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I remember thinking I could go to the White House in jeans.

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They told me no.

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And I'm like,

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oh god,

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I don't own a suit.

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I gotta get a suit.

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I literally went out to the store and was like,

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let me go buy a suit 

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because I'm gonna go to the White House.

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All right, so with me

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today is Daniel Kivatinos.

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Daniel Kivatinos is a

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successful second time YC founder

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with his first company, Dr. Chrono,

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having a nine figure exit,

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which was a top 30 startup exit for YC.

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Daniel put in the grind for 14 years

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and raised millions of dollars.

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And Daniel got into YC

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again with his current company,

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JustPaid.ai.

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So JustPaid is a smart new

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way to generate invoicing

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to receive payments, sort of

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think of it as an assistant

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to help a company's finance team.

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And with the

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accounting shortage in the US,

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JustPaid's work is

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definitely solving a deep, deep pain.

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JustPaid is solving a problem

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that doesn't exactly jump out

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at us in our everyday lives.

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How did you get into

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this unsexy space, Daniel?

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Yeah, so I mean, just at a high level,

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I started a company called

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Dr. Chrono way back when.

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And I saw the problem

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there, but not just there.

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I saw the problem in

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other startups where,

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you know, you hire

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generally a finance team

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and the finance team

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helps with the company.

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And this is just one

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of those things where,

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as you build a company and

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as you become successful,

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you start to generate

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more and more revenue.

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And as you generate

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more and more revenue,

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you tend to have to figure out ways to

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collect that revenue.

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And a lot of the time

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you are just hiring people.

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It's just a people

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driven like industry today.

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And, you know, it's kind

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of like drivers of cars

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and drivers of like rigs, you know,

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today it's primarily people.

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What is it gonna look

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like in 10 years, right?

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Are you gonna have just

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people driving cars anymore?

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The answer is probably maybe.

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Like there might be like an approach

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where some people are driving cars and

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others are automated.

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I kind of view the same thing with

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accounts receivable.

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AP, they call it AR and then

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there's AP accounts payable.

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So accounts receivable is every business

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needs to generate revenue.

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The thing is, it's just

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a very painful process.

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Like did this customer pay us?

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Can we pay these bills?

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Because an example is like, you know,

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you're a broker of

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something like servers or whatever.

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You, you know, you're

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basically leasing $100,000 worth

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of servers, you know, getting

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that server space for somebody

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and that's a hundred thousand dollars.

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So you have, you

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basically lease it for a hundred K

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but then this person

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owes you a hundred K.

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So you're kind of

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figuring out like who owes what,

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what, who, you know, it

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gets really confusing.

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So hire people to literally like,

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I'd call it like bean

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counting where you're literally

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figuring out where's all

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the money, who owes us what.

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And then can we make

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these payments over here

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because we, you know, these people are like,

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these people owe us hundreds of thousands

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or millions of dollars.

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Can we do this and that?

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So generally it's a,

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you know, as companies

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are more successful, it's

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very hard in the early days

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to see this, but you

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know, if you're generating

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a hundred million dollars in revenue,

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how do you think you're going to collect?

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How does that revenue get collected?

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Right? Like who generally is just people,

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like making sure invoices go out and

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people make payments.

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And it's a people driven industry.

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So, you know, I met

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with my co-founder Analia

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and my other co-founder Renee, you know,

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prior to starting this company,

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and we just kind of just

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said, this is a problem.

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It's a really specific

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problem that every business

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in the United States has at some level.

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And it's huge.

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And it's not just the United

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States is across the globe,

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but it's, you know, can you

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impact and support businesses

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as they scale and become more successful

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and build something

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meaningful in that way

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that would be like fun to work on.

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And I think Analia got

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really passionate about this

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and Renee got really passionate.

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And I felt like it was a

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really good space to go into.

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It just, the market's not only big,

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but it's also there's a need where

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when you have like

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people driven industries,

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there tends to be

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disruption down, you know,

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down the road if the technology is there.

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And AI is here and you know,

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all this money is

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going into AI right now.

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It's just a really big industry.

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So kind of a long winded

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answer to your question.

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Yeah.

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How did you decide to like start there

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after such a

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successful exit with Dr. Crono?

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You could have done pretty

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much anything or nothing at all.

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Like why did you decide to do just paid

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and solve this problem?

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It's a really good question.

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I think, you know, when

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you are an entrepreneur,

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I think you have so

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much time in life, right?

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Like life is short.

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And if you want to start businesses,

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you have to do it fairly quickly

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when you're like you have the energy.

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And you know, we're all,

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the way I look at it is

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we're all going to die.

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You know, we only have so much time

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and like what impact and what,

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what like legacy do you

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want to leave out there

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for people to think of you

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and what you're working on?

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And I think like,

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just sitting around for

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me doesn't sound appealing.

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Honestly, it doesn't sound like what,

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it doesn't sound like fun for me.

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I think part of the journey

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of just going and learning

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and you know, becoming a

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founder is a very, very,

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as weird as it sounds, it's a better,

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it's a better way to learn than,

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than school.

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Like I learned a lot in school, you know,

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school was amazing.

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I actually, the school I went to,

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Stony Brook University was amazing,

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but I love the journey of like learning.

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And I think the

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camaraderie of having a team

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and having a mission, it's so impactful.

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Like it really for me is almost like,

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you have your family,

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you know, that's there.

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You have friends, but

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then there's this mission

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that you work on with a group of people

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and you get really

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smart people in a room.

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Like amazing things can

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happen that you could never expect.

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Right?

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It's amazing.

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You look at the companies like SpaceX,

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who would have thought that

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would have been successful?

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Yeah.

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Nobody thought that was

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going to be successful,

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but you put really

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smart people in a room,

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you know, and they all feel

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like they're on a mission.

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You get this really amazing output

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and that excites me.

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And I'm like, that drives me a lot

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where I can work on

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something for 10, 15 years

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because we have a mission

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to do something important.

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And the team is behind me and you know,

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it's a lot of fun.

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That's a part that

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really like pulled me back in

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very quickly.

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And honestly, it's

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finding the right people

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that are passionate and

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you feel like can do it.

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You know, you don't

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want to start a company.

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And this is another thing with people

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that you just are not

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excited working with.

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Right?

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You want people that you believe in

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and are smarter than

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you that can like help you

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get to the goal, whatever that goal is.

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And you know, so picking

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the right people to work with

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is so important in the early days.

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It's so critical.

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And you know, in VCs

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always think about this,

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like what does the

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founding team look like?

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Right?

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Like it's so important to a company

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because that dynamic creates the value

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from their energy in

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the way that they're like

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thinking about the business

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and the way that they

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play off of each other

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and their expertise and their skillset.

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How would you make your first hires?

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Like if you were

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starting another company today

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or maybe even for Just Paid

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since you relatively

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recently began Just Paid,

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how do you make sure you really have got

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the right people in the right places

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and that you're

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screening for the right talent?

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That's tough.

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I think there's not a

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single founder I know

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that would say they've done it perfectly.

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It's something that a lot

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of people struggle with.

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How do you do it?

287
00:08:30,291 --> 00:08:31,166
I mean, you're never

288
00:08:31,166 --> 00:08:31,916
gonna get it perfect.

289
00:08:32,333 --> 00:08:34,000
You're never gonna like build a company.

290
00:08:34,500 --> 00:08:36,791
It is a game of like sport

291
00:08:37,166 --> 00:08:40,250
where you're kind of building the team

292
00:08:41,208 --> 00:08:42,625
and the team is always changing.

293
00:08:42,625 --> 00:08:44,083
So it may not be the same people

294
00:08:45,166 --> 00:08:46,208
throughout the life of the company.

295
00:08:47,958 --> 00:08:50,958
I mean, in different phases,

296
00:08:50,958 --> 00:08:52,208
you hire for different people.

297
00:08:52,458 --> 00:08:53,708
I think in the early phases,

298
00:08:54,083 --> 00:08:57,208
like I was talking to

299
00:08:57,208 --> 00:08:58,250
the founder of Mercury

300
00:08:59,250 --> 00:09:00,000
and in the early days,

301
00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:00,541
he just could get

302
00:09:00,541 --> 00:09:02,000
whoever he could get, right?

303
00:09:02,291 --> 00:09:04,083
Like whoever could believe in his vision,

304
00:09:04,541 --> 00:09:08,375
like that's generally like what is true

305
00:09:08,458 --> 00:09:09,875
is you try to find

306
00:09:09,875 --> 00:09:11,333
people out like our believers,

307
00:09:12,250 --> 00:09:14,916
but also people that are not negative

308
00:09:15,333 --> 00:09:18,541
or they kind of pull you down

309
00:09:18,833 --> 00:09:20,416
or they're like,

310
00:09:22,083 --> 00:09:23,958
you get a sense and

311
00:09:23,958 --> 00:09:26,041
everybody thinks it's all like IQ,

312
00:09:26,416 --> 00:09:27,458
like building a company.

313
00:09:27,458 --> 00:09:28,541
A lot of it is like EQ,

314
00:09:29,083 --> 00:09:32,041
like emotional intelligence.

315
00:09:33,166 --> 00:09:36,000
You wanna know, can I

316
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:36,916
work with this person?

317
00:09:37,708 --> 00:09:39,166
Can they do something amazing?

318
00:09:40,458 --> 00:09:41,625
And a lot of, again, like

319
00:09:41,625 --> 00:09:43,166
investors look at it this way,

320
00:09:43,208 --> 00:09:45,375
the most successful companies

321
00:09:46,791 --> 00:09:47,708
or they may not be the

322
00:09:47,708 --> 00:09:48,500
most smartest people.

323
00:09:49,375 --> 00:09:49,958
They might just be the

324
00:09:49,958 --> 00:09:51,166
people that are like committed

325
00:09:51,166 --> 00:09:52,458
to the mission and get it

326
00:09:52,458 --> 00:09:55,583
to from 0.0 to 0.8 billion,

327
00:09:56,166 --> 00:09:57,583
where they're hugely successful.

328
00:09:59,125 --> 00:10:03,541
So for me, I think look for people

329
00:10:03,541 --> 00:10:04,291
that wanna work with

330
00:10:04,291 --> 00:10:05,208
you in the early days

331
00:10:05,208 --> 00:10:06,166
and look for people that

332
00:10:06,166 --> 00:10:07,958
are not like mercenaries.

333
00:10:08,458 --> 00:10:09,125
And what's a mercenary?

334
00:10:09,458 --> 00:10:11,375
Somebody wants a $400,000 salary

335
00:10:12,916 --> 00:10:14,416
and they want, you know,

336
00:10:15,125 --> 00:10:16,208
RS use in your company

337
00:10:16,208 --> 00:10:17,875
and they want security

338
00:10:18,083 --> 00:10:19,625
and they wanna make sure the company has,

339
00:10:20,833 --> 00:10:22,666
you know, whatever it is,

340
00:10:22,666 --> 00:10:23,833
$700 million in the bank.

341
00:10:25,500 --> 00:10:26,750
There are generally

342
00:10:26,750 --> 00:10:28,958
mercenaries that are like that

343
00:10:28,958 --> 00:10:30,500
and they're really good at what they do.

344
00:10:31,041 --> 00:10:32,666
And you wanna hire people like that

345
00:10:32,666 --> 00:10:33,833
because they're good at what they do.

346
00:10:33,833 --> 00:10:34,958
But in the early days,

347
00:10:36,208 --> 00:10:37,208
those are not the right

348
00:10:37,208 --> 00:10:38,125
people for the company.

349
00:10:38,375 --> 00:10:41,000
You want someone who kind of,

350
00:10:41,166 --> 00:10:41,875
it's kind of like a

351
00:10:41,875 --> 00:10:43,750
ragtag team, like Moneyball.

352
00:10:44,583 --> 00:10:45,291
I don't know, everyone

353
00:10:45,291 --> 00:10:46,958
who is like into startups

354
00:10:46,958 --> 00:10:48,375
should look at the movie Moneyball.

355
00:10:48,375 --> 00:10:49,125
Like just watch that movie

356
00:10:49,125 --> 00:10:50,458
once and you'll understand.

357
00:10:51,333 --> 00:10:52,833
Like you're gonna work

358
00:10:52,833 --> 00:10:54,125
with imperfect people

359
00:10:54,625 --> 00:10:55,625
that have personalities.

360
00:10:56,875 --> 00:10:59,125
And the reality is even

361
00:10:59,125 --> 00:11:00,416
when you get those mercenaries,

362
00:11:00,708 --> 00:11:01,916
they're imperfect also.

363
00:11:02,708 --> 00:11:04,291
And they have their own vision

364
00:11:04,291 --> 00:11:05,583
of what the company is gonna be.

365
00:11:06,166 --> 00:11:07,333
But in the early days

366
00:11:07,333 --> 00:11:08,125
when you have a missionary,

367
00:11:08,625 --> 00:11:09,916
they're like working for

368
00:11:09,916 --> 00:11:13,166
whatever, 1 fifth of salary.

369
00:11:14,125 --> 00:11:16,208
And they just don't care about the salary

370
00:11:16,208 --> 00:11:17,000
because they really

371
00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:17,833
wanna work on something

372
00:11:17,833 --> 00:11:19,125
that they wanna work on.

373
00:11:19,875 --> 00:11:21,458
And they like you and you like them

374
00:11:21,458 --> 00:11:24,541
and you start like riffing off each other

375
00:11:24,541 --> 00:11:25,958
and you start figuring out, okay,

376
00:11:25,958 --> 00:11:26,541
this is the way the

377
00:11:26,541 --> 00:11:27,458
company's gonna get built.

378
00:11:28,791 --> 00:11:31,666
So like, I think that was one of my,

379
00:11:32,958 --> 00:11:34,208
one of my, every

380
00:11:34,208 --> 00:11:36,458
founder has some superpowers.

381
00:11:36,458 --> 00:11:37,833
One of mine was like just getting people

382
00:11:37,833 --> 00:11:39,166
to want to work with us.

383
00:11:41,208 --> 00:11:42,125
That was a superpower

384
00:11:42,125 --> 00:11:43,000
in the early days of,

385
00:11:43,333 --> 00:11:45,458
I'd say just any company I work with,

386
00:11:45,458 --> 00:11:47,000
it's like people

387
00:11:47,000 --> 00:11:48,916
generally want to work around

388
00:11:51,500 --> 00:11:52,958
really positive people.

389
00:11:52,958 --> 00:11:53,583
And I would say I'm

390
00:11:53,583 --> 00:11:55,291
generally a very positive person

391
00:11:55,291 --> 00:11:56,875
and people like that.

392
00:11:56,875 --> 00:11:57,958
They're like, I wanna work with you.

393
00:11:58,750 --> 00:12:01,000
So a lot of them are missionaries

394
00:12:01,791 --> 00:12:03,333
that are just, they wanna jump in,

395
00:12:03,333 --> 00:12:04,916
they start to just try to do stuff.

396
00:12:04,916 --> 00:12:07,958
And you see if it's a good working,

397
00:12:08,583 --> 00:12:09,833
dynamic working with them.

398
00:12:12,208 --> 00:12:14,666
How did you decide on your mission?

399
00:12:15,041 --> 00:12:15,708
And like, how do you

400
00:12:15,708 --> 00:12:17,666
like find a worthy mission

401
00:12:17,916 --> 00:12:20,125
that like you and your team could like

402
00:12:20,125 --> 00:12:21,458
work endlessly behind

403
00:12:21,916 --> 00:12:24,416
and persevere, endure, have that grit?

404
00:12:25,083 --> 00:12:26,458
Like, how did you pick that?

405
00:12:27,208 --> 00:12:29,583
And how do you inspire like your team

406
00:12:29,875 --> 00:12:31,916
and like potential talent to

407
00:12:31,916 --> 00:12:33,458
like get behind that mission

408
00:12:33,458 --> 00:12:34,958
and be like a missionary?

409
00:12:34,958 --> 00:12:35,833
They probably, you probably

410
00:12:35,833 --> 00:12:36,958
don't just encounter talent

411
00:12:36,958 --> 00:12:38,583
in the wild who's like, I

412
00:12:38,583 --> 00:12:40,541
want to change invoicing.

413
00:12:40,541 --> 00:12:41,083
I wanna join a

414
00:12:41,083 --> 00:12:42,541
company that changes the way

415
00:12:42,541 --> 00:12:43,666
like finance departments

416
00:12:43,666 --> 00:12:45,208
run, like from the get go.

417
00:12:45,208 --> 00:12:45,916
You probably have to

418
00:12:45,916 --> 00:12:47,458
do something more there.

419
00:12:47,458 --> 00:12:48,833
How do you make that magic happen?

420
00:12:51,125 --> 00:12:52,250
I mean, you really don't

421
00:12:52,250 --> 00:12:53,750
know what the right idea is

422
00:12:53,750 --> 00:12:54,541
in the early days.

423
00:12:57,250 --> 00:12:58,875
Apple did not think about

424
00:12:58,875 --> 00:13:00,375
the iPhone from day one.

425
00:13:00,750 --> 00:13:02,041
They didn't think they were gonna become

426
00:13:02,041 --> 00:13:03,541
and like this amazing

427
00:13:03,541 --> 00:13:04,916
company with the iPhone.

428
00:13:04,916 --> 00:13:06,958
Like that was not what

429
00:13:06,958 --> 00:13:07,833
they were thinking about

430
00:13:08,041 --> 00:13:08,750
when they started.

431
00:13:08,750 --> 00:13:09,500
They were like, all

432
00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:10,500
right, we're gonna try to sell

433
00:13:10,500 --> 00:13:12,916
a small computer for a home.

434
00:13:14,250 --> 00:13:15,208
And they had a really

435
00:13:15,208 --> 00:13:16,666
rough version of this thing

436
00:13:16,666 --> 00:13:17,416
where they had, they

437
00:13:17,416 --> 00:13:18,500
can only make so many

438
00:13:18,500 --> 00:13:19,916
and it just didn't work that well.

439
00:13:20,166 --> 00:13:22,375
And, you know, it kind of was a,

440
00:13:25,208 --> 00:13:26,833
it was a rough path for Apple.

441
00:13:27,166 --> 00:13:28,750
They didn't get there overnight.

442
00:13:29,250 --> 00:13:30,666
Like it wasn't easy.

443
00:13:30,666 --> 00:13:31,541
They almost went bankrupt.

444
00:13:32,041 --> 00:13:32,791
I don't know if you know that.

445
00:13:33,208 --> 00:13:34,833
They were on the brink of bankruptcy

446
00:13:35,125 --> 00:13:36,791
where Microsoft bailed

447
00:13:36,791 --> 00:13:37,791
them out with a big like,

448
00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:39,458
big amount of money.

449
00:13:39,958 --> 00:13:41,666
Who knew Microsoft would do that, right?

450
00:13:42,750 --> 00:13:43,458
Maybe it was because they

451
00:13:43,458 --> 00:13:44,583
thought of it as like a monopoly.

452
00:13:44,875 --> 00:13:46,541
And if there was only Microsoft, uh oh.

453
00:13:46,541 --> 00:13:48,333
So let's give Apple some money

454
00:13:48,333 --> 00:13:49,750
and then Apple out of nowhere

455
00:13:49,750 --> 00:13:50,541
just kind of created

456
00:13:50,541 --> 00:13:51,416
this amazing company.

457
00:13:51,625 --> 00:13:53,750
So like, I think the

458
00:13:53,750 --> 00:13:54,541
same thing with Nvidia,

459
00:13:54,875 --> 00:13:55,583
they didn't think they were

460
00:13:55,583 --> 00:13:56,791
gonna be what they became.

461
00:13:57,458 --> 00:13:58,333
They just were thinking

462
00:13:58,333 --> 00:14:01,250
about like just chips.

463
00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:03,750
And, you know, it wasn't

464
00:14:03,750 --> 00:14:05,625
about AI in the early days.

465
00:14:05,625 --> 00:14:07,166
It was not an AI company.

466
00:14:07,958 --> 00:14:09,375
So like you kind of, when

467
00:14:09,375 --> 00:14:10,625
you're climbing a mountain,

468
00:14:12,416 --> 00:14:13,208
you kind of have to

469
00:14:13,208 --> 00:14:16,125
take each step every day.

470
00:14:17,208 --> 00:14:20,541
And, you know, I mean, there's, you know,

471
00:14:20,541 --> 00:14:21,375
you probably heard this,

472
00:14:21,541 --> 00:14:22,958
people talk about like Kaizen.

473
00:14:23,166 --> 00:14:24,083
Maybe you haven't.

474
00:14:24,750 --> 00:14:25,458
Have you heard of that word?

475
00:14:25,750 --> 00:14:26,916
I haven't.

476
00:14:27,416 --> 00:14:30,458
It's doing one thing every day

477
00:14:30,458 --> 00:14:31,708
to make an impact essentially.

478
00:14:32,166 --> 00:14:33,125
It's at a high level.

479
00:14:33,333 --> 00:14:37,125
Like it's, it's do one thing today

480
00:14:37,125 --> 00:14:38,416
that'll make the company better.

481
00:14:39,458 --> 00:14:41,083
And, you know, what is,

482
00:14:41,500 --> 00:14:42,875
the question for me is like,

483
00:14:42,875 --> 00:14:43,791
every day it's like, what is

484
00:14:43,791 --> 00:14:45,000
gonna make the biggest impact

485
00:14:45,416 --> 00:14:46,000
on the company?

486
00:14:47,375 --> 00:14:48,416
And how do I get that

487
00:14:48,416 --> 00:14:49,500
one thing done today

488
00:14:49,500 --> 00:14:51,333
that'll help the team and the company?

489
00:14:53,833 --> 00:14:54,958
I think a lot of the

490
00:14:54,958 --> 00:14:56,208
companies that are out there

491
00:14:56,208 --> 00:14:57,250
are built this way that

492
00:14:57,250 --> 00:14:59,000
have like endured over time.

493
00:14:59,958 --> 00:15:03,666
It's not like, like,

494
00:15:03,666 --> 00:15:05,750
it's not like Netflix knew

495
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:07,833
that they were gonna be online streaming.

496
00:15:09,208 --> 00:15:10,958
They knew, I don't know if

497
00:15:10,958 --> 00:15:12,083
you know the history of Netflix,

498
00:15:12,083 --> 00:15:13,833
but they just kind of, they

499
00:15:13,833 --> 00:15:15,416
didn't even start with DVDs.

500
00:15:15,791 --> 00:15:17,291
Like they had to get to this path.

501
00:15:17,291 --> 00:15:17,833
They went down this

502
00:15:17,833 --> 00:15:18,708
path and they're like,

503
00:15:18,708 --> 00:15:19,708
DVDs are the answer.

504
00:15:20,375 --> 00:15:20,500
Let's start shipping DVDs.

505
00:15:20,541 --> 00:15:23,916
Okay, oh my God, let's try streaming.

506
00:15:24,208 --> 00:15:26,250
Like they didn't see it from day one,

507
00:15:26,250 --> 00:15:27,625
but it was like a process

508
00:15:27,625 --> 00:15:29,375
of refinement over time.

509
00:15:30,625 --> 00:15:33,083
And you would have never known that like,

510
00:15:35,500 --> 00:15:36,333
for anyone who like knows

511
00:15:36,333 --> 00:15:39,416
what VHS is and like video tapes,

512
00:15:39,416 --> 00:15:40,125
not everyone knows,

513
00:15:40,333 --> 00:15:41,500
but you know, Blockbuster

514
00:15:41,500 --> 00:15:42,666
was their big competitor

515
00:15:42,666 --> 00:15:44,416
where like they were both,

516
00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:46,458
they both like had DVDs

517
00:15:46,458 --> 00:15:47,000
and you could rent a DVD.

518
00:15:47,250 --> 00:15:51,250
And Blockbuster was on

519
00:15:51,250 --> 00:15:52,791
a path to crush Netflix.

520
00:15:53,625 --> 00:15:54,583
I don't know if you know this,

521
00:15:54,583 --> 00:15:57,000
like they were going to kill Netflix.

522
00:15:57,208 --> 00:15:58,583
They had a CEO who was on a

523
00:15:58,583 --> 00:15:59,750
mission to create streaming.

524
00:16:01,125 --> 00:16:04,833
And by the luck of, by Netflix's luck,

525
00:16:05,416 --> 00:16:08,666
like the CEO left Blockbuster

526
00:16:09,041 --> 00:16:09,875
and then Blockbuster

527
00:16:09,875 --> 00:16:11,291
immediately lost their way

528
00:16:11,291 --> 00:16:11,916
and just said, we're gonna

529
00:16:11,916 --> 00:16:13,083
just do the brick and mortar,

530
00:16:14,041 --> 00:16:17,083
double down and just have DVDs and stores

531
00:16:17,083 --> 00:16:17,875
because that's how we

532
00:16:17,875 --> 00:16:18,833
make all of our money.

533
00:16:18,833 --> 00:16:19,833
Like why would we do streaming?

534
00:16:20,041 --> 00:16:20,750
Like what would...

535
00:16:22,416 --> 00:16:23,041
And then suddenly

536
00:16:23,041 --> 00:16:24,083
Netflix had their chance.

537
00:16:24,375 --> 00:16:27,083
So it's like, there's this weird dynamic,

538
00:16:29,000 --> 00:16:30,708
I heard one entrepreneur say this to me

539
00:16:30,708 --> 00:16:33,083
and it stuck in my brain.

540
00:16:33,083 --> 00:16:37,625
It's like 60% luck, 40% determination.

541
00:16:39,458 --> 00:16:42,416
Like as crazy as that sounds.

542
00:16:42,875 --> 00:16:44,166
From day one, I was just

543
00:16:44,166 --> 00:16:46,166
like thinking about it.

544
00:16:46,166 --> 00:16:46,833
I'm like, what's a

545
00:16:46,833 --> 00:16:48,000
space that we could work in

546
00:16:48,000 --> 00:16:48,916
for a long time?

547
00:16:50,708 --> 00:16:51,958
And we had some crazy

548
00:16:51,958 --> 00:16:53,791
ideas before this idea.

549
00:16:55,291 --> 00:16:57,333
We had an idea to create like...

550
00:16:59,666 --> 00:17:01,666
This idea like, and we

551
00:17:01,666 --> 00:17:02,625
didn't go with this idea,

552
00:17:02,625 --> 00:17:04,208
but like basically like death care,

553
00:17:04,208 --> 00:17:05,291
completely different idea.

554
00:17:05,750 --> 00:17:06,916
Yeah, throwing you off.

555
00:17:07,250 --> 00:17:08,750
We were writing ideas now.

556
00:17:08,958 --> 00:17:10,916
Death care was like a way to help people

557
00:17:11,041 --> 00:17:12,083
that had like

558
00:17:12,083 --> 00:17:14,083
disastrous loss in their life

559
00:17:15,541 --> 00:17:16,000
create a better

560
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:20,208
experience for them in society

561
00:17:21,083 --> 00:17:22,166
because people don't look

562
00:17:22,166 --> 00:17:23,958
at that part of society much.

563
00:17:24,166 --> 00:17:25,041
I mean, that was like the

564
00:17:25,041 --> 00:17:26,750
broad idea of that idea.

565
00:17:28,125 --> 00:17:30,375
And something about it

566
00:17:30,375 --> 00:17:32,041
scared me where I was like,

567
00:17:33,666 --> 00:17:34,916
I don't know, I don't know if the

568
00:17:34,916 --> 00:17:35,750
market's big enough.

569
00:17:37,625 --> 00:17:38,625
I don't know if

570
00:17:38,625 --> 00:17:40,916
there's a real market there.

571
00:17:42,083 --> 00:17:43,541
My co-founder was really passionate.

572
00:17:43,750 --> 00:17:44,875
Vene, my one co-founder,

573
00:17:44,875 --> 00:17:45,916
he was super passionate

574
00:17:45,916 --> 00:17:47,291
about going into this field.

575
00:17:47,291 --> 00:17:49,333
And I'm like, I wanted to do it,

576
00:17:49,333 --> 00:17:50,333
but something was like

577
00:17:50,333 --> 00:17:51,541
telling me, be careful.

578
00:17:53,125 --> 00:17:54,083
Now, hindsight's

579
00:17:54,083 --> 00:17:55,541
20-20, I could kick myself.

580
00:17:55,791 --> 00:17:56,500
There may be like really

581
00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:58,708
amazing startups doing this idea.

582
00:17:58,708 --> 00:18:00,125
And there are a few that came

583
00:18:00,125 --> 00:18:01,583
out of YC in the last batch.

584
00:18:01,583 --> 00:18:02,041
I'm like, this is

585
00:18:02,041 --> 00:18:03,333
literally our original idea.

586
00:18:04,458 --> 00:18:08,000
And I'm like, it is, I don't

587
00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:09,000
know if it's a good idea or not

588
00:18:09,000 --> 00:18:10,083
because I never went that path.

589
00:18:10,333 --> 00:18:11,875
So I'm going down this path and I'm like,

590
00:18:12,458 --> 00:18:14,750
take it day by day and

591
00:18:14,750 --> 00:18:16,291
let's see what kind of change

592
00:18:16,291 --> 00:18:17,958
we can make in this industry

593
00:18:17,958 --> 00:18:18,916
with like really

594
00:18:18,916 --> 00:18:20,375
revolutionary technology.

595
00:18:23,583 --> 00:18:25,375
Yeah, looking back in hindsight,

596
00:18:25,375 --> 00:18:26,666
can you tell like why

597
00:18:26,666 --> 00:18:28,166
it is that your instincts

598
00:18:28,166 --> 00:18:29,125
were steering you away

599
00:18:29,125 --> 00:18:31,625
from starting that company

600
00:18:32,458 --> 00:18:33,750
about like end of life care?

601
00:18:37,416 --> 00:18:38,583
And did I understand

602
00:18:38,583 --> 00:18:40,541
correctly what it is towards it

603
00:18:40,541 --> 00:18:41,333
for end of life care

604
00:18:41,333 --> 00:18:42,583
or like managing death?

605
00:18:42,583 --> 00:18:43,958
Like what exactly would it have been

606
00:18:44,333 --> 00:18:45,166
if you're able to share?

607
00:18:45,916 --> 00:18:46,750
I mean, I think it was

608
00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:49,250
dealing with like trusts.

609
00:18:50,041 --> 00:18:51,416
It was dealing with

610
00:18:51,416 --> 00:18:54,250
like deeds and titles.

611
00:18:55,125 --> 00:18:56,375
It was dealing with like

612
00:18:56,375 --> 00:18:57,958
educate, mass education,

613
00:19:01,500 --> 00:19:02,416
like figuring out a way to

614
00:19:02,416 --> 00:19:03,458
have like a better experience

615
00:19:03,458 --> 00:19:05,000
where people just have an

616
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:07,291
easy way to get it like started.

617
00:19:11,375 --> 00:19:13,833
I, you know, right now

618
00:19:13,833 --> 00:19:15,000
everyone in the world

619
00:19:15,125 --> 00:19:16,791
basically has to like find

620
00:19:16,791 --> 00:19:18,875
a lawyer, right, to do this.

621
00:19:18,916 --> 00:19:21,125
When it comes to like picking an area

622
00:19:21,458 --> 00:19:23,125
that is that you could stay

623
00:19:23,125 --> 00:19:24,791
excited about for a long time,

624
00:19:25,125 --> 00:19:26,583
like how do you know?

625
00:19:27,166 --> 00:19:28,541
Like it's so hard to look ahead.

626
00:19:29,083 --> 00:19:29,666
You worked on Dr.

627
00:19:29,666 --> 00:19:31,958
Crono for 14 plus years.

628
00:19:32,291 --> 00:19:34,041
Like how were you able to stay excited?

629
00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:35,125
How did you know like,

630
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:36,125
oh, this is something

631
00:19:36,125 --> 00:19:37,833
I can persevere, this is something I

632
00:19:37,833 --> 00:19:38,666
could continue working

633
00:19:38,791 --> 00:19:40,291
on until I get lucky,

634
00:19:40,291 --> 00:19:41,708
until the opportunity comes.

635
00:19:41,708 --> 00:19:43,875
Like how did you know that was the space?

636
00:19:44,416 --> 00:19:45,291
And like how can other

637
00:19:45,291 --> 00:19:46,625
founders who are looking

638
00:19:46,625 --> 00:19:48,750
to start their first company know that

639
00:19:48,750 --> 00:19:49,500
they can stay excited

640
00:19:49,500 --> 00:19:50,291
about this thing?

641
00:19:52,666 --> 00:19:54,791
I think it's, you may

642
00:19:54,791 --> 00:19:55,708
not always be excited

643
00:19:55,708 --> 00:19:56,750
about what you're working on.

644
00:19:56,750 --> 00:19:57,583
Like there's days when

645
00:19:57,583 --> 00:19:58,541
you just want to run away

646
00:19:58,541 --> 00:20:00,625
and like hide.

647
00:20:02,500 --> 00:20:03,458
But there are

648
00:20:03,458 --> 00:20:05,166
industries where like you feel

649
00:20:05,333 --> 00:20:07,625
like something's off for you.

650
00:20:08,833 --> 00:20:10,250
And I'll give you an example for me

651
00:20:10,250 --> 00:20:11,500
where things were like off.

652
00:20:13,458 --> 00:20:14,916
Before I started Dr.

