Lauren (00:00.115) you Vanessa (00:01.036) Welcome to The Shrinkdown. Today we're going to be talking about women supporting women. Do we do this? Do women actually support women? If not, why not? And what is the impact of us not supporting each other? And also, what are the benefits of women supporting women? Before we get into today's topic, we're going to be doing our four-minute faves. So who wants to start? Lauren (00:03.539) Thank Teri (00:20.323) I will. Okay. I'm going to share something I got for Christmas in 2023. So about a year ago, because I've given it a good year's worth of use, not use, is it worth it? It is the Omnilux LED face mask. And a lot of people have asked me about it, some of you guys included. And because it's I mean, you're obviously not going to use it. Lauren (00:20.945) I'll go ahead. Yeah, go! Vanessa (00:21.927) Hahaha! Wilhelmina (00:22.331) Thank Lauren (00:29.854) Ooh. Wilhelmina (00:37.275) Vanessa (00:39.07) I have it. Yeah. Yes. Lauren (00:39.343) yes. Yeah. Teri (00:49.411) every single night. I mean, that's just not going to happen. And I sometimes forget I take out my contacts and then I can't see anything without my contacts. And God forbid, I sit there in silence for 10 or 15 minutes not being occupied. So I only use it when I still have my contacts in. But truth be told, it's hard for me to quantify, but I do see a difference in my skin when I'm good about consistently using it and then when I fall off. Wilhelmina (00:50.939) You Wilhelmina (00:57.179) Yeah, you're blind. Yeah. Lauren (00:59.216) Hahaha. Teri (01:18.626) I think my skin looks brighter and healthier and it's probably very, only something I would notice. Or maybe if, I don't know, if I had like my best friend or sister or someone living with me to see my skin every day. I mean, Dan, no, no feedback from Dan. Yes, exactly, exactly. I do think though it's not placebo. Lauren (01:18.706) Okay. Lauren (01:26.003) I'm sorry. Lauren (01:30.789) Right, right. Wilhelmina (01:34.222) Dan isn't giving you a quat, like staring at your face to be like, hmm, I see a slight improvement. Lauren (01:40.249) Hahaha. Teri (01:44.491) I think when I'm using it and I'm good about it, even if it's not every single night, but every other night or a couple nights in a row, I do notice a difference. So I recommend it's the red light, real easy. It charges, you strap it on, you press it. I think it's about 10 minutes. You can, there is a red glow around the eyes. It looks kind of freaky, but you can watch TV. You can be on your phone. You can do emails. You can do things while it's on, but I would not walk downstairs or other things that I learned. Lauren (02:11.571) No visual spatial activities. Teri (02:13.762) You should not be doing it. You shouldn't be really zooming around the house with an eye. Yes. Yes. Vanessa (02:14.342) Hahaha. Vanessa (02:19.16) have it. I actually have that too. And I need to get back to using it because I stopped using it for a while. And I do feel like maybe it was helping like because I can tell like my skin has just been off lately. But I was actually because they sell like the neck one. So you know what I did? I would just flip it sideways and use it like on my neck. Yeah. Yeah. So you can't. Thank you. Wilhelmina (02:38.042) Hmmmm Lauren (02:38.309) interesting. Use it on your neck. Teri (02:39.008) You're a genius. Wilhelmina (02:41.848) You Vanessa (02:45.9) So yeah, so if you flip it like the long way, I mean, there's like the mouth hole. So I would just like alternate so that the whole, you know, so I just alternate. But yeah, I used it for the longest time and it worked really well. And then I just somehow got out of the habit. We, our last episode was talking about like habits and goal setting. So thank you for the reminder that I need to start using that again. But yes, you can turn it sideways and use it on your neck to firm your neck skin. Yes. Lauren (03:03.472) Yeah. Teri (03:09.634) I like it. I'll do that. Lauren (03:10.163) I like that. Very cool. Wilhelmina (03:12.036) Well, and I remember you both getting it and then I was on the fence and I was like, I'll let, I'll wait until they let me know. And then I feel like I, you both were like, I mean, I think so. And so then I, and I didn't hear anything. So I was like, okay, I guess it's not. So this is a good, like I'll put it back on the list of potential things to get when I'm treating myself to look like a, I love the videos of the women wearing it. Lauren (03:14.855) Yeah. Lauren (03:33.213) Thank my gosh. Teri (03:37.986) I know. It's an intense look when you're wearing it. Vanessa (03:38.796) scary red light. Yes, it is. Lauren, what are you sharing today? Lauren (03:40.589) Right, Wilhelmina (03:42.33) I'm Lauren (03:45.245) So sort of on theme in support of women, do we support women? Not that this woman needs any support, but I'm reading Mel Robbins' new book, The Let Them Theory. Yeah. I have it on Audible. I do too. And so I actually got it on Audible on purpose because I like her rhythm of speaking. If you've ever listened to any of her podcasts, that's exactly what the book sounds like. As psychologists, I feel like we're constantly looking Wilhelmina (03:55.035) Yes, I have it too. Yes. Teri (03:56.803) I love her. Wilhelmina (04:06.756) Mm-hmm. Lauren (04:14.961) to keep ourselves up to date with various psychological concepts and theories and things like that for our work. But certainly we like to practice what we preach as well. And this is just like a fresh new take on things that we already know. So she's not really teaching us anything that is new or groundbreaking. And in fact, she says that. She talks about philosophers having these kinds of theories and psychologists. speaks with a neuropsychologist. is it a neurologist? throughout the book. And so I'm maybe like a quarter of the way into it. But on Audible, it's great. It sounds like one of her podcasts. And it's a nice reminder of focusing. So actually going back to our previous last week's podcast on goal setting, and it's a good reminder of focusing on what you can control, right? And then letting everything else vary, letting everything else go, let them Wilhelmina (04:57.103) Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (05:07.95) Mm-hmm. Lauren (05:13.955) is this idea of we can't control other people. It's a really freeing concept to remind yourself of, right? We can only focus on what we can focus on. And so if that is our goals, for example. But so far, so good. I really enjoy it. Wilhelmina (05:27.608) Yeah, I've really enjoyed watching her videos on promoting this book. And I've actually already used it in session with some of patients where talking about like, yeah, your family member might be upset if you set that boundary or decide not to do that, but you can let them be upset and still think this is the best thing for you. And you're right, it's not a new concept, but this idea of like, you can just let them feel what they're feeling and that's okay. Lauren (05:30.001) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Vanessa (05:49.654) Mm-hmm. Teri (05:55.683) Yeah, they're allowed to not like that or be upset with that. I feel like it's a better fleshed out user friendly way to explain radical acceptance. Lauren (05:59.229) Right. Wilhelmina (06:05.528) Yes. Yeah. Lauren (06:06.129) Well, that she talks about that she talks about she talks about cognitive behavioral concepts in terms of really the problem is control. And when we try to control other people and what's happening with other people or what they're doing, that's the problem. That's what makes us anxious. Right. So yeah, it is it's a much more palatable. That's what I think I like about it. And that's what I would suggest for really for anybody, whether it's a psychologist or anybody that's just looking for like a really just good motivational self help kind of Wilhelmina (06:13.783) Mm-hmm. Lauren (06:34.195) Easy listen if you're somebody that likes an audible book. It's a more palatable way of digesting psychological concepts that I think sometimes even we as psychologists get a little caught up in some of the nuances of the terms and the theories in the research and she's doing a really nice job of breaking it down. So it's a good one. Vanessa (06:53.39) Good. Well, let me know what are you sharing with us today? Wilhelmina (06:57.411) Yeah, so I have a little unusual one. For anyone who knows me sort of locally, I make really good popcorn. I bring it to, yes, yes. I bring it. So I bring it to, I know, I know, I actually will. Lauren (07:11.867) I did not know this about you. Where is this coming from? Teri (07:13.398) Thank you. Vanessa (07:14.476) I did not know this either. Teri (07:15.98) I did, but all the, yes. Vanessa (07:17.966) Now you have to make some on our next trip because I, now I need to know. Lauren (07:22.769) I know, we need a night in. Okay, yeah, perfect, perfect. Wilhelmina (07:25.176) I will bring the ingredients and I will make my popcorn. My friends call it my like crack corn because they're like, what is this? I'm like, it's just my popcorn. And so the way I make it is on the stove. so I had this pot that I used. This was my like everything pot, right? I made spaghetti in this pot. I did everything in this pot. But it was one of the non-sticks where you're like, then it was starting to like peel off and I'm like, cancer risks and all the rest. And finally I was like, Lauren (07:34.534) I love it. Lauren (07:53.265) Alright. Wilhelmina (07:54.915) I got rid of it and I got a new pot. I do not like this pot as much and it sucks for making popcorn. And I've been like disheartened because I'm like, my popcorn, like I don't know what to make my popcorn in. And so I believe this was like December 23rd. My friend and I had just worked out at Orange Theory and we were at the grocery store, which is right next door. And they had a Whirly Pop popcorn maker like on sale, like in the grocery store. Lauren (08:02.067) Wilhelmina (08:23.354) And I passed by it and I was like, ooh. And my friend Kate was like, no, keep walking. Owen's going to kill you. And I'm like, but, but she's like, you're not going to use that. And I looked it up and I'm like, but the reviews are really good. And it's only 14.99. And I ended up getting it. Um, my husband was like, what did $15. Right. Okay. Um, and then my kids were so excited because there's a crank. Teri (08:40.866) $14.99, $15? Okay, okay. Yep. Lauren (08:44.357) Yeah. Lauren (08:52.87) my gosh, we're in our old school. Is it red and white? Is it red and white? Teri (08:53.663) my gosh. How long is this going to last? Will this last? Yeah. Will this last a long time? Okay. Yeah. Wilhelmina (08:54.138) Are we are all still? What? I think so it's just like a metal, steel, like whatever. And you, I make it the same way. So I put the oil in and then I put the popcorn in and you do stand there and you crank it. But I was already standing there and like shaking it. So like, was not walking away from my popcorn anyway. So it doesn't really change it. But I know it's ridiculous. like, I'm very passionate. Seriously, my book ladies are gonna be like, Lauren (09:14.194) Yeah. Vanessa (09:20.27) We're very passionate about your popcorn. It's amazing. Lauren (09:21.59) I love it! Teri (09:22.048) Yeah, was never walking away from my popcorn. Yeah. Vanessa (09:28.277) you Wilhelmina (09:30.607) Yes, her popcorn is, this is true. And so I made it several times over break and I was thrilled with the results because there were no kernels or very few kernels. It was consistent every single time and it was so easy. And they actually say, since you're just using it for popcorn, they're like, just wipe it out and you don't even have to really wash it. They're like, just wipe it out. They're like, if it's going to be like months, wash it. But they're kind of like, if you're using it regularly. Lauren (09:30.951) This is true. This is accurate. Lauren (09:40.093) That's so funny. Vanessa (09:53.357) Yeah. Lauren (09:57.394) Yeah. Wilhelmina (09:59.451) which I do. And so I just am like a huge fan. And I think I even, even though Owen gave me just like so much grief over buying it, cause he's like, we going to put this thing and da da da? He was like, I mean, it's a pot. then the crank is like, it's, takes. Yes. But it is so good. And for anyone who loves popcorn, especially like StoveTop, it is so good. I will. Lauren (10:00.773) Ha ha ha ha! Vanessa (10:13.934) How big is it? Lauren (10:18.934) my gosh, you have to find a link for it. We have to see this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Vanessa (10:19.758) Yeah, we'll post it. Teri (10:19.97) B- Yeah. Lauren (10:25.948) Yeah! I love it. I can't wait for our popcorn. Wilhelmina (10:29.346) Absolutely make popcorn. Yes. Yeah. yeah. It's very simple, but then I really think the main component that makes it delicious is the ranch seasoning popcorn seasoning I put on top. And I do bring it to the movie theaters as well to put on the popcorn at the movie theaters. And the first time I did this, my friend was like, did you just have that in your purse? And I'm like, mm-hmm. Vanessa (10:32.395) you Lauren (10:42.835) of course. Lauren (10:49.029) you are that person. Vanessa (10:55.053) haha Lauren (10:55.687) Ha ha ha ha! Wilhelmina (10:55.995) And then the next time I went to a movie with her, she's like, you are bringing your ranch seasoning, right? I was like, I never go to the movies without my ranch seasoning. So yeah, I'll be bringing it. yeah, Whirly Pop, Popcorn Maker. Vanessa, what about you? Lauren (11:02.983) you Lauren (11:07.379) I love it. Vanessa (11:08.686) my gosh. Okay, so I'm sharing a book. We all know that I read the same genre of books unless I'm reading something that's work related. So this is a adult high romance fantasy book. And I don't share often because most of what I read is just like fluff reading. It's not award winning anything. It's just something that I like to read just to just an easy read to not have to think too hard. But this was a new author to me. It's Rebecca Yaros. And the book series is called Fourth Wing. yes, so yeah, so it's really popular. So the rating is on Goodreads, it's a 4.58. It's had 2.5 million ratings. And it has 290,748 reviews. So this was actually one of those books. So I have a friend who really likes the genre too. And I don't, every once in a while when I read a really good one, I will text her and say, okay, you gotta check this out. So if I'm, Wilhelmina (11:41.967) I've heard of this, yes. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Lauren (11:42.106) yeah, yeah, yeah. Yep. Lauren (11:50.119) Yeah. Wilhelmina (11:50.682) That's crazy. Lauren (11:54.867) Yeah. Vanessa (12:06.306) promoting this series because it was so good that I was like, okay, I have to share this one. So it's fourth wing, it's by Rebecca Yaros. The first two books are out and the third one in the series is coming out at the end of this month. But it was just so well written. So I've told you all before that I really love Sarah J. Maas who also writes adults, high romance fantasy. So I would say that she's not quite at SJM level for me, but it's very close, close enough that I was like, okay, I have to share this. just to give you like a snippet of it, it's kind of reminds me of a little bit of like the Divergent. So remember the Divergent series or the movie in the concepts, at least of there's different factions. So remember you went into a different faction. So it's a little bit like that. But these young adults get to choose what faction they they don't call it faction. I know what they call it. But it's you know, they're going to choose kind of what their calling is in life, what they're kind of going to do, pursue for their career. So the main character, she's 20 years old. Wilhelmina (12:41.569) Okay. Lauren (12:42.319) yeah! Vanessa (13:05.654) They don't say what she has, but they reference a lot about her having being kind of frail bodied, smaller. And so when I looked it up to say, like, what is it that they're referencing that they never quite say? But basically, the author has made this primary character have Ehlers-Danlos syndrome, which is a connective tissue disorder. So they don't say that, but she definitely describes her as having this connective tissue disorder. And so she's this character who Lauren (13:22.717) Okay. Teri (13:25.58) Yeah. Vanessa (13:33.964) her whole life, she has thought she's going into this realm of being basically a bookkeeper, working in, know, keeping records for this world and basically working in the equivalent of a library. And right before it's kind of her turn, like she's turned however old, you know, she's 20 and she's supposed to go off and pursue this career. She is then forced to. go into a different career path where it's more, if you think of it as, guess, like good kind of way to describe it would be, it's kind of like a military job. So it's basically they're dragon riders. And so she's not equipped for this. She has never trained for this. And so it's like her, she's this character that you're thinking she's going to be doomed because there's no way she can do this. She's a book nerd. She's small. She's not, you know, she doesn't have any kind of physical kind of attributes that are going to help her. And so it's the story of this character. So it was really good. The characters are well done. The author does a really nice job. And what I think is really important when you're reading kind of fantasy is to kind of build and create this world so you can actually visualize what the characters look like, visualize what this city looks like and the things. So that's to me what creates a good fantasy fiction is that you can actually read it and visualize all that is going on. So it's really good. I'm really excited to read. I haven't finished the second one. I've been like, like reading little bits of it because I don't want to get to the end yet. Yes, because I know the other books not available yet. So I think it's January 21st. So highly recommend. Yes, highly recommend for anybody who loves that genre or if anybody wants to try to get into it. Sarah J. Maas is very long. I wouldn't it's that's a hard one to get into if this is not your genre. But I would say this one is good. It's three books. Lauren (15:03.325) You Wilhelmina (15:06.286) Savoring it, savoring it. Lauren (15:07.314) I'll be gone. Wilhelmina (15:11.492) Ooh, you're close. Vanessa (15:26.498) very palatable, really nice kind of easy read. So that's my recommendation. Lauren (15:31.133) Nice. Wilhelmina (15:31.418) And it's not YA, because I know Divergent is YA. This is not, okay, okay, okay. Vanessa (15:34.39) No, it's not YA. This is adult. So that's kind of been a, I think that's a newer kind of concept. I don't know exactly when, but this is adult romance. And so the characters tend to be, they're still young. So she's 20. So, but they're adults and they're doing adult things. And it's a romance. I mean, it has romance in it. So whenever it's adult romance, it's gonna have, think of it as a rated R book. Yeah. And very like, Lauren (15:52.708) You Wilhelmina (15:59.695) Thanks. Yeah. Lauren (16:01.425) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Teri (16:01.73) Thank you. Vanessa (16:03.392) When they do talk about it, they are going to be very descriptive. Whereas in the YA fantasy, it's PG-13. It's, you know, we kiss, you know, and then they move on. So yeah, so it's like rated R. But I don't like when books are like only about the romance and you're like, OK, where is it? So there is this is a storyline that is a part of it, but it's not the main part of it. So yes, this is Teri (16:04.438) Dragon sex. Wilhelmina (16:10.968) Yep. Yep. Wilhelmina (16:27.66) It's very popular. mean, I've seen that book everywhere. Yeah. Lauren (16:29.351) Yes, seen that everywhere. Yep. Vanessa (16:31.436) Yeah, I kept seeing it and that's my genre. But I didn't know, I wasn't familiar with this author and I finally was thought to myself, okay, I need to read this. I see it everywhere. This is my jam. I need to do it. And I really enjoyed it. Teri (16:46.178) All right, cool. Lauren (16:46.323) All right, cool. Wilhelmina (16:46.681) Awesome. Vanessa (16:47.202) Alright, okay. So let's get into the topic today. We're going to be talking about women supporting women. This was actually a topic that had we had come up with when we originally created the concept for this podcast. It was one of the topics we never got into it in the first season. But the reason why it came back is I think was at the end of November, Sydney Sweeney was interviewed. She's an actress. You probably are familiar, probably heard of her about her. She's been in Anyone But You. Wilhelmina (17:06.938) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (17:15.086) No. Vanessa (17:15.15) That was a really popular movie. She was in White Lotus. She's been in Euphoria, tons of things. she's, I don't want to say she's up and coming