1 00:00:01,040 --> 00:00:02,500 Sandra Pham: Hey y'all, I'm Sandra Pham. 2 00:00:02,810 --> 00:00:04,210 Minh Vu: And I'm Minh Vu. 3 00:00:04,830 --> 00:00:06,779 Welcome to Asian in Austin. 4 00:00:16,880 --> 00:00:22,929 All right, so I think as soon as we created this podcast, it's been 5 00:00:22,979 --> 00:00:27,819 our goal to try to do an episode dedicated to mental health, especially 6 00:00:27,819 --> 00:00:32,319 in our community and knowing how it's kind of a taboo subject. 7 00:00:32,349 --> 00:00:36,500 At least growing up for me, it was a taboo subject and it probably still is. 8 00:00:36,569 --> 00:00:40,979 My parents, if I'm being honest probably don't have the most 9 00:00:40,989 --> 00:00:44,149 modern take on mental health. 10 00:00:44,729 --> 00:00:49,109 I've definitely seen them evolve a little bit around it, but like going to 11 00:00:49,110 --> 00:00:56,200 a therapist is kind of a still, you know, hand over mouth, gasp type of moment. 12 00:00:56,744 --> 00:00:58,194 Sandra Pham: Stigmatized for sure. 13 00:00:58,304 --> 00:01:02,634 Yeah, I think you and I on a personal level have a lot of these conversations 14 00:01:02,634 --> 00:01:07,884 around mental health and I think we've definitely struggled on navigating how we 15 00:01:07,884 --> 00:01:13,184 want to talk about it on this podcast and so why we've waited until season three to 16 00:01:13,194 --> 00:01:17,854 really talk about it, I think, formally on an episode and bring on this guest. 17 00:01:18,175 --> 00:01:21,964 But I'm so thrilled and excited that we have a lot more to talk about. 18 00:01:21,994 --> 00:01:28,520 I think there's Subject is just so interesting to me and so intricate, but 19 00:01:28,550 --> 00:01:30,930 I'm glad we're finally just doing it. 20 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:35,850 Minh Vu: What a cool opportunity to because earlier this year you hosted 21 00:01:36,240 --> 00:01:42,549 this amazing panel was very strong women in the community for SXSW. 22 00:01:42,599 --> 00:01:47,669 And that's, that's kind of where actually, yeah, SX, I remember I going 23 00:01:47,669 --> 00:01:53,709 to like a meeting or the organizers who had sessions or panels right? 24 00:01:53,709 --> 00:02:00,479 SX put on this like orientation and I saw our guest speak at this session and 25 00:02:00,479 --> 00:02:03,840 I was like, Sandra, I think we found our person we should bring on the podcast. 26 00:02:03,870 --> 00:02:08,470 And then another opportunity came where we were trying to help support 27 00:02:08,489 --> 00:02:11,219 a panel and you reached out to her. 28 00:02:11,219 --> 00:02:12,470 And yeah, no. 29 00:02:12,480 --> 00:02:13,130 How was that? 30 00:02:14,410 --> 00:02:15,150 Tell me more about that. 31 00:02:15,170 --> 00:02:17,020 Can you tell our listeners more about that? 32 00:02:17,070 --> 00:02:18,859 Sandra Pham: Yeah, I think it was a little bit of kismet. 33 00:02:18,890 --> 00:02:20,230 We were really fortunate. 34 00:02:20,239 --> 00:02:25,080 I think we had through hearsay have heard of our guest here, and I 35 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:29,199 was fortunate enough to moderate a panel where our guest was also on. 36 00:02:29,630 --> 00:02:32,720 Really impressed and just interested in her story. 37 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:37,710 So I'm feeling very fortunate that she was able to make time and join us today. 38 00:02:37,710 --> 00:02:40,610 And I think our listeners are really going to resonate with 39 00:02:40,610 --> 00:02:42,050 some of the topics we dig into. 40 00:02:42,990 --> 00:02:46,130 Minh Vu: Yeah, so we keep on saying our guest. 41 00:02:46,150 --> 00:02:47,250 Our guest is Dr. 42 00:02:47,250 --> 00:02:53,010 Pooja Lakshmin and yeah, I think let's get into her bio and then 43 00:02:53,010 --> 00:02:56,520 we'll get into the interview, but Dr. 44 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:02,775 Pooja Lakshmin MD Is a board certified psychiatrist, author, keynote speaker, 45 00:03:02,895 --> 00:03:07,515 and a contributor to the New York Times her debut book, "Real Self-Care: 46 00:03:07,545 --> 00:03:12,435 Crystals, Cleanses, and Bubble Bath not Included", is an NPR Best Book 47 00:03:12,525 --> 00:03:15,045 of 2023 and a national bestseller. 48 00:03:15,565 --> 00:03:19,300 "Real Self-Care" has been featured by Good Morning America, NPR's 49 00:03:19,315 --> 00:03:24,935 "Code Switch," the New York Times, the Ezra Klein Show, the Guardian, 50 00:03:24,965 --> 00:03:27,405 and translated into 10 languages. 51 00:03:27,445 --> 00:03:30,605 She lives in Austin with her partner, Justin, their toddler, 52 00:03:30,625 --> 00:03:33,455 and their two cats, Kitty and Fifi. 53 00:03:33,955 --> 00:03:39,115 Needless to say, we're so fortunate and feel so humbled that Dr. 54 00:03:39,115 --> 00:03:43,995 Lakshmin Shared her time with us to be able to talk more about her 55 00:03:43,995 --> 00:03:48,854 book and even her story with us so I'm really excited for you all 56 00:03:48,865 --> 00:03:52,325 to listen in and let's get into it 57 00:04:01,614 --> 00:04:01,944 Hey, Dr. 58 00:04:01,944 --> 00:04:06,670 Lakshmin, thank you so much for joining us today today on 59 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,180 the Asian in Austin podcast. 60 00:04:08,210 --> 00:04:10,760 I know you've got a super busy schedule. 61 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:15,089 You've been all around sharing some more of your story in your book, and I'm just 62 00:04:15,089 --> 00:04:18,639 really appreciative that you've been able to share some of your time with us today. 63 00:04:18,640 --> 00:04:19,710 So welcome. 64 00:04:20,429 --> 00:04:20,899 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Thank you. 65 00:04:20,899 --> 00:04:22,754 It's a pleasure to be here with both of you. 66 00:04:23,164 --> 00:04:27,375 Minh Vu: Yeah, so we start our episodes off by giving our guests 67 00:04:27,375 --> 00:04:30,045 an opportunity to share a little bit more about their identities. 68 00:04:30,055 --> 00:04:34,235 So I'm wondering if you could share with our listeners your ethnicities, 69 00:04:34,255 --> 00:04:37,655 pronouns, any other identities that you'd like to share with us. 70 00:04:38,409 --> 00:04:39,370 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, absolutely. 71 00:04:39,370 --> 00:04:42,240 So I am South Asian American. 72 00:04:42,360 --> 00:04:47,610 I go by she, her, I, my parents immigrated to the United States, so 73 00:04:47,640 --> 00:04:49,710 I am second generation slash first. 74 00:04:49,990 --> 00:04:51,010 I always get confused. 75 00:04:51,010 --> 00:04:55,439 I feel like it's like one and a half generation, but yeah, so kind of a lot of 76 00:04:55,440 --> 00:05:01,619 the typical tensions and struggles that come with being the first generation that 77 00:05:01,629 --> 00:05:05,529 is grown, that's born here and growing up here, which I'm sure we will dive into. 78 00:05:05,949 --> 00:05:06,449 That's it. 79 00:05:07,495 --> 00:05:07,915 Minh Vu: Yeah. 80 00:05:08,055 --> 00:05:08,515 Appreciate it. 81 00:05:08,515 --> 00:05:09,905 And yeah, that definitely resonates. 82 00:05:09,935 --> 00:05:13,845 We, Sandra and I have definitely discussed a lot, some of the pressures 83 00:05:13,845 --> 00:05:18,755 that can sometimes occur or, you know, get brought up when you're kind of 84 00:05:18,775 --> 00:05:23,664 the first to navigate a lot of, in this case, like the American systems. 85 00:05:24,034 --> 00:05:29,715 So I know you've had quite a year, but how's 2024 been treating you so far? 86 00:05:30,794 --> 00:05:33,474 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: 2024 has really been off to a great start. 87 00:05:33,605 --> 00:05:38,804 I, my book "Real Self-Care" came out last year, last March, and so the book launch 88 00:05:38,804 --> 00:05:43,184 kind of took me all over and it really, it really changed kind of the trajectory of 89 00:05:43,184 --> 00:05:49,255 my career and what I do for work in some sense, because before the book came out, 90 00:05:49,275 --> 00:05:51,834 it did not used to travel at all for work. 91 00:05:52,034 --> 00:05:55,235 Now, since I'm being asked to bring "Real Self-Care" to all these 92 00:05:55,235 --> 00:05:59,495 different organizations and schools and places, I'm on the road more, but 93 00:05:59,495 --> 00:06:04,485 I think I have come into 2024 kind of feeling like I'm hitting my stride. 94 00:06:05,075 --> 00:06:09,814 My son just turned two last weekend, and so I also feel like me and my 95 00:06:09,814 --> 00:06:13,085 partner Justin are kind of like hitting our stride as parents also now that 96 00:06:13,085 --> 00:06:14,735 we've been doing this for two years. 97 00:06:15,304 --> 00:06:16,845 So yeah, I can't complain. 98 00:06:16,855 --> 00:06:19,135 I mean, I guess the only thing I can complain about is the heat. 99 00:06:19,340 --> 00:06:25,319 Because it's so freaking hot right now, but that is Austin in the summer. 100 00:06:25,919 --> 00:06:27,150 Minh Vu: I know it's starting. 101 00:06:27,189 --> 00:06:30,559 I can't believe we're already here with that heat and also happy 102 00:06:30,559 --> 00:06:31,929 belated birthday to your son. 103 00:06:31,939 --> 00:06:33,080 That's so awesome. 104 00:06:33,510 --> 00:06:39,110 Really excited and happy to see the book launch and this new chapter of your 105 00:06:39,110 --> 00:06:41,490 career has really kind of rocketed off. 106 00:06:41,650 --> 00:06:42,870 So congratulations. 107 00:06:43,544 --> 00:06:44,155 Sandra Pham: Thank you. 108 00:06:44,595 --> 00:06:50,805 Yeah, so I want to jump in and I want to go back a couple, a few years and 109 00:06:50,805 --> 00:06:56,114 kind of talk about Pooja growing up and taking a look at, you know, something 110 00:06:56,114 --> 00:07:00,015 I know that you've mentioned before on the panel and something that resonated 111 00:07:00,055 --> 00:07:03,775 with a lot of folks is just your upbringing, you know, addressing the 112 00:07:03,775 --> 00:07:07,975 patriarchal South Asian culture, how you navigated that, this perception of 113 00:07:07,975 --> 00:07:10,075 you needing to be a good Indian girl. 114 00:07:10,485 --> 00:07:15,854 How did that all really shape you in adolescence or even managing 115 00:07:15,885 --> 00:07:19,554 early stages in your career and then wanting to pursue where you are today? 116 00:07:19,775 --> 00:07:22,324 I'd love for you to dig a little bit further into that. 117 00:07:22,574 --> 00:07:26,694 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I think that, like I mentioned earlier, being kind of the first 118 00:07:26,694 --> 00:07:29,125 generation that's born and raised here. 119 00:07:29,145 --> 00:07:34,145 We are kind of the holders of this assimilation process, but 120 00:07:34,145 --> 00:07:39,694 also the tension that inherently comes when you are spending. 121 00:07:40,829 --> 00:07:45,059 Much of your time in a new culture, quote unquote "new", you know, American culture. 122 00:07:45,059 --> 00:07:48,569 And then there's the quote unquote "old culture" at home with your parents. 123 00:07:49,039 --> 00:07:51,709 So for me, you know, my parents are from South Asia. 124 00:07:51,799 --> 00:07:54,919 They came here, my mom was in her twenties. 125 00:07:55,219 --> 00:08:00,409 They had an arranged marriage, and my dad had gone to medical school in India. 126 00:08:01,084 --> 00:08:05,364 And past all of his, you know, the extensive licensing examinations and 127 00:08:05,364 --> 00:08:09,244 things that foreign medical graduates have to go through and was able to 128 00:08:09,245 --> 00:08:11,594 get a residency in Philadelphia. 129 00:08:11,664 --> 00:08:14,454 And he used to practice as a physician. 130 00:08:14,464 --> 00:08:15,905 So my dad was a doctor. 131 00:08:15,934 --> 00:08:19,184 My mom stayed at home and raised me and my sister. 132 00:08:19,564 --> 00:08:24,585 My sister is nine years younger than me, so I kind of feel like we were both, to 133 00:08:24,585 --> 00:08:30,205 some extent, only children because by the time she was born, I was in such a 134 00:08:30,205 --> 00:08:35,884 different life stage and you know, then when she was sort of like growing up for a 135 00:08:35,885 --> 00:08:37,655 lot of it, I was kind of out of the house. 136 00:08:38,545 --> 00:08:44,544 I guess that model minority myth definitely was strong in my family. 137 00:08:45,024 --> 00:08:48,474 You know, it was kind of like studying was the most important 138 00:08:48,474 --> 00:08:49,824 thing and getting good grades. 139 00:08:49,824 --> 00:08:51,334 And it was just sort of expected. 140 00:08:51,334 --> 00:08:53,704 It wasn't necessarily that it was praised. 141 00:08:53,704 --> 00:08:55,135 It was just sort of expected. 142 00:08:55,775 --> 00:08:58,435 There wasn't like, there was no question about it. 143 00:08:58,485 --> 00:08:59,715 You know, it was just, well, that's... 144 00:08:59,775 --> 00:09:03,534 and looking back, I think it's, that's interesting because I do feel like 145 00:09:03,994 --> 00:09:08,240 friends that I had that were not Asian... 