WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:30.482 --> 00:00:31.262 Duke: Woo hoo. 00:00:31.262 --> 00:00:32.912 One week, two recordings 00:00:33.114 --> 00:00:35.814 CJ: Duke man, we are on a roll man. 00:00:35.814 --> 00:00:36.894 We are back 00:00:38.154 --> 00:00:39.564 Duke: helps when you get a day off, though. 00:00:39.564 --> 00:00:40.134 It really does. 00:00:40.794 --> 00:00:41.184 CJ: man. 00:00:41.184 --> 00:00:41.844 Seriously. 00:00:42.864 --> 00:00:45.114 Duke: So we've ever recorded at 11 in the morning 00:00:46.144 --> 00:00:46.359 CJ: N sh. 00:00:47.349 --> 00:00:48.879 Maybe during the pandemic, 00:00:49.284 --> 00:00:49.944 Duke: maybe. 00:00:49.944 --> 00:00:50.364 Yeah. 00:00:50.619 --> 00:00:51.009 Alright. 00:00:51.009 --> 00:00:51.694 What are we talking about today? 00:00:52.689 --> 00:00:53.139 CJ: All right, duke. 00:00:53.139 --> 00:00:55.659 Today we're talking about the anatomy of an app. 00:00:56.589 --> 00:01:01.029 Duke: Yeah, so it's all stuff we've talked about before on CJ and the Duke, but 00:01:01.089 --> 00:01:06.309 every once in a while it's good just to like jot down your high level knowledge 00:01:06.339 --> 00:01:11.569 of things at least inspired it for me on my side is, I work at ServiceNow. 00:01:12.349 --> 00:01:16.279 I help build release ops, which is our awesome new tool that helps you 00:01:16.279 --> 00:01:21.109 push more stuff, more often of higher quality with greater confidence. 00:01:21.409 --> 00:01:23.119 And in my, 00:01:25.759 --> 00:01:28.009 I'm not saying I built it, I said I helped build it. 00:01:28.009 --> 00:01:32.559 They gave me the really tiny, pieces and, somebody else created the big bad stuff. 00:01:32.859 --> 00:01:33.459 CJ: Uh. 00:01:36.564 --> 00:01:39.464 Duke: But it kind of made me think again, if we forget for a moment how we get 00:01:39.464 --> 00:01:42.884 this thing from Dev to test, to prod. 00:01:43.061 --> 00:01:48.772 how do you build a comprehensive, successful, long lived, 00:01:50.476 --> 00:01:52.166 awesome thing on ServiceNow? 00:01:52.941 --> 00:01:55.221 CJ: Man, you put a lot of adjectives in that. 00:01:57.231 --> 00:02:01.257 Duke: Well, everybody's, built good apps, and I would argue that people have built 00:02:01.257 --> 00:02:04.167 good apps that lasted not very long. 00:02:04.827 --> 00:02:05.247 You know what I mean? 00:02:05.247 --> 00:02:06.567 It just didn't hit the mark. 00:02:07.137 --> 00:02:07.497 Right? 00:02:07.827 --> 00:02:09.602 Everybody's built something awful. 00:02:11.562 --> 00:02:13.902 CJ: Oh, every single day. 00:02:14.277 --> 00:02:14.697 Duke: Yeah. 00:02:15.267 --> 00:02:17.657 Or at least,, maybe that's a little bit broad, but 00:02:17.657 --> 00:02:19.187 everybody seems something awful. 00:02:20.657 --> 00:02:22.157 CJ: No, you were right the first time. 00:02:22.157 --> 00:02:25.364 Everybody's built something awful, no matter how good you are, I think, 00:02:25.394 --> 00:02:30.044 you know, the whole, progression of getting good necessitates that 00:02:30.044 --> 00:02:33.704 you have built something awful, at least at one point to learn from it. 00:02:34.112 --> 00:02:36.182 Duke: Or accidentally stumbled on something awful. 00:02:36.662 --> 00:02:37.487 CJ: Yeah, that too. 00:02:38.072 --> 00:02:41.279 Duke: I remember I was building this app for a, compliance team 00:02:41.279 --> 00:02:43.019 at a strategic resource company. 00:02:43.019 --> 00:02:47.159 And this is like, they're being audited by NSA and like all the three letter 00:02:47.159 --> 00:02:49.349 agencies are, have their fingers in this. 00:02:49.349 --> 00:02:50.729 'cause it's like, where's the oil? 00:02:50.729 --> 00:02:51.749 How, how much of it do we have left? 00:02:54.029 --> 00:02:58.619 And so they had these tight restrictions again around What 00:02:58.619 --> 00:02:59.669 people are allowed to have. 00:02:59.669 --> 00:03:00.209 What stuff? 00:03:00.209 --> 00:03:03.149 Like, are you allowed to make calls from your desk phone outside the country? 00:03:03.149 --> 00:03:04.289 This, this kind of stuff. 00:03:04.439 --> 00:03:05.189 CJ: Yeah, yeah, 00:03:05.219 --> 00:03:08.969 Duke: And they had this kind of, I certify that I have this right and 00:03:08.969 --> 00:03:10.379 it's under these terms and conditions. 00:03:10.379 --> 00:03:12.209 This was like certification process 00:03:12.539 --> 00:03:12.899 CJ: yeah. 00:03:13.199 --> 00:03:14.849 Data cert, baby data cert. 00:03:15.179 --> 00:03:17.219 Duke: it felt super tasky. 00:03:17.579 --> 00:03:21.089 And so it would be like, okay, let's do this, close it, and 00:03:21.089 --> 00:03:22.559 then in a year reopen it. 00:03:23.081 --> 00:03:27.037 see if it's still, anyway, that was back in, legacy workflow 00:03:27.317 --> 00:03:27.607 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:27.997 --> 00:03:29.437 Duke: and there was some job they had there. 00:03:29.437 --> 00:03:31.897 That'd be like every six months if the flow is still there. 00:03:31.897 --> 00:03:34.961 And it's not like it hasn't been touched in a while, just toss it. 00:03:35.876 --> 00:03:39.986 And so basically like a year a, a year after I built this thing, it was like 00:03:39.986 --> 00:03:41.756 none of the flows existed anymore. 00:03:41.756 --> 00:03:44.006 So it wouldn't do what it had to do a year later. 00:03:44.746 --> 00:03:45.851 CJ: Uh oh. 00:03:46.376 --> 00:03:46.886 Duke: Yeah. 00:03:46.986 --> 00:03:48.396 but it just exposes, right. 00:03:48.396 --> 00:03:51.216 There was probably two or three smarter ways to build this. 00:03:51.727 --> 00:03:52.151 CJ: Yeah. 00:03:52.151 --> 00:03:54.241 And sometimes you don't know . What you don't know. 00:03:54.431 --> 00:03:56.081 I feel the same way when I'm writing code. 00:03:56.271 --> 00:03:58.701 I write some code, I come back a month later, I was like, who? 00:03:58.701 --> 00:03:58.941 What? 00:03:59.316 --> 00:04:02.826 Dummy built, wrote this, right, and then I'll look in the comments. 00:04:02.886 --> 00:04:04.356 Oh, that was me. 00:04:04.596 --> 00:04:04.866 Duke: Yeah. 00:04:08.106 --> 00:04:09.576 Who was the last updated by? 00:04:09.666 --> 00:04:10.146 Oh, 00:04:13.696 --> 00:04:16.336 Anyway, it's not, this is maybe not to make you a better. 00:04:17.566 --> 00:04:20.296 Like developer, you can be a good or bad developer 00:04:20.521 --> 00:04:21.376 CJ: this us. 00:04:22.021 --> 00:04:22.711 Disagree. 00:04:22.867 --> 00:04:25.627 I think this episode will make folks a better developer, right? 00:04:25.627 --> 00:04:27.997 Because it's not always just about writing a code, right? 00:04:27.997 --> 00:04:29.887 Building an app is more holistic to that. 00:04:29.887 --> 00:04:33.594 That's the whole point of this, But then a large part of that falls 00:04:33.594 --> 00:04:35.184 on the shoulders of the developer, 00:04:36.044 --> 00:04:36.964 Duke: I stand corrected. 00:04:37.374 --> 00:04:37.554 CJ: yeah, 00:04:38.384 --> 00:04:39.244 Duke: You're absolutely right. 