653
00:20:15,166 --> 00:20:16,125
Crono with my co-founder,

654
00:20:18,333 --> 00:20:20,416
in Dr. Crono, he wanted to

655
00:20:20,416 --> 00:20:21,750
really start a gaming company.

656
00:20:23,875 --> 00:20:29,458
And it just doesn't

657
00:20:29,458 --> 00:20:32,625
excite me for some reason.

658
00:20:33,125 --> 00:20:34,041
Like, and you have to like

659
00:20:34,041 --> 00:20:36,708
go into like your lower level

660
00:20:36,791 --> 00:20:37,708
trust systems.

661
00:20:37,916 --> 00:20:39,375
This is very strange to talk about.

662
00:20:39,375 --> 00:20:40,958
It's like, you get these

663
00:20:40,958 --> 00:20:42,000
senses and a lot of people

664
00:20:42,083 --> 00:20:44,125
ignore this, where you

665
00:20:44,125 --> 00:20:48,291
kind of have to trust

666
00:20:48,541 --> 00:20:50,416
whatever your body is telling you.

667
00:20:51,333 --> 00:20:52,541
And like something about

668
00:20:52,541 --> 00:20:56,708
gaming scares me because

669
00:21:01,666 --> 00:21:03,958
I feel like it's a very transient thing.

670
00:21:05,083 --> 00:21:07,041
And I'm trying to articulate what I mean.

671
00:21:07,333 --> 00:21:08,875
And I love games and I

672
00:21:08,875 --> 00:21:10,000
think people that build games,

673
00:21:10,000 --> 00:21:10,375
it's amazing.

674
00:21:10,583 --> 00:21:11,916
I think it's honestly a

675
00:21:11,916 --> 00:21:12,875
great industry to be in,

676
00:21:12,875 --> 00:21:14,625
but it's very,

677
00:21:17,833 --> 00:21:19,083
it's an industry where

678
00:21:19,083 --> 00:21:21,000
you either have a hit

679
00:21:21,166 --> 00:21:21,916
or you don't.

680
00:21:23,208 --> 00:21:24,916
And even if you have a hit,

681
00:21:26,458 --> 00:21:28,250
the longevity of the

682
00:21:28,250 --> 00:21:31,541
hit is like fleeting.

683
00:21:31,833 --> 00:21:33,041
It may be a few years.

684
00:21:33,416 --> 00:21:34,541
It might be five years.

685
00:21:34,541 --> 00:21:35,416
It might be 10 years.

686
00:21:36,541 --> 00:21:37,625
It might be one year.

687
00:21:37,625 --> 00:21:38,625
It might be six months.

688
00:21:39,583 --> 00:21:41,000
Like Pokemon Go.

689
00:21:41,416 --> 00:21:41,583
Yeah.

690
00:21:43,166 --> 00:21:45,291
Are people using it or is it gone?

691
00:21:45,291 --> 00:21:45,916
Is it done?

692
00:21:45,916 --> 00:21:47,291
Like, is it like a thing?

693
00:21:47,583 --> 00:21:49,125
Like, is it out there?

694
00:21:50,708 --> 00:21:52,333
Something about gaming

695
00:21:52,333 --> 00:21:54,208
like is unsettling to me

696
00:21:54,208 --> 00:21:55,500
when building a business.

697
00:21:56,750 --> 00:21:58,583
And I don't like the reset.

698
00:21:59,333 --> 00:22:00,500
Like we need to do another game.

699
00:22:00,958 --> 00:22:03,083
Like this game didn't work, reset.

700
00:22:03,916 --> 00:22:05,000
We need to do another game.

701
00:22:05,000 --> 00:22:05,875
And it feels very much

702
00:22:05,875 --> 00:22:07,041
like the movie industry,

703
00:22:08,458 --> 00:22:12,166
which you're starting

704
00:22:12,166 --> 00:22:13,583
from like zero essentially

705
00:22:13,958 --> 00:22:15,000
to try to get people to

706
00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,208
be excited about a movie.

707
00:22:17,333 --> 00:22:20,541
And I feel like I want to de-risk.

708
00:22:21,083 --> 00:22:23,458
And de-risk means compounding growth

709
00:22:23,625 --> 00:22:24,958
on an existing product.

710
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:28,916
And like Zynga.

711
00:22:28,916 --> 00:22:29,916
I don't know if Zynga is doing well

712
00:22:29,916 --> 00:22:30,875
or if they're not doing well,

713
00:22:31,125 --> 00:22:33,416
but they have like a pool of games,

714
00:22:33,750 --> 00:22:35,708
you know, and it's like a book of

715
00:22:35,708 --> 00:22:36,750
business, like gaming.

716
00:22:39,416 --> 00:22:40,458
For me, I like

717
00:22:40,458 --> 00:22:42,750
compounding companies in this sense.

718
00:22:42,750 --> 00:22:45,166
Like I really like what Facebook did.

719
00:22:47,291 --> 00:22:48,750
Again, social networks are,

720
00:22:48,750 --> 00:22:49,916
they're similar to gaming.

721
00:22:50,166 --> 00:22:51,166
You have to keep people's attention.

722
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:54,208
I like what like what

723
00:22:54,208 --> 00:22:55,833
the banking industry did,

724
00:22:55,833 --> 00:22:57,041
which is, I guess

725
00:22:57,041 --> 00:22:58,083
these are things that like

726
00:22:58,083 --> 00:23:00,041
are a part of your daily life.

727
00:23:00,458 --> 00:23:02,791
And it kind of

728
00:23:02,791 --> 00:23:04,833
integrates in in a way that like,

729
00:23:04,833 --> 00:23:07,708
it's useful to you on a daily basis.

730
00:23:07,958 --> 00:23:11,333
It's not something that may just,

731
00:23:12,458 --> 00:23:12,833
you watch it and you're done.

732
00:23:12,833 --> 00:23:15,750
You know, there's an

733
00:23:15,750 --> 00:23:16,875
attention span to that.

734
00:23:16,875 --> 00:23:17,833
So I'm like, how do

735
00:23:17,833 --> 00:23:19,250
you layer in more value

736
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:22,125
every single day onto an existing product

737
00:23:24,208 --> 00:23:26,833
that keeps people engaged and coming back

738
00:23:26,833 --> 00:23:30,041
and you have to refine it like a lot.

739
00:23:30,416 --> 00:23:31,125
But, you know, again,

740
00:23:31,125 --> 00:23:32,083
the software industry,

741
00:23:32,083 --> 00:23:34,291
what I mean, it is very

742
00:23:34,291 --> 00:23:36,125
like fickle, you know,

743
00:23:36,708 --> 00:23:39,458
good today, bad tomorrow, like, you know,

744
00:23:40,250 --> 00:23:41,125
but gaming is even more brutal.

745
00:23:41,500 --> 00:23:44,750
I'm like, I'd rather de-risk

746
00:23:44,750 --> 00:23:47,541
and build like a B2B business

747
00:23:47,541 --> 00:23:54,458
or a B2C business that isn't so fickle.

748
00:23:55,041 --> 00:23:56,083
And I could be totally wrong.

749
00:23:56,083 --> 00:23:57,166
I'm not in the gaming industry,

750
00:23:57,166 --> 00:23:59,166
but this is the way I perceive it.

751
00:23:59,750 --> 00:24:01,625
And I'm trusting my gut.

752
00:24:03,625 --> 00:24:05,500
And that's something that, yeah.

753
00:24:06,416 --> 00:24:07,375
Yeah, yeah, I get it.

754
00:24:07,791 --> 00:24:09,916
Is this connected to like your desire

755
00:24:09,916 --> 00:24:10,000
to build lasting companies?

756
00:24:10,041 --> 00:24:12,791
That perhaps like in the

757
00:24:12,791 --> 00:24:14,125
movie or the gaming industry,

758
00:24:14,125 --> 00:24:14,625
like having to

759
00:24:14,625 --> 00:24:16,250
continually like come up with like,

760
00:24:16,250 --> 00:24:17,708
you know, the hits, if you will,

761
00:24:18,125 --> 00:24:19,500
like perhaps aren't

762
00:24:19,500 --> 00:24:21,666
building something as like

763
00:24:21,666 --> 00:24:23,416
with a stronger foundation

764
00:24:23,416 --> 00:24:25,458
that could have like more lasting impact.

765
00:24:25,458 --> 00:24:26,750
Is that perhaps a part

766
00:24:26,750 --> 00:24:27,833
of why you feel that way?

767
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:33,000
Yeah, I would say so.

768
00:24:33,333 --> 00:24:34,500
I mean, but I would also

769
00:24:34,500 --> 00:24:37,166
say stability is better

770
00:24:38,375 --> 00:24:40,291
than instability.

771
00:24:40,875 --> 00:24:43,541
Like you want more revenue over time.

772
00:24:43,541 --> 00:24:44,958
You want people to like,

773
00:24:45,458 --> 00:24:46,833
I feel like with the gaming industry,

774
00:24:46,833 --> 00:24:48,416
it's like, boom, you have success.

775
00:24:48,416 --> 00:24:50,583
And then people just get bored.

776
00:24:51,666 --> 00:24:52,583
They lose interest.

777
00:24:53,083 --> 00:24:55,291
Like it's very, very,

778
00:24:56,000 --> 00:24:59,666
something is unsettling to me

779
00:24:59,666 --> 00:25:00,208
about that.

780
00:25:00,208 --> 00:25:03,250
I like the longevity of a like business

781
00:25:03,250 --> 00:25:04,458
that will continue compounding.

782
00:25:04,458 --> 00:25:08,125
Like I don't know, maybe you can name a business,

783
00:25:08,333 --> 00:25:10,500
but that you can think of one like.

784
00:25:12,125 --> 00:25:13,250
Amazon comes to mind.

785
00:25:13,250 --> 00:25:13,916
Yeah.

786
00:25:14,375 --> 00:25:16,250
Yeah, it's like the way they like started

787
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:17,000
with like just a

788
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:18,208
retail, like online bookstore

789
00:25:18,208 --> 00:25:21,458
and like how AWS has come from that.

790
00:25:21,458 --> 00:25:22,958
Like so many different like services

791
00:25:22,958 --> 00:25:25,000
and like how far they've spread.

792
00:25:25,833 --> 00:25:27,916
Like that, like there was clear,

793
00:25:28,708 --> 00:25:30,833
you know, expanding like potential there.

794
00:25:31,500 --> 00:25:32,666
In hindsight, of course.

795
00:25:32,666 --> 00:25:35,666
But with games, people are like, but with games perhaps, like in movies

796
00:25:36,250 --> 00:25:37,083
and that kind of like

797
00:25:37,083 --> 00:25:38,458
consume once content.

798
00:25:38,875 --> 00:25:40,208
Oh, I'm tired of it.

799
00:25:40,208 --> 00:25:42,166
Perhaps it's harder to build on top of

800
00:25:42,416 --> 00:25:44,416
to create like more value in like an

801
00:25:44,416 --> 00:25:45,666
ecosystem or a platform.

802
00:25:47,000 --> 00:25:48,125
That's exactly right.

803
00:25:48,125 --> 00:25:50,291
And I think Jeff Bezos like,

804
00:25:51,916 --> 00:25:52,500
smart guy.

805
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:53,750
He was really smart.

806
00:25:53,958 --> 00:25:56,458
Like he's thinking along the lines

807
00:25:56,458 --> 00:25:57,791
of the way I'm thinking it's like,

808
00:25:58,083 --> 00:25:59,375
he saw books as just a

809
00:25:59,375 --> 00:26:00,958
conduit to more products.

810
00:26:01,958 --> 00:26:02,416
You know, he's like,

811
00:26:02,416 --> 00:26:03,250
I'm gonna start with books

812
00:26:03,250 --> 00:26:04,583
cause everybody loves books.

813
00:26:04,583 --> 00:26:05,458
They love bookstores.

814
00:26:06,500 --> 00:26:07,166
I see the internet

815
00:26:07,166 --> 00:26:08,625
scaling it like a rapid pace

816
00:26:08,625 --> 00:26:09,708
and it's not gonna stop.

817
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:12,750
So the internet itself is like an engine

818
00:26:12,750 --> 00:26:13,875
to keep going faster

819
00:26:13,875 --> 00:26:14,833
and faster and faster.

820
00:26:16,458 --> 00:26:18,125
But if books don't sell,

821
00:26:18,583 --> 00:26:20,500
I built the product to

822
00:26:20,500 --> 00:26:22,291
sell other products on it.

823
00:26:22,958 --> 00:26:24,041
And I think that's a really

824
00:26:24,041 --> 00:26:25,291
smart way to think about it

825
00:26:25,291 --> 00:26:26,041
where it's not as

826
00:26:26,041 --> 00:26:28,916
unsettling as the movie industry.

827
00:26:29,125 --> 00:26:30,291
You know, there's these hit businesses,

828
00:26:32,041 --> 00:26:34,250
there's some of the

829
00:26:34,250 --> 00:26:36,041
tokens like crypto tokens,

830
00:26:36,041 --> 00:26:36,708
like whatever, you know,

831
00:26:36,708 --> 00:26:38,708
they have this like NFTs,

832
00:26:38,708 --> 00:26:39,250
those sorts of things.

833
00:26:39,500 --> 00:26:40,416
Not that those are bad,

834
00:26:40,416 --> 00:26:41,458
none of that stuff is bad.

835
00:26:41,708 --> 00:26:44,125
It's just for me as an entrepreneur,

836
00:26:44,541 --> 00:26:46,958
I feel like I like

837
00:26:46,958 --> 00:26:49,041
this long-term strategy

838
00:26:49,041 --> 00:26:51,500
of one thing that we

839
00:26:51,500 --> 00:26:53,416
could like continually refine.

840
00:26:56,083 --> 00:26:56,333
Yeah.

841
00:26:57,125 --> 00:26:57,333
Yeah.

842
00:26:57,541 --> 00:26:59,333
Do you think that Jeff Bezos like knew

843
00:26:59,458 --> 00:27:00,416
he was going to go

844
00:27:00,416 --> 00:27:02,916
like past books one day?

845
00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:03,375
Do you think like when

846
00:27:03,375 --> 00:27:04,666
he started selling book,

847
00:27:04,666 --> 00:27:05,750
like the first book online,

848
00:27:05,750 --> 00:27:06,875
that was part of the game plan.

849
00:27:07,458 --> 00:27:08,458
I'm starting with books today

850
00:27:08,458 --> 00:27:09,500
and then I'm gonna sell so

851
00:27:09,500 --> 00:27:10,833
much other stuff one day.

852
00:27:11,875 --> 00:27:15,041
I think he was very clear that like books

853
00:27:15,041 --> 00:27:15,541
were just the

854
00:27:15,541 --> 00:27:17,375
beginning of something bigger.

855
00:27:18,416 --> 00:27:20,958
I think his mindset was always that way,

856
00:27:20,958 --> 00:27:23,958
which was this is not a one hit wonder.

857
00:27:24,208 --> 00:27:25,041
It's not, you know,

858
00:27:25,041 --> 00:27:25,916
we're just gonna sell books

859
00:27:25,916 --> 00:27:26,583
and that's it.

860
00:27:26,791 --> 00:27:28,958
His mind was very much racing like,

861
00:27:30,041 --> 00:27:31,666
how do we get more users

862
00:27:31,666 --> 00:27:33,916
to buy more stuff on here?

863
00:27:34,125 --> 00:27:36,166
Because the internet's growing so fast.

864
00:27:36,208 --> 00:27:36,416
Yeah.

865
00:27:36,833 --> 00:27:39,208
We need to capture market and like

866
00:27:39,208 --> 00:27:40,458
everybody will see it.

867
00:27:40,833 --> 00:27:41,625
But I'm building the

868
00:27:41,625 --> 00:27:43,750
platform, not really the items,

869
00:27:43,750 --> 00:27:45,083
like other people were like, you know,

870
00:27:45,083 --> 00:27:45,916
other people were putting

871
00:27:45,916 --> 00:27:48,458
their inventory and whatnot,

872
00:27:48,708 --> 00:27:49,625
you know, but I think he

873
00:27:49,625 --> 00:27:50,750
saw the software itself

874
00:27:50,750 --> 00:27:54,333
as the core thing to sell other stuff.

875
00:27:56,125 --> 00:27:57,041
Yeah, okay.

876
00:27:57,458 --> 00:27:59,125
What were the books for Dr. Crono?

877
00:28:00,958 --> 00:28:02,541
The books for Dr. Crono.

878
00:28:03,208 --> 00:28:05,916
What was that first little bit?

879
00:28:07,625 --> 00:28:08,583
I mean, that company was

880
00:28:08,583 --> 00:28:10,000
built differently than,

881
00:28:10,583 --> 00:28:11,875
you know, I think what was

882
00:28:11,875 --> 00:28:13,208
pure software from the beginning,

883
00:28:13,458 --> 00:28:14,750
like I knew software could scale.

884
00:28:15,208 --> 00:28:16,583
Like Amazon existed.

885
00:28:17,166 --> 00:28:18,666
I saw Amazon success.

886
00:28:18,666 --> 00:28:23,666
I'm like, for me, I just saw, you know,

887
00:28:23,791 --> 00:28:24,625
medical records were

888
00:28:24,625 --> 00:28:26,083
something that were not digitized.

889
00:28:26,458 --> 00:28:28,416
It was just not a digitized thing.

890
00:28:29,416 --> 00:28:32,875
So I'm like, that's our way in

891
00:28:32,958 --> 00:28:34,875
because doctors are just using paper.

892
00:28:35,583 --> 00:28:37,375
And this is back in 2007, 2008.

893
00:28:38,375 --> 00:28:41,375
I had family members go to the doctor,

894
00:28:41,375 --> 00:28:42,500
I'd go to the doctor and

895
00:28:42,500 --> 00:28:43,708
they would just kind of

896
00:28:43,875 --> 00:28:46,791
ruffle through like paper and be like,

897
00:28:47,416 --> 00:28:48,541
when's your next tetanus shot?

898
00:28:48,541 --> 00:28:49,666
And I'd be like, I don't know.

899
00:28:50,125 --> 00:28:51,458
And I remember having this

900
00:28:51,458 --> 00:28:52,458
conversation with the doctor

901
00:28:52,583 --> 00:28:53,958
and he's like, I'll have to look it up.

902
00:28:53,958 --> 00:28:54,250
And then he would

903
00:28:54,250 --> 00:28:55,958
like, he ran over to like

904
00:28:55,958 --> 00:28:56,708
a corner of a room,

905
00:28:56,708 --> 00:28:58,000
he literally had files

906
00:28:58,291 --> 00:28:58,666
and he would just

907
00:28:58,666 --> 00:29:00,000
like ruffle through them.

908
00:29:00,000 --> 00:29:01,583
And he'd be like, I don't really know,

909
00:29:01,583 --> 00:29:02,000
but I'm just gonna

910
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:02,791
give you a tetanus shot.

911
00:29:03,291 --> 00:29:04,125
Oh no. That sounds great.

912
00:29:04,958 --> 00:29:07,750
Whatever, like, that sounds great.

913
00:29:08,333 --> 00:29:09,875
And that was the experience I had.

914
00:29:09,875 --> 00:29:11,833
And you know, my parents, same thing,

915
00:29:11,833 --> 00:29:14,291
my brother, sister, same thing.

916
00:29:14,291 --> 00:29:17,250
So I'm like, there's something there.

917
00:29:18,625 --> 00:29:20,291
And I want to go that way

918
00:29:20,291 --> 00:29:21,875
and we'll figure things out

919
00:29:22,041 --> 00:29:23,375
as we go down that path.

920
00:29:24,541 --> 00:29:26,583
And it was the paper

921
00:29:26,583 --> 00:29:30,458
that really bothered me.

922
00:29:31,083 --> 00:29:33,250
And it was the paper, you

923
00:29:33,250 --> 00:29:34,583
know, it sounds crazy today,

924
00:29:34,583 --> 00:29:35,583
but it was a paper

925
00:29:35,583 --> 00:29:36,791
driven industry back then.

926
00:29:37,208 --> 00:29:37,916
Like doctors would

927
00:29:37,916 --> 00:29:39,041
just have piles of paper

928
00:29:39,041 --> 00:29:40,333
and like you'd go to the doctor.

929
00:29:40,625 --> 00:29:41,666
It still is that way today.

930
00:29:41,666 --> 00:29:43,083
There's a lot of paper in

931
00:29:43,083 --> 00:29:44,750
like the medical industry.

932
00:29:44,750 --> 00:29:45,833
So you'll see it, but

933
00:29:45,833 --> 00:29:48,166
it was like 100 fold

934
00:29:48,166 --> 00:29:49,041
than what it is today.

935
00:29:49,333 --> 00:29:50,083
Like it was bad.

936
00:29:51,333 --> 00:29:53,666
Like everything was paper back then.

937
00:29:55,375 --> 00:29:56,958
Yeah, well, moving

938
00:29:56,958 --> 00:29:58,083
away from paper is great.

939
00:29:58,541 --> 00:30:00,250
Saving trees, improving efficiency.

940
00:30:00,791 --> 00:30:02,083
Like there's a lot of

941
00:30:02,083 --> 00:30:04,208
companies that are still like working

942
00:30:04,208 --> 00:30:05,916
to do that, like just

943
00:30:05,916 --> 00:30:06,916
revolutionizing these

944
00:30:06,916 --> 00:30:08,458
like unsexy problems,

945
00:30:09,041 --> 00:30:09,958
automating a lot of things.

946
00:30:09,958 --> 00:30:11,500
There's still a lot to be automated,

947
00:30:11,916 --> 00:30:13,083
but it's getting better,

948
00:30:13,083 --> 00:30:14,208
especially here in the US.

949
00:30:15,083 --> 00:30:17,500
But in your journey with Dr. Chrono,

950
00:30:18,291 --> 00:30:21,458
what was the closest

951
00:30:21,458 --> 00:30:23,083
you came to giving up?

952
00:30:23,375 --> 00:30:25,250
Like, you're like, fuck this, like,

953
00:30:25,250 --> 00:30:26,541
I can't do this anymore.

954
00:30:26,958 --> 00:30:28,083
Like, was there a point like that

955
00:30:28,083 --> 00:30:29,291
or several points like that?

956
00:30:30,333 --> 00:30:33,083
I mean, this goes for any startup.

957
00:30:33,083 --> 00:30:33,833
And if any startup

958
00:30:33,833 --> 00:30:35,250
founder says it's not true,

959
00:30:35,291 --> 00:30:36,750
it's lying, I think

960
00:30:36,750 --> 00:30:38,583
there's hard times in startups.

961
00:30:38,916 --> 00:30:43,125
And I think every startup founder goes

962
00:30:43,125 --> 00:30:44,041
to this psychological

963
00:30:44,041 --> 00:30:45,791
warfare against themself.

964
00:30:46,833 --> 00:30:48,166
And I think this is just what happens

965
00:30:48,166 --> 00:30:50,458
where you ask yourself

966
00:30:50,458 --> 00:30:51,416
like, what am I doing?

967
00:30:51,625 --> 00:30:52,583
Why am I doing this?

968
00:30:53,041 --> 00:30:55,708
Like, how do I continue on this path?

969
00:30:56,916 --> 00:30:59,833
You know, I kind of, I view it like this.

970
00:31:00,125 --> 00:31:01,375
Like it's very stressful,

971
00:31:01,583 --> 00:31:02,666
but it's like, if you...

972
00:31:06,666 --> 00:31:08,541
You're driving down like a highway at a

973
00:31:08,541 --> 00:31:09,500
hundred miles an hour.

974
00:31:09,500 --> 00:31:12,083
This is literally how I think about it.

975
00:31:12,250 --> 00:31:14,291
And you have two friends who have said

976
00:31:14,416 --> 00:31:16,083
that they could build wings onto the car.

977
00:31:17,208 --> 00:31:19,208
And in about like one hour,

978
00:31:19,208 --> 00:31:20,500
you're gonna fall off a cliff.

979
00:31:21,833 --> 00:31:23,333
And your friends are climbing out there,

980
00:31:23,333 --> 00:31:24,375
like putting the wings on,

981
00:31:24,875 --> 00:31:25,583
and you're driving a

982
00:31:25,583 --> 00:31:26,375
hundred miles an hour

983
00:31:26,541 --> 00:31:30,041
towards this end of this cliff.

984
00:31:31,500 --> 00:31:32,250
And that's the...

985
00:31:33,791 --> 00:31:34,875
Do you believe your

986
00:31:34,875 --> 00:31:36,416
friends can build the wings

987
00:31:37,791 --> 00:31:39,375
or do you stop the car immediately?

988
00:31:40,041 --> 00:31:41,833
And I think that's the psychological game

989
00:31:41,833 --> 00:31:43,625
that every founder goes through.

990
00:31:44,333 --> 00:31:45,958
Where they're like, can we do this?

991
00:31:46,375 --> 00:31:47,708
And everybody is kind of

992
00:31:47,708 --> 00:31:49,000
relying on everybody else

993
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,000
to like get the car to become a plane.

994
00:31:52,791 --> 00:31:53,000
Yeah.

995
00:31:53,958 --> 00:31:55,541
And there are startups

996
00:31:55,541 --> 00:31:56,750
literally doing that right now.

997
00:31:57,583 --> 00:32:01,500
But that cliff could be anything.

998
00:32:01,500 --> 00:32:02,250
It could be bankruptcy.

999
00:32:03,458 --> 00:32:04,958
It could be personal failure.

1000
00:32:05,333 --> 00:32:09,208
It could be, you don't have the money

1001
00:32:09,208 --> 00:32:11,208
to do something that you

1002
00:32:11,208 --> 00:32:12,416
need to, like a surgery.

1003
00:32:13,750 --> 00:32:14,500
I guess that's where

1004
00:32:14,500 --> 00:32:15,791
that stressor comes in.

1005
00:32:16,500 --> 00:32:18,458
Some people may not have as bad of

1006
00:32:18,458 --> 00:32:19,541
cliffs, maybe it's not.

1007
00:32:19,541 --> 00:32:20,833
But some people have disastrous,

1008
00:32:21,666 --> 00:32:22,958
my wife is gonna leave me.

1009
00:32:24,250 --> 00:32:26,833
It could be anything.

1010
00:32:27,916 --> 00:32:28,458
So there's...

1011
00:32:31,583 --> 00:32:32,291
So I think every

1012
00:32:32,291 --> 00:32:33,291
founder goes through this

1013
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:35,875
momentous stress in their life.

1014
00:32:37,666 --> 00:32:39,208
I mean, I can tell you some hard times

1015
00:32:39,208 --> 00:32:41,458
that I personally went through,

1016
00:32:41,541 --> 00:32:42,750
had nothing to do with the company.

1017
00:32:44,083 --> 00:32:44,291
Sure.

1018
00:32:47,375 --> 00:32:48,458
Because you're doing this while

1019
00:32:48,583 --> 00:32:50,125
you're running the company, right?

1020
00:32:50,125 --> 00:32:51,625
So like the personal, like

1021
00:32:51,625 --> 00:32:52,625
there's not exactly a division

1022
00:32:52,750 --> 00:32:53,583
between like your personal

1023
00:32:53,583 --> 00:32:55,208
hard times and the company.

1024
00:32:55,208 --> 00:32:55,916
Like it's all sort of

1025
00:32:55,916 --> 00:32:57,625
one blurry mess, right?

1026
00:32:58,958 --> 00:32:59,875
Yeah. Love to hear about it.

1027
00:33:00,333 --> 00:33:01,416
Yeah, exactly.

1028
00:33:01,916 --> 00:33:02,458
That's the thing.

1029
00:33:02,458 --> 00:33:03,083
It's like you have to

1030
00:33:03,083 --> 00:33:04,375
like have a personal life.

1031
00:33:06,333 --> 00:33:07,458
You know, you have family members

1032
00:33:07,458 --> 00:33:08,166
and you have like all

1033
00:33:08,166 --> 00:33:09,166
these people in your life.

1034
00:33:09,166 --> 00:33:11,250
But this, for me, a dark time I would say

1035
00:33:11,333 --> 00:33:14,208
was one of my really close

1036
00:33:14,208 --> 00:33:15,541
friends was working with me.

1037
00:33:16,416 --> 00:33:17,291
Like super close, we

1038
00:33:17,291 --> 00:33:18,208
were really good friends

1039
00:33:18,208 --> 00:33:19,958
and he passed away, right?

1040
00:33:20,791 --> 00:33:22,500
And I'm like dealing with that stress.

1041
00:33:24,333 --> 00:33:25,958
And I'm like, this is horrible.

1042
00:33:26,375 --> 00:33:27,708
Like I'm like processing it.

1043
00:33:28,125 --> 00:33:30,250
And then I got a phone call like,

1044
00:33:31,583 --> 00:33:32,750
my dad has brain cancer.

1045
00:33:34,458 --> 00:33:35,833
And then I'm like, oh no, I

1046
00:33:35,833 --> 00:33:37,250
don't have like life savings.

1047
00:33:37,541 --> 00:33:38,958
How am I gonna help him, right?

1048
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:42,041
And then I'm like helping my dad,

1049
00:33:42,375 --> 00:33:45,625
my friend passed away and my cat dies.

1050
00:33:46,916 --> 00:33:48,333
God. I don't know what happened,

1051
00:33:48,333 --> 00:33:49,291
but he was out and about

1052
00:33:49,291 --> 00:33:50,750
and my cat passes away.

1053
00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:51,583
So I'm like dealing

1054
00:33:51,583 --> 00:33:52,750
with all this like stress.

1055
00:33:52,958 --> 00:33:56,083
And I'm like, you have to

1056
00:33:56,083 --> 00:33:57,875
like still build a company

1057
00:33:57,875 --> 00:33:58,958
at the same time.

1058
00:33:58,958 --> 00:33:59,750
So it's like, and then

1059
00:33:59,750 --> 00:34:03,750
my dad passes away, right?

1060
00:34:03,750 --> 00:34:04,625
And I'm like dealing with

1061
00:34:04,625 --> 00:34:05,708
that building this company

1062
00:34:06,958 --> 00:34:09,125
and then my mom passes away.

1063
00:34:09,916 --> 00:34:11,125
And then my uncle passes

1064
00:34:11,125 --> 00:34:12,333
away all within a year.

1065
00:34:13,125 --> 00:34:13,875
Oh my God.

1066
00:34:13,875 --> 00:34:16,625
And I would say that was a rough time

1067
00:34:16,625 --> 00:34:18,833
because I was like, oh, I

1068
00:34:18,833 --> 00:34:20,291
was like, how do I do this?

1069
00:34:20,541 --> 00:34:22,250
Like, why am I doing this to myself?

1070
00:34:22,791 --> 00:34:24,208
Because I wasn't like wealthy.

1071
00:34:24,666 --> 00:34:27,333
I didn't have like, I

1072
00:34:27,333 --> 00:34:28,208
didn't have, you know,

1073
00:34:28,208 --> 00:34:29,958
I came from like small beginnings, right?

1074
00:34:30,125 --> 00:34:31,375
Like I didn't have wealth,

1075
00:34:31,375 --> 00:34:32,208
I didn't come from wealth.

1076
00:34:32,916 --> 00:34:36,416
So like, you wanna be

1077
00:34:36,416 --> 00:34:37,208
there for those people

1078
00:34:37,208 --> 00:34:38,583
like during those hard times,

1079
00:34:38,583 --> 00:34:39,000
like when they're

1080
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:39,875
going through these moments

1081
00:34:39,875 --> 00:34:42,250
and it's like operating a business,

1082
00:34:43,041 --> 00:34:44,041
helping your family, not

1083
00:34:44,041 --> 00:34:45,291
having like much money.

1084
00:34:46,041 --> 00:34:47,458
I would say it's psychologically,

1085
00:34:47,458 --> 00:34:48,333
if I worked for Google,

1086
00:34:48,333 --> 00:34:49,125
it would have been easier.

1087
00:34:50,125 --> 00:34:51,041
I could have like, you

1088
00:34:51,041 --> 00:34:53,458
know, taken three months off,

1089
00:34:53,916 --> 00:34:56,333
whatever, five months off, right?

1090
00:34:56,708 --> 00:34:57,666
Google, I'm sure they take

1091
00:34:57,666 --> 00:34:58,625
care of employees for that.

1092
00:34:58,625 --> 00:34:59,458
So there's, there are

1093
00:34:59,458 --> 00:35:00,833
benefits to being an employee

1094
00:35:01,208 --> 00:35:02,166
that I think employees,

1095
00:35:02,541 --> 00:35:04,166
like they get these perks,

1096
00:35:04,625 --> 00:35:06,208
like whatever it is, like,

1097
00:35:06,208 --> 00:35:07,500
you know, someone's pregnant,

1098
00:35:07,500 --> 00:35:09,000
you get time off, like you

1099
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,541
get that time off that you need.

1100
00:35:11,208 --> 00:35:12,333
When you're building a business,

1101
00:35:12,541 --> 00:35:15,833
you don't get that time off.

1102
00:35:15,833 --> 00:35:16,958
Like that's the reality

1103
00:35:16,958 --> 00:35:18,000
of building a business.