146 00:09:08,760 --> 00:09:13,840 it just felt like their childhoods were more well, well rounded and there was 147 00:09:13,850 --> 00:09:20,050 more of an opportunity for them to be children in a way where I think for 148 00:09:20,520 --> 00:09:26,650 first gen kids, we do bear this burden of becoming parentified more quickly, like 149 00:09:26,650 --> 00:09:31,840 having to grow up more quickly because you're also serving as a translator 150 00:09:31,850 --> 00:09:35,709 to some extent, sometimes in families, like literally as a translator and then, 151 00:09:35,709 --> 00:09:38,214 you know, also kind of metaphorically. 152 00:09:38,625 --> 00:09:42,055 So, you know, I went through all of the sort of typical struggles that a 153 00:09:42,055 --> 00:09:46,615 lot of Indian girls went through in the 90s and 2000s and still go through. 154 00:09:47,015 --> 00:09:50,194 I hated that my skin was darker than everybody else's. 155 00:09:50,194 --> 00:09:53,985 I desperately wanted to have blonde hair and blue eyes and white skin. 156 00:09:54,474 --> 00:09:58,040 I was you know, kind of embarrassed about the food that my family 157 00:09:58,050 --> 00:10:00,440 ate, and I didn't understand why. 158 00:10:00,890 --> 00:10:04,999 I remember I was saying, like, we had to eat two dinners, we had to eat the roti, 159 00:10:05,290 --> 00:10:07,230 and then we also had to eat the rice. 160 00:10:07,270 --> 00:10:09,150 And I was like, why do we have two dinners? 161 00:10:09,170 --> 00:10:09,340 You know? 162 00:10:10,350 --> 00:10:13,500 And at that time, Indian food was not cool, like it is now. 163 00:10:13,850 --> 00:10:15,290 So it really was, like, weird. 164 00:10:15,290 --> 00:10:17,730 Like, I didn't want to talk about it with friends. 165 00:10:17,780 --> 00:10:20,850 Like, I wouldn't have friends over for dinner or anything like that. 166 00:10:21,370 --> 00:10:23,920 And yeah, so I, it was a really... 167 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:28,990 and I grew up in, in a predominantly white area of Pennsylvania, about an 168 00:10:28,990 --> 00:10:30,659 hour and a half outside of Philadelphia. 169 00:10:31,330 --> 00:10:34,130 And it was once I went to college at University of Pennsylvania 170 00:10:34,140 --> 00:10:39,179 at Penn that I kind of found more of my community, I guess. 171 00:10:39,179 --> 00:10:43,390 But even, it's interesting because I think in some ways I always 172 00:10:43,390 --> 00:10:50,680 felt like I was too white to fit in with the super Indian folks. 173 00:10:50,709 --> 00:10:51,999 And then I was like, not. 174 00:10:53,055 --> 00:10:57,315 I was not a white person, so I was brown and didn't fit in with, so I 175 00:10:57,365 --> 00:11:02,425 always kind of fell in between because at Penn there is a very strong Indian, 176 00:11:02,425 --> 00:11:05,405 South Asian community and lots of different interest groups and, you know, 177 00:11:05,905 --> 00:11:07,765 dance and all these different things. 178 00:11:07,774 --> 00:11:11,535 And I'm a terrible dancer and I remember trying to, trying out 179 00:11:11,535 --> 00:11:13,045 for, at Penn it's called PENNaach. 180 00:11:13,064 --> 00:11:14,834 I tried out and it was horrible. 181 00:11:14,844 --> 00:11:17,344 Like, you know, so I just kind of always felt like, oh gosh, 182 00:11:17,344 --> 00:11:18,594 I'm not even doing that right. 183 00:11:18,819 --> 00:11:21,670 And I guess the other piece and sorry, this is a very long winded answer, but 184 00:11:21,699 --> 00:11:25,470 is that I spend a lot of time in India growing up probably every other summer. 185 00:11:25,810 --> 00:11:28,939 My mom and I, and then when my sister was born, she would come 186 00:11:28,939 --> 00:11:32,580 to, we'd spend the whole summer at my grandmother's house in India. 187 00:11:33,039 --> 00:11:34,159 My mom has two sisters. 188 00:11:34,159 --> 00:11:35,629 And so my aunts would be there. 189 00:11:35,629 --> 00:11:36,700 My cousins would be there. 190 00:11:36,709 --> 00:11:38,029 And it was always so fun. 191 00:11:38,090 --> 00:11:43,230 I loved being in India and getting to have that relationship with my cousins 192 00:11:43,230 --> 00:11:50,400 there, but I did always feel like I, Was missing out on summer here in the 193 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:54,660 States and all my friends were, you know, go to the pool and doing all sorts 194 00:11:54,660 --> 00:11:57,229 of summer things and I was kind of off. 195 00:11:57,709 --> 00:12:02,769 I guess we had a, I feel like this happened even before AOL and AIM. 196 00:12:03,565 --> 00:12:06,965 You know, so we had to write, like, I remember writing letters to my 197 00:12:06,965 --> 00:12:10,475 friends, and sometimes it would, the letters wouldn't even arrive 198 00:12:10,475 --> 00:12:13,195 until we got back from the trip. 199 00:12:13,695 --> 00:12:16,625 Just thinking about it is wild, because now, you know, it's like, 200 00:12:16,715 --> 00:12:19,385 we have WhatsApp, you have social media, it doesn't really matter. 201 00:12:19,995 --> 00:12:26,225 Minh Vu: Yeah, there's so much there that you shared that resonates. 202 00:12:26,345 --> 00:12:29,645 Also, I feel like being in the in between is something that a lot of 203 00:12:29,655 --> 00:12:32,925 people in the Asian community can feel. 204 00:12:33,255 --> 00:12:38,635 I'm curious, since you did do the summers in India, was it 205 00:12:38,635 --> 00:12:40,449 ever jarring for you coming back? 206 00:12:40,449 --> 00:12:44,224 Like, did you feel did that just accentuate that in between 207 00:12:44,224 --> 00:12:48,035 feeling a little bit and how did you feel even in India? 208 00:12:48,134 --> 00:12:50,464 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, it was always an adjustment on both sides. 209 00:12:50,494 --> 00:12:55,264 I specifically remember maybe this was in like fourth or fifth grade one 210 00:12:55,264 --> 00:12:59,035 summer when I came back before school started having this long conversation 211 00:12:59,055 --> 00:13:03,615 with my best friend at the time where she caught me up on every single song 212 00:13:03,625 --> 00:13:08,694 that was popular now that I had missed and I remember this is very this dates 213 00:13:08,694 --> 00:13:12,914 me this song that was popular at that time was it was right when Brandy and 214 00:13:12,925 --> 00:13:15,614 Monica that song came out The Boy Is Mine 215 00:13:17,694 --> 00:13:21,265 So, yeah, so I didn't know what was cool so she had to kind of catch me up. 216 00:13:21,834 --> 00:13:25,040 People in India always knew that I was American. 217 00:13:25,219 --> 00:13:28,400 I speak Kannada, which is the language that my family speaks, 218 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:31,860 but even still, obviously a huge accent and just the way that I did 219 00:13:31,860 --> 00:13:33,989 my hair and the clothes that I wore. 220 00:13:34,519 --> 00:13:38,389 But I think it was some of the things that stand out there as being kind 221 00:13:38,389 --> 00:13:40,710 of setting me apart is like clothing. 222 00:13:40,780 --> 00:13:44,285 You know, I would always have to kind of wear more conservative 223 00:13:44,285 --> 00:13:48,645 clothes in India, like no shorts, longer skirts, things like that. 224 00:13:48,655 --> 00:13:49,844 No tank tops. 225 00:13:50,285 --> 00:13:55,285 And it was kind of like this in between of always sort of having to 226 00:13:55,345 --> 00:14:00,614 navigate and figure out where you fit. 227 00:14:00,675 --> 00:14:05,285 And I think that to some extent, that's still something that I am constantly 228 00:14:05,925 --> 00:14:11,445 navigating and I've been become a lot less insecure about it and now I know that I 229 00:14:11,515 --> 00:14:17,245 have this tendency and I can catch myself when I'm wanting to sort of be part of 230 00:14:17,245 --> 00:14:20,605 the club or whatever it is and pull back. 231 00:14:20,685 --> 00:14:25,464 But I think a lot of that stems from the childhood experiences that I had. 232 00:14:26,069 --> 00:14:29,790 Minh Vu: Yeah, in retrospect, I mean, do you feel like those summer trips to 233 00:14:29,790 --> 00:14:33,030 India also had like positive effects? 234 00:14:33,349 --> 00:14:33,729 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Absolutely. 235 00:14:33,729 --> 00:14:38,550 I have so many just wonderful memories and I love that I have this connection 236 00:14:38,589 --> 00:14:44,379 to India and that it does feel like a place that is a version of home for me. 237 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,849 My parents are retired now and they actually they have a condo in 238 00:14:48,849 --> 00:14:54,230 Bangalore and they spend a couple months a year there and I have cousins 239 00:14:54,230 --> 00:14:55,830 that are there, my aunts and uncles. 240 00:14:55,830 --> 00:15:00,489 So it's, it's definitely, I think it was a net positive, but then, you 241 00:15:00,489 --> 00:15:02,709 know, there's just these bits that, 242 00:15:03,199 --> 00:15:03,279 yeah, 243 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:04,490 Sandra Pham: yeah, yeah. 244 00:15:05,229 --> 00:15:10,060 As you think about your son, do you consider that you would want 245 00:15:10,060 --> 00:15:13,360 him to spend a significant amount of time or summers in India? 246 00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:16,480 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I don't see him spending some whole summers 247 00:15:16,480 --> 00:15:18,160 there in the way that we did. 248 00:15:18,250 --> 00:15:22,030 But I do want him to visit India and I want him to know that this is part 249 00:15:22,030 --> 00:15:24,250 of his culture and his identity. 250 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:28,080 My partner is white, so he's, so our son is, you know, 251 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:29,910 half white, half South Asian. 252 00:15:29,950 --> 00:15:35,865 And, yeah, I want him to know that, It's a place that he has roots. 253 00:15:36,064 --> 00:15:39,814 So we're kind of in the process of navigating when that first trip will be. 254 00:15:39,865 --> 00:15:42,035 We have not yet taken him on an airplane. 255 00:15:42,355 --> 00:15:47,115 So that's the limiting factor of just how long it takes to get there and the travel. 256 00:15:57,574 --> 00:16:00,385 Sandra Pham: When I was reading the book, and this is kind of in the 257 00:16:00,385 --> 00:16:03,735 early chapters and you kind of bring this up, I definitely, this was a 258 00:16:03,735 --> 00:16:05,795 moment of like, did I read this right? 259 00:16:06,084 --> 00:16:07,014 So I want to talk about it. 260 00:16:07,024 --> 00:16:11,364 So before you arrived where you got today, and again, it's, you know, you have 261 00:16:11,364 --> 00:16:15,524 this amazing career, this amazing book, you talk about navigating your career 262 00:16:15,524 --> 00:16:19,305 early on and you kind of had a pivot. 263 00:16:19,715 --> 00:16:23,245 And so in your late twenties, you dropped out of a very competitive 264 00:16:23,304 --> 00:16:28,225 residency program and joined a commune that taught orgasmic meditation. 265 00:16:28,285 --> 00:16:30,915 And that's the first time I've ever heard that term. 266 00:16:31,474 --> 00:16:33,134 How did that get on your radar? 267 00:16:33,655 --> 00:16:38,214 And more, what I want to dig into, how did your parents take that? 268 00:16:38,224 --> 00:16:39,094 How did they react? 269 00:16:39,104 --> 00:16:41,285 How did you explain that whole pause? 270 00:16:41,994 --> 00:16:46,114 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I decided to include this part of my story right in the 271 00:16:46,114 --> 00:16:51,464 introduction of the book because I wanted my readers to know that I was coming to 272 00:16:52,289 --> 00:16:57,209 real self care, not just as a psychiatrist who takes care of patients struggling 273 00:16:57,209 --> 00:17:02,009 with these things, but also as a human myself who has made mistakes and kind 274 00:17:02,009 --> 00:17:06,330 of went down the rabbit hole of extreme wellness and came out the other side. 275 00:17:06,770 --> 00:17:09,729 So that was kind of a decision that I made because it definitely is a pretty wild 276 00:17:09,729 --> 00:17:12,849 story and people have reactions to it. 277 00:17:12,939 --> 00:17:16,770 And yeah, I, as we had talked about, I'd kind of gone through 278 00:17:16,770 --> 00:17:21,099 my childhood and teenage years and early adulthood, sort of striving 279 00:17:21,110 --> 00:17:25,150 to be the good Indian girl, getting good grades, going to good schools, 280 00:17:25,180 --> 00:17:27,380 becoming a doctor, getting married. 281 00:17:27,759 --> 00:17:33,395 And I found myself in my late 20s in my psychiatry residency, just completely 282 00:17:33,405 --> 00:17:35,935 burnt out because I had not taken a break. 283 00:17:35,935 --> 00:17:41,245 I just gone from undergrad to med school to residency and also really disillusioned 284 00:17:41,495 --> 00:17:44,665 with medicine and psychiatry at the time. 285 00:17:44,675 --> 00:17:48,495 You know, I just kind of felt like the image that I had of 286 00:17:48,514 --> 00:17:52,165 being a doctor was very different than what it was on the ground. 