
open to something so detailed at least.

00:38:06.759 --> 00:38:09.850
You might need to go through
something a bit more obvious before I.

00:38:10.044 --> 00:38:11.395
You can look for the fine detail.

00:38:11.455 --> 00:38:16.555
And one of the things which we do
therefore, is because people are stuck

00:38:16.555 --> 00:38:21.055
in classrooms because they're stuck in
therapy offices, which are just shit,

00:38:21.234 --> 00:38:26.394
you know, they're just linoleum and
fluorescent strip lights, and so I'm

00:38:26.394 --> 00:38:27.564
gonna hear it make you feel better.

00:38:27.595 --> 00:38:28.194
It's like, no, you're not.

00:38:28.765 --> 00:38:33.294
It's, there's no way you can possibly make
me feel better because look, you know.

00:38:33.924 --> 00:38:40.765
No, but as you say, severed from the
ancestral connection with nature,

00:38:40.765 --> 00:38:42.354
how would that therapist even know?

00:38:43.765 --> 00:38:46.044
So we have this thing about just
bringing the outside inside.

00:38:46.044 --> 00:38:49.314
So generally we do these classroom
makeovers where I'll say, I

00:38:49.314 --> 00:38:51.205
just want to see antler in here.

00:38:51.265 --> 00:38:54.984
I want to see bone, I want to see
sheepskin, I wanna see animal heights.

00:38:55.254 --> 00:38:56.484
I wanna see sand.

00:38:56.484 --> 00:38:57.834
I wanna see wood chips.

00:38:57.865 --> 00:38:59.995
I wanna see different types of light.

00:39:00.234 --> 00:39:06.144
I want to see stuff that would be
in a hunting and gathering camp

00:39:06.805 --> 00:39:10.674
so that when the kids touch it, it
will trigger an ancestral memory.

00:39:10.674 --> 00:39:14.814
And there's enough studies done now
just showing how, for example, toys

00:39:14.814 --> 00:39:17.334
made out of natural objects, you
know, affect the brain better than

00:39:17.334 --> 00:39:18.774
toys made outta plastic or whatever.

00:39:19.644 --> 00:39:24.104
You guys do this on a meta scale, you
know, you bring back these stories, Craig,

00:39:24.104 --> 00:39:29.834
that the films that you've made have
made peop millions, tens of millions of

00:39:29.834 --> 00:39:32.504
people now look more closely at nature.

00:39:32.534 --> 00:39:33.644
You've, you've really.

00:39:33.659 --> 00:39:35.729
I've done an amazing job with this.

00:39:35.969 --> 00:39:40.019
You know, George, your, your books
and the art that you do, I feel

00:39:41.669 --> 00:39:46.229
composites of stories that bring
them into human environments,

00:39:47.789 --> 00:39:51.059
that amazing place that you live.

00:39:51.179 --> 00:39:56.189
And, you know, I said, talk to me, George,
about the process of putting natural

00:39:56.189 --> 00:40:03.479
story into art and then giving the,
that natural story to people to bring

00:40:03.539 --> 00:40:05.429
into their non-natural environments.

00:40:05.879 --> 00:40:08.729
And what's that process for you?

00:40:09.419 --> 00:40:09.689
Hmm.

00:40:10.289 --> 00:40:12.359
Rupert Isaacson: From an
emotional point of view as well.

00:40:14.519 --> 00:40:18.239
Yeah, I, I've seen you and, and
anyone listening should go and find

00:40:18.239 --> 00:40:22.589
the YouTube video of George will put
a link to it doing a, a, a, a Clay

00:40:22.589 --> 00:40:26.819
Wolf and a TEDx talk as, as he's
talking you should see him do it.

00:40:28.859 --> 00:40:29.639
This is story.

00:40:31.799 --> 00:40:32.279
George Bumann: Yeah.

00:40:32.369 --> 00:40:32.579
Yeah.

00:40:32.579 --> 00:40:35.009
I think it's important
that we get away from

00:40:37.259 --> 00:40:40.439
Craig's waving a, another one of my
creations in front of the camera.

00:40:41.579 --> 00:40:41.609
Okay.

00:40:42.789 --> 00:40:48.819
It's a Clovis reproduction a spearpoint,
one of the older technologies from the,

00:40:48.819 --> 00:40:51.729
the, the, the prehistory of North America.

00:40:52.134 --> 00:40:55.859
And ironically, one of the most
difficult points to reproduce is that

00:40:55.919 --> 00:40:57.454
why is it so difficult out of interest?

00:40:57.634 --> 00:40:59.764
Largely in Wow.

00:40:59.764 --> 00:41:02.129
Because it can you see the fla that goes,
I would've thought that from the bottom.

00:41:02.129 --> 00:41:02.584
A real

00:41:02.584 --> 00:41:03.304
Rupert Isaacson: artifact.

00:41:04.384 --> 00:41:04.534
George Bumann: Yeah.

00:41:04.534 --> 00:41:05.434
That's why I sign them.

00:41:05.434 --> 00:41:09.334
So if they somehow fall outta someone's
pocket, they don't get confused for it.

00:41:09.884 --> 00:41:13.754
I've had some friends pull it over,
pull one over on their, their friends

00:41:14.594 --> 00:41:16.754
with some of my reproductions.

00:41:17.264 --> 00:41:20.714
But the, the, that, that about
a 12,000 year old type of point.

00:41:20.744 --> 00:41:21.404
Correct.

00:41:21.524 --> 00:41:21.644
Yeah.

00:41:21.644 --> 00:41:22.154
Correct.

00:41:22.394 --> 00:41:22.814
Yeah.

00:41:23.654 --> 00:41:27.734
And this is the type of weapon
reused to hunt mammoths and wild

00:41:27.734 --> 00:41:31.064
horses and camels and things
that existed in in North America.

00:41:31.874 --> 00:41:35.984
At that time what makes it tough
is that flake that goes up the base

00:41:35.984 --> 00:41:38.139
from the bottom toward that the tip.

00:41:38.259 --> 00:41:43.819
And to get that to happen on both
sides, you break I've broken hundreds

00:41:43.879 --> 00:41:48.559
to get to just a handful that I have
completed, and I only give them the

00:41:48.559 --> 00:41:51.499
people I really appreciate in person.

00:41:51.859 --> 00:41:52.939
So maybe I was gonna

00:41:52.939 --> 00:41:54.469
Rupert Isaacson: say thanks
for the Clovis point.

00:41:54.979 --> 00:41:55.369
Yeah.

00:41:56.089 --> 00:41:58.879
George Bumann: Well you need to,
we need to meet up in, in person

00:41:58.879 --> 00:42:00.499
and, and perhaps one will appear.

00:42:01.489 --> 00:42:04.649
Craig and I had that on his book
tour as our mutual friend John

00:42:04.649 --> 00:42:06.449
was kind enough to, to hook us up.

00:42:06.449 --> 00:42:08.639
But back to the, the
topic of, of just art.

00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:13.409
I think we need to step away from
the story as it, we've been referring

00:42:13.409 --> 00:42:17.579
to it as a, a spoken word story.

00:42:17.669 --> 00:42:22.209
Craig's doing it beautifully in
the digital realm with his films.

00:42:22.519 --> 00:42:25.039
I'm doing it with my hands.

00:42:25.089 --> 00:42:27.219
I'm, I'm making sculptures.

00:42:27.219 --> 00:42:28.089
I'm actually.

00:42:28.284 --> 00:42:30.444
I think I can show you one of these here.

00:42:30.804 --> 00:42:32.694
This to me is a story.

00:42:33.744 --> 00:42:38.604
This is a miniature basket I made from
a local plant for my wife for Christmas

00:42:38.764 --> 00:42:40.924
and died some of it with black walnut.

00:42:41.674 --> 00:42:43.984
But in this little basket is a story of

00:42:43.984 --> 00:42:44.974
Rupert Isaacson: something
brilliant, George.

00:42:45.724 --> 00:42:47.044
George Bumann: It it's, well, thank you.

00:42:47.614 --> 00:42:49.294
But it, it has its own story.

00:42:49.294 --> 00:42:52.684
There's a, I have the relationship
I have with this patch of plants and

00:42:52.684 --> 00:42:56.914
I curate them and take care of these
plants and weed out the, the dead stems.

00:42:56.914 --> 00:43:02.344
And I've learned so much about
my home through these plants.

00:43:02.464 --> 00:43:07.234
And so it comes with this, this
experience of, of place that when you

00:43:07.234 --> 00:43:11.674
look at a, sadly when they're in museums
and separated from the people and the

00:43:11.674 --> 00:43:16.504
landscapes where they're created, these,
these historic works, you just feel,

00:43:18.844 --> 00:43:26.134
maybe not the details of, but the thrust
of this, this relationship with the

00:43:26.134 --> 00:43:28.924
landscape, with nature, with one another.

00:43:29.914 --> 00:43:33.994
And when I'm working on a
sculpture, I don't use photographs.

00:43:34.439 --> 00:43:41.349
I, I sketch either on paper or I
sketch in clay or wax, and I may

00:43:41.349 --> 00:43:42.789
finish the piece in the field.

00:43:42.919 --> 00:43:48.259
Although a lot of pieces, I have to wait
till that bison is back in that same

00:43:48.259 --> 00:43:50.569
coat pattern next year to finish it.

00:43:51.289 --> 00:43:57.769
But a lot of times those sculptures
might be 5, 6, 8, 10, 12 years in the

00:43:57.769 --> 00:44:04.999
making because I don't want to create
just a representation that visually thi

00:44:05.029 --> 00:44:07.579
makes you think of a wolf or a bear.

00:44:08.329 --> 00:44:13.429
But these are, in essence my
travel logs from years and

00:44:13.429 --> 00:44:15.559
years of really detailed study.

00:44:16.789 --> 00:44:18.049
So I have my own data sheets.

00:44:18.049 --> 00:44:21.289
I had a phishing tackle box and I threw
all the phishing tackle out and made

00:44:21.289 --> 00:44:26.059
my own data sheets to take 50 plus
measurements on every mammal that I

00:44:26.059 --> 00:44:31.429
find deceased and have tape measures and
calipers and dissecting knives and rubber

00:44:31.429 --> 00:44:38.749
gloves and pencils and pens and, and all
of this making death masks, which was

00:44:38.749 --> 00:44:43.579
a, a, a historic thing that artists did
of, of people when someone passed away.

00:44:43.579 --> 00:44:47.089
It was a common thing in the, the 19th
century to make a, a plaster cast, a

00:44:47.089 --> 00:44:51.409
death mask of their face, you know,
making those of animals that, that I'm

00:44:51.409 --> 00:44:56.899
able to, deepens an understanding and
appreciation for them that I see in

00:44:57.139 --> 00:44:59.359
the movement of the sun on a given day.

00:44:59.359 --> 00:45:05.089
I spend the entire day watching elk
just to understand what their body

00:45:06.409 --> 00:45:10.279
looks like and how it functions at
exactly this time of the year with their

00:45:10.279 --> 00:45:12.169
coat pattern exactly the way it is.

00:45:12.199 --> 00:45:17.089
And you don't see that subtle relief
of the ribs and that subtle push of

00:45:17.089 --> 00:45:21.019
the ileal crest of the pelvis until
the sun gets just at a certain angle

00:45:21.019 --> 00:45:22.489
and they turn at a certain angle.

00:45:22.489 --> 00:45:29.419
And so what I create in clay, to
me, is the accumulation of just

00:45:29.839 --> 00:45:33.559
mountains of time paying attention.

00:45:33.559 --> 00:45:37.069
And the sculptures to me are
also an excuse to look deeper.

00:45:37.699 --> 00:45:42.649
You know, Craig's collections and, and
his video and, and his journals function

00:45:42.649 --> 00:45:50.149
similar to mine in that way, where they
help inspire more questions or, right.

00:45:50.149 --> 00:45:53.059
Well, what you know, what if
this was an adult instead of

00:45:53.059 --> 00:45:54.739
a sub-adult or a juvenile?

00:45:55.249 --> 00:45:55.999
Oh my gosh.

00:45:55.999 --> 00:45:56.599
Holy cow.

00:45:56.659 --> 00:45:59.569
And then there's other elements
within there, like she's, she's

00:45:59.569 --> 00:46:02.959
walking a little in funny, oh my gosh.

00:46:02.959 --> 00:46:07.429
She, you can actually see the very subtle
bump on her metatarsal bone where she

00:46:07.429 --> 00:46:09.679
must have broken her leg at one point.

00:46:10.099 --> 00:46:15.289
So the stories in these layers,
like what Craig's would do, it's the

00:46:15.289 --> 00:46:18.019
story helps build the next story.

00:46:19.479 --> 00:46:23.644
The he, the story helps you look
further into the experience.

00:46:24.304 --> 00:46:25.144
Rupert Isaacson: I so agree.

00:46:25.234 --> 00:46:31.144
You know, when we signed off from
our last conversation Craig, you were

00:46:31.144 --> 00:46:35.104
talking about journaling, so of course
I probably have to start journaling.

00:46:35.104 --> 00:46:38.014
So I found myself very quickly after that.

00:46:38.314 --> 00:46:41.044
It was journaling, but story,
it's just gathering story and

00:46:41.284 --> 00:46:44.074
exactly as you just described,
George, you know, this observation.

00:46:44.284 --> 00:46:51.634
So a friend of mine who runs a fox hunt in
Northern Germany, but it's not an actual

00:46:51.634 --> 00:46:54.244
fox hunt because I don't do that anymore.

00:46:54.274 --> 00:46:57.394
We lay a scent and we ride after
that, but it's still, the hounds

00:46:57.394 --> 00:46:59.404
have to work it out and so on.

00:46:59.404 --> 00:47:03.664
Asked me to come up and spend three
days hunting, three, three days in a row

00:47:03.664 --> 00:47:06.664
hunting because they needed the support.

00:47:07.004 --> 00:47:10.934
They were short of manpower
and I said, of course.

00:47:11.114 --> 00:47:13.034
And not my horse though.

00:47:13.124 --> 00:47:19.904
And normally when you go and you trust
your life to the unpredictable country,

00:47:20.444 --> 00:47:25.514
you particularly if it's gonna involve
jumping, it's better to be on a horse

00:47:25.514 --> 00:47:26.864
that you have a deep relationship with.

00:47:27.104 --> 00:47:31.184
Because, and there's a story
there, but it wasn't, I, yeah.

00:47:31.424 --> 00:47:33.794
And I was in an era of
Germany I didn't know.

00:47:34.334 --> 00:47:35.564
And we're in this for us.

00:47:35.564 --> 00:47:39.584
And you are, I've got Craig's
words going in my mind as we're.

00:47:40.754 --> 00:47:44.384
Laying the lines and helping the
hounds find the lines and saying, yeah.

00:47:44.384 --> 00:47:49.394
In this, in this highly human affected
landscape that we're in, it's still,

00:47:49.394 --> 00:47:51.524
we are, we are now the Wolf Pack.

00:47:52.574 --> 00:47:54.464
We're taking the place of
what the Wolf Pack was.

00:47:54.464 --> 00:47:57.344
It's just a modified
human wood pack wolf pack.

00:47:57.344 --> 00:48:03.824
And now that particular form of it that
we are doing is about 300 years old.

00:48:03.824 --> 00:48:08.174
But, and we're, I'm, I'm on this
horse that's designed to run really

00:48:08.174 --> 00:48:11.204
fast and jump these fences, which
was evolved at exactly the same

00:48:11.204 --> 00:48:13.424
time 300 years ago for this purpose.

00:48:13.634 --> 00:48:19.484
Which was taking stock from the original
step herders of Central Asia, what we

00:48:19.484 --> 00:48:22.874
call the turman horse, which is now
the ancestor of the thoroughbred horse

00:48:22.874 --> 00:48:24.614
and mixing it with the Arabian horse.

00:48:24.614 --> 00:48:28.364
I'm on an Anglo Arab, as they
call it, very hot horse to ride.

00:48:28.754 --> 00:48:33.594
And this has now come up to Northern
Germany, but actually they would've come

00:48:33.594 --> 00:48:38.329
in here long before because the Goths
and the Lombards and the ards and the

00:48:38.334 --> 00:48:42.474
vandals and Thewas and the alimony and
all these tribes that would've been pushed

00:48:42.564 --> 00:48:47.304
into this part of Germany from the east
by the Huns because of climate change,

00:48:47.334 --> 00:48:51.384
you know, 2000 years ago, established
these cultures of the horse here.

00:48:51.744 --> 00:48:54.804
And that we are still actually kind of
the indigenous people that were always

00:48:54.804 --> 00:48:56.724
here practicing the same culture.

00:48:56.724 --> 00:49:01.764
And as I'm thinking this,
we, the hounds bring us past

00:49:01.764 --> 00:49:03.054
these, this, these megaliths.

00:49:03.849 --> 00:49:08.319
And these old burial mounds, these
old stone burial mounds, dolmans, you

00:49:08.319 --> 00:49:13.809
know, with the, with the capstone on
top from five, six, 7,000 years ago, I

00:49:13.809 --> 00:49:15.189
didn't even know were in this forest.

00:49:15.879 --> 00:49:18.069
And I had had an experience
like that before.

00:49:18.759 --> 00:49:21.069
In Cornwall, once hunting in the mist.

00:49:21.069 --> 00:49:22.089
In the mist came up.

00:49:22.089 --> 00:49:25.869
And I found out I was in the middle of a
stone circle on my horse and but alone.

00:49:26.499 --> 00:49:28.959
And you feel that touch
of the divine comes.

00:49:28.959 --> 00:49:33.189
It's like the, the old Celtic called
ano, you know, with you in that moment.

00:49:33.189 --> 00:49:35.979
And you must give respect and ride on.

00:49:37.659 --> 00:49:41.169
And so I get the sense of the story
of the horse that I'm on is being

00:49:41.169 --> 00:49:43.719
brought in here by these tribes.

00:49:43.719 --> 00:49:47.739
And then these were the same tribes
that would've had a common ancestor with

00:49:47.739 --> 00:49:51.669
these guys thousands of years before
even that building, these grave mans.

00:49:51.669 --> 00:49:52.569
And then, what are we?

00:49:52.569 --> 00:49:53.709
But the human wolf pack.

00:49:53.739 --> 00:49:56.709
Okay, but now that the, the
hounds which create the wolf

00:49:56.709 --> 00:49:58.059
pack, where are the wolves?

00:49:58.689 --> 00:50:02.259
And that is, ah, but the wolves are
coming back in all these parts of

00:50:02.259 --> 00:50:05.559
Germany for the first time in 150
years, the wolves are coming back.

00:50:06.519 --> 00:50:15.669
And not, in fact, we had been warned going
out that we could run into wolf and were

00:50:15.669 --> 00:50:16.989
we gonna, would our hos be all right?

00:50:16.989 --> 00:50:17.739
Were they gonna be all right?

00:50:17.739 --> 00:50:22.899
Blah, blah, blah, blah bum in this
area that 150 years, years ago wiped

00:50:22.899 --> 00:50:27.459
them out despite the fact that there
was this deep, connection with nature.

00:50:27.999 --> 00:50:30.399
This is the area where all the
grims fairytales come from.

00:50:30.669 --> 00:50:34.179
So little red riding with forest
is one hour north of air Wolves.

00:50:34.179 --> 00:50:36.219
Don't get a very good
rap in that one, do they?

00:50:36.549 --> 00:50:38.079
SEL and Gretel for it's an hour.

00:50:38.079 --> 00:50:40.239
The other way, the sleeping
beauty castle is just a couple of

00:50:40.239 --> 00:50:41.529
hours from me, blah, blah, blah.

00:50:42.369 --> 00:50:46.119
And here we are in amongst all this,
in, in all this story, living this

00:50:46.119 --> 00:50:52.089
story, still practicing the story
and the older story is coming back.

00:50:52.359 --> 00:50:53.229
First these mega lists.

00:50:53.229 --> 00:50:59.319
And then the wolf itself, not five
days ago in the same village that

00:50:59.319 --> 00:51:03.069
I'm sitting in here, which is much,
much closer to the city where, pretty

00:51:03.069 --> 00:51:04.809
close to downtown Frankfurt here.

00:51:05.889 --> 00:51:12.279
Someone, my, my friend Philip, sends me
a picture of a big male wolf just walking

00:51:12.279 --> 00:51:16.389
on the hills, just on the other side from
this window that I'm pointing at here.