00:04:41.334 --> 00:04:41.509 CJ: you know. 00:04:41.969 --> 00:04:45.259 these are things that often don't get thought about , when the 00:04:45.259 --> 00:04:46.819 app build is requested, right? 00:04:46.819 --> 00:04:49.786 Or when the, work is ascribed to someone, right? 00:04:49.786 --> 00:04:50.086 It's like, 00:04:50.236 --> 00:04:50.746 Duke: Yeah. 00:04:51.016 --> 00:04:55.246 And something that maybe separates a senior resource from a junior, one 00:04:55.246 --> 00:04:59.086 is the like, I think a junior might presuppose that somebody's already 00:04:59.086 --> 00:05:01.216 done all this great thought onto. 00:05:01.349 --> 00:05:04.679 what does success mean in its totality for this app? 00:05:04.679 --> 00:05:06.029 And we just need you, Mr. 00:05:06.029 --> 00:05:07.949 Junior, to plug in the build bits. 00:05:08.112 --> 00:05:10.782 And that is not always the case. 00:05:10.782 --> 00:05:12.612 That is in fact, rarely the case. 00:05:12.792 --> 00:05:17.172 And so especially for you, kinda like early ServiceNow career people write the 00:05:17.172 --> 00:05:22.452 stuff down because like this is all the check boxes that gotta get looked at. 00:05:22.662 --> 00:05:25.842 In order for this app to be comprehensively successful. 00:05:26.181 --> 00:05:26.931 CJ: absolutely. 00:05:26.991 --> 00:05:31.341 And on top of that, being able to recount this stuff in an interview, bonus points. 00:05:31.911 --> 00:05:34.937 Duke: Seriously, like imagine being able to talk about what it takes 00:05:34.937 --> 00:05:37.907 to deploy a successful thing with very few of them under your belt. 00:05:38.507 --> 00:05:43.757 So, without further ado, we are gonna discuss the anatomy of an A app. 00:05:43.847 --> 00:05:46.127 And we're using app in big air quotes here, right? 00:05:46.127 --> 00:05:47.447 Like that can mean a lot of things. 00:05:48.167 --> 00:05:50.657 . And again, we're just like, we're just a couple guys. 00:05:50.687 --> 00:05:55.074 Like we did our best to research this and, we hope it's pretty comprehensive. 00:05:55.074 --> 00:05:56.321 So, these are all 00:05:56.981 --> 00:05:58.991 CJ: people will tell us about it in the comments. 00:05:59.051 --> 00:06:00.041 Duke: that's right with, 00:06:03.551 --> 00:06:05.651 uh, trust the haters to tell you what you missed. 00:06:05.981 --> 00:06:06.671 CJ: Absolutely. 00:06:06.851 --> 00:06:08.621 Duke: That's why we, that's why we love our haters. 00:06:09.024 --> 00:06:12.407 so we're just gonna list off a bunch of things that should. 00:06:13.301 --> 00:06:16.681 Be considered or checked off before, during, and after you build. 00:06:17.131 --> 00:06:20.001 And we got 'em roughly broken down into , process factors, 00:06:20.091 --> 00:06:21.981 build factors and legacy factors. 00:06:22.769 --> 00:06:25.199 CJ: So first thing, let's talk about Catalyst. 00:06:25.199 --> 00:06:27.059 And we've done an episode on Catalyst before. 00:06:27.219 --> 00:06:28.959 , We'll have that in the show notes below. 00:06:29.149 --> 00:06:31.569 , But yeah, duke, this one I know is one of your babies. 00:06:31.569 --> 00:06:33.369 So why don't you go ahead and dive into it. 00:06:34.074 --> 00:06:35.484 Duke: I might have named it, but I think 00:06:37.944 --> 00:06:40.374 everybody knows how things start in ServiceNow. 00:06:40.854 --> 00:06:42.954 So basically just keep a list of. 00:06:43.389 --> 00:06:49.119 The different ways things start in ServiceNow and as you are studying 00:06:49.209 --> 00:06:53.589 the customer's process, see which one of those make the most sense. 00:06:53.589 --> 00:06:56.709 So, you know, everybody knows stuff can start with email. 00:06:57.159 --> 00:07:00.939 Everybody knows stuff can start with with phone, with SMS messages, 00:07:00.939 --> 00:07:05.109 with integrations, with other catalog items, with walkups. 00:07:06.249 --> 00:07:06.699 CJ: Yeah. 00:07:07.164 --> 00:07:12.054 Duke: With agents, you know, just like put some thought into how do we 00:07:12.054 --> 00:07:15.114 know that this thing should start? 00:07:15.786 --> 00:07:16.416 CJ: Yes. 00:07:16.521 --> 00:07:17.541 Duke: of people take this for granted. 00:07:17.541 --> 00:07:18.411 Like it should be obvious. 00:07:18.411 --> 00:07:19.731 No, it's not obvious, 00:07:20.496 --> 00:07:20.976 CJ: Yeah. 00:07:21.026 --> 00:07:25.436 ? Because not all apps are going to be, , immediately interactive, If you 00:07:25.436 --> 00:07:30.036 are getting an email and then an email is causing something to happen, maybe 00:07:30.036 --> 00:07:33.186 this app is self-contained, maybe you never do anything once it's built. 00:07:33.654 --> 00:07:35.574 That doesn't mean that it's still not an app, right? 00:07:35.864 --> 00:07:38.742 Catalyst can take on , all shapes and forms and I think it's important to 00:07:38.742 --> 00:07:42.946 know what is actually causing the work to be done so that you ensure that 00:07:42.946 --> 00:07:45.766 the work is being done, like being kicked off, like the app's being kicked 00:07:45.766 --> 00:07:47.176 off when the work needs to be done. 00:07:47.379 --> 00:07:49.449 seems like it's circular, but, um. 00:07:49.674 --> 00:07:50.964 Duke: Yeah, exactly. 00:07:51.084 --> 00:07:52.554 Well, it's just knowing when it should start. 00:07:52.554 --> 00:07:56.114 And the, the other reason why you want to do careful consideration of Catalyst is 00:07:56.114 --> 00:08:02.367 that what exists today might not have the benefit of what's available in service 00:08:02.652 --> 00:08:03.282 CJ: Oh man. 00:08:03.717 --> 00:08:07.564 Duke: Like, have you ever had a process that ends and then the consumer has to 00:08:07.564 --> 00:08:09.724 go do something to start another process? 00:08:09.829 --> 00:08:10.549 CJ: Yep. 00:08:10.616 --> 00:08:14.246 Duke: like the, my very first Service Now job was, , building an, a new employee 00:08:14.246 --> 00:08:18.936 onboarding process and literally none of the backend teams took any accountability 00:08:18.936 --> 00:08:21.186 for the entirety of the result. 00:08:21.606 --> 00:08:24.606 And so it was literally the requester who would be like, go to system A 00:08:24.786 --> 00:08:26.826 put in a request for systems access. 00:08:27.006 --> 00:08:31.626 Then once you get it, go to system B and put in requests for hardware. 00:08:31.836 --> 00:08:33.756 Then once that's all there. 00:08:33.756 --> 00:08:35.676 go and make requests for software. 00:08:36.321 --> 00:08:36.741 CJ: Right. 00:08:36.756 --> 00:08:37.356 Duke: see what I mean? 00:08:37.356 --> 00:08:40.986 And so it's kind of like you could have one catalyst, which is just fill out 00:08:41.106 --> 00:08:44.316 fricking everything and just make it go. 00:08:44.451 --> 00:08:47.361 Or those swivel seat ones where like you're gonna receive an email 00:08:47.361 --> 00:08:50.511 from this external vendor and then you're gonna turn around, take that 00:08:50.511 --> 00:08:51.831 email and plug it into ServiceNow. 