Welcome to the Love, Sex, and Leadership podcast, where you can discover simple tantric teachings to embody your true power, awaken your soul's wisdom, and live an inspired life as a natural, intuitive, and heart-centered leader. Hello, welcome everyone to Love, sex, and Leadership. I am excited today to have a friend and colleague, and a Yeah, beautiful inspiration, who I've known for several years now. He's a bit known as the Dark Wizard. He brings a lot of, uh, heart, actually, what my experience of Dame and real person. I think my experience of Dane Thomas before knowing Dane Thomas was a lot of judgments and, and projections and thoughts. Then actually, when I met him, we, we dig down on some, on some De Martini stuff and, uh, we had a, a beautiful connection and we've known each other now for a while, and I just have an appreciation for How I observe you carrying yourself in the world and not giving a fuck, and also being able to be connected to the magic and spirit realms, as well as like a really strong, know how to get shit done business guy. So I, I really appreciate you, brother. Great to have you here. Thank you. I appreciate that intro. Hi everybody. So, yeah, so let's, let's, let's dive in a little. I mean, a little for people that don't know you, um, you know, you had a, a spiral, um, thing that you created a while ago that you kind of had identity around for a long time, but then that, you know, you kind of let go of that a little while ago. Um, just in a short synopsis, maybe a little essence of what that was, as well as from the side of your leadership, like why after creating something so powerful and so good, did you really feel the call? To, to, to leave something behind. I think that's a question that comes up in the show sometimes around leadership. It's like, when do we know when we've created something, when to let it go and when to actually keep letting it birth. Beautiful. Yeah, for me, I guess my overarching journey has been a long journey that combines things like sort of a self, self-actualization journey with sort of, um, Spiritual growth, I'm deeply into the occult and magic, but all, if you put it all together, it's kind of like personal development, soul, soul initiation, and various approaches to spiritual awakening and whatnot. And so, The spiral was, you know, I built something called the Spiral School of Awakening, and the process to spiral was a system for clearing emotional baggage and blocks and conditioning. And the process is something that, that raises your level of consciousness, so it's an ascent journey up through the chakras that is kinda, clearing out baggage and gradually raising your level of consciousness and, You know, it was proven and demonstrably helped a lot of people be more effective in the world, more connected to a higher purpose, etc. and that was, You know, I assembled it from finding tools that I needed to kind of liberate myself from certain blocks. That's so the first part of the journey was cleaning up a bit of my own stuff and then finding like, oh shit, I've found some things that I think really work, and kind of assembling those into a, A modality that, that I thought could help others, then as you would know, and other people who were leading various things would know, the second journey is like, cool. Now as someone who teaches others and transmits this to others, there's a whole another personal development journey of leadership, which was the big, it's like I went through the spiral personally, but then I went through the spiral of building the spiral, you know? And so, The whole thing was based on spiral dynamics, which is a very useful developmental map that I recommend anyone dealing with, you know, personal development, spiritual development should at least have a basic familiarity with. And the irony of it was, as I go through this thing and I'm building this thing, and it's gone from me teaching 10 kind of friends how to do it to like, OK, now I have You know, I think we taught over 500 practitioners by the kind of life cycle of the, of the journey, and it's like, fuck, I'm now the leader of this thing, there's a community, there's a modality, there's legal aspects, there's a business aspect, this is, Kind of my life, right? And I, I would say that it was. A very primary part of my purpose for about 8 to 9 years, and, You know, I started to reach a point where, There was a lot of A lot of the new issues that had to be dealt with were not issues of innovating and creating technologies, which is what I, that's where I thrive, is like creating new systems and, and transmitting that. It was more moving towards like, OK, if I want to do another 10 years of this, this is gonna be more of a leadership journey of building, uh, an organization that is mature enough to handle the shit that an organization with 500 people or 1000 people in it has to deal with, which, As I began to ascend that journey, it definitely helped me grow up in a lot of ways. Um, you know, going from like, I'm a fucking rule breaker, man, to like, they're doing what? Oh, now I have to make rules. I don't really make rules. I break rules. And it's like, well, we kind of need some rules because there's 100 people and 5 of them are doing this shit in ways that are not good for the brand. So suddenly I find myself kind of having to evolve a whole another level of like, OK. If you break this rule, we have to retrain you, and if you break it 3 times, you'll have to be out of the community and you know, really, stuff that I never thought of, and so basically I feel like I got to the top of that journey for myself and, I started getting a vision that like, well, this thing was really positioned to where it wants to go in the world, it probably would be better with a woman or maybe a community of diverse women at the helm. Or, you know, like, am I really the best guy? Like, as, as I did the work on myself and became more shamelessly expressed, and I'm, you know, gradually acquiring like face tattoos and gold teeth and expressing, I'm really into like dark magic and shit. And then you've got like, Reiki healers and kinesiologists who are like, this is the guy that made our modality. Like, am I the best, am I the best person to lead this brand? Because I, on the one hand, I'm a living example of what happens if you do this work on yourself, but I'm not a great visual representation of what you might wanna, you know, if you're a kind of, and I'm not saying everyone who does the spiral now is this, but, you know, if you're more of a light, uh, healer sort of archetype. And then you've got someone coming to do the thing. And who's the guy, uh, this guy? And I'm on some podcast saying some crazy shit, or I've just put out a, you know, a rap single about how goddess chicks are all crazy or whatever, you know? And it's like, there was just starting to be multiple clashes between my personal expression journey and what was probably the best for this modality, which, you know, is still alive. My good friend Kylie Ryan bought and Integrated the, the work into her school and holds the spiral school now and it's still, still going strong and, It was just clear to me that my growth and its growth would be supported by not being fused together, you know, and that, and I, I'm kind and also, there were certain archetypal dynamics that I see that are, you know, if you're the cis white hetero male sitting on the chair of Creator in a certain thing, there's a certain archetypal set of power dynamics that you're gonna have to burn through over and over and over. And I'm like, I don't really want to fucking do that. Like I don't want to have to be the projection of this, even though some of it's true. The quickest way for me out of this is like, I just get off the chair. Like if I'm not the guy. Oof, and I just, it came to me through meditation, I was like, oh my God, I mean, could I really just like not be the guy, and I was like that's. Crazy, and then it was like that's. Honestly, the most thrilling next step is like let it go, like, this thing, it's alive, it's no longer a toddler, it more feels like a teenager or a 20 year old, it's, it can, it's