1 00:00:00,598 --> 00:00:01,678 What's up, Caleb? 2 00:00:01,678 --> 00:00:03,018 What's up, Ben? 3 00:00:03,058 --> 00:00:04,238 How's it going? 4 00:00:04,638 --> 00:00:05,598 It's great. 5 00:00:05,598 --> 00:00:07,158 Doing well. 6 00:00:07,778 --> 00:00:10,488 Well, it's a pleasure to talk to you, Ben. 7 00:00:10,488 --> 00:00:15,678 I just want to lead out and say that I've followed you for a long time. 8 00:00:16,198 --> 00:00:19,928 And like one of the first places I worked at, you got on my radar because you worked 9 00:00:19,928 --> 00:00:20,648 at Thoughtbot. 10 00:00:20,648 --> 00:00:22,958 Like, I don't know what your position was at Thoughtbot. 11 00:00:22,958 --> 00:00:27,694 And that was one of my first like pillars of programming people. 12 00:00:27,694 --> 00:00:31,434 at the time was like, oh, and I was scouring the blog posts on Thoughtbot and 13 00:00:31,434 --> 00:00:35,734 just every blog post was like, this is the content I'm here for. 14 00:00:35,734 --> 00:00:38,374 I just wanted to lead with that, set it up. 15 00:00:38,374 --> 00:00:39,354 I appreciate that. 16 00:00:39,354 --> 00:00:40,514 That's awesome. 17 00:00:40,514 --> 00:00:41,894 Yeah, those were those were good days. 18 00:00:41,894 --> 00:00:46,414 I think I built a lot of my audience during that period. 19 00:00:46,414 --> 00:00:48,894 So there's a lot of people who basically know me because of or sort of through 20 00:00:48,894 --> 00:00:49,474 Thoughtbot. 21 00:00:49,474 --> 00:00:50,074 Yeah. 22 00:00:50,074 --> 00:00:52,194 I mean, now surely that's not the case. 23 00:00:52,194 --> 00:00:52,994 Right. 24 00:00:52,994 --> 00:00:56,230 Like Tupel is like on the map. 25 00:00:56,782 --> 00:00:59,962 to pull someone on the map yet, but I think it's hard to say. 26 00:00:59,962 --> 00:01:02,062 A lot of people do mention the Thoughtbot days. 27 00:01:02,062 --> 00:01:05,082 So I think that was the seas were definitely there. 28 00:01:05,282 --> 00:01:06,022 Cool. 29 00:01:06,022 --> 00:01:07,002 Yeah. 30 00:01:07,182 --> 00:01:13,172 So I'm stoked to talk to you about some code and kind of go deep in some of that 31 00:01:13,172 --> 00:01:13,722 stuff. 32 00:01:13,722 --> 00:01:17,882 And it seems like this is it seems like you have made yourself a life of mostly 33 00:01:17,882 --> 00:01:19,662 focusing on code. 34 00:01:19,662 --> 00:01:20,152 Yeah. 35 00:01:20,152 --> 00:01:23,444 You're doing you seem to support yourself through. 36 00:01:23,502 --> 00:01:28,392 open source contributions plus like some paid educational products around those 37 00:01:28,392 --> 00:01:30,222 open source tools. 38 00:01:31,722 --> 00:01:38,182 And, but I'm guessing you spend 80 % of your professional time writing code, maybe 39 00:01:38,182 --> 00:01:39,102 more. 40 00:01:39,162 --> 00:01:39,482 Yeah. 41 00:01:39,482 --> 00:01:45,022 I think it's pretty much all, it's pretty much all writing code. 42 00:01:45,022 --> 00:01:48,182 It's, but it's not all open source code. 43 00:01:48,182 --> 00:01:51,722 So like the open source stuff. 44 00:01:51,950 --> 00:01:52,690 I don't know. 45 00:01:52,690 --> 00:01:57,880 Lately I've been spending like the first three hours of my day, like pull request 46 00:01:57,880 --> 00:01:58,700 maintenance and stuff. 47 00:01:58,700 --> 00:02:03,160 And then the rest is I'm usually developing something in the background to 48 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:03,620 release it. 49 00:02:03,620 --> 00:02:03,970 Lericon. 50 00:02:03,970 --> 00:02:04,940 That's usually how it goes. 51 00:02:04,940 --> 00:02:07,480 So it's usually like a new version of the open source tools. 52 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:08,480 Maybe it is open source. 53 00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:13,800 It's just like a private branch or in this case, it's more of like a product thing 54 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,670 that I'm working on. 55 00:02:16,210 --> 00:02:17,970 So yeah, but it is all code. 56 00:02:17,970 --> 00:02:20,830 And sometimes I do a lot of screencasting to support the work. 57 00:02:20,830 --> 00:02:22,030 Like that's where a lot of. 58 00:02:22,030 --> 00:02:24,070 the revenue comes from for me. 59 00:02:24,430 --> 00:02:28,600 And that is still like, so there is a lot of screencasting and content production, 60 00:02:28,600 --> 00:02:32,190 but the majority of the work there is actually me writing the code for the 61 00:02:32,190 --> 00:02:35,770 screencast and like honing it and really kind of figuring it out. 62 00:02:35,770 --> 00:02:38,030 The screencasts are very code oriented. 63 00:02:38,030 --> 00:02:40,310 You buy the video and the source code. 64 00:02:40,310 --> 00:02:45,350 So it's like, you know, so yes, I code a lot Ben and it makes me happy. 65 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:45,510 Yeah. 66 00:02:45,510 --> 00:02:46,330 Yeah. 67 00:02:46,330 --> 00:02:48,102 Well you it's. 68 00:02:48,174 --> 00:02:50,544 I think this is, it seems like you're maybe living a life that a lot of 69 00:02:50,544 --> 00:02:54,824 developers want, which is that you are, it seems like pretty independent and you get 70 00:02:54,824 --> 00:02:58,034 to work on your open source things and get paid for that. 71 00:02:58,034 --> 00:03:00,814 And you seem pretty happy with this life. 72 00:03:00,814 --> 00:03:03,314 I am definitely happy with it. 73 00:03:03,534 --> 00:03:07,714 Yeah, I def I'm like reaching, I'm trying to build bigger. 74 00:03:07,714 --> 00:03:09,104 I want more. 75 00:03:09,104 --> 00:03:14,864 I've decided that like, I'm not just happy to have the like lifestyle independent 76 00:03:14,864 --> 00:03:16,194 developer. 77 00:03:16,206 --> 00:03:17,896 life, I want more. 78 00:03:17,896 --> 00:03:20,746 I don't know what that looks like, but I just know that I want more. 79 00:03:20,746 --> 00:03:26,796 So, yes, but I'm absolutely happy with it in the sense that pretty much every day I 80 00:03:26,796 --> 00:03:30,616 do what I want to do, which a lot of times is what I should do, you know, not 81 00:03:30,616 --> 00:03:31,846 necessarily things. 82 00:03:31,846 --> 00:03:32,556 How do I put this? 83 00:03:32,556 --> 00:03:36,186 As you know, it's like when you're independent, you're working on stuff you 84 00:03:36,186 --> 00:03:39,206 want to work on, but you're also doing stuff you don't want to do that you know 85 00:03:39,206 --> 00:03:41,126 is good for you that you should do. 86 00:03:41,126 --> 00:03:43,686 So there's a lot of that, but. 87 00:03:44,174 --> 00:03:50,104 But yeah, I think I've got like a decent life going on here and I'm just really 88 00:03:50,104 --> 00:03:52,394 grateful that it works out that way. 89 00:03:52,394 --> 00:03:53,154 Yeah. 90 00:03:53,154 --> 00:03:53,584 Gotcha. 91 00:03:53,584 --> 00:03:53,874 Yeah. 92 00:03:53,874 --> 00:03:56,844 So do you want to maybe start with just like a quick description of it seems like 93 00:03:56,844 --> 00:03:59,344 your tube, the two big things are Alpine and Livewire. 94 00:03:59,344 --> 00:04:01,334 Those like where I think most of your time is going. 95 00:04:01,334 --> 00:04:02,954 Yeah, pretty much all my time. 96 00:04:02,954 --> 00:04:04,774 Everything is Livewire and Alpine. 97 00:04:04,774 --> 00:04:05,354 Yep. 98 00:04:05,354 --> 00:04:05,774 Gotcha. 99 00:04:05,774 --> 00:04:06,094 Okay. 100 00:04:06,094 --> 00:04:08,534 And do you want to maybe elevator pitch those things for us real quick? 101 00:04:08,534 --> 00:04:08,874 Sure. 102 00:04:08,874 --> 00:04:09,934 Yeah. 103 00:04:10,214 --> 00:04:12,914 So actually now it's easier to pitch Livewire because everybody knows about 104 00:04:12,914 --> 00:04:14,030 HTMX. 105 00:04:14,030 --> 00:04:19,110 But HTMX inspired me early on when I was at Titan. 106 00:04:20,310 --> 00:04:25,120 I was writing a lot of view SPAs for the past maybe three years at the time and 107 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,550 getting kind of bitter about it. 108 00:04:28,790 --> 00:04:33,000 I actually almost got fired from a job because it took me a week to do a file 109 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:38,890 upload because I didn't even know what form, I even forget now, uploading a file 110 00:04:38,890 --> 00:04:42,510 before SPAs is just input type file. 111 00:04:42,510 --> 00:04:46,250 and you know, Code Igniter just knew what to do with that or whatever. 112 00:04:46,270 --> 00:04:50,160 But anyway, so there were moments like that where I just had these awakening 113 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,370 moments and then I was reading like DHH's. 114 00:04:53,370 --> 00:04:55,530 I mean, you know all this stuff. 115 00:04:55,530 --> 00:05:01,820 I just read from the outside because I was never a Rails guy, but the like JS over, I 116 00:05:01,820 --> 00:05:05,170 what it used to call it, that pattern. 117 00:05:05,170 --> 00:05:06,480 But anyway, like. 118 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:08,470 An obtrusive JavaScript, maybe. 119 00:05:08,490 --> 00:05:10,734 No, it's something it's like. 120 00:05:10,734 --> 00:05:16,124 it was like JavaScript over the wire, but like sending JavaScript to the browser to 121 00:05:16,124 --> 00:05:19,114 execute over Ajax, like things like that. 122 00:05:19,594 --> 00:05:23,054 Server sent JavaScript or something, whatever. 123 00:05:23,054 --> 00:05:27,344 But also sending HTML partials was something that I had discovered in the 124 00:05:27,344 --> 00:05:31,644 Rails community and PJax and like TurboLinks and whatever, and just sort of 125 00:05:31,644 --> 00:05:35,904 realizing that like this pattern, and I found Intercooler, which is now HTML, you 126 00:05:35,904 --> 00:05:36,744 just renamed it. 127 00:05:36,744 --> 00:05:40,590 And so I started using Intercooler and it's just like fetching HTML. 128 00:05:40,590 --> 00:05:44,350 and really fell in love with the pattern and thought, and then the Phoenix live 129 00:05:44,350 --> 00:05:48,450 view came out and I was like, this is that taken to the next level. 130 00:05:48,450 --> 00:05:51,630 And I was, I want to do that for Laravel. 131 00:05:51,650 --> 00:05:54,450 And that's been LiveWire ever since. 132 00:05:54,450 --> 00:05:58,400 So I guess for people who don't know any of the frameworks or patterns I just 133 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:02,980 mentioned, LiveWire is like, it's in the Laravel framework. 134 00:06:02,980 --> 00:06:07,780 And when you're using Laravel, it allows you to stay in the backend, but create 135 00:06:07,780 --> 00:06:09,350 dynamic interfaces. 136 00:06:09,370 --> 00:06:10,126 So like. 137 00:06:10,126 --> 00:06:16,146 you can say wire click on a button and the method that gets called when that wire 138 00:06:16,146 --> 00:06:20,566 click happens is a backend method instead of just like a front end click listener 139 00:06:20,566 --> 00:06:22,666 that calls a front end JavaScript method. 140 00:06:22,666 --> 00:06:29,036 It's literally like a PHP class that you can access state and methods in both the 141 00:06:29,036 --> 00:06:30,306 front end and the backend. 142 00:06:30,366 --> 00:06:31,646 So interesting. 143 00:06:31,646 --> 00:06:36,586 So I can say when you click this button on the front end, make a request to the 144 00:06:36,586 --> 00:06:39,056 backend, run this particular method. 145 00:06:39,056 --> 00:06:39,630 Yep. 146 00:06:39,630 --> 00:06:42,690 take the results of that and stick it in here or maybe even execute it? 147 00:06:42,690 --> 00:06:44,890 Is it coming back as like data or JavaScript? 148 00:06:44,890 --> 00:06:46,870 Right, so is the really integrated part. 149 00:06:46,870 --> 00:06:50,780 So let's say like if you wanted to build a counter in LiveWare, you wouldn't because 150 00:06:50,780 --> 00:06:53,110 why would you send network requests to build a counter? 151 00:06:53,110 --> 00:06:55,050 But okay, you want to build a counter in LiveWare. 152 00:06:55,050 --> 00:07:00,460 You have a backend class called counter that has state, so like a public property 153 00:07:00,460 --> 00:07:04,572 called count, and then a method called increment on that class. 154 00:07:04,814 --> 00:07:07,254 And then you have a view that correlates with that class. 155 00:07:07,254 --> 00:07:10,744 So it, for us, it's in a render method in the class, but whatever you have a backend 156 00:07:10,744 --> 00:07:14,134 template like ERB or blade and Laravel. 157 00:07:14,374 --> 00:07:19,624 And that template is just a normal view, like from a controller that you pass the 158 00:07:19,624 --> 00:07:22,874 properties into and you can echo out things in the backend. 159 00:07:22,874 --> 00:07:28,744 So you could say like an H one tag, echo out count that count property as a normal 160 00:07:28,744 --> 00:07:29,454 backend variables. 161 00:07:29,454 --> 00:07:30,004 This makes sense. 162 00:07:30,004 --> 00:07:31,194 So totally. 163 00:07:31,438 --> 00:07:34,908 think about almost just like a controller and a view, just sending data and then 164 00:07:34,908 --> 00:07:37,378 echoing it into the view. 165 00:07:37,378 --> 00:07:41,928 And then you'd have a button that says wire click increment and wire click 166 00:07:41,928 --> 00:07:45,218 increment is just an HTML attribute on the button. 167 00:07:45,218 --> 00:07:45,738 Okay. 168 00:07:45,738 --> 00:07:46,978 Do we have the setup? 169 00:07:46,978 --> 00:07:47,988 You got that locked in? 170 00:07:47,988 --> 00:07:48,438 I think so. 171 00:07:48,438 --> 00:07:48,758 Yeah. 172 00:07:48,758 --> 00:07:49,038 Yep. 173 00:07:49,038 --> 00:07:54,678 Is there any hole or any, what's the little tiniest bit of not clarity for you? 174 00:07:54,678 --> 00:07:58,228 Let me try to say it back to you and see if I've got it so far. 175 00:07:58,228 --> 00:07:59,078 Great. 176 00:07:59,258 --> 00:08:00,618 We're wiring up a button. 177 00:08:00,618 --> 00:08:01,006 Yep. 178 00:08:01,006 --> 00:08:05,756 There exists a back -end class that does the increment and stores the data in RAM 179 00:08:05,756 --> 00:08:07,406 somewhere in some sort of instance. 180 00:08:07,406 --> 00:08:09,466 Don't even worry about where the data is stored. 181 00:08:09,466 --> 00:08:10,816 Just the experience. 182 00:08:10,816 --> 00:08:12,846 But it's not on the front end. 183 00:08:12,846 --> 00:08:13,376 It's not. 184 00:08:13,376 --> 00:08:14,506 It's a back -end class. 185 00:08:14,506 --> 00:08:15,426 That's saying. 186 00:08:15,446 --> 00:08:15,686 Yeah. 187 00:08:15,686 --> 00:08:16,326 That's what we're getting at. 188 00:08:16,326 --> 00:08:16,786 Yeah. 189 00:08:16,786 --> 00:08:17,536 And so, yeah. 190 00:08:17,536 --> 00:08:21,306 So we have something that's going to fire when I click this button that's going to 191 00:08:21,306 --> 00:08:23,786 increment on the back end. 192 00:08:23,786 --> 00:08:27,246 And then something is going to flow back to the front end somewhere and show me the 193 00:08:27,246 --> 00:08:28,206 new state. 194 00:08:28,366 --> 00:08:28,866 Yeah. 195 00:08:28,866 --> 00:08:29,186 Yep. 196 00:08:29,186 --> 00:08:29,902 Basically. 197 00:08:29,902 --> 00:08:34,562 So the experience of it again is just like almost like a controller, except you have 198 00:08:34,562 --> 00:08:37,542 state like properties and methods instead of just methods. 199 00:08:37,542 --> 00:08:39,212 And there's a view that correlates. 200 00:08:39,212 --> 00:08:40,802 You have a button, wire click increment. 201 00:08:40,802 --> 00:08:44,382 When somebody clicks that button on the front end, a network request gets sent to 202 00:08:44,382 --> 00:08:46,472 the backend with the last known state. 203 00:08:46,472 --> 00:08:47,772 So that's how the state gets transferred. 204 00:08:47,772 --> 00:08:49,222 It's like a snapshot. 205 00:08:49,222 --> 00:08:52,062 So this little snapshot of state gets sent to the backend. 206 00:08:52,062 --> 00:08:57,462 It hydrates that class, calls your method like increment, which bumps count to two, 207 00:08:57,502 --> 00:08:59,342 re -renders that HTML view. 208 00:08:59,342 --> 00:09:04,212 And then sends back the new snapshot of data, the latest snapshot, along with the 209 00:09:04,212 --> 00:09:05,722 latest HTML. 210 00:09:05,742 --> 00:09:10,082 And then in the front end, that new snapshot gets held for the next time. 211 00:09:10,082 --> 00:09:12,722 And that new HTML gets morphed onto the page. 212 00:09:12,722 --> 00:09:15,692 So it's like kind of like a virtual DOM, but not virtual. 213 00:09:15,692 --> 00:09:20,072 It's like DOM diffing, like walking and finding like, okay, this divs the same. 214 00:09:20,072 --> 00:09:22,482 Oh, this H1 has a different text content. 215 00:09:22,482 --> 00:09:27,202 Let's mutate the current H1 on the page to the last known H1. 216 00:09:27,202 --> 00:09:29,576 So the experience on the front end is that. 217 00:09:29,774 --> 00:09:31,994 When you're writing code, you feel like you're writing back end code. 218 00:09:31,994 --> 00:09:35,034 When you're using it, you feel like you're using front end code. 219 00:09:35,034 --> 00:09:36,194 Yeah. 220 00:09:36,194 --> 00:09:37,784 But which is very similar to HTML. 221 00:09:37,784 --> 00:09:40,394 It just has, it does a lot more of the glue for you. 222 00:09:40,394 --> 00:09:45,294 So you're not creating bespoke endpoints and such, or manually sending the HTML. 223 00:09:45,294 --> 00:09:46,894 It's really declarative in that sense. 224 00:09:46,894 --> 00:09:50,974 You're sort of declaring a state and a view and a template. 225 00:09:50,974 --> 00:09:52,314 And then, yeah. 226 00:09:52,314 --> 00:09:53,874 So that's LiveWare. 227 00:09:53,874 --> 00:09:57,374 Very similar to Phoenix LiveView, if anybody's familiar with that. 228 00:09:57,374 --> 00:09:58,862 But yeah. 229 00:09:58,862 --> 00:09:59,702 That's the pitch. 230 00:09:59,702 --> 00:10:04,112 And then Alpine is the JS sprinkles that I wrote for LiveWire, but turns out it's 231 00:10:04,112 --> 00:10:08,782 like really useful outside of LiveWire in vanilla Rails apps. 232 00:10:08,782 --> 00:10:10,332 It's useful even in Hotwire. 233 00:10:10,332 --> 00:10:11,362 It's useful in HTML. 234 00:10:11,362 --> 00:10:17,152 So it sort of gained wider adoption because it's for me, it's like, uh, like 235 00:10:17,152 --> 00:10:18,092 the modern jQuery. 236 00:10:18,092 --> 00:10:23,152 It's like a JS sprinkles framework that just, you can throw in a CDN and all of a 237 00:10:23,152 --> 00:10:28,166 sudden have a lot of power to make drop downs and popovers and. 238 00:10:28,270 --> 00:10:29,670 Whatever all sorts of stuff. 239 00:10:29,670 --> 00:10:30,490 Modals. 