287 00:17:52,425 --> 00:17:57,415 And, um, I kind of, I had an extreme reaction that I do not recommend to 288 00:17:57,435 --> 00:18:00,525 other people, but I blew up my life. 289 00:18:00,525 --> 00:18:04,855 I left my marriage, I moved into this commune in San Francisco, left 290 00:18:04,855 --> 00:18:10,035 my residency, and I went really down this rabbit hole of alternative 291 00:18:10,035 --> 00:18:13,235 medicine, like all of the "woo" stuff, like the meditation, the 292 00:18:13,235 --> 00:18:15,875 spirituality, like all of that. 293 00:18:15,935 --> 00:18:20,780 And, um, I realize that also is not the answer to life's problems, and 294 00:18:20,780 --> 00:18:25,600 there's just as many contradictions and hypocrisies in the alternative 295 00:18:25,600 --> 00:18:29,419 medicine world as there are in mainstream medicine, and that you can't 296 00:18:29,830 --> 00:18:35,309 just outsource your decision making, basically, that you need to really, 297 00:18:35,339 --> 00:18:39,700 that real wellness comes from making the hard decisions in your own life. 298 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,620 And I always like to share that when I talk about this, that I was 299 00:18:43,620 --> 00:18:49,305 extremely privileged to be able to even blow up my life like blowing up 300 00:18:49,305 --> 00:18:51,625 your life is for sure a privilege. 301 00:18:51,625 --> 00:18:55,405 And one of the reasons that I could is because I did not have loans from 302 00:18:55,405 --> 00:19:01,264 medical school because of all of the sacrifices that my parents made and 303 00:19:01,304 --> 00:19:08,310 all of their hard work as immigrants in America gave me the luxury of being 304 00:19:08,310 --> 00:19:10,440 able to have an existential crisis. 305 00:19:10,970 --> 00:19:14,000 So I just want to acknowledge that and Sandra, your question 306 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,219 of how my parents react. 307 00:19:15,540 --> 00:19:19,980 So it's funny because I, a couple of months ago, I was on another podcast 308 00:19:20,010 --> 00:19:24,309 that talks about, it's called the Mashup Americans, where they talk about sort of 309 00:19:24,309 --> 00:19:26,750 like the mishmash of cultural identities. 310 00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:30,790 And I realized that I actually didn't tell my parents. 311 00:19:33,054 --> 00:19:34,395 I actually, I just did it. 312 00:19:34,694 --> 00:19:39,824 I just was doing it and it was only after the fact that I told them that 313 00:19:39,835 --> 00:19:44,625 I had left medicine and that I was with this group and I was exploring 314 00:19:44,825 --> 00:19:47,725 these other modalities, meditation. 315 00:19:47,764 --> 00:19:51,825 And it was tough, you know, that I didn't talk with my parents for a while, 316 00:19:51,825 --> 00:19:55,595 like maybe a year or so, like that we were just not really in contact. 317 00:19:55,655 --> 00:20:00,255 And I think we needed that space or I needed that space to set that boundary 318 00:20:00,335 --> 00:20:06,299 after kind of going so hard for so long to kind of meet certain expectations. 319 00:20:06,350 --> 00:20:09,440 You know, again, when I talk about this, I don't mean to... 320 00:20:09,460 --> 00:20:13,219 I think my parents did the best that they could with what they knew. 321 00:20:13,259 --> 00:20:19,839 And you don't have to set such a traumatic or violent boundary... 322 00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:22,089 like that was definitely a big rupture. 323 00:20:22,409 --> 00:20:24,569 But it was the only way that I knew how. 324 00:20:25,000 --> 00:20:28,915 The other thing I want to add is that now, 10 years later, I'm 40 now. 325 00:20:28,955 --> 00:20:30,525 This happened in my late twenties. 326 00:20:31,065 --> 00:20:35,875 I think that it's so interesting because I don't think that our parents, I say 327 00:20:35,904 --> 00:20:41,475 our, like being model minority Asian, I don't think they're wrong with steering 328 00:20:41,475 --> 00:20:46,984 us to things like medicine or law or engineering, like these careers are... 329 00:20:47,554 --> 00:20:48,855 very secure. 330 00:20:49,145 --> 00:20:56,850 Uh, they offer a level of, um, respect prestige that actually-- We live in a 331 00:20:56,850 --> 00:21:03,300 capital society for better or worse, and you do your life is better when you have 332 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:08,650 some money, I would not be able to have the career that I have now as a thought 333 00:21:08,659 --> 00:21:13,520 leader and to be able to write a book and all the things that I've done if I 334 00:21:13,529 --> 00:21:18,110 had not, after that period of my life, gone back to residency finished and 335 00:21:18,110 --> 00:21:22,120 become a board certified psychiatrist and all those things, even though it 336 00:21:22,130 --> 00:21:27,830 felt like at the time, oh, my gosh, like, why did I, you know, kind of lose 337 00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:30,349 my twenties to school on the other side? 338 00:21:30,349 --> 00:21:30,829 Now? 339 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:32,420 I do think it was worth it. 340 00:21:33,139 --> 00:21:33,409 Yeah. 341 00:21:34,279 --> 00:21:35,850 Minh Vu: And I think it does... 342 00:21:36,304 --> 00:21:36,995 I agree. 343 00:21:36,995 --> 00:21:42,915 It does make sense for parents of children who strive to be like model minorities 344 00:21:42,915 --> 00:21:47,774 or how that ends up happening to what I, what we've said a lot in the past 345 00:21:47,784 --> 00:21:52,625 is just that like, they want safety and security for their kids, especially 346 00:21:53,234 --> 00:21:57,815 juxtaposed to maybe the lack of safety and security they had growing up. 347 00:21:58,134 --> 00:22:04,174 And so what is a surefire way to ensure that, and it's these types of careers, 348 00:22:04,590 --> 00:22:07,970 playing the game the way it needs to be played so that you don't get 349 00:22:07,970 --> 00:22:10,400 tripped up and have those other things. 350 00:22:10,690 --> 00:22:12,870 So I think, yeah, that that does make a lot of sense. 351 00:22:12,920 --> 00:22:19,610 And I think there's like, still this weird tension to honor, giving 352 00:22:19,689 --> 00:22:24,505 the children an opportunity to find that security on their terms. 353 00:22:24,685 --> 00:22:28,915 And I think, you know, what you described in a more, I don't know 354 00:22:28,915 --> 00:22:33,355 if extreme is the right word, in your way, you had to do that the 355 00:22:33,355 --> 00:22:35,085 way that you needed to at the time. 356 00:22:35,695 --> 00:22:38,334 And I'm really happy to hear that you were able to come 357 00:22:38,334 --> 00:22:40,545 out on the other side as well. 358 00:22:40,564 --> 00:22:46,355 I think so often people who kind of get into these types of groups, kind of 359 00:22:46,355 --> 00:22:51,215 get stuck and I'm just curious for you, like what gave you the will to leave 360 00:22:51,225 --> 00:22:58,074 and the like encouragement or, you know, courage to, to go ahead and say this 361 00:22:58,085 --> 00:23:02,375 actually isn't what I thought it was and to kind of go into another direction. 362 00:23:03,050 --> 00:23:05,389 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, you know, I'm actually still kind of 363 00:23:05,389 --> 00:23:10,780 working through how to talk about that time and kind of processing 364 00:23:10,780 --> 00:23:12,889 for myself how to talk about it. 365 00:23:12,939 --> 00:23:17,170 But I guess one thing that I can share now is that it was definitely 366 00:23:17,170 --> 00:23:20,739 not any type of like hero's journey. 367 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:26,570 I thought at the time that I was letting them down by leaving and I 368 00:23:26,580 --> 00:23:31,030 felt a lot of guilt and shame and it was not until years and years later 369 00:23:31,030 --> 00:23:35,169 that I found out kind of how dark the story was inside the group and had a 370 00:23:35,199 --> 00:23:39,139 better understanding of what was going on that I wasn't aware of previously. 371 00:23:39,139 --> 00:23:43,370 But I think in a lot of ways, it probably resembles to some degree, 372 00:23:43,370 --> 00:23:48,119 maybe when people leave a religion and you really do feel like you, 373 00:23:48,290 --> 00:23:51,090 you feel like you're letting them down, as opposed to feeling like it's 374 00:23:51,100 --> 00:23:52,879 something triumphant at the time. 375 00:23:53,620 --> 00:23:54,730 Minh Vu: I appreciate you sharing that. 376 00:23:54,780 --> 00:24:00,480 Yeah, I can't imagine how difficult that must have been, but again, glad 377 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:02,330 that you are here on the other side. 378 00:24:11,480 --> 00:24:14,579 Sandra Pham: This next section here will shift gears. 379 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:16,499 We love that you're in Austin. 380 00:24:16,499 --> 00:24:17,899 We're all here Austinites. 381 00:24:18,689 --> 00:24:20,990 You're relatively new to the city. 382 00:24:21,030 --> 00:24:24,290 I'd love for you to share what kind of brought you down to Texas? 383 00:24:24,290 --> 00:24:25,680 How's the reception been? 384 00:24:26,169 --> 00:24:30,179 And when you look at the other places that you've lived throughout your life 385 00:24:30,179 --> 00:24:31,870 and career, how does that compare? 386 00:24:32,360 --> 00:24:33,629 You know, the good and the bad? 387 00:24:34,189 --> 00:24:34,669 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah. 388 00:24:34,709 --> 00:24:35,069 Yeah. 389 00:24:35,449 --> 00:24:40,839 So my partner, Justin and I moved to Austin in December 2020. 390 00:24:41,165 --> 00:24:45,784 So really, in the height of the pandemic, he grew up in Texas, he 391 00:24:45,784 --> 00:24:50,374 grew up outside of Dallas, and he went to UT Austin for graduate school. 392 00:24:50,374 --> 00:24:51,784 He went to the LBJ school. 393 00:24:52,064 --> 00:24:54,154 So he had lived in Austin about a decade ago. 394 00:24:54,324 --> 00:24:56,245 We met in Washington, D. 395 00:24:56,245 --> 00:24:58,154 C., and we had been living together. 396 00:24:58,629 --> 00:25:01,930 And in this little apartment, and then the pandemic hit, we were both 397 00:25:01,930 --> 00:25:05,220 working from home and we realized that we just wanted more space. 398 00:25:05,270 --> 00:25:07,240 We wanted to get out of DC. 399 00:25:07,260 --> 00:25:09,899 We wanted to leave kind of the East coast grind. 400 00:25:10,340 --> 00:25:13,739 And so Austin was where we decided to come. 401 00:25:13,740 --> 00:25:17,240 And so we packed up our car and our two cats. 402 00:25:17,939 --> 00:25:21,019 We drugged our two cats, I should say, for the long drive 403 00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:24,680 and we were really lucky too. 404 00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:26,749 It was before housing. 405 00:25:27,120 --> 00:25:32,539 Prices got like super, super wild, so we were able to buy a house and for, you 406 00:25:32,539 --> 00:25:35,290 know, a reasonable price, whereas in D. 407 00:25:35,290 --> 00:25:35,750 C. 408 00:25:36,030 --> 00:25:39,690 you'd have to pay a million dollars for like a row home that still needed 409 00:25:39,700 --> 00:25:45,549 to be completely gutted and renovated and the first year or two, I didn't 410 00:25:45,550 --> 00:25:48,389 get out much because it was still kind of the height of the pandemic. 411 00:25:48,399 --> 00:25:53,499 It wasn't until really like 2023 that I started to feel like I was getting to know 412 00:25:53,500 --> 00:25:56,469 Austin and I have to say that I love it. 413 00:25:56,794 --> 00:25:57,254 I love it. 414 00:25:57,254 --> 00:25:59,264 I actually, I've not missed D. 415 00:25:59,264 --> 00:25:59,705 C. 416 00:25:59,705 --> 00:26:00,205 once. 417 00:26:00,264 --> 00:26:03,774 I mean, I miss my friends, but I do not miss D. 418 00:26:03,774 --> 00:26:04,164 C. 419 00:26:04,165 --> 00:26:11,804 I think that Austin has the perfect combination of the culture and 420 00:26:11,854 --> 00:26:18,604 amenities of being in a big city while feeling like you live in A medium 421 00:26:18,604 --> 00:26:23,385 sized town, maybe everyone we know our neighbors, we hang out with them. 422 00:26:23,814 --> 00:26:30,054 I was invited to join a dinner club, maybe like a couple weeks after I moved in. 423 00:26:30,054 --> 00:26:35,205 So like I kind of was locked into this great group of women who have been 424 00:26:35,344 --> 00:26:37,324 meeting once a month for like a decade. 425 00:26:37,735 --> 00:26:38,235 So that. 426 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,080 Was amazing luck. 427 00:26:40,169 --> 00:26:43,970 And when we had our son, we were able to find a daycare close 428 00:26:43,970 --> 00:26:48,370 by that is affordable, which is another thing that is not would not 429 00:26:48,370 --> 00:26:50,040 have happened on the East Coast. 