gonna probably survive, you know, and. I am locked into a parent dynamic that is probably is not the best for me and it's probably not the best for it. And eventually took a long time to really own that internally. And I was like, you know what? I'm gonna let it go. And I was like, Fuck, that's crazy. And then people wanted to buy it and some of them were not a good fit, and some of them kind of looked like a better fit. And that was a beautiful completion journey for me that opened up. OK, what's the next chapter? I thought I might be that guy for 40 years and it's like, well, it turns out like 9 or 10 was enough. Now what do we want to do, you know? Mhm, mhm. No, I, I, I love that chair and, and for you when you did let it go, like what was the feeling in your body? What was the, the, the feeling that arose inside of you and, and, and you know, releasing something that you had birthed and created and new inside that it's time to let it go like intellectually you could feel that and then what was the sensation that rise in your body through that? I'd say once the fears were moved through spaciousness. You know, there was a, a couple of weeks before making an announcement that was like, I have this idea, and I'm like, can I really do that? And I did a lot of days in like, dark meditation, in yoga, closed my curtains, sit in the dark, and just, I knew I couldn't solve it from a mental level, and I just kept surrendering. And that was a lot of layers of like, what are people gonna think? What if it fails? What if it this? You know? And then once that was moved through, it was just like, Oh, I'm free, you know? And It's a bit like when you move through a breakup and at first it's the worst thing ever and then it's like this is right, you know, you get to that place of like, oh I love you more now that I'm not chained to you, like, fuck, I've got gratitude versus like what the fuck, get out, you know, I'm stuck. Yeah, I think it's a struggle, um, you know, I, a lot of people go through and I appreciate in hearing what you're sharing the The place of knowing when your time was for completion and actually opening into the spaciousness of what was present, you know, it really indicates a level of um of, of soul awareness in that, something that I, I know both of us have a, a deeper longing on this planet to see less of the ego-driven personality trying to claim and own and, and, you know, have such a um a place of ownership of these things and naturally allow things to to be set free. Yeah. And you know, and, and I guess in that like when you're as an entrepreneur for many years and creating and bringing things out, like, where's the line for you when you know that, you know, maybe someone's taken someone from you or taking an idea or you know, and made it their own. Like I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this. I've gone through a few rounds of that and I've gone through various eras of what I thought was the correct way to respond, you know, and like, You know, one of them was a little more capitalist, it was like, we're gonna fucking lawyer up and get, OK, right, you're gonna see from my lawyer that I'm paying $4000 to write me a letter, you're gonna really, and then realizing like, that person never really did anything that interesting with it and, you know, if they had wanted to, those letters weren't really doing that much, and also, You know, I had it with the spiral particularly, I had about 3 of those, and I was initially very. Upset and angry and self-righteous, and then there was one who was a woman who had, Trained with me. Who I think, you know, she was just probably got sick of me waiting for me to like hatch the modality into a licensable fashion, so she just fucked off and did her own version and like, you know, her website had these metaphors that I'd given in a talk that she'd recorded. I'd used this bathtub metaphor to explain systems and money and whatever, and so it was like the bathtub metaphor. I'm like, hang on a fucking minute and you know, it went from like the spiral with the 22 unique emotions to like the compass with the 24 unique emotions and I'm like, OK. And I, but I was starting to get. Um, I guess, I guess what I was learning by that time was like, my magic and my, where I'm strong in that, in this realm is innovation and creativity. And if I let too much of my consciousness go into a defense game, which I'm not saying is wrong, but for me, if I get too much into like, yeah, we're gonna fucking this and that, and we'll stop you and we'll blah, it's like that's a lot of energy and attention actually and um. What I decided to do with her, I think we might have sent one letter, but I, it was more of, I knew it was a token gesture because I, I was like, cool, send a fucking letter. And then, that's it. I don't care what she does. And then I just went into like, I'm gonna write the book, I'm gonna shoot the video training, I'm gonna, I'm gonna now like put this thing out into the world for free, and really just, My, my, my weapon was like cool, I'm gonna ramp up what I give and serve by like 1000 X, you know, and like it was almost like a spite driven, Service, it's like I'm gonna give the world way more than you can give the world, and, maybe in doing, cause I can feel there's this contradictory like on the one level, Look, if she helps 100 people, maybe that's good, and on the other level, like, fuck you bitch, you stole my thing. But also, also like a learning, a learning of like, you know it's kind of hard to make stuff in the world and actually. As I went down that path more, it's like, you know, having the idea is like really only a small part of what it takes. And if you can go rock this idea better than I can rock this idea, you're probably gonna still have to earn the fruit of what you do. You know, like, you're not like, I copied Dane's idea and now I'm like a billionaire. It's like the step between A and B, there's a lot of legit stuff you're gonna have to be able to do to make, and you're gonna have to serve people and build things and lead and, You can't steal that part, like that's, that part's in my opinion, the really hard bit. And also You know, I was consuming a lot of like very. Innovation, creativity, entrepreneur-driven content around that time. And a lot of principles I was really into were like, you know, your job as an innovator is to make yourself obsolete, like every 3 to 6 months, you know, like, I used to be the guy who teaches the thing in a room, but if I make a free video training, well, now everyone can learn it in like a couple of hours. I don't need to be in that room. So what am I gonna do? Well, now I'm gonna train the teachers, but what if the teachers can do it? I don't take anyone through it anymore cos they're all like, yeah, if I just keep making myself obsolete, this thing is gonna really grow and. You know, we didn't, we didn't get anywhere near, but especially in those early days, I was like, I want to impact a billion people, like I was one of those kids, you know, and it's like, well, if I work every day, all day per year, you know, 5 or 10 at a time. It's still only a few 1000 people, so if you want to even, even go close to that, like even vaguely in that direction, we need to level up out of this thinking of like, It's yours, it's mine, I've got to do it all myself, and so I think, I just kind of, I have more been interested in throwing myself into the value creation journey. And it doesn't mean, like, if someone, I'm the new thing I'm building is the school of magic, and it's got a certain set of ideas and principles that I'm really think are combining them is unique to me. Like if someone copied it exactly and I see the thing, yeah, they're gonna probably get a letter and they're probably, I probably give a, do a bit of token. Normal world business shit, but it probably that's like 1% of my energy that I'm prepared to put into that war, like I'm more interested in like, Doing rituals, making cool shit, landing temples, becoming who I want to become is my, is my primary life journey and, I don't want to spend too much time getting in little beefs and dramas, and also, I