00:51:17.409 --> 00:51:23.859
And this thing of full circle and con that
is that not conflict resolution, right?

00:51:24.369 --> 00:51:31.929
And to bring a story into oneself and
to sort of live it and ride it if you

00:51:31.929 --> 00:51:35.649
like, and experience it as a living story
and realize this is what's going on.

00:51:35.649 --> 00:51:39.729
And then think, oh my gosh, even that
comes from conflict and realize, because

00:51:39.789 --> 00:51:40.959
why are all these wol here anyway?

00:51:40.989 --> 00:51:44.769
'cause of Chernobyl, because of the,
the nuclear disaster in Chernobyl

00:51:44.799 --> 00:51:48.309
in 1986 where they had to mark
off a huge area of central Europe

00:51:48.309 --> 00:51:49.689
and say, no one can go in there.

00:51:49.989 --> 00:51:50.709
So what happened?

00:51:51.609 --> 00:51:53.079
Nature just reestablished itself.

00:51:53.169 --> 00:51:57.759
And apparently there are these wolves
that are showing up here, have a gene

00:51:58.059 --> 00:52:04.299
that's been switched on, which is anti
radiation, which is why they thrived.

00:52:04.299 --> 00:52:08.199
And now they, they, they've overpopulated
that Chano area and they've gone out and

00:52:08.199 --> 00:52:09.519
that's why they've now come to Germany.

00:52:09.549 --> 00:52:12.789
And that's why they're now showing up
in the Netherlands and Belgium where

00:52:12.789 --> 00:52:14.229
they, you know, have been gone forever.

00:52:14.289 --> 00:52:18.009
Wiped out in the little red riding
hood time, so on and so on and so on.

00:52:18.009 --> 00:52:20.229
And conflict and conflict resolution.

00:52:21.079 --> 00:52:26.179
As you know, if you followed any of
my work, I'm an autism dad and we have

00:52:26.179 --> 00:52:32.739
a whole career before this podcast in
helping people with neurodivergence,

00:52:33.419 --> 00:52:35.639
either who are professionals in the field.

00:52:35.719 --> 00:52:36.559
Are you a therapist?

00:52:36.979 --> 00:52:38.249
Are you a caregiver?

00:52:38.639 --> 00:52:39.649
Are you a parent?

00:52:40.084 --> 00:52:42.114
Or are you somebody with neurodivergence?

00:52:43.554 --> 00:52:48.494
When my son, Rowan, was
diagnosed with autism in 2004,

00:52:48.534 --> 00:52:50.164
I really didn't know what to do.

00:52:50.364 --> 00:52:55.634
So I reached out for mentorship, and
I found it through an amazing adult

00:52:55.674 --> 00:52:58.474
autistic woman who's very famous, Dr.

00:52:58.624 --> 00:52:59.514
Temple Grandin.

00:52:59.714 --> 00:53:01.354
And she told me what to do.

00:53:01.404 --> 00:53:05.644
And it's been working so
amazingly for the last 20 years.

00:53:05.994 --> 00:53:10.444
That not only is my son basically
independent, but we've helped

00:53:10.704 --> 00:53:14.454
countless, countless thousands
of others reach the same goal.

00:53:14.794 --> 00:53:18.694
Working in schools, working at
home, working in therapy settings.

00:53:19.724 --> 00:53:24.164
If you would like to learn this
cutting edge, neuroscience backed

00:53:24.384 --> 00:53:26.424
approach, it's called Movement Method.

00:53:27.084 --> 00:53:30.442
You can learn it online, you
can learn it very, very simply.

00:53:30.442 --> 00:53:32.704
It's almost laughably simple.

00:53:33.644 --> 00:53:36.344
The important thing is to begin.

00:53:37.274 --> 00:53:40.424
Let yourself be mentored as I was by Dr.

00:53:40.424 --> 00:53:43.714
Grandin and see what results can follow.

00:53:44.744 --> 00:53:47.674
Go to this website, newtrailslearning.

00:53:49.944 --> 00:53:52.449
com Sign up as a gold member.

00:53:52.889 --> 00:53:55.779
Take the online movement method course.

00:53:56.269 --> 00:53:57.639
It's in 40 countries.

00:53:58.249 --> 00:54:00.309
Let us know how it goes for you.

00:54:00.509 --> 00:54:01.279
We really want to know.

00:54:01.289 --> 00:54:05.789
We really want to help people like
me, people like you, out there

00:54:06.139 --> 00:54:09.419
live their best life, to live
free, ride free, see what happens.

00:54:10.459 --> 00:54:18.199
Do you feel guys, that what we're
having to learn how to do again in our

00:54:18.199 --> 00:54:26.689
conflict culture is to learn how to
track, learn how to hunt nature itself?

00:54:26.839 --> 00:54:27.199
Again,

00:54:32.209 --> 00:54:33.019
George Bumann: that one's you, Craig,

00:54:35.449 --> 00:54:36.229
that's a tough one.

00:54:37.099 --> 00:54:37.819
I just wanna point out

00:54:37.819 --> 00:54:39.499
Rupert Isaacson: to a long time, so
we had any animal sounds, George.

00:54:39.559 --> 00:54:39.679
Yeah.

00:54:41.629 --> 00:54:43.219
I am missing their sounds.

00:54:43.219 --> 00:54:43.699
I, yeah.

00:54:49.044 --> 00:54:52.979
George Bumann: And what is
that common Raven telling us

00:54:52.979 --> 00:54:55.859
what my turf, this is my home.

00:54:56.309 --> 00:54:58.799
Explain yourself because
you weren't invited.

00:55:00.089 --> 00:55:00.719
Explain yourself,

00:55:00.719 --> 00:55:01.109
Rupert Isaacson: Craig.

00:55:01.559 --> 00:55:04.199
Are we having to, are we, are
we indeed having to learn how to

00:55:04.199 --> 00:55:06.119
track nature again as a species?

00:55:08.624 --> 00:55:13.994
Craig Foster: I think we have
we've definitely lost track.

00:55:14.684 --> 00:55:21.524
I mean, to be this idea of being in
conflict with the great mother mm-hmm.

00:55:21.824 --> 00:55:25.994
Which we are in now, is a, is
an absurd, absurd place to be.

00:55:25.994 --> 00:55:32.204
I mean, why would you you know, wage
conflict against the very thing that's

00:55:32.204 --> 00:55:36.854
nurtured you from the beginning of
your species and keeps nurturing you

00:55:36.914 --> 00:55:39.764
despite everything is thrown into it.

00:55:39.764 --> 00:55:43.604
It, it is, it unfortunately
is a definition of insanity.

00:55:44.124 --> 00:55:49.284
But it's understandable given all the
pressures, you know, that the, this

00:55:49.434 --> 00:55:54.414
shifting baselines and each new generation
gets forced into these strange places and

00:55:54.414 --> 00:56:02.514
these linoleum covered environments where
there's no hint of ancestral connection.

00:56:03.154 --> 00:56:09.654
You know, the knowledge of the elders
you know, no longer there to guide us.

00:56:09.764 --> 00:56:15.494
It, I think it's absolutely critical
that we, we rarely start to.

00:56:16.634 --> 00:56:24.014
Understand where we are sitting and
how, just how fragile our position is.

00:56:24.494 --> 00:56:27.284
Because this great mother
that's, that's, that's there.

00:56:27.284 --> 00:56:33.404
This, this biological intelligence,
this biodiversity is, is very strong.

00:56:33.954 --> 00:56:38.854
We can push her down and she will make
you know, life impossible for us to live.

00:56:38.854 --> 00:56:42.814
And then she'll bounce back in
a, in 10 million different ways.

00:56:42.874 --> 00:56:43.979
Like she's done the before.

00:56:43.979 --> 00:56:44.099
Just

00:56:44.099 --> 00:56:44.260
like the wolf.

00:56:44.265 --> 00:56:44.374
Yeah,

00:56:44.584 --> 00:56:45.604
Craig Foster: yeah, exactly.

00:56:45.964 --> 00:56:47.974
It's just like the, the
wolf from Chernobyl.

00:56:48.574 --> 00:56:55.284
But I think, you know, it's easy to
see ourselves as a dark species, but

00:56:55.284 --> 00:56:59.934
we are actually so beautiful in so
many ways, and we understand at such

00:57:00.234 --> 00:57:05.484
capacity for this, you know, loving
the mother at such a deep level.

00:57:05.514 --> 00:57:09.954
You know what George is talking about
this, the, the, just watching this elk

00:57:09.954 --> 00:57:14.424
and understanding them over the years,
that's a form of deep love and respect.

00:57:14.754 --> 00:57:14.784
Mm.

00:57:14.904 --> 00:57:15.234
And in

00:57:15.234 --> 00:57:18.804
Craig Foster: his art and this incredible,
like clover's point when he gave it to me,

00:57:18.804 --> 00:57:21.174
I was just, you know, deeply emotional.

00:57:21.204 --> 00:57:25.254
'cause you can feel if, you know,
napping and stone tool making

00:57:25.254 --> 00:57:31.334
the tremendous energy, power and
practice it takes to do this.

00:57:31.334 --> 00:57:34.004
I think it took him 30 years
to master these points.

00:57:34.064 --> 00:57:34.994
Am I right, George?

00:57:35.784 --> 00:57:36.054
Yeah.

00:57:36.684 --> 00:57:40.944
The, the, the amount of the
capacity for the love we have is

00:57:40.944 --> 00:57:43.104
just tremendous in all humans.

00:57:43.674 --> 00:57:47.124
So we actually, I think, are
a very beautiful species.

00:57:47.334 --> 00:57:47.364
Mm.

00:57:47.944 --> 00:57:51.634
Craig Foster: And it's worth keeping
us alive, but we just have lost track

00:57:51.634 --> 00:57:57.304
completely of you know, our, our
relationship with the bigger forces that

00:57:57.304 --> 00:57:59.864
actually are in charge of our future.

00:58:03.434 --> 00:58:06.134
George Bumann: And a lot of it's
distraction, I think certainly the

00:58:06.134 --> 00:58:12.104
conflict and is in the background
working on us, but the distraction that

00:58:12.104 --> 00:58:14.864
we referenced earlier is, is enormous.

00:58:15.794 --> 00:58:15.824
Mm.

00:58:15.824 --> 00:58:20.384
You know, so often I'll take students
or class out into Yellowstone and you

00:58:20.384 --> 00:58:26.804
know, the intention is to understand,
you know, bird language for instance.

00:58:27.104 --> 00:58:28.334
And we go out and we just sit.

00:58:28.904 --> 00:58:32.024
And the only rules are no
watches, no phones, no nothing.

00:58:32.264 --> 00:58:33.554
I'll keep track of the time.

00:58:33.614 --> 00:58:37.124
You just sit and watch and listen
and to some people, so they're

00:58:37.124 --> 00:58:39.464
like, we don't have to do anything.

00:58:40.994 --> 00:58:45.794
So initially that, that and alone for a
lot of people is, is a, is a huge relief.

00:58:45.794 --> 00:58:47.294
We're we're human doings.

00:58:47.294 --> 00:58:48.404
We're not human being beings.

00:58:48.404 --> 00:58:48.699
Well that can also be

00:58:48.699 --> 00:58:49.619
Rupert Isaacson: very scary, can't it?

00:58:50.359 --> 00:58:50.659
George Bumann: It can.

00:58:50.679 --> 00:58:51.764
So you kind of curated

00:58:51.764 --> 00:58:52.994
Rupert Isaacson: and your
mind I'm not doing something.

00:58:53.114 --> 00:58:54.219
George Bumann: Yeah, exactly.

00:58:54.529 --> 00:58:55.019
Exactly.

00:58:55.484 --> 00:59:00.134
And, and that's, I struggle
with that very much.

00:59:00.164 --> 00:59:00.254
Yeah.

00:59:00.584 --> 00:59:02.954
You know, what, what
is this thing about me?

00:59:03.359 --> 00:59:06.959
Working on, on something or just, just
reading a book for crying out loud.

00:59:07.054 --> 00:59:07.934
I, I should not, is

00:59:07.934 --> 00:59:10.109
Rupert Isaacson: that not because,
is that not because we actually ought

00:59:10.109 --> 00:59:11.849
to be kind of tracking all the time?

00:59:12.149 --> 00:59:15.719
Do you, do you remember which of
the guys was it in the Great dance

00:59:15.719 --> 00:59:21.109
Craig, who said of the three son
hunters that you are always tracking?

00:59:21.799 --> 00:59:22.069
Craig Foster: Yeah.

00:59:22.309 --> 00:59:23.839
Rupert Isaacson: You are
never not tracking, right?

00:59:23.989 --> 00:59:24.349
No,

00:59:24.409 --> 00:59:24.919
Craig Foster: not, yeah.

00:59:25.249 --> 00:59:29.359
Rupert Isaacson: And is our, is our desire
for distraction, simply our desire to be

00:59:29.359 --> 00:59:32.359
tracking when we're cut off from that?

00:59:32.359 --> 00:59:33.019
Mm-hmm.

00:59:33.769 --> 00:59:33.949
Craig Foster: Yeah.

00:59:33.979 --> 00:59:38.064
'cause it's, it naturally
just animates you and to you.

00:59:38.149 --> 00:59:41.329
But now you take that away,
the mind is searching.

00:59:41.329 --> 00:59:42.619
That's an interesting idea,

00:59:42.979 --> 00:59:44.059
Rupert Isaacson: but I
guess you're right, George.

00:59:44.059 --> 00:59:49.249
You have to have a certain quietude to
create the space where the white, we

00:59:49.249 --> 00:59:50.869
have to give ourselves that greatest

00:59:50.869 --> 00:59:51.379
George Bumann: gift.

00:59:51.859 --> 00:59:54.589
That greatest gift is the time and space.

00:59:55.189 --> 01:00:00.079
And sometimes you have to legislate it
for yourself, you know, put it on the

01:00:00.079 --> 01:00:01.939
calendar like a doctor's appointment.

01:00:03.739 --> 01:00:08.209
If you look at other species who
are contained and caged, they start

01:00:08.209 --> 01:00:13.969
these repetitive behaviors and
self damage, inflicting behaviors.

01:00:16.669 --> 01:00:19.879
We, we in many ways
resemble that caged animal.

01:00:19.879 --> 01:00:25.069
We are not exerting ourselves in the
way that our nervous system needs.

01:00:25.399 --> 01:00:30.049
There's been, I'm, I'm in the process
of, of correcting my own eyesight,

01:00:30.169 --> 01:00:32.629
naturally wor glasses since I was 12.

01:00:32.989 --> 01:00:36.139
And one thing I didn't write about in
the book with the magpie experience

01:00:36.139 --> 01:00:40.699
that we talked about in the last
podcast episode was I had this moment

01:00:42.079 --> 01:00:49.639
of that altered state, but I also, and I
didn't write about this, had absolutely

01:00:49.639 --> 01:00:52.939
perfect vision for just a few seconds.

01:00:55.729 --> 01:00:59.899
And what I've found is through this
process and this, this was a technique

01:00:59.899 --> 01:01:05.299
developed and studied and figured
out in New York in the 19 teens,

01:01:05.299 --> 01:01:09.169
late 1918 hundreds and early 19
hundreds, it was the end of glasses.

01:01:10.759 --> 01:01:14.959
The eyes are an extension of
the brain's nervous tissue.

01:01:15.889 --> 01:01:23.869
And when the brain is out of sorts, the
eyesight is out of sorts, quite literally.

01:01:24.139 --> 01:01:29.509
You know, when I'm out in nature
and I feel that relaxation with

01:01:29.509 --> 01:01:34.939
practice in this technique known as
the Bates method I get a lot more and

01:01:34.939 --> 01:01:40.159
longer periods of clear vision now,
and as one keeps doing this, you.

01:01:41.149 --> 01:01:42.649
You don't need your glasses anymore.

01:01:42.799 --> 01:01:46.579
Whether that's nearsighted,
farsighted, I have astigmatisms.

01:01:47.389 --> 01:01:49.339
I can see the top of
that mountain right now.

01:01:49.669 --> 01:01:51.949
I can see individual trees

01:01:54.139 --> 01:01:57.199
and they've done studies on
native Alaskans at the time.

01:01:57.199 --> 01:02:02.959
They started educating those, those
native children in westernized schools and

01:02:02.959 --> 01:02:05.869
their eyesight went down precipitously.

01:02:06.409 --> 01:02:10.429
And yet in the native community
where the elders were taught in the

01:02:10.429 --> 01:02:13.399
old ways and lived in the old ways,
they had perfect vision into their

01:02:13.399 --> 01:02:14.959
seventies, eighties, and beyond.

01:02:16.399 --> 01:02:17.359
What is the Bates method?

01:02:18.649 --> 01:02:24.709
It's on the whole, it's a technique
that teaches you to relax.

01:02:26.149 --> 01:02:31.219
It is the think of a water balloon is
what basically what the eyeball is in any

01:02:31.249 --> 01:02:36.109
slight influence on that changes the shape
and hence the clarity that you perceive.

01:02:36.259 --> 01:02:39.589
And we, we have these clench fists.

01:02:40.129 --> 01:02:42.379
Yeah, some people keep them in their back.

01:02:42.379 --> 01:02:45.079
Some people keep them in
their legs, their jaw muscles.

01:02:45.589 --> 01:02:49.339
And those of us who have need
vision correction often keep them

01:02:49.339 --> 01:02:50.659
in these muscles we don't even know.

01:02:50.659 --> 01:02:54.499
We have in the orbits of our eyes
that are squeezing the eyeballs

01:02:54.499 --> 01:02:57.049
in ways that distort our vision.

01:02:57.679 --> 01:03:04.159
And as we learn to let those relax, the
eye takes its natural and healthy state

01:03:04.729 --> 01:03:09.649
and we just see clearly, it then affects
our mental space, our mood, our, you know.

01:03:11.089 --> 01:03:14.749
I've been going without glasses for a
while, and a lot of that early state,

01:03:15.859 --> 01:03:17.899
I felt isolated from my community.

01:03:17.899 --> 01:03:21.139
I wouldn't recognize people in the grocery
store and they'd have to wave, you know?

01:03:22.039 --> 01:03:25.009
And I think a lot of things that
go through our minds, if they,

01:03:25.009 --> 01:03:30.919
even if they don't distort our, our
actual eyesight, they isolate us.

01:03:31.909 --> 01:03:35.779
These lessons of nature are to expand us.

01:03:36.464 --> 01:03:41.029
And through the expansions, I
personally feel like it's, those are

01:03:41.029 --> 01:03:42.919
the spaces where I'm my best self.

01:03:45.619 --> 01:03:51.774
I'm healthier, I'm more creative,
more relaxed, you know, and we,

01:03:52.374 --> 01:03:55.689
Rupert Isaacson: I was, I was doing a
podcast the other day with a neuro, a

01:03:55.689 --> 01:04:00.619
neuroscientist called Cheryl Pratt and
University of Washington, and she made the

01:04:00.619 --> 01:04:09.049
point of that when we are forced to have
focused attention for an unnatural period

01:04:09.049 --> 01:04:12.919
of time, it's so exhausting for the brain.

01:04:14.129 --> 01:04:15.719
It's, her book is the neuroscience of You.

01:04:15.719 --> 01:04:16.409
It's really good.

01:04:16.989 --> 01:04:19.029
And they look at not how all the
brains are the same, but how each

01:04:19.029 --> 01:04:20.739
brain is different in her lab.

01:04:21.169 --> 01:04:23.149
But that one of the generalities is that.

01:04:24.259 --> 01:04:27.919
Forced attention school,
but also living in a city.

01:04:27.919 --> 01:04:31.819
She said, because if you're in a
non-natural environment, you're actually

01:04:31.819 --> 01:04:41.159
honing in constantly on these framed
points of attention because there's

01:04:41.159 --> 01:04:47.459
nowhere to generally rest your vision
that in nature, because the lines are

01:04:47.459 --> 01:04:53.039
soft, you can, you go from sharp, focused
attention and then immediately relax.

01:04:53.909 --> 01:05:00.119
She was making the point that A DHD
is largely brought on by the mental

01:05:00.119 --> 01:05:08.339
exhaustion of being forced to have
too much focused attention and the

01:05:08.339 --> 01:05:14.939
fatigue that the brain goes through,
rather than the tracking skill, which

01:05:14.939 --> 01:05:20.249
of course is what it is, of being able
to narrow in zip, but then softly focus

01:05:20.249 --> 01:05:22.049
out again and z and focus out again.

