[00:00:00] Dan: Hello and welcome back to We Not Me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: An I am Pia Lee. I am a human. You do like the word humans, don't you?

[00:00:17] Dan: Do. I do, I do. And I, I'm trying different 

[00:00:20] Pia: It's not where cats connect. It is human. It is 

[00:00:23] Dan: Yeah. Generally we might talk about cats and things occasionally, but, um, you know, but mostly, mostly about the, the human beings that, uh, we hope are listening to the show. Yeah. How are your arms, Pierre? How are they 

[00:00:34] Pia: Oh gosh, woof. Bulging, bulging pecs actually is sort of like, I'm looking. Yeah. Feeling quite toned. So we are all doing the, um, the pushup challenge. I mean, that's on a previous episode we talked to Nick Hudson and an amazing opportunity, like he's, he's, you know, moved into another year, uh, more people. more sophisticated tech behind it and everybody doing this in all sorts of places. Great. Really great. So yeah, 3,144, which is for each person that lost their life by suicide in Australia in 2021. I find it sobering when I'm 

[00:01:16] Dan: it's it's really sobering, isn't it? Why? You know, it is. That's a lot in a, a, not a hugely populous country to think of that much pain. And it's a bit of a pandemic, isn't it? 

[00:01:28] Pia: Because they do one every day and they do different stats. And there was something about, I think, I think it was 163, was the, you know, the daily expectation. And, and the, the reason that number was because that's the, the number of call outs in terms of support that go out to people every day in Australia from Lifeline, who are thinking of committing suicide? 163. We've only got 25 million in the country. I mean, it's not that many people, and that's a lot. Every day. 163. That was quite striking for me. 

[00:02:04] Dan: It is striking and to think, as I say, to think about that much pain of the people that, uh, walk among us to, to think they get to the point where they consider taking their own lives. It's, um, it's terrible. I, and um, there was a stat as well about um, which is very much an our We Not Me department, which was around what we, and actually a practical thing people can do is that strong workplace relationships improve mental wellbeing. So I think it reminds us that the teams that we work in, even in corporates and wherever, you know, you sort of in the heart of these, these big enterprises, they have a role to play in mental health and therefore helping people not to get to this point.

[00:02:48] Dan: So it's, it's not, it's, it's funny, isn't it? So sometimes you sort of think it's all about hitting numbers or whatever. No, these little squads, these little teams have a, a real role to play in how we feel connected to others and therefore how our mental health is ultimately with, with some potentially really positive outcomes. So it's not, um, it's not just for just for numbers or for laughs. It's a serious matter to bring that, bring those people to together and build the strong relationships. It's, it's heartening. 

[00:03:17] Pia: and that's probably a good little link into today's episode. 

[00:03:22] Dan: Beautifully done, Pierre. Beautifully done. Yeah,

[00:03:26] Pia: Smooth as silk.

[00:03:27] Dan: So today we're talking to Tom McLaughlin, who is an entrepreneur, business owner as well here. And I was really looking forward to this conversation and it didn't disappoint. Because through the years you see, as people move out away from hierarchies and sort of autocracy moving, what do we do instead? You know, we try all kinds of things, make the matrix. And one of those things is this sort of self-managed teams holacracy, you hear, and I'd spent a lot of time following Tony Shea of, of Zappos, um, in the States following what he said. Poor guy. He, he died in a house fire, I believe as a, um, a few years ago. But, uh, he was a big believer in this and did a lot around the culture, but I've always had this sort of thought of, wow, that, that's gotta present some challenges as well. You know, it's, the theory's great, but there's always something in there. So it was great to meet Tom, who is really working to, um, put this into place in his own company. So, let's go over there now and hear an actual, not just a theory, but the practice of trying to achieve this, uh, this elusive goal.

[00:04:34] Pia: And a really warm welcome to Tom McLaughlin. Lovely to see you on this sunny day.

[00:04:43] Tom: Nice to be here. Thanks for having me.

[00:04:44] Pia: Oh, it's absolute pleasure. So, um, that word traditional is to hand you over to the smiling executioner who's going to ask you a, a tricky question. So I'm gonna hand you over to Dan, and then we're gonna get into your story.

[00:05:00] Dan: these cards as we go. Let's see what we've got here. what everyone said I would be when I grew up is

[00:05:07] Tom: Yeah. Interesting. I don't think there's a very specific thing. I think my parents were quite good at not shuffling us down any particular route. My, like my mum and dad are both nurses, so you could, there could be an interpretation that we'd go down the medical route, but that was never really on the table for us. Uh, my brother went quite corporate and graduate scheme, so I think that for a while was, Maybe on the cards. And I wanted to be a sports journalist. I think sport was always something I really loved when I was growing up. So something sports orientated and then I got into the writing a bit and yeah, so maybe, maybe I put the sports journalist on there. 

[00:05:44] Dan: Nice. And you are quite into your sport now, I think, aren't you?

[00:05:47] Tom: I am, yeah, yeah. I play, I play a bit of football. I like my Formula one, you know, I'm not very good at other things, but I've, uh, yeah, play a bit of tennis, started getting into a bit of climbing. Given we're in, ill clean. There's a bit of that to be done. So yeah, anything that keeps me busy,

[00:06:02] Pia: Fantastic. So Tom, tell us a bit about yourself. Give, give us a bit of the backstory of who you are and, um, and who you are today.