guess I'm, when I was having those experiences, I was more fresh. I'm kind of feel like I'm a bit more of an almost an elder in some of my kind of spiritual business communities that I'm in. I've mediated multiple things where a person kind of hatched an idea that is a lot like my friend's idea that they did 2 years before you, and I'm like, Look, before you just fucking sue them, let me just email them, you know, like, Hey, blah, blah, blah. Did you know the thing you're making is really similar to something such and such pioneered two years ago? And just letting you know, if you're not fully attached to that name, there might be still room to do a little pivot and like, you know, and a few times I've been, like, you know what, I, I wonder if I'd got it from somewhere. Maybe I'll call it this. And I'm like, great name. Awesome for you. And it's like, OK, we just avoided. It's huge waste of time and energy and people hating each other and it's like, I don't know. Like, the, the thing that is called the School of Magic, my initial blueprint was like, it's gonna be called The Field. You know, I'm friends with Rachel Rickers, and I'm like, Rachel's gonna like that, you know? And I'm messaging with her, she's like, Really? I'm like, I don't know. Dark field? She's like, That's better. And I'm like, OK, well, you know, like, and then it's kind of spat into its next incarnation. I'm like, it's a school of magic. That's what it really is. But it's like, You know, just to argue the other side, there's a lot of ideas and language that we all use that are we're relating to a lot of the similar stuff, and it's, it's not always like, Plagiarism and, you know, whatever. And sometimes it is, and I don't know, it's down to you how much time and energy you spend on that shit, I think, you know. Yeah, for sure. And you know, it sparked a couple, um, things in my awareness. You know, I've had a, the real, the realization a few times of, you know, in a moment of inspiration, this great idea to through and you write it all down. And then for whatever, life happens and then you realize like, you know, a couple of years goes by and then you actually see what it was that came through in other forms. I've had that it happened enough times where it's, I, I actually, I feel like there's a level of our like quantum field awareness that's tapping into these. And then it comes through and it's really just the question of who actuates this into reality. So it's, it's really, it's all spirits at the end of the day anyways. I think there's a lot of that and You know, I read a lot about the early kind of computer innovators and stuff, and there was like, at a certain point, there was like 3 or 4 people completely independently trying to land roughly the same thing, you know, and it was usually the one who had the proximity to like networks and resources, worked at a university, had a couple, you know, who was able to like flesh it out better and get a patent quicker and, Some other guy who was equally genius but worked in his mum's basement, but technically had the idea like, 6 months earlier but you know, they didn't know about each other, and it's like fuck, that thing wanted to exist, you know, and. Um, we're just tapping on the channel and. You know, I think I also feel that's, that's a reality as well. Yeah, no, for sure, and the, the question I have in that as well to to someone who's a creator as well and writing and a lot of things coming through. When you're in a moment, maybe you're, you know, you're in a solo retreat space and you really want like creativity come through, but you're just like, there's nothing there. What are some of the, the, the go to things that you do to empty yourself out to allow creativity to pour through? Um, I got a few of those, and they, they kind of work together, I guess. Um, journaling is one of my most basic practical go to's, which I do almost every day and have done for probably 10 years now, and it's not necessarily high quality journaling. Sometimes I'm there going, I'm bored and my foot hurts, and I wish this coffee would hurry up, you know. And other times it's like, this is amazing, you know, but it's like, the, the commitment is just to have the motor running and, Have my fluidity of ideas or process stale stuff, and I think that really helps. I um, You know, I write music and make, make beats and that kind of stuff as well. And sometimes if business ideas are stuck, I'll go write songs and like, sometimes they're good and sometimes they suck, but there's something around switching modalities that is like, oh yeah, if I just create that container like this and call it this and tell the designer it's this color, I'm like, what, where did that come from? It's like, well, I spent 4 hours writing a baseline and figuring out something completely different, and it's just, it's can sometimes just seem to like loosen up. My brain, you know, like, I think sometimes pushing is just really not the way, and also, working out, meditation, self pleasure and sex magic is big for me, and it's almost like, It's not that anyone is the right one, it's just whatever tools I've got to keep the to get the channel open, I'm in, and sometimes, the gym is more used than self pleasure and sometimes meditation is more use than the gym and sometimes forgetting about it all and going for a swim is good and. You know, I don't really sweat. I, it's funny, I feel like as an entrepreneur and like spiritual creator, I'm mature, and as a musician, I'm younger, so I can compare the two of like, when my music guy is like, oh, he's fucking pushing up against it and struggling, and it's like, well, if I look at this other one, there's a lot more letting go, and like, oh, ideas come. I've, they've never not come. Maybe today isn't the day that I need to invent a thing or whatever, and. I, I also have a high tolerance for creating crap, you know, it's like, Cool. Write me, write me some horrendous content. Easy. This sucks. And then it's like, Oh, well, then the channel's open, and then it's like, Oh, but actually a better one, and then I write a good one, and it's like, that was so easy, because some part of me gave consent to like, You're allowed to not be a genius, you're allowed to not be original, like, and I like writing for my own. Release so so that it gives me permission to not be, A great writer all the time or whatever, and I think that's just, for me, it's like, More about, what's that quote, you know, um. The goal isn't to make art, the goal is to get in that wonderful state that makes the creation of art inevitable. Maybe, maybe you're butchering, but roughly the idea, I'm more interested now in getting into state. And then I'm like, oh, amazing idea, versus like sitting there, man, like yelling at myself, you know, like, you suck. You know, it's like not really that fun. Trust, I guess is my ultimate hack, you know. Yeah, trusting and uh. Uh, for me, it's a trusting and kind of getting out of my own way to, to let something that's kind of beyond my personality move through. You know, around magic, you know, someone as yourself that literally has magic tattooed on his face, that's obviously something that's very, uh, very important and, and alive to you and You know, in our worlds, I think there's a relative understanding of what magic is. You talked about sex magic, you know, I mean, I think a lot of listeners will understand that. And yet I'm sure some people when they hear things like occult and esoteric, you know, esoteric teachings and magic and, you know, even here in Bali, like when people start talking about black magic, it's like, you know, there's like some pretty gnarly things that go down. So I'd love to hear from your side like how you How you navigate like the expression of that magic, not necessarily in a safe way, but in a way in which that's palpable for people to, to comprehend into their lives. And even magic in of itself is difficult to understand, but there's still some sort of deliverability of it to make it uh cognitive in some way. Mm. Yeah, I feel like that's one of my like, I don't it my life's journey, but probably the last 4 or 5 years as I, as