430 00:26:50,099 --> 00:26:50,749 And then what else? 431 00:26:51,189 --> 00:26:52,199 I love the food. 432 00:26:52,629 --> 00:26:53,450 I love queso. 433 00:26:53,450 --> 00:26:56,499 So that worked out. 434 00:26:57,850 --> 00:26:58,879 Minh Vu: Had you had it before? 435 00:27:00,175 --> 00:27:03,025 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I've had it once or twice at Justin's, but 436 00:27:03,035 --> 00:27:05,355 not to the level of, of here. 437 00:27:05,405 --> 00:27:09,275 Being able to have it like anytime, like as an appetizer at any 438 00:27:09,275 --> 00:27:10,775 restaurant, basically that you're at. 439 00:27:10,775 --> 00:27:12,045 It's a food group in itself. 440 00:27:12,564 --> 00:27:14,234 And I like barbecue too. 441 00:27:14,274 --> 00:27:18,465 I love, you know, just the different like beer gardens and things like that. 442 00:27:18,475 --> 00:27:21,865 Just the vibe of being able to be outside and having food trucks. 443 00:27:21,865 --> 00:27:25,325 And I really like that it's so much more laid back than 444 00:27:25,355 --> 00:27:26,795 other places that I've lived. 445 00:27:26,795 --> 00:27:26,835 Yeah. 446 00:27:26,835 --> 00:27:26,854 Yeah. 447 00:27:27,764 --> 00:27:32,385 One thing that is very different, though, is that Austin is much less diverse 448 00:27:32,834 --> 00:27:34,735 than other places that I've lived. 449 00:27:35,075 --> 00:27:38,445 It feels like, and I, this is true, there are very few Black people in 450 00:27:38,445 --> 00:27:45,294 Austin, and I think, you know, as Asians, like outside of Latinx folks, 451 00:27:45,325 --> 00:27:50,714 I feel like we're kind of probably the most significant other minority, and it 452 00:27:50,715 --> 00:27:56,064 does feel a bit very segregated too, so that's something that feels different. 453 00:27:56,594 --> 00:28:00,274 So those are things that it's definitely been an adjustment on that side. 454 00:28:00,674 --> 00:28:04,414 I'm hoping it feels like Austin is moving in the direction of more 455 00:28:04,414 --> 00:28:08,674 diversity, especially with the influx of people coming from Texas 456 00:28:08,694 --> 00:28:10,494 and Colorado and the East Coast. 457 00:28:11,114 --> 00:28:13,304 I know people in Austin are not happy about that, but 458 00:28:14,954 --> 00:28:18,054 Minh Vu: Yeah, I mean, I think that's part of this, you know, conundrum 459 00:28:18,154 --> 00:28:20,834 that Austin faces a little bit. 460 00:28:21,264 --> 00:28:25,820 The charm is we've heard it described or have described in the podcast. 461 00:28:25,820 --> 00:28:30,330 It's like a, you know, like you said, medium, small to medium town pretending 462 00:28:30,330 --> 00:28:33,649 to be a big city, but like has both. 463 00:28:33,820 --> 00:28:35,690 So that's what makes it really appealing. 464 00:28:35,950 --> 00:28:40,009 And then there's all the other stuff that also provide some challenges 465 00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:41,610 that you mentioned as well, too. 466 00:28:41,610 --> 00:28:46,984 And, you know, hopefully, I think there is a lot more conversation happening 467 00:28:46,984 --> 00:28:51,695 around it and hopefully a lot more action too, but yeah, I think Austin, 468 00:28:52,415 --> 00:28:55,165 even for Austinites, there's like a love hate relationship with it. 469 00:28:55,654 --> 00:28:58,544 So, I think you're naming all the right things as someone who's been 470 00:28:58,544 --> 00:29:00,365 here for a couple of years now. 471 00:29:00,980 --> 00:29:01,730 You're catching it.... 472 00:29:01,740 --> 00:29:02,080 so, 473 00:29:02,170 --> 00:29:02,600 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah. 474 00:29:02,740 --> 00:29:03,000 Yeah. 475 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,330 And I think maybe the other thing that's different for me is just 476 00:29:05,330 --> 00:29:09,980 driving because other places that I lived, I was more reliant on the 477 00:29:09,980 --> 00:29:14,050 Metro or the subway and here having to drive everywhere is different, 478 00:29:14,050 --> 00:29:17,840 but I actually, I thought that would bother me more, but it actually hasn't. 479 00:29:18,189 --> 00:29:20,689 Minh Vu: I don't mind a commute. 480 00:29:20,759 --> 00:29:24,399 I live like way South Austin and I used to live like way North Austin. 481 00:29:24,399 --> 00:29:30,429 So I'd like go down to UT and like a podcast jamming out to music or even 482 00:29:30,429 --> 00:29:35,010 like, we'll talk about self care here in a second, but like being able to be 483 00:29:35,010 --> 00:29:40,839 in the car just alone with myself and like, it's a space it has been in the 484 00:29:40,839 --> 00:29:45,649 past, a space for me to really be able to just decompress in some ways and 485 00:29:45,649 --> 00:29:51,490 like, yeah, feel, feel like I can be alone with my thoughts in a good way. 486 00:29:51,999 --> 00:29:55,309 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, well, it's a transition space that when you don't have 487 00:29:55,309 --> 00:29:57,590 it, yeah, it's like abrupt, the change. 488 00:29:57,809 --> 00:29:58,160 Minh Vu: Yeah. 489 00:29:58,925 --> 00:30:03,335 Sandra Pham: Yeah, so you mentioned kind of the pandemic was a big catalyst for you 490 00:30:03,335 --> 00:30:05,635 and Justin to kind of move down to Texas. 491 00:30:06,425 --> 00:30:11,604 To me, it seems like the pandemic really also shifted a lot of things for a 492 00:30:11,604 --> 00:30:15,235 lot of folks because we had a lot of time that we were spending at home. 493 00:30:16,015 --> 00:30:17,789 Self care definitely has really shifted. 494 00:30:17,970 --> 00:30:20,160 Really grown into a buzzword. 495 00:30:20,220 --> 00:30:24,170 A lot of folks are like, really trying to figure out and define what that means. 496 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:29,339 A lot of your work is really again, researched around redefining wellness. 497 00:30:29,360 --> 00:30:30,770 What is faux self care? 498 00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,069 Why do you think self care is resonating with so many folks right now? 499 00:30:35,319 --> 00:30:38,209 Was the pandemic a big catalyst in all of this? 500 00:30:38,209 --> 00:30:40,159 Or do you think it always existed? 501 00:30:40,169 --> 00:30:44,319 And now we're just spending more times investing in ourselves? 502 00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,860 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: So, you know, when I was writing the book, I was 503 00:30:46,870 --> 00:30:52,640 researching the term self care and I found that an interesting statistic that 504 00:30:53,030 --> 00:30:58,799 Google searches for self care peaked the day after Donald Trump's election. 505 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:05,070 Of course, the pandemic impacted it for sure, and definitely has put mental 506 00:31:05,070 --> 00:31:08,890 health, I think, more at the forefront of people's minds, but I also think 507 00:31:08,919 --> 00:31:14,050 that the upheaval that we've experienced collectively in the United States from 508 00:31:14,089 --> 00:31:17,449 a political standpoint and also all of the, you know, racial reckonings 509 00:31:17,490 --> 00:31:21,620 that have happened, you know, after George Floyd's murder, like, I think 510 00:31:21,630 --> 00:31:27,000 that all of those different pivotal moments are the type of thing that 511 00:31:27,475 --> 00:31:29,465 does sort of define a generation. 512 00:31:30,125 --> 00:31:36,164 And I think that and you know, we see in Gen Z in particular being so open about 513 00:31:36,165 --> 00:31:39,085 mental health and guarding their peace. 514 00:31:40,005 --> 00:31:42,505 So I think all of that comes into play. 515 00:31:42,685 --> 00:31:48,645 I will say, though, even before I would say like I graduated residency in 2016. 516 00:31:48,665 --> 00:31:52,085 And so I think even then I would have patients who were coming in 517 00:31:52,085 --> 00:31:53,415 and they were saying, you know, "Dr. 518 00:31:53,415 --> 00:31:54,534 Lakshmin, I'm stressed out. 519 00:31:54,544 --> 00:31:55,375 I'm burnt out. 520 00:31:55,715 --> 00:31:56,485 I'm not sleeping well. 521 00:31:56,485 --> 00:31:57,405 I'm not eating well. 522 00:31:57,465 --> 00:32:01,205 And I feel like it's my fault because I have the meditation app 523 00:32:01,355 --> 00:32:03,724 on my phone that I could be using. 524 00:32:04,915 --> 00:32:06,965 I just can't motivate myself to do it." 525 00:32:07,185 --> 00:32:09,555 So I think that's been there. 526 00:32:09,555 --> 00:32:13,905 It's probably just proliferated as people also were spending more and more of 527 00:32:13,905 --> 00:32:16,620 their lives in the digital world too. 528 00:32:17,330 --> 00:32:21,700 Minh Vu: I just had a question come up in my head, but like this idea of like 529 00:32:21,700 --> 00:32:27,079 holistic medicine integrating, I feel like I've heard a lot of conversation around 530 00:32:27,130 --> 00:32:33,560 what is defined in within insurance that's covered versus like some of the other 531 00:32:33,570 --> 00:32:39,340 practices that people might put self care or like wellness or other things into it. 532 00:32:39,410 --> 00:32:44,440 I'm curious if you have any like reactions or thoughts to that as a concept or 533 00:32:44,440 --> 00:32:47,215 practice or like medical evolution? 534 00:32:47,515 --> 00:32:48,105 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah. 535 00:32:48,125 --> 00:32:51,075 Well, maybe I'll answer that and then I can talk about the difference between 536 00:32:51,075 --> 00:32:52,715 faux self care and real self care. 537 00:32:53,125 --> 00:32:53,365 Yeah. 538 00:32:53,395 --> 00:32:54,075 Tied together. 539 00:32:54,565 --> 00:32:54,855 Yeah. 540 00:32:54,855 --> 00:32:58,234 I mean, I think there, there definitely is a lot more of like holistic 541 00:32:58,234 --> 00:33:02,654 medicine, integrative medicine, and then all of the kind of complimentary 542 00:33:02,654 --> 00:33:06,755 modalities, like things like, you know, like yoga, meditation, breathwork, 543 00:33:06,795 --> 00:33:09,165 craniosacral, reiki, like all this stuff. 544 00:33:09,165 --> 00:33:11,745 And, you know, that was one of the reasons, like kind of feeling 545 00:33:11,765 --> 00:33:16,595 disillusioned with psychiatry was one of the reasons that I fell so deep into the 546 00:33:16,595 --> 00:33:20,835 wellness world, sort of exploring all of these different alternative modalities. 547 00:33:21,245 --> 00:33:26,670 And I think what my take is that there are some things that are evidence based. 548 00:33:26,670 --> 00:33:29,070 You know, yoga definitely has evidence. 549 00:33:29,070 --> 00:33:35,320 Like, exercise in general, movement, diet, nutrition has an evidence base. 550 00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:36,500 Meditation, too. 551 00:33:36,929 --> 00:33:43,070 But all, none of those things singularly, is going to treat a major 552 00:33:43,070 --> 00:33:48,520 depressive disorder or a diagnosis of PTSD or obsessive compulsive disorder. 553 00:33:48,950 --> 00:33:55,229 They will help as part of your overall program for having a healthier life, 554 00:33:55,630 --> 00:34:00,450 but they're not going to substitute for taking medication if you have 555 00:34:00,490 --> 00:34:01,914 moderate to severe depression. 556 00:34:02,505 --> 00:34:07,335 Psychiatric conditions, and I think that we lose that nuance, right? 557 00:34:07,335 --> 00:34:10,205 Like people want to just kind of have it be one or the other. 558 00:34:10,205 --> 00:34:14,095 And there's a lot of polarization and, you know, demonization of different things. 559 00:34:14,125 --> 00:34:18,974 I think also that, you know, holistic and integrative medicine came about 560 00:34:18,974 --> 00:34:22,815 because people feel like mainstream medicine is not serving them. 561 00:34:23,605 --> 00:34:28,425 In particular, women, they feel dismissed and they feel like their concerns are not 562 00:34:28,425 --> 00:34:33,214 being properly addressed or they're being brushed off or, you know, they're just 563 00:34:33,245 --> 00:34:34,764 kind of being told, Oh, no, it's fine. 564 00:34:34,765 --> 00:34:36,585 It's just anxiety or whatever. 565 00:34:36,634 --> 00:34:41,415 And maybe there is anxiety too, but that doesn't mean that you should be dismissed. 566 00:34:41,415 --> 00:34:45,029 So I think it's important to keep in mind that these alternative meds. 567 00:34:45,190 --> 00:34:47,190 Practices come up because of a need. 568 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,370 And then the last thing I'll say is that from what I've seen, 569 00:34:50,420 --> 00:34:54,839 there are great practitioners in all of these different areas. 570 00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,900 And there are bad practitioners in all of these different areas. 