1104
00:35:18,541 --> 00:35:20,791
Like, and a lot of people

1105
00:35:20,791 --> 00:35:22,083
would just fold and crush

1106
00:35:22,375 --> 00:35:23,833
and like fall and be like, screw it,

1107
00:35:23,833 --> 00:35:24,750
I can't build it anymore.

1108
00:35:25,750 --> 00:35:26,791
So I think like going through that

1109
00:35:26,791 --> 00:35:28,083
psychological warfare,

1110
00:35:28,083 --> 00:35:29,291
what I'm talking about is like,

1111
00:35:29,958 --> 00:35:31,666
and there's other things like, you know,

1112
00:35:31,666 --> 00:35:32,958
I talked to hundreds

1113
00:35:32,958 --> 00:35:34,250
of founders and like,

1114
00:35:34,791 --> 00:35:36,500
I'm giving you what I went through.

1115
00:35:37,083 --> 00:35:41,000
Like every founder has like their thing

1116
00:35:42,083 --> 00:35:42,791
that they go through.

1117
00:35:42,791 --> 00:35:43,708
And I think it's, you know,

1118
00:35:43,875 --> 00:35:45,500
we went to Camp YC together.

1119
00:35:47,458 --> 00:35:48,375
I think, you know, a

1120
00:35:48,375 --> 00:35:49,166
lot of founders there

1121
00:35:49,166 --> 00:35:50,166
were really like talking

1122
00:35:50,166 --> 00:35:51,416
through a lot of the issues

1123
00:35:51,416 --> 00:35:52,291
that they were having.

1124
00:35:52,291 --> 00:35:53,250
And a lot of them had to do

1125
00:35:53,250 --> 00:35:56,166
just very different issues.

1126
00:35:56,166 --> 00:35:57,625
And I'm like, this is, you know,

1127
00:35:58,416 --> 00:36:01,583
building a company is not, it's easy.

1128
00:36:02,708 --> 00:36:03,500
In some senses, it's

1129
00:36:03,500 --> 00:36:05,041
really hard when personal life

1130
00:36:05,041 --> 00:36:07,750
is like also like battling for that time

1131
00:36:07,750 --> 00:36:09,833
and those resources in your life.

1132
00:36:11,375 --> 00:36:12,875
Yeah, I mean, like in a vacuum,

1133
00:36:13,250 --> 00:36:14,000
like starting a startup

1134
00:36:14,000 --> 00:36:15,125
sounds like a great idea,

1135
00:36:15,458 --> 00:36:16,625
but like when real life

1136
00:36:16,625 --> 00:36:19,166
comes at you and like, you know,

1137
00:36:19,166 --> 00:36:20,541
you have to take care of your own health

1138
00:36:20,666 --> 00:36:22,958
or your loved ones or, you know,

1139
00:36:23,375 --> 00:36:24,208
can't take the space you

1140
00:36:24,208 --> 00:36:25,458
need for yourself to like,

1141
00:36:25,833 --> 00:36:26,541
you know, recover from

1142
00:36:26,541 --> 00:36:28,416
grief or go through your grief.

1143
00:36:29,458 --> 00:36:31,666
Like that's the part, I don't think

1144
00:36:31,666 --> 00:36:32,791
anybody tells you about

1145
00:36:32,916 --> 00:36:34,958
before you start a company

1146
00:36:34,958 --> 00:36:36,416
that you really can't get that space.

1147
00:36:36,416 --> 00:36:37,958
You really like your

1148
00:36:37,958 --> 00:36:39,666
identity and the company's identity

1149
00:36:39,916 --> 00:36:42,375
sort of become merged in like a big way.

1150
00:36:42,666 --> 00:36:44,166
And like, you can't really step away.

1151
00:36:45,708 --> 00:36:48,291
Exactly, I mean, you could, but like,

1152
00:36:50,083 --> 00:36:51,125
most companies fail.

1153
00:36:51,125 --> 00:36:52,333
The reality is if you step

1154
00:36:52,333 --> 00:36:53,750
away, like for a long period,

1155
00:36:53,750 --> 00:36:54,625
it will just die.

1156
00:36:54,958 --> 00:36:57,833
Like, and you think, oh, it'll be fine.

1157
00:36:57,833 --> 00:36:59,500
It will, you lose that momentum.

1158
00:36:59,708 --> 00:37:00,791
People like look at you and

1159
00:37:00,791 --> 00:37:02,416
they see that like momentum loss.

1160
00:37:02,791 --> 00:37:05,916
Like, you know, sometimes they survive,

1161
00:37:05,916 --> 00:37:06,750
but I would say that

1162
00:37:06,750 --> 00:37:09,375
that's the more less normal.

1163
00:37:09,916 --> 00:37:13,833
So like every company is

1164
00:37:13,833 --> 00:37:16,291
a group of people, right?

1165
00:37:16,291 --> 00:37:17,375
Like every single

1166
00:37:17,375 --> 00:37:18,458
company is a group of people.

1167
00:37:18,458 --> 00:37:19,666
And it's like, they're all going through

1168
00:37:19,666 --> 00:37:20,333
their own personal

1169
00:37:20,333 --> 00:37:22,416
issues, but at the same time,

1170
00:37:22,500 --> 00:37:23,750
can you create a culture

1171
00:37:23,750 --> 00:37:25,208
that creates like greatness?

1172
00:37:26,458 --> 00:37:27,625
And like every year Apple

1173
00:37:27,625 --> 00:37:28,708
comes out with a new iPhone,

1174
00:37:28,958 --> 00:37:31,041
right, every year, they put this huge

1175
00:37:31,041 --> 00:37:32,000
pressure on themselves

1176
00:37:32,250 --> 00:37:33,875
to like reinvent what the

1177
00:37:33,875 --> 00:37:35,458
iPhone is and put it out there

1178
00:37:35,458 --> 00:37:37,791
and like show new software on the iPhone.

1179
00:37:40,041 --> 00:37:40,791
Sometimes like

1180
00:37:40,791 --> 00:37:42,125
creating cultures like that

1181
00:37:42,125 --> 00:37:42,833
where there's these like

1182
00:37:42,833 --> 00:37:44,500
pressure moments is really good

1183
00:37:44,500 --> 00:37:44,958
because then you're

1184
00:37:44,958 --> 00:37:46,250
striving towards that goal

1185
00:37:47,083 --> 00:37:48,416
to get whatever that is,

1186
00:37:48,416 --> 00:37:49,791
like to that goal, right?

1187
00:37:51,750 --> 00:37:53,291
Yeah, yeah.

1188
00:37:54,666 --> 00:37:57,541
So the founders who are about to give up,

1189
00:37:58,041 --> 00:38:01,291
who are like in that rut and are not sure

1190
00:38:01,291 --> 00:38:02,125
if they can keep going,

1191
00:38:02,833 --> 00:38:03,791
like what works for you

1192
00:38:04,000 --> 00:38:06,500
in like sticking with it?

1193
00:38:06,500 --> 00:38:07,958
What would you tell them to

1194
00:38:07,958 --> 00:38:10,083
like, to help them keep going?

1195
00:38:15,083 --> 00:38:16,541
I mean, there's a lot of

1196
00:38:16,541 --> 00:38:18,666
like thinking that goes into it,

1197
00:38:18,750 --> 00:38:20,541
but also a lot of emotions like,

1198
00:38:23,958 --> 00:38:28,583
I guess one of the things is like,

1199
00:38:28,583 --> 00:38:29,333
you're given this

1200
00:38:29,333 --> 00:38:31,416
opportunity, like don't fuck it up.

1201
00:38:31,708 --> 00:38:33,083
Like if you've gotten this far,

1202
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:35,416
So close.

1203
00:38:36,625 --> 00:38:37,291
I mean, if you've gotten,

1204
00:38:37,916 --> 00:38:38,916
say you have $2 million

1205
00:38:38,916 --> 00:38:40,458
in revenue, whatever it is,

1206
00:38:42,666 --> 00:38:45,833
and then like you hit a bump in the road,

1207
00:38:46,250 --> 00:38:48,541
whatever, your husband is gonna leave you

1208
00:38:49,333 --> 00:38:50,208
because you're working on your startup.

1209
00:38:50,458 --> 00:38:51,375
Like I hate to say it,

1210
00:38:51,375 --> 00:38:52,916
that's like part of the reality.

1211
00:38:52,916 --> 00:38:53,625
And it's like, you could

1212
00:38:53,625 --> 00:38:55,500
quit and go take care of your

1213
00:38:55,541 --> 00:38:57,458
husband and like fix that relationship.

1214
00:38:58,916 --> 00:38:59,625
Or you could build the

1215
00:38:59,625 --> 00:39:00,500
business that has $2 million.

1216
00:39:02,041 --> 00:39:03,125
And these are like hard

1217
00:39:03,125 --> 00:39:04,333
things that actually happen

1218
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,083
in real relationships

1219
00:39:06,083 --> 00:39:07,666
where like people are like,

1220
00:39:07,958 --> 00:39:09,208
damn, like I don't know,

1221
00:39:11,625 --> 00:39:12,583
I don't know what to do.

1222
00:39:12,583 --> 00:39:14,500
And it's like, you're

1223
00:39:14,500 --> 00:39:16,166
only given so many chances.

1224
00:39:16,416 --> 00:39:19,083
In my mind, like you live so long,

1225
00:39:19,083 --> 00:39:20,958
you live 80 years, 100 years,

1226
00:39:21,250 --> 00:39:22,916
like if you've gotten a

1227
00:39:22,916 --> 00:39:24,208
$2 million in revenue,

1228
00:39:25,458 --> 00:39:27,708
if you've gotten to $500,000 in revenue,

1229
00:39:28,583 --> 00:39:34,291
like do you want to peel

1230
00:39:34,291 --> 00:39:35,833
back and like give it up?

1231
00:39:35,833 --> 00:39:37,166
I mean, that's one piece of it.

1232
00:39:37,333 --> 00:39:39,708
And then the flip of the coin is like,

1233
00:39:41,208 --> 00:39:43,083
can you truly work for someone else?

1234
00:39:43,541 --> 00:39:45,458
Like, and this is for

1235
00:39:45,458 --> 00:39:46,583
some entrepreneurs out there.

1236
00:39:46,583 --> 00:39:47,708
I think some of them are so,

1237
00:39:48,875 --> 00:39:49,333
I met some

1238
00:39:49,333 --> 00:39:50,458
entrepreneurs who could not work

1239
00:39:50,458 --> 00:39:52,291
for other people at all, at all.

1240
00:39:52,666 --> 00:39:54,083
Like, and I think there's a

1241
00:39:54,083 --> 00:39:55,500
certain set of entrepreneurs

1242
00:39:55,500 --> 00:39:56,666
who can work for people

1243
00:39:56,666 --> 00:39:57,500
and there's a certain set

1244
00:39:57,500 --> 00:39:58,791
of entrepreneurs who can't.

1245
00:39:58,791 --> 00:39:59,625
You have to be really

1246
00:39:59,625 --> 00:40:00,791
realistic about that.

1247
00:40:00,791 --> 00:40:01,958
And like, if you cannot

1248
00:40:01,958 --> 00:40:03,250
work for other people,

1249
00:40:05,708 --> 00:40:06,500
don't give up.

1250
00:40:06,500 --> 00:40:07,416
Like it's just, the

1251
00:40:07,416 --> 00:40:08,916
reality is you have to keep going

1252
00:40:09,041 --> 00:40:10,666
down this path, right?

1253
00:40:11,208 --> 00:40:13,333
Like, and maybe your

1254
00:40:13,333 --> 00:40:14,750
relationship does fall apart.

1255
00:40:15,041 --> 00:40:16,458
Like I've been throwing this out there

1256
00:40:16,458 --> 00:40:18,208
because this is what literally happens.

1257
00:40:18,458 --> 00:40:20,583
Like, someone's husband is like,

1258
00:40:20,583 --> 00:40:21,833
hey, I'm not happy with all

1259
00:40:21,833 --> 00:40:22,916
the hours you're putting in.

1260
00:40:22,916 --> 00:40:24,666
This is like affecting our

1261
00:40:24,666 --> 00:40:27,083
relationship, wife, whatever.

1262
00:40:28,791 --> 00:40:30,958
So there's extreme moments

1263
00:40:30,958 --> 00:40:32,458
in like every person's life

1264
00:40:32,458 --> 00:40:33,083
where they're like

1265
00:40:33,083 --> 00:40:34,666
confronted over and over again.

1266
00:40:35,125 --> 00:40:35,958
Maybe you have like

1267
00:40:35,958 --> 00:40:37,125
one month in the bank of,

1268
00:40:38,458 --> 00:40:39,791
for the company or three months in the

1269
00:40:39,791 --> 00:40:40,500
bank for the company.

1270
00:40:40,916 --> 00:40:41,875
How do you get past that?

1271
00:40:42,250 --> 00:40:46,208
Like the reality is most

1272
00:40:46,208 --> 00:40:47,625
companies have these disastrous

1273
00:40:47,833 --> 00:40:48,458
moments where they're

1274
00:40:48,458 --> 00:40:49,375
like, I only have three months

1275
00:40:49,666 --> 00:40:50,500
of revenue left.

1276
00:40:51,291 --> 00:40:52,583
What the hell am I doing with my time?

1277
00:40:53,416 --> 00:40:54,208
And I do talk to

1278
00:40:54,208 --> 00:40:56,541
entrepreneurs like over the last month,

1279
00:40:56,541 --> 00:40:57,500
I spoke to one entrepreneur

1280
00:40:57,500 --> 00:40:58,666
who was in that situation.

1281
00:40:59,166 --> 00:41:01,666
And I'm like, I mean, I

1282
00:41:01,666 --> 00:41:02,625
asked them this question,

1283
00:41:02,625 --> 00:41:03,625
would you go work for Google?

1284
00:41:04,250 --> 00:41:05,500
That was the first thing I asked them.

1285
00:41:05,500 --> 00:41:06,000
And they said, no.

1286
00:41:07,375 --> 00:41:08,250
So I'm like, well, you got to

1287
00:41:08,250 --> 00:41:09,250
figure out a way out of this.

1288
00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:09,875
Then you have to like

1289
00:41:09,875 --> 00:41:10,833
work your way through this.

1290
00:41:12,541 --> 00:41:13,458
I mean, you heard about

1291
00:41:13,458 --> 00:41:14,708
like, burn your bridges, right?

1292
00:41:15,083 --> 00:41:15,833
Burn your boats.

1293
00:41:16,583 --> 00:41:16,791
Right.

1294
00:41:17,541 --> 00:41:18,625
Leave no option to return.

1295
00:41:20,041 --> 00:41:22,500
I mean, the reality is like,

1296
00:41:25,375 --> 00:41:26,208
if you don't have a life

1297
00:41:26,208 --> 00:41:30,583
savings and you, you know,

1298
00:41:32,291 --> 00:41:33,250
have nothing to lose,

1299
00:41:33,250 --> 00:41:34,041
you don't have a mortgage.

1300
00:41:36,583 --> 00:41:39,083
Those people are, you know, they have a

1301
00:41:39,083 --> 00:41:41,083
higher risk tolerance.

1302
00:41:42,291 --> 00:41:43,416
And for me, like when I

1303
00:41:43,416 --> 00:41:44,875
first started my first company,

1304
00:41:44,875 --> 00:41:46,333
I had, I intentionally

1305
00:41:46,333 --> 00:41:50,375
kept my life kind of simple.

1306
00:41:51,333 --> 00:41:53,583
But the reality is some

1307
00:41:53,583 --> 00:41:54,583
of my friends were like,

1308
00:41:54,833 --> 00:41:55,666
getting married.

1309
00:41:56,500 --> 00:41:57,666
Some of my friends were like

1310
00:41:57,666 --> 00:41:59,666
having like great families.

1311
00:41:59,666 --> 00:42:00,541
Some of my friends like

1312
00:42:00,541 --> 00:42:02,500
had a lot of life savings.

1313
00:42:02,833 --> 00:42:04,333
Like they had like, you

1314
00:42:04,333 --> 00:42:05,041
know, I'd be like, wow,

1315
00:42:05,041 --> 00:42:06,041
how did you save all that money?

1316
00:42:06,083 --> 00:42:07,916
I was like, yo, I worked for five years.

1317
00:42:07,916 --> 00:42:09,333
I'm like, man, what am I doing?

1318
00:42:09,333 --> 00:42:10,958
Like, what am I doing wrong?

1319
00:42:11,208 --> 00:42:12,958
Like I didn't save any money, you know?

1320
00:42:12,958 --> 00:42:13,708
And I'm like, oh my

1321
00:42:13,708 --> 00:42:15,375
God, I'm ruining my life.

1322
00:42:15,625 --> 00:42:16,958
Like, but whatever, like

1323
00:42:16,958 --> 00:42:18,250
this is the path I chose.

1324
00:42:18,250 --> 00:42:19,416
And I'm going to burn my

1325
00:42:19,416 --> 00:42:20,916
bridges and burn my boats.

1326
00:42:21,208 --> 00:42:21,791
Sorry, burn my boats.

1327
00:42:22,166 --> 00:42:23,791
And I'm going to go this path and like,

1328
00:42:24,083 --> 00:42:26,666
if I don't have a life savings, so be it.

1329
00:42:27,041 --> 00:42:29,208
Like, literally I'm like, if

1330
00:42:29,208 --> 00:42:30,333
I don't have a life savings

1331
00:42:30,333 --> 00:42:32,083
from the outcome of this,

1332
00:42:32,708 --> 00:42:34,750
but I'm going to work hard enough to try

1333
00:42:34,750 --> 00:42:35,666
to make that outcome

1334
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:36,458
where I can have a

1335
00:42:36,458 --> 00:42:37,458
life savings from this.

1336
00:42:38,750 --> 00:42:38,958
Right?

1337
00:42:39,041 --> 00:42:40,541
So like, that's the

1338
00:42:40,541 --> 00:42:43,541
mindset you have to be in.

1339
00:42:44,375 --> 00:42:46,500
And it's, I don't know.

1340
00:42:46,500 --> 00:42:47,875
I also think anxiety is

1341
00:42:47,875 --> 00:42:48,958
like good for founders

1342
00:42:49,416 --> 00:42:50,375
as bad as it sounds.

1343
00:42:50,375 --> 00:42:51,875
I think it creates a

1344
00:42:51,875 --> 00:42:53,458
founder who's hyper alert

1345
00:42:54,541 --> 00:42:55,750
and thinking about the

1346
00:42:55,750 --> 00:42:56,916
business all of the time.

1347
00:42:56,916 --> 00:42:58,041
So like that stress,

1348
00:42:59,833 --> 00:43:00,958
it's not good to be in

1349
00:43:00,958 --> 00:43:03,208
that stress your whole time,

1350
00:43:03,208 --> 00:43:04,625
but it does create progress.

1351
00:43:04,875 --> 00:43:06,375
So like people like, you

1352
00:43:06,375 --> 00:43:08,083
know, work-life balance,

1353
00:43:08,083 --> 00:43:09,083
I mean, work-life balance

1354
00:43:09,083 --> 00:43:10,916
is great, but stress is good

1355
00:43:11,791 --> 00:43:12,833
because it creates,

1356
00:43:14,875 --> 00:43:16,583
it creates momentum when

1357
00:43:16,583 --> 00:43:18,208
you're using that stress

1358
00:43:18,208 --> 00:43:20,375
to like move the company forward.

1359
00:43:21,333 --> 00:43:23,083
Yeah, a sense of urgency from

1360
00:43:23,083 --> 00:43:24,166
the court is all of you will,

1361
00:43:24,166 --> 00:43:25,875
but not so much that you can't sleep.

1362
00:43:26,708 --> 00:43:28,125
Perhaps that there's a balance.

1363
00:43:28,625 --> 00:43:29,916
Yeah, I mean, a lot of

1364
00:43:29,916 --> 00:43:30,833
founders don't even sleep.

1365
00:43:31,083 --> 00:43:33,250
I mean, but you know, whatever it is.

1366
00:43:34,541 --> 00:43:37,041
There's a lot of, I mean, but this is me.

1367
00:43:37,041 --> 00:43:39,375
This is like advice for me.

1368
00:43:39,375 --> 00:43:40,666
It's not from other founders.

1369
00:43:40,666 --> 00:43:41,458
I'm just telling you like,

1370
00:43:41,833 --> 00:43:43,250
there's no like perfect map.

1371
00:43:43,791 --> 00:43:44,875
Every founder is different.

1372
00:43:44,875 --> 00:43:46,083
They operate very differently.

1373
00:43:46,458 --> 00:43:48,041
Like everybody

1374
00:43:48,041 --> 00:43:49,458
operates at a different level

1375
00:43:49,708 --> 00:43:50,458
and they build their

1376
00:43:50,458 --> 00:43:51,625
business in a different way

1377
00:43:51,625 --> 00:43:54,208
and their team works different than them.

1378
00:43:54,208 --> 00:43:55,083
And it's like, this is just

1379
00:43:55,083 --> 00:43:56,208
the way that I think about it.

1380
00:43:59,583 --> 00:44:00,541
Yeah, hopefully that--

1381
00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:01,625
Yeah, that does.

1382
00:44:02,250 --> 00:44:02,458
Absolutely.

1383
00:44:03,041 --> 00:44:04,291
You've mentioned having

1384
00:44:04,291 --> 00:44:05,250
a culture of greatness

1385
00:44:05,583 --> 00:44:06,125
in your team.

1386
00:44:06,541 --> 00:44:07,500
I've heard this from so

1387
00:44:07,500 --> 00:44:08,375
many different founders.

1388
00:44:08,375 --> 00:44:09,416
I have a great team.

1389
00:44:09,708 --> 00:44:11,500
We're always striving to be the best,

1390
00:44:11,750 --> 00:44:13,625
like building a culture of greatness.

1391
00:44:13,625 --> 00:44:14,916
Like what does that mean to you?

1392
00:44:15,125 --> 00:44:16,708
And how do you know if you have it?

1393
00:44:28,916 --> 00:44:29,833
I mean, honestly, you

1394
00:44:29,833 --> 00:44:31,250
could peel all of that away

1395
00:44:31,416 --> 00:44:33,416
and say like, do people

1396
00:44:33,416 --> 00:44:34,333
wanna use the product?

1397
00:44:35,958 --> 00:44:37,791
Like greatness is good at all,

1398
00:44:38,208 --> 00:44:40,041
but you need people to use the product.

1399
00:44:40,541 --> 00:44:42,958
Like that's number one.

1400
00:44:44,208 --> 00:44:45,541
But then there's like a

1401
00:44:45,541 --> 00:44:46,583
second order of magnitude,

1402
00:44:46,833 --> 00:44:47,833
which is like a wow

1403
00:44:47,833 --> 00:44:51,083
factor in the product itself.

1404
00:44:51,500 --> 00:44:53,958
Like, you know, teams and products,

1405
00:44:53,958 --> 00:44:55,458
I think the team creates the product,

1406
00:44:55,458 --> 00:44:58,041
but the product itself has to be the

1407
00:44:58,041 --> 00:44:59,250
result of a great team.

1408
00:45:04,125 --> 00:45:05,250
A great team is one

1409
00:45:05,250 --> 00:45:08,125
that works well together

1410
00:45:08,125 --> 00:45:10,333
with limited resources to get

1411
00:45:10,333 --> 00:45:11,708
extraordinary things done

1412
00:45:11,708 --> 00:45:13,375
in a small amount of time.

1413
00:45:14,666 --> 00:45:16,625
Like, right?

1414
00:45:17,333 --> 00:45:18,500
Like, you give in, here's,

1415
00:45:20,000 --> 00:45:22,958
I mean, what Sam Altman

1416
00:45:22,958 --> 00:45:24,416
did, like in the early days,

1417
00:45:24,791 --> 00:45:29,458
like AI, like no one's gonna use that.

1418
00:45:29,458 --> 00:45:30,166
Like, you know, he's gonna use that.

1419
00:45:31,375 --> 00:45:32,583
Like he started this

1420
00:45:32,583 --> 00:45:34,750
in like 2016, you know,

1421
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:35,875
open AI and try to

1422
00:45:35,875 --> 00:45:37,125
figure out how to like create

1423
00:45:37,375 --> 00:45:38,625
an AI product for people.

1424
00:45:40,333 --> 00:45:41,291
They really didn't have

1425
00:45:41,291 --> 00:45:42,541
that many resources, right?

1426
00:45:42,791 --> 00:45:44,625
They really like, if it

1427
00:45:44,625 --> 00:45:46,208
didn't work, it would be dead.

1428
00:45:47,208 --> 00:45:49,666
But the team was savvy enough

1429
00:45:49,666 --> 00:45:51,958
and figured out a lot of ways

1430
00:45:51,958 --> 00:45:52,916
to get this thing off

1431
00:45:52,916 --> 00:45:54,833
the ground before it died.

1432
00:45:59,333 --> 00:46:00,333
Speaking of Sam Altman,

1433
00:46:01,291 --> 00:46:03,125
like you guys were like

1434
00:46:03,125 --> 00:46:06,541
the first health tech company like in YC,

1435
00:46:06,958 --> 00:46:08,375
which is crazy to think

1436
00:46:08,375 --> 00:46:10,416
about in the winter 11 batch.

1437
00:46:11,250 --> 00:46:13,166
So this was in the early days of YC.

1438
00:46:13,458 --> 00:46:14,791
How was that like?

1439
00:46:14,791 --> 00:46:15,875
How has YC changed?

1440
00:46:16,166 --> 00:46:18,291
Like how have things gone since then?

1441
00:46:19,541 --> 00:46:20,500
Yeah, actually, oddly,

1442
00:46:20,875 --> 00:46:22,166
like we were the first

1443
00:46:22,333 --> 00:46:25,750
healthcare company in YC.

1444
00:46:27,333 --> 00:46:28,208
There was another company called

1445
00:46:28,208 --> 00:46:29,500
Comprehend in our batch,

1446
00:46:29,500 --> 00:46:30,666
but we were like the first two real

1447
00:46:30,666 --> 00:46:31,625
healthcare companies

1448
00:46:32,750 --> 00:46:33,666
in Y Combinator.

1449
00:46:34,666 --> 00:46:37,166
And, you know, this is back in 2000,

1450
00:46:37,791 --> 00:46:38,625
I'll reverse a little

1451
00:46:38,625 --> 00:46:41,083
bit, but how we got into YC

1452
00:46:41,083 --> 00:46:42,125
and then I'll talk through like--

1453
00:46:42,166 --> 00:46:42,958
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1454
00:46:43,625 --> 00:46:44,291
A lot of founders out

1455
00:46:44,291 --> 00:46:45,083
there, I'm sure wanna know

1456
00:46:45,250 --> 00:46:46,375
like what the sauce

1457
00:46:46,375 --> 00:46:48,541
is, how to get into YC,

1458
00:46:48,833 --> 00:46:49,583
which is like a lower

1459
00:46:49,583 --> 00:46:50,916
acceptance rate than Harvard.

1460
00:46:51,541 --> 00:46:52,500
How do you manage that?

1461
00:46:52,500 --> 00:46:53,208
Let's start there.

1462
00:46:54,250 --> 00:46:56,541
I mean, the first time we got into YC,

1463
00:46:56,833 --> 00:46:58,541
the first time I got into Y Combinator,

1464
00:46:58,541 --> 00:47:00,916
I think it was, they were

1465
00:47:00,916 --> 00:47:02,291
not who they are today, right?

1466
00:47:02,500 --> 00:47:03,541
Like it wasn't this big

1467
00:47:03,541 --> 00:47:04,916
known brand like Harvard.

1468
00:47:05,125 --> 00:47:05,958
I think it's actually

1469
00:47:05,958 --> 00:47:07,375
a brand now, it's huge.

1470
00:47:07,375 --> 00:47:08,541
It's like everybody knows about Y

1471
00:47:08,541 --> 00:47:10,250
Combinator out there,

1472
00:47:10,250 --> 00:47:15,500
but this is like 2008, 2009, 2010,

1473
00:47:17,208 --> 00:47:18,416
kind of heard about them.

1474
00:47:18,458 --> 00:47:21,416
And part of it was the

1475
00:47:21,416 --> 00:47:23,125
articles online from Paul Graham,

1476
00:47:23,125 --> 00:47:24,583
the founder of Y Combinator.

1477
00:47:24,583 --> 00:47:27,208
So he wrote a bunch of

1478
00:47:27,208 --> 00:47:28,833
articles about entrepreneurship

1479
00:47:29,375 --> 00:47:30,875
and like how to build a startup.

1480
00:47:32,458 --> 00:47:34,416
And, you know, me and my

1481
00:47:34,416 --> 00:47:35,500
co-founder were in New York City

1482
00:47:35,500 --> 00:47:36,375
at the time and we

1483
00:47:36,375 --> 00:47:37,416
were renting two desks.

1484
00:47:38,583 --> 00:47:41,166
And my co-founder was very

1485
00:47:41,166 --> 00:47:43,500
passionate about Y Combinator.

1486
00:47:43,958 --> 00:47:46,666
And, you know, part of

1487
00:47:46,666 --> 00:47:48,583
what I spoke about before

1488
00:47:48,583 --> 00:47:49,458
is like, I'd say one of

1489
00:47:49,458 --> 00:47:50,541
my superpowers was like

1490
00:47:50,541 --> 00:47:52,500
just getting people to like listen to me,

1491
00:47:52,500 --> 00:47:53,416
at least for a few minutes.

1492
00:47:54,833 --> 00:47:56,458
I emailed the founder

1493
00:47:56,458 --> 00:47:57,500
of Y Combinator directly.

1494
00:47:58,000 --> 00:47:58,958
I said, "Hey, we're

1495
00:47:58,958 --> 00:48:00,500
building this company.

1496
00:48:01,125 --> 00:48:03,916
We have traction, it's game changer.

1497
00:48:03,916 --> 00:48:05,083
We would love to talk."

1498
00:48:06,375 --> 00:48:08,291
And he emailed me back and he said,

1499
00:48:08,875 --> 00:48:10,166
"No, I'm in California."

1500
00:48:11,625 --> 00:48:16,291
And, you know, for me, that wasn't a no.

1501
00:48:17,333 --> 00:48:19,541
Like, so I emailed him back and I said,

1502
00:48:20,375 --> 00:48:21,750
"Well, we're working out of this like

1503
00:48:21,750 --> 00:48:22,625
little accelerator."

1504
00:48:24,791 --> 00:48:25,500
It wasn't an accelerator,

1505
00:48:25,500 --> 00:48:26,500
it was like a little like

1506
00:48:27,000 --> 00:48:28,166
startup room and we'd love

1507
00:48:28,166 --> 00:48:29,458
for somebody to come here

1508
00:48:29,458 --> 00:48:30,583
and just like talk to us.

1509
00:48:31,791 --> 00:48:33,333
And what convinced

1510
00:48:33,333 --> 00:48:35,375
them to even take the time

1511
00:48:35,375 --> 00:48:36,166
is I told them that

1512
00:48:36,166 --> 00:48:37,125
there were a few startups

1513
00:48:37,125 --> 00:48:38,291
in this like little building.

1514
00:48:38,333 --> 00:48:40,166
It was three

1515
00:48:40,166 --> 00:48:42,750
companies like just sprinkled.

1516
00:48:42,750 --> 00:48:43,875
That was it, three companies.

1517
00:48:44,250 --> 00:48:45,458
So I made it seem bigger.

1518
00:48:48,375 --> 00:48:50,125
I don't know, maybe, I don't know,

1519
00:48:50,125 --> 00:48:50,666
I don't even know what

1520
00:48:50,666 --> 00:48:51,583
it was, but he said like,

1521
00:48:51,583 --> 00:48:53,250
"I will send Alexis Sohamian.

1522
00:48:54,250 --> 00:48:55,458
He's in the area,

1523
00:48:55,458 --> 00:48:56,416
he'll swing by the office

1524
00:48:56,416 --> 00:48:57,791
and he'll give all the startups a talk."

1525
00:48:59,000 --> 00:49:00,166
And, you know, Alexis

1526
00:49:00,166 --> 00:49:01,833
comes into the building,

1527
00:49:03,208 --> 00:49:04,791
founder of Reddit and he's, you know,

1528
00:49:04,791 --> 00:49:05,583
Reddit wasn't that big,

1529
00:49:05,833 --> 00:49:07,041
Reddit wasn't that big.

1530
00:49:07,125 --> 00:49:08,416
It wasn't like what it is today.

1531
00:49:09,958 --> 00:49:10,791
And, you know, he gave

1532
00:49:10,791 --> 00:49:13,041
us the other two startups

1533
00:49:13,041 --> 00:49:14,583
like a little pitch

1534
00:49:14,583 --> 00:49:17,791
talk and we had enough time

1535
00:49:17,958 --> 00:49:19,916
like Alexis kind of sat there

1536
00:49:19,916 --> 00:49:21,250
with us for probably an hour.

1537
00:49:22,375 --> 00:49:23,458
I just saw like, "Oh, these

1538
00:49:23,458 --> 00:49:24,916
two founders have no funding.

1539
00:49:24,916 --> 00:49:25,291
They've been working

1540
00:49:25,291 --> 00:49:26,458
on this for a few years.

1541
00:49:27,458 --> 00:49:28,125
They are actually

1542
00:49:28,125 --> 00:49:29,500
building something significant."

