WEBVTT 00:00:00.000 --> 00:00:11.920 Music. 00:00:12.534 --> 00:00:15.994 What's going on, everybody? And welcome back to the Life on 11 podcast. 00:00:16.274 --> 00:00:17.794 This is episode number eight. 00:00:18.214 --> 00:00:22.314 Today, Jeremy and I talk about predestination and specifically the problems 00:00:22.314 --> 00:00:25.534 with predestination. So without further ado, let's take it to 11. 00:00:32.034 --> 00:00:35.694 What's going on, Jeremy? How are you tonight? I'm doing pretty good. 00:00:35.854 --> 00:00:38.494 You look like you're doing good. You're relaxing over there. 00:00:38.714 --> 00:00:41.834 I'm very relaxed. I got my Mountain Dew right here. you're chilling 00:00:41.834 --> 00:00:47.574 out max and relaxing oh cool shooting some b-ball outside of the school yeah 00:00:47.574 --> 00:00:51.834 we could sing that whole we almost have to sing the whole song you can't stop 00:00:51.834 --> 00:00:54.834 i don't know that people want us to sing the whole song are you sure i'm pretty 00:00:54.834 --> 00:00:59.954 sure all right i'm taking a i'm taking okay all right fresh prince of bel-air 00:00:59.954 --> 00:01:01.394 one of my favorites you had a good week, 00:01:02.014 --> 00:01:07.174 yeah it's been good yeah we're shoot i mean we're almost done with the week we're going to, 00:01:07.854 --> 00:01:10.614 Taylin State Gymnastics this weekend. That's always a good time. 00:01:11.434 --> 00:01:16.274 So that'll be fun. Sweet. All events? You doing all events? Oh, yeah. Yeah, all events. 00:01:16.714 --> 00:01:20.574 And then we usually, we make a whole weekend out of it. So we watch all of her 00:01:20.574 --> 00:01:22.454 friends compete and root for all of them. 00:01:22.874 --> 00:01:28.274 So it's a good time. Families get together. We go have dinner and do fun stuff. 00:01:28.394 --> 00:01:30.974 It's a good time. Sweet. Good way to end the season. 00:01:31.194 --> 00:01:33.214 Good call. Good call. I like it. What about you? 00:01:33.514 --> 00:01:37.814 It's been a good week. Getting ready to celebrate birthdays next week. 00:01:37.954 --> 00:01:39.274 Twins are having their birthday. 00:01:39.954 --> 00:01:44.814 And I think we've still got a couple weeks of soccer left. So rolling with it. 00:01:45.054 --> 00:01:47.314 No basketball this weekend. There is NBA. 00:01:48.723 --> 00:01:54.523 My Lakers. Yeah, they blew that, bro. Yeah, I know. They blew it. I know. 00:01:55.463 --> 00:01:59.443 Which is, I mean, it's regretful because they're not going to win the championship. 00:01:59.623 --> 00:02:01.583 But I don't really like LeBron. So 00:02:01.583 --> 00:02:05.303 I'm okay that he's not winning another championship. I'm okay with that. 00:02:06.443 --> 00:02:11.923 But it's all good. It's all good. And like you, you know, it's been a beautiful 00:02:11.923 --> 00:02:15.003 week here in the old Chandelier Valley. Oh, man, the weather has been very nice. 00:02:15.183 --> 00:02:17.643 It's been fantastic. It's been absolutely fantastic. 00:02:18.323 --> 00:02:20.363 Well, we're going to dive in because we got a lot of content. 00:02:20.583 --> 00:02:22.403 We got a lot of stuff to cover tonight. A lot of food? 00:02:23.163 --> 00:02:29.103 Content. Food is content? Dude, I'm stuffed. I couldn't eat anymore. I don't believe that. 00:02:29.543 --> 00:02:33.183 Okay, I probably could. I shouldn't. What if somebody brought some maple spam 00:02:33.183 --> 00:02:35.683 in here right now? Dude, maple spam. 00:02:35.963 --> 00:02:39.703 Put it on lock right now. I'm telling you. 00:02:40.703 --> 00:02:44.203 I'm issuing a public apology. You already did this once. 00:02:45.123 --> 00:02:48.483 Apologize again. Go ahead. Maple spam. It was amazing. 00:02:48.983 --> 00:02:53.023 It was amazing. You know, Foodline and Timberville is going to sell out of maple 00:02:53.023 --> 00:02:54.343 spam tomorrow just because of this. 00:02:54.483 --> 00:02:58.423 It was so amazing. I went to the store just to buy maple spam. 00:02:58.903 --> 00:03:04.223 That is pretty epic. I have never in my life went to a store simply to buy canned 00:03:04.223 --> 00:03:07.203 meat until last week. Yes, sir. 00:03:07.563 --> 00:03:11.143 And they didn't have it. Oh, they didn't have it? No. Oh, snap. 00:03:11.343 --> 00:03:13.163 That's because Aaron bought it all. Probably so. 00:03:13.563 --> 00:03:16.163 He's probably selling it on the black market right now. Probably. 00:03:16.423 --> 00:03:17.883 $10 a can. Yeah, it's on eBay. 00:03:19.097 --> 00:03:23.397 But we got a lot to cover tonight. We are, we're diving in tonight. 00:03:23.657 --> 00:03:25.677 We've had some good discussions. 00:03:26.117 --> 00:03:33.857 Diving. But tonight, we are talking about the doctrine of predestination. 00:03:34.317 --> 00:03:35.677 Bum, bum, bum. 00:03:37.217 --> 00:03:42.617 Predestination. So, full disclaimer, I don't think any of us, 00:03:42.797 --> 00:03:48.677 either one of us, are, we don't support the predestination. No. 00:03:49.337 --> 00:03:52.637 No idea i i don't i don't 00:03:52.637 --> 00:03:57.217 okay all right well we got that out of the way so that's good so if you do then 00:03:57.217 --> 00:03:59.797 now would be your chance to turn the podcast off and we'll see you next week 00:03:59.797 --> 00:04:04.637 or listen to us so you know how to how to have a conversation about how to argue 00:04:04.637 --> 00:04:10.157 with people like us oh yeah okay yeah that's fair but we are going to talk about 00:04:10.157 --> 00:04:12.177 predestination tonight and specifically, 00:04:12.737 --> 00:04:17.837 we're going to talk about some of the problems that we see that arise yep and 00:04:17.837 --> 00:04:19.677 believing in predestination, right? 