240 00:10:30,490 --> 00:10:31,390 Yeah. 241 00:10:31,390 --> 00:10:32,030 Nice. 242 00:10:32,030 --> 00:10:33,090 That's so interesting. 243 00:10:33,090 --> 00:10:39,200 I I like more or less retired from web development right before all of this stuff 244 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,230 like started happening. 245 00:10:40,230 --> 00:10:40,830 Okay. 246 00:10:40,830 --> 00:10:44,260 It's like I was like just as like JavaScript was like kind of taking off 247 00:10:44,260 --> 00:10:45,910 like like do you remember Backbone by any chance? 248 00:10:45,910 --> 00:10:46,810 Yeah. 249 00:10:46,810 --> 00:10:50,060 Like when Backbone was kind of like ascending was like about when I like 250 00:10:50,060 --> 00:10:52,240 stepped out of the early days. 251 00:10:52,240 --> 00:10:54,682 That's really that's like pre react era. 252 00:10:54,702 --> 00:10:55,842 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 253 00:10:55,842 --> 00:10:59,262 And so every time I like I'm talking, you know, modern JavaScript, I'm like, I am 254 00:10:59,262 --> 00:10:59,962 out of my depth. 255 00:10:59,962 --> 00:11:01,662 I have touched this in so long. 256 00:11:01,662 --> 00:11:06,382 I'm just so used to like everybody knows everything about, you know, the current 257 00:11:06,382 --> 00:11:07,182 landscape. 258 00:11:07,182 --> 00:11:08,662 But that's that's funny. 259 00:11:08,662 --> 00:11:09,442 Totally. 260 00:11:09,442 --> 00:11:09,682 Yeah. 261 00:11:09,682 --> 00:11:13,222 Yesterday, I was talking to somebody that works at Duple as a younger guy. 262 00:11:13,222 --> 00:11:17,502 And when I told him like my my level of JavaScript knowledge, he was like, oh, 263 00:11:17,502 --> 00:11:18,682 wow, you are old. 264 00:11:18,682 --> 00:11:23,662 It like wasn't until he understood where I stopped JavaScripting that he like. 265 00:11:23,662 --> 00:11:26,022 appreciated just quite how ancient I was. 266 00:11:26,022 --> 00:11:26,462 That's great. 267 00:11:26,462 --> 00:11:31,352 If you're ever looking for like a fun time, just like peruse all the stuff that 268 00:11:31,352 --> 00:11:33,562 exists now that jQuery used to have to do for us. 269 00:11:33,562 --> 00:11:34,212 It's so nice. 270 00:11:34,212 --> 00:11:36,902 It's like JavaScript's like decent now. 271 00:11:36,902 --> 00:11:37,742 Nice. 272 00:11:37,742 --> 00:11:38,562 Yeah. 273 00:11:39,062 --> 00:11:41,202 Last you knew it wasn't that decent. 274 00:11:41,202 --> 00:11:42,502 It was not that decent. 275 00:11:42,502 --> 00:11:45,012 That's sort of still how it is cached in my brain. 276 00:11:45,012 --> 00:11:45,452 Yeah. 277 00:11:45,452 --> 00:11:48,232 It's just like this sort of like, I don't know if this is for me. 278 00:11:48,232 --> 00:11:49,882 Yeah, it's better. 279 00:11:49,998 --> 00:11:52,088 I don't know that I've been sold that it actually is for me. 280 00:11:52,088 --> 00:11:57,138 Like it still seems like kind of crazy as I like peek at it from a distance. 281 00:11:57,138 --> 00:11:59,338 But I'm glad you're taking it. 282 00:11:59,338 --> 00:12:00,338 Yeah. 283 00:12:00,738 --> 00:12:03,618 You know, you know more than I do. 284 00:12:03,838 --> 00:12:05,738 Maybe about JavaScript, Ben. 285 00:12:05,738 --> 00:12:06,438 Yeah. 286 00:12:06,438 --> 00:12:07,058 All right. 287 00:12:07,058 --> 00:12:08,848 So let's talk about coding a little bit. 288 00:12:08,848 --> 00:12:09,918 Yeah. 289 00:12:10,238 --> 00:12:10,958 Cool. 290 00:12:10,958 --> 00:12:17,598 If I saw some code and said, oh, man, Caleb definitely wrote this. 291 00:12:18,118 --> 00:12:19,118 What would I be talking about? 292 00:12:19,118 --> 00:12:20,078 What would I have seen? 293 00:12:20,078 --> 00:12:27,518 I think what people would say, like maybe one tiny little ism is like really short 294 00:12:27,518 --> 00:12:30,218 or absurdly long method names. 295 00:12:30,298 --> 00:12:36,408 Like a method name or a variable name that's like a complete sentence that has 296 00:12:36,408 --> 00:12:38,178 like 15 words. 297 00:12:39,718 --> 00:12:43,238 And that's like kind of a philosophy of mine is like the name should either be 298 00:12:43,238 --> 00:12:48,398 incredibly short because it's so obvious in its context or it should be incredibly 299 00:12:48,398 --> 00:12:49,294 long so that... 300 00:12:49,294 --> 00:12:53,654 there's no like question about it at all. 301 00:12:53,654 --> 00:12:54,194 You know? 302 00:12:54,194 --> 00:12:54,734 Yeah. 303 00:12:54,734 --> 00:12:55,634 I like that a lot. 304 00:12:55,634 --> 00:12:58,914 I think people are like overly afraid of long names. 305 00:12:58,914 --> 00:13:01,214 There's like no harm at all. 306 00:13:01,214 --> 00:13:08,144 I guess the only harm is you lose some of that easy like aesthetic, but that that's 307 00:13:08,144 --> 00:13:10,574 why you make, try to make things single word. 308 00:13:10,574 --> 00:13:14,244 And if, if they're double word, maybe you can extract, maybe it's, I don't know. 309 00:13:14,244 --> 00:13:18,014 I've always been fascinated how naming can kind of give you smells about your code. 310 00:13:18,014 --> 00:13:18,286 Like, 311 00:13:18,286 --> 00:13:21,366 Totally you have all these contextual names and you're like, oh if I actually 312 00:13:21,366 --> 00:13:25,466 put this in a class or a separate file I just remove the prefix on all those 313 00:13:25,466 --> 00:13:28,736 things, you know Yeah, so that's the ultimate goal. 314 00:13:28,736 --> 00:13:33,916 But if you can't like just make that big fat method name, you know, yeah, I love 315 00:13:33,916 --> 00:13:39,226 that I'm I think this like is a good example of sort of like a philosophy of 316 00:13:39,226 --> 00:13:44,716 mine which is as much as you can getting the Implicit knowledge in the code to be 317 00:13:44,716 --> 00:13:45,266 explicit. 318 00:13:45,266 --> 00:13:47,726 Yeah, so there's a lot of times like 319 00:13:47,726 --> 00:13:51,626 people will explain a method to me and be like, oh, well, like this does this as 320 00:13:51,626 --> 00:13:52,726 long as this. 321 00:13:52,726 --> 00:13:55,566 And I'm like, great, let's tack on as long as this. 322 00:13:56,146 --> 00:13:57,466 Yes, right. 323 00:13:57,466 --> 00:13:57,796 Yes. 324 00:13:57,796 --> 00:14:01,646 Those are, those are the kinds of prefixes that I, you know, I don't want to say it's 325 00:14:01,646 --> 00:14:02,376 all over my code. 326 00:14:02,376 --> 00:14:06,036 Cause again, I'm, I'm trying for these, I'm trying for, for really sleek, like 327 00:14:06,036 --> 00:14:12,746 minimal stuff, but, but definitely as long as, or doing this until, or ensure this 328 00:14:12,746 --> 00:14:14,726 is, you know, things like that. 329 00:14:14,726 --> 00:14:17,792 The kind of like describe more about. 330 00:14:17,902 --> 00:14:23,442 I guess like ensure is like a favorite of mine, like for, instead of having like a 331 00:14:23,442 --> 00:14:27,072 conditional guard clause at the top that forks the logic in something, just having 332 00:14:27,072 --> 00:14:31,202 like a method at the top that's like ensure the file exists or something and 333 00:14:31,202 --> 00:14:33,662 then continue the flow as normal. 334 00:14:34,542 --> 00:14:39,072 I don't know that that's kind of a sides of point, but ensure is like a name that I 335 00:14:39,072 --> 00:14:43,042 like that also like introduces a pattern that I like, I don't know. 336 00:14:43,042 --> 00:14:47,086 But yeah, it's like, it kind of feels like the short. 337 00:14:47,086 --> 00:14:52,386 Really short names are like your reward for having done a nice job on your design. 338 00:14:52,386 --> 00:14:52,926 Yeah. 339 00:14:52,926 --> 00:14:56,496 And like gotten good names into other places so that you can like, so it is 340 00:14:56,496 --> 00:15:00,766 unambiguous when you see like, like execute or something like some sort of 341 00:15:00,766 --> 00:15:01,546 name like that. 342 00:15:01,546 --> 00:15:02,136 Right. 343 00:15:02,136 --> 00:15:03,146 Yeah, exactly. 344 00:15:03,146 --> 00:15:03,806 Yep. 345 00:15:03,806 --> 00:15:07,566 Here's an example of, of something that I did for fun. 346 00:15:07,566 --> 00:15:12,026 So I rewrote LiveWire last year, like a full code -based rewrite from scratch. 347 00:15:12,026 --> 00:15:13,766 Took way too long, like a year and a half. 348 00:15:13,766 --> 00:15:15,226 We gotta talk about that. 349 00:15:15,226 --> 00:15:16,586 Yes, we should. 350 00:15:16,814 --> 00:15:21,464 But there was one file or one feature that I felt like I couldn't crack. 351 00:15:21,464 --> 00:15:24,634 Like I couldn't, I couldn't like do it well. 352 00:15:24,634 --> 00:15:28,494 I couldn't separate things properly enough and whatever. 353 00:15:28,494 --> 00:15:30,694 So it was actually, it's basically a Turbolinks feature. 354 00:15:30,694 --> 00:15:32,074 I added that to LiveWire. 355 00:15:32,074 --> 00:15:34,434 So I mean, you're familiar with Turbolinks and PJax. 356 00:15:34,434 --> 00:15:35,594 I can't remember what it does anymore. 357 00:15:35,594 --> 00:15:40,184 It's so funny, Ben, to me, you're like the Rails guy that I can, like most people, I 358 00:15:40,184 --> 00:15:41,754 can't just drop these Rails references. 359 00:15:41,754 --> 00:15:42,704 They don't know what I'm talking about. 360 00:15:42,704 --> 00:15:45,368 But Ben surely knows what I'm talking about. 361 00:15:45,518 --> 00:15:47,868 I remember, I think it was like partial page reloading. 362 00:15:47,868 --> 00:15:48,978 Was that what that was? 363 00:15:48,978 --> 00:15:55,078 Basically, GitHub pretty much still uses it, but TurboLinks hijacks all the a tags 364 00:15:55,078 --> 00:15:56,358 on the page. 365 00:15:56,358 --> 00:16:01,538 And then instead of doing full page navigations, they Ajax that whole page and 366 00:16:01,538 --> 00:16:08,538 they just sub out the body and then splice in any head scripts and links or styles. 367 00:16:08,538 --> 00:16:12,014 And then it just basically is a full page change. 368 00:16:12,014 --> 00:16:14,374 and you don't have to do anything on the server to account for this. 369 00:16:14,374 --> 00:16:18,814 That's why it's so beautiful, but it speeds up page transitions by light years, 370 00:16:18,814 --> 00:16:22,074 because it doesn't have to tear down everything and reboot at all. 371 00:16:22,714 --> 00:16:23,074 Whatever. 372 00:16:23,074 --> 00:16:24,994 Let me teach you about modern Rails. 373 00:16:24,994 --> 00:16:29,534 Let me teach you about legacy Rails, but nobody uses TurboWinks. 374 00:16:29,534 --> 00:16:31,214 Let me teach you about old Rails. 375 00:16:31,214 --> 00:16:36,134 Pjax was controversial inside Thoughtbot, as I was wrapping up there. 376 00:16:36,134 --> 00:16:38,014 So I think we were kind of like, we don't know about this. 377 00:16:38,014 --> 00:16:38,984 This is a maybe for us. 378 00:16:38,984 --> 00:16:40,686 And Pjax is more... 379 00:16:40,686 --> 00:16:44,336 Uh, like HTML, like P -text can be like partials and things that you're talking 380 00:16:44,336 --> 00:16:48,996 about where like turbo links and hot wire, like turbo drive are just kind of full 381 00:16:48,996 --> 00:16:49,966 page. 382 00:16:49,966 --> 00:16:51,966 You know, it's much less dangerous. 383 00:16:51,966 --> 00:16:53,226 Doesn't whatever. 384 00:16:53,226 --> 00:16:59,346 So I go to write this feature pen for live wire and I can't like crack the flow in a 385 00:16:59,346 --> 00:17:03,706 way that I like, like keeping things separate because everything is so related. 386 00:17:03,706 --> 00:17:05,869 It's just whatever. 387 00:17:05,869 --> 00:17:09,459 So I ended up just writing it out like a sentence or like a paragraph. 388 00:17:09,459 --> 00:17:13,179 So if you read this code, it's literally like, this is like the first method in 389 00:17:13,179 --> 00:17:13,569 JavaScript. 390 00:17:13,569 --> 00:17:19,859 It's like when a user presses a button and then a callback that does all those things 391 00:17:19,859 --> 00:17:25,219 and then like a parameter in that callback that's like, and then do this that gets 392 00:17:25,219 --> 00:17:26,549 called at the end. 393 00:17:26,549 --> 00:17:32,090 And like, and in, in that method, it's just, you could literally read it like a 394 00:17:32,090 --> 00:17:34,750 paragraph and it would read cohesively. 395 00:17:35,694 --> 00:17:36,754 Yeah, I just, I don't know. 396 00:17:36,754 --> 00:17:40,794 I scrapped that, that like file so many times and then decided like, this is 397 00:17:40,794 --> 00:17:42,234 something that is so specific. 398 00:17:42,234 --> 00:17:44,674 I need to literally write it like a story. 399 00:17:44,674 --> 00:17:51,284 Um, and it remains one of the pieces of code that I like maintaining the most for 400 00:17:51,284 --> 00:17:54,734 some reason, cause it's so obvious what everything does. 401 00:17:54,734 --> 00:18:00,424 And you can just like at a glance, you can look at the entire critical flow and just 402 00:18:00,424 --> 00:18:03,354 read it like a book and go, Oh, like that's where I need to go. 403 00:18:03,354 --> 00:18:05,074 Or I can add this into that point. 404 00:18:05,074 --> 00:18:05,966 I don't know. 405 00:18:05,966 --> 00:18:07,676 Just a random nugget for you. 406 00:18:07,676 --> 00:18:08,546 That's interesting. 407 00:18:08,546 --> 00:18:09,706 Cause that was my first question. 408 00:18:09,706 --> 00:18:13,446 Like that would be my most, my first thought is like, have you made some 409 00:18:13,446 --> 00:18:19,046 changes to this since then and found it malleable along with just like 410 00:18:19,046 --> 00:18:19,606 declarative? 411 00:18:19,606 --> 00:18:22,306 Yeah, it, it really is a joy to maintain. 412 00:18:22,306 --> 00:18:25,986 And I, this is like for some reason it's an anomaly. 413 00:18:25,986 --> 00:18:27,806 I don't write other code like this. 414 00:18:27,806 --> 00:18:28,876 I haven't used it. 415 00:18:28,876 --> 00:18:30,226 I don't know. 416 00:18:30,226 --> 00:18:32,906 Sounds like it's working in JavaScript. 417 00:18:32,906 --> 00:18:35,278 It feels really natural because in JavaScript, I 418 00:18:35,278 --> 00:18:36,748 pretty much don't use classes or anything. 419 00:18:36,748 --> 00:18:41,988 It's just functions stored in files, which is honestly, that's another conversation 420 00:18:41,988 --> 00:18:46,848 where I like, if you write functional JavaScript, it's pretty much just object 421 00:18:46,848 --> 00:18:51,438 orientation, except like each file is your class. 422 00:18:51,438 --> 00:18:53,498 All the functions that are in there are your methods. 423 00:18:53,498 --> 00:18:57,918 And then all the, you know, just variables that you say, let, those are your 424 00:18:57,918 --> 00:19:03,078 properties and you pretty much have a class, you know, random nugget. 425 00:19:03,078 --> 00:19:04,622 But so in, 426 00:19:04,622 --> 00:19:09,922 In PHP, I'm doing like object oriented programming and this kind of like callback 427 00:19:09,922 --> 00:19:12,502 craziness just doesn't feel as natural for some reason. 428 00:19:12,502 --> 00:19:13,082 I don't know. 429 00:19:13,082 --> 00:19:16,102 Maybe that's why I haven't written code like that in the backend. 430 00:19:16,102 --> 00:19:16,322 Interesting. 431 00:19:16,322 --> 00:19:18,732 So is it like the kind of callbacky chaining thing? 432 00:19:18,732 --> 00:19:21,282 What makes it feel like you can do this kind of thing? 433 00:19:21,282 --> 00:19:23,252 So I think that's what makes it feel that way. 434 00:19:23,252 --> 00:19:27,492 Like that, like when I'm writing JavaScript, it's very free form and, and 435 00:19:27,492 --> 00:19:29,042 callbacky in that way. 436 00:19:29,042 --> 00:19:32,292 And in PHP for whatever reason, I just don't write code that way. 437 00:19:32,292 --> 00:19:33,902 And I think it's because things are up. 438 00:19:33,902 --> 00:19:36,432 like object oriented and more rigid. 439 00:19:36,432 --> 00:19:41,342 That would sort of make sense to me because like with OO you're sort of, I 440 00:19:41,342 --> 00:19:44,302 feel like the flow is not necessarily obvious. 441 00:19:44,502 --> 00:19:49,142 Like it's not clear that like A and then B and then C and then D happen a lot of the 442 00:19:49,142 --> 00:19:52,722 time because like any of these methods could be called by some external caller at 443 00:19:52,722 --> 00:19:53,192 any time. 444 00:19:53,192 --> 00:19:56,332 The state could be kind of anything when those things are called at any time. 445 00:19:56,332 --> 00:20:00,232 But if you have like a explicit, like these things are chained together in this 446 00:20:00,232 --> 00:20:03,296 way and the data is going to flow between them this way, that sort of... 447 00:20:03,296 --> 00:20:05,746 eloquenty kind of interface to me makes sense. 448 00:20:05,746 --> 00:20:07,846 Yeah, I think that captures it perfectly. 449 00:20:07,846 --> 00:20:08,306 Yep. 450 00:20:08,306 --> 00:20:09,866 I think that's why. 451 00:20:09,866 --> 00:20:12,116 How do you feel about functional versus OO? 452 00:20:12,116 --> 00:20:13,666 Any thoughts on that? 453 00:20:13,726 --> 00:20:16,776 Yeah, I sort of I'm not a functional programmer. 454 00:20:16,776 --> 00:20:21,906 I don't know the like capital F functional programming like fancy lambda stuff. 455 00:20:21,906 --> 00:20:23,646 Occasionally in JavaScript. 456 00:20:23,666 --> 00:20:24,966 Are you sure? 457 00:20:25,106 --> 00:20:29,136 I feel like I think I feel like functional programming has like a little bit of a 458 00:20:29,136 --> 00:20:33,386 scary reputation as being like maybe more than it is. 459 00:20:33,646 --> 00:20:35,046 Yeah, maybe I'm not sure. 460 00:20:35,046 --> 00:20:38,406 It's just like calling functions and passing data between them. 461 00:20:38,406 --> 00:20:41,166 In that sense, I'm a functional programmer. 462 00:20:41,166 --> 00:20:42,186 Yeah. 463 00:20:42,186 --> 00:20:42,556 Yeah. 464 00:20:42,556 --> 00:20:50,856 I guess I don't, you know, there's like a functional programmer that is like never 465 00:20:50,856 --> 00:20:53,096 writes or doesn't write a loop. 466 00:20:53,096 --> 00:20:54,026 Like there's no loop. 467 00:20:54,026 --> 00:20:55,116 It's just recursion. 468 00:20:55,116 --> 00:20:58,046 Like that kind of functional programming is like programming. 469 00:20:58,046 --> 00:20:59,306 I don't really do. 470 00:20:59,306 --> 00:21:01,946 That's like pattern matching all the way down. 471 00:21:01,946 --> 00:21:02,798 That's not. 472 00:21:02,798 --> 00:21:04,098 my programming. 