[00:06:10] Tom: Yeah. So, um, I mean, everyone starts this one with work, don't they? It's funny that you sort of interpret work being your who you are when, uh, when people ask that question. But I guess on that front, I'm the, yeah, I'm the founder of SEO Travel. Uh, we're a marketing agency for travel SMEs. We give a hundred percent of the profit that we make to educational charities, uh, and we work in a kind of self-managed way that we adopted a couple of years ago. Uh, mainly down to my own tendencies to. Try to be too involved and not get my claws out of the work as the team grew, uh, which I'm sure we can get into in some, in some shape or form. so that's kind of the work side of things. 

[00:06:52] Tom: And as I said, I kind of enjoyed writing when I was younger. and I did English at university. Wanted to go maybe down the journalism route and then realized that I had to be a tea boy in a tea room to go down that route. And that just didn't seem like to make sense after done a degree. Well, I mean, I don't, Hey, listen, every Yorkshireman likes tea, but I don't like making it for other people. Um, 

[00:07:11] Pia: Fair

[00:07:12] Tom: We, yeah, so I, I ended up working in PR and then, um, tried to pursue the writing Dream. Got into SEO kind of by proxy because all the writing jobs I was going for were asking for SEO background. And then had my own travel website That was meant to be a portfolio for writing. And then that kind of became a bit of a testing ground for what I was learning in the SEO world. And that all merged into this idea that, hey, I could maybe do something specific for travel companies that would be better than the standard SEO agency was offering to all people in all sectors. 

[00:07:45] Tom: Uh, outside of work, a father of three, an all round entertainer of those three all times it seems, um, and play a bit of drums in my spare time, which me and Dan were talking about a little bit. Um, and like I say, yeah, I'm into my, I'm into my sport as well, so that usually is enough to keep me busy.

[00:08:02] Dan: Definitely, definitely. Excellent. Hey, uh, so Tom, rewind us a little bit. Could you, what you, you mentioned a couple of things there in your corporate life around giving that jumped out. You give all your profits a charity and this sort of distributed leadership idea, I think called self-managed teams or something. Can you where, just rewind the clock a little bit. What, where did they come from? How did that all emerge?

[00:08:27] Tom: So both kind of feedback to Covid, which is probably a, you know, a similar story to a lot of people. But, um, yeah, we'd, we'd been running the agency for about 10 years when Covid came round. We were maybe eight people at that point. And naturally specializing in the travel sector was not a great place to be when, when Covid happened and the, yeah, like six months that followed, you know, kind of March, 2020. Covid Covid basically rolled out on my birthday as well, which was a bit of an extra blow. Um, so, uh, yeah, really in considerate, yeah. Um, so basically like the couple of months that followed that, we had every, basically every day I was getting emails from clients saying, oh, we're gonna have to pause. We're gonna have to pause. And it, we, we lost probably 80% of the client base over the course of a month, six weeks. We offered very flexible terms, and we still do with people 30 day terms that, um, always, always made sense to me, but in that moment it felt a bit, a bit tricky.

[00:09:24] Tom: And then, uh, yeah, I, I basically spent six months just with my head down, sat in a dark office all day, every day, coming out to take the kids to bed and read the Maori and stuff, and then back to it to try and keep things afloat and, uh, yeah, spanning off into different industries, doing all sorts of things and got to about the six month mark and it felt like, okay, we're all right now we're gonna survive. It's, it's, we've kind of got through the worst of it. Uh, but it, I came up fair air a little bit and just thought, I don't know why I'm doing it. I d I kind of, uh, I, I decided to start this, this agency more just as a freelancer cuz I got a bit sick of work and I thought I could do a better job. So there was no big kind of plan and strategy for how to grow an agency and what we would become. And probably 10 years in, this was the first time that I'd actually stopped and thought that.

[00:10:13] Tom: Uh, and it actually happened. I went for a run up on, as you'll, as you'll know. Well, Dan and uh, yeah, came back to ,yeah, my mind was worrying. And then when I came back to the house, uh, Claire, who's the co-owner of the business and also my wife, uh, yeah, kind of came back through the door and said, Hey, I've got this idea. Maybe we should give all the profit that we make to, to charities. And she obviously looked at me like I'd gone completely mad and, uh, yeah. I tried to unfold this idea that I thought it could work for everyone in the circle that, um, doing that would give us a great marketing message to get our name out there to, to more people. Uh, it would be great for the brand. Uh, it would help us convert more clients who were like-minded and actually like us and have the same goals and, and ethos and values and things. And then we'd get more clients so we'd be able to grow the team, and be able to bring better people into the team who again, were like-minded and shaped the same kind of values. So that would work. And then because we grew a better team, we would get better results for clients and be able to do, you know, better things for, for clients and evolve what we offered and, and, and, and make that better. And then because clients would getting better results, more people would come in and then we'd have more money to give to charities and, you know, round we go again, Hey, this all seems to make perfect sense.

[00:11:27] Tom: So in my head that was, that was what I was to her. And you know, she, um, you know, to her credit, she went along with my Mad Hat plan and um, you know, we're two years, we're two years in from that now. The team's more than doubled in size. We're hitting record revenues. We've given more than 75,000 pounds away to two educational charities. One that's in here in Yorkshire, just mainly focused in Leeds, that that buys beds for children who don't have beds. Uh, they're called Zac. They're an amazing charity. And then we give the other part of it to a, uh, charity called Moving Mountains, which is actually a client that we work with who have set up as a social enterprise that kind of feeds their money and, and earnings into the locations on the ground that they serve, where they, they do adventure travel to places like Kenya, Tanzania, Nepal, and so they're not only are they taking people on trips to those places and bringing, you know, the money into the country that way, but the actual money that they make then feeds into the on the ground operations that are all run by people in those communities. So, um, yeah, that, that goes to building schools in remote places, paying for street kids to go through education to kind of level up and make generational change.

