WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.050 --> 00:00:04.040 Rupert Isaacson: Welcome to Live Free Ride Free, where we talk to people who 00:00:04.040 --> 00:00:09.680 have lived self-actualized lives on their own terms, and find out how they 00:00:09.680 --> 00:00:13.888 got there, what they do, how we can get there, what we can learn from them. 00:00:14.032 --> 00:00:18.839 How to live our best lives, find our own definition of success, 00:00:19.169 --> 00:00:21.689 and most importantly, find joy. 00:00:22.579 --> 00:00:24.259 I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson. 00:00:24.373 --> 00:00:27.463 New York Times bestselling author of the Horse Boy. 00:00:27.468 --> 00:00:31.456 Founder of New Trails Learning Systems and long ride home.com. 00:00:31.456 --> 00:00:37.074 You can find details of all our programs and shows on Rupert isaacson.com. 00:00:37.124 --> 00:00:39.864 , Ari welcome to Live Free Ride Free. 00:00:40.334 --> 00:00:46.214 I'm so happy that you're here for the listeners. 00:00:47.044 --> 00:00:51.654 I, I knew Ari about 20 years ago in Austin, Texas, where we were both 00:00:51.654 --> 00:00:54.344 part of an ecstatic dance group. 00:00:54.604 --> 00:00:59.164 And anyone who's ever done ecstatic dance knows how ecstatic it is. 00:00:59.234 --> 00:01:02.924 It's a, it's one of the most wonderful things you can do if you stumble into it. 00:01:02.984 --> 00:01:06.284 And it tends to attract obviously fairly interesting people. 00:01:07.684 --> 00:01:12.564 I remember Ari, my interactions with you just always thinking, wow, that's a really 00:01:12.564 --> 00:01:16.834 interesting person who's going to go on and do really, really interesting things. 00:01:17.324 --> 00:01:19.314 And I knew a little bit about your background. 00:01:19.814 --> 00:01:23.454 So now to reconnect after so long and to find that not only have 00:01:23.464 --> 00:01:27.674 you been doing interesting things that you sort of blow one's socks 00:01:27.674 --> 00:01:28.894 off with your interesting things. 00:01:29.544 --> 00:01:33.834 Can you please tell us who you are and what you do? 00:01:35.734 --> 00:01:38.424 Ari Honarvar: Thank you so much for having me, Rupert. 00:01:38.454 --> 00:01:43.344 It's so fun to catch up after feels like ages. 00:01:44.219 --> 00:01:53.059 And yeah, so I'm the founder of Roomie with a View, and the purpose of that is 00:01:53.139 --> 00:01:57.459 to bridge the of between war torn America. 00:01:57.989 --> 00:02:07.009 Countries, borders, and also it's an intersection of art, dance, which includes 00:02:07.009 --> 00:02:11.869 dancing, poetry, music, everything that you can imagine that's artistic, 00:02:12.359 --> 00:02:16.979 and also well being and spirituality. 00:02:17.059 --> 00:02:19.929 So that's where I'm at. 00:02:19.989 --> 00:02:21.539 I dance with refugees. 00:02:22.579 --> 00:02:30.069 I've danced with thousands of refugees throughout the past decade or so, and 00:02:30.999 --> 00:02:38.119 I practice all sorts of different kinds of ways to bring joy into my life, and 00:02:38.129 --> 00:02:42.784 I do facilitate resilience through joy. 00:02:43.304 --> 00:02:46.614 Workshops and retreats on both sides of the U. 00:02:46.614 --> 00:02:46.804 S. 00:02:46.804 --> 00:02:47.784 Mexico border. 00:02:47.784 --> 00:02:50.064 Just as I dance with refugees. 00:02:50.194 --> 00:02:56.474 I conduct those sessions with frontline workers with mental health care workers 00:02:56.504 --> 00:03:04.989 with doctors with with people who are asylum Attorneys and work, how you just 00:03:04.989 --> 00:03:06.889 deal with a lot of vicarious trauma. 00:03:07.489 --> 00:03:12.379 And throughout my experiences, I've found that just my own childhood 00:03:12.409 --> 00:03:17.359 coming from, from a war torn country, which was super oppressive to 00:03:17.359 --> 00:03:21.239 women and and everyone else that. 00:03:22.714 --> 00:03:28.914 Joy is what is pleasurable is sustainable and joy is like a renewable fuel 00:03:29.274 --> 00:03:33.444 that can transform our relationships with others, with each other, 00:03:33.504 --> 00:03:35.824 with work, with our whole world. 00:03:36.604 --> 00:03:38.674 So that's, that's what my gem is. 00:03:40.844 --> 00:03:45.384 Rupert Isaacson: The war torn country that you came from was, is Iran. 00:03:46.934 --> 00:03:51.824 You were how old when the Shah fell and Ayatollah Khomeini came in? 00:03:53.109 --> 00:03:56.939 Ari Honarvar: I was six and just like that, in a matter of months, 00:03:56.959 --> 00:04:03.579 women lost their right to ride a bicycle or sing or dance in public. 00:04:03.779 --> 00:04:03.879 Couldn't 00:04:04.019 --> 00:04:04.309 Rupert Isaacson: sing. 00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:05.379 A woman could not sing. 00:04:06.069 --> 00:04:06.509 Ari Honarvar: Right. 00:04:06.739 --> 00:04:07.619 Rupert Isaacson: A man could sing? 00:04:08.429 --> 00:04:09.699 Ari Honarvar: A man could sing. 00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:16.329 A woman's voice was deemed too provocative by the Islamists that took over Iran. 00:04:18.509 --> 00:04:21.739 Rupert Isaacson: What did that mean for you as a six year old child? 00:04:22.209 --> 00:04:27.729 Describe the shift of your reality from A relatively westernized kid 00:04:27.779 --> 00:04:32.579 because Iran at that time, certainly Tehran, was relatively westernized. 00:04:34.419 --> 00:04:37.299 What changed, like, in the perception of a child? 00:04:37.749 --> 00:04:38.919 Could you describe it for us? 00:04:40.689 --> 00:04:45.809 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, so my best friend was a boy, I was kind of a tomboy, and we were 00:04:45.849 --> 00:04:47.849 just getting into all sorts of troubles. 00:04:48.499 --> 00:04:53.379 And and all of a sudden, I could not be You know, playing with him 00:04:53.389 --> 00:04:55.209 without a chaperone in public. 00:04:55.709 --> 00:05:01.609 He could go on as he pleased, whereas I had to cover my hair and my body. 00:05:02.009 --> 00:05:06.749 I mean, that took, took a couple of years for that to happen, maybe a year or so. 00:05:07.069 --> 00:05:08.189 For, for. 00:05:08.584 --> 00:05:12.584 The regime to implement the mandatory hijab laws. 00:05:13.064 --> 00:05:17.534 And once they did that, then I became more and more restricted. 00:05:17.534 --> 00:05:21.214 I felt like I was just having to blend into the background. 00:05:21.214 --> 00:05:22.044 I couldn't run. 00:05:22.044 --> 00:05:24.774 They wouldn't let, you know, if I ran, someone would be like, 00:05:25.334 --> 00:05:26.444 What are you doing running? 00:05:26.444 --> 00:05:28.014 You know, bringing attention to yourself. 00:05:28.014 --> 00:05:31.204 You're a girl, you're supposed to be you know, whatever. 00:05:31.664 --> 00:05:36.254 And we literally had to sit on the back of the bus as, as women. 00:05:36.484 --> 00:05:41.344 So there was a gender apartheid that was happening that we were subject to 00:05:41.344 --> 00:05:46.114 that was so unfair to my seven year old. 00:05:46.629 --> 00:05:52.399 mind that, that I, you know, just kept my hair really, really short. 00:05:52.399 --> 00:05:57.199 I cut my hair and I pretended to be a boy so I could skirt those 00:05:57.219 --> 00:06:02.449 laws and get into as much trouble as I could before some well meaning 00:06:02.489 --> 00:06:04.279 neighbors are like, hey, that's a boy. 00:06:04.954 --> 00:06:07.094 Girl pretending to be a boy. 00:06:07.104 --> 00:06:09.454 And my parents were like, no, no, no, you can't do this. 00:06:09.974 --> 00:06:17.524 So then I had to get into trouble in other ways because it was so unfair to me. 00:06:17.919 --> 00:06:23.139 To live in a world where a group of people are favored over another group. 00:06:23.139 --> 00:06:28.009 And that's the basis of my social justice or the sense of morality and social 00:06:28.009 --> 00:06:34.369 justice that you know, human rights and, all of our relations rights is not a 00:06:34.619 --> 00:06:36.699 choose your own adventure kind of thing. 00:06:36.939 --> 00:06:42.869 You have to honor everyone in this world as a, it's the basis for me. 00:06:43.889 --> 00:06:46.919 Rupert Isaacson: So you're six years old, this happens to you, you, you think, okay, 00:06:46.919 --> 00:06:48.429 fine, I'm going to pretend to be a boy. 00:06:48.549 --> 00:06:49.579 That doesn't work. 00:06:51.149 --> 00:06:54.339 At what age do you get out? 00:06:54.509 --> 00:06:57.159 How do you get out? 00:06:58.149 --> 00:07:00.099 And what's your. 00:07:02.594 --> 00:07:06.914 As you go into like later childhood, early adolescence, because then I should imagine 00:07:06.914 --> 00:07:08.794 things must have changed even more. 00:07:10.174 --> 00:07:10.674 Ari Honarvar: Yeah. 00:07:10.674 --> 00:07:17.894 So I was I had so many terrible things happening all around me. 00:07:17.894 --> 00:07:21.974 People were getting arrested, tortured, killed executed. 00:07:21.984 --> 00:07:26.663 The dissidents, anyone who said anything that was not jiving 00:07:26.673 --> 00:07:28.463 with the, with the authorities. 00:07:28.803 --> 00:07:32.533 Freedom of speech was extremely curtailed. 00:07:32.533 --> 00:07:39.463 So people had to talk about the weather to, you know, as a metaphor is like, Oh, 00:07:39.463 --> 00:07:41.003 I think the weather's going to get better. 00:07:41.003 --> 00:07:43.103 Meaning like this regime is going to go maybe. 00:07:43.473 --> 00:07:46.353 And and people, and then people started getting arrested for 00:07:46.353 --> 00:07:47.693 even talking about the weather. 00:07:47.993 --> 00:07:51.933 So it was, it was just this kind of a lottery of torture and 00:07:51.933 --> 00:07:55.123 death that was that befell us. 00:07:55.123 --> 00:07:59.513 And then in the middle of that, about a year, I was like seven, seven years 00:07:59.513 --> 00:08:02.233 old when the Iran Iraq war happened. 00:08:02.233 --> 00:08:05.713 Saddam Hussein took advantage of the internal turmoil and attacked 00:08:05.713 --> 00:08:10.603 Iran and started a war that lasted eight years and destroyed countless 00:08:10.603 --> 00:08:12.473 lives, more than a million lives. 00:08:12.973 --> 00:08:15.598 And it was, you It's really hard. 00:08:15.598 --> 00:08:19.518 We had to deal with internal you know, suppression and 00:08:19.558 --> 00:08:21.548 oppression and, and crackdowns. 00:08:21.578 --> 00:08:24.138 And then there was an actual war going on. 00:08:24.818 --> 00:08:27.318 And but the war on joy that we felt. 00:08:28.743 --> 00:08:31.263 You know, really, really hurt in a different way. 00:08:31.823 --> 00:08:38.333 And and it was not okay, but by many of us, we actually took risks, dangerous 00:08:38.333 --> 00:08:41.993 risks to, to bring joy into our lives. 00:08:41.993 --> 00:08:48.593 We would even, we would have little tiny parties, you know, in, in in kind of like, 00:08:48.603 --> 00:08:54.403 speakeasy type situations, but sometimes they would get like our neighbors. 00:08:54.953 --> 00:09:01.103 Neighbors party, birthday party got raided because they were birthday party, 00:09:01.243 --> 00:09:02.423 Rupert Isaacson: a child's birthday party. 00:09:02.848 --> 00:09:03.888 Ari Honarvar: a child's birthday party. 00:09:03.888 --> 00:09:04.188 They would 00:09:04.188 --> 00:09:05.878 Rupert Isaacson: raid a child's birthday party. 00:09:06.268 --> 00:09:09.848 Ari Honarvar: They raided a child's birthday party and 00:09:10.158 --> 00:09:12.178 everyone took off there. 00:09:12.188 --> 00:09:13.058 It was our neighbors. 00:09:13.098 --> 00:09:18.738 Everyone took off, climbed the wall, got into our house to, to run away. 00:09:18.748 --> 00:09:23.908 And there is my mom handing everyone a veil, a chador to put on their head 00:09:23.908 --> 00:09:28.748 so they can, everyone's like barefoot because, you know, it was just so, So 00:09:28.778 --> 00:09:34.938 unexpected and these men with machine guns show up and and the mother of the 00:09:34.938 --> 00:09:42.578 child was had a brain tumor and she was very weak and it was like she gathered all 00:09:42.578 --> 00:09:48.248 her strength to, to throw this birthday party to have one final moment of joy. 00:09:48.618 --> 00:09:55.338 And so when she came over to our yard, she had a seizure and. 00:09:55.863 --> 00:10:00.833 These men with machine guns held the machine guns to us, you know, 00:10:00.853 --> 00:10:05.153 I pointed the the guns at us and said, you cannot go help her. 00:10:05.463 --> 00:10:11.793 So we're watching this woman right on the ground and and we are helpless. 00:10:11.793 --> 00:10:13.223 We, you know, they wouldn't let us help her. 00:10:14.283 --> 00:10:17.243 And so my mom is like, she's gonna die. 00:10:17.273 --> 00:10:19.933 And so the man is like, oh, let her die. 00:10:20.063 --> 00:10:20.573 So what? 00:10:20.953 --> 00:10:24.093 So this is the kind of oppression we're talking about. 00:10:24.733 --> 00:10:28.143 So of course it enraged me. 00:10:28.163 --> 00:10:33.353 It made me so, you know, intolerant of such injustices. 00:10:33.353 --> 00:10:37.643 So what I did was I would sneak out at night and I would write 00:10:37.673 --> 00:10:40.603 anti regime stuff on the walls. 00:10:41.113 --> 00:10:45.953 And the punishment for that is death, because when you live in a theocracy, 00:10:45.993 --> 00:10:53.253 anything that you say against the regime, you also say that against the against God. 00:10:53.283 --> 00:10:56.958 And of course you can't be blasphemous. 00:10:57.668 --> 00:11:05.003 So my sister's classmate, she was a senior in high school when she was arrested, 00:11:05.273 --> 00:11:12.823 half her classmates were arrested and taken to prison for various acts of 00:11:12.833 --> 00:11:18.393 defiance, just bringing joy to their life or have a sense of expression. 00:11:19.053 --> 00:11:25.898 And My sister's classmate, Roya, was executed without a public 00:11:25.938 --> 00:11:30.298 trial and they just told her parents to come get her body. 00:11:30.488 --> 00:11:37.808 So that kind of, you know, just, detonated these shockwaves through our 00:11:37.988 --> 00:11:42.498 neighborhood as we're getting bombed, as we're, our family members are 00:11:42.498 --> 00:11:44.618 getting killed in an actual war too. 00:11:45.148 --> 00:11:48.908 So, so yeah, but we were like, we're gonna, we're gonna have joy 00:11:48.928 --> 00:11:51.558 anyways in the midst of it all. 00:11:51.558 --> 00:11:55.598 We are going to express ourselves in the midst of all of this. 00:11:56.033 --> 00:12:01.953 And I just watched the adults who were able to put their grief or, 00:12:01.953 --> 00:12:07.063 or even bring their grief and their joy together and, and and celebrate 00:12:07.103 --> 00:12:09.413 whenever we could, whenever we could. 00:12:09.863 --> 00:12:13.413 And my parents decided that it was too dangerous for me to be in the U. 00:12:13.413 --> 00:12:13.573 S. 00:12:13.573 --> 00:12:14.493 So I left. 00:12:14.503 --> 00:12:20.333 So, so they, so my mom actually wrote a poem about India's Independence 00:12:20.333 --> 00:12:24.563 Day and submitted it along with our visa application to India. 