00:04:20.037 --> 00:04:26.657 So, working definition, predestination that God has pre-willed, 00:04:27.077 --> 00:04:33.097 already willed certain things, all things, specifically for this conversation, 00:04:33.357 --> 00:04:37.837 salvation for some people and not for others, 00:04:38.057 --> 00:04:45.157 therefore saying that God has created people with an eternal destiny already 00:04:45.157 --> 00:04:49.897 determined for them before they were created is the working definition. 00:04:50.677 --> 00:04:52.557 Of predestination. Is that fair for you? 00:04:53.197 --> 00:05:00.057 Yep. Yep. The number one thing that comes to my mind when you say that is if 00:05:00.057 --> 00:05:06.517 that's the case, why did Jesus come to earth to die for everybody's sins? Yeah. 00:05:07.862 --> 00:05:13.122 And to preach the gospel and to. Exactly. Yeah. So. Now, within. 00:05:13.362 --> 00:05:15.682 Are we done already? I think we're done. Okay. That was quick. Yeah. 00:05:16.182 --> 00:05:18.202 Okay. Continue. Sorry. It was predestined to be that choice. 00:05:18.622 --> 00:05:20.942 Oh, no, you did not. I'm sorry. 00:05:21.462 --> 00:05:24.982 Yes, you did. Okay. I like it. This is going to be good. It was funny. 00:05:25.142 --> 00:05:28.522 A few years ago, a friend of mine, a friend of ours from church, 00:05:28.762 --> 00:05:34.202 they went to a particular, they went out of town and they went to a church and 00:05:34.202 --> 00:05:37.482 it was Calvinist in its tradition. and I won't tell you which mode of Calvinism 00:05:37.482 --> 00:05:39.902 it was, but they went to this Calvinist church. 00:05:40.422 --> 00:05:44.562 And so the next week I said something about, I said something about, 00:05:44.662 --> 00:05:46.682 you know, how was your time while y'all were gone? 00:05:47.182 --> 00:05:51.162 And he said, oh, it was good. And I said, did you go to church? And he was like, yeah. 00:05:51.402 --> 00:05:54.982 And he told me that he said, well, we happened to end up at this Calvinist church. 00:05:55.082 --> 00:05:57.582 And I was like, nobody happens to end up at a predestined church, dude. 00:06:00.862 --> 00:06:05.862 Sorry, that was mean. Now inside of predestination, There are different modes 00:06:05.862 --> 00:06:08.862 of predestination, okay? 00:06:09.082 --> 00:06:15.962 You have your full-fledged Calvinist reform tradition, which believes in sort 00:06:15.962 --> 00:06:18.702 of double predestination, 00:06:18.802 --> 00:06:22.702 if you will, that God has absolutely ordained one group of people for salvation 00:06:22.702 --> 00:06:27.922 and absolutely ordained another group for damnation and destruction. 00:06:27.922 --> 00:06:36.282 Okay what if how do the Calvinist people know whether or not they're one of 00:06:36.282 --> 00:06:38.262 the predestined ones you would have to ask Calvinist, 00:06:39.422 --> 00:06:42.702 seriously that's a legit question maybe we should get one on the show like if 00:06:42.702 --> 00:06:44.702 you are if you are a Calvinist 00:06:45.082 --> 00:06:49.182 you are what if you're wrong yeah if you're if you are you believe in predestination 00:06:49.182 --> 00:06:53.242 we would love to talk to you yeah I would I would seriously love to hear 100% 00:06:53.242 --> 00:06:56.102 I would love to have that conversation we would love we would love for you to come talk, 00:06:57.141 --> 00:07:03.521 So, Calvinism, strong predestination reform theology would say, 00:07:03.681 --> 00:07:07.601 we have no choice in salvation. It is only God's choosing. 00:07:09.041 --> 00:07:14.881 There's another mode of predestination, which is Arminianism. 00:07:15.561 --> 00:07:21.021 Arminianism has a lot of other stuff with it, too. But they would reject the 00:07:21.021 --> 00:07:26.681 kind of double mode and say that God did predestine, does predestine people, 00:07:26.901 --> 00:07:31.161 but he predestines them because he already knows what they're going to choose in the first place. 00:07:31.741 --> 00:07:34.701 So we can choose, but God knew we were going to choose. 00:07:34.881 --> 00:07:41.021 So he predestined us for things and for salvation, knowing that we were going to choose it anyway. 00:07:41.021 --> 00:07:49.781 So so that all right so that one there i could have more conversation about, 00:07:50.961 --> 00:07:57.341 because i will not disagree that god does know the choices that everyone's going 00:07:57.341 --> 00:08:01.461 to make in their life correct i will not debate that because he's all knowing 00:08:01.461 --> 00:08:04.741 all seeing all powerful all everything, right? 00:08:05.761 --> 00:08:11.601 However, to say that that means that everyone is predestined, 00:08:12.501 --> 00:08:14.741 I'm just, I'm not buying into that. 00:08:15.381 --> 00:08:19.521 Like, so this is kind of, this is a very simple example. 00:08:20.021 --> 00:08:26.781 Young children, as a parent, a lot of times you already know what your child 00:08:26.781 --> 00:08:28.881 is going to choose, right? Correct. 00:08:29.181 --> 00:08:33.541 You know that. Yes. But they still have to choose it, right? Yes. 00:08:33.821 --> 00:08:37.641 So, I mean, that's oversimplified. I get it. 00:08:37.961 --> 00:08:41.361 But that is where, that's how I feel. Yes. Personally. 00:08:41.821 --> 00:08:47.981 And I guess I think that God has God's best. 00:08:48.181 --> 00:08:54.661 He knows what his absolute best for us is. And I think he has a path laid out for our lives. 