[00:12:39] Tom: So, um, so far it seems to be doing the thing that I hoped it would, it would do. It's still a long journey ahead and there's, you know, lots of, plenty of bumps along the way to navigate. But, um, it's been a, a fun thing to do.

[00:12:51] Dan: that sounds amazing. I mean, your, it sounds like your circle is definitely working, um, really nicely. It's, it's, it's inspirational. What about the way you organize the, the business though as well, because that, that sounds like you, you, that was the other thing you mentioned, it's a, it's a bit of a shift for you.

[00:13:08] Tom: Yeah, absolutely. So again, this was kind of covid induced I'd realized, which I think is probably a common thing for founders who start as freelancers, just doing things themselves and then decide to grow, is that they are the people doing the work. And that was very much me. I was the person doing work for clients, the everything was down to me and I was, I was working out and delivering it. And then you start building a team. And this idea and skillset of delegating things and systemizing things is, is all a bit foreign.

[00:13:38] Tom: And um, you know, we got to that point before Covid, I think I realized that I needed to let go a little bit more and it wasn't a natural thing that came to me. I've, you know, done some work with coaches and things to identify that a, a lot of my self perception is around being a grafter and, and this kind of thing that I've grown up with and trying to let that go a little bit, that I don't have to be seen to be actively doing things all the time to be valued was a hurdle for me to get over. And then it obviously played into these other things downstream.

[00:14:06] Tom: So I, I tried quite hard for a couple of years up to the run of, up to Covid to be better at that, but quite informally and just quite sort of randomly really just more, more just me doing it, being accountable to myself. Then Covid happened and the claws just went back in in full strength. And it was similar time to that realization with the kind of the, the, the charity and a hundred percent idea that I felt like I needed something else to really, again, like systemize me, pulling me away from things. And serendipitously when we announced the a hundred percent initiative, someone from a travel company got in touch with me and said, Hey, this sounds amazing. I'd love, we're doing some things in our business that might be of interest, like maybe we could have a chat. Um, his name's Nick Pulley from Selective Asia, a really interesting guy and, and great business. And I went to speak to him and talked to him about the a hundred percent stuff. And then he told me about this self-management thing that they were doing. And he was like, I was just listening to Mike. Oh, Nick, this is, this is gold. This is what I need. You've solved my, my problems.

[00:15:12] Tom: So he was working with a consultant who had helped them along the journey, um, called John Barnes, not the England footballer and amateur rapper. Yeah, um, who's, who's rap I listened to and delivered to my six year old son this morning, incidentally. Um, it was, uh, yeah, a different, a different John vs. Um, who's, Yeah, like an organizational coach and specializes in, in self management and that side of things. Um, and yeah, John had some free resources that I went and watched and looked and listened, looked at and listened to, and, but you know, I kind of got about three episodes into his audio course that he has and thought, yeah, I'm sold here. This is what I need and I, I need someone to come and help support me in, in delivering it. So he came on board, uh, similar kind of time about two years ago and yeah, essentially get started giving us some structure and some, uh, practical things that we could do to roll that out into the team that were related to, both to me, but then, like I say, structural stuff that, um, that would help with that as well.

[00:16:10] Pia: So I guess, Mike, the first question I'm, I would imagine listeners are w are wondering the same thing when you say self-managed, what is it and, and, and how is it dif different to more traditional teams?

[00:16:23] Tom: It's a very good question, and I probably should be better at answering this in a succinct way, but it's still something I struggle, I struggle with, and we struggle with as a, as a team as well. I think the key is that you are trying to remove the hierarchy and the power out of the organization. So instead of having managers, Who say to people, you know, juniors in the team, here's your work for the day or the week, go and do it and then give it back to me and I'll judge if it's good enough and then take the next step and kind of move it up the chain, essentially you flatten things and you make everyone in the, uh, in the organization aware of what their individual responsibilities and roles are, and you try to establish what is expected in terms of delivery and, you know, the level of work that you are doing and, and all the, the goals and things around that. And then essentially you say this, this is yours to deliver now. And. It's, I'm gonna come and ask you for it. You know, if, if something goes wrong, I'm gonna come and ask you why. And it's, it's up to you to kind of make sure that those things are getting done to a, to a good level, but equally that you have the freedom to explore and do things differently if you think that's better, you know your role best and what you deliver best, you're the person doing it. So, you know, someone three rungs up in management hierarchy shouldn't be the one dictating how you do your job. Like you on the ground know. How to deliver it best. So if you see something that seems a bit strange, change it, try it, test it, do a little, uh, slightly different way of doing it and see how that rolls out. And if it works, uh, then great. Make it a standard and kind of roll that into the rest of the team and share it. And, and, and we can all learn from that. And if it doesn't, That's fine. Don't worry. Revert back to, to what you were doing before. So I think that lack of power and that individual responsibility are the probably the two key elements of it, that separate

[00:18:14] Tom: things. 

[00:18:15] Dan: how's it going?

[00:18:16] Tom: Good question. Good question. On the listen, in, in a kind of stepped away, uh, zoomed out version, I would say in incredibly well, um, I certainly wouldn't look back and don't regret doing any of the things and making any of the changes that we've made.

[00:18:35] Tom: The more kind of zoomed in version of that is it's very difficult. Like you are constantly battling against traditional assumptions and societal norms and, uh, what people expect in the workplace that make it hard for people to understand the concept itself, and then again, what is expected, expected of them, and how to react in, in certain ways. So, you know, two years in, we're still addressing these questions. We're still trying to work out ways that can, um, can make the team work, work better and make the work the things we deliver better. But it, um, as a, as a, as a whole, we've made leaps and bounds forward. And, and you know, certainly from a personal level, for me, we are, you know, I, I'm a completely different person to who I was two years ago and, and how I deal with people and how I, how I think about things, and that's, to me is a massively beneficial thing for the organization as a whole.