1543
00:49:30,208 --> 00:49:31,416
We built the first medical

1544
00:49:31,416 --> 00:49:34,166
record on the iPad in history

1545
00:49:35,458 --> 00:49:37,333
and we had users using the product

1546
00:49:39,458 --> 00:49:43,000
and he really got excited.

1547
00:49:43,250 --> 00:49:44,041
Like it was just, he

1548
00:49:44,041 --> 00:49:45,625
saw the passion in us

1549
00:49:45,625 --> 00:49:47,416
because whether Y

1550
00:49:47,416 --> 00:49:48,666
Combinator invest or not,

1551
00:49:48,666 --> 00:49:49,458
I felt like we were

1552
00:49:49,458 --> 00:49:50,750
gonna build the business.

1553
00:49:51,041 --> 00:49:51,791
Like it was gonna happen.

1554
00:49:52,666 --> 00:49:54,208
And he saw that, like he's like, "Okay."

1555
00:49:55,541 --> 00:49:57,875
And for me, I didn't know who,

1556
00:49:58,500 --> 00:49:59,041
I didn't know anything

1557
00:49:59,041 --> 00:50:00,208
about Y Combinator really,

1558
00:50:01,791 --> 00:50:03,166
except these articles, right?

1559
00:50:03,250 --> 00:50:04,166
So I'm like, okay.

1560
00:50:04,166 --> 00:50:06,041
And he's like, "You

1561
00:50:06,041 --> 00:50:07,041
could fly to California

1562
00:50:07,041 --> 00:50:08,125
and you can be a polygram."

1563
00:50:09,625 --> 00:50:10,583
And I'm like, "Okay, I'm

1564
00:50:10,583 --> 00:50:11,916
calculating my life savings."

1565
00:50:12,208 --> 00:50:16,333
And I had, it's like $35,000 in the bank,

1566
00:50:16,791 --> 00:50:17,833
my personal life savings.

1567
00:50:17,833 --> 00:50:19,083
And I'm like, "I'll have to pay for a

1568
00:50:19,083 --> 00:50:22,125
flight to California."

1569
00:50:22,458 --> 00:50:23,375
And I'm like, "That, my

1570
00:50:23,375 --> 00:50:25,583
burn rate will be, you know,

1571
00:50:25,583 --> 00:50:26,333
like my burn rate is

1572
00:50:26,333 --> 00:50:27,458
gonna go up a little bit."

1573
00:50:27,458 --> 00:50:28,000
And I'm like, "I don't

1574
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:29,125
know if this is worth it,

1575
00:50:29,958 --> 00:50:31,375
but I'll take the risk."

1576
00:50:33,250 --> 00:50:34,375
Me and my co-founder spend

1577
00:50:34,375 --> 00:50:35,791
the money, we buy the tickets.

1578
00:50:37,250 --> 00:50:38,333
We first go to this

1579
00:50:38,333 --> 00:50:39,458
thing called startup school,

1580
00:50:41,083 --> 00:50:42,250
because it timed well.

1581
00:50:43,166 --> 00:50:43,625
There was this thing

1582
00:50:43,625 --> 00:50:44,458
called startup school

1583
00:50:44,833 --> 00:50:47,833
and it was really good.

1584
00:50:47,833 --> 00:50:48,875
I was like blown away.

1585
00:50:49,125 --> 00:50:50,125
I was like, "Oh my God,

1586
00:50:50,583 --> 00:50:52,291
there's other people like us."

1587
00:50:52,958 --> 00:50:54,291
Like I didn't talk to entrepreneurs.

1588
00:50:54,541 --> 00:50:55,583
We didn't talk to people.

1589
00:50:55,916 --> 00:50:56,500
There was no

1590
00:50:56,500 --> 00:50:58,625
entrepreneur community like that.

1591
00:50:59,083 --> 00:51:00,416
Like it was just a couple of people

1592
00:51:01,666 --> 00:51:03,041
like hanging out and

1593
00:51:03,041 --> 00:51:04,166
building weird companies.

1594
00:51:04,583 --> 00:51:05,666
And essentially people

1595
00:51:05,666 --> 00:51:06,625
thought we were jobless,

1596
00:51:06,791 --> 00:51:08,083
like jobs.

1597
00:51:09,666 --> 00:51:11,208
Those guys, they don't have a job.

1598
00:51:11,625 --> 00:51:12,500
What are these guys doing?

1599
00:51:12,500 --> 00:51:14,041
Like how did you know you weren't crazy

1600
00:51:14,166 --> 00:51:15,333
without like seeing other

1601
00:51:15,333 --> 00:51:17,250
people doing things like you?

1602
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:21,000
It's just, this is

1603
00:51:21,000 --> 00:51:22,958
something you trust in your gut.

1604
00:51:23,333 --> 00:51:24,416
Like it's all gut based.

1605
00:51:25,666 --> 00:51:27,458
Like you self-reflect, right?

1606
00:51:27,458 --> 00:51:29,625
You look at where people are

1607
00:51:29,708 --> 00:51:31,458
and are they truly happy in life

1608
00:51:31,458 --> 00:51:33,458
and are they liking what they're doing?

1609
00:51:35,208 --> 00:51:35,625
I don't think

1610
00:51:35,625 --> 00:51:37,000
entrepreneurship is for everyone.

1611
00:51:37,875 --> 00:51:38,083
Right.

1612
00:51:40,208 --> 00:51:41,958
What they were doing wasn't for me.

1613
00:51:41,958 --> 00:51:44,083
It was like, go get a job,

1614
00:51:44,541 --> 00:51:46,625
work for a large company,

1615
00:51:48,583 --> 00:51:52,750
get a salary, find a

1616
00:51:52,750 --> 00:51:54,416
partner, get a mortgage.

1617
00:51:56,250 --> 00:51:57,375
I was running that through my head

1618
00:51:57,375 --> 00:51:58,666
but like that doesn't sound fun.

1619
00:51:59,291 --> 00:51:59,958
That's not you.

1620
00:52:00,000 --> 00:52:00,791
It sounds like a burden.

1621
00:52:01,916 --> 00:52:02,708
I'm like, I need to

1622
00:52:02,708 --> 00:52:03,875
have fun while I'm working.

1623
00:52:04,083 --> 00:52:04,666
Like I want to do

1624
00:52:04,666 --> 00:52:05,958
something that's impactful.

1625
00:52:07,416 --> 00:52:09,416
And I met all these

1626
00:52:09,416 --> 00:52:10,708
people at the startup school.

1627
00:52:10,708 --> 00:52:12,041
I'm like, oh my God, they're like me.

1628
00:52:12,041 --> 00:52:14,916
They're all like thinking the same way

1629
00:52:14,916 --> 00:52:17,083
and they want to like do something unique

1630
00:52:17,083 --> 00:52:18,791
and they're passionate.

1631
00:52:19,083 --> 00:52:20,416
They want to like build something.

1632
00:52:20,416 --> 00:52:21,625
And I'm like, this

1633
00:52:21,625 --> 00:52:23,458
investor seems like they're good.

1634
00:52:24,791 --> 00:52:25,750
Other investors I met

1635
00:52:25,750 --> 00:52:28,750
were, they didn't have that.

1636
00:52:28,791 --> 00:52:30,875
There were a few that I

1637
00:52:30,875 --> 00:52:32,333
thought were smart people

1638
00:52:32,333 --> 00:52:35,541
but they didn't have

1639
00:52:35,541 --> 00:52:36,833
this energy in this room

1640
00:52:36,833 --> 00:52:38,291
from all these passionate founders.

1641
00:52:39,375 --> 00:52:40,791
And then I'm like, we have to

1642
00:52:40,791 --> 00:52:43,333
like pitch this really well.

1643
00:52:44,583 --> 00:52:45,958
So I'm like, I talked to

1644
00:52:45,958 --> 00:52:47,333
my co-founder and I'm like,

1645
00:52:47,333 --> 00:52:48,666
hey, I really, let's

1646
00:52:48,666 --> 00:52:49,500
get them as an investor.

1647
00:52:50,166 --> 00:52:51,500
I kind of went all in and I'm like,

1648
00:52:51,708 --> 00:52:52,416
we're going to get them.

1649
00:52:53,291 --> 00:52:55,958
And I think my co-founder was really,

1650
00:52:56,541 --> 00:52:57,958
we worked well together in this way.

1651
00:52:57,958 --> 00:52:58,833
We locked ourselves in a

1652
00:52:58,833 --> 00:52:59,875
room for like 10 hours.

1653
00:53:00,750 --> 00:53:01,875
So we practiced a pitch

1654
00:53:02,208 --> 00:53:02,708
when we were going to

1655
00:53:02,708 --> 00:53:03,875
meet Paul Graham in person.

1656
00:53:06,541 --> 00:53:10,958
And we go to Y

1657
00:53:10,958 --> 00:53:12,041
Combinator or Mountain View,

1658
00:53:12,041 --> 00:53:15,000
the little building and walk in.

1659
00:53:15,000 --> 00:53:15,791
And there's a line of all

1660
00:53:15,791 --> 00:53:16,750
these terrified founders

1661
00:53:16,750 --> 00:53:18,083
like that are going to pitch this guy

1662
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:19,458
to see if they can

1663
00:53:19,458 --> 00:53:20,708
get investment from him.

1664
00:53:22,125 --> 00:53:23,416
And we go into the room

1665
00:53:23,416 --> 00:53:26,333
and we kind of just went

1666
00:53:26,416 --> 00:53:28,458
into that pitch that we pitched 10 hours.

1667
00:53:28,458 --> 00:53:29,458
We just went straight

1668
00:53:29,458 --> 00:53:31,875
into it and it was rehearsed.

1669
00:53:31,875 --> 00:53:34,875
And well, first, and I

1670
00:53:34,875 --> 00:53:37,708
thought we didn't get them

1671
00:53:37,708 --> 00:53:38,291
as an investor

1672
00:53:38,291 --> 00:53:39,000
because they're like, okay,

1673
00:53:39,000 --> 00:53:39,791
thank you so much.

1674
00:53:39,875 --> 00:53:41,875
Next, it was like a casting call.

1675
00:53:42,125 --> 00:53:42,666
Oh my gosh.

1676
00:53:42,916 --> 00:53:43,916
You can leave the room now.

1677
00:53:43,916 --> 00:53:45,625
Like it was, thank you guys so much.

1678
00:53:45,625 --> 00:53:46,208
We'll be in touch.

1679
00:53:46,875 --> 00:53:49,083
Oh man, that's not what you want to hear.

1680
00:53:49,708 --> 00:53:50,875
Well, it's not our pitch.

1681
00:53:51,416 --> 00:53:52,583
It was a line of people.

1682
00:53:52,833 --> 00:53:54,041
Granted, this is how it was done.

1683
00:53:54,041 --> 00:53:55,000
It was like a line of

1684
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:56,000
people coming in and out.

1685
00:53:56,250 --> 00:53:58,916
But I just was like, okay,

1686
00:53:59,166 --> 00:54:00,458
we'll go back to New York City

1687
00:54:00,458 --> 00:54:01,791
and we'll build it and

1688
00:54:01,791 --> 00:54:02,833
they won't be our investor.

1689
00:54:02,833 --> 00:54:03,250
That was just my

1690
00:54:03,250 --> 00:54:04,625
thinking that night, that day.

1691
00:54:06,083 --> 00:54:08,125
And that night, Paul

1692
00:54:08,125 --> 00:54:09,708
Graham calls us and says,

1693
00:54:09,708 --> 00:54:13,458
hey, you want in or are you in?

1694
00:54:13,958 --> 00:54:15,041
And me and my

1695
00:54:15,041 --> 00:54:16,166
co-founder are on the phone.

1696
00:54:17,625 --> 00:54:18,833
It's like 8 p.m., 9

1697
00:54:18,833 --> 00:54:20,125
p.m. and late at night.

1698
00:54:20,916 --> 00:54:22,625
And I'm like, yes.

1699
00:54:23,250 --> 00:54:23,666
I look at my

1700
00:54:23,666 --> 00:54:24,500
co-founder and he's like, yes.

1701
00:54:24,708 --> 00:54:27,000
I was making sure he was aligned with it

1702
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,750
and we both said yes to it.

1703
00:54:33,083 --> 00:54:33,583
He's like, all right,

1704
00:54:33,583 --> 00:54:34,916
you're gonna come to California

1705
00:54:34,916 --> 00:54:36,958
for three months and we're gonna give you

1706
00:54:37,291 --> 00:54:38,000
a little bit of money

1707
00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:39,875
and we'll just put you

1708
00:54:39,875 --> 00:54:40,458
through our program.

1709
00:54:40,875 --> 00:54:41,750
And I'm like, that sounds great.

1710
00:54:45,333 --> 00:54:47,208
And then you were asking about partners

1711
00:54:47,208 --> 00:54:48,375
to get to your first question.

1712
00:54:49,625 --> 00:54:51,708
So Paul Graham, the founder of Y

1713
00:54:51,708 --> 00:54:52,833
Combinator back then

1714
00:54:52,958 --> 00:54:53,958
was very involved.

1715
00:54:54,750 --> 00:54:56,125
Jessica Livingston and Paul

1716
00:54:56,125 --> 00:54:57,875
Graham were hugely involved.

1717
00:54:58,208 --> 00:54:59,666
Paul Bucheit, hugely involved.

1718
00:55:00,833 --> 00:55:02,291
Gary Tan was just hired in.

1719
00:55:03,875 --> 00:55:05,625
Sam Altman was just hired in.

1720
00:55:06,291 --> 00:55:07,250
So those are the

1721
00:55:07,250 --> 00:55:08,541
partners that we worked with.

1722
00:55:09,500 --> 00:55:10,958
Those are the, that was the partners.

1723
00:55:11,875 --> 00:55:12,375
Those are the primary

1724
00:55:12,375 --> 00:55:13,583
people we went to for help

1725
00:55:14,500 --> 00:55:15,250
in the early days.

1726
00:55:16,708 --> 00:55:17,583
So we got into Y

1727
00:55:17,583 --> 00:55:21,500
Combinator and it felt like college

1728
00:55:21,541 --> 00:55:25,458
because it was just an energy of hope.

1729
00:55:26,458 --> 00:55:27,916
Like we're gonna do something big

1730
00:55:28,041 --> 00:55:29,958
and all work well together.

1731
00:55:33,125 --> 00:55:38,208
I remember, you know, Paul

1732
00:55:38,208 --> 00:55:39,291
Graham just would get his hands

1733
00:55:39,291 --> 00:55:40,458
dirty and help us with

1734
00:55:40,458 --> 00:55:41,791
everything, which was great.

1735
00:55:42,083 --> 00:55:42,875
So it was a really

1736
00:55:42,875 --> 00:55:47,833
unscalable way of doing it.

1737
00:55:47,833 --> 00:55:48,958
Doing things that don't scale,

1738
00:55:49,541 --> 00:55:50,791
don't putting right there, right?

1739
00:55:51,625 --> 00:55:53,708
Yeah, he was literally helping us

1740
00:55:53,708 --> 00:55:54,791
whenever we asked for help.

1741
00:55:55,208 --> 00:55:59,250
And back then they, you

1742
00:55:59,250 --> 00:56:00,833
could just book as much time

1743
00:56:00,833 --> 00:56:01,958
with Paul Graham as you could.

1744
00:56:02,208 --> 00:56:03,375
And I think we booked, I

1745
00:56:03,375 --> 00:56:07,458
don't know, like 50 hours.

1746
00:56:08,000 --> 00:56:09,250
Maybe not 50, like, but a

1747
00:56:09,250 --> 00:56:11,916
lot of time with Paul Graham

1748
00:56:11,916 --> 00:56:13,000
and he would just, we

1749
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:13,750
would do this thing.

1750
00:56:13,750 --> 00:56:14,791
Like it was like a walk.

1751
00:56:14,791 --> 00:56:16,250
We would basically go for like a walk

1752
00:56:16,583 --> 00:56:19,541
around the Y Combinator area and just

1753
00:56:19,541 --> 00:56:20,750
like kind of just talk.

1754
00:56:22,041 --> 00:56:23,083
About the business and

1755
00:56:23,083 --> 00:56:24,833
kind of get his thoughts and,

1756
00:56:25,166 --> 00:56:27,625
you know, Sam Altman we

1757
00:56:27,625 --> 00:56:29,166
would talk to and then Gary.

1758
00:56:30,500 --> 00:56:31,250
We always went to Gary

1759
00:56:31,250 --> 00:56:32,500
for design questions.

1760
00:56:32,750 --> 00:56:34,125
I'd always like ask him about like,

1761
00:56:34,125 --> 00:56:35,458
what about, what do you think about this?

1762
00:56:35,458 --> 00:56:36,458
What are we doing there?

1763
00:56:38,166 --> 00:56:39,583
But, you know, they were pretty honest.

1764
00:56:39,583 --> 00:56:39,958
They were pretty

1765
00:56:39,958 --> 00:56:42,041
honest, but really, really,

1766
00:56:42,250 --> 00:56:42,875
thinking about them as

1767
00:56:42,875 --> 00:56:44,125
they were just so helpful

1768
00:56:44,583 --> 00:56:45,458
in any way possible

1769
00:56:45,458 --> 00:56:48,041
that it left a good taste.

1770
00:56:48,458 --> 00:56:49,708
And it just, it was just

1771
00:56:49,708 --> 00:56:50,833
always a good experience.

1772
00:56:51,041 --> 00:56:53,333
And like, they would just align with us.

1773
00:56:54,750 --> 00:56:55,583
Yeah, working with PG

1774
00:56:55,583 --> 00:56:57,333
directly must have been amazing.

1775
00:56:57,333 --> 00:56:58,000
Like having all that

1776
00:56:58,000 --> 00:56:59,041
space and time with him,

1777
00:56:59,291 --> 00:57:00,708
like he's such a legend.

1778
00:57:01,541 --> 00:57:03,458
And yeah, it sounds like

1779
00:57:03,458 --> 00:57:05,000
you guys got a lot out of YC.

1780
00:57:05,416 --> 00:57:06,250
First time around, will you

1781
00:57:06,250 --> 00:57:07,375
say the second time around,

1782
00:57:07,375 --> 00:57:08,750
you guys got a lot out of it as well?

1783
00:57:09,333 --> 00:57:11,166
Was, it was quite different,

1784
00:57:11,166 --> 00:57:12,291
I imagine, the second time.

1785
00:57:13,583 --> 00:57:14,583
Well, the first time

1786
00:57:14,583 --> 00:57:15,791
there wasn't really software.

1787
00:57:16,250 --> 00:57:17,791
Like there was a little bit of software.

1788
00:57:19,000 --> 00:57:20,875
So like when we did demo day,

1789
00:57:22,500 --> 00:57:24,166
it was literally in a room with people.

1790
00:57:25,208 --> 00:57:26,416
And then you have to run up to them

1791
00:57:26,416 --> 00:57:27,375
to get their business card.

1792
00:57:29,375 --> 00:57:31,666
So like, you know, the first time around

1793
00:57:31,666 --> 00:57:34,291
with Y Combinator, I remember just say,

1794
00:57:34,291 --> 00:57:36,291
I remember thinking, I'm gonna stay here

1795
00:57:37,125 --> 00:57:38,666
longer than any founder in this room

1796
00:57:38,666 --> 00:57:39,250
and get as many

1797
00:57:39,250 --> 00:57:41,250
business cards as, oh my gosh.

1798
00:57:41,833 --> 00:57:42,791
And I literally stayed

1799
00:57:42,791 --> 00:57:43,958
there till like, I don't know,

1800
00:57:43,958 --> 00:57:46,250
it was like 1 a, it was like 11 or 1 a.m.

1801
00:57:46,250 --> 00:57:47,041
It was really late.

1802
00:57:47,041 --> 00:57:47,666
And I'm just like, all

1803
00:57:47,666 --> 00:57:48,416
right, all the other founders

1804
00:57:48,625 --> 00:57:50,750
are gone, there's one investor left.

1805
00:57:51,166 --> 00:57:52,708
I'm gonna go talk to him.

1806
00:57:53,291 --> 00:57:55,208
And the guy, he did invest.

1807
00:57:55,208 --> 00:57:56,500
He's like, you're the last founder here.

1808
00:57:56,500 --> 00:57:57,083
I'm gonna invest.

1809
00:57:57,291 --> 00:57:57,708
And he did.

1810
00:57:58,583 --> 00:57:59,541
And I'm like, oh my God,

1811
00:57:59,541 --> 00:58:00,708
that's such strange reasoning,

1812
00:58:00,708 --> 00:58:01,333
but that's great.

1813
00:58:03,625 --> 00:58:03,958
That's crazy.

1814
00:58:05,208 --> 00:58:06,916
And that was like really, yeah.

1815
00:58:07,458 --> 00:58:09,458
So sometimes it's just last man standing.

1816
00:58:11,750 --> 00:58:12,458
But you know, I had a

1817
00:58:12,458 --> 00:58:13,500
stack of business cards

1818
00:58:13,500 --> 00:58:15,375
and you had to like go through them.

1819
00:58:16,166 --> 00:58:17,041
So you just like look

1820
00:58:17,041 --> 00:58:17,958
at this phone number

1821
00:58:18,125 --> 00:58:18,583
and you're gonna be like, all right,

1822
00:58:18,583 --> 00:58:20,791
I'm gonna call this guy tomorrow.

1823
00:58:21,625 --> 00:58:22,541
Talk about old school.

1824
00:58:23,125 --> 00:58:25,041
So that's old YC.

1825
00:58:25,291 --> 00:58:25,791
That was like, it

1826
00:58:25,791 --> 00:58:27,416
was, he would, you know,

1827
00:58:28,125 --> 00:58:30,583
the YC partners, you know, Jessica, Paul,

1828
00:58:31,041 --> 00:58:32,125
all the other partners

1829
00:58:32,125 --> 00:58:33,125
would convince the investors

1830
00:58:33,125 --> 00:58:35,958
to come to YC, sit in a room for,

1831
00:58:36,958 --> 00:58:40,500
it was like hours, hours of their time.

1832
00:58:42,000 --> 00:58:43,875
They had like heavy hitters like,

1833
00:58:45,375 --> 00:58:46,541
Hermont, you know.

1834
00:58:47,666 --> 00:58:48,958
I don't know if you, you know, Hermont

1835
00:58:48,958 --> 00:58:49,666
from General Catalyst.

1836
00:58:49,958 --> 00:58:51,250
He runs all of General Catalyst.

1837
00:58:51,250 --> 00:58:52,458
So he was there.

1838
00:58:53,166 --> 00:58:53,916
All these great

1839
00:58:53,916 --> 00:58:55,666
investors were just in this room,

1840
00:58:55,916 --> 00:58:57,958
like amazing people like Sequoia.

1841
00:58:59,125 --> 00:59:00,333
And they were just all sitting there

1842
00:59:00,333 --> 00:59:01,250
like looking at the

1843
00:59:01,250 --> 00:59:03,291
founders, pitch one by one.

1844
00:59:03,291 --> 00:59:04,875
So the stress level was

1845
00:59:04,875 --> 00:59:08,000
also higher, way higher.

1846
00:59:08,916 --> 00:59:11,916
In the sense like if

1847
00:59:11,916 --> 00:59:13,625
you say something wrong,

1848
00:59:16,583 --> 00:59:17,791
in a room full of these

1849
00:59:17,791 --> 00:59:19,041
people staring at you,

1850
00:59:19,041 --> 00:59:21,000
I just, the pressure was just intense.

1851
00:59:22,375 --> 00:59:23,916
I mean, you went through YC this time.

1852
00:59:23,916 --> 00:59:24,916
I don't know what you

1853
00:59:24,916 --> 00:59:26,916
thought about like the demo,

1854
00:59:26,916 --> 00:59:28,166
you know, Devo Day Online.

1855
00:59:28,500 --> 00:59:30,333
It's insane, the weight of the moment.

1856
00:59:30,916 --> 00:59:33,125
We were a COVID batch, winter 21.

1857
00:59:33,625 --> 00:59:34,208
So it was a little

1858
00:59:34,208 --> 00:59:36,458
different, but still like had to,

1859
00:59:36,583 --> 00:59:37,083
you know, perform

1860
00:59:37,083 --> 00:59:39,375
live and had to be ready.

1861
00:59:40,208 --> 00:59:41,958
And thankfully we had software.

1862
00:59:42,416 --> 00:59:44,000
We didn't have to deal with

1863
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:45,166
any physical business cards.

1864
00:59:46,166 --> 00:59:47,083
So yeah, it's

1865
00:59:47,083 --> 00:59:48,375
definitely changed quite a bit

1866
00:59:48,541 --> 00:59:49,958
since winter 11.

1867
00:59:50,958 --> 00:59:51,166
Yeah.

1868
00:59:51,750 --> 00:59:53,958
I noticed that when you

1869
00:59:53,958 --> 00:59:55,708
talk about the hard times

1870
00:59:56,250 --> 00:59:57,333
in the startup journey,

1871
00:59:57,916 --> 00:59:59,541
you have such certainty

1872
01:00:00,083 --> 01:00:02,666
like in your like

1873
01:00:02,666 --> 01:00:04,083
destiny of like success.

1874
01:00:04,833 --> 01:00:07,083
Like how do you come about this mindset

1875
01:00:07,625 --> 01:00:10,125
where like you like, is it like a form

1876
01:00:10,125 --> 01:00:11,291
of manifestation you have?

1877
01:00:11,791 --> 01:00:12,625
Like what is it that

1878
01:00:12,625 --> 01:00:14,333
gives you such high conviction

1879
01:00:14,916 --> 01:00:15,666
that you are going to

1880
01:00:15,666 --> 01:00:16,583
persevere and succeed

1881
01:00:16,583 --> 01:00:18,375
in like what you set out to do?

1882
01:00:20,958 --> 01:00:21,375
I mean.

1883
01:00:26,083 --> 01:00:27,041
What's the energy source?

1884
01:00:27,458 --> 01:00:29,083
Like how do other founders

1885
01:00:29,083 --> 01:00:30,250
develop such high conviction

1886
01:00:30,250 --> 01:00:31,625
in themselves, like self

1887
01:00:31,625 --> 01:00:33,083
faith and like believing

1888
01:00:33,291 --> 01:00:33,958
in their destiny and

1889
01:00:33,958 --> 01:00:34,958
their amazing outcome

1890
01:00:34,958 --> 01:00:35,958
that they could create for themselves?

1891
01:00:37,916 --> 01:00:38,750
I mean, I just think

1892
01:00:38,750 --> 01:00:40,125
it's taking it day by day

1893
01:00:40,125 --> 01:00:41,583
and not overwhelming yourself.

1894
01:00:41,833 --> 01:00:43,666
Like how do I create the next Nvidia?

1895
01:00:44,333 --> 01:00:46,458
Like if you do that, you're like,

1896
01:00:47,875 --> 01:00:48,750
you're kind of

1897
01:00:48,750 --> 01:00:50,500
psychologically like wasted.

1898
01:00:50,958 --> 01:00:52,500
You're just like, it's not

1899
01:00:52,500 --> 01:00:53,791
a good mindset to say like,

1900
01:00:53,791 --> 01:00:55,250
I'm gonna build the next Nvidia.

1901
01:00:55,625 --> 01:00:57,083
Like if you run around

1902
01:00:57,083 --> 01:00:58,166
saying that to yourself,

1903
01:01:00,125 --> 01:01:02,750
you feel like a liar, right?

1904
01:01:03,791 --> 01:01:07,416
And it's what can I do today?

1905
01:01:07,416 --> 01:01:08,416
I'm gonna go back to this to

1906
01:01:08,416 --> 01:01:09,500
like make the company better

1907
01:01:09,500 --> 01:01:10,333
for tomorrow.

1908
01:01:11,333 --> 01:01:13,041
And like, it's a, I

1909
01:01:13,041 --> 01:01:14,041
view it as like creating,

1910
01:01:14,041 --> 01:01:14,625
like you ever see

1911
01:01:14,625 --> 01:01:15,875
those like beautiful swords

1912
01:01:16,291 --> 01:01:17,541
or like whatever it

1913
01:01:17,541 --> 01:01:18,708
is, like a beautiful car.

1914
01:01:18,708 --> 01:01:20,916
It's like these things

1915
01:01:20,916 --> 01:01:22,166
are not made in a day.

1916
01:01:22,166 --> 01:01:23,125
And the reality is like,

1917
01:01:23,125 --> 01:01:25,750
you have to like understand,

1918
01:01:25,958 --> 01:01:30,083
you have to take it day by day.

1919
01:01:30,416 --> 01:01:31,750
Like if you're thinking

1920
01:01:31,750 --> 01:01:33,125
you're gonna like create,

1921
01:01:36,166 --> 01:01:39,583
I don't know, like Tesla in a day,

1922
01:01:39,583 --> 01:01:40,333
it's like you're

1923
01:01:40,333 --> 01:01:41,500
gonna psych yourself out.

1924
01:01:42,708 --> 01:01:44,458
I think for me, it's just a process.

1925
01:01:44,750 --> 01:01:46,166
And you know, I have

1926
01:01:46,166 --> 01:01:46,958
my days where I'm like,

1927
01:01:46,958 --> 01:01:47,625
what am I doing?

1928
01:01:47,916 --> 01:01:48,916
But at the same time,

1929
01:01:49,208 --> 01:01:51,541
like what's the inverse?

1930
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:56,750
Like what's on the other side of that?

1931
01:01:56,875 --> 01:02:00,166
Like go work for someone else?

1932
01:02:00,875 --> 01:02:01,916
Like, does that make sense?

1933
01:02:02,291 --> 01:02:04,250
Like, yeah, totally, totally.

1934
01:02:04,250 --> 01:02:05,250
I think that will

1935
01:02:05,250 --> 01:02:06,375
resonate with a lot of founders.

1936
01:02:06,666 --> 01:02:08,458
Like they don't see

1937
01:02:08,458 --> 01:02:10,250
themselves working for somebody else.

1938
01:02:11,958 --> 01:02:12,166
Right.

1939
01:02:12,833 --> 01:02:14,500
Especially the best ones.

1940
01:02:15,416 --> 01:02:17,291
I mean, it's one of

1941
01:02:17,291 --> 01:02:18,458
those things are, you know,

1942
01:02:18,833 --> 01:02:21,125
you're gonna die, I'm

1943
01:02:21,125 --> 01:02:22,000
gonna go back to this.

1944
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,458
Like you're going to die.

1945
01:02:23,458 --> 01:02:24,416
Like we're all gonna like

1946
01:02:24,416 --> 01:02:26,458
not be here in a hundred years.

1947
01:02:26,791 --> 01:02:33,333
So like, there's also

1948
01:02:33,333 --> 01:02:34,541
different tolerance levels.

1949
01:02:34,833 --> 01:02:36,750
Like of, you know, if you have a family

1950
01:02:36,750 --> 01:02:38,250
and you have like six kids

1951
01:02:38,250 --> 01:02:39,666
and you have a really great

1952
01:02:40,833 --> 01:02:41,750
family and you have a

1953
01:02:41,750 --> 01:02:45,041
mortgage, like maybe don't do it.

1954
01:02:46,083 --> 01:02:47,458
Like there's moments

1955
01:02:47,458 --> 01:02:48,583
in your life where like

1956
01:02:48,583 --> 01:02:51,500
you gather like a family,

1957
01:02:51,791 --> 01:02:53,625
like that's a scenario where like

1958
01:02:55,791 --> 01:02:56,541
maybe don't do it.

1959
01:02:56,750 --> 01:02:57,750
Like I hate to say it.

1960
01:02:57,750 --> 01:02:59,416
It's like, it's the risk is really high.

1961
01:02:59,416 --> 01:03:01,000
Like the failure rate is really high.

1962
01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:01,208
Yeah.

1963
01:03:01,875 --> 01:03:07,125
But you know, if you are determined

1964
01:03:07,458 --> 01:03:08,041
and you feel

1965
01:03:08,041 --> 01:03:11,208
passionate, like, I don't know,

1966
01:03:11,416 --> 01:03:13,875
just not everyone in the

1967
01:03:13,875 --> 01:03:15,000
world is fortunate enough

1968
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:16,625
to even be able to do what we're doing.

1969
01:03:16,875 --> 01:03:18,416
Like what you're doing,

1970
01:03:18,416 --> 01:03:19,291
Daniel, with your, you know,

1971
01:03:19,291 --> 01:03:20,125
your startup, like

1972
01:03:20,125 --> 01:03:21,250
you're really fortunate

1973
01:03:21,833 --> 01:03:22,625
like to be able to

1974
01:03:22,625 --> 01:03:24,750
build that, like look at it

1975
01:03:24,750 --> 01:03:25,791
from that perspective

1976
01:03:25,791 --> 01:03:27,833
sometimes where it sucks.

1977
01:03:28,250 --> 01:03:29,375
But like, you know,

1978
01:03:29,375 --> 01:03:30,291
other parts of the world,

1979
01:03:30,291 --> 01:03:31,208
they don't even have

1980
01:03:31,208 --> 01:03:32,708
this opportunity, you know?

1981
01:03:33,458 --> 01:03:37,250
So like why not try?

1982
01:03:40,375 --> 01:03:41,041
I don't know.