473 00:21:04,618 --> 00:21:09,228 But when I'm writing JavaScript, it's pretty functional and I really like it. 474 00:21:09,228 --> 00:21:14,128 And there are, there are a lot of times where like, I'll wrap a callback in 475 00:21:14,128 --> 00:21:17,898 another callback and pass that around or decorate a callback with another one, or 476 00:21:17,898 --> 00:21:21,178 even occasionally, what do you call that? 477 00:21:21,178 --> 00:21:26,718 What's the term for basically taking a function and assigning parameters to it 478 00:21:26,718 --> 00:21:28,778 and then passing that as a new function? 479 00:21:28,778 --> 00:21:29,824 Kearning? 480 00:21:30,380 --> 00:21:31,500 Functional? 481 00:21:31,500 --> 00:21:32,830 No, that's right. 482 00:21:32,850 --> 00:21:34,690 It's functional. 483 00:21:34,930 --> 00:21:37,450 Are you talking about like partial application where you've sentenced some of 484 00:21:37,450 --> 00:21:38,370 the arguments? 485 00:21:38,370 --> 00:21:40,070 It's partial application, but whatever. 486 00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:41,870 There's some functional term for it. 487 00:21:41,870 --> 00:21:46,110 But yes, that's what I mean, like .bind in JavaScript where you can do that. 488 00:21:46,390 --> 00:21:49,120 And there's times where I'll do things like that. 489 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:51,150 I'm like, oh, that's pretty functional. 490 00:21:51,370 --> 00:21:52,730 Interesting. 491 00:21:52,930 --> 00:21:54,770 Yeah, I guess, yeah, that feels functional. 492 00:21:54,770 --> 00:21:57,230 I think to me is I could be wrong. 493 00:21:57,230 --> 00:22:00,060 I mean, like the functional programming zealots might. 494 00:22:00,334 --> 00:22:02,374 Tell me I'm wrong for this. 495 00:22:02,374 --> 00:22:05,814 But I feel like the sort of the big difference to me of like OO and functional 496 00:22:05,814 --> 00:22:12,244 is like, do you wrap up your data and the things that operate on that data into this 497 00:22:12,244 --> 00:22:14,774 like bag that is a class? 498 00:22:15,174 --> 00:22:18,654 And does it have state that changes over time and like the sort of methods are 499 00:22:18,654 --> 00:22:19,654 operating on that state? 500 00:22:19,654 --> 00:22:20,834 Okay, you're doing OO. 501 00:22:20,834 --> 00:22:24,054 And like, are you creating a graph of these objects and having them call things 502 00:22:24,054 --> 00:22:25,794 to each other and pass data around? 503 00:22:25,834 --> 00:22:27,914 Cool, you probably are doing OO. 504 00:22:28,154 --> 00:22:30,478 Do you, does your function, 505 00:22:30,478 --> 00:22:35,328 get all of its data passed in as arguments and then return data that goes somewhere 506 00:22:35,328 --> 00:22:38,318 else, you're probably doing functional programming. 507 00:22:38,558 --> 00:22:41,678 I feel like that's the main, in my head, that is the main divide. 508 00:22:41,678 --> 00:22:42,298 I like that. 509 00:22:42,298 --> 00:22:45,158 I think that's a very reasonable definition. 510 00:22:45,158 --> 00:22:46,698 Like that's a good handshake definition. 511 00:22:46,698 --> 00:22:50,008 Like, can we just like be like reasonable here and say that this is a distinction? 512 00:22:50,008 --> 00:22:53,498 Cause I think it is a totally legitimate distinction. 513 00:22:53,498 --> 00:22:57,488 And it is, I tweeted about this the other day that I really feel like two 514 00:22:57,488 --> 00:22:59,278 programmers pretty much every day. 515 00:22:59,278 --> 00:23:02,878 Because in PHP, I tend towards object orientation. 516 00:23:03,098 --> 00:23:06,138 And in JavaScript, I almost never write a class. 517 00:23:06,138 --> 00:23:10,218 Like I've refactored out pretty much every class in Alpine. 518 00:23:10,578 --> 00:23:12,688 And when I write JavaScript, it's just functions. 519 00:23:12,688 --> 00:23:14,988 It's very functional as you describe it. 520 00:23:14,988 --> 00:23:17,198 And in PHP, it's very object oriented. 521 00:23:17,198 --> 00:23:19,058 And I love both. 522 00:23:19,278 --> 00:23:22,238 It's like I have two different hats on for some reason. 523 00:23:22,238 --> 00:23:22,818 No, no. 524 00:23:22,818 --> 00:23:24,948 You have to pick a side and hate the other one. 525 00:23:24,948 --> 00:23:25,638 Do I? 526 00:23:25,638 --> 00:23:26,198 Right. 527 00:23:26,198 --> 00:23:28,110 I'm pretty sure that's required. 528 00:23:28,110 --> 00:23:30,270 Right, that is the way to do this. 529 00:23:30,510 --> 00:23:32,050 We're programmers. 530 00:23:32,050 --> 00:23:33,880 We're supposed to have strong opinions about this. 531 00:23:33,880 --> 00:23:36,340 I love, I imagine like you'd feel the same. 532 00:23:36,340 --> 00:23:36,720 I don't know. 533 00:23:36,720 --> 00:23:41,330 I love the rigidity of object orientation at times. 534 00:23:41,330 --> 00:23:47,870 And I also love the freeform nature of, you know, JavaScript functional 535 00:23:47,870 --> 00:23:48,990 programming. 536 00:23:49,250 --> 00:23:49,810 Gotcha. 537 00:23:49,810 --> 00:23:50,650 Yeah. 538 00:23:51,070 --> 00:23:58,158 I think I've been kind of radicalized by Rich Hickey and Clojure and just 539 00:23:58,158 --> 00:24:05,498 I think I'm on the functional programming is just tends to be simpler to understand, 540 00:24:05,898 --> 00:24:11,178 train, and that it's a good idea to have data that's immutable and to pass it 541 00:24:11,178 --> 00:24:16,868 between functions and to not build a big graph of constantly mutating objects with 542 00:24:16,868 --> 00:24:17,818 internal state. 543 00:24:17,818 --> 00:24:23,308 Yeah, I guess like mutability is one thing and the definition that we laid out of 544 00:24:23,308 --> 00:24:27,726 JavaScript doesn't always imply a mutability, you know, like there are... 545 00:24:27,726 --> 00:24:32,886 Um, yeah, but I mean, immutability, I definitely agree is, is a value. 546 00:24:32,886 --> 00:24:37,146 Um, it, Adam has been like working on this, like Tailwind Re -Reverber and I'm 547 00:24:37,146 --> 00:24:42,206 just watching his tweets and, um, and he's like, I don't know if you saw this tweet 548 00:24:42,206 --> 00:24:48,666 of his, that was, uh, like the, the noob, the brain, and then the Jedi, you know, 549 00:24:48,666 --> 00:24:54,246 and it was like mutable temporary variables, you know, for loops, whatever. 550 00:24:54,246 --> 00:24:56,430 And then like the, the big brain is like, 551 00:24:56,430 --> 00:24:59,610 immutability and, you know, pure functional, whatever. 552 00:24:59,610 --> 00:25:03,710 And then the Jedi is like mutability for loops. 553 00:25:03,710 --> 00:25:07,670 Cause he's talking about performance and how like immutability has like memory 554 00:25:07,670 --> 00:25:11,130 costs and you know, all of these function calls are costly. 555 00:25:11,130 --> 00:25:16,090 Like in, with like deep performance, mutability is more performant and doing 556 00:25:16,090 --> 00:25:20,690 like simple long functions that have like four loops instead of functional 557 00:25:20,690 --> 00:25:23,410 transformations and whatever is, I don't know. 558 00:25:23,410 --> 00:25:25,326 I thought it was interesting and it is like, 559 00:25:25,326 --> 00:25:29,476 randomly something that I have encountered with Alpine where like I try to use for 560 00:25:29,476 --> 00:25:32,766 loops in critical paths instead of functional transformations because they're 561 00:25:32,766 --> 00:25:35,776 just like cheaper they're faster and cheaper than like everything else, you 562 00:25:35,776 --> 00:25:37,156 know Mm -hmm. 563 00:25:37,156 --> 00:25:40,526 Yeah, I don't know but I'm with you Mm -hmm. 564 00:25:40,526 --> 00:25:44,896 Yeah, I can't remember if I told the story on the last pod but I taught briefly at a 565 00:25:44,896 --> 00:25:51,186 friend's programming boot camp and So I was exposed to like new developers for the 566 00:25:51,186 --> 00:25:55,118 first time in like a while and we gave them a program exercise 567 00:25:55,118 --> 00:25:58,878 And the goal is for them to learn proper object -oriented programming, because 568 00:25:58,878 --> 00:26:00,918 they're trying to learn Ruby and Rails. 569 00:26:01,378 --> 00:26:09,858 And I was surprised to learn that a huge percentage of people were basically just 570 00:26:09,858 --> 00:26:14,418 using class methods and passing data around between them and not instantiating 571 00:26:14,418 --> 00:26:17,658 anything and having no be static methods in it. 572 00:26:17,658 --> 00:26:18,108 Yeah. 573 00:26:18,108 --> 00:26:18,578 Exactly. 574 00:26:18,578 --> 00:26:21,258 So they were doing functional programming. 575 00:26:21,262 --> 00:26:25,122 Yeah, like they just had like there's no little no local instance data they were 576 00:26:25,122 --> 00:26:27,602 just like taking data and throwing into a function and then taking that and throwing 577 00:26:27,602 --> 00:26:31,422 into the next function and It was funny because I was like I get why you're doing 578 00:26:31,422 --> 00:26:33,992 this like it is Easier to understand. 579 00:26:33,992 --> 00:26:38,182 Yeah, and I'm here did I have to kind of teach you that like this is a bad habit 580 00:26:38,182 --> 00:26:41,812 actually in the pair in this paradigm that you've chosen and like I'm gonna show you 581 00:26:41,812 --> 00:26:45,802 how to do it in the OO way, but like It was interesting that the kind of beginner 582 00:26:45,802 --> 00:26:49,422 mind to programming reached for that 583 00:26:49,422 --> 00:26:50,002 approach. 584 00:26:50,002 --> 00:26:51,902 And I was like, yeah, I get it. 585 00:26:51,902 --> 00:26:52,722 That's fair. 586 00:26:52,722 --> 00:26:54,782 Like, that is that's kind of interesting. 587 00:26:54,782 --> 00:26:58,112 Like that that's there's some sort of you're saying like, this is like evidence 588 00:26:58,112 --> 00:27:02,922 that, that not only is like, it's just more intuitive, not only is it better in 589 00:27:02,922 --> 00:27:07,892 ways for like, reliability, it actually is more intuitive to understand that our 590 00:27:07,892 --> 00:27:11,102 evidence is these newcomers who just into it. 591 00:27:11,102 --> 00:27:16,852 But you're right that that I think that is a common thing is like, I remember early 592 00:27:16,852 --> 00:27:18,798 on hearing the advice like, 593 00:27:18,798 --> 00:27:23,638 don't use static methods because there's just the temptation so many times to just 594 00:27:23,638 --> 00:27:26,858 have to name a function that does something and you pass stuff in and you 595 00:27:26,858 --> 00:27:27,508 get something out. 596 00:27:27,508 --> 00:27:30,018 Like that's the most, that's like basic. 597 00:27:30,018 --> 00:27:35,818 I've like forgot about some of this stuff, but in, in the O O O O O bootcamp, it's 598 00:27:35,818 --> 00:27:41,318 like stop with the statics, you know, like we have the blueprints of the houses with 599 00:27:41,318 --> 00:27:42,894 the, you know, it's like, right. 600 00:27:42,894 --> 00:27:46,884 You need to make a class and I need to have data locally inside that class they 601 00:27:46,884 --> 00:27:49,734 need to call methods that operate on that and don't expose that data because it has 602 00:27:49,734 --> 00:27:54,854 to be secret and like right all the stuff is private and There is a lot of ceremony. 603 00:27:54,854 --> 00:27:59,724 Yeah, I just want to like be like value equals X and then I want to pass like this 604 00:27:59,724 --> 00:28:02,874 into the first function and up and get a new thing back I want to pass that into 605 00:28:02,874 --> 00:28:06,134 the next function and get a new thing back and I'll have the answer and I'm like I 606 00:28:06,134 --> 00:28:09,034 get you I see why you want to do this. 607 00:28:09,034 --> 00:28:11,344 Yes, that that's really funny. 608 00:28:11,344 --> 00:28:12,198 I 609 00:28:12,366 --> 00:28:17,306 Because that, I mean, OO is such a, has like a steep learning curve because of all 610 00:28:17,306 --> 00:28:20,106 of this extra ceremony that just isn't intuitive. 611 00:28:20,106 --> 00:28:24,766 And you're just like hitting people over the head with these like houses and car 612 00:28:24,766 --> 00:28:30,286 manufacturer analogies, like trying to get people to understand or to have an 613 00:28:30,286 --> 00:28:31,116 intuition for it. 614 00:28:31,116 --> 00:28:35,016 But it, yeah, it just doesn't, it doesn't, doesn't map that easily. 615 00:28:35,016 --> 00:28:40,106 I'm trying to think of instances where I like OO. 616 00:28:40,686 --> 00:28:41,936 And I do think it's better. 617 00:28:41,936 --> 00:28:45,096 I'm trying to think of things and I'm a little hard pressed. 618 00:28:45,096 --> 00:28:46,246 Here's one. 619 00:28:46,286 --> 00:28:47,706 Here's one for you. 620 00:28:47,706 --> 00:28:55,416 So in, uh, in live wires, JavaScript, there's like a request bus, you know? 621 00:28:55,416 --> 00:28:58,686 So if you think about like a component has to make a network request when it's 622 00:28:58,686 --> 00:29:03,216 updated to do that whole life cycle thing and that, that request has a whole life 623 00:29:03,216 --> 00:29:04,366 cycle of its own. 624 00:29:04,366 --> 00:29:07,534 And there might be multiple components on a page. 625 00:29:07,534 --> 00:29:11,264 that each need to be able to send requests, but then they potentially get 626 00:29:11,264 --> 00:29:15,064 bundled together into the same request if they happen at the same time to save on 627 00:29:15,064 --> 00:29:16,554 network resources. 628 00:29:17,314 --> 00:29:20,574 But their responses need to come back in the right order and everything. 629 00:29:20,574 --> 00:29:24,294 So there's a bus within a bus. 630 00:29:24,294 --> 00:29:28,964 There's an update bus for one component that can have multiple updates per network 631 00:29:28,964 --> 00:29:33,114 request, and then a request bus for multiple components. 632 00:29:33,314 --> 00:29:34,714 And these buses, 633 00:29:34,766 --> 00:29:39,266 These individual requests, I found, this is one of the few times I broke into OO. 634 00:29:39,266 --> 00:29:43,356 I created a class called like, one is called commit, like you're committing an 635 00:29:43,356 --> 00:29:46,306 update to the server and one is called request. 636 00:29:46,306 --> 00:29:50,446 And these have state, they have the updates that are going to the server. 637 00:29:50,446 --> 00:29:53,346 They have like all of OO type stuff. 638 00:29:53,346 --> 00:29:58,516 And then they know how to turn themselves into JSON payloads and they know how to 639 00:29:58,516 --> 00:30:00,696 handle their response and all this stuff. 640 00:30:00,696 --> 00:30:02,126 And I found it to be like, 641 00:30:02,126 --> 00:30:06,836 really nice and reliable instead of just free form like data flow to manage all 642 00:30:06,836 --> 00:30:08,106 this, you know? 643 00:30:08,766 --> 00:30:13,286 So I don't know, do you ever find yourself like with a heart still for objects? 644 00:30:14,786 --> 00:30:19,636 I do so much less programming now that I don't have like a great like recent answer 645 00:30:19,636 --> 00:30:20,366 to that. 646 00:30:20,366 --> 00:30:21,306 Yeah. 647 00:30:21,806 --> 00:30:25,506 So I like I mean, I I do have a love for Rails. 648 00:30:25,506 --> 00:30:29,026 So it's like I when I if I need to write a web app, I'm still I'm still going to use 649 00:30:29,026 --> 00:30:29,256 Rails. 650 00:30:29,256 --> 00:30:32,168 I'm not actually going to use like a closure web framework or something. 651 00:30:32,302 --> 00:30:39,002 So I guess it's sort of the case where I tend to write my, even within the OO 652 00:30:39,002 --> 00:30:41,402 paradigm, I tend to write my code fairly functionally. 653 00:30:41,402 --> 00:30:44,842 I'm trying to avoid mutations or side effects. 654 00:30:44,842 --> 00:30:48,842 I'm trying to have things typically be as pure as possible when I can. 655 00:30:49,722 --> 00:30:54,802 But real functional programming has never been tried. 656 00:30:54,922 --> 00:30:58,482 In practice, when I need to get stuff done, I'm usually just using OO. 657 00:30:58,482 --> 00:31:01,222 So it's the classic hypocrisy, I think. 658 00:31:01,550 --> 00:31:10,000 And I think to add onto your hypocrisy here, I think that functional, like you 659 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,130 saying like functional programming is easier to intuit. 660 00:31:12,130 --> 00:31:13,110 I totally agree. 661 00:31:13,110 --> 00:31:17,610 And I love that point about like people just tending towards static methods. 662 00:31:17,610 --> 00:31:22,690 But if they went to a functional bootcamp, they'd be telling them again, they'd, 663 00:31:22,690 --> 00:31:25,750 they'd want to reach for a for loop and they'd be like, no, no, you can't use a 664 00:31:25,750 --> 00:31:29,130 for loop, you know, or they would want to like create. 665 00:31:29,486 --> 00:31:33,426 I wouldn't say that for loops are banned in functional programming. 666 00:31:33,426 --> 00:31:35,946 Isn't there languages that don't have a loop? 667 00:31:35,946 --> 00:31:40,406 I'm trying to think of, is it like Elm doesn't have a loop? 668 00:31:40,706 --> 00:31:41,736 Elm might not, yeah. 669 00:31:41,736 --> 00:31:42,746 Maybe Elixir? 670 00:31:42,746 --> 00:31:44,366 I don't know. 671 00:31:44,866 --> 00:31:47,946 They'd be like, there's no loops. 672 00:31:49,186 --> 00:31:54,784 Maybe it's an Elixir, you would call a class method. 673 00:31:55,342 --> 00:31:59,852 And then that method would call itself until the parameters change and it would 674 00:31:59,852 --> 00:32:01,132 match a different method. 675 00:32:01,132 --> 00:32:03,382 And that's the exit out of the loop. 676 00:32:03,382 --> 00:32:08,322 And then they have to understand recursion and like, and having ensuring there are 677 00:32:08,322 --> 00:32:12,272 cases where the, where there's a, an exit for the recursion and that's its own level 678 00:32:12,272 --> 00:32:21,002 of, you know, and that whatever the, like all the names, like tuples and tuples and 679 00:32:21,002 --> 00:32:24,670 yeah, parameter assignment and. 680 00:32:24,736 --> 00:32:30,206 lambdas and whatever those other funny words are that no one understands thunks. 681 00:32:30,206 --> 00:32:31,426 Yeah, thunks. 682 00:32:31,426 --> 00:32:32,186 I don't know. 683 00:32:32,186 --> 00:32:35,396 But anyway, I'm sure there's like a whole other ceremony that if they went to the 684 00:32:35,396 --> 00:32:38,386 functional boot camp, they'd be like, yeah, is this I just want to write a 685 00:32:38,386 --> 00:32:39,606 class, you know? 686 00:32:39,606 --> 00:32:39,896 Yeah. 687 00:32:39,896 --> 00:32:42,916 And I don't think like, oh, beginners understand this really fast is actually a 688 00:32:42,916 --> 00:32:44,766 great argument for programming language design. 689 00:32:44,766 --> 00:32:45,286 OK. 690 00:32:45,286 --> 00:32:47,366 You know, it's like it's a it's a factor. 691 00:32:47,366 --> 00:32:48,046 Interesting. 