01:05:22.049 --> 01:05:24.629
It's always balanced and actually
you probably spend most of your

01:05:24.629 --> 01:05:28.709
time being able to rest the brain
and as you say, rest the eyes.

01:05:28.709 --> 01:05:29.489
Mm-hmm.

01:05:29.869 --> 01:05:34.639
Craig Foster: That's, that's so
interesting because this, that's what

01:05:34.639 --> 01:05:39.199
I've noticed and, and I know George has
noticed this too, in a, in a big way,

01:05:39.199 --> 01:05:45.509
that when you are in these places these
near pristine places or places of, of.

01:05:46.664 --> 01:05:48.044
What I call the beating heart.

01:05:48.044 --> 01:05:50.294
When the biodiversity's in all in place

01:05:50.534 --> 01:05:50.624
mm-hmm.

01:05:50.954 --> 01:05:53.684
Craig Foster: You just
feel totally different.

01:05:54.614 --> 01:05:59.384
It is just, and you feel sad that,
you know, so many people will

01:05:59.384 --> 01:06:00.914
not be able to experience this.

01:06:00.974 --> 01:06:04.514
You feel, so obviously we
are very privileged, but

01:06:04.514 --> 01:06:07.034
it's, it's just so different.

01:06:07.034 --> 01:06:11.054
The whole physicality, the
whole mental space is different.

01:06:11.144 --> 01:06:13.364
Utterly is a different person there.

01:06:13.814 --> 01:06:18.014
And what it does is it starts
to break down the self and you

01:06:18.014 --> 01:06:20.534
start to feel part of everything.

01:06:20.534 --> 01:06:26.954
And you don't feel that that, that
that sharp, nasty taste of the ego

01:06:27.194 --> 01:06:30.964
in your mouth it, it naturally breaks
that down and softens everything.

01:06:30.964 --> 01:06:36.604
And I love the way the, your
neuroscientist friend has, has articulated

01:06:36.604 --> 01:06:39.214
that because it's exactly the case.

01:06:39.694 --> 01:06:44.674
It, it, it fundamentally changes
one, and it's not surprising.

01:06:44.704 --> 01:06:46.174
I mean Sure.

01:06:46.174 --> 01:06:47.944
We've had you talk about, you know.

01:06:48.289 --> 01:06:52.679
The last 10,000 years of this
sort of much harsher ancestry

01:06:52.679 --> 01:06:54.479
post agricultural revolution.

01:06:54.479 --> 01:06:58.679
But one doesn't think about the
3 million years of fully wild

01:06:58.679 --> 01:07:00.059
living that comes before that.

01:07:00.059 --> 01:07:01.619
That's a much deeper memory.

01:07:01.889 --> 01:07:03.689
That's a much deeper in our psyche.

01:07:03.689 --> 01:07:05.579
That's what we, who we really are.

01:07:06.059 --> 01:07:09.329
Forget about this last few
seconds of 10,000 years.

01:07:09.989 --> 01:07:12.029
That's really what we are about.

01:07:12.479 --> 01:07:19.259
And that's where I think we
desperately need to draw our, our, our

01:07:19.259 --> 01:07:21.659
inspiration from as we move forward.

01:07:23.849 --> 01:07:26.579
Rupert Isaacson: Conflict resolution
again, because I, I guess if it's, if

01:07:26.579 --> 01:07:31.289
it's healing conflicts within oneself,
whether it's the conflict of the self,

01:07:31.799 --> 01:07:35.099
that horrible little voice always
telling you your shit, there you go.

01:07:35.879 --> 01:07:43.529
Or the exhausted muscles around the
eyes squeezing the eyeballs because

01:07:43.529 --> 01:07:49.079
they don't get a chance to relax even in
somebody who's grown up like George has.

01:07:49.169 --> 01:07:53.819
You know, because long before George
got to Yellowstone National Park, he was

01:07:54.659 --> 01:07:56.489
exploring the forests of New England.

01:07:56.609 --> 01:08:01.949
You know, it's, it's not like George
wasn't in natural environments, you

01:08:01.949 --> 01:08:09.719
know, and yet even those of us who can
access them we still suffer because so

01:08:09.719 --> 01:08:12.149
much of our time is, has to be spent.

01:08:12.569 --> 01:08:13.799
Engaging economically.

01:08:14.279 --> 01:08:19.319
And isn't it interesting that, as
you say, Craig, the 3 million years,

01:08:20.009 --> 01:08:23.399
and of course there are still people
on the planet who are living in that

01:08:23.519 --> 01:08:25.349
3 million year old authentic way.

01:08:25.739 --> 01:08:25.829
Yeah.

01:08:25.949 --> 01:08:28.469
It's easy to forget that, you know,
we'll be often reading books, you

01:08:28.469 --> 01:08:29.939
know, our hunter gatherer ancestors.

01:08:29.939 --> 01:08:31.709
It's like they're still there.

01:08:32.609 --> 01:08:32.789
Craig Foster: Yeah.

01:08:32.789 --> 01:08:35.579
We, we un contacted wild people living.

01:08:35.579 --> 01:08:36.454
It's, it's incredible.

01:08:36.454 --> 01:08:36.779
They're still there.

01:08:37.169 --> 01:08:37.559
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:08:37.659 --> 01:08:38.649
It didn't go anywhere.

01:08:38.679 --> 01:08:40.329
We just stopped listening.

01:08:40.329 --> 01:08:41.529
But the,

01:08:44.469 --> 01:08:47.859
if they are conf, if the whole
point of that culture is conflict

01:08:47.859 --> 01:08:54.069
resolution, because when you're not top
predator, your only hope is strategy.

01:08:54.459 --> 01:08:57.639
Together, together,
together, love communication.

01:08:58.059 --> 01:09:02.559
If you fragment, if conflict gets
beyond a certain point, everyone's

01:09:02.559 --> 01:09:03.369
gonna get eaten by the ness.

01:09:04.479 --> 01:09:07.149
Which is of course what we're
facing on a meta level as a

01:09:07.149 --> 01:09:09.069
species now with our conflicts.

01:09:09.549 --> 01:09:12.999
And we can all become extinct and
become eaten by the hyena, as you

01:09:12.999 --> 01:09:14.859
say, different types of hyena.

01:09:15.969 --> 01:09:20.919
So much of it still comes down to, to
this idea of conflict resolution and

01:09:20.919 --> 01:09:25.299
what, what you were saying earlier
that love, if we're a species of love,

01:09:26.079 --> 01:09:31.059
we talk about we're a storytelling
species, but what is story beloved?

01:09:31.059 --> 01:09:36.639
I remember once I was on on Table
Mountain and this is when I was 25 and,

01:09:36.689 --> 01:09:44.139
so obviously back in the Plato scene
and I, I came down with a fever and I

01:09:44.139 --> 01:09:48.009
went up Tableman with my cousin Simon,
who's actually still a psychiatrist in

01:09:48.129 --> 01:09:52.629
Cape Town area and his flatmate Lni,
who's a now psychiatrist in London.

01:09:53.109 --> 01:09:56.229
And it was on a few times in my life
I've ever actually become delirious.

01:09:56.679 --> 01:09:59.199
And then I was like, shit, how
am I gonna get down, right?

01:09:59.199 --> 01:10:00.699
Because, you know, table mountain.

01:10:01.209 --> 01:10:05.859
Okay, so I've gotta think now and
I've got to try to be, and I'm in an

01:10:05.859 --> 01:10:09.609
altar state of consciousness before
I kind of knew what that word meant.

01:10:11.379 --> 01:10:15.009
And as I'm coming down the mountain in
this altar set of consciousness, this

01:10:15.009 --> 01:10:19.869
thought comes to me where I remembered
in the chapel at school, there was

01:10:19.869 --> 01:10:22.209
this, why did it come into my mind?

01:10:22.209 --> 01:10:25.029
Then in the chapel in school,
there was a inscription that one

01:10:25.029 --> 01:10:28.539
often sees on the wall of a chapel,
God is love and love is God.

01:10:30.279 --> 01:10:33.489
And I remember as a kid
thinking, yeah, that's true.

01:10:33.879 --> 01:10:35.319
You know, just in the way
that, yeah, that's true.

01:10:35.409 --> 01:10:35.829
That's true.

01:10:36.669 --> 01:10:37.119
Dunno why.

01:10:37.119 --> 01:10:38.139
I know that's true, but it's true.

01:10:40.239 --> 01:10:43.509
This same thought comes to me as
I'm stumbling now down the mountain.

01:10:44.439 --> 01:10:48.279
And as you know, that's a very
powerful place, dramatically.

01:10:48.729 --> 01:10:52.419
Table mountain, the two tip
of the continent tip of where

01:10:52.419 --> 01:10:54.789
humanity becomes two oceans Meat.

01:10:55.629 --> 01:10:55.839
Yeah.

01:10:55.869 --> 01:10:56.169
Whatever.

01:10:58.569 --> 01:11:00.879
And I realize, oh, well if God
is love and love is God, then

01:11:00.879 --> 01:11:02.949
everything is God, which means that.

01:11:04.299 --> 01:11:05.589
The stones under me.

01:11:05.619 --> 01:11:10.149
All matter must be God, which means the
shirt I'm wearing, which is created from

01:11:10.149 --> 01:11:13.629
cotton, which is a plan, must be love.

01:11:14.229 --> 01:11:20.409
And the paint job on the car down there
that we're struggling towards, which is

01:11:20.409 --> 01:11:27.039
coming from chemicals that come from rocks
that are matter created must be love.

01:11:27.549 --> 01:11:32.289
And the car door that I'm opening
now with the metal that it's made of

01:11:33.639 --> 01:11:39.249
and the fossil fuel that maybe it's
not so good, but nonetheless is,

01:11:39.249 --> 01:11:41.049
is is a carbon, is is a fossilized.

01:11:41.049 --> 01:11:42.399
Forest is love.

01:11:43.539 --> 01:11:45.129
Even the gas power in this car is love.

01:11:45.249 --> 01:11:47.169
And I thought, well what
about, what about hate then?

01:11:47.169 --> 01:11:48.249
What about torture?

01:11:48.249 --> 01:11:49.209
What about atrocity?

01:11:49.209 --> 01:11:50.409
What about war?

01:11:50.409 --> 01:11:51.459
Where's that as?

01:11:51.489 --> 01:11:56.049
And then this thought came, ah,
that's twisted forms of love

01:11:56.679 --> 01:12:02.889
removed from the source, expressing
insane pain, but it's still love.

01:12:04.029 --> 01:12:07.839
And with that, I passed
out, but I never forgot it.

01:12:10.029 --> 01:12:15.399
Did I need to be on a place like Table
Mountain to have that revelation?

01:12:16.839 --> 01:12:26.739
Talk to me guys about how you've
come to your view of nature and love.

01:12:29.994 --> 01:12:34.674
Have you, are there some moments of
epiphany that stand out for you that way?

01:12:36.744 --> 01:12:39.714
Kickoff, whoever can bring one to mind.

01:12:40.914 --> 01:12:41.454
Quickest.

01:12:45.834 --> 01:12:47.394
George Bumann: I talked last, Craig,

01:12:47.784 --> 01:12:47.904
Craig Foster: your,

01:12:50.569 --> 01:12:51.849
I was looking at you, George.

01:12:53.874 --> 01:12:55.344
We make animal sounds
and then we'll forget.

01:12:55.669 --> 01:12:56.369
Oh, that's so cool.

01:12:56.419 --> 01:12:57.009
There you go.

01:12:58.229 --> 01:12:59.009
George Bumann: You have to embarra.

01:13:00.829 --> 01:13:01.369
What's that?

01:13:01.974 --> 01:13:02.634
That's an elk.

01:13:02.634 --> 01:13:03.329
Is it?

01:13:03.789 --> 01:13:05.004
Is red stag?

01:13:05.094 --> 01:13:05.484
Yeah.

01:13:06.384 --> 01:13:07.554
Relative red stag.

01:13:07.554 --> 01:13:09.049
Relative of, is it bugling

01:13:09.629 --> 01:13:10.854
Rupert Isaacson: or is
it just No, that's a cow.

01:13:10.854 --> 01:13:12.534
That's a female's vocalization.

01:13:12.594 --> 01:13:12.804
George Bumann: That's a, yeah.

01:13:12.804 --> 01:13:13.674
Calling her calf.

01:13:14.004 --> 01:13:14.274
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:13:16.074 --> 01:13:17.934
Can you just give us the
bugling of the male quickly?

01:13:18.834 --> 01:13:19.854
George Bumann: If my
throat's clear enough,

01:13:36.294 --> 01:13:37.764
Rupert Isaacson: I can now
see why they call it bugling.

01:13:37.764 --> 01:13:41.934
So I often wondered that because you
know, with Red Deer, which is the European

01:13:41.934 --> 01:13:43.164
equivalent, they don't make that sound.

01:13:43.164 --> 01:13:43.849
It's more like a Yeah, they bark.

01:13:44.964 --> 01:13:45.414
Sort of,

01:13:45.414 --> 01:13:46.314
George Bumann: Yeah, they roar.

01:13:46.494 --> 01:13:46.854
Yeah.

01:13:46.854 --> 01:13:48.954
George Bumann: Very un unmanly sound.

01:13:48.954 --> 01:13:52.494
When some people hear it for the first
time, they're like, we're, we're expecting

01:13:52.854 --> 01:13:55.494
more Like that ro like the bison.

01:13:55.494 --> 01:13:56.034
Do you know?

01:13:56.454 --> 01:13:58.854
Like, no, that's, that's our a

01:13:59.994 --> 01:14:01.554
Rupert Isaacson: You somehow
feel unmanned personally by that.

01:14:01.554 --> 01:14:01.794
That's,

01:14:04.254 --> 01:14:04.614
yeah.

01:14:05.154 --> 01:14:05.394
Anyway.

01:14:05.394 --> 01:14:05.664
Yeah.

01:14:05.724 --> 01:14:06.384
I digress.

01:14:06.684 --> 01:14:06.774
Okay.

01:14:06.774 --> 01:14:07.464
Craig, it's all you.

01:14:07.464 --> 01:14:08.244
That's a great digression.

01:14:08.244 --> 01:14:11.094
Craig, falling in love
with, love with nature.

01:14:12.084 --> 01:14:12.954
How did it happen for you?

01:14:15.564 --> 01:14:16.314
Craig Foster: So, I think

01:14:16.414 --> 01:14:21.004
you know, the, the, the, the, the natural
thing for me when I was younger was to

01:14:21.004 --> 01:14:27.884
try and you, you feel that inside you,
you feel that three millennial ancestral

01:14:27.884 --> 01:14:33.914
pull and because of the strange place
you grow up in, you've got absolutely

01:14:33.914 --> 01:14:37.064
no idea really of how to find that.

01:14:37.544 --> 01:14:45.514
So you go for a cliche, you go for it must
be in the wildest, most dangerous place.

01:14:46.174 --> 01:14:52.444
So, you know, I started with big
sharks and then progressed to diving,

01:14:52.684 --> 01:14:58.094
you know, in giant crocodile layers
going into the down the tunnels in

01:14:58.094 --> 01:15:02.844
the avago to the place where these
massive reptiles drag their prey.

01:15:03.339 --> 01:15:08.139
Thinking that that one might be a good
place to find what you're talking about.

01:15:09.429 --> 01:15:14.479
But because you can only spend literally
minutes in these places, and we are

01:15:14.479 --> 01:15:16.609
very lucky to make it out alive.

01:15:17.329 --> 01:15:22.369
It's what, what George is saying, you
get absolutely, really no, you get

01:15:22.369 --> 01:15:28.039
this unbelievable adventure and in,
in way too much adrenaline, but you

01:15:28.109 --> 01:15:32.939
you don't get any of that incredible
detail that he's talking about.

01:15:33.749 --> 01:15:35.849
So it was an amazing adventure.

01:15:35.849 --> 01:15:40.439
But ironically, I came back here
to the great African Sea Forest and

01:15:40.439 --> 01:15:45.749
started studying an animal that you
would think would be very boring

01:15:45.749 --> 01:15:47.129
and wouldn't bring you anywhere.

01:15:47.789 --> 01:15:49.529
And that's the humble limpet.

01:15:50.219 --> 01:15:54.419
This is an animal that kind of looks
like a rocket, doesn't seem to move much.

01:15:54.424 --> 01:15:54.534
Rupert Isaacson: Why?

01:15:54.659 --> 01:15:56.189
Why did you choose that animal?

01:15:57.599 --> 01:15:59.339
Craig Foster: Because
they're so accessible.

01:15:59.399 --> 01:16:04.919
You can go down, I can go down every
single low tide and observe these animals.

01:16:04.919 --> 01:16:09.269
It's so, so the world hotspot for
limpets, about 25 species or more

01:16:09.659 --> 01:16:14.469
from the massive giant limpet to the,
you know, tiny little Yale limpert.

01:16:15.099 --> 01:16:20.229
But I was like just watching these
animals day in, day out, day in

01:16:20.409 --> 01:16:21.909
out, and not much was happening.

01:16:21.909 --> 01:16:27.489
And then suddenly you get these epiphanies
and they take you into their secret lives.

01:16:27.834 --> 01:16:30.564
Deeper and deeper, and you
think, okay, I've looked at

01:16:30.564 --> 01:16:31.854
them now every day for a year.

01:16:32.574 --> 01:16:33.144
That's it.

01:16:33.144 --> 01:16:35.694
And then the next day, oh my
goodness, you knew nothing.

01:16:36.234 --> 01:16:38.004
And it takes you deeper and deeper.

01:16:38.694 --> 01:16:42.534
And they're fertilizing their
gardens at low tide, you know,

01:16:42.534 --> 01:16:44.544
pooping on their own lgal gardens.

01:16:44.544 --> 01:16:47.124
They're trimming the gardens
just to the right amount.

01:16:47.544 --> 01:16:52.884
They're growing certain alies, they,
you know, tender gardens for years.

01:16:53.334 --> 01:16:58.914
I mean, it is, you know, incredible
ways of trying to avoid predation,

01:16:58.944 --> 01:17:01.314
extreme predators hunting them.

01:17:01.314 --> 01:17:06.474
I mean, it's just, there's absolute,
but what is, what happens at a certain

01:17:06.474 --> 01:17:13.134
stage, and this is the critical
thing, you suddenly feel like you are,

01:17:15.264 --> 01:17:20.064
your consciousness is starting to blend
a little bit with a lipid consciousness.

01:17:20.064 --> 01:17:21.234
As hard as that sounds.

01:17:21.294 --> 01:17:24.924
This is a mollusk you know,
that lives in a shell.

01:17:24.924 --> 01:17:29.434
It's like a snail an ocean snail
of a sort, highly modified.

01:17:29.914 --> 01:17:33.334
And then you go into the, you
know, what's growing on the shell.

01:17:33.334 --> 01:17:37.804
You've got these marine lichens boring
into their shells and they're building

01:17:37.804 --> 01:17:43.654
them up to survive that each, you can
look at each shell and you can tell.

01:17:44.454 --> 01:17:47.004
How that animal has lived
in what environment?

01:17:47.004 --> 01:17:51.714
By the shape of the shell, by how it's
being carved by the rocks around it.

01:17:51.714 --> 01:17:57.924
And what happens is you start to merge
to some degree with lier consciousness.

01:17:57.924 --> 01:18:05.344
So, and the, the, the, the,
you feel like you're part of

01:18:05.344 --> 01:18:07.114
that intertidal environment.

01:18:07.114 --> 01:18:11.494
Somehow, somehow your mind is,
and you can figure things out.

01:18:11.494 --> 01:18:17.644
You can think of what it might be like to
be in a storm as a limpert or what it's

01:18:17.644 --> 01:18:22.444
like to feed, or how you're dealing with
the sun and the heat, and where all these

01:18:22.444 --> 01:18:24.754
biotic pressures are moving you around.

01:18:25.114 --> 01:18:29.884
And suddenly you are, you feel the
beating heart of the intertidal

01:18:29.884 --> 01:18:31.504
in your own beating heart.

01:18:31.984 --> 01:18:36.724
That's very different to going
into a crocodile there a few times.

01:18:37.294 --> 01:18:39.604
You know, you, you actually
feel part of this thing.

01:18:39.604 --> 01:18:44.494
And that's the critical thing, is
that the sense of belonging, this

01:18:44.494 --> 01:18:46.474
is the most key word, belonging.

