Books and Bites Podcast, Ep. 117: Books about Workers or the Workplace Carrie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Books and Bites podcast. Each month, we bring you book recommendations and discuss the bites and beverages to pair with them. I'm Carrie Green, and I'm here with my co-hosts, Michael Cunningham and Jacqueline Cooper. Michael: Hello. Jacqueline: Hi, everybody. Carrie: So we are in the final month of the Summer Books and Bites Bingo card. Can't believe the summer is almost over. Michael: Wow. Yeah. Carrie: How are you all doing with the card so far? Michael: Good. Jacqueline: Yeah, pretty good. Michael: Just got a couple left for me. I think, yeah, I think one or two left- Carrie: Mm-hmm ... Michael: then I'll be done. Carrie: Okay. Is one of them (Not So) Silent Book Club or read in the library for an hour? Michael: Yeah, that's one my... I think that is one of them. But that one should be done here, get that knocked off here pretty soon. Carrie: Yes. If you're still waiting on that one, Monday, September 14th at 6:30 is our (Not So) Silent Book Club. We hope you'll join us on that one. Do you all have... are there any [00:01:00] highlights from the card for you this time? Favorite prompt or favorite book? Jacqueline: My favorite one was, set on an island. It was a Natasha Preston mystery. I really enjoyed it. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Jacqueline: Reading that one. Carrie: Yeah, that one sounded good. Michael: I liked the sport prompt. Carrie: What did you read for that one? 'Cause I don't think we, we didn't talk about that one. Michael: No, Carrie: we didn't. Michael: No. I went with Don't Know Tough by Eli Cranor. It's about Arkansas high school football- Carrie: Okay ... Michael: with some little noir in there. One of the star running backs ends up killing his abusive dad- Carrie: Oh, wow ... Michael: and kinda goes on the run. And the coach, who's, like, from California, comes in and tries to, like, help him. It's pretty good. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: It was a debut novel four or five years ago. Carrie: Sounds like a lot of suspense in that one. Michael: There was, yeah. Yeah. And I listened to the audiobook, and the author read it. ... He's one of those rare author readers that does a really good job. Carrie: Oh, yeah, I know, you never [00:02:00] know what you're gonna get with an author reading. Michael: Yeah, it's hit and miss sometimes. [Laughter] Carrie: Well, that's good to know. Yeah, mine was the book with a number in the title, and I read Earth Seven by Deb Olin Un- Unworth, I think is her last name. And it was also a little bit out of the box for me 'cause it's kind of a post-apocalyptic sci-fi, but it was, it was just really good. Highly recommend that one. It was one of those books that, which I have been reading a lot of lately, that kind of shows you, okay, maybe the world is ending, but here is how we live through that and, you know, still have meaning and that kind of thing. It was also really funny and just, you know, if I'm dealing with the end of the world, it's gotta have some humor in there. Michael: Oh, yeah. You gotta [00:03:00] cut that a little bit. Carrie: Exactly. Yeah, so highly recommend that one. I am kinda sorry that we didn't get to talk about that one, but today we are talking about books about workers or the workplace, which we thought was fitting given that Labor Day is in September. And Jacqueline, I know you were a little bit worried about finding a book for teens about workers or the workplace. You did all right there? Jacqueline: Yeah, I think so. You know, the workplace is changing so much for teens. Like, work could also mean being a social media influencer or running a channel, on social media. So after I started thinking about that more, there's a lot of things that people do that as work that I might have not necessarily thought was work. Like- Carrie: Mm-hmm. Like babysitting or working at a fast food joint--was probably the options when we were that age. [Laughter] Jacqueline: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. There was no social media that's for sure. Michael: Everybody's got their YouTube channels and TikToks [00:04:00] and- Jacqueline: And they make money. I don't know how they make money, but Carrie: Yeah. Jacqueline: Might be a good retirement job. [Laughter] Carrie: Yeah. One option for this prompt, books about workers or the workplace, is Returns and Exchanges by Kayla Rae Whitaker, which is the book that we'll be talking about at our in-person book club, which is going to be on September 28th at 6:30 PM. And it's about a family who owns a