WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.253 --> 00:00:02.293 Mike Bifulco: Hello and welcome back to APIs you won't hate. 00:00:02.293 --> 00:00:03.463 My name is Mike Biko. 00:00:03.463 --> 00:00:05.863 I'm one of your APIs you won't hate co-hosts. 00:00:06.083 --> 00:00:10.713 I'm lucky to be hanging out today with my API's co-founder Phil, Phil Sturgeon. 00:00:10.713 --> 00:00:11.493 How are you doing today? 00:00:12.193 --> 00:00:12.763 Phil: Hello. 00:00:12.763 --> 00:00:14.383 I am doing all right. 00:00:14.383 --> 00:00:15.919 I'm in wet North Wales. 00:00:16.159 --> 00:00:18.079 Hiding out, hiding out from the weather. 00:00:18.289 --> 00:00:18.589 We got a 00:00:18.589 --> 00:00:19.384 big old storm coming. 00:00:20.469 --> 00:00:20.709 Mike Bifulco: Yeah. 00:00:20.709 --> 00:00:22.089 Gosh, it must be the depths of winter there. 00:00:22.089 --> 00:00:24.439 I'm sure it's plenty, plenty chilly for you right now, huh? 00:00:24.555 --> 00:00:25.185 Phil: Yeah, absolutely. 00:00:25.312 --> 00:00:26.392 Mike Bifulco: I'm glad to have you here. 00:00:26.392 --> 00:00:29.422 I'm glad to be able to sit down and talk and you and I actually today are 00:00:29.422 --> 00:00:30.832 gonna be speaking with a, a guest. 00:00:30.832 --> 00:00:32.932 We have Rich Steinmetz on the call today. 00:00:32.932 --> 00:00:34.092 Rich how are you doing? 00:00:34.362 --> 00:00:35.857 Rich: Yeah, hey, all good. 00:00:35.857 --> 00:00:36.897 From my side as well. 00:00:36.997 --> 00:00:39.252 I'm here in sunny Barcelona. 00:00:39.252 --> 00:00:42.192 It's been constantly sunny as always. 00:00:42.412 --> 00:00:42.742 Phil: it in. 00:00:43.864 --> 00:00:45.094 Mike Bifulco: my jealousy is infinite. 00:00:45.344 --> 00:00:48.854 Rich, you have been a community member for, with APIs you hate 00:00:48.854 --> 00:00:50.804 for, for as long as I can remember. 00:00:50.804 --> 00:00:50.984 And. 00:00:51.074 --> 00:00:53.684 And it feels like your name and your your voice have appeared 00:00:53.684 --> 00:00:55.294 quite a bit in our world. 00:00:55.394 --> 00:00:58.664 But I, I feel like I also wouldn't quite do justice to explain just 00:00:58.664 --> 00:01:00.044 to everything that you work on 00:01:00.094 --> 00:01:02.254 can you give a little background on yourself and kind of the things 00:01:02.254 --> 00:01:04.114 that you do in, in and out of APIs? 00:01:05.229 --> 00:01:06.219 Rich: Yeah, for sure. 00:01:06.319 --> 00:01:08.839 First of all, thanks a lot for having me on. 00:01:08.839 --> 00:01:08.869 I. 00:01:09.694 --> 00:01:15.634 I'm a listener of the podcast since probably four or five years, so it's 00:01:15.844 --> 00:01:21.214 basically one of the places that got me into the whole API thing. 00:01:21.214 --> 00:01:26.884 So it's, it always surprises me how it is when you listen to some, 00:01:26.914 --> 00:01:30.034 to a podcast or watch a show and then all of a sudden you are there. 00:01:31.234 --> 00:01:32.134 So thanks 00:01:32.179 --> 00:01:34.129 Mike Bifulco: think that officially makes you an OG too. 00:01:34.129 --> 00:01:36.019 If you've been around for four or five years, , you've been 00:01:36.019 --> 00:01:37.254 with us since, pretty early on. 00:01:37.499 --> 00:01:40.199 Rich: Yeah, I think, I think it is pretty much from the start. 00:01:40.259 --> 00:01:40.559 Phil: Nice. 00:01:40.679 --> 00:01:44.099 Just be, just be ready for how weird it gets when you kind of, you know, you, 00:01:44.099 --> 00:01:47.609 you, you do this recording, you pop off, you forget about it, and then however 00:01:47.609 --> 00:01:49.799 long it takes us to actually get this one out, you'll be minding your own 00:01:49.799 --> 00:01:52.349 business one day and you'll hear your voice coming in through your headphones. 00:01:52.349 --> 00:01:54.479 You're like, I was just trying to listen to the podcast and it's me. 00:01:54.479 --> 00:01:54.929 Ah. 00:01:55.109 --> 00:01:55.619 So just skip 00:01:55.669 --> 00:01:57.169 Rich: yeah, yeah. 00:01:57.169 --> 00:02:01.492 That, that's a, that's a scary one for sure, but I'm looking forward to that. 00:02:01.592 --> 00:02:05.402 I, I'm not from a engineering background. 00:02:05.972 --> 00:02:12.722 I did get into engineering about like nine to 10 years ago, and I, 00:02:12.722 --> 00:02:14.282 obviously, I didn't know what I'm doing. 00:02:14.282 --> 00:02:18.092 I tried a bunch of different things, worked and different. 00:02:18.467 --> 00:02:21.527 Software teams from the beginning as well and different 00:02:21.527 --> 00:02:23.937 technologies from cake to cake. 00:02:23.937 --> 00:02:25.527 PHP, like from PHP 00:02:25.737 --> 00:02:26.187 Mike Bifulco: Oh yeah. 00:02:26.797 --> 00:02:28.327 Rich: Java to Python. 00:02:28.327 --> 00:02:35.797 And one day I had a contract in the Ruby Real space. 00:02:36.037 --> 00:02:41.167 And there, there I thought, yeah, that's a cool technology. 00:02:41.167 --> 00:02:42.667 That's a cool community. 00:02:42.667 --> 00:02:45.007 I want to stay here and. 00:02:46.537 --> 00:02:48.367 I was always a backend guy. 00:02:48.367 --> 00:02:53.977 So although I've built full stack from like infrastructure to front 00:02:53.977 --> 00:03:00.727 end, I still in in the years before I touched and created APIs 00:03:00.727 --> 00:03:03.187 a lot for one reason or another. 00:03:03.577 --> 00:03:04.177 But then. 00:03:05.527 --> 00:03:11.707 With this contract, this Rails contract, five years ago I, for 00:03:11.707 --> 00:03:15.337 the first time I worked in a team that they had an interesting setup. 00:03:15.337 --> 00:03:15.787 Actually. 00:03:15.877 --> 00:03:22.177 They had like a, on the front end, they had a Rails app, and on the backend 00:03:22.207 --> 00:03:28.697 they had a, it's called Grape, API it's like a framework in Ruby to create APIs. 00:03:29.327 --> 00:03:32.507 And it was the first contract where I realized that. 00:03:32.882 --> 00:03:39.032 APIs are like a discipline, like it's something you can get into and be like, 00:03:39.632 --> 00:03:42.662 get good at and can learn more about. 00:03:42.722 --> 00:03:48.922 And there I learned things like designing an API and they 00:03:48.922 --> 00:03:51.022 have like a swagger UI too. 00:03:52.012 --> 00:03:54.652 For the front end app to communicate with the backhand. 00:03:54.652 --> 00:04:01.682 So and this is where I match you guys in the, on the podcast with my ears at least. 00:04:02.522 --> 00:04:07.782 And this is where I started to get deeper into APIs and like read books about it. 00:04:07.912 --> 00:04:12.082 And yeah, follow the different shows and understanding like the business 00:04:12.082 --> 00:04:15.802 aspect of it, the technical aspect of it, the design aspect of it. 00:04:16.352 --> 00:04:24.512 And yeah, five years forward, I'm now, I, I had only rails Ruby 00:04:24.512 --> 00:04:28.632 Rails and API contracts ever since. 00:04:29.442 --> 00:04:40.872 And I'm now helping to build the business operating system, API for ClickFunnels. 00:04:41.372 --> 00:04:43.682 It's a company who basically. 00:04:44.342 --> 00:04:49.022 Provides the software for entrepreneurs, for solopreneurs, bootstrappers, 00:04:49.022 --> 00:04:53.682 but nowadays also for all kinds of companies to run their business 00:04:53.682 --> 00:04:59.862 on and basically have everything related to marketing and shops and 00:04:59.912 --> 00:05:01.852 customer management running inside. 