00:12:25.443 --> 00:12:29.883 And India in the, in Indian ambassador must have liked that poem. 00:12:29.883 --> 00:12:34.833 So she, they, they granted us a visa to go to India. 00:12:35.383 --> 00:12:41.083 And in India I secured a meeting with the American Consulate. 00:12:41.263 --> 00:12:43.003 I was 14 at the time. 00:12:43.773 --> 00:12:48.173 And through a series of miracles, I got a visa to come to the us. 00:12:48.843 --> 00:12:53.513 But the fine print on that miracle was that I had to do it alone 00:12:53.513 --> 00:12:57.283 and my parents had to go back to Iran to be with my sister. 00:12:57.783 --> 00:13:00.253 They didn't give them a visa to come. 00:13:00.933 --> 00:13:07.453 So I had to learn a new way of life, a new language and on a new planet. 00:13:09.313 --> 00:13:09.643 Rupert Isaacson: Wow. 00:13:10.083 --> 00:13:10.513 Okay. 00:13:11.073 --> 00:13:14.773 I've got some questions before we go to how on earth you managed to 00:13:15.163 --> 00:13:18.303 Survive in the US at 14 by yourself. 00:13:18.953 --> 00:13:23.013 The first question is okay listeners Ari is also a best selling author and 00:13:23.013 --> 00:13:27.523 she's the author of a book you've got to check out called, A Girl Called Rumi. 00:13:28.633 --> 00:13:36.843 Rumi, as many of you know, Is, was, I guess still is, along with Happy's, a 00:13:36.843 --> 00:13:45.193 sort of staple in the, what would we say the, the, the, in Western eyes, 00:13:45.783 --> 00:13:50.573 the sort of inspirational, spiritual 00:13:52.683 --> 00:13:58.363 poetry, sort of beloved by scholars, new ageists, hippies, just people 00:13:58.363 --> 00:14:04.173 that like poetry, you know, anyone who likes a good poem at some point 00:14:04.193 --> 00:14:05.833 is going to come across roomy. 00:14:05.853 --> 00:14:11.513 Without a doubt, this high medieval writing, I think in the 13th century 00:14:12.083 --> 00:14:18.823 Persian poet has penned some of the most beautiful literature 00:14:21.603 --> 00:14:24.413 that's, you know, recorded that we can get our hands over. 00:14:25.953 --> 00:14:34.033 But for your people, Rumi is as Shakespeare is to the Brits 00:14:34.243 --> 00:14:35.413 or whoever, perhaps more. 00:14:37.263 --> 00:14:42.583 How did this expression of poetry, and particularly the poetry of this 00:14:42.583 --> 00:14:47.993 particular poet and poets like him, mitigate the suffering of the war on joy? 00:14:48.173 --> 00:14:50.633 How did that help you? 00:14:51.473 --> 00:14:52.423 What did you do? 00:14:52.433 --> 00:14:53.603 How did it manifest? 00:14:57.103 --> 00:15:04.978 Ari Honarvar: So, it's so wild because you couldn't compose new poems. 00:15:04.978 --> 00:15:08.858 Like, I, my mother was a poet and, and I talk about how the 00:15:08.858 --> 00:15:11.398 regime pruned her of her poetry. 00:15:12.058 --> 00:15:17.818 And because anything that you said was blasphemous, but then there is Hafiz 00:15:17.858 --> 00:15:24.368 and Rumi and Saadi and, and Harveen, Etesami and all, all the older poets 00:15:24.398 --> 00:15:28.878 well, Etesami is more new, but, but the the older poets, you know, you could just 00:15:28.878 --> 00:15:32.058 recite their poems and, and, and every 00:15:32.158 --> 00:15:34.328 Rupert Isaacson: People just know them in, in, in Persian culture, 00:15:34.328 --> 00:15:37.698 in Iranian culture, people grow up reciting them, knowing them. 00:15:37.808 --> 00:15:40.758 Is it sort of common knowledge or is it just only the educated? 00:15:41.828 --> 00:15:46.788 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, so it's poetry is as part of a Persian person's 00:15:46.908 --> 00:15:48.928 makeup as their very heartbeat. 00:15:49.768 --> 00:15:55.768 We recite poems not just in at funerals and weddings, but when in 00:15:55.798 --> 00:16:00.138 conversation, or even when we're trying to resolve a conflict, we 00:16:00.138 --> 00:16:01.918 do it through a verse of poetry. 00:16:02.653 --> 00:16:09.933 And and it's just woven in the fabric of our lives and and now every time 00:16:09.933 --> 00:16:17.813 someone says something that is you know, neuroscience or, or wisdom is like, Oh, 00:16:17.813 --> 00:16:22.973 it's all about emptiness or crying is good for you or compassion or gratitude is the 00:16:22.973 --> 00:16:25.093 way to go, or all of those little things. 00:16:25.103 --> 00:16:29.523 There is a verse for everything that these mystics and poets 00:16:29.543 --> 00:16:31.483 knew thousands of years ago. 00:16:32.258 --> 00:16:37.388 Or hundreds of years ago, and it's just part of that that mantra. 00:16:37.388 --> 00:16:42.558 It's become like a mantra of sorts that we can say that and it evokes this passion. 00:16:42.838 --> 00:16:48.668 I think I mentioned that part in in so many of, of the, the talks 00:16:48.668 --> 00:16:52.408 that I do about this rooftop scene where I'm on the rooftop and I'm, 00:16:52.668 --> 00:16:57.728 and we're watching the anti aircraft missiles shoot down from the sky. 00:16:58.138 --> 00:17:00.008 And I'm really scared. 00:17:00.008 --> 00:17:03.878 I'm seven years old and I don't know who's going to die next. 00:17:03.878 --> 00:17:08.998 Is it going to be my sister, my friend, my best friend, my teacher? 00:17:09.563 --> 00:17:14.753 And all of a sudden, someone from a passerby below says something like, 00:17:22.383 --> 00:17:27.293 And that means, Even if from the sky poison befalls all, I 00:17:27.293 --> 00:17:31.373 am still sweetness, wrapped in sweetness, wrapped in sweetness. 00:17:31.723 --> 00:17:32.863 Wrapped in sweetness. 00:17:34.323 --> 00:17:39.193 And then someone from below or another rooftop is gives an 00:17:39.193 --> 00:17:41.483 answer to that with another verse. 00:17:52.583 --> 00:17:58.973 While others are singing about love, I am the ton of love 00:18:01.593 --> 00:18:08.133 and verses like that, really going into your 7-year-old heart and radiate to 00:18:08.163 --> 00:18:14.793 every cell of your being until your world is as ecstatic and magnificent. 00:18:15.248 --> 00:18:18.018 as the 13th century poets. 00:18:18.718 --> 00:18:23.328 And in that moment, what bomb could ever touch that? 00:18:26.678 --> 00:18:29.398 Rupert Isaacson: Here's, so here's the question that bubbles up in my mind. 00:18:29.458 --> 00:18:32.808 My family, as you may well know, is colonial African. 00:18:32.928 --> 00:18:38.543 And so joy is so much part of of the African experience, no matter 00:18:38.543 --> 00:18:41.153 whether you're white, whether you're black, whether, you know, even under 00:18:41.153 --> 00:18:46.233 apartheid I suppose they absolutely tried to go to war on joy, but there's 00:18:46.233 --> 00:18:50.723 no way they could, you know, you're going to tell Africans to not sing 00:18:50.723 --> 00:18:53.623 and dance and, and make praise poetry. 00:18:53.623 --> 00:18:55.443 And so, you know, no, you're, it's, that's, you know, 00:18:55.493 --> 00:18:56.793 telling the ocean to go back. 00:18:57.863 --> 00:18:59.903 But, In a culture that, 00:19:02.113 --> 00:19:06.923 where people are raised on this kind of poetry and ecstatic joy, 00:19:07.613 --> 00:19:14.753 what made so many people decide to go along with a war on joy? 00:19:16.153 --> 00:19:21.853 Where did these young men who were pointing the gun at the mother 00:19:22.103 --> 00:19:28.803 having the seizure in your yard, they must have also been raised on this. 00:19:30.518 --> 00:19:36.838 What made such a sizable chunk of the population decide 00:19:36.878 --> 00:19:38.178 to turn their backs on it? 00:19:41.008 --> 00:19:43.718 Ari Honarvar: Well, you could address, this is a very good question, and you 00:19:43.738 --> 00:19:46.628 could address it from very different ways. 00:19:47.208 --> 00:19:49.698 I would like to address it historically. 00:19:50.293 --> 00:19:57.463 To and, and also bring about colonialism and imperialism as, you 00:19:57.463 --> 00:19:59.443 know, you're very familiar with that. 00:20:00.043 --> 00:20:09.073 So, in 1953, Iran had a democratically elected leader who was popular and 00:20:09.073 --> 00:20:10.953 they were going to nationalize oil. 00:20:11.403 --> 00:20:12.803 They did nationalize oil. 00:20:12.853 --> 00:20:15.683 That means that the Brits and the U. 00:20:15.683 --> 00:20:16.053 S. 00:20:16.093 --> 00:20:18.533 weren't going to get cheap oil anymore. 00:20:19.713 --> 00:20:26.133 And so, this was the first time that the CIA decided to stage 00:20:26.163 --> 00:20:29.833 a coup for profit overseas. 00:20:30.453 --> 00:20:34.863 And what they did is that the Brits can convinced the U. 00:20:34.863 --> 00:20:35.143 S. 00:20:35.163 --> 00:20:38.083 government to, to stage a coup. 00:20:38.613 --> 00:20:43.513 And so they started paying money to thugs. 00:20:44.503 --> 00:20:50.743 And the thugs You know, just started beating people up and and, and it 00:20:50.743 --> 00:20:55.443 was just like nothing that like that had ever happened before and they 00:20:55.673 --> 00:21:00.533 were successful and they, they were able to oust Mossad there, who was 00:21:00.533 --> 00:21:05.643 a democratically elected leader and get them and, and, and then the U. 00:21:05.643 --> 00:21:05.843 S. 00:21:05.873 --> 00:21:07.623 installed the Shah. 00:21:08.198 --> 00:21:15.868 Who was a dictator and then the dictator ended up being what dictators do. 00:21:15.888 --> 00:21:20.738 He had some you know, some educational programs and he had some good things 00:21:20.738 --> 00:21:27.258 that, that he implemented, but he also kind of like the royalty in Britain was 00:21:27.288 --> 00:21:30.128 very opulent while people were suffering. 00:21:30.448 --> 00:21:34.928 So their income equality was became worse because we were no longer 00:21:34.928 --> 00:21:36.828 a democratic socialist country. 00:21:37.698 --> 00:21:40.918 And and then there were cronies and then he went on the, 00:21:41.118 --> 00:21:43.058 on a war on the dissidents. 00:21:43.068 --> 00:21:46.158 So people were whoever was saying anything against him was 00:21:46.158 --> 00:21:47.608 getting tortured and killed. 00:21:48.158 --> 00:21:54.848 Then the backlash happened and people became really, really dissatisfied. 00:21:55.568 --> 00:22:02.623 And the CIA again started colluding with this unknown mullah, Ayatollah Khomeini, 00:22:03.603 --> 00:22:08.653 and they, they kind of, I guess they made some back room deals with each 00:22:08.703 --> 00:22:14.783 other and he, she, he became the, the de facto leader of, of the country. 00:22:15.193 --> 00:22:18.693 And he had promised democracy, he had promised women's rights, 00:22:18.693 --> 00:22:19.928 he had promised so many things. 00:22:20.188 --> 00:22:24.988 Amazing things, but he became even more brutal than the Shah. 00:22:25.538 --> 00:22:30.528 So by that time, there was so much such a fractured society. 00:22:31.058 --> 00:22:36.008 And that's the people saw the corruption of the Shah. 00:22:36.118 --> 00:22:37.678 People saw the torture. 00:22:38.018 --> 00:22:39.063 People saw the. 00:22:39.283 --> 00:22:42.393 The opulence when other people were starving. 00:22:42.783 --> 00:22:46.633 So, so they, some people chose religion, their religious 00:22:46.633 --> 00:22:50.093 routes and ideology took over. 00:22:51.043 --> 00:22:54.613 And then the other side was like, no, we kind of like this. 00:22:54.823 --> 00:22:57.833 So there was like this, and then there were other ordinary people 00:22:57.833 --> 00:22:58.873 were like, well, I don't like this. 00:22:58.873 --> 00:23:00.853 And I don't like that, that I'm stuck in the middle. 00:23:02.653 --> 00:23:07.183 Rupert Isaacson: I guess what's still, I'm just sort of as a journalist peeling 00:23:07.183 --> 00:23:08.473 back the onion layers a little bit. 00:23:08.903 --> 00:23:12.263 I could see all of that historical process happening within a national 00:23:12.263 --> 00:23:18.003 character that still allowed for the sort of culture, main cultural 00:23:18.003 --> 00:23:20.803 expressions to keep happening just because they were so powerful. 00:23:20.833 --> 00:23:24.383 You know, I could see this dictator, that dictator takes power. 00:23:24.423 --> 00:23:26.023 I can, you know, let's face it. 00:23:26.023 --> 00:23:27.733 I mean, this goes on all the time, everywhere. 00:23:28.283 --> 00:23:32.363 But it was just so interesting, because every Iranian I've ever met 00:23:32.493 --> 00:23:35.923 has had this sort of joie de vivre. 00:23:36.523 --> 00:23:40.603 I don't think, I can't think of a single Iranian that I know, whether they were 00:23:40.603 --> 00:23:48.793 born in or out of Iran, who doesn't have, as you describe, this love of culture, of 00:23:48.793 --> 00:23:52.673 dance, of poetry, of exactly, like it's in them, like, like, like their blood. 00:23:53.903 --> 00:23:58.883 So, what's intriguing to me is, for example, you know, I saw 00:23:58.883 --> 00:24:00.683 dictatorships come and go in Africa. 00:24:01.223 --> 00:24:04.143 But I wouldn't say that there was ever a war, and, and, and 00:24:04.143 --> 00:24:05.713 brutal, horrible, nasty things. 00:24:06.163 --> 00:24:08.513 But I wouldn't say there was ever a war on 00:24:11.603 --> 00:24:12.143 per se. 00:24:12.933 --> 00:24:15.633 There was certainly, if you spoke up, if you did all those things, yeah, you 00:24:15.633 --> 00:24:16.933 were just gonna get tortured and killed. 00:24:17.293 --> 00:24:20.773 But if you wanted to dance in the street, if you wanted to have your 00:24:20.783 --> 00:24:26.803 musical festivals, if you wanted to do all that you know, In fact, 00:24:26.803 --> 00:24:31.263 it would almost be encouraged to sort of, maintain the pretense of 00:24:31.263 --> 00:24:32.803 a status quo that was harmonious. 00:24:32.803 --> 00:24:35.553 You know, that, that can actually serve a dictator quite well. 00:24:37.553 --> 00:24:38.953 What do you think? 00:24:40.623 --> 00:24:47.403 You know, if you were the soldier pointing the gun in, in that yard back then or if 00:24:47.413 --> 00:24:53.583 you were the soldier going to war with Iran, with it, with Iraq what do you 00:24:53.593 --> 00:24:57.793 think was going on in the minds of those young men who were also raised on the 00:24:57.803 --> 00:25:04.963 poetry, who also grew up seeing their sisters dance, who also participated in 00:25:04.963 --> 00:25:07.293 the, the childhood that you described? 00:25:07.703 --> 00:25:10.773 What do you think made those particular people think? 00:25:12.088 --> 00:25:17.238 Yeah, I'll just jettison all that and take on this strange alien persona. 00:25:17.938 --> 00:25:18.748 What's your theory? 00:25:20.128 --> 00:25:25.848 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, so that extremism that and especially religious extremism, 00:25:25.848 --> 00:25:29.588 and if you want to talk about Africa, we can also talk about Boko Haram. 