chain of discount department stores in Lexington in the 1980s. So it's a great novel, and it's also great because of that local connection, I think. And Kayla was kind enough to chat with me about her book for today's episode. She also gave some book recommendations at the end of our chat that would qualify for both the books about workers or the workplace or the [00:05:00] sports books prompts. So you'll get even more book recommendations from her. So stay tuned for our chat and for some recommendations from Michael and Jacqueline. Carrie: [00:05:25] Kayla Rae Whitaker's work has been published in the Los Angeles Times, BuzzFeed, Electric Literature, and others. Her first novel, "The Animators," was named a best book of 2017 by Entertainment Weekly, NPR, Kirkus, and BookPage. Her second novel, "Returns and Exchanges," was published by Random House in May 2026. She is a graduate of the University of Kentucky and New York University. She writes and teaches in Queens, New York. Welcome, Kayla, and thanks so much for talking with me today. Kayla: Thanks for having me, Carrie. This is great. Carrie: And, I should also mention that you're a veteran of Books and Bites, so you- Kayla: I sure am Carrie: appeared on Books and Bites with your first novel, "The Animators," and then you've also been on Prompt to Page, our writing podcast, giving your favorite writing prompt. Kayla: Very happily so. I'm always happy to join in the conversation. Carrie: Excellent. Well, we're glad to have you. So can you tell us a [00:06:25] little bit about the inspiration for your novel? Kayla: Sure. So writing about work and labor are kind of sweet spots for me. It definitely came out in "The Animators," and that focused on making art and making art as a living. With "Returns and Exchanges," I wanted to write about a family business. I also wanted to write about class ascension and these ideas of the American Dream that are still prevalent in our culture, albeit really different for millennials, Gen X, Gen Z. So our ideas of what the American Dream is and whether or not it's achievable have really shifted from those of our grandparents, I think. And so in writing about the Taylors and in writing about their discount department store, Baker-Taylor's, which in the book is headquartered in Lexington, Kentucky, I wanted to address some of those issues. Carrie: And you do so really beautifully, and I think one of the things that I love about it is, you know, it's this sweeping family story, so you're also [00:07:25] able to kind of show the differences in those age groups that you mentioned because of the different ages of the family members. Kayla: Absolutely. So, the way that the kids view work as opposed to their parents, the kinds of values that the four Taylor children receive about work and about doing their job, quote, unquote, from their mother and their father, how they define themselves by their work, how they don't define themselves by their work. So those were... I wanted to address all of those perspectives, and so it sort of became a family epic the longer that I worked on this. So it was eight to nine years to write and edit this. So it's definitely expansive, but the more I wrote, the more I realized this family had a lot to say about how work and life connect. Carrie: So you brought up how long it took you to write, and of course, this is something that [00:08:25] I know, especially for those of us who have other jobs, you know, not everyone is James Patterson with his fleet of ghostwriters and all of that stuff. In the library, I hear from a lot of people, and I think it's, you know, just people who are excited about the next book, you know, "I want... What's taking them so long? I want to read this writer's next book." So what would you say, I guess, to someone who might say that? Kayla: I think the age of a writer just being a writer with a capital W, or I should say being an author, which is definitely a very different job, I think, than being a writer, those days are gone. So it is 2026, publishing is very different from what it was around the turn of 2000. Most of the published authors I know also have other jobs. So you have multiple jobs, I also have multiple jobs. My day job is [00:09:25] teaching high school English. So in fact, I have trouble remembering a time when I only had one job, and I think that is very much the norm for people these days just in terms of staying afloat. So if you make a bit of income from what you are writing, that is fantastic, but it is not safe to bank on that as your sole stream of income. So it's always best to have multiple tools in the fire, so a lot of people talk about having