00:05:03.545 --> 00:05:03.965 Mike Bifulco: Thank you. 00:05:03.965 --> 00:05:05.045 That's super helpful. 00:05:05.105 --> 00:05:09.249 I , am the first to say that I understand marketing technology at 00:05:09.249 --> 00:05:11.289 like, let's call it a 100 level. 00:05:11.289 --> 00:05:16.389 I'm not super versed in marketing stuff but I'm also a victim of it fairly 00:05:16.389 --> 00:05:20.579 often, meaning I get to be an end user of it as a developer for my team at. 00:05:22.434 --> 00:05:22.724 Rich: Yeah. 00:05:22.964 --> 00:05:25.424 Mike Bifulco: something that I find really fascinating there is for, for the 00:05:25.424 --> 00:05:30.321 uninitiated, there is an incredible amount of technology that goes into making sure 00:05:30.321 --> 00:05:35.451 that money spent on ads, for example, is being spent well and being used to target 00:05:35.451 --> 00:05:39.321 fundamentally better audiences each day or week or cycle, however that works. 00:05:39.511 --> 00:05:42.061 But then there's a lot of information that goes into tracking 00:05:42.061 --> 00:05:43.891 people's journey through a site. 00:05:43.891 --> 00:05:47.216 So how does someone reach your your website and then get from. 00:05:47.516 --> 00:05:51.086 Wherever they got to you to spending money presumably, or creating an 00:05:51.086 --> 00:05:52.466 account or whatever the goal is. 00:05:52.776 --> 00:05:55.806 And I think on some level that's kind of what ClickFunnels 00:05:55.806 --> 00:05:58.056 does, is that vaguely right. 00:05:58.846 --> 00:06:02.896 Rich: Yes, we do have a good analytics. 00:06:02.956 --> 00:06:08.456 Analytics like module where you can follow your customer's 00:06:08.456 --> 00:06:10.016 journey through your funnels. 00:06:10.016 --> 00:06:16.556 Like the meat of the software is, it's in the name, it's the funnels. 00:06:16.556 --> 00:06:21.896 It's like a page builder for you to create your offer. 00:06:22.406 --> 00:06:26.906 Or Well, you create your offer in your mind, in the background on 00:06:26.906 --> 00:06:29.106 paper on the, on the whiteboard. 00:06:29.106 --> 00:06:32.526 And then you make it visible for others in, in software. 00:06:32.826 --> 00:06:35.896 And it's basically there is a page pillar for that. 00:06:37.006 --> 00:06:40.846 And then you can have a bunch of different automations, for example. 00:06:41.306 --> 00:06:46.766 I think for craftwork you have, you have or will have a subscription, right? 00:06:46.766 --> 00:06:48.026 Mike is, 00:06:48.506 --> 00:06:50.066 or is it one time payments. 00:06:50.141 --> 00:06:51.161 Mike Bifulco: yeah, it's one time payment. 00:06:51.161 --> 00:06:52.891 So we're a B2C company. 00:06:52.891 --> 00:06:54.796 We, we do home painting, so we're not a SaaS at all. 00:06:55.106 --> 00:06:55.396 Yeah. 00:06:55.426 --> 00:06:55.726 Rich: Yeah. 00:06:55.731 --> 00:06:56.656 I, I remember, yeah. 00:06:56.656 --> 00:06:56.746 You 00:06:56.746 --> 00:07:00.976 do home paintings and then now imagine you have your offer there. 00:07:01.006 --> 00:07:03.486 Hey, I have these amazing paintings in here. 00:07:03.486 --> 00:07:05.736 And then someone buys your offer. 00:07:06.396 --> 00:07:10.636 Let's say you have like a fixed price on it for this particular funnel, and 00:07:10.636 --> 00:07:15.236 then they're redirected to another page where you can provide them 00:07:15.236 --> 00:07:16.916 with more services that they need. 00:07:17.681 --> 00:07:21.971 Maybe, I don't know if they really need it, if you do like everything, 00:07:21.971 --> 00:07:27.461 but theoretically you could sell 'em the the tools to do the painting. 00:07:27.461 --> 00:07:29.411 Well, you'll be doing it of course, as a 00:07:29.606 --> 00:07:30.056 Mike Bifulco: Sure. 00:07:30.146 --> 00:07:30.536 Yeah, 00:07:30.761 --> 00:07:31.751 Rich: just as an example. 00:07:31.886 --> 00:07:32.696 Mike Bifulco: yeah, of course. 00:07:33.626 --> 00:07:39.056 And so ClickFunnel helps, helps you to understand that process and, and hopefully 00:07:39.056 --> 00:07:40.286 send people in the right direction. 00:07:40.631 --> 00:07:41.321 Rich: Exactly. 00:07:41.321 --> 00:07:45.391 And then you can have all kinds of automations around that. 00:07:45.451 --> 00:07:50.551 And of course going back to analytics, it's an important part to understand 00:07:50.551 --> 00:07:55.501 like where in your funnel and your funnel can consist of couple of steps 00:07:55.501 --> 00:08:00.101 can be very simple, but it can be also very complex with like split 00:08:00.101 --> 00:08:03.041 testing and all kinds of things. 00:08:04.991 --> 00:08:06.761 Mike Bifulco: And imagine when it comes down to it. 00:08:06.761 --> 00:08:10.481 So I'm viewing, I'm sitting on ClickFunnel's homepage right now, and 00:08:10.481 --> 00:08:13.301 there is a massive grid of features here. 00:08:13.301 --> 00:08:16.151 Many, many different things that ClickFunnel seems to build and 00:08:16.221 --> 00:08:17.991 make available to customers. 00:08:18.331 --> 00:08:21.151 All of these things probably have to talk to each other on some level. 00:08:21.151 --> 00:08:22.621 Is that where your work comes in? 00:08:23.191 --> 00:08:23.941 Rich: yeah, exactly. 00:08:23.941 --> 00:08:26.556 Like we have all these features and. 00:08:27.056 --> 00:08:28.766 It is actually a funny story. 00:08:29.196 --> 00:08:36.926 This software exists for 10 years now more or less, and they began 00:08:37.706 --> 00:08:45.476 mostly just being a funnel builder, like page builder, website builder. 00:08:46.286 --> 00:08:50.476 And at some point five years or so, for like five years 00:08:50.476 --> 00:08:52.936 ago, they decided to do like. 00:08:53.436 --> 00:08:54.756 A ClickFunnels 2.0, 00:08:54.786 --> 00:09:04.026 like a second version, and one of their like huge factors was the 00:09:04.026 --> 00:09:12.306 technical aspect of how their app was built in terms of API ecosystem. 00:09:12.456 --> 00:09:16.786 Like everything around when I say API ecosystem, I'm 00:09:16.786 --> 00:09:18.586 thinking about like webhooks. 00:09:19.096 --> 00:09:25.886 The public, API, of course like the platform ability of your app, like 00:09:25.976 --> 00:09:28.346 other apps connecting to your app. 00:09:28.522 --> 00:09:32.212 that was a huge factor because the, the infrastructure or the, 00:09:32.212 --> 00:09:35.992 the technical architecture there in the, in the first version wasn't. 00:09:36.036 --> 00:09:38.616 set up in a way that, that was easy. 00:09:38.616 --> 00:09:40.686 They had like the old version of the API. 00:09:40.686 --> 00:09:47.226 So basically to provide a much better experience for their users, give them even 00:09:47.226 --> 00:09:52.786 more power in terms of automations that they get with the web hooks and public 00:09:52.786 --> 00:09:56.566 API, and to also enable partnerships. 00:09:57.116 --> 00:10:01.686 They have like this big factor, Hey, let's, let's build an. 00:10:02.796 --> 00:10:04.736 Ap ClickFunnels 2.0 00:10:05.246 --> 00:10:08.486 and let's make the API ecosystem. 00:10:08.516 --> 00:10:09.176 Awesome. 00:10:09.266 --> 00:10:13.826 Like the, there was a, a lot of thought going in from the beginning 00:10:14.156 --> 00:10:19.226 into how to build, build it and make it in a way that it's like a platform. 