Morgan Teruel: Thanks for tuning in to the Sandals Church podcast. Our vision as a church is to be real with ourselves, God, and others. We're glad you're here, and we hope you enjoy this message.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: You know, people come to Sandals now, and they think, oh, it's a big church, and it's always been this way. And they don't realize, man, that it was always, you know, 5050 whether we're gonna make it or not. The vision of, of our church was born in this house. What name is it gonna be? Well, it's Sandals Church.
What's our vision? It's it's real, real with self, real with others, real with God.
Tammy Brown: We never anticipated being here, looking back at how faithful God's been, how significant people have been.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Lives have truly been changed at Sandals through relationships, through people walking alongside with people and changing them in community. That's what Sandals' vision is all about. It's about reaching people so that this real gospel, this story about becoming real with Jesus, changes their lives.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Hey, Saddle's Churchman. Today is a super special day. It is our 25th anniversary as a church. Can you guys give it up? Incredible.
So Tammy, informed me this week that I've been lying for 25 years. I know that's not probably shocking to many of you, but I've been telling people that I started this when I was 27, and she informed me this week that I was, in fact, 26. So here's what's weird is I was 26. You were 23. So think about that.
I've been your pastor 1 year, less than I was alive when I started. She's been your pastor's wife 2 years more than she was alive when we started. And so you should have a lot of grace because we did not know what we were doing. Like, look at your average 23 25 year old and just say, could I follow them? And if you're 23 or 25, would you follow yourself?
It's it's all I'm saying. So I I think we need to have just a lot of grace. Sandals is a work of God, a miracle of God. But Tammy's joining me here today because I've asked her, and, you know, if this thing blows up, it's my fault. So thank you for being here today.
Yeah. Appreciate it. So
Tammy Brown: No. It's such an honor to be here today and join Matt for this message that marks 25 years of being different.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: This falls that milestone for us since we've planted Sandals Church, and it's incredible just to think back about that it's been 25 years. So, as we're in this series, specifically in Ephesians chapter 3 verses 2021
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. There we go.
Tammy Brown: Which say, now to him who is able to do far more abundantly than all that we ask or think according to the power at work within us, to him be glory in the church forever and ever. Amen.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Amen.
Tammy Brown: As we're looking at 25 years of being different and and what that looks like and what we've learned along the way, how does this verse tie in with that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. So, specifically, you know, when I read when I read Ephesians 3 20 and 21, right, now to him who is able to do far more than I could ever ask for or imagine, I had never heard of a multisite church when we started. That wasn't a concept. That was not a thing. I'd never heard of anyone even having a secondary campus.
We have 14 campuses. And so, the beauty of Saint Louis Church is, right, god has a plan for your life. He has a plan for my life. He has a plan for our church. And and I just want you to know, it's it's beyond even what you can imagine.
You know, we're trying to figure out the future. God's already there, and he already understands that. And we were actually talking with a group of, pastors last week. It was bizarre. Right?
We're the old croggedy ones now. And, you know, all these church planters from around the world are like, tell us what it was like in the nineties. You know? I was like, well, we rode our horses to church. But here's the thing is, you know, so when we started, megachurch was the thing.
And then it then it's become multisite. And what I said I told these individuals, I said, look. You you think you're gonna be multisite? I said, whatever god has in the future, you don't even know what that is yet. And so oftentimes in the church, yesterday's solution is today's problem.
And so we just have to really understand. God, wherever you wanna take us, what whatever you want to do with us, god, we want to go. And my prayer for you is that you just look at Sandals Church. This isn't about us. This is about what God's done through us, and this is about what God can do through you today.
Because 25 years ago, we had 3 people come to church. You didn't even come.
Tammy Brown: I was sick and sick kids.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: She didn't come. I and I preached to 3 people. I can only remember 1 guy that was there. His name is Chris. He doesn't go to Sandals any longer.
And in the middle of my sermon, he raised his hand. He had a question. Not about anything I was talking about. And and here's the thing is, everything in me wanted to quit that day. Everything in me.
You know, Tammy and I had shared with our pastor, and this is no slight on him. It's a difficult job as as as I have discovered being a pastor and managing youth pastors. I love you. You're challenging. So we were youth pastors, so we were challenging.
And and I had a meeting with him where I expressed, you know, Sunday, I wanna plant a church, and so he let me go that day. So so we were rushed into this, and, you know, I think there was there was there there was some time where I was bitter and upset about that. But the truth is, you need to immediately get after whatever God's calling you to do today. And and if somebody hurts your feelings, wounds you to get you where you're supposed to be, to get you on track with God. Let that go and get on with God.
And and that's what I would have said to us is, you know, people are gonna be imperfect. They're gonna hurt your your your feelings. They're not gonna, you know, handle your heart well. Forget about that. Start following Jesus.
Get after that because that pain only leads to bitterness, and and bitterness is not gonna lead you to the better path that god has. And so, when I read this verse now, it has such a different meaning. And so I would say this. Some of you are like, well, I'm too old. No.
You're not. You're never too old to start working for eternity. So so it's not too late. If you're breathing, God has a plan for you. And and if you're too young, you try, oh, I'm too young.
No. No. Look at us. Like, we had no idea what what we were doing, how to do it. We made every mistake.
I've always said if I ever write a book on how to start a church, it will be how not to start a church. So many Christians are paralyzed because you're waiting for God to do something. So listen to me. You cannot do anything without God, but God will not do anything great in you your life without you. So you have to start moving.
You have to some of you are you're praying for God to move. God is praying for you to move. Do something. Do something with your life. And and God has given you your life as a gift.
