Good morning, Grid Connections listeners.
We have an exciting story today that combines speed, endurance, and the cutting edge of EV technology.
Joining us today are the founders of the Electric Avenue newsletter, Janick Metzner and Julius Wilhelm.
Not only are these two experts in the EV space, but they recently set a new charging time record for the EV Cannonball and Elucidair.
That's right.
These two EV enthusiasts made a coast to coast journey.
Across the us and they're here today to share their experience on the road from navigating charging infrastructure to making history in the lucid
In this episode, we'll dive into how they plan this epic journey, discuss the differences in charging infrastructure between the U S and Europe, and hear what it was like to take
one of the most efficient EVs on the market for a long distance test.
Whether you're an EV road tripper or just curious about the state of electric vehicle charging, this episode has something for everyone.
Before we dive in, I encourage you to share this episode with at least one friend or fellow EV enthusiasts who enjoy this story as well.
And if you're loving what you hear, please leave us a positive review on our podcast page.
It really helps us bring more great content to listeners like you.
With that, enjoy.
Thank you, great to be here.
my pleasure.
So I guess let's kick it off.
for those who are listening, can you share a little bit about your background and then how you guys met and then we'll kind of get into the actual road trip.
Yeah.
I've been working in EV charging for about eight years.
I'm originally from Germany, but the last five years or so I've been in California, worked at Lucid Motors.
Now I'm with a startup called Pionix.
So always kind of approached it from like my main day job perspective, but I'm also just an EV enthusiast and nerd on the side.
And two years ago, Julius and I kind of started this newsletter together as a hobby.
that we publish like once a week where we just follow our own curiosity and write about topics.
So that's kind of how I got into the topic of UVs and then Julius.
Yes, I'm Julius and I also started working in the EV industry in Germany, in Munich in 2018.
And that's also where Janek and me met the first time.
And mainly I have been working in public charging, how to make that accessible and easy to pay for public charging.
And just recently I also started my own startup journey and trying to develop the EV charging market further.
No, I think this is what's going to be so great about today's conversation is both your guys, not only knowledge -based, but hands -on experience in the industry and kind of
approaching it from both sides.
Obviously, Yanni working at Lucid and then Julius, your own experience with EV charging and how that overlaps.
I guess for our listeners, given your guys' experience, I think before we get in the road trip, it would be kind of interesting to hear some of the things, maybe just in general,
that you...
going into this road trip that maybe you guys were aware of between the differences between charging infrastructure in North America and Europe or did that really go into the
planning for this trip at all?
Congratulations.
I think there's many things that I, for example, could only read about and not really knowing what I'm going to experience once we go into the trip.
Because unlike Janek, I didn't do a lot of road trips before in the US.
I did hear about, for example, the reliability issues, which are also a topic in Europe, but the discussion is much, let's say, hotter.
around the reliability topics in the US, for example.
On the other hand, for example, Janek and me, we also exchange frequently and ad hoc charging, having credit cards is much less common in Europe until recently.
Now there's a regulation in place that enforces all operators to offer credit card terminals at the charging stations.
But in the US, that has been, say, thing.
They have been installed right from the beginning.
So there were already some...
differences I was expecting about just from reading and discussing with Janek and other people.
Anything you want to add to that Janick or is that something?
yeah, I think having been in the market and having owned like a CCS EV for, for several years, I knew, you know, the difficulties that we have with public charging reliability in
the U S.
So I went into the trip, I think a lot more, cautious, cautiously optimistic about charging infrastructure reliability than, than Julius.
but I think, yeah, I don't know, Julius, I feel like
You heard from me that there are certain challenges, but then at the end of the trip, you kind of recap that it was like worse than you actually expected.
Is that fair to say?
Yeah, definitely.
think when we talk about the trip details, we will touch base on that, but maybe to tease up, we actually tried one charging station that was perfectly located on our way, but that
failed us completely, which led to us having one additional stop instead of six charging stops.
did seven stops on the charging journey and there were, for example, no alternatives at that locations.
that we could have used.
yeah, that made the conclusion for me that reliability is really a topic.
For sure.
I think it's really interesting.
You're talking about seven charging stops across the whole U .S.
I'm actually looking at doing another road trip.
That's about 2500 miles and even that or I am sorry closer to about 1800 2000 miles and even that I'm probably going to be charging seven times at least in my car as it is.
So let's let's talk about this.
So I guess for anyone listening who's unfamiliar the cannonball run is essentially you go from
Manhattan I believe the it's called the Red Ball garage in Manhattan, New York City and then you go to and I'm drawing a blank on the resort in LA but essentially right on the
beach there and It's the goal is just trying to get across the US as fast as possible.
There's been quite a few records set Obviously with combustion vehicles.
There's definitely with those It doesn't you can do some pretty quick math and realize
that speeds that are being done are definitely not of the legal variety to get some of these records.
But then obviously there's been the generation of electric vehicles doing this and how there's been all sorts of different strategies of do you try and hit as many just really
short trips.
And I believe before you guys, the record had been set by Kyle Connor in a Porsche Taycan, if I remember correctly.
There's been a few people that have done it in a couple of different vehicles, but
Yeah.
What, so what was kind of the genesis of this idea?
Like, was it kind of just joking around or what made you to decide you're like, okay, we're going to do the cannonball and we're going to try and do it in a lucid and some of
the strategy behind that.
I had followed the other records that had been set.
I think Kyle holds the record for a CCS car on the CCS charging network and a Porsche Taycan, like you said, and then Ryan from the kilowatts YouTube channel holds the record
in just any EV did a Tesla Model S long range in like 42 hours something.
But they each had between 17 to 20 charging stops because like you said, they stopped every one and half hours or so.
I was thinking about, there any other categories that we can do that showcase a little bit more efficiency and stay within the legal limits of the road?
And came up with this one with the charging stops.
So I told Julius about it.
He got excited about it as well.
We did a little bit more research.
We planned out some routes with a better route planner.
We actually saw that on the Guinness Book of World Records, similar categories of records had been set for crossing Canada, crossing the UK and crossing New Zealand.
But no one had really claimed or set a record for the US.
And we figured if we try and do it with the Lucid Air, which is the most capable passenger car at the moment in terms of efficiency and range, we might be able to set a record that
holds for a while.
Yeah, that's great.
And I know you had previously worked at Lucid.
Obviously that probably had a little bit to do with your kind of decision around it or what was it primarily just the total range or were there any other things that kind of
went into like, mean, looking at, Ryan's record using the S and obviously the supercharger network, were there any other kinds of things like, well, maybe we could do this or it
doesn't really matter what vehicle or what charge.
And we just want to get across the U S the fastest in whatever vehicle that there is.
So from the technical specifications, the Lucid Air Grand Touring, the vehicle that we used, is the most efficient vehicle with a comparable big battery.
So it has also the biggest range.
There's a configuration that has a little bit more range than the vehicle that we used.
And now they also brought out a new model update for 2025.
But technically, the Lucid Air Grand Touring is the most efficient, most suitable vehicle to set the record.
We also evaluated using the Tesla Model S and the Mercedes EQS.
But as I said, those are priority two and three for us.
And we were able to get a Lucid Air Granting Rented in Los Angeles.
So that has been the perfect fit for us.
That's great.
And so you said it was, I'm sorry.