[00:19:33] Pia: So what does that look like on a day-to-day basis? 

[00:19:36] Tom: Yeah, so I guess we, you know, we're, we're a marketing agency, um, predominantly we deliver seo, PR is quite a big part of what we do, and then we have other things that we add on, like email marketing and a bit of web design and dev and, and some things like that. So it's, it really is quite systemized in terms of what we do. We have people who. A kind of technical SEO specialists, and they're delivering work for clients. Uh, we have people who are content writers and they're writing content for clients, people who do do PR and write press releases and all those kind of things.

[00:20:06] Tom: So I guess when you look at things like that, it's not massively different. It, you know, those people are with, they know who their clients are, they know what the work is that they have to deliver in a calendar month. And they get on and do that work. We still have people who are kind of key client contacts who deliver the reports and send those things over. But we do try to make it so that the people who are doing the work actually are the people speaking to clients as well. So, you know, if, uh, someone who's writing press releases, they're the people who speak to the client and talk about it, they don't go to an account manager that then speaks to them and, and, you know, you end up going around the houses that way. 

[00:20:39] Tom: But I, I don't think, like, like I say, on the face of it, it doesn't sound radically different in any way. It's more, I think, under the surface of the feeling of how they do those things. So the person who's writing the content is going and writing that content, but the thing under the surface is that if they see a way of doing something different and better, they are empowered to bring that to the table and do it and, you know, do it differently. 

[00:21:03] Tom: So the, uh, the role level fairly similar. Probably some of the changes that we've made that have. Enabled this shift, one of them is like complete transparency. So we moved to Slack and completely away from internal emails, um, so basically everything that we talk about is out in the open and, uh, people can see both at a client level, what's happening all the time. Uh, people can see an organizational level, what we're talking about and what we're doing so that, you know, you don't need to be sat in some management meeting to be privy to big decisions and you know, there's some people sat on Golden Thrones that make all the, all the big calls. That's all there for everyone to see and give input as well.

[00:21:45] Tom: Um, we have a, a monthly meeting that essentially the whole business comes to that anyone can bring any thought to the table as to how we improve the business and move it forward. So that can be tiny minutia of like how a system changes slightly, how we request holiday or something like that. Or it can be big things that have changed like parental leave policies or suggesting that people can go on a workation and work from anywhere in the world for a month, uh, of a month of the year, which got brought in and someone brought to the table. So there's this kind of open dialogue and in terms of what's going on in general. And then there's platforms and, uh, spaces for people to bring big suggestions at an organizational level as well, regardless of if they're have 10 years experience and have been in the business for 10 years, or if they joined three weeks ago and it's their first job.

[00:22:35] Dan: And how have people reacted to that vast change in the information they're receiving and the freedom to it, to have input. How, how does, yeah, how, how have people, how's that gone?

[00:22:46] Tom: Differently, I think is, yeah, depending on the individual. Um, some people embrace it, you know, there you can see. It's just something that they thrive on. And then I think there's other people who. Actually they want the specifics and they want to know what should I be doing? And this idea of I could do anything in a certain way, and I'm not sure what the expectation is, is, is quite, uh, quite uncomfortable, I think. And this is not a criticism of anyone in either of those camps. You know, we do things when people join. We do things like disc assessments to try and understand people's behaviors and, and how they, you know, how they like to behave and, and interact. And some people you can see they don't like change and they like stability. So this idea of, oh, every day something might change and be different, and yeah, who knows what's going on is, is, I think is an, is an unsettling thing. 

[00:23:36] Tom: On the most part, I would say listen, everyone's embraced it, like they've been fantastic and really looked to try and take it on board and do it for the best of the business. Everyone's be kind of behind what we're doing and, and how we do it. But like I said earlier, there's, you know, there's road road bumps along the way and, uh, it's when you get into specific things, I think we've started to hit on certain things that. Suddenly are much less apparent in this kind of environment.

[00:24:00] Tom: Progression at an individual level is one of those things, which suddenly becomes very hard because if hierarchy's not there, and you know, the more extreme version of this kind of thing is that people get rid of job, job titles and, and things like that. And so it's like, oh, well if I'm not getting a promotion to a new job title and I'm not suddenly in charge of more people or something like that, then how am I progressing? How, how does that work? And this is a thing we've been working on for a long time and, and has been a, has been a chief frustration when we've spoken to the team and asked for feedback on, on how things are going. That's kind of a reoccurring thing that comes round that, um, you know, is totally understandable that that's, that's hard to get your head around cuz it's just not really how other people do it.

[00:24:40] Tom: So, um, lots of moments like that, that we're still, like I say, we're still finding our way and I think, we'll, we'll always be finding our way, I think. That's the things that we try to come to terms with is, is that this will be a voyage of discovery forever and that's okay. Like if we're all okay with that, like we're looking to do things better, we're looking to do things in a kind of bespoke way for us and the people within the team. And it might be harder and there's more decisions to be made, and yeah, it's a bit more uncertainty at times, but the thing that we get at the end of it will end up being better for, for everyone both, you know, both as a team and, and at their individual level.

[00:25:19] Pia: Have you actually lost anyone in the organization? I mean, not, I don't mean you can't find them, but I mean, have they actually left as a result of the, the, you know, they're, well, maybe they're ambitious and, and they have, they have hit a bit of a glass ceiling or a flat structure and, and, and it's not worked?