side gigs. So in this case, it's just, it's having multiple jobs at once, and that's a new way of life, and it's not going anywhere. Carrie: And yet it does enrich our writing in certain ways, too. What do you think about that? Kayla: Absolutely. I agree with you. So I feel really lucky because I have two jobs that I love. So I usually start [00:10:25] my day with writing before I get ready to go to school, and then I teach a full day of classes. I work with my students. Having that connection to the world is everything. I think if I were to stay at home and just write all day every day, I'd go crazy at this point. So being able to talk with my students, to see literature through their eyes, to be able to have those multiple connections to the world, yeah, it makes your world, or I'm sorry, it makes your writing more a part of the world, right? It makes it richer. It connects you to other people. So yeah, I think there's a lot to be said for having a job that is outside of one making art, and then returning to that art in moments of isolation. Carrie: Right. And I know in talking to you about this before that you have some retail experience yourself. How did your [00:11:25] retail experience inform the writing of the novel? Kayla: I definitely worked retail when I was younger. Having jobs in the service industry really, it gave me a lot of tools to put in my toolbox. So, learning customer service, learning just how to deal with people, learning the ins and outs of blocking and being out on the floor and talking to customers, that was experience that was really valuable to me. And I can even see those skills transferring to my teaching, transferring to the way that I promote books. That's the seed of who you become as a professional. It's in those jobs that you had when you were 18, 19, 20 years old. So, and in fact, one job that I was very fond of was, I worked at a Big Lots in Lexington. And it's no longer there, unfortunately. There are other Big Lots branches in other states. The ones in Lexington, unfortunately, are no longer in [00:12:25] existence. But yeah, that was something that I was thinking about a lot when I was writing this. But I'm also in my 40s, and so what was occurring to me over and over again is, "Man, could I do those jobs anymore?" Because physically, they're incredibly strenuous. Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. Kayla: So, I'm not so sure I could buss dishes in the same way that I could when I was 22, and I'm not sure that I could stay on my feet on a store floor for hours at a time the way I did when I was 19. Carrie: Right. Kayla: So, I wanted to be realistic in how I wrote about retail work, and so Returns and Exchanges actually, fittingly enough, opens on Christmas Eve with the matriarch of the Taylor family, and she's dead on her feet. She's so tired. It's 1979. She never wants to see another Atari ever again. She's... Fran just being tired [laughter] and learning to live with the job that she's had for decades, that's a big part of this novel. Carrie: Yeah, [00:13:25] absolutely. So, you mentioned that you worked in Lexington, and of course, you went to UK. And the novel is set in Lexington, which I think many of our listeners will be excited about. And it's set in Lexington primarily in the 1980s, too. So, can you talk about your choice to set it there, and also maybe some of the research you had to do about that time period? Kayla: Oh, it was so much fun. So, and I mean that. I love research, and that probably came out in The Animators, and it definitely comes out here. I am originally from Mount Sterling. Lexington was my very first city. It was the very first place where I saw an escalator. It was the first place where I ever had to use a parking structure. So these are just parts of metropolitan life that I first encountered in Lexington. And, Lexington is a smaller city, but I loved living there. I feel a strong tie to the [00:14:25] city even now. My family lives there now, so I go back pretty often. So it just made sense for this story to be set there. And especially Fred and Fran, the parents in the novel, and the primary motors of Baker-Taylor's, the store owners, they are from Eastern Kentucky, and as young adults, Lexington was their first city as well. That was where they moved to kind of make their fortune and start their business. So having this story seated in Lexington was something that I was really excited about. I also wrote a big chunk of this during COVID, and I live in New York. At the time, I was living in Brooklyn, and so for a little over a year, I wasn't really able to travel down to Lexington. It was actually, like, the longest period of time that I'd ever spent away from Kentucky, so I was terrifically homesick. And a lot of the research that I [00:15:25] did about Lexington, going through newspaper archives, trying to figure out when the Lexington Herald and the Lexington Leader became the Lexington Herald-Leader. Trying to envision what Lexington would have felt like as a motorist before New Circle Road was ever paved. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Kayla: When did people stop calling Nicholasville Pike Nicholasville Pike and start calling it Nicholasville Road? So, and it's- Carrie: Oh, wow. Kayla: You know. Yeah, so it would've been just before the Taylors opened up their second store there. I have a stack of Lexington books on my bedside table right now. And I always do. So it was I think a gesture of homesickness to be able to kind of steep myself in this research, and it's like, okay, I wanna find pictures of the Circle 25 Drive-In today, or I wanna find a picture from the mid-'70s of the Continental Inn today, or the bars down on High Street in the [00:16:25] mid-1970s. That was a way I sort of consoled myself when I wasn't able to come home. Carrie: Aww. [Laughter] Well, we're glad you can come home now. Kayla: Yeah. So I take all of my, all of my breaks in Kentucky. So, yeah. So it's rare if I go anywhere else. Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. Kayla: Yeah. Carrie: Well, of course, this being Books and Bites, we have to talk about what we would pair with the novel. So, what would you pair with Returns and Exchanges? Kayla: Hoo, boy, so many ideas. So this is very much a mid-century novel. Fran, in getting ready for Christmas in the first part of that book, she talks about dressing a ham with cherries and pineapples- Carrie: Oh, yes. Kayla: ... Which is very mid-century, and in fact, was something that our granddad used to do. So every ham for Christmas, Easter, whatever holiday we were celebrating, [00:17:25] it was always red and green cherries with pineapples pinned to the ham with toothpicks. So that's a big one, but honestly, when I think about Fran, and I think about this working mom who has four kids but is working, like, full days at the store, what would she fix? What would be the easiest thing for her to do? I think of things that I make, like bacon grease vinaigrette. Carrie: Mmm. Kayla: Which I love making. So super easy. You fry up a pound of bacon. You drain the bacon grease. You put a little apple cider vinegar or white wine vinegar in it, sugar, salt. That's it. It makes a great dressing for a salad. Carrie: Yeah. Kayla: The second recipe I think of is Cowboy Cookies. Carrie: What are cowboy cookies? Kayla: Oh boy, it's very '70s/'80s. Carrie: Okay. Kayla: So I actually, I know the visual is off here, but I have my little [00:18:25] Moleskine recipe book. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Kayla: And the Cowboy Cookie recipe that my mother used when we were kids, I have this in my recipe book, and I believe she got it from an issue of Woman's Day Magazine at some point in the early 1980s. So I think I've got the exact year listed in here. Carrie: That's awesome. Kayla: Yeah. It's, it's- Carrie: Did you know that, did you know that I worked at Woman's Day Magazine when I lived in New York? Kayla: No kidding. Wait a second. I don't think I knew that you worked at that exact magazine. That's fantastic. Carrie: Yeah. [Laughter] Kayla: Oh boy. They- Carrie: And I was actually in the reader services department, so it was like, readers would call up and be like, "I used to have a Cowboy Cookie recipe and I can't find it anymore." So it was kind of like a librarian position at a magazine. Kayla: Oh, yeah. Yeah, that's research. That's amazing. Yeah, so they had wonderful recipes. I remember [00:19:25] leafing through Woman's Day when I was a kid because she would have copies at the house. It's a great recipe. It's basically like an oatmeal chocolate chip cookie. Carrie: Okay. Kayla: And the heart of the recipe is Crisco. Carrie: Naturally. Kayla: Naturally, yeah. So, and it's best with Crisco. I've tried it with butter. It's not as good. So the Crisco is really the heart of the recipe. So, courtesy of Woman's Day Magazine, I'm happy to share that recipe with you if you wanna share it with listeners. Yeah. Carrie: Yeah, absolutely. We'll put the recipe on our blog. Kayla: Yeah. Awesome. Carrie: One final question. Do you have any book recommendations for our listeners? Kayla: Oh, wow. So I've got some things that I read this past summer that I'm really excited about. I think the first one, it's in thinking of women and work, and books about