00:10:19.706 --> 00:10:26.796 And it really shows fruit fruits now because, you were at their main 00:10:26.796 --> 00:10:29.316 page probably@likeclickfunnels.com. 00:10:29.826 --> 00:10:33.546 If you would look for like developers.my 00:10:33.546 --> 00:10:35.406 clickfunnels.com, 00:10:35.736 --> 00:10:38.586 you would see the Our Developer hub. 00:10:38.586 --> 00:10:43.206 And there you can see the different resources that we kinda, 00:10:43.356 --> 00:10:46.686 that relate to the features, of course on clickfunnels.com. 00:10:47.616 --> 00:10:49.026 But then also. 00:10:50.106 --> 00:10:56.076 That are used by, by our partners or by our, like, power users 00:10:56.076 --> 00:11:02.686 and just also developers or entrepreneurs who are very techy. 00:11:03.542 --> 00:11:05.672 Mike Bifulco: I feel like I've gone further and further down the rabbit 00:11:05.672 --> 00:11:07.802 hole here, and I'm finding more as I go. 00:11:08.232 --> 00:11:09.222 It's a big product. 00:11:09.287 --> 00:11:10.547 Phil: why I've been quiet for a while. 00:11:10.547 --> 00:11:12.737 'cause I've just been clicking around the website going, oh man, this 00:11:12.737 --> 00:11:13.697 is gonna solve a lot of problems. 00:11:14.132 --> 00:11:16.442 Whenever I look at a product at the moment, I'm kind of thinking how 00:11:16.442 --> 00:11:17.672 it would work for Protect Earth. 00:11:17.732 --> 00:11:18.152 And I 00:11:18.152 --> 00:11:18.662 think one of the 00:11:18.662 --> 00:11:19.172 problems we've 00:11:19.172 --> 00:11:20.282 got is, 00:11:20.332 --> 00:11:23.452 Yeah, we're like a tiny little startup growing rapidly as a 00:11:23.452 --> 00:11:24.892 kind of reforestation charity. 00:11:25.202 --> 00:11:27.902 And there's so many different bits of software and we've got like a 00:11:27.902 --> 00:11:33.092 website on Squarespace and the you can sponsor Trees on via the Shopify 00:11:33.092 --> 00:11:36.392 store, which kind of we have to manually make, try and look a bit similar. 00:11:36.677 --> 00:11:41.447 And you can schedule appointments and CRM stuff with HubSpot and you 00:11:41.447 --> 00:11:44.737 could, you know, there's all we've got MailChimp for doing email marketing, 00:11:44.737 --> 00:11:47.017 but we've also got SendGrid for kind of 00:11:47.017 --> 00:11:47.797 programmatically, 00:11:47.797 --> 00:11:49.837 sending emails and there's a hundred different things in here 00:11:49.837 --> 00:11:50.947 and it looks like you guys do 00:11:50.947 --> 00:11:51.457 basically. 00:11:51.457 --> 00:11:51.967 all of it. 00:11:52.267 --> 00:11:53.677 So that's, that's pretty interesting. 00:11:53.832 --> 00:11:54.122 Rich: Yeah. 00:11:54.262 --> 00:11:57.507 So this is exactly the vision to have. 00:11:57.867 --> 00:12:03.627 Like the business operating system, like to have everything in one place working 00:12:03.627 --> 00:12:10.407 together and in an automated way so you don't have to switch between the tools. 00:12:10.407 --> 00:12:14.127 You don't have to connect them because probably if you have those 00:12:14.127 --> 00:12:19.137 different tools fill, you probably also go from time to time and use 00:12:19.137 --> 00:12:20.907 something like Zapier maybe to, 00:12:21.487 --> 00:12:23.227 Phil: Yeah, and a 00:12:23.227 --> 00:12:25.597 bunch of them charge, charge extra for the integration. 00:12:25.597 --> 00:12:27.817 I think like donor box, our donation platform. 00:12:27.817 --> 00:12:29.167 I've been looking to replace that for a while. 00:12:29.167 --> 00:12:34.597 'cause Stripe already taken whatever reduced charity rate fee they take. 00:12:34.597 --> 00:12:37.627 But then donor box take another percentage of that and sometimes someone 00:12:37.627 --> 00:12:41.137 wants to bang in a thousand pounds and we lose like 50 or 60 or something. 00:12:41.587 --> 00:12:45.337 And tracking analytics is, is a massive pain in the backside. 00:12:45.337 --> 00:12:50.067 Fathom, who are amazing sponsors of the charity have given us like a 00:12:50.067 --> 00:12:54.957 free analytics thing but it's pretty basic because we've not managed 00:12:54.957 --> 00:12:58.947 to integrate all of the correct tracking links between Squarespace. 00:12:59.007 --> 00:13:02.547 going to donor box and and joining it all up with that. 00:13:02.787 --> 00:13:09.567 So yeah, I think the integrations when free require a little bit of work to make. 00:13:10.167 --> 00:13:13.587 Work properly and sometimes aren't free. 00:13:13.977 --> 00:13:16.707 so it's expensive and more work. 00:13:16.707 --> 00:13:19.862 So yeah, it's interesting to see someone trying to tackle all of 00:13:19.862 --> 00:13:21.502 this at once, which cannot be easy. 00:13:22.272 --> 00:13:23.322 Rich: Yeah, definitely. 00:13:23.372 --> 00:13:28.682 a lot of the features are also quite new and there is a lot in the pipeline 00:13:28.682 --> 00:13:35.517 as well, but we are now at a point that we zoom into making them awesome. 00:13:35.930 --> 00:13:38.450 on the UI side or on the API side. 00:13:38.450 --> 00:13:39.590 So, yeah. 00:13:40.140 --> 00:13:44.460 In terms of features, I, I don't think it will not grow like horizontally 00:13:44.460 --> 00:13:46.530 anymore a lot I think from what 00:13:46.795 --> 00:13:47.125 Phil: Right. 00:13:47.800 --> 00:13:48.550 Rich: From what I see. 00:13:48.550 --> 00:13:53.740 But we will just like double down on what we have now in the, in the coming time. 00:13:54.305 --> 00:13:54.635 Phil: Yeah. 00:13:54.635 --> 00:13:55.715 How, how is it? 00:13:56.420 --> 00:13:57.950 What, what form does it take? 00:13:57.950 --> 00:13:59.630 Like is it basically a, a, a 00:13:59.630 --> 00:14:00.590 Big old cms 00:14:00.590 --> 00:14:03.320 with lots of modules or is it something that is a 00:14:03.320 --> 00:14:05.480 kind of a toolkit that you are meant to plug into. 00:14:05.480 --> 00:14:06.740 some sort of site yourself? 00:14:07.240 --> 00:14:12.455 Rich: It's, it is just a UI with you, you start out basically when you do the 00:14:12.455 --> 00:14:18.325 free trial, for example, you start out and with a screen and a couple of apps. 00:14:18.850 --> 00:14:19.960 Predefined for you. 00:14:19.960 --> 00:14:26.630 Like let's say like funnels are native and then you can choose, pick and 00:14:26.630 --> 00:14:29.750 choose what you, what kind of an app. 00:14:30.050 --> 00:14:34.640 It's structured in an appy way and then you go to the app's menu 00:14:34.640 --> 00:14:39.530 and say, Hey, I want like, know to know more about analytics. 00:14:39.530 --> 00:14:43.400 So we pick the app and then it just. 00:14:43.730 --> 00:14:47.660 Part of your dashboard and you can just come back to it 00:14:47.780 --> 00:14:48.410 Phil: Oh, I gotcha. 00:14:48.410 --> 00:14:52.380 And there's like, there's a, a website editor where you are picking a theme, 00:14:52.680 --> 00:14:55.820 and then all of those themes will support all of the built in apps, I'm guessing, 00:14:55.820 --> 00:14:59.060 so you can just kind of add in whichever apps and it will have an interface. 00:14:59.060 --> 00:15:00.650 for that, for that, that 00:15:00.790 --> 00:15:01.680 Rich: Exactly, yeah. 00:15:01.680 --> 00:15:03.870 There's an editor like the whole. 00:15:03.898 --> 00:15:05.788 Funnel thing, it's its own app. 00:15:05.788 --> 00:15:07.978 So there is an editor website. 