00:08:55.401 --> 00:09:01.021 That is what he wants for us. And so, in a way, he has predestined a life for 00:09:01.021 --> 00:09:06.281 us. Like, I believe that God created Jess and I to be married, 00:09:06.421 --> 00:09:09.501 but we still had to choose it. Yeah. 00:09:09.701 --> 00:09:14.861 And we still have to choose to be married. And like, we could abandon that plan 00:09:14.861 --> 00:09:18.521 at any moment if we wanted to. 00:09:19.081 --> 00:09:21.981 Yeah. Don't tell Jess I said that because I don't want her to want to. 00:09:22.401 --> 00:09:25.121 No, she's good. Yeah, but she's good. 00:09:25.641 --> 00:09:30.301 So in that sense, some of that predestination down with. 00:09:31.021 --> 00:09:40.161 So, yeah. So let's talk more. We're talking about tonight the problems with predestination. 00:09:40.521 --> 00:09:42.961 Yep. As we see them. Okay. 00:09:43.521 --> 00:09:50.001 So let's think through some of those. We outlined before the podcast like three 00:09:50.001 --> 00:09:51.861 or four. We'll see how many we get to. 00:09:52.201 --> 00:09:53.881 Oh, we're going to get them all. We're going to get them all? 00:09:54.161 --> 00:09:56.781 Okay, we're going to get them all. Yeah. The problem number one. 00:09:57.690 --> 00:10:04.730 Free will versus moral responsibility, or in other words, how can humans be 00:10:04.730 --> 00:10:09.770 morally accountable if choices are already predetermined? 00:10:10.430 --> 00:10:19.350 Yep. And that's where, for me, that's where I do not prescribe to predestination. 00:10:19.650 --> 00:10:25.110 I think free will is a very open term. 00:10:25.110 --> 00:10:30.090 You say free will, you could say, like, we have the free will to change gravity 00:10:30.090 --> 00:10:35.230 or change time or those things, which clearly we do not. Right. 00:10:36.270 --> 00:10:41.530 However, I think free will in this sense, we're talking about moral free will, 00:10:41.690 --> 00:10:46.910 like all of your free will that you have is morally moral decisions. 00:10:47.290 --> 00:10:54.430 Correct. Like not to steal, not to cheat, not to murder, all of those things. 00:10:55.110 --> 00:11:02.290 So for me, that's where I land on free will as far as our decision-making. 00:11:03.030 --> 00:11:08.730 Right. And not just morally. I think that there are things that when it comes 00:11:08.730 --> 00:11:14.030 to free will, I think that there are just some things that God 100% leaves up to free will. 00:11:14.290 --> 00:11:16.650 He really has no opinion on it. 00:11:18.350 --> 00:11:24.150 A classic example is a friend of mine, when Jess and I decided to get a dog, 00:11:24.330 --> 00:11:29.890 we were talking about how we were looking for a dog, and we chose Bentley, 00:11:29.970 --> 00:11:32.870 who's now our dog, who's been our dog for a long time now. 00:11:32.870 --> 00:11:36.950 And I remember he said, like, well, did you pray about getting a dog? 00:11:37.270 --> 00:11:41.270 And my answer to him was, no, I didn't. Because I don't think, 00:11:41.410 --> 00:11:45.650 I think that God, if I want a dog, and as long as I'm going to take care of 00:11:45.650 --> 00:11:51.790 the dog and treat the dog ethically, I don't think God cares if I have a dog or a cat. 00:11:51.950 --> 00:11:56.850 Yeah. And I don't think God cares if I have a Labrador or a Labradoodle or a 00:11:56.850 --> 00:11:58.450 Schnauzer or a Wiener dog. 00:11:58.830 --> 00:12:03.070 I think that God gives me. Tara would disagree with that. She would decide. 00:12:03.110 --> 00:12:04.850 You have to have. Have to have a wiener dog. Yeah. 00:12:05.370 --> 00:12:08.570 But I don't think God gets in the mud of some of those decisions. 00:12:09.430 --> 00:12:12.210 You just see what I'm saying. Yeah, no, I see exactly. I had never thought of 00:12:12.210 --> 00:12:17.370 it that way, but that's, yeah, I see, like. 00:12:17.450 --> 00:12:20.610 If I'm going to go buy a vehicle. How about that shirt that you're wearing today? Right. 00:12:20.910 --> 00:12:24.810 God doesn't care if I wear a green shirt or a red shirt. He probably wants me to wear a shirt. 00:12:25.430 --> 00:12:28.390 Yeah, well, I mean, most of the time. Most of the time. 00:12:28.590 --> 00:12:32.250 Yeah. You know, if I'm going to go buy a vehicle, I don't think God cares if 00:12:32.250 --> 00:12:36.210 I buy a red Ford or a blue Ford, as long as it's a Ford, because God's a Ford man. 00:12:37.870 --> 00:12:40.430 See, we're really stepping on some toes here now. Okay, anyway. 00:12:41.030 --> 00:12:42.930 But what about white pants after labor? 00:12:43.650 --> 00:12:46.610 Yeah, God says no to that. Oh, really? Okay, all right. 00:12:46.830 --> 00:12:48.090 Pretty sure. I didn't know that's where that came from. So anyway, 00:12:48.450 --> 00:12:55.870 so the question becomes, can someone go to hell for not choosing or not doing 00:12:55.870 --> 00:12:59.670 something that they were predestined to not do in the first place? 00:12:59.670 --> 00:13:02.430 Is that justice? No. 00:13:03.970 --> 00:13:06.950 No. No, definitely not. That's one of the problems I see. It's not, yeah. 00:13:07.590 --> 00:13:14.110 Right? I mean, simplifying it completely, literally. 00:13:14.590 --> 00:13:16.490 Okay, so we don't disagree. 00:13:17.070 --> 00:13:23.130 God can do whatever he wants, whenever he wants, right? Correct. Okay. 00:13:24.970 --> 00:13:34.530 So what is the point of all of life if it was all predestined? 00:13:34.950 --> 00:13:40.030 Like, why wouldn't he just predestine everybody to go to heaven? Right. 00:13:40.290 --> 00:13:44.950 You know what I mean? Right. So like, to me, it just, everything in the Bible 00:13:44.950 --> 00:13:46.650 doesn't make sense then. doesn't, 00:13:47.464 --> 00:13:52.284 All of the stories, all of the lessons, all of the no one comes to the father 00:13:52.284 --> 00:13:54.804 except through me. Like, you know, all of those things. 00:13:55.604 --> 00:14:00.144 Yeah. Agreed. Agreed. Which brings us to problem number two. Already? 