Stop wasting it. You know, so many of us, we're on our phones watching everyone else's life. We we go to the movies and we watch fake lives. But God has a plan for your life. And in the midst of all this chaos, God wants to write you into his story as a hero.
Mhmm. You play an essential part in this story, and you need to jump into that. So let me say this. This is huge. God does not bless mediocrity.
One of the things that I've encountered in 25 years is people are just kinda like, you're brilliant at work. You come to church. That ticks me off. We should give God our very best. The the best Christians in the world today are not leading the church.
They're they're leading their own empires, their own companies. They're making money for themselves, and it's why the church is so backwards and broken. Listen to me, parents. I know you have plans for your kids. One of those knuckleheads needs to be the next pastor of our church.
It might be your knucklehead.
Tammy Brown: Forever.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: It might be your knucklehead. 25 years from now, it will not be us. Okay? We we're gonna be in a rest home eating Jell O. So it's not gonna
Tammy Brown: not wrong.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: It's not gonna I mean, she's gonna eat Jell O. I hate Jell O. She loves Jell O.
Tammy Brown: I'll eat my Jell O.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: She makes it every Thanksgiving. I never eat it. I can't stand it. You know? Jell O says we couldn't afford dessert.
That's what that's that's what it says to me. That's just that's my that's my opinion. So here's the thing is, God does not bless mediocrity. And and so many churches today, the reason they're shrinking, the reason we're not making a difference is we're just okay with the status quo. Man, if and I know there's gonna be people watching from other churches.
This isn't about Sandals. This is about what God could do at your church. And and here's here's our heart. It's not just to grow Sandals' church. It's to grow his church.
We wanna grow his church all across the world. We want to see authentic believers changing a broken world. And and and so many people, you're just okay with okay. Why? Just ask God.
What keeps me up at night is I always know, even as much as Sandals has done, I know there's more. I know there's more that God can do. I I know there's more that God wants to save. I know there's more lost people that God wants to save. And and and I know I gotta get out of that get out of his way, and I just gotta say, God, use me.
So let me say this. God does not bless sin. He blesses repentance. So I wanna encourage you. Man, if you if you're not living the life God has for you, stop today at the end of service.
Repent. Go forward. Ask for prayer and just say, you know what? I need to get on God's team. I need to I need I need to get with what he's doing.
And and we're gonna talk about that. And so so, again, I don't want this just to be about us. I want you to look at us and go, okay. That that could be my story. Mhmm.
And God may not call you to plant a church, but he has called you to his church. And here's the thing. Your role at Sandals is just as important as our role. Yes. You know people we don't know.
You have gifts we don't have. God is gonna give you a word he does not give to us. So quit asking god to bless you like he's blessed us and ask God to bless you like he wants to bless you and be you.
Tammy Brown: Now that's so good, Matt. And you really spoke to God's part and how he meets us in that scripture. But the scripture is such a dance between what God has and the power within us and us. Mhmm. So how do you think this speaks to us in that?
Like, what is our part in experiencing the truth of the scripture?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. So I want you to really unpack I mean, really spend some time this week in your community groups. I really unpacked some some thoughts. But here's the thing I want you to think about is when you unpack those questions, what's God's part in your life and what's your part in your life? God has given you a life to live.
It's time for you to start living. God has given you a mind. It's time for you to start thinking. You you are I I think sometimes Christians use god's control as a crutch and an excuse for why their life sucks. God didn't create you for you to have a horrible life.
Jesus said, I didn't come so you'd have a lame life. He said, I've come that you may have life and have it abundantly. Remember last week, we talked about some of you in sin have wandered from the life that God has for you. Like, there's God's life, God's plan, and then there's your life, there's your plan. And and let me say this.
I knew early on that I was called to be a pastor. So when I was in public education, in the 19 eighties, I know you're like, what was that? They used to give you a test to discover what you were supposed to be. I kid you not. When I got my test results back, I didn't know what the word was.
I'd never heard it before. This is at a public high school. The word was clergy. It sounds like a disease. Right?
I didn't know what clergy was. And, my English teacher, missus Brown, no relation to me, everyone you know is named Brown. She just said, oh, sweetie, you should know what that is. That's what your dad does. And I was like, my dad's not clergy.
He's a he's a pastor, you know. But but even as a young man, god was working in my life. And and I want everyone to listen to me. The more I ran from god's calling, the more painful my life, be just just unfolded into. I mean, my life just got worse.
God's not gonna get up give up on you, and he's not gonna let you go. And so here's the thing is, what you have to to do in order to truly be successful as a Christian, whether in business, in your marriage, in your life, as single, whatever it is, if you want the absolute best k, god. I I want you to bless my life. You have to define success. Because here's the thing is, success is your why.
And the reason so many of you are miserable I believe this. Misery comes from a lack of clarity. You don't have your why. And if you don't have your why, you just don't know what to do. So we have a whole generation that's seeking to be happy.
Happy is a result of you finding your why. Yes. Happy is not the why. And so when they chase happiness, man, they're miserable. And so so I have to constantly define my for myself.
God, who have you called me to be? What have you called me to be? And even as your pastor over 25 years, I I've watched pastors forget their why. They become more interested in Hollywood, politics. They get distracted by, fashion.
I mean, I've seen all kinds of nutty stuff. I'm like, you're designing purses? You know? Okay. You know?
And these are these are truly gifted, talented, amazing people that god has called. And so, you know, when Tammy and I sat down with Harper Collins, to sign my first book deal, I said, you guys need to understand. We're we're pastors first. We were not changing that. We're not traveling around the world.