What was that?
Yeah, just wanted to say we weren't sponsored by Lucid, so we were completely neutrally just looking at the market.
We ended up renting the car on Turo.
And yeah, like Julie said, we evaluated a bunch of other cars as well, but just kind of in this category of record, it is the most suitable vehicle.
And we were just lucky that we were able to get our hands on one because we don't own one.
And so the one you went with that was a 2022.
I can't remember what model year was it.
22 and 2 was 21 inch wheels.
19 inch wheels would be more suitable or efficient.
it was the Grand Touring trim.
So that model year has a 112 kilowatt hour battery.
And then Lucid just came up with the 25 model year, which has 118 kilowatt hours battery in the same trim level.
So it got even a little bit more capable.
And then I think they've added like a heat pump and a couple other just kind of smaller refinements to make it even more efficient.
So there's possibly room for doing another one here soon.
So we'll see.
But OK, so you find the lucid, you get to it.
And so I'm assuming you rent on tour or something similar.
Do you tell the owner what you're doing or is it just like, we're going to rent it and we're going to put some miles on it and just leave it at that.
This owner offered the option to pay for unlimited miles on the car for like an extra daily charge.
So that suited our use case quite well.
But in the end, we rented the car for quite a long time.
So there was some expectation that there was going to be a lot of miles put in the car.
And then we actually only drove it one way.
On the way back, we put the car on a truck and shipped it back.
So yeah.
Yeah, because technically I guess you guys did like the reverse cannibal.
You started in LA and then headed out to New York.
I mean, it's kind of tomato, tomato, but just traditionally, I know they had started, they start from New York.
So, okay.
We, get the car.
What is, I mean, that's, that's great.
That's huge, but obviously the biggest thing determining your ability to get across the country is going to be the charging and
Traditionally and I mean there's two points one is obviously the charging and then two is maximizing the efficiency of this vehicle and With traditional cannonballs.
I mean there's all sorts of things that people do they will have a car go ahead Maybe half an hour ahead of them speeding purposefully to like get police attention So that they
don't have to deal with getting pulled over they'll have radar.
They'll have all sorts of things I guess was that at all in your team's strategy or it sounds like it was just kind of you two in the car
trying to get there in the most efficient way, maybe not the most fast in some ways, even though that ironically kind of made it the most fast time for you guys.
So technically, didn't have those preparations needed since we didn't go for time.
And we only aim for the highest efficiency and the lowest amount of charging stops.
Janek already told we were able to stay within legal road limits.
Rather, we needed to ensure that we have the minimum speed on the interstates.
Yeah.
So our main preparations was really about what is the best route and what are the best locations for charging.
And that we were able to explore iteratively.
So we didn't knew kind of how far we can actually go with the Lucid if we stretch, we decrease our speed a little bit.
For example, reference consumption models on the better route planner.
That good or rather conservative for the Lucid air grantee ring, because probably not many people.
with that vehicle use a better route planner because usually you can, you need to take a break and you can then charge before the vehicle needs to recharge.
So we really on the route check then what is our state of charge?
How much miles do we have left?
Can we reach our stretch goal or do we need to use backup charging stations?
And that became also a little bit more of a challenge.
The further we got into the mid to the Midwest, because then the density of the charging locations got
fear and...
sure.
So it's interesting you mentioned you used a better route planner because I use that all the time and I agree with you.
Sometimes it's either a little on the conservative side or it's a little actually optimistic and sometimes it does take in a lot of variables.
So some of that has been my own driving speed.
I think it assumes you're going like 65 or something versus like where I've had to drive through Wyoming and Idaho it's 80 is the just speed limit and then you have people doing
five to ten over
So that obviously plays big into your efficiency.
with that where you it sounds like you guys had said you're going within speed limits, but I know on the video you guys had also mentioned are trying to shoot for like 60 65 is that
When is kind of that was the ideal speed and that's due to efficiency or what what kind of made that speed the ideal one for you guys?
We varied speeds a little bit, usually between 60 and 70.
Never really more than that because then the efficiency really falls off.
And most of the time I'd say we were at 65.
A better route planner actually lets you define the reference consumption at 65 and then also set a maximum speed limit that you go and takes into account the speed limit on the
route.
So it's actually, you can nerd out and get into all the settings and can get
Normally something out that's very accurate.
think one of the caveats with the lucid air is that that car doesn't have any telematics API that's open.
And it also doesn't have an OBD2 port so you can't plug in any telematics device.
So there's probably no one that can submit real world consumption data to a better route planner.
So they can't really improve their model.
So I think that's kind of what led to the model being probably more conservative than what we saw in the real world.
And that's why we really had to just plan stop to stop, know, pick out.
next charting stations that are between 350 and 450 miles from our last stop and then just see as we get closer which one can we make it to.
No, that's great.
And so, I mean, I know a better route planner technically has been acquired by Rivian.
Have you spoken with or know of any of the team at a better route planner to share some of this feedback?
Not yet, maybe in the future, but now at the moment we're just an enthusiastic user of the product and happy that it seems also to get updates also after the acquisition from
Rivian, which is good.
No, like I said, I use it almost daily myself.
I'm a big fan and you're right.
You can get all sorts of crazy settings.
I think where I sometimes, I don't wanna say struggle, but the issue I have is obviously where I live, we have winter tires.
So you wanna save one version that's like the standard, then you have winter tires and just trying to have the, and it's not really even their fault, just always trying to
figure out what the most accurate version of that efficiency is gonna be.
It can be a bit of a stretch, but no, I spend way too much time.
I do.
API connection, yeah, okay.
I've used that.
I've done, I did it for quite a while without it.
And then I've recently kind of added it to it.
And that is, it's interesting.
I wouldn't say it's like a night and day difference when I kind of got some of these other things dialed in.
I just knew what my efficiency was going to be more like with winter tires.
And in the end of the day, I'm running 19 inch winter tires that are non -studded.
And so the biggest difference generally isn't even
tires I've noticed in the end it is just it's gonna be a lot colder out and so you're dealing with that air density and efficiency side of it but yeah I guess that'd be an
interesting thing to talk with you guys too I mean when you did it it was pretty much all sunny the whole way or what what was the weather like
Yeah, it sunny and hot.
was, I think, plus a lot of the days that we went.
And yeah, we usually set the AC to about 78.
So we were still comfortable, but a little higher than most people set their AC.
But yeah.
ventilated seats made it a little bit more comfortable, I think, at that temperature.
nice that it helps.
Yeah, no, I'm such a big fan of that.
And it's crazy, especially on a road trip.
I think a lot of people are saying about massaging sheets and I'm sure that's great and all.
I've never been that big of a fan of them.
Some people swear by them, but I've just noticed how much of a difference just having that kind of air, kind of like breathability makes just, especially once you're getting like
around mile 800, 900 in a day, it just, makes such a difference in just your driving experience.
So.
are dangerous because they relax you and make you more tired after like six hours of driving.
Fair.
was a big fan on the third and fourth day, once the back started hurting after all the driving.
Yeah, they're great in the passenger seat if you want to just pass out and now.
Yeah.
Fair.
No, that's a good point.
So, okay.
We've kind of talked about the planning.
Let's talk about, actually kicking off the trip and just how that went.
And once you were on the road, you were probably still kind of checking with a better route planner and, maybe Google maps or some other thing for traffic conditions.