00:08:52.611 --> 00:08:54.951 And the catalyst there can switch from. 00:08:55.341 --> 00:08:59.991 Mail to integration, and so that's why like it's not just see what it is now, 00:09:00.141 --> 00:09:01.851 but see, see if it can be approved. 00:09:01.851 --> 00:09:02.961 We're going way over time. 00:09:02.966 --> 00:09:04.096 We're going over time. 00:09:10.326 --> 00:09:12.336 CJ: Yeah, I mean, yes. 00:09:12.606 --> 00:09:13.266 Let's just move on. 00:09:13.626 --> 00:09:15.456 You took me back to the nineties there for a minute. 00:09:15.456 --> 00:09:16.686 You're like, yeah, swivel chair. 00:09:16.716 --> 00:09:16.956 I'm like, 00:09:17.266 --> 00:09:20.151 Duke: We're gonna do the whole Catalyst episode over again right here, right now. 00:09:20.256 --> 00:09:20.916 CJ: Right. 00:09:22.391 --> 00:09:22.701 Duke: Okay. 00:09:22.881 --> 00:09:23.871 Remember description. 00:09:23.871 --> 00:09:25.791 In the description, we'll have a link to this whole episode. 00:09:25.791 --> 00:09:27.651 We talked for a full on half hour about this. 00:09:28.311 --> 00:09:28.521 Okay. 00:09:28.521 --> 00:09:29.151 What's the next one? 00:09:29.256 --> 00:09:32.346 CJ: flows, flows, duke, and look, I know you're the flow master 00:09:32.346 --> 00:09:34.326 and I, am coming around, right? 00:09:34.326 --> 00:09:37.746 Like for me, like legacy workflow editor was, that was my jam. 00:09:37.746 --> 00:09:38.646 I love that thing. 00:09:38.866 --> 00:09:39.736 , I am. 00:09:39.841 --> 00:09:44.911 Coming around to the perspective that I can't just be an old guy 00:09:45.151 --> 00:09:46.681 who only likes the old things. 00:09:46.681 --> 00:09:51.041 And so Flow Designer is, steadily becoming one of my more 00:09:51.041 --> 00:09:52.787 favorite, parts of the, platform. 00:09:52.997 --> 00:09:57.444 But, in context to this, it's all about what do you do next, right? 00:09:57.444 --> 00:09:59.574 I mean, that's what flows are, you know, 00:09:59.649 --> 00:10:03.489 Duke: Yeah, like, I mean in a whole lot more abstract sense, right? 00:10:03.489 --> 00:10:04.419 You have to know. 00:10:04.472 --> 00:10:05.672 their process flow. 00:10:05.672 --> 00:10:10.082 If somebody says, I need you to build me an app for X, and the X is, is based 00:10:10.082 --> 00:10:15.152 on a process, then wouldn't it be nice to see like a Visio of the process? 00:10:16.277 --> 00:10:16.497 CJ: Yes. 00:10:16.712 --> 00:10:20.522 Duke: we can't make that up as ServiceNow delivery experts. 00:10:21.197 --> 00:10:24.227 Some of us can help guide the customer who maybe doesn't have experience doing 00:10:24.227 --> 00:10:28.727 such things, but ultimately the owners of the process who are not us, have 00:10:28.727 --> 00:10:31.127 to tell us how that process works. 00:10:31.157 --> 00:10:35.507 It is up to us to apply the tools in ServiceNow accordingly. 00:10:35.507 --> 00:10:36.877 And it's not just flow designer. 00:10:36.877 --> 00:10:41.734 It could be playbooks, it could be, chained business rules or whatever. 00:10:42.227 --> 00:10:44.757 I hope it wouldn't be, but think of it in a broad sense. 00:10:44.787 --> 00:10:45.237 CJ: It used to 00:10:45.297 --> 00:10:47.397 Duke: gotta know how this works. 00:10:48.237 --> 00:10:49.317 CJ: Yeah, no, absolutely. 00:10:49.317 --> 00:10:49.527 Duke. 00:10:49.527 --> 00:10:51.747 I think one of the ways that I like to think about, flows, or 00:10:51.747 --> 00:10:54.527 at least in terms of, , capturing that while you're , talking to. 00:10:54.867 --> 00:10:56.807 The client is and then what, right? 00:10:56.807 --> 00:10:59.467 And this is one of the things that Warren Buffet always asks when he's considering 00:10:59.467 --> 00:11:05.287 an investment, if Apple, launches a new iPhone on in September, and then what? 00:11:05.687 --> 00:11:08.807 And you ask that until you get to the end, to the logical end of the process. 00:11:09.317 --> 00:11:09.497 Right. 00:11:09.497 --> 00:11:10.637 And then now you got the flow. 00:11:10.667 --> 00:11:10.877 Right. 00:11:10.877 --> 00:11:13.337 Now you know exactly what's gonna happen and now you know how to build it. 00:11:13.727 --> 00:11:16.217 And I only throw that in there, there, because I think sometimes 00:11:16.217 --> 00:11:20.585 folks get into this, situation where they don't know how to ask the client 00:11:20.645 --> 00:11:24.605 what their process looks like or how to assist the client and building 00:11:24.605 --> 00:11:25.985 out what their process looks like. 00:11:26.135 --> 00:11:29.855 I think for me, the simple thing is just to ask and then what or what next. 00:11:29.855 --> 00:11:30.275 Right. 00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:35.190 Duke: Last point on flow is that if your goal in the ServiceNow ecosystem 00:11:35.190 --> 00:11:40.684 is to become a ServiceNow ba, you had better know how to run Visio or, 00:11:40.764 --> 00:11:42.024 what are some of the other ones now? 00:11:42.054 --> 00:11:44.844 I think Figma does flows, but 00:11:45.219 --> 00:11:45.509 CJ: Miro. 00:11:46.091 --> 00:11:48.874 Duke: Miro yeah, you had better understand how. 00:11:49.076 --> 00:11:52.706 A flow diagram works so that you can build it because , not a lot 00:11:52.706 --> 00:11:56.177 of customers do know this, and it might be that you have to walk them 00:11:56.177 --> 00:12:00.137 through and actually build out what this looks like irrespective of tool. 00:12:00.827 --> 00:12:01.127 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:01.157 --> 00:12:04.817 95% of the clients that I've had don't have their process is documented. 00:12:05.237 --> 00:12:05.627 Right. 00:12:05.657 --> 00:12:09.797 And, I always try to start there because you can't build what you don't understand. 00:12:10.212 --> 00:12:12.162 Duke: Just think about all the steps in a new hire, right? 00:12:12.372 --> 00:12:15.402 How could you possibly know you were done unless you had a flow that says 00:12:15.792 --> 00:12:17.502 this, then this, then this, then done. 00:12:18.192 --> 00:12:21.362 All right, next thing we got is, integrations. 00:12:21.362 --> 00:12:21.512 And 00:12:21.562 --> 00:12:25.639 sometimes it's obvious, where this system is literally feeding us. 00:12:25.939 --> 00:12:28.009 But you might be in the middle of discussion of an app and they 00:12:28.009 --> 00:12:29.989 just say, oh, and then you fill out this field with this data. 00:12:29.989 --> 00:12:30.619 Hold on a second. 00:12:30.619 --> 00:12:31.639 Where do we get that data, 00:12:32.494 --> 00:12:32.554 CJ: Yeah. 00:12:32.959 --> 00:12:33.319 Duke: right? 00:12:33.319 --> 00:12:34.039 Do we have it? 00:12:34.089 --> 00:12:37.239 , We're gonna talk a little bit about this later during the build part, but 00:12:37.239 --> 00:12:43.089 integration is the cognizance of where does the data that we need come from? 00:12:43.629 --> 00:12:47.049 And also do we need integration for either a catalyst. 00:12:47.224 --> 00:12:52.954 Or part of the middle tier of the process, or as something we send as an exit. 00:12:53.157 --> 00:12:54.792 So understand your integration points. 