00:15:08.308 --> 00:15:12.518 You connect a domain, you can connect a domain to it, and then you are 00:15:12.518 --> 00:15:15.488 provided with a domain, like with Click Funnels, domain first, and 00:15:15.488 --> 00:15:17.108 then you can just connect yours 00:15:17.158 --> 00:15:20.008 Phil: Do you have any integration with like random APIs? 00:15:20.008 --> 00:15:25.308 So could I dynamically fetch data into one of these pages from my own 00:15:25.308 --> 00:15:27.498 api, or would that be something else? 00:15:27.998 --> 00:15:30.638 Rich: You mean whether 00:15:30.738 --> 00:15:31.818 Phil: like Right, right now I've 00:15:31.838 --> 00:15:33.128 Rich: data from 00:15:33.558 --> 00:15:34.278 Phil: yeah, exactly. 00:15:34.278 --> 00:15:36.248 I've got I'm just turning this into free consulting now. 00:15:36.248 --> 00:15:36.638 Cheers. 00:15:37.038 --> 00:15:41.328 So for a common problem that I have with CMSs that, that try to 00:15:41.328 --> 00:15:43.998 do quite a lot or any sort of kind of SaaS that does quite a lot? 00:15:43.998 --> 00:15:44.448 Is that. 00:15:44.448 --> 00:15:46.458 the more stuff they do, the better. 00:15:46.458 --> 00:15:48.878 But you always find you know, the end of it somewhere. 00:15:49.118 --> 00:15:50.848 And we've got we've got loads of projects, right? 00:15:50.848 --> 00:15:54.538 Like every site that we create a new woodland at is a, is another project. 00:15:54.918 --> 00:16:00.648 And I've just spent the last week or two hiring a guy to kind of do manual 00:16:00.648 --> 00:16:02.508 data entry into our Squarespace website. 00:16:02.538 --> 00:16:04.908 'cause there's no way to dynamic people in the information. 00:16:05.148 --> 00:16:08.958 And I'm like, man, I really should, I should be doing better than this. 00:16:08.958 --> 00:16:12.558 I should not be hiring someone to manually do data entry on a website when all 00:16:12.558 --> 00:16:14.418 of this data already lives in an API. 00:16:14.718 --> 00:16:16.698 But also we're quite busy planting trees. 00:16:17.028 --> 00:16:18.258 And I think my point is yeah. 00:16:18.258 --> 00:16:21.708 Is there any way to get kind of custom data into it somehow? 00:16:21.953 --> 00:16:25.228 Rich: do you have like an example of what kind of data it would be like? 00:16:25.248 --> 00:16:28.998 Phil: If I've got an API with like name of project description, number of trees 00:16:28.998 --> 00:16:30.408 planted, and here are some photographs. 00:16:30.408 --> 00:16:32.658 Rich: So it is kind of custom data, right? 00:16:32.658 --> 00:16:36.623 It's not something that's part of ClickFunnels already. 00:16:36.863 --> 00:16:37.743 I, I know that like. 00:16:37.743 --> 00:16:41.823 can have , the first thing I I'm thinking about here now is like 00:16:41.823 --> 00:16:46.653 Salesforce, they have these and their APIs are very happy to work with, 00:16:47.283 --> 00:16:50.783 but they have this like maybe also HubSpot if I remember correctly. 00:16:50.783 --> 00:16:55.193 But they have these objects you can create and you can name them whatever 00:16:55.193 --> 00:16:57.503 you want and things like that. 00:16:57.563 --> 00:16:59.063 Is that what, what you would look 00:16:59.478 --> 00:16:59.838 Phil: Yeah. 00:16:59.838 --> 00:17:02.598 I've worked with that sort of integration in the past that's quite clever. 00:17:02.598 --> 00:17:06.078 And I was quite impressed, even though it was cumbersome, like in Salesforce, 00:17:06.078 --> 00:17:08.568 you can define custom objects 00:17:08.568 --> 00:17:11.788 in there that are like represented as o data 00:17:12.028 --> 00:17:16.288 and therefore you can see that lives over here on my API and then it kind 00:17:16.288 --> 00:17:19.918 of does some syncing in the background or whatever because it, because it's 00:17:19.918 --> 00:17:23.278 o data, it knows what structure it is and what types are and everything else. 00:17:23.428 --> 00:17:24.958 Yeah, I suppose that sort of thing. 00:17:25.038 --> 00:17:25.578 Rich: Hmm. 00:17:25.638 --> 00:17:26.838 No, we don't have that. 00:17:26.838 --> 00:17:33.378 We have the, the resources that we provide on, on the API, like, we 00:17:33.528 --> 00:17:38.438 basically hook in to what we offer to, to what we offer in the app. 00:17:38.502 --> 00:17:40.545 And that's basically. 00:17:40.570 --> 00:17:41.050 Phil: I gotcha. 00:17:41.170 --> 00:17:44.470 So I can integrate kind of products and courses and, and all of the 00:17:44.470 --> 00:17:46.180 various different app bits I could use. 00:17:46.240 --> 00:17:48.190 I could use an API to stick some stuff in there. 00:17:48.255 --> 00:17:55.165 Rich: Exactly like context products CRM you can do even fulfillments via the API. 00:17:55.165 --> 00:18:00.580 We have a amazing new feature, which is like creating orders via the API. 00:18:01.108 --> 00:18:01.588 Phil: Oh, brilliant. 00:18:01.768 --> 00:18:02.638 Yeah, that's helpful. 00:18:02.823 --> 00:18:03.903 Rich: Yeah, so 00:18:03.928 --> 00:18:04.348 Phil: Excellent. 00:18:04.348 --> 00:18:07.228 I always like to find the limitations of a thing to help people get context 00:18:07.228 --> 00:18:10.618 of like where it sits, but that's, there's plenty on here, which will 00:18:10.618 --> 00:18:13.348 cover the vast majority of of needs. 00:18:13.468 --> 00:18:15.598 'cause not everyone runs a reforestation charity, 00:18:15.598 --> 00:18:16.498 . Mike Bifulco: So Rich, I. 00:18:16.498 --> 00:18:20.548 happen to stumble across the change log on the developer side of ClickFunnels. 00:18:20.578 --> 00:18:24.078 And I've noticed your name is under most of the change log entries of 00:18:24.078 --> 00:18:25.818 late for the past few months at least. 00:18:26.628 --> 00:18:29.688 One of the things I'm curious about is, especially like, as Phil's 00:18:29.688 --> 00:18:30.978 mentioned, there's so many things. 00:18:30.978 --> 00:18:33.448 You're, you're serving so many different use cases here. 00:18:33.448 --> 00:18:37.798 How is your team identifying what to work on next and how do you balance, 00:18:37.978 --> 00:18:41.108 you know, the change of a feature with all the users who must be 00:18:41.108 --> 00:18:42.398 consuming the things that you've built? 00:18:43.598 --> 00:18:45.038 Rich: Yeah, that's a great question. 00:18:45.088 --> 00:18:52.828 This like our API launched almost two years ago and like end of. 00:18:52.828 --> 00:18:55.918 September, somewhere 2023. 00:18:56.278 --> 00:19:02.578 I launched the second version of the API and since then it has evolved. 00:19:02.668 --> 00:19:10.248 So we went from, Hey, let's give our users what we know they'll be using for sure. 00:19:10.758 --> 00:19:12.798 Let, let's give them like a basis. 00:19:12.798 --> 00:19:17.268 And we basically decided ourselves, like business decided together with 00:19:17.268 --> 00:19:19.748 the engineering team what it will be. 00:19:19.848 --> 00:19:24.348 They have always spoken a lot, a lot to customers. 00:19:24.888 --> 00:19:31.098 And so we were just shipping the, the thing that, that we knew 00:19:31.548 --> 00:19:34.878 that will have broad application. 00:19:34.878 --> 00:19:39.988 And at some point this shifted a little bit in terms of we went 00:19:39.988 --> 00:19:43.358 more into shipping for our partners. 00:19:43.618 --> 00:19:50.258 And as people started using the API more, they were requesting things 00:19:50.258 --> 00:19:52.328 more so we had direct feedback. 00:19:52.828 --> 00:19:54.058 By the different channels. 