But what, did getting in the car and just getting on the road look like for you guys?
So as we started in Los Angeles and we needed to avoid the big traffic in the morning on Friday morning, we started at like 5 .30 leaving the hotel and then recharging the last
percentage at the EVgo station right or close to the Portofino Hotel, which is the official starting point kind of.
And then we left after some recording at 6 a in the morning and
went out and luckily we were early enough so traffic wasn't really bad for us and we were in Las Vegas already midday I think.
And I think then, yeah.
in Vegas, were also before, we crossed Vegas before rush hour as well.
we kind of crossed both major metropolitan areas in the first day without hitting traffic.
that was great.
Yeah, that's huge.
I mean, with that, were you seeing pretty open chargers once you had a charge or how was that looking like?
So once we were on the road, we switched more towards Plugshare, just because the database, as compared to a better root planner, a little bit more complete, has a bit of a
better coverage.
And for us, really important was also having the reviews of the people and the users and to know about when was the last successful plug -in.
and what is the reliability at the station that we can expect.
We didn't struggle with any like wait times.
Even so, the first station in Utah that was an Electro -America station, once we arrived, it was quite empty.
But after we came back to the car, there was actually a line of four EVs charging.
So a lot of EVs out there in Utah charging.
But for the rest of the trip, waiting times hasn't been a topic for us.
So it was mainly about where are the stations located and are they functional?
Can we access the station?
Yeah.
And it seemed like with your video, you, obviously getting out of LA and Vegas and avoiding the rush hour, what's it kind of the big thing.
then once you get past that, at least even in my experience, just the more you had ease, the less of an issue it is, but, really around just getting kind of off peak times always
helps, but especially getting out of the Southwest.
So
In New York, then the traffic picked up again, like before arriving in New York City, then it got more dense and dense, but we didn't have big traffic chams.
I think only in the Lincoln tunnel or something like that.
Yes.
The first time I ever went to LA, or LA, New York City, I had gone on a flight.
It was a five hour flight.
I think it was even slightly delayed.
I get there and we go through the Lincoln Tunnel and there was some sort of accident.
I'm stuck in this Uber and I feel so bad for the Uber driver because he was literally telling me right as I get in, like, you're my last one for the night.
I decided to pick you up and then I'm going to go see my kid.
All this stuff.
Well, we get stuck in the tunnel and we're in traffic for almost as long.
I'm in the backseat of this thing for almost as long as my flight from Portland to New York City was.
Admittedly, I'm just on my phone, just kind of hanging out.
Unfortunately, I to use the bathroom when we landed, but I felt so bad for the guy.
does that increase the Uber price because it's by the minute or as a fixed price?
yeah, was, it did increase, but fortunately, it was a business trip.
So I wasn't paying it either way.
but yeah, I know exactly.
It was, it's, can get you.
And that was random.
Cause that was like a Sunday night.
It was pretty much the absolute time.
It shouldn't be bad, but, no, I've been caught in that tunnel a few times.
So, okay.
So you.
take this first charge and now you're on the road, you're seeing the car is getting a bit more efficiency.
What are some of the things that you're noticing maybe as you're driving that's having like the biggest impact?
Is it really just the speed or were there other kind of little things that you were guys now starting to kind of dial in and get the car going as far as it could on a charge?
We tried to optimize for everything.
So we reduced the screen brightness of the infotainment.
We put the AC temperature higher.
At some point we started trying to draft a little bit behind trucks, usually towards the end of a leg when we tried to make it to our stretch goal charging stations.
The night before we had put a lot of air in the tires.
Yeah, I think those are the main optimizations.
yeah, and then lastly, we also didn't use the lucid navigation system because we didn't want the vehicle to preheat the battery.
That would also, I mean, the navigation system wouldn't lead us to the stretch goal anyway, because we tried to go for one or 0 % arrival, state of charge.
And we didn't want the car to preheat the battery to not lose the energy.
So did you find, well the interesting thing too is with the time of year you guys are doing it, it's so warm out anyway that it's not really gonna be as big an issue like
especially in the winter.
So there really is not as big a reason to use the preheating.
And we didn't want to, like we didn't optimize for the shortest driving and charging time.
So we didn't care too much if it's like, we even got at one point, I think 295 kilowatt, but we didn't care if the vehicle is charging at its maximum rate.
Gotcha, gotcha.
So now you're starting to kind of run into these chargers and use them.
What were you noticing?
Because what I thought was really cool is you just use just about every major brand of charger there is out there.
Everything from Electrify America to Tesla to Chargepoint.
What did you guys notice kind of dealing with the different charging infrastructure in your experience with that?
So I think it was quite unplanned that we put in a big variety of chargement operators in our route.
It just happened because they have had the best location to stretch out each rack.
I think there hasn't been, I have to think about the big difference.
I wouldn't say that they.
are different in terms of are they better located to the interstate or less close proximity to the interstate, which you usually see, for example, in Germany that there
some operators that are at the highway.
And then others, for example, Tesla, is not that many times at the highway itself, but you need to go out at an exit because the locations are just cheaper to acquire.
do you see any major difference
except from branding and maybe the hardware they have been using.
Another difference was the amount of chargers.
So, you know, there's a site in the middle there that caused us a lot of issues because it only had one charger and that charger failed on us.
Another site that we hit only had two chargers of which one was broken.
So ideally when we do these road trips in our normal life, we try to hit a site that has at least four fast chargers or something if we have our pick.
But in this scenario, we didn't have that.
For us it was more important to pick the ideal charger in terms of miles distance versus the one that has the best plug share rating or has the most amount of backup chargers.
Yeah.
And also if you like really go for speed, you're pretty much left with Electro Fire America because none, except from the EV GM Energy EV Go station, they were always like, I
think 150 kilowatt max and only Electro Fire America offers the 250 kilowatt.
So that's why I think you see many people going on road trips reporting about Electro Fire America because just if you want to optimize for the
a shortest charging time, that's your preferred choice or the only choice left especially in between.
too was it really was for a long time just them and the supercharging network that were cross country that you could just have one, especially on some of the interstates for a
long time.
Now you're starting to see that with the EVGO and kind of GM partnership, which is great.
But even then that's still kind of like almost divided by the I think that's the Missouri River.
There's so many on like the eastern half of the US, but kind of on the west side and then.
especially middle America, you start running out of that charger density.
So you roll up to one and it's almost, well, it sounds like it fails you completely.
Are you at like zero or 1 % when that happens?
What's going to go through your minds when you get to this one?
Yeah.
So there was a station in Colorado shortly before Nebraska.
That was just the ideal one for us in terms of, in terms of miles.
And it was a single free wire boost charger battery power behind some very rural gas station with very little other infrastructure around.
And it was in the afternoon.
It was very hot outside over a hundred and we plugged in, got the station to work.
walked away trying to get lunch and just out of fear and a habit checked the mobile app to see if the station was still running and the session had stopped.
So we walked back.
I think at this point we had gotten, we arrived at 0%.
We had gotten maybe to 10 or 15 % state of charge and we weren't able to reinitiate a session really.
Or we tried three times on both cables that the charger had.
It was very hard at that point.
Our GoPro and our iPhones kept crashing because of the heat.
So it was hard to even document.