571 00:34:59,210 --> 00:35:06,050 So it really is about the person and whether they are professional and 572 00:35:06,240 --> 00:35:10,300 licensed, if there's licensing, but they have integrity and they're staying 573 00:35:10,310 --> 00:35:14,290 in their lane and they know when something is out of their scope and 574 00:35:14,290 --> 00:35:18,860 they say, oh, actually, you know, you should go over here to check that out. 575 00:35:19,590 --> 00:35:23,000 And unfortunately, I don't think we can, or maybe not unfortunately, but 576 00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:25,939 just I think we can't make blanket statements about any one thing and 577 00:35:25,940 --> 00:35:28,020 just sort of be polarized about it. 578 00:35:28,050 --> 00:35:32,960 So that's the advice that I would give folks who maybe are trying to think 579 00:35:32,970 --> 00:35:37,990 about what type of practitioners to see and how to go about choosing. 580 00:35:38,660 --> 00:35:43,410 The whole concept of faux self care versus real self care is I define 581 00:35:43,410 --> 00:35:47,950 faux self care as a product or a service that you're doing or buying 582 00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,780 in order to make yourself feel better. 583 00:35:50,810 --> 00:35:54,320 So it's kind of a band aid that you put on the different problems that you're 584 00:35:54,330 --> 00:35:58,030 having, whether you're stressed out or you're burnt out or you're whatever kind 585 00:35:58,030 --> 00:35:59,870 of the issue is that you're feeling. 586 00:36:00,260 --> 00:36:04,550 And in a capitalist society, we are encouraged to buy things. 587 00:36:04,900 --> 00:36:08,070 And when we have feelings, we're encouraged to have buy 588 00:36:08,100 --> 00:36:09,379 things to make us feel better. 589 00:36:10,355 --> 00:36:13,285 Faux self care always keeps the status quo as it is. 590 00:36:13,905 --> 00:36:18,915 It doesn't cause you to re examine the power dynamics in your relationships, 591 00:36:19,365 --> 00:36:23,285 or in your family system, or in your workplace, or your community. 592 00:36:23,595 --> 00:36:26,854 Real self care, on the other hand, is an internal process. 593 00:36:27,085 --> 00:36:29,475 It's a verb, it's not a noun. 594 00:36:30,065 --> 00:36:31,985 I define it as four principles. 595 00:36:32,025 --> 00:36:34,975 Boundaries, compassion, values, and power. 596 00:36:35,555 --> 00:36:40,055 And when you start practicing these principles, you will naturally notice 597 00:36:40,135 --> 00:36:44,414 a shift in power dynamics in your family, in your relationships, in 598 00:36:44,414 --> 00:36:47,735 your wider networks, because once you start setting boundaries, other 599 00:36:47,735 --> 00:36:50,605 people are going to start responding to that and treating you differently. 600 00:36:51,135 --> 00:36:55,365 The other thing that's important with real self care is you can't buy it. 601 00:36:55,970 --> 00:36:58,340 It's not something that you can just check off a list. 602 00:36:58,720 --> 00:36:59,750 It's a practice. 603 00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,820 It's something that you have to learn sort of like working out, like developing 604 00:37:03,820 --> 00:37:09,490 these muscles, but it stays with you as a lifelong thing, and it's also not 605 00:37:09,490 --> 00:37:13,319 prescriptive in the way like everybody has that friend that's like super into 606 00:37:13,320 --> 00:37:15,049 like soul cycle or whatever it is. 607 00:37:15,049 --> 00:37:16,760 And they're like, always like, "Oh, my God, just do this. 608 00:37:16,890 --> 00:37:17,660 This is the thing." 609 00:37:18,100 --> 00:37:19,590 And you're like, "I hate soul cycle." 610 00:37:20,230 --> 00:37:21,860 There's not one wellness practice. 611 00:37:21,860 --> 00:37:25,099 There's not one form of self care that's going to be the thing for everybody. 612 00:37:25,099 --> 00:37:28,960 So with real self care, it's like, no, you need to find your own through the 613 00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:31,700 boundaries, compassion, values, and power. 614 00:37:32,130 --> 00:37:36,630 It's not that the faux self care is bad or evil or terrible. 615 00:37:36,630 --> 00:37:38,590 It's just that the faux it's a tool. 616 00:37:39,100 --> 00:37:39,870 It's a method. 617 00:37:40,220 --> 00:37:44,490 Whereas the principles, are a principle. 618 00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:49,530 So a principle you can make your own versus a method is circumscribed for a 619 00:37:49,530 --> 00:37:52,560 specific use in a specific situation. 620 00:37:52,910 --> 00:37:54,850 So to bring this to life, because this is all like a little bit 621 00:37:54,860 --> 00:37:58,690 heady, a good example is imagine somebody that goes to a yoga class. 622 00:37:59,790 --> 00:38:03,950 You go to Black Swan, and they're on their yoga mat the whole time, worried 623 00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:08,740 that they're not wearing the right Lululemon leggings, and like, the person 624 00:38:08,740 --> 00:38:12,300 next to them can hold a headstand, and they're like, "oh, like, I can't even 625 00:38:12,300 --> 00:38:18,555 do crow pose," and they leave for like, the yoga class more in their head than 626 00:38:18,565 --> 00:38:22,025 before they started, like they feel worse after yoga than they did before 627 00:38:22,025 --> 00:38:27,864 yoga versus somebody who practices real self care and, you know, sets boundaries 628 00:38:27,894 --> 00:38:31,464 with her partner, let's say, and says, you know, I need to go to once a week. 629 00:38:31,464 --> 00:38:36,865 So can you be the one to do dinnertime with our kids or bedtime so I can do this? 630 00:38:36,895 --> 00:38:39,935 And you're compassionate with yourself when some of that yeah. 631 00:38:40,325 --> 00:38:42,535 Critical self talk comes up. 632 00:38:42,885 --> 00:38:47,155 You don't let it consume you and you have named your values. 633 00:38:47,155 --> 00:38:49,135 You know why yoga is important to you. 634 00:38:49,185 --> 00:38:52,414 Maybe it's because you like being in community and your yoga studio 635 00:38:52,435 --> 00:38:54,155 is one of your places of community. 636 00:38:54,155 --> 00:38:57,955 Or maybe for you, it's more about being in your body and the physicality. 637 00:38:58,225 --> 00:39:01,695 And then you recognize that is actually power like you taking it. 638 00:39:02,035 --> 00:39:10,614 Your time and your energy outside of our productivity system to fuel yourself, that 639 00:39:10,614 --> 00:39:15,845 person actually takes in the medicine of yoga like they're actually present, but 640 00:39:15,845 --> 00:39:19,245 both of those people, like, if you just look at it superficially, they checked, 641 00:39:19,274 --> 00:39:21,045 like, went to yoga off their list. 642 00:39:21,995 --> 00:39:22,965 Minh Vu: Yeah, that's helpful. 643 00:39:23,285 --> 00:39:28,035 Am I right in maybe understanding that it's really using a combination 644 00:39:28,035 --> 00:39:32,995 of the principles that you've laid out and finding which tools are... 645 00:39:33,325 --> 00:39:37,285 live within those principles that you've identified for yourself. 646 00:39:37,764 --> 00:39:41,774 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: So, yes, and so, yes, in terms of finding 647 00:39:41,775 --> 00:39:43,655 your kind of wellness practice. 648 00:39:43,970 --> 00:39:45,380 That is absolutely right. 649 00:39:45,770 --> 00:39:48,680 There's kind of like a second level of real self care. 650 00:39:48,680 --> 00:39:54,249 I would say like the 400, like if that's the one on one is then applying it to 651 00:39:54,250 --> 00:39:57,010 actually like big decisions in your life. 652 00:39:58,270 --> 00:39:59,970 What do I want my career to be? 653 00:40:00,109 --> 00:40:01,779 Do I want to have kids or not? 654 00:40:02,045 --> 00:40:03,655 Who do I want a life partner? 655 00:40:04,685 --> 00:40:05,365 Like in those... 656 00:40:05,365 --> 00:40:09,645 and that doesn't happen overnight that happens over time, many years, 657 00:40:10,095 --> 00:40:15,135 like we do need the 101, we need something to help us be able to 658 00:40:15,614 --> 00:40:17,854 kind of get through the day to day. 659 00:40:18,580 --> 00:40:21,750 And once you kind of start building that muscle, then it becomes also a little 660 00:40:21,750 --> 00:40:25,630 bit easier to see that you can apply this more widely to other decisions 661 00:40:25,630 --> 00:40:26,850 that you're making in your life. 662 00:40:27,739 --> 00:40:30,730 Sandra Pham: Yeah, I think so much of what you've said is so true. 663 00:40:30,739 --> 00:40:35,669 We are a very capitalist or capitalism, like, just driven society, right? 664 00:40:35,669 --> 00:40:40,109 So we are constantly thrown messages of what self care is. 665 00:40:40,330 --> 00:40:41,470 And I think it's hard. 666 00:40:41,930 --> 00:40:43,780 As an individual to navigate. 667 00:40:43,780 --> 00:40:44,500 Well, what does that mean? 668 00:40:44,500 --> 00:40:46,910 Does that mean just taking care of my body or, oh, that 669 00:40:46,910 --> 00:40:48,110 means going to therapy, right? 670 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:54,460 Like there's so many various ways organizations, people define self care. 671 00:40:54,460 --> 00:40:59,129 And I think it's really hard to muddle through all of that and figure 672 00:40:59,129 --> 00:41:00,520 out what does that actually mean? 673 00:41:00,530 --> 00:41:01,770 How can I apply it? 674 00:41:02,260 --> 00:41:04,940 In my life, and so I really appreciate the example that 675 00:41:04,940 --> 00:41:05,890 you just walked through there. 676 00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:10,390 I think that was really visually or for me helpful. 677 00:41:11,150 --> 00:41:12,700 Minh Vu: What I'm hearing is principles are... 678 00:41:12,720 --> 00:41:17,220 really like firming up on your individual principles and what matters to you is 679 00:41:17,220 --> 00:41:22,390 a nice compass and like, North Star to then help you make decisions about a 680 00:41:22,390 --> 00:41:26,130 lot of aspects of your life and you can maybe start with like what are these 681 00:41:26,130 --> 00:41:31,290 tools that can help me bring a little bit more peace to my day to day so that 682 00:41:31,349 --> 00:41:35,819 maybe you're well resourced to then make larger big decisions in your life 683 00:41:35,870 --> 00:41:40,750 that still live by the principles you're using to help you bring your maybe more 684 00:41:40,750 --> 00:41:42,540 day to day peace through these tools. 685 00:41:42,850 --> 00:41:45,870 I definitely like the person that would probably be too self conscious to go 686 00:41:45,870 --> 00:41:48,030 to yoga, so that's not my tool of use. 687 00:41:48,309 --> 00:41:53,219 Building Legos at home by myself, like, that is, that brings me peace, that 688 00:41:53,219 --> 00:41:57,079 brings me joy, and that helps clear my mind so that I can, like, think 689 00:41:57,079 --> 00:42:02,290 about Larger things like my career, relationships, boundaries that I'm 690 00:42:02,290 --> 00:42:04,660 trying to set and how I want to set them. 691 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:08,600 And I think that's what I'm hearing is kind of this like 101 up to the 692 00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:12,750 400 type of thing of approaching real self care in your life. 693 00:42:13,350 --> 00:42:14,359 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yes, yes. 694 00:42:14,429 --> 00:42:18,280 And the only thing that I would add to that great summary, your 695 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,210 summary was much better than mine, would be that it's always changing. 696 00:42:22,220 --> 00:42:23,220 Like it never ends. 697 00:42:23,220 --> 00:42:23,234 Minh Vu: Mmm. 698 00:42:23,595 --> 00:42:27,015 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: It's because you always have to keep taking care of 699 00:42:27,015 --> 00:42:30,925 yourself as long as you're alive, and your context is always changing. 700 00:42:31,015 --> 00:42:34,545 You're always moving into different roles, you're in a new job. 701 00:42:34,905 --> 00:42:37,955 You break up with someone, you know, somebody passes away, right? 702 00:42:37,955 --> 00:42:41,225 There's always going to be changes in the context. 703 00:42:41,255 --> 00:42:44,864 And so that, so then you'll find yourself probably stumbling a little 704 00:42:44,865 --> 00:42:47,185 bit and falling into old patterns. 705 00:42:47,585 --> 00:42:49,534 And that's to be expected for sure. 706 00:42:49,945 --> 00:42:52,924 But as you move along, you'll catch yourself more quickly. 707 00:42:53,104 --> 00:42:53,514 Minh Vu: Yeah. 708 00:42:53,594 --> 00:42:54,965 I really appreciate you naming that. 709 00:42:54,965 --> 00:42:55,845 Cause I feel like. 710 00:42:56,190 --> 00:42:59,490 As someone that struggles with rigidity or just like the concept of 711 00:42:59,490 --> 00:43:01,330 like, okay, this is the right way. 712 00:43:01,530 --> 00:43:06,150 And that means that's the final, like finite way to then navigate life. 713 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,729 But as you mentioned, life continues to evolve and your situation changes. 