because she's already around, yeah, like she's, she's, she's really popular. Yes. And so in this article, she was interviewed and she was talking about this producer, movie producer, who was a female, who essentially was talking bad about her saying she was unattractive, that she wasn't talented, just. Lauren (17:17.811) app. Wilhelmina (17:22.11) she definitely, yeah. Lauren (17:24.167) Very popular right now. Yeah. Wilhelmina (17:40.013) Yeah. Vanessa (17:43.34) really digging into her. And it's not someone that she knew. There was never any relationship. And so that brought up, I forgot the title of the article, but we shared it. But it came up with this concept of, women support women? And basically, she was saying, in Hollywood, people like to say that they are, but they actually do not at all. So we thought we'd talk about this topic today. Why do women not support each other? And you know. Lauren (17:58.394) Absolutely not. Wilhelmina (18:01.38) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Vanessa (18:10.422) What's the kind negative impact because we know that there is and what are the positive outcomes? So why would we want to support each other other than you know, obviously being nice to one another? So what do you guys think? Do you think that women do a good job just in general? So don't think about yourself, but in general, do you think that women do a good job of supporting each other? It's a straight yes or no? No, no, I think we're all in agreement. No, we don't think we do a good job. Very. Lauren (18:29.831) No. No. No. Yeah. Isn't that awful? Teri (18:30.535) No, hard, quick answer, no, no. Wilhelmina (18:31.748) Mm-mm. Mm-mm. No. No. Teri (18:37.876) It's, it's, found the article. It was a BBC Sweeney says female solidarity and Hollywood is fake. And exactly what you were just saying. Yes. Wilhelmina (18:45.518) Mm-hmm. Lauren (18:46.067) So it was when she was talking of Vanity Fair. So the article is through Vanity Fair, but that's the soundbite BBC picked up. Yep. Yeah. Teri (18:51.627) Yes, you're correct. Yes. An interview with Vanity Fair and BBC picked up the soundbite. And I agree wholeheartedly. I think there's a lot of lip service, probably more than ever. But in terms of actual practice and what that looks like in real life, I do think it's probably career, workplace, community specific, depending on even probably religious background, neighborhood you live in. Lauren (18:56.903) Cool. Teri (19:20.514) Certainly workplace, if you're in education versus healthcare versus business or finance or sales or tech. Field of work, like I have a good friend who works in tech sales, right? So she's one of the only females who was in that work environment. So, but I think even across the board, when I relate my personal experience of having female supervisors and bosses. So I think I've had female clinical supervisors, which is different. Wilhelmina (19:26.234) Yeah, field of work, yeah. Vanessa (19:27.618) Yeah. Teri (19:48.279) because they're signing off on your hours and they're providing guidance and clinical direct supervision. I've also had two actual bosses who were one in particular who was completing employee reviews and my salary was based on her reviews and my salary increases. And that was the more, the last time I had a boss, that was it. And for myself personally, it was a very challenging work environment. Wilhelmina (19:48.356) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Lauren (19:48.903) Mm-hmm. Teri (20:14.91) not just for myself, but for all of the other female employees that were in that same work setting. And it was for a variety of reasons, but I remember having frequent thoughts of, she's also a woman. Why? I don't understand. I felt so confused. why wouldn't she want me to be successful? Wouldn't she want to provide the support and encouragement and type of encouraging environment that she probably would have appreciated having? Vanessa (20:32.184) Mm-hmm. Teri (20:44.354) 20 years ago when she was in my shoes. So I think it's very confusing. I imagine that's a place that Sydney Sweeney is coming from and kudos to her for calling out that producer because. Lauren (20:54.983) Yeah. Vanessa (20:55.416) Who was, by the way, a woman who was older, who's been around in the business for a while. Yes, they did. She's the producer of Buffy the Vampire. Uh-huh. Yeah, yeah. I forget what else she's done, but yeah. Lauren (20:58.343) Yeah. Yeah, they say her name. Wilhelmina (20:59.867) Did they say who it was? Teri (21:01.634) I'm gonna. Wilhelmina (21:04.98) yes, okay, I did read that. Yeah, yeah, okay. Lauren (21:07.955) Yeah, I mean, she went on record saying it. was very like, I don't understand why this person is popular. Wilhelmina (21:11.054) Yeah. Teri (21:13.046) Well, and I do think, I do think there's a bit, I think women do this sometimes with other women when they enter parenthood. well sort of like, pay your dues. I had to go through it. And I do think there's sort of that old school sentiment of nobody paved a pathway for me and I had to figure it out. So you go right ahead and do the same. I don't know. Wilhelmina (21:15.994) NNNN Lauren (21:22.349) I'm fine. Lauren (21:32.413) right. Lauren (21:36.787) So we don't have that old boys club. I don't think women have that in general. in looking at this article, and I think it speaks of it in the article, and then I kind of looked at it a little bit further, but they said it's really a generational problem. And hopefully, as each generation sort of progresses into adulthood, Teri (21:42.37) in our field, right? Wilhelmina (21:43.182) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, in general. Teri (21:47.746) Yeah, yeah, yeah. Lauren (22:02.791) for women, this will start to go away, but it's this idea that only one woman can be at the top. And so it's generational, right? And so this producer is from a generation in which that was absolutely true. We're from a generation where we would question that a little bit more. And Sydney Sweeney is even younger than us and is saying, why not, right? Which is a good thing. Like, why can't women support women and everybody, know, rising tides, raise all ships or whatever that saying is, right? Wilhelmina (22:07.78) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Vanessa (22:07.79) It's called the Queen Beans Wilhelmina (22:30.19) Raise all ships. Yep. Yep. Lauren (22:32.275) But it is, I mean, it absolutely is generational and there's facts, there's fact based information from where this woman is coming from, right? So her, not that what she said is right, but I think probably her experiences, only the most talented actresses can rise to the top. Why is this person popular? She's questioning her, she, the article said that she was watching that movie on a plane and was like, I don't get it. The, what was it? What's the movie? Teri (22:50.849) Yeah. Wilhelmina (23:01.728) Anyone but you. Lauren (23:02.479) anyone but you and she's like, I don't get it. I don't get why this