We're we're we're we're we're going to pastor this church. And if if you're not okay with that, then, you know, we're not interested. And I was surprised. You know, we were at the Mission Inn in in Riverside, and they'd flown out to see us. And they're like, yeah.
That's that's actually what we want, which I thought was weird. But I said, okay. And they gave me a check, and we took it. So you know? But but here's the thing is, the best blessings for your life will come from following God's will for your life.
And you and you have no idea. You have no idea. And, so just really pray about, okay, god. What what is the vision for my life? And so, Tammy's gonna really kinda help me unpack this for you because I think this is key for all of you going forward and as we move forward as a church.
Tammy Brown: It's been such an interesting season for Matt and I just thinking about the 25 years, all that we've learned, and coming into a space where we're we find ourselves with such gratitude for even the hardships because it's given us the fortitude to have the endurance to keep on keeping on, to be here 25 years later with 1 church. And so preparing for this message, you outlined 7 goals that have been key
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Right.
Tammy Brown: To the success of the staying. So we're gonna walk through those 7.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Right.
Tammy Brown: 1st goal is spiritual.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: Why is that?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Because God's God's most important. And I know that sounds cliche, but most Christians forget that. God has to be number 1. So I don't care if you're I don't care if you're professional. You're you you you are building a business.
You're you're building your career. You're pursuing academics. God has to be number 1 because everything else is a terrible number 1. It's a terrible number 1. Nothing else is worth your time, effort, and energy.
Nothing. Not your love life, not your sex life, not your financial life. If anything is number 1, that god is way too small. And so so I I I understood early on that when I had the wrong number 1, my life was awful. Absolutely awful.
And you got to date me for a period of that time, and so,
Tammy Brown: That was good times. Yeah.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: That was good times. Yeah. We were talking with your mom, and this morning on the way to church, I I I told, your mom. I said, tell Tammy I'm a great husband. And your mom said, well, I had my doubts.
So, thank you for that, Kathy. We appreciate appreciate your authenticity. But but here's the thing is, what radically changed my life was god. Radically changed my life. It reprioritized it.
It redirected it. It really awakened me with vision. And and here's the thing is, man. Your life on your own is too small for you, but your life with God is bigger than anything you could ever ask for or imagine. Listen to what Paul is
Tammy Brown: saying. Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: There there there are things that that you don't understand. There there are there are tables that I'm seated around now where I used to watch these people on TV. Mhmm. And now they're asking me what I think. And I'm like and and Jesus said listen what he said.
He said, if you follow me, you will testify for before kings. You will sit in the seats of power if you just trust me. If you follow your own power, you're just gonna be miserable and because you don't have a voice. Listen. If you feel unheard, start letting god speak through you because that's what people wanna hear.
Yeah. They don't care. I know this is shocking. They don't care what I have to say. People come to sandals because I've chosen to let god speak through me, and people hear that and feel that and experience that.
And and and so so what that means for me, number 1, I read my bible every day. Every single day, I know some of you are concerned because I don't have it out here when I'm preaching, but here it is. I I know some of my We
Tammy Brown: still can't read it.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. I can't read it at all. But, well actually it says it says Luke. I'm not even in Ephesians. So
Tammy Brown: yeah. That's why we have the big print out today.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. I'm in the wrong book of the bible. Sure.
Tammy Brown: Do you wanna use mine? Yeah. Do you
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: remember one of my favorite, lines in, oh, man. Oh, shoot. What's the pirate movie, Disney?
Tammy Brown: Pirates of the character.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: When he's reading the Bible and he says, man, you got that upside down. He's in the boat. That's how I feel right now. So at least at least my book is right side up. But so so I read through my Bible every day, and here's the thing.
To speak for God, you need to be hearing from God. And and you cannot speak from God unless you've heard from him. And so many I hear this all the time from Christians. Well, I've never heard God speak through me. Why would he give you an audible word when you haven't listened to his written word?
Every single day. And I learned I have to hold myself accountable. So if you read through my, my bible, you're gonna see every single day when I read, I I write the date in it because it holds me accountable. Because I know when I've skipped today. I know when I've missed today.
And so I wanna hear from God every single day, and it's amazing to me. I mean, you guys I'm a Christian, though. I read through the Bible. It's boring. Well, then you haven't read through the Bible, Because at first, you read through the bible for information, then you read through it through transformation.
And then it's it it goes from becoming historical facts to everyday reality, and god starts speaking to you. And and I can't tell you how many times I've just gotten a word for the Lord for my marriage, for my kids. So you need a word from God every day, and, start with God's word. And don't be afraid to be a beginner. So many people are afraid to not know and not understand.
And there are some things that I had to read through 10 or 12 times over a period of a decade before I went, oh. And here's what I've learned. The answers I don't understand are the answers I'm not ready for yet. I'm just not ready. God's like, you know what?
You know, the apostle Paul says that. He said, I wish I could give you meat, but you're you're ready for milk. He said, you're a baby. And so if you're a baby in your faith, you know, expect baby food. It tastes gross, you know, and that's why you're like, you know, it's Well, you need to grow up so God can actually feed you a steak.
So I I hear from God every day through his word. I pray to God throughout the day. I'm constantly praying. When I wake up in the middle of the night, I'm I'm praying. Prayer is not something that I do separate from my life.
It's something that is integrated throughout my life. I probably repent. I mean, you know, probably
Tammy Brown: Probably a lot.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. Probably a lot. You know, a a a lot of what I talk to God about is just my sin. I'm like, lord, I'm so sorry for that. That was terrible.