[00:25:37] Tom: So, so far, I wouldn't say we've lost anyone for, for that particular reason where people have felt like, oh, I, I, I can't progress. I think a couple of people have, have left that, that uncertainty maybe was, was a part of it. Like the, they preferred a standard model and it just didn't quite fit. And, and, and people who were here before and then after. So there's some people who are joining now who that's just how we work, so they don't know the before, whereas some people who were there for quite a long period before and then we made this switch, I think, the kind of friction of that was maybe, was maybe a bit too much.

[00:26:13] Tom: I think on the progression thing, like, uh, and this, again, this is part of the conversation with the, the team that we've, we've really delved into is trying to really delve into what progression is. Like. It's. There is no glass ceiling. Basically for us, there is no glass ceiling. Whereas in a traditional order organization and hierarchy, you are limited to the people above you leaving or being promoted themselves or like creating a space to move into. It's a, to kind of go up to the next rung on the ladder. Whereas for us, there isn't anything like that. We talk about in terms of what does progression mean? It means improving your skillset, uh, both technical and also, or vocational is, is a way, uh, I think Seth Godin puts it. Um, and then also more like human skills that we work on a lot like facilitation and problem solving, communicating. So if you can we, you know, we try to measure like all those different things. And if you can see that you are improving on that front, that is progression. And as you get better in the skillset, you will then be rewarded more from a financial perspective. And so that you get progression from a financial point of view as well.

[00:27:13] Tom: There's also so many opportunities from a leadership perspective that you can and responsibility perspective, that this type of approach and structure allows that, again, traditional organizations, it wouldn't allow it to you because you'd have to get to this management role, three rungs higher or director role to make decisions or these kind of things. Whereas if you are, again, like a, a perceived junior who's just come into the team and, and not been there for long. We've got all these projects happening that you can dive into and be a facilitator in that project that brings responsible with it. Or you can bring an idea of a new project or approach to the table that you can be the team captain of that thing and, and really take that on and drive it forward. And that's not based on experience, time in the business, you know, things you've done before. It's based on your volition and skillset and motivation to just push forward and make something happen. So actually progression wise, I think that the, the ceiling is sort of infinite with us, but twitching your mindset to believe that and understand it is hard.

[00:28:16] Dan: And that's clearly a, you mentioned earlier you hit su sort of pushback based on it's or challenges, uh, based on societal norms. Progression is clearly one. What, what else, what else have you come across that people have expectations over that? This apparently, you? Know, amazing freedom, all the theory says give people autonomy and this is an amazing thing. What else have you hit that's caused you a few issues?

[00:28:42] Tom: I think belief in the autonomy is one which relates back to me. So, um, basically me sticking my oar in too much. I think, uh, you know, I, I've always, you know, they know me as that, or a lot of people know me as that character. And, you know, at the end of the day, that's pretty intrinsic to me. So, as much as I do my best to play down certain behaviors and, and act in other ways, that is like a natural state for me.

[00:29:08] Tom: So I, I sometimes I will go in and will potentially be a bit too overbearing and, and too direct and, you know, kind of take control too much that I think, you know, that can add up and people can say, well, ah, you're talking the talk here, but is this, is this actually what you are, what you're saying is? so, you know, I've still got lots to work on to get better at that side of things.

[00:29:29] Tom: And I was just listening to the psychological safety, um, episode that you had with Dr. Jess. I can't remember a surname, but it was fascinating. Yeah, yeah, she was great. And, psychological safety is so important to this whole thing. Like, people need to be able to speak up, feel happy, making mistakes, trying things, um, and if they don't feel like that, then yeah, that's, that, that loses a lot of it. And, uh, I think that side of me can conflict with that.

[00:29:55] Tom: We had, we had a moment kind of in the, at the last, back end of last year, I did a, um, a course at 10,000 Small Businesses that Goldman Sachs runs. And it was, it was a fantastic course for three months. Total opposite of like what we're about. It was very corporate and you know, but but really fascinating and I learned a lot. But I think one mistake I made there was I didn't communicate well enough what I was doing there. And so people from the outside were seeing like, Tom's gone on this Goldman Sachs course and uh, what's he up to? Like, oh, I were a cool 

[00:30:21] Pia: junket. 

[00:30:22] Tom: Yeah. Yeah. It's like what? Like where's, where's this guy who supposedly is out to like, give his profit away and like build a team, an autonomous team and all this kind of thing, and now he is, now he's off with the bankers, like talking about money. Um, So I didn't communicate well enough what I was doing there and why I was doing it. And that led to a real buildup of challenge in the team of them, uh, which, yeah, listen, it was hard. We had a bit of a summit in December with it that, um, it came, it came home to roost a little bit, and you know, that's taken some time, I think to rebuild some of the bridges that we, that we had there. And listen, I, I, I could go back to that and do a lot of things differently, but I think it's just a learning experience and, you know, I, I kind of know next time and that I need to be more open with that kind of stuff to, yeah, to make sure people understand the reasons behind what I'm doing.

[00:31:09] Pia: And, and we can assume clarity, but you know, often that that doesn't happen. Tom, tell me about the running of the business. So is that self-managed, like the strategic el element of it? Because who hires, who fires, who has ultimate responsibility there?

[00:31:25] Dan: And the direction setting as well. I'm really fascinated by this.

[00:31:28] Tom: Yeah, the, um, it's a very pertinent question cuz it's, that's a recent thing and another misstep that I, that, that I made. um, we, but previous for a long time that I just sat with me, and this was something interesting that rolled out of that Goldman Sachs course where there was a big thing that they were saying was like, you need a senior leadership team, go and go and get a senior leadership team. And so I came back and I said, Hey everyone, we're gonna get a senior leadership team. And then soon as I was saying it, I was like, oh, I don't think this language sort of really aligns with who we are and, and what we're about and autonomy and lack of hierarchy and all these different things that we talk about. So I kind of bundled in all excited about that and realized that, uh, it was the wrong way to do it. And then I spent a lot of time after that going into like, actually what does that look like? Because like you say, organizational level decisions, whether it's direction, strategy, systems, growth people, whatever those things are, um, still, still very much sat with me and I was, I kind of had to, I, I needed to distribute some of that.