00:14:01.004 --> 00:14:03.904 Well, I think these two kind of go together. Okay, okay. And that's why I'm 00:14:03.904 --> 00:14:05.944 saying it's bringing us to number two. Oh, okay. I see. Yep. 00:14:06.564 --> 00:14:13.904 The fairness and love of God. So does predestination make God seem unjust or 00:14:13.904 --> 00:14:19.724 unloving? Or in other words, why would a loving God choose some and not others? 00:14:21.384 --> 00:14:24.664 Yeah, you're right. That definitely leads into it because same thing. 00:14:24.784 --> 00:14:28.144 Like, why would he why would he do that? 00:14:28.384 --> 00:14:32.064 Yeah, that's not the God that I know. Right. Right. 00:14:32.524 --> 00:14:37.724 Like, I think that God chooses or chose all of us for salvation. 00:14:38.084 --> 00:14:42.364 His heart is that everyone would come to know him. Yep. 00:14:42.684 --> 00:14:46.864 And so, you know, every knee will bow, every tongue will confess that Jesus 00:14:46.864 --> 00:14:48.244 Christ is going to happen eventually. 00:14:48.884 --> 00:14:51.704 And I think God's heart is, is that all of us would know that now. 00:14:51.844 --> 00:14:54.104 And that's why we can say that God is love. Yeah. 00:14:54.404 --> 00:15:00.724 Because literally, literally everybody has an opportunity to say yes to Jesus. 00:15:01.464 --> 00:15:06.304 And, and I mean, I think about that for my kids. Like I have six children. 00:15:06.804 --> 00:15:13.544 I don't, I didn't choose some of them to have opportunities that the other ones didn't. 00:15:14.044 --> 00:15:18.684 You know what I mean? Like we, we try to be just, we are not equal. 00:15:18.884 --> 00:15:20.824 We do not treat our kids equally. Yeah. 00:15:21.084 --> 00:15:24.344 But we treat our kids justly. We treat them fairly. 00:15:24.744 --> 00:15:30.204 Sounds fair. Because. Fairly. Ha ha. Because some of them, they're all different. 00:15:30.544 --> 00:15:33.004 We have foster kids in our house. We have adopted kids from our house. 00:15:33.104 --> 00:15:37.224 We have, you know, I'm not going to treat three-year-old Olivia the same way 00:15:37.224 --> 00:15:38.604 that I treat 15-year-old Aiden. 00:15:38.924 --> 00:15:42.364 Yeah. So we don't treat them equally. We treat them fairly because our heart 00:15:42.364 --> 00:15:45.764 for all of them is their best. 00:15:46.084 --> 00:15:50.404 Yeah. And so I think that God. Well, everybody's best is different too. 00:15:51.443 --> 00:15:54.903 And so for God, like, I think that's my problem with predestination is why, 00:15:55.103 --> 00:16:01.483 like you're saying, like, why would God intentionally create people just to fail? Yeah. Yeah. 00:16:01.983 --> 00:16:05.563 You know, and that's where you also, this is a whole nother podcast topic, 00:16:05.563 --> 00:16:08.683 so I'll just brush across the surface. Yeah. 00:16:09.183 --> 00:16:13.003 The everybody goes to heaven no matter what. Yeah. 00:16:13.583 --> 00:16:18.643 Yeah. Universalism. Exactly. So, so it's the same debate there. 00:16:18.643 --> 00:16:21.803 Well then then what is the point of this life yeah 00:16:21.803 --> 00:16:24.403 you know so yeah but that's a 00:16:24.403 --> 00:16:27.223 whole other podcast whole other thing but that's where that thought comes from 00:16:27.223 --> 00:16:30.703 that's how you can debate against right that 00:16:30.703 --> 00:16:34.663 well and i think about like for jess and i like one of our one of our core convictions 00:16:34.663 --> 00:16:40.423 as parents with our kids is we try to never set our kids up to fail okay so 00:16:40.423 --> 00:16:48.503 we never intentionally put our kid in a position to mess up okay so like in our house we do not 00:16:48.643 --> 00:16:52.023 ask our kids questions that we know they're going to lie to us about. 00:16:52.823 --> 00:16:56.243 Ooh, okay. Right? So we're not going to look at them and say, 00:16:56.643 --> 00:17:01.163 did you do this? If we know for a fact they did it, we just state we know this 00:17:01.163 --> 00:17:05.763 happened because we're not going to set them up to lie to us and then get mad when they lie to us. 00:17:06.823 --> 00:17:11.323 That's an excellent idea. I'd never quite thought of that. Foster training. 00:17:11.923 --> 00:17:15.563 It's beautiful. Okay. But anyway, so that's one of our core convictions. 00:17:15.683 --> 00:17:19.783 So I think about that for God. Like, why would God create certain humans just 00:17:19.783 --> 00:17:22.583 to fail, just to give other ones a leg up? 00:17:22.683 --> 00:17:25.483 I just, I can't. Yeah, I can't prescribe to that. 00:17:26.523 --> 00:17:32.863 It doesn't fit anything that I've learned about God from the Bible, 00:17:33.083 --> 00:17:39.743 from, you know, people's experiences with God. I mean, people that have heard directly from God. 00:17:39.943 --> 00:17:46.603 I mean, that just, none of that fits for me. Yeah. Well, in most famous Bible 00:17:46.603 --> 00:17:47.823 verse in the whole Bible. 00:17:48.680 --> 00:17:52.760 John 3, John 3, 16, right. For God so loved the world that he gave his only 00:17:52.760 --> 00:17:55.840 begotten son that whosoever. Yep. 00:17:56.360 --> 00:18:01.260 So if, if you, if you think that if you, if you go to this idea that you're 00:18:01.260 --> 00:18:04.160 predestined for salvation, then whosoever isn't whosoever. Yeah. 00:18:04.660 --> 00:18:08.920 It's not whoever believes in him. It's whoever he chose to believe in him should 00:18:08.920 --> 00:18:10.640 not perish, but have everlasting life. 00:18:10.820 --> 00:18:15.020 But then again, back to the very beginning of the podcast, anybody that was 00:18:15.020 --> 00:18:20.320 predestined, predestined, if we're prescribing to that, how do you even know? 00:18:20.760 --> 00:18:26.140 You could live a great life and be loving and caring and live like Jesus, 00:18:26.140 --> 00:18:30.240 but if you weren't predestined, you're still not going to heaven. 