That was awful. And, you know, I really believe in first John 19. You know, when we confess our sins to God, He is faithful and just to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and I'd rather live clean. And so I just Oh, God. That was a dark thought.
I'm so sorry. And I just confessed it. And so, and then God starts to speak to me. You know, so that's the thing in conversation. I feel God.
I hear God. I sense God. And then this is key, and some of you are gonna you're gonna really struggle with this. If you wanna find God's will for your life, you're gonna find it by serving in his church. He does not have a plan b.
There's no plan b. The church's plan a, it's the only plan. I know it's broken. I know it's messed up. Look at you're a member.
Amen. Right? Look at you. We're all a mess. But in the midst of this mess, God is moving.
God is working, and it's it's it's absolutely beautiful thing. And so I found my life by serving the church. Whatever I gotta do. And just so you guys know, you know, at some point, you know, for Tammy and I, we're not gonna be leading here. It's our prayer to still be serving here.
Mhmm. So, like, we went out to Palm Springs, last week, and I thought we were getting murdered. Did you?
Tammy Brown: I did send our team our location just in case
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: So they needed to come find us. I dropped that pin.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: This random guy, through a friend of mine was like, hey. Will you speak to a bunch of church planners in Palm Springs? And so I assume hotel. Right? That's normal.
Hotel?
Tammy Brown: Okay. Conference center.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Conference center.
Tammy Brown: Retreats.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: And we're driving through these, like, was it date fields?
Tammy Brown: Mhmm.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Palm Springs, and I'm
Tammy Brown: like, okay.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: The cartel is out here. We go through this private gate. The house has 13 bedrooms. It's just really freaky. I'm like, their body's buried in the yard.
But, but we went out there, and we just for 3 and a half hours, 4 hours Mhmm. Just talked to church planters, prayed over pastors. And if you're a pastor who's who's listening, I know it's tough and and God's sheep have teeth. I'm sorry. They bite.
But, you know, hang in there. And on the way out, they gave us a check. And she's like, you remember what you said, Joel, they're gonna pay us? I was like, I I don't know. And we don't do this we don't do this because we get paid.
We do this because we feel called. Mhmm. And you and I sat, we had dinner, had a great steak, Palm Springs. Thank you. You guys know how to cook.
And we just said, this is what we wanna do with our life. Mhmm. We wanna pour into the church. So if you're a married couple and you've had a hard marriage, why not take those stories and those experiences and pour into a young couple? You know, if you're battling with same sex attraction, why not pour into a young LGBTQ plus person in our church and say, look.
You can make it. I've made it. You know? You you see you see families with 2 year olds. They're they're terrorists, man.
Pray for and come alongside our parents who are are are raising young kids in a world where everyone's looking at them. Mhmm. Nowadays, parents parents are being, you know, photographed and filmed from every angle, and they feel all this pressure. Come alongside them, love them, care for them. And and here's the thing that you and I've learned is god has used our deepest wounds Mhmm.
Wounds to create the most incredible miracles.
Tammy Brown: And we didn't know in the moment. It just felt like a wound. Yeah. But in hindsight Well,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: it was a wound.
Tammy Brown: It was a wound.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: It was not just a wound, though. It was growth and opportunity and and character building. And if we just continue to see it as just wounds,
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: then
Tammy Brown: we miss out on what God has for us in that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. And don't be don't be afraid to embrace suffering. Jesus had to suffer on a cross, betrayed by his own friends, denied by his own family, turned in by his own people. And and he went all of went through all of that so that he could become the name that is above all names. And so part of the reason that you and I are who we are today is because we had to go through some really difficult things.
And I prayed that God would take them away Mhmm. And he didn't. He let us go through them, not because he hates us, but because he loves us. And so, so, man, marry yourself to God every day. Marry yourself there.
Tammy Brown: Speaking of, younger me would have probably been pretty salty to not have been that number one goal.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. I apologize.
Tammy Brown: 25 years later, me finds myself in conversations, with our adult kids
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: Telling, especially our daughters who both were married this last year, here's what here's why you don't wanna be number 1 in your person's life because you want them to love God more than you. Because when they do that, they would do right by you even when they're upset at you, don't feel in love with you because they wanna be right with God when they don't necessarily care about being right with you. Amen. Can you talk about why family is your second goal
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: Out of this list?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: I think I think when your your spouse is your number 1 or your kids are your number 1, it puts too much pressure on them. So we went to see, Jordan Peterson this last week at the Fox Theater, and, his wife said something really interesting. Did you catch it? So Jordan Peterson sounds like a Christian. I I don't think he is.
I think he's wise and brilliant, but I don't think he's born again. But his wife said she was relieved when they had kids to no longer be his total focus. It's a lot of pressure when you're somebody one's when you're someone's everything. And and Tammy can't be my number one because she's not built for that. God alone can handle a 100% of my my love, my energy, my time, my focus.
That doesn't change God. It glorifies God. It will destroy her.
Tammy Brown: This is why we fight on vacation because it's just like the 2 of us.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. We're staring at each other.
Tammy Brown: Okay? Work for people. It's just like Yeah. I need you to go to the gym.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. Yeah. So my wife is my number 2, And, and that's important because we drive ourselves crazy. You know? Tammy Tammy is not always perfect.
I'm not always perfect. God is always perfect. And so, you know, I need to make sure that I I have him, you know, number 1, and she's right after him. She's more important than you guys. I love you.
She's more important than our kids. Right? Like, if our kids move out, I'm successful. Amen, parents? You know?