I've really more leaned into to this particular word and this particular framing of what I'm interested in. Obviously that's necessitated this conversation a lot of times, and for me, I feel like people in my proximity, they're getting a fairly down to earth transmission of something, you know, Ma, it's different from a distance or someone sees me online I'm like, what the hell is this guy doing? And like, you know, some people run towards and some people run away, and some people are just like, not sure, you know? And that's, I guess I'm, I'm kind of OK with that as well, like I sort of, I don't think I fully knew, but I sort of knew stepping into something that has a lot of, Shadow and projection and edge and, you know, narratives around it, like it's quite a taboo thing, we have a lot of religious conditioning still as humans and, you know, superstition and stuff and um. I kind of knew that fully flying the flag for this thing would be interesting, um. And, and also comfort myself with like, yeah, but it's, it's interesting. It's not like I'm gonna get probably burned alive for it, you know, it's not like 200 years ago, it's more like potential confusion or potential projection, which you work in sexuality, you know, you work in with power, you work with many things that uh have a bit of edge to them. That's just part of the, um, The price of entry, I guess, you know, of really owning a certain area is gonna be that certain people are, Triggered by it or have stories about it. For me, I guess. It's almost claiming a Western path of initiation and, and spiritual awakening, you know, like that's what really magic is. It's like I've spent a lot of time with Eastern philosophy and Tantra, and I still, Tantra particularly is still very core to what, how I interpret the world. But I feel like magic in the Western esoteric tradition sort of landed as like, oh, this is almost like something that I'm closer to being indigenous to, you know, like you could argue, Egypt to Israel, to Europe, to whatever kind of Israel, but Egypt Judaism to whatever, you know, um, but there is, there is. As an English born person, there is threads around magic in my DNA that is not in, South American shamanism or, you know, Kashmiri shaivism or whatever, you know, it's like there is, I found something that I felt I had some lineage to. But really for me, magic is about the integration of spirit and matter. It's about bringing the unseen into the scene. It's about, you know, Maybe some, some practical application of invisible spiritual principles into the world around you, and it can be applied at different levels. So the one that people are more familiar with is more like the personal gratification level. I want a new car, put it on my vision board, maybe self pleasure to it, or do a sigil or something, that's that's very like, OK, I've got a new car, amazing, and you know, I've done this magic and it has worked, you know. And but I think where the more magic I've done, the more it is. Really about aligning intention with my spiritual development, you know, and so I'm using magic for soul initiation, and I'm using magic for essentially connection to cosmos or realizing the self as part of the whole, which, you know, pretty well lines up with tantra, pretty well lines up with Buddhism, pretty well lines up with esoteric Christianity or Sufism or, you know, the it sort of aligns with most of the mystical cause of pick a tradition, you know, and I think, So for me Yeah, it's, it's about realization of self as as the one, the one, you know, that's really the big game of magic, and the difference would be, it's, It's a little more of a western and self-determined path, you know, it's got more room for, at least, at least initially the ego and the personal in it, you know, and. And I think I think for me also what makes it very interesting is this mixture of like non-dual spirituality, which is not necessarily all magic people are into, but for me, the two really overlay, and that makes this sort of, Some of these concerns about light and dark and whatever of like, oh, that sort of seems not really, You know, I just don't, I don't really resonate to that, that sort of superstitious worldview. I'm like, whatever it is that's you're afraid of out there, it's already in here on some level, you know? Does that mean I think you should be going around like hexing people or conjuring up this or that? Maybe not, but it's, you know, it's also not worse than. Stealing from people or punching people in the face or doing, you know, there there's there's lower and higher actions whether they're esoteric or not doesn't really make any difference to me, you know, and it's, it's more about um. I guess what I'm trying to say is the more integrated we are, the less shit we are afraid of on the outside. Yeah. I mean, if I'm, if I'm terrified of it, that's maybe an interesting curiosity to go check it out and see what, what I'm. Projecting out there or what I'm, what part of me is not cool with that idea, you know, and obviously that's, I don't need to necessarily put my head in a crocodile's mouth or whatever, but if I but if I notice there's things like, oh, I don't, I don't like those people over there, it's like maybe go and be around some of them sometimes and see what what that's really about, you know, cause I think it's it's, it's, it surprises me, this is, this is my naive side, you know, when I read like Carl Jung and. Aldous Huxley and those kind of people in my like teens and early twenties. I was like, Cool. So when everyone reads this, we'll all realize that, you know, the shadow is what's in me, so no one would really ever be afraid of each other or hate each other, or need to murder each other or other each other cause we're all gonna be aware, the thing about you that I really don't like, it's in me. OK, I guess I better work on that. And it's like, we just need to get them across this piece of simple information and it's job done, and it's like, Didn't really pan out like that somehow, you know, people, the people aren't hungry for to realize that somehow and, you know, that's sad for me. Yeah, I, I think uh I remember reading a book, The Dark Side of the Light Chasers from uh Debbie Ford, who's also one of the kind of initial pioneers of shadow work and, you know, it was just such an eye opening. I think I found that in my, my early twenties and it was just like, wow, OK, like this is why this whole world of spirituality that's trying to chase the light. Like what's actually underneath that, and you know, it's sad to see a lot of people actually still in that, that energy, but it is what it is. It is what it is, and I, I am coming slowly, like I can be a bit of a judgmental bastard and a bit of a gatekeeper and whatever, but also I'm gradually trying to come into like, everyone's in the stage they need to be in as far as I can tell, you know, and, Some of the things I want to criticize, it's like, yeah, 5 years ago that was you, what are you talking about? Like, it's like fine, you know, OK, like. So I, I, I, I'd love to actually dive into that more because, you know, I've had this my own experience with like my family who basically thinks I'm, you know, don't really understand what I do, have a light generalized id idealization. They understand that I, I make enough money to, you know, build nice houses in Bali and I'm taking care of myself. But what I really do, I, I don't think they really get it. And, you know, I remember when I first was on this path, it was like trying to convince them and all this, and then actually, I find actually some of the most simple enjoyable times is is spending with them when I don't need to be anything. I mean, not that I ever need to be anything, but there's actually just a simplicity when of of not seeking sometimes, and sometimes the seeking journey that people are always on, like it's beautiful to always be learning and growing. And when I look around at, you know, the people of Bali, like the, the farmers that are surrounding my home here like. Actually just quite simple beings that are connected to the earth and connected to nature, connected to their own