woman is so popular, right? Well, I haven't seen that movie, but maybe it wasn't Sydney Sweeney's best work. I don't know. I mean, I liked her in White Lotus, but if that's the only example you have, this woman is just saying, I don't get it. Like, why is she so popular? Rather than saying like, great, awesome. So glad this woman is popular. Like, let's lift her up. I think it's probably more reflective of this woman's generation, just a guess, than Wilhelmina (23:08.748) so good. no, it's so cute. It's so cute. It's really cute. Vanessa (23:09.941) I'm Teri (23:11.444) It's cute. It's cute. Vanessa (23:28.814) So they talk about one of the things that drives the Queen Bee syndrome is that women who, like the concept behind it, is that women who are getting into, trying to get into predominantly male kind of led fields, that they have to basically take on male attributes, characteristics, and that's how you prove yourself. Wilhelmina (23:39.278) Mm-hmm. Lauren (23:39.699) dominated fields, right? Wilhelmina (23:43.768) Yes, yes. Lauren (23:45.011) 100%. Wilhelmina (23:47.363) Mm-hmm. Vanessa (23:47.468) that I'm one of the guys, I can be just like you, I can be cutthroat, I'm not gonna be, know, what we typically view as a woman as being kind of soft and nurturing that I have to be this way. And I do think that there some of that is generational, right? So the more women who, you know, go into a specific field and it becomes less male kind of led, I think you see less of that. But certainly, I imagine that in fields that are still predominantly, you know, male kind of led by males that you still see some of that. Lauren (23:47.667) Yep. Yep. Wilhelmina (23:50.522) with it. Lauren (23:57.138) rape. Lauren (24:06.386) Right. Vanessa (24:16.62) I have to prove myself. I have to act this way so that I can fit in and be seen as somebody who can lead and be in those leadership roles. Lauren (24:25.693) But then it brings up the question, sorry, Wilhelmina, but it brings up the question then why are, so if that's true in the career side of things, why are we doing that to women when we all share something in common like motherhood? Because it's happening all the time. I mean, you've heard from like celebrities that are moms that share things and then their mom's shamed and the people that are shaming them like on all of their Instagram posts or whatever are mothers, right? So it's like, why are we doing that? Wilhelmina (24:25.774) Well, and. Vanessa (24:32.45) Mm-hmm. Vanessa (24:38.741) yeah. Vanessa (24:47.704) Okay. Wilhelmina (24:50.382) Mm-hmm. So I reached out to several of my girlfriends to ask in their careers, because I have several friends who are in very male-dominated fields. So one of my good friends is a pilot, which is she's one of very few female pilots. She actually said there's only 4 to 6 % of pilots are women. And then I asked a friend who's in finance, and she often talks about kind of like how it is she's Vanessa (25:08.142) with you women. Teri (25:09.154) enough. Lauren (25:12.967) Mm-hmm. Wow. Wilhelmina (25:21.184) often the only female in the room or one of the only females in the room. And it was interesting because I actually had different things to say. So my friend who's a pilot said, because there's so few of us, there is a lot of support for women in the aviation field. Like we are often all trying to support each other. She's like, occasionally you run into that like Queen Bee syndrome. She's like, we're so such the minority that there are groups, there's organizations, we are usually trying to help each other out. Lauren (25:36.723) That's great. Vanessa (25:41.326) could be syndrome. Wilhelmina (25:50.235) She did say though, if you make a mistake because you are the minority, the microscope is on you. So like, it's like, well, see, you know, look at that versus like a man who makes a mistake. It's just, it's so, there's so many more of them that there's just not the microscope on them. And then my friend who's in finance was like, she said that she herself has mentored people and supported people. Lauren (25:56.807) Mm-hmm. Teri (25:57.484) makes sense. Wilhelmina (26:17.998) But she said, a lot of times it's you have to sort of prove yourself first. You kind of have to show that you're like, you're worth the support and empowerment. Like, I'm gonna, I'll help you, but you've got to kind of pay your dues and work for it before I take the time to sort of mentor you and sort of help raise you up. And she did say there's a difference between women who have had kids and who haven't had kids and sort of that mentality. Lauren (26:23.443) Yeah. Wilhelmina (26:47.867) actually she said sort of what we were talking about, like you kind of, some women are like, well, I didn't have any help with this. And so you have to do it. And then once you kind of show me you can do it, then maybe I'll help and help empower you and raise you up. Lauren (27:03.571) But is that a female thing or do men do that too? See, I don't know. But as you're saying that, it's like, well, isn't that sort of true of all? I would imagine that's not gender specific, that there is a type of personality in certain careers that's like, no, you figure it out, right? Teri (27:09.922) Okay. Wilhelmina (27:12.634) I'm, but yeah. Teri (27:20.926) I would agree with that. And I think there's sort of that mantra where that you unfortunately learn through the lived experience when you're a woman with a career who becomes a parent, where you're supposed to work like you don't have kids and parent like you don't have a job. And which I think is sort of what ends up happening. But I agree with you, Lauren. I think it's very probably person and career specific. Wilhelmina (27:36.174) Yes. Lauren (27:48.947) Yeah, that's what I'm. Teri (27:50.283) I was thinking of, there's this, have you guys heard of this rule of thirds or the magic third rule from Malcolm Gladwell? So he's the author of Outliers and The Tipping Point. And he says in the, I think it's in The Tipping Point, he says that when they've looked at corporate boards, when they bring one woman on as the token woman, or if they're trying to increase diversity and if it's a particular ethnicity, they say one woman actually doesn't shift the group dynamics. You have to get to at least three. Lauren (27:55.485) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Vanessa (28:01.39) Hmm. Lauren (28:04.232) think so. Wilhelmina (28:18.682) Bye. Teri (28:20.05) or at least one third of the group needs to be of the minority joining the board, actually have a shift. And so where I think when it comes to women supporting women, if you find yourself in a setting and whether it's a volunteer organization or a corporate board or a work setting and you're the token female, you need to get at least two other cohorts to. Wilhelmina (28:26.458) That makes sense. Wilhelmina (28:46.159) Yeah. Teri (28:46.75) join you so that you really can have more of an impact of shifting the overall dynamics of the group and be more