And we think the station just overheated because it would start charging, deliver like 0 .1 kilowatt hours and immediately stop charging.
the next station was the Electrify America site in Ogallala, Nebraska, which was about 50 miles away.
So we just about had enough energy to go there.
it had failed on us earlier, we would have had to either wait until later in the day until hopefully the heat.
goes down if that was the actual issue, or we would have to get towed.
I'm not sure what the issue actually was.
I don't know if it was maybe something else, but presumably the heat plate effector.
Yeah, I do know, I mean, I know this is also improved, but one of the areas the Lucid has had issues with is sometimes charger compatibility.
And do you feel like that's something you ran into at all?
I mean, part of its efficiency is it has this really high pack voltage, but then part of what kind of works against it at charging is it has this really high pack voltage.
And I'm kind of curious if that kind of played, how much that played into your strategy and then how much that played into your experience on the road, you think?
Because of that fact, and we were aware about it, we also wrote an article in our newsletter about it.
We excluded the Tesla network from the beginning because the Tesla network is limited to 400 or 500 volts.
As you said, the Lucid has a voltage range of around 800 volts.
So at those stations, we get like 50 kilowatt max.
But still, the free wire station was also a limiting factor there because it also supports only
for 500 volt.
So that came on top to the board session that we already knew that we will be charging here for three hours probably because of the lower charging power that we are getting.
But except from Tesla and that free wire boost charging stations, most charging stations support up to 1 ,000 volts.
So that isn't a problem so much for the Lucid.
Yeah, I think in terms of interoperability, think a lot of car brands have issues with certain chargers, often like the more obscure chargers that just have less deployments.
you know, a lower priority in interoperability testing and sometimes that leads to issues.
We were a little bit worried about that.
Like when we rolled up to the tritium station and it didn't work at first, there's a moment in the video where I...
suspect that it might be an incompatibility.
then on second, I think first we tried with credit cards, second try was with the app and then it suddenly worked.
So in the end, I don't think we had any charging interoperability issues.
It was usually more reliability.
So in your experience having kind of charged in the US and now in Europe, would you say the reliability and this kind of interoperability issue is still similar in Europe or is
it much more just kind of plug in and forget it?
I wouldn't say it's plug -in and forget it.
So there are also reliability issues in Europe, but the discussion is not that much centered.
I have the feeling that in the US, it's really reliability is the core issue in charging, in EV charging.
While in Europe, reliability is also a topic, but there are other topics as well, especially when it comes to like in Germany, for example,
public charging is much more expensive.
So people that can't charge at home or at the work that are dependent on public charging, it's not really an option to switch to EVs.
So there's other topics as well that the industry is fighting with, let's put it that way.
And also from the personal experience now charging the S, I got much more worried about having a session stopped while we are away getting lunch.
big problem of ours was that we rented the vehicle, so we didn't have the vehicle app access.
So we tried to start the charging sessions with the app of the chargement operators, because that's the only way that we get remote information from the charging session.
Yeah, that's actually a really good point because I need to do this again.
But the trip I've done out to specifically Iowa a couple times along I 80 and I 90.
I there were sometimes there'd be like an EA charger or something that would charge faster, but repeatedly.
cause it might be like a level two or a version two superchargers.
So like tops out at one 50, but there'd be a EA.
So, know what?
I'll give it a try.
And I just found repeatedly that between not just how long it, even though I had like the app downloaded, I had all my information just like to get the difference between just
plugging and walking away and then getting it all figured out and working, eight into so much of that time difference.
And then, both times.
I would walk away and I fortunately had the app and so I would just get a notification, like five minutes into it that it failed or it stopped.
And both times, now I don't want to be such a hater because it's obviously improved.
I've talked to a lot of people about this, but I would then go back to the charger and instead of getting 350, obviously I couldn't get that much.
could do like 250, but I would get it would now it would either be inoperable or the other time it just topped out at 50 kilowatts.
And that was just like such a big experience.
like, okay, I've got enough anyway.
I'm just going to go the next one.
And it's kind of interesting.
I'm sorry.
out non -tesla chargers with your tesla for the thrill of it or was it really the best station in the moment for you?
both, just because where I was at, there were, was, in South Dakota, there's pretty much just a straight shot of all of just V2 chargers.
And so, there were a couple of times where I could just go in a year and I was like, well, this will give me up at least a two 15.
That should make a bit of a difference, but, between just trying to get the thing to actually start charging and then.
the issues I ended up having.
was just consistently, even though it kind of annoyed me because it took a little bit more time, it was just so much more, it was much more worth it just to just go to the version
two supercharger and charge at the slower speed than deal with a third party.
And EA has definitely gone better.
The other interesting part of it too to me was one, just to have that opportunity to test the charger, but.
Two was the price.
Consistently the Tesla chargers were a lot cheaper and I even had the EA electrify pass where you pay a few bucks and it comes down and even then it was still more expensive to
charge on the EA ones I found.
And so like by the second or third one I had done on that trip and it failed me and I just had wasted so much time.
I just said, screw it.
I'm going to deal with the, the Tesla ones and not even deal with it.
but I, I don't want to hate on it I do know a couple of people who have done that trip, that route specifically recently and had a much better experience.
so it's good to see that they're improving, but it is one those things that, especially when you're trying to cover miles, you're just like, okay.
This is the plan on paper.
In theory, this should work a lot faster and be the ideal thing.
But just in practice, you realize now I'm just going to go to the slower charger and it'll work.
It'll be done.
You can do flawless runs on CCS infrastructure sometimes, but I would say the average experience is probably there's a little bit more anxiety involved in using that CCS
infrastructure because the user flows are different, the payment flows are different, and the reliability is a little bit different.
Yeah.
And one of the big things I always tell people is like for a new technology to be successful, it doesn't have to be just as good.
It has to be better than the existing technology.
And I think whether it's Tesla's form of it or like plug and charge, that's literally the most ideal thing.
You just plug it in and walk away.
That's better than gas where you have to still swipe a card.
It's simple, but it's still that where it's like this.
You just plug in and walk away and
You don't need to remember the zip code.
Exactly.
And so it just, makes one, not just a better experience, but two, it makes it so that, yeah, you just don't have to deal with all this.
Will it work?
And the, the downside of the plugin charge thing is obviously then it's not just on having a charger that can accept it, but then having a vehicle that has that built in and,
I guess that was just a really long -winded way of me to say that it does make a big difference and it can be a critical difference by having that app access to your car so
you do get those notifications.
And I think it was really smart what you guys were doing by having at least the charger app where possible to kind of give you those updates because it's just really frustrating
to plug it in.
deal with everything, which I mean, in the scheme of things, that's a first world problem.
It's not that much work, but just to get it going and then for it to fail like so quickly is just so frustrating.
Yeah.
And to point it out, mean, yes, it's kind of somewhat of convenience problem, but at the same time, the industry needs to mature and tackle those problems to make EVs accessible
to masters because like most of my friends, they don't want to bother with that.
We are fascinated and interested about it and we can do it out of it.
And to be honest, that's also a little bit the experience.
We also cover it with our video, but most people don't want to have that experience.
EV charging just needs to work.
No, I'm 100 % with you.
mean, it's for something for me, it's really fascinating.
But for my mom, know like I can download all the apps and do all that stuff and she'd be lost in the dust by just having to download an app.