women and work, I read a book called State Champ. The [00:20:25] writer is Hilary Plum. Yeah, I find myself thinking about it so often. So it's about a young woman who is a, she's a former track champion, but she was employed at a women's clinic that was shut down. And so in protest, she goes on a hunger strike. Carrie: Oh, wow. Kayla: So a lot of it is just about the connection that she felt to her work, why she felt it was important to hold this hunger strike. But the sense of voice there is something I can't get over. It's a beautiful book. First person, just the way that the voice is sort of formed there is fantastic. I think the other book about women and work that I've read just recently that I've really loved is Head Shot. So the writer is Rita Bullwinkle. Came out in '24, I think. And it's actually, each chapter is told from the perspective of a different teenage girl who is an amateur but looking to be pro boxer. So it's about, yeah, training as a [00:21:25] boxer. It's about what it's like to be in the ring, how they feel about their work. Head Shot had a really big impact on me. Carrie: So that would count for the workers or workplace prompt, but we have another prompt on our bingo sheet about books about sports. So it sounds like that one would fulfill two prompts. So thanks for those recommendations. Kayla: Yes. And I think I've... Actually, I've got another one. So there was- Carrie: Oh, okay. Kayla: And it's another track book. I'm not sure how I ended up reading two books about track this year, but there was a book called We Loved to Run, and the writer is Stephanie Reents. So it's R-E-E-N-T-S, and it's about a college track team, a women's college track team, and- Carrie: Perfect Kayla: ... you know, yeah, how they train, how they feel about themselves as athletes, so their relationship to running. Another great sports book. Carrie: So yeah, three great sports books and workers and workplace books. Thank you, Kayla. [Laughter] Kayla: I'm always happy to talk [00:22:25] book recommendations. It's one of my favorite things to do. So you could probably see me light up when you ask me, "What are you reading these days?" [Laughter] Carrie: Well, excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Kayla: Okay. Thanks, Carrie. Michael: My recommendation is Horrorstör by Grady Hendrix. I'm a big Grady Hendrix fan. He's a horror author who does an incredible job blending horror, heart, and humor into his books like My Best Friend's Exorcism and We Sold Our Souls. And if you've ever worked in retail or the service industry like I have, Horrorstör is definitely a book you'll wanna check out. The story is set in Cleveland, Ohio, at a recently opened Orsk, a fictional store described as a, "all-American furniture superstore in Scandinavian drag," an Ikea knockoff. We follow three Orsk [00:28:50] employees, Amy, Basil, and Ruth Anne. Amy is a burned-out, jaded retail worker who's just trying to get by. She recently managed to move out of her mom's trailer to attend college, but when she couldn't get enough financial aid, she had to drop out. Now she's behind on her rent, stuck working at Orsk, trying her best to transfer back to her old store. Ruth Anne is the model employee who everyone loves. She remembers everyone's birthdays, hiring anniversaries, and favorite products, and whose whole life is working at Orsk. Then there's Basil, the straight-laced, by-the-book deputy store manager who Amy is convinced is looking for any excuse to fire her. One morning, Basil calls Amy and Ruth Anne to his office. Amy assumes one of them is about to get fired, but Basil has a very different request in mind. Over the past several weeks, strange things have been happening throughout the store. Mirrors have been smashed, curtains have been ripped down from the walls, a mattress has been hacked to pieces, and that morning, someone smeared a foul-smelling substance [00:29:50] all over a couch. [Laughter] You can probably guess what that is. And those aren't even the strangest things happening at Orsk. Employees have been receiving mysterious text messages simply saying, "Help." Graffiti keeps appearing throughout the store referring to something called the Beehive. And despite all this, the security cameras haven't been able to capture anything. So Basil proposes that Amy and Ruth Anne work an extra overnight shift with him to figure out who or what is responsible, because regional management is sending a consultant team first thing in the morning, and Basil wants answers before they arrive. But as their investigation progresses through the darkened store, they run into two other employees, Matt and Trinity, who