[00:32:27] Tom: So what we've done is create what we call a team council, where we've identified some of those key things that sit with me, which are, uh, people being one, growth being another and kind of systems and processes being a, being a third that were kind of the primary ones that we've started with. And then we've basically made people stewards of those roles. So we've broken down what's involved in those roles, what, like quite specific things that need to be done within those roles. And then there are now people in the team who have taken on being the steward of that role and it's their job to deliver on those things, and it's their responsibility to deliver. We talk about responsibility a lot and that passing of responsibility. Some people were doing a lot of that stuff already, they've just kind of taken it on themselves, which you know is by, by proxy of how we work. Like they were great. They took that and grabbed it with both hands. But this move kind of passed the responsibility and said, right, you are actually accountable for this, for this thing.

[00:33:24] Tom: So now there's people who are handling those things. I'm still very much there talking to them about it. We have a, a tea, like a forum every month where those people come to the table and we have updates on what's going on. Me and Claire give our input on, on that, and we kind of use it as an idea to, as a, as a way of rolling out ideas, um, and giving feedback and advice. But then those people kind of, uh, in charge of going and doing it.

[00:33:46] Tom: And the idea is that they are going away and interacting with the team. So there's still input coming from, everyone has the opportunity to give input. Uh, so it's still. Transparent, the team are still giving input, but that person is then taking on the responsibility for making yeah, kind of making decisions and, and changes. So that's quite fresh, but so far it's, you know, there's some great things that have happened already that, um, I was a bottleneck for basically. And it's, and it's enabled those things to happen faster.

[00:34:15] Dan: These are massive changes for you that you, you initiated. How, how are, how are you doing in all of this? It's, it's?

[00:34:23] Pia: Get the couch out,

[00:34:24] Dan: Yeah, just like make 

[00:34:26] Tom: Lie back. Yeah, lie back. Let's see. Let's have a chat. I'm, yeah, I'm good. It's, it's, um, I think I can, I can see it enrolling. So as much as there are difficult moments along, along the way, and listen frustrations, uh, I'll be very, you know, open about that, I understand why there are challenges and why people don't get it, and you know, why certain things have happened at, uh, you know, I'm, I'm quite sort of reflective and, uh, try to be very self-aware and I can see that like, oh, I see how that's rolled out now that I, I, I can, I need to work on that and do that a different way. And some, you know, that can be tiring being that way, you know, quite a lot of the time. And it does, it does take its toll. But I can see the bigger picture of. Where it's going.

[00:35:11] Tom: And if I compare it to two years ago where I was just, you know, hassling people about a line in a spreadsheet or something like that, it's just so different now. And I do get more time to talk about strategic things, um, and spend time on more of the things that I, that I want to spend time on.

[00:35:27] Tom: You mentioned about the direction of the business before, Pia, as well, and that's, yeah. Listen, still a lot of, a lot of those things do still sit with me, but I. I, you know, I, I talk to the team about it and, uh, you know, it's like with this idea of crowdsourcing of, I'll go out and I'll get the information and I'll share my ideas and I'll get the feedback, and then if there's major objections to it, I'll really dig into like, what, what are those objections and why are they objections? And then if I think it's a good thing to go forward with, it's, it's not a democracy.

[00:35:58] Tom: I think that's a key part of this. And it's come up in one of the, we use a tool called Office Vibe that, um, is good for just getting feedback from the, from the team. And someone very recently said, oh, there's this idea that everyone kind of has the same level of input, uh, but Tom still makes the decisions. And uh, that's something I'm gonna kind of respond to and make the point that it's like, well, yeah, everyone has input, but everyone does not have the same level of, of kind of influence and decision making. Like the person who walked through the door three days ago is not gonna make a business level decision that impacts the whole company in the same way that I might because they don't have the experience to, to make that call. But what they do do is have a valuable opinion.

[00:36:40] Tom: So their opinion will be heard and everyone else's opinion will be heard. But there still needs to be. Kind of the ability to make decisions on behalf of the organization. Cuz if if, if you were constantly trying to make decisions that everyone was happy with, that everyone signed off every step of the way, you wouldn't go anywhere and nothing would happen and people would hate it, and.

[00:37:01] Pia: No, I was gonna ask you that. I was gonna ask, you know, do you find sometimes that you are pushed to work at a faster pace and you've gotta kind of remind yourself to be inclusive in that? Because I mean, it's, it, it, they're two different styles, aren't they?

[00:37:19] Tom: Very, very different styles. And my, going back to the DISC profile thing, my profile is very high D like dominant, get things done, go, go, go. Like, oh, I'll get a nugget of information. And then it's like, bang, away we go. Yeah. Make it happen. Um, and so yeah, I have to, I have to stop myself quite a lot and come back and say, Right, hang on. This is an important thing. I, I'll take this to the team.

[00:37:42] Tom: Th, this was something, uh, one of the changes that we made when we first rolled out the whole concept to the team was, I think we did it in, you know, basically years, two years ago. We did it in June, two years ago, and one of the first things that we did was me, John, the coach, said to me, how would you feel about taking August off, and just disappearing from the business, and then we'll find out how much you are needed here? The whole, it was like, let's do an experiment and you think you are needed. You think these guys can't kind of get on without you. Should we do an experiment and to see if that's true? How'd you feel about that?