level of of of magic. And I I guess I'd love to hear some of your perspectives on like how we in this kind of western seeking mind of looking for, looking for magic, looking for understanding, looking for all of this, like the the the the the pros and cons of that and and how you might relate to some of that. Yeah, that's broad, you know, I mean. What I can say is. You know, I think there's, there are there are definitely various pronounced stages that I've, that I've seen and tracked and and have gone through, and I'm sure there'll be, you know, I'm sure I could be on here in 5 years going, ah, Dane in, you know, 2025, didn't know what he's talking about, you know? Yeah, or, or, I agree with him, but he was missing some nuance that I now as a 50 whatever year old could, could color in a bit more, you know. And, and that's fine, and I think, I mean, I think There is something in this this mind, kind of spell, you know, this first spell of, You're born imperfect, you're born in original sin, you're, you know, it's, it's out there. What, however, however this frame comes into us, you know, that it's like, OK, kid, you're a loser. But maybe if you get somewhere, you'll be worth something someday. You know, it's like this, there's so many layers. There's capitalism, there's a kind of Christianity, there's patriarchy, there's whatever, whatever labels at whatever stage you wanna put in. We kind of land in these frameworks that definitely convince us, even, you know, even the romantic model, right, like it's ah, it's out there, once you meet her, you know, once you meet that one, you'll be complete, you'll be happy, it's gonna be all right and it's like, Any version of that is, is clearly destined for failure. I mean, clearly not everyone knows this yet, like it's like when you get 7 figures, bro, that's when it's gonna get good, you know, like. And it's like gonna be OK. There's there's so many of those that I've popped and they seem so, so clear, and then I'm still have ones that I'm breaking, like this year I rebuilt my, Financial plans at a level that is so much lower than what I was doing a couple of years ago, and I'm like, I, I feel like I have more. I, how do I have more? And it's like, well, you're different. You sit in yourself differently, you have different stuff in community, your art, your whatever. And it's like, that's very interesting, because, you know, I'm setting number goals that a 34 years ago version of me would laugh at and me like, bro, like what is it have you lost your confidence? I'm like, I'm actually more confident, I'm more certain, but I'm, I'm building exactly what I need to be in alignment with who I am right now, you know, and it's like this, the right amount is not the most, the right amount is the right amount, and I think, Basically what what I'm getting at is I think there's a maturity. That comes from being in the search and being disappointed is actually the magic of the search, you know? Like, it's like, it's not that you seek and then you find you, ah, I got it. It's like you, maybe, hopefully you get, you're heartbroken. That would be the best case scenario, you know? Um, oh my God, I got my heart broken, and that sucked. But then something deeper in me woke up, and that was. Rich, you know? And now, well, I don't love heartbreak, but I'm OK with the possibility that I could get my heart broken again, and it's a part of me, it's like, good, I hope you do, you know? And it's like, and it's the same of like, you know, I had to make the money to clock, like, OK, so different numbers, same fundamental identity problems and worth issues just just projected on a different thing. And so I think, There is an in, you know, spiral exspiral guy, there is an inevitability that there is, there is something that consciousness wants us to go through. And I, and I don't think once you've gotten. On boarded on that journey you can necessarily skip it, you know. And so You know, the way I look at it, it's a bit cartoony, but it's like, you know, consciousness incarnates itself into matter, so that it can differentiate from itself, so it can rediscover itself, and it's like, OK. Whether I'm a Banese farmer or whether I'm a, you know, working in the fucking factory, or whether I'm a corporate guy, or whether I'm a hippie tantra workshop dude, on some level, I'm playing my part in supporting that. Oneness thing to experience itself in just the right way so that it can continue to unfold, and from that level, I don't really think you can fuck it up, you know, I just, I think it's doing its thing. But then on the soul level, I do feel like you can kind of be more or less on track or off track. I do seem to experience that sense of like, oh, I'm really aligned right now, this is fucking all and oh, what I've, what's happening? I've. I've wandered off the path, but only from a, Certain perspective, you know, and then obviously from the personal level, we're trying to gratify these impulses and level up through these levels, and I think, You know, and then then if you want to go full Eckhart Tolle non-jewel, it's like, well, if you just sat there and be empty, you would be in the perfection. And it's like, great, that's cool too, you know? So like, you know, I don't know which is better, but it's all going on, right? Like, it's, it's all there. It's all there. Yeah, no, I love that. um. You know, as, as, as both of us definitely in this world of of temple arts, you know, and, and both, you know, teaching within an organization that deals with the temple arts, and I know that's something that's very, you're passionate about and, you know, I get asked the question of what is the temple arts and how is that, you know, what is ritual and how does this apply and and and how I, I'd say for one, like, how do you apply temple arts and ritual into like day to day life in the level of like your own individual leadership for yourself, and how does that apply and work with the greater community in the whole? Oh, that's such a sexy question for me because it's very on the pulse of where, where I'm at, you know, like. I feel like I've done a lot of um. Self initiation and whatnot and my. That continues, but my, my current journey is is working a lot with groups and I mean, I've done plenty of teaching groups and all that kind of thing, but I, I'm now, I'll still be doing that, but what I'm working with more and more is, creating groups and, and listening to the emergent field of intelligence through the group, and particularly pulling in people who have, I've got shared resonances with, like, I've got two guys here right now that both did hi and temple training at different times to me, and when they've moved into my house, we're doing a 1 month temple immersion experiment, which I'll just paint how that looks, you know, we, we created a container from new moon to new moon, so we're using a lot of basic planetary magic, astrological alignment, and we sort of sat with, what are we aligned around and why would you guys want to help me, like, essentially, um, You know, the mundane level help me paint my house and tidy up this house that I bought, like, that's, that's what's happening on the practical, but what we're doing on the deeper is we are all feel very aligned. Around this culture of temple landing and landing. I guess the soul of the planet, you know, there's this sense that humanity is awakening and accelerating and it's awakening, and we can take a hand in that acceleration, and we're all doing that in different ways, whether it's Tantra or the mystery schools or whatever. And so for me, The practicals look like, um, we're living our week with a planetary magic correlation. So Monday is Moon Day, uh, Tuesday is Mars Day, Wednesday is Consciousness Day, and which is Mercury, and so the themes of the activities, we sit and have a little pod sharing, but each day is flavored a little different, right? If it's Mars Day, it's like, if you've got any shit with me, do you want to bring some, you know, anything that's stuck, any conflict is welcome today. Um, Mercury is more consciousness, so we're actually gonna have a meditation and less of a blah blah blah, and, you