01:18:47.014 --> 01:18:50.434
So you feel that you
belong on this planet.

01:18:50.434 --> 01:18:51.604
You're part of it.

01:18:51.994 --> 01:18:58.174
You are wild animal in a sense, living
the strange domesticated existence, but

01:18:58.174 --> 01:19:00.364
you are actually a wild animal at heart.

01:19:01.264 --> 01:19:07.024
And then you feel the, the, that.

01:19:08.994 --> 01:19:12.859
It is hard to, it doesn't want to
sound like a cliche, but you feel

01:19:12.859 --> 01:19:18.169
the, the immensity of the creation
of the biodiversity that's, that's

01:19:18.169 --> 01:19:24.139
literally inside you and keeping
you alive from second to second.

01:19:24.169 --> 01:19:30.129
And that it's like, you know, nature and
all this diversity and this incredible

01:19:30.129 --> 01:19:34.359
detail and these lives of these animals
is the most cl closest thing I've

01:19:34.359 --> 01:19:39.759
ever come to the divine manifest in
something you can actually witness and

01:19:39.759 --> 01:19:43.059
feel and appreciate and understand.

01:19:43.449 --> 01:19:45.669
It's manifested in a way.

01:19:45.669 --> 01:19:47.889
It's so complex and so extraordinary.

01:19:48.669 --> 01:19:52.779
So it becomes, the simple
creature is a limper.

01:19:52.779 --> 01:19:58.689
It seems simple, but it's highly
complex becomes divine in a sense.

01:20:01.119 --> 01:20:04.359
Rupert Isaacson: It's a big extreme
jump though, to go from going into

01:20:04.359 --> 01:20:08.289
the crocodiles layer to the limper.

01:20:09.339 --> 01:20:11.709
Was there a conscious, was
that a conscious thing to say?

01:20:11.709 --> 01:20:15.609
I, I want to take it now
to the microcosmic level.

01:20:15.609 --> 01:20:18.219
I, I, I, I need to do this.

01:20:18.219 --> 01:20:23.019
That I, I feel that the crocodiles
less stuff, although yes, young men

01:20:23.049 --> 01:20:26.319
need to do this sort of thing, testing
themselves, that's also part of our

01:20:26.319 --> 01:20:29.409
300, 3 million year old history too.

01:20:30.279 --> 01:20:31.899
But there's also, that's also ego.

01:20:32.259 --> 01:20:34.029
I mean, everybody does it.

01:20:34.819 --> 01:20:38.809
Presumably we're supposed to, presumably
we're wired to someone's, you've got to

01:20:40.279 --> 01:20:43.729
steal yourself to put that spear into
the bison at a certain point and know

01:20:43.729 --> 01:20:45.589
that it may well turn back and duff you.

01:20:46.379 --> 01:20:50.819
Okay, but that sounds like a
conscious decision to go from

01:20:51.509 --> 01:20:53.069
the crocodiles led to the Limper.

01:20:53.879 --> 01:20:55.199
Where was that decision made?

01:20:57.809 --> 01:21:02.339
Craig Foster: I mean, unconsciously, it
was made in the plaster scene when I was

01:21:02.339 --> 01:21:05.519
your 25-year-old person in the Kalahari.

01:21:06.039 --> 01:21:11.169
When I saw and felt those incredible
sound on trackers able to speak

01:21:11.169 --> 01:21:17.139
with nature so fluently, and I also
wanted to speak with nature like

01:21:17.139 --> 01:21:19.119
George does in the most profound way.

01:21:19.899 --> 01:21:24.369
And then, then I suddenly, years
and years later, 20 odd years later,

01:21:24.549 --> 01:21:25.989
okay, I'm stopping everything.

01:21:25.989 --> 01:21:27.339
I'm stopping filmmaking.

01:21:27.759 --> 01:21:31.869
I don't care about, you know,
I'm just gonna, if I lose money

01:21:31.869 --> 01:21:33.039
or whatever, it doesn't matter.

01:21:33.039 --> 01:21:38.469
I have to be able to speak the language of
nature and which is ultimately tracking.

01:21:39.219 --> 01:21:44.349
And I think George probably came onto
that path a lot earlier than I did.

01:21:44.469 --> 01:21:47.529
I don't know what, what is, what
would your answer to that question?

01:21:47.529 --> 01:21:49.149
I'd be very curious to know, George.

01:21:50.079 --> 01:21:50.229
George Bumann: Yeah.

01:21:50.229 --> 01:21:54.849
I think a lot like you Craig,
I, I, I proceeded with deeds.

01:21:54.849 --> 01:21:54.909
I.

01:21:55.389 --> 01:22:01.389
You know, things, activities that I
thought put me in the space to know.

01:22:01.749 --> 01:22:04.629
And I think when you first asked the
question, Rupert, that, that's what

01:22:04.629 --> 01:22:10.329
initially came to my mind is the love
begins with the knowing and, and the

01:22:10.329 --> 01:22:12.819
knowing can't take place without first.

01:22:15.159 --> 01:22:18.729
And I hunted and I fished and I trapped.

01:22:18.789 --> 01:22:22.569
I did all kinds of things
that I don't do now.

01:22:22.629 --> 01:22:25.179
They're part of my ancestry and
I still know how to do them.

01:22:25.179 --> 01:22:30.579
I dream, I do them in my dreams
more than I, I can tell you.

01:22:31.149 --> 01:22:36.459
But they were all in an effort to, you
know, your kind of question there to

01:22:36.459 --> 01:22:38.799
Craig about when did you pick the limpets?

01:22:38.799 --> 01:22:43.059
And I, I kind of see that in myself.

01:22:43.089 --> 01:22:44.349
The, the choices.

01:22:44.399 --> 01:22:49.529
It's a deep seated one as well, but it's,
it's just something on a continuum where

01:22:49.529 --> 01:22:51.689
subject matter doesn't matter anymore.

01:22:52.319 --> 01:23:00.209
The real goal is the relational tie and,
and the desire to know another, another

01:23:00.209 --> 01:23:04.319
across the species boundary that sees
and experiences this world in ways I

01:23:04.319 --> 01:23:09.269
never will, but like all relationships,
they require time and putting in

01:23:09.269 --> 01:23:12.119
that time, no matter what it is.

01:23:12.119 --> 01:23:13.169
For me, it was ravens.

01:23:13.229 --> 01:23:14.609
When we first moved to Yellowstone,

01:23:17.039 --> 01:23:20.429
they taught me how to be a better person.

01:23:21.809 --> 01:23:26.279
They, they showed me things that
no other human could show me.

01:23:28.259 --> 01:23:37.409
And to the, the, the apex experiences
that come with that cultivation of

01:23:37.409 --> 01:23:43.559
knowing even very simple, normal
standards, simple creatures, stories and

01:23:43.559 --> 01:23:50.039
experiences I've had with butterflies
and, and beetle larvae and bison.

01:23:50.069 --> 01:23:57.179
And wolves and anybody, and I say anybody
intentionally that I've had the pleasure

01:23:57.179 --> 01:24:02.009
of spending time with to really feel them.

01:24:02.669 --> 01:24:04.439
And it becomes emotional.

01:24:05.849 --> 01:24:12.689
And when something happens to them, I
feel some piece of what they're feeling.

01:24:16.379 --> 01:24:18.149
It, it's welling up in me now.

01:24:18.299 --> 01:24:21.809
You know, I was trying to finish a
sculpture of this one alpha female wolf

01:24:21.869 --> 01:24:23.879
that I'd known since she was so young,

01:24:26.189 --> 01:24:28.169
and she went outside
the park and got shot.

01:24:29.069 --> 01:24:29.399
Mm-hmm.

01:24:30.329 --> 01:24:35.849
I couldn't finish the sculpture I got with
her in front of me, as I often try to do.

01:24:37.289 --> 01:24:39.114
So I had to finish it from memory, but.

01:24:40.514 --> 01:24:44.474
You know, whether it was Mama Dear
here, is you open to noticing.

01:24:44.624 --> 01:24:45.494
Just start there.

01:24:45.554 --> 01:24:48.914
You know, so many people don't
know or even begin on a path like

01:24:49.754 --> 01:24:52.064
Craig's or Mine or yours, Rupert it.

01:24:52.064 --> 01:24:56.894
It starts with just noticing, don't
do anything different than you already

01:24:56.894 --> 01:25:01.634
are right now, but just look in the
grass before you get in the car.

01:25:03.164 --> 01:25:04.064
Look in the sky.

01:25:05.054 --> 01:25:06.464
What are the clouds like today?

01:25:07.364 --> 01:25:08.804
How many birds do you see?

01:25:09.824 --> 01:25:15.314
Let that be your stepping off
point to begin to know, to see when

01:25:15.314 --> 01:25:17.174
something changes and it's different.

01:25:18.014 --> 01:25:23.624
And you find that with that time, that
knowing soaks into you in that way.

01:25:23.624 --> 01:25:30.884
Our ancestors knew implicitly
that you are of this place.

01:25:32.204 --> 01:25:36.884
Yes, you're human, but you
are not separate from this.

01:25:37.724 --> 01:25:39.674
You do not live just at an address.

01:25:39.674 --> 01:25:42.464
You live of this place

01:25:44.624 --> 01:25:45.854
and you treat it differently.

01:25:46.064 --> 01:25:48.404
As a result, you react differently.

01:25:49.034 --> 01:25:53.234
You experience more than you
probably ever thought possible

01:25:56.579 --> 01:25:58.514
Rupert Isaacson: It, it sounds like,

01:26:00.584 --> 01:26:03.554
and I wonder if our 3 million year
old ancestors went through this and

01:26:03.554 --> 01:26:07.814
I need to go back and ask some of
my friends in the Kalahari, but.

01:26:09.434 --> 01:26:14.874
Craig, and it sounds like you became
broken hearted somehow, even though you

01:26:14.874 --> 01:26:21.324
were so, you know, living your life with
indi indigenous people and nature, but

01:26:21.324 --> 01:26:25.794
of course you were having to film and,
you know, that's a, and sell those films

01:26:25.794 --> 01:26:29.244
internationally and that's a hell of a
business and yes, it will exhaust you.

01:26:29.904 --> 01:26:35.334
But at the same time, you were doing
it in these natural places with, and

01:26:35.334 --> 01:26:39.414
yet it, you still became broken hearted

01:26:42.429 --> 01:26:45.234
and that of course cracked
your heart wide open.

01:26:46.194 --> 01:26:48.294
George, have you become brokenhearted?

01:26:50.299 --> 01:26:50.589
Yeah.

01:26:50.634 --> 01:26:52.614
And tell us about that.

01:26:54.264 --> 01:26:55.404
George Bumann: I still am in ways.

01:26:55.614 --> 01:26:55.704
Mm-hmm.

01:26:55.944 --> 01:26:56.994
I think we all are.

01:26:57.324 --> 01:27:04.464
It's different shades of it and it's sort
of our, our burden to bear, but also our,

01:27:06.564 --> 01:27:11.784
our challenge to overcome by
just not dwelling on that, but

01:27:11.784 --> 01:27:17.064
seeking those good things, those
really beautiful things in life.

01:27:17.094 --> 01:27:23.214
Like Craig was saying, just how amazing we
are as a species, like our senses and our

01:27:23.214 --> 01:27:29.784
ability to, to put two and two together
and find relationships is unbelievable.

01:27:32.634 --> 01:27:37.794
I think this comes from tracking not
only the outside friend and I are having

01:27:37.794 --> 01:27:43.824
a very deep, extensive conversation on
this that's lasted weeks visiting every

01:27:43.824 --> 01:27:48.924
now and then and hitting this topic
of tracking outwardly and inwardly.

01:27:50.634 --> 01:27:54.174
We deny the inward tracking
so much that I totally agree.

01:27:54.834 --> 01:27:58.374
We do find ourselves broken
hearted and not knowing why.

01:27:58.824 --> 01:27:59.394
Yes.

01:28:00.174 --> 01:28:01.644
George Bumann: How the
hell did I get here?

01:28:01.644 --> 01:28:07.434
That's, I'm in here with these people,
with these animals and I feel like shit.

01:28:07.674 --> 01:28:08.904
Mm-hmm.

01:28:09.144 --> 01:28:09.619
What is that about?

01:28:11.274 --> 01:28:15.594
And so you start having to follow the bent
grass and the, and the pebbles kicked out

01:28:15.594 --> 01:28:24.444
of their places within your own heart and
mind in ways that are not comfortable.

01:28:26.214 --> 01:28:30.624
I think that's keeps a lot
of us from going there.

01:28:30.624 --> 01:28:34.194
Is it to heal, requires some pain

01:28:37.344 --> 01:28:38.904
and, and healing ourselves.

01:28:38.904 --> 01:28:44.784
The, the ancestors of my lineage who
did the things they did to Native

01:28:44.784 --> 01:28:48.564
Americans, they were hurting themselves
as much as they were hurting the

01:28:48.564 --> 01:28:50.034
people they were doing things to.

01:28:50.754 --> 01:28:53.424
Rupert Isaacson: And they were coming
out of a cycle of warfare back in Europe.

01:28:53.424 --> 01:28:54.774
That an oppression Right.

01:28:54.774 --> 01:28:55.794
That was, you know.

01:28:56.154 --> 01:28:56.364
Mm-hmm.

01:28:56.424 --> 01:29:00.714
George Bumann: And me banging my head
against a computer is doing harm to me.

01:29:02.154 --> 01:29:03.504
That I need to repair.

01:29:05.064 --> 01:29:08.964
And boy, nature is one hell of a sve.

01:29:09.564 --> 01:29:10.734
It always has been.

01:29:11.664 --> 01:29:17.634
And it's there for free to all
of us all the time right now.

01:29:18.444 --> 01:29:19.014
Stop.

01:29:20.004 --> 01:29:24.504
Put the video on pause and
just go out for five minutes.

01:29:25.554 --> 01:29:26.604
Rupert Isaacson: Do you
hear that listeners?

01:29:27.024 --> 01:29:27.384
Do it.

01:29:27.744 --> 01:29:28.104
Stop.

01:29:28.134 --> 01:29:35.034
Well, even though it's sacrilege to
stop George Boman and Craig Foster

01:29:35.034 --> 01:29:37.524
and one gets fined for doing that.

01:29:37.524 --> 01:29:40.134
But nonetheless, stop it and do that.

01:29:40.344 --> 01:29:43.554
Go out and, and then
go out for five minutes

01:29:45.984 --> 01:29:51.684
and then cut and write down what
you saw and then click restart.

01:29:51.744 --> 01:29:53.904
You're probably gonna listen to
this in stages anyway because

01:29:53.904 --> 01:29:55.194
it's a couple of hours long.

01:29:55.854 --> 01:30:00.624
Yeah, the, I was just thinking, you
know, you could go through YouTube and

01:30:00.624 --> 01:30:05.094
look for morning rituals, you know,
all of which are great meditations.

01:30:05.124 --> 01:30:06.384
Meditations are gratitude.

01:30:07.464 --> 01:30:10.614
I do think God wants us to appreciate
and enjoy and be grateful for.

01:30:11.374 --> 01:30:15.364
But appreciate not just, you know,
not just thank you in that kind

01:30:15.364 --> 01:30:16.894
of coward way, but no, really.

01:30:16.894 --> 01:30:17.284
Thank you.

01:30:17.284 --> 01:30:18.184
This is incredible.

01:30:19.124 --> 01:30:20.324
God wants us to dance.

01:30:20.324 --> 01:30:22.814
God wants us to rejoice.

01:30:24.104 --> 01:30:30.404
The, this planet is so joyful when
one watches nature, one often is,

01:30:30.404 --> 01:30:32.054
seems to be observing it at play.

01:30:32.924 --> 01:30:35.444
And we know that we are
very playful species.

01:30:35.534 --> 01:30:38.594
And it's interesting when I'm
watching my horses, and my horses

01:30:38.594 --> 01:30:45.079
are the, probably my closest bond
with nature because they're family.

01:30:45.319 --> 01:30:50.834
I, I, they're, we are a herd of
human, cross species, human horse

01:30:50.984 --> 01:30:52.844
family and have been for years.

01:30:52.844 --> 01:30:57.184
And some of my horses were born outside
my back door and used to come into the

01:30:57.184 --> 01:30:59.314
kitchen and get a beer out of the fridge.

01:30:59.314 --> 01:30:59.974
I'm not joking.

01:31:00.574 --> 01:31:01.114
And

01:31:03.154 --> 01:31:07.414
they, but they carry me and
they carry autistic children out

01:31:07.414 --> 01:31:13.984
into the world and they allow
themselves to be interacted with.

01:31:15.094 --> 01:31:17.644
And they're okay being in service,
but they're not in servitude.

01:31:18.874 --> 01:31:21.964
And one is fulfilling and one is crushing.

01:31:24.154 --> 01:31:30.154
And I think we've been in servitude
as a species for a bit that taming.

01:31:31.534 --> 01:31:35.134
And when you were saying George,
okay, here I am in this beautiful

01:31:35.134 --> 01:31:38.854
place among these amazing people and
there's a wolf over there and there's

01:31:38.854 --> 01:31:40.054
this raven who's talking to me.

01:31:41.164 --> 01:31:42.154
And yet I feel like shit.

01:31:44.504 --> 01:31:50.839
It is almost like, I feel that when you go
into nature, there is, it does of course

01:31:51.049 --> 01:31:58.309
bring to a head the infection that's
inside from the last 10,000 years that is

01:31:58.309 --> 01:32:01.849
actually doing what it should do, which
is coming to a head a big pustule to be,

01:32:03.169 --> 01:32:06.229
there's lots of YouTube videos on that and
jolly satisfying they are to watch you.

01:32:06.289 --> 01:32:08.539
People getting bot flies out
of their hands and things.

01:32:09.199 --> 01:32:10.099
Watch three hours of that.

01:32:10.519 --> 01:32:15.644
But nonetheless, it, it's painful and the
pressure, the buildup of the pressure and

01:32:15.644 --> 01:32:18.589
so, and, and it could kill you, right?

01:32:18.589 --> 01:32:22.489
There is always that slight thing that
it, it could, if the pressure builds up

01:32:22.939 --> 01:32:29.089
enough, and I know you've experienced
this Craig, you know, in the Kalahari

01:32:29.089 --> 01:32:33.529
with the healers, that they, they
experience death when they heal sometimes.

01:32:33.529 --> 01:32:35.899
And this happened when my son was healed.

01:32:36.109 --> 01:32:37.219
He's sleeping downstairs now.

01:32:37.219 --> 01:32:38.839
He just got off the plane.

01:32:38.839 --> 01:32:42.319
Huge hulking guy now from Texas
this morning here in Germany.

01:32:42.739 --> 01:32:43.069
Remember?

01:32:43.069 --> 01:32:43.459
Wow.

01:32:43.519 --> 01:32:46.969
You were that little kid who was
falling asleep in my arms at the

01:32:46.969 --> 01:32:51.769
transpires, in the Kalahari peacefully
while we and Unter who were healing.

01:32:51.769 --> 01:33:00.859
You were going into the spirit world and
suffering on your behalf and we died that,

01:33:01.159 --> 01:33:02.509
oh, if you've seen that happen, Craig.

01:33:02.509 --> 01:33:02.749
Yeah.

01:33:03.139 --> 01:33:04.459
Where the.

01:33:04.894 --> 01:33:10.304
The norm, the, the, the healing
energy becomes overwhelmingly strong

01:33:10.304 --> 01:33:13.424
because they have to, they're now
facing something in the spirit world.

01:33:13.424 --> 01:33:16.634
That's a such a huge challenge
that they have to deal with.

01:33:17.594 --> 01:33:20.954
And, you know, these are guys in
their seventies, eighties, they're

01:33:20.954 --> 01:33:27.104
dancing 12 out, and then, you know,
they have to attend it, me to bring

01:33:27.104 --> 01:33:32.864
him back so that he can then continue
and then onto takes on here and row's

01:33:32.864 --> 01:33:34.004
just sleeping through all of this.

01:33:34.004 --> 01:33:35.894
But they're really expressing

01:33:38.144 --> 01:33:42.254
our, our need to come to
a head and pop and burst,

01:33:44.654 --> 01:33:49.784
but then come back to a
homeostasis again to harmony.

01:33:50.504 --> 01:33:52.544
And we, we see this all the
time in nature, don't we?

01:33:52.544 --> 01:33:57.314
You know, volcanoes and weather systems
and predator prey relationships,

01:33:59.414 --> 01:34:00.914
but this deep broken heartedness.