00:18:30.420 --> 00:18:34.940 That just makes no sense in my mind. 00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:41.300 Well, and the challenge there too is like, what's the nature of grace? Yeah. 00:18:43.080 --> 00:18:47.840 Because predestination, if you follow that, grace is completely different. 00:18:48.120 --> 00:18:53.660 Because grace, in my definition, is unmerited, undeserved favor from God. 00:18:54.200 --> 00:18:58.520 But if grace is only extended to some, then it's not grace anymore. 00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:01.480 You're right. It's merit. Yeah. Yep. 00:19:02.600 --> 00:19:10.180 Yeah, and that's not part of it. Yeah. And it doesn't say anything about that in the Bible. 00:19:10.660 --> 00:19:12.560 Absolutely. Absolutely. 00:19:13.060 --> 00:19:16.420 So, evangelism. That's the next problem. 00:19:16.940 --> 00:19:25.920 Okay. Evangelism. If the elect are already chosen, why should we do evangelism in the first place? 00:19:25.920 --> 00:19:28.820 Exactly i mean you could 00:19:28.820 --> 00:19:32.600 you could argue that there is 00:19:32.600 --> 00:19:35.760 no there's no need to go 00:19:35.760 --> 00:19:42.020 to the ends of the earth to share god's word because whether they know god's 00:19:42.020 --> 00:19:48.860 word or not they're already predestined right i mean which by the way like there 00:19:48.860 --> 00:19:51.700 are probably some like christians in some churches that would be like, 00:19:52.060 --> 00:19:52.800 thank goodness, don't have to do that. 00:19:55.080 --> 00:19:59.140 I'm sure that's true. I'm sure that's true. But you're right. 00:19:59.240 --> 00:20:02.780 I mean, go to the ends of the earth. 00:20:03.800 --> 00:20:08.320 I mean, our sermon this past week was we talked some about the Great Commission, 00:20:08.440 --> 00:20:10.860 go into all the world and make disciples, right? 00:20:11.320 --> 00:20:16.360 Well, what's the point? If Bill over there is predestined to accept. 00:20:16.580 --> 00:20:18.280 I have no responsibility. 00:20:18.860 --> 00:20:20.240 Not to mention... 00:20:21.178 --> 00:20:27.598 If you're going out there and you're evangelizing, you assume that you're one 00:20:27.598 --> 00:20:29.178 of the chosen. But what if you're not? 00:20:29.918 --> 00:20:38.098 Ooh. You know? Can a predestined person who's predestined for hell lead a predestined person for heaven? 00:20:38.498 --> 00:20:43.898 See? I mean, that's how insane this is in my mind. 00:20:44.258 --> 00:20:48.158 You know what I'm saying? Oh, my brain. That makes me hurt. But that's the thing. 00:20:48.298 --> 00:20:50.258 Like, we think we know. Right. 00:20:50.858 --> 00:20:54.478 But in that scenario, God would be the only one who knew. Yeah. 00:20:55.058 --> 00:20:59.038 And to me, that just, maybe it's like. It doesn't make sense. It's like Twitter. 00:20:59.238 --> 00:21:04.578 You get like a verified badge. Oh, good grief. Yeah. Okay. You're verified. 00:21:05.218 --> 00:21:08.318 Bing. Yep. But I mean, but that is the question. 00:21:08.498 --> 00:21:15.178 Like, so we have absolutely, if God has chosen everyone, then we are completely off the hook. 00:21:15.458 --> 00:21:21.518 I have no need to evangelize. I have no need to practice discipleship. 00:21:21.698 --> 00:21:23.838 I have no need to teach my kids about Jesus. 00:21:24.098 --> 00:21:30.458 I have no need to do any of those things. You have no need to even be a good person. Right. 00:21:31.238 --> 00:21:38.978 You know? So, I mean, that's big. To me, that's big and that doesn't fit anything 00:21:38.978 --> 00:21:42.178 else that we've learned or that the Bible teaches. 00:21:42.478 --> 00:21:44.478 Agreed. In my opinion. Agreed. 00:21:45.138 --> 00:21:46.638 Absolutely. Because, yeah. 00:21:48.178 --> 00:21:51.698 So yeah last well motivation 00:21:51.698 --> 00:21:56.518 is the same is also in there yeah which i mean that the same thing i mean are 00:21:56.518 --> 00:22:01.718 you motivated to do anything if you're if the choice is already made for you 00:22:01.718 --> 00:22:09.018 right like no there's no motivation to do anything different absolutely than what you enjoy doing, 00:22:10.259 --> 00:22:14.979 Which is bizarre. I mean, it's irrational. 00:22:15.659 --> 00:22:19.139 Yes, it is. It's completely irrational. This whole thing is irrational. 00:22:19.319 --> 00:22:22.379 Yeah. If you're asking me, which you are. I am. 00:22:23.519 --> 00:22:25.639 All right, lastly. Hopefully, everybody else listening is asking us, 00:22:25.719 --> 00:22:29.619 too. Yeah. Otherwise, they've turned it off by now. Yeah. They're predestined 00:22:29.619 --> 00:22:31.079 to turn it off. Oh, God, grief. 00:22:31.979 --> 00:22:35.079 I can see this is going to be a running joke for a while. Yeah, it's going to happen. 00:22:36.359 --> 00:22:39.079 All right, last one. Last problem, as we saw it. 00:22:40.679 --> 00:22:46.959 Anxiety, assurance, and spiritual health, which I can tell you from the guy 00:22:46.959 --> 00:22:49.339 who sits in the pastor's chair, that's real. 00:22:49.619 --> 00:22:51.699 Oh, yeah. That is real. 00:22:52.459 --> 00:22:58.959 Personal concerns of what if I'm not chosen? What does that do for you? 00:22:59.939 --> 00:23:08.899 I can't imagine looking at somebody and saying, absolutely, no matter what you 00:23:08.899 --> 00:23:10.659 do, you're going to hell. 00:23:11.219 --> 00:23:16.159 Yeah, I mean, that's just, this is borderline insanity now. 00:23:16.399 --> 00:23:19.479 Yeah. I mean, the more we talk about it, the more I'm like, what in the world? 