692 00:32:48,046 --> 00:32:49,726 Like ease of adoption is one thing. 693 00:32:49,726 --> 00:32:53,288 But really, I think you actually want like. 694 00:32:53,494 --> 00:32:58,114 intermediates to experts to be extremely productive and that's kind of the better 695 00:32:58,114 --> 00:33:00,774 like score to grade on. 696 00:33:00,794 --> 00:33:04,424 So yes, for sure newbies would trip up on other on new things, different things, 697 00:33:04,424 --> 00:33:05,574 most likely. 698 00:33:05,974 --> 00:33:11,234 So how do you feel about like C family languages, like all of these, you know, 699 00:33:11,234 --> 00:33:17,484 PHP and JavaScript and things that are like C family that have all the stuff we 700 00:33:17,484 --> 00:33:21,094 know, you know, like functions and. 701 00:33:21,646 --> 00:33:24,966 variables and you know things like that where these functional languages are I 702 00:33:24,966 --> 00:33:30,936 would consider them not see family languages do you think that like That at a 703 00:33:30,936 --> 00:33:35,526 certain level a code base is harmed or a programmer is harmed by some of the 704 00:33:35,526 --> 00:33:41,436 offerings of a C family language Guess it I'm not sure so like if if we're talking 705 00:33:41,436 --> 00:33:47,516 like malloc level things like we say you know what malloc is Yes, it's memory 706 00:33:47,516 --> 00:33:49,836 allocation and see oh, okay. 707 00:33:49,836 --> 00:33:51,470 That's one of those words that I've 708 00:33:51,470 --> 00:33:54,350 only read the spelling, you know? 709 00:33:54,350 --> 00:33:55,250 Yeah, yeah. 710 00:33:55,250 --> 00:33:58,260 Like I used to say, Tutter real, like random stuff like that. 711 00:33:58,260 --> 00:33:59,030 Oh, interesting. 712 00:33:59,030 --> 00:33:59,490 Yeah. 713 00:33:59,490 --> 00:34:00,490 Yeah. 714 00:34:00,490 --> 00:34:00,900 Yeah. 715 00:34:00,900 --> 00:34:05,410 So like, I think there were design choices made that have caused like innumerable 716 00:34:05,410 --> 00:34:06,450 bugs. 717 00:34:06,450 --> 00:34:11,680 Like nil being a thing, for example, is like the trillion dollar design mistake. 718 00:34:11,680 --> 00:34:17,370 I would people say, and I agree with manual memory management, you know, if you 719 00:34:17,370 --> 00:34:18,030 really need it. 720 00:34:18,030 --> 00:34:18,280 Sure. 721 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,794 But it's pretty, pretty error prone. 722 00:34:21,262 --> 00:34:23,902 So yes, there's there's lots of sharp edges. 723 00:34:23,902 --> 00:34:26,502 I'm not here to say that everything should be written in functional functional 724 00:34:26,502 --> 00:34:27,792 languages, right? 725 00:34:27,792 --> 00:34:32,402 I just think if I My forever language is definitely functional. 726 00:34:32,402 --> 00:34:38,452 I think For me for like the things that I want to do generally They're like sort of 727 00:34:38,452 --> 00:34:42,462 like my retirement language like what I will like retire to write my beautiful 728 00:34:42,462 --> 00:34:49,134 Yeah, conceptually pure Satisfying to my brain and my soul kind of 729 00:34:49,134 --> 00:34:52,394 code is going to be in some sort of functional language, probably a Lisp, 730 00:34:52,394 --> 00:34:54,794 because there's wonderful things about those languages. 731 00:34:54,934 --> 00:34:59,054 But yeah, I don't need to like have everyone agree with me or do that too for 732 00:34:59,054 --> 00:35:00,214 all their work. 733 00:35:00,794 --> 00:35:07,314 I will say that I'm like acutely aware of how often I step on the rake of like 734 00:35:07,314 --> 00:35:10,254 calling blank on undefined or something, you know, something like that. 735 00:35:10,254 --> 00:35:16,764 How those nulls and undefined leak into my runtime code in both PHP and JavaScript is 736 00:35:16,764 --> 00:35:18,542 kind of alarming and 737 00:35:18,542 --> 00:35:23,382 And I think some of it is just, you're so used to it that you don't identify it as 738 00:35:23,382 --> 00:35:25,422 like a problem that's avoidable. 739 00:35:25,422 --> 00:35:29,322 Like there are languages that don't have runtime errors. 740 00:35:29,322 --> 00:35:31,942 They definitely don't have runtime errors like that, you know? 741 00:35:31,942 --> 00:35:32,282 Right. 742 00:35:32,282 --> 00:35:32,822 Yeah. 743 00:35:32,822 --> 00:35:33,822 At least that one. 744 00:35:33,822 --> 00:35:34,142 Yeah. 745 00:35:34,142 --> 00:35:38,222 And that, that one's like kind of a solved problem in like, in certain languages, 746 00:35:38,222 --> 00:35:41,082 which is the thing where it's like, you know, if you, if you have an optional type 747 00:35:41,082 --> 00:35:44,792 that you always have to unwrap, you will never accidentally like blow up in that 748 00:35:44,792 --> 00:35:45,162 way. 749 00:35:45,162 --> 00:35:45,652 Right. 750 00:35:45,652 --> 00:35:46,222 And. 751 00:35:46,222 --> 00:35:47,732 That's pretty nice. 752 00:35:47,732 --> 00:35:49,802 That's a pretty good win right there. 753 00:35:49,802 --> 00:35:53,262 And so to just not have that support at the language level is kind of like, that's 754 00:35:53,262 --> 00:35:54,322 too bad. 755 00:35:55,342 --> 00:35:55,522 Yeah. 756 00:35:55,522 --> 00:36:00,112 Mutability feels similar, like immutable data structures, I think, also prevent a 757 00:36:00,112 --> 00:36:01,722 big class of errors. 758 00:36:02,902 --> 00:36:07,502 So there are things that I think are nice to have that are too bad that aren't 759 00:36:07,502 --> 00:36:08,462 everywhere. 760 00:36:09,062 --> 00:36:10,762 Yeah, I think I agree. 761 00:36:10,762 --> 00:36:13,742 And I don't consider myself an academic programmer. 762 00:36:13,742 --> 00:36:15,662 I very much feel like I'm surfing. 763 00:36:15,662 --> 00:36:18,982 Like I'm just kind of taking it as it comes and doing what feels right. 764 00:36:18,982 --> 00:36:23,162 And I think sometimes that probably benefits me and sometimes it harms me by 765 00:36:23,162 --> 00:36:28,972 not like really exploring or like being rigorous about some of the like rakes I'm 766 00:36:28,972 --> 00:36:30,502 stepping on, you know? 767 00:36:31,202 --> 00:36:31,502 All right. 768 00:36:31,502 --> 00:36:33,422 I want to hit you with some some questions. 769 00:36:33,422 --> 00:36:35,722 Let's do some some one offs. 770 00:36:35,722 --> 00:36:36,102 All right. 771 00:36:36,102 --> 00:36:40,162 How do you start something complicated? 772 00:36:40,322 --> 00:36:43,602 If you're like built like building something hard, you're not quite sure how 773 00:36:43,602 --> 00:36:44,192 it's going to look. 774 00:36:44,192 --> 00:36:45,454 Are you a? 775 00:36:45,454 --> 00:36:47,734 Do you like start with a prototype? 776 00:36:47,734 --> 00:36:50,134 Do you build a small sandbox example? 777 00:36:50,134 --> 00:36:51,654 Do you sketch on a whiteboard? 778 00:36:51,654 --> 00:36:55,134 Do you have a notebook with words, diagrams? 779 00:36:55,134 --> 00:36:57,434 How do you start getting the lay of the land and figuring out like how to make 780 00:36:57,434 --> 00:36:58,374 progress? 781 00:36:59,234 --> 00:37:01,254 It's all of the above. 782 00:37:01,574 --> 00:37:07,784 I think I, yeah, I'm very like sporadic and inconsistent in my approach to that 783 00:37:07,784 --> 00:37:09,034 kind of thing. 784 00:37:09,034 --> 00:37:14,054 Cause it's really like what feels like I have the best chance of... 785 00:37:14,318 --> 00:37:18,948 of getting to the hard parts, I guess, and like rooting out some clarity in the 786 00:37:18,948 --> 00:37:19,878 obscurity. 787 00:37:19,878 --> 00:37:24,188 So I always have a notebook on my desk and I found like this, I've gone through a 788 00:37:24,188 --> 00:37:25,498 bunch of different techniques. 789 00:37:25,498 --> 00:37:31,238 Over the years I've realized pen and paper is crucial to my everyday. 790 00:37:31,318 --> 00:37:34,598 And I used to have just stacks of paper everywhere. 791 00:37:34,598 --> 00:37:36,178 And so that was pretty unwieldy. 792 00:37:36,178 --> 00:37:41,088 So I bought like a paper roll to put, to like mount on my desk and just pull up 793 00:37:41,088 --> 00:37:42,446 like butcher paper. 794 00:37:42,446 --> 00:37:44,626 and then my whole desk is a piece of paper. 795 00:37:44,626 --> 00:37:49,586 Yeah, because like whiteboards, they're, for a handful of reasons, they just 796 00:37:49,586 --> 00:37:51,376 haven't worked for me in making a whole desk a whiteboard. 797 00:37:51,376 --> 00:37:52,076 I've done that. 798 00:37:52,076 --> 00:37:56,606 Like IKEA has like a whiteboard table that I've used as a desk in the past. 799 00:37:56,846 --> 00:37:58,606 So this I really like. 800 00:37:58,606 --> 00:38:02,486 And the coolest part is you keep a ledger of everything you've written. 801 00:38:02,486 --> 00:38:07,586 So all these little like notes and to -dos, as you pull more slack, in a perfect 802 00:38:07,586 --> 00:38:10,126 world, you have a second roll that you roll up. 803 00:38:10,126 --> 00:38:12,006 But I just have like, 804 00:38:12,014 --> 00:38:14,654 you know, 50 feet of paper. 805 00:38:15,254 --> 00:38:21,654 So, but like last month I decided that this is too messy and there's too much 806 00:38:21,654 --> 00:38:22,974 paper in my office. 807 00:38:22,974 --> 00:38:24,954 So I've just switched to a notebook. 808 00:38:24,954 --> 00:38:28,114 I'll just a spiral like, I'm sad. 809 00:38:28,114 --> 00:38:29,404 That was such a cool idea. 810 00:38:29,404 --> 00:38:29,964 I love that. 811 00:38:29,964 --> 00:38:34,364 And it was nice because you could get that feeling of like a beautiful clean desk and 812 00:38:34,364 --> 00:38:38,382 workspace and thought space every time you pull off like another chunk. 813 00:38:38,382 --> 00:38:41,942 but I couldn't get the infrastructure dialed in and I was too lazy to like do it 814 00:38:41,942 --> 00:38:42,522 well. 815 00:38:42,522 --> 00:38:44,882 This is an indie business waiting to happen. 816 00:38:44,882 --> 00:38:49,422 Honestly, I think it would be, I thought like really hard about like the different, 817 00:38:49,422 --> 00:38:54,252 like just for an MVP, I could use like a paint roller thing and like put the roll 818 00:38:54,252 --> 00:38:58,762 on the paint roller at the end of my desk as like the axle and just roll up on each 819 00:38:58,762 --> 00:38:59,302 end. 820 00:38:59,302 --> 00:39:00,242 Yeah. 821 00:39:00,242 --> 00:39:04,382 I mean, I like the, I love the sound of like a big, a big swath of it. 822 00:39:04,382 --> 00:39:06,242 So it can be like really wide. 823 00:39:06,242 --> 00:39:06,982 Yeah. 824 00:39:06,982 --> 00:39:07,662 And. 825 00:39:07,662 --> 00:39:10,542 I like the idea of like your history is retained because you're just kind of 826 00:39:10,542 --> 00:39:12,512 rolling it onto the other the other rollers. 827 00:39:12,512 --> 00:39:15,832 You're like, even if you never go look at it, you're like, you just have that like 828 00:39:15,832 --> 00:39:17,492 comfort of like, OK, I know I can go back. 829 00:39:17,492 --> 00:39:18,482 It's in there. 830 00:39:18,482 --> 00:39:21,992 And when you want a new when you're ready for a new thing, you just like roll, roll, 831 00:39:21,992 --> 00:39:27,482 roll, roll big blank wide sheet of beautiful opportunity. 832 00:39:28,062 --> 00:39:28,662 Do this. 833 00:39:28,662 --> 00:39:28,882 Great. 834 00:39:28,882 --> 00:39:29,602 It's awesome. 835 00:39:29,602 --> 00:39:34,952 You make this the little tea mug like circle stains and then and then you roll 836 00:39:34,952 --> 00:39:35,922 it and then they're all gone. 837 00:39:35,922 --> 00:39:36,974 It's like. 838 00:39:36,974 --> 00:39:39,114 Yeah, it's beautiful. 839 00:39:39,114 --> 00:39:40,294 So I actually did. 840 00:39:40,294 --> 00:39:40,674 Yeah. 841 00:39:40,674 --> 00:39:41,004 All right. 842 00:39:41,004 --> 00:39:41,814 Let's do it. 843 00:39:41,814 --> 00:39:42,464 We'll do it. 844 00:39:42,464 --> 00:39:43,154 We'll make it. 845 00:39:43,154 --> 00:39:44,834 We'll get a monk to make it. 846 00:39:44,834 --> 00:39:45,874 Yeah, exactly. 847 00:39:45,874 --> 00:39:47,154 This is not my product. 848 00:39:47,154 --> 00:39:48,614 Yeah, they'll do that. 849 00:39:48,614 --> 00:39:49,654 And that'll be great. 850 00:39:49,654 --> 00:39:54,434 So that, I mean, really gets to the heart of most of work for me is like everything 851 00:39:54,434 --> 00:39:57,394 is very free form because that's my personality. 852 00:39:57,394 --> 00:39:59,954 So having a free forms. 853 00:39:59,954 --> 00:40:01,234 So now it's a notebook. 854 00:40:01,374 --> 00:40:01,614 Yeah. 855 00:40:01,614 --> 00:40:04,074 And that works pretty much just as well. 856 00:40:04,074 --> 00:40:06,094 So a notebook. 857 00:40:06,094 --> 00:40:11,054 And, uh, but I guess like, what's an interesting thing that here's a tool that 858 00:40:11,054 --> 00:40:14,324 I don't do often enough when I'm on my best behavior I do, but I've like firmly 859 00:40:14,324 --> 00:40:21,324 believe that this is the best way to suss out or to like explore an idea or fix a 860 00:40:21,324 --> 00:40:22,574 bug or pretty much anything. 861 00:40:22,574 --> 00:40:27,984 Write a blog post, like a publishable blog post to yourself that you would send to 862 00:40:27,984 --> 00:40:30,614 somebody whose time you care about immensely. 863 00:40:30,614 --> 00:40:33,684 Write that blog post. 864 00:40:34,126 --> 00:40:36,666 and you will have solved all your problems properly. 865 00:40:36,666 --> 00:40:40,926 Almost every, if it's a bug, I almost guarantee by the time you're finished with 866 00:40:40,926 --> 00:40:44,876 the blog post explaining the bug thoroughly enough, you solved it almost 867 00:40:44,876 --> 00:40:46,176 every time. 868 00:40:46,176 --> 00:40:49,406 And same goes for new features. 869 00:40:49,406 --> 00:40:53,286 Like I personally want to just jump into the code and start hacking. 870 00:40:53,286 --> 00:40:57,256 I want to do that, but I have to like, so I do that when I'm not on my best 871 00:40:57,256 --> 00:41:02,276 behavior, when I am on my best behavior, I'm rigorously writing out a blog post 872 00:41:02,276 --> 00:41:03,822 that I would be proud to publish. 873 00:41:03,822 --> 00:41:06,362 That's so good. 874 00:41:06,362 --> 00:41:07,362 I love that. 875 00:41:07,362 --> 00:41:10,062 Apparently Amazon does this for new product launches. 876 00:41:10,242 --> 00:41:13,722 It's like you have to start with like write the announcement to the customers 877 00:41:13,722 --> 00:41:14,602 that this thing is shipped. 878 00:41:14,602 --> 00:41:15,282 Oh, cool. 879 00:41:15,282 --> 00:41:15,682 Nice. 880 00:41:15,682 --> 00:41:16,182 Yeah. 881 00:41:16,182 --> 00:41:19,622 Documentation first kind of development. 882 00:41:19,622 --> 00:41:19,862 Yeah. 883 00:41:19,862 --> 00:41:21,292 The read me driven design. 884 00:41:21,292 --> 00:41:22,362 Read me driven design. 885 00:41:22,362 --> 00:41:22,562 Yeah. 886 00:41:22,562 --> 00:41:22,902 Yeah. 887 00:41:22,902 --> 00:41:25,082 All that kind of stuff really. 888 00:41:25,242 --> 00:41:27,742 Yeah, it's incredibly valuable. 889 00:41:27,742 --> 00:41:28,412 It's such an interesting. 890 00:41:28,412 --> 00:41:30,102 It's an interesting brain hack like that. 891 00:41:30,102 --> 00:41:32,882 It kind of feels like that shouldn't work so well. 892 00:41:32,882 --> 00:41:33,390 It's like 893 00:41:33,390 --> 00:41:39,460 I just like it's kind of like it lets you figure it out by just like if you just 894 00:41:39,460 --> 00:41:42,980 think about the end state, your brain is going to work backwards and figure out all 895 00:41:42,980 --> 00:41:44,830 these intermediate steps and make your life easier. 896 00:41:44,830 --> 00:41:49,110 Yeah, it's like skipping the hard part is the best thing to do. 897 00:41:49,110 --> 00:41:49,890 Yeah, really? 898 00:41:49,890 --> 00:41:51,180 It's like, why that works? 899 00:41:51,180 --> 00:41:51,590 Wow. 900 00:41:51,590 --> 00:41:51,820 OK. 901 00:41:51,820 --> 00:41:55,510 Skipping the part that should like reveal everything to you is actually it's like 902 00:41:55,510 --> 00:41:56,974 that's like more harmful. 903 00:41:56,974 --> 00:41:59,954 Pretending you just have this magic wand and the thing is done. 904 00:41:59,954 --> 00:42:02,784 Yeah, you just talk about it and your brain is like, ah, yes We know how to make 905 00:42:02,784 --> 00:42:04,074 this no problem. 906 00:42:04,074 --> 00:42:04,854 Yep. 907 00:42:04,854 --> 00:42:11,034 Yeah that I mean in that like meta concept of starting end first is like Just such a 908 00:42:11,034 --> 00:42:14,934 programming truth for me like even down the class you're about to make or the 909 00:42:14,934 --> 00:42:18,234 function, you know Just API first, you know, absolutely. 910 00:42:18,234 --> 00:42:21,504 Yeah test driven development did that for me I've just been like let's assume this 911 00:42:21,504 --> 00:42:24,154 is here and it works and let's write a test for it. 912 00:42:24,154 --> 00:42:25,814 That's another form of that. 913 00:42:25,814 --> 00:42:26,574 Yep 914 00:42:26,574 --> 00:42:27,254 Totally. 915 00:42:27,254 --> 00:42:28,864 I think it worked in the macro and the micro. 916 00:42:28,864 --> 00:42:30,894 It's just like a really powerful tool. 917 00:42:30,894 --> 00:42:31,514 Agreed. 918 00:42:31,514 --> 00:42:32,634 That's one of those. 919 00:42:32,634 --> 00:42:36,544 I'm always, I don't have like a perfect log of this anywhere, but I'm wondering if 920 00:42:36,544 --> 00:42:37,154 you're similar. 921 00:42:37,154 --> 00:42:39,344 Like I come across something like that in a conversation. 922 00:42:39,344 --> 00:42:42,474 I go, that's a fundamental truth to me. 923 00:42:42,474 --> 00:42:46,554 Like as close as you can get to truth is like, this is something I want, you know, 924 00:42:46,554 --> 00:42:48,534 inscribed on my wall or something. 925 00:42:48,534 --> 00:42:50,014 So I'll create these. 926 00:42:50,014 --> 00:42:55,134 At one point it was a field notes of like core beliefs and like practical beliefs, 927 00:42:55,134 --> 00:42:56,398 not like a, 928 00:42:56,398 --> 00:43:00,638 ethereal beliefs, like things like this, but it never stuck. 929 00:43:00,638 --> 00:43:06,918 And just today I made a new Trello column called Core Values and put in it every day 930 00:43:06,918 --> 00:43:11,978 is day one, like sort of the Jeff Bezos, like Amazon, like, uh, whatever. 931 00:43:11,978 --> 00:43:16,758 I have a whole, a whole other reason for believing in that as a core truth, but, 932 00:43:16,758 --> 00:43:18,098 um, I don't know. 933 00:43:18,098 --> 00:43:22,658 I just feel like we, we struck one of those chords and you go like, Oh, that's, 934 00:43:22,658 --> 00:43:23,458 that's a big one. 935 00:43:23,458 --> 00:43:24,678 Don't forget that. 936 00:43:24,678 --> 00:43:26,254 You know, totally. 