1983
01:03:41,333 --> 01:03:42,166
I know I'm totally on

1984
01:03:42,166 --> 01:03:43,333
the same page and like,

1985
01:03:43,333 --> 01:03:44,333
I call my parents like

1986
01:03:44,333 --> 01:03:45,333
every two or three weeks

1987
01:03:45,333 --> 01:03:46,916
and I like thank them

1988
01:03:46,916 --> 01:03:47,958
for immigrating to America.

1989
01:03:48,208 --> 01:03:49,625
They came as like a

1990
01:03:49,625 --> 01:03:51,000
Jewish refugees from Ukraine

1991
01:03:51,583 --> 01:03:53,333
and like, I'm like so

1992
01:03:53,333 --> 01:03:54,625
grateful, especially like

1993
01:03:55,458 --> 01:03:57,875
as I'm traveling and I see

1994
01:03:57,875 --> 01:04:00,583
like just how much we have here

1995
01:04:00,583 --> 01:04:00,958
in terms of

1996
01:04:00,958 --> 01:04:03,166
opportunity, but also like the way

1997
01:04:03,166 --> 01:04:04,291
that the culture here

1998
01:04:04,291 --> 01:04:05,416
nurtures entrepreneurship,

1999
01:04:05,833 --> 01:04:07,291
like individualism and

2000
01:04:07,291 --> 01:04:09,833
ambition and you know,

2001
01:04:10,208 --> 01:04:11,333
that it's incredible.

2002
01:04:11,583 --> 01:04:12,250
And I'm like so

2003
01:04:12,250 --> 01:04:14,000
grateful to be here in the US

2004
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:17,916
and like also when it comes to timing,

2005
01:04:18,291 --> 01:04:19,666
like I started this

2006
01:04:19,666 --> 01:04:20,666
company like five years ago

2007
01:04:20,750 --> 01:04:21,291
when I was 20.

2008
01:04:21,541 --> 01:04:22,375
So like I have the luxury

2009
01:04:22,375 --> 01:04:23,750
of not having a wife and kids

2010
01:04:23,750 --> 01:04:25,833
and mortgages and huge bills.

2011
01:04:26,583 --> 01:04:28,583
So yeah, timing I think is huge.

2012
01:04:28,916 --> 01:04:31,083
Like how, what do you say

2013
01:04:31,083 --> 01:04:32,000
to the founders out there

2014
01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:33,333
that have a lot to

2015
01:04:33,333 --> 01:04:35,666
lose, have like a spouse

2016
01:04:35,666 --> 01:04:36,375
that's depending on

2017
01:04:36,375 --> 01:04:38,041
them, debt or mortgages,

2018
01:04:38,375 --> 01:04:40,250
kids like who really

2019
01:04:40,250 --> 01:04:43,000
don't know if they can afford

2020
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:44,416
to take the risk, like,

2021
01:04:44,750 --> 01:04:46,333
and they want to do it,

2022
01:04:46,625 --> 01:04:48,000
but like how can they

2023
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:49,833
pull off that balancing act?

2024
01:04:49,875 --> 01:04:50,958
Do you have any words

2025
01:04:50,958 --> 01:04:51,958
of inspiration for them

2026
01:04:51,958 --> 01:04:53,333
other than maybe don't?

2027
01:04:58,541 --> 01:04:59,708
It isn't for everybody.

2028
01:04:59,750 --> 01:05:00,625
I agree with you there,

2029
01:05:00,625 --> 01:05:01,750
but for those who have

2030
01:05:01,750 --> 01:05:03,333
the determination to do it anyways,

2031
01:05:03,916 --> 01:05:04,708
like what would you tell them?

2032
01:05:05,500 --> 01:05:07,083
I mean, it's risk versus reward.

2033
01:05:07,708 --> 01:05:10,708
Like if you work on this business,

2034
01:05:10,958 --> 01:05:12,333
you may not have a life savings.

2035
01:05:12,833 --> 01:05:14,333
You may work till you're 90.

2036
01:05:15,000 --> 01:05:16,625
Like if it fails, that's what I mean.

2037
01:05:16,666 --> 01:05:17,291
Worst case scenario.

2038
01:05:17,375 --> 01:05:18,708
Say you work on it 10 years,

2039
01:05:18,750 --> 01:05:20,291
say you're 45 and you

2040
01:05:20,291 --> 01:05:21,458
work on it and you're 55

2041
01:05:21,458 --> 01:05:22,625
and you don't have a life savings,

2042
01:05:25,916 --> 01:05:27,166
you're gonna work till you're 90.

2043
01:05:27,166 --> 01:05:30,000
And it's a risk versus reward game

2044
01:05:30,708 --> 01:05:33,583
for everyone involved, right?

2045
01:05:34,500 --> 01:05:35,375
Like, and I think

2046
01:05:35,375 --> 01:05:39,666
everybody's situation is different.

2047
01:05:40,583 --> 01:05:42,125
If you have a sick family member

2048
01:05:43,250 --> 01:05:44,416
and you need to support them,

2049
01:05:45,041 --> 01:05:48,791
it may not be a good time.

2050
01:05:49,250 --> 01:05:51,125
If you have like, you

2051
01:05:51,125 --> 01:05:52,416
know, really young kids

2052
01:05:52,416 --> 01:05:53,916
and like you just feel

2053
01:05:53,916 --> 01:05:55,083
like you don't have the time

2054
01:05:55,083 --> 01:05:56,166
and your guts telling

2055
01:05:56,166 --> 01:05:57,375
you don't have the time,

2056
01:05:58,875 --> 01:06:00,000
don't do it.

2057
01:06:03,375 --> 01:06:08,750
You know, it's funny, have you ever heard

2058
01:06:08,750 --> 01:06:09,916
of the musician Bonnie there?

2059
01:06:10,750 --> 01:06:11,125
I have not.

2060
01:06:11,958 --> 01:06:12,166
Okay.

2061
01:06:14,250 --> 01:06:15,125
He's just one of

2062
01:06:15,125 --> 01:06:16,250
these musicians out there.

2063
01:06:16,250 --> 01:06:17,625
He just came out with an album yesterday

2064
01:06:18,000 --> 01:06:19,958
and his very first album,

2065
01:06:19,958 --> 01:06:21,416
he locked himself in a cabin

2066
01:06:23,083 --> 01:06:25,041
in Wisconsin in the middle of nowhere

2067
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:27,333
to create this first album.

2068
01:06:27,333 --> 01:06:27,916
And it was really, it

2069
01:06:27,916 --> 01:06:29,000
was a really good album.

2070
01:06:30,500 --> 01:06:32,541
But I'm like, he had

2071
01:06:32,541 --> 01:06:34,875
the time and the clearness

2072
01:06:35,083 --> 01:06:37,250
and the space to explore different ways

2073
01:06:37,250 --> 01:06:38,458
to like work on that music.

2074
01:06:40,416 --> 01:06:43,958
You know, if you start to collect things,

2075
01:06:43,958 --> 01:06:45,416
like I have two dogs now,

2076
01:06:45,416 --> 01:06:47,291
you know, I love my dogs.

2077
01:06:50,041 --> 01:06:51,458
But as you collect

2078
01:06:51,458 --> 01:06:53,083
responsibility in life,

2079
01:06:53,083 --> 01:06:54,458
like you may not have

2080
01:06:54,458 --> 01:06:58,083
the resources or the time

2081
01:06:58,458 --> 01:06:59,458
to build it.

2082
01:06:59,458 --> 01:07:01,458
And it's a really a question for you

2083
01:07:01,458 --> 01:07:02,916
if you want to take that leap.

2084
01:07:03,833 --> 01:07:05,125
And if your partner's not

2085
01:07:05,125 --> 01:07:08,541
on board, like, you know,

2086
01:07:09,166 --> 01:07:10,958
just be aware of like, they

2087
01:07:10,958 --> 01:07:12,375
have to be kind of on board

2088
01:07:12,375 --> 01:07:13,458
with it also, if they're

2089
01:07:13,458 --> 01:07:15,333
really not on board with it.

2090
01:07:15,625 --> 01:07:17,125
Maybe they're not the right partner.

2091
01:07:17,125 --> 01:07:17,583
Maybe that's a whole

2092
01:07:17,583 --> 01:07:20,208
other issue, but if you care

2093
01:07:20,208 --> 01:07:21,708
about them and you want to be with them

2094
01:07:21,708 --> 01:07:23,416
and they're like, you can't do this,

2095
01:07:23,416 --> 01:07:25,208
we're $20,000 in debt.

2096
01:07:26,541 --> 01:07:28,958
Like, you have to look at everything

2097
01:07:29,125 --> 01:07:30,791
and kind of figure out

2098
01:07:30,791 --> 01:07:32,416
like, when is the right time?

2099
01:07:33,166 --> 01:07:34,208
And for me, like when I

2100
01:07:34,208 --> 01:07:35,458
started my first company,

2101
01:07:37,583 --> 01:07:38,875
I was in a situation where

2102
01:07:38,875 --> 01:07:40,458
like I saved enough money.

2103
01:07:41,791 --> 01:07:43,083
I calculated like a two

2104
01:07:43,083 --> 01:07:44,958
year burn with zero income.

2105
01:07:47,250 --> 01:07:48,125
And I'm like, I will live

2106
01:07:48,125 --> 01:07:51,500
off $50,000 for two years.

2107
01:07:52,125 --> 01:07:53,625
So it's $25,000 a year.

2108
01:07:54,750 --> 01:07:56,125
I will live with roommates.

2109
01:07:57,666 --> 01:07:59,083
I will not go on vacations.

2110
01:08:00,875 --> 01:08:02,666
I will live in a small little place

2111
01:08:03,291 --> 01:08:05,541
and I will push as far as I can

2112
01:08:05,625 --> 01:08:06,916
until I'm on the brink

2113
01:08:06,916 --> 01:08:08,125
of bankruptcy personally.

2114
01:08:09,333 --> 01:08:10,958
And that was like my thought

2115
01:08:10,958 --> 01:08:12,916
process for the first company.

2116
01:08:13,541 --> 01:08:14,833
But I didn't have a wife.

2117
01:08:15,541 --> 01:08:16,458
I didn't have a partner.

2118
01:08:16,666 --> 01:08:20,000
I didn't have a car payment.

2119
01:08:20,000 --> 01:08:23,000
I didn't have a mortgage, right?

2120
01:08:23,208 --> 01:08:25,458
Like, so I was ready to take that plunge,

2121
01:08:26,041 --> 01:08:27,166
knowing that I may

2122
01:08:27,166 --> 01:08:28,291
come out of the other side

2123
01:08:28,291 --> 01:08:32,416
with no nothing, like nothing.

2124
01:08:34,083 --> 01:08:35,375
15 years later, 20 years

2125
01:08:35,375 --> 01:08:38,375
later, I knew that going in.

2126
01:08:38,916 --> 01:08:39,125
Yeah.

2127
01:08:39,583 --> 01:08:40,500
I've heard this story

2128
01:08:40,500 --> 01:08:42,125
from like a similar story

2129
01:08:42,125 --> 01:08:43,208
from other founders.

2130
01:08:43,208 --> 01:08:44,958
Like why do founders do this?

2131
01:08:44,958 --> 01:08:45,666
It like seems so

2132
01:08:45,666 --> 01:08:47,333
ludicrous, like outside looking in,

2133
01:08:47,625 --> 01:08:50,375
like why do founders make that decision?

2134
01:08:50,875 --> 01:08:51,875
Like what makes it worth it?

2135
01:08:53,500 --> 01:08:56,416
I think it's the, I mean, there's

2136
01:08:56,416 --> 01:08:57,416
different takes on it.

2137
01:08:57,416 --> 01:09:00,250
One is the positive spin is like,

2138
01:09:01,833 --> 01:09:03,375
you believe in the idea so much

2139
01:09:04,000 --> 01:09:05,208
and you wanna work on this

2140
01:09:05,208 --> 01:09:06,708
idea, like it's worth the risk

2141
01:09:06,958 --> 01:09:08,083
and you believe it's gonna work.

2142
01:09:08,083 --> 01:09:12,708
I mean, that's one way to think about it.

2143
01:09:12,708 --> 01:09:14,041
Another is they wanna get rich.

2144
01:09:14,541 --> 01:09:15,958
Like a lot of

2145
01:09:15,958 --> 01:09:16,958
founders don't talk about it,

2146
01:09:16,958 --> 01:09:17,708
but they just wanna become

2147
01:09:17,708 --> 01:09:19,125
really wealthy and that's okay.

2148
01:09:19,375 --> 01:09:21,333
Like that's a good reason to go into it.

2149
01:09:21,333 --> 01:09:22,375
If you think you

2150
01:09:22,375 --> 01:09:23,500
could work on it 10 years

2151
01:09:23,500 --> 01:09:24,875
and you're passionate about it.

2152
01:09:25,958 --> 01:09:28,041
Another is you have a lot of

2153
01:09:28,041 --> 01:09:29,583
dysfunctional founders

2154
01:09:29,833 --> 01:09:32,916
who can't get jobs in the world.

2155
01:09:33,208 --> 01:09:34,083
And then they realized

2156
01:09:34,083 --> 01:09:37,250
that they can create value

2157
01:09:37,333 --> 01:09:38,583
outside of the structures

2158
01:09:38,583 --> 01:09:40,083
of like large organizations.

2159
01:09:40,875 --> 01:09:42,416
So they start small and then they build

2160
01:09:42,416 --> 01:09:43,583
and build and build.

2161
01:09:45,833 --> 01:09:47,583
Yeah, Google is lost, right Daniel?

2162
01:09:49,458 --> 01:09:50,583
Yeah, I mean, Steve

2163
01:09:50,583 --> 01:09:52,000
Jobs, he couldn't get a job.

2164
01:09:52,333 --> 01:09:53,541
He would walk around barefoot.

2165
01:09:53,791 --> 01:09:54,666
I don't know if you know that and he

2166
01:09:54,666 --> 01:09:55,375
didn't take showers.

2167
01:09:55,916 --> 01:09:56,708
Yeah, I knew about the

2168
01:09:56,708 --> 01:09:59,000
barefoot and the no showers thing.

2169
01:09:59,000 --> 01:10:00,416
I didn't know he couldn't get a job,

2170
01:10:00,416 --> 01:10:01,208
but yeah, he was

2171
01:10:01,208 --> 01:10:01,958
quite good and agreeable.

2172
01:10:02,458 --> 01:10:03,666
I mean, that's not true.

2173
01:10:03,666 --> 01:10:05,041
He worked at Atari for a

2174
01:10:05,041 --> 01:10:06,041
little while, but like,

2175
01:10:07,541 --> 01:10:08,166
I don't know, maybe he

2176
01:10:08,166 --> 01:10:10,458
would've went down that other path.

2177
01:10:10,958 --> 01:10:12,833
Yeah, he could've gotten

2178
01:10:12,833 --> 01:10:15,291
sucked into like the Waz's path,

2179
01:10:15,291 --> 01:10:16,500
like working at HP and

2180
01:10:16,500 --> 01:10:17,375
like just being really happy

2181
01:10:17,375 --> 01:10:19,125
to tinker, but I think

2182
01:10:19,125 --> 01:10:20,291
he was quite disagreeable

2183
01:10:20,291 --> 01:10:22,416
by temperament and it's

2184
01:10:22,416 --> 01:10:23,500
hard to imagine somebody

2185
01:10:23,500 --> 01:10:24,458
with that kind of temperament,

2186
01:10:24,458 --> 01:10:26,458
like taking orders from anybody.

2187
01:10:27,958 --> 01:10:28,458
So I mean, there's

2188
01:10:28,458 --> 01:10:29,666
those types of people also

2189
01:10:29,666 --> 01:10:31,958
that look at orders, but like,

2190
01:10:33,125 --> 01:10:34,833
there's no right or wrong way to like

2191
01:10:34,833 --> 01:10:35,750
become an entrepreneur

2192
01:10:35,916 --> 01:10:36,958
also, I think that

2193
01:10:36,958 --> 01:10:38,083
there's really nice founders

2194
01:10:38,083 --> 01:10:39,500
and there's really

2195
01:10:39,500 --> 01:10:41,666
like determined founders

2196
01:10:41,666 --> 01:10:42,500
and then there's founders

2197
01:10:42,500 --> 01:10:43,583
who are really aggressive

2198
01:10:43,583 --> 01:10:46,875
and mean, like there's a spectrum.

2199
01:10:46,875 --> 01:10:47,416
I don't think that

2200
01:10:47,416 --> 01:10:50,583
there's one size fits all

2201
01:10:50,583 --> 01:10:52,041
and people kind of cram

2202
01:10:52,041 --> 01:10:53,416
like the one size fits all

2203
01:10:53,708 --> 01:10:56,083
founder mantra down

2204
01:10:56,083 --> 01:10:58,208
people's throats a lot of the time.

2205
01:10:58,208 --> 01:10:59,625
And you know, that's not exactly,

2206
01:11:00,666 --> 01:11:03,833
you can still build a really valuable,

2207
01:11:04,666 --> 01:11:07,291
enduring, massively successful business

2208
01:11:07,458 --> 01:11:09,916
without being like this one

2209
01:11:09,916 --> 01:11:11,166
founder that's successful.

2210
01:11:14,750 --> 01:11:16,208
So I'd love to talk about

2211
01:11:16,208 --> 01:11:17,500
like building a lasting company

2212
01:11:17,500 --> 01:11:18,375
because you've talked about

2213
01:11:18,375 --> 01:11:19,625
how like all companies die.

2214
01:11:21,125 --> 01:11:22,541
How do you make a

2215
01:11:22,541 --> 01:11:23,666
company that truly lasts

2216
01:11:23,666 --> 01:11:24,666
and how do you make sure,

2217
01:11:24,666 --> 01:11:25,333
how do you know that

2218
01:11:25,333 --> 01:11:26,250
you're working on something

2219
01:11:26,250 --> 01:11:28,083
that like is meaningful and worthwhile?

2220
01:11:28,708 --> 01:11:29,791
And then maybe we'll,

2221
01:11:29,791 --> 01:11:30,666
I'd love to connect that

2222
01:11:30,666 --> 01:11:32,500
with like your greater life purpose,

2223
01:11:32,708 --> 01:11:34,041
like the purpose that

2224
01:11:34,041 --> 01:11:35,333
you've selected for yourself

2225
01:11:35,333 --> 01:11:37,333
or has evolved or you

2226
01:11:37,333 --> 01:11:38,125
might see it intrinsically

2227
01:11:38,666 --> 01:11:39,666
as intrinsically evident.

2228
01:11:39,666 --> 01:11:41,375
I'd love to hear how those

2229
01:11:41,375 --> 01:11:42,583
connect, how you found those.

2230
01:11:49,041 --> 01:11:49,333
Tough one.

2231
01:11:50,250 --> 01:11:51,416
Again, like I said, it's like

2232
01:11:51,416 --> 01:11:54,333
60% luck, 40% determination.

2233
01:11:55,166 --> 01:11:56,458
I think that's a piece of it.

2234
01:11:59,166 --> 01:12:00,208
Like, why are you doing this?

2235
01:12:00,208 --> 01:12:02,541
Like, why start these companies for you?

2236
01:12:02,541 --> 01:12:05,458
Like what was your reason for doing this?

2237
01:12:05,458 --> 01:12:06,000
Like, and how did it

2238
01:12:06,000 --> 01:12:08,000
connect to like your meaning

2239
01:12:08,000 --> 01:12:09,916
like behind your place here on earth?

2240
01:12:12,750 --> 01:12:13,708
Asking the hard questions.

2241
01:12:14,875 --> 01:12:16,083
I mean, my reason for

2242
01:12:16,083 --> 01:12:18,041
starting this, like this company,

2243
01:12:18,041 --> 01:12:20,791
I think it was the energy of the people

2244
01:12:21,083 --> 01:12:24,333
and the idea and the space and, you know,

2245
01:12:24,333 --> 01:12:25,291
if we could build something

2246
01:12:25,291 --> 01:12:27,708
that can go into every business

2247
01:12:29,250 --> 01:12:32,041
in the world, that's exciting.

2248
01:12:32,291 --> 01:12:33,333
Like there's something there.

2249
01:12:33,333 --> 01:12:34,291
And that's like a big mission

2250
01:12:34,291 --> 01:12:35,458
that like really excites me.

2251
01:12:42,958 --> 01:12:44,458
Everybody like I'm working with,

2252
01:12:44,458 --> 01:12:45,083
everybody's learning

2253
01:12:45,083 --> 01:12:46,250
every day from each other.

2254
01:12:47,541 --> 01:12:48,875
I think that's really exciting.

2255
01:12:49,375 --> 01:12:51,583
Like also I'm learning a

2256
01:12:51,583 --> 01:12:53,000
lot from my co-founders

2257
01:12:53,000 --> 01:12:54,583
and they're learning a lot from me.

2258
01:12:54,583 --> 01:12:56,750
And we're all kind of like jelling and

2259
01:12:56,750 --> 01:12:57,833
there's this energy.

2260
01:12:58,916 --> 01:13:00,375
And I really like a

2261
01:13:00,375 --> 01:13:03,958
mission, like driven life.

2262
01:13:04,416 --> 01:13:05,000
Like if you don't have

2263
01:13:05,000 --> 01:13:06,250
a mission in your life,

2264
01:13:06,250 --> 01:13:08,250
like what are you gonna do?

2265
01:13:08,666 --> 01:13:09,500
Like, I don't know, I don't know.

2266
01:13:10,458 --> 01:13:12,458
And this is just like the way I operate.

2267
01:13:12,708 --> 01:13:13,500
I think, you know, my

2268
01:13:13,500 --> 01:13:14,208
wife talks about it.

2269
01:13:14,208 --> 01:13:16,583
She's like, you just do this.

2270
01:13:17,458 --> 01:13:20,250
And I'm like, I could just not do it.

2271
01:13:20,250 --> 01:13:24,250
And like go to a beach and enjoy life.

2272
01:13:25,166 --> 01:13:26,750
But that gets boring, like really fast.

2273
01:13:27,250 --> 01:13:29,833
Like it's not really what I wanna do.

2274
01:13:30,208 --> 01:13:32,291
Like I think being in

2275
01:13:32,291 --> 01:13:34,000
like the game of business

2276
01:13:34,000 --> 01:13:36,083
is really fun because you get to learn

2277
01:13:36,666 --> 01:13:39,000
and it's not a lose-lose situation.

2278
01:13:39,041 --> 01:13:39,875
It's like a win-win where

2279
01:13:39,875 --> 01:13:41,458
like a lot of people win.

2280
01:13:42,875 --> 01:13:44,000
Together it's so fun.

2281
01:13:44,250 --> 01:13:44,958
It's like really fun

2282
01:13:44,958 --> 01:13:45,708
when everybody's like

2283
01:13:46,125 --> 01:13:48,250
working well together and enjoying it.

2284
01:13:48,250 --> 01:13:50,125
And like you create business partnerships

2285
01:13:50,125 --> 01:13:53,208
and everybody like, there's a

2286
01:13:53,208 --> 01:13:54,375
lot of like really good parts

2287
01:13:54,375 --> 01:13:55,250
to building a business.

2288
01:13:55,916 --> 01:13:56,583
Everyone says like

2289
01:13:56,583 --> 01:13:57,916
building a startup is so horrible.

2290
01:13:58,125 --> 01:14:00,541
I'm like, is it though?

2291
01:14:01,041 --> 01:14:03,583
Like there's really hard jobs out there.

2292
01:14:03,625 --> 01:14:04,166
For sure.

2293
01:14:04,583 --> 01:14:06,333
There's really other hard jobs out there

2294
01:14:06,416 --> 01:14:08,750
that people like they suffer.

2295
01:14:09,750 --> 01:14:10,416
Like I don't know.

2296
01:14:11,041 --> 01:14:11,875
I look at like people

2297
01:14:11,875 --> 01:14:13,458
building like skyscrapers

2298
01:14:13,458 --> 01:14:14,958
and like those

2299
01:14:14,958 --> 01:14:17,541
construction workers out there day in

2300
01:14:17,541 --> 01:14:18,208
and day out.

2301
01:14:18,208 --> 01:14:19,708
I'm like building a

2302
01:14:19,708 --> 01:14:21,208
startup is a fun strategy.

2303
01:14:21,541 --> 01:14:22,333
It's like strategy.

2304
01:14:22,625 --> 01:14:23,541
It's like how do we take

2305
01:14:23,541 --> 01:14:25,583
all of the money we have

2306
01:14:25,583 --> 01:14:27,125
and make it like work for

2307
01:14:27,125 --> 01:14:29,458
us in a really positive way?

2308
01:14:30,541 --> 01:14:31,625
You know, when you look

2309
01:14:31,625 --> 01:14:32,458
at construction workers,

2310
01:14:32,458 --> 01:14:33,333
I'm like, that's a really

2311
01:14:33,333 --> 01:14:34,791
grueling, stressful job.

2312
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:36,791
I'm like, thank God those

2313
01:14:36,791 --> 01:14:38,333
people opted into doing that

2314
01:14:38,333 --> 01:14:39,041
because it's a really

2315
01:14:39,041 --> 01:14:40,250
hard job and it's like,

2316
01:14:41,250 --> 01:14:43,125
it's a job I wouldn't want to do.

2317
01:14:43,125 --> 01:14:44,250
And I think that's another thing.

2318
01:14:44,250 --> 01:14:45,750
It's like you look at all

2319
01:14:45,750 --> 01:14:46,625
of these different paths

2320
01:14:46,625 --> 01:14:47,500
in your life and you're

2321
01:14:47,500 --> 01:14:48,541
like, do I want to do this?

2322
01:14:48,750 --> 01:14:49,708
No, do I want to do that?

2323
01:14:50,000 --> 01:14:50,208
No.

2324
01:14:50,916 --> 01:14:52,250
Would I be happy doing this?

2325
01:14:52,458 --> 01:14:54,625
Yes, but this has problems.

2326
01:14:54,625 --> 01:14:55,250
And then you kind of like

2327
01:14:55,250 --> 01:14:56,458
figure out for yourself.

2328
01:14:57,000 --> 01:14:58,250
I do think that the world

2329
01:14:58,250 --> 01:14:59,958
glorifies entrepreneurship.

2330
01:15:00,416 --> 01:15:02,291
It is not what people think.

2331
01:15:02,291 --> 01:15:03,583
You know this Daniel, you're in it.

2332
01:15:04,166 --> 01:15:06,416
It's not like all fun

2333
01:15:06,416 --> 01:15:07,375
and glitz and glory.

2334
01:15:07,583 --> 01:15:09,875
It's literally day in and day out,

2335
01:15:09,875 --> 01:15:11,833
like sitting in front of your computer

2336
01:15:11,833 --> 01:15:12,958
and doing phone calls

2337
01:15:13,208 --> 01:15:14,500
and like working with people.

2338
01:15:15,625 --> 01:15:17,750
And it's not an overnight success.

2339
01:15:17,750 --> 01:15:18,958
People get in their head

2340
01:15:18,958 --> 01:15:20,250
like, oh, a year from now,

2341
01:15:20,250 --> 01:15:21,083
this is going to be so

2342
01:15:21,083 --> 01:15:21,916
big and I'm going to have

2343
01:15:21,916 --> 01:15:23,375
all these users and they kind of,

2344
01:15:23,875 --> 01:15:24,875
they view it as like

2345
01:15:24,875 --> 01:15:27,083
almost like the new rock stars.

2346
01:15:27,375 --> 01:15:29,666
I'm like, it's not that.

2347
01:15:29,916 --> 01:15:34,041
It's a grind in its own way.

2348
01:15:34,041 --> 01:15:35,041
And it's like stressful in

2349
01:15:35,041 --> 01:15:37,541
its own way, but you know,

2350
01:15:37,958 --> 01:15:39,208
I guess the people that go

2351
01:15:39,208 --> 01:15:40,625
in with it, with that mindset,

2352
01:15:41,708 --> 01:15:42,416
like they're going to

2353
01:15:42,416 --> 01:15:44,541
fail because it's not

2354
01:15:45,333 --> 01:15:46,625
what they're expecting.

2355
01:15:47,041 --> 01:15:48,333
Like I kind of went into

2356
01:15:48,333 --> 01:15:50,958
it knowing like, you know,

2357
01:15:51,625 --> 01:15:53,416
it takes time and you have

2358
01:15:53,416 --> 01:15:54,916
to like put a lot of energy

2359
01:15:54,916 --> 01:15:55,833
into it and you have to

2360
01:15:55,833 --> 01:15:56,666
like figure things out.

2361
01:16:00,041 --> 01:16:02,125
Yeah, it's definitely

2362
01:16:02,125 --> 01:16:03,125
grind and it's definitely

2363
01:16:03,291 --> 01:16:04,583
not the romanticized

2364
01:16:04,583 --> 01:16:05,875
thing you see nowadays

2365
01:16:05,875 --> 01:16:07,208
and sort of become trendy,

2366
01:16:07,208 --> 01:16:08,375
especially for young people

2367
01:16:08,375 --> 01:16:09,625
to try to get into entrepreneurship.

2368
01:16:10,958 --> 01:16:13,083
But after like your first company,

2369
01:16:13,083 --> 01:16:14,958
like you could have become a huge VC.

2370
01:16:15,375 --> 01:16:16,291
You had like an

2371
01:16:16,291 --> 01:16:18,708
amazing exit, a lot of press,

2372
01:16:18,708 --> 01:16:19,333
a lot of attention.

2373
01:16:19,666 --> 01:16:20,750
Why did you come back

2374
01:16:20,750 --> 01:16:21,583
to the founder path?

2375
01:16:21,916 --> 01:16:24,083
Like what was it that drove you to that?

2376
01:16:24,083 --> 01:16:26,208
Like what, what compelled you to do so?

2377
01:16:26,750 --> 01:16:27,875
You could have done so

2378
01:16:27,875 --> 01:16:28,791
many different things.

2379
01:16:28,791 --> 01:16:29,625
You could have, you

2380
01:16:29,625 --> 01:16:31,208
know, become a beach bum

2381
01:16:32,166 --> 01:16:33,958
and septumimosas, right?

2382
01:16:34,875 --> 01:16:36,583
What pulled you this way?

2383
01:16:37,125 --> 01:16:38,458
I mean, I don't know

2384
01:16:38,458 --> 01:16:39,291
if a lot of people know

2385
01:16:39,291 --> 01:16:40,583
how VCs operate.

2386
01:16:41,916 --> 01:16:43,000
I mean, who knows maybe

2387
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:44,541
down the road I would do that,

2388
01:16:44,791 --> 01:16:44,958
right?

2389
01:16:47,750 --> 01:16:49,291
But you know, being a

2390
01:16:49,291 --> 01:16:50,333
VC is very different

2391
01:16:50,333 --> 01:16:51,375
than being an entrepreneur.

2392
01:16:51,875 --> 01:16:55,000
I think, first of all,

2393
01:16:55,000 --> 01:16:56,750
like 90% of VC firms fail.

2394
01:16:56,958 --> 01:16:57,916
I don't know if people know that.

2395
01:16:58,208 --> 01:17:00,791
So being a VC is not safe.

2396
01:17:01,208 --> 01:17:02,166
Yeah, it's exactly like a startup.

2397
01:17:02,458 --> 01:17:03,125
So you're investing in

2398
01:17:03,125 --> 01:17:04,916
high risk companies as a VC.

2399
01:17:05,458 --> 01:17:06,250
And like you are trying to

2400
01:17:06,250 --> 01:17:07,333
figure out who are the best

2401
01:17:08,208 --> 01:17:09,375
companies to invest in.

2402
01:17:10,666 --> 01:17:11,708
You know, you're trying to pick the best.

2403
01:17:11,916 --> 01:17:13,375
You are de-risked in a way

2404
01:17:13,375 --> 01:17:14,625
because you have maybe 10

2405
01:17:14,625 --> 01:17:16,375
companies or 30 companies

2406
01:17:16,375 --> 01:17:17,916
or 200 companies or 500

2407
01:17:17,916 --> 01:17:19,208
companies that you invested in.

2408
01:17:19,625 --> 01:17:21,750
So your chances of success are higher.

2409
01:17:25,375 --> 01:17:27,125
You know, and they also get like,

2410
01:17:27,125 --> 01:17:27,500
I don't know if you

2411
01:17:27,500 --> 01:17:28,625
know what two and 20 is.

2412
01:17:29,041 --> 01:17:29,833
Do you know what that is?

2413
01:17:29,958 --> 01:17:30,583
I do not.

2414
01:17:30,583 --> 01:17:31,041
What is that?

2415
01:17:31,833 --> 01:17:33,458
That's the way that VCs operate.

2416
01:17:33,458 --> 01:17:37,541
They get 2% management fees every year.

2417
01:17:37,916 --> 01:17:38,958
So if they raise $100 million,

2418
01:17:39,833 --> 01:17:41,208
they get $2 million to

2419
01:17:41,208 --> 01:17:42,458
operate their VC firm.

2420
01:17:44,166 --> 01:17:44,708
And then they get

2421
01:17:44,708 --> 01:17:46,250
something called 20% carry,

2422
01:17:47,125 --> 01:17:54,041
which is basically any exit that happens,

2423
01:17:54,041 --> 01:17:58,666
they get 20% of the exit amount of equity

2424
01:17:58,833 --> 01:17:59,833
that they hold in that company.