[00:38:13] Pia: did you fire him?

[00:38:14] Tom: Well, he was basically asking me if I wanted to go on a month long holiday, so I was like, hell yeah. Let's do this, John. Away we go. Yeah. Um. I can get on board with this John. Um, so, but, but that was a thing that I could have gone and said, Hey everyone, I'm going away for August. Good luck. Like, hope it all goes okay, let me know when I get back. But I went and I pitched it as an idea in our monthly crowdsource meeting and said, Hey, I, I would like to do this. Here's why I would like to do this. Is everyone happy with that? If not, gimme some advice, gimme some feedback, and thankfully everyone said yes. See you later, mate. We'll be quite happy if disappear for a month. Um, and, and we'll see what happens. And then I came it.

[00:38:54] Tom: Yeah, I came back after it. It was amazing. It, the experiment worked, it made it clear. The team did a fantastic job. A few things popped up that we were like, oh, here's some things that Tom's still on the hook for, so we need to systemize a few other things that we can work out there. But that's been something that I then did again last year. I'm gonna do it again this year, and it's quite a nice, like, okay, let's see where the single point of failure is still, and we can, that'll give us some runway for other things to work on from, you know, from, from the back of that.

[00:39:23] Dan: So Tom, good old final departure question. If someone was in your position three years ago, and they felt that they were sucking up too much responsibility, they had the founders curse, they're still doing everything, or even if they're in a big, bigger business and, and everything's coming through them, how, what would you say to them? How would you encourage them? How would you advise them, I guess, to start?

[00:39:48] Tom: Yeah, I think so. My first thing would just be tru, trust in people. Like, uh, yeah, I think that was a hurdle I needed to get over and think it's not all about me and other people are better than me at most things. Uh, so that as a first kind of mindset shift, um, was very important.

[00:40:05] Tom: Yeah, secondly, as you can probably tell, I'm a big fan of the, like, self-managed way of doing things despite it being very contrary to my natural kind of, uh, inclinations. And so I would say to people, if you are, if you do feel that way, this is actually a really great release mechanism to keep you accountable of doing things in a, in a better way. And as a, as a very practical thing there, I would say look up John's course cuz the is ISS got this great audio course that, um, that breaks down the reasons behind it and how it can work. Um, so I would, yeah, that would be a great place to look.

[00:40:41] Tom: And then the final thing I think is, which we haven't really touched on here, but is around kind of purpose. Like the a hundred percent change I think is really important here. Um, which if we didn't have a purpose and a thing that we were here for, to everyone get behind, uh, I think the self-managed thing maybe would not be quite as effective. I think if you are just trying to do it to fill a founder's pockets, then I, I don't know if that, I think they sync together. They're sort of, uh, yeah, kind of working in parallel kind of to, to make one effective in the other and the other work. So, and, and, and the sinking that a hundred percent thing in, more and more. I think that we've set ourselves a target over 10 years, so eight more years to go of, of hitting a million pound that we, that we give away. And over the time that that unravels, I probably think I'll be getting on my soapbox a little bit more about why more people should kind of really integrate this giving model into their business. Because I think we're too preoccupied with profit and putting money in our pocket to, you know, tomorrow and grabbing every pound that's available rather than stepping away and thinking about the big picture.

[00:41:54] Tom: And I believe now I'll, you know, a person, it's not just about being a martyr either. It's like, I think I'm gonna make more money in my life because of doing it this way. Like it's, it's, I'm not sacrificing the financial side of it, but I'm, it's enabling us to grow a thing that's bigger than, than it would, would ever be able to get to. So yeah, kind of thinking about that. And there's some great, there's a great book that, uh, that I read that kind of is a super easy read and, and uh, kind of parable around it and, um, that really brought, it, brought it home to me. Um, and I think people will be surprised when they start to delve into that side of it.

[00:42:27] Dan: Yeah, it's a very clever switch that I think from the traditional go to the money men and women and, um, from get money in from them and then make them richer. Instead, you said actually, if we're more purpose aligned, we can drive our actual revenue business and then send that same money, um, back out to, to, um, des let's say more deserving causes. It's a very clever flip, I think. And um, so I think this is, could learn a lot from that.

[00:42:55] Tom: As a, as a final thought on that as well. Like the, you know, I talked about the virtuous circle and that that financial thing plays into the, the team as well. Uh, cuz again, it might sound a bit like, uh, you know, yeah, the team are just there for, kind of get behind the mission and things like that. But I also, it's something I've talked to the team about of, regardless of all these progression things, I think they'll make more money in this organization over the next five years than they would if they career ladder hopped kind of around because all the other things that we have going on, facilitate earning opportunities for them, uh, you know, not just salary, kind of other things that they can, that they can do. So, um, so yeah, it's kind of like I say all the people in that, um, in that virtual circle benefiting both financially as well as kind of enjoyment and, and the things that they're, that they're working on.

[00:43:41] Dan: Brilliant. Tom, thank you so much you, you, for sharing your learnings, but also the with great humility, um, you, the, the genuine learnings, you know, the, the, the warts and all. 

[00:43:51] Pia: It takes great courage to take this cuz it, cuz you really, you're taking a different move and it's much more abundant. And I think that's the, that's a very different way of looking at things. But also a little messy along the way is it's not cut and dried.

[00:44:06] Tom: Yeah, it's always messy that I think, yeah, the, that's one of, you know, again, another key learning is there's, it's gonna be messy. Like, and I think regardless, wherever you go, whatever you do, it's gonna be messy. And if you think whatever route you're gonna take is, is got some smooth sailing in there, then you, you're gonna end up a bit disappointed. So, uh, embrace the mess.