00:25:29.588 --> 00:25:30.138 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, sure. 00:25:30.703 --> 00:25:35.333 Ari Honarvar: You know, those people were also brought in a, in a, in a culture of 00:25:35.333 --> 00:25:40.003 joy and res, you know, resilience through joy and song and dance and poetry and 00:25:40.123 --> 00:25:47.273 expression, but when you get radicalized in a way that is harmful because you 00:25:47.533 --> 00:25:50.273 put your ideology above everything else. 00:25:51.033 --> 00:25:58.513 So you become like, it is almost kind of like a, Addiction were when, 00:25:58.583 --> 00:26:05.383 when you have healthy habits the, the the habits are supposed to, to 00:26:05.443 --> 00:26:10.883 support the entire organism, the human organism, whereas addiction 00:26:10.883 --> 00:26:12.403 is like the whole entire organism. 00:26:12.913 --> 00:26:15.913 Human organism is supposed to support that addiction. 00:26:15.913 --> 00:26:16.063 Got it. 00:26:16.423 --> 00:26:22.833 So it's kind of similar analogy to when you put ideology above people. 00:26:23.043 --> 00:26:24.093 It's, yeah. 00:26:24.093 --> 00:26:26.163 You will absolutely kill people. 00:26:26.163 --> 00:26:28.263 And it's the same with capitalism or anything else. 00:26:28.263 --> 00:26:29.523 It's not just religious. 00:26:29.793 --> 00:26:30.003 Rupert Isaacson: Sure. 00:26:31.003 --> 00:26:33.773 Ari Honarvar: When, when you put when you forget what's. 00:26:34.003 --> 00:26:40.123 What's important because of a set of rules or an objective or whether it's the 00:26:40.123 --> 00:26:46.723 shareholders, you know, bottom line or whatever, it's it results the same thing. 00:26:48.103 --> 00:26:48.993 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, exactly. 00:26:48.993 --> 00:26:51.593 You know, there was actually a precedent within English history. 00:26:51.623 --> 00:26:55.363 You may well be aware of it in the 17th century, the Brits were the first people 00:26:55.363 --> 00:27:00.038 to cut off the king's head and say, you know, You know, down with the monarchy for 00:27:00.038 --> 00:27:03.288 this reason or that reason, and they did, and of course a new bunch of gangsters 00:27:03.288 --> 00:27:09.108 got in and those gangsters were religious fundamentalists who were Puritans, Puritan 00:27:09.108 --> 00:27:13.448 Protestants, and they banned dancing, they banned singing, they banned Christmas, 00:27:13.768 --> 00:27:17.428 they banned everything they could ban, and 00:27:19.858 --> 00:27:25.578 this coincided with, you know, the witch burning years and the many, many 00:27:25.578 --> 00:27:33.063 cataclysms that, that followed that century, and it, in the end, After about 00:27:33.073 --> 00:27:39.033 30 years or so of the historians here will say no Rupert it was 40 whatever 00:27:39.083 --> 00:27:44.263 it's roughly No, it was a few decades of parliamentary rule they brought 00:27:44.293 --> 00:27:49.013 back the monarchy because at the end of the day, they said, well, they were a 00:27:49.013 --> 00:27:53.923 bunch of wankers, but these wankers are like even wankery than those wankers. 00:27:54.103 --> 00:27:55.903 So choose your wanker. 00:27:56.323 --> 00:27:57.763 Let's get the old wankers back. 00:27:58.073 --> 00:27:58.743 And they did. 00:27:58.763 --> 00:28:01.843 And of course, that that was King Charles II, who was who's known as 00:28:01.843 --> 00:28:05.513 the merry monarch, you know, who was brought back partying and science 00:28:05.513 --> 00:28:07.563 and arts and dance and, you know, 00:28:09.993 --> 00:28:13.763 It was a sort of nouveau renaissance that ushered in the enlightenment 00:28:13.763 --> 00:28:15.003 in the Industrial Revolution. 00:28:16.563 --> 00:28:21.373 One can hope that similar situations can happen. 00:28:22.343 --> 00:28:26.543 Ari Honarvar: Well, hopefully better where we don't need a monarchy, but it was the 00:28:26.543 --> 00:28:27.563 Rupert Isaacson: best we could do at the time. 00:28:27.643 --> 00:28:27.883 Yeah. 00:28:28.373 --> 00:28:28.643 Ari Honarvar: Yeah. 00:28:28.693 --> 00:28:29.503 Yeah, exactly. 00:28:29.553 --> 00:28:34.023 But, but now we have, we have good models of you know, countries that 00:28:34.023 --> 00:28:37.393 can grow up and have enough equality. 00:28:37.433 --> 00:28:41.163 Of course, everyone's going to have some problems, but when you 00:28:41.163 --> 00:28:45.503 have enough equity, equity and transparency and all those good things, 00:28:45.893 --> 00:28:46.813 Rupert Isaacson: is there a verse for that? 00:28:47.313 --> 00:28:48.403 Ari Honarvar: I'm sure there is. 00:28:48.463 --> 00:28:48.823 Yeah. 00:28:50.088 --> 00:28:53.538 Rupert Isaacson: What is your verse before I want to return to you getting to the U. 00:28:53.538 --> 00:28:53.698 S. 00:28:53.698 --> 00:28:58.648 as a 14 year old scared and alone Having just been in India, 00:28:58.648 --> 00:29:00.258 which is its own culture shock. 00:29:00.258 --> 00:29:04.728 I've lived in India is can you think is there a verse that you can think of? 00:29:05.708 --> 00:29:06.148 Ari Honarvar: Yeah 00:29:06.218 --> 00:29:08.748 Rupert Isaacson: embodies hope optimism 00:29:08.748 --> 00:29:14.313 Ari Honarvar: Well, what when you said like The, the moving that, when 00:29:14.313 --> 00:29:20.353 you talked about moving from the, from Iran to here, I go with the, 00:29:26.433 --> 00:29:32.273 which is this know, it's a read, the song of the read that has been cut from 00:29:32.273 --> 00:29:36.233 the source and it just sings because. 00:29:37.503 --> 00:29:43.753 It is so, has, is so full of longing for, to go back home. 00:29:44.223 --> 00:29:47.813 And I was very, very homesick during that time. 00:29:47.993 --> 00:29:53.833 So, so that, that is definitely a a song for, for that, or a verse for that. 00:29:54.233 --> 00:29:58.783 But then dancing really helped me you know, stabilize my nervous system. 00:29:58.783 --> 00:30:03.023 I didn't know that at the time that it was helping me with trauma integration 00:30:03.023 --> 00:30:07.358 and and just, Getting better and better. 00:30:07.668 --> 00:30:10.958 And and so there's a number of verses. 00:30:10.958 --> 00:30:11.438 Let me see. 00:30:11.708 --> 00:30:12.908 I love this man, Tara. 00:30:20.383 --> 00:30:25.498 And it's, Tara is the Arabic word for the rhythm of this moving world. 00:30:25.798 --> 00:30:30.478 So when your heartbeat becomes one with the rhythm of this moving 00:30:30.478 --> 00:30:33.728 world, and and, and that then you're. 00:30:34.013 --> 00:30:41.873 All life kind of becomes this, this synchronous, beautiful song. 00:30:43.443 --> 00:30:45.123 And and so, yeah, so that's kind of. 00:30:45.413 --> 00:30:50.323 Kind of, I think that's what we do when we have these sessions together, 00:30:50.323 --> 00:30:57.123 when we have these communal experiences of love and joy and dancing together, 00:30:57.123 --> 00:31:02.363 our nervous system is a home in device for pleasurable experiences that 00:31:02.383 --> 00:31:05.183 stabilize, nourish and fortify us. 00:31:05.183 --> 00:31:09.123 So, so of course, you know, like this is what we're meant to do. 00:31:09.563 --> 00:31:10.383 With each other. 00:31:10.803 --> 00:31:16.053 And, and if we could, you know, get people to more people to do that, then, 00:31:16.763 --> 00:31:21.973 you know, just our whole quality of life will, will definitely get better. 00:31:23.553 --> 00:31:24.133 Okay. 00:31:25.113 --> 00:31:28.523 Rupert Isaacson: You get, you're at 14, you arrive in 00:31:28.523 --> 00:31:31.423 the U S who do you stay with? 00:31:31.473 --> 00:31:32.153 Where do you go? 00:31:32.173 --> 00:31:32.883 How do you live? 00:31:32.903 --> 00:31:33.673 Who feeds you? 00:31:33.903 --> 00:31:34.993 How do you get educated? 00:31:35.063 --> 00:31:35.903 Where are you living? 00:31:37.788 --> 00:31:43.498 Ari Honarvar: I landed in Las Cruces, New Mexico, and this very kind family And why 00:31:43.498 --> 00:31:43.768 Rupert Isaacson: there? 00:31:43.768 --> 00:31:45.348 That's such a random place. 00:31:46.138 --> 00:31:48.668 You know, you think of port of entry city, right? 00:31:48.738 --> 00:31:52.978 Las Cruces is I suppose it's port of entry if you're coming from Mexico, but yeah. 00:31:53.528 --> 00:31:54.008 Why? 00:31:55.098 --> 00:32:01.723 Ari Honarvar: Yeah so One of the things that happened during the revolution is 00:32:01.733 --> 00:32:08.683 my brother, he was, he's 10 years, my senior, he left as an exchange student, 00:32:08.693 --> 00:32:13.453 and then he couldn't come back to the U S I mean, come back to Iran because 00:32:13.463 --> 00:32:15.553 of the revolution and everything else. 00:32:15.953 --> 00:32:19.633 So I hadn't seen him for 10 years and I was stuck in Iran. 00:32:19.633 --> 00:32:24.373 He was stuck in the U S and so I you know, so, so I was like, 00:32:25.508 --> 00:32:27.128 You know, he became my guardian 00:32:27.129 --> 00:32:28.288 Rupert Isaacson: and 00:32:28.288 --> 00:32:31.538 Ari Honarvar: became this anthropological experiment. 00:32:31.858 --> 00:32:36.538 But before that, I lived with a very kind American family too. 00:32:36.913 --> 00:32:41.433 and memorize 300 words of English a day to be able to learn English 00:32:41.453 --> 00:32:42.793 and communicate with them. 00:32:43.373 --> 00:32:46.943 And so, so yeah, for, for a few months I did that and they 00:32:46.943 --> 00:32:49.013 were very, very wonderful. 00:32:49.473 --> 00:32:52.823 And, and then I lived with my brother for the rest of it. 00:32:52.823 --> 00:32:54.593 Rupert Isaacson: And who connected you with that original family? 00:32:54.593 --> 00:32:56.113 Was that the state department or? 00:32:56.813 --> 00:32:58.473 Ari Honarvar: No, it was my brother. 00:32:58.653 --> 00:32:59.523 My brother did. 00:33:00.733 --> 00:33:01.233 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:33:01.883 --> 00:33:03.703 So it was still all very organic. 00:33:03.713 --> 00:33:07.483 You know, you expect these things to happen through very stratified sort of 00:33:07.483 --> 00:33:13.543 official lines, but really they sent you to your brother and your brother 00:33:13.543 --> 00:33:14.563 couldn't take you at that point. 00:33:14.563 --> 00:33:17.103 So he found people and good luck sort of thing. 00:33:17.683 --> 00:33:18.193 Ari Honarvar: Yes. 00:33:18.828 --> 00:33:24.598 Yeah, like the, and it was a better bet to do it that way than to seek asylum. 00:33:25.128 --> 00:33:29.398 I had a better chance of, because, you know, I had no evidence 00:33:29.398 --> 00:33:31.008 that my life was in danger. 00:33:31.008 --> 00:33:34.008 So you have, it's, it's so hard to seek asylum in the U. 00:33:34.008 --> 00:33:34.118 S. 00:33:34.118 --> 00:33:35.168 People don't realize this. 00:33:35.168 --> 00:33:38.598 They're like, well, why don't they go through, through proper channels? 00:33:38.608 --> 00:33:42.488 And then when you do, when you don't have an evidence, you know, credible, 00:33:42.488 --> 00:33:44.813 you evidence and then you're turned back. 00:33:44.823 --> 00:33:49.193 So yeah, so this was the path for me to, to to arrive. 00:33:49.673 --> 00:33:53.103 Rupert Isaacson: And meanwhile, your parents have gone back from India to Iran 00:33:53.913 --> 00:33:54.243 Ari Honarvar: and 00:33:54.273 --> 00:33:58.133 Rupert Isaacson: presumably they're in danger and you're cut off from them. 00:33:58.873 --> 00:33:59.223 Ari Honarvar: Right. 00:33:59.713 --> 00:34:02.893 Rupert Isaacson: And you're trying to navigate American school. 00:34:05.263 --> 00:34:06.203 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, yeah. 00:34:06.233 --> 00:34:07.833 I skipped two grades. 00:34:08.473 --> 00:34:13.293 And because of, I was a pretty good student in Iran, despite everything 00:34:13.293 --> 00:34:22.223 that was going on and and I just kind of muscled through learning the whole 00:34:22.223 --> 00:34:25.193 culture, student culture and graduating. 00:34:25.193 --> 00:34:31.753 And then I went to, to college and, I went to Texas State and studied there. 00:34:31.773 --> 00:34:37.483 I studied molecular biology and in grad school, I studied melanoma genesis, 00:34:37.483 --> 00:34:44.873 which is how melanoma is, the cancer is is propagated in, in the, in the body. 00:34:45.468 --> 00:34:50.628 Rupert Isaacson: Okay, so how do you discover dance to help you through what 00:34:50.638 --> 00:34:57.128 why and and how does dance suddenly open up for you as a teenager And as we know 00:34:57.198 --> 00:35:02.268 the American high school culture can be you know unpleasant How do you integrate 00:35:02.278 --> 00:35:05.008 that and then why molecular biology? 00:35:05.828 --> 00:35:08.458 Let's can we do it in that order, please? 00:35:11.098 --> 00:35:13.938 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, dancing has always been part of me. 00:35:13.948 --> 00:35:18.358 So even when we were not allowed to dance, we would dance. 00:35:18.428 --> 00:35:20.978 We would get chased by the morality police. 00:35:22.148 --> 00:35:26.618 And and it was like, you know, that's why we felt like it was like we didn't, 00:35:26.788 --> 00:35:30.588 you know, when you're, you're prefrontal cortex is not developed enough. 00:35:30.608 --> 00:35:35.108 You don't really have that, that sense of danger and consequences 00:35:35.128 --> 00:35:36.518 that could be followed. 00:35:36.618 --> 00:35:39.558 So we would do that as teenagers, me and my friends. 00:35:39.728 --> 00:35:40.698 Rupert Isaacson: Where would you dance? 00:35:40.738 --> 00:35:42.508 Where, where, where the variety place to find you? 00:35:42.948 --> 00:35:43.568 Bubs houses? 00:35:44.048 --> 00:35:44.448 Street 00:35:44.998 --> 00:35:47.398 Ari Honarvar: each other's houses in the streets when we could, we 00:35:47.408 --> 00:35:51.818 would just like shake her booty, you know, whatever anything to do a act 00:35:51.838 --> 00:35:54.158 of defiance against the injustice. 00:35:54.458 --> 00:35:59.988 So, in the US, I had all this limited unlimited potential to dance. 00:35:59.998 --> 00:36:01.008 So I used it. 00:36:01.008 --> 00:36:03.718 I just would put on MTV and I would dance. 00:36:03.819 --> 00:36:09.539 And it was yeah, and it just, I, I kept feeling better and better and it mitigated 00:36:09.539 --> 00:36:11.619 my homesickness, which was terrible. 00:36:13.019 --> 00:36:13.959 And yeah. 00:36:14.069 --> 00:36:16.919 And then why did I choose molecular biology? 00:36:17.309 --> 00:36:19.909 I was always very fascinated by. 00:36:20.284 --> 00:36:26.314 The human body and and I originally thought about going to medical school, 00:36:26.314 --> 00:36:31.684 but I had a friend who was a doctor and he said, you're going to be so 00:36:31.684 --> 00:36:33.844 like consumed by medical school. 00:36:33.844 --> 00:36:36.614 You're not going to be, and then you're my life sucks. 00:36:36.614 --> 00:36:39.274 You know, he was not very happy as a, as a doctor. 00:36:39.274 --> 00:36:42.124 So as I changed my mind, I was like, well, maybe I'll become a researcher. 00:36:42.664 --> 00:36:43.104 So. 00:36:44.314 --> 00:36:47.194 Switched to, to to research. 