If she moves out, that's a failure. Like, I that that didn't go right. And so so God is number 1. My family is number 2. But I wanna talk about what that looks like, especially, for our husbands who are present because I think it's so hard today to know what it means to be a husband and a spiritual leader.
So what this means for me is I wanna provide, as a husband, stability and safety in my home. And what I learned early on, young guys, is I was the greatest threat to that. So when we first got married, I think I was like this, and you were more like this. I've become like this, and you've become a little more like this. And so what what I learned was my sole responsibility, spiritual leadership begins with providing stability.
I'm not leaving. I'm not destroying this family. I'm here. And so, guys, that means we don't do stupid things financially. We don't relive our childhood when we're 40.
You know? I always wanted to be a race car driver. Yeah. But you're you can't. So so I provide stability, and and that is the sole role.
So so what is God? God is stable. He's the same today as he was yesterday, as he is tomorrow, as he is forever. And so part of being a spiritual leader in the home is being that constant thing. And it's one of the things that's so important for our kids and for our wives is to be stable.
Mhmm. K? So I I need to be there for her as she processes, as she feels, as she, you know, talks about all the things she wants to do, I I've gotta be stable for her because one of the things I've noticed is when I'm like this, she's not okay. It really messes up my kids. It really messes up my my wife.
It mess up it messes up our church. And so I've I've gotta find that. So when I'm like this, I go to my friends, I go to a counselor, I unpack that, and then I talk to her appropriately about, okay, here's what I'm feeling. But I don't just let it fly. You know, she doesn't get the rough draft.
She gets
Tammy Brown: I mean, I have before. This is why he has this wisdom now to Yeah. Later.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Like, guys, if you ever say this to your wife, I'm just being real. That's that's wrong. That's wrong. Next, I think for our kids, I want them to know more in anything that that they're loved. You know, all 3 of my kids are so unique and so different.
I I want them to grow up in a loving home. And and and if you're a Christian father, your father in heaven loves you. Your kids need to know that you love them. Mhmm. Say it.
Say it. Say it. Say it. I love you. I love you.
I'm proud of you. And if you're, you know, you're like, well, I'm not proud of them. We'll find something to be proud of. You know? Because they're doing something good and speak into that.
I'm proud of you. And and just really, really share that with your kids. And then this last one is important to me. You know, when we remember we used to try to do, like, bible studies with our kids? It was it was terrible.
Tammy Brown: Family circle?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Family circle. You know? So we had, like, a 12 year old, a 10 year old, and a 6 year old. The 6 year old is fighting or farting. You know, the 10 year old's like, he farted, and the 12 year old's like, this is so lame.
So I would not do and this was I I I just don't believe in, like, family bible study. Here's what I believe. As an adult, you do the bible study, figure out the verse, and then teach it to your kids. Mhmm. And so to, you know, talk to your kids.
And here's what I want my kids to know. I want my kids to know my faith in God is real. It's not something I do on Sundays. It's something that they see constantly in my life. And I think that's what the Shema God's Jesus said is the most important commandment.
Hear, oh, Israel. The lord your god is 1. And it talks about that our children it it makes no mention of of quoting scripture, memorizing scripture. It says, talk about my commands in the morning, in your coming, in your going, when you eat. And, you know, like, when you walk, it's integrate your faith into life.
And so let them know, look. And so when I speak to my son, son, here's what I think God wants for you. And if you use a verse, use a verse. But let God use that verse through you. And when you speak to your daughters, here's what I want for you.
Here's what's best for you. I know
Tammy Brown: you Remind them about what's true about God. That's what we try to do over and over. It's like, here's what we know is true about God.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. Because we live in a world where God has made fun of and and put down and
Tammy Brown: It's made seem ridiculous.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. It's it's it's made to seem ridiculous. And what's ridiculous to me is modern life. Nothing seems to work, but people who love God are happier and healthier. And and Harvard, the atheist university, keeps wondering why that is.
I don't know. So
Tammy Brown: Before we go into number 3, I wanna hit back to something you said right at the beginning, which was setting those goals. And that's something you and I did early on in our ministry was say at the end of all of this, what's the win? Is it that we're the biggest church on the planet, that, you know, everyone knows about what the work of Sandals Church is? And we had to come down to the win for us is that at the end of all of this, we are still married and we still love God and that our children know that God is real in their lives. And I think that is reflected in how you've outlined your goals today.
So this next one is super important to both of us. Your 3rd goal is one of the things that I think has been the most challenging thing in our 25 years of ministry, which is navigating and managing relationships.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: It's been our deepest wounding and our greatest joy. Can you speak to that goal?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. I would just say, friendships are hard. I think the world does not understand how to cultivate friendships. I think we we see it, like, you know, from afar, but we don't experience it. And what I would just say is I think the lie that the devil whispers in your ears, you're the only one without a friend, I think most people don't have a friend.
And so here's one of the things that I've had to learn. I want to be a good friend. Mhmm. Why is that? I realized I wasn't.
And I started to interact with pastors, people that if I said their names, you would know. You've listened to their bible studies. They they could give you a 5 point sermon on relationships. They are terrible people in relationships. And they're in their ivory towers.
They're divorced from people. You know, we were at this thing and, you know, Tammy's favorite pastor. I'm not gonna say who it is, but it's Craig Groeschel.
Tammy Brown: I couldn't meet him.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. So she she told me she's like, I don't wanna meet him. So we're we're in this small gathering and there's, like, I don't know, 30, 40 pastors in there, and I'm like, we're gonna meet him. Like, I there's 1 coffee bar. There's, like, 5 tables, and, she's like, you can't make me meet him.