937 00:43:26,254 --> 00:43:30,394 Yeah, Nat Friedman has a website, it's like one of the best personal websites 938 00:43:30,394 --> 00:43:31,004 I've ever seen. 939 00:43:31,004 --> 00:43:31,814 Really? 940 00:43:31,814 --> 00:43:35,694 And on it is something like 30 things that he believes. 941 00:43:35,694 --> 00:43:38,334 And it's just like bullet points in Times New Roman. 942 00:43:38,674 --> 00:43:42,174 And it's just like a collection of those kind of core values that he's sort of 943 00:43:42,174 --> 00:43:43,714 distilled from his experience. 944 00:43:43,734 --> 00:43:47,194 And sounds like that one would be on yours. 945 00:43:47,194 --> 00:43:47,734 Yep. 946 00:43:47,734 --> 00:43:49,094 Yeah, that would be on there. 947 00:43:49,094 --> 00:43:51,470 I mean, you didn't ask and we didn't... 948 00:43:51,470 --> 00:43:54,700 go there with beliefs and we could go on a giant tangent, but another one that comes 949 00:43:54,700 --> 00:43:59,050 to mind that's like an age old, make the change easy than, or make the change easy 950 00:43:59,050 --> 00:44:03,110 than make the easy change is like, put that on my tombstone like that. 951 00:44:03,110 --> 00:44:07,730 This is one that is an undisputable truth, you know? 952 00:44:08,090 --> 00:44:10,330 Is that that way for you as well? 953 00:44:11,170 --> 00:44:12,690 Oh yeah, that's a great one. 954 00:44:12,690 --> 00:44:13,190 Yeah. 955 00:44:13,190 --> 00:44:17,070 And I love Kent Beck's, I don't know if he originally formulated this, but like his 956 00:44:17,070 --> 00:44:20,750 tweet where he says, you know, first make the change easy. 957 00:44:20,750 --> 00:44:25,390 note, maybe hard, then make the easy change. 958 00:44:25,390 --> 00:44:28,310 I really appreciate that kind of like it's a good note. 959 00:44:28,310 --> 00:44:33,500 By the way, by the way, the hard part actually might is likely in this first 960 00:44:33,500 --> 00:44:34,210 part here. 961 00:44:34,210 --> 00:44:35,050 Right. 962 00:44:35,050 --> 00:44:38,310 But if you can do the hard part, then the next thing is easy. 963 00:44:38,310 --> 00:44:45,860 I like that a lot because so I the nice thing about making the change easy is that 964 00:44:45,860 --> 00:44:49,070 it looks like a really clean refactoring pull request. 965 00:44:50,222 --> 00:44:53,812 It's just like I can start with just one piece of it and just say like, all right, 966 00:44:53,812 --> 00:44:55,622 the first thing I'm going to do is make this change easy. 967 00:44:55,622 --> 00:44:59,512 And so to do that, I'm going to pull these three, three separate things that would 968 00:44:59,512 --> 00:45:01,842 need to change into one place. 969 00:45:02,062 --> 00:45:07,512 And then that's its own PR and the code base is now likely better, regardless of 970 00:45:07,512 --> 00:45:09,762 whether I now make the easy change or not. 971 00:45:10,042 --> 00:45:10,212 Yeah. 972 00:45:10,212 --> 00:45:10,422 Yeah. 973 00:45:10,422 --> 00:45:12,132 It, it, it is a beautiful thing. 974 00:45:12,132 --> 00:45:17,032 And I've like, I try to remind myself that at times that like I should, you know, 975 00:45:17,032 --> 00:45:18,862 when I make the change easy, I should ship. 976 00:45:18,862 --> 00:45:21,122 making the change easy before I make the easy change. 977 00:45:21,122 --> 00:45:26,482 Cause actually just straight up tagging a release in between those two makes you 978 00:45:26,482 --> 00:45:28,642 feel more confident about it. 979 00:45:28,642 --> 00:45:32,242 And it gives you an opportunity to, to really like vet out any bugs that might, 980 00:45:32,242 --> 00:45:37,142 it, yeah, it takes something that was like really kind of daring and turns it into 981 00:45:37,142 --> 00:45:42,902 two reasonable steps, a refactor that maintains, you know, like parody and then 982 00:45:42,902 --> 00:45:43,854 a new addition that. 983 00:45:43,854 --> 00:45:46,514 isn't dangerous because the infrastructure is already in place. 984 00:45:46,514 --> 00:45:50,424 And it's easier for a reviewer to look at and be like, OK, there should be zero 985 00:45:50,424 --> 00:45:51,274 behavior changes here. 986 00:45:51,274 --> 00:45:52,674 No test should fail. 987 00:45:52,674 --> 00:45:53,694 Nothing should be new. 988 00:45:53,694 --> 00:45:54,444 Nothing should be different. 989 00:45:54,444 --> 00:45:56,994 I'm just looking at this code and making sure it used to work like this. 990 00:45:56,994 --> 00:45:58,934 It still works just like this. 991 00:45:58,934 --> 00:46:00,994 And that's a pretty easy PR to review. 992 00:46:00,994 --> 00:46:02,814 And then now you make the easy change. 993 00:46:02,814 --> 00:46:03,824 It's like, well, this is an easy change. 994 00:46:03,824 --> 00:46:04,894 This is easy to think about, too. 995 00:46:04,894 --> 00:46:08,314 I can just see you're just changing this one place where you pulled all the stuff 996 00:46:08,314 --> 00:46:08,774 into one place. 997 00:46:08,774 --> 00:46:10,134 And now you're changing in that one place. 998 00:46:10,134 --> 00:46:10,854 Looks good to me. 999 00:46:10,854 --> 00:46:14,000 And they're both individually easy to review changes. 1000 00:46:14,062 --> 00:46:17,522 If you jam them together, it gets more tricky. 1001 00:46:17,522 --> 00:46:18,462 You're more likely to do stuff, I think. 1002 00:46:18,462 --> 00:46:18,542 Yes. 1003 00:46:18,542 --> 00:46:22,522 It's funny because it takes one really tricky thing, like a pull request that 1004 00:46:22,522 --> 00:46:24,892 changes everything and does something big, and turns it in. 1005 00:46:24,892 --> 00:46:29,202 It takes one dangerous thing and turns it into two safe things instead of two less 1006 00:46:29,202 --> 00:46:31,082 dangerous things, in a sense. 1007 00:46:31,082 --> 00:46:35,172 It just feels like that, which is asymmetric in some way that I think is 1008 00:46:35,172 --> 00:46:36,082 cool. 1009 00:46:36,082 --> 00:46:36,642 Totally. 1010 00:46:36,642 --> 00:46:38,542 And rings of truth. 1011 00:46:39,082 --> 00:46:40,722 More values, yeah. 1012 00:46:40,722 --> 00:46:41,806 Nice. 1013 00:46:41,806 --> 00:46:44,896 On that just randomly to just totally blow that one up. 1014 00:46:44,896 --> 00:46:49,146 These truths to me like almost always have applications outside of programming. 1015 00:46:49,146 --> 00:46:53,646 If they're like big truths like that and like cigarette smoking, like if you just 1016 00:46:53,646 --> 00:46:56,766 try to quit, but you still hang out with smokers, like it's just really hard. 1017 00:46:56,766 --> 00:47:00,676 But like if you make the change easy and fire all your smoker friends, I don't know 1018 00:47:00,676 --> 00:47:02,106 what it's bad example. 1019 00:47:02,106 --> 00:47:05,506 Like now it's really easy to quit smoking or something, you know, things like that. 1020 00:47:05,506 --> 00:47:09,866 That's like, this really is a core truth to apply to life in so many ways. 1021 00:47:09,866 --> 00:47:11,726 Change your environment, you know. 1022 00:47:11,726 --> 00:47:12,306 Totally. 1023 00:47:12,306 --> 00:47:13,506 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 1024 00:47:13,506 --> 00:47:18,836 I like the idea of like when faced with a complicated, like a tough thing, asking 1025 00:47:18,836 --> 00:47:20,386 first, like what would make this easy? 1026 00:47:20,386 --> 00:47:21,486 Yes. 1027 00:47:21,486 --> 00:47:23,616 If something were like, what would be, what could be true that would make this 1028 00:47:23,616 --> 00:47:24,246 thing easy? 1029 00:47:24,246 --> 00:47:24,806 Absolutely. 1030 00:47:24,806 --> 00:47:25,766 And maybe just do that. 1031 00:47:25,766 --> 00:47:26,686 And then it's not so scary. 1032 00:47:26,686 --> 00:47:28,226 You're not like, well, I'm not quitting smoking. 1033 00:47:28,226 --> 00:47:29,486 I'm just. 1034 00:47:29,486 --> 00:47:30,596 I'm setting myself up. 1035 00:47:30,596 --> 00:47:31,786 I'm changing my environment. 1036 00:47:31,786 --> 00:47:32,106 Yeah. 1037 00:47:32,106 --> 00:47:35,206 I'm just going to throw this pack away and I'm going to not make, I'm going to make 1038 00:47:35,206 --> 00:47:37,946 different plans on this time when I normally would do it or whatever it is. 1039 00:47:37,946 --> 00:47:38,126 Right. 1040 00:47:38,126 --> 00:47:39,886 Or ridiculous things like what. 1041 00:47:39,886 --> 00:47:42,386 what could be true that would make me stop smoking? 1042 00:47:42,386 --> 00:47:48,676 Like, let's say I, uh, didn't have access to cigarettes or something like, cause I'm 1043 00:47:48,676 --> 00:47:49,516 on a camping trip. 1044 00:47:49,516 --> 00:47:50,266 I don't know. 1045 00:47:50,266 --> 00:47:52,926 It's like, I could take that camping trip or traveling. 1046 00:47:52,926 --> 00:47:58,766 Like let's say, or, or let's say you're like, you hide cigarettes from your dad or 1047 00:47:58,766 --> 00:47:59,646 something. 1048 00:47:59,706 --> 00:48:00,826 Go on a trip with your dad. 1049 00:48:00,826 --> 00:48:01,556 You know, I don't know. 1050 00:48:01,556 --> 00:48:05,696 Like if you need to not smoke for two weeks, like book that trip that that will 1051 00:48:05,696 --> 00:48:09,266 make that an impossibility, you know, I don't know. 1052 00:48:09,582 --> 00:48:13,812 That's a very specific example, but it applies to, I think you put it perfectly 1053 00:48:13,812 --> 00:48:16,742 is like, what's the thing that's hard that you're trying to do? 1054 00:48:16,742 --> 00:48:20,242 Like if what could be true that would make it easy, what does it take to make that 1055 00:48:20,242 --> 00:48:20,842 thing true? 1056 00:48:20,842 --> 00:48:22,002 You know? 1057 00:48:22,222 --> 00:48:22,542 Yeah. 1058 00:48:22,542 --> 00:48:23,042 Nice. 1059 00:48:23,042 --> 00:48:23,922 Yeah. 1060 00:48:24,722 --> 00:48:24,952 All right. 1061 00:48:24,952 --> 00:48:27,542 So what's so on your desk, you're getting, you're getting work done. 1062 00:48:27,542 --> 00:48:30,462 You're flowing, you have a notebook these days. 1063 00:48:30,462 --> 00:48:33,362 Do you have a notebook brand or type that you're like really into? 1064 00:48:33,362 --> 00:48:35,102 I forget where I read this. 1065 00:48:35,102 --> 00:48:35,374 Oh, 1066 00:48:35,374 --> 00:48:37,544 This YouTuber guy, I'm not going to remember his name. 1067 00:48:37,544 --> 00:48:42,614 He's like a entrepreneurship YouTuber guy and he's like pucca pads. 1068 00:48:42,614 --> 00:48:46,174 And so I was like, I just needed a brand to latch onto for a notebook. 1069 00:48:46,174 --> 00:48:50,504 So I just chose this guy's brand and there he believes in them and thinks they're 1070 00:48:50,504 --> 00:48:51,494 spiritually amazing. 1071 00:48:51,494 --> 00:48:53,774 And so I was like, somebody thinks this is like a holy book. 1072 00:48:53,774 --> 00:48:55,674 So I'll just buy the pucca pad. 1073 00:48:55,674 --> 00:48:56,634 Okay, great. 1074 00:48:56,634 --> 00:48:57,564 Are you a pen person? 1075 00:48:57,564 --> 00:48:59,614 Have you, have you swiped the pen details? 1076 00:48:59,654 --> 00:49:03,630 Oh, I mean, I've like, I've gotten into that a little bit. 1077 00:49:03,630 --> 00:49:06,050 But I always go back to just who cares. 1078 00:49:06,050 --> 00:49:11,450 But yeah, there's that that one pen that like You probably know it I don't maybe 1079 00:49:11,450 --> 00:49:17,410 it's zebra or it's some kind of pen people who cares about pens If you're not 1080 00:49:17,410 --> 00:49:18,360 passionate about it, stop. 1081 00:49:18,360 --> 00:49:19,750 I'm not passionate about it. 1082 00:49:19,750 --> 00:49:24,570 Okay, don't care then In general, how are you getting yourself into the zone? 1083 00:49:24,570 --> 00:49:28,030 When you want to like when you like, you know, you've got a block of time You got a 1084 00:49:28,030 --> 00:49:29,610 big meaty thing to work on. 1085 00:49:29,610 --> 00:49:32,948 What is your like on ramp into productivity look like? 1086 00:49:33,984 --> 00:49:38,894 Tea, like some sort of caffeine, but tea for me. 1087 00:49:39,634 --> 00:49:41,714 Morning or night. 1088 00:49:42,894 --> 00:49:43,914 Really? 1089 00:49:43,914 --> 00:49:45,054 You're fine? 1090 00:49:45,534 --> 00:49:47,434 Yeah, morning, night or weekend. 1091 00:49:48,134 --> 00:49:51,604 Just when everybody else is not working, for some reason I'm like more... 1092 00:49:51,604 --> 00:49:54,234 Oh, like early morning, late night, weekend. 1093 00:49:54,234 --> 00:49:54,714 Gotcha. 1094 00:49:54,714 --> 00:49:55,884 Not like midday. 1095 00:49:55,884 --> 00:49:56,994 No, no, no, no. 1096 00:49:56,994 --> 00:49:57,774 Gotcha, gotcha. 1097 00:49:57,774 --> 00:49:58,814 I mean, that's that. 1098 00:49:58,814 --> 00:50:01,694 But I guess the only... 1099 00:50:01,694 --> 00:50:03,526 If I'm excited about it... 1100 00:50:03,566 --> 00:50:05,146 then it's really easy to focus. 1101 00:50:05,146 --> 00:50:07,126 If I'm not, I need accountability. 1102 00:50:07,126 --> 00:50:13,406 So I'll like live stream and that like I'll have like three hours of focused deep 1103 00:50:13,406 --> 00:50:14,786 work against my will. 1104 00:50:14,786 --> 00:50:16,276 That's really good for the thing. 1105 00:50:16,276 --> 00:50:19,986 You know, like pair programming does that. 1106 00:50:19,986 --> 00:50:20,476 Totally. 1107 00:50:20,476 --> 00:50:21,146 That was my thought. 1108 00:50:21,146 --> 00:50:21,256 Yeah. 1109 00:50:21,256 --> 00:50:24,216 It's like live streaming is kind of like parent, like pairing with a bunch of 1110 00:50:24,216 --> 00:50:25,126 people at once. 1111 00:50:25,126 --> 00:50:26,776 It captures the value of pairing for me. 1112 00:50:26,776 --> 00:50:30,806 Like the value is less in the ideas I cook up with the other person, which is 1113 00:50:30,806 --> 00:50:31,806 valuable. 1114 00:50:31,806 --> 00:50:33,294 It's the accountability. 1115 00:50:33,294 --> 00:50:38,034 And I'm a one -man band, so I can't just hang out with coworkers. 1116 00:50:38,034 --> 00:50:40,014 So streaming kind of accomplishes that. 1117 00:50:40,014 --> 00:50:40,654 Nice. 1118 00:50:40,654 --> 00:50:41,954 That makes a lot of sense. 1119 00:50:41,954 --> 00:50:42,914 Yeah. 1120 00:50:43,274 --> 00:50:46,874 So I've streamed programming a couple times. 1121 00:50:46,874 --> 00:50:51,454 And I was pleasantly surprised at how it made it feel less lonely. 1122 00:50:51,454 --> 00:50:52,834 Oh, yeah. 1123 00:50:52,974 --> 00:50:54,374 Yeah, it's great. 1124 00:50:54,374 --> 00:50:58,214 My only complaint with it is it does force, it takes such intense focus that 1125 00:50:58,214 --> 00:50:59,974 it's sometimes similar to pairing. 1126 00:50:59,974 --> 00:51:00,934 I'm like, ha. 1127 00:51:01,294 --> 00:51:05,914 I'd rather just like sit back in my chair and lazily work on something, you know? 1128 00:51:06,374 --> 00:51:11,174 But yeah, it is a communal experience. 1129 00:51:11,894 --> 00:51:13,914 Yeah, it's good. 1130 00:51:14,074 --> 00:51:15,344 How do you feel about testing? 1131 00:51:15,344 --> 00:51:17,274 What's your stance on tests? 1132 00:51:17,694 --> 00:51:19,994 Yeah, I'm not sure. 1133 00:51:19,994 --> 00:51:23,824 Sometimes I write code bases with no tests and I just have a bug tracker and it's 1134 00:51:23,824 --> 00:51:27,024 like the LiveWire docs are sort of an app. 1135 00:51:27,024 --> 00:51:30,334 They have like payments and logins and stuff. 1136 00:51:30,478 --> 00:51:34,228 I don't have any tests and I'm fine with that because if it's simple enough and I 1137 00:51:34,228 --> 00:51:36,128 ship a bug, I chose up in the bug tracker. 1138 00:51:36,128 --> 00:51:37,358 I fix it in a minute. 1139 00:51:37,358 --> 00:51:44,698 Um, but for like live wire itself, I honestly think the test suite, I know that 1140 00:51:44,698 --> 00:51:47,378 the test suite is more valuable to me than the code itself. 1141 00:51:47,378 --> 00:51:50,458 Um, and I believe that wholeheartedly. 1142 00:51:50,458 --> 00:51:53,278 So sometimes I'm like a testing TDD. 1143 00:51:53,278 --> 00:51:58,048 Yeah, I'm not sure, you know, but man, like a solid test suite for me, that's 1144 00:51:58,048 --> 00:52:00,018 acceptance tests cause they're full stack framework. 1145 00:52:00,018 --> 00:52:00,590 So. 1146 00:52:00,590 --> 00:52:04,780 I've like Selenium type tests and one Cypress and the other, but yeah, like 1147 00:52:04,780 --> 00:52:10,530 literally browser tests for a lot of it that are slow and suck, but every failing 1148 00:52:10,530 --> 00:52:13,970 or every bug that gets submitted, like it's always starts with a failing test. 1149 00:52:13,970 --> 00:52:17,430 Like that's probably the most valuable like workflow improvement I've made along 1150 00:52:17,430 --> 00:52:18,690 the line. 1151 00:52:18,830 --> 00:52:19,270 Yeah. 1152 00:52:19,270 --> 00:52:21,950 Why do you value the tests more than the code itself? 1153 00:52:21,950 --> 00:52:28,558 Yeah, because like the code, maybe this is why, like for re. 1154 00:52:28,558 --> 00:52:32,848 Like I rewrote LiveWire and the only way I was able to do that is because I had the 1155 00:52:32,848 --> 00:52:33,378 test suite. 1156 00:52:33,378 --> 00:52:38,908 And when I, it gives me the freedom to do what I want with the code because I resent 1157 00:52:38,908 --> 00:52:41,258 the code a lot of times, you know? 1158 00:52:41,258 --> 00:52:46,478 And it's like the only thing that gives me salvation from this resentment is these 1159 00:52:46,478 --> 00:52:51,318 tests that allow me to change the code, you know? 1160 00:52:51,318 --> 00:52:53,318 And I don't care if the tests suck. 1161 00:52:53,318 --> 00:52:58,702 Like it doesn't really matter what matters is do they give me assurance that 1162 00:52:58,702 --> 00:53:02,402 that if I ship this thing, it's not going to break everybody's apps, you know? 1163 00:53:02,402 --> 00:53:02,702 Yeah. 1164 00:53:02,702 --> 00:53:05,102 And they do that. 1165 00:53:05,102 --> 00:53:05,312 Yeah. 1166 00:53:05,312 --> 00:53:05,762 Yeah. 1167 00:53:05,762 --> 00:53:09,032 So if you deleted all the code, you could reconstitute it. 1168 00:53:09,032 --> 00:53:10,352 I could reconstitute the code. 1169 00:53:10,352 --> 00:53:12,422 You can make the tests pass again. 1170 00:53:12,602 --> 00:53:15,682 If you delete all the tests, tougher to get those back. 1171 00:53:15,682 --> 00:53:16,942 Way harder. 1172 00:53:17,022 --> 00:53:22,292 Those get built up over years of people finding edge cases that aren't me, that 1173 00:53:22,292 --> 00:53:26,202 aren't in the happy path, that, you know, that's what it is. 1174 00:53:26,202 --> 00:53:26,462 Yeah. 1175 00:53:26,462 --> 00:53:28,302 That's the real value. 