have snuck into the store through the back. Matt is convinced that Orsk is haunted, and has come hoping to capture evidence of paranormal activity. As the group makes its way through the store, they discover that Orsk is far more maze-like and far bigger than it should be. There are noises coming from empty aisles, and see [00:08:00] figures slipping through the shadows, and the deeper they go into the store, the more they begin to uncover the horrifying secret buried beneath Orsk. The one thing that stood out to me was how Hendrix is able to capture what it's like to work in retail, that everyday grind of just trying to make it through another shift, an unfulfilling job, while filling the pockets of the corporate execs. And one of the coolest things about Horrorstör is the way the book itself is designed. It's constructed to look like an actual Orsk furniture catalog, with each chapter opening with a piece of furniture and a description of the product. If you ever worked retail, spent too much time wandering around the giant furniture store, or just enjoy horror that can make you laugh one minute and feel deeply uncomfortable the next, I highly recommend Horrorstör by Grady Hendrix. There's only one pairing for a book set in an IKEA knock-off store, and that's Swedish meatballs. I found a recipe on savoringthegood.com that replicates the famous IKEA recipe. It [00:30:50] calls for the usual ingredients like ground pork, ground beef, breadcrumbs, onions, eggs, and then soy sauce, Dijon mustard, and cream for the sauce. The recipe would be great for a tailgate this fall. Carrie: Mm. Yeah, that sounds good. I like ... There's a couple other things I like at IKEA, though, their smoked salmon. Michael: Ooh, I bet, yeah. Carrie: And then they have those ginger snaps that are really good. So, I think you could have a whole little- Michael: IKEA spread, right Carrie: meal. Yeah, a whole little IKEA spread. Michael: I haven't been to an IKEA yet. Carrie: Oh, really? Michael: But after reading this, I kinda wanna check one out. Carrie: Oh, wow. Michael: Maybe. Carrie: Yeah, I mean, I think that for a lot of people, my husband included, they are a nightmare, so... [Laughter] But the cover that you have, it really does look like an IKEA catalog. Michael: Mm-hmm. Carrie: I don't know that they give out print catalogs anymore, but when they used to, [00:31:50] and that, yeah, that kinda looks like the instructions. Michael: It's got a map, too, of the entire store layout, which I think is probably comparable to what an IKEA would actually look like. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Even the same font and everything. Michael: Really? And it's funny 'cause it's got like, you know, job postings, faux job postings. Carrie: Oh, nice. Michael: And then as you get deeper into the chapters, the furniture items for each chapter get a little more, um- Carrie: Dark?... Michael: Uh, darker. [Laughter] More torture device-y- Carrie: Oh, wow ... Michael: if you would say. Carrie: Yeah, somebody had fun with that. So you were talking about retail. Have you worked retail? Michael: Oh, yes. Carrie: Oh, that's right, you worked, Whole Foods. Michael: Whole Foods. I've been in Winn-Dixie. I've worked at restaurants and bars. So I've done it all, just about- Carrie: Okay ... Michael: in the service industry. Carrie: Mm-hmm. So you can relate to the- Michael: Oh, yeah Carrie: characters. Michael: Showing up at [00:32:50] 3:30 in the morning to throw eight pallets of produce in the cooler before it gets too warm. Carrie: Mm-hmm, yep. Michael: So yeah. Yeah, that was what I liked. It's like, "Oh, yeah, I get this. This is, this was my life for a long time." Carrie: Right. Just in a different setting. Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I thought if it was ghosts, that would've made it a little more fun, I think. Carrie: [Laughter] Yeah. Jacqueline: I read the book Check & Mate by Ali Hazelwood for the prompt about workers or the workplace. This young adult novel begins in the summer after 18-year-old Mallory's graduation from high school. Mallory begins working in her uncle's garage to help pay the bills when her mother's illness keeps her from working full time. Now her mother's condition has worsened [00:34:50] and she can barely work at all. Although Mallory has a 4.0 GPA and quite a few scholarship offers, she has elected to put her future on hold to help support her family. Mallory was once a promising chess player and her father would take her to compete in tournaments. But all this changed when she discovered that her father was having an affair with the arbiter. She felt she could not keep