00:23:19.839 --> 00:23:29.419 I mean, yeah, because, but again, in that scenario, the only one who would really know would be God. 00:23:29.939 --> 00:23:35.839 Right. There's no other way for anyone on earth to know. 00:23:35.959 --> 00:23:40.319 Like, there's literally no way based on the Calvinist view. 00:23:40.699 --> 00:23:44.199 Right. Like, they could be a good person. They could be a bad person. 00:23:45.791 --> 00:23:52.711 And so you, you, you, like, I can know, like, I am sure right now that if, 00:23:52.771 --> 00:23:56.771 if this, if this studio were to blow up, I'm going to heaven. 00:23:56.991 --> 00:23:59.551 I know that from the bottom of my heart. Yep. I trust Jesus. 00:23:59.871 --> 00:24:02.251 Yep. He's my Lord. He's my savior. I've given my life to him. 00:24:02.551 --> 00:24:05.851 Yep. I screw up daily, but I trust in him for my source of salvation. 00:24:06.291 --> 00:24:10.671 And thus, like, right now, this thing blows up. I'm good. We're good. Yeah. 00:24:11.251 --> 00:24:14.911 But if predestination is true, I can't know that for sure. Well, yeah, you have, you. 00:24:15.451 --> 00:24:19.051 It's your flip of a coin right yeah right 00:24:19.051 --> 00:24:21.891 which kind of like to me it feels like oh well 00:24:21.891 --> 00:24:26.951 god's just kind of pulled a big okey-doke on us all right like huh thought gotcha 00:24:26.951 --> 00:24:32.091 i'm thinking about the creed creed song what's this life for you know what i 00:24:32.091 --> 00:24:37.371 mean yeah yeah you know so that i mean that's a struggle and it's also a struggle 00:24:37.371 --> 00:24:41.711 for okay god doesn't want us to live in like the state of fear and anxiety, 00:24:41.971 --> 00:24:45.391 but yet if there is no assurance, if you, if you don't know for sure, 00:24:45.871 --> 00:24:46.911 then you're going to live. 00:24:47.011 --> 00:24:50.451 I mean, you're going to live in fear. You're going to live in anxiety. 00:24:50.691 --> 00:24:54.631 Yeah. Just know it. Like if I were to look at my, like look at one of my kids 00:24:54.631 --> 00:24:59.031 and be like, Hey, no matter what happens, no matter what you do, 00:24:59.211 --> 00:25:03.611 no matter what you choose, when you're 13, I'm throwing you out of this house. 00:25:05.211 --> 00:25:09.451 Yeah, you're right. Yeah. Or to say, 00:25:10.271 --> 00:25:15.191 I guess predestination even takes it a step farther to say, no matter what you 00:25:15.191 --> 00:25:20.191 do, no matter what you choose, at 13, I've already decided if I'm going to throw 00:25:20.191 --> 00:25:21.951 you out of the house and I'm not going to tell you. 00:25:22.531 --> 00:25:26.371 Oh, man. You're right. That's how insane this whole thing is. 00:25:27.211 --> 00:25:30.171 Yeah. I didn't plan on saying the word insanity tonight. You've said it. 00:25:30.391 --> 00:25:32.691 I've said it quite a few times because the more we talk about it, 00:25:32.771 --> 00:25:35.351 the more it is destroying my brain. 00:25:35.551 --> 00:25:40.131 Yeah. Okay. So let's flip this around for a second if we're saying we don't 00:25:40.131 --> 00:25:42.751 believe in predestination do you believe in fate, 00:25:44.071 --> 00:25:48.251 fate in what sense like that there are certain things that they are it's fate 00:25:48.251 --> 00:25:51.651 it's gonna happen no matter what there are things that are laid out in your 00:25:51.651 --> 00:25:57.631 life that are going to happen and there's nothing you're gonna change about them oh man. 00:25:59.537 --> 00:26:04.277 I don't know if fate is the right word. Okay. 00:26:04.617 --> 00:26:12.837 Because I do think that all of our decisions that we make, it's almost like a pick your own story. 00:26:13.037 --> 00:26:15.657 Oh, I love this. You know what I'm saying? I love this. Like, 00:26:16.017 --> 00:26:19.877 you know, if you could go back in time, you had a choice to make. 00:26:20.017 --> 00:26:22.717 You picked this choice rather than this choice. 00:26:23.177 --> 00:26:28.777 I think your fate, so to speak, would be different depending on what choice 00:26:28.777 --> 00:26:30.817 you made. Does that make sense? Mm-hmm. 00:26:31.257 --> 00:26:35.697 I mean, just, I mean, putting me on the spot here thinking about that's how 00:26:35.697 --> 00:26:37.357 I'm seeing it in my mind. Mm-hmm. 00:26:37.697 --> 00:26:42.197 I mean, what is your thought on fate? Yeah, I mean, I think that there are the 00:26:42.197 --> 00:26:47.917 best way that I've tried to describe how I think about it is like, 00:26:48.097 --> 00:26:51.937 if you ever played like a racing game, they have checkpoints along the way. 00:26:52.077 --> 00:26:55.957 Okay, okay, okay. Like, I think that there are certain events in our lives that 00:26:55.957 --> 00:26:59.637 God has ordered in order that we would see him. 00:27:00.417 --> 00:27:05.537 There are markers along the way. Okay. And I think that we will go through those regardless. 00:27:06.317 --> 00:27:13.217 Okay. And how we respond to those will determine the direction of our lives. 00:27:13.317 --> 00:27:18.017 But I think that there are big events and things that God has already figured out. 00:27:18.777 --> 00:27:23.737 Like, for example, for us, I think about Olivia. There's nothing that Jess and 00:27:23.737 --> 00:27:27.917 I could have done to change the fact that Olivia was born with a birth defect. 00:27:28.497 --> 00:27:33.117 Yes. And, you know, with Riley, I could say the exact same thing for us. Absolutely. 00:27:33.377 --> 00:27:38.037 And so that was going to happen no matter what. Okay. Yeah. 00:27:38.597 --> 00:27:44.697 What led up to that and what happened after that, those were choices of our free will. 00:27:45.177 --> 00:27:48.537 Okay. I can agree with that. So that's putting it in that perspective. 