00:12:55.167 --> 00:12:58.670 CJ: this, brings me back to one of, ServiceNow's previous brand 00:12:58.670 --> 00:13:00.857 messages, platform of platforms, 00:13:01.002 --> 00:13:01.422 Duke: Mm-hmm. 00:13:01.557 --> 00:13:02.557 CJ: This is , one of the things that. 00:13:03.172 --> 00:13:06.832 ServiceNow has always excelled at just being that hub of being able to 00:13:06.832 --> 00:13:10.882 integrate with practically everything out there And so knowing that, 00:13:10.882 --> 00:13:14.692 those integrations could potentially exist or likely will exist based on 00:13:14.692 --> 00:13:18.332 the way that, , the platform gets, , embedded in someone's organization. 00:13:18.692 --> 00:13:21.392 Looking out for those integrations is always one of the things you 00:13:21.392 --> 00:13:22.532 wanna have on your checklist. 00:13:22.995 --> 00:13:27.685 Duke: The next thing we have to understand for processes is, , expectations of work. 00:13:27.685 --> 00:13:27.895 Okay. 00:13:27.895 --> 00:13:31.555 So the idea is like, we gotta have the, we gotta have this work done. 00:13:31.585 --> 00:13:32.185 Why? 00:13:32.605 --> 00:13:35.632 So that this other team can get their stuff done in time. 00:13:35.662 --> 00:13:37.372 'cause this all has to get done in five days. 00:13:37.402 --> 00:13:37.582 Okay. 00:13:37.582 --> 00:13:41.642 Well, Anytime your stakeholders are talking about intensity of time or 00:13:41.642 --> 00:13:45.332 expectation of delivery, then we have a mechanism , in ServiceNow it's 00:13:45.332 --> 00:13:48.722 called SLAs, NOLAs and underpinning contracts and all that kind of stuff. 00:13:48.722 --> 00:13:52.502 But you want to be cognizant of those upfront before you start to build. 00:13:52.502 --> 00:13:56.132 So just put this on your checklist of things to ask when you're 00:13:56.132 --> 00:13:59.162 sitting down at that table kind of negotiating , the build of an app. 00:13:59.597 --> 00:13:59.807 CJ: Yeah. 00:13:59.807 --> 00:14:01.847 And I think you soft sold this one a little bit, duke, right? 00:14:02.117 --> 00:14:06.737 Uh, work, because work expectations are probably one of the things gonna 00:14:06.737 --> 00:14:10.037 make or break your app, your client's gonna ask you to build something, you're 00:14:10.037 --> 00:14:13.587 gonna build it, but you're building it because they want an outcome out of it. 00:14:13.587 --> 00:14:13.737 Right? 00:14:13.737 --> 00:14:14.937 And how do you manage the outcome? 00:14:14.937 --> 00:14:17.817 Well, you gotta manage the work expectations in order to understand 00:14:17.817 --> 00:14:20.757 the outcome so that you can ensure that , you're hitting the, points 00:14:20.757 --> 00:14:21.612 that the client wants you to hit. 00:14:22.542 --> 00:14:24.559 So, this one's phenomenally important. 00:14:24.589 --> 00:14:28.039 SLAs are, are a great way to, keep track of it, but just know this 00:14:28.039 --> 00:14:29.509 isn't something that you can skip, 00:14:30.454 --> 00:14:30.874 Duke: No. 00:14:30.919 --> 00:14:34.465 CJ: This is, this is absolutely, a necessity to the process. 00:14:34.570 --> 00:14:37.990 Duke: And again, people come to you who don't know ServiceNow won't know to ask 00:14:37.990 --> 00:14:43.035 for SLAs, and so just Take that need to know outta the equation for them, just by 00:14:43.035 --> 00:14:46.485 asking them about expectations, how they work, so that you can build it in SLA. 00:14:46.485 --> 00:14:48.705 So they'd be like, oh my God, that's super awesome. 00:14:49.050 --> 00:14:51.150 CJ: Yeah, but they will know to ask you in six months, 00:14:51.187 --> 00:14:52.537 whether or not the app's working 00:14:53.092 --> 00:14:53.452 Duke: Yep, 00:14:54.067 --> 00:14:54.427 CJ: right? 00:14:54.427 --> 00:14:55.777 And so how are you gonna tell them? 00:14:55.777 --> 00:14:56.107 Right? 00:14:56.167 --> 00:14:56.497 So. 00:14:56.647 --> 00:14:57.037 Duke: All right. 00:14:57.187 --> 00:15:02.084 Second last thing in process that you have to understand is, closure. 00:15:02.434 --> 00:15:05.344 we might get this in terms of like flows and knowing how the thing flows, 00:15:05.344 --> 00:15:09.395 but most people have a bias for the happy path, this is how it works and 00:15:09.395 --> 00:15:13.295 it works every single time, but does it really, like what if we get to the 00:15:13.295 --> 00:15:17.402 middle of it and something happens that prevents it from proceeding? 00:15:17.609 --> 00:15:19.979 you just have to think about all the different ways you can close. 00:15:19.979 --> 00:15:23.069 So we look at things like graceful closure, something 00:15:23.069 --> 00:15:24.599 else, like a disgraceful closure. 00:15:24.599 --> 00:15:26.929 Like what if we couldn't close the incident? 00:15:26.959 --> 00:15:28.579 Like we just don't have a resolution. 00:15:28.579 --> 00:15:30.529 You're just gonna have to live with the way this thing is now. 00:15:31.189 --> 00:15:32.299 Like, we hate that, but. 00:15:32.314 --> 00:15:34.534 It's, it's a disgraceful closure. 00:15:34.534 --> 00:15:36.364 And then we have cancellations. 00:15:36.664 --> 00:15:38.284 Some work is timeout. 00:15:38.284 --> 00:15:41.650 Like I think about, anything that's like a daily task that resets every day. 00:15:41.680 --> 00:15:44.800 Like, if you didn't do it today, you missed today's task, tomorrow 00:15:44.800 --> 00:15:47.080 you have another task that you can do for that same thing. 00:15:47.582 --> 00:15:47.942 CJ: Yeah. 00:15:48.032 --> 00:15:50.192 Oh man, that's, yeah, absolutely. 00:15:50.750 --> 00:15:53.810 Duke: so just think about the ways things close and you have 00:15:53.810 --> 00:15:56.092 to, factor for both the graceful. 00:15:56.687 --> 00:15:59.297 And the disgraceful, the unexpected, the, 00:15:59.822 --> 00:16:00.042 CJ: Yes. 00:16:00.167 --> 00:16:00.617 Duke: kind of things. 00:16:00.677 --> 00:16:00.887 Yep. 00:16:01.187 --> 00:16:02.477 CJ: Yeah, because that's incredibly important. 00:16:02.927 --> 00:16:05.117 Duke: And don't be afraid, they might not have it articulated 00:16:05.117 --> 00:16:06.587 on the process flow diagram. 00:16:06.587 --> 00:16:10.220 So be the best consultant you can be and say, okay, you 00:16:10.220 --> 00:16:11.600 say that there's a task here? 00:16:11.600 --> 00:16:14.840 But what happens if the task doesn't close as we expect? 00:16:14.900 --> 00:16:15.800 What happens? 00:16:16.505 --> 00:16:16.925 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:16.985 --> 00:16:19.445 Duke: Sometimes that's an easy thing to answer, and sometimes it's 00:16:19.445 --> 00:16:22.745 like you open up a can of worms and let's think about it some more. 00:16:23.525 --> 00:16:23.795 CJ: Yeah. 00:16:23.795 --> 00:16:26.015 And sometimes you only have the successful path. 00:16:26.015 --> 00:16:27.155 This is what we wanna see. 00:16:27.155 --> 00:16:30.425 And , and it's like pulling teeth to figure out what happens when things don't, 00:16:30.575 --> 00:16:32.465 don't go down that, that happy path. 00:16:32.645 --> 00:16:36.845 Well then you hold for the everything else scenario, this is success 00:16:36.965 --> 00:16:41.795 and then everything else is not success no matter what it is. 00:16:41.795 --> 00:16:42.095 Right? 