And I'm like, fine. Kid you not. 1st day, Craig Rochelle. Hey, Matt. Come have lunch with us.
And she she just took off.
Tammy Brown: I need Craig Rochelle to be everything I believe he is. And and today, he's still that.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. And the truth is, not that Craig is watching anything that I say, but, he he is he is he is a good guy, and I think he has a healthy relationship. But I learned I wasn't a good friend. And and this really became clear for me in my forties in my forties, I realized. I I think especially if you're a strong personality, you tend to tell people how to live, but you don't interact with them and live with them.
And I realized that so much of my relationships became one directional. Like, my profession is weird. Like, I'm talking to you, and you're just you're just listening. That does not happen anywhere else in life. You You know?
Tammy Brown: Turns out friends don't love that either.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Friends don't love that either. You know, they're not they're my friends aren't like, point number 3 was what? So I realized I wasn't a good friend, and in my loneliness was a result of my brokenness. And so I had to start mending that. I found more and more successful people that I looked up to were more broken than I was relationally, and so preaching a good sermon is not the same as being in healthy relationships.
So what I look for now is I look for good people that I enjoy being around. You know, so many of you, you're looking at social media. Oh, I wish I was at that party. I I wish I was there. I just wanna be around good people that I enjoy, And, life is hard enough.
You don't need friends that make it harder. And so, I don't want friends that compete with me. I don't want friends that are jealous of me. I want friends that just that just love me and and care for me. And and what I do is weird, but maybe what you do is weird.
I don't know what you do. So it's just weird. And and and listen to me, especially young people, the older you get and the more successful you become, the harder it is to get people to be normal around you. But I think that was hard for us to realize that people are one way around us and a completely different person around others, and that's that's kinda sad. So so I surround myself with good people.
Next, I I I find friends that I trust. Find people that are loyal to you. I think that's really, really important. You should pursue friendships just like you pursued your your husband or your wife. It's not easy.
And and people that you minister to or work with are not necessarily your friends. Like, people that work with you get paid to be around you, and people that you minister to like, you're caring for those. They're not your peers. And so you have to have people that you know, iron sharpens iron. People that are with you, find those people.
And then I find I I just this is me. I love to be around people that inspire me to be better. Mhmm. I don't like being around or enjoy being around people that wanna tank their life. That's why I'm I'm I'm really opposed to almost all drugs, Drunkenness, you know, yeah.
I don't know why I said almost all drugs. All all drugs. I mean,
Tammy Brown: you're not against, like, Advil so I guess it works.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: I do take Advil.
Tammy Brown: Yeah. You might be on dayquil now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: So Yeah. I might be on dayquil today. But, but I I I don't know about you guys, but I like to be with people that inspire me in every category. Couples that inspire me to to love you more, you know, kids that inspire me, you know, to to wanna be a better dad. I just I
Tammy Brown: love season at grandpa?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. Grandpa, we would love to be grandparents. No pressure at all, but a little.
Tammy Brown: But do you see our girls as
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. Yeah. So he just threw me off.
Tammy Brown: That's how that's how much we're ready to be grandparents. That's all we think about right now.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: And then next, I think this is key, especially the more successful you become. And you gotta you gotta listen to me on this. You have to have leaders that will challenge you if they think you're wrong. And one of the things I've learned like, Dan Zimbardi is one of the greatest leaders ever, and we had so I I I had this program on my computer that if I looked at something that was, like, you know, you're gonna you're gonna die. So, like, if it if it was nudity nudity at all, it would email Dan, our executive pastor, and tell him that I was looking at that.
So I go in his office. He's being all weird, and I'm like, just say it. What what is going on? And he's like, well, there's some things on your computer this week that I I'm just embarrassed to talk to you about. And I'm like, what?
So I go and look at my computer. She was on my computer shopping for stuff. And I'm like, you you look for women's stuff on your computer, not on my computer. But what I but what I realized was you know, Dan is one of the strongest people I know. It was so hard for him because I'm his boss.
You know? And, you know, I'm not in trouble. You're in trouble. You know? And I could fired him or something like that.
So you you have to just surround your people that love you enough to say, hey. Mhmm. I didn't I didn't like that or I I know that, you know, I know that you don't mean that about Tammy. I know that, you know, I I didn't like the way you interacted with your kids. There there are some senior pastors, in America that, man, I can call and I can just vent and blow.
And, one of my favorite pastors, Chip Henderson, it's one of the largest churches in America. He's from Mississippi. Now, Matt. Now, Matt. You don't you don't wanna be that way.
Tammy Brown: Thank you, Chip.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Chip, if you're watching, I I know your accent isn't that bad. But, but you know what? I I love him and you just who's that person that you can call when you're ready to jump off the cliff or push somebody off a cliff?
Tammy Brown: Your next goal initially surprised me because I just know you to be such a driven person, so goal oriented. You're 3 on the Enneagram. Success is the pinnacle. So it really caught me at first to see this as your 4th goal.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Right.
Tammy Brown: Can you talk about the goal of success and how it's been key to
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: Being where we are 25 years later?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: So I would say when I was my most most unhealthy I was the unhealthiest in my life, this would have been number 1, and I was miserable. And so many young people I see today, their number one goal is to be famous and be a to be an influencer. And I would just say for what and why. Mhmm. What do you wanna be famous for?
And and and so many young people don't care. They just want views. So they'll compromise their faith, their integrity, their life. And, I just think this is such a if this is your number one, I'd really challenge you to pray about it. I don't wanna be in my 3rd marriage, my 4th marriage.