effective. Wilhelmina (28:55.257) I think that's so tough, like what you were saying about you have to have a career like you don't have a family and you have to be a parent like you don't have a career. Did I say that right? Yeah. And it's so true. And that is one area where I feel like that has not shifted as much for women and men as it should, considering how many women are now doing both, working full-time in a career. Teri (29:04.128) Yeah, you don't have a job. Yep. Lauren (29:04.423) Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Teri (29:16.608) Mm-hmm. Okay. Wilhelmina (29:23.97) or even part-time in a career and being the primary parent, I'm surprised that has not shifted more than it has. Teri (29:31.554) in terms of the experience for in like heterosexual relationships for men versus women. Yeah. Wilhelmina (29:36.343) Yes, yes, yeah, and like the support like women, like you said with your, that your boss that you used to have, like how do you're a woman, you're like, you're, you know what I'm experiencing. Yes, like, can't you I've heard stories of like, male bosses talking to, like, I knew someone where he's like, why can't you get to the bus and or the train stop any earlier? She's like, because I'm Vanessa (29:42.029) Yes. Vanessa (29:47.726) Like, you know what I'm experiencing. Like, why can't you be more? Yeah. Yeah. Wilhelmina (30:04.334) getting my kids out the door. And he literally was like, well, I don't have problems. And she's like, because you have a wife at home who's doing that. And literally, he did not understand that. He was acting like she was lazy that she wasn't getting to the train stop, the earlier train, instead of just realizing that, wait, she is the person who's getting her kids off to school. Vanessa (30:11.374) I was doing that. Yeah. Teri (30:26.506) And I think that there's even female bosses though, where it doesn't even matter who your boss, yeah, it doesn't matter who your boss is. And sometimes, and that's not always the case. And I have friends and family members who have just have wonderful experiences with their boss. So I think it is very situation and person specific. And I also think there's probably such a culture depending on what work domain you're in and what's normalized versus not. Wilhelmina (30:31.15) Yes, right. Vanessa (30:51.116) Yes. Lauren (30:51.592) Yeah. Teri (30:54.913) Like Lauren had said, there's not a good old women's club, right? There's sort of the good old boys club in general in our society and that really doesn't exist. And I think, you know, girls become very skilled at relational aggression starting in third or fourth grade. And by that, that is more covert. You're invited to my birthday party. You're not the in-group, the out-group. And they become very skilled at that. And I think a lot of that just Lauren (30:58.845) Yeah. Lauren (31:10.493) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (31:17.39) Mm-hmm. Vanessa (31:17.592) Mm-hmm. Yep. Lauren (31:17.895) Right. Right. Teri (31:24.034) transfers and becomes a more sophisticated presentation as women age and whether that's in mom group friends, if that's in... Yes. Wilhelmina (31:32.941) Mm-hmm. Lauren (31:33.235) Right. Yeah. Vanessa (31:33.634) Or online, like Lauren was saying, like you see people feel that they can say whatever they want to say about somebody's parenting or whatever they're doing online that you can just make whatever negative commentary you want to make. And why do we think that that's OK? And why do we do that? But it's going back to like, this is something that you see early on. I can even say I have a second grader and I can already see it now in second grade. And it's scary. It's scary. Wilhelmina (31:58.702) yeah. Yeah. Lauren (32:01.885) So I think that's, was listening to some of the things you're saying and I think there is a difference and this is where I think I struggle and this is gonna make me sound like I don't support women but, and so help me through this thought. There's a difference, how do we support each other without providing excuses for disorganized behavior or bad behavior or things like that, right? So I'm listening to Wilhelmina's example about getting the earlier training, it's like, The question I want to ask is, but what time is she supposed to be at work? And with all due respect, if she's supposed to be at work at eight o'clock and every single day she's late because she's getting her kids off to school, then she needs to make a different plan in the morning. And that makes me sound so unsupportive, right? But the flip side is. Teri (32:45.666) Or if there's coworkers who also have kids who are getting there on time who are going, well, right. Lauren (32:49.937) Well, so is she being treated differently or is she using her womanhood as an excuse? And because I'm having that thought process, I'm thinking we all have that thought process and that's what, to go back to Vanessa's point, why are we not supporting each other? does, because we're all thinking those same things. Wilhelmina (33:01.21) other people argue. Wilhelmina (33:11.587) Yeah. Vanessa (33:11.886) I think that's different example. I I agree. Like if you're supposed to be at work at time, you know, and that's right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's to me more when I think of women supporting women is like, for a great example, is this actress, what does this woman, why are you even talking about this person? She's not, you don't know her. You don't, she's not affecting you in any way, right? So those are the times where I don't understand. Wilhelmina (33:15.63) By the way, I don't think she was supposed to be at work. think her time was, but yeah, yeah. Lauren (33:16.015) Yeah, I know. It was just an example, but yeah. Lauren (33:27.463) Yeah. Teri (33:31.618) Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (33:39.406) and you're not having a private conversation with your friends. Like you could have a private conversation and be like, I don't like her that much. Fine. Don't go on record with that. Like in the Hollywood world, don't go on record with that. That's absolutely. Vanessa (33:42.487) Right. Lauren (33:42.491) Right. Why go on? Teri (33:45.356) Don't get it. Yeah. That was purposeful. there's a saying, I'm trying to remember to teach my kids this, unless whatever you're saying, there's three checkpoints before something comes out of your mouth. Is it kind? Is it true? Is it necessary? And if you hit all three of those, have at it, right? Otherwise, what's the function of that, right? There is a function that Lauren (34:05.651) Is it necessary? Yeah. Teri (34:15.776) that producer making that and I was reading it, looks like she teaches at the college level and present. Yeah, she presented that. Yeah, she presented to her students saying, I watched this movie on the plane. I don't get it. Enlighten me. Interestingly, she also reported that her students had no feedback for her, which actually makes me think is more related to how she is as