00:16:42.095 --> 00:16:47.739 And then, you can always pick that apart over time to tease out, 00:16:47.739 --> 00:16:49.299 okay, well this was a timeout. 00:16:49.644 --> 00:16:54.174 This was a cancellation, this was a disgraceful end to the task, right? 00:16:54.324 --> 00:16:57.114 Like sometimes you might not have that and your client's not necessarily being 00:16:57.114 --> 00:16:59.004 very, forthcoming about those things. 00:16:59.004 --> 00:17:02.634 Then I would say the way I, typically do is then I fall back on the 00:17:02.634 --> 00:17:04.194 success and then everything else 00:17:04.589 --> 00:17:04.949 Duke: All right. 00:17:04.954 --> 00:17:08.817 The last, area in process that you gotta, put a little effort into. 00:17:09.415 --> 00:17:13.435 This is one area that I can, do hours and hours and hours and hours of episodes. 00:17:13.585 --> 00:17:16.555 All on its own is outcomes and reporting. 00:17:16.555 --> 00:17:18.775 I believe we have several episodes on this. 00:17:19.735 --> 00:17:21.535 We'll link them all in a description. 00:17:21.535 --> 00:17:26.509 That's how important it is, but that we put this in the process area for a reason 00:17:26.809 --> 00:17:28.849 because it's happening before the build. 00:17:29.584 --> 00:17:33.214 We should know the outcomes of this process. 00:17:33.244 --> 00:17:36.334 We might know exactly how the process works, but we need to know 00:17:36.334 --> 00:17:40.660 the outcomes of the process before we start building because we need 00:17:40.660 --> 00:17:42.130 to start building for the outcomes. 00:17:42.130 --> 00:17:45.460 If you know the outcomes, again, all kinds of benefits, not only can you 00:17:45.460 --> 00:17:49.720 like build reports in so that day one we can find out if the process 00:17:49.720 --> 00:17:51.135 is working the way we want or not. 00:17:52.645 --> 00:17:53.125 CJ: Yep. 00:17:53.440 --> 00:17:58.504 Duke: But also it's like a litmus test for the inevitable, nice to 00:17:58.504 --> 00:18:02.524 haves, being disguised as need to haves midway through the project. 00:18:02.940 --> 00:18:04.320 We really, really need this. 00:18:04.350 --> 00:18:04.890 Okay. 00:18:05.160 --> 00:18:09.150 If we gave you that tomorrow, how does it underpin one of these outcomes? 00:18:09.390 --> 00:18:12.720 Or which of these outcomes are you willing to give up in order to get that feature? 00:18:13.560 --> 00:18:17.490 CJ: Oh man, that's, yeah, dude, that's, oh, we, I don't even 00:18:17.490 --> 00:18:20.490 think we have prioritization of, deliverables in here, man. 00:18:20.490 --> 00:18:23.887 But we could definitely go, on the tangent about that, but I a hundred percent agree. 00:18:24.267 --> 00:18:25.377 outcomes and reporting. 00:18:25.377 --> 00:18:27.717 If you don't know what you're trying to accomplish, how do you 00:18:27.717 --> 00:18:28.572 know when you accomplish that? 00:18:28.674 --> 00:18:32.747 And how do you measure that, and what is the mechanism by which your client would 00:18:32.747 --> 00:18:36.967 measure it, And how are you presenting that to them, these are all things, look, 00:18:37.177 --> 00:18:41.224 , I know we, largely talk to a technical audience, but I've said this before. 00:18:41.734 --> 00:18:43.564 You're not getting paid the right code, you're getting 00:18:43.564 --> 00:18:45.484 paid to solve problems, right? 00:18:45.514 --> 00:18:45.964 Duke: Bingo. 00:18:46.714 --> 00:18:50.907 CJ: So like the outcomes, that's your pay dirt, that is your evidence that 00:18:50.977 --> 00:18:54.307 the checks that were written to, pay for your work, were worth it to the client, 00:18:54.647 --> 00:18:56.657 ? So don't shortchange on this one. 00:18:56.657 --> 00:18:59.417 This one is probably one of the most important things on these lists. 00:19:00.482 --> 00:19:04.085 Duke: Yeah, I mean, how many times have you sat with a stakeholder who's kind 00:19:04.085 --> 00:19:06.785 of been told, okay, you gotta move your stuff to ServiceNow, and it's like. 00:19:06.854 --> 00:19:07.304 you come in? 00:19:07.304 --> 00:19:07.484 Okay. 00:19:07.484 --> 00:19:08.654 Why do you want this app on ServiceNow? 00:19:08.924 --> 00:19:09.944 Because it needs to be on ServiceNow. 00:19:10.414 --> 00:19:11.764 Why do you wanna do incident management? 00:19:11.764 --> 00:19:13.174 'cause everybody does incident management. 00:19:13.174 --> 00:19:14.044 Why do you need CMDB? 00:19:14.074 --> 00:19:16.914 'cause everybody needs to CMDB, but you don't know , what 00:19:16.914 --> 00:19:18.294 you're looking to measure. 00:19:18.294 --> 00:19:18.954 You know what I mean? 00:19:18.954 --> 00:19:21.294 Like, what questions are you gonna answer? 00:19:21.294 --> 00:19:23.514 What value are you gonna squeeze out of it? 00:19:24.324 --> 00:19:27.684 So at the very least, on incident management, we should be able to look 00:19:27.684 --> 00:19:30.324 at some graph that shows us, you know. 00:19:31.224 --> 00:19:35.214 Our volume, like our volume metrics as well as our performance against them. 00:19:35.979 --> 00:19:36.354 CJ: Yeah. 00:19:36.644 --> 00:19:38.384 Duke: how long is it taking us to close these? 00:19:38.384 --> 00:19:41.504 Hey, look, our volume has increased, but it's taking us no longer to close 'em. 00:19:41.504 --> 00:19:42.229 We're doing pretty good. 00:19:42.529 --> 00:19:44.179 CJ: you're, you're just gonna throw money away if you don't 00:19:44.179 --> 00:19:45.469 have these things done, right? 00:19:45.469 --> 00:19:48.169 If you don't know what the outcomes are and the reporting is, you're just 00:19:48.169 --> 00:19:51.802 throwing money down a hole, Because you're, you're inevitably going to 00:19:51.802 --> 00:19:55.229 build the wrong thing and have to go back and make some changes, right? 00:19:55.229 --> 00:19:57.119 And, and now that's just cost extra. 00:19:57.584 --> 00:19:57.794 Duke: Yeah. 00:19:58.094 --> 00:19:59.594 And it's how you get invited back, right? 00:19:59.594 --> 00:20:02.594 If you can deliver something where day one, they can start saying, 00:20:02.594 --> 00:20:04.844 see, wasn't this a great decision? 00:20:05.194 --> 00:20:05.414 CJ: Yes. 00:20:06.224 --> 00:20:09.614 Duke: You know, let's get that person to come back and solve another thing for us. 00:20:09.704 --> 00:20:10.784 Alright, on to build 00:20:11.364 --> 00:20:14.364 CJ: So good practices validated by, in instance, scan. 00:20:14.514 --> 00:20:17.154 I love that we here are saying good practices. 00:20:17.154 --> 00:20:19.254 Note that, ? That we're not saying best practices. 00:20:19.450 --> 00:20:20.020 because 00:20:20.104 --> 00:20:23.986 best practices can fluctuate, depending on what you're doing or depending on 00:20:23.986 --> 00:20:26.746 who you are, depending on where you are in the lifecycle of a product. 