01:34:00.914 --> 01:34:04.484
I think everyone listening
probably goes, yeah,

01:34:07.214 --> 01:34:10.844
what you just said, George,
just start noticing you.

01:34:10.874 --> 01:34:17.939
What you don't see on those like morning
ritual videos is that get up out of bed.

01:34:18.044 --> 01:34:19.064
Don't worry about deep breathing.

01:34:19.274 --> 01:34:26.264
Don't worry about, just go
outside and look and write

01:34:26.264 --> 01:34:29.684
down what you see and observe.

01:34:29.864 --> 01:34:32.264
Do you feel better or do you feel worse?

01:34:37.184 --> 01:34:41.984
I think you too, do it every day
just because of where you live.

01:34:44.234 --> 01:34:48.644
I think back to the snail tracks on the
eating, the algae, on the paving stones.

01:34:48.644 --> 01:34:50.894
It can be difficult
when it's less obvious.

01:34:52.064 --> 01:34:59.984
And then it helps to have someone inspire
you to begin to notice the limpet,

01:35:00.284 --> 01:35:05.744
the snail thing, the, the small stuff
as you said, George, the bank grass,

01:35:06.284 --> 01:35:08.564
the pebbles kicked, who kicked them?

01:35:10.364 --> 01:35:13.154
What animal kicked them, even
if it was a human animal.

01:35:13.154 --> 01:35:14.894
What was the human animal story of that?

01:35:15.914 --> 01:35:18.224
So to heal this broken heart,

01:35:21.344 --> 01:35:26.654
you know, you, you, you are talking Craig,
about the thousand One Species Project to

01:35:26.654 --> 01:35:29.654
make people fall back in love with nature.

01:35:33.044 --> 01:35:36.074
Do we need actually to fall
in love with nature, to fall

01:35:36.074 --> 01:35:37.244
back in love with ourselves?

01:35:41.264 --> 01:35:44.264
Craig Foster: I think it's a
wonderful thing that you said there.

01:35:44.954 --> 01:35:46.879
Because we are nature.

01:35:47.089 --> 01:35:47.389
Yeah.

01:35:47.779 --> 01:35:49.159
There's no separation.

01:35:49.489 --> 01:35:49.639
Yeah.

01:35:49.669 --> 01:35:52.159
So we, we, we do need to.

01:35:53.149 --> 01:35:54.979
And love nature to love ourselves.

01:35:55.339 --> 01:36:00.709
And we, our, our whole survival
depends on the natural world.

01:36:00.709 --> 01:36:04.819
So if we don't love her, we don't
fall in love with her again.

01:36:05.359 --> 01:36:08.569
We'll, almost certainly
that'll be our demise.

01:36:08.959 --> 01:36:09.049
Mm-hmm.

01:36:09.289 --> 01:36:15.649
So it is, it is, to me, it is the most
precious thing we'll ever encounter.

01:36:15.949 --> 01:36:18.649
It's our life support system.

01:36:18.709 --> 01:36:25.189
Everything we do depends on it so that
nobody can convince me that there's

01:36:25.189 --> 01:36:30.769
anything more important than protecting
our mother of mothers, our great mother.

01:36:30.769 --> 01:36:31.219
Nature.

01:36:31.249 --> 01:36:36.319
There's no, it's a foundation of
every single aspect of our existence.

01:36:37.159 --> 01:36:43.939
And somehow we just need to realize
that, and all of us have kind of somehow

01:36:43.969 --> 01:36:45.829
forgotten just how critical it is.

01:36:46.869 --> 01:36:49.089
So absolutely essential.

01:36:49.359 --> 01:36:52.629
And to realize there is no separation.

01:36:53.389 --> 01:36:57.529
And that's what's happening here in the
little death that you're talking about.

01:36:57.529 --> 01:36:58.549
In the Kalahari.

01:36:58.939 --> 01:37:04.039
You're dying, your ego is dying, and then
you are merging with all that there is.

01:37:04.489 --> 01:37:07.319
And it's the same thing
that needs to happen.

01:37:07.319 --> 01:37:13.479
We need to realize that we are
inseparable from this extraordinary.

01:37:14.199 --> 01:37:19.509
Biological intelligence, not only on this
planet, but extends into the deep cosmos.

01:37:20.179 --> 01:37:23.319
That is our, you know, deep, deep mother.

01:37:23.949 --> 01:37:29.349
So it's a, it's a, I think, an absolutely
vital thing that we desperately need to

01:37:29.349 --> 01:37:31.809
change the story to be on that track.

01:37:36.459 --> 01:37:38.739
Rupert Isaacson: We talk about the
death of an ego, death of the ego,

01:37:39.159 --> 01:37:45.459
and because of ego's gone wild,
gone nuts, maybe not gone unw,

01:37:48.669 --> 01:37:51.519
egos now seem to cause great suffering
to the point that we always seem to

01:37:51.519 --> 01:37:53.409
be trying to escape our ego, whatever.

01:37:53.859 --> 01:37:58.749
But that's impossible because
it's part of nature now.

01:38:00.099 --> 01:38:02.049
It must be or it wouldn't be in us.

01:38:02.409 --> 01:38:04.089
So it can't be bad.

01:38:04.089 --> 01:38:06.699
It's got to be there
actually for a reason.

01:38:06.699 --> 01:38:08.649
It must have just gotten
outta whack somehow.

01:38:10.299 --> 01:38:17.559
What do you think, George, in the natural
wild human context, what's the ego for?

01:38:18.489 --> 01:38:21.999
Do you, and both of you,
what do you observe of ego

01:38:22.209 --> 01:38:25.419
in animals in other species?

01:38:26.374 --> 01:38:28.749
Is it solely human

01:38:31.059 --> 01:38:33.819
or is it actually expressed everywhere?

01:38:35.529 --> 01:38:39.039
It's just that we, what, what
and what is, what is its purpose?

01:38:39.039 --> 01:38:41.559
What is the same natural wild?

01:38:41.649 --> 01:38:42.609
What's the wild.

01:38:42.924 --> 01:38:44.094
Expression of the ego.

01:38:44.694 --> 01:38:45.744
What do you think, Georgia?

01:38:47.784 --> 01:38:48.504
George Bumann: Great question.

01:38:48.504 --> 01:38:48.924
Rupert.

01:38:50.574 --> 01:38:57.714
I think it does exist in other species,
and like most things, there's a, a

01:38:57.714 --> 01:39:00.594
continuum of, of how that's expressed.

01:39:01.044 --> 01:39:06.954
And I think at the most basic level
ego, ego expressed in, in nature is,

01:39:06.954 --> 01:39:08.964
I'm the best you wanna meet with me?

01:39:09.294 --> 01:39:11.424
Look how shiny my feathers are, right?

01:39:11.424 --> 01:39:11.514
Mm-hmm.

01:39:12.234 --> 01:39:14.154
You know, I'm bigger, I'm stronger.

01:39:14.364 --> 01:39:19.974
It ha it has a place to further
the species, to further the

01:39:19.974 --> 01:39:25.194
strongest aspects of the species
into the unknown of the future.

01:39:26.784 --> 01:39:33.024
And so there, I think it is a very
useful tool to, to help life perpetuate

01:39:33.024 --> 01:39:39.644
itself, or I think it goes wrong, is
when it it's taken out of context.

01:39:40.004 --> 01:39:45.774
It's, it's applied to, to everything or
in, in places that it isn't, doesn't fit.

01:39:47.364 --> 01:39:49.554
And that's where we start
running into trouble.

01:39:50.684 --> 01:39:54.404
You know, you can see Bull Elk number
six in his main adversary number.

01:39:54.764 --> 01:39:56.594
10 in Yellowstone.

01:39:56.774 --> 01:39:56.864
Mm-hmm.

01:39:57.164 --> 01:40:03.554
You know, and vying for that one s
harem of females and fighting it out

01:40:03.554 --> 01:40:09.034
a couple times a year, but doing a, or
during the breeding season and showing

01:40:09.034 --> 01:40:15.334
off a whole bunch in between and as
a way to advertise to those females

01:40:15.334 --> 01:40:17.494
and intimidate your, your rivals.

01:40:18.904 --> 01:40:23.344
So that's where I think that's,
that's my initial snap response.

01:40:23.644 --> 01:40:28.804
Craig, do you have other thoughts
on, on egos roll in nature?

01:40:29.129 --> 01:40:29.419
Yeah.

01:40:31.534 --> 01:40:31.774
Craig Foster: Yeah.

01:40:31.774 --> 01:40:35.124
I think that it's not
always so cut and dry.

01:40:35.934 --> 01:40:40.104
You know, the, sometimes it appears
as if the biggest, strongest and

01:40:40.104 --> 01:40:45.154
tiniest can win out, but that's
often and sometimes not the case.

01:40:45.814 --> 01:40:47.854
But I think it's an amazing tool.

01:40:47.854 --> 01:40:49.324
It's a powerful thing.

01:40:49.324 --> 01:40:51.184
It's incredible for survival.

01:40:51.184 --> 01:40:54.814
It's absolutely necessary,
but it has its place.

01:40:55.174 --> 01:40:59.854
And I think animals are very good at
finding that balance where we, we've

01:40:59.854 --> 01:41:01.894
just got it completely out of balance.

01:41:02.494 --> 01:41:08.554
And that's because our environment and
especially money, has turned us upside

01:41:08.554 --> 01:41:11.044
down with trying to deal with ego.

01:41:11.044 --> 01:41:14.734
So we've, we've got a environment where
it's very difficult to deal with it.

01:41:17.644 --> 01:41:23.044
And we need to really draw on
our ancestral memory to find

01:41:23.044 --> 01:41:25.264
the appropriate place for it.

01:41:25.984 --> 01:41:29.044
So it's it's such a dangerous
thing when it's, you know,

01:41:29.104 --> 01:41:30.724
out of control like it is now.

01:41:31.924 --> 01:41:33.394
But there isn't, go ahead.

01:41:33.394 --> 01:41:33.544
Sorry.

01:41:33.544 --> 01:41:35.434
I was thinking of the story with wolves.

01:41:35.824 --> 01:41:42.154
You know, the, the wolves that
were actually Mika and more docile

01:41:42.334 --> 01:41:46.734
actually out one, the, the, the,
the meaner wolves because people

01:41:46.734 --> 01:41:49.524
interacted with them And am I right?

01:41:49.584 --> 01:41:51.174
George, there's some, yeah.

01:41:51.174 --> 01:41:54.594
Ideas around that, that the,
the biggest, strongest, meanest

01:41:54.594 --> 01:41:56.184
ones didn't actually survive.

01:41:56.184 --> 01:41:58.794
It was the, the more social ones that did.

01:41:59.394 --> 01:41:59.754
George Bumann: Yeah.

01:41:59.814 --> 01:42:04.644
Some of Robert Sapolsky's research with
baboons in Africa show that very clearly

01:42:04.704 --> 01:42:10.324
that they had a breakdown by virtue
of disease, where this safari camp was

01:42:10.384 --> 01:42:16.234
throwing putrid meat out into the dump
and the most dominant males were eating

01:42:16.234 --> 01:42:18.724
the meat and soon died of disease.

01:42:18.724 --> 01:42:24.004
And you had this culture of male
dominance and suppression of through

01:42:24.094 --> 01:42:30.344
violence, of, of other animals'
behavior within the troop turned

01:42:30.344 --> 01:42:33.134
over to a, in essence, a matrilineal.

01:42:33.884 --> 01:42:39.644
Control of the community and their
selection was for males who were nice.

01:42:40.394 --> 01:42:40.544
Hmm.

01:42:41.444 --> 01:42:42.824
You know, nature does that.

01:42:42.824 --> 01:42:48.404
It, it balances out the, the, it, it
makes room for all the strategies.

01:42:49.124 --> 01:42:49.484
Hmm.

01:42:49.514 --> 01:42:49.754
But it

01:42:49.754 --> 01:42:54.044
George Bumann: also makes room
for the best strategies for

01:42:54.044 --> 01:42:56.924
that moment to come to the fore.

01:42:58.634 --> 01:43:03.734
And I think because of money in
particular, you know, David Grabber's

01:43:03.734 --> 01:43:08.894
last book, the Dawn of Everything,
is this beautiful analysis of this

01:43:08.894 --> 01:43:13.004
kind of idea of mankind going from
hunter gatherer to metropolitan

01:43:13.004 --> 01:43:16.814
living and the hunter gatherer, you
know, agrarian pieces all in between.

01:43:16.814 --> 01:43:21.584
And one of the segments he highlights
in there is the first initial contact

01:43:21.584 --> 01:43:26.444
in North America with Native Americans
and Europeans and some of the Native

01:43:26.444 --> 01:43:31.904
Americans going back to Europe or going
to Europe rather, and seeing just how

01:43:32.354 --> 01:43:38.624
horribly they treated the poor and the
indigent and, you know, literally laying

01:43:38.624 --> 01:43:41.474
in the streets, starving, injured, sick.

01:43:42.074 --> 01:43:45.344
That never happened in
their culture, you know?

01:43:45.344 --> 01:43:51.134
And, and Conran, one of the, the, the
Native, native American emissaries

01:43:51.134 --> 01:43:54.464
who was part of that, one of those
trips said, you've made a deal with

01:43:54.464 --> 01:43:58.214
the devil in the form of money.

01:43:59.639 --> 01:44:05.669
You would sell your, your mother,
your daughter for this, this surrogate

01:44:05.669 --> 01:44:08.249
to power, control, ego, whatever.

01:44:08.279 --> 01:44:15.539
You know, I'm, I'm paraphrasing now,
but that, that the world we've built

01:44:15.539 --> 01:44:22.769
around ourselves is, is not balanced in
context to the natural order of things.

01:44:23.699 --> 01:44:27.569
So these terrible things
happen much more readily.

01:44:29.369 --> 01:44:34.949
And that's one of the things I've
found with just noticing and knowing

01:44:35.189 --> 01:44:41.309
and loving, whether it was the mule
deer around the house or our mag pies

01:44:41.669 --> 01:44:46.529
who others de despise because they eat
other birds, but then they're being

01:44:46.529 --> 01:44:49.769
depredated by the ravens that are flying
up and down the creek this morning.

01:44:49.769 --> 01:44:57.539
And you, you realize there's no
good or bad, it's ill in context.

01:44:58.859 --> 01:45:04.709
Yet when isolated and set aside from the
natural order, some of these tendencies

01:45:04.709 --> 01:45:07.679
of any species can become malignant.

01:45:08.999 --> 01:45:09.419
Right.

01:45:09.419 --> 01:45:10.499
And I think we're dealing with that.

01:45:11.369 --> 01:45:12.031
I'm thinking of can I just,

01:45:12.194 --> 01:45:14.114
Craig Foster: can I add
to that ru Yeah, sorry.

01:45:14.264 --> 01:45:18.954
I think what just George has sparked
for me what is so apparent, and it's

01:45:19.494 --> 01:45:24.594
kind of obvious in a way, but when you
in these wild, near pristine places and

01:45:24.594 --> 01:45:31.704
you just feel that incredible natural
heartbeat everywhere, it's absolutely

01:45:31.704 --> 01:45:38.844
astonishing to one at that time that we've
given up all of this magnificence for

01:45:38.844 --> 01:45:44.879
this weird substance we call money and,
and the power and that comes with it.

01:45:45.719 --> 01:45:50.279
But we've, we've diminished our
lives so much in that process.

01:45:50.939 --> 01:45:54.149
We, we, we naturally want like, comfort.

01:45:55.169 --> 01:45:58.289
But there, there's a huge
price to pay for that.

01:45:58.319 --> 01:46:03.339
Of course one needs some level of of
comfort and security with, you know,

01:46:03.339 --> 01:46:05.619
where you live and water supply and so on.

01:46:05.619 --> 01:46:09.429
But it, it, it needs to be balanced.

01:46:09.629 --> 01:46:15.869
And to give up these incredible natural
systems for these levels of comfort is

01:46:15.869 --> 01:46:18.779
the worst deal that anybody has ever made.

01:46:19.139 --> 01:46:21.959
It's just, and it's so obvious
when you're in those places.

01:46:21.959 --> 01:46:24.959
It's just, what the hell have we done?

01:46:25.589 --> 01:46:31.199
And this madness to, to know levels
of comfort actually create massive

01:46:31.199 --> 01:46:33.989
discomfort in the wild animal that we are.

01:46:35.654 --> 01:46:36.164
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:46:36.314 --> 01:46:38.354
What I think you put your
finger on there is suffering.

01:46:39.224 --> 01:46:45.104
And so what I'm, and while you're
talking about the, you know, bull

01:46:45.104 --> 01:46:50.604
elk fighting or that sort of thing
for the ego in a natural, in, in

01:46:50.604 --> 01:46:56.964
the natural world, does the elk that
loses the fight suffer psychologically

01:46:59.154 --> 01:47:05.874
or does it feel, is is the fact that it's
living in its correct context, in its

01:47:05.874 --> 01:47:09.594
correct environment, in its correct way.

01:47:10.314 --> 01:47:14.904
Actually mitigate that suffering so that
the ego can work to the degree that it

01:47:14.904 --> 01:47:19.674
needs to, to say, okay, fine, we'll have
this DNA work in this way over here.

01:47:19.674 --> 01:47:24.934
But then as you were also saying in
the context of those baboons then

01:47:24.934 --> 01:47:30.064
the alpha males get to alpha male
and end up dying off in the females.

01:47:30.304 --> 01:47:32.164
Choose the nice ones.

01:47:32.764 --> 01:47:38.704
Is there suffering in the same
way that we as humans in our non

01:47:38.704 --> 01:47:41.764
wild context experience suffering?

01:47:43.444 --> 01:47:46.384
I would posit that.

01:47:46.384 --> 01:47:47.464
I don't think so.

01:47:47.524 --> 01:47:51.514
When I, when I, for example,
when I observe my horses, they

01:47:51.514 --> 01:47:57.454
go through these ups and downs in
the horse politic that they have.

01:47:57.484 --> 01:47:59.764
'cause they're an integrated
herd and have been for years.

01:48:00.374 --> 01:48:01.664
And some were born into the herd.

01:48:02.459 --> 01:48:05.009
And so they really know each other.

01:48:05.129 --> 01:48:12.839
And my old horse zag, who was very,
very much the dominant horse for a long

01:48:12.839 --> 01:48:20.969
time aged and two years ago, became
not so much unless he finds himself in

01:48:21.209 --> 01:48:22.799
the pen without the new dominant male.

01:48:22.799 --> 01:48:26.039
And then he kind of feels, okay, I kind
of have to sort of assert myself again.

01:48:26.039 --> 01:48:28.929
But you can almost see him kind of
go and it's almost not an assertion.

01:48:28.929 --> 01:48:31.319
It's he then has to be the one
that watches out for danger.

01:48:31.319 --> 01:48:34.519
He has to be the one that
takes responsibility.

01:48:34.879 --> 01:48:37.579
And that's, it's really exhausting
for horses when they do that.

01:48:37.789 --> 01:48:40.639
So they'll often in the daytime,
'cause they have to remain vigilant

01:48:40.639 --> 01:48:44.029
at night for the other ones,
they'll stretch out completely.

01:48:44.029 --> 01:48:44.899
It looks like they're dead.

01:48:45.169 --> 01:48:46.399
And actually it's hilarious.

01:48:46.399 --> 01:48:50.159
You know, sometimes people will call
in the animal health department, say, I

01:48:50.159 --> 01:48:51.299
think there's a dead horse in the field.

01:48:51.299 --> 01:48:52.139
It happens like all the time.

01:48:52.139 --> 01:48:54.149
Say, no, it's not a dead
horse, it's sleeping horse.

01:48:54.199 --> 01:48:58.369
And the non-dominant horses will
actually stand watch for the sleeping,

01:48:59.059 --> 01:49:02.899
supposed a dominant horse because
they know that he's got to restore

01:49:02.899 --> 01:49:05.179
his energy to keep them safe.

01:49:05.179 --> 01:49:08.509
So it seems to be that there's this,
and then of course, you know, this

01:49:08.559 --> 01:49:11.469
Craig, you know, among, again, among
the bushmen that we've spent so much

01:49:11.469 --> 01:49:17.089
time with, there's all these leveling,
again, conflict resolution strategies.

01:49:17.089 --> 01:49:20.569
Like if you are the alpha male and
you, you are like the best hunter.