00:36:47.194 --> 00:36:52.074 I was interested in cancer cause my father had cancer and passed away from it. 00:36:52.084 --> 00:36:57.644 So, so that's kind of, I started that and then I got recruited by Nikon, 00:36:57.644 --> 00:37:02.164 the microscope company, or they have a microscope division, the lens company. 00:37:02.544 --> 00:37:04.674 And so I became. 00:37:05.249 --> 00:37:09.749 Tech person, you know, the, the microscope specialist and I would help the 00:37:09.799 --> 00:37:14.759 researchers and it was very interesting to see different types of research that, 00:37:14.819 --> 00:37:20.219 that different university professors were, were involved in the cutting edge 00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:22.689 that I was figuring out the imaging for. 00:37:24.194 --> 00:37:29.724 Rupert Isaacson: How does that become the writer of A Girl Called Rumi and 00:37:30.244 --> 00:37:36.004 the ambassador, the musical ambassador dancing with refugees in war zones? 00:37:36.664 --> 00:37:37.784 That's a bit of a jump. 00:37:37.804 --> 00:37:39.514 Can you please tell us how that happened? 00:37:40.344 --> 00:37:40.864 Ari Honarvar: Sure. 00:37:41.354 --> 00:37:45.944 Well, I blame you for the first part because I remember very clearly we 00:37:45.944 --> 00:37:51.044 were sitting in a cafe and I was telling you, you asked me about my 00:37:51.044 --> 00:37:52.584 story, kind of like you are now. 00:37:52.634 --> 00:37:56.264 And you said, Hey you know, you should write a book. 00:37:56.534 --> 00:38:01.194 And that was the time when no one would be writing, you know, it was not that common. 00:38:01.194 --> 00:38:04.654 Everyone is writing a book now, but I was like, well, I've 00:38:04.654 --> 00:38:06.404 only written technical papers. 00:38:06.404 --> 00:38:10.784 I have no interest in writing or what it was just not part of my world. 00:38:11.244 --> 00:38:17.354 And and then when the science field and the, the tech business was not, 00:38:17.434 --> 00:38:19.354 absolutely did not agree with me. 00:38:19.374 --> 00:38:21.704 I was not the person for this. 00:38:21.714 --> 00:38:23.134 It just felt wrong. 00:38:23.334 --> 00:38:26.364 Every cell of my being was like, do not do this. 00:38:26.994 --> 00:38:31.514 And so, I quit one and then I laid, got laid off from another 00:38:31.514 --> 00:38:33.163 one cause I tried another. 00:38:34.424 --> 00:38:37.764 high tech com or a biotech company and it didn't work out. 00:38:38.304 --> 00:38:40.064 And so I was like, all right, that's it. 00:38:40.174 --> 00:38:42.294 So I became a carpenter's apprentice. 00:38:42.304 --> 00:38:44.274 Someone wanted an apprentice. 00:38:44.314 --> 00:38:45.784 I was like, yeah, I'll do woodworking. 00:38:45.814 --> 00:38:47.014 I'm terrible at that. 00:38:47.314 --> 00:38:51.004 I have no no natural aptitude for it, but I really liked it. 00:38:51.934 --> 00:38:53.904 So, so it was, it was kind of cool. 00:38:53.904 --> 00:38:59.764 And then at the same time I was teaching meditation to teens and I was very 00:38:59.764 --> 00:39:02.664 much into spirituality and Buddhism. 00:39:03.184 --> 00:39:06.854 So, and then I started dancing at the ecstatic dance. 00:39:07.354 --> 00:39:11.164 And and, you know, it kind of like took off from there. 00:39:12.604 --> 00:39:15.334 Rupert Isaacson: Can you tell listeners a little bit about Ecstatic Dance? 00:39:15.404 --> 00:39:19.264 Those, those listeners who know me a little bit will not be at all surprised 00:39:19.264 --> 00:39:20.664 because you know what a big hippie I am. 00:39:21.114 --> 00:39:25.308 To know that I like going into rooms full of people and taking off my shoes and, 00:39:25.769 --> 00:39:29.669 Making a fool of myself and the bigger fool I make of myself the more I enjoy 00:39:29.669 --> 00:39:34.719 it however Ecstatic dance isn't something that everyone is familiar with and I 00:39:34.719 --> 00:39:38.019 always feel they kind of should be because it's one of those things I feel that if 00:39:38.019 --> 00:39:42.639 you fall into it, you realize that you always have this access to happiness and 00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:46.599 well being that I think relatively few people Have can you tell us a little bit 00:39:46.599 --> 00:39:48.379 about what ecstatic dance is, please? 00:39:48.389 --> 00:39:48.769 Sorry. 00:39:50.169 --> 00:39:55.634 Ari Honarvar: Yeah the Well, I mean, I'm not the best person to, I'll 00:39:55.634 --> 00:39:56.814 tell you what my experience was. 00:39:56.954 --> 00:40:02.454 So basically you go into a space and yes, you take off your shoes. 00:40:02.974 --> 00:40:06.584 And you're barefoot and there's a whole bunch of other people and they 00:40:06.584 --> 00:40:09.354 put on this curated set of music. 00:40:09.354 --> 00:40:13.894 Someone has figured out a set that starts with some sort of a 00:40:13.904 --> 00:40:19.384 warm up, some sort of a crescendo and then a cool down at the end. 00:40:19.824 --> 00:40:23.924 And it's about, I think, two or three hours of the time. 00:40:23.954 --> 00:40:28.394 And usually by the end, everyone is sweating and feeling really, really great. 00:40:28.954 --> 00:40:29.884 And I've met some of. 00:40:30.204 --> 00:40:33.624 The most amazing people through dance, including yourself. 00:40:35.314 --> 00:40:35.634 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah. 00:40:35.664 --> 00:40:39.194 It's I, I only discovered it because we, as you know, we were in Austin, 00:40:39.194 --> 00:40:42.154 Texas and we were going to a yoga class. 00:40:42.624 --> 00:40:47.014 And at the end of this yoga class, all these people would start coming into 00:40:47.014 --> 00:40:51.054 the yoga studio and like hugging each other and looking happy and there'd be 00:40:51.054 --> 00:40:55.164 these sort of beginnings of this rather interesting sort of trance y techno y 00:40:55.164 --> 00:40:59.384 music and I remember thinking that sounds, that sounds quite interesting, doesn't it? 00:40:59.634 --> 00:41:02.834 And then I remember hanging out just, just out of curiosity to see, 00:41:02.834 --> 00:41:04.404 well, what do they do, these people? 00:41:04.904 --> 00:41:08.529 And watching sort of entrances. 00:41:08.529 --> 00:41:11.759 Some people like really, really dance and other people like lay around on the 00:41:11.759 --> 00:41:17.349 floor and wept and others, you know, sat in apparent meditation against the wall 00:41:17.349 --> 00:41:18.699 and others did this and others did that. 00:41:18.699 --> 00:41:22.199 And I remember thinking this looks amazing, but I'll never, I'll never 00:41:22.389 --> 00:41:23.769 like I'm not that much of a hippie. 00:41:23.769 --> 00:41:24.989 I'll never really do that. 00:41:24.999 --> 00:41:28.479 And of course, within like two weeks, I was completely hooked. 00:41:28.869 --> 00:41:34.064 Because As you know, I was at that time spending quite a lot of time in 00:41:34.064 --> 00:41:39.504 the Kalahari with, in Southern Africa with San Bushman hunter gatherers, 00:41:39.524 --> 00:41:42.764 you know, on the human rights work that I was doing, and I was seeing 00:41:42.764 --> 00:41:44.364 dance being applied for healing. 00:41:46.019 --> 00:41:49.849 all the time, you know, and healers dancing themselves into trance 00:41:50.019 --> 00:41:54.579 against a backdrop of the people of the clan and the extended families 00:41:54.649 --> 00:41:59.089 dancing, creating a polyphonic chant with clapping and singing. 00:41:59.129 --> 00:42:01.899 And this could go on for 12 hours. 00:42:02.549 --> 00:42:06.959 And I watched cancers being pulled out of people's bodies and shape 00:42:06.959 --> 00:42:08.699 shifting and all of this stuff. 00:42:08.699 --> 00:42:09.349 I saw it. 00:42:09.459 --> 00:42:16.769 And I realized the power of dance, and I realized that dance is, of course, at the 00:42:16.769 --> 00:42:21.679 root of what it means to be human in the same way that, say, storytelling does, 00:42:21.919 --> 00:42:23.759 that we're the ape that speaks, right? 00:42:24.329 --> 00:42:28.529 And that to cut yourself off from dance is really to be kind of sort 00:42:28.529 --> 00:42:30.089 of colonialized in a weird way. 00:42:30.549 --> 00:42:36.859 And of course, in British culture, we are, we are cut off from dance, and except 00:42:36.859 --> 00:42:40.124 in very, very certain stratified ways. 00:42:41.674 --> 00:42:45.894 Situations cause the explosion of techno music and raves to some degree knock that 00:42:45.894 --> 00:42:49.294 sideways But it's still in there to the point that people feel maybe they need to 00:42:49.294 --> 00:42:55.124 take ecstasy or something before they can access You know that intrinsic human state 00:42:57.694 --> 00:42:59.464 Where did you decide 00:43:01.694 --> 00:43:11.654 I'm actually gonna do this as My vocation my metier and and how 00:43:11.654 --> 00:43:13.414 did you get involved with that? 00:43:14.169 --> 00:43:17.229 For healing, for conflict resolution, for peacekeeping, as you do now. 00:43:17.569 --> 00:43:21.869 And tell us please about the organization that you represent and 00:43:22.439 --> 00:43:24.369 just, just give us that story, please. 00:43:26.244 --> 00:43:32.034 Ari Honarvar: Well, interestingly enough, I met Cameron Powers, who was 00:43:32.044 --> 00:43:36.694 the founder of Musical Ambassadors of Peace, the organization that I work with. 00:43:36.944 --> 00:43:38.654 Rupert Isaacson: Musical Ambassadors of Peace. 00:43:39.194 --> 00:43:39.834 Ari Honarvar: Correct. 00:43:39.984 --> 00:43:40.454 Yeah. 00:43:40.684 --> 00:43:44.024 I met him through dancing in Boulder, Colorado. 00:43:44.594 --> 00:43:47.874 And it was the same thing, barefoot boogie, that's what they called 00:43:47.874 --> 00:43:50.784 it then, the ecstatic dancing. 00:43:51.249 --> 00:43:55.519 And I, I was dancing and he started dancing with me and then I found 00:43:55.519 --> 00:44:03.209 out that he and his wife, Christina Sophia, they had just traveled to 00:44:03.519 --> 00:44:06.379 to the to Iraq during the invasion. 00:44:06.679 --> 00:44:08.989 And and they were like, and so the. 00:44:09.169 --> 00:44:09.429 Wow. 00:44:09.929 --> 00:44:10.739 Very. 00:44:11.254 --> 00:44:13.074 very talented musicians. 00:44:13.074 --> 00:44:19.244 They sing in like 10, 12 languages and and they absolutely 00:44:19.504 --> 00:44:21.884 abhorred the way that the U. 00:44:21.884 --> 00:44:22.044 S. 00:44:22.044 --> 00:44:25.734 imperialism has wreaked havoc on so much of the world. 00:44:25.984 --> 00:44:31.874 So they went to the border in Jordan, Iraq and, and Jordan, and 00:44:31.874 --> 00:44:35.499 they were gonna They're like, well, we're not letting any Americans. 00:44:35.499 --> 00:44:36.669 And where is your visa? 00:44:36.669 --> 00:44:38.279 You know, you're not state department. 00:44:38.669 --> 00:44:44.529 And so this Cameron takes out his oud, which is an Middle Eastern 00:44:44.909 --> 00:44:51.219 predecessor to guitar and and starts singing and Christina and, and Cameron 00:44:51.219 --> 00:44:53.239 starts singing Iraqi love songs. 00:44:53.239 --> 00:44:54.869 And it's like, this is our visa. 00:44:55.459 --> 00:45:00.199 And so the, the agents were so floored and they're like, come on in. 00:45:00.989 --> 00:45:05.339 They led them into Iraq and they started singing these love songs on 00:45:05.349 --> 00:45:11.609 the streets of Baghdad and people were like, Oh my God, you're not contractors. 00:45:11.609 --> 00:45:12.579 You're not military. 00:45:12.579 --> 00:45:15.449 You're not here to kill us or make profit off of us. 00:45:16.169 --> 00:45:21.549 And and they're like, yeah, we're, we call ourselves reverse missionaries 00:45:21.839 --> 00:45:27.489 because we're not here to to preach a gospel where we want your stories and 00:45:27.489 --> 00:45:29.439 we want to bring them back to the U. 00:45:29.439 --> 00:45:30.099 S. 00:45:30.239 --> 00:45:34.969 So we, they see what an amazing culture you are. 00:45:35.449 --> 00:45:39.939 And so this gained a lot of fame in that region. 00:45:39.989 --> 00:45:48.309 And they ended up in Cairo performing in front of 60, 000 people in the stadium as 00:45:48.309 --> 00:45:50.849 musical ambassadors to the Middle East. 00:45:51.239 --> 00:45:56.599 And when they And I was like, I would love to work with you guys. 00:45:56.899 --> 00:46:04.239 And this was at the height of the anti Muslim and anti immigrant kind of 00:46:04.259 --> 00:46:10.049 sentiments were just really bubbling up in a, in a terrible way in 2015 or so. 00:46:10.549 --> 00:46:12.989 And so they were like, sure. 00:46:12.999 --> 00:46:16.229 Yeah, let's let's do some roomy shows. 00:46:16.239 --> 00:46:19.239 So I would tell a story or recite a poem. 00:46:19.489 --> 00:46:25.429 And I had like this huge, beautiful ensemble behind me with music and singing. 00:46:26.049 --> 00:46:32.449 And and it was, we called it edutainment, which was to bring, to show a side 00:46:32.449 --> 00:46:36.919 of the Middle East to the American audience that is not, you know, bearded 00:46:36.919 --> 00:46:40.019 men with machine guns, but inclusive. 00:46:40.379 --> 00:46:46.579 wonderful and an inviting culture full of poetry, mysticism, and 00:46:47.009 --> 00:46:50.329 the the kindness and compassion. 00:46:50.769 --> 00:46:56.679 So when we did that, they were then Syrian refugees started coming into 00:46:56.679 --> 00:47:01.519 San Diego and I asked if I could do anything for them besides bringing them. 00:47:01.519 --> 00:47:01.779 We're living 00:47:01.779 --> 00:47:02.849 Rupert Isaacson: in San Diego at this point. 00:47:03.379 --> 00:47:06.479 Ari Honarvar: At this point, I'm living in San Diego and I asked 00:47:06.479 --> 00:47:10.649 him what, what I could do and to help besides bring in donations. 00:47:10.649 --> 00:47:12.639 And they said, start a drum circle. 00:47:13.269 --> 00:47:17.189 And and I was like, isn't that what hippies do in the Bay area? 00:47:17.609 --> 00:47:19.779 Like, what, how's that going to help? 00:47:19.779 --> 00:47:23.959 You know, like it's still, even though the dancing was really helping me, I still 00:47:23.959 --> 00:47:30.744 wasn't convinced that for people who have been, you know, Traumatized doing drumming 00:47:30.754 --> 00:47:36.154 might help, but actually, and then I took a facilitation course with another musical 00:47:36.154 --> 00:47:41.424 ambassador who had been to Kurdistan and Iraq Christine Stevens, and and of 00:47:41.424 --> 00:47:43.334 course, there was like paper after paper. 00:47:43.709 --> 00:47:49.309 Research paper showing how amazing drumming is for refugees, for, for 00:47:49.309 --> 00:47:53.909 the, for the nervous system, for, for recovery from addiction, for 00:47:53.909 --> 00:47:59.609 recovery from, from surgery, for a substance abuse prevention, et cetera. 