00:20:26.912 --> 00:20:29.822 like best practices today are different than they were 00:20:29.827 --> 00:20:31.577 when I started 10 years ago. 00:20:31.917 --> 00:20:32.217 You know, 00:20:32.372 --> 00:20:36.436 Duke: Not to mention that it is not like some, vast governing body that says this 00:20:36.436 --> 00:20:38.716 is best practice, thus say it the Lord, 00:20:38.911 --> 00:20:39.131 CJ: Yes. 00:20:39.136 --> 00:20:44.476 Duke: know, but, and so it's kind of this weird collection that we all 00:20:44.476 --> 00:20:46.786 maintain in our own minds collectively. 00:20:46.939 --> 00:20:50.949 and so it's easy to confuse common practice with good practice, but I The 00:20:50.949 --> 00:20:55.892 key here is we have an excellent tool in ServiceNow to capture, you know, 00:20:55.892 --> 00:20:59.752 more legit granular, like you shouldn't do this, and it's called instant 00:20:59.752 --> 00:21:01.822 scan and you should be running it. 00:21:02.009 --> 00:21:05.589 if you are a ServiceNow , resource, if you're a ServiceNow product 00:21:05.619 --> 00:21:08.439 owner at a customer, you should be getting people to run it. 00:21:08.799 --> 00:21:11.619 You should be automating it, so that your scan can look 00:21:11.619 --> 00:21:12.907 for, stuff that shouldn't be. 00:21:13.542 --> 00:21:14.262 CJ: Absolutely. 00:21:14.817 --> 00:21:16.317 Duke: Stuff that exposes you to risk. 00:21:16.782 --> 00:21:17.082 CJ: Yeah. 00:21:17.502 --> 00:21:18.507 So then you can change that. 00:21:19.164 --> 00:21:22.524 Duke: so the next one in build is failure detection and remediation. 00:21:22.674 --> 00:21:27.594 I worked for 15 years in the ServiceNow ecosystem to become a air quotes 00:21:27.594 --> 00:21:33.054 real developer at ServiceNow, and I started learning about failure 00:21:33.054 --> 00:21:35.109 detection and remediation that day. 00:21:35.859 --> 00:21:36.699 Wow. 00:21:36.939 --> 00:21:38.919 I, you, you know, those things where you think, you know, 00:21:40.239 --> 00:21:40.329 CJ: Yep. 00:21:40.569 --> 00:21:42.229 Duke: and then someone tells you, no, no, no. 00:21:42.229 --> 00:21:44.739 The start line is way over there. 00:21:46.344 --> 00:21:47.244 CJ: Absolutely, dude. 00:21:47.304 --> 00:21:47.484 Right? 00:21:47.484 --> 00:21:50.934 I got a bunch of like proco developer friends, right? 00:21:50.934 --> 00:21:51.684 And they're all right. 00:21:51.684 --> 00:21:54.732 They're, deep in it and I'm like, man, I just play a developer on tv. 00:21:54.942 --> 00:21:59.802 Duke: It's, yeah, it is so easy to assume it's gonna work. 00:21:59.989 --> 00:22:01.249 I have a catalog. 00:22:01.249 --> 00:22:02.449 It's gonna call a flow. 00:22:02.539 --> 00:22:06.559 It's gonna take this as an input, and then that's gonna get fed to this flow action. 00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:08.979 It's gonna output this, which is gonna feed another piece of 00:22:08.979 --> 00:22:10.389 the activity, and it just works. 00:22:10.389 --> 00:22:11.739 'cause that's what happens, right? 00:22:11.739 --> 00:22:12.879 Just takes that value of the field. 00:22:12.999 --> 00:22:15.729 And so I'm talking to my developer peers in ServiceNow. 00:22:15.729 --> 00:22:17.139 They're like, yeah, but what if it doesn't? 00:22:17.349 --> 00:22:18.459 I'm like, how could it not? 00:22:18.879 --> 00:22:19.389 I don't know. 00:22:19.389 --> 00:22:20.139 Well, what if it doesn't? 00:22:21.669 --> 00:22:24.399 I'm like, because the interface makes that field mandatory and it's 00:22:24.399 --> 00:22:25.719 gonna force you to put something in. 00:22:25.719 --> 00:22:27.279 Or like what if they don't do it through the interface? 00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:28.329 What if it's done by a script? 00:22:28.329 --> 00:22:30.519 I'm like, I don't know why somebody would do it by a script. 00:22:30.519 --> 00:22:31.659 Yeah, but what if they do? 00:22:34.839 --> 00:22:42.309 And it's hilarious after the fact, but you really do have to build in 00:22:42.309 --> 00:22:47.049 a skepticism or a paranoia almost 00:22:47.154 --> 00:22:47.994 CJ: Yes. 00:22:48.126 --> 00:22:52.506 Duke: I'm expecting this input, but what if I don't get the input I'm expecting? 00:22:52.899 --> 00:22:56.889 I'm expecting this output, but what if I don't get the output that I'm expecting? 00:22:57.249 --> 00:23:02.502 And at the very least, at the very least, what this will do is help you isolate. 00:23:02.559 --> 00:23:05.606 Where things have gone wrong, everybody's the 500 line script 00:23:05.606 --> 00:23:10.076 include that mostly works, you know, except for when it doesn't and 00:23:10.076 --> 00:23:11.696 it's like, where did it go wrong? 00:23:11.696 --> 00:23:14.746 And then you're having to invent testing scenarios to try and 00:23:14.746 --> 00:23:16.936 figure out what went wrong. 00:23:17.116 --> 00:23:21.789 But if you start with a paranoia of things can go wrong, and so let's 00:23:21.789 --> 00:23:25.209 handle almost every case where I'm dealing with inputs and outputs. 00:23:25.474 --> 00:23:30.097 Just assume it can fail and what do I do in the failure case, it's gonna be so much 00:23:30.097 --> 00:23:32.987 easier when things break and things break. 00:23:33.528 --> 00:23:37.628 CJ: Duke, I think it's important too, the way that we arrange these things, right? 00:23:37.628 --> 00:23:38.063 Is that we put. 00:23:38.993 --> 00:23:43.013 Closure, disgraceful and graceful closure, timeouts, cancellations, 00:23:43.193 --> 00:23:44.273 outcomes, and reporting. 00:23:44.273 --> 00:23:45.263 We put that in the stage. 00:23:45.263 --> 00:23:49.133 That is before building failure, detention and remediation, right? 00:23:49.133 --> 00:23:49.493 Because the 00:23:49.573 --> 00:23:49.793 Duke: Hmm. 00:23:50.543 --> 00:23:54.239 CJ: of those processes, Determine how you build the app. 00:23:54.466 --> 00:23:57.959 so all this stuff is related and, you'll start to see that sprinkled in 00:23:57.959 --> 00:23:59.732 as we go through, a few more of these. 00:24:00.964 --> 00:24:03.904 , Duke: Now that we talked about failure detection, remediation, we also 00:24:03.904 --> 00:24:06.034 gotta talk about data governance. 00:24:06.034 --> 00:24:10.090 So I think most people that got into ServiceNow understand the 00:24:10.090 --> 00:24:12.127 concept of a data structure, but. 00:24:12.515 --> 00:24:16.055 The next level is understanding the governance of the data. 00:24:16.055 --> 00:24:20.165 So whenever we think we need a new table, like sometimes we don't, sometimes that 00:24:20.165 --> 00:24:21.905 did, like we need to store locations. 00:24:21.905 --> 00:24:23.435 Well great, we already store those. 00:24:23.649 --> 00:24:24.489 or computers. 00:24:24.489 --> 00:24:24.759 Great. 00:24:24.759 --> 00:24:25.719 We already store those. 00:24:25.932 --> 00:24:28.332 so when you're talking about data governance, you gotta ask yourself 00:24:28.332 --> 00:24:33.042 questions like, do we need new data or does it exist in ServiceNow? 