01:49:20.959 --> 01:49:25.009
The, your kill is not yours because
all the arrows are made by women

01:49:25.009 --> 01:49:28.999
and children in the village and it's
very, very clear whose arrow is whose

01:49:29.029 --> 01:49:32.059
'cause they've all got, they will
put their signature on it somehow.

01:49:32.509 --> 01:49:35.719
And the other people in your hunting party
will also know because they'll see the

01:49:35.719 --> 01:49:38.209
arrow that you used if you made the kill.

01:49:38.209 --> 01:49:39.589
And they go, oh, that's aren't Betty's.

01:49:40.189 --> 01:49:43.549
So when you're allowed to eat the liver,
but you've got to take it back and

01:49:43.549 --> 01:49:47.359
then you've gotta give that one, that
carcass to Aunt Betty and Aunt Betty

01:49:47.359 --> 01:49:48.709
will be the one that distributes it.

01:49:49.219 --> 01:49:54.929
And these are sort of 3 million year old
human strategies for making sure that the

01:49:54.929 --> 01:49:59.219
ego can be used enough, but not too much.

01:50:00.539 --> 01:50:07.529
I would posit that that plus the shamanic
washing of the psychic dirty laundry

01:50:07.529 --> 01:50:12.269
every 10 days or so for wee funky
monkeys in, in those indigenous contexts,

01:50:14.399 --> 01:50:19.829
mitigates that suffering and then allows
the ego to do its job, which is sometimes

01:50:19.829 --> 01:50:28.799
to make us go a bit beyond our, the energy
level or the commit, you know, the comfort

01:50:28.799 --> 01:50:34.229
level perhaps that we would like to go to
for the good of the survival of the group

01:50:36.329 --> 01:50:37.349
is money.

01:50:37.409 --> 01:50:40.739
Where we call it money, but
I feel that money's neutral.

01:50:42.089 --> 01:50:44.129
Unless we can give it power either way.

01:50:44.939 --> 01:50:47.489
But is it, what we are really
looking at is fragmentation.

01:50:48.329 --> 01:50:50.759
And the idea of just
turning inward on the self.

01:50:50.939 --> 01:50:54.179
I'm no longer working for
the good of the group.

01:50:54.899 --> 01:50:56.249
I'm now working.

01:50:56.549 --> 01:50:59.459
The group is only me, even
though I'm part of a group.

01:51:00.209 --> 01:51:04.469
And is that when we actually then
suffer from our egos and that's

01:51:04.469 --> 01:51:05.879
when the ego becomes unwed?

01:51:05.939 --> 01:51:06.959
Is that, is that it?

01:51:08.129 --> 01:51:12.829
If you made it this far into the podcast,
then I'm guessing you're somebody

01:51:12.839 --> 01:51:17.819
that, like me, loves to read books
about not just how people have achieved

01:51:17.829 --> 01:51:23.829
self actualization, but particularly
about the relationship with nature.

01:51:24.279 --> 01:51:27.459
Spirituality, life, the
universe, and everything.

01:51:28.199 --> 01:51:31.149
And I'd like to draw your
attention to my books.

01:51:31.159 --> 01:51:35.839
If you would like to read the story
of how we even arrived here, perhaps

01:51:35.839 --> 01:51:40.299
you'd like to check out the two New
York Times bestsellers, The Horseboy

01:51:40.999 --> 01:51:45.969
and The Long Ride Home, and come on an
adventure with us and see what engendered,

01:51:46.029 --> 01:51:48.179
what started Live Free Ride Free.

01:51:48.199 --> 01:51:51.979
And before we go back to the
podcast, also check out The Healing

01:51:51.979 --> 01:51:54.469
Land, which tells the story of.

01:51:55.174 --> 01:52:00.564
My years spent in the Kalahari with the
Sun, Bushmen, hunter gatherer people

01:52:00.564 --> 01:52:04.724
there, and all that they taught me, and
mentored me in, and all that I learned.

01:52:04.974 --> 01:52:06.234
Come on that adventure with me.

01:52:06.259 --> 01:52:07.879
Craig Foster: That's the
ultimate suffering is when

01:52:07.879 --> 01:52:09.319
that, that loss of belonging.

01:52:10.039 --> 01:52:11.149
I don't think there's belonging.

01:52:11.359 --> 01:52:11.569
Right.

01:52:11.569 --> 01:52:15.519
The greatest suffering because a
social animal, a tribal creature like

01:52:15.519 --> 01:52:19.629
ours, the scariest, most terrifying
thing has been ousted in being alone.

01:52:20.139 --> 01:52:21.549
That's the worst punishment.

01:52:21.819 --> 01:52:26.029
And that's the punishment now that
we've thought it upon ourselves.

01:52:26.029 --> 01:52:32.629
We are, you know, we out of the cycle
of all these other divine beings that

01:52:32.629 --> 01:52:34.939
we've lived with from the beginning.

01:52:35.969 --> 01:52:38.579
And it's a, it's a very, very painful

01:52:43.289 --> 01:52:43.619
George Bumann: greed.

01:52:43.624 --> 01:52:48.959
Doesn't make you a good neighbor
or friend or family member.

01:52:49.379 --> 01:52:52.649
We could replace the, the word money,
and we probably should with greed.

01:52:53.789 --> 01:52:54.284
How much do we need?

01:52:54.284 --> 01:52:54.839
And it could be greed for

01:52:54.839 --> 01:52:55.499
Rupert Isaacson: anything, right?

01:52:55.499 --> 01:52:59.069
Could be greed for other people's
energy, other people's attention,

01:52:59.069 --> 01:53:02.909
George Bumann: attention, food,
certain type of clothing, pick

01:53:02.909 --> 01:53:03.689
Rupert Isaacson: validation.

01:53:04.259 --> 01:53:04.499
George Bumann: Mm-hmm.

01:53:05.369 --> 01:53:06.269
Prestige.

01:53:06.779 --> 01:53:07.319
Prestige

01:53:09.809 --> 01:53:11.549
and prestige.

01:53:12.389 --> 01:53:13.799
In our wild condition.

01:53:13.799 --> 01:53:18.329
I think you, you two have
experienced it firsthand.

01:53:18.329 --> 01:53:23.849
That, that, that there is a
continual check on that sort of

01:53:23.849 --> 01:53:25.859
stuff for the good of the group.

01:53:26.129 --> 01:53:31.859
We don't depend on the group in the way
the wolves do here in Yellowstone that

01:53:31.859 --> 01:53:34.169
I watch, and when there's a conflict,

01:53:36.359 --> 01:53:40.499
they bite that yearling and pin
it to the ground and then move on.

01:53:41.069 --> 01:53:42.029
Everybody moves on.

01:53:42.059 --> 01:53:42.569
It's done.

01:53:42.569 --> 01:53:42.989
It's over.

01:53:42.989 --> 01:53:45.689
The point was made, you
know, Ecker totally right.

01:53:45.749 --> 01:53:47.399
Writes about it in the form of ducks.

01:53:47.429 --> 01:53:50.849
You know, ducks have a squabble on a
palm, and, but then after that they,

01:53:51.209 --> 01:53:56.579
they go on, they, they aren't spinning
in, in the pond thinking, why the

01:53:56.579 --> 01:53:57.869
hell did that son of a bitch do that?

01:53:57.869 --> 01:53:58.919
I can't believe he did that.

01:53:58.919 --> 01:54:03.959
You know, this, this is the, this is
the, the mine spinning of a caged animal.

01:54:06.839 --> 01:54:11.399
We put ourselves in that mine
cage where we do that stuff.

01:54:12.929 --> 01:54:15.869
And that's not how nature works.

01:54:17.519 --> 01:54:24.959
Nature has, its off ramps to tension
in a group has, its off ramps to,

01:54:25.439 --> 01:54:32.399
to greed and jealousy and, you know,
the, the desire to hoard things.

01:54:32.594 --> 01:54:37.849
It, it just especially if you're a social
animal, you there is not room for you.

01:54:38.374 --> 01:54:43.384
To do things your way all the
time, exactly the way you want.

01:54:45.634 --> 01:54:51.964
If you do, you die or you're ex,
you know, you're excommunicated,

01:54:51.964 --> 01:54:54.574
you're, you're ousted from your group.

01:54:56.104 --> 01:55:02.074
If the species behaves that way
in its broader community, it dies.

01:55:02.974 --> 01:55:04.504
And right now that's what we're doing.

01:55:04.894 --> 01:55:09.844
We are behaving as if our
agenda is all that matters.

01:55:11.944 --> 01:55:14.734
And this comes with a, a rub.

01:55:15.064 --> 01:55:18.574
It's a, it might in our case
for most people, because of that

01:55:18.574 --> 01:55:25.354
comfort, Craig refers to that comfort
that rub is, is not felt as much.

01:55:25.354 --> 01:55:28.414
But spring's coming a little
earlier here to Yellowstone country.

01:55:28.864 --> 01:55:29.104
Yeah.

01:55:29.104 --> 01:55:34.114
Our tanager, Western Tanager just
showed up and they're two weeks late.

01:55:34.894 --> 01:55:38.314
Why was there just a weather system?

01:55:39.004 --> 01:55:42.154
But is that weather system
something that's been driven

01:55:42.154 --> 01:55:43.624
by the warming of the climate?

01:55:43.624 --> 01:55:47.614
Is there something happening in Costa
Rica where they winter that's prevented

01:55:47.614 --> 01:55:52.624
them from having the resources to come
back to North America as they always do?

01:55:52.834 --> 01:56:00.784
Usually in the mid to third week
of May, this rub is, it's building.

01:56:01.984 --> 01:56:06.214
And before long, the, the comfort
walls that we've built around

01:56:06.214 --> 01:56:11.314
ourselves, they already aren't enough
to keep the impacts from being felt.

01:56:11.314 --> 01:56:17.704
But unless we, we begin to know
and to feel and to love better

01:56:18.754 --> 01:56:25.594
on a daily basis as part of our
typical at Mo the ship's going down.

01:56:26.584 --> 01:56:29.074
And that's a very interesting,
pessimistic way to look at it.

01:56:29.074 --> 01:56:29.434
We're saying

01:56:29.434 --> 01:56:31.924
Rupert Isaacson: that, you know,
they're building, we like more Dubais.

01:56:33.094 --> 01:56:34.174
Have you ever been to Dubai?

01:56:34.294 --> 01:56:35.674
I I don't want to go to Dubai.

01:56:35.734 --> 01:56:39.764
You know, I suspect eventually
I'll find myself there somehow, you

01:56:39.764 --> 01:56:41.954
know, for some reason terrifies me.

01:56:42.524 --> 01:56:46.994
This idea that you can build these things
in places where people are not supposed

01:56:46.994 --> 01:56:50.804
to live like that in these ways and just
say, no, you know, we can just create

01:56:52.694 --> 01:56:55.364
all this artificiality for comfort.

01:56:55.814 --> 01:56:57.944
I, but I think you put
your, your finger on it.

01:56:57.944 --> 01:56:59.204
We talked, we said prestige.

01:56:59.204 --> 01:57:03.224
It's, it's this desire for
prestige where it goes wrong, but

01:57:03.224 --> 01:57:04.334
we're told that's what we needed.

01:57:04.334 --> 01:57:07.094
I mean, when I, I was at school
in that same school that, that,

01:57:07.139 --> 01:57:09.824
that had the chapel that said,
God is love and love is God.

01:57:10.484 --> 01:57:13.994
We were also told you must be
in competition with each other.

01:57:14.624 --> 01:57:16.154
It was instilled into us.

01:57:16.154 --> 01:57:19.934
I know the school you went to, I know you
went to Bishops in South in Cape Town.

01:57:20.214 --> 01:57:23.224
My cousin Simon went there and
Craig, I know they, they would've

01:57:23.224 --> 01:57:24.964
told you the same thing, you know?

01:57:25.064 --> 01:57:25.754
And I.

01:57:28.064 --> 01:57:32.174
The sports we played, the way we
interacted with each other, the bullying

01:57:32.174 --> 01:57:35.444
that went on psychologically and
physically, it was all about prestige.

01:57:36.494 --> 01:57:43.034
And, but everyone in any level of our
society's experiencing that at any time.

01:57:44.684 --> 01:57:47.504
Both of you though, have
said, and I think this is

01:57:51.584 --> 01:57:56.324
what sometimes gets forgotten in
conversations like this, so I, I wrote

01:57:56.654 --> 01:58:00.914
this word from both of you, which I've
heard you say several times in this

01:58:00.914 --> 01:58:05.594
conversation and in other conversations,
and I think it's, it's the way out.

01:58:05.594 --> 01:58:06.494
You talked about that.

01:58:06.794 --> 01:58:07.334
It's a brilliant thing.

01:58:07.334 --> 01:58:11.264
You talked about nature has, its
off-ramps, George, brilliant.

01:58:11.504 --> 01:58:12.794
To the, to the negative.

01:58:14.924 --> 01:58:16.454
Where do those off-ramps start?

01:58:16.934 --> 01:58:18.044
Where does the healing start?

01:58:18.104 --> 01:58:21.194
Where does the conflict resolution start?

01:58:21.284 --> 01:58:23.174
I think you've both made the point.

01:58:24.134 --> 01:58:27.194
I've drawn a box around this
word and the word is notice

01:58:29.589 --> 01:58:37.214
you, you, the moment you start to notice
nature, you're outside of yourself.

01:58:37.214 --> 01:58:38.504
You have perspective of yourself.

01:58:38.504 --> 01:58:39.524
Prestige falls away.

01:58:41.084 --> 01:58:46.634
It's the immediate antidote, the immediate
panacea, even when it's worrying,

01:58:46.634 --> 01:58:48.164
as you say, why the tanana is laid.

01:58:49.154 --> 01:58:51.824
I talked about that
hunting story in that same.

01:58:53.489 --> 01:58:57.449
Three days of hunting where I was
noticing the megaliths and the human

01:58:57.449 --> 01:59:01.079
story and the human wolf pack that we
were, and then now the wolf's coming back.

01:59:01.829 --> 01:59:08.669
There were these yellow butterflies
appearing in February in the clearings

01:59:08.669 --> 01:59:11.609
of the woods that should not be there
in Northern Germany in February.

01:59:13.589 --> 01:59:19.289
And as we paused, letting the horses
breathe and letting the hounds cool

01:59:19.289 --> 01:59:23.399
off and have water 'cause it was
un unseasonably, unseasonably warm,

01:59:25.709 --> 01:59:30.689
beautiful, beautiful yellow butterflies
drifting through the clearing,

01:59:32.969 --> 01:59:33.929
but they shouldn't be there.

01:59:35.339 --> 01:59:37.499
But the very noticing of them

01:59:39.749 --> 01:59:43.499
assuaged my pain of
worrying about climate.

01:59:43.679 --> 01:59:47.249
Okay, I'm worried about it's getting
warmer, but these butterflies are very

01:59:47.249 --> 01:59:53.699
beautiful and the planet will be fine
even if we make it not fine for ourselves.

01:59:54.419 --> 01:59:59.189
It will, but, but that would be sad
because as you, so as you say with

01:59:59.189 --> 02:00:02.189
creatures of love, but this word notice,
notice, notice it seems that what you

02:00:02.189 --> 02:00:06.299
do is you notice things and you show
other people how to notice things.

02:00:07.109 --> 02:00:12.239
And in your showing of other people how
to notice things, you help them to rewild.

02:00:12.299 --> 02:00:14.399
And if you help 'em to
rewild, you help 'em to heal.

02:00:17.204 --> 02:00:20.954
Is noticing really where it needs,
where it needs to start for everyone.

02:00:20.954 --> 02:00:22.094
That simple act,

02:00:24.864 --> 02:00:30.504
Craig Foster: Noticing, I think is
the fundamental essence of tracking.

02:00:31.854 --> 02:00:36.024
High level noticing and tracking
is the oldest language on earth.

02:00:36.534 --> 02:00:42.294
Tracking is our way of connecting
and belonging and feeling part

02:00:42.294 --> 02:00:44.034
of this incredible ecosystem.

02:00:44.544 --> 02:00:45.144
So you've hit it.

02:00:45.144 --> 02:00:45.864
Absolutely.

02:00:46.284 --> 02:00:47.274
You know, spot on.

02:00:47.364 --> 02:00:56.124
Noticing at a high level and taking notice
is critical for this, this conversation

02:00:56.124 --> 02:01:00.264
and this changing of the story that
will, you know, determine our future.

02:01:03.174 --> 02:01:03.654
George Bumann: George,

02:01:06.324 --> 02:01:07.134
I concur.

02:01:08.244 --> 02:01:16.524
You know, just by noticing your
internal chemistry is already shifting.

02:01:18.474 --> 02:01:21.144
Did you notice what so and
so did when you said that?

02:01:24.474 --> 02:01:27.414
It's sometimes a hard pill to
swallow, but it's a beautiful gift

02:01:28.794 --> 02:01:28.944
Rupert Isaacson: and

02:01:28.944 --> 02:01:29.154
George Bumann: out of

02:01:29.154 --> 02:01:30.114
Rupert Isaacson: those gifts Right?

02:01:30.114 --> 02:01:31.044
We have to notice each other too.

02:01:31.104 --> 02:01:31.734
It's so true.

02:01:32.184 --> 02:01:32.394
Yeah.

02:01:32.424 --> 02:01:33.144
'cause we are nature.

02:01:33.144 --> 02:01:35.124
It's not just noticing
the nature around us,

02:01:35.694 --> 02:01:36.024
George Bumann: right?

02:01:36.804 --> 02:01:37.644
It's all the same.

02:01:37.764 --> 02:01:38.424
It's all one.

02:01:39.804 --> 02:01:40.224
Rupert Isaacson: Oh my God.

02:01:40.224 --> 02:01:40.644
George Bumann: That's a.

02:01:41.649 --> 02:01:48.399
As a good friend said he had a, a
tracking mentor who did a, spent

02:01:48.399 --> 02:01:53.719
his career tracking mostly illegal
immigrants on borders, but a lot of

02:01:53.779 --> 02:01:56.689
lost individuals and, and criminals.

02:01:56.719 --> 02:02:02.689
And it just very high level tracking in
the context of the non survival world.

02:02:03.469 --> 02:02:11.889
But in his, his little note to, to my
friend in the book he'd given him, he said

02:02:11.889 --> 02:02:18.999
that tracker will never be limited by what
can be found on the ground or in nature.

02:02:19.059 --> 02:02:21.579
It'll only be limited by
the mind of the tracker.

02:02:24.759 --> 02:02:25.239
Craig Foster: Beautiful.

02:02:26.199 --> 02:02:26.559
George Bumann: Yeah.

02:02:28.359 --> 02:02:29.169
It's there.

02:02:29.889 --> 02:02:36.674
Every single step of the way is
there, if we are of the mindset to

02:02:37.929 --> 02:02:44.409
search for it and to see it and to
understand what that means for us

02:02:47.109 --> 02:02:53.679
Rupert Isaacson: and in order to notice
each other in this way so that we can

02:02:55.809 --> 02:02:59.949
not make each other and
therefore the planet suffer

02:03:02.109 --> 02:03:05.259
and ourselves, do we again?

02:03:05.289 --> 02:03:08.679
Does it start though with noticing
what is outside of ourselves?

02:03:09.834 --> 02:03:16.044
Because if we can do that, if we can track
what is outside of us in nature, what

02:03:16.044 --> 02:03:17.514
appears to be outside of us in nature,

02:03:19.524 --> 02:03:23.154
is that our first step to being
able to notice the effect of what

02:03:23.154 --> 02:03:30.774
I said on my wife or the effect
of what I said on my kid, or the

02:03:30.774 --> 02:03:33.954
effect of my mood today on my horse.

02:03:36.624 --> 02:03:44.514
Does it start with noticing the cloud,
with noticing the bit of grass around

02:03:44.514 --> 02:03:47.364
the tree that's growing out of the
sidewalk of the house that you live

02:03:47.364 --> 02:03:52.284
on, where the dog's poop, but is
there life in there and what life is

02:03:52.284 --> 02:03:53.544
there and what life is in that tree?

02:03:53.874 --> 02:03:54.534
What tree is it?

02:03:56.784 --> 02:04:02.454
Does it still always, I I kind of think
it does have to be that, that there

02:04:02.454 --> 02:04:07.494
has to be that external tracking that
allows the internal tracking to begin.