That's not what I want. What I want is to build a life for God with Tammy. So what that means is my professional goals cannot be 1, 2, or 3 because people that are like that are deeply broken people. Most of the successful people in our lives that change our lives for the better have terrible lives at home. So and and and for all of you who are wanting to raise, you know, rise on your platform, rise in influence, just know there's a cost.
And you have to ask yourself, I'm I'm willing to pay this. You want the platform, but do do you wanna take the punishment? And what I would say is you only wanna go as high as God's called you because that's all that you can take. And if you think you're called to more than you are, you're gonna be miserable because you you're never gonna live up to what you think you could do. So so for me, professional goals is number 4, and so and this is just point blank.
And you may not like this, agree with it. I I don't care. I don't care what you think.
Tammy Brown: Tell us how you really feel.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: I wanna I wanna build a great church numerically, and I can't stand people that say you're all about numbers. God has a book in the bible called numbers. I know. You haven't read your bible. It's in there.
Numbers. Right? God cares about numbers. People matter. And and and so many of you, you know, you're so discouraged politically, it's because you need to start counting in the church numerically.
We need big churches, vibrant churches, healthy churches, growing churches, churches that are taking ground, changing souls, changing lives, and I'm not gonna apologize for that. Like people, well, how big do you want your church to be? Well, until there's no more lost people, that's how big. Amen. So that's just me.
So, so I wanna build a great church numerically. I wanna build a great team internally. So one of the things that makes Sandals unique is our team. We have an incredible, incredible team, and I can trust them to make decisions. Oftentimes, like last night when we were we were, leaving our our dinner date together, I'm just on the phone checking in with our executive team, listening to the decisions they made.
If you wanna be great in life, you cannot be a solo star. You know? Just ask LeBron James. Lakers suck. K?
Tammy Brown: Sorry, Alfredo.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. They do. Alfredo knows. Everyone knows. You know?
Because you you have to have a good team, and you have to be able to empower others and and share share not just the responsibility, but share the glory. And so sandals is a culmination of a great team.
Tammy Brown: Absolutely.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: We have strong leaders, powerful leaders. And, man, if you wanna be successful in life, you better have a great team. And so, I mean, Jesus, you know, picked 12, got 11 of them right. Amen. You know?
He he had a miss with Judas. And I've had my fair share of Judases. So just just build a great team. Next, I wanna have a healthy church family. We don't wanna build a great church on the backs of broken marriages.
One of the things I'm most proud of, over the years of Sandals Church is how little of our our our ministry couples have divorced. I so I don't even know. I'm going to say 100 of people have worked in ministry for us for 25 years. Handful of divorces. Handful.
Okay? And and those did not happen while they were here in most cases because we pour into them. We we we care for them. Just last night, I was on the phone with with with a staff member who's struggling in his marriage. And I just said, just know I love you, and I love your wife and I'm praying for you.
Because as soon as I hear there's marital problems, the marriage becomes number 1. The ministry they do is secondary every single time. And so I I want to have a healthy church family. And so one of the things that people notice when they interview here is and they say this people like each other here. I'm like, why would you why would you wanna work somewhere where people don't like each other?
And these are we're interviewing church people. That's what's scary. You know? So so we like each other, and we enjoy hanging out. We enjoy each other.
And and and that's just, you know, one of the the beautiful things about Sandals Church. And people who don't aren't enjoyable don't last very long here. So because we have a great culture. We have a healthy culture. We actually care about each other.
It's one of the things I'm most proud of. And then next, and this is huge, I want to lead people who wanna be led. Like, I know. Some of you are like, what does that mean? Pray about it.
So, you cannot lead someone that does not wanna be led. Life is too precious. You know, Jesus said, do not cast pearls before swine, lest they trample you. And so many of you guys, the reason you're not having impact in your life that you want is you're talking to the people who don't wanna listen. Who are the people in your life that wanna listen, who are desperate for God, who are ready to change?
Pour into them. Pour into them. Because there are people who are lonely and hurting and have questions. There there are married couples that want to change, want to heal, want to grow. There are teenagers who desperately want God.
Focus on them. Focus on them. One of the things that Jesus did that I think Christians struggle with is he let people go. He let people walk away. He didn't chase them.
He said, what about the prodigal son? The prodigal son came back. The prodigal son came back. So
Tammy Brown: I think that's one of the things that you and I in hindsight wish we had been better at. Is letting people walk away.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Oh, so dumb.
Tammy Brown: And now we know. If you don't know what you don't know. Yeah. Matt, one of the things that I think surprises people who don't know you super well
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Right.
Tammy Brown: Is just how much you love learning. Yeah. The people closest to you know that you know a lot of random things.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Oh,
Tammy Brown: yeah. You study constantly. You're constantly learning. It's one of the things that I actually admire about you so much as my best friend. You care so much about learning.
Can you talk to why intellectual goals is such an important goal for you?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. I mean, I think when when you truly surrender to Christ, the first thing you realize is you don't know much. And, guys, you have a limited time. And so use your brains. Keep growing.
Keep learning. I I think it's so important. And and and so much of the conflict we have in our culture today is because kids don't know anything, and it's not because they don't care. It's because we haven't taught them anything. And so, I'm fascinated by language, culture, philosophy, science.
I'm fascinated by all of these things. It's part of loving God with your mind. And and I I just want you to know, just be aware of what you don't know and be curious. I I want to grow my mind. And and here's the thing that I I learned probably about 20 years ago is I can't control how smart I am, but I can control what I try to learn.