00:48:00.844 --> 00:48:06.874 So, and I was like, well, I, I, I started doing a drum circle with with 00:48:06.874 --> 00:48:13.074 another Kurdish woman who in town named Ahwaz Ahmed, who is so I was 00:48:13.074 --> 00:48:18.264 from Iran and she's from Iraq and we had our families, probably in France 00:48:18.264 --> 00:48:19.954 had killed each other in the wars. 00:48:20.534 --> 00:48:26.604 And there we are holding a drum circle together for, for refugees from 00:48:26.634 --> 00:48:29.814 Iran, Afghanistan, Syria, and Iraq. 00:48:30.394 --> 00:48:32.744 And it was so transformative. 00:48:33.264 --> 00:48:37.174 And that, and, but drumming is right, wasn't really my thing, 00:48:37.284 --> 00:48:38.904 you know, like I enjoyed it. 00:48:38.904 --> 00:48:42.904 It was transformative, but so, and people wanted to dance. 00:48:42.904 --> 00:48:44.474 They didn't, didn't want to just sit down. 00:48:45.344 --> 00:48:52.554 So we started dancing and that brought this whole other amazing Layer two to 00:48:52.554 --> 00:48:58.754 our work and and so just from trial and error of what works and what doesn't work 00:48:59.064 --> 00:49:07.064 I started just holding these sessions and then the Muslim ban happened in 2017 and 00:49:07.064 --> 00:49:12.914 there were no more new refugees coming from Middle East and At the same time a 00:49:12.914 --> 00:49:16.209 crisis was brewing at the border At the U. 00:49:16.209 --> 00:49:16.379 S. 00:49:16.379 --> 00:49:22.969 Mexico border, and so I shifted my focus to there to the U. 00:49:22.969 --> 00:49:23.129 S. 00:49:23.129 --> 00:49:27.239 Mexico border, and I started holding sessions for asylum 00:49:27.239 --> 00:49:29.804 seekers who were standing. 00:49:30.904 --> 00:49:33.484 This isn't a 18. 00:49:33.664 --> 00:49:33.954 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:49:36.014 --> 00:49:36.434 Ari Honarvar: Yeah. 00:49:36.954 --> 00:49:40.644 In 2018 is when they were doing child separation at the 00:49:40.644 --> 00:49:41.904 border and there was so much. 00:49:43.364 --> 00:49:47.704 And I was as a journalist, I was covering all of that. 00:49:49.779 --> 00:49:50.099 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 00:49:50.099 --> 00:49:51.739 How did you end up being a journalist? 00:49:51.739 --> 00:49:52.829 Because you skipped that bit. 00:49:52.849 --> 00:49:57.309 You went, we went from biotech into meeting these amazing people in 00:49:57.309 --> 00:50:01.059 Boulder and dancing and then find, you know, doing things for refugees. 00:50:01.069 --> 00:50:02.799 Where, where, where and how journalism? 00:50:03.989 --> 00:50:07.459 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, it was very much kind of another coincidence. 00:50:07.684 --> 00:50:13.454 That kind of fell into my lab, not, not intentional, but when the Muslim 00:50:13.464 --> 00:50:20.924 ban happened, I wrote a op ed about I'm a, I'm a refugee from a Muslim, I'm a, 00:50:21.134 --> 00:50:22.944 I'm a refugee from a banned country. 00:50:22.954 --> 00:50:23.854 Here's my story. 00:50:23.874 --> 00:50:27.444 And I told the story of, of my childhood and what. 00:50:27.879 --> 00:50:34.059 Why, why people seek refuge and why we shouldn't shut our door to, 00:50:34.489 --> 00:50:37.889 to refugees coming in from the U. 00:50:37.889 --> 00:50:39.329 S., especially since the U. 00:50:39.329 --> 00:50:39.519 S. 00:50:39.519 --> 00:50:45.519 was, was to blame for much of what had happened in the, in those countries. 00:50:45.999 --> 00:50:50.239 So, So that kind of went viral and and then editors started 00:50:50.249 --> 00:50:53.759 asking me for for opinion pieces. 00:50:53.759 --> 00:50:58.339 And then I started doing more, some investigative just because I was at 00:50:58.339 --> 00:51:00.039 the right place at the right time. 00:51:00.859 --> 00:51:02.899 And and then it kind of took off from there. 00:51:03.949 --> 00:51:06.449 Rupert Isaacson: What did you find as an investigative journalist? 00:51:06.449 --> 00:51:09.759 I mean, were you investigating, for example, the children being 00:51:09.789 --> 00:51:11.609 held and separated and so on? 00:51:11.669 --> 00:51:12.559 And what did you find? 00:51:12.619 --> 00:51:13.299 What should we know? 00:51:14.889 --> 00:51:15.349 Ari Honarvar: Yeah. 00:51:15.349 --> 00:51:20.329 So there the activists, because I was very active in that, in, in those 00:51:20.329 --> 00:51:25.119 circles who were working with the separated kids and their families with 00:51:25.119 --> 00:51:27.539 their, the legal teams and everything. 00:51:28.049 --> 00:51:34.419 One of them brought a piece of paper to me and it just floored me. 00:51:34.969 --> 00:51:35.619 It was. 00:51:36.609 --> 00:51:42.909 a paper tucked into a backpack of a child, six year old Guatemalan 00:51:42.909 --> 00:51:48.979 girl who was separated from her mother at the Texas border. 00:51:49.379 --> 00:51:55.239 And then she was transferred to a Arizona facility, detention facility, 00:51:55.249 --> 00:52:02.319 without her mother, and she was sexually abused at this border, at this detention 00:52:02.319 --> 00:52:05.819 facility, and she had to sign a paper. 00:52:05.819 --> 00:52:11.149 They made her sign, this six year old, they made her sign a paper that said it 00:52:11.159 --> 00:52:18.119 was Responsibility to stay away from her abuser and she couldn't read or write in, 00:52:18.209 --> 00:52:20.939 you know, so, so basically this is was 00:52:20.939 --> 00:52:24.349 Rupert Isaacson: her abuser, a staff member or another refugee. 00:52:25.139 --> 00:52:26.329 Ari Honarvar: It was another kid. 00:52:26.639 --> 00:52:27.119 Okay. 00:52:27.589 --> 00:52:33.989 So the so her signature was this broken D and we had this paper. 00:52:34.269 --> 00:52:36.179 And so I wrote about that. 00:52:36.219 --> 00:52:37.229 And of course. 00:52:37.229 --> 00:52:37.279 Okay. 00:52:38.594 --> 00:52:42.814 Everyone went wild and the senators were retweeting it and 00:52:42.814 --> 00:52:44.844 Trump wrote a tweet about it. 00:52:44.884 --> 00:52:51.884 And and then He said, maybe they should come try to come over legally or something 00:52:51.884 --> 00:52:54.664 like that, but they had come over legally. 00:52:54.664 --> 00:53:00.154 So that's the whole thing to seek out like asylum is absolutely a legal 00:53:00.164 --> 00:53:02.794 thing to do under international law. 00:53:03.334 --> 00:53:09.674 So, so then The detention facility ended up being closed, fortunately, and 00:53:09.674 --> 00:53:15.874 the kid was reunited with her parents, and they all got therapy because of 00:53:15.884 --> 00:53:22.344 the publicity that this got, and they got all their legal fees paid as well. 00:53:24.324 --> 00:53:27.844 Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'm glad that, you can't say it's a happy 00:53:27.844 --> 00:53:30.799 ending, but at least there was hope. 00:53:32.669 --> 00:53:40.199 You know, an attempt to right the wrong when you were going in to spend time with 00:53:40.199 --> 00:53:45.579 these communities who are sitting in camps and so on, and you're dancing with them, 00:53:47.009 --> 00:53:50.999 a, what's the, what's their reaction is, are they like, well, hold on a second, 00:53:50.999 --> 00:53:52.679 we need, you know, practical help. 00:53:52.779 --> 00:53:55.199 What, what, what, what's with this dance thing. 00:53:55.929 --> 00:54:01.454 And then secondly, At what point do they go, no actually we 00:54:01.454 --> 00:54:02.694 really do want this dance thing. 00:54:03.224 --> 00:54:07.464 And then thirdly, what are you dancing? 00:54:10.114 --> 00:54:14.114 Ari Honarvar: So it's interesting because it was never the refugees who 00:54:14.114 --> 00:54:16.554 were the gatekeepers to the dancing. 00:54:16.899 --> 00:54:20.869 They were thrilled to dance from the get go. 00:54:21.239 --> 00:54:23.559 It was, and we never go empty handed. 00:54:23.599 --> 00:54:27.589 We always bring donations because it's kind of ridiculous to ask people 00:54:27.589 --> 00:54:32.639 to, to, you know, dance with you when their basic needs are not met. 00:54:33.139 --> 00:54:36.719 But the, it was the other activists who. 00:54:37.189 --> 00:54:38.819 We're like, what are you doing? 00:54:38.819 --> 00:54:39.959 This is so frivolous. 00:54:39.969 --> 00:54:40.429 They need 00:54:40.699 --> 00:54:42.769 Rupert Isaacson: the sort of Puritan do gooders sort of thing. 00:54:43.269 --> 00:54:43.869 Ari Honarvar: Yeah. 00:54:43.879 --> 00:54:50.299 So it's basically like the colonialized mindset that thinks that doesn't 00:54:50.539 --> 00:54:51.959 everything has to be streamlined. 00:54:51.959 --> 00:54:55.339 Everything has to be according to, they don't look at the whole refugee 00:54:55.349 --> 00:54:58.074 experience or the whole person to see what they're looking for. 00:54:58.174 --> 00:55:03.524 Absolute needs are the fact is what when you're in a camp like that, so 00:55:03.524 --> 00:55:08.054 much of your time, you're spending worrying, you're spending in boredom, 00:55:08.234 --> 00:55:12.984 you're spending having difficult physical ailments, because you're 00:55:12.984 --> 00:55:17.334 not moving your body the way you're supposed to, you're, you're consumed 00:55:17.344 --> 00:55:22.894 by your trauma, you're consumed by so many different Terrible things. 00:55:23.124 --> 00:55:28.494 So when we put on a dance, everyone is just like, Oh my God, thank you. 00:55:28.954 --> 00:55:29.434 You know? 00:55:29.504 --> 00:55:32.204 And so, but I mean, I actually was. 00:55:32.344 --> 00:55:37.064 So I asked the shelter director at, at one point I was like, maybe it is 00:55:37.114 --> 00:55:42.224 because the other activists were like, this is, this is wrong, you should be 00:55:42.224 --> 00:55:46.954 working more on, on the bringing, you know, legal help and medicine and things 00:55:46.954 --> 00:55:51.134 like that which we were, but so I was like, well, maybe I shouldn't do this. 00:55:51.134 --> 00:55:52.924 Maybe this is just like a headache for them. 00:55:52.924 --> 00:55:53.674 Why am I doing this? 00:55:54.164 --> 00:55:57.564 And so I asked the shelter director and they were like, Oh my God. 00:55:57.764 --> 00:56:02.524 No, even if you don't bring anything at all, please bring your dancing because 00:56:03.124 --> 00:56:10.474 once they dance everyone is just so calm and the effects last for several days. 00:56:10.574 --> 00:56:15.344 People have better collaboration, cooperation, headaches disappear, 00:56:15.364 --> 00:56:20.024 need for medication disappears, and and it's just like absolutely needed. 00:56:20.244 --> 00:56:23.874 In fact, during the The COVID lockdowns where I couldn't go to 00:56:23.874 --> 00:56:27.284 Tijuana to dance because there was a lockdown, the borders were closed. 00:56:28.064 --> 00:56:31.244 And we, they're like, we need our dancing. 00:56:31.244 --> 00:56:33.024 So we did our Zoom sessions. 00:56:33.054 --> 00:56:35.634 We started doing Zoom sessions instead. 00:56:37.824 --> 00:56:41.384 Rupert Isaacson: How long, how long would a dance session last like this? 00:56:42.024 --> 00:56:44.014 And again, what are you dancing? 00:56:44.514 --> 00:56:49.224 Is it Taylor Swift or is it like the dancers of the countries 00:56:49.244 --> 00:56:50.634 that, that they have left? 00:56:51.194 --> 00:56:51.514 Or is it both? 00:56:52.449 --> 00:56:56.939 Ari Honarvar: I think it is so important to, to honor the 00:56:56.949 --> 00:56:59.829 population that you're working with. 00:57:00.329 --> 00:57:01.919 Again, this is not my dance. 00:57:01.919 --> 00:57:02.549 This is. 00:57:02.974 --> 00:57:03.794 our group. 00:57:03.984 --> 00:57:05.764 So what are, what are, what are they? 00:57:05.964 --> 00:57:09.834 So if I'm dancing with Haitians, we dance to Haitian music. 00:57:09.844 --> 00:57:14.744 If we, I'm dancing with Ukrainians, we, we dance to Ukrainian music 00:57:15.174 --> 00:57:16.934 and we do the Ukrainian dances. 00:57:16.944 --> 00:57:20.414 They teach me how to do it because I have no idea how to do Ukrainian 00:57:20.414 --> 00:57:22.864 dances, so foreign to my senses. 00:57:23.474 --> 00:57:29.434 And or when I am in Tijuana, a lot of them are from, yes. 00:57:29.954 --> 00:57:35.284 Mexico or South and Central American countries and we dance 00:57:35.314 --> 00:57:38.184 bachata, samba, I mean bachata, 00:57:40.674 --> 00:57:44.674 and salsa and merengue and and then sometimes they teach me 00:57:44.674 --> 00:57:46.034 some dances that I have no idea. 00:57:46.364 --> 00:57:50.514 So, so it's, it's all about the music that makes them feel safe. 00:57:51.014 --> 00:57:56.244 Makes them feel have a sense of belonging works in reparative 00:57:56.774 --> 00:57:59.894 rehumanization and honors their wishes. 00:58:01.554 --> 00:58:03.104 Rupert Isaacson: What's the neuroscience of dance? 00:58:03.204 --> 00:58:04.754 Why does it restore? 00:58:07.984 --> 00:58:13.504 Ari Honarvar: So again the, one of the things that happens when, um, 00:58:14.004 --> 00:58:18.454 when mammals are experiencing danger. 00:58:18.594 --> 00:58:22.154 When they get to a safe place, they shake their body. 00:58:22.334 --> 00:58:23.964 They literally shake it off. 00:58:24.514 --> 00:58:28.794 And somehow we humans used to do that. 00:58:29.534 --> 00:58:31.954 And and we just stopped doing that. 00:58:31.994 --> 00:58:35.574 We stopped shaking our bodies when, after trauma. 00:58:36.074 --> 00:58:41.344 It's a little bit of a mental, emotional hygiene that it's kind of like when you 00:58:41.664 --> 00:58:43.824 get your hands dirty, you wash your hands. 00:58:43.824 --> 00:58:46.934 It's a similar thing that helps keeps us healthy. 00:58:47.124 --> 00:58:48.444 So we don't ingest germs. 00:58:48.454 --> 00:58:53.444 This is so we don't You know, we don't, we don't have the cortisol and the adrenaline 00:58:53.444 --> 00:58:58.174 and the harmful hormones and chemical neurotransmitters just keep going. 00:58:58.174 --> 00:58:58.504 How can you 00:58:58.504 --> 00:58:59.734 Rupert Isaacson: shake off cortisol? 00:58:59.804 --> 00:59:03.534 Cortisol, that's a stress hormone that's now coursing through your system. 00:59:03.784 --> 00:59:05.544 How does shaking mitigate that? 00:59:06.574 --> 00:59:10.464 Ari Honarvar: So it's interesting because you have both cortisol, you 00:59:10.464 --> 00:59:15.854 know, so cortisol doesn't just like stop it it when you're dancing when 00:59:15.854 --> 00:59:20.744 you do pleasurable activities you have cortisol too like dancing or having 00:59:20.744 --> 00:59:26.914 sex or or exercising you also have Cortisol, but it's mitigated with some 00:59:26.934 --> 00:59:32.904 other hormones and neurotransmitters like serotonin oxytocin And endorphins 00:59:32.944 --> 00:59:35.984 and dopamines that flood your body. 00:59:36.244 --> 00:59:38.704 And eventually there's a balance to that. 00:59:39.314 --> 00:59:44.334 And then eventually your, your rest and digest system, which is the 00:59:44.334 --> 00:59:46.614 parasympathetic nervous system kicks in. 00:59:47.204 --> 00:59:51.104 And it It starts and then you feel really good. 00:59:51.114 --> 00:59:56.394 That's when you rest, digest and create rather than be in a survival mode, which 00:59:56.404 --> 01:00:02.514 is when it's just those only the cortisol and adrenaline and other chemicals that 01:00:02.514 --> 01:00:07.094 are, that are only supposed to be like a spike, you know, to get you enough 01:00:07.094 --> 01:00:11.114 stress to get out of a bad situation, you know, you don't want to be. 01:00:11.549 --> 01:00:19.319 In a prolonged situation that is that is present in that you 01:00:19.319 --> 01:00:21.649 Rupert Isaacson: have your sympathetic nervous system excited. 