[00:44:23] Dan: Perfect. A great place and thank you for being on the show today, Tom. And um, yeah, we'll hope to, hope to see you along the way. Thank you so much.

[00:44:33] Tom: Thanks for having me. Cheers, Dan. Thanks Pia. 

[00:44:35] Pia: So interesting listening to Tom and really I think what struck me, one of the things was that actually he had a lot of authenticity and vulnerability and humility to be able to take feedback on, realize the system that he's creating is, is in flow, it's organic, and, and he may make mistakes and that he's prepared to do that.

[00:44:59] Pia: So, I I, I can see that there may be people are listening to this going, oh, I dunno whether I sounds great. But I dunno whether I would personally be able to manage that. Because I, you know, I think that sometimes when you are the leader and people know that you are more senior, there's a bit like a firewall around you. You know that, that respect thing, it's something we've grown up with and learned.

[00:45:23] Dan: And particularly if you present, uh, an a sort of, you know, a more old school V view, you know, you know, there are leaders who are, who cannot be, who aren't open to feedback, aren't open to listening. And, and actually they, they, yeah, they put a shell around them and it's, it's, it's rather enticing in a way, isn't it, to be immune from any of that. So I think the o the opposite is when you open yourself up to, to invite feedback, comments, thoughts, everything else that you are then scrutinized.

[00:45:54] Pia: And you can have a lot of input, which he seeks, and I can, I can really see that the value for his organization and for him. But there is an accountability piece that who's ultimately the last one who is accountable for the business, the last dollar, penny in the bank. You know, that's the, that's an interesting one. And the real tough decisions that, yeah. how to, how to manage downturn or behaviors that aren't right, or. You know, and again, I think the team can do that together, but you've gotta have a very trusting set of human beings to be able to do that.

[00:46:28] Dan: Definitely. I think I've seen this quite a bit where I, and I can see that Tom did say, you know, if you just come in the door, you're not gonna be able to make a strategic decision immediately. And I think two things spring to mind here. One is, to bring these tensions into the light to sort of say, right, actually, right, let's not just let these happen and let's pretend that everyone's got an equal say, let's really bring this in and sort of say, how are we gonna make this decision? I think the other thing I've seen people do, when they're trying to become, as he said, they're sort of trying to remove hierarchy and power.

[00:46:58] Dan: I think there's a difference between a role and hierarchical power. So you can have the role of, I'm the business leader. I'm the product owner. Now doesn't, it's not a senior thing, but you are ultimately, as you say, accountable for making decisions about the product. You're not senior, you're not lording it over people. You're taking input, but if decisions have to be made, it is on you and you own that, it's still, you know, everyone has an input. And I think it's a subtle thing maybe, but I think people somehow say, oh no, I'm not gonna give myself, uh, that role because it sort of seems to be associated with power, whereas actually is just a role and a responsibility and accountability to do things and make things happen. I think that is a difference that sometimes is missed.

[00:47:42] Pia: It really enables that accountability. It has to be shared, and it can't be something that is part-time for everybody in the team. It has to be, it has to be shared. Tom also talked about that sometimes that challenge around having a career stretch, a career opportunities in a, in a very flat organization. I think, no, he really explained that well, that it's, it's a question of seeing it differently. That it's not around necessarily, again, hierarchical expectations, but that you have a freedom to be able to explore and to challenge yourself and to reinvent yourself, according to what those, what may be available inside an organization. 

[00:48:19] Dan: Yeah. And it was an example where, fascinating, I think a lot of these moves like Tom's doing is he has a systemic view of how this is going to drive business performance, but it's also very much for the people in the organization itself. But we are all tied by, as he said, societal norms. I have an expectation that I'm still, that I'm going to be promoted. And I, and I, you know, go from one per, one level to another. There, I think, I'm sure there's a lot of that, that you are fighting that even though it's beneficial that we all have these certain expectations, which can be a break on, on progress towards, you know, a more, more even distribution of power in an organization.

[00:49:00] Dan: And part of that systemic thinking, I really loved the way he talked about that, this appealed to me as my, my engineering brain of that sort of virtuous circle of giving their profits to charity, driving the business forward, getting more talented and so on and getting more business. And, um, that, that was pretty radical move. I know, Pia, they say, um, Ilkley is the graveyard of ambition, ilkley Moor where people run is the, is a birthplace of many ideas. And he was running there and came up with this.

[00:49:27] Dan: But, but joking aside, That sort of big picture view, that ambition to do something totally different. You've got to give him full marks for that. What a what a what a great ambition to, to give a million pounds to, to these causes.

[00:49:41] Pia: Yep. great discussion and a really great experience talking to Tom. A lovely, humble man, but with a radically different way of seeing things, but actually not attaching too much to himself to make it perfect. It's work in progress.

[00:49:57] Dan: And I, I really love that about Tom and his conversa. He's not faking anything. He's gen, being authentic about these challenges. Even those personal challenges raised, probably if I was him and someone was saying, oh, when, how long are you going away for holiday? I would be, you know, being British, I would probably be quite miffed. I'd be miffed at the very least. Unchuffed, possibly. Um, but you know, he's open to sort of recognizing, yeah, those feelings, you know, whatever, you know, these, this is a challenge for him personally. And I think that level of self-awareness is, is unusual, but, uh, but inspiring. So I'm hoping our listeners have, um, got a lot outta that from Tom. What a great, uh, great thing he's trying to do.

[00:50:35] Dan: But that is it for this episode. You can find show notes and resources at Spotify dot Nhat. Just click on the We Not Me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. If you'd like to contribute to the show, just email us at wenotmepod@gmail.com. We Not Me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin. Thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye for me.

[00:50:56] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.