the affair secret from her mother. The aftermath was devastating. Her parents divorced and later her father died in a car accident while driving under the influence. Mallory associated the trauma of the divorce and her father's death with the chess world, so she quit chess and did not play again for years. She believes she owes her family everything because in her mind, if she had not told her mother, her parents would not have divorced and her father would not have died. She feels responsible for taking the childhood away from her sisters, and now she's become a secondary caregiver. [00:35:50] When Mallory unexpectedly defeats the world chess champion at a charity chess event, she is offered a scholarship and a paid internship to play chess. At first, she rejects the opportunity because it would require her to return to the world of competitive chess. However, because of the commitment and the responsibility she feels towards her family, she realizes that if she does not seize this opportunity, her family may lose their home. Can she move forward and become part of the chess world again, or will her past trauma keep her from moving forward? The author did a good job of making Mallory sympathetic and likable because of her commitment to her family. She portrayed her as a real person who worried about losing friendships and was afraid of committing to serious relationships. The novel also did an excellent job of portraying how trauma can affect a person's passions and life choices. Although this book is marketed as a rival to lovers trope, [00:36:50] I found the aspect of that narrative lacking since Nolan liked Mallory from the beginning. He never seemed to do anything other than help her work through her trauma. While the romantic relationship between Mallory and Nolan was an important part of the story, I felt that some of the sexual references and innuendos were unnecessary. For me, they distracted from the stronger themes of family responsibility, trauma, and self-discovery. Other readers may not be bothered by this content, but I felt some of it felt a little forced. I chose, of course, Chocolate Chess Squares from A Taste of Madness for my recipe. So even though it calls for a cake mix, it sounds really good and chocolatey. And you cut it into, like, little chess-looking pieces, and so anyway. Carrie: Yeah. Cute. Maybe you should make that for your chess club sometime. Jacqueline: That's true. I should, shouldn't I? They would love that, I think. They're really serious, though. They're [00:37:50] like, chess people are, like, locked in. Carrie: Oh, yeah? Jacqueline: Yeah. It's like they barely wanna talk to you. You know? There's no- Carrie: It's not about socializing. [Laughter] Jacqueline: It is not about socializing. Carrie: It's not like the knitting club or crochet or whatever. Jacqueline: Uh-uh. This is about winning. [Laughter] Michael: I just started learning to play chess and phew. Jacqueline: Yeah? Michael: Oh, my gosh. Jacqueline: Oh. Michael: Yeah. Jacqueline: There's a lot of strategy involved- Michael: Yes Jacqueline: and stuff like that. Michael: And every piece moves differently and can move only certain places. Jacqueline: Mm-hmm. Michael: Like, the- Jacqueline: That's true. Michael: Yeah ... the knight can only go, like- Up and over or down and over, and the queen can go almost anywhere, up and down or- Jacqueline: Yeah, the queen's the most powerful piece... Michael: the king can move one spot. But then once your king is gone, you're done. You're out. Jacqueline: Oh, that's out. You're out. Yeah. Michael: Then you check, checkmate. That's checkmate. I'm still trying to figure out how checkmate works. [00:38:50] Yeah. But yeah. I was like, what did I get myself into? Jacqueline: Well, you should come to the teen-adult. We are doing a new, teen-adult chess night. Michael: Really? Jacqueline: We're trying it out. We did a few in the spring, and we're gonna do two this fall. Michael: Oh, man. Jacqueline: So you should come and play chess with some other adults and... Michael: So how much spice is in- Jacqueline: It's a little spicy, but not too bad. Carrie: So, and you know, as you said, some people like spice, so- Jacqueline: Yeah, Carrie: Every book is, you know, has its reader. Jacqueline: Yeah, and especially with, you know, there's the romance aspect, so there's gonna be a little bit of that in any book just about. Michael: Yeah. Carrie: Thanks for listening to the Books and Bites podcast. Our theme music is The Breakers from the album In Close Quarters with the Enemy by Scott Whiddon. You can learn more about Scott and his music at his website, [00:39:50] adoorforadesk.com.