02:04:07.494 --> 02:04:07.674
And

02:04:10.294 --> 02:04:12.664
I think you guys help people with that.

02:04:13.714 --> 02:04:15.154
I think you,

02:04:17.584 --> 02:04:18.904
I think you assuage suffering.

02:04:19.594 --> 02:04:25.024
You know, you, you, you studies are now
being done on the effect on the mind

02:04:25.024 --> 02:04:29.554
and the endocrine system and the human
on, say, watching nature documentaries

02:04:30.994 --> 02:04:32.704
and it's very, very good for us.

02:04:33.739 --> 02:04:34.714
It is gotta be done.

02:04:34.894 --> 02:04:38.554
Someone's gotta go out there, film
that thing and bring it in and show it.

02:04:39.424 --> 02:04:43.384
If we're not in it, George, you know,
when you, you are creating the art that

02:04:43.384 --> 02:04:45.664
you create and bringing the stories
that you create, someone's actually,

02:04:45.664 --> 02:04:49.234
you actually gotta go out there and
do that, create that piece of art.

02:04:50.164 --> 02:04:52.054
Even if it's a image of that art,

02:04:56.284 --> 02:05:00.424
it assuages suffering 'cause you bring
the nature in, but you had to go out

02:05:00.424 --> 02:05:02.794
and notice it first in order to do that.

02:05:05.014 --> 02:05:12.694
There's something I'd like to ask you
as we sort of approach probably towards

02:05:12.694 --> 02:05:14.284
the conclusion of, of where we are.

02:05:14.974 --> 02:05:18.664
This conversation, we've
talked about deep, wild places.

02:05:20.394 --> 02:05:27.234
The kelp forest, even though it's very,
very close to Cape Town, is a deeply

02:05:27.234 --> 02:05:30.324
wild, seemingly quite intact ecosystem.

02:05:30.714 --> 02:05:32.364
Yellowstone National Park, the same.

02:05:33.834 --> 02:05:37.584
And these forests in Germany where I
live, even though they're work forests,

02:05:37.584 --> 02:05:42.594
they still maintain an awful lot of life
and I'm lucky to spend time in them.

02:05:43.884 --> 02:05:49.734
Do you have places that, you know,
what are your favorite places?

02:05:50.454 --> 02:05:54.114
Maybe two or three that you can
tell listeners that are actually

02:05:54.174 --> 02:05:56.904
in or really, really close to.

02:05:57.729 --> 02:06:06.549
Really shit environments that we don't
have to go as far as the other, we don't

02:06:06.549 --> 02:06:08.259
have to get on and play the Cape Town.

02:06:12.159 --> 02:06:17.109
Think of cities that, you
know, that are kind of crap

02:06:19.359 --> 02:06:23.139
and places that you found
in or close to them.

02:06:26.469 --> 02:06:28.419
Not 3000 miles off the coast of Africa.

02:06:35.349 --> 02:06:40.549
Craig Foster: What comes to mind was
when I did this book to her and, and

02:06:41.539 --> 02:06:47.059
had such a great time meeting George
and some other special people I was in

02:06:47.059 --> 02:06:55.519
this place near Miami doing one of these
talks, and I was, it was not easy for

02:06:55.519 --> 02:07:00.889
me to be on a book tour and to be in
airplanes and traveling and big cities

02:07:00.889 --> 02:07:05.509
and, you know, press and it's not, it's
not, doesn't come naturally to me at all.

02:07:06.199 --> 02:07:10.999
And I remember walking along this
road and it was, it was, it wasn't

02:07:10.999 --> 02:07:15.679
that far from Miami and there
were, it was right near where the.

02:07:15.759 --> 02:07:21.809
These massive airplanes were taking off
and I managed to get off this sort of

02:07:21.809 --> 02:07:30.209
highway, and the ocean was coming into
this shallow area and the tide was coming

02:07:30.209 --> 02:07:33.869
up, and I just needed some nature time.

02:07:33.899 --> 02:07:36.239
And I lay in this very shallow water.

02:07:37.169 --> 02:07:41.399
And every now and again, this massive
airplane would come over my head and the

02:07:41.399 --> 02:07:43.439
whole ground and everything would shake.

02:07:44.069 --> 02:07:45.029
And it was incredible.

02:07:45.029 --> 02:07:50.159
The animals there were quite used to
it, and they didn't even bat an eyelid.

02:07:51.209 --> 02:07:55.619
And I found these beautiful,
beautiful crustacean, these

02:07:55.619 --> 02:07:58.439
shrimps living in beer bottles.

02:07:59.759 --> 02:08:02.369
And they, it was like a
perfect home for them.

02:08:03.209 --> 02:08:06.449
And it was just, and then there
were these fish that came in, and

02:08:06.449 --> 02:08:10.809
then I noticed these incredible
what looked like decorator crabs.

02:08:10.809 --> 02:08:11.559
And then were Muller.

02:08:11.559 --> 02:08:15.669
I was just lying still in this very
shallow, very warm water, these

02:08:15.669 --> 02:08:17.829
massive airplanes coming over.

02:08:18.099 --> 02:08:23.539
And yet these animals were there living
in these beer bottles and this life I

02:08:23.539 --> 02:08:29.029
saw some extraordinary creatures and
it was just like almost more powerful.

02:08:29.209 --> 02:08:33.079
So it, it's a funny thing when
you find these creatures in

02:08:33.079 --> 02:08:34.639
these funny little places.

02:08:35.509 --> 02:08:42.769
In these areas where there's so much
human dominance, it can be very powerful

02:08:42.769 --> 02:08:46.339
and emotional and you think this is
a miracle how these things, and they

02:08:46.339 --> 02:08:48.199
were horseshoe crabs there as well.

02:08:48.949 --> 02:08:52.489
I saw these horseshoe crabs,
like in these ancient creatures

02:08:52.489 --> 02:08:54.844
moving, but I'm keeping dead still.

02:08:55.104 --> 02:09:00.469
So everything that sort of, you know,
was, was okay with me being in that space.

02:09:00.919 --> 02:09:03.469
And then every now and again, this
airplane would come over and the

02:09:03.469 --> 02:09:05.659
whole, everything would just shake.

02:09:06.169 --> 02:09:11.009
And it was I think that the, you
can find these little pockets of

02:09:11.009 --> 02:09:13.769
life and it very, very powerful.

02:09:14.389 --> 02:09:18.349
More, more surprising than,
you know, finding something

02:09:18.349 --> 02:09:19.669
in the middle of a wild place.

02:09:19.669 --> 02:09:21.409
In a very wild place in many ways.

02:09:23.149 --> 02:09:23.479
George Bumann: Yeah,

02:09:26.899 --> 02:09:27.499
the dump

02:09:28.579 --> 02:09:28.939
Rupert Isaacson: go on.

02:09:30.859 --> 02:09:33.919
George Bumann: I spend more time at
the dump probably observing ravens

02:09:33.919 --> 02:09:37.039
than sometimes than I do anywhere else.

02:09:38.899 --> 02:09:39.289
Right?

02:09:39.289 --> 02:09:47.269
You so social of a creature and so
many nuances to their behaviors and

02:09:47.269 --> 02:09:54.649
their calls and their relationship
to us concentrated in that one spot.

02:09:55.189 --> 02:10:00.859
That is just the last place most people
would ever wanna spend any amount of time.

02:10:00.859 --> 02:10:02.659
Dump your trash and get
the hell outta there.

02:10:03.779 --> 02:10:09.154
And the dump is, you know, I
almost lamented a little bit when

02:10:09.154 --> 02:10:12.964
they started putting, they put in
a compactor unit, so not all the

02:10:12.964 --> 02:10:15.154
trash was in these open dumpsters.

02:10:16.654 --> 02:10:18.934
'cause it offered a lot more food
and there were a lot more ravens.

02:10:18.934 --> 02:10:20.884
And now it's, it's more sparse.

02:10:20.884 --> 02:10:21.214
But

02:10:23.229 --> 02:10:29.854
that gift of seeing an animal make
its way in a landscape that we've

02:10:30.244 --> 02:10:37.084
engineered around our preferences
and what suits us and they all this,

02:10:37.084 --> 02:10:41.074
it's just the most tragic thing
for these creatures to be referred

02:10:41.074 --> 02:10:43.564
to as vermin or dumpster chickens.

02:10:43.984 --> 02:10:49.594
I heard ravens was called to before, you
know, and they're like, yeah, but is this

02:10:49.594 --> 02:10:55.084
not amazing that this creature that we
thought lived on the edge of this most

02:10:55.264 --> 02:11:01.894
amazing wilderness and none of 'em are
living purely off the wilderness land.

02:11:02.164 --> 02:11:10.354
They're flying 20, 30 miles daily, one way
to take advantage of what we throw away.

02:11:10.924 --> 02:11:11.464
Mm.

02:11:12.484 --> 02:11:16.384
And then they fly that 20, 30 miles
home to defend their territory

02:11:16.384 --> 02:11:18.244
until the next day when they fly.

02:11:18.244 --> 02:11:23.374
And this idea that this bird I'm
seeing right here on the edge of the

02:11:23.374 --> 02:11:29.674
dumpster watching me get rid of my
recycling and my refuse has commuted

02:11:29.674 --> 02:11:32.164
here to be in this spot right now.

02:11:32.749 --> 02:11:39.199
It has a story, it has a family, it
has, gosh, these life experiences

02:11:39.199 --> 02:11:41.059
that I can't possibly imagine.

02:11:41.539 --> 02:11:45.649
And yet we get to interface a little
bit right here at the dump for a few

02:11:45.649 --> 02:11:51.649
minutes and yeah, I'll just love that
idea of these, these, these strings

02:11:51.649 --> 02:11:57.949
of, of connectivity to yes, some
of these pristine places, but also

02:11:57.949 --> 02:11:59.629
some of these most unlikely places.

02:11:59.629 --> 02:12:02.629
And it takes all of it for this to exist.

02:12:02.869 --> 02:12:04.729
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I think the
point that you're both making there

02:12:04.729 --> 02:12:10.219
is that what reminds us the noticing,
what reminds us of our connection with

02:12:10.219 --> 02:12:15.529
nature is when we see nature interact
with us, you know, it, you can go to

02:12:15.529 --> 02:12:18.109
Yellowstone and think, well, I'm kind
of looking at a living museum here, or

02:12:18.109 --> 02:12:20.809
the Serengeti, but I'm not part of this.

02:12:20.899 --> 02:12:22.759
You know, I've flown here in
a plane, I've gone on safari.

02:12:23.989 --> 02:12:27.739
But I think when you go to these
liminal places, the edges of cities,

02:12:27.739 --> 02:12:31.639
the edges of industrial complexes, and
you see the coyote hunting, you know,

02:12:31.699 --> 02:12:39.019
along the edge of the polluted, swampy
thing in New Jersey, or, you know, as

02:12:39.019 --> 02:12:44.479
you come into Newark Airport, and it's
often those places, transportation

02:12:44.479 --> 02:12:47.419
hubs, industrial places where
people don't actually want to live.

02:12:48.079 --> 02:12:49.819
That's 'cause where the animals
come in and live, isn't it?

02:12:50.509 --> 02:12:51.979
I would think about being in airplanes.

02:12:51.979 --> 02:12:55.489
I was in, I flew to London recently
and we're coming down over it.

02:12:55.579 --> 02:12:57.559
We're coming down and
I'm looking at London.

02:12:57.559 --> 02:13:00.799
I'm looking at just how many big
green spaces there are in that city.

02:13:01.309 --> 02:13:01.849
Huge.

02:13:02.689 --> 02:13:07.639
And the one I know best is Hamstead
Heath, which is very central.

02:13:07.639 --> 02:13:15.619
And it's about a thousand acres of ancient
woodland, huge oaks that are in the upper,

02:13:15.799 --> 02:13:19.189
you know, hundreds of years old, some
of them pushing a thousand years old.

02:13:20.029 --> 02:13:26.419
And then the plane flew to go into Heath
throat on the west side, but had gone

02:13:26.419 --> 02:13:32.719
over the east side, which is the docks
and the old, you know, industrial areas.

02:13:32.959 --> 02:13:37.909
And there's the Lee Valley coming
down and the River Lee, all

02:13:37.909 --> 02:13:39.259
these beautiful wetlands on it.

02:13:39.409 --> 02:13:42.529
They've reintroduced beavers
there to control flooding

02:13:42.529 --> 02:13:43.549
because of climate change.

02:13:44.419 --> 02:13:47.719
And then the plane swung to the west.

02:13:47.989 --> 02:13:51.559
And I looked down, I said, oh, that's
Richmond Park and Bushy Park, these

02:13:51.559 --> 02:13:56.329
old hunting forests that were there
because there were huge populations

02:13:56.329 --> 02:13:58.639
of Red Deer, which are still there.

02:13:58.969 --> 02:14:04.519
And I looked down and I saw this big
herd of Red Deer just moving across

02:14:05.689 --> 02:14:10.609
the, this, this big open Glade,
but all the buildings, you know,

02:14:11.059 --> 02:14:12.559
off over there and Sunrise rising.

02:14:12.889 --> 02:14:14.869
Yeah, you can, you can.

02:14:16.129 --> 02:14:20.089
Access any of those green
spaces, those natural spaces.

02:14:20.239 --> 02:14:25.219
And as you say, you know, fro from living
in the middle of the city, and as you

02:14:25.219 --> 02:14:35.659
say, these interactions, the, these
snails in the bottles and the crabs

02:14:35.779 --> 02:14:40.549
and the fish with a plane coming over,
or the dump where you actually get to

02:14:40.549 --> 02:14:45.679
interact with a raven because you're both
there, more or less for the same reason.

02:14:46.039 --> 02:14:49.699
And where we think when we're destroying
nature, these industrial sites, these

02:14:49.699 --> 02:14:52.819
liminal sites, often that seems to be
where nature finds its first foothold.

02:14:53.809 --> 02:14:59.089
Is it, is it the, is, is it the
noticing of, of that in those places

02:14:59.089 --> 02:15:03.799
that actually has the most power for us
because it serves as a metaphor for that.

02:15:03.799 --> 02:15:03.949
Yeah.

02:15:03.949 --> 02:15:04.879
We can rewild

02:15:07.009 --> 02:15:13.609
if it's, if it's always got to be
Yellowstone or Mongolia, well, we might

02:15:13.609 --> 02:15:15.229
see that as very separate from ourselves.

02:15:18.769 --> 02:15:23.599
George Bumann: What I, I see them, I
see them as infinitely more important

02:15:23.599 --> 02:15:31.609
than a Yellowstone and the Kalahari
and the Schatz followed, you know,

02:15:31.729 --> 02:15:34.429
kelp forest in the societal sense.

02:15:34.699 --> 02:15:35.089
Yeah.

02:15:35.389 --> 02:15:39.799
To me that you cannot
sensitize yourself to.

02:15:40.399 --> 02:15:43.159
Let's say you do go to one of
those places on a bucket list trip,

02:15:44.629 --> 02:15:50.269
you'll miss so much if you've not
been doing your homework at home

02:15:50.269 --> 02:15:50.689
locally.

02:15:51.049 --> 02:15:51.694
Mm, mm-hmm.

02:15:52.954 --> 02:15:53.174
George Bumann: Yep.

02:15:53.294 --> 02:15:54.889
I had a friend who went to Zambia.

02:15:55.069 --> 02:15:55.909
She'd never been there.

02:15:55.999 --> 02:15:57.169
Total bucket list trip.

02:15:57.589 --> 02:16:00.649
Wanted to see painted
dogs so badly it hurt.

02:16:01.549 --> 02:16:04.429
And they went day after day and
couldn't find any, couldn't find any.

02:16:04.429 --> 02:16:06.889
They're going along and they're
in the Landy, you know, and the

02:16:06.889 --> 02:16:10.999
guide's in the front in the seat, and
she's in the, like toward the back.

02:16:10.999 --> 02:16:14.419
She says, is there,
could they be over there?

02:16:15.409 --> 02:16:18.289
And the guy turns and looks at
her and then he looks off and

02:16:18.679 --> 02:16:19.849
they are, they're over there.

02:16:20.149 --> 02:16:22.039
You know, it looks back
at, how did you know that?

02:16:22.789 --> 02:16:24.949
Well, I don't, I don't know.

02:16:24.949 --> 02:16:29.209
But those birds over there were kind
of doing what the birds in my yard do.

02:16:29.209 --> 02:16:30.649
When the neighbor's dog's out,

02:16:33.409 --> 02:16:35.629
these lessons transfer.

02:16:35.689 --> 02:16:43.429
And if you're already practiced in your
own local language arts version of, of

02:16:43.429 --> 02:16:51.589
nature's conversations, the ability to
notice and discover goes way, way up.

02:16:52.849 --> 02:16:57.049
So as nice as it is to go to
Yellowstone and see a wolf or

02:16:57.049 --> 02:17:03.139
something like that, actually I get
as excited or more excited when I see.

02:17:04.264 --> 02:17:06.574
The equivalent in a suburb, you know?

02:17:06.634 --> 02:17:06.694
Yeah.

02:17:06.694 --> 02:17:11.914
Visiting my, my brother-in-law, and
there's just this for me, I, I can't

02:17:11.914 --> 02:17:16.414
imagine living there is housing
development and tract after tract of

02:17:16.414 --> 02:17:19.714
the same house built over and over
on these loops and, you know, there's

02:17:19.714 --> 02:17:22.864
a seven, you know, it's called Seven
Trails and there's not a single

02:17:22.864 --> 02:17:24.094
trail among any of them, you know?

02:17:24.454 --> 02:17:24.994
Well, they usually,

02:17:25.144 --> 02:17:28.834
Rupert Isaacson: they usually, I've
noticed in America name those housing

02:17:28.834 --> 02:17:32.164
develops after the thing that they
destroyed to make it like Absolutely.

02:17:32.164 --> 02:17:32.734
Fox crossing.

02:17:32.824 --> 02:17:33.424
Absolutely.

02:17:33.634 --> 02:17:36.424
It's like the fox that used to cross
here before we built this thing.

02:17:37.894 --> 02:17:38.614
George Bumann: Totally.

02:17:38.914 --> 02:17:41.404
It's so bad and it's so true.

02:17:43.024 --> 02:17:47.254
But even in the context of that, I
could know that that woman who's walking

02:17:47.254 --> 02:17:51.094
her dog is coming before she ever gets
there through what the birds are doing

02:17:51.094 --> 02:17:53.134
between the houses and that one feeder.

02:17:53.494 --> 02:17:55.234
I know that there's a
Cooper's Hawk coming.

02:17:55.564 --> 02:17:55.654
Mm-hmm.

02:17:55.654 --> 02:18:00.424
You know, probably from that
direction, you cannot get what

02:18:00.424 --> 02:18:02.134
there is to receive from nature.

02:18:02.134 --> 02:18:08.134
If you're not paying attention to
what's closest to you on a daily basis.

02:18:08.134 --> 02:18:12.544
Those animals in your neighborhood
are your very best teachers, your

02:18:12.544 --> 02:18:15.004
best guides, your best mentors.

02:18:17.314 --> 02:18:17.614
I don't know.

02:18:17.614 --> 02:18:18.214
How do you feel

02:18:18.664 --> 02:18:19.444
Craig Foster: you'll that Craig?

02:18:21.334 --> 02:18:22.234
Oh, absolutely.

02:18:22.324 --> 02:18:24.384
I mean, I think you
said it so beautifully.

02:18:24.504 --> 02:18:28.374
They are, these creatures are
really, I mean, certainly for

02:18:28.374 --> 02:18:30.864
me, my, my finest teachers.

02:18:31.749 --> 02:18:34.329
Especially for me, the,
the underwater creatures.

02:18:34.629 --> 02:18:37.929
But it's a place that I
do, I do visit every day.

02:18:38.029 --> 02:18:42.469
But it's, it's the daily
interaction and that familiarity

02:18:42.469 --> 02:18:46.219
with the, the wild language that
is actually critic wild language.

02:18:46.969 --> 02:18:52.259
Ooh, much better to go to a local
place that's very close that has

02:18:52.259 --> 02:18:55.559
just a few animals than go to
these bucket list places where

02:18:56.159 --> 02:18:58.559
it's just a passing, passing cloud.

02:19:00.689 --> 02:19:04.109
Rupert Isaacson: Alright, so what
are we gonna conclude this with?

02:19:04.109 --> 02:19:06.089
I am going to, I'll tell
you where I'm gonna go.