00:27:48.917 --> 00:27:53.397 That makes sense to me. Right. Yes. I can agree with that. And so I think that 00:27:53.397 --> 00:27:56.817 there are things that God's like, I need for this to happen. 00:27:57.437 --> 00:28:00.817 And it will be their choice on how to handle it. 00:28:01.357 --> 00:28:08.177 It will be their choice on if it draws them closer to me or they run farther from me. Okay. 00:28:08.357 --> 00:28:10.517 But I am ordering this to happen. Okay. 00:28:10.937 --> 00:28:15.557 And I do think that there are things, I believe in listening to the spirit of God. 00:28:15.917 --> 00:28:22.057 And I think that there are clearly times when God's spirit wants us to do something. 00:28:22.257 --> 00:28:27.897 We still have free will, but God has an ultimate desire. So like, I don't know about you. 00:28:28.057 --> 00:28:35.117 I have, I have many times been wanting to go to, I'm going to go out to lunch. 00:28:36.636 --> 00:28:41.236 And I, for whatever reason, decide I'm going to Buffalo Wild Wings. 00:28:41.796 --> 00:28:46.476 I don't know it yet, but there is somebody at Buffalo Wild Wings that God needed me to talk to that day. 00:28:47.236 --> 00:28:53.656 I still had to choose it. Yeah. Right? But he put that in motion. 00:28:53.916 --> 00:28:56.956 You followed the nudges. Right. 00:28:57.416 --> 00:29:00.556 Yeah. You're like, I don't know why I'm supposed to come here, but I am. 00:29:00.836 --> 00:29:03.936 Right. or I mean even now like as a pastor like 00:29:03.936 --> 00:29:06.796 I would say at least two or three times a 00:29:06.796 --> 00:29:09.756 week I will reach out to somebody via text message 00:29:09.756 --> 00:29:14.276 or a phone call just because they're on my heart and at least one of those times 00:29:14.276 --> 00:29:18.376 they will be like you have no idea how bad I needed to hear from you today and 00:29:18.376 --> 00:29:22.216 and so I do think that there are things that God needs for us to do and if we 00:29:22.216 --> 00:29:26.336 don't do them I don't know if they go undone or God finds somebody else I still 00:29:26.336 --> 00:29:28.576 I think that varies from situation to situation. 00:29:28.756 --> 00:29:32.236 Yeah, I would say it depends on the... But if God's speaking to my heart and 00:29:32.236 --> 00:29:34.856 saying, John, I really need you to message this person today, 00:29:34.856 --> 00:29:38.256 I still have to choose to follow that. 00:29:38.776 --> 00:29:43.816 You think about how different our world today could be. 00:29:44.696 --> 00:29:47.196 This is kind of off topic, but what you're just talking about, 00:29:47.276 --> 00:29:53.836 how different our world could be if everyone was that in tuned to what God was 00:29:53.836 --> 00:29:57.296 speaking to them, whether they understood it or not. 00:29:57.396 --> 00:30:03.076 You might not know why you're being pushed to go to Buffalo Wild Wings until 00:30:03.076 --> 00:30:04.956 you get there and experience. 00:30:05.196 --> 00:30:09.116 And then God's like, hey, see, that's why I wanted you to go there. 00:30:09.216 --> 00:30:12.876 But just think if everybody in this world was in tune to that. 00:30:13.136 --> 00:30:17.096 Well, here's the thing. Maybe I said this in a sermon or I remember talking 00:30:17.096 --> 00:30:20.196 about this with a group of people here lately. Like someone said, 00:30:20.316 --> 00:30:22.216 like, how do you know it's the voice of God? 00:30:22.616 --> 00:30:28.776 And I'm like, I don't. But my thought is always, if it costs me nothing and 00:30:28.776 --> 00:30:35.116 it takes me less than two minutes and I think it might be God, I do it. That's fair. 00:30:35.636 --> 00:30:40.076 Yep. Like I, if I'm driving down the road and I'm like, I should message Jeremy 00:30:40.076 --> 00:30:43.296 and tell him I'm praying for him. That literally costs me nothing. 00:30:44.036 --> 00:30:47.436 It lasts, it takes less than 20 seconds. 00:30:48.116 --> 00:30:50.496 And if it wasn't, I don't think God's going to be like, John, 00:30:50.596 --> 00:30:52.696 you should have never text Jeremy and told him you were praying for him. 00:30:52.796 --> 00:30:53.976 What a horrible thing for you to do. 00:30:55.136 --> 00:30:57.976 Yeah, I don't think that would, that doesn't fit. Right. 00:30:58.156 --> 00:31:03.256 And so that's how, like, you know, that's how I follow a lot of those things. Yeah. 00:31:03.516 --> 00:31:06.456 And so there, there might be times that maybe God isn't telling me, 00:31:06.556 --> 00:31:09.176 maybe it's just the bad ravioli I had for dinner. 00:31:09.336 --> 00:31:13.016 I don't know. But if it costs me nothing and it takes me less than two minutes 00:31:13.016 --> 00:31:16.136 and it's going to be for somebody's good, I just do it. 00:31:16.496 --> 00:31:18.516 Yeah. Yeah, and that's a good way to look at it. 00:31:19.336 --> 00:31:22.536 I can appreciate that. Because I would, this could get into a whole other podcast 00:31:22.536 --> 00:31:24.996 too. I would debate that. We always end up there. 00:31:25.296 --> 00:31:31.136 Most of the time, we spend more time debating over whether something is God's 00:31:31.136 --> 00:31:32.696 will or not than we would actually do in the thing. 00:31:33.676 --> 00:31:36.016 Okay, yeah, I can believe that. 00:31:37.347 --> 00:31:42.727 All right, I got to tell you one thing that's been sticking in my mind here that keeps popping up. 00:31:43.767 --> 00:31:49.727 So I don't know about you, but growing up, it was always, you heard this age of accountability. 00:31:50.827 --> 00:31:54.107 Okay, and this could lead into a whole other podcast too. Oh yeah, it's coming. 