1176 00:53:28,302 --> 00:53:29,382 Yeah. 1177 00:53:29,602 --> 00:53:30,002 Yep. 1178 00:53:30,002 --> 00:53:30,692 That makes sense. 1179 00:53:30,692 --> 00:53:30,842 Yeah. 1180 00:53:30,842 --> 00:53:32,922 If you had to lose one, I would, I'd go the same way. 1181 00:53:32,922 --> 00:53:33,382 Yeah. 1182 00:53:33,382 --> 00:53:34,492 That's so funny. 1183 00:53:34,492 --> 00:53:38,202 I haven't thought about that, but like if you have to pick one, I would pick the 1184 00:53:38,202 --> 00:53:38,562 tests. 1185 00:53:38,562 --> 00:53:38,992 Yeah. 1186 00:53:38,992 --> 00:53:39,622 Yeah. 1187 00:53:39,622 --> 00:53:44,212 And like, I feel like most, I think a lot of programmers would be fairly delighted 1188 00:53:44,212 --> 00:53:49,052 to learn that they, all the code has been deleted and now all they need to do is 1189 00:53:49,052 --> 00:53:50,012 make all these tests pass. 1190 00:53:50,012 --> 00:53:50,962 Right. 1191 00:53:50,962 --> 00:53:51,362 Yes. 1192 00:53:51,362 --> 00:53:53,494 Like these high level acceptance tests in particular. 1193 00:53:53,494 --> 00:53:55,654 unit tests, kind of annoying. 1194 00:53:55,654 --> 00:53:57,514 Your cramping style can be annoying. 1195 00:53:57,514 --> 00:53:57,754 Yes. 1196 00:53:57,754 --> 00:54:00,204 But if you give me a high level test, I just need to make these go green. 1197 00:54:00,204 --> 00:54:00,914 Oh, man. 1198 00:54:00,914 --> 00:54:01,614 Absolutely. 1199 00:54:01,614 --> 00:54:02,414 One by one, baby. 1200 00:54:02,414 --> 00:54:02,914 Let's go. 1201 00:54:02,914 --> 00:54:04,294 Yeah, that's the dream. 1202 00:54:04,774 --> 00:54:05,554 Yeah. 1203 00:54:05,574 --> 00:54:07,434 Yeah, a lot. 1204 00:54:07,674 --> 00:54:08,614 Yeah. 1205 00:54:09,194 --> 00:54:10,194 It's interesting. 1206 00:54:10,194 --> 00:54:14,714 So I've talked about this, that phenomenon before about how it's like, oh, yeah, 1207 00:54:14,714 --> 00:54:18,314 given the test, you can make the code, but given the code, you can't make the tests. 1208 00:54:18,314 --> 00:54:20,270 And then I caught myself. 1209 00:54:20,270 --> 00:54:24,210 now in 2024, like wondering like how true is that still? 1210 00:54:24,210 --> 00:54:28,720 Because I think I could feed some code to various AI tools and be like, give me some 1211 00:54:28,720 --> 00:54:29,730 tests. 1212 00:54:29,970 --> 00:54:32,010 And are they going to catch the edge cases? 1213 00:54:32,010 --> 00:54:33,530 Maybe. 1214 00:54:33,690 --> 00:54:38,170 Probably not like the gnarlier ones, like the oh man, on Windows with this setting, 1215 00:54:38,170 --> 00:54:39,010 this thing fails. 1216 00:54:39,010 --> 00:54:40,640 So yeah, you're not going to get all that detail back. 1217 00:54:40,640 --> 00:54:45,480 But I think there's more of the ability now to like, I could create the tests from 1218 00:54:45,480 --> 00:54:47,570 the code in a way I couldn't before. 1219 00:54:48,942 --> 00:54:54,372 You're probably right to a degree, but I would imagine like Livewire, like tuple is 1220 00:54:54,372 --> 00:54:59,762 something that is so like integrated in the experience of use. 1221 00:54:59,762 --> 00:55:03,712 It's not just like a package that you're calling methods on that has like very 1222 00:55:03,712 --> 00:55:04,542 clear ins and outs. 1223 00:55:04,542 --> 00:55:05,622 It's like, Oh yeah. 1224 00:55:05,622 --> 00:55:11,972 These are, there's a 10 zillion scenarios that no LLM is going to suss out at least 1225 00:55:11,972 --> 00:55:13,542 right now, you know? 1226 00:55:13,542 --> 00:55:16,300 Um, but yeah, I don't know, but. 1227 00:55:16,300 --> 00:55:20,030 It's an interesting point that it probably is getting less and less true, but I think 1228 00:55:20,030 --> 00:55:21,710 it's still pretty freaking true. 1229 00:55:21,710 --> 00:55:22,050 Yeah. 1230 00:55:22,050 --> 00:55:24,100 I mean, I would still rather delete the code than the tests. 1231 00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:24,550 Yeah. 1232 00:55:24,550 --> 00:55:25,490 Yes. 1233 00:55:26,630 --> 00:55:29,530 I have a question for you, Ben. 1234 00:55:29,530 --> 00:55:30,130 Hit me. 1235 00:55:30,130 --> 00:55:34,040 And this question goes better if you were like a day -to -day programmer. 1236 00:55:34,040 --> 00:55:39,270 So I am actually curious to hear like to what level you still code, if any. 1237 00:55:39,590 --> 00:55:44,300 But in my career, I made a change from being like a systems. 1238 00:55:44,494 --> 00:55:49,594 like information systems developer in Laravel apps, like very typical stuff, 1239 00:55:49,594 --> 00:55:54,064 like maybe you at Thoughtbot, like just Rails apps kind of thing, to being like a 1240 00:55:54,064 --> 00:55:58,544 systems programmer, like with bespoke systems, like with these frameworks, you 1241 00:55:58,544 --> 00:56:03,324 know, like how do you write a tree walker and, you know, all of these things that 1242 00:56:03,324 --> 00:56:07,234 are not just databases and controllers and whatever. 1243 00:56:07,254 --> 00:56:12,154 And I found it to like breathe new life into my career and expose all these new 1244 00:56:12,154 --> 00:56:13,646 loves for programming and... 1245 00:56:13,646 --> 00:56:19,466 I just wonder if you found a similar transition into working on a non -typical 1246 00:56:19,466 --> 00:56:19,986 app. 1247 00:56:19,986 --> 00:56:25,086 Like the only typical part of Tupil is like the app, your user account, you know, 1248 00:56:25,086 --> 00:56:26,866 everything else is like a bespoke system. 1249 00:56:26,866 --> 00:56:31,246 So is that just, is that amazing for you? 1250 00:56:31,826 --> 00:56:32,436 Yeah. 1251 00:56:32,436 --> 00:56:32,986 So you're right. 1252 00:56:32,986 --> 00:56:36,146 The Tupil is not like a, not like the apps that we'd worked on before. 1253 00:56:36,146 --> 00:56:39,286 So I have two co -founders, all three of us were Rails developers. 1254 00:56:39,286 --> 00:56:41,442 And then we realized we had to build. 1255 00:56:41,442 --> 00:56:44,922 We tried a few prototypes and realized, OK, the thing that gives us the control 1256 00:56:44,922 --> 00:56:52,292 and performance we want is a C++ desktop app that's doing all these real -time 1257 00:56:52,292 --> 00:56:56,582 things, real -time audio, video, data channels, that sort of thing. 1258 00:56:57,982 --> 00:57:03,302 And fortunately or not for me, it was kind of clear that we shouldn't have three 1259 00:57:03,302 --> 00:57:08,002 people coding on this thing and no one doing sales and marketing. 1260 00:57:08,002 --> 00:57:10,572 So because I had the audience, I was like, all right, I'm going to do sales and 1261 00:57:10,572 --> 00:57:11,118 marketing. 1262 00:57:11,118 --> 00:57:16,238 And so I wrote the first version of the Rails backend that the app talks to. 1263 00:57:16,878 --> 00:57:19,798 But then I didn't sling any of the C++. 1264 00:57:19,798 --> 00:57:22,518 So I didn't get to make that transition. 1265 00:57:22,578 --> 00:57:23,738 Do you regret that? 1266 00:57:23,738 --> 00:57:27,098 Is there a part of you that, or is it just like, no, that's what had to be done and 1267 00:57:27,098 --> 00:57:28,038 I'm glad? 1268 00:57:28,038 --> 00:57:34,468 Or is there a part of you that's like, man, I was an equal programmer, but now 1269 00:57:34,468 --> 00:57:38,608 I'm the business guy that I used to work with that doesn't understand that it has 1270 00:57:38,608 --> 00:57:40,978 to trust these devs and such? 1271 00:57:41,868 --> 00:57:43,448 I wouldn't say I regret it. 1272 00:57:43,448 --> 00:57:46,878 No, I think it was very much the right call for the business. 1273 00:57:46,878 --> 00:57:47,658 Yeah. 1274 00:57:47,658 --> 00:57:51,138 Personally, I miss programming a bit. 1275 00:57:51,258 --> 00:57:54,338 Like I feel rusty with some of these concepts we're talking about or like I 1276 00:57:54,338 --> 00:57:57,438 haven't touched the new things and I'm like, you know, JavaScript is a big 1277 00:57:57,438 --> 00:58:00,958 mystery to me and like sort of newer paradigms I haven't played around with. 1278 00:58:00,958 --> 00:58:06,328 So there's part of me that feels a little bit of like personal sadness around that 1279 00:58:06,328 --> 00:58:06,798 fact. 1280 00:58:06,798 --> 00:58:07,718 Yeah. 1281 00:58:09,230 --> 00:58:12,260 But I think if you have three co -founders, having all three do programming 1282 00:58:12,260 --> 00:58:14,050 is probably not the right answer. 1283 00:58:14,050 --> 00:58:14,890 Yeah. 1284 00:58:14,890 --> 00:58:17,120 And like I like the other stuff too. 1285 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:21,110 Like I really enjoyed like figuring out how to do sales, figuring out how to do 1286 00:58:21,110 --> 00:58:25,240 marketing, doing product, talking to customers, making choices about how it 1287 00:58:25,240 --> 00:58:25,990 should work. 1288 00:58:25,990 --> 00:58:29,010 And it felt like I was in like my kind of zone of genius there. 1289 00:58:29,010 --> 00:58:29,950 Cool. 1290 00:58:30,450 --> 00:58:36,830 And I, before Tupel, I had kind of gotten to the point where I was like, I've been 1291 00:58:36,830 --> 00:58:37,902 programming for like, 1292 00:58:37,902 --> 00:58:39,662 12 years or something at that point. 1293 00:58:39,662 --> 00:58:41,582 And I had gotten pretty good. 1294 00:58:41,582 --> 00:58:45,062 And it felt like I was at like, know, diminishing returns in terms of like 1295 00:58:45,062 --> 00:58:46,132 continuing to get better. 1296 00:58:46,132 --> 00:58:49,922 It was like I could get better, but it was like I was already a eight out of 10 1297 00:58:49,922 --> 00:58:50,802 programmer or something. 1298 00:58:50,802 --> 00:58:55,522 And I was like a three out of 10 at like other aspects of running a software 1299 00:58:55,522 --> 00:58:55,982 company. 1300 00:58:55,982 --> 00:59:00,602 And I was like, I'd rather lift those skills up and like figure out how to get 1301 00:59:00,602 --> 00:59:03,482 good at that rather than get like a bit better at programming, which is going to 1302 00:59:03,482 --> 00:59:05,962 take actually quite a bit of effort now, given where I'm at. 1303 00:59:05,962 --> 00:59:07,118 Right. 1304 00:59:07,598 --> 00:59:10,138 Yeah, that's a great answer. 1305 00:59:10,138 --> 00:59:13,158 And I can identify with that somewhat myself. 1306 00:59:13,158 --> 00:59:17,178 And I think that's, yeah, yeah, that's really cool and makes a lot of sense. 1307 00:59:17,178 --> 00:59:23,238 Do you find that the business problems and sales problems and such are like just as 1308 00:59:23,238 --> 00:59:27,368 intellectually satisfying, like solving these puzzles and cracking them open and 1309 00:59:27,368 --> 00:59:28,178 whatnot? 1310 00:59:28,538 --> 00:59:29,618 Generally, no. 1311 00:59:29,618 --> 00:59:30,218 Generally, no. 1312 00:59:30,218 --> 00:59:30,658 Okay. 1313 00:59:30,658 --> 00:59:35,878 You can't beat programming for brain stimulation and like flow state. 1314 00:59:36,558 --> 00:59:39,708 like when you know you got a big chunk of time and like an interesting programming 1315 00:59:39,708 --> 00:59:42,278 problem and you've kind of like figured out some of it in your head and like 1316 00:59:42,278 --> 00:59:43,978 you're like ready to go after it. 1317 00:59:43,978 --> 00:59:49,418 Nothing for me like makes the hours fly by like getting like really into the code. 1318 00:59:49,418 --> 00:59:52,988 And I don't I get some of that from writing if I'm doing like longer form 1319 00:59:52,988 --> 00:59:53,378 writing. 1320 00:59:53,378 --> 00:59:56,638 I think that will get me in the inflow state eventually. 1321 00:59:56,638 --> 00:59:59,578 But most of the other stuff not quite. 1322 00:59:59,578 --> 00:59:59,878 Yeah. 1323 00:59:59,878 --> 01:00:01,318 So I think so. 1324 01:00:01,318 --> 01:00:04,318 So programmers got it good in that way I would say. 1325 01:00:04,318 --> 01:00:04,898 True. 1326 01:00:04,898 --> 01:00:05,646 Yeah. 1327 01:00:05,646 --> 01:00:07,666 I definitely, I could see that. 1328 01:00:07,666 --> 01:00:15,706 And any of the business salesy stuff in my life, it's engaging and rewarding, but 1329 01:00:15,706 --> 01:00:21,086 it's like when you're working on a system or something with a really slow feedback 1330 01:00:21,086 --> 01:00:24,746 loop where every deploy takes two hours and you have to get it through Q &A three 1331 01:00:24,746 --> 01:00:25,206 times. 1332 01:00:25,206 --> 01:00:29,126 There's so much cruft that it disrupts that flow. 1333 01:00:29,126 --> 01:00:30,726 And to me, it's like... 1334 01:00:30,894 --> 01:00:32,594 that process is so like that. 1335 01:00:32,594 --> 01:00:33,634 It's so nebulous. 1336 01:00:33,634 --> 01:00:35,134 The feedback loops are slow. 1337 01:00:35,134 --> 01:00:41,814 It's not conducive to that constant stimulation flow state problem solving 1338 01:00:41,814 --> 01:00:45,474 loop that is programming or can be programming so often. 1339 01:00:45,474 --> 01:00:48,774 Totally, especially with tests, because I was pretty into TDD. 1340 01:00:48,774 --> 01:00:50,654 I wrote most of my code with test -driven development. 1341 01:00:50,654 --> 01:00:53,634 So it's like, you're getting that constant, here's what's wrong. 1342 01:00:53,634 --> 01:00:54,634 OK, it works now. 1343 01:00:54,634 --> 01:00:55,414 Here's what's wrong. 1344 01:00:55,414 --> 01:00:56,174 OK, it works now. 1345 01:00:56,174 --> 01:00:59,054 And it's just like all these little. 1346 01:00:59,886 --> 01:01:04,566 dopamine hits like a hundred times an hour as opposed to occasionally. 1347 01:01:04,866 --> 01:01:05,506 Yeah. 1348 01:01:05,506 --> 01:01:05,996 Yeah. 1349 01:01:05,996 --> 01:01:11,266 Funny that you describe like passing tests as dopamine hits and there is like, there 1350 01:01:11,266 --> 01:01:14,886 is some dopamine drip when you physically see that green. 1351 01:01:14,886 --> 01:01:16,376 Like, that's funny. 1352 01:01:16,376 --> 01:01:21,976 There's like something really beautiful about the color green when you're 1353 01:01:21,976 --> 01:01:22,786 programming, you know? 1354 01:01:22,786 --> 01:01:24,906 And like the slot machine has like lit up for you. 1355 01:01:24,906 --> 01:01:26,236 It's like you tried and didn't work. 1356 01:01:26,236 --> 01:01:26,976 You tried, didn't work. 1357 01:01:26,976 --> 01:01:27,256 Oh wait. 1358 01:01:27,256 --> 01:01:27,886 Oh, I see. 1359 01:01:27,886 --> 01:01:28,494 Hold on. 1360 01:01:28,494 --> 01:01:29,474 Okay, there it is. 1361 01:01:29,474 --> 01:01:30,334 Great. 1362 01:01:30,334 --> 01:01:30,874 Got it. 1363 01:01:30,874 --> 01:01:31,094 Right. 1364 01:01:31,094 --> 01:01:32,824 I want to, I've always found it interesting. 1365 01:01:32,824 --> 01:01:36,554 Like the thought process before you hit that test run, especially if you're doing 1366 01:01:36,554 --> 01:01:41,574 it like very quickly, like I think you have like a sense for like, I think 1367 01:01:41,574 --> 01:01:46,614 developers get pretty good at predicting if like what percentage chance this test 1368 01:01:46,614 --> 01:01:50,604 is going to pass or fail, you know, like you just have this sense. 1369 01:01:50,604 --> 01:01:51,934 You can almost not even describe. 1370 01:01:51,934 --> 01:01:56,704 That's like, how much I think this time it's going to, or like, like I'm going to 1371 01:01:56,704 --> 01:01:57,710 make this fix, but 1372 01:01:57,710 --> 01:02:00,490 I don't believe it's gonna fix it, but you still have to try it. 1373 01:02:00,490 --> 01:02:01,490 I don't know. 1374 01:02:01,490 --> 01:02:05,190 Even when I'm pairing with people, I find myself doing that where I'm like, before 1375 01:02:05,190 --> 01:02:08,310 we run this test, is it gonna pass? 1376 01:02:08,350 --> 01:02:09,570 I don't know. 1377 01:02:09,570 --> 01:02:15,030 Yeah, I feel like I actually, my guess would be that I have a pretty high 1378 01:02:15,030 --> 01:02:22,270 accuracy on predicting tests pass or fail, because I'm usually not very far from it 1379 01:02:22,270 --> 01:02:24,030 passing, I think. 1380 01:02:24,030 --> 01:02:25,582 Gotcha, because you're close. 1381 01:02:25,582 --> 01:02:28,502 you're following the development closely with the tests. 1382 01:02:28,502 --> 01:02:29,512 I would say so, yeah. 1383 01:02:29,512 --> 01:02:33,322 I don't write 10 tests and then go write some code and see what happens and be 1384 01:02:33,322 --> 01:02:34,532 like, I wonder if three of these will pass. 1385 01:02:34,532 --> 01:02:39,442 It's more like, OK, we need to now handle the situation where there are no orders in 1386 01:02:39,442 --> 01:02:42,102 the list and we should show this message. 1387 01:02:42,102 --> 01:02:44,492 And I know we don't handle this yet, so I read the test. 1388 01:02:44,492 --> 01:02:45,442 I know it's going to fail. 1389 01:02:45,442 --> 01:02:45,872 It does. 1390 01:02:45,872 --> 01:02:46,952 It fails the right way. 1391 01:02:46,952 --> 01:02:48,182 It gives me the error I expect. 1392 01:02:48,182 --> 01:02:49,462 I'm like, OK, cool. 1393 01:02:49,462 --> 01:02:50,982 I need to handle this. 1394 01:02:50,982 --> 01:02:52,322 And I'm like, I think we've handled it. 1395 01:02:52,322 --> 01:02:53,382 And then sometimes I'm wrong. 1396 01:02:53,382 --> 01:02:55,078 I'm like, oh, actually. 1397 01:02:55,246 --> 01:02:58,426 something was a little bit off, but I would say most of the time I can sort of, 1398 01:02:58,426 --> 01:03:00,166 I know if I'm about to go red or green. 1399 01:03:00,166 --> 01:03:01,266 Yeah. 1400 01:03:01,266 --> 01:03:02,826 Yeah. 1401 01:03:02,946 --> 01:03:07,636 Um, let me ask you this unrelated question on, on your own interview podcast, Ben, 1402 01:03:07,636 --> 01:03:11,676 are there, are there any radical things that you Institute at two bowl on the 1403 01:03:11,676 --> 01:03:12,286 development side? 1404 01:03:12,286 --> 01:03:16,556 Are there any places where you guys say like, like it, that you guys are different 1405 01:03:16,556 --> 01:03:20,946 in some sense or, or really radical in your adherence to some practice? 1406 01:03:20,946 --> 01:03:22,926 I would say, 1407 01:03:23,534 --> 01:03:24,964 Nothing is immediately coming to mind. 1408 01:03:24,964 --> 01:03:28,404 I would say sort of two things that I wouldn't say radical, but are a bit 1409 01:03:28,404 --> 01:03:29,334 different than what I'm used to. 1410 01:03:29,334 --> 01:03:32,374 One is that we actually have manual QA testing. 1411 01:03:32,754 --> 01:03:37,454 So we have a test suite for the app, but there's enough pieces and weirdness and 1412 01:03:37,454 --> 01:03:41,494 sort of like impossible to create state programmatically or challenging to create 1413 01:03:41,494 --> 01:03:45,554 that we have found value from having someone manually run through a checklist 1414 01:03:45,554 --> 01:03:47,094 of the app. 1415 01:03:47,794 --> 01:03:52,244 And the other is that I've never actually seen so many little prototypes get 1416 01:03:52,244 --> 01:03:53,112 created. 