00:19:54.058 --> 00:20:00.418 We also encourage people to have feedback for us, so they come via support or we 00:20:00.418 --> 00:20:06.748 start early on to foster this discussion, as you said, in the change log. 00:20:07.298 --> 00:20:13.798 Like that, that would be like the passive consumption of what's, what's going on. 00:20:13.873 --> 00:20:13.963 But 00:20:14.713 --> 00:20:20.743 we also early on went into having like a discussion forum so people 00:20:20.773 --> 00:20:25.473 have have a place where they have, can have questions or doubts. 00:20:25.473 --> 00:20:30.933 And then again, our like our API users, they aren't all necessarily 00:20:30.933 --> 00:20:34.963 like the hardcore developers who. 00:20:34.963 --> 00:20:38.653 Are hired to do the thing with Salesforce, for example. 00:20:39.153 --> 00:20:45.453 Our API users are a lot more, I think compared to, for example, Salesforce 00:20:45.453 --> 00:20:50.553 are a lot more just like solopreneurs who who are techie and they want 00:20:50.553 --> 00:20:52.593 to build that thing real quick. 00:20:52.593 --> 00:20:56.673 By fo fostering that discussion in d in different channels. 00:20:57.173 --> 00:21:01.823 We also have like a feature feature board, and these are all the places basically 00:21:01.873 --> 00:21:07.003 like our partners who integrate with us, and they're, they're quite a lot of them. 00:21:07.423 --> 00:21:10.603 Who basically with whom we have synergy, right? 00:21:10.603 --> 00:21:14.893 Like this is a big thing I think in the API space like the 00:21:15.103 --> 00:21:16.723 business aspect of the APIs. 00:21:16.723 --> 00:21:21.283 If you provide like a good platform that can be easily or apt. 00:21:22.093 --> 00:21:28.153 Two that can be, that have exposes a lot of like API features. 00:21:28.483 --> 00:21:31.873 Then you have the synergy with other partners and you can kind of propel 00:21:31.903 --> 00:21:37.093 your, both businesses and through both customers in terms of like value. 00:21:37.643 --> 00:21:40.133 Mike Bifulco: I'm curious, can you tell us a little bit about how the 00:21:40.193 --> 00:21:41.483 product is built in the backend? 00:21:41.483 --> 00:21:43.683 Like , what tools are you using to manage and maintain the API? 00:21:43.900 --> 00:21:45.940 Rich: That's a good question as well. 00:21:45.990 --> 00:21:50.280 ClickFunnels is built on on Ruby Rails. 00:21:50.280 --> 00:21:50.790 Mike Bifulco: Okay. 00:21:51.105 --> 00:21:54.525 Rich: Additionally, it's also built on bullet train. 00:21:54.525 --> 00:22:02.695 So bullet train is an open source SAS building framework on top of Ruben Rails. 00:22:03.355 --> 00:22:06.265 And it's basically like Ruben Rails on steroids for SaaS. 00:22:06.315 --> 00:22:12.225 The creator of this framework, Andrew Culver and the the open source team 00:22:12.405 --> 00:22:18.695 who's working on it, they have created this this pretty cool starter kit 00:22:18.695 --> 00:22:22.055 for, for SaaS and for APIs as well. 00:22:22.105 --> 00:22:26.655 It is funny that . It was ahead of its time a little bit in, in the Ruby 00:22:26.655 --> 00:22:31.890 rail space because in the enterprise world where different technologies 00:22:31.890 --> 00:22:39.260 play a bigger role like Java and c and wherever and even Python, like in 00:22:39.290 --> 00:22:41.857 where microservices play a bigger role. 00:22:41.857 --> 00:22:45.637 It's more common to build something like API first. 00:22:45.637 --> 00:22:46.717 Would you agree? 00:22:46.747 --> 00:22:52.167 Like, because Ruby Rails is more like SaaS web applications. 00:22:52.197 --> 00:22:52.567 Phil: Yeah. 00:22:52.567 --> 00:22:57.007 I definitely feel like there, there's a lot more kind of, let's sit around and 00:22:57.007 --> 00:22:59.397 spend a year planning this thing in, in 00:22:59.397 --> 00:23:02.367 those enterprises just 'cause of the, the, the nature of the size 00:23:02.367 --> 00:23:04.377 of company and they wanna make sure they get it right, you know? 00:23:04.597 --> 00:23:08.132 They're, they're often a bit less agile, a bit more waterfall because. 00:23:08.507 --> 00:23:10.997 They are gonna spend, yeah, like sometimes, literally 00:23:10.997 --> 00:23:11.507 six Months. 00:23:11.507 --> 00:23:15.077 to a year, like planning what they need and involving stakeholders 00:23:15.357 --> 00:23:19.827 before, before they even kind of get around to writing any code. 00:23:19.827 --> 00:23:22.317 Whereas I am consistent, you know? 00:23:22.417 --> 00:23:26.887 In previous jobs where Rails has been the thing, you'd be in a meeting talking about 00:23:26.947 --> 00:23:28.957 what, what we might need from this API. 00:23:28.957 --> 00:23:31.987 And someone's already started typing rails new into their command line. 00:23:31.987 --> 00:23:35.237 Like they will not stop coding because of the because of the 00:23:35.237 --> 00:23:36.737 kind of agile nature of it all. 00:23:36.737 --> 00:23:39.977 And the fact that there are like generators and Scaffolders people will 00:23:40.157 --> 00:23:42.647 immediately try and just be like, his hit. 00:23:42.677 --> 00:23:44.717 well, you've mentioned these five resources. 00:23:44.717 --> 00:23:44.897 I've. 00:23:44.897 --> 00:23:46.187 already made the controllers for them. 00:23:46.307 --> 00:23:48.317 The API's basically done, what are we talking about? 00:23:48.797 --> 00:23:49.157 So 00:23:49.337 --> 00:23:54.617 Rich: The funny thing, you, me mentioned scaffolds, like it's a console command 00:23:54.677 --> 00:24:00.127 for anyone who's not into like rails and, and this stuff where you have you 00:24:00.127 --> 00:24:04.357 just type it in and it creates like controllers, models, like a bunch of 00:24:04.357 --> 00:24:06.427 code that you would write manually. 00:24:06.427 --> 00:24:11.617 In other language system frameworks and like Bullet train has super scaffold, so 00:24:11.617 --> 00:24:17.137 it provides you with extra functionality, a lot of UI things already built in. 00:24:17.137 --> 00:24:21.797 So it is pretty cool and yeah, it is cool that you agree that there is 00:24:21.827 --> 00:24:28.367 like more ity on with like in Ruby and Rails teams, maybe also in PPHP 00:24:28.367 --> 00:24:32.507 teams or like some other, tech bubbles. 00:24:33.057 --> 00:24:33.347 Yeah. 00:24:33.617 --> 00:24:36.237 Mike Bifulco: That seems to be a pattern that's found some favor 00:24:36.237 --> 00:24:38.877 with people, especially with getting off to the races quickly. 00:24:38.937 --> 00:24:42.302 You can like Phil was saying, rails new, is a funny shortcut for just 00:24:42.302 --> 00:24:43.322 like, oh, I'm gonna build a thing. 00:24:43.322 --> 00:24:44.072 I've got the solution. 00:24:44.072 --> 00:24:44.582 It's coming. 00:24:44.582 --> 00:24:48.462 And scaffolding is kind of halfway in between where you may be growing 00:24:48.462 --> 00:24:51.602 your understanding of the thing and, you can use a scaffold to create 00:24:51.602 --> 00:24:53.402 all of the crud stuff very quickly. 00:24:53.677 --> 00:24:57.397 My understanding of super scaffolding is that it's make the crud stuff 00:24:57.397 --> 00:25:00.427 so that your web app has all of the views for a list and a show and an 00:25:00.427 --> 00:25:04.957 edit, but also that you now have an API that does those same things too. 00:25:05.007 --> 00:25:05.517 Rich: Oh yeah. 00:25:05.517 --> 00:25:07.287 Well, how do you know this? 00:25:07.287 --> 00:25:08.502 Have you worked with train? 