00:31:54.347 --> 00:31:58.707 So age of accountability, I was always told like, you know, until you reach 00:31:58.707 --> 00:32:02.627 the age of accountability, which is a range, nobody would ever tell me an actual number. 00:32:02.847 --> 00:32:07.027 So it's the range of accountability. Yeah, the range of age of accountability. 00:32:07.947 --> 00:32:14.747 Anybody who, you know, say you die as a six-year-old, you're going to heaven, right? 00:32:15.907 --> 00:32:19.587 But predestination, maybe not. You know what I'm saying? 00:32:19.827 --> 00:32:26.087 Right. But when you look at children and the innocence of children, 00:32:26.307 --> 00:32:29.247 it makes sense to me, the age of accountability, 00:32:29.247 --> 00:32:34.407 when you can understand right from wrong and you can start making your decisions 00:32:34.407 --> 00:32:41.687 based on what you've learned and your moral compass that is taught to you by 00:32:41.687 --> 00:32:43.427 your parents and all those things. 00:32:43.427 --> 00:32:48.227 So, I mean, I have a really hard, I mean, I have a hard time with predestination 00:32:48.227 --> 00:32:51.367 anyway, but when you start talking about children, I mean, that, 00:32:51.367 --> 00:32:55.427 that sounds even more ungodly or ungodlike. 00:32:56.327 --> 00:33:01.767 Yeah. I think an age of accountability podcast probably needs to happen. Okay. 00:33:01.967 --> 00:33:06.527 All right. Because I know like my opinion on that has changed a lot in 15 plus 00:33:06.527 --> 00:33:07.967 years of pastoral ministry. Okay. 00:33:08.247 --> 00:33:13.147 My mind has changed on that a lot. Okay. And so. I'm game. Let's go. Yeah. Yeah. 00:33:13.827 --> 00:33:16.247 In all seriousness, though, because we could do this all night, 00:33:16.467 --> 00:33:21.607 if you are listening and you are pro-predestination and you would be willing 00:33:21.607 --> 00:33:26.727 to come on the podcast, reach out. That would be a very interesting conversation. 00:33:26.947 --> 00:33:30.167 Yeah. I would appreciate the conversation, actually. 00:33:30.407 --> 00:33:34.207 And we can set it up on Zoom, so if you're not from here, we can get you in. 00:33:35.227 --> 00:33:39.187 If you're from here, we can meet up. It's not a big deal. We'll make it happen. 00:33:39.627 --> 00:33:43.347 But we would love, I mean, you've heard our opinions. Yep. 00:33:44.607 --> 00:33:48.627 And we would love to talk to you. Yes, agreed. Wait, wait, wait, wait. 00:33:49.187 --> 00:33:52.747 We can't end yet. We got to end with food. It always ends with food. 00:33:52.787 --> 00:33:54.907 It always ends with food. And everybody expects it. It is true. 00:33:55.567 --> 00:33:57.927 So what kind of food are we going to end with? I mean, we started with maple 00:33:57.927 --> 00:34:01.747 spam. Maple spam. It was pretty good. How about smoked bologna? 00:34:01.967 --> 00:34:04.727 Dude, if you've never smoked a bologna chub. Yeah. 00:34:05.327 --> 00:34:08.027 If you've never. We should do like a contest. 00:34:08.807 --> 00:34:13.287 Okay. And like the winner of the contest gets to come have smoked bologna chub with us. 00:34:15.127 --> 00:34:19.827 You're, you're really, you're really counting on that. 00:34:20.067 --> 00:34:24.667 Somebody would actually want to come spend time with us. I think they would really. Yeah. 00:34:25.207 --> 00:34:28.727 We'll have them on the podcast. You get to be a guest. We'll give you a smoked 00:34:28.727 --> 00:34:30.267 bologna sandwich. Okay. 00:34:31.388 --> 00:34:35.308 Yeah, and if you want to, you can spend time with us. Well, they want to. 00:34:35.508 --> 00:34:36.768 Okay. Unless like our wives win. 00:34:37.608 --> 00:34:39.588 Wait a minute, say that one more time? Unless our wives win. 00:34:39.668 --> 00:34:42.508 They might not want to spend any more time with us. That's fair. 00:34:43.728 --> 00:34:47.808 Smoke bologna chub. Smoke bologna chub. Shout out to the boys down at Fat Boys 00:34:47.808 --> 00:34:49.688 Barbecue in Broadway. Yes. 00:34:49.888 --> 00:34:53.408 The first time I had a smoked bologna chub. Yep. And it changed my life. Yes. 00:34:54.188 --> 00:34:57.488 Yes. But now we have smoked multiple bologna chubs. 00:34:57.848 --> 00:35:02.668 And made some barbecue bologna burnt ends. Yeah. Let me tell you. 00:35:03.588 --> 00:35:06.648 This is the delicacy that we have. We smoked a bologna chub. 00:35:06.928 --> 00:35:11.228 It goes on potato bread with the smoked bologna. Yep. 00:35:11.808 --> 00:35:16.568 Barbecue sauce. Homemade barbecue sauce. Special sauce. Special barbecue sauce. 00:35:17.148 --> 00:35:19.988 Martin's potato chips. Yep. And a piece of government cheese. 00:35:20.728 --> 00:35:26.368 What kind of cheese did you just say? Government cheese. You mean government cheese. 00:35:23.440 --> 00:35:35.280 Music. 00:35:28.348 --> 00:35:34.528 All right. All right. And I think we've given them enough. Good night. 00:35:36.268 --> 00:35:39.968 And that's a wrap for this week's Life on 11 podcast. As always, 00:35:40.128 --> 00:35:44.148 we hope that you will subscribe to this podcast wherever you get your feeds from. 00:35:44.328 --> 00:35:48.668 You can follow us on our social media channels by searching at Life on 11 podcast. 00:35:49.008 --> 00:35:53.648 And one of the best ways you can support what we do is to share this episode with your friends. 00:35:53.788 --> 00:35:57.348 We hope you will join us next time on the Life on 11 podcast where faith is 00:35:57.348 --> 00:36:00.708 loud and God's truth is louder. If this episode stirred your spirit, 00:36:00.868 --> 00:36:02.468 share it with someone who needs a little hope today. 00:36:02.808 --> 00:36:06.568 Stay bold, stay rooted, and remember, we're called to not do the kingdom halfway. 00:36:06.968 --> 00:36:09.508 Keep living loud for Jesus. We'll see you next time.