02:19:06.479 --> 02:19:08.129
I'm gonna go do, I'm gonna go notice.

02:19:08.699 --> 02:19:14.759
So I need to take my dog Axel, one
of my two dogs, my high maintenance

02:19:15.779 --> 02:19:19.379
Doberman, who we rescued in Texas.

02:19:19.379 --> 02:19:25.289
He'd spend his first two years in a cage
and is a neurotic to all sorts of degrees.

02:19:25.449 --> 02:19:26.529
But very sweet.

02:19:26.829 --> 02:19:30.459
And I live in fear of his bottom
because if you don't empty it

02:19:30.879 --> 02:19:31.929
this is a relationship with that.

02:19:31.929 --> 02:19:35.529
If you don't make sure to empty
that bottom before eight o'clock,

02:19:35.529 --> 02:19:37.929
at nine o'clock at night,
it's going to empty itself.

02:19:38.449 --> 02:19:40.279
Not where you want termed it.

02:19:40.399 --> 02:19:43.919
And we actually take bets, my son
and I how many poos it will be.

02:19:44.759 --> 02:19:45.539
On a given night.

02:19:45.939 --> 02:19:48.369
And it will depend on how much
horse poop has been eaten earlier

02:19:48.369 --> 02:19:49.419
in the day and such and such.

02:19:49.419 --> 02:19:52.839
So it can goes by to six, it could
be as little as one, but it's usually

02:19:52.989 --> 02:19:54.069
you're safe with three or four.

02:19:54.759 --> 02:19:59.079
And whoever, whoever bets three or
four first usually will, will win.

02:19:59.079 --> 02:20:01.929
So, you know, it adds a sporting element.

02:20:02.229 --> 02:20:07.539
But what there is down in the al,
which is where I'm the park, I'm going

02:20:07.539 --> 02:20:12.219
to walk him in al is an old German
word for water matter an owl au.

02:20:13.479 --> 02:20:18.069
And you'll often see that alba al, you
know, and that in people's names as well.

02:20:18.489 --> 02:20:21.249
And the ta just means a
valley, like a small valley.

02:20:21.429 --> 02:20:23.829
And that on top is where
that wolf was the other day.

02:20:23.829 --> 02:20:25.359
But it's here, it's in the village.

02:20:25.929 --> 02:20:29.999
And but it's, it's very much
sort of a park, but it's June.

02:20:30.239 --> 02:20:35.319
And I know that if I go down there
now at nine ish now as just as it

02:20:35.319 --> 02:20:38.709
gets dark, the fireflies will be out.

02:20:39.249 --> 02:20:42.069
I'm gonna go and notice the
fireflies first thing I'm

02:20:42.069 --> 02:20:43.239
gonna notice if they're there.

02:20:43.869 --> 02:20:46.689
'cause it's, I haven't
been able to get out.

02:20:46.689 --> 02:20:49.629
And sometimes it's, I
think now is the time.

02:20:49.689 --> 02:20:51.309
Sometimes I hit it just
right, sometimes I don't.

02:20:51.549 --> 02:20:52.419
So are they still there?

02:20:52.419 --> 02:20:56.109
And where are they and are there
more or less than they were?

02:20:56.319 --> 02:20:59.529
And I'm gonna notice how they
make me feel because the fireflies

02:20:59.529 --> 02:21:02.289
always make me feel transported.

02:21:03.499 --> 02:21:03.559
I.

02:21:04.909 --> 02:21:08.839
So that's the noticing in my
hood that I'm gonna do now while

02:21:08.839 --> 02:21:10.159
I go and empty my dog's bottom.

02:21:10.749 --> 02:21:12.219
By the way, you're welcome to lay bets.

02:21:12.609 --> 02:21:13.644
And I'll be a gentleman.

02:21:13.674 --> 02:21:14.904
I won't pick four or three.

02:21:15.414 --> 02:21:16.404
You guys can have that.

02:21:16.554 --> 02:21:19.374
So whoever does that and you
get it right, I owe you a euro.

02:21:19.479 --> 02:21:19.769
Okay?

02:21:20.034 --> 02:21:25.974
So dunno, if you do, you wanna take a
bet on it, George, take, pick a number.

02:21:26.364 --> 02:21:26.814
Boy,

02:21:28.974 --> 02:21:29.874
check in with your gut.

02:21:29.874 --> 02:21:30.294
You're into it.

02:21:30.294 --> 02:21:31.314
Your hunter's trackers.

02:21:31.374 --> 02:21:31.854
Mm-hmm.

02:21:32.124 --> 02:21:35.424
Mind inter I feeling, I'm feeling

02:21:35.604 --> 02:21:38.274
George Bumann: four to five,
but a little closer to four.

02:21:38.394 --> 02:21:38.664
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

02:21:38.664 --> 02:21:39.624
George is four.

02:21:39.954 --> 02:21:43.084
Craig I'll go for two.

02:21:43.474 --> 02:21:44.104
Woo.

02:21:44.134 --> 02:21:46.624
Living dangerously, but
you could well be right.

02:21:47.434 --> 02:21:51.544
A seasoned tracker amongst
us has spoken, so, okay.

02:21:52.054 --> 02:21:52.894
Gives me pause.

02:21:53.644 --> 02:21:55.084
So that means I've gotta
go for three or five.

02:21:55.414 --> 02:21:56.944
George Bumann: Yeah, you
gotta report back now.

02:21:56.974 --> 02:21:58.024
Rupert Isaacson: I,
I'm gonna go for three.

02:21:58.084 --> 02:21:58.444
All right.

02:21:59.074 --> 02:22:00.094
But I will honor the bet.

02:22:00.574 --> 02:22:04.104
Alright, but what, what local
noticing are you gonna do now

02:22:04.104 --> 02:22:05.994
when we close this conversation?

02:22:06.294 --> 02:22:07.254
Craig, where are you gonna go?

02:22:10.194 --> 02:22:13.864
Craig Foster: I go, I, I go to bed
quite early and get up very early.

02:22:15.364 --> 02:22:20.944
I will be going probably into the
water quite early tomorrow morning.

02:22:20.944 --> 02:22:23.734
There's a very interesting big octopus.

02:22:24.469 --> 02:22:29.269
That I is getting quite
comfortable with me and allowed

02:22:29.269 --> 02:22:31.699
me to film it, walking Biped.

02:22:32.329 --> 02:22:32.359
Ooh.

02:22:32.989 --> 02:22:38.429
And also was actually feasting on a small
shark recently, which is very unusual.

02:22:38.999 --> 02:22:39.479
So when you say

02:22:39.509 --> 02:22:42.479
Rupert Isaacson: it allowed you to film
it, walking byed, is that a behavior

02:22:42.479 --> 02:22:44.039
that they're normally very shy about?

02:22:44.069 --> 02:22:45.119
'cause it needs Yeah, well, you

02:22:45.119 --> 02:22:50.379
Craig Foster: have to get very
close and look underneath the web,

02:22:50.889 --> 02:22:54.759
because otherwise you can't see the
arms that have changed into legs.

02:22:55.179 --> 02:23:00.369
So this, it'll only allow
you if it is not threatened.

02:23:00.949 --> 02:23:04.099
So it's got it, you know, they
quickly realize who you are.

02:23:04.099 --> 02:23:07.429
They know you as an individual,
you're not harming them anyway.

02:23:07.429 --> 02:23:11.869
So, it's, it's, and it's a big,
large, quite confident animal.

02:23:11.869 --> 02:23:19.559
So, I'll be going to look for that
wonderful octopus in the morning and

02:23:19.559 --> 02:23:21.809
notice whatever she's got to teach me.

02:23:24.959 --> 02:23:25.409
George,

02:23:25.469 --> 02:23:25.949
Craig Foster: where are you gonna go?

02:23:25.949 --> 02:23:26.189
Sounds

02:23:26.189 --> 02:23:26.669
George Bumann: great.

02:23:28.154 --> 02:23:29.294
Well, I haven't stopped.

02:23:29.384 --> 02:23:32.644
I don't know if you've noticed
my eyes darting, hither and yawn.

02:23:32.644 --> 02:23:36.934
We had an elk walk through and the
mag pies are either, I think they

02:23:36.934 --> 02:23:41.284
may be making a false nest in the
spruce tree right outside the window.

02:23:41.524 --> 02:23:42.844
Rupert Isaacson: Why are
they making a false nest?

02:23:42.844 --> 02:23:43.864
What's a false nest?

02:23:43.964 --> 02:23:45.164
George Bumann: They're tricky buggers.

02:23:45.194 --> 02:23:45.704
They are,

02:23:46.304 --> 02:23:48.134
Rupert Isaacson: but why,
why do they make false nests?

02:23:48.814 --> 02:23:51.004
George Bumann: I think to lead
the nest predators astray.

02:23:51.424 --> 02:23:51.694
Okay.

02:23:51.694 --> 02:23:56.014
They will create multiple nests that
they seem to be active in and yet

02:23:56.014 --> 02:23:58.114
only lay eggs in, in one of them.

02:23:58.114 --> 02:24:01.774
And they actually been known to
move their eggs between nests.

02:24:02.524 --> 02:24:02.584
Wow.

02:24:02.584 --> 02:24:03.064
As well.

02:24:03.064 --> 02:24:06.784
If there's trouble and maybe
just for fun, I don't know.

02:24:06.874 --> 02:24:11.674
No one's interviewed them Mag magpie
to, to see, but they just erupted

02:24:11.674 --> 02:24:15.664
here in a big fit of, of chatter,
which makes me wonder if the raven

02:24:15.664 --> 02:24:18.404
is giving them difficulty again.

02:24:18.974 --> 02:24:21.584
So my dog needs to go out.

02:24:21.584 --> 02:24:26.804
He's been moaning here for the last minute
or two and we may go check the mag pies.

02:24:26.864 --> 02:24:28.964
The one is going into the nest right now.

02:24:29.594 --> 02:24:32.144
I'm curious if the, the ravens are out.

02:24:32.564 --> 02:24:34.784
So many of our adventures start this way.

02:24:34.784 --> 02:24:37.754
We'll be laying in bed and we can
hear something through the window

02:24:37.754 --> 02:24:41.684
and skip breakfast and run out to
see what the heck's going on there.

02:24:42.284 --> 02:24:45.964
And, so I'll, it's midday here in the
United States, so I'll, I'll probably

02:24:45.964 --> 02:24:51.424
go out, might sit down and either on the
porch or in a little patch of cottonwoods,

02:24:51.544 --> 02:24:54.244
literally right off the corner of
the house we call the Tree Palace.

02:24:54.994 --> 02:24:57.964
I've got names for all of the
places that we've given them.

02:24:57.964 --> 02:25:02.594
So, no one else knows these names, but
we know, and immediately in the family

02:25:03.194 --> 02:25:07.859
when someone says the Winnie the Pooh
Forest or the Sitting Rock, or that,

02:25:07.859 --> 02:25:10.544
Rupert Isaacson: that, that is a really,
that that thing of intimacy with the

02:25:10.544 --> 02:25:12.194
landscape where you begin to name it.

02:25:12.824 --> 02:25:13.064
George Bumann: Yeah.

02:25:13.154 --> 02:25:14.654
Rupert Isaacson: Even though,
of course it has its own

02:25:15.074 --> 02:25:16.604
language as independent from us.

02:25:16.604 --> 02:25:21.494
But that's a language of love, isn't
it, when you begin to name certain

02:25:21.494 --> 02:25:24.464
rocks, certain trees, certain, yeah.

02:25:24.944 --> 02:25:25.274
George Bumann: Yeah.

02:25:25.274 --> 02:25:26.384
They're terms of endearment.

02:25:26.744 --> 02:25:27.614
Yeah, for sure.

02:25:28.004 --> 02:25:32.354
And they're part of our own story
of healing and just living here.

02:25:32.354 --> 02:25:35.444
So I'm gonna go sit in
the tree palace and Okay.

02:25:35.444 --> 02:25:37.154
See what the mag pies are talking about.

02:25:37.364 --> 02:25:37.664
Mm-hmm.

02:25:39.134 --> 02:25:39.674
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

02:25:40.154 --> 02:25:43.724
I guess we should go do that.

02:25:44.444 --> 02:25:45.464
I'll go get Axel.

02:25:45.824 --> 02:25:50.194
He's revving up his bottom and
hopefully the fireflies will, will

02:25:50.194 --> 02:25:53.179
add the sublime to his, to his

02:25:55.684 --> 02:25:59.014
specializing of the plants
on which the fireflies

02:26:01.564 --> 02:26:02.014
dance.

02:26:02.524 --> 02:26:08.224
Craig, your octopus, please greet her
from me and tell her how grateful I am.

02:26:09.079 --> 02:26:16.519
To her and her kind for letting you film
the film that you made, which I think did

02:26:16.519 --> 02:26:19.789
create you, your, your charity Sea change.

02:26:19.789 --> 02:26:27.289
I think, I think Mar to Besi did create
a sea change actually in people's

02:26:27.289 --> 02:26:28.699
perception of nature through media.

02:26:28.699 --> 02:26:29.479
I, I really do.

02:26:30.019 --> 02:26:35.569
You know, well it, so, but the octopus
had to allow itself to be filmed that way.

02:26:35.569 --> 02:26:43.369
So please thank her on my behalf George
the Magpie I love magpie and they have a

02:26:43.369 --> 02:26:45.529
nest right outside this window here too.

02:26:45.709 --> 02:26:48.139
And I've, now you've said falseness.

02:26:48.139 --> 02:26:52.579
I didn't know this about them
and I've wondered why they seem

02:26:52.579 --> 02:26:55.099
to spend so much time there, but
there don't seem to be any eggs.

02:26:55.819 --> 02:26:58.729
So now I'm wondering if, if that's why

02:26:59.359 --> 02:27:03.379
George Bumann: put on a monkey suit and
peek in the nest, because if they see you.

02:27:03.844 --> 02:27:04.654
Going into the nest.

02:27:04.654 --> 02:27:06.934
They'll hassle you from
here on, ever forward.

02:27:07.354 --> 02:27:11.404
So put on a disguise, check the
nest, and then take off the disguise.

02:27:11.404 --> 02:27:12.364
I, I'm gonna disguise myself as

02:27:12.364 --> 02:27:13.264
Rupert Isaacson: George Boomer, I think.

02:27:13.264 --> 02:27:13.474
Yeah.

02:27:16.864 --> 02:27:17.224
George Bumann: Go, go

02:27:17.224 --> 02:27:17.884
Rupert Isaacson: talk to him.

02:27:17.974 --> 02:27:18.124
Yeah.

02:27:19.324 --> 02:27:19.354
I

02:27:19.354 --> 02:27:21.844
George Bumann: visited Rupert
and these birds are attacking me.

02:27:21.844 --> 02:27:23.224
What's going on here?

02:27:23.974 --> 02:27:25.744
Just rabble-rousers.

02:27:26.944 --> 02:27:27.214
No,

02:27:29.884 --> 02:27:30.994
you've just trained them.

02:27:31.774 --> 02:27:33.154
This, this has been a pleasure.

02:27:33.244 --> 02:27:33.304
Yeah.

02:27:33.334 --> 02:27:35.644
It's such a joy to, to
share this with you both.

02:27:35.734 --> 02:27:36.364
It's such

02:27:36.364 --> 02:27:39.184
Rupert Isaacson: a, it's such a privilege
to be able to have conversations

02:27:39.184 --> 02:27:43.834
like this about topics like this with
people that you love and respect.

02:27:44.344 --> 02:27:50.164
So my utter gratitude to you guys for the

02:27:50.164 --> 02:27:50.314
Craig Foster: work.

02:27:50.314 --> 02:27:54.514
Well, thanks so much for all your
effort in, in doing this rut and keeping

02:27:54.514 --> 02:27:57.214
going and your energy and everything.

02:27:57.214 --> 02:28:00.904
So really, and your,
your, your way with this.

02:28:00.904 --> 02:28:01.924
Thank, thank you so much.

02:28:02.044 --> 02:28:02.944
Rupert Isaacson: Well, hopefully we can do

02:28:02.944 --> 02:28:03.454
Craig Foster: this again.

02:28:04.174 --> 02:28:05.164
George Bumann: Yeah, that'd be wonderful.

02:28:05.764 --> 02:28:05.914
Okay.

02:28:05.914 --> 02:28:06.334
Thank you.

02:28:07.954 --> 02:28:08.224
Rupert Isaacson: All right.

02:28:08.224 --> 02:28:09.274
That's, I'm gonna click that.

02:28:09.274 --> 02:28:09.424
Bless

02:28:09.424 --> 02:28:09.964
Craig Foster: you guys.

02:28:10.144 --> 02:28:10.954
Bless you guys.

02:28:11.224 --> 02:28:11.554
Bless you.

02:28:11.554 --> 02:28:13.324
I made this one today, Georgia.

02:28:13.324 --> 02:28:14.194
Then if you can see, oh,

02:28:16.114 --> 02:28:17.554
George Bumann: look at that.

02:28:17.644 --> 02:28:17.914
Whoa.

02:28:18.844 --> 02:28:23.554
Oh, I don't have yours to show me, but I
drilled a hole in yours and I'm making,

02:28:24.334 --> 02:28:27.064
I'm making a necklace to put it on.

02:28:27.064 --> 02:28:28.564
Somebody could take that
out of context, Georgia.

02:28:32.914 --> 02:28:33.904
We're among friends.

02:28:34.714 --> 02:28:35.344
Among friends.

02:28:36.574 --> 02:28:36.844
What is that?

02:28:37.474 --> 02:28:38.434
That's beautiful.

02:28:38.464 --> 02:28:39.364
That's so beautiful.

02:28:39.364 --> 02:28:39.694
What is

02:28:39.694 --> 02:28:40.114
Craig Foster: that?

02:28:40.114 --> 02:28:45.784
This is a, this is a, a seed
that's come down from Mozambique.

02:28:46.174 --> 02:28:46.204
Okay.

02:28:46.234 --> 02:28:47.644
It's a Zulu love bean.

02:28:47.644 --> 02:28:49.054
It's like a lucky seed.

02:28:49.174 --> 02:28:50.884
And then I've just engraved this.

02:28:51.529 --> 02:28:54.199
I dunno if you can see that
kinda shamanic octopus on there.

02:28:54.649 --> 02:28:55.159
Yeah, if you can.

02:28:55.159 --> 02:28:56.179
It catches the light.

02:28:56.239 --> 02:28:56.479
Yeah.

02:28:56.989 --> 02:28:57.169
Yeah.

02:28:57.229 --> 02:28:58.609
So it comes in on the ocean.

02:28:59.050 --> 02:28:59.650
Rupert Isaacson: Alright guys.

02:28:59.890 --> 02:29:02.260
Craig, I know you need to go to
bed and get up early for your

02:29:02.260 --> 02:29:04.930
octopus, my dog's bottom, you guys.

02:29:04.930 --> 02:29:05.710
Craig Foster: Lots of love.

02:29:05.890 --> 02:29:06.580
Lots of love.

02:29:06.580 --> 02:29:07.000
Bless you.

02:29:07.000 --> 02:29:07.855
Take at you.

02:29:08.560 --> 02:29:09.190
We'll be in touch.

02:29:09.490 --> 02:29:09.760
Thank you.

02:29:09.790 --> 02:29:10.900
Okay, wonderful.

02:29:11.195 --> 02:29:11.615
Cheers.

02:29:11.795 --> 02:29:12.015
Bye.

02:29:12.195 --> 02:29:12.415
Bye.

02:29:12.635 --> 02:29:12.855
George Bumann: Bye.

02:29:13.330 --> 02:29:13.720
Cheers.

02:29:13.720 --> 02:29:13.840
Is.

02:29:15.040 --> 02:29:18.420
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

02:29:19.250 --> 02:29:23.000
If you did, please help us to make more.

02:29:23.000 --> 02:29:26.880
Please like, subscribe, tell
a friend, give us a thumbs up.

02:29:27.330 --> 02:29:32.580
If you'd like to support us on Patreon,
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02:29:32.900 --> 02:29:33.250
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02:29:33.450 --> 02:29:36.630
And if you'd like to find out about
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02:29:37.020 --> 02:29:40.970
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There's a whole range of cool stuff.

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02:30:19.775 --> 02:30:23.325
I can't wait for our next guest
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02:30:24.125 --> 02:30:27.915
In the meantime, remember, live free.

02:30:28.845 --> 02:30:29.395
Ride free.