1417 01:03:53,742 --> 01:03:55,242 Um, interesting. 1418 01:03:55,242 --> 01:03:58,982 I think this might be because the app itself is fairly large and fairly complex. 1419 01:03:58,982 --> 01:04:06,322 And so often to try a new interaction out or a new little bit of functionality, it 1420 01:04:06,322 --> 01:04:13,312 seems more approachable or it's we get a faster, uh, time to feedback by doing a 1421 01:04:13,312 --> 01:04:18,382 little play version of it that is in its own repo with like no constraints. 1422 01:04:18,642 --> 01:04:19,412 Yeah. 1423 01:04:19,412 --> 01:04:22,574 I mean, that, that is, seems like another one of those just. 1424 01:04:22,574 --> 01:04:27,254 really good buttons to hit in development, like really good practices to have is like 1425 01:04:27,254 --> 01:04:31,154 code that you intend to throw away where you're just, you know, exploring. 1426 01:04:31,154 --> 01:04:35,314 Um, yeah, proof of concept prototypes is definitely one of the, it's like, seems so 1427 01:04:35,314 --> 01:04:37,994 obvious, but it's something that I don't often reach for. 1428 01:04:37,994 --> 01:04:40,324 And then when I do, I go, why don't I do this for everything? 1429 01:04:40,324 --> 01:04:45,514 Like, why don't you can get so far in a single day with no constraints and, you 1430 01:04:45,514 --> 01:04:50,434 know, just playing around and really like, you know, expose a lot of the complexity 1431 01:04:50,434 --> 01:04:52,238 that this thing will have or the, 1432 01:04:52,238 --> 01:04:53,178 I don't know. 1433 01:04:53,178 --> 01:04:57,488 So did you guys have to like, do you systematize that in some way that like, do 1434 01:04:57,488 --> 01:05:00,498 you just all remember that, oh, this should be a prototype or, you know? 1435 01:05:00,498 --> 01:05:03,668 Yeah, I think it's, I know, I think it feels like it's part of the culture now 1436 01:05:03,668 --> 01:05:05,818 where it happens fairly automatically. 1437 01:05:05,818 --> 01:05:08,878 I don't think there's any dick, like no dick dates that say like, you must do 1438 01:05:08,878 --> 01:05:09,358 this. 1439 01:05:09,358 --> 01:05:10,198 Right. 1440 01:05:10,198 --> 01:05:11,078 Yeah. 1441 01:05:11,078 --> 01:05:11,518 Yep. 1442 01:05:11,518 --> 01:05:15,778 Is that, is that the way a lot of it is, is just like things get embedded in the 1443 01:05:15,778 --> 01:05:19,638 culture because they're good ideas and then that's how good ideas continue. 1444 01:05:19,638 --> 01:05:22,254 Or do you have to like set? 1445 01:05:22,254 --> 01:05:26,014 good ideas, bake good ideas in somehow, or is that like a challenge? 1446 01:05:26,274 --> 01:05:28,974 I've never thought about it systematically like that. 1447 01:05:28,974 --> 01:05:32,454 So I don't think we have like a thing that's like, here's how we write code 1448 01:05:32,454 --> 01:05:35,234 here, like here are the good ideas you must not forget. 1449 01:05:35,234 --> 01:05:39,274 I think it's a little bit more like, probably because we pair so much, I think 1450 01:05:39,274 --> 01:05:44,024 these things like get spread around or someone will remember, or it's kind of 1451 01:05:44,024 --> 01:05:47,734 like, is the part of the oral history of how we work. 1452 01:05:47,734 --> 01:05:48,594 Yep. 1453 01:05:48,854 --> 01:05:50,154 Yep, that's cool. 1454 01:05:50,294 --> 01:05:51,342 So you review it. 1455 01:05:51,342 --> 01:05:56,662 I have to imagine a ton of pull requests as an open source maintainer. 1456 01:05:56,662 --> 01:06:00,582 I think what I'm finding is the more active I am, the more pull requests I get. 1457 01:06:00,582 --> 01:06:02,952 And then the less active I am, the fewer I get. 1458 01:06:02,952 --> 01:06:06,962 Cause I think people, I think people don't want to submit pull requests if they don't 1459 01:06:06,962 --> 01:06:09,582 think that it's going to get paid attention to. 1460 01:06:10,142 --> 01:06:14,272 So lately I've been like pretty on fire with, with like getting the inbox zero 1461 01:06:14,272 --> 01:06:16,184 every day and like, 1462 01:06:16,184 --> 01:06:20,314 It's doing horrible things to my productivity because like yesterday 11 PRS 1463 01:06:20,314 --> 01:06:21,654 got opened in one day. 1464 01:06:21,654 --> 01:06:26,154 Like I woke up and it was like, I have 11 new pull requests to review this morning. 1465 01:06:26,154 --> 01:06:31,764 So anyway, yeah, sometimes I do a lot of code review, but sometimes I go, I can't 1466 01:06:31,764 --> 01:06:32,454 do this right now. 1467 01:06:32,454 --> 01:06:33,894 I have to work on other stuff. 1468 01:06:33,894 --> 01:06:34,394 But yeah. 1469 01:06:34,394 --> 01:06:35,234 Well, okay. 1470 01:06:35,234 --> 01:06:38,084 So I actually want to come back to my original question because that's, that's 1471 01:06:38,084 --> 01:06:38,424 interesting. 1472 01:06:38,424 --> 01:06:42,024 So I noticed you tweeted the other day, like you have these like list of, you have 1473 01:06:42,024 --> 01:06:46,062 like a bunch of shortcuts in your Chrome new tab in order. 1474 01:06:46,062 --> 01:06:47,302 of how you start your day. 1475 01:06:47,302 --> 01:06:49,042 And like, I want to clear all the decks here. 1476 01:06:49,042 --> 01:06:53,502 And the first one was email, which I feel like is probably actually a terrible way 1477 01:06:53,502 --> 01:06:54,302 to start your day. 1478 01:06:54,302 --> 01:06:57,512 Actually, that was my take on your tweet is that like, this is actually not 1479 01:06:57,512 --> 01:06:59,062 probably not a good way to start your day. 1480 01:06:59,062 --> 01:07:00,202 No, email is nothing. 1481 01:07:00,202 --> 01:07:02,382 It's there because it's the easiest. 1482 01:07:02,962 --> 01:07:07,402 I used to use it's easy and it almost takes me no time ever. 1483 01:07:07,402 --> 01:07:11,102 But I need to look at it in case Aunt Millie like wants to like have a family 1484 01:07:11,102 --> 01:07:12,742 party or something, you know. 1485 01:07:12,742 --> 01:07:13,262 Gotcha. 1486 01:07:13,262 --> 01:07:13,822 Yeah. 1487 01:07:13,822 --> 01:07:14,916 Well, so. 1488 01:07:15,150 --> 01:07:17,490 I saw some of myself in this tweet. 1489 01:07:17,490 --> 01:07:17,810 Okay. 1490 01:07:17,810 --> 01:07:20,220 I often think, all right, I need to get going. 1491 01:07:20,220 --> 01:07:23,130 But first I'm going to clear all my inboxes and then I'm going to clear my to 1492 01:07:23,130 --> 01:07:23,920 do inbox. 1493 01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:25,810 And then I'm going to like hit all the things that are due today. 1494 01:07:25,810 --> 01:07:28,710 And then I'm going to get to like the media project that is important for me for 1495 01:07:28,710 --> 01:07:30,050 this this month. 1496 01:07:30,070 --> 01:07:34,030 And I often stop the day after step three. 1497 01:07:34,030 --> 01:07:38,860 It's like, all right, I like like I spend all my energy on the tending of the 1498 01:07:38,860 --> 01:07:39,600 inboxes. 1499 01:07:39,600 --> 01:07:42,170 And I almost got to the big thing that I want to work on. 1500 01:07:42,170 --> 01:07:43,290 But I didn't. 1501 01:07:43,290 --> 01:07:43,440 Yeah. 1502 01:07:43,440 --> 01:07:44,350 And. 1503 01:07:45,102 --> 01:07:45,992 Do you experience that? 1504 01:07:45,992 --> 01:07:51,102 Like, do you, how do you stay productive when you've got all this like incoming 1505 01:07:51,102 --> 01:07:54,762 issues and PRs and all that, and you feel like to be a good maintainer, you've got 1506 01:07:54,762 --> 01:07:58,342 to do those, but they're not really what you want to do long -term? 1507 01:07:58,342 --> 01:08:03,622 I just want to clarify that like, this is somebody preaching about something he 1508 01:08:03,622 --> 01:08:08,022 doesn't have a lot of experience with because the majority of my career is just 1509 01:08:08,022 --> 01:08:12,942 working on the meaty stuff and letting all the stuff decay like a messy room until 1510 01:08:12,942 --> 01:08:14,190 it's so messy that you just. 1511 01:08:14,190 --> 01:08:16,980 crush all the PRs and then do it all over again. 1512 01:08:16,980 --> 01:08:19,930 But I'm trying to do better and differently. 1513 01:08:19,930 --> 01:08:24,310 So one thing that I've been trying to stick to is 11 a .m. 1514 01:08:24,310 --> 01:08:30,050 being so I was listening to Matt and Taylor on their the Laravel podcast and 1515 01:08:30,050 --> 01:08:31,570 and Matt was like, how are you so productive? 1516 01:08:31,570 --> 01:08:33,290 And there's like, I don't even feel like I'm productive. 1517 01:08:33,290 --> 01:08:35,350 And we're all like, dude, shut up. 1518 01:08:35,350 --> 01:08:37,070 You're such a liar. 1519 01:08:37,070 --> 01:08:38,690 But whatever. 1520 01:08:38,870 --> 01:08:40,820 And he's like, I. 1521 01:08:40,845 --> 01:08:45,515 he still, you know, he said this on your podcast that he goes through every, he 1522 01:08:45,515 --> 01:08:47,785 still merges every pull request in the organization. 1523 01:08:47,785 --> 01:08:52,005 And I've been trying to get out of that for so long, but that it was like a, you 1524 01:08:52,005 --> 01:08:56,425 know what, if Taylor can do it with 10 times as much code as more than way more 1525 01:08:56,425 --> 01:09:00,825 than 10 times as much code as me, like I can do it with my small repo. 1526 01:09:00,825 --> 01:09:06,025 And so he said that he does it basically, he, he works on all that stuff until 11 am 1527 01:09:06,025 --> 01:09:08,405 and then he starts his day for other stuff. 1528 01:09:08,405 --> 01:09:10,029 So I thought if Taylor can, 1529 01:09:10,029 --> 01:09:11,499 can dedicate up to 11 a .m. 1530 01:09:11,499 --> 01:09:13,489 I can dedicate up to 11 a .m. 1531 01:09:13,489 --> 01:09:17,189 And so that is one prevention from this bleeding out into the red. 1532 01:09:17,189 --> 01:09:21,389 The two things I think the first prevention is having that hard stop where 1533 01:09:21,389 --> 01:09:22,429 it's like, no, it's 11. 1534 01:09:22,429 --> 01:09:23,109 I'm done. 1535 01:09:23,109 --> 01:09:23,829 I'm not. 1536 01:09:23,829 --> 01:09:25,299 You can't sidetrack me. 1537 01:09:25,299 --> 01:09:27,489 You know, I'm going on to this other thing. 1538 01:09:27,489 --> 01:09:31,109 And because all those things aren't in like pins, tabs and whatever, I closed the 1539 01:09:31,109 --> 01:09:31,909 browser window. 1540 01:09:31,909 --> 01:09:35,739 So it's like there's not the pull request things hanging out there. 1541 01:09:35,739 --> 01:09:37,489 So I'm only giving you till 11 a .m. 1542 01:09:37,489 --> 01:09:39,118 I think that's one important thing. 1543 01:09:39,118 --> 01:09:42,078 like breaking up the sessions of your day. 1544 01:09:42,078 --> 01:09:44,978 And then the other thing is being excited about the meaty stuff. 1545 01:09:44,978 --> 01:09:48,628 So I'm like really amped about the meaty stuff to the point that I'm like rushing 1546 01:09:48,628 --> 01:09:51,928 to try to get through the other stuff so I can get to the meaty stuff. 1547 01:09:51,928 --> 01:09:57,058 And as you know, when you're like amped about something, you're gonna do it, but 1548 01:09:57,058 --> 01:09:59,298 you're never gonna be amped about the maintenance. 1549 01:09:59,298 --> 01:10:02,858 So that's why I think it just is only gonna work for me to do that stuff first, 1550 01:10:02,858 --> 01:10:04,498 because I'm never gonna be amped about it. 1551 01:10:04,498 --> 01:10:06,176 So I have to. 1552 01:10:06,414 --> 01:10:10,734 I have to make sure that the reward is after that, you know? 1553 01:10:11,274 --> 01:10:11,564 Yep. 1554 01:10:11,564 --> 01:10:12,614 That makes sense. 1555 01:10:12,614 --> 01:10:13,654 Yeah. 1556 01:10:13,834 --> 01:10:16,174 So you're eating the vegetables first. 1557 01:10:16,174 --> 01:10:16,954 I'm trying. 1558 01:10:16,954 --> 01:10:18,574 I'm trying to eat the vegetables first. 1559 01:10:18,574 --> 01:10:18,834 Yeah. 1560 01:10:18,834 --> 01:10:22,234 You're going to have the steak later automatically because you want it. 1561 01:10:22,234 --> 01:10:23,074 Yes. 1562 01:10:23,074 --> 01:10:27,374 I'm not a vegetable eater, but I was in Disney recently and this is another thing 1563 01:10:27,374 --> 01:10:28,574 contributing to this. 1564 01:10:28,574 --> 01:10:31,474 Like Disney keeps up on all their old stuff so well. 1565 01:10:31,474 --> 01:10:33,014 I'm just like so inspired by that. 1566 01:10:33,014 --> 01:10:34,284 And I'm so not good at that. 1567 01:10:34,284 --> 01:10:35,334 I suck at that. 1568 01:10:35,334 --> 01:10:36,302 So I'm like, 1569 01:10:36,302 --> 01:10:39,942 This is my Hail Mary or this is my starting fresh or my everyday is day one. 1570 01:10:39,942 --> 01:10:41,842 It's like, I'm going to reinvent myself. 1571 01:10:41,842 --> 01:10:46,972 I'm determined to reinvent myself as somebody who cares for small details that 1572 01:10:46,972 --> 01:10:48,542 aren't exciting to me at all. 1573 01:10:48,542 --> 01:10:50,962 You know, interesting. 1574 01:10:51,022 --> 01:10:51,562 Huh? 1575 01:10:51,562 --> 01:10:52,902 I've gone the other way with that. 1576 01:10:52,902 --> 01:10:53,802 Really? 1577 01:10:53,802 --> 01:10:54,382 Yeah. 1578 01:10:54,382 --> 01:10:56,142 Don't tell me about it. 1579 01:10:56,142 --> 01:10:57,042 Sorry. 1580 01:10:57,042 --> 01:10:57,862 Tell me. 1581 01:10:57,862 --> 01:11:02,382 Well, I think I've decided that I can't make myself want something. 1582 01:11:02,382 --> 01:11:02,942 Okay. 1583 01:11:02,942 --> 01:11:03,726 And. 1584 01:11:03,726 --> 01:11:07,306 Also that I'm at my best when I'm embracing the things that I'm good at and 1585 01:11:07,306 --> 01:11:08,186 have passion for. 1586 01:11:08,186 --> 01:11:08,966 Yeah. 1587 01:11:08,966 --> 01:11:12,526 And should just kind of accept this other stuff. 1588 01:11:12,526 --> 01:11:19,806 And maybe this is honestly this is kind of a luxury because you can you can build a 1589 01:11:19,806 --> 01:11:22,746 business to augment your weaknesses. 1590 01:11:22,746 --> 01:11:23,346 True. 1591 01:11:23,346 --> 01:11:27,126 So I can hire people to do those things that don't give me joy and I'm not good 1592 01:11:27,126 --> 01:11:28,026 at. 1593 01:11:28,026 --> 01:11:28,186 Yeah. 1594 01:11:28,186 --> 01:11:31,466 And often they're really good at it and enjoy it. 1595 01:11:32,206 --> 01:11:33,422 So there's like 1596 01:11:33,422 --> 01:11:37,062 as a one man band, you might not, you may just have to like suck it up and do that 1597 01:11:37,062 --> 01:11:37,902 for a while. 1598 01:11:37,902 --> 01:11:41,942 But like, I feel more motivated when I'm just like, look, I love this and this and 1599 01:11:41,942 --> 01:11:42,172 this. 1600 01:11:42,172 --> 01:11:45,582 And I want to like spend as much time doing those things. 1601 01:11:45,762 --> 01:11:48,602 Yeah, I generally agree with you. 1602 01:11:48,602 --> 01:11:53,772 And most of my life is spent with this belief that like, man, like swimming 1603 01:11:53,772 --> 01:11:58,452 upstream, like just to, you know, find your unfair advantage and double down on 1604 01:11:58,452 --> 01:11:58,632 it. 1605 01:11:58,632 --> 01:12:02,438 Like that's and for me, it's it's. 1606 01:12:02,446 --> 01:12:07,706 programming and innovating and new ideas and talking and communicating and easy 1607 01:12:07,706 --> 01:12:08,606 communication like this. 1608 01:12:08,606 --> 01:12:12,826 Like these are all my strong suits, but you know, long form written stuff and 1609 01:12:12,826 --> 01:12:17,116 keeping up maintenance support tickets, like pull requests, all that crappy 1610 01:12:17,116 --> 01:12:20,046 context, which he stuff that I hate, I suck at. 1611 01:12:20,126 --> 01:12:23,336 And I've, yeah, I guess right now I'm okay. 1612 01:12:23,336 --> 01:12:27,116 My counterpoint to what you're saying, because I have to like, I have to double 1613 01:12:27,116 --> 01:12:29,806 down on what I'm saying so that it sticks. 1614 01:12:29,846 --> 01:12:31,278 Cause I like, I'm trying. 1615 01:12:31,278 --> 01:12:36,658 I guess building a company and being able to delegate some of these things is a big 1616 01:12:36,658 --> 01:12:38,138 solution to it. 1617 01:12:38,138 --> 01:12:43,208 But I'm even like, I'm wondering, this is what I'm wondering is if working on my 1618 01:12:43,208 --> 01:12:48,558 week suits enhances the strong ones and fills in these gaps. 1619 01:12:48,638 --> 01:12:56,228 And like, like now, because I have that discipline injected into my day, the last 1620 01:12:56,228 --> 01:13:00,108 chunk of it is even more productive than if it was the whole chunk and I wasn't, 1621 01:13:00,108 --> 01:13:00,812 you know, 1622 01:13:00,812 --> 01:13:03,282 deferring that gratification or something. 1623 01:13:03,282 --> 01:13:03,742 I don't know. 1624 01:13:03,742 --> 01:13:08,922 It could be a weak argument, but yeah, maybe I'm just a solopreneur and right now 1625 01:13:08,922 --> 01:13:12,242 I'm in a position where to have the company I want, I have to be good at the 1626 01:13:12,242 --> 01:13:14,002 things I'm not good at. 1627 01:13:14,502 --> 01:13:16,302 Or at least be like willing to do them. 1628 01:13:16,302 --> 01:13:19,702 Like hit a tolerable level of performance there. 1629 01:13:19,722 --> 01:13:23,422 And I think it's like such a rare attribute for people to be able to do what 1630 01:13:23,422 --> 01:13:27,438 I'm trying to do like this week and I have no proof that I'll be able to. 1631 01:13:27,438 --> 01:13:30,838 that like I see it in the, the, the really successful people around me. 1632 01:13:30,838 --> 01:13:35,058 Like I'm always, you know, picking on like Taylor and Adam and Jeffrey and these 1633 01:13:35,058 --> 01:13:39,068 people in our community who've managed to do this, they appear to be very strong in 1634 01:13:39,068 --> 01:13:39,908 all of these suits. 1635 01:13:39,908 --> 01:13:44,878 And it's like, I'm, I'm either, maybe they naturally are or aren't, but I can at 1636 01:13:44,878 --> 01:13:47,938 least try really hard for this set of things. 1637 01:13:47,938 --> 01:13:52,838 And maybe, you know, maybe that's a key here, you know, I don't know. 1638 01:13:52,838 --> 01:13:57,170 Maybe that's why they make it to that extra level is because. 1639 01:13:57,294 --> 01:14:00,484 They're not only doing all that innovating, they're also answering support 1640 01:14:00,484 --> 01:14:04,724 tickets and making sure they're at inbox zero for pull requests and caring for 1641 01:14:04,724 --> 01:14:05,934 those small details, you know? 1642 01:14:05,934 --> 01:14:07,094 I don't know. 1643 01:14:07,314 --> 01:14:08,794 Who knows? 