00:25:08.962 --> 00:25:11.742 Mike Bifulco: I haven't worked with Bullet train but at Kraftwerk we're 00:25:11.742 --> 00:25:13.962 building our product on top of Rails. 00:25:13.962 --> 00:25:18.012 So I've done a bunch of research about Rails API, providers and patterns. 00:25:18.012 --> 00:25:21.132 And I think one of the interesting things about Ruby on Rails is 00:25:21.132 --> 00:25:26.022 that for a, a framework that is so, so hell bent on having like 00:25:26.022 --> 00:25:27.402 the rails way to do everything. 00:25:27.687 --> 00:25:30.987 When it comes to APIs, there isn't really a fully formed opinion. 00:25:31.037 --> 00:25:36.017 And there's many types of ways of kind of getting to what feels like a similar 00:25:36.017 --> 00:25:38.867 end result enough to the point where it feels like maybe that should just be 00:25:39.077 --> 00:25:40.697 somewhat standardized at this point too. 00:25:40.697 --> 00:25:44.327 And super scaffolding seems, seems to come up every time I look up, you know, how do 00:25:44.327 --> 00:25:46.697 I make a nice rest API using my rails app? 00:25:47.052 --> 00:25:50.712 . Rich: This is exactly where, where I was saying that bullet train 00:25:50.742 --> 00:25:56.052 was a little bit ahead of its time in the ruby rails space because, 00:25:56.472 --> 00:25:59.952 because of its ity, because of how. 00:25:59.952 --> 00:26:07.112 The rails main driver company, which is like Rails and so Source, right? 00:26:07.112 --> 00:26:12.355 And behind Rails, like the main core contributors are, , from a co 00:26:12.355 --> 00:26:14.515 from the rails creator basically. 00:26:14.515 --> 00:26:18.475 Who, who, who's like DHH David Heiner Hansen. 00:26:19.025 --> 00:26:25.545 He's the founder or creator of Frails and he, like his company is basically 00:26:25.545 --> 00:26:27.525 the, the main driver of this technology. 00:26:28.005 --> 00:26:34.305 And if you look at their API, you might have, like Basecamp is one of their apps. 00:26:34.545 --> 00:26:39.765 If you look at the base cam play this a PIV four, you might get an idea why Rails. 00:26:39.765 --> 00:26:43.965 API standardization is in the state that it's currently in. 00:26:44.465 --> 00:26:45.665 Because it's funny, it's actually funny. 00:26:45.715 --> 00:26:48.535 Their APIs basically hosted on GitHub. 00:26:49.035 --> 00:26:54.145 It doesn't, it just examples with, with some text and I'm not sure 00:26:54.145 --> 00:26:56.365 they are auto generating anything. 00:26:56.365 --> 00:26:56.965 Maybe they are. 00:26:56.965 --> 00:27:03.395 But in the end it's just like example response, payload and text. 00:27:03.395 --> 00:27:07.985 So they haven't ever, I think I'm looking this up like a couple 00:27:07.985 --> 00:27:11.105 of times a year, probably every year for the last five years. 00:27:11.855 --> 00:27:16.135 And I don't think they ever with any of their products, they went into like 00:27:16.135 --> 00:27:20.095 generating an open API schema providing like a developer hub or anything. 00:27:20.095 --> 00:27:20.935 So they never. 00:27:21.565 --> 00:27:26.185 Got into this stuff so it never became part of the Rails core framework and 00:27:26.435 --> 00:27:26.795 Phil: yeah. 00:27:26.795 --> 00:27:30.365 I think he's a bit busy writing fascist manifestos to get down writing any open 00:27:30.365 --> 00:27:33.665 API, but it would be, it would be nice to see a little bit more effort put 00:27:33.665 --> 00:27:38.015 into actually describing, describing any of the APIs involved properly. 00:27:38.310 --> 00:27:41.640 Because yeah, it has just been the, the classic, like worst 00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:44.460 possible example of here is a url. 00:27:44.490 --> 00:27:46.260 Here is some stuff you might throw. 00:27:46.260 --> 00:27:46.500 at it. 00:27:46.500 --> 00:27:51.270 We're not gonna, describe any of the, of the data types or validations or anything 00:27:51.270 --> 00:27:54.630 that you'll actually need and just go figure it out and see what happens. 00:27:54.900 --> 00:27:56.850 Because I forget the name of the term. 00:27:56.850 --> 00:27:57.840 I think it's, Hirums Law. 00:27:58.040 --> 00:28:01.820 Or I'm just getting it wrong and I'm googling frantically, but the, the 00:28:01.820 --> 00:28:04.060 law that any part of an interface. 00:28:04.705 --> 00:28:06.955 Can and will be used as an API. 00:28:07.225 --> 00:28:08.155 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:28:08.155 --> 00:28:09.295 There I actually got it right. 00:28:09.295 --> 00:28:09.955 Go me. 00:28:09.955 --> 00:28:12.595 I've said it to like three other people recently, so retroactively. 00:28:12.595 --> 00:28:13.075 That's good. 00:28:13.575 --> 00:28:15.705 With a sufficient number of users of an api. 00:28:15.705 --> 00:28:19.455 It does not matter what you promise in the contract All observable behaviors of your 00:28:19.455 --> 00:28:21.255 system will be depended on by somebody. 00:28:21.615 --> 00:28:23.145 And so with Rails, because 00:28:23.205 --> 00:28:27.045 there are often a lot of different ways of doing something, and sometimes 00:28:27.045 --> 00:28:31.335 those things change if you are not documenting the way that things should be. 00:28:31.335 --> 00:28:34.245 done and there are multiple ways of doing it, then you have no 00:28:34.245 --> 00:28:35.745 idea if you're breaking an API. 00:28:36.090 --> 00:28:41.850 Like the fact that Rails has from day one somewhat ruined the entire internet's 00:28:41.850 --> 00:28:43.800 Understanding of the difference between, 00:28:43.800 --> 00:28:44.520 a put and a patch. 00:28:44.520 --> 00:28:45.330 'cause there isn't one, 00:28:45.660 --> 00:28:47.400 it's just the same thing in Rails, right? 00:28:47.400 --> 00:28:48.660 And they've just never changed that. 00:28:48.960 --> 00:28:52.440 And the fact, and the fact that sometimes they, they support like putting a dot 00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.690 Jason on the end or, or a content type. 00:28:54.690 --> 00:28:58.380 Like there's a lot of these weird ways where they've just gone screw it both 00:28:58.860 --> 00:28:59.520 and. 00:28:59.850 --> 00:29:02.400 If that's not written down in a contract somewhere, you don't have 00:29:02.400 --> 00:29:05.310 a contract, you just have vibes that might shift and break everything. 00:29:05.340 --> 00:29:05.700 So 00:29:05.935 --> 00:29:10.500 I, I would like to see open API considered as important, not only 00:29:10.500 --> 00:29:17.960 to David Heil Hanson, but the companies that he works for and the, 00:29:17.960 --> 00:29:19.460 the core product itself, you know. 00:29:19.595 --> 00:29:23.675 Rich: Yeah, I'm on a mission, a actually to to get there and bullet train. 00:29:24.350 --> 00:29:29.030 Is, and I, I don't know how many years it'll take, but maybe, maybe someday. 00:29:29.030 --> 00:29:30.290 And bullet train. 00:29:30.830 --> 00:29:37.610 One more time back to the head of its time thing, it with the super scaffolding 00:29:37.640 --> 00:29:44.030 it provides you with with an API namespace, this is like the regular way. 00:29:44.540 --> 00:29:48.365 It's not classic API first development because. 00:29:48.853 --> 00:29:51.973 It's not like a separate service in the end Rails is still like a 00:29:51.973 --> 00:29:57.493 monolith but it has like, it gets like a touch of API first into the 00:29:57.493 --> 00:30:04.723 monolith and you get the the specific API version namespace in there. 