01:00:21.649 --> 01:00:26.209 And then through the dance through these other chemicals, the oxytocin, 01:00:26.219 --> 01:00:32.689 the serotonin, endorphins and so forth, the, the parasympathetic 01:00:33.299 --> 01:00:36.209 can then also become excited and then balance out and take over. 01:00:36.209 --> 01:00:40.529 Is that basically the process? 01:00:41.789 --> 01:00:42.499 Ari Honarvar: It is. 01:00:42.529 --> 01:00:43.669 And once. 01:00:44.099 --> 01:00:51.979 And when you do it together, when you do acts of art or dancing or, or 01:00:51.979 --> 01:00:55.609 anything that is stabilizing to the nervous system and it's together, 01:00:56.039 --> 01:00:59.659 then the effects are amplified. 01:00:59.979 --> 01:01:02.959 I had a doctor at one of my retreats. 01:01:03.519 --> 01:01:08.239 Who told me that the etymology of sympathetic can be tracked back 01:01:08.269 --> 01:01:14.839 to pathos, the Greek word for the disease or feeling of self. 01:01:15.319 --> 01:01:19.079 And sim is the Greek root for together. 01:01:19.359 --> 01:01:25.189 So when it's combined with pathos, it's sympathy means together in feeling. 01:01:25.959 --> 01:01:29.119 And so what causes suffering befalls all of us. 01:01:30.244 --> 01:01:36.334 And so this sympathetic nervous system is really tuned into the environment and 01:01:36.994 --> 01:01:43.074 all that it contains and it automatically decides to activate or, or not based 01:01:43.074 --> 01:01:47.974 on the stimuli it receives and the parasympathetic also when so that becomes 01:01:47.974 --> 01:01:49.134 kind of like a contagious stimulus. 01:01:49.494 --> 01:01:53.484 Contagion when, when we are all like stressed, you know, that's 01:01:53.484 --> 01:01:58.814 how riots happen or impedes and the opposite is absolutely true. 01:01:58.814 --> 01:02:06.114 Joy is very contagious and we all And we all feel that joy and it's amplified 01:02:06.134 --> 01:02:08.914 and we resonate with that together. 01:02:11.534 --> 01:02:11.884 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:02:11.884 --> 01:02:17.624 So we, we, we understand that the parasympathetic has now become active 01:02:17.624 --> 01:02:22.684 with at rest and digest and one can see how for anyone, especially someone who's 01:02:22.684 --> 01:02:24.914 been suffering, this is a good thing. 01:02:25.124 --> 01:02:26.064 What goes on in the brain? 01:02:28.019 --> 01:02:30.279 So once it crosses the blood brain barrier, what goes on there? 01:02:31.369 --> 01:02:36.189 Ari Honarvar: What, what our brain was evolved for was movement, 01:02:36.209 --> 01:02:37.739 otherwise we would be plants. 01:02:37.749 --> 01:02:44.059 So it is, so there's the, the body budget, which the, Refers to the 01:02:44.059 --> 01:02:48.779 constant process of predicting and balancing the body's needs and resources. 01:02:49.429 --> 01:02:55.519 So that it replenishes that body budget that when you cross that, then you got, 01:02:55.549 --> 01:02:57.329 you know, like your cerebellum starts. 01:02:57.954 --> 01:03:04.014 It's producing like Purkinje cells and all sorts of ways to mitigate 01:03:04.044 --> 01:03:09.314 the, the amygdala, which has a you know, it's, again, amygdala is 01:03:09.324 --> 01:03:14.134 also activated during the fight, flight, freeze, et cetera, response. 01:03:14.584 --> 01:03:18.024 But it's also activated during learning. 01:03:18.254 --> 01:03:22.764 It's also activated during learning something new or communicating something. 01:03:23.064 --> 01:03:24.624 You know, that you haven't before. 01:03:24.864 --> 01:03:30.224 So it's when you move in a different way, when you say a different thing, 01:03:30.464 --> 01:03:32.794 your brain keeps getting rewired. 01:03:33.654 --> 01:03:40.064 And so, when, when that, when we keep doing the same thing more and 01:03:40.064 --> 01:03:44.124 more, those, those neural pathways keep getting stronger and stronger. 01:03:44.354 --> 01:03:50.604 So the more that we dance, the more, or we do, we engage in pleasurable activities. 01:03:51.044 --> 01:03:56.274 That activate our parasympathetic nervous system, the more we make 01:03:56.274 --> 01:03:57.684 those pathways stronger and stronger. 01:03:57.684 --> 01:03:57.864 Right. 01:03:57.864 --> 01:03:58.004 Yeah. 01:03:58.004 --> 01:03:58.164 You're 01:03:58.164 --> 01:04:01.444 Rupert Isaacson: talking about novel movement and its effect on the brain. 01:04:01.644 --> 01:04:05.024 You mentioned those cheeky little things a moment ago, Purkinje cells, 01:04:05.234 --> 01:04:08.704 which I always think of as like a Pokemon character bouncing around 01:04:09.114 --> 01:04:10.654 with long floppy ears or something. 01:04:11.094 --> 01:04:13.864 Tell, tell the listeners what's a Purkinje cell and what does it do? 01:04:14.784 --> 01:04:15.594 Why is it a good thing? 01:04:17.174 --> 01:04:21.934 Ari Honarvar: Well, there is It's in that, I guess the base of the cerebellum. 01:04:21.934 --> 01:04:26.524 I have to like look up the, the, the exact definite, you know, the 01:04:26.524 --> 01:04:31.624 exact what it does, but it's a, these are really large neurons. 01:04:31.624 --> 01:04:36.034 And if you look at them under the kind of focal microscope, they're so beautiful. 01:04:36.034 --> 01:04:37.104 They're like a tree. 01:04:37.334 --> 01:04:38.624 Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, or a placenta even. 01:04:38.624 --> 01:04:39.644 Yeah, absolutely. 01:04:40.444 --> 01:04:41.044 Ari Honarvar: Yeah. 01:04:41.264 --> 01:04:41.674 Yeah. 01:04:42.064 --> 01:04:48.924 And and so the once, you know, the, they stimulate the release of, of 01:04:48.924 --> 01:04:55.834 certain chemicals, you got BDNF, you got serotonin, you got oxytocin, 01:04:56.114 --> 01:04:58.524 which is the bonding chemical. 01:04:58.524 --> 01:05:04.949 And it also is active in communication and and, and learning and creating. 01:05:05.429 --> 01:05:10.779 So, so yeah, it's, it's a really beautiful way to there, and 01:05:10.779 --> 01:05:14.899 there's so many other chemical processes that happen in the body. 01:05:15.329 --> 01:05:15.679 Yeah, you 01:05:15.819 --> 01:05:17.999 Rupert Isaacson: mentioned, you mentioned BDNF that's, you 01:05:17.999 --> 01:05:22.099 know, brain derived neurotrophic factor the protein that becomes. 01:05:22.574 --> 01:05:25.604 A stem cell that becomes a neuron stimulated by movement. 01:05:25.704 --> 01:05:30.144 And as you, as you point out, you know, Purkinje cells get fired as part 01:05:30.224 --> 01:05:34.614 of that with our work with autism, those people that know that side of 01:05:34.664 --> 01:05:39.314 me, of my work, we rely very much on the creation of Purkinje cells through 01:05:39.684 --> 01:05:41.884 novel movement, play balancing dance. 01:05:41.884 --> 01:05:44.316 Because with the oxytocin. 01:05:45.836 --> 01:05:49.006 Which is both a feel good hormone, but as you say, a bonding hormone 01:05:49.006 --> 01:05:50.366 that promotes communication. 01:05:50.536 --> 01:05:52.996 Someone has autism, they don't particularly maybe want to communicate, 01:05:52.996 --> 01:05:55.656 and then suddenly they're getting flooded with a communication hormone. 01:05:55.956 --> 01:05:59.636 The Purkinje cells among many other things that they do are 01:05:59.636 --> 01:06:00.976 responsible for social skills. 01:06:01.356 --> 01:06:04.796 So, you know, in my world with autism, I've got someone who has, 01:06:05.076 --> 01:06:06.966 you know, I don't particularly want to communicate ism. 01:06:07.296 --> 01:06:09.466 And then suddenly they're flooded with a communication hormone 01:06:09.606 --> 01:06:12.336 and social skills neurons. 01:06:12.996 --> 01:06:13.876 We see change. 01:06:14.216 --> 01:06:18.706 But one of the things which we absolutely promote is dance, you know, and I'm so 01:06:18.706 --> 01:06:23.616 I'm fascinated by the fact that you're using it so effectively with trauma. 01:06:23.946 --> 01:06:24.896 So okay. 01:06:24.896 --> 01:06:29.306 So you're there in Tijuana which as we know is a gnarly place cartels. 01:06:30.061 --> 01:06:30.661 nasty stuff. 01:06:30.851 --> 01:06:33.521 Are you ever in danger when you go and do these dances? 01:06:35.411 --> 01:06:39.901 Ari Honarvar: I mean Yeah, it's just like anywhere else really but we did 01:06:39.911 --> 01:06:44.681 have a really horrible situation one time at one of the shelters that I danced 01:06:44.681 --> 01:06:49.711 with the shelter directors were were unfortunately tortured and killed and 01:06:49.741 --> 01:06:52.611 hanged from the pole telephone poles 01:06:52.901 --> 01:06:53.351 Rupert Isaacson: Why? 01:06:54.851 --> 01:06:56.821 What point were they making or who who did it? 01:06:57.796 --> 01:07:01.726 Ari Honarvar: I mean, they don't leave a calling card behind, you know, like no one 01:07:01.736 --> 01:07:04.506 Rupert Isaacson: usually when people do something that they 01:07:04.506 --> 01:07:06.236 want you to see like that. 01:07:06.876 --> 01:07:08.386 We don't take them into a backroom and kill them. 01:07:08.526 --> 01:07:09.786 We hang the body wherever we see. 01:07:10.006 --> 01:07:11.336 It's usually to make a statement. 01:07:11.506 --> 01:07:14.216 Fear, fear this for what reason? 01:07:14.216 --> 01:07:15.776 What, what do you think was going on? 01:07:15.776 --> 01:07:16.656 What was the message? 01:07:17.266 --> 01:07:18.876 Ari Honarvar: I honestly don't know. 01:07:18.946 --> 01:07:23.946 And we have asked around and I have found a reason what happened. 01:07:24.606 --> 01:07:29.386 But it could be a number of things like after I do a lot of the dance sessions, 01:07:30.066 --> 01:07:35.596 after every dance session, I meet with people who need a little bit more extra 01:07:35.626 --> 01:07:41.566 support and sometimes they do tell me their stories and a lot of times they 01:07:41.566 --> 01:07:45.826 don't know, they don't know who did anything they're like, I have no idea. 01:07:45.846 --> 01:07:50.166 But I, there, there were like, you need to leave or we're going to kill you. 01:07:50.746 --> 01:07:55.256 even though, you know, they may have mistaken them for a witness or 01:07:55.266 --> 01:07:58.986 they were a witness to something, but they didn't know who did it. 01:07:59.486 --> 01:08:03.056 Still, they are in danger and they have to leave. 01:08:03.096 --> 01:08:09.716 And some of them were shot many times and survived and were, you know, as 01:08:09.716 --> 01:08:11.826 soon as they got better, they left. 01:08:12.206 --> 01:08:12.916 So, yeah. 01:08:13.466 --> 01:08:16.576 Rupert Isaacson: And these directors of the shelter who who murdered. 01:08:18.096 --> 01:08:20.736 Was this in any way connected to the dance or this was just like 01:08:20.736 --> 01:08:23.676 a random thing that happened and suddenly you can't go to that shelter 01:08:23.676 --> 01:08:24.876 anymore because the people are dead? 01:08:26.246 --> 01:08:29.186 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, it's was not connected to the dance. 01:08:29.766 --> 01:08:30.666 Yeah, the, 01:08:32.746 --> 01:08:34.786 Rupert Isaacson: it's terrifying. 01:08:35.336 --> 01:08:40.996 Okay, so this is brave that you go and you do these dances in these places. 01:08:41.486 --> 01:08:45.116 Is San Diego and Tijuana the only place you do it well? 01:08:45.116 --> 01:08:45.806 Where else do you go? 01:08:45.806 --> 01:08:47.186 Do you, do you go around the world doing it? 01:08:47.381 --> 01:08:49.431 How does it work? 01:08:50.131 --> 01:08:50.661 Who sends you? 01:08:50.661 --> 01:08:51.261 Who funds it? 01:08:52.631 --> 01:09:00.311 Ari Honarvar: I have been to Mexicali, and I have been to London, dancing with 01:09:00.311 --> 01:09:06.231 Ukrainian refugees, and I do it, and I do the retreats and workshops all 01:09:06.231 --> 01:09:11.491 over the place, but the dances with the refugees are usually, in San Diego 01:09:11.501 --> 01:09:13.761 or in Tijuana more than anywhere else. 01:09:14.471 --> 01:09:18.641 And Musical Ambassadors of Peace is the usually the funder. 01:09:20.261 --> 01:09:23.811 Rupert Isaacson: So at the end, listeners, we're gonna find out how we 01:09:23.811 --> 01:09:26.171 can support Musical Ambassadors of Peace. 01:09:26.641 --> 01:09:29.801 And I'm gonna ask you about your retreats as well and how people can join them. 01:09:29.801 --> 01:09:34.131 But before then, from dance, let's just go back to poetry. 01:09:34.661 --> 01:09:35.481 So, 01:09:38.631 --> 01:09:41.131 Is to, obviously dancing is physical. 01:09:42.531 --> 01:09:45.721 Poetry, you might dance or declaim, you know, move your 01:09:45.721 --> 01:09:49.171 body while you recite poetry. 01:09:49.871 --> 01:09:53.521 What do, what for you is the difference though, the main difference in the 01:09:53.521 --> 01:09:56.741 process of joy between dance and poetry? 01:09:56.741 --> 01:10:00.121 What, what's going on differently from one to the other? 01:10:01.761 --> 01:10:05.051 Ari Honarvar: Well, what is going on? 01:10:05.331 --> 01:10:05.951 I don't know. 01:10:05.991 --> 01:10:09.381 Every time I recite a poem, I feel like my body really moves in 01:10:09.381 --> 01:10:14.861 a, in a, in a different way that is very potentially dance like. 01:10:16.171 --> 01:10:18.571 Rupert Isaacson: Does poetry, does poetry access trance? 01:10:19.636 --> 01:10:24.326 Do we automatically go into an altered state of consciousness through poetry? 01:10:25.376 --> 01:10:30.106 Ari Honarvar: It absolutely can happen, but any, I mean, there's so many like 01:10:30.106 --> 01:10:37.306 the science of neuroaesthetics, which is how our body and our brain are, They're 01:10:37.396 --> 01:10:43.226 basically the same, but our nervous system response to aesthetic experiences and 01:10:43.286 --> 01:10:50.886 and art shows that, you know, you can get into that state of flow or trance through 01:10:51.351 --> 01:10:57.391 crocheting or through painting or through poetry or storytelling, writing a story. 01:10:57.741 --> 01:11:01.841 So there's so many different ways of, of accessing that. 01:11:05.131 --> 01:11:08.261 Rupert Isaacson: Take us into an altered state of consciousness, please. 01:11:08.381 --> 01:11:12.571 You've recited earlier were you reciting in Farsi or Arabic earlier? 01:11:13.651 --> 01:11:14.571 Ari Honarvar: It's Farsi. 01:11:14.751 --> 01:11:15.291 Okay. 01:11:16.611 --> 01:11:18.281 Rupert Isaacson: Please take us again. 01:11:18.636 --> 01:11:19.476 It's so beautiful. 01:11:20.956 --> 01:11:27.756 A verse that you feel is the verse of now that anyone sitting 01:11:27.756 --> 01:11:32.306 in their car in traffic listening to this might benefit from. 01:12:03.551 --> 01:12:09.831 Ari Honarvar: We are not that un unruly tree that became 01:12:12.641 --> 01:12:14.681 an ax itself. 