know, Jupiter is Heart Day, so it's quite cool. What's going on deep inside of us. It's not about what shit have you got, it's like, what are you, is there anything you want to share that's deep in your heart, you know, and so these simple little things, what they're starting to do is really flavor the frequencies of the day. We, we're kind of into our third week now and it's like, You know, and then we'll have we'll cook lunch together and then we're like painting a room or removing a bunch of trash from my house and in the evening, we'll host the temple. And it's like the, something's happening that is like, because we're going through all these different sort of frequencies that are aligned to bigger cosmic things, but they're all those are just a reference. We get to the end of the week, it's like, oh my God, so much happened. We did like emotional clearing. We did erotic body work, we, um, did a music jam, we, Painted two rooms in the house, we each worked on our businesses separately, we did, and it's like, what I'm interested in is taking, you know, we're in deep containers and stuff often, and that's really cool, but that could be hard to blend into like life. And so because this is a house, it's only half an hour from the Gold Coast, we're kind of, we're around normal society, we're not on a remote island, we're not in, you know, wherever, we're kind of in, Not far from Normie land, we have to drive down to the hardware store to get things, we go, we went to jiu-jitsu together on Monday, which is hilarious cos we're like the temple boys go to do some wrestling and then come home and it's like, there's this, there's this joy in mixing these things together because that's always been, One of my concerns is like I go into some deep container and it's amazing and it's magical, and then everyone goes back to their homes and many of them are sucked back into like, I don't know, corporate reality or a family that isn't really attuned to this stuff, and it's like, how do you maintain this magic? And for me that's, I bought a house and I'm dedicating it to that exact thing, and it's like, it's weird cause I live in a container, but it's only, It's a porous container, it's not as deep as being in a retreat 24/7, it's like that at a half setting, 365, you know, and it's like this is fucking weird and it's kind of cool and and um. You know, we did a bunch of body work on each other, and then we got ideas for our business and did our Instagram fucking things. And it's like, this is really kooky. And so for me, ritual, to, to answer the question properly, ritual forms multiple purposes. One will be transformation, one will be healing, but a, a bigger one is bringing groups together, bringing community together and marking. Time and marking, you know, the passage of seasons, whether they be literal, earthly seasons or astrological astronomical seasons, and I think, This is the next step, at least in my vision of building more permanent community, which is like, we come together on solstice on a Monday, this thing is happening. On a Wednesday, this thing happened on a full moon. I run myself pleasure rituals every full moon. I do more like dark meditation every new moon, and I'm just starting to anchor a world around me that is, Really the for me, it's anchored to something bigger, and it's anchored to more of a sacred culture than what I was brought up in, which obviously, churches and stuff offer a version of that, but for many of us, like that's not the version I resonate with, you know, in fact, that's almost the version, I have an aversion to that, so, but I realize, That has provided a deep function for society and so how do we, You know, it's like tantrum people, it's all well and good and we're eye gazing and cuddling, but none of them are gonna help you move house when you need it, you know, it's a bit, it's like that's the kind of like, whereas if you're part of the church, those guys will come over and help you out with the practicals cause that's a little more warm grounded in the matter, and I think, That's, that's what I, that's the next stage for me is how do I anchor, especially I've moved to a place that for me, Isn't that particularly, you know, the Gold Coast is not known for its occult, embodied, tantric, whatever, it's there's not really the vibe, but I'm kind of putting my little flag in the ground and, you know, wanting to anchor more of that and, yeah, ritual with the practical is really where I, I find myself really happy. Yeah, I love that. And I, I, I appreciate the, the, the place in which you're, you're creating there as well as the, you know, the integration into society. One of the retreats I was just teaching was living tantra, and it's all about like, how do we actually live and breathe this into day to day life. And yeah, I'd love to divert a little bit into how you can live and breathe that like into relationship and and how that looks like maybe there's a a new lover in your life and you want to introduce this, you know, weird sex magic ritual, whatever it may be, or maybe she's not, you know, familiar with that and um yeah, some of your Uh, experience in, in that with really introducing people to the realms of, of ritual and magic and and um how much they're open towards it, as well as like the the the the challenges of being, you know, this kind of dark wizard magic guy and how that relates to day to day like having relationships with, with, you know, with women and along those lines. I mean, if you were to check my like. Life and message history for the last 4 or 5 years, you know, it's, there's a fairly solid, Flavor of. Witchy women and priestessy women and tantric women and astrology witches and, you know, there's the, I think there's this, at this point of my life, there's a fairly good self-qualifying sort of force field around my world that is like, You're probably not, you know, I'm hosting self pleasure rituals every full moon, right, in a new place, which is very interesting. 70% of the people that come. Have some expo, have done this kind of thing before, and there's always a couple who are like, I'll always do one first time doing it. There's usually one or two. I'm like, OK, so, let me just frame, because obviously they're at an adventurousness level, that's enough that they've somehow got onto the WhatsApp thread, or my I've invited them or someone is a friend has invited them. So they, they're not that far removed, you know, it's not, it's not been like Dorothy from the bank has arrived in the room and and she's wondering what the hell's just happened. It's, it's, it's, it's people who are looking for something like this, even if they don't quite know what it is, you know, so I feel like I've been very, This kind of blanket of potentially scary vibes, which, you know, I'm often criticized for or challenged for, provides a very helpful filtering system in my world, you know, of like, People are not, OK, can I come to your self pleasure church ritual at you, and it's even like where I live, it's at the top of the mountain, and the last part, the road goes like this, right? And it's just a bit of a fucking, it's mystery road, my street, it's called Mystery Road, and it's like, it's like, look, the last bit you kind of got my even my driveway is a bitch, right, it's just like this almost fucking vertical bit you've gotta go on and it's almost like, If you want to go to the wizard's house, you kind of have to mean it, you know, I'm not really at high risk of, Hi, I just wandered in here, oh, we're doing what now, you know, so that's the first layer is there's a sort of a branding, messaging and energetic. I don't know if it's a force field, but there's definitely a flavor you would agree that I've chose to inhabit, and that seems to, um, You know, It's like, if I go in certain rooms that are really light spirituality, I can be like, no, none of the women in here seem like they like me. It's like, there we go, on the other side, you know, it's like, or if I, if I'm in America, it's like, you only the old people talk to me like, Dean, what, what do you think happens after we die? You know, I'm like, OK, this is, there's