714 00:43:10,730 --> 00:43:14,710 And it's okay to make adjustments as those things happen, as long 715 00:43:14,710 --> 00:43:16,410 as they feel true and good to you. 716 00:43:26,100 --> 00:43:29,700 I want to maybe apply some of this to another type of example that 717 00:43:29,720 --> 00:43:34,260 our listeners might more resonate with being Asian Americans. 718 00:43:34,620 --> 00:43:38,839 You know, you mentioned those four principles, setting boundaries, learning 719 00:43:38,839 --> 00:43:42,990 to deal with guilt, developing self compassion, how you talk to yourself, 720 00:43:43,020 --> 00:43:47,680 and then getting clear on those values to make future decisions in life. 721 00:43:48,130 --> 00:43:53,325 As you k now, in a lot of Asian cultures, children of like immigrant parents can, 722 00:43:54,055 --> 00:43:57,365 I think you mentioned at the beginning, being parentified at an early age 723 00:43:57,395 --> 00:44:01,924 or feeling like they have a lot of responsibility at a young age, not only 724 00:44:01,945 --> 00:44:06,814 for themselves, but in some cases for their parents to, to kind of this concept 725 00:44:06,814 --> 00:44:12,065 of kind of like repaying your parents for a life that they weren't afforded 726 00:44:12,295 --> 00:44:14,195 because of the sacrifices that they made. 727 00:44:14,665 --> 00:44:18,975 And I can speak for myself where sometimes I- I've done a lot of work to 728 00:44:18,975 --> 00:44:21,895 not have that be this type of like... 729 00:44:22,555 --> 00:44:27,285 repaying them be my North Star for life because it doesn't necessarily serve me 730 00:44:27,285 --> 00:44:31,864 and my individual wants and desires, but there is an aspect that I still want to 731 00:44:31,964 --> 00:44:38,164 honor that I do feel like is a positive value to want to incorporate some sort 732 00:44:38,164 --> 00:44:43,699 of respect and repayment or just desire to honor what their experiences have 733 00:44:43,699 --> 00:44:49,019 been so I guess this is a long way to set up the question of what advice you 734 00:44:49,039 --> 00:44:53,929 give people whose values still kind of embody family and the desire to show 735 00:44:53,929 --> 00:44:58,789 that love and respect to them, but it also might conflict with this new paradigm 736 00:44:58,789 --> 00:45:03,129 of prioritizing yourself first and then the guilt that kind of comes with it? 737 00:45:04,049 --> 00:45:05,209 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I love this question. 738 00:45:05,469 --> 00:45:08,519 My answer is going to be very long winded because I have a couple different things. 739 00:45:08,639 --> 00:45:09,139 It's all good. 740 00:45:09,139 --> 00:45:10,709 I feel like it's a complex thing. 741 00:45:11,129 --> 00:45:11,549 Totally. 742 00:45:11,859 --> 00:45:17,224 So, so I guess the first thing is of course, you will feel that way, 743 00:45:17,264 --> 00:45:21,564 like, the goal is not to change your personality completely, right? 744 00:45:21,574 --> 00:45:27,914 If you've spent your whole life living with this conceptualization of, you know, 745 00:45:27,944 --> 00:45:33,414 my job is to make my parents proud and to make sure that all the sacrifices 746 00:45:33,444 --> 00:45:38,724 that they made were worth it, then that's always going to be part of your life-- 747 00:45:39,744 --> 00:45:42,234 upbringing or your kind of your blueprint. 748 00:45:43,024 --> 00:45:45,154 So we're not saying that's going to completely go away. 749 00:45:45,174 --> 00:45:48,484 And, and like you said, I liked your point that it's not totally bad. 750 00:45:48,644 --> 00:45:54,784 Many cultures have a history and tradition of honoring elders and 751 00:45:54,784 --> 00:46:00,024 kind of showing and paying respect to the wisdom of the generation before. 752 00:46:00,454 --> 00:46:03,184 So I want to set it up by saying like that it's... 753 00:46:03,849 --> 00:46:05,749 it's not a bad thing to feel this way. 754 00:46:06,479 --> 00:46:10,429 And yes, you will, you'll always have this conflict or this tension. 755 00:46:11,099 --> 00:46:16,289 You'll know that you're moving in a direction of healthier. 756 00:46:16,549 --> 00:46:22,429 I guess you'll know that you're moving in a direction of being at peace with the 757 00:46:22,429 --> 00:46:28,339 fact that you will always be in some level of this conflict when you're not angry at 758 00:46:28,339 --> 00:46:33,289 your parents, when you can make a choice. 759 00:46:33,739 --> 00:46:37,759 Food, I think food is always one of the ones that this falls around, and I, I'll 760 00:46:37,759 --> 00:46:41,729 just give an example for me years ago, but like in college, my mom would bring 761 00:46:41,789 --> 00:46:46,649 all of this Indian food to my dorm, like all sorts of Indian, South Indian 762 00:46:46,649 --> 00:46:51,479 food, and I would never eat any of it, but I always felt so bad, and so then 763 00:46:51,479 --> 00:46:55,359 it would just be in the freezer, and then when she would come the next time, 764 00:46:55,359 --> 00:46:58,179 like, I had to give her the Tupperwares, you know, because, like, they saved all 765 00:46:58,179 --> 00:47:02,809 the cool containers, and it was just, like, this cycle of guilt and guilt. 766 00:47:03,349 --> 00:47:06,319 Like, I have patients now where they feel really bad with Asian 767 00:47:06,579 --> 00:47:09,829 parents of saying no to food, like, parents often, like, bring food. 768 00:47:10,659 --> 00:47:13,839 So, where you can say, you know, we don't need that right now, or, like, 769 00:47:13,859 --> 00:47:18,599 we're okay, and not feel angry, and then also not feel consumed with guilt. 770 00:47:19,069 --> 00:47:21,709 If you feel consumed with guilt, that means that you have 771 00:47:21,709 --> 00:47:23,179 more work to do in therapy. 772 00:47:23,904 --> 00:47:31,844 The place that you want to get to is to be able to name what the ideal scenario 773 00:47:31,884 --> 00:47:37,424 is and have that be aligned with your values and something that you've named. 774 00:47:37,434 --> 00:47:41,584 Like, maybe you can say for yourself, like, this is arbitrary, 775 00:47:41,584 --> 00:47:47,434 but say on each of my birthdays, it's important for me to have my 776 00:47:47,434 --> 00:47:50,974 parents bring food from our culture. 777 00:47:51,314 --> 00:47:54,984 And I want that to be something that is included at the table 778 00:47:55,114 --> 00:47:56,274 when we're having dinner. 779 00:47:56,664 --> 00:48:00,054 And that might have a very specific meaning for you and 780 00:48:00,054 --> 00:48:01,354 signify something in that. 781 00:48:01,664 --> 00:48:02,984 And that's your own thing. 782 00:48:03,729 --> 00:48:08,969 So when you can kind of move in that direction and then not get angry, if on 783 00:48:08,969 --> 00:48:13,449 top of that, your mom or your dad, like, makes some sort of comment about it being 784 00:48:13,449 --> 00:48:17,709 the wrong thing or like, blah, blah, blah, whatever drama happens, letting 785 00:48:17,709 --> 00:48:23,299 that happen, just letting it happen and not getting enmeshed into it and letting 786 00:48:23,299 --> 00:48:25,979 it ruin the meaning that it has for you. 787 00:48:26,539 --> 00:48:30,639 And your parents might not understand why that specific thing 788 00:48:30,729 --> 00:48:33,529 has the meaning and that's okay. 789 00:48:34,209 --> 00:48:36,729 I think that's a place where a lot of people get stuck. 790 00:48:37,059 --> 00:48:41,889 You spend too much energy believing that you're going to be able to change your 791 00:48:41,889 --> 00:48:46,599 parents mind or that they're going to be able to understand where you're coming 792 00:48:46,599 --> 00:48:50,089 from and why you're making different decisions and setting boundaries and 793 00:48:50,099 --> 00:48:51,449 doing things a little bit differently. 794 00:48:51,929 --> 00:48:56,689 They will never completely understand and that's okay. 795 00:48:57,539 --> 00:49:02,599 When you get to a place of acceptance, that's when you know that you're 796 00:49:02,599 --> 00:49:04,219 kind of on the right track. 797 00:49:04,589 --> 00:49:05,559 Does that make sense? 798 00:49:05,759 --> 00:49:10,349 Minh Vu: Yeah, I think it's that level of tension that you might feel when you're 799 00:49:10,379 --> 00:49:14,429 feeling, really I think what we're talking about is the in between, that in between 800 00:49:14,429 --> 00:49:19,664 feeling that of this like, for me I'll just say the, I think growing up being 801 00:49:19,664 --> 00:49:25,074 born and raised in the States, there's a bigger lean to like individualism maybe, 802 00:49:25,394 --> 00:49:30,804 versus Asian cultures that really promote kind of this collective prioritization. 803 00:49:31,144 --> 00:49:35,084 And figuring out, well, there's parts of it that I really appreciate and like 804 00:49:35,184 --> 00:49:41,589 growing up, and there's some that just feel so in contradiction of the aspects of 805 00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:46,649 this individualistic culture or like thing that really resonates with me or feels 806 00:49:46,669 --> 00:49:48,369 aligned with how I want to live my life. 807 00:49:48,759 --> 00:49:52,819 And what I'm hearing maybe is that once there's a little bit of acceptance 808 00:49:52,819 --> 00:49:55,429 that tug will always be there... 809 00:49:55,779 --> 00:50:02,369 It's a matter of how much that tension is impacting the way that you navigate life. 810 00:50:03,039 --> 00:50:05,869 Maybe not navigate life, but yeah, that tension how much it like 811 00:50:05,939 --> 00:50:08,899 dictates your reactions to things or 812 00:50:08,959 --> 00:50:11,139 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: yeah, how much distress it causes you Yeah, 813 00:50:11,149 --> 00:50:16,429 Minh Vu: yeah, that's where you'll notice as less distress happens over 814 00:50:16,429 --> 00:50:21,839 time you're starting to really embody those values that you want to live by. 815 00:50:22,089 --> 00:50:22,389 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yes. 816 00:50:22,569 --> 00:50:24,709 And the only other thing I would add there is that it's 817 00:50:24,709 --> 00:50:26,739 okay to pick and choose, right? 818 00:50:26,749 --> 00:50:30,229 Because what the generation before probably would ideally 819 00:50:30,229 --> 00:50:31,529 want is that you take everything. 820 00:50:31,529 --> 00:50:32,449 You do all the things. 821 00:50:32,449 --> 00:50:35,539 All of your kids know the language, you're eating the food all the time, 822 00:50:35,539 --> 00:50:36,859 like everyone goes to this, right? 823 00:50:37,609 --> 00:50:39,279 And you get to decide. 824 00:50:39,299 --> 00:50:40,809 And it will take time. 825 00:50:40,869 --> 00:50:45,229 It will take many years for you to land. 826 00:50:46,284 --> 00:50:47,904 On the right equilibrium. 827 00:50:47,904 --> 00:50:52,484 So I just want to also name that like, don't beat yourself up for skewing one 828 00:50:52,484 --> 00:50:56,074 way or the other, because you will as you're navigating this, you're figuring 829 00:50:56,154 --> 00:51:02,524 this out to alongside helping heal some of the intergenerational wounds. 830 00:51:03,399 --> 00:51:07,019 Sandra Pham: And I think what I'm hearing is that it's also flexible as 831 00:51:07,029 --> 00:51:13,589 you continue to recognize these things that there's a constant conversation 832 00:51:13,589 --> 00:51:17,689 that you have with yourself of what feels comfortable and right for you. 833 00:51:18,159 --> 00:51:23,629 And once you recognize that and what your threshold is and when you say that's okay. 834 00:51:23,969 --> 00:51:26,899 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Sandra I just want to say I like that you mentioned that it's 835 00:51:26,899 --> 00:51:30,349 a conversation with you that you have with yourself, and it's important to know 836 00:51:30,350 --> 00:51:33,979 that you probably won't be able to have that conversation with your parents, and 837 00:51:33,979 --> 00:51:38,389 that's okay, and maybe you will at some point, but your goal should not be to 838 00:51:38,389 --> 00:51:39,949 have the conversation with your parents. 839 00:51:41,079 --> 00:51:46,609 Sandra Pham: Yes, that is just on a personal note, something I constantly 840 00:51:46,619 --> 00:51:51,179 work on and reconciling and just acceptance of these are likely 841 00:51:51,179 --> 00:51:56,159 conversations that I will never have out loud with my parents, but they are 842 00:51:56,489 --> 00:51:58,079 conversations that I have within myself. 843 00:51:58,079 --> 00:52:02,569 So that struck a note there, but I want to move in this topic. 844 00:52:02,569 --> 00:52:05,869 I think is very interconnected with what we're discussing here, but 845 00:52:06,179 --> 00:52:10,379 something else that you discussed and I know you even hosted a panel around 846 00:52:10,379 --> 00:52:14,799 this is intergenerational trauma when we're discussing our parents. 