a professor. And then not wanting to be honest with her about their opinions of Sidney Sweeney, as opposed to them not having anything to contribute. Vanessa (34:20.878) Yeah. Uh huh. Uh huh. Lauren (34:21.208) right. That's right. Yes. That's when she was talking about it. Lauren (34:43.239) Right. Teri (34:45.815) So I do think that you have to think about the messenger and what the function is of the messenger sharing that particular message and what that sort of like when someone has a complaint or says something, oftentimes it says more about that person themselves than the thing they're sharing about or complaining about. And so does it have something more to do with that producer than it does Sydney screening? Wilhelmina (34:59.579) Mm-hmm. Lauren (35:01.681) Right. Right. Lauren (35:07.825) And I think that's where a lot of those mom comments come from online has more to do with it because I can't imagine commenting on some random celebrity mom who does something with an opinion. either keep it moving or like what she what she's posting, but like the idea that people comment with opinions on what she's feeding her kids or doing with her kids or whatever. That's just to your point. It's unnecessary. What's the purpose of Teri (35:10.922) Yes. Lauren (35:37.179) that and to me it points out more about insecurities within oneself for posting that than it does that person, the celebrity. Vanessa (35:41.742) Yeah, self esteem issues. Yeah. Wilhelmina (35:48.271) You know, Lauren, going back to what you were saying about the how do we, if we're all thinking this, you know, like is this woman slacking off and then making excuses? I think what we're looking at is really, we're talking about all of these industries for the most part are male, like dominated always. So the rules around it, the schedule around it, all of it, like. Lauren (35:53.8) Mm-hmm. Lauren (36:07.293) dominated. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's true. That's true. That's true. Vanessa (36:10.85) Yeah. Yeah. Wilhelmina (36:14.01) Why would a woman who is the primary caregiver, even if she's working, be expected to be there at eight o'clock when her kids don't go to school until eight thirty? You know, like, let's change the schedule. change. But you need, Terry, to your point, you need the third. You need that because then what you get are you have these rules that are old archaic rules that were created by men for men who usually have a Lauren (36:29.371) Women in leadership. Vanessa (36:30.188) Yes. huh. Wilhelmina (36:43.685) parent at or a co-parent at home. And now we're getting these women and the women to get to the top. Initially, you had to be basically like a man. You just had to do you to follow their rules, step in line. But now that's starting to change. And I think like, how do you can you do it without the third? I don't think you can. And then if you don't have that support, you're never going to get like the third to to make the change. So you need to have the third and then you need to have the support within that third to actually create like actual change that will benefit all women and Tide, raise it up. Lauren (37:25.061) Rising tides, yeah. And I think that's probably why, and I think we can all speak from personal experience, why there are so many females creating their own business, female entrepreneurs. Because guess what? We get to decide when we start and when we end and when we take the day off because we want to be in the mom mode versus when we don't. And there's certainly challenges, but overwhelmingly, I find it such a huge blessing. I'm so grateful that I'm able to do that. Wilhelmina (37:36.238) Yep, absolutely. Teri (37:37.43) Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (37:40.73) Mm-hmm. Vanessa (37:41.176) Yes. Wilhelmina (37:52.185) Me too. Teri (37:52.896) Same. Lauren (37:54.365) But that was motivated before I even had kids by this idea of looking, and it was probably really, I'm sure there was some of it that was conscious, but subconsciously looking at the nine to five typical structure of various careers and saying, that's not what I want. If I want to be able to do both, I want to be able to do it all. How can I make that happen? And for good, I think it pushed us all into a career in which we're our own boss. Vanessa (38:16.322) Mm-hmm. Vanessa (38:21.838) Well, I think psychology has now become a woman, right? Like there's more women than men in the field. Yeah. And I was looking at what are the benefits of having these kind of fields, industries where there are more women leadership and, you know, it's all positive outcomes. So it boosts confidence among women. It creates, you know, fostering mentorship between people. You see better pay. There's all these like positive benefits, but Teri (38:21.909) Absolutely. Teri (38:26.946) They call it the feminization of psychology. Lauren (38:36.199) Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (38:39.896) Mm-hmm. Vanessa (38:51.758) to what you're saying, Terry, it's not gonna happen unless there's more of us kind of spearheading the way for the rest of us to say, yeah, let's make these changes so that we can, as Wilhelmina brought up, balance the life expectations, right? It's very difficult to work full time, have kids, do all the things, and then living, these expectations are just not, they weren't created for a woman who is working and having kids, right? So we're all trying to. Lauren (39:06.643) Mm-hmm. Vanessa (39:21.176) figure it out and it's challenging. So the more we can support each other, the better the outcome. Wilhelmina (39:26.84) You know, sorry, go. Lauren (39:27.315) Absolutely. Teri (39:28.652) Well, I was just gonna say there's also this idea that underlies some of this, that women need to think about more and probably challenge is this idea of effortless perfectionism. And right, that's a term coined by a researcher at Stanford based on some research looking at sororities and sorority girls and how they would often engage in effortless perfectionism so that they're at surface level. Wilhelmina (39:41.114) Yes. Teri (39:55.181) high functioning, they always looked great, straight A's, et cetera. But underneath the surface, they were really struggling, sort of like a duck with the fins underneath the surface flapping. There was a tremendous amount of effort and stress going into making their lives look like they weren't putting effort and stress into everything they were accomplishing. And women, I think, oftentimes engage in a lot of that. this is just how I look, or this is just how my house looks. Lauren (40:03.547) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right. Lauren (40:22.483) Right. Teri (40:23.426) Oh, this is just how I'm managing my free time and my career. And when we don't share our true lived experiences about how we're managing things. And what I hear a lot in my practice is women who have great school age kids and younger are fantastic about commiserating with each other. What happens as