And until it's just that simple where it's just like you put in your payment info in the car once and then you can walk away.
There's still a big hurdle for others in the space.
And both kind of issues that were inhibiting us with the Lucid, which was like some of the charge point operators just didn't give us the option to remotely monitor the session.
And we didn't have access to the companion app of the vehicle because it was a rental.
Tesla is really thinking about those and solving those because you can, with the Tesla Hertz collaboration, you can just scan a QR code in the Tesla that you rent from Hertz and
you have like a temporary companion app on your phone so you can monitor the session.
Plus there's the Tesla automatic payment integration where you just plug the rental car in and it gets built to your Hertz account at the end through a Tesla Hertz integration.
So they're really thinking about making it seamless even for this kind of niche use case of a rental car where other companies still have a long way to go.
Yeah, I mean, that kind of reminds me of another thing too, where kind of different, but a friend of mine let me borrow their Tesla the other day to go do an errand I had to run.
And they just did it through the app.
So I get in the car and they also had a Model Y.
I sit in it and I would not know, everything just goes exactly to how I have my settings in my car, even to the point that it literally started playing the same song I've been
listening to on Apple Music.
in that car, like the instant I get in.
I know like Rivian and others are doing, are trying to get there.
But yeah, it still is kind of like really impressive experience for the end user to just have that kind of simplicity.
I think that is what's really cool about Tesla, Rivian, and I think to an extent Lucid.
I'd say they're a little further behind, but they're definitely taking that same kind of approach to really try and personalize and make a really standard experience for the
driver, even if you guys didn't have the app access, unfortunately.
But yeah, so.
We're kind of by the end of the first day.
You guys had, how far had you guys gotten?
think we did cross then, we crossed into Utah.
That's where we took our first charging session.
And then at like midnight, we arrived in Colorado, a WorldBox Starbucks charger.
And that's where also we kind of arrived with 0 % state of charge and then did an extensive late dinner and charged up to 97%.
So yeah, I guess that brings up my next question.
So you're kind of getting to the end of the first night.
What was the strategy for like sleeping and staying rested to just keep going through all of this?
So also that we didn't plan really ahead because we didn't know like how exhaustive it is to drive and how kind of tired we are getting and how good we can sleep in a car.
So we tried to drive as long as possible, but we also figured out and kudos to the people that go for like the 42, 43 hours doing it in one stretch.
It's really exhausting in my opinion, but because we knew that we will take much more time for the total trip.
And it's not really hurting us that much if we get a proper rest and also mitigating the dangers of falling asleep while driving.
That we tried to go into a hotel at between, I think the latest was 4 a in the morning and the earlier ones was like 1 .30 and then sleep for five to seven hours.
We didn't charge the car while we were in the hotel because the break was just too short to make a significant...
significant advantage for the trip because it would count as an additional charging stop.
That's why we relied on the DC charging stations.
No, I think that's a good way to do it when you're trying to do like across the country.
I mean, it's a safe way to do it one, but two, then I think there'd be a lot of issues with people like, well, you're AC charging and it's not quite the same, but I am such
personally such a big fan of AC charging because that really does make the difference.
I find very few people actually will drive more than like five to 800, like 600 miles a day is a lot for most people.
And
I'm a weirdo that'll do like anywhere from 800 to 1200.
And even then you just really, is so crucial to have that overnight AC charging at a hotel too, because then that next day you can just start with a full battery and get a real good
chunk going in that first run.
Let alone with a car like Elusa that yeah, then you can go pretty much the whole day close to without ever even having to charge it.
It would be great if more hotels build out AC infrastructure, definitely.
And if there were easy ways to filter for it and all the major booking sites.
Yeah.
We actually had Steve Burkett on from Plug and Play EV a couple of weeks ago and he was talking about his road trip across the US and how, even in my own experience, it's kind of
a, especially for AC charging in hotels, a bit of a desert.
You have to kind of reel, if you're going to do that, you have to plan in advance which hotel you're going to go to and then use PlugShare to verify if the system is up or still
running.
So you get to Colorado on the first night.
What does the second day look like for you guys?
second day was what we already touched on a little bit.
so we left grand junction, Colorado and made it through Denver.
And then by the afternoon we hit that free wire charger.
that kind of gave us a lot of trouble.
so we got, you know, 10, 15 % out of that one, which is just enough to make the 50 mile stretch to the next fast charger, which was the electric America station in Nebraska.
so we arrived there.
I had some lunch at Subway and charged to 98 % again or something like that and then continued on.
And I don't remember what we spent the second night.
Do you remember?
I'm it at Iowa.
Yeah, it was.
So at that evening night, we were heading for a station at a dealer because that was the best located station.
But it was then like Sunday morning and we were already reading that there were problems in plug share.
And then we called it a night, stayed in the hotel and in the morning we actually called the operator, the customer support hotline.
and wanted to verify if we can access the station.
then luckily, the person on the line was really helpful.
And he also reported that there was a file notice that there is service and it was like nine days ago and there hasn't been a charging session happening on that station since
then.
So we said that this is too risky and there wouldn't have been any backup stations close to that station.
So we...
charged at a, I think it was Mid -American Energy Station earlier.
So we didn't do the full stretch.
We usually aim for 400 miles per recharge.
And at that stretch, we only made 370 miles.
impressive.
all in all you guys did it in three days correct?
Four days actually.
So we started Friday morning, in the early morning and arrived at I think 6 p in New York on Monday.
And then you guys kind of mentioned that you ran into some traffic going into New York, but were there any other things that kind of came up in the final two days of that trip or
just, seemed like then you kind of knew what you were looking for and what to avoid when it came to the chargers, right?
I think on the second last stop, had the issues Janick mentioned already with the authorization.
So the payment didn't work.
still didn't, it was a Tretheum charger.
Also, I think quite interesting because there are not so many installed in the US I've heard.
In the US they're quite common because Ionity, for example, deployed them early on.
It's like the Electify America in Europe.
And there we had some issues, but luckily there was a
I'd say there were two stations, each with two charge points.
So we were able to charge at that one.
And I think the last stop was the most pleasant one.
It was a Navy funded site.
It had a roof.
It has a nice lighting.
We arrived there at like 4 AM in the morning.
And it was a little bit rainy.
it was also the first way.
It was the only time it rained, But then the roof was really practical.
That was a really pleasant trip and there we have our charging stop and we have had the peak was like 295 kilowatts.
Yeah, I I'm a big fan of canopies over charging locations.
Even when it's sunny, it's really nice because it just keeps the chargers cooler than getting out of the car.
It's so much cooler.
It just, yeah, I get that it's a bigger expense, but it's definitely something I hope to see on more and more chargers.
And heat is definitely a problem for the Chargers.
think in total, in the recap, would say that heat is probably one of the biggest enemy during those trips because most struggles we were having were related to heat at that
trip.
And the canopies can help.
Alternatively, we could also, let's say, replan our route to not charge during lunchtime or in those peak heat times.
that will also mitigate that risk a little bit.
interesting.
It also helps with keeping the car cool.
Cause one of the stops we were, know, in the 97, 96 % range, the car was only charging with, I don't know, eight kilowatts, but it was like, it showed like 115 or something.
So the AC was working really hard to keep the car cool.
So it was probably wasting all, you know, the same energy was getting.