Mhmm. And so, we all have limits on what we can learn, and and some things are harder for us than others. But be curious and, and just and just keep growing. One of the things that breaks my heart is when people think Christians are stupid. You know, well, God said it.
That settles it. Well, okay. Not for most people. So so try to grow, try to learn, and and just keep expanding your mind. God's not done with your mind till you're dead.
Keep growing.
Tammy Brown: This next one has been a sore subject in our marriage because sometimes I feel like it's a little too important to you, which is your physical fitness routine, dedication
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Right.
Tammy Brown: Devotion, obsession.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Addiction. Yeah.
Tammy Brown: Can you speak to, however, I do appreciate Yeah. These times. Yeah. Can you speak to the importance of having physical goals?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. Yeah. So I learned in my mid thirties. And and some of you who are young, you're like, what's he talking about? It's coming.
I only feel as good as my body is fit. So I learned in my thirties there's a connection between my anxiety, depression, and physical fitness. Physical fitness was something I just took for granted early on. And so here's what I would say. No matter how old you are, the more stress you have in life, the harder you need to work out.
So if your job is stressful, you don't need to go home, sit on the couch, pound a pint of ice cream. You you need to pound out that aggression in the gym, walking, getting outside. And so there there's a connection between your body, your physical health, and your spiritual life. If you don't feel well physically, you're not gonna feel God spiritually. So try try to exercise and stay in shape.
I'm not saying you have to be, you know, an addict like I am.
Tammy Brown: Because the goal isn't just for what you look like. It's how you feel, how you think.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. Absolutely. And and, I mean, that changes. I mean, the harder I work out now, it just doesn't even make a difference. Everything's falling apart.
But here's the thing is, I do what I have to do so that I can enjoy what I like to do. So if you're making noises when you're getting up and getting down, cheer.
Tammy Brown: That's We're starting
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: to do this. Gym. That's the gym calling you. So
Tammy Brown: I think this last goal is so interesting because it's one of the things when we were dating and you said, I'm going into ministry and you need to know what that means for us financially. We are never going to be, well off. We're never going to be rich. We're probably gonna be really poor, and you need to go into this knowing that. And yet, God has been so good to us through your you being so diligent in having financial goals.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah.
Tammy Brown: So can you speak to the value of financial goals?
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. I think one of the things Christians do naively is say, well, God's in charge. Well, he's put you in charge. So when it comes to your finances, you need to honor God with your finances, and that means get your financial life in order. And so here's here's my financial goal.
I want to make enough money for myself and my family so that I can be generous to my church, I can be generous to my family, and I can be generous to people. I don't care about being uber rich. I know some uber rich people and their lives are not what I want, because remember, you know, professional, that's their number one and that that doesn't end well. But you do need money to survive. You just do.
And for those of you who don't understand that, we have to work to support you. So I need you to wake up to the fact that you need to do something with your life. But so much misery in Christian's lives is because of financial insanity. You're like, god bless us. He's like, think about it.
You know? So so make sure that you are just saying, god, I wanna cultivate a wise financial, you know, portfolio. I wanna I wanna be smart with my money, and nobody knows what what the future's gonna be. Nobody knows what's gonna happen in 2023, but you can be smart with the money you have. And so quit asking God to bless you with money you don't have and start asking God to give you the wisdom to be a blessing with the money you do have.
And that's the key.
Tammy Brown: That's so good. Before you close in prayer, I just wanna take a moment to thank you, Sandals Church. Thank you for your kindness and love to me, Matt, and our family. Thank you for your patience and grace as we've grown up alongside of you. I was 23 when we started this church.
I had a lot of growing up and maturing to do. Thank you to those who are here in those early days when we were figuring it out. Thank you to those of you who were there then and are still now so special to us. And thank you to those of you who are on this leg of the journey with us. It is our life joy to follow Jesus together with you guys.
Pastor Matthew Stephen Brown: Yeah. Amen. I just wanna say thank you guys. I love you. We were kids when we started, and, we're not kids now.
But let me just encourage you. This isn't about our this isn't about me and Tammy's story. This is about our story. And we're all a part of this, and we need to be together more now than ever. The world is not for the church.
The world is against the church. Satan is trying to tear down this church every single day. We need to be diligent to protect this beautiful blessing that we've been given. Sandals is a blessing. Some of you don't believe in miracles, you're in a miracle right now.
Sandals Church is a miracle. And, Tammy and I just wanna say thank you so much. And so would you just bow your heads and close your eyes? I wanna pray for the next 25 years. Heavenly father, thank you for 25 years.
Lord, give us I pray that in the next 25 years, god, you just blow our minds. God, we pray for us as a church. Protect us as a church. And, God, we pray that you would be working in the hearts of the next pastor of this church. God, I pray that you would be putting people around him, to grow him up, to direct him, and to lead him, to take over this beautiful thing that you've grown, this miracle called Sandals Church.
God, I pray that every person would be convicted today to know that they're an essential part of what we do, to start serving, and to be a part and just to watch what you're gonna do in the next 25 years. So thank you, Lord Jesus. We love you, and thank you. In Jesus' name we pray. Amen.
Morgan Teruel: Thanks for listening to the Sandals Church podcast. Our vision here is to be real with ourselves, God, and others. At Sandals Church, we wanna see a movement of authenticity take place all over the world, and donating to the work of Sandals Church helps make that happen. If you wanna support this movement here at Sandals Church, I wanna invite you to visit donate.sc. Thanks again for listening, and God bless.