2425
01:18:01,250 --> 01:18:02,625
I mean, honestly, like being a VC

2426
01:18:02,958 --> 01:18:04,125
sounds like a really great gig.

2427
01:18:04,125 --> 01:18:05,500
I don't think it's a bad gig.

2428
01:18:05,500 --> 01:18:07,250
I'm like, it's not a bad job.

2429
01:18:07,916 --> 01:18:09,666
I actually think it's a really fun job.

2430
01:18:09,666 --> 01:18:10,708
You get to talk to entrepreneurs.

2431
01:18:11,250 --> 01:18:14,583
I mean, for me, I just, I know,

2432
01:18:14,583 --> 01:18:16,791
I work with a lot of entrepreneurs

2433
01:18:16,791 --> 01:18:18,416
and I felt like it was just a really,

2434
01:18:19,500 --> 01:18:20,291
you get your hands,

2435
01:18:20,833 --> 01:18:22,708
you know, into a company

2436
01:18:22,708 --> 01:18:23,416
and you get to like

2437
01:18:23,416 --> 01:18:25,250
work with the team a lot.

2438
01:18:25,958 --> 01:18:27,250
VCs don't, you know?

2439
01:18:27,416 --> 01:18:28,583
I don't know if you know, like they just,

2440
01:18:28,708 --> 01:18:31,500
they don't, they just, they don't get--

2441
01:18:31,500 --> 01:18:33,125
They say they will, but they can't.

2442
01:18:34,250 --> 01:18:35,708
Yeah, I mean, if you have 50 companies,

2443
01:18:35,708 --> 01:18:36,791
100 companies, like

2444
01:18:36,791 --> 01:18:39,208
you can only do so much.

2445
01:18:39,208 --> 01:18:39,958
And it's just a way

2446
01:18:39,958 --> 01:18:40,791
that that's structured

2447
01:18:40,791 --> 01:18:41,958
like a lot of the time, right?

2448
01:18:42,291 --> 01:18:45,166
Like you can't, you can't

2449
01:18:45,166 --> 01:18:46,000
help all of your companies.

2450
01:18:47,458 --> 01:18:49,375
So I know that you do some investing

2451
01:18:49,625 --> 01:18:51,208
with your investor hat on,

2452
01:18:51,208 --> 01:18:52,125
how do you decide which

2453
01:18:52,125 --> 01:18:53,291
companies to invest in?

2454
01:18:56,416 --> 01:18:57,250
I mean, for me, it's at

2455
01:18:57,250 --> 01:18:58,208
the really early stage.

2456
01:18:58,458 --> 01:18:59,750
Like I wouldn't invest in

2457
01:18:59,750 --> 01:19:01,333
like a late stage company.

2458
01:19:01,541 --> 01:19:02,458
I think it's just founders.

2459
01:19:02,791 --> 01:19:03,958
Honestly, I talk to the

2460
01:19:03,958 --> 01:19:05,250
founder, I look at the idea.

2461
01:19:07,500 --> 01:19:08,625
I know the risk going into

2462
01:19:08,625 --> 01:19:09,708
it, it's really high risk.

2463
01:19:10,083 --> 01:19:12,166
So I would love it if

2464
01:19:12,166 --> 01:19:13,208
the companies work out,

2465
01:19:13,333 --> 01:19:14,333
but at the same time,

2466
01:19:14,333 --> 01:19:15,458
I know the founders are

2467
01:19:16,791 --> 01:19:18,958
hopefully like trying their best and

2468
01:19:18,958 --> 01:19:19,916
trying to make it work.

2469
01:19:19,916 --> 01:19:21,666
But at the same time,

2470
01:19:21,666 --> 01:19:23,083
it's not like I'm gonna

2471
01:19:25,250 --> 01:19:26,541
be angry if it fails.

2472
01:19:27,458 --> 01:19:30,625
So it's the same, startups are hard.

2473
01:19:30,625 --> 01:19:31,125
And it's like, if you're

2474
01:19:31,125 --> 01:19:32,208
gonna invest in startups,

2475
01:19:32,208 --> 01:19:34,291
your chances of success are very low.

2476
01:19:34,625 --> 01:19:36,583
Like maybe one, two,

2477
01:19:36,583 --> 01:19:38,291
three, four, 5% will make it.

2478
01:19:39,166 --> 01:19:40,875
So 95% of the money you

2479
01:19:40,875 --> 01:19:43,041
put in may not be there

2480
01:19:43,041 --> 01:19:43,958
that you put in.

2481
01:19:44,583 --> 01:19:45,750
But if one of those

2482
01:19:45,750 --> 01:19:47,125
companies has a big outcome,

2483
01:19:47,125 --> 01:19:48,000
then you're in a really,

2484
01:19:48,666 --> 01:19:49,833
you can make your money back.

2485
01:19:53,000 --> 01:19:54,541
With all the AI hype going on,

2486
01:19:54,916 --> 01:19:56,500
like how do investors and founders both,

2487
01:19:56,916 --> 01:19:58,625
if a startup worthy

2488
01:19:58,625 --> 01:19:59,416
problem should be approached

2489
01:19:59,416 --> 01:20:01,375
with AI or not, or like

2490
01:20:01,375 --> 01:20:02,375
more traditional route,

2491
01:20:02,625 --> 01:20:03,500
so like solving a problem.

2492
01:20:04,416 --> 01:20:05,125
Like how do we know if

2493
01:20:05,125 --> 01:20:06,833
there's a problem to be solved

2494
01:20:06,833 --> 01:20:08,458
with AI or not, when now

2495
01:20:08,458 --> 01:20:09,541
everyone seems to be wanting

2496
01:20:09,541 --> 01:20:11,791
to throw AI and chat GPT

2497
01:20:11,791 --> 01:20:12,750
wrappers at everything?

2498
01:20:14,583 --> 01:20:16,291
I mean, that's a whole nother debate

2499
01:20:16,291 --> 01:20:18,458
in like the strategy, I think.

2500
01:20:19,958 --> 01:20:21,791
I mean, if you look

2501
01:20:21,791 --> 01:20:23,166
at it, they're building

2502
01:20:23,333 --> 01:20:27,125
like nuclear power plants now to support

2503
01:20:27,458 --> 01:20:28,375
the new infrastructure.

2504
01:20:28,666 --> 01:20:29,583
Yeah, Google just

2505
01:20:29,583 --> 01:20:30,625
announced the other day, right?

2506
01:20:30,916 --> 01:20:31,458
Seven reactors.

2507
01:20:32,333 --> 01:20:34,125
Amazon, you name it, like all of these

2508
01:20:34,125 --> 01:20:35,333
different businesses

2509
01:20:35,333 --> 01:20:36,458
are doing that and

2510
01:20:36,458 --> 01:20:39,500
they're massive server farms

2511
01:20:39,500 --> 01:20:41,208
like another like are

2512
01:20:41,208 --> 01:20:42,416
being built out and it's,

2513
01:20:43,958 --> 01:20:45,250
I don't know what the

2514
01:20:45,250 --> 01:20:46,541
outcome of it's gonna be,

2515
01:20:46,541 --> 01:20:48,000
but I can tell you that

2516
01:20:48,000 --> 01:20:51,125
like everything that's software

2517
01:20:51,416 --> 01:20:52,625
driven will have some sort

2518
01:20:52,625 --> 01:20:55,541
of AI in it at some point.

2519
01:20:56,416 --> 01:20:59,666
And it's, you have to pick the winners,

2520
01:20:59,666 --> 01:21:01,208
but it's also like the internet, right?

2521
01:21:01,375 --> 01:21:04,000
Like when the internet first came out,

2522
01:21:06,125 --> 01:21:06,625
they didn't know who

2523
01:21:06,625 --> 01:21:07,375
was gonna be the winners.

2524
01:21:07,833 --> 01:21:11,791
So like Amazon was one amongst many.

2525
01:21:13,541 --> 01:21:15,000
People thought Amazon might fail,

2526
01:21:15,500 --> 01:21:17,541
people thought pets.com might succeed.

2527
01:21:19,041 --> 01:21:21,375
Like you don't really

2528
01:21:21,375 --> 01:21:23,458
know, but in the long run,

2529
01:21:24,500 --> 01:21:26,458
a company is a sports team, right?

2530
01:21:26,708 --> 01:21:28,125
So like you kind of

2531
01:21:28,125 --> 01:21:29,291
pick your sports teams

2532
01:21:29,916 --> 01:21:31,583
and you say, I believe in this company,

2533
01:21:32,625 --> 01:21:34,166
I'm gonna invest in this sports team

2534
01:21:34,208 --> 01:21:35,458
because they seem to

2535
01:21:35,458 --> 01:21:38,041
have the most energy,

2536
01:21:38,708 --> 01:21:40,125
you know, intelligence,

2537
01:21:41,041 --> 01:21:42,916
emotional intelligence.

2538
01:21:43,375 --> 01:21:46,791
Like they also have like stuff going on

2539
01:21:46,875 --> 01:21:49,416
and they seem like the right team.

2540
01:21:49,666 --> 01:21:51,125
So that's how people would invest.

2541
01:21:51,458 --> 01:21:53,666
So do you invest everything in AI?

2542
01:21:53,666 --> 01:21:55,833
The answer is no, there's

2543
01:21:55,833 --> 01:21:57,250
good businesses outside of AI.

2544
01:21:57,583 --> 01:22:00,000
Like clearly there's a lot of like areas

2545
01:22:00,000 --> 01:22:01,083
that people can go into.

2546
01:22:01,083 --> 01:22:02,083
I just think AI is

2547
01:22:02,083 --> 01:22:03,791
going to change the world

2548
01:22:03,791 --> 01:22:05,083
at a really fast rate.

2549
01:22:05,750 --> 01:22:07,666
So the opportunities there are unknown

2550
01:22:07,666 --> 01:22:08,875
and people get excited by

2551
01:22:08,875 --> 01:22:10,875
like the upside of unknown.

2552
01:22:13,791 --> 01:22:15,041
Yeah, I can see us diving

2553
01:22:15,041 --> 01:22:16,458
into this for a few hours.

2554
01:22:16,916 --> 01:22:17,958
This specific topic.

2555
01:22:18,375 --> 01:22:19,875
This is definitely a lot longer one,

2556
01:22:19,875 --> 01:22:20,791
perhaps another time.

2557
01:22:21,666 --> 01:22:24,708
But what I wanted to ask, life post exit,

2558
01:22:24,708 --> 01:22:25,583
you had like a huge,

2559
01:22:25,583 --> 01:22:26,750
hugely successful exit

2560
01:22:27,000 --> 01:22:27,833
with your first company.

2561
01:22:28,416 --> 01:22:29,875
Like how does the math

2562
01:22:29,875 --> 01:22:31,416
change, the dynamics change?

2563
01:22:31,875 --> 01:22:32,958
Like, did you take

2564
01:22:32,958 --> 01:22:34,041
some space for yourself

2565
01:22:34,250 --> 01:22:35,041
between companies?

2566
01:22:35,416 --> 01:22:37,875
Like how did your view

2567
01:22:37,875 --> 01:22:41,166
post exit on like your life,

2568
01:22:41,166 --> 01:22:42,875
your purpose, your work change?

2569
01:22:43,583 --> 01:22:44,791
I'm sure it can't be

2570
01:22:44,791 --> 01:22:46,125
the same as it was before.

2571
01:22:53,166 --> 01:22:55,625
I think, you know, I

2572
01:22:55,625 --> 01:22:57,166
took about a year off,

2573
01:22:57,708 --> 01:22:59,833
essentially, give or take.

2574
01:23:00,583 --> 01:23:01,458
But I was just really

2575
01:23:01,458 --> 01:23:02,500
trying to figure out

2576
01:23:02,500 --> 01:23:03,833
like what to do next.

2577
01:23:04,375 --> 01:23:05,208
Like you kind of,

2578
01:23:07,791 --> 01:23:09,500
you kind of just think

2579
01:23:09,500 --> 01:23:10,541
about different things,

2580
01:23:10,541 --> 01:23:11,166
different areas.

2581
01:23:11,500 --> 01:23:12,291
Like, you know, I

2582
01:23:12,291 --> 01:23:13,708
thought about VCs a lot,

2583
01:23:13,708 --> 01:23:15,458
like becoming a venture capitalist.

2584
01:23:15,458 --> 01:23:18,666
I thought about doing all

2585
01:23:18,666 --> 01:23:19,833
different types of startups,

2586
01:23:19,833 --> 01:23:20,916
maybe being an advisor,

2587
01:23:22,166 --> 01:23:23,666
maybe just being an angel investor.

2588
01:23:30,041 --> 01:23:32,833
Nobody has like a right like path per se,

2589
01:23:32,833 --> 01:23:34,083
but I would say like for me,

2590
01:23:34,083 --> 01:23:34,958
it was just taking

2591
01:23:34,958 --> 01:23:36,083
that year off was good.

2592
01:23:36,375 --> 01:23:37,333
I drove across country.

2593
01:23:38,333 --> 01:23:39,000
Nice. Twice.

2594
01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:40,666
Twice. Twice.

2595
01:23:41,708 --> 01:23:42,500
That sounds like fun.

2596
01:23:43,333 --> 01:23:48,916
Yeah, no, it was a lot of fun, honestly,

2597
01:23:49,125 --> 01:23:50,208
like just seeing the United States.

2598
01:23:50,458 --> 01:23:52,208
So I drove across every state

2599
01:23:52,208 --> 01:23:53,166
and kind of experienced

2600
01:23:53,166 --> 01:23:56,208
each state and just spent time.

2601
01:23:56,416 --> 01:23:57,833
Honestly, I spent time like catching up

2602
01:23:57,833 --> 01:23:58,500
with a lot of friends

2603
01:23:58,500 --> 01:24:00,083
also, which was really nice.

2604
01:24:00,375 --> 01:24:02,250
Like I think part of like the

2605
01:24:02,250 --> 01:24:04,541
downside of doing my startup

2606
01:24:04,541 --> 01:24:05,750
was I just didn't

2607
01:24:05,750 --> 01:24:07,250
have time for, you know,

2608
01:24:07,250 --> 01:24:07,750
spending time with

2609
01:24:07,750 --> 01:24:08,625
like people I cared about,

2610
01:24:08,666 --> 01:24:10,208
like friends from college,

2611
01:24:10,583 --> 01:24:13,458
like friends from high school,

2612
01:24:13,708 --> 01:24:15,708
like just family and all of that.

2613
01:24:15,708 --> 01:24:18,583
So it was a lot of catching up to do,

2614
01:24:18,583 --> 01:24:19,250
like just seeing like

2615
01:24:19,250 --> 01:24:20,625
how people are in life.

2616
01:24:20,625 --> 01:24:22,208
And, you know, I think that's

2617
01:24:22,208 --> 01:24:23,666
one thing founders should do

2618
01:24:23,666 --> 01:24:26,875
is just try not to disconnect too much

2619
01:24:26,875 --> 01:24:28,000
and try not to go too

2620
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:28,875
deep in your startup

2621
01:24:29,041 --> 01:24:31,166
because you want your

2622
01:24:31,166 --> 01:24:32,416
friends to remember you.

2623
01:24:32,416 --> 01:24:33,458
You want your family to be like,

2624
01:24:33,458 --> 01:24:34,500
oh, you know, you want to like

2625
01:24:34,500 --> 01:24:37,625
keep that relationship there.

2626
01:24:38,958 --> 01:24:40,166
They say that on your death bed

2627
01:24:40,166 --> 01:24:41,541
and like people just

2628
01:24:41,541 --> 01:24:42,791
talk about the people

2629
01:24:42,791 --> 01:24:44,583
they wish they'd spent more time with.

2630
01:24:45,000 --> 01:24:45,791
I don't think they're like,

2631
01:24:45,791 --> 01:24:46,916
I wish I'd gotten 5

2632
01:24:46,916 --> 01:24:48,375
million more ARR, right?

2633
01:24:49,291 --> 01:24:50,458
Yeah, yeah.

2634
01:24:50,958 --> 01:24:52,250
I mean, that's, you know,

2635
01:24:52,416 --> 01:24:53,916
every founder kind of has that dilemma.

2636
01:24:54,166 --> 01:24:56,291
It's like, oh, I could work this Friday.

2637
01:24:56,958 --> 01:24:57,666
Oh, but my friends

2638
01:24:57,666 --> 01:24:58,708
are going out, you know.

2639
01:24:59,750 --> 01:25:00,916
I opted to work on the

2640
01:25:00,916 --> 01:25:04,000
Friday, but I, after, you know,

2641
01:25:04,000 --> 01:25:05,500
once I took time off, I was

2642
01:25:05,500 --> 01:25:06,708
just spending time with friends

2643
01:25:06,708 --> 01:25:07,458
and just catching up

2644
01:25:07,458 --> 01:25:08,208
with a lot of people.

2645
01:25:08,541 --> 01:25:09,333
It's really nice because

2646
01:25:09,333 --> 01:25:12,375
I feel like I've rebonded

2647
01:25:12,375 --> 01:25:13,083
with a lot of people

2648
01:25:13,083 --> 01:25:14,041
that like from my past

2649
01:25:14,041 --> 01:25:15,875
and it's just, it's really important.

2650
01:25:16,083 --> 01:25:16,916
I think just for everybody,

2651
01:25:17,166 --> 01:25:18,375
because people in your life, Daniel,

2652
01:25:18,375 --> 01:25:18,958
I'm sure that like,

2653
01:25:19,375 --> 01:25:20,625
you don't have the time

2654
01:25:20,625 --> 01:25:21,750
to talk to right now, but

2655
01:25:21,750 --> 01:25:22,916
like, hopefully they'll,

2656
01:25:23,375 --> 01:25:24,541
you know, just keep in touch with them,

2657
01:25:24,541 --> 01:25:25,125
like reach out to the

2658
01:25:25,125 --> 01:25:25,916
people you care about.

2659
01:25:26,750 --> 01:25:26,958
Yeah.

2660
01:25:27,750 --> 01:25:29,250
I try, but you know,

2661
01:25:29,458 --> 01:25:31,041
we, you know how it is.

2662
01:25:31,625 --> 01:25:32,916
You're guilty if you don't talk to them,

2663
01:25:33,333 --> 01:25:34,125
but if you do talk to

2664
01:25:34,125 --> 01:25:34,708
them, you're guilty,

2665
01:25:34,708 --> 01:25:35,000
you're not spending

2666
01:25:35,000 --> 01:25:35,666
time with the company.

2667
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:38,541
So it's like trade off both ways.

2668
01:25:39,791 --> 01:25:40,708
Right, right.

2669
01:25:41,666 --> 01:25:42,250
Do you think there's a

2670
01:25:42,250 --> 01:25:43,583
connection between trauma

2671
01:25:43,916 --> 01:25:45,125
and the founder path?

2672
01:25:45,958 --> 01:25:46,500
Is there

2673
01:25:49,041 --> 01:25:50,583
trauma in every founder's path?

2674
01:25:50,875 --> 01:25:54,208
I would say no, I would say no.

2675
01:25:54,541 --> 01:25:56,208
I would say some

2676
01:25:56,208 --> 01:25:57,291
people are really privileged

2677
01:25:58,291 --> 01:25:59,875
or they had really good lives.

2678
01:26:01,208 --> 01:26:03,000
Not everybody has trauma.

2679
01:26:04,666 --> 01:26:06,125
Every founder is so different.

2680
01:26:06,458 --> 01:26:08,416
Like you're gonna have like some people

2681
01:26:08,416 --> 01:26:09,958
that have like disastrous trauma

2682
01:26:10,208 --> 01:26:11,208
for them to start a company.

2683
01:26:11,958 --> 01:26:14,291
I know, we went to that camp YC together

2684
01:26:14,291 --> 01:26:15,666
and I'm like, everybody has trauma.

2685
01:26:15,916 --> 01:26:18,166
I'm like, I don't know

2686
01:26:18,166 --> 01:26:19,416
if that's exactly true.

2687
01:26:19,416 --> 01:26:20,208
I think some people

2688
01:26:20,208 --> 01:26:21,583
just genuinely just wanted

2689
01:26:21,583 --> 01:26:22,416
to start a company and

2690
01:26:22,416 --> 01:26:23,291
they had a really good life.

2691
01:26:24,583 --> 01:26:25,375
And they just see it

2692
01:26:25,375 --> 01:26:26,458
as like a path for them.

2693
01:26:28,166 --> 01:26:30,041
There's always like a flip case.

2694
01:26:33,708 --> 01:26:35,208
I think for me, part

2695
01:26:35,208 --> 01:26:36,750
of it was maybe trauma.

2696
01:26:37,208 --> 01:26:40,250
Like my parents didn't have much, right?

2697
01:26:40,375 --> 01:26:42,625
So like for me, I was

2698
01:26:42,625 --> 01:26:45,500
like, how do I make our lives

2699
01:26:45,500 --> 01:26:47,416
like a little more secure and safe?

2700
01:26:47,750 --> 01:26:49,958
And I saw what my parents

2701
01:26:49,958 --> 01:26:51,166
had and my parents spoke.

2702
01:26:51,458 --> 01:26:52,708
My dad worked for the

2703
01:26:52,708 --> 01:26:53,791
government, which was great.

2704
01:26:55,000 --> 01:26:55,666
So he had security,

2705
01:26:55,666 --> 01:26:56,625
but we always struggled

2706
01:26:56,833 --> 01:26:57,333
because it was like,

2707
01:26:57,750 --> 01:26:58,666
they don't pay that well

2708
01:26:58,666 --> 01:27:00,125
at the government, right?

2709
01:27:00,208 --> 01:27:01,375
So like, and he had three kids.

2710
01:27:01,375 --> 01:27:02,166
So he was always like

2711
01:27:02,166 --> 01:27:03,375
trying to figure out how to have

2712
01:27:04,583 --> 01:27:07,250
like enough to support all of his kids,

2713
01:27:07,250 --> 01:27:08,416
which he did a really good job.

2714
01:27:08,625 --> 01:27:10,458
He honestly like taught me

2715
01:27:10,458 --> 01:27:13,708
a lot, like just work hard.

2716
01:27:13,708 --> 01:27:14,750
He's like, just work hard.

2717
01:27:14,750 --> 01:27:16,833
That was the ethic that he left for me.

2718
01:27:16,833 --> 01:27:18,541
And I'm like, God, I'll work really hard.

2719
01:27:19,791 --> 01:27:22,708
You know, so part of the

2720
01:27:22,708 --> 01:27:23,583
reason why I worked so hard

2721
01:27:23,583 --> 01:27:25,583
on my startup is because of my father.

2722
01:27:25,583 --> 01:27:26,666
That's not quite trauma.

2723
01:27:26,666 --> 01:27:28,208
That's just like him

2724
01:27:28,208 --> 01:27:31,958
showing a way for me to like be,

2725
01:27:32,208 --> 01:27:34,208
but that, you know, but I also saw the

2726
01:27:34,208 --> 01:27:35,000
way that he suffered

2727
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:36,125
by working for the government

2728
01:27:36,125 --> 01:27:37,375
because he didn't make a lot of money.

2729
01:27:37,958 --> 01:27:39,208
You know, the government's great.

2730
01:27:39,208 --> 01:27:40,333
They do provide benefits

2731
01:27:40,333 --> 01:27:41,625
and they do provide a lot

2732
01:27:41,625 --> 01:27:43,333
of like resources, but like

2733
01:27:43,333 --> 01:27:46,958
you don't get ahead ahead.

2734
01:27:47,291 --> 01:27:47,791
You know what I mean?

2735
01:27:48,541 --> 01:27:51,458
Working for like the mail, you know,

2736
01:27:51,458 --> 01:27:52,291
and the Nancy's

2737
01:27:52,291 --> 01:27:53,250
supposed to service or like

2738
01:27:53,250 --> 01:27:54,333
as an elevator mechanic

2739
01:27:54,333 --> 01:27:55,541
or like in the military,

2740
01:27:56,208 --> 01:27:57,000
you're not going to come out

2741
01:27:57,000 --> 01:27:58,083
and like have ultra wealth.

2742
01:27:59,166 --> 01:28:00,208
Right? So like, I saw that.

2743
01:28:00,208 --> 01:28:00,750
I'm like, oh, he

2744
01:28:00,750 --> 01:28:02,208
struggled his whole life,

2745
01:28:02,208 --> 01:28:04,166
but he was taken care of in a safe way.

2746
01:28:04,166 --> 01:28:06,166
I'm like, what if I go this path?

2747
01:28:06,166 --> 01:28:07,708
That's way less known.

2748
01:28:09,375 --> 01:28:10,166
Who knows what's there?

2749
01:28:10,500 --> 01:28:12,500
Like, and that's honestly one of the

2750
01:28:12,500 --> 01:28:13,208
reasons why I did it.

2751
01:28:13,208 --> 01:28:14,250
I'm like, who knows?

2752
01:28:14,250 --> 01:28:15,208
Like, what's this path?

2753
01:28:15,208 --> 01:28:16,875
Let me, let me look on this path

2754
01:28:16,875 --> 01:28:18,708
and see what I can accomplish.

2755
01:28:22,250 --> 01:28:24,625
And speaking to some great

2756
01:28:24,625 --> 01:28:26,041
coaches the last few years,

2757
01:28:27,250 --> 01:28:28,875
I've learned that the most,

2758
01:28:28,875 --> 01:28:29,416
one of the most valuable

2759
01:28:29,416 --> 01:28:30,958
things you can learn is not like

2760
01:28:31,166 --> 01:28:32,166
the facts or the

2761
01:28:32,166 --> 01:28:33,666
specific suggestions or advice.

2762
01:28:34,375 --> 01:28:35,333
It's actually the frameworks.

2763
01:28:36,166 --> 01:28:37,708
Are there any frameworks that your father

2764
01:28:38,000 --> 01:28:40,416
or Paul Graham imparted on

2765
01:28:40,416 --> 01:28:42,375
you that have been instrumental

2766
01:28:42,750 --> 01:28:43,875
in the success that

2767
01:28:43,875 --> 01:28:45,541
you've had that you could share

2768
01:28:45,541 --> 01:28:46,625
with young founders

2769
01:28:46,625 --> 01:28:47,458
early in their journey?

2770
01:28:52,833 --> 01:28:54,250
Yeah, there's a lot of like thinking,

2771
01:28:54,541 --> 01:28:55,625
a lot of different ideas like

2772
01:28:55,625 --> 01:28:59,041
around what I think there's,

2773
01:28:59,041 --> 01:29:00,958
I call them like axioms of like truth.

2774
01:29:01,750 --> 01:29:03,250
Like people get really

2775
01:29:03,250 --> 01:29:04,666
rattled by competitors.

2776
01:29:06,625 --> 01:29:07,416
Say you have a competitor

2777
01:29:07,416 --> 01:29:08,458
and a competitor raises,

2778
01:29:08,708 --> 01:29:09,791
I don't know, $400

2779
01:29:09,791 --> 01:29:11,708
million to your company

2780
01:29:11,708 --> 01:29:13,375
and they're a competitor to you.

2781
01:29:15,500 --> 01:29:17,291
That scares a lot of founders away.

2782
01:29:17,625 --> 01:29:19,541
And I think that's the wrong thinking is,

2783
01:29:19,750 --> 01:29:22,000
oh, our competitor has dot,

2784
01:29:22,000 --> 01:29:23,250
dot, dot, we're gonna die.

2785
01:29:24,000 --> 01:29:26,541
Like a lot of founders

2786
01:29:26,541 --> 01:29:27,958
get really rattled by that.

2787
01:29:27,958 --> 01:29:29,291
And I think like doing that

2788
01:29:29,291 --> 01:29:30,833
too often will like put you

2789
01:29:30,833 --> 01:29:31,541
in a psychological

2790
01:29:31,541 --> 01:29:33,916
space where like you will be

2791
01:29:33,916 --> 01:29:34,708
self-defeated.

2792
01:29:35,416 --> 01:29:37,833
Like, so like don't look at your

2793
01:29:37,833 --> 01:29:39,708
competitors as much as,

2794
01:29:42,541 --> 01:29:43,291
as others are looking

2795
01:29:43,291 --> 01:29:44,083
at their competitors.

2796
01:29:44,750 --> 01:29:45,666
I mean, an example is

2797
01:29:45,666 --> 01:29:46,541
like dig and Reddit,

2798
01:29:46,708 --> 01:29:48,708
like Reddit was the underdog,

2799
01:29:49,041 --> 01:29:51,625
dig was the cool, cool company.

2800
01:29:51,958 --> 01:29:53,250
Like, I don't know if you remember this,

2801
01:29:53,250 --> 01:29:54,708
they were like, they

2802
01:29:54,708 --> 01:29:55,666
had a lot of funding,

2803
01:29:55,916 --> 01:29:57,250
people would all go to dig,

2804
01:29:57,250 --> 01:29:58,583
it like would work really well.

2805
01:29:58,833 --> 01:29:59,916
And it just was awesome.

2806
01:30:01,250 --> 01:30:02,083
And they had a lot of

2807
01:30:02,083 --> 01:30:03,208
funding and like they had

2808
01:30:03,208 --> 01:30:06,625
the cool employees, you know,

2809
01:30:06,625 --> 01:30:08,000
they had everything going for them.

2810
01:30:08,000 --> 01:30:09,041
And then like, poof,

2811
01:30:09,041 --> 01:30:10,291
like it all fell apart

2812
01:30:10,500 --> 01:30:11,416
very quickly at dig.

2813
01:30:12,458 --> 01:30:15,375
Like somehow Reddit just

2814
01:30:15,375 --> 01:30:17,458
like would just keep going

2815
01:30:17,458 --> 01:30:19,125
and going and going and it just,

2816
01:30:20,375 --> 01:30:22,083
it built momentum in that company.

2817
01:30:22,625 --> 01:30:23,875
And then somehow they got

2818
01:30:23,875 --> 01:30:26,000
all the users like piling in

2819
01:30:26,000 --> 01:30:27,958
like using the company.

2820
01:30:27,958 --> 01:30:29,375
So like for me, like one of

2821
01:30:29,375 --> 01:30:30,708
the, one of the axioms is like,

2822
01:30:32,541 --> 01:30:34,625
you know, don't worry about competitors.

2823
01:30:35,000 --> 01:30:36,208
Like don't worry about competitors.

2824
01:30:36,750 --> 01:30:37,625
Another one is like,

2825
01:30:38,291 --> 01:30:39,750
try to be a good standing

2826
01:30:39,750 --> 01:30:40,750
with your co-founders.

2827
01:30:41,833 --> 01:30:43,458
You're a solo founder, Daniel, right?

2828
01:30:43,833 --> 01:30:44,666
No, I have a co-founder.

2829
01:30:44,958 --> 01:30:46,375
Oh, you have a, okay, I didn't know that.

2830
01:30:48,166 --> 01:30:50,500
You know, always try to

2831
01:30:50,500 --> 01:30:51,333
have like a good standing

2832
01:30:51,333 --> 01:30:52,041
with your co-founder.

2833
01:30:52,250 --> 01:30:54,625
And that means like, if

2834
01:30:54,625 --> 01:30:56,000
they want the button to be blue

2835
01:30:57,208 --> 01:30:57,958
and you know that this

2836
01:30:57,958 --> 01:30:58,958
is gonna like damage your

2837
01:30:59,041 --> 01:31:00,208
relationship, you really

2838
01:31:00,208 --> 01:31:01,208
care if the button's green.

2839
01:31:02,541 --> 01:31:04,875
Like fight the right battles.

2840
01:31:05,750 --> 01:31:05,833
Yeah.

2841
01:31:06,166 --> 01:31:08,541
You know, and I think a lot of people

2842
01:31:10,583 --> 01:31:11,458
fight the wrong battles.

2843
01:31:11,666 --> 01:31:12,458
And I'm like, you know,

2844
01:31:12,458 --> 01:31:14,916
I'm saying this for myself.

2845
01:31:15,125 --> 01:31:15,875
Like I need to do

2846
01:31:15,875 --> 01:31:18,208
this also on a, you know,

2847
01:31:18,416 --> 01:31:19,541
a weekly basis, a daily

2848
01:31:19,541 --> 01:31:21,583
basis to like just pick the right

2849
01:31:21,666 --> 01:31:24,291
battles to fight as

2850
01:31:24,291 --> 01:31:25,041
you build your company,

2851
01:31:25,041 --> 01:31:26,083
because your co-founder is in

2852
01:31:26,083 --> 01:31:27,083
it with you for the long haul.

2853
01:31:27,416 --> 01:31:28,708
Like make sure you're

2854
01:31:28,708 --> 01:31:29,875
taking care of them.

2855
01:31:29,875 --> 01:31:30,541
Like making sure them

2856
01:31:30,541 --> 01:31:31,666
feel like they're empowered.

2857
01:31:31,916 --> 01:31:33,416
Make sure they feel you're empowered.

2858
01:31:34,083 --> 01:31:37,375
Like with that empowerment, you really,

2859
01:31:39,583 --> 01:31:40,541
both can do really great

2860
01:31:40,541 --> 01:31:41,833
work without like bouncing

2861
01:31:41,833 --> 01:31:46,041
into each other, you know, every second.