00:30:04.783 --> 00:30:08.073 You you have even the parameters. 00:30:08.073 --> 00:30:13.623 Are initially when you do the su super scaffold, like the parameters of the 00:30:13.623 --> 00:30:20.233 domain code in the controllers makes use of the parameters in the API control. 00:30:20.308 --> 00:30:24.213 Control so that you kind of think from the beginning about, 00:30:24.753 --> 00:30:27.033 Hey, what's, what would be here? 00:30:27.033 --> 00:30:31.043 Like like something I can or should expose or shouldn't. 00:30:31.043 --> 00:30:38.273 And yeah, not to forget, there is the, the open API quote unquote 00:30:38.273 --> 00:30:44.473 problem, which, in the rails world, because it's an unsolved problem. 00:30:44.543 --> 00:30:47.193 I would consider it unsolved to. 00:30:47.883 --> 00:30:51.993 Generate your open API schema from code itself. 00:30:52.023 --> 00:30:56.253 I, I don't know you guys, do you agree that like in Python or like 00:30:56.403 --> 00:31:03.153 some type languages there are extremely solid open API generators. 00:31:03.623 --> 00:31:07.733 And I'm always saying like, fast API is the most prominent example, but do 00:31:07.733 --> 00:31:11.493 you agree that there are like kind of bulletproof, more or less at least? 00:31:11.698 --> 00:31:12.118 Phil: No. 00:31:12.118 --> 00:31:14.038 I mean, every, every I. 00:31:14.683 --> 00:31:14.983 Every 00:31:14.983 --> 00:31:16.873 Language has one framework that takes the 00:31:16.873 --> 00:31:17.713 view that 00:31:17.953 --> 00:31:18.313 open. 00:31:18.313 --> 00:31:21.223 API is something that you should just vomit out after you've 00:31:21.223 --> 00:31:22.573 finished writing all of your code. 00:31:22.843 --> 00:31:23.683 And, and 00:31:23.683 --> 00:31:26.623 whether that's coming directly from the code because of types or whether 00:31:26.623 --> 00:31:27.223 it's coming from 00:31:27.223 --> 00:31:28.333 annotations that are 00:31:28.633 --> 00:31:30.583 confusing, proximity with accuracy, 00:31:30.583 --> 00:31:33.673 they kind of just, you know, throw something out 'cause they were told to and 00:31:33.673 --> 00:31:34.693 they couldn't be bothered to think about 00:31:34.693 --> 00:31:35.623 doing it first. 00:31:35.893 --> 00:31:36.133 And 00:31:36.133 --> 00:31:36.703 that is. 00:31:36.703 --> 00:31:38.953 you know, helpful in some regards. 00:31:38.953 --> 00:31:42.613 But I think most, most frameworks have. 00:31:43.423 --> 00:31:46.753 A way of ingesting open API, 00:31:46.753 --> 00:31:46.963 Right? 00:31:46.963 --> 00:31:47.173 The 00:31:47.173 --> 00:31:48.913 API design first workflow being, 00:31:49.093 --> 00:31:53.083 I'm actually gonna do this open API first, and then whatever code I end up using 00:31:53.083 --> 00:31:53.563 will simply 00:31:53.563 --> 00:31:53.923 be 00:31:54.133 --> 00:31:54.283 an 00:31:54.283 --> 00:31:55.603 implementation of this. 00:31:55.683 --> 00:31:58.503 Without going the full, like I'm gonna generate the entire code 00:31:58.503 --> 00:32:00.843 off of the open API, which is usually a bit of a faf. 00:32:01.203 --> 00:32:01.623 A lot of, 00:32:01.623 --> 00:32:02.983 them have like. 00:32:03.283 --> 00:32:05.213 Server side request validation 00:32:05.213 --> 00:32:06.833 so that you don't have to write that yourself 00:32:06.893 --> 00:32:07.163 And 00:32:07.193 --> 00:32:07.793 then make sure 00:32:07.793 --> 00:32:08.453 that it matches. 00:32:08.453 --> 00:32:12.113 because you can just say, Hey, this middleware, can you validate 00:32:12.113 --> 00:32:15.263 the incoming request based off of open API and reject anything that's 00:32:15.263 --> 00:32:15.743 rubbish. 00:32:15.833 --> 00:32:19.433 And then they have like some other sort of like aspect, you know, test 00:32:19.483 --> 00:32:21.493 unit testing extension that just 00:32:21.493 --> 00:32:21.823 Says 00:32:21.823 --> 00:32:22.693 oh, and hey, can you make 00:32:22.693 --> 00:32:22.933 Sure. 00:32:22.933 --> 00:32:26.053 that this response coming back matches the open API that said it should 00:32:26.533 --> 00:32:29.113 and annoyingly most frameworks. 00:32:29.443 --> 00:32:32.443 Have those sort of options, but there are always some random little plugin 00:32:32.443 --> 00:32:34.663 main maintained by, you know, some guy. 00:32:35.123 --> 00:32:37.823 And I think that more and more API frameworks or any 00:32:37.823 --> 00:32:38.543 Web application 00:32:38.543 --> 00:32:39.323 framework that wants to 00:32:39.323 --> 00:32:40.163 pretend that it's 00:32:40.193 --> 00:32:41.723 you know, focusing on APIs 00:32:41.723 --> 00:32:44.003 needs to bring those into the core, 00:32:44.273 --> 00:32:44.453 and 00:32:44.453 --> 00:32:46.523 make it incredibly easy and recommended 00:32:46.733 --> 00:32:47.123 to, 00:32:47.123 --> 00:32:50.363 instead of defining everything in some random DSL, you 00:32:50.363 --> 00:32:51.503 could simply 00:32:51.713 --> 00:32:52.103 point it 00:32:52.103 --> 00:32:54.203 at your open API and save, wrangle that code. 00:32:54.488 --> 00:32:54.638 I, 00:32:54.638 --> 00:32:55.268 I'd love to see 00:32:55.268 --> 00:32:57.308 Ruby do more of that and Rails do more of 00:32:57.308 --> 00:32:57.488 that. 00:32:57.488 --> 00:32:59.448 'cause there are really good extensions out there for 00:32:59.448 --> 00:33:00.003 that sort of thing. 00:33:00.608 --> 00:33:01.148 Rich: Yeah. 00:33:01.208 --> 00:33:03.158 it, that's exactly the thing. 00:33:03.158 --> 00:33:04.808 Like an R swag. 00:33:04.808 --> 00:33:09.118 It's one of the best options right now in the real space where you kind of write 00:33:09.118 --> 00:33:14.188 the tests first and then it also generates an O-P-A-P-I schema from the test. 00:33:14.188 --> 00:33:17.458 But it's still a little bit of A-D-D-S-L there, right? 00:33:17.458 --> 00:33:20.878 It's not really generating from code, 00:33:20.878 --> 00:33:21.388 Phil: oh yeah, sure. 00:33:21.448 --> 00:33:22.648 That's, that's something different. 00:33:22.648 --> 00:33:26.158 That's aspect is just the generic testing framework like PHP unit or 00:33:26.158 --> 00:33:28.078 J unit or just whatever test runner, 00:33:28.438 --> 00:33:29.368 um, the. 00:33:30.068 --> 00:33:30.728 Ah, swag. 00:33:30.728 --> 00:33:30.878 Yeah. 00:33:30.878 --> 00:33:33.428 I think that doesn't even support the latest versions these days, and 00:33:33.488 --> 00:33:36.578 they can't be, they can't, can't be interested in up update updating it. 00:33:36.578 --> 00:33:39.788 So mostly what I try and recommend to people is instead of. 00:33:40.508 --> 00:33:44.648 Some people don't like writing open API and instead of writing open API, 00:33:44.678 --> 00:33:48.338 they write some other sort of awkward DSL, which then gets out of date 00:33:48.338 --> 00:33:51.068 because they've tried to simplify it by taking shortcuts, which then don't 00:33:51.068 --> 00:33:53.078 represent the full reality of open API. 00:33:53.478 --> 00:33:56.868 So honestly, just like learn to write it or use, use copilot 00:33:56.868 --> 00:33:58.128 to help you or whatever. 00:33:58.278 --> 00:33:58.428 But 00:33:58.428 --> 00:33:59.058 my, My. 00:33:59.058 --> 00:34:01.098 preferred thing is still like, just actually write 00:34:01.098 --> 00:34:02.418 the open API, it's portable. 