01:12:17.341 --> 01:12:23.251 When life breaks us, we become music. 01:12:26.621 --> 01:12:28.766 Rupert Isaacson: I would say that took me into an altered state of consciousness. 01:12:29.066 --> 01:12:31.836 Ari Honarvar: It's just 01:12:34.096 --> 01:12:35.166 Rupert Isaacson: a wow is not enough. 01:12:35.666 --> 01:12:40.606 It's I was checking in with what the feeling was in my body. 01:12:41.536 --> 01:12:48.096 So I was responding on a nervous system way just to the beauty of the language. 01:12:49.256 --> 01:12:51.466 Very beautiful language, magical sounding language. 01:12:51.466 --> 01:12:56.326 It sounds to the English ear like somebody recounting a magical 01:12:56.326 --> 01:12:57.826 spell, but a beautiful one. 01:12:58.716 --> 01:13:02.246 And then when you translate it. 01:13:05.071 --> 01:13:13.131 One follows in that sort of curious way, like, tracking, and then you reveal this 01:13:14.981 --> 01:13:17.901 Punchline is the worst word one could think of for it, but you know what I mean? 01:13:20.281 --> 01:13:24.001 When, when life breaks us, we become music, is that right? 01:13:25.121 --> 01:13:29.191 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, so, so the, the, I guess they made palms they 01:13:29.191 --> 01:13:31.741 made axes out of palm trees before. 01:13:32.331 --> 01:13:36.211 It's like, so this kind of like, it's talking about the cycle of violence. 01:13:36.341 --> 01:13:36.681 Yeah. 01:13:36.771 --> 01:13:39.771 The abuser becomes, the abused becomes the abuser. 01:13:39.771 --> 01:13:45.491 Someone who's been cut down becomes the axe themselves to cut somebody else down. 01:13:45.821 --> 01:13:49.581 But when they cut us down, we become a musical instrument. 01:13:49.591 --> 01:13:50.931 We become music itself. 01:13:50.951 --> 01:13:52.591 Rupert Isaacson: Oh, 01:13:56.851 --> 01:13:58.701 Ari Honarvar: through which music flows. 01:14:00.281 --> 01:14:00.821 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:14:00.881 --> 01:14:05.051 So you're also an author and you're the author of a very 01:14:05.051 --> 01:14:08.461 poetic book, A Girl Called Rumi. 01:14:11.761 --> 01:14:18.521 Tell us first, before you tell us about that book and the story of 01:14:18.521 --> 01:14:20.941 that book, I don't want, I want you to tell it, I don't want to tell it. 01:14:22.371 --> 01:14:26.011 Just remind those listeners who do not know Rumi, because one always 01:14:26.011 --> 01:14:29.111 forgets that there are people out there who don't know who Rumi was. 01:14:30.081 --> 01:14:30.831 Who was Rumi? 01:14:31.451 --> 01:14:32.981 And why did you choose 01:14:35.211 --> 01:14:37.891 him for the title in that way? 01:14:38.211 --> 01:14:39.821 And then tell us about the book, please. 01:14:41.136 --> 01:14:44.726 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, Rumi is the 13th century poet and mystic. 01:14:44.726 --> 01:14:52.836 He's his best selling poet, I guess, internationally now because of the 01:14:52.846 --> 01:14:58.686 translations that, or the interpretations that have been, have rendered him more 01:14:58.686 --> 01:15:01.756 popular than, than even during his time. 01:15:02.096 --> 01:15:08.796 But he was a scholar and a like a Quran scholar, like a religious scholar that 01:15:09.266 --> 01:15:14.636 basically was like, Yeah, I'm putting my practices aside and I'm gonna 01:15:14.866 --> 01:15:21.456 because I'm filled with poetry and and he has so many relevant verses that 01:15:21.526 --> 01:15:28.056 keep showing up in in the zeitgeist in both Iran and internationally. 01:15:28.526 --> 01:15:35.706 And I grew up with Rumi like reciting his words before I could read or write. 01:15:36.441 --> 01:15:40.741 And and so definitely there is something in there and Hafez 01:15:40.761 --> 01:15:43.041 too, but when in, in the U. 01:15:43.041 --> 01:15:43.171 S. 01:15:43.181 --> 01:15:49.361 somehow Rumi, Rumi's words resonated with me more than, than Hafez 01:15:49.361 --> 01:15:50.741 at the time when I was in the U. 01:15:50.741 --> 01:15:50.756 S. 01:15:51.056 --> 01:15:54.906 just like so enthralled by rediscovering him. 01:15:54.906 --> 01:16:00.876 He, he just kind of like, found me like a long lost lover or, or beloved 01:16:00.876 --> 01:16:03.216 who just kept knocking on my door. 01:16:03.216 --> 01:16:04.816 And I was like, Oh my God, it's you. 01:16:04.816 --> 01:16:10.306 I'll put you aside because I was trying to assimilate into this crazy culture of, of 01:16:10.306 --> 01:16:13.266 the U S and now I can be with you again. 01:16:13.956 --> 01:16:19.226 And And I would just walk into, to different gatherings and when someone 01:16:19.226 --> 01:16:23.776 would ask me a question, just as in Iran, where we would answer with 01:16:23.776 --> 01:16:28.066 a verse of poetry, I would answer with a verse of Rumi in Farsi. 01:16:28.536 --> 01:16:32.716 And people didn't learn, like, oh my god, she's gone crazy, let's, let's, let's, 01:16:34.336 --> 01:16:35.966 They were like, Oh my God, what is that? 01:16:36.306 --> 01:16:37.346 That sounds beautiful. 01:16:37.376 --> 01:16:38.306 Can you translate it? 01:16:38.606 --> 01:16:42.336 So that's kind of how I started translating Rumi. 01:16:42.376 --> 01:16:48.536 And then the book, I call it a girl called Rumi was because the main character is 01:16:48.536 --> 01:16:53.956 a nine year old who has to deal with hijab laws and and all sorts of stuff. 01:16:53.956 --> 01:16:55.066 And based on my own experience. 01:16:56.606 --> 01:17:01.166 And at one point she meets this mysterious storyteller. 01:17:01.636 --> 01:17:10.956 And what she does is that he asks her for her name and she doesn't want to tell her 01:17:11.226 --> 01:17:17.146 then her name, because she thinks that he could have some magical power over her. 01:17:17.326 --> 01:17:19.006 So she says, my name is Rumi. 01:17:19.546 --> 01:17:19.846 So 01:17:22.636 --> 01:17:23.266 what happens? 01:17:24.911 --> 01:17:26.851 Rupert Isaacson: Give us just a little bit of what happens, but 01:17:26.851 --> 01:17:28.291 not enough to give the story away. 01:17:30.341 --> 01:17:34.321 Ari Honarvar: So basically the story is a story of family bonds and what's 01:17:34.321 --> 01:17:40.121 hap what happens to relationships when an entire region is thrown in 01:17:40.131 --> 01:17:45.721 the crucible of political oppression and war and at a deeper level. 01:17:46.031 --> 01:17:52.321 It's that story of yearning for liberation from suffering and how 01:17:52.341 --> 01:17:55.276 can we Revisit our relationship. 01:17:55.276 --> 01:17:59.006 It's suffering with the unknown with our imagination. 01:17:59.556 --> 01:18:03.096 So yeah, that's the the story. 01:18:03.766 --> 01:18:05.416 Rupert Isaacson: I can, I can recommend it. 01:18:05.546 --> 01:18:06.936 Listeners garden by it. 01:18:06.946 --> 01:18:07.836 It's a brilliant read. 01:18:09.226 --> 01:18:16.526 And it will reveal a lot about a different lens to look at through for the Middle 01:18:16.526 --> 01:18:20.796 East, which is constantly thrust in front of our eyes in a different way. 01:18:22.506 --> 01:18:26.886 Rumi himself was a refugee too, was he not? 01:18:27.236 --> 01:18:30.396 He, yeah, tell us about his life a little bit. 01:18:32.071 --> 01:18:35.581 Ari Honarvar: Yeah, I think he was, he migrated at the age of 12. 01:18:35.591 --> 01:18:41.861 He was born in Balkh, which is the in in Afghanistan, in modern day Afghanistan. 01:18:41.861 --> 01:18:50.091 At the time it was all one place and then he moved to Turkey to , and 01:18:50.091 --> 01:18:53.281 that's where he met his beloved. 01:18:53.281 --> 01:18:58.641 Someone who at this old, her heretic who comes in and and they just kind 01:18:58.641 --> 01:19:04.081 of, have this spiritual connection and, and he just forgets about 01:19:04.081 --> 01:19:07.141 his religion and his po his his. 01:19:07.451 --> 01:19:13.471 scholarship and he just goes right into this love affair with this madman 01:19:13.871 --> 01:19:18.881 and we don't know if it's an actual love affair or a just a spiritual 01:19:19.131 --> 01:19:25.111 or a platonic love affair but what we do know that he started composing 01:19:25.121 --> 01:19:30.171 all these poems like 10, 000 verses or more out of this and he had never 01:19:30.621 --> 01:19:33.921 wrote a single line before beforehand. 01:19:37.311 --> 01:19:41.321 Rupert Isaacson: When I read Rumi It does not sound Muslim to me. 01:19:41.361 --> 01:19:43.811 You know, it doesn't, it sounds much more universal. 01:19:43.911 --> 01:19:46.671 The boys I went to school with who were Muslim did not. 01:19:46.806 --> 01:19:55.066 The, the language he's using reads kind of like the song of Solomon out of the Bible. 01:19:55.076 --> 01:19:59.566 You know, it, it's, it's about love. 01:19:59.776 --> 01:20:01.046 It's about the beloved. 01:20:01.636 --> 01:20:07.096 It's, you can't tell if it's erotically charged or if it's platonically charged. 01:20:07.096 --> 01:20:10.606 And it doesn't matter because it's a spiritual love either way. 01:20:11.026 --> 01:20:12.516 And the sort of mad joy of. 01:20:17.536 --> 01:20:23.966 Connecting with that universal love that is the truth given that that is 01:20:23.976 --> 01:20:30.796 not everybody's perception of Islam and certainly the young men who are pointing 01:20:30.796 --> 01:20:36.796 their rifles at the Lady in your mother's yard who was having the seizure and who 01:20:36.796 --> 01:20:38.466 were trying to make you guys wear hijabs. 01:20:39.126 --> 01:20:43.931 They were not Speaking that language or coming from that position. 01:20:45.711 --> 01:20:48.581 What branch of Islam 01:20:50.811 --> 01:20:52.551 was Rumi? 01:20:53.011 --> 01:20:56.411 I know, in fact, a bit, but I know a lot of listeners will not. 01:20:57.131 --> 01:21:04.641 And where does that still exist within the sort of modern expression of Islam? 01:21:04.641 --> 01:21:08.611 Because, because it's unfortunately not what's projected, really. 01:21:09.291 --> 01:21:10.991 Could you just speak to that a little bit? 01:21:14.381 --> 01:21:15.691 Ari Honarvar: So, yeah. 01:21:16.221 --> 01:21:23.101 So first of all, the translations that are most popular are written by 01:21:24.836 --> 01:21:30.606 European, from a European centric gaze by white men who don't speak Farsi. 01:21:31.286 --> 01:21:34.796 So I would not trust those translations, the most popular ones. 01:21:34.806 --> 01:21:40.156 There are several other translations who are by Farsi speakers who You 01:21:40.156 --> 01:21:46.136 know, can have a lot of the original text and the original text is 01:21:46.256 --> 01:21:48.956 brimming with religion and Islam. 01:21:49.956 --> 01:21:49.976 Rupert Isaacson: So, 01:21:50.326 --> 01:21:53.696 Ari Honarvar: so it's, it's fascinating that the, 01:21:53.726 --> 01:21:55.296 Rupert Isaacson: But it's not calling for jihad and it's not 01:21:55.316 --> 01:21:56.791 calling for vengeance and it's not 01:21:56.791 --> 01:21:57.426 Ari Honarvar: Absolutely not. 01:21:57.436 --> 01:21:58.246 That's the thing. 01:21:58.266 --> 01:21:58.436 It's 01:21:58.446 --> 01:22:01.591 Rupert Isaacson: not pouring, it's not talking about infidels or so forth. 01:22:01.746 --> 01:22:02.581 Ari Honarvar: Not, not at all. 01:22:02.581 --> 01:22:03.031 Not at all. 01:22:03.031 --> 01:22:09.241 So the, the, the popular transitions cut him off from his Islamic roots. 01:22:09.241 --> 01:22:13.691 It's kind of like cutting Martin Luther King from his religious. 01:22:14.911 --> 01:22:16.101 Christian roots. 01:22:16.871 --> 01:22:21.711 Now, Martin Luther King was not a Christian nationalist. 01:22:21.801 --> 01:22:26.441 He was not the, you know, the extremist at all. 01:22:26.441 --> 01:22:29.611 He was preaching love, but he was very much Christian. 01:22:29.621 --> 01:22:31.691 Same thing with, with Rumi. 01:22:31.701 --> 01:22:37.331 He was a Sufi devoted, but his flavor of Sufism is 01:22:39.941 --> 01:22:47.001 Not, you know, what he sees God or goddess is like as as the beloved rather 01:22:47.001 --> 01:22:53.081 than this God of fire and brimstone that the extremists seem to to claim. 01:22:53.081 --> 01:22:53.431 Right. 01:22:53.541 --> 01:22:54.631 Rupert Isaacson: Tell us about Sufism. 01:22:54.791 --> 01:23:00.201 How does Sufism different differ from Wahhabi or, you know, some 01:23:00.211 --> 01:23:01.511 of these other more extreme? 01:23:02.541 --> 01:23:04.461 How did where did Sufism come from? 01:23:04.681 --> 01:23:06.221 And why is Sufism not? 01:23:06.936 --> 01:23:08.106 What we know from Islam. 01:23:10.026 --> 01:23:18.826 Ari Honarvar: Well, it's the mystical side of or the mystical Flavor of Islam. 01:23:18.926 --> 01:23:21.076 That's what what Sufism is. 01:23:21.596 --> 01:23:31.286 It originated in the Middle East and and it predates Rumi By, you know, I 01:23:31.286 --> 01:23:36.756 don't know how long but it, it just came out of this notion that we are 01:23:36.756 --> 01:23:39.696 responsible for our own spirituality. 01:23:40.056 --> 01:23:45.686 The, there is no God outside of us that will punish us or. 01:23:46.051 --> 01:23:49.531 or or give us a reward afterwards. 01:23:50.601 --> 01:23:54.921 And same thing with Christianity here, you know, like the 01:23:57.671 --> 01:24:01.521 mainstream Christianity is so different than the, the more 01:24:01.831 --> 01:24:06.391 mystical sides of Christianity that that we are accustomed to. 01:24:06.831 --> 01:24:13.101 That we see in that is more fringe and it's not super mainstream where it's 01:24:13.121 --> 01:24:19.381 more inclusive and allowing and and embraces dance and embraces singing. 01:24:21.266 --> 01:24:21.506 So 01:24:21.556 --> 01:24:22.366 Rupert Isaacson: that's my question. 01:24:22.366 --> 01:24:26.246 Why is that not the Islam that is projected? 01:24:27.516 --> 01:24:30.856 Why is that not the Islam that we know? 01:24:32.616 --> 01:24:36.876 Ari Honarvar: Extremism seems to have a way to to crush, you 01:24:36.876 --> 01:24:44.346 know, the, the others, the other expressions of religion or philosophy. 01:24:44.786 --> 01:24:47.116 And we see that here in the U. 01:24:47.116 --> 01:24:47.506 S. 01:24:47.536 --> 01:24:52.766 with the, a lot of Christians who are extremists who are in the government 01:24:52.796 --> 01:24:56.366 and are driving the laws in the U. 01:24:56.366 --> 01:24:56.606 S. 01:24:56.636 --> 01:24:57.256 as well. 01:24:57.556 --> 01:24:59.956 They're oppressing and suppressing 01:25:00.146 --> 01:25:00.846 Rupert Isaacson: without doubt. 01:25:00.876 --> 01:25:03.576 I mean, what, what's interesting though, you know, I'm a medieval historian. 01:25:03.576 --> 01:25:04.786 That's what I did my degree in. 01:25:05.046 --> 01:25:06.996 So I had to do a lot of church history, right. 01:25:07.466 --> 01:25:11.916 And some, but not much of the interplay between Christianity and 01:25:11.916 --> 01:25:13.576 Islam because of the, the crusades. 01:25:14.086 --> 01:25:16.316 And then later the, you know, Ottoman. 