2862
01:31:46,625 --> 01:31:48,708
And I mean, that's another, another tip.

2863
01:31:48,916 --> 01:31:49,708
I think, you know, if

2864
01:31:49,708 --> 01:31:50,958
you have a co-founder also,

2865
01:31:51,833 --> 01:31:52,666
maybe get executive

2866
01:31:52,666 --> 01:31:54,291
coaching, maybe go to like,

2867
01:31:54,666 --> 01:31:56,000
we went to Camp Y Combinator.

2868
01:31:56,875 --> 01:31:58,083
Next time you go bring your co-founder,

2869
01:31:58,250 --> 01:31:59,375
I don't know if they were there or that.

2870
01:31:59,416 --> 01:32:00,625
Oh, I told him it's

2871
01:32:00,625 --> 01:32:02,125
like required a tendency.

2872
01:32:02,125 --> 01:32:03,666
He said he's coming, he's excited.

2873
01:32:03,958 --> 01:32:05,500
This was our first time like me.

2874
01:32:05,708 --> 01:32:06,750
So he sent me in like

2875
01:32:06,750 --> 01:32:07,791
to test out the waters,

2876
01:32:08,041 --> 01:32:10,500
but it was such an amazing experience.

2877
01:32:10,833 --> 01:32:11,666
Yeah, the bonding with

2878
01:32:11,666 --> 01:32:13,208
your co-founder is essential.

2879
01:32:14,458 --> 01:32:15,125
But like, you know,

2880
01:32:16,000 --> 01:32:17,458
some of the best companies

2881
01:32:17,458 --> 01:32:18,416
like Apple and Google

2882
01:32:18,416 --> 01:32:19,583
did have executive coaches.

2883
01:32:19,791 --> 01:32:20,750
I don't know if you know that Twitter.

2884
01:32:21,375 --> 01:32:21,583
Yeah.

2885
01:32:22,125 --> 01:32:22,541
So like.

2886
01:32:23,041 --> 01:32:23,583
We have executive

2887
01:32:23,583 --> 01:32:24,833
coaches, my co-founder and I.

2888
01:32:25,750 --> 01:32:26,000
Awesome.

2889
01:32:26,291 --> 01:32:27,125
I mean, it's like being an

2890
01:32:27,125 --> 01:32:29,791
athlete, you have a coach.

2891
01:32:30,125 --> 01:32:31,208
It's like someone that's in

2892
01:32:31,208 --> 01:32:33,625
your corner who can help you.

2893
01:32:34,500 --> 01:32:35,291
I did want to talk a

2894
01:32:35,291 --> 01:32:36,750
little bit about, you know,

2895
01:32:37,791 --> 01:32:38,291
the school.

2896
01:32:38,958 --> 01:32:40,666
Because I went to Auburn University.

2897
01:32:41,208 --> 01:32:42,458
It's like a school, I think

2898
01:32:42,458 --> 01:32:43,875
there's like only one company

2899
01:32:44,000 --> 01:32:45,708
that went where the founders came.

2900
01:32:45,916 --> 01:32:47,041
I went through Y Combinator,

2901
01:32:47,041 --> 01:32:48,750
there were Auburn alumni before us.

2902
01:32:49,708 --> 01:32:50,833
And like going to

2903
01:32:50,833 --> 01:32:52,041
such like a small school

2904
01:32:52,041 --> 01:32:53,208
with not really much of an

2905
01:32:53,208 --> 01:32:54,375
entrepreneurship program,

2906
01:32:54,375 --> 01:32:56,000
fairly small relative to

2907
01:32:56,000 --> 01:32:57,333
some of the Ivy Leagues

2908
01:32:57,333 --> 01:32:58,708
of the world, I definitely

2909
01:32:58,708 --> 01:33:00,250
felt some imposter syndrome

2910
01:33:00,250 --> 01:33:01,625
going out there, like

2911
01:33:01,625 --> 01:33:02,666
trying to raise capital,

2912
01:33:02,666 --> 01:33:03,500
going through YC.

2913
01:33:04,833 --> 01:33:06,041
Like, did you feel that

2914
01:33:06,041 --> 01:33:07,166
having gone to Stony Brook?

2915
01:33:13,333 --> 01:33:15,250
I definitely think that there's like a,

2916
01:33:17,125 --> 01:33:18,833
a circle of people that have like,

2917
01:33:18,833 --> 01:33:20,708
I'd call it like magic fairy dust.

2918
01:33:21,333 --> 01:33:21,916
And I would say like,

2919
01:33:21,916 --> 01:33:22,916
if you went to Harvard,

2920
01:33:22,916 --> 01:33:24,791
you have this like big check of approval.

2921
01:33:25,625 --> 01:33:26,500
If you went to Stanford,

2922
01:33:26,500 --> 01:33:27,958
it's a big check of approval.

2923
01:33:28,791 --> 01:33:30,000
If you went to MIT, it's

2924
01:33:30,000 --> 01:33:31,166
a big check of approval.

2925
01:33:31,500 --> 01:33:32,583
So like, those are like some

2926
01:33:32,583 --> 01:33:34,250
of the best schools out there

2927
01:33:34,875 --> 01:33:37,166
that get a lot of love.

2928
01:33:37,416 --> 01:33:37,875
Signaling.

2929
01:33:38,416 --> 01:33:39,500
Yeah, signaling from

2930
01:33:39,500 --> 01:33:40,708
the investor community.

2931
01:33:41,208 --> 01:33:46,333
But like, I think the

2932
01:33:46,333 --> 01:33:47,708
entrepreneurial mindset,

2933
01:33:48,916 --> 01:33:50,541
and you know, having the

2934
01:33:50,541 --> 01:33:51,375
entrepreneurial mindset,

2935
01:33:51,666 --> 01:33:57,208
like it was not as

2936
01:33:57,208 --> 01:33:58,708
prominent when I went to school.

2937
01:33:58,708 --> 01:33:59,416
Again, like I'm dating

2938
01:33:59,416 --> 01:34:01,708
myself a little bit, but we,

2939
01:34:03,291 --> 01:34:06,166
you know, the schools now are changing.

2940
01:34:06,166 --> 01:34:06,666
I think they're all

2941
01:34:06,666 --> 01:34:07,791
changing where they're realizing,

2942
01:34:08,125 --> 01:34:10,041
oh, like students need to like figure out

2943
01:34:11,791 --> 01:34:12,708
how to maybe possibly

2944
01:34:12,708 --> 01:34:13,791
build their own business.

2945
01:34:13,791 --> 01:34:15,000
And we need to teach them that.

2946
01:34:16,250 --> 01:34:16,958
When I went to school,

2947
01:34:16,958 --> 01:34:17,958
that was not the case.

2948
01:34:18,375 --> 01:34:19,375
And it was like, how do

2949
01:34:19,375 --> 01:34:21,916
you educate the student

2950
01:34:22,458 --> 01:34:23,583
and get them to figure

2951
01:34:23,583 --> 01:34:24,541
out how to get a job?

2952
01:34:28,125 --> 01:34:29,458
Did I feel imposter syndrome?

2953
01:34:29,458 --> 01:34:30,583
The answer is no.

2954
01:34:31,166 --> 01:34:32,708
I think I always felt like,

2955
01:34:36,583 --> 01:34:39,583
it gave me an

2956
01:34:39,583 --> 01:34:41,916
advantage and a disadvantage

2957
01:34:42,166 --> 01:34:43,208
all at the same time.

2958
01:34:44,416 --> 01:34:46,500
Like I had the perspective and,

2959
01:34:48,083 --> 01:34:48,750
so I went to a state

2960
01:34:48,750 --> 01:34:50,166
school, Stony Brook University.

2961
01:34:51,041 --> 01:34:53,625
They basically, the tuition is minimal.

2962
01:34:53,916 --> 01:34:54,875
So I don't know if you know this,

2963
01:34:54,875 --> 01:34:56,250
like this school is funding,

2964
01:34:56,666 --> 01:34:58,083
like if you live in New York

2965
01:34:58,083 --> 01:34:59,083
and you go to the

2966
01:34:59,083 --> 01:35:01,500
school, they basically charge,

2967
01:35:01,791 --> 01:35:02,875
what is it, like, I

2968
01:35:02,875 --> 01:35:04,166
don't know, $6,000 a year.

2969
01:35:06,208 --> 01:35:09,541
So like, I was able to

2970
01:35:09,541 --> 01:35:10,458
come out of that school

2971
01:35:10,458 --> 01:35:13,750
with not as much debt as like people

2972
01:35:13,750 --> 01:35:15,458
that went to these like other schools.

2973
01:35:15,458 --> 01:35:16,500
Now, Auburn I hear is expensive.

2974
01:35:16,708 --> 01:35:17,833
I hear it's a really expensive school.

2975
01:35:18,666 --> 01:35:20,208
My brother was a professor

2976
01:35:20,208 --> 01:35:22,416
there actually for a while.

2977
01:35:23,041 --> 01:35:23,541
Oh, interesting.

2978
01:35:24,833 --> 01:35:26,333
But, you know, I think,

2979
01:35:28,875 --> 01:35:29,958
I think you should become

2980
01:35:29,958 --> 01:35:31,250
the advocate for your school.

2981
01:35:31,625 --> 01:35:33,500
Like because you went to I Combinator,

2982
01:35:33,625 --> 01:35:35,500
I think people just need to be educated.

2983
01:35:36,416 --> 01:35:38,375
In all schools that there is another path

2984
01:35:38,541 --> 01:35:39,458
becoming an entrepreneur,

2985
01:35:39,750 --> 01:35:41,416
like it's your responsibility

2986
01:35:41,708 --> 01:35:43,750
to go to Auburn, not to put

2987
01:35:43,750 --> 01:35:44,791
the pressure on you Daniel,

2988
01:35:44,791 --> 01:35:46,583
but it's like you kind of

2989
01:35:46,583 --> 01:35:48,166
were the first to go this path.

2990
01:35:49,166 --> 01:35:51,416
Like you need to teach other kids,

2991
01:35:51,416 --> 01:35:52,666
like there is another way,

2992
01:35:52,833 --> 01:35:55,250
like and it's not just going to work for,

2993
01:35:56,333 --> 01:35:56,791
you know, a large

2994
01:35:56,791 --> 01:35:58,166
corporation, there is another way

2995
01:35:58,166 --> 01:36:00,125
and you did it, like you're living it.

2996
01:36:00,708 --> 01:36:01,541
So I feel like,

2997
01:36:04,208 --> 01:36:07,416
I don't know, I do think it like,

2998
01:36:07,416 --> 01:36:09,083
if you go to one of those other schools,

2999
01:36:09,458 --> 01:36:11,000
you're loaded with debt, right?

3000
01:36:12,500 --> 01:36:13,833
So you're kind of at a disadvantage

3001
01:36:14,416 --> 01:36:16,916
and you feel entitled, like life is easy.

3002
01:36:17,166 --> 01:36:18,250
I went to Stanford.

3003
01:36:19,625 --> 01:36:21,250
I went to Stanford, life is

3004
01:36:21,250 --> 01:36:22,708
easy, but I have this debt,

3005
01:36:22,708 --> 01:36:23,750
but I deserve a good job

3006
01:36:23,750 --> 01:36:24,750
because I went to Stanford.

3007
01:36:25,708 --> 01:36:27,291
Like there's also that

3008
01:36:27,291 --> 01:36:28,833
mindset that comes out of those

3009
01:36:28,833 --> 01:36:30,708
schools sometimes, not all the time,

3010
01:36:30,708 --> 01:36:31,750
not everybody that comes

3011
01:36:31,750 --> 01:36:32,708
out of the schools like that,

3012
01:36:32,750 --> 01:36:36,416
but I think, you know,

3013
01:36:36,416 --> 01:36:37,375
the school I went to,

3014
01:36:37,583 --> 01:36:39,375
like most of the students struggled

3015
01:36:39,708 --> 01:36:40,541
and they didn't have

3016
01:36:40,541 --> 01:36:42,333
wealth and like they could pay

3017
01:36:42,333 --> 01:36:43,208
for the school and the

3018
01:36:43,208 --> 01:36:44,791
school like funded a lot of it.

3019
01:36:45,291 --> 01:36:46,708
If you get all these students educated,

3020
01:36:48,500 --> 01:36:49,958
I had a different advantage.

3021
01:36:50,208 --> 01:36:51,166
Like I didn't have all

3022
01:36:51,166 --> 01:36:52,083
of those student loans,

3023
01:36:52,083 --> 01:36:53,333
but it also gave me humble

3024
01:36:53,333 --> 01:36:54,666
beginnings to like actually

3025
01:36:54,666 --> 01:36:55,958
work hard to build the company.

3026
01:36:57,708 --> 01:36:58,458
You get a lot of these

3027
01:36:58,458 --> 01:37:00,083
like really, you know,

3028
01:37:00,208 --> 01:37:01,458
great graduate students that

3029
01:37:01,458 --> 01:37:02,625
come from these great schools

3030
01:37:02,875 --> 01:37:04,708
and they just fail because they don't

3031
01:37:04,708 --> 01:37:05,541
want to do the work.

3032
01:37:06,666 --> 01:37:06,875
Right?

3033
01:37:06,875 --> 01:37:07,666
You're given that

3034
01:37:07,666 --> 01:37:10,000
opportunity, don't fuck it up.

3035
01:37:11,875 --> 01:37:13,500
But you know, I do hear

3036
01:37:13,500 --> 01:37:16,416
that like a lot of investors

3037
01:37:16,416 --> 01:37:17,708
and the investor community, it's a

3038
01:37:17,708 --> 01:37:18,833
community is of like

3039
01:37:19,375 --> 01:37:20,458
pockets of people who went to

3040
01:37:20,458 --> 01:37:21,625
Harvard or pockets of people

3041
01:37:21,625 --> 01:37:22,291
who went to Stanford.

3042
01:37:22,291 --> 01:37:23,500
So like they trust

3043
01:37:23,500 --> 01:37:26,708
the founder more, right?

3044
01:37:26,708 --> 01:37:27,416
So you are at that

3045
01:37:27,416 --> 01:37:29,125
disadvantage where like you may have

3046
01:37:29,208 --> 01:37:30,958
like a firm, a VC firm that

3047
01:37:30,958 --> 01:37:32,375
like everyone went to Harvard

3048
01:37:34,208 --> 01:37:37,000
or MIT and you didn't go.

3049
01:37:37,208 --> 01:37:38,833
So why would they invest in you, Daniel?

3050
01:37:38,958 --> 01:37:40,125
Like why you versus

3051
01:37:40,125 --> 01:37:41,833
an MIT student, right?

3052
01:37:42,166 --> 01:37:43,958
Like because they went to

3053
01:37:43,958 --> 01:37:46,041
MIT, they know that the school

3054
01:37:46,041 --> 01:37:47,458
has a certain way of doing things.

3055
01:37:47,458 --> 01:37:48,958
It creates that trust system.

3056
01:37:52,000 --> 01:37:53,708
Sorry, go ahead.

3057
01:37:55,000 --> 01:37:56,208
I mean, did I ever

3058
01:37:56,208 --> 01:37:58,041
feel imposter syndrome?

3059
01:38:01,708 --> 01:38:02,166
Did you feel like you

3060
01:38:02,166 --> 01:38:03,125
were doing it on hard mode?

3061
01:38:03,583 --> 01:38:04,416
Like you, did you

3062
01:38:04,416 --> 01:38:05,500
feel like it was tougher?

3063
01:38:07,041 --> 01:38:08,750
Probably now just talking to you,

3064
01:38:08,750 --> 01:38:09,916
probably it was way harder.

3065
01:38:10,375 --> 01:38:12,583
Like because I didn't have that pedigree.

3066
01:38:13,208 --> 01:38:16,083
So there's probably some

3067
01:38:16,083 --> 01:38:17,625
questions of who I was.

3068
01:38:17,625 --> 01:38:18,666
So you have to maybe prove

3069
01:38:18,666 --> 01:38:20,000
yourself a little bit more.

3070
01:38:22,708 --> 01:38:23,666
What you were saying earlier

3071
01:38:23,666 --> 01:38:25,375
about like how universities

3072
01:38:25,791 --> 01:38:27,416
and schooling had traditionally been

3073
01:38:27,416 --> 01:38:28,583
designed to like create

3074
01:38:29,333 --> 01:38:30,583
great workers or employees.

3075
01:38:31,208 --> 01:38:32,708
Like do you, I've had like

3076
01:38:32,708 --> 01:38:35,250
a number of young aspiring

3077
01:38:35,333 --> 01:38:36,708
founders, some founders have already

3078
01:38:36,708 --> 01:38:38,250
started between like

3079
01:38:38,291 --> 01:38:40,125
17 and 20 years old,

3080
01:38:40,125 --> 01:38:41,000
they'll come to me and be like,

3081
01:38:41,041 --> 01:38:42,875
why should I even go to school?

3082
01:38:42,875 --> 01:38:44,333
I could just start the thing now.

3083
01:38:44,750 --> 01:38:46,166
What would you say to those founders?

3084
01:38:48,625 --> 01:38:50,083
I would say go to school.

3085
01:38:51,416 --> 01:38:53,291
I would say find a school

3086
01:38:53,291 --> 01:38:54,250
that's not gonna load you

3087
01:38:54,250 --> 01:38:54,875
full of debt.

3088
01:38:56,708 --> 01:38:57,875
Don't just go for the

3089
01:38:57,875 --> 01:39:01,291
degree, I think they call it like

3090
01:39:01,333 --> 01:39:02,083
collecting badges.

3091
01:39:02,333 --> 01:39:04,125
Like I went to Harvard, now I

3092
01:39:04,125 --> 01:39:05,500
got to go to work at Google.

3093
01:39:06,125 --> 01:39:06,916
I have these trophies.

3094
01:39:07,500 --> 01:39:08,750
You know, don't go to

3095
01:39:08,750 --> 01:39:09,875
school to get a trophy.

3096
01:39:10,333 --> 01:39:12,875
Like at the end of the day,

3097
01:39:12,875 --> 01:39:13,708
you're gonna meet your really

3098
01:39:13,708 --> 01:39:15,291
close friends in college and

3099
01:39:15,291 --> 01:39:16,125
you're gonna learn how to like

3100
01:39:16,125 --> 01:39:17,041
live on your own.

3101
01:39:18,208 --> 01:39:20,291
You're gonna experience the

3102
01:39:20,291 --> 01:39:21,375
world in a really good way.

3103
01:39:23,416 --> 01:39:24,500
I worry about people like

3104
01:39:24,500 --> 01:39:26,000
loading up on just debt.

3105
01:39:26,208 --> 01:39:27,208
That really concerns me

3106
01:39:27,208 --> 01:39:28,583
like when you trap a student.

3107
01:39:31,208 --> 01:39:31,958
You know, if you're gonna go

3108
01:39:31,958 --> 01:39:33,041
to school to become a doctor,

3109
01:39:35,916 --> 01:39:36,541
the amount of debt

3110
01:39:36,541 --> 01:39:38,208
that's loaded on you is a lot.

3111
01:39:39,000 --> 01:39:39,666
You better be sure

3112
01:39:39,666 --> 01:39:40,791
you're gonna become a doctor.

3113
01:39:41,333 --> 01:39:41,583
Yeah.

3114
01:39:42,708 --> 01:39:43,333
I know a lot of people

3115
01:39:43,333 --> 01:39:44,208
who don't wanna be doctors

3116
01:39:44,208 --> 01:39:44,791
and they come out of

3117
01:39:44,791 --> 01:39:45,458
school and they're like,

3118
01:39:45,625 --> 01:39:46,750
I just have the debt

3119
01:39:46,750 --> 01:39:48,875
now, I have no choice.

3120
01:39:49,958 --> 01:39:51,000
And they're really unhappy.

3121
01:39:51,458 --> 01:39:53,208
And I'm like, be really careful

3122
01:39:53,666 --> 01:39:54,250
because if you don't

3123
01:39:54,250 --> 01:39:55,833
even wanna do the job,

3124
01:39:56,708 --> 01:39:59,541
you went to school for like a, I love,

3125
01:39:59,958 --> 01:40:00,833
doctors are amazing.

3126
01:40:00,833 --> 01:40:01,500
It's like become a

3127
01:40:01,500 --> 01:40:02,750
medical professional, do like,

3128
01:40:03,000 --> 01:40:03,750
some people that wanna

3129
01:40:03,750 --> 01:40:04,708
do that, it's like good.

3130
01:40:04,708 --> 01:40:06,833
But when someone doesn't wanna do it,

3131
01:40:07,833 --> 01:40:09,125
and I see the defeat in

3132
01:40:09,125 --> 01:40:12,041
them from like all that debt,

3133
01:40:12,458 --> 01:40:14,750
it's crushing like on their soul and

3134
01:40:14,750 --> 01:40:15,750
like, it's not good.

3135
01:40:15,791 --> 01:40:18,375
But a 17 year old, I

3136
01:40:18,375 --> 01:40:19,541
would say just go to college

3137
01:40:21,208 --> 01:40:23,000
and you know, find really

3138
01:40:23,000 --> 01:40:24,166
good, fresh, smart friends.

3139
01:40:24,416 --> 01:40:26,000
Find the smartest people in that college,

3140
01:40:26,000 --> 01:40:27,208
become really good friends with them

3141
01:40:27,208 --> 01:40:28,666
and like have fun with people

3142
01:40:28,791 --> 01:40:30,333
and learn how to live on your own,

3143
01:40:30,333 --> 01:40:31,250
learn how to do your launch.

3144
01:40:32,333 --> 01:40:32,875
And then like, if you

3145
01:40:32,875 --> 01:40:33,875
wanna run a company,

3146
01:40:33,875 --> 01:40:35,125
do it while you're in school.

3147
01:40:36,125 --> 01:40:37,125
Learn, do it while

3148
01:40:37,125 --> 01:40:38,416
you're in school, like, right?

3149
01:40:38,875 --> 01:40:39,916
Like start your company

3150
01:40:39,916 --> 01:40:40,625
while you're in school.

3151
01:40:40,875 --> 01:40:44,000
Like I think Aaron from box, box.com,

3152
01:40:44,416 --> 01:40:46,083
he started his company in school

3153
01:40:46,083 --> 01:40:46,958
and like was building

3154
01:40:46,958 --> 01:40:48,083
it in school and like.

3155
01:40:48,291 --> 01:40:48,500
Yeah.

3156
01:40:49,291 --> 01:40:51,250
We started ours like when

3157
01:40:51,250 --> 01:40:52,333
my co-founder and I were 20,

3158
01:40:52,541 --> 01:40:53,791
like still like students

3159
01:40:53,791 --> 01:40:55,125
at Auburn, but I don't know.

3160
01:40:55,125 --> 01:40:57,375
I've met a few 18, 19 year olds

3161
01:40:57,375 --> 01:40:58,583
who are in their freshman year

3162
01:40:58,583 --> 01:40:59,833
or about to go into

3163
01:40:59,833 --> 01:41:00,833
college and they're like,

3164
01:41:01,083 --> 01:41:01,875
I know what I want.

3165
01:41:02,333 --> 01:41:03,583
I'm obsessed, I'm dedicated.

3166
01:41:04,125 --> 01:41:05,583
I want to do the startup life.

3167
01:41:05,916 --> 01:41:08,750
I refuse to accept that the default path,

3168
01:41:09,083 --> 01:41:10,291
just going through, you know,

3169
01:41:10,291 --> 01:41:11,625
the assembly line of education.

3170
01:41:12,458 --> 01:41:13,250
I've heard that before.

3171
01:41:13,791 --> 01:41:14,500
Like what would you say

3172
01:41:14,500 --> 01:41:16,208
to those young founders

3173
01:41:16,208 --> 01:41:17,541
who already know what they want

3174
01:41:18,125 --> 01:41:19,083
and perhaps could do

3175
01:41:19,083 --> 01:41:20,041
their laundry as well?

3176
01:41:21,500 --> 01:41:23,250
I couldn't have started my company

3177
01:41:23,375 --> 01:41:25,208
without the co-founder I found in school.

3178
01:41:26,458 --> 01:41:27,458
School isn't about the

3179
01:41:27,458 --> 01:41:29,208
education, it's about the network.

3180
01:41:30,666 --> 01:41:31,708
And it's like learning

3181
01:41:31,708 --> 01:41:34,208
who you can like work with

3182
01:41:34,458 --> 01:41:36,416
and like build things with and like

3183
01:41:36,750 --> 01:41:37,791
that network becomes a

3184
01:41:37,791 --> 01:41:39,458
lifelong network, honestly.

3185
01:41:40,125 --> 01:41:42,541
Like I talked to a lot

3186
01:41:42,541 --> 01:41:43,416
of people from college,

3187
01:41:43,666 --> 01:41:44,583
like I went to college,

3188
01:41:45,208 --> 01:41:46,750
have really good friends from college.

3189
01:41:48,000 --> 01:41:48,791
That network is a

3190
01:41:48,791 --> 01:41:49,833
really good support system

3191
01:41:49,833 --> 01:41:51,458
to like a sounding board.

3192
01:41:52,208 --> 01:41:53,750
Now that's why I'm

3193
01:41:53,750 --> 01:41:55,000
concerned like when people go

3194
01:41:55,000 --> 01:41:56,583
for the trophy name,

3195
01:41:56,916 --> 01:41:58,166
like I'm going to go to MIT,

3196
01:41:59,333 --> 01:42:01,000
just be prepared to pay that debt.

3197
01:42:01,333 --> 01:42:02,208
Like that's the problem

3198
01:42:02,208 --> 01:42:03,708
when you take a trophy name.

3199
01:42:04,625 --> 01:42:06,166
You know, Berkeley I hear has

3200
01:42:06,166 --> 01:42:08,625
a cheaper, you know, degree.

3201
01:42:08,625 --> 01:42:10,875
It's like, that's where I get scared

3202
01:42:10,875 --> 01:42:11,541
is where people are

3203
01:42:11,541 --> 01:42:12,458
like chasing trophies.

3204
01:42:12,708 --> 01:42:13,250
And I'm like, you're

3205
01:42:13,250 --> 01:42:14,291
not thinking straight,

3206
01:42:14,625 --> 01:42:16,541
like go there to get a network of people.

3207
01:42:17,291 --> 01:42:18,000
So like for me, I went

3208
01:42:18,000 --> 01:42:19,125
to Stony Brook University

3209
01:42:19,125 --> 01:42:22,333
and I capitalized like

3210
01:42:22,333 --> 01:42:23,333
crazy on the network.

3211
01:42:23,333 --> 01:42:24,208
And it wasn't, it was

3212
01:42:24,208 --> 01:42:25,291
just like me having fun,

3213
01:42:25,458 --> 01:42:28,041
finding my way, like I

3214
01:42:28,041 --> 01:42:28,791
would have never done

3215
01:42:28,791 --> 01:42:29,708
computer science if I

3216
01:42:29,708 --> 01:42:30,583
didn't go to Stony Brook.

3217
01:42:31,625 --> 01:42:33,750
Like I went to a school that was very

3218
01:42:33,750 --> 01:42:34,791
computer science heavy

3219
01:42:35,583 --> 01:42:36,625
and I was like, this is

3220
01:42:36,625 --> 01:42:38,000
cool, it's like challenging,

3221
01:42:38,000 --> 01:42:38,541
it's different.

3222
01:42:39,333 --> 01:42:40,208
So like you're going to

3223
01:42:40,208 --> 01:42:43,458
learn like all different

3224
01:42:43,458 --> 01:42:44,208
sorts of things.

3225
01:42:45,625 --> 01:42:47,833
But if someone is dead set

3226
01:42:47,833 --> 01:42:49,208
on starting a company, like,

3227
01:42:51,666 --> 01:42:54,541
okay, I mean, maybe try

3228
01:42:54,541 --> 01:42:56,583
school, like, I don't know,

3229
01:42:56,833 --> 01:42:57,833
you know, the two year

3230
01:42:57,833 --> 01:42:59,041
degrees, associate degrees,

3231
01:42:59,041 --> 01:43:00,583
like you could get associate degree.

3232
01:43:02,166 --> 01:43:03,166
I don't know, there's no

3233
01:43:03,166 --> 01:43:04,166
right or wrong answer there,

3234
01:43:04,166 --> 01:43:06,916
but I worry about kids who

3235
01:43:06,916 --> 01:43:08,666
don't even get that experience.

3236
01:43:09,583 --> 01:43:10,041
And you went to

3237
01:43:10,041 --> 01:43:11,708
college, Daniel, so you know,

3238
01:43:11,708 --> 01:43:13,541
it's like you met your co-founder there.

3239
01:43:14,125 --> 01:43:15,750
I met him in sixth grade actually.

3240
01:43:16,166 --> 01:43:17,375
Oh, sixth grade, okay, sixth grade.

3241
01:43:18,208 --> 01:43:19,666
It was school, it was still school.

3242
01:43:19,708 --> 01:43:20,291
It was still school.

3243
01:43:21,000 --> 01:43:22,041
It was like networks in

3244
01:43:22,041 --> 01:43:23,166
school, it's all the networking.

3245
01:43:24,208 --> 01:43:24,958
You get to learn how to

3246
01:43:24,958 --> 01:43:26,333
socialize, you know how to like

3247
01:43:26,541 --> 01:43:27,583
not piss people off.

3248
01:43:28,125 --> 01:43:31,041
Yeah, yeah, like I, you

3249
01:43:31,041 --> 01:43:32,583
know, this is an argument

3250
01:43:32,875 --> 01:43:33,750
that I gave when I was

3251
01:43:33,750 --> 01:43:35,000
speaking to one such founder.

3252
01:43:35,000 --> 01:43:36,458
Like I met a founder who dropped out

3253
01:43:36,458 --> 01:43:37,458
freshman year of college.

3254
01:43:38,208 --> 01:43:39,750
I met him when he was like 23, 24,

3255
01:43:39,750 --> 01:43:40,541
and I could feel like

3256
01:43:40,541 --> 01:43:42,041
the lack of socialization,

3257
01:43:42,041 --> 01:43:42,708
not having gone

3258
01:43:42,708 --> 01:43:43,708
through that rite of passage.

3259
01:43:44,458 --> 01:43:45,041
Perhaps I met a

3260
01:43:45,041 --> 01:43:46,208
particularly immature fellow,

3261
01:43:46,625 --> 01:43:47,541
but like, I think

3262
01:43:47,541 --> 01:43:48,666
there's something you learn

3263
01:43:48,666 --> 01:43:51,000
where like society like molds you into

3264
01:43:51,000 --> 01:43:52,000
being more acceptable

3265
01:43:52,000 --> 01:43:53,708
and more fluid or better

3266
01:43:53,708 --> 01:43:55,000
social chameleon, perhaps.

3267
01:43:56,625 --> 01:43:57,625
So yeah, I could see

3268
01:43:57,625 --> 01:43:58,416
that side of it also.

3269
01:43:58,875 --> 01:43:59,958
What about like with the

3270
01:43:59,958 --> 01:44:01,625
actual things you learned

3271
01:44:01,791 --> 01:44:03,125
from like your coursework,

3272
01:44:03,291 --> 01:44:04,750
like psychology and computer science,

3273
01:44:05,625 --> 01:44:06,500
did that help you become

3274
01:44:06,500 --> 01:44:07,458
more successful in life

3275
01:44:07,583 --> 01:44:09,250
and as a founder, or was

3276
01:44:09,250 --> 01:44:10,708
it more about the network

3277
01:44:11,000 --> 01:44:13,166
as like first place in terms of value?

3278
01:44:13,875 --> 01:44:14,916
I mean, I think the network

3279
01:44:14,916 --> 01:44:16,875
was the most important part.

3280
01:44:17,166 --> 01:44:18,583
And then, you know, of course the

3281
01:44:18,583 --> 01:44:19,625
schooling was important.

3282
01:44:20,083 --> 01:44:24,625
It helped, but I think the

3283
01:44:24,625 --> 01:44:26,208
network like was insurmountably

3284
01:44:26,208 --> 01:44:29,125
more important where you

3285
01:44:29,125 --> 01:44:30,666
just get a really good group

3286
01:44:30,666 --> 01:44:31,166
of people.

3287
01:44:31,375 --> 01:44:33,208
And this is the thing about Y Combinator,

3288
01:44:33,583 --> 01:44:35,083
you get that group of people when you

3289
01:44:35,083 --> 01:44:36,041
plug into that network,

3290
01:44:36,208 --> 01:44:37,916
they have a really smart community

3291
01:44:38,708 --> 01:44:40,875
of the most smartest people in the world,

3292
01:44:41,583 --> 01:44:42,958
like brainstorming.

3293
01:44:43,208 --> 01:44:44,500
Schools are that, like

3294
01:44:44,500 --> 01:44:45,458
you don't realize like,

3295
01:44:45,458 --> 01:44:46,708
if you go out and you

3296
01:44:46,708 --> 01:44:47,958
don't get into Y Combinator

3297
01:44:47,958 --> 01:44:48,916
and you don't go to

3298
01:44:48,916 --> 01:44:50,958
school, you're on your own

3299
01:44:50,958 --> 01:44:52,166
and there's no network to

3300
01:44:52,166 --> 01:44:54,041
like bounce ideas off of

3301
01:44:54,041 --> 01:44:56,791
and you're kind of struggling, you know.