00:24:33.072 --> 00:24:35.445 Or do we maybe need a new property of the data? 00:24:35.919 --> 00:24:36.459 CJ: Yeah. 00:24:36.705 --> 00:24:40.159 Duke: also, if it's a thing that we're talking about, real or 00:24:40.159 --> 00:24:42.379 abstract, can it go in the CMDB? 00:24:42.902 --> 00:24:43.442 CJ: Oh man. 00:24:43.502 --> 00:24:43.992 Exactly. 00:24:44.087 --> 00:24:44.387 Duke: Yeah, yeah. 00:24:45.112 --> 00:24:48.352 Or, or, or is it addressed by the CSDM somehow? 00:24:48.442 --> 00:24:51.262 Do we have to build some new service table, or does CSDM have 00:24:51.262 --> 00:24:52.972 something ready made for it? 00:24:53.242 --> 00:24:55.702 And on top of that, where do we get the data? 00:24:55.762 --> 00:24:57.982 We're not just hand keying into a ServiceNow, are we? 00:24:58.717 --> 00:24:59.317 Are we, 00:25:00.097 --> 00:25:01.357 CJ: flat files, baby. 00:25:03.787 --> 00:25:04.627 Duke: where do we get it? 00:25:04.627 --> 00:25:09.404 And then who owns it, all these things together, data governance, and let's 00:25:09.404 --> 00:25:13.364 just pour one out for data certification app, which made it all so much easier. 00:25:13.379 --> 00:25:14.069 CJ: Yeah. 00:25:14.129 --> 00:25:14.339 Yeah. 00:25:14.339 --> 00:25:14.819 We miss you. 00:25:14.819 --> 00:25:15.509 Data cert. 00:25:15.889 --> 00:25:17.839 I won't speak for everyone who's listening. 00:25:18.079 --> 00:25:21.952 I personally have encountered, several instances where I'm, logged into an 00:25:21.952 --> 00:25:27.082 instance and I've seen a table recreated that already exists out of the box. 00:25:27.082 --> 00:25:30.022 And you know, it's a large part because of a lack of data governance. 00:25:30.635 --> 00:25:34.335 I've worked with a client and,, they're using contracts, But they're 00:25:34.335 --> 00:25:39.735 using contracts as a custom app that does exactly the same thing as the 00:25:39.825 --> 00:25:41.985 out of the box contract module does. 00:25:42.185 --> 00:25:44.795 and that's because the folks who built that app didn't 00:25:44.795 --> 00:25:46.355 understand ServiceNow at the time. 00:25:46.595 --> 00:25:49.519 It was the, they didn't understand, like there was no, data governance 00:25:49.519 --> 00:25:51.849 portion of the, the requirements done. 00:25:51.849 --> 00:25:54.249 And so no one knew that there was a contracts. 00:25:54.387 --> 00:25:56.337 module that was already there, so they rebuilt it. 00:25:56.787 --> 00:25:57.237 Awesome. 00:25:58.422 --> 00:26:01.762 Duke: There's also kind of the case of , oh, this body of users is 00:26:01.762 --> 00:26:02.839 the team that, does the approval. 00:26:03.619 --> 00:26:09.295 So I've seen people try and build another user table that stores user information 00:26:09.549 --> 00:26:11.289 you gotta think about the ways , to do it. 00:26:11.709 --> 00:26:15.542 So if I'm looking at an approval group, build a group, you know, 00:26:15.937 --> 00:26:16.217 CJ: Right. 00:26:17.162 --> 00:26:19.952 Duke: having a group doesn't necessarily mean it's an assignment group. 00:26:20.779 --> 00:26:22.189 the main key there is just. 00:26:22.999 --> 00:26:24.589 Does the data exist? 00:26:24.739 --> 00:26:28.804 If so, do everything you can to use that data versus create a new table. 00:26:29.329 --> 00:26:29.929 CJ: Absolutely. 00:26:29.959 --> 00:26:35.152 , And then this is just all architectural in nature, it is all about understanding 00:26:35.152 --> 00:26:37.469 the data that you have in your instance, the, way that instance is 00:26:37.469 --> 00:26:41.279 set up, and then also how that aligns with the business as a whole, right? 00:26:41.279 --> 00:26:44.299 So that you understand how you can utilize that to build an 00:26:44.299 --> 00:26:45.739 effective and streamlined app. 00:26:46.229 --> 00:26:49.319 Duke: once this starts happening, then you're really rapidly gonna 00:26:49.319 --> 00:26:54.659 go into groups, roles, acls, and other security concerns. 00:26:54.899 --> 00:26:55.519 CJ: Ooh Lord. 00:26:56.489 --> 00:27:00.149 Duke: yeah, like, I'll, I'll give you an example from release ops, right? 00:27:00.149 --> 00:27:02.839 We have this concept of, a pipeline. 00:27:02.952 --> 00:27:08.402 And a pipeline is a set of records that determines at this company we go from dev 00:27:08.402 --> 00:27:12.122 to test, to quality assurance, to prod. 00:27:12.410 --> 00:27:16.670 And so since everybody's got different instances and different 00:27:16.670 --> 00:27:21.020 amounts of instances and different ways things travel from Dev to prod, 00:27:21.020 --> 00:27:23.840 it's something that everybody has to define for themselves, right? 00:27:24.710 --> 00:27:25.730 but who defines it? 00:27:25.730 --> 00:27:30.327 Like there's probably a user of release ops that has that knowledge that isn't 00:27:30.327 --> 00:27:34.557 necessarily the ServiceNow admin could be like, it could be overlap, might not 00:27:34.557 --> 00:27:38.697 also be, but for that matter, everybody else who's using release ops, like the 00:27:38.697 --> 00:27:40.287 developers are saying, my stuff's done. 00:27:40.287 --> 00:27:41.337 Like please release it. 00:27:41.847 --> 00:27:44.787 they have no business going and managing the pipeline. 00:27:45.407 --> 00:27:45.697 CJ: Yeah. 00:27:45.927 --> 00:27:46.217 Yeah, 00:27:46.467 --> 00:27:48.537 Duke: You know, no business whatsoever. 00:27:48.537 --> 00:27:52.650 And so in the data governance, you'll start seeing that, these types of 00:27:52.650 --> 00:27:54.540 people can do these types of things. 00:27:55.050 --> 00:27:59.374 And we call it crud access, create, read, update, delete, and those form 00:27:59.374 --> 00:28:04.354 the basis of your groups, your roles, and any acls that you might need. 00:28:04.354 --> 00:28:08.314 But more often than not, I'd say you have to coax this outta the customer with your 00:28:08.314 --> 00:28:11.625 questions because they can't even see the tables in their mind half the time. 00:28:12.215 --> 00:28:14.891 CJ: This is so true, duke, and, this ties back to that 00:28:15.011 --> 00:28:16.421 the first part of this process. 00:28:16.421 --> 00:28:19.426 Well, when we're going through the process and you're building out the flow. 00:28:20.291 --> 00:28:23.761 Of your app, ? And it's gonna be decision points in that flow, 00:28:24.001 --> 00:28:26.671 typically in those decision points of where are you gonna be asking 00:28:26.671 --> 00:28:28.951 yourself, alright, now who sees this? 00:28:29.071 --> 00:28:30.211 Or who can do this? 00:28:30.211 --> 00:28:33.675 Or who needs to be notified about that's where you surface. 00:28:33.675 --> 00:28:36.285 The groups or the rows and acls, right? 00:28:36.285 --> 00:28:39.468 That will be needed to, uh, be associated with this app 00:28:39.795 --> 00:28:40.065 Duke: Yep. 00:28:40.095 --> 00:28:42.885 And Groups covers the operational aspect of it too. 00:28:42.885 --> 00:28:45.345 Like if it's a task app we're dealing with. 00:28:45.930 --> 00:28:47.760 Who are the support teams, right? 