no like, you know, and then if I'm in more of a witchy, esoteric vibe, I seem to be quite a compelling figure. And it's just like, OK, it depends what room I'm in. This is either a repellent or an attractant, you know, it's, it's it's very pronounced, um, so that's the thing, another level is, With containers, I really. You know, I have sort of formed in my worldview, kind of a like, beginner, intermediate, and kind of more veteran sort of spaces that I would hold or be part of. And that sort of just gives a little bit of framing for me of like, you're not wondering when no one's at risk of wandering into like a full blown sex magic ritual at my house. That's gonna be 8 people I've known for 5 years that we've done a lot of stuff together, you know? It's like, it's, it's other tantra teachers and people who we, we, are comfortable to create that sort of space together. It's not like I've sold some random ticket and you've found yourself in some terrifying ordeal that's just like, and I think that's what I see sometimes out there I'm like, really, you're just putting that out on the, anyone can just buy a ticket, huh? That's crazy. Like it's like, you know. I don't, cos I'm like I'm kind of an intense energy, but I'm also quite sensitive, so the last thing I would want is someone in my room that doesn't want to be there, not only for their benefit, but I feel weird, you know, it's like, well, you know. So then I do really enjoy creating sort of safe containers, which is. You know, yes, Dark Wizard, but also like Kian. Enjoy the nervous system ease, let's do things slower than they happen at some workshops, like that's also one of my things, and so I really like even the self pleasure ritual that I run, which sounds wild. You know, it's a slow drop and there's a lot of framing of what we're doing and why we're doing it, and then you're not doing it to get anywhere and no one's getting in each other's space and it's can be you holding yourself the whole journey, and I'm gonna play music and guide, and you do what feels right for you. And it's, it can go with a bit of intensity, but it's, it's been framed very gently and so far, that seems to work really well. You know, I've run it at festivals and stuff, and it's like, oh, we're getting people relaxed. There's a lot of what I think needs to happen for. Magic to happen and for. Uh, deeper sexuality things, I think having useful nervous systems in a room and people who are resourced to, You know, Be, be in charge of that is really important and so that's on the group thing, and on the personal thing, you know, I do find myself, I'm hanging out with someone, maybe it's a date, maybe it's a new friend, maybe it's a whatever. I will often just offer, Hey, do you want to do something like this? And it's usually not gonna be, let's stick giant crystals in our butt, you know, it's usually like, let's do a little meditation where we connect to the moon and connect to the black hole and connect to the earth and connect to the sun. And it's like, no one is like, Oh my God, that's terrifying cause it's pretty light, you know? And I, I'm finding that because I have a long term view to kind of propagate magical culture, it's like, OK, we, I actually, You know, I'm starting to not necessarily censor, but, I wanna actually build some stuff that is more resourceful and more educating and more useful than like, Ooh, the Dark Wizard. You know, I feel like I needed to own that early on, and now more, it's like, OK, what is, what is this guy on about? What are we talking about magic? What are we talking about, you know, what would be the benefit of anchoring ourselves to the planets and the black hole and the earth and the sun as, you know, it's a way to be more holistically connected to things. It's like just trying to bring things into grounded, Reality, and I think that's. You know, you don't want to demystify the mystery completely, but it is totally to me desirable to build a gradual awareness of what all this stuff is about. Mhm, mhm. Yeah, I, I can uh. Appreciate that. I was a long time. I'm not doing it this year, but often I was holding these kind of introductory um like temple nights and Ubu and it were like people rocking in and, you know, it's a very safe container and very safe space. They weren't doing anything with genitals and it's bot as well, and they're already already edgy about that stuff anyways. So, um, but certainly there were some people that came in, you could feel like just the fact they were like going into something called the temple. Like the things that they had in their mind about it, it's like, you know, there's such a misunderstood uh concept. And then at the end, after being like held in a frame of safety, they can, they can have a deeper sense rather than just being kind of, you know, scared by let's say, advanced, you know, um, ritual that's way beyond what they're ready for. I think so much of it of the going down the path is like dialoguing with our own fear, you know, and I like probably about, 7 years ago I went to like an, I was part of an all-male temple, you know, and I was like, I don't know about this, and like the, you know, the invitation was. You know, primarily straight men, by the way, you know, and, and it's like, um, the invitation is OK, so what we're gonna do is follow the current of anything that awakens within us, and we're gonna honor that current. That's the, that's the invitation here. Who is up for that? And I was like, Nope, definitely not. Nope. I was like, you know, I hadn't really got to the transpersonal level of like, I'm ready to work with men as part of my tantri journey yet, that kind of opened shortly afterwards. And, and I, and what was happening was for me, my vision was like, I'm gonna have like cocks in my face, it's gonna be just this, Uh, you know, this just unhinged, uncalibrated, horrendous experience. I'm so terrified of that. That is not for me. And so I was allowed to sit out and be on my own mattress with myself. And pretty much everyone else was in. And what unfolded was a temple with music playing, and it basically was light touch and a couple people even kissed and like, I don't think there was a like even an erection in the room. There was, it was nude, but it was just like, It was almost let's see what happens if this many male bodies get together and we open temple, what happens? And it blew my mind because I was there confronted with like where my fear would go to was like 100 out of 10, you know. And it's just like, I just can't handle and what's gonna happen if this happens to me? And it was like, Oh, that's what happens when people come to my house for a whatever ritual. They don't even know what I mean by a ritual, you know? And it's like, ah, we're gonna like give gratitude, and then we're gonna drink some like cacao or Blue Lotus, and then we're gonna maybe, uh, it's like, in a way, it's really quite tame, but there's, you know, the lighting is moody and some of my songs are a bit spooky, and it's like, that's the flavor. But actually, that was like gratitude giving and community connection and eye gazing and maybe some touching. Uh, and it's like, oh, I thought, what do you think I was gonna sacrifice a goat? You know, like, that's not really, but because, because we're full of fears, you know, we, and we're full of narratives and whatever, you know, you name Temple, that links to sexuality. I've got a lot of stories about what that could be. You name magic. Well, I've heard about those. I've, you know, I got a pentagram on my neck. The most time people have seen one is in a horror movie, you know? And I'm like, look, it's mostly used by witchy Wiccan ladies who are probably into like, you know, Putting leaves in jars and like, you know, like they're connected with nature as their little witchy religion, it's pretty innocent. But if all you ever saw was like some, you know, murder movie with blood and whatever, it's like what you think, you think that's what we do, that's like, it's crazy, you know? You know, it, it reminds me just, you know, I'm sure you can appreciate being a male body in this world, you know, teaching around sexuality