3302
01:44:57,083 --> 01:44:58,750
I spoke to one founder super,

3303
01:44:59,500 --> 01:45:01,041
like one of the best founders

3304
01:45:01,041 --> 01:45:02,416
I ever met, guy's brilliant.

3305
01:45:04,000 --> 01:45:04,625
He went to Harvard.

3306
01:45:04,916 --> 01:45:06,000
He's like, I went there for the network.

3307
01:45:06,208 --> 01:45:06,875
Then he went to Y

3308
01:45:06,875 --> 01:45:08,500
Combinator, went there for the network.

3309
01:45:08,500 --> 01:45:09,250
Then he went to Google.

3310
01:45:09,625 --> 01:45:10,333
And he's like, I went to

3311
01:45:10,333 --> 01:45:11,250
Google for the network.

3312
01:45:12,583 --> 01:45:13,416
And it blew my mind.

3313
01:45:13,416 --> 01:45:14,208
He didn't go work.

3314
01:45:14,458 --> 01:45:15,625
He didn't do it for the money.

3315
01:45:15,625 --> 01:45:17,000
He's like, I need to

3316
01:45:17,000 --> 01:45:18,000
know who these people are

3317
01:45:18,000 --> 01:45:19,625
so I can learn from them.

3318
01:45:20,250 --> 01:45:21,208
And he's one of the

3319
01:45:21,208 --> 01:45:22,833
smartest founders I know.

3320
01:45:23,666 --> 01:45:25,041
Guys raised hundreds

3321
01:45:25,041 --> 01:45:26,000
of millions of dollars.

3322
01:45:26,916 --> 01:45:28,500
And I'm like, I didn't

3323
01:45:28,500 --> 01:45:29,708
think about Google that way.

3324
01:45:31,583 --> 01:45:33,208
He thought of it differently than me.

3325
01:45:33,208 --> 01:45:34,666
And I was like, that blew my mind.

3326
01:45:34,708 --> 01:45:35,583
I was like, interesting.

3327
01:45:36,916 --> 01:45:38,125
So like Google is in

3328
01:45:38,125 --> 01:45:39,958
itself like a network of people.

3329
01:45:41,958 --> 01:45:44,333
The Googler community is like another top

3330
01:45:44,333 --> 01:45:47,208
of smart people out there.

3331
01:45:48,208 --> 01:45:50,125
But can everyone be that way?

3332
01:45:50,125 --> 01:45:50,833
The answer is no.

3333
01:45:51,333 --> 01:45:53,625
Like if you quit college,

3334
01:45:53,625 --> 01:45:54,541
you don't even go to college.

3335
01:45:54,541 --> 01:45:55,875
You may not think of things that way.

3336
01:45:55,875 --> 01:45:56,666
You may just like be

3337
01:45:56,666 --> 01:45:58,083
sitting in your office alone

3338
01:46:00,166 --> 01:46:02,416
and just like hiding and not actually

3339
01:46:02,416 --> 01:46:03,291
showing people product.

3340
01:46:03,541 --> 01:46:04,333
You have to get out

3341
01:46:04,333 --> 01:46:05,583
there and show people product

3342
01:46:05,583 --> 01:46:07,416
like all day long.

3343
01:46:07,791 --> 01:46:08,750
Like you have to talk about it.

3344
01:46:08,750 --> 01:46:09,541
You have to demo it.

3345
01:46:09,541 --> 01:46:10,166
You have to basically

3346
01:46:10,166 --> 01:46:11,583
get feedback and iterate.

3347
01:46:12,458 --> 01:46:13,458
You don't go to college.

3348
01:46:13,708 --> 01:46:14,708
You don't socialize.

3349
01:46:14,708 --> 01:46:15,583
It worries me.

3350
01:46:15,791 --> 01:46:16,083
That's all.

3351
01:46:16,666 --> 01:46:19,541
I don't think it's true of everybody,

3352
01:46:19,708 --> 01:46:20,875
but like even Mark Zuckerberg,

3353
01:46:20,875 --> 01:46:22,208
he met his co-founders in college.

3354
01:46:24,083 --> 01:46:25,250
Like Larry and Sergey met their

3355
01:46:25,250 --> 01:46:26,208
co-founders in college.

3356
01:46:27,708 --> 01:46:29,708
Like Steve Jobs met his co-founder

3357
01:46:30,083 --> 01:46:31,375
because they live next to each other.

3358
01:46:31,375 --> 01:46:33,208
I mean, that's not quite a network,

3359
01:46:33,333 --> 01:46:34,125
but still it was like

3360
01:46:34,125 --> 01:46:37,166
they hung out together a lot.

3361
01:46:39,916 --> 01:46:42,166
Yeah, I think the five people

3362
01:46:42,166 --> 01:46:43,375
you surround yourself most,

3363
01:46:43,833 --> 01:46:44,791
like I think like the

3364
01:46:44,791 --> 01:46:46,000
networks you get into,

3365
01:46:46,000 --> 01:46:47,375
I think that's absolutely huge.

3366
01:46:48,083 --> 01:46:49,291
And I pushed my little

3367
01:46:49,291 --> 01:46:50,916
brother to really like get into

3368
01:46:50,916 --> 01:46:51,791
like a great school.

3369
01:46:52,208 --> 01:46:52,750
It's like trying to

3370
01:46:52,750 --> 01:46:54,041
capitalize on a good network.

3371
01:46:54,958 --> 01:46:56,291
I hadn't, I didn't, you know,

3372
01:46:56,291 --> 01:46:56,875
I didn't prioritize

3373
01:46:56,875 --> 01:46:58,208
education the way he did.

3374
01:46:58,750 --> 01:46:59,833
And I see him already

3375
01:46:59,833 --> 01:47:01,458
reaping the benefits.

3376
01:47:03,875 --> 01:47:04,958
Before wrapping up,

3377
01:47:04,958 --> 01:47:06,500
I wanted to ask like,

3378
01:47:06,500 --> 01:47:07,875
if there was like a wild

3379
01:47:07,875 --> 01:47:09,750
story you could share with us

3380
01:47:09,750 --> 01:47:11,041
that you maybe haven't

3381
01:47:11,041 --> 01:47:12,666
shared with anyone before,

3382
01:47:13,625 --> 01:47:14,500
that, you know, it

3383
01:47:14,500 --> 01:47:15,416
could be startup related.

3384
01:47:15,625 --> 01:47:16,833
It could just be life related.

3385
01:47:17,916 --> 01:47:19,083
Anything you could share that's like

3386
01:47:19,083 --> 01:47:20,500
really out of left field.

3387
01:47:22,208 --> 01:47:24,750
Trying to kind of have a crazy story.

3388
01:47:28,583 --> 01:47:29,916
I mean, I've been to

3389
01:47:29,916 --> 01:47:31,291
the White House like a--

3390
01:47:31,916 --> 01:47:32,208
Wow.

3391
01:47:32,958 --> 01:47:34,333
Yeah, that's a crazy one.

3392
01:47:34,583 --> 01:47:35,750
What was that all about?

3393
01:47:36,416 --> 01:47:38,125
Yeah, so I mean, in my first company,

3394
01:47:38,125 --> 01:47:39,541
we were really innovative.

3395
01:47:39,750 --> 01:47:41,208
We built the first API,

3396
01:47:43,125 --> 01:47:43,958
not the first, we

3397
01:47:43,958 --> 01:47:45,875
built one of the first APIs

3398
01:47:46,208 --> 01:47:48,166
in healthcare for medical records.

3399
01:47:49,416 --> 01:47:51,375
And the White House was super interested

3400
01:47:51,375 --> 01:47:52,625
in like what we were doing

3401
01:47:52,625 --> 01:47:54,583
and we were very innovative.

3402
01:47:55,500 --> 01:47:57,750
And, you know, the

3403
01:47:57,750 --> 01:47:58,791
White House invited us just

3404
01:47:59,041 --> 01:48:00,291
to just sit in a round table

3405
01:48:01,208 --> 01:48:02,041
with a bunch of other

3406
01:48:02,041 --> 01:48:03,125
people in the industry.

3407
01:48:04,375 --> 01:48:05,333
And it was Joe Biden.

3408
01:48:05,625 --> 01:48:06,666
So Joe Biden was there.

3409
01:48:06,666 --> 01:48:07,541
He was the vice president

3410
01:48:07,541 --> 01:48:08,500
and then Obama was the

3411
01:48:08,500 --> 01:48:09,458
president at the time.

3412
01:48:09,458 --> 01:48:11,125
But I remember thinking

3413
01:48:11,125 --> 01:48:13,125
like, how did I get here?

3414
01:48:13,791 --> 01:48:14,458
That's pretty cool.

3415
01:48:14,708 --> 01:48:16,625
Like little room and being like,

3416
01:48:16,625 --> 01:48:17,791
I don't know how I'm in

3417
01:48:17,791 --> 01:48:19,083
this room, but this is awesome.

3418
01:48:20,041 --> 01:48:21,500
I felt really grateful, but

3419
01:48:21,500 --> 01:48:22,583
at the same time I was like,

3420
01:48:22,583 --> 01:48:25,291
I was just trying to make a living.

3421
01:48:25,916 --> 01:48:27,958
I built some real innovative.

3422
01:48:27,958 --> 01:48:28,916
And now I'm in this room with

3423
01:48:28,916 --> 01:48:30,541
all these really smart people

3424
01:48:30,666 --> 01:48:31,541
that run the whole country.

3425
01:48:32,833 --> 01:48:35,708
And Joe Biden was super interesting.

3426
01:48:35,708 --> 01:48:38,083
He was very passionate about healthcare.

3427
01:48:39,458 --> 01:48:40,333
And, you know, I didn't

3428
01:48:40,333 --> 01:48:41,958
know this, but his son died.

3429
01:48:42,916 --> 01:48:44,625
And he was talking about how his son

3430
01:48:44,750 --> 01:48:45,916
couldn't get his medical records.

3431
01:48:46,583 --> 01:48:47,750
When his son was really ill,

3432
01:48:47,750 --> 01:48:48,250
he couldn't get his

3433
01:48:48,250 --> 01:48:49,333
medical records fast enough

3434
01:48:49,333 --> 01:48:50,541
between two different places.

3435
01:48:51,416 --> 01:48:52,750
So it caused a

3436
01:48:52,750 --> 01:48:56,416
passion in the medical side

3437
01:48:56,458 --> 01:48:59,791
that I didn't know

3438
01:48:59,791 --> 01:49:01,625
that about like, you know,

3439
01:49:01,750 --> 01:49:03,625
him, he became president now, you know,

3440
01:49:04,083 --> 01:49:05,375
now he's president at the time.

3441
01:49:05,375 --> 01:49:07,166
He was vice president of like, wow,

3442
01:49:07,166 --> 01:49:09,541
that was a big passion of his.

3443
01:49:10,708 --> 01:49:11,291
That's crazy.

3444
01:49:11,583 --> 01:49:12,916
That was a crazy story.

3445
01:49:12,916 --> 01:49:14,125
Like I remember thinking I

3446
01:49:14,125 --> 01:49:15,458
could go to the White House

3447
01:49:15,458 --> 01:49:16,000
in jeans.

3448
01:49:17,166 --> 01:49:17,791
They told me no.

3449
01:49:18,125 --> 01:49:19,041
And I'm like, oh God,

3450
01:49:19,375 --> 01:49:20,125
I don't know this dude.

3451
01:49:20,375 --> 01:49:21,083
I gotta get a suit.

3452
01:49:22,583 --> 01:49:23,333
I literally went out

3453
01:49:23,333 --> 01:49:24,041
to a store and was like,

3454
01:49:24,041 --> 01:49:24,958
let me go buy a suit

3455
01:49:24,958 --> 01:49:26,041
because I'm going to go the white.

3456
01:49:26,916 --> 01:49:28,250
That has gotta be the most

3457
01:49:28,250 --> 01:49:30,541
like Sparta founder thing.

3458
01:49:31,000 --> 01:49:31,916
It was required.

3459
01:49:32,166 --> 01:49:32,833
You gotta wear a suit

3460
01:49:32,833 --> 01:49:33,583
when you go in there.

3461
01:49:33,791 --> 01:49:34,625
I had no idea.

3462
01:49:35,958 --> 01:49:36,541
That's a bummer.

3463
01:49:36,791 --> 01:49:37,416
That's a bummer.

3464
01:49:37,458 --> 01:49:38,416
Just stroll into the

3465
01:49:38,416 --> 01:49:39,500
White House in some jeans.

3466
01:49:40,625 --> 01:49:41,583
They don't like that.

3467
01:49:41,958 --> 01:49:43,416
And they're like, I

3468
01:49:43,416 --> 01:49:44,541
remember writing an email like,

3469
01:49:44,541 --> 01:49:45,375
can I come with jeans?

3470
01:49:45,375 --> 01:49:45,916
Is that okay?

3471
01:49:46,291 --> 01:49:47,541
And they're like, no, please wear a suit.

3472
01:49:48,208 --> 01:49:50,000
I'm like, okay, I gotta

3473
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:51,875
get, gotta go buy a suit.

3474
01:49:54,333 --> 01:49:55,000
That's incredible.

3475
01:49:55,583 --> 01:49:56,833
That's a great story.

3476
01:49:57,250 --> 01:49:59,041
That's a great dinner story for sure.

3477
01:50:00,166 --> 01:50:03,708
So you gotta talk to Joe about healthcare

3478
01:50:04,083 --> 01:50:06,166
and healthcare still seems

3479
01:50:06,166 --> 01:50:08,000
quite broken here in the US.

3480
01:50:08,541 --> 01:50:10,375
And you're quite the expert on the space

3481
01:50:10,541 --> 01:50:11,958
having spent more than

3482
01:50:11,958 --> 01:50:14,208
a decade working in it.

3483
01:50:14,208 --> 01:50:15,625
Is there anything that you

3484
01:50:15,625 --> 01:50:16,708
think we could do to fix it,

3485
01:50:17,083 --> 01:50:18,000
to perhaps make it more

3486
01:50:18,000 --> 01:50:19,208
affordable, more effective,

3487
01:50:20,208 --> 01:50:22,333
like for the average American?

3488
01:50:23,833 --> 01:50:25,791
From a tech lens, perhaps, if possible.

3489
01:50:27,166 --> 01:50:29,166
I mean, it's very complicated.

3490
01:50:29,375 --> 01:50:30,708
There's so many moving parts.

3491
01:50:33,958 --> 01:50:39,833
One is I do think

3492
01:50:39,833 --> 01:50:41,291
things are getting digitized,

3493
01:50:41,291 --> 01:50:43,791
which is meaning for the first time,

3494
01:50:43,791 --> 01:50:45,375
data is really moving

3495
01:50:45,375 --> 01:50:47,375
well between industries

3496
01:50:47,666 --> 01:50:49,416
and one hospital can

3497
01:50:49,416 --> 01:50:50,416
send data to another.

3498
01:50:50,416 --> 01:50:52,291
And it is a struggle still in that sense,

3499
01:50:52,416 --> 01:50:54,666
but I think insurance

3500
01:50:54,666 --> 01:50:56,625
companies, it's still a mess.

3501
01:50:57,000 --> 01:50:59,583
I am worried that the insurance rate,

3502
01:51:00,333 --> 01:51:01,375
and everybody has to pay

3503
01:51:01,375 --> 01:51:02,583
more every year in insurance,

3504
01:51:03,500 --> 01:51:05,166
it's going up at such a rapid pace.

3505
01:51:05,375 --> 01:51:08,125
I'm like, I don't think

3506
01:51:08,125 --> 01:51:09,416
it's sustainable forever.

3507
01:51:10,041 --> 01:51:11,041
The insurance companies are,

3508
01:51:11,916 --> 01:51:12,958
they raise their rates every

3509
01:51:12,958 --> 01:51:15,291
year by 15%, whatever it is.

3510
01:51:15,291 --> 01:51:16,833
I'm like, at some point, it's

3511
01:51:16,833 --> 01:51:17,833
gonna be all of your salary.

3512
01:51:19,541 --> 01:51:21,125
You can't raise people's

3513
01:51:21,125 --> 01:51:22,375
rates that fast forever.

3514
01:51:22,875 --> 01:51:23,750
They're gonna start to

3515
01:51:23,750 --> 01:51:25,583
not have health insurance.

3516
01:51:28,958 --> 01:51:31,208
So, how do you fix that?

3517
01:51:31,208 --> 01:51:31,666
I don't know.

3518
01:51:32,083 --> 01:51:34,375
I mean, there's so many different areas

3519
01:51:34,375 --> 01:51:35,375
to tackle with this.

3520
01:51:37,791 --> 01:51:38,625
I mean, I do think that

3521
01:51:38,625 --> 01:51:39,583
there's real opportunities

3522
01:51:39,916 --> 01:51:41,625
out there with AI, right?

3523
01:51:41,916 --> 01:51:44,458
And that means medical

3524
01:51:44,458 --> 01:51:45,666
billing is really complex.

3525
01:51:46,125 --> 01:51:49,208
Like, use some AI to fix some of that,

3526
01:51:49,208 --> 01:51:50,125
make it less complex.

3527
01:51:51,083 --> 01:51:53,291
Like, the human body is really complex.

3528
01:51:53,750 --> 01:51:55,166
Like, doctors only have

3529
01:51:55,166 --> 01:51:56,291
so much time with a person.

3530
01:51:57,125 --> 01:51:59,166
Use AI to like, figure

3531
01:51:59,166 --> 01:52:01,083
out how to help people.

3532
01:52:05,416 --> 01:52:06,666
You know, there are so

3533
01:52:06,666 --> 01:52:07,541
many different use cases,

3534
01:52:07,791 --> 01:52:09,625
like, you know, x-rays,

3535
01:52:09,625 --> 01:52:11,125
you have to have a

3536
01:52:11,125 --> 01:52:12,750
radiologist look at an x-ray.

3537
01:52:13,041 --> 01:52:14,041
Like, I do hear really

3538
01:52:14,041 --> 01:52:15,041
great things about like,

3539
01:52:15,041 --> 01:52:16,250
AI determining if

3540
01:52:16,250 --> 01:52:17,666
somebody can has cancer or not.

3541
01:52:18,875 --> 01:52:19,708
So, you know, instead

3542
01:52:19,708 --> 01:52:20,666
of having a radiologist

3543
01:52:20,666 --> 01:52:22,958
look at each of these like x-rays,

3544
01:52:23,166 --> 01:52:25,458
you can have it at

3545
01:52:25,458 --> 01:52:26,541
the fraction of a cost,

3546
01:52:26,916 --> 01:52:28,875
like AI just basically

3547
01:52:28,875 --> 01:52:30,333
giving you an answer in that.

3548
01:52:32,583 --> 01:52:33,541
Spoke to one founder,

3549
01:52:33,833 --> 01:52:34,708
and he's really passionate

3550
01:52:34,708 --> 01:52:36,166
about like, detecting cancer.

3551
01:52:37,791 --> 01:52:39,041
You do a cancer screening

3552
01:52:39,041 --> 01:52:40,625
every year for like $150.

3553
01:52:40,875 --> 01:52:42,083
He's like, I can figure this out.

3554
01:52:42,375 --> 01:52:44,958
So like, if you get people like that,

3555
01:52:45,333 --> 01:52:50,291
that can detect cancer for 150 bucks,

3556
01:52:50,541 --> 01:52:51,541
everybody would pay for that.

3557
01:52:51,875 --> 01:52:53,083
Like, you probably pay

3558
01:52:53,083 --> 01:52:54,083
for it for your parents.

3559
01:52:54,083 --> 01:52:55,083
You'd be like, hey, you're gonna go get

3560
01:52:55,083 --> 01:52:55,791
your cancer screening.

3561
01:52:55,791 --> 01:52:56,625
I'm paying for it, dad.

3562
01:52:57,000 --> 01:52:58,958
Like, you know, it's like,

3563
01:52:59,000 --> 01:53:00,583
like there's more empowerment.

3564
01:53:01,916 --> 01:53:03,708
So, some of it is technology

3565
01:53:03,708 --> 01:53:05,500
can help in some of those ways.

3566
01:53:05,791 --> 01:53:07,208
But, you know, I

3567
01:53:07,208 --> 01:53:10,000
think some of these areas

3568
01:53:10,250 --> 01:53:11,166
are really complex, like

3569
01:53:11,166 --> 01:53:12,333
the insurance company issue.

3570
01:53:12,708 --> 01:53:14,416
Like, they can't keep

3571
01:53:14,416 --> 01:53:15,208
raising their rates.

3572
01:53:15,208 --> 01:53:15,708
It's crazy.

3573
01:53:16,333 --> 01:53:17,333
If they keep doing it,

3574
01:53:17,916 --> 01:53:19,041
and everybody's income

3575
01:53:19,041 --> 01:53:20,333
level is like just going up

3576
01:53:20,333 --> 01:53:22,250
at like whatever 4%, 5%, 6%.

3577
01:53:23,375 --> 01:53:24,083
Yet if an insurance

3578
01:53:24,083 --> 01:53:24,916
company is raising their rate

3579
01:53:24,916 --> 01:53:28,375
by 15% a year, something's gonna happen.

3580
01:53:29,208 --> 01:53:30,250
At some point, I'm like,

3581
01:53:30,250 --> 01:53:31,583
oof, this is gonna be crazy.

3582
01:53:31,583 --> 01:53:32,250
Maybe new insurance

3583
01:53:32,250 --> 01:53:33,083
companies will compete.

3584
01:53:33,500 --> 01:53:34,000
I don't know.

3585
01:53:34,000 --> 01:53:34,666
I'd like make

3586
01:53:34,666 --> 01:53:35,791
everybody change everything.

3587
01:53:37,333 --> 01:53:38,208
But something's gotta change.

3588
01:53:39,000 --> 01:53:40,083
This trajectory definitely

3589
01:53:40,083 --> 01:53:41,291
doesn't seem sustainable.

3590
01:53:42,666 --> 01:53:43,750
Any suggestions you might

3591
01:53:43,750 --> 01:53:45,708
give to founders out there

3592
01:53:45,708 --> 01:53:46,916
trying to solve this problem?

3593
01:53:48,000 --> 01:53:48,875
Where to start, perhaps?

3594
01:54:00,000 --> 01:54:01,166
I don't know, honestly.

3595
01:54:01,166 --> 01:54:03,166
I'm like, it's such a, I'd

3596
01:54:03,166 --> 01:54:04,333
have to think about it way more,

3597
01:54:04,333 --> 01:54:05,083
but it's just one of

3598
01:54:05,083 --> 01:54:06,458
the, it's definitely an area

3599
01:54:06,458 --> 01:54:07,458
I'm like, oh, this is...

3600
01:54:08,583 --> 01:54:09,333
It's BHAG.

3601
01:54:10,208 --> 01:54:10,375
Yeah.

3602
01:54:10,416 --> 01:54:10,750
A area.

3603
01:54:11,375 --> 01:54:12,708
Yeah, it's really complex.

3604
01:54:12,916 --> 01:54:13,416
And I'm like, maybe

3605
01:54:13,416 --> 01:54:16,791
it's not a startup idea.

3606
01:54:17,291 --> 01:54:18,750
Maybe it's a bigger issue

3607
01:54:18,750 --> 01:54:20,333
across the United States.

3608
01:54:21,083 --> 01:54:22,208
Yeah, policy, perhaps.

3609
01:54:22,625 --> 01:54:23,833
Yeah, yeah, maybe

3610
01:54:23,833 --> 01:54:24,625
there's something there.

3611
01:54:25,833 --> 01:54:26,666
I'll give you an example.

3612
01:54:29,500 --> 01:54:30,583
I thought about using

3613
01:54:30,583 --> 01:54:33,250
what an NFT represents.

3614
01:54:33,625 --> 01:54:36,333
Can you use the NFT to create something

3615
01:54:36,583 --> 01:54:36,958
like a birth

3616
01:54:36,958 --> 01:54:39,875
certificate, death certificate,

3617
01:54:40,125 --> 01:54:41,416
or a marriage certificate,

3618
01:54:42,083 --> 01:54:43,291
and then an NFT can be

3619
01:54:43,291 --> 01:54:45,625
used across different states.

3620
01:54:46,416 --> 01:54:47,666
Right now, everything is kind of on

3621
01:54:47,666 --> 01:54:50,375
paper, similar idea.

3622
01:54:50,791 --> 01:54:51,750
And I'm like, it's kind of like,

3623
01:54:51,750 --> 01:54:54,708
you kind of have to find the right place

3624
01:54:54,708 --> 01:54:57,750
to get the certificate.

3625
01:54:58,750 --> 01:54:59,916
But I'm like, that type

3626
01:54:59,916 --> 01:55:01,375
of startup has to have

3627
01:55:01,500 --> 01:55:02,541
buy-in from the government.

3628
01:55:03,333 --> 01:55:05,333
If it doesn't, it just dies, right?

3629
01:55:07,541 --> 01:55:09,166
And I think this is one of those ones

3630
01:55:09,166 --> 01:55:10,958
where the government maybe has to help.

3631
01:55:11,458 --> 01:55:12,541
I don't know, I don't know.

3632
01:55:13,583 --> 01:55:14,000
I don't have an

3633
01:55:14,000 --> 01:55:15,083
answer, but it worries me.

3634
01:55:16,750 --> 01:55:17,708
A lot of people are going

3635
01:55:17,708 --> 01:55:19,041
without health insurance.

3636
01:55:19,250 --> 01:55:20,625
Now more people can't afford it.

3637
01:55:21,250 --> 01:55:21,708
Companies can only

3638
01:55:21,708 --> 01:55:23,625
tolerate so much expense.

3639
01:55:24,125 --> 01:55:26,000
So it's becoming a strange situation,

3640
01:55:27,166 --> 01:55:28,000
like longer and longer.

3641
01:55:29,666 --> 01:55:32,000
If you take a look at Uber or Brex,

3642
01:55:32,250 --> 01:55:33,083
at their beginnings,

3643
01:55:33,291 --> 01:55:34,416
they were breaking the rules

3644
01:55:34,458 --> 01:55:36,375
and asking for forgiveness later.

3645
01:55:37,333 --> 01:55:38,416
Are there really problems

3646
01:55:38,416 --> 01:55:40,958
that startups can't solve,

3647
01:55:41,708 --> 01:55:42,333
like where they can't

3648
01:55:42,333 --> 01:55:43,833
start off breaking the rules,

3649
01:55:44,166 --> 01:55:44,791
finding something

3650
01:55:44,791 --> 01:55:46,208
that's just so much better,

3651
01:55:47,000 --> 01:55:49,750
like evolutionarily, or revolutionarily,

3652
01:55:49,750 --> 01:55:50,833
not evolutionarily better,

3653
01:55:51,375 --> 01:55:52,333
where they could solve that,

3654
01:55:52,333 --> 01:55:52,666
like the birth

3655
01:55:52,666 --> 01:55:53,958
certificate problem, for example?

3656
01:55:55,208 --> 01:55:56,125
Or are there really

3657
01:55:56,125 --> 01:55:57,250
problems that are resolved,

3658
01:55:57,333 --> 01:55:58,375
reserved for

3659
01:55:58,375 --> 01:56:00,500
governments, like state actors?

3660
01:56:04,708 --> 01:56:05,458
Never say never.

3661
01:56:06,000 --> 01:56:07,833
I think maybe I'm just

3662
01:56:07,833 --> 01:56:09,041
not the right founder

3663
01:56:09,166 --> 01:56:11,208
for tackling those two

3664
01:56:11,208 --> 01:56:12,666
problems that I just brought up.

3665
01:56:14,166 --> 01:56:17,375
I'm giving you the tough ones that,

3666
01:56:18,041 --> 01:56:19,291
when I think about those, I'm like,

3667
01:56:19,291 --> 01:56:20,166
I don't know the answer,

3668
01:56:20,833 --> 01:56:22,458
and I don't even know how to even begin.

3669
01:56:24,458 --> 01:56:26,291
Those are challenging.

3670
01:56:26,583 --> 01:56:28,666
So I would say there

3671
01:56:28,666 --> 01:56:30,458
probably is a way to do it

3672
01:56:31,041 --> 01:56:32,375
where you can get traction.

3673
01:56:32,375 --> 01:56:34,000
And it's like what Elon

3674
01:56:34,000 --> 01:56:35,208
Musk did with rockets.

3675
01:56:36,708 --> 01:56:36,958
Yeah.

3676
01:56:37,666 --> 01:56:38,750
We thought that would be good for

3677
01:56:38,750 --> 01:56:40,458
governments forever.

3678
01:56:41,833 --> 01:56:42,416
Wait, what's that?

3679
01:56:42,791 --> 01:56:44,916
We thought that outer space

3680
01:56:44,916 --> 01:56:47,500
was a government undertaking for decades.

3681
01:56:47,833 --> 01:56:48,958
Yeah, exactly.

3682
01:56:49,208 --> 01:56:52,000
It was just, he somehow got buy-in,

3683
01:56:52,208 --> 01:56:53,958
somehow was able to have

3684
01:56:53,958 --> 01:56:55,541
regulation, embrace it,

3685
01:56:55,541 --> 01:56:56,208
and now he's just

3686
01:56:56,208 --> 01:56:58,541
shooting rockets up all the time.

3687
01:56:58,791 --> 01:57:01,041
That was really tough.

3688
01:57:01,916 --> 01:57:03,833
He figured it out for that industry.

3689
01:57:04,208 --> 01:57:05,166
I'm sure people can

3690
01:57:05,166 --> 01:57:06,291
figure out other industries,

3691
01:57:06,291 --> 01:57:08,375
how to make things different, et cetera.

3692
01:57:12,041 --> 01:57:13,125
Yeah, so there's

3693
01:57:13,125 --> 01:57:14,416
definitely probably a way

3694
01:57:14,416 --> 01:57:15,375
to work on that.

3695
01:57:16,291 --> 01:57:17,541
Nothing a startup can't solve

3696
01:57:17,541 --> 01:57:19,000
with enough determination, right?

3697
01:57:19,750 --> 01:57:20,458
Right people, they'll

3698
01:57:20,458 --> 01:57:21,375
figure something out.

3699
01:57:21,791 --> 01:57:22,708
They'll figure something out.

3700
01:57:22,916 --> 01:57:23,916
It's all about the people.

3701
01:57:25,750 --> 01:57:27,500
On that note, I think that might be

3702
01:57:27,500 --> 01:57:28,666
a good place to stop, Daniel.

3703
01:57:28,916 --> 01:57:30,083
It's been an absolute

3704
01:57:30,083 --> 01:57:30,958
pleasure having you.

3705
01:57:31,625 --> 01:57:32,875
Is there any parting

3706
01:57:32,875 --> 01:57:33,708
words you might share

3707
01:57:33,708 --> 01:57:36,250
to young founders out there that want to

3708
01:57:36,250 --> 01:57:39,125
achieve great things,

3709
01:57:39,916 --> 01:57:40,416
achieve tremendous

3710
01:57:40,416 --> 01:57:41,541
success the way you have,

3711
01:57:41,541 --> 01:57:42,791
and anything you might share with them

3712
01:57:42,791 --> 01:57:43,666
before you wrap it up?

3713
01:57:45,333 --> 01:57:45,666
I think

3714
01:57:49,041 --> 01:57:49,791
learn as much as

3715
01:57:49,791 --> 01:57:51,250
possible, first and foremost.

3716
01:57:52,166 --> 01:57:54,083
There's so many resources out there now

3717
01:57:54,083 --> 01:57:55,666
that I did not have when I started.

3718
01:57:56,375 --> 01:57:57,500
All of it is online.

3719
01:57:58,000 --> 01:57:59,333
Just continually read,

3720
01:57:59,333 --> 01:58:00,708
devour as much as possible.

3721
01:58:02,125 --> 01:58:03,916
I would actually talk to as many founders

3722
01:58:03,916 --> 01:58:04,875
in Silicon Valley,

3723
01:58:04,875 --> 01:58:06,375
they're very open to talking.

3724
01:58:07,875 --> 01:58:09,458
Just reach out to them

3725
01:58:09,458 --> 01:58:10,500
and say, "I'm a founder,

3726
01:58:10,500 --> 01:58:11,500
"I'd love to pick your brain."

3727
01:58:11,875 --> 01:58:12,541
Talk to them about

3728
01:58:12,541 --> 01:58:13,416
starting their company.

3729
01:58:14,125 --> 01:58:15,708
You'd be surprised at who you can get.

3730
01:58:18,375 --> 01:58:19,000
I think

3731
01:58:20,208 --> 01:58:22,500
be bold and just don't be

3732
01:58:22,500 --> 01:58:23,916
scared to talk to people also.

3733
01:58:23,916 --> 01:58:26,083
I think that that's a really good trait.

3734
01:58:28,000 --> 01:58:28,625
There you have it.

3735
01:58:29,541 --> 01:58:30,083
Thank you, Daniel.

3736
01:58:31,000 --> 01:58:31,250
Awesome.

3737
01:58:31,541 --> 01:58:32,291
Pleasure having you on.

3738
01:58:33,125 --> 01:58:33,333
Likewise.

3739
01:58:34,000 --> 01:58:35,000
Thank you so much, Daniel.