01:25:16.791 --> 01:25:23.611 Colonial adventures within Europe but one knows really quite well documented 01:25:23.621 --> 01:25:29.171 why mystic Christianity got kicked into the trash can because the, 01:25:31.301 --> 01:25:36.381 gosh, up until about the third century AD, Christianity was Christianities, 01:25:36.651 --> 01:25:40.281 like lots and lots and lots of different sects of various kinds all over the 01:25:40.281 --> 01:25:43.841 place of course, all bickering with each other, but no one had the upper hand. 01:25:44.081 --> 01:25:48.991 And then with The first Roman emperor, Constantine, deciding to make 01:25:48.991 --> 01:25:52.501 Christianity a state religion after having tried a couple of other ones, 01:25:52.501 --> 01:25:56.181 by the way, tried the cult of Sol Invictus, and it didn't quite do it. 01:25:56.211 --> 01:26:00.331 And then, and then he also killed his wife and son in law, no, 01:26:00.831 --> 01:26:02.691 yeah, his wife and son, actually. 01:26:03.181 --> 01:26:05.101 And like this idea of absolution. 01:26:05.321 --> 01:26:07.771 So, he thought, well, maybe I'd go for the Christian thing because 01:26:07.771 --> 01:26:08.851 then I could be forgiven for that. 01:26:09.321 --> 01:26:12.881 So there are various reasons, but the main reason was that was a time of 01:26:12.881 --> 01:26:15.521 massive civil wars in the Roman Empire. 01:26:15.641 --> 01:26:22.081 And the idea was to take a, something that you could use to unify people's perception 01:26:22.121 --> 01:26:28.561 of government through spirituality, and that had been there previously 01:26:28.561 --> 01:26:30.141 with the deification of emperors. 01:26:31.816 --> 01:26:35.026 Where the Emperor was seen as a god, but somehow that had become eroded perhaps 01:26:35.026 --> 01:26:38.536 because the Emperors were replacing themselves every six months Sometimes the 01:26:38.536 --> 01:26:42.396 four different ones on the throne at any one time so it lost its credibility So 01:26:42.396 --> 01:26:46.106 he comes in and then there's this thing called the Council of Nicaea where they 01:26:46.116 --> 01:26:51.556 decide All right We're going to create a Roman Church and this is the Catholic 01:26:51.756 --> 01:26:55.596 Church meaning Catholic Universal and all those other ones over there those 01:26:55.861 --> 01:26:59.221 Aryans, and those Manichaeans, and those Donatists, and all those other ones. 01:26:59.221 --> 01:27:03.851 No, no, they're not, we're gonna get the sort of state seal, ba boom, and 01:27:03.861 --> 01:27:07.071 we have these institutions of the Roman Empire anywhere a thousand years old. 01:27:07.291 --> 01:27:09.401 We're gonna bring those to birth, and we can do this so that we 01:27:09.401 --> 01:27:15.061 can, you know, get social control, stabilization, taxation, and so on. 01:27:15.341 --> 01:27:19.036 And then gradually through the fourth century, It just 01:27:19.036 --> 01:27:20.306 becomes more and more extreme. 01:27:20.976 --> 01:27:23.136 It starts quite tolerant, it becomes more and more extreme. 01:27:23.626 --> 01:27:28.196 And then it becomes the extreme Christianity that we know. 01:27:28.196 --> 01:27:31.406 Then there's a brief resurgence, right about the time of Rumi, 01:27:31.466 --> 01:27:33.506 with, of Christian mysticism. 01:27:33.936 --> 01:27:36.946 People like Hildegard of Bingen, the Cathars in Southern 01:27:36.946 --> 01:27:37.906 France, and all of this. 01:27:37.906 --> 01:27:39.386 Saying, no, no, no, it's all about love and peace. 01:27:39.386 --> 01:27:42.886 And of course the Pope goes, nah, ha, ha, and launches crusades 01:27:42.886 --> 01:27:44.476 against all these people. 01:27:44.876 --> 01:27:47.956 And To a large degree squashes them. 01:27:48.606 --> 01:27:52.196 And then, you know, when you have Martin Luther coming along a 01:27:52.196 --> 01:27:55.016 bit later saying, Hey, hey, hey, this has all gotten very corrupt. 01:27:55.356 --> 01:27:56.766 Then, of course, massive reaction. 01:27:56.766 --> 01:28:00.026 And that's where you get the Spanish Inquisition and, and also the reconquest 01:28:00.026 --> 01:28:04.106 of Spain, you know, from the, from the Muslims, you know, cracking 01:28:04.106 --> 01:28:07.711 down on, Well, if they, if they convert, are they really Christians? 01:28:07.711 --> 01:28:10.101 We need an inquisition to find out, you know, or are they, you 01:28:10.101 --> 01:28:12.431 know, actually going to come along and try to get the caliphates 01:28:12.481 --> 01:28:13.651 going again and blah, blah, blah. 01:28:14.021 --> 01:28:18.681 So you can sort of trace it within Christianity quite well because 01:28:18.681 --> 01:28:20.351 it's, it's, it's written down. 01:28:20.681 --> 01:28:24.181 You can see what the guys were actually saying in these, in these conferences, 01:28:24.231 --> 01:28:28.796 but with Islam, what's interesting is, I presume that does exist, that record does 01:28:28.796 --> 01:28:33.636 exist, but obviously we in the West don't get taught it unless we do some specialist 01:28:34.026 --> 01:28:36.296 medieval Middle Eastern studies. 01:28:36.636 --> 01:28:38.346 What do you think 01:28:40.556 --> 01:28:45.516 was the reason why something like Sufism arose in the first place? 01:28:46.576 --> 01:28:51.636 Like, one can say with Christian mysticism, the Christ message is in and of 01:28:51.636 --> 01:28:53.866 itself about forgiveness and love, right? 01:28:53.896 --> 01:28:57.166 That's what he's saying in the New Testament, and then the church 01:28:57.166 --> 01:28:58.326 does whatever it does with that. 01:29:00.686 --> 01:29:00.916 What? 01:29:02.936 --> 01:29:10.666 What did this Mystic Branch of Islam come from with its love and peace message. 01:29:10.666 --> 01:29:15.936 And why was that so radically different from the Shia Sunni stuff that, you 01:29:15.936 --> 01:29:20.256 know, what do you know what, was there a mechanism similar to that one, that 01:29:20.256 --> 01:29:21.696 Christian one that I just outlined? 01:29:21.696 --> 01:29:25.316 Or where, where did, where did Sufism even come from? 01:29:27.451 --> 01:29:32.241 Ari Honarvar: I believe it was like around after the death of prophet Muhammad 01:29:32.241 --> 01:29:35.201 it, it appeared in in Saudi Arabia. 01:29:35.221 --> 01:29:40.271 That was like the, the place where it originated, but it didn't really solidify 01:29:40.271 --> 01:29:47.081 until the 12th century and order and and where people were actually practicing it. 01:29:49.976 --> 01:29:53.886 Rupert Isaacson: And is Sufism still alive and well, or does it just exist now, 01:29:54.146 --> 01:29:55.776 only in the pages of people like Rumi? 01:29:56.396 --> 01:29:58.226 Ari Honarvar: No, it definitely is alive and well. 01:29:58.226 --> 01:30:01.456 There are several different orders of Sufism. 01:30:02.476 --> 01:30:05.646 Rupert Isaacson: And are they, do they find themselves under pressure 01:30:05.686 --> 01:30:09.306 or persecution from mainstream Islam? 01:30:10.276 --> 01:30:11.286 Ari Honarvar: Yes, they do. 01:30:11.806 --> 01:30:14.316 Iran, there, there are crackdowns. 01:30:14.331 --> 01:30:17.961 Okay, 01:30:18.221 --> 01:30:20.421 Rupert Isaacson: so anything good, anything fun, can't have that. 01:30:21.721 --> 01:30:33.291 Well, I, I would hope that the Western perception could begin to include Sufism. 01:30:33.291 --> 01:30:40.291 And I think that the work that you do is helpful with that massively. 01:30:40.751 --> 01:30:43.451 You talk about the, you know, the word ambassador. 01:30:44.531 --> 01:30:46.591 I think we need these ambassadors. 01:30:48.681 --> 01:30:49.421 So 01:30:51.841 --> 01:30:55.191 you're out there doing that, you're doing that now through dance, you're 01:30:55.191 --> 01:30:59.421 doing that through your writing, you're helping refugees, you're running retreats. 01:30:59.841 --> 01:31:02.181 Can you tell us a little bit about these retreats? 01:31:02.191 --> 01:31:06.661 And then can you also tell us how we can find out more about your work 01:31:06.721 --> 01:31:08.681 and how we can support your work? 01:31:10.941 --> 01:31:11.301 Ari Honarvar: Yeah. 01:31:11.321 --> 01:31:19.726 So when I was working with refugees, there were medical crews or, asylum attorneys 01:31:19.726 --> 01:31:26.386 who were present sometimes in the camps to do legal assistance or doing you 01:31:26.386 --> 01:31:28.476 know, medical checkups on the refugees. 01:31:28.506 --> 01:31:32.116 And when they saw that, it's like, Hey, can you do something for that? 01:31:32.756 --> 01:31:34.286 Something like that for us. 01:31:34.426 --> 01:31:39.116 So that's kind of how it began me giving workshops to mental 01:31:39.116 --> 01:31:43.486 health care workers, health care workers, asylum attorneys and such. 01:31:43.806 --> 01:31:49.861 And now I do that for The broader audience as well and basically is that 01:31:50.031 --> 01:31:56.681 you know, just going through different ways to stabilize our nervous system. 01:31:56.701 --> 01:32:03.876 And what my new series is called deep rest retreats, deep rest reset. 01:32:04.106 --> 01:32:09.576 Retreat so we can really fully arrest and do it together so 01:32:09.576 --> 01:32:12.226 it can amplify the benefits. 01:32:12.246 --> 01:32:16.956 And then we come up with ways to have those kind of mental 01:32:16.956 --> 01:32:19.246 emotional hygiene's through the day. 01:32:19.566 --> 01:32:22.296 As, as we wake up every day, what can we do? 01:32:22.296 --> 01:32:26.326 And we have buddies that we pair up with and support groups that do that. 01:32:26.706 --> 01:32:31.256 People can support each other through the journey of rewiring their nervous 01:32:31.256 --> 01:32:35.856 system in a way that is beneficial to them and society and mitigates 01:32:36.596 --> 01:32:42.556 the effects of vicarious trauma that we're constantly bombarded with, 01:32:42.616 --> 01:32:45.806 especially in those kinds of situations. 01:32:46.256 --> 01:32:47.826 Rupert Isaacson: How do we join one of your retreats? 01:32:48.916 --> 01:32:52.206 Ari Honarvar: I don't have one for the public scheduled. 01:32:52.256 --> 01:33:00.991 This Yet but you can look through my sub stack or my roomiewithavew. 01:33:00.991 --> 01:33:04.281 com, which is my website under events. 01:33:04.321 --> 01:33:09.151 When there are public events, I social I, yeah, I put it there. 01:33:09.781 --> 01:33:10.311 Rupert Isaacson: Roomiewithavew. 01:33:11.021 --> 01:33:11.321 com. 01:33:11.851 --> 01:33:14.791 So if people want to join one of your retreats, they can contact you there. 01:33:15.666 --> 01:33:16.186 Ari Honarvar: Yes. 01:33:16.266 --> 01:33:16.686 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:33:17.066 --> 01:33:19.756 And spoiler alert listeners those of you who know, we'll 01:33:19.756 --> 01:33:21.186 be moving to Spain next year. 01:33:21.626 --> 01:33:23.866 We will be having our own retreat center. 01:33:24.106 --> 01:33:26.996 So we're definitely going to be asking Ari to come and lead 01:33:26.996 --> 01:33:27.956 one of her retreats there. 01:33:28.426 --> 01:33:31.596 So hopefully you'll be able to join up for that too. 01:33:31.626 --> 01:33:34.556 I'll, I'll be posting that if Ari agrees, which I hope she will. 01:33:36.931 --> 01:33:41.431 Ari Honarvar: It's so funny because I was telling a friend about you know, meeting 01:33:41.521 --> 01:33:45.071 or re getting re acquainted with you. 01:33:45.611 --> 01:33:50.861 And I was talking about the autistic population and the refugee population. 01:33:51.351 --> 01:33:53.771 And they said it's funny because. 01:33:54.521 --> 01:34:02.221 All of us are pretty much neurodivergent, and all of us are refugees, so this should 01:34:02.231 --> 01:34:07.401 be a really beautiful collaboration, whatever we end up doing together. 01:34:07.541 --> 01:34:07.551 I 01:34:07.551 --> 01:34:08.101 Rupert Isaacson: can't wait. 01:34:08.361 --> 01:34:09.061 I can't wait. 01:34:10.141 --> 01:34:14.461 Alright, I know you need to go soon, so I'm just going to ask you to 01:34:14.461 --> 01:34:18.351 wrap up with a last verse for us. 01:34:19.081 --> 01:34:23.291 If you're going to wish our listeners well as they go home. 01:34:23.891 --> 01:34:26.381 Out of this altered state of consciousness of listening to your 01:34:26.381 --> 01:34:28.831 amazing story and back into their lives. 01:34:29.681 --> 01:34:31.161 What would you like to leave us with? 01:34:31.161 --> 01:34:31.924 Maporsid, 01:34:31.924 --> 01:34:40.323 Ari Honarvar: maporsid ze ahval haqiqat ke ma bade parastim na peymane shomareen. 01:34:40.323 --> 01:34:48.721 Maporsid, maporsid ze ahval haqiqat ke ma bade parastim na peymane 01:34:52.001 --> 01:34:53.311 shomareen. 01:34:55.591 --> 01:34:59.361 Don't ask us to dissect truth. 01:35:00.841 --> 01:35:09.591 We are worshippers of the sacred wine, not accountants of wine cups. 01:35:13.661 --> 01:35:14.171 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you. 01:35:15.151 --> 01:35:15.591 Thank you. 01:35:18.491 --> 01:35:19.171 RumiWithAView. 01:35:19.221 --> 01:35:24.681 com, the book, A Girl Called Rumi, garden by it. 01:35:26.591 --> 01:35:30.491 We'll be giving more information about the retreats. 01:35:32.361 --> 01:35:33.381 Ari, it's been an honor. 01:35:33.451 --> 01:35:35.381 Thank you so much for giving us the time. 01:35:36.371 --> 01:35:38.121 Ari Honarvar: Oh, it was such a pleasure. 01:35:38.121 --> 01:35:44.481 And I was very excited to learn about the European history, medieval history 01:35:44.481 --> 01:35:46.941 that you, you generously offered. 01:35:46.951 --> 01:35:47.651 So thank you. 01:35:47.881 --> 01:35:48.591 Rupert Isaacson: Well, my pleasure. 01:35:49.741 --> 01:35:50.111 All right. 01:35:50.151 --> 01:35:52.051 Until the next time, I hope you'll come on again. 01:35:54.101 --> 01:35:54.521 Ari Honarvar: Thank you. 01:35:54.561 --> 01:35:55.311 Absolutely. 01:35:55.681 --> 01:35:56.091 Rupert Isaacson: Okay. 01:35:56.831 --> 01:35:57.991 Until then, be well. 01:35:58.781 --> 01:35:59.371 Ari Honarvar: You as well. 01:36:00.399 --> 01:36:01.509 Rupert Isaacson: Thank you for joining us. 01:36:01.539 --> 01:36:03.369 We hope you enjoyed today's podcast. 01:36:03.607 --> 01:36:08.647 Join our website, new trails learning.com, to check out our online 01:36:08.647 --> 01:36:13.837 courses and live workshops in Horse Boy Method, movement Method, and Athena. 01:36:14.545 --> 01:36:19.193 These evidence-based programs have helped children, veterans, and people 01:36:19.193 --> 01:36:21.203 dealing with trauma around the world. 01:36:21.530 --> 01:36:25.280 We also offer a horse training program and self-care program 01:36:25.280 --> 01:36:28.520 for riders on long ride home.com. 01:36:28.819 --> 01:36:32.869 These include easy to do online courses and tutorials that 01:36:32.869 --> 01:36:34.789 bring you and your horse joy. 01:36:35.325 --> 01:36:39.885 For an overview of all shows and programs, go to rupert isaacson.com. 01:36:40.215 --> 01:36:41.145 See you on the next show. 01:36:41.558 --> 01:36:44.248 And please remember to press, subscribe and share.