1644 01:14:08,794 --> 01:14:10,174 But normally I'm with you. 1645 01:14:10,174 --> 01:14:11,114 Don't fight your nature. 1646 01:14:11,114 --> 01:14:12,404 Just like double down on it. 1647 01:14:12,404 --> 01:14:13,894 Use it to your advantage. 1648 01:14:13,894 --> 01:14:15,814 Pull those big levers, you know? 1649 01:14:15,814 --> 01:14:16,934 It's pretty nice. 1650 01:14:16,934 --> 01:14:18,334 But I don't know. 1651 01:14:18,334 --> 01:14:19,134 Yeah. 1652 01:14:19,994 --> 01:14:20,454 Okay. 1653 01:14:20,454 --> 01:14:22,574 Let's do a little lightning round. 1654 01:14:22,574 --> 01:14:23,214 Yeah. 1655 01:14:23,214 --> 01:14:26,318 So I want to hit you with a bunch of questions and give me like, 1656 01:14:26,318 --> 01:14:28,298 a minute max on each of them. 1657 01:14:28,298 --> 01:14:28,698 Okay. 1658 01:14:28,698 --> 01:14:30,298 And don't ask me any questions. 1659 01:14:30,298 --> 01:14:31,018 Okay. 1660 01:14:31,418 --> 01:14:32,278 All right. 1661 01:14:32,278 --> 01:14:37,118 What is your dream pull request on one of your open source libraries look like? 1662 01:14:38,198 --> 01:14:42,098 A documentation update that I can instantly merge. 1663 01:14:42,658 --> 01:14:44,758 That's my dream. 1664 01:14:45,118 --> 01:14:53,114 But definitely failing tests, small, you know, well, 1665 01:14:53,390 --> 01:14:55,640 Yeah, I don't even care so much about the description. 1666 01:14:55,640 --> 01:14:58,850 The code should say a lot of it, but I'll just pull it down. 1667 01:14:58,850 --> 01:15:01,630 And if the test makes sense and I don't know, the smaller, the better. 1668 01:15:01,630 --> 01:15:03,230 That's the best thing I can say. 1669 01:15:03,230 --> 01:15:03,690 Yeah. 1670 01:15:03,690 --> 01:15:05,900 Tiny, tiny PRs, tiny PRs. 1671 01:15:05,900 --> 01:15:06,410 Yep. 1672 01:15:06,410 --> 01:15:09,050 Focused, tiny, small, high value. 1673 01:15:09,050 --> 01:15:10,210 That's, that's my dream. 1674 01:15:10,210 --> 01:15:10,520 Yep. 1675 01:15:10,520 --> 01:15:12,650 Do you care about good commit messages? 1676 01:15:12,810 --> 01:15:14,070 Not at all. 1677 01:15:14,070 --> 01:15:15,210 Ooh, why not? 1678 01:15:15,210 --> 01:15:16,240 I from other people. 1679 01:15:16,240 --> 01:15:16,810 I don't care. 1680 01:15:16,810 --> 01:15:19,170 Uh, for me, I, I used to do whip. 1681 01:15:19,170 --> 01:15:20,580 I don't do whip commit messages. 1682 01:15:20,580 --> 01:15:22,470 I write like a few words. 1683 01:15:22,470 --> 01:15:23,648 Like I'll say, 1684 01:15:23,662 --> 01:15:29,402 tweak this or fix test or try to just like keep it as simple as possible but provide 1685 01:15:29,402 --> 01:15:31,162 some sort of flag. 1686 01:15:32,022 --> 01:15:37,312 But they all get squashed in the PR and the PR description is usually, or at least 1687 01:15:37,312 --> 01:15:40,922 the title is like well written and the release notes. 1688 01:15:40,922 --> 01:15:45,872 So I'm pretty rarely like actually looking at individual commit messages for any 1689 01:15:45,872 --> 01:15:47,702 information, you know? 1690 01:15:47,862 --> 01:15:48,682 Gotcha. 1691 01:15:48,682 --> 01:15:50,942 Do you have any favorite coding books? 1692 01:15:53,454 --> 01:16:00,024 Yeah, I mean, refactoring Martin Fowler's book is like kind of was a Bible for me at 1693 01:16:00,024 --> 01:16:00,594 one point. 1694 01:16:00,594 --> 01:16:08,414 And I guess another there's like making your users badass or whatever. 1695 01:16:08,694 --> 01:16:11,454 That book was pretty impactful for me. 1696 01:16:11,454 --> 01:16:15,414 Yeah, from a maintenance perspective, I read that book in that I still think about 1697 01:16:15,414 --> 01:16:20,054 that a lot of like making my users awesome by making them really good at the tool 1698 01:16:20,054 --> 01:16:22,654 that I'm giving to them, not just giving them the tool. 1699 01:16:22,794 --> 01:16:26,244 Making them feel like they're wizards so that they go and they go like this thing 1700 01:16:26,244 --> 01:16:27,644 is the best I'm awesome at it. 1701 01:16:27,644 --> 01:16:28,554 Like you should learn it. 1702 01:16:28,554 --> 01:16:32,724 So Yeah, that's really good and Sandy Metz 99 bottles was really impactful for me at 1703 01:16:32,724 --> 01:16:36,484 one point a clean code was impacted You know, there were things all along the 1704 01:16:36,484 --> 01:16:39,864 journey that were really impactful, but I don't know I don't reference a lot of 1705 01:16:39,864 --> 01:16:40,404 books anymore. 1706 01:16:40,404 --> 01:16:44,524 I've given away most of them except for refactoring and like That's it. 1707 01:16:44,524 --> 01:16:45,094 Yeah. 1708 01:16:45,094 --> 01:16:48,114 What are you doing now to keep improving? 1709 01:16:48,534 --> 01:16:51,614 a lot of it is like a 1710 01:16:52,654 --> 01:16:59,484 What's that, uh, can't Albert Hubbard and like Thoreau and the transcendentalists 1711 01:16:59,484 --> 01:17:04,634 that were like very extreme, like, like in, in that the truth is within you and 1712 01:17:04,634 --> 01:17:09,214 like, find your own way and, and whatever they're like, things like that have been 1713 01:17:09,214 --> 01:17:13,004 kind of my journey as of late is like writing my own story and finding my own 1714 01:17:13,004 --> 01:17:15,654 best ways to do things within myself. 1715 01:17:15,654 --> 01:17:21,034 It's a weird way of thinking about it, but it's, I've been sort of drawing in to 1716 01:17:21,034 --> 01:17:21,742 create. 1717 01:17:21,742 --> 01:17:23,802 in original ways on my own. 1718 01:17:24,582 --> 01:17:31,072 So I'm not referencing a ton of stuff these days, but improving my craft, I 1719 01:17:31,072 --> 01:17:31,302 guess. 1720 01:17:31,302 --> 01:17:31,772 I don't know. 1721 01:17:31,772 --> 01:17:36,922 I probably should do more of it, but a lot of it's just internal progress, I guess. 1722 01:17:36,922 --> 01:17:37,822 Yeah. 1723 01:17:38,442 --> 01:17:44,082 Do you have any scripts or shell aliases that you use a lot that you find valuable? 1724 01:17:45,342 --> 01:17:46,562 Yeah. 1725 01:17:46,802 --> 01:17:49,222 Nah, I got from Jeffrey. 1726 01:17:49,222 --> 01:17:50,286 It's like, 1727 01:17:50,286 --> 01:17:52,946 get hard reset, you know, I use that all the time. 1728 01:17:52,946 --> 01:17:53,686 Okay. 1729 01:17:53,686 --> 01:17:56,306 To just scratch everything that's not committed. 1730 01:17:56,306 --> 01:17:57,216 That's a big one. 1731 01:17:57,216 --> 01:17:58,366 I use a lot. 1732 01:17:58,366 --> 01:18:02,996 Um, nah, I have one called PR that just like checks out a pull request locally so 1733 01:18:02,996 --> 01:18:05,386 that I can run the tests and work on it. 1734 01:18:05,386 --> 01:18:07,686 Um, yeah, that's really valuable. 1735 01:18:07,686 --> 01:18:09,756 And I'm trying to think there's probably a bunch. 1736 01:18:09,756 --> 01:18:15,706 I mean, I have, Oh, like SIM linking a local repo in our package manager. 1737 01:18:15,706 --> 01:18:19,982 So whatever, I mean, this is pretty esoteric stuff, but like doing 1738 01:18:19,982 --> 01:18:24,622 like if I maintain a project, so I want to be able to use it inside of other apps, 1739 01:18:24,622 --> 01:18:28,522 like locally, but not get the one from like NPM kind of. 1740 01:18:28,522 --> 01:18:32,542 So having commands to just easily like sim link those dependencies to my local 1741 01:18:32,542 --> 01:18:35,882 versions that I can develop on them and then test them in apps locally. 1742 01:18:35,882 --> 01:18:40,312 Like that's an annoying thing that I put into a bash alias, but yeah, I probably 1743 01:18:40,312 --> 01:18:42,502 have like 15 bash, bash aliases. 1744 01:18:42,502 --> 01:18:45,342 I keep it pretty simple, but that's, that's the short answer. 1745 01:18:45,342 --> 01:18:45,902 Yeah. 1746 01:18:45,902 --> 01:18:48,662 Are those, are your files public? 1747 01:18:48,842 --> 01:18:49,870 Uh, 1748 01:18:49,870 --> 01:18:51,550 Old ones are, yeah. 1749 01:18:51,550 --> 01:18:53,210 Like I did this at one point. 1750 01:18:53,210 --> 01:18:57,130 I don't know how much I've changed since then, but I think I put up like a bash 1751 01:18:57,130 --> 01:18:58,290 profile at one point. 1752 01:18:58,290 --> 01:19:04,050 And now it's like a ZSHRC file, but yeah, there's not a ton going on in there. 1753 01:19:04,050 --> 01:19:07,330 There's just a few helpful things, yeah. 1754 01:19:07,490 --> 01:19:08,170 Gotcha. 1755 01:19:08,170 --> 01:19:13,030 Anything else in the core beliefs or values about coding? 1756 01:19:14,290 --> 01:19:16,558 Something that I've kind of come to is, 1757 01:19:16,558 --> 01:19:20,758 I say this is like the only two things I care about in programming is, is like 1758 01:19:20,758 --> 01:19:26,368 keeping methods small, keeping functions and methods short, small is probably the 1759 01:19:26,368 --> 01:19:30,098 most valuable thing I think for any programmer to improve code quality. 1760 01:19:30,098 --> 01:19:33,588 And then the other one is I call it the single file principle. 1761 01:19:33,588 --> 01:19:37,038 It's basically like, if you can keep everything, I don't really care about 1762 01:19:37,038 --> 01:19:42,438 like, uh, like co -location of like concerns and all, you know, all these like 1763 01:19:42,438 --> 01:19:45,582 kind of big things, separation of concerns, separation, you know, 1764 01:19:45,582 --> 01:19:47,162 optimizing for this and that. 1765 01:19:47,162 --> 01:19:50,842 For me, it's pretty much all about like, can I put everything related to this one 1766 01:19:50,842 --> 01:19:52,142 thing in one file? 1767 01:19:52,142 --> 01:19:54,922 And if I can't, can I put it in one folder? 1768 01:19:54,922 --> 01:19:58,862 And so like LiveWare is code -based, every feature has a folder and there's patterns 1769 01:19:58,862 --> 01:19:59,642 in those folders. 1770 01:19:59,642 --> 01:20:01,752 So it's like the tests are right in those folders too. 1771 01:20:01,752 --> 01:20:07,012 So it's very, it's like as co -located as you can make your code make it, which is 1772 01:20:07,012 --> 01:20:11,592 often hard because things that are co -located are separate and sometimes they 1773 01:20:11,592 --> 01:20:13,222 need to interact with each other. 1774 01:20:13,222 --> 01:20:13,806 And that. 1775 01:20:13,806 --> 01:20:16,756 So I use like an event system in LiveWire and that introduced a little bit of 1776 01:20:16,756 --> 01:20:17,526 indirection. 1777 01:20:17,526 --> 01:20:21,366 But anyway, two big programming philosophies are the single file principle 1778 01:20:21,366 --> 01:20:23,856 or just like single folder, whatever, keep it in one file. 1779 01:20:23,856 --> 01:20:27,206 So when you need to go change that thing, you just go, oh, I go to that file and the 1780 01:20:27,206 --> 01:20:30,356 change lives in here somewhere, you know, or if I want to rewrite it, just rewrite 1781 01:20:30,356 --> 01:20:32,926 that one file and then keeping methods short. 1782 01:20:32,926 --> 01:20:34,426 It's like the two big things. 1783 01:20:34,426 --> 01:20:34,686 Yeah. 1784 01:20:34,686 --> 01:20:35,206 Yeah. 1785 01:20:35,206 --> 01:20:39,216 So if you, if you're using the single file or single folder thing, let's say you 1786 01:20:39,216 --> 01:20:40,956 like, you like, you decide you want to delete a feature. 1787 01:20:40,956 --> 01:20:42,416 You're like, actually, this was a bad idea. 1788 01:20:42,416 --> 01:20:42,766 Yeah. 1789 01:20:42,766 --> 01:20:44,044 Delete that folder. 1790 01:20:44,334 --> 01:20:46,224 almost nothing else changes, gone. 1791 01:20:46,224 --> 01:20:47,114 That's everything. 1792 01:20:47,114 --> 01:20:51,994 So LiveWire and Alpine, every single directive and pretty much every feature, 1793 01:20:51,994 --> 01:20:55,654 you can comment out the one line that includes it, like that references that 1794 01:20:55,654 --> 01:20:56,394 flake in JavaScript. 1795 01:20:56,394 --> 01:20:58,154 It's like import this file. 1796 01:20:58,154 --> 01:21:02,544 You can pretty much just comment out any of the APIs and everything else still 1797 01:21:02,544 --> 01:21:02,844 works. 1798 01:21:02,844 --> 01:21:08,324 So I separate the code bases into the core machinery that can't be changed and then 1799 01:21:08,324 --> 01:21:09,074 all the features. 1800 01:21:09,074 --> 01:21:12,174 And I try to really make, yeah, so that. 1801 01:21:12,174 --> 01:21:13,374 make it as removable as possible. 1802 01:21:13,374 --> 01:21:14,984 But that is a goal and I can do that. 1803 01:21:14,984 --> 01:21:16,584 I've achieved that with both of the rewrites. 1804 01:21:16,584 --> 01:21:18,034 Those were the big motivations. 1805 01:21:18,034 --> 01:21:18,794 Yeah. 1806 01:21:18,914 --> 01:21:21,054 Why are short methods good? 1807 01:21:21,334 --> 01:21:22,464 Short methods are good. 1808 01:21:22,464 --> 01:21:28,394 I mean, they're good for readability, but I think they ultimately they're really 1809 01:21:28,394 --> 01:21:34,154 great for readability, but I think they just result in better architectures 1810 01:21:34,154 --> 01:21:40,954 because you identify points of reusability and, and like extraction so much better 1811 01:21:40,954 --> 01:21:42,126 than when everything is 1812 01:21:42,126 --> 01:21:44,746 is like in a pile. 1813 01:21:45,226 --> 01:21:46,446 Yeah, I don't know. 1814 01:21:46,446 --> 01:21:51,946 It's just one of those things that to me feels like you can turn your bad code into 1815 01:21:51,946 --> 01:21:54,846 good code simply by making a bunch of small methods. 1816 01:21:54,846 --> 01:21:56,826 Like it almost is universally true for me. 1817 01:21:56,826 --> 01:21:57,626 I don't know. 1818 01:21:57,626 --> 01:22:01,506 How do you start trying to understand a piece of code you haven't seen before? 1819 01:22:01,846 --> 01:22:05,446 First, I pull it down and like I have to touch it. 1820 01:22:05,446 --> 01:22:07,426 I can't just like read it on GitHub. 1821 01:22:07,426 --> 01:22:10,382 I could do that a little bit, but it's. 1822 01:22:10,382 --> 01:22:13,332 annoying for me to pull stuff down, but I know it's the secret to success. 1823 01:22:13,332 --> 01:22:16,872 Like I have to pull the thing down because then I'm in the context and then I can 1824 01:22:16,872 --> 01:22:17,622 touch it. 1825 01:22:17,622 --> 01:22:21,832 So if I can open the file and look at it and especially interact with it, that's 1826 01:22:21,832 --> 01:22:22,642 really good. 1827 01:22:22,642 --> 01:22:25,192 Running the tests is good. 1828 01:22:25,192 --> 01:22:27,722 I use step debugger in the front end. 1829 01:22:27,722 --> 01:22:33,512 I use like Chrome step debugger a lot, but, but yeah, I, I guess it's just like, 1830 01:22:33,512 --> 01:22:38,350 it's really bouncing around to different modes of, of, um, 1831 01:22:38,350 --> 01:22:41,630 of interaction until one of them gives me the understanding I'm looking for. 1832 01:22:41,630 --> 01:22:43,420 It's like, I start with just scanning out. 1833 01:22:43,420 --> 01:22:43,870 I didn't do it. 1834 01:22:43,870 --> 01:22:45,480 Pull it down, run the test, start with that. 1835 01:22:45,480 --> 01:22:46,420 You know, I didn't do it. 1836 01:22:46,420 --> 01:22:51,110 You know, it's like sort of dig into the different depths until one of them sticks. 1837 01:22:51,110 --> 01:22:51,270 Yeah. 1838 01:22:51,270 --> 01:22:52,830 Got it. 1839 01:22:52,830 --> 01:22:57,670 You recently rewrote a large project and it seems like it went well. 1840 01:22:57,670 --> 01:22:59,630 It seems like you achieved your goals and you're happy with that. 1841 01:22:59,630 --> 01:23:02,930 What is your, what is your take on rewrites now and your advice for other 1842 01:23:02,930 --> 01:23:04,490 people considering them? 1843 01:23:04,490 --> 01:23:07,822 If you're your own boss and you can afford it. 1844 01:23:07,822 --> 01:23:12,102 and it'll make you happy and happiness is important to your business. 1845 01:23:12,102 --> 01:23:13,732 That's all the things that were true for me. 1846 01:23:13,732 --> 01:23:15,562 I need to love the code base I'm working in. 1847 01:23:15,562 --> 01:23:17,962 So I just decided, well, screw it. 1848 01:23:17,962 --> 01:23:19,152 I'm just going to do it. 1849 01:23:19,152 --> 01:23:23,752 Um, but for most applications and businesses and whatnot, it doesn't make a 1850 01:23:23,752 --> 01:23:24,572 ton of sense. 1851 01:23:24,572 --> 01:23:26,462 Um, pretty often. 1852 01:23:26,462 --> 01:23:29,892 And so I'd like, would probably caution people, tell people to like do everything, 1853 01:23:29,892 --> 01:23:30,962 but, or rewrite. 1854 01:23:30,962 --> 01:23:33,198 And then like, that's like the very last thing. 1855 01:23:33,198 --> 01:23:33,618 you should do. 1856 01:23:33,618 --> 01:23:37,418 And if you do do it, like do a base camp style new version of your product that you 1857 01:23:37,418 --> 01:23:39,768 can market so that business is amped about the rewrite too. 1858 01:23:39,768 --> 01:23:42,998 And it's not just like a giant waste of resources to them. 1859 01:23:42,998 --> 01:23:44,098 Yeah. 1860 01:23:44,098 --> 01:23:45,218 That's good. 1861 01:23:45,218 --> 01:23:46,358 Awesome. 1862 01:23:46,618 --> 01:23:49,278 Anything we didn't talk about that you want to cover? 1863 01:23:49,278 --> 01:23:50,348 You feel passionate about things. 1864 01:23:50,348 --> 01:23:53,718 So, I mean, I'm pretty passionate about everything so we could be here all day. 1865 01:23:53,718 --> 01:23:57,938 I think we covered, we covered some ground and, and had some good chats. 1866 01:23:57,938 --> 01:23:59,178 Yeah, we did. 1867 01:23:59,178 --> 01:24:00,358 I'm really glad you came on. 1868 01:24:00,358 --> 01:24:01,670 This is, this is great. 1869 01:24:01,902 --> 01:24:02,122 Nice. 1870 01:24:02,122 --> 01:24:03,622 Yeah, thanks for having me, Ben. 1871 01:24:03,622 --> 01:24:04,202 I agree. 1872 01:24:04,202 --> 01:24:04,682 It a pleasure. 1873 01:24:04,682 --> 01:24:06,122 Is there anywhere you want to send people? 1874 01:24:06,122 --> 01:24:08,822 How do we support you as a developer and human? 1875 01:24:09,182 --> 01:24:11,322 Twitter is where I hang out, so follow me on Twitter. 1876 01:24:11,322 --> 01:24:13,142 Most important thing. 1877 01:24:14,382 --> 01:24:19,302 I sell screencasts for stuff I make, and if you use the stuff I make, buying the 1878 01:24:19,302 --> 01:24:22,682 screencasts is the best thing you could do for me, and I appreciate that. 1879 01:24:22,682 --> 01:24:23,202 Cool. 1880 01:24:23,202 --> 01:24:23,682 Awesome. 1881 01:24:23,682 --> 01:24:24,862 Well, thanks for coming on. 1882 01:24:24,862 --> 01:24:25,872 Thanks for having me, Ben. 1883 01:24:25,872 --> 01:24:26,822 See you. 1884 01:24:26,822 --> 01:24:27,922 See you.