their kids progress through adolescence is everybody stops sharing. And you hear that from a lot of moms. Once their kids are 14, 15, 16, the sharing stops. Wilhelmina (40:45.949) Lauren (40:46.343) Yeah. Vanessa (40:47.459) Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (40:52.57) Mm. Teri (40:52.619) and the effortless perfectionism related to how their kids, it actually translates from them to their kids because their kids are, what colleges are your kids applying to? Do they get their driver's license yet? Are they dating yet? Are they, there's all these sort of adolescent milestones that parents, and if their kids aren't hitting some of those, they feel like their kids are behind. And so you go from sharing everything, potty training, sleep training, et cetera. And it does sort of continue difficulties that your kids are having, but it really, Lauren (41:01.448) Right. Vanessa (41:07.672) Mm-hmm. Lauren (41:11.069) Right. Right. Teri (41:22.146) It's almost like a sieve where it really starts to decrease a lot when kids enter that. And I think women and moms especially would really benefit from that continued higher level of sharing through the teen years, which is really challenging just like they did when their kids were younger. But it's that effortless perfectionism. Vanessa (41:33.581) Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (41:33.881) Yes. Yes. my gosh. And especially considering like the age most women are hitting when you hit that part to have less support from their female friends and like, my God, like what a time. Well, let's promise that we're going to keep talking. I'm still sending texts like, okay, I need some help. Teri (41:46.242) Hmm? Teri (41:51.148) Yes, yes. Lauren (41:54.95) Yeah. Vanessa (41:55.294) Hahaha. Lauren (41:58.151) Right? Well, that's how we connect though. mean, and I think that that's probably to go back to what we are saying is to, know, young girls, you're already seeing this, because we connect through communication and social connectedness. And we are much more adept at recognizing nonverbal cues than men, boys, right? Women are just much more of a social communication, conversation creature and in the way that we connect. with one another. And so I think for good and bad, right, that's how we connect so we can use it for good and really lift each other up and support each other. Or we can use it to pit one another against each other. And that's some of the dynamics of what we see early on with girls, right, is they're utilizing it to kind of figure out their place, that Queen Bee syndrome, that their place within an elementary school setting. And unfortunately that does continue with young girls and adolescents. Vanessa (42:49.164) Bye. Lauren (42:56.179) The goal would be for us to shift that to your point, Wilhelmina and Terry, as we need more support, as women, perhaps our kids are going through changes or developmental milestones that are more challenging, that we kind of reverse that concept and just say, no, we're going to lift each other up as opposed to pit each other against each other. Wilhelmina (43:16.602) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Vanessa (43:17.358) I think one of you guys mentioned earlier about just making comments about people that you see. I think that that's also not supporting women. So I tried to be really mindful about those kind of negative thoughts that kind of pop up your head when you see something. And going back to, Terry, what you said to your son, and how is this what you're about to say. Right. And really thinking about, why do I think that? Why do I really need to comment? Lauren (43:24.787) Mm-hmm. Lauren (43:40.572) Is this helpful? Yeah. Wilhelmina (43:44.846) Okay. Vanessa (43:47.414) okay, that looks crazy, but is she bothering anybody? So I think even starting with those little, that person's never gonna know that you thought that or that you turned around and said something to your friend, but isn't that part of it? So why do we engage in those behaviors? Why do we feel the need to say something or comment on that? And so I think it can start even just small, like in our daily lives, like why do we feel the need to do that? Lauren (43:51.368) Rain. Lauren (43:55.379) Mm-hmm. Lauren (43:59.111) Mm-hmm. Lauren (44:10.579) Absolutely. Vanessa (44:13.644) And the more that you train your brain to focus on positive things, because we know that our brains naturally focus on negative things. It's part of how we evolved and survived, right? Like you're supposed to be aware of the things. And so it really does take effort to really focus on the positive things that are around you. And so I think that starting at that smaller level can then expand to kind of higher level supporting women. Lauren (44:21.137) right. Vanessa (44:41.542) if we just kind of focus on these little day-to-day interactions that we have with one another. Lauren (44:47.251) Yeah, absolutely. Teri (44:48.13) Mm-hmm. Vanessa (44:50.934) Any other thoughts on today's topic? Wilhelmina (44:55.471) I'd like to think that in 10 years, 15 years, if there's a group of women that are like, do we think women are supporting other women? I hope they answered differently than we did. Vanessa (45:04.736) Yes, completely agree. Yeah. And I think, you know, we, yeah, and I think we are much better than we were. But yeah, I think my goal and my hope too is that, that yeah, that at some point we can all turn around and say, yeah, we're doing a really good job at this because we become more aware of how important it is and that there's so many positive benefits of supporting one another. It's already hard enough. Right? Like Lauren (45:05.671) Yeah. I think we'll get there. Teri (45:06.08) Yeah, Lauren (45:12.691) Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (45:12.698) Mm-hmm. Wilhelmina (45:28.706) Yeah. Well. Lauren (45:28.957) Right. Right. Vanessa (45:30.99) It's already hard enough and then when we're not supporting each other, it becomes even harder, even more so than it is. It's already challenging for us. mean, we live in a man's world. We are! Lauren (45:37.053) We're dirtying it up. Yep. Why? Yeah. Yeah. Teri (45:39.554) Okay. Teri (45:43.564) We're doubling our suffering. Wilhelmina (45:43.631) Well, and that's it. I hope, I hope we can, I hope by doing this, we can actually create another world. Cause I don't think it's about having us fit into the man's world. I think it is about diversifying the world and then we can support because we're not gonna like, we're not gonna fit into that. We want our own world. And so I think that's the issue is like, we don't want to just support other women so we can all fit in, cram ourselves into this world. Lauren (45:56.199) Mm-mm. Vanessa (45:56.278) No. Yeah. Lauren (46:04.371) Great. Yeah. Wilhelmina (46:13.422) Like, no, that's not gonna work. Vanessa (46:13.56) Right, right, absolutely. Well, thank you for joining us today. We hope you join us next time on The Shrinkdown. Lauren (46:13.683) Yep. Love that.