00:28:47.760 --> 00:28:50.790 Who are the teams that can get this stuff right? 00:28:50.790 --> 00:28:52.980 And so that would be your roles anyway, your groups. 00:28:53.070 --> 00:28:55.590 And then , you defacto lump that with roles because 00:28:55.950 --> 00:28:57.180 that's how roles get defined. 00:28:57.180 --> 00:28:59.610 Don't let me catch you assigning roles to humans. 00:29:00.060 --> 00:29:00.720 CJ: Oh my God. 00:29:00.935 --> 00:29:01.285 Duke: Don't. 00:29:03.450 --> 00:29:04.770 CJ: Oh, please don't do that. 00:29:04.980 --> 00:29:05.640 Oh my God. 00:29:07.080 --> 00:29:10.516 I will tell you though, the ServiceNow does make it a little 00:29:10.516 --> 00:29:15.616 easy to like uns sortt that, to when you, if that is screwed up, right? 00:29:15.616 --> 00:29:20.066 Because it shows whether or not a role was inherited, to a user or not, right? 00:29:20.066 --> 00:29:23.553 So you can see some things that have been directly assigned, but man, just don't, 00:29:24.003 --> 00:29:25.398 Duke: It's just effort and Right. 00:29:25.473 --> 00:29:26.583 It's just effort and risk. 00:29:26.853 --> 00:29:29.583 You know, you have to know that Bob got fired so that you can manually 00:29:29.583 --> 00:29:33.843 take the roles away, like, and, you know, and, and then the risk. 00:29:34.023 --> 00:29:36.086 It's just the risk maybe you missed it. 00:29:36.236 --> 00:29:38.156 Maybe the user didn't get ACT deactivated. 00:29:38.156 --> 00:29:39.386 Maybe they still got access. 00:29:39.775 --> 00:29:42.908 CJ: And then there's encryption, And you know when you need encryption, 00:29:43.943 --> 00:29:46.133 Duke: No, well do you, you might not know. 00:29:47.018 --> 00:29:47.468 CJ: right? 00:29:48.218 --> 00:29:48.348 That's fair. 00:29:48.908 --> 00:29:51.886 Duke: luckily every time I've been, in a situation where we 00:29:51.886 --> 00:29:54.246 needed it, like the customer knew, 00:29:54.990 --> 00:29:56.190 CJ: Yes, that's true. 00:29:56.280 --> 00:29:56.850 That's good. 00:29:57.116 --> 00:30:00.326 but sometimes the customer doesn't know because sometimes it's dependent 00:30:00.326 --> 00:30:04.730 upon, regulations, ? That, your particular stakeholder might not 00:30:04.730 --> 00:30:06.746 have any line of sight to, and 00:30:06.776 --> 00:30:06.896 Duke: I, 00:30:08.396 --> 00:30:08.936 CJ: Right. 00:30:10.361 --> 00:30:14.535 Duke: I remember having talks with the hedge fund , they had just like data by 00:30:14.535 --> 00:30:19.245 compliance process where it's like, oh, some dude in Saudi Arabia says he can 00:30:19.245 --> 00:30:22.635 get me all the information on how much reserves they have in all the oil wells. 00:30:22.728 --> 00:30:26.141 And there's some legal traceability that they need can I buy and 00:30:26.141 --> 00:30:27.371 trade off this information? 00:30:27.691 --> 00:30:28.061 CJ: Right. 00:30:28.766 --> 00:30:32.113 Duke: And so how do we put this on ServiceNow but guarantee that 00:30:32.113 --> 00:30:34.183 nobody even ServiceNow can see it, 00:30:35.233 --> 00:30:35.593 CJ: Well, 00:30:35.863 --> 00:30:37.363 Duke: and know what I mean? 00:30:37.723 --> 00:30:39.553 And I was like, I don't know. 00:30:40.513 --> 00:30:42.823 mean like, does it matter that much? 00:30:42.823 --> 00:30:45.103 And they're like, oh yeah, our enemies would buy ServiceNow 00:30:45.103 --> 00:30:46.123 just to get to that data. 00:30:46.123 --> 00:30:47.383 I'm like, oh, okay. 00:30:47.713 --> 00:30:48.073 CJ: Oh. 00:30:48.073 --> 00:30:48.258 Oh, okay. 00:30:48.283 --> 00:30:50.323 Duke: was a, it was, it was a while ago, but. 00:30:50.713 --> 00:30:52.903 CJ: No, man, I, I mean, I totally get it right. 00:30:52.903 --> 00:30:55.498 I've worked with a, hedge fund too, I think a different one than 00:30:55.498 --> 00:30:56.818 the one you're talking about here. 00:30:57.088 --> 00:31:01.821 And, we had a similar thing where we were, doing group management and there's concept 00:31:01.821 --> 00:31:03.261 in trading called, uh, Chinese wall. 00:31:03.261 --> 00:31:04.071 I think that's what it's called. 00:31:04.341 --> 00:31:09.021 And, people on one side of the wall can't see things on the other side of the wall. 00:31:09.321 --> 00:31:11.391 and it like, not just can't see things. 00:31:11.928 --> 00:31:14.635 legally, under the penalty, right? 00:31:14.665 --> 00:31:15.415 Must not. 00:31:15.415 --> 00:31:15.955 Thank you. 00:31:16.855 --> 00:31:22.511 Legally must not see things on the other side of the wall, And, talk 00:31:22.511 --> 00:31:26.981 about pressure when you're trying to build a system that ensures that, by 00:31:26.981 --> 00:31:30.491 default you're not breaking the law, and that's where one of the other places 00:31:30.491 --> 00:31:31.991 where encryption can come in handy. 00:31:33.385 --> 00:31:35.725 , Duke: Last thing on build is a TF test. 00:31:35.915 --> 00:31:36.335 Yes. 00:31:36.365 --> 00:31:37.565 It's a ton of extra work. 00:31:38.025 --> 00:31:39.915 And it's getting easier every year. 00:31:40.515 --> 00:31:45.178 However, it's not just about you, there's the amount of time it takes us 00:31:45.178 --> 00:31:50.385 to build a fully, robust application, And we argue that robust application 00:31:50.505 --> 00:31:56.625 would include a TF tests, so that as this app changes, we just push a 00:31:56.625 --> 00:31:58.150 button and and see if it still works. 00:31:58.645 --> 00:31:59.095 CJ: Yeah. 00:31:59.095 --> 00:32:04.341 Duke: and that might mean I work more or there's more expectation for me, And 00:32:04.341 --> 00:32:08.661 yeah, it's always like, uh, doing more with less and can we just cut this out? 00:32:09.261 --> 00:32:12.891 But the payoff when everybody does it, is that you just have push button tests 00:32:13.956 --> 00:32:15.816 CJ: No, dude, that's, that's not the payoff. 00:32:16.881 --> 00:32:17.301 Duke: It isn't. 00:32:17.496 --> 00:32:18.246 CJ: No. 00:32:18.336 --> 00:32:22.326 The payoff is when it breaks and you've gotta fix it. 00:32:22.716 --> 00:32:25.381 You've got a much easier way to locate what's broken. 00:32:28.896 --> 00:32:30.186 Duke: Yeah, I hadn't. 00:32:31.476 --> 00:32:33.141 I do need to think about it evidently. 00:32:36.555 --> 00:32:37.755 CJ: push button testing, great. 00:32:37.755 --> 00:32:37.935 Right? 00:32:37.935 --> 00:32:38.625 Absolutely. 00:32:38.805 --> 00:32:41.291 But the, the whole point of testing is yeah. 00:32:41.291 --> 00:32:43.721 I mean, you hope that when you press the button, everything's gonna come up green. 00:32:43.871 --> 00:32:44.685 But what if it doesn't? 00:32:45.015 --> 00:32:48.225 If you don't have those tests, all you're gonna have is a broken system. 00:32:49.005 --> 00:32:52.125 If you have those tests, you got something that's gonna turn red at, and you know 00:32:52.125 --> 00:32:53.505 where you need to go, start looking. 00:32:53.505 --> 00:32:54.315 That's gonna save you. 