847 00:52:14,819 --> 00:52:19,159 There are a lot of beliefs and behaviors of our culture that we 848 00:52:19,169 --> 00:52:21,789 inherit from our families or ancestors. 849 00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,119 Some of them may remain unconscious. 850 00:52:24,129 --> 00:52:29,689 Some of them don't as, as you start to invest more in discovering your own values 851 00:52:29,689 --> 00:52:32,319 and again, figuring out how much of. 852 00:52:32,954 --> 00:52:37,914 What your parents expectations and all of that you work and invest in. 853 00:52:38,024 --> 00:52:41,794 I'm curious through this session in this panel that you've had in discussions that 854 00:52:41,794 --> 00:52:46,914 you host, how do we consciously disrupt some of these intergenerational traumas? 855 00:52:47,104 --> 00:52:50,694 How do we even begin to begin the work and scratch the surface? 856 00:52:51,374 --> 00:52:53,514 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yeah, I mean, I think it's a really big topic. 857 00:52:53,514 --> 00:52:56,594 We could spend an hour talking about that in itself. 858 00:52:56,624 --> 00:52:59,864 I would say actually the boundaries piece is the first start. 859 00:53:00,154 --> 00:53:04,274 The conversation we just had about how to navigate what's yours versus 860 00:53:04,274 --> 00:53:07,114 what is theirs and what is ours. 861 00:53:07,174 --> 00:53:08,544 Those three different buckets. 862 00:53:08,964 --> 00:53:15,334 That is the way in to doing some of this intergenerational trauma work 863 00:53:15,354 --> 00:53:18,364 because the thing with immigration trauma is that it's a loss. 864 00:53:19,229 --> 00:53:24,009 It's a loss of a past culture, you know, a physicality of people. 865 00:53:24,409 --> 00:53:29,149 So, the way that somebody responds to losing something is to try and 866 00:53:29,159 --> 00:53:31,089 hold onto it, to try and get it back. 867 00:53:31,619 --> 00:53:37,229 And so, the navigation of cultural traditions, and language, and food, 868 00:53:37,229 --> 00:53:38,539 and all these things, is that. 869 00:53:39,129 --> 00:53:41,719 ends up being some of the battleground. 870 00:53:42,359 --> 00:53:48,149 And I don't think that you should, it's usually not helpful to start directly. 871 00:53:48,839 --> 00:53:52,089 You have a better chance of having it be received if you come from an indirect 872 00:53:52,109 --> 00:53:54,859 place, like with boundaries, like, you know, it's not going to, it's not going 873 00:53:54,859 --> 00:53:57,649 to work if you just sort of be like, "Hey, let's have a conversation about 874 00:53:57,679 --> 00:54:00,739 intergenerational trauma, because I'm talking to my therapist about this. 875 00:54:00,739 --> 00:54:02,479 And I realized that Blah, blah, blah." 876 00:54:02,679 --> 00:54:03,879 Like, that's not going to go over well. 877 00:54:06,029 --> 00:54:08,889 Minh Vu: Yeah, as you're sharing specifically around this, like, 878 00:54:08,889 --> 00:54:12,529 boundaries topic, and I think it makes a lot of sense that being kind of the 879 00:54:12,529 --> 00:54:17,499 first step into maybe, like, disrupting this intergenerational trauma cycle. 880 00:54:17,939 --> 00:54:21,899 But, you know, I feel like a lot of people maybe in the community might 881 00:54:21,949 --> 00:54:27,299 have trouble with the sticky nature of what's their boundary versus 882 00:54:27,299 --> 00:54:29,049 my boundary versus our boundary. 883 00:54:29,319 --> 00:54:33,709 And I'm curious if like there, I know there's probably not a one size fits all 884 00:54:33,759 --> 00:54:40,449 solution to being able to sift through and like pull apart which ones actually 885 00:54:40,449 --> 00:54:43,829 is your individual boundary, like what feels good to you versus like what has 886 00:54:43,869 --> 00:54:47,299 been told to you as like a boundary. 887 00:54:47,549 --> 00:54:51,639 I'm curious if there's any sort of helpful question that someone can ask themselves 888 00:54:51,639 --> 00:54:56,189 that can make that a little bit more clear about what's my boundary versus 889 00:54:56,199 --> 00:55:00,359 the boundary that I've lived by, but it's maybe like my family's boundaries. 890 00:55:00,879 --> 00:55:04,769 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I would say collect data on things that are 891 00:55:04,769 --> 00:55:08,109 less important and see how you feel. 892 00:55:08,559 --> 00:55:11,199 Let's say a small one is like whether people take their shoes 893 00:55:11,199 --> 00:55:13,049 off when they come into your house. 894 00:55:13,439 --> 00:55:17,459 And even if that's like a clear thing for you, yes or no, maybe play around 895 00:55:17,499 --> 00:55:22,009 with either side and then see how you feel because the feeling that you get, 896 00:55:22,019 --> 00:55:25,769 like if there is like an aversion or like a feeling of disgust, then you 897 00:55:25,769 --> 00:55:30,129 know, Oh, this was, that's what it feels like when a boundary has been crossed. 898 00:55:30,284 --> 00:55:33,824 Or if you like don't really have any feelings and it's kind of like a non 899 00:55:33,824 --> 00:55:35,564 event, then you're like, Oh, okay. 900 00:55:35,564 --> 00:55:39,804 That's how I know that's what it feels like in my body when I'm a yes. 901 00:55:40,244 --> 00:55:44,314 So try that with things that are very low states because everybody's 902 00:55:45,004 --> 00:55:49,154 line is different and everybody's body responds differently. 903 00:55:49,154 --> 00:55:52,854 But the thing that will tell you is your body's response. 904 00:55:53,634 --> 00:55:54,014 Minh Vu: Yeah. 905 00:55:54,324 --> 00:55:56,644 And what I'm hearing in that example, it's like, yeah, maybe you 906 00:55:56,644 --> 00:56:00,334 lived your life with being like, I'm a no shoes inside household. 907 00:56:00,574 --> 00:56:03,864 But actually when I've like tested this thing, I don't, it doesn't 908 00:56:03,884 --> 00:56:08,234 really impact me that much when I see people wearing shoes in the house. 909 00:56:08,234 --> 00:56:12,664 And so maybe that was a boundary that I grew up with that not necessarily one 910 00:56:12,664 --> 00:56:18,874 that aligns with things that I really value or like how it impacts my feelings. 911 00:56:19,134 --> 00:56:20,314 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Yes, exactly. 912 00:56:20,714 --> 00:56:21,164 Exactly. 913 00:56:21,394 --> 00:56:21,924 Minh Vu: Appreciate that. 914 00:56:21,974 --> 00:56:22,214 Yeah. 915 00:56:22,744 --> 00:56:24,484 Sandra Pham: Yeah, and that's a good one to start with. 916 00:56:25,904 --> 00:56:27,114 Minh Vu: Yeah, very low stakes. 917 00:56:28,094 --> 00:56:29,254 I go back and forth with that one. 918 00:56:29,254 --> 00:56:31,764 I'm definitely a no shoes household, but yeah, I have 919 00:56:31,764 --> 00:56:33,784 definitely broken that for myself. 920 00:56:33,784 --> 00:56:36,694 And like, if I forget something in the house, I'm like walking 921 00:56:36,694 --> 00:56:37,694 back in the house with shoes. 922 00:56:38,209 --> 00:56:39,159 That's okay for me. 923 00:56:48,499 --> 00:56:49,339 Sandra Pham: Look, well, Dr. 924 00:56:49,339 --> 00:56:53,069 Lakshmin, we are so internally grateful. 925 00:56:53,099 --> 00:56:58,769 I personally feel like I've just gotten a really therapeutic session that I didn't 926 00:56:58,769 --> 00:57:01,489 know I was going to go through today, but it's, I think we could definitely 927 00:57:01,489 --> 00:57:03,309 spend hours on a lot of these topics. 928 00:57:03,309 --> 00:57:07,909 I think there's so much to dig here, but so appreciative of the work that you do. 929 00:57:07,909 --> 00:57:12,229 I think we would be remiss if we didn't mention a lot of the work 930 00:57:12,229 --> 00:57:14,679 that you do is really stemmed in Dr. 931 00:57:14,679 --> 00:57:15,029 Lakshmin. 932 00:57:15,264 --> 00:57:20,534 Understanding, recognizing the systemic barriers when it comes to these 933 00:57:20,614 --> 00:57:26,054 intersectional identities that we carry and have as women as, you know, being 934 00:57:26,114 --> 00:57:27,364 people of color and things like that. 935 00:57:27,364 --> 00:57:29,504 And so I just want to recognize that it's... 936 00:57:29,884 --> 00:57:34,724 we are just so grateful to have these kind of very nuanced conversations and 937 00:57:34,724 --> 00:57:40,374 feel that there is so much work to be done, but just to have the privilege of 938 00:57:40,374 --> 00:57:42,614 having the conversation, just thank you. 939 00:57:43,094 --> 00:57:45,024 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Well, it was absolutely my pleasure. 940 00:57:45,054 --> 00:57:46,384 Thank you for having me. 941 00:57:46,474 --> 00:57:47,814 I enjoyed being here with you both. 942 00:57:48,284 --> 00:57:49,544 Sandra Pham: You have an amazing book. 943 00:57:49,574 --> 00:57:51,424 It is called "Real Self-Care." 944 00:57:51,994 --> 00:57:52,914 So check that out. 945 00:57:52,934 --> 00:57:53,994 If you haven't. 946 00:57:54,389 --> 00:57:58,279 We'd like to close the episodes with our guests doing a rapid fire. 947 00:57:58,279 --> 00:58:01,819 So if you're up for it, just let us know the first thing that comes to mind. 948 00:58:01,899 --> 00:58:05,429 But before we do that, we'd like to ask all of our guests this question. 949 00:58:05,439 --> 00:58:09,149 What is your Asian American identity mean to you today? 950 00:58:09,379 --> 00:58:12,069 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: I think right now as a parent, having a little 951 00:58:12,069 --> 00:58:15,679 kid, I think I'm thinking about it a lot in terms of next generation 952 00:58:16,229 --> 00:58:18,649 and especially having a kid who is. 953 00:58:19,024 --> 00:58:24,104 biracial, and will likely be sort of ethnically ambiguous, I 954 00:58:24,104 --> 00:58:26,004 think, in terms of his skin tone. 955 00:58:26,404 --> 00:58:30,474 I'm thinking about what pieces I want him to take with him, 956 00:58:30,664 --> 00:58:31,964 and I'm not totally sure yet. 957 00:58:32,424 --> 00:58:37,404 I'm open and curious right now about my identity on that side. 958 00:58:37,914 --> 00:58:42,014 Sandra Pham: Yeah, curiosity, I think, is a wonderful way to kind of position that. 959 00:58:42,094 --> 00:58:43,434 So rapid fire, here we go. 960 00:58:43,584 --> 00:58:46,894 What is your favorite Asian snack grown up? 961 00:58:47,524 --> 00:58:48,734 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Oh, Chakli. 962 00:58:49,179 --> 00:58:51,229 Which is a South Indian like fried dough. 963 00:58:51,419 --> 00:58:52,499 It's basically just fried dough. 964 00:58:52,669 --> 00:58:52,859 Yeah. 965 00:58:53,469 --> 00:58:54,189 Sandra Pham: Oh, okay. 966 00:58:54,209 --> 00:58:57,849 Is that something that could, you could purchase packaged or is that made at home? 967 00:58:57,849 --> 00:58:59,209 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: You can get it packaged and I think 968 00:58:59,209 --> 00:59:00,869 they do have it at H Mart. 969 00:59:01,299 --> 00:59:02,199 Sandra Pham: Oh, okay. 970 00:59:02,239 --> 00:59:03,119 We'll look out for that. 971 00:59:03,629 --> 00:59:05,699 Where do you have fun in Austin? 972 00:59:06,449 --> 00:59:07,789 Oh, where do we have fun? 973 00:59:08,409 --> 00:59:10,209 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: One place that I really like is Meanwhile. 974 00:59:10,584 --> 00:59:12,774 The brewery in South Austin, 975 00:59:13,074 --> 00:59:17,384 Sandra Pham: you're a Southie, you're a Southie, that's very far from me. 976 00:59:17,384 --> 00:59:18,554 But Meanwhile-- it's a great one. 977 00:59:19,164 --> 00:59:23,874 And then is there an example or a principle that you feel 978 00:59:23,874 --> 00:59:26,354 comfortable sharing that's a self care principle for you? 979 00:59:27,074 --> 00:59:29,084 Dr. Pooja Lakshmin: Gosh, I have so many, but I talk about 980 00:59:29,124 --> 00:59:30,884 this in the book, the pause. 981 00:59:30,964 --> 00:59:33,404 So I say that the boundary is the pause. 982 00:59:33,924 --> 00:59:37,004 And then you always have three choices, yes, no, or negotiate. 983 00:59:37,444 --> 00:59:38,754 Because no always has a cost. 984 00:59:38,774 --> 00:59:42,254 So you might not always be able to say no, but you can always pause. 985 00:59:43,309 --> 00:59:43,999 Minh Vu: I love that. 986 00:59:44,389 --> 00:59:48,329 Well, just plus one to what Sandra said, it was a pleasure to be able to talk to 987 00:59:48,329 --> 00:59:50,439 you today and hear more about your story. 988 00:59:50,449 --> 00:59:53,499 Thank you for sharing and getting a little personal with us. 989 00:59:53,499 --> 00:59:54,519 I appreciate you. 990 00:59:54,799 --> 00:59:57,319 And I'm sure all of our listeners appreciate being able to learn a 991 00:59:57,319 --> 01:00:01,159 little bit more about kind of what led to the great success and book 992 01:00:01,169 --> 01:00:03,349 and journey that you're on now today. 993 01:00:03,349 --> 01:00:05,569 So thanks again for sharing that with us and I hope you 994 01:00:05,569 --> 01:00:06,809 have a great rest of the year. 995 01:00:16,569 --> 01:00:17,629 How are you doing Sandra? 