and emotions and talking about all these things that are often so You know, hidden in our general society, you know, I, I'm not covered with any tattoos. I think I'd keep a pretty good, you know, clean cut for the most part, you know, hair is cut now, so maybe it's not as much of a wild hunter too, but like still the level of projections that come on even from out without people even knowing you I I've said a word and I already have a thought and idea and a belief on who they think I am, and I'm I'm sure the same happens for you as well. Yeah, it's a strong one, and I think. There's a road to be walked that is like, on one level, like, with good reason, you know, like when we look at the the levels of abuse of power and etc. it's fucking horrendous and it's, there's just almost an infinite supply of that in our history and in our presents. So it's like, OK, kind of fair enough. And as the individual walking that path, You know, that's inspired me to, one, keep things in, in what to me feels like a reasonable degree of, you know, fairly high integrity. But I've also kind of deconstructed a lot of taboos and whatever. So what it, what for me is an integrity, and I feel is in connection of the people around me and care and synergy. If you take it 3 or 4 degrees out, it still can sound, if you hear something secondhand, it's like, oh my God, like. How, you know, they did what with who, you know, and it's like, it's, you know, what are you gonna do, like I I can't um. I can't do the shadow work in all the brains of all the people who would be, on the one hand, horrified of, of my life, but on the other hand, secretly, probably would like to have those experiences, but they're so wrapped in fear and guilt and shame that it's, it's the only way that, you know, someone could be sexually free or dating a bunch of people or people are getting naked in some sort of ritual, it must be people up to no good, it must be an abuse of power, and it's like, Look around, this is all my friends that we've known each other for years, and everyone here looks pretty happy right now. Like, and they're pretty happy a month later, and it's like, it's, and we know the world we're in and the industry we're in is fraught with fucked up shit and carnage and trauma and so it's, I get it, and I, I do sort of try to balance, like, one, being true to my own current and my own knowing and trust, and two, creating environments that are, You know, safe is a tricky word, but that are at least discerning and creative with a degree of awareness and transparency of what it is we're doing and who should be in that space, and that's, It's a dance, but it's one that I, I think. I feel it is worth it, you know, even though it's like you, I don't think people who aren't in this role, know that there's sometimes it's a bit of a tightrope, you know. Mhm. For sure, for sure. Well last question before we close, I'd love to hear in in simple language, best you can, the difference in your mind between magic and shamanism. And where, where are they differentiate. I mean, the first part is there is a link, and I would say that almost all, pretty much everything, Um, originates in shamanism, you know, so if we trade anything back far enough, you end up in shamanism, so I would say that, For me Shamanism is the primary emergence that precedes magic and religion and contains elements of both. And obviously, you know, a lot of people associate to South America, but to me that is all, all traditions, roots are shamanic, so whether we're talking, you know, Neolithic, like Anglo-Saxon or whether we're talking Indian, we're talking Russia, whatever, all those roots are shamanic, so to me, The focuses on that are more around nature connection, maybe working with spirits, traversing different realms, um, maybe soul, soul retrieval and healing, that kind of stuff. Magic emerges from that, you know, so there's definitely an overlap. When I talk magic with a K, I'm specifically referring to like ritual magic ceremonial magic, which has a lot more of a, Western esoteric consciousness framework overlaid into it, so it's definitely got more of ideas from, Egypt, from Judaism and from often a medieval European synthesis of systems and symbols and structures and working with names of God and maybe invoking angels and all that stuff, so um to me, magic is, Yeah, maybe he has some more elaborate consciousness frameworks, it maybe has more. Um, Personality and egoic layers, like it's if we're talking the magic that I'm talking, then it's, it's emerged much more recently in history, but I would say that, To be a good magician, there's a a degree of shamanic development needed which which will be returned to like the primal elements of nature and earth connection, um. But I, but it's, yeah, for me like. The magic that I'm trying to practice is integral, so it would borrow from all levels, so there would be shamanic stuff in there, there will be non-dual spirituality in there, that's not what everyone means when they say magic. If we want to blow magic up to the broadest possible definition, I guess it means everything that is dealing with the unseen and invisible forces and energies and stuff with shamanism. Now they're really more in the same field, you know? So we're talking just magic is a very general word. I think shamanism and magic are playing in the same realms cause we're dealing with spirit realms, energy realms, unseen realms that become seen, etc. But for me, ritual magic has a very specific focus around, um, Integrating with kind of God, if you like, that would be the Western esoteric. The endgame is I am realizing myself as God, pulled into a human form so that I can be, you know, realized fully. And that's, that's a specific branch of magic, which we're talking Golden Dawn, Crowley, those kind of traditions, you know? Mhm, mhm. Yeah, beautiful. Thank you for that. Um, before we close, any, any upcoming projects, things that you're creating that you'd love to share, things that you're super inspired about right now, that's alive in your, in your field? Yeah, um, I have a mentorship called Permission, which is more like, uh, purpose and business mentoring for spiritual entrepreneurs, that's an ongoing thing, so people come and go, it it just stays open, you can join for a month or many months, so there's still one place in that and there's a waitlist after that. And then I'm building the school of Magic, which is much more about pretty much all the things we're talking about. So integrating ritual in everyday life. Uh, we run a monthly live and online sex magic ritual that everyone can dial in and participate in from the comfort of their own home, and we teach kind of ritual practices, occult, esoteric frameworks and stuff like that. That's only 100 bucks a month and that's really, A vision to sort of propagating this culture more globally is what I'm, what I'm working on there. And I've got a few ISAs if people want to end up in that space with me, I've got a level 1 and a level 2 coming up that if you want to suss that out, maybe go on the ISA website and find me. I've got one in Bali in April, a level 2, which feels exciting. And, um, yeah, I'm on Instagram talking about all this crazy stuff often. So if you more just wanna hear what I'm talking about, I will share this podcast and other things like this. Um, from there and Yeah, if you wanna just be, and I put out music, so I have a single called Magic Is Real that is on Spotify right now, which is predictably all about magic. Amazing, brother. Well, uh, I appreciate you, I appreciate you the. Unique, uh, framework of reality and you're creating your own reality and it's just, it's always a joy, you know, to connect online or in person and you know, I really appreciate your perspectives you bring and and how grounded you are in this work as well. There's a lot of gratitude. Thank you, Aaron, appreciate having me. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you all for tuning in and uh please like or subscribe to. What's happening here, if you want to see more episodes, check them all out with other amazing characters and amazing beings like Dane. See you next time.