00:34:02.628 --> 00:34:04.788 If you rewrite your version two of your API. 00:34:04.858 --> 00:34:09.488 And whatever go instead of Rails, then app days, it, it's still exactly the same. 00:34:09.488 --> 00:34:13.478 And you have something there for breaking change detection because you, you know, 00:34:13.478 --> 00:34:16.898 that you haven't accidentally broken the API 'cause it's, you know, being tested 00:34:16.898 --> 00:34:18.278 and validated against the whole way. 00:34:18.628 --> 00:34:21.388 But that is probably a whole other episode and one that we 00:34:21.388 --> 00:34:22.648 did recently. 00:34:22.648 --> 00:34:24.388 So I'll get off my soapbox. 00:34:24.688 --> 00:34:29.328 Rich: No, it, it is good stuff because we also thought about testing 00:34:29.328 --> 00:34:31.068 this as an alternative approach. 00:34:31.068 --> 00:34:37.608 Like what would be the cost of doing like this manually or design 00:34:37.608 --> 00:34:42.828 first versus having our own auto generation, which we have now. 00:34:43.168 --> 00:34:47.398 But it also comes with some things that need to be improved. 00:34:47.398 --> 00:34:52.012 Like , the final vision of this is that bullet, the bullet train open. 00:34:52.012 --> 00:34:56.802 API generation would have like the perfect generation generated 00:34:56.802 --> 00:35:03.252 from code and just like clean, cool generation from code, but. 00:35:03.752 --> 00:35:05.647 Yeah, , that's the other thought experiment there. 00:35:05.647 --> 00:35:10.957 Like what would it cost actually in comparison to us getting it there, the 00:35:10.957 --> 00:35:14.617 technology there, what would it cost to actually doing the design first thing? 00:35:14.917 --> 00:35:18.217 Mike Bifulco: So Rich I, I know you've mentioned earlier in the chat that 00:35:18.217 --> 00:35:21.993 you have been doing some consulting work my understanding is maybe at 00:35:21.993 --> 00:35:25.393 least that you may be working on ClickFunnel as a consultant there too. 00:35:25.393 --> 00:35:28.023 Are you working with folks currently outside of ClickFunnel? 00:35:28.023 --> 00:35:29.163 Are there projects you're working on? 00:35:29.248 --> 00:35:29.368 Rich: on? 00:35:30.033 --> 00:35:30.603 Yeah, sure. 00:35:30.603 --> 00:35:36.143 So yeah, my main consulting right now goes into the ClickFunnels business 00:35:36.143 --> 00:35:40.493 operating system, a BI, I'm super passionate about that project, but. 00:35:40.493 --> 00:35:45.983 I'm also working together with people to help them create their apps. 00:35:46.273 --> 00:35:50.503 Marketing First in the Ruby Rail space because we as developers tend to 00:35:50.933 --> 00:35:55.283 develop a lot and keep our heads in the code a lot, but then we don't really 00:35:55.283 --> 00:35:57.443 think about the Mark marketing aspect. 00:35:57.503 --> 00:35:59.873 Unfortunately a lot of times so. 00:36:00.023 --> 00:36:00.473 Yeah. 00:36:00.533 --> 00:36:06.513 I'm working with developers and developers to help them build their app marketing 00:36:06.513 --> 00:36:12.763 first and maybe with maybe also some projects will come out with backed by 00:36:12.763 --> 00:36:18.173 the ClickFunnels, API, to just see how you can delegate your user management 00:36:18.323 --> 00:36:22.553 to, to the api, to an API or to this API. 00:36:22.733 --> 00:36:25.133 So I'm working, that's one of my main. 00:36:25.508 --> 00:36:26.463 Projects right now, 00:36:26.563 --> 00:36:29.113 Mike Bifulco: I think that's something that I probably have shouted 00:36:29.113 --> 00:36:32.473 about on the internet infinitely for people building new products. 00:36:32.743 --> 00:36:36.163 Is that marketing your thing is every bit as important as making it work. 00:36:36.518 --> 00:36:39.698 Because if you build a product and nobody knows about it, ain't nobody gonna use it. 00:36:39.728 --> 00:36:42.608 And that's hugely problematic for a lot of founders who are super 00:36:42.728 --> 00:36:45.978 technically talented, but then never tell anyone what they're building. 00:36:45.978 --> 00:36:48.318 And there is no longer, and if you build it, they will come. 00:36:48.678 --> 00:36:50.358 It's uh, you gotta do both now. 00:36:50.448 --> 00:36:50.538 Rich: them. 00:36:50.988 --> 00:36:51.618 Yes. 00:36:51.618 --> 00:36:56.328 How many apps died because someone shipped an app, it's online, they 00:36:56.328 --> 00:36:58.758 dropped the link somewhere and then no 00:36:58.758 --> 00:36:59.808 one registered. 00:37:00.528 --> 00:37:03.408 . Mike Bifulco: So Rich what's the best way for people to find you online if 00:37:03.408 --> 00:37:04.363 they're interested in working with you? 00:37:04.363 --> 00:37:08.568 Rich: Yeah, I'm also asking myself this sometimes because things change a lot. 00:37:08.853 --> 00:37:16.543 But I think one solid place is always the rich stone.io/meat 00:37:16.543 --> 00:37:17.773 dash rich, 00:37:17.773 --> 00:37:21.253 That's the place where I kind of share where I'm at right now and 00:37:21.413 --> 00:37:23.633 what channels are best to find me on. 00:37:24.667 --> 00:37:26.407 I'm also an ex, I'm everywhere. 00:37:26.407 --> 00:37:28.222 I'm Rich Stone io basically. 00:37:29.137 --> 00:37:30.097 Mike Bifulco: Oh, that makes it easy. 00:37:30.097 --> 00:37:33.837 And I'll make sure to drop a link to your site in the show notes 00:37:33.837 --> 00:37:35.067 so people can find that as well. 00:37:35.067 --> 00:37:38.547 I've also jotted down a handful of things related to ClickFunnels and 00:37:38.547 --> 00:37:39.747 bullet train and, and the like. 00:37:40.247 --> 00:37:42.497 We'd love to have you come back some time in wax philosophical little 00:37:42.497 --> 00:37:45.217 bit about Rails and open API I think that'd be a fun chat too. 00:37:45.877 --> 00:37:46.567 Rich: That'd be awesome. 00:37:46.567 --> 00:37:46.777 Yeah. 00:37:47.147 --> 00:37:47.777 . And, and by the way, 00:37:48.267 --> 00:37:54.467 I just wanted to mention that the Ruby Rails community being like the web app. 00:37:54.467 --> 00:37:56.777 Framework and, and language. 00:37:56.807 --> 00:38:00.217 They will really appreciate the things that you are sharing and doing 00:38:00.247 --> 00:38:02.227 about like APIs and integrations. 00:38:02.227 --> 00:38:07.327 So it's good to have you more in our world as well. 00:38:07.807 --> 00:38:08.737 Mike Bifulco: Well, thanks so much. 00:38:08.737 --> 00:38:09.427 Yeah, I appreciate it. 00:38:09.427 --> 00:38:12.547 It is a hugely, hugely responsive community, and they're definitely. 00:38:12.917 --> 00:38:15.107 Very opinionated , and nice to chat with too. 00:38:15.107 --> 00:38:17.327 People are pretty reasonable to talk through what they're 00:38:17.327 --> 00:38:20.237 working on and you know, why they prefer this over that, and so on. 00:38:20.637 --> 00:38:24.567 I'll find myself deeper and deeper in that as the the days where on certainly too. 00:38:24.617 --> 00:38:26.207 Alright, fellas, well, let's call it a day from there. 00:38:26.207 --> 00:38:27.347 Thank you so much for hanging out. 00:38:27.347 --> 00:38:28.757 It's been really nice chatting with you, rich. 00:38:28.757 --> 00:38:29.357 Have a great day. 00:38:29.357 --> 00:38:30.047 Thank you for coming. 00:38:30.317 --> 00:38:31.232 Rich: Thank you very much. 00:38:31.232 --> 00:38:31.712 Bye. 00:38:32.207 --> 00:38:32.897 Mike Bifulco: Bye, Phil. 00:38:32.897 --> 00:38:33.437 Until next time 00:38:33.437 --> 00:38:33.677 mate. 00:38:33.870 --> 00:38:34.090 Phil: yes. 00:38:34.090 --> 00:38:34.545 See it.