996 01:00:18,724 --> 01:00:22,714 Sandra Pham: I feel like I got a free therapy session. 997 01:00:22,984 --> 01:00:24,654 Thank you so much, Dr. 998 01:00:24,654 --> 01:00:25,324 Lakshmin. 999 01:00:25,664 --> 01:00:26,854 How do we even summarize that? 1000 01:00:26,854 --> 01:00:30,404 I think there are so many thoughts in my head because a lot of these 1001 01:00:30,414 --> 01:00:34,704 topics are so close to my heart. 1002 01:00:34,744 --> 01:00:37,674 Those are real conversations I'm having with my therapist. 1003 01:00:37,674 --> 01:00:38,814 I think it's no secret. 1004 01:00:39,274 --> 01:00:41,564 I really value my therapist. 1005 01:00:41,594 --> 01:00:46,149 I've been going for four years now and a lot of these are just, 1006 01:00:46,149 --> 01:00:48,694 yeah, just resonated with me. 1007 01:00:49,139 --> 01:00:55,399 Minh Vu: Yeah, and I mean, same, like, these are conversations and topics that 1008 01:00:55,429 --> 01:01:00,969 I'm, like, actively working through in progress of, have made a lot of 1009 01:01:00,969 --> 01:01:07,139 strides in, but also still continue to figure out what works best for me, and 1010 01:01:07,169 --> 01:01:12,879 I think it was just so comforting to be able to talk to someone that gets 1011 01:01:12,879 --> 01:01:15,129 it, and that there's a shortcut there. 1012 01:01:15,824 --> 01:01:18,684 Sandra Pham: You know what, I walk away that conversation and will 1013 01:01:18,684 --> 01:01:22,454 probably for the rest of the day and just telling myself that's 1014 01:01:22,454 --> 01:01:25,644 okay, that's okay, right, like, 1015 01:01:25,654 --> 01:01:26,114 Minh Vu: yeah, 1016 01:01:26,584 --> 01:01:30,214 Sandra Pham: things shift and change your values, your boundaries, all of that. 1017 01:01:30,554 --> 01:01:32,934 Those are conversations you have with yourself. 1018 01:01:33,554 --> 01:01:36,854 But I think you also need to grant yourself the grace and permission 1019 01:01:36,854 --> 01:01:38,444 to tell yourself that's okay. 1020 01:01:38,934 --> 01:01:43,814 These are not conversations that I need validation from others, specifically 1021 01:01:43,864 --> 01:01:47,944 my parents, to ever mouth those words to me and say, that's okay. 1022 01:01:47,944 --> 01:01:52,174 I think those are things that I have to really accept. 1023 01:01:52,244 --> 01:01:54,354 And that, that's my biggest takeaway. 1024 01:01:54,354 --> 01:01:58,264 And those words sound so simple to say, that's okay. 1025 01:01:58,264 --> 01:02:00,554 But boy, that is really hard. 1026 01:02:00,914 --> 01:02:01,994 That is really hard. 1027 01:02:02,264 --> 01:02:03,674 Minh Vu: And to actually, like, feel it. 1028 01:02:04,024 --> 01:02:04,634 Yeah, and 1029 01:02:04,634 --> 01:02:05,594 Sandra Pham: not be fake about it. 1030 01:02:05,624 --> 01:02:07,494 Be like, oh, like, to actually feel. 1031 01:02:07,654 --> 01:02:10,044 Minh Vu: I don't know if it's like the millennial generation or like 1032 01:02:10,044 --> 01:02:14,424 what, but I feel like self deprecation and just being like, lol my life, I 1033 01:02:14,454 --> 01:02:16,094 don't know, that's fine, whatever. 1034 01:02:16,344 --> 01:02:20,944 It's so common and it can be helpful in some ways, but it, to what she was 1035 01:02:20,944 --> 01:02:26,129 talking about, doesn't really, getting to the root of what, You feel is true 1036 01:02:26,129 --> 01:02:30,199 for you, like actually true and knowing what that feels like and feeling good 1037 01:02:30,199 --> 01:02:34,789 about it can really make a difference in coming into that acceptance. 1038 01:02:35,039 --> 01:02:37,779 If you don't truly feel like you've come into that acceptance, there 1039 01:02:37,779 --> 01:02:42,719 will still, you'll, there might be resentment, there might be anger, like 1040 01:02:42,719 --> 01:02:48,849 she was mentioning, and those aren't necessarily sustainable emotions to have 1041 01:02:49,029 --> 01:02:50,989 every time you're encountering these. 1042 01:02:51,544 --> 01:02:54,024 Sandra Pham: I'm going to challenge you here because it's the question that 1043 01:02:54,024 --> 01:03:00,274 you asked on how to, I think, figure out what's your boundaries versus 1044 01:03:00,274 --> 01:03:03,764 someone else's versus your parents and things like that, and something 1045 01:03:03,774 --> 01:03:07,454 that she kind of positioned was the best way to really figure that out is 1046 01:03:07,454 --> 01:03:13,574 to gather data to really have those tests or whatever, what do you think 1047 01:03:13,574 --> 01:03:14,704 you're going to challenge yourself... 1048 01:03:14,704 --> 01:03:16,734 what boundary are you going to challenge yourself? 1049 01:03:16,984 --> 01:03:20,264 Minh Vu: I also had to just take a big deep breath as you 1050 01:03:20,274 --> 01:03:21,694 were asking this question. 1051 01:03:22,104 --> 01:03:24,514 And I'm going to ask you it right back at you. 1052 01:03:24,514 --> 01:03:27,054 You're not making me be the only one to answer this question. 1053 01:03:27,544 --> 01:03:33,134 I think one thing that I've noticed for me is I used to, I don't know if it's, 1054 01:03:33,184 --> 01:03:38,404 I don't think this was like, a familial boundary, like a boundary that I inherited 1055 01:03:38,404 --> 01:03:39,874 from my parents or anything like that. 1056 01:03:39,884 --> 01:03:44,774 Like, I don't think it was, but there was, I don't know, even if it's a boundary, 1057 01:03:44,774 --> 01:03:48,884 but what I'm trying to say is basically when I'm at an event or hanging with 1058 01:03:48,884 --> 01:03:54,039 friends or things like that, and I feel myself like oh, I think I'm ready to go. 1059 01:03:54,079 --> 01:03:58,739 But in the past I've just stayed I've stayed until almost like the last one... 1060 01:03:59,129 --> 01:04:04,539 almost I guess if you want to call it like FOMO or like some sort of thing that 1061 01:04:04,539 --> 01:04:09,049 I'm like missing out on something and not wanting to miss out on that then I have 1062 01:04:09,129 --> 01:04:14,179 like forced myself to stay even though my body and my feeling is like, oh, I think 1063 01:04:14,179 --> 01:04:17,459 I'm ready to go and I've definitely... 1064 01:04:17,460 --> 01:04:21,289 I've definitely I feel like I've done a lot more work to be like, 1065 01:04:21,289 --> 01:04:23,369 no, I'm going to go home now. 1066 01:04:23,429 --> 01:04:24,669 And that's fine. 1067 01:04:24,769 --> 01:04:25,939 I'm at my limit. 1068 01:04:25,979 --> 01:04:31,939 Or I used to have like three or four things scheduled in one day 1069 01:04:31,969 --> 01:04:34,129 of extracurricular activities. 1070 01:04:34,574 --> 01:04:38,304 And I think that does probably come from my parents a little bit of being always 1071 01:04:38,334 --> 01:04:43,334 busy and don't waste time, don't always be productive, always be doing something. 1072 01:04:43,874 --> 01:04:51,104 And these days I notice when like I'm out and about and I do one event and I'm like, 1073 01:04:51,104 --> 01:04:54,344 this is good, but there's like still time left in the day and I'm like, well, I 1074 01:04:54,344 --> 01:04:56,904 could maybe add on this other thing too. 1075 01:04:57,824 --> 01:05:00,544 I have that pause where I'm like, wait. 1076 01:05:00,939 --> 01:05:04,009 I don't think I actually need to add another thing to my day. 1077 01:05:04,049 --> 01:05:09,179 I can go home and building a Lego set sounds nice. 1078 01:05:09,879 --> 01:05:15,659 So I think just continuing to gather that type of data to feel more, even more 1079 01:05:15,659 --> 01:05:19,699 confident and being able to make those decisions without any sort of like regret 1080 01:05:19,719 --> 01:05:22,329 or yeah, resentment or anything like that. 1081 01:05:22,684 --> 01:05:24,364 Sandra Pham: Yeah, I think that's a good one. 1082 01:05:24,424 --> 01:05:26,954 And I know we've talked about that one and exploring that 1083 01:05:26,954 --> 01:05:28,384 one, because it's a tough one. 1084 01:05:29,004 --> 01:05:30,534 Minh Vu: I like to be around people. 1085 01:05:31,074 --> 01:05:32,104 So, yeah. 1086 01:05:32,594 --> 01:05:33,214 What about you? 1087 01:05:33,254 --> 01:05:35,464 You tell me, how are you going to challenge yourself? 1088 01:05:36,034 --> 01:05:40,094 Sandra Pham: So one that I've been working on, and I think when you 1089 01:05:40,094 --> 01:05:43,154 first hear it, it kind of feels like silly or maybe more playful, like 1090 01:05:43,154 --> 01:05:47,744 the shoe thing, but mine is around food and not feeling the need to eat. 1091 01:05:48,669 --> 01:05:50,939 Eat all of my leftovers and things. 1092 01:05:51,319 --> 01:05:51,589 Right? 1093 01:05:51,609 --> 01:05:54,389 Like I grew up in a household single mom four kids. 1094 01:05:54,449 --> 01:05:58,789 It was like if there's food in the fridge granted we are on 1095 01:05:58,789 --> 01:06:00,989 the sixth day of this leftover. 1096 01:06:01,409 --> 01:06:03,549 We are going to eat it until it is gone. 1097 01:06:03,559 --> 01:06:04,829 You do not throw out food. 1098 01:06:04,839 --> 01:06:06,909 You do not waste food. 1099 01:06:07,649 --> 01:06:11,239 I just have struggled with that so much because a I just hate I hate 1100 01:06:11,359 --> 01:06:15,229 leftovers And I hate eating the same thing and that sounds so privileged 1101 01:06:15,259 --> 01:06:21,224 because it is but feeling not so bad and guilty on just saying, like, I 1102 01:06:21,234 --> 01:06:23,974 don't need to eat this like I'm... 1103 01:06:24,014 --> 01:06:24,564 I'm done. 1104 01:06:24,574 --> 01:06:25,234 I've had it. 1105 01:06:25,234 --> 01:06:26,004 I've enjoyed it. 1106 01:06:26,284 --> 01:06:27,694 It's also probably gone bad. 1107 01:06:27,704 --> 01:06:32,044 I'm not going to force myself to eat this for the 6th day and managing 1108 01:06:32,054 --> 01:06:35,324 that because food, I think, is such a big part of the culture, 1109 01:06:35,324 --> 01:06:37,804 but also not being wasteful, right? 1110 01:06:37,804 --> 01:06:40,914 And there's figuring out how I can do that... 1111 01:06:41,534 --> 01:06:45,424 without feeling so, so guilty about it, because I do. 1112 01:06:45,714 --> 01:06:50,544 Minh Vu: Yeah, it's so funny that food is such a topic within the community. 1113 01:06:50,554 --> 01:06:54,294 Even the example that she brought up, because I have gone through the same 1114 01:06:54,304 --> 01:06:59,504 things of just feeling guilty of either taking food from my parents and then 1115 01:06:59,514 --> 01:07:05,234 like I can't eat it all and then I do have to end up returning to where but 1116 01:07:05,234 --> 01:07:09,374 does that mean like I throw out the food and then I feel guilty about that? 1117 01:07:09,954 --> 01:07:11,794 Sandra Pham: You tell your parents you like one thing. 1118 01:07:12,104 --> 01:07:12,704 I'll go. 1119 01:07:13,074 --> 01:07:16,544 I'm craving bun bo hue or whatever so it's a Vietnamese noodle dish and my 1120 01:07:16,544 --> 01:07:21,599 mom will cook for a household of like 10 people and I'm like mom I live alone. 1121 01:07:21,629 --> 01:07:21,979 Minh Vu: Oh, I know. 1122 01:07:21,980 --> 01:07:24,259 Sandra Pham: And you're not going to eat this morning, day, and 1123 01:07:24,259 --> 01:07:25,659 night, and it's going to go bad. 1124 01:07:25,979 --> 01:07:28,819 And so have I lied to her when she's like, Oh, did you eat it all? 1125 01:07:28,849 --> 01:07:32,819 Yeah, I've dumped half of it and just been like, here's your Tupperware back. 1126 01:07:33,059 --> 01:07:33,739 Minh Vu: Yeah. 1127 01:07:34,249 --> 01:07:39,179 It's a way of life of cooking for a lot of people and for it lasting 1128 01:07:39,189 --> 01:07:41,879 a lot of time because that's how they grew up and those were the 1129 01:07:41,879 --> 01:07:43,769 circumstances they had to like live by. 1130 01:07:43,809 --> 01:07:46,979 Sandra Pham: But I didn't enjoy it any less because I threw some of it out. 1131 01:07:47,304 --> 01:07:49,044 I just can't do it. 1132 01:07:49,084 --> 01:07:50,304 But anyway, so that's mine. 1133 01:07:50,684 --> 01:07:51,934 Minh Vu: Yeah, cool. 1134 01:07:52,414 --> 01:07:55,294 Well, hopefully some of this stuff resonated with you. 1135 01:07:55,294 --> 01:07:58,594 Hopefully there were some tidbits and things that you feel like you can take in 1136 01:07:58,594 --> 01:08:01,744 your day to day and apply it to your life. 1137 01:08:02,124 --> 01:08:03,344 We're all doing our best. 1138 01:08:03,664 --> 01:08:06,244 We're all, that's all we can really ask for. 1139 01:08:06,284 --> 01:08:12,409 Everyone from our parents to ourselves to our kids to just the 1140 01:08:12,409 --> 01:08:14,399 relations that we have in our lives. 1141 01:08:14,399 --> 01:08:18,919 I think it's important to remember that people are generally doing 1142 01:08:18,919 --> 01:08:21,539 their best and that ebbs and flows. 1143 01:08:21,689 --> 01:08:24,779 I think that's the other important thing to remember is that things can 1144 01:08:25,159 --> 01:08:27,199 evolve and change and that's okay. 1145 01:08:27,749 --> 01:08:28,109 Sandra Pham: Yeah. 1146 01:08:28,169 --> 01:08:32,479 Well with that take care of yourselves y'all and bye. 1147 01:08:32,849 --> 01:08:33,099 Minh Vu: Bye y'all