So we weren't really like increasing an SOC anymore, but if you had a canopy, maybe the AC didn't have to work so hard and you could.
max out the battery a little bit more, but we never actually managed to charge to 100%.
I think the highest we did was like 99.
I think we got to 100 % on the last stop because we left actually something I would usually not do, but we left the Lucid at the charging station, was the GM energy station
and went to the hotel, slept for five hours at that night, came back in the morning and then of course it was charged 100%.
We made sure that they didn't charge idle fees at that location.
And we didn't get a feel for that there was, that we would be blocking anyone like in the middle of the night.
The capacity was more than the EVs charging there.
Right, right, All right, so then you get past that.
You get to New York.
You guys just, take it, do you go to hotel and immediately crash?
Or what did you do once you finally got to New York to celebrate or sleep?
yeah, we actually went to dinner with, one of our sponsors, S 44.
They're based in New Jersey and their CEO invited us to dinner with some of the team in Manhattan to celebrate.
So that was great.
and then did we go to the revel site the same night still?
Yes, also went to the, because we didn't have enough of charging.
No, we arrived with like, again, with a not really high set of charge and we needed to recharge the vehicle before we leave for the night.
It's not healthy for the battery.
So we went to a reveled site and also was quite interesting experience because there were, it was like midnight already and there were...
Revell vehicles and Uber vehicles coming in and out all the time.
Like I have never seen that high utilization at any site.
I think that like 25 charging stations there.
impressive what has been going on there.
Yeah, that's definitely been a conversation in general.
We've had a lot on this podcast and just talking to others about, especially in very dense city centers, trying to figure out what that balance is for essentially commercial use.
There are a lot of rideshare drivers that probably can't charge at home.
And so they go to a lot of these stalls.
I think that's where, especially here in the U .S., like when we had...
There's a big story coming in Chicago during the winter and how all these people, were lines and stuff to charge.
And a big part of that is so many of those people charging were actually just like Uber drivers and others.
And that's definitely something that needs to get solved.
But I still haven't been to a Revel charger yet, but it does seem like that is kind of the model to hopefully solve that problem.
Definitely interesting business case for any CPO offering urban fast charging.
A few years ago, nobody built fast charging hubs in cities.
Everybody was focused on the highways, interstates.
But I think it really wants to make a profitable case, the urban stations and being attractive for ride hailing drivers and taxis, but also maybe delivery bands is really
interesting.
So you get there, you go to Revel, you have dinner.
Where'd you, I guess, I'm curious now.
I used to go to Manhattan for work a lot.
Where'd you guys go to dinner?
It was an Italian restaurant.
I can't remember from the top of my head.
It was not far away from Red Ball Garage.
So it was like five or 10 minutes.
And then after the dinner, we went to Revil Station.
There are a lot of amazing Italian places in New York, no question.
So I'm sure wherever it was was good.
So yeah, you do that.
And then you guys have the car shipped back, correct?
So how'd you guys get home then?
Yeah, Julius was...
I was basically arriving home at that moment.
I came to the US because of private reasons.
So I stayed in New York and also made sure that the car is loaded to the truck once the driver was picking it up, I think two days later.
And Janik needed to fly out again to San Diego.
Yeah, I flew back on Tuesday, left the car in the keys with Julius and he was staying a couple of weeks in New York and in Brooklyn.
So he was able to stick around, you know, because we, by the time we arrived in New York, we didn't have a carrier assigned yet.
like truck broker was still trying to get someone to do the job.
And then luckily two days later, someone, someone picked up the job and then, so I flew back on Tuesday and the Sunday of that week, the truck arrived.
with me, I live in San Diego, and then I drove it up same day to LA and returned it.
you.
So I mean I think we've already discussed a lot of the different things that stood out to you but I guess to recap after completing it what were some of the high level or things
that really stood out to you after the trip?
think the biggest thing that we wanted to also prove a little bit was we have the technology to make those long distance trips.
We have really efficient vehicles that are suitable for long distance trips that a few years ago, it was an adventure to go for a few miles out of the city.
Janek and me joked around that we drove, for example, in I3 in Munich and there's like from Munich to Lake Garda, it's like three hours of driving.
And that was already a gamble.
It was like a long distance trip.
And with Delucid, that's like nothing.
And we have the technology there.
We need more charging locations, certainly.
But even today, we can make those coast to coast trips, which is incredible, I think.
Yeah.
And the technology needs to kind of trickle down to the more affordable price range, where the mass market really is.
yeah, independent of price, the Lucid just eats miles.
We were going six hours between needed charging stops, which was way longer than we wanted to drive.
So we had to do bio breaks to use the restroom, get some food and snacks.
And yeah, it's just really impressive what this car can do.
It's longer range than some gas cars have.
Right, right, actually quite a few.
So when you say things that need to trickle down, where do you see it being?
it mostly the, I mean...
There's a lot of really cool things about the Lucid.
has a one.
does have just a big battery.
I mean, the top of line one is almost 120.
It's 118 kilowatt hours, which is a really big battery.
It's obviously really efficient.
And then it also charges at a really high speed a lot of the time.
So what what do you guys think are the big things that you would like to see more of that?
And what do you think's maybe the most realistic price wise to kind of come down to more vehicles?
I think from a manufacturer point of view, it's quite interesting.
you increase efficiency, you don't need to put in a big battery pack.
And that can make EVs more affordable.
So of course, it is more attractive to launch vehicles in the premium segments.
Having SUVs, it's more comfortable for the people.
So naturally, they are a little bit less efficient.
But if we go to the mid -sized vehicle segment,
We have much more sedans and there you can also work with smaller batteries, but still have an electric vehicle, which is not like only the second household vehicle for the
commute, but where you can also comfortably go to vacation.
So I think the efficiency is something that BMW initially approved with the i3 can be done.
Maybe with fancy materials that have been used, which are not nice for mass production, but
I think efficiency is something really important for every manufacturer, because then you're safe on the battery.
Yeah, I'm curious where we will end up with like, what is the sweet spot of, of range that people actually need where they're comfortable that this is not my second car.
This is my main or my only car where every use case that I have from daily commuting to visiting the in -laws on Thanksgiving or Christmas in like peak traffic.
I feel confident enough that it's enough range, and that the charging infrastructure is good enough.
that it just meets all my use case needs.
I don't know where that actually will end up.
Of course, it's always better to have more range.
So if my seven -seater SUV can have as much range as the Lucid Air, and it's still affordable, that's great.
But I don't know if we really need that much.
And then you can also compensate battery size with charging speed if you have trust and density of charging infrastructure.
Because naturally people need to take a bio break and we try to stretch each leg.
If you would take like normal speed and charge whenever we need to take a bio break, go to restroom and also get something to eat, we wouldn't need the big battery of the lucid air.
So in that time,
you would expect that the first thing you do is you plug in your vehicle, you take your thing, do your activities and then get back.
And once you unplug your vehicle, you need to have 80 % of charge and you are good to go for another three hours of drive.
And whatever that size of battery is, it depends a little bit on the efficiency of the vehicle, but I think that would be my best spec.
You have a long range model?
Why?
Yeah, it's a all wheel drive long range, which I'm not exactly sure what the battery size is.
They say it's like 82 kilowatt hours.
I don't think I've ever really come close to that.
think it's closer to 70.
always.
don't get me wrong, it's a really good vehicle.
I've definitely noticed when I'm road tripping with my wife, and especially if we have the dogs,
The charging isn't as much of an issue because she usually has to get up and do something or the dogs need to go for a bathroom break.
And so it's not bad.
But I definitely would not say no to about 30 percent more range and about like 30 percent less charging.
And I think allegedly there's this new model Y coming out that.
kind of gets close to that.
So I'm going to, I'm very curious to see that.
And I mean, it's kind of funny.
You mentioned the battery pack and everything and efficiency.
Cause if you, think in America, it's a little bit different, but I think, I think realistically a car should have like 300 real world highway, 300 miles driving range.
Like that's a lot of cars claim they do, but like when you put them on the highway, it's not quite that.
And so I think if you can get like 300, that's good.
And we're kind of there.
And I think over the next year or two, that'll become pretty much the norm.
And then I think the next stretch goal would be like, if you can have 400 miles, it's like what 400 miles at highway.
It's pretty much there's no longer like really an argument.
And I completely agree with what you guys say about infrastructure.
And I know that sounds kind of absurd, but, lucid claims now admittedly.
That's like if you're doing the right speeds and everything, but they claim that their new ones are about like five miles per kilowatt hour.
And if more, like you're saying it, more EV companies can get closer to that, then you only need an 80 kilowatt.
mean, it's still a decent size pack, but then you only need an 80 kilowatt hour pack and you can go 400 miles.
there's, and it still, it's crazy to me how far it's come in a decade.
since like driving a model S in 2013 versus like what
is now capable, not just even between charging and charging availability, but then also like that pack goes in my model Y is smaller and goes farther than that thing ever did.
And so I am definitely hopeful and I think we are pretty much at that point already, but within I think the next few years and especially with some of the things that Lucid's even
talking about bringing kind of a lower priced car to market Rivian's kind of talking about that.
They're still expensive, but they are
There's definitely a path to like this being pretty unstoppable and a pretty practical option, which I think there already is.
I think it's much more so if you own your own home or you can charge either at work or at your house.
The argument pretty quickly makes it pretty easy to have a one car EV.
But I think once you get to that solid 300 plus mile range and charging becomes more prevalent than it really is.
kind of inevitable.
Some of it is a little bit of price, but we're so close already.
There's one other argument for having those ranges in terms of battery size and charging speeds.
You're becoming much less dependent on public charging infrastructure.
And that is going to become an issue, in my opinion.
And if you have peak times that you get to the point where you need to queue at a charging station with higher charging speed on the infrastructure and on the vehicles, you also
have a higher throughput.
Right.
means you have also much lower need for charging infrastructure.
Once we got to a state where more vehicles are on road.
But no, I agree with you.
Like I think it is a little annoying to me that I see so many of the American specifically to call them out.
Evie maker, like I get that there's a difference between obviously the peak charge rate and then like the kind of constant charge rate.
But it does still seem silly to me.
So many of them like top out 150.
And I
you benchmark them usually if you look at them?
Do you look at?
That is also something I think needs to be kind of I think there's two big things from the consumer perspective that I think needs to be changed in the US one is I think the EPA I
think actually this is global I think all company ratings are Kind of international ratings whether it's EPA or whatever are two
too low or I mean too optimistic.
Yeah.
And it really should just be how far can this car go at 70 miles an hour?
And I would even say up to 80 miles per hour, which I realize is really aggressive, but we do have highways here in the U S that do that.
And I think that's kind of like, I exactly.
Exactly.
And I think it's better to have like an overly aggressive, like worst case scenario.
so people are feeling like, I've only got 300 miles of range.
Well, it turns out then you can go 350 or something.
if it's always tied to like this worst case scenario versus like, well, if it's 50 % on the highway, 50 % city, and I just don't think that that's realistic.
And that's not really the range people want to know.
So I think one, there needs to be stricter testing.
And I think.
What everyone wants to know is highway range.
So it needs to be specifically just highway range.
and then the second thing is just around having a higher charge rates.
I think we need to get to kind of like that two and a half to three C charge rate, which we're seeing be an option for a lot of, cell battery cell makers.
and if you have a 70 to 80 kilowatt hour pack, then you're pretty much inherently going to be at the 200 kilowatt plus, which I kind of think.
is the norm, like needs to be the norm.
If not closer to 300.
I think so too.
Yeah.
we now see like the next year, like we see now Mercedes -Benz W for example, launching as well the 800 volt architecture for the vehicles, which Kia and Hyundai have out already
since a few years.
And with that, we all also expect to see higher charge rates.
And I'm really hoping that also to, I'm curious if that is also then again, only starting in the premium segment or who will be the first one to bring it down.
Well, I think 800 volt architecture is really cool, but it's only really cool once you have a battery pack that's like 90 kilowatt hours or bigger.
Once you're in a smaller pack than that, it actually isn't that much of a difference when it comes to charge speed.
the big reason you see a lot of, and some of this is also supplier based.
I think, think in inherently the voltage will probably go higher than what we're seeing for 400 nominal around these smaller packs.
But I don't think it's going to go as high as 800.
an interesting pack actually is the new Macon that came out.
think that's a really great car, but it's nominal is even though they claim it's 800 volt tech, it's 600 volts.
It goes.
nowhere near 800 volt architecture.
And so I think that's, and I'm not trying to poo poo, but I, I, the big reason there was always this 400, 800 volt wasn't to do even with EVs.
It had to do with just American supply chain and what we build products to.
And I think,
What we just need to see is more chargers that are capable of having large bands of voltage supply and then building.
I think the kind of the good and bad to the loose it was they built this really cool 923 volt specific thing.
That's great for efficiency, especially because it has a big big pack in it.
But then a lot of the chargers have had issues with that.
And I think that also will change.
But yeah, to me, it's more.
Because you can kind of play around with the voltage and current in a battery pack how you want.
But yeah, I think the 800 volt thing is cool, but it's really more of a you really notice it once you're getting to a bigger pack that Delta.
really like the measurement of miles of range added at a certain time because it gives you the combination of efficiency and charge rate.
say that's a little annoying is manufacturers don't have a standard for that.
Some do zero to 80, some do 10 to 80 and I think the most common is like 20 to 80 percent.
And you actually don't really need to talk about percentage.
You just need to talk about miles.
Because percentage lets you hide how little mile you get out of a percent.
And that, that, you know, you're a hundred percent right.
Cause that kind of does go back to like the 150 kilowatt rate.
was like, well, at 30 minutes of this.
I think it really should be like, okay, honestly, I don't even think it should be 30 minutes.
It's like in 15 minutes, 20 minutes tops, like how many, how many miles of range can I add?
I think that is what's most important.
I think there's a really nice index by P3.
I think it's less consumer favorable.
P3 is a European consultancy.
And what they measure is what can the car actually recharge in terms of miles in 20 minutes and divide it through 300 kilometers in that case.
I don't know the numbers.
But what they want to check is how close can the car get.
in terms of recharging the distance that you can travel within 20 minutes and setting the goal as like if you have reached 300 kilometers is 1 .0 score.
If it's below, it's not good.
If it's above, it's getting better.
And that's where you kind of factor in all the difference.
a really interesting benchmark and I kind of like it.
I don't think it's going to be, I think it's almost too complicated, obviously.
Yeah, exactly, exactly.
But that is a really interesting way to, as an EV nerd, I like that.
As a consumer approach ability, yeah, who knows.
I had another EV nerd question for you.
The Tesla trip planner is pretty good, probably the best out there.
Why even use a better route planner if you have a Tesla navigation system?
That's a good question.
so great question actually.
I what I like about a better route planner the Tesla planners really good.
I would say it's actually a little conservative for it kind of usually wants you to stay there longer than I would stay there and charged a higher percentage which I think for
someone who's new to an EV they it makes it them feel so comfortable with it.
And sometimes it's also just like I'm trying to be as like efficient or try and get as many miles as possible.
So I'm kind of like comparing the two to see which is which.
But I think it's such a great baseline.
What I love about it specifically though isn't even that it tells you what charger to go.
It's how much information you have about the charger that you can just pull up like, okay, it's this many kilowatt cents per kilowatt hour.
There are this many cars there and then there's this many cars going there right now.
Cause that's been super,
when there's been like a holiday weekend or something and I'm on a road trip too, which I try to avoid, but it happens.
There's been so many ways I save myself like without having to go to one that there's a line at, it admittedly does a really good job of like rerouting you to other ones.
It's like, no, don't go to that one.
There's too many people.
I think there's always room for improvement, but yeah, it is almost getting to the point in some ways where it's like too smart, where it'll start kind of figuring out things.
Like you'll, you'll be like, why is it telling me to go this one?
And then you're like, cause there's a bunch of people here and all this stuff.
but yeah, that's the majority of the reason, is I just kind of like to, cut it a little closer than the Tesla one is.
And it would be kind of nice if I could just kind of dial that in, or if they have like the pro road trip, EV option or something where it cut those things closer.
And then the second.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Exactly.
And then the second thing is, what I like about a better route planner is like you said, you can just go, what does it look like when I'm using winter tires and all this stuff?
And when I'm trying to plan like a multi, a couple thousand road mile road trip, I find a better route planner easier to do that than it is.
the Tesla one, but day to day, yeah, the, the Tesla one solid.
One insight maybe from Europe here on that, because my dad is driving a Tesla Model Y as well.
And I also don't like that.
I mean, it's really good, but I share your, let's say, thought why you would use another one.
And the other thing which I have been observing in Europe is that Tesla is, let's say from the location, always like to be location.
It's off the highway.
So if you really want to go fast from A to B, you rather not use the Tesla network.
First of all, because they have usually higher charging powers, which you can also utilize with Tesla if it's not the newest generation of dispensers.
And you have less of an additional time to leave the interstate and get to the station.
For example, in some location in France or in Italy, you have these toll passes.
We need to get out of the highway and then get back on.
And then it can easily add up like five minutes to your charging break.
while the others are located at the highway itself.
And those networks are not really in the navigation system, and they don't route you to data, which makes sense because business -wise.
an interesting, yeah, there was also an interesting thing.
I knew they were testing.
I don't know if it's actually rolled out where Tesla was going to start putting in like when it plans a trip, put in more like public open ones, but only if it had like a rating
of like what I guarantee you, like 80 % or something.
Like they had their own, kind of like what Rivian's do.
The twist is they do show them, but like in a grail scale.
And only if they have the certain reliability, because Tesla vehicles have been charging there, they show them.
But they never include that automatically in your routing.
And the thing is, because they don't show them previously, most Tesla drivers don't go there.
Plus probably they also like the convenience aspect of their Tesla closed ecosystem experience.
Yeah, well, and I, had been told that that was going to change.
It's interesting to me that that hasn't changed actually to at least like have the option to add them or not.
Kind of like how you can add whether you want to take the options that have like toll roads or stuff.
that'd be cool if they did have that.
So you could just kind of flex in here in the U S they don't even have the option.
You have to manually like search, public charging.
It doesn't even have the great option, which I think would be really cool.
But,
Yeah, just I think also on the West Coast, this is kind of changed, especially in the Northwest where I live.
Just for a long time, there wasn't the same level of high power public fast charging density that there was for the Tesla ones anyway.
It's only generally been like when I go on a road trip and then when I'd go on a road trip I just ran into reliability issues anyway, but it is changing So I am really kind of
optimistic about that and you're right.
I would like to see them have that option at least So I could do that I'm sure they probably will someday but obviously they got all sorts of other things going on and you're
right for their own business model and to be honest with you the other interesting thing too is just how Expensive some of them have gotten
Whereas here in the Northwest, there's some chargers and now some of it's also time to use that are cheaper than home charging.
It's like from, I think it's like 10 PM till six in the morning.
But I pulled into one once and I was like, wait, what the hell?
It's eight cents a kilowatt hour.
And I think I pay 11 cents at home and that's still considered really cheap.
And that blew me away.
And so there's a couple like that.
They're just insanely cheap that
Unfortunately, the electrify America's and others aren't.
And it seems like, especially once you start going east, some of them now, like the, I think it's really cool what the GM energy and EV go ones are, but they're like anywhere
from like 50 to even like 65 cents a kilowatt hour, which, I guess maybe I'm just being cheap at that point, but that's, that's, that's been a little of the mentality at least.
Yeah.
happy about those prices.
We have stations that cost you up to a dollar or more per kilowatt hour.
And then it's not a case to own a V.
For sure, no, I completely agree.
Yeah, no, and I mean, we're really spoiled here in the Northwest because we have so much cheap hydropower.
That's a big part of reason our rates are just so much lower in general.
But yeah, it's an interesting thing to see and there's definitely a lot of growing pains.
I think it's all gonna get solved.
But no, I just want to say thank you both for coming on.
And it was really fun to kind of talk with you guys and kind of live vicariously through the video, which I'll have in the link for today's show notes for those.
And I highly recommend everyone watch it.
It is really just fun and entertaining to watch you guys go on the trip.
And it made me want to do a road trip again here soon across the U S so I'll have to do it and maybe I'll update and say, damn it.
Why didn't I get a lucid or something?
I'm complaining and say you guys had it way too easy.
Beat our record next time.
I don't know if I'm going to do that, but that is tempting.
think maybe I'll wait a year or two before I try that until there's a few more chargers out there.
honestly, Janak, Julius, this was so much fun and thank you so much for coming on today.
We'll have to talk soon and I hope you guys do something like this.
I'd love to see one in Europe too to kind of see as a comparison road trip over there.
guess the Lucids are just now coming to Europe as like an option.
think they have been for around a year, a year probably more.
Yeah, they're selling in Europe.
Not as high volumes as in North America, but there are customers driving Lucid's in Europe as well.
Very cool.
I hope you guys do that soon, but totally understand the logistics behind that either way.
But Janick, Julius, thank you so much.
Talk to you soon.
Thanks, Chase.
was nice talking to you, bye.
We hope you enjoyed our conversation with Janick Metzner and Julius Wilhelm, founders of the electric avenue newsletter about their record set and run for charging an EV on a
cannonball run in a lucid air from the challenges of charging infrastructure to their unique insights on EV efficiency.
It's clear that the future of electric road trips is incredibly bright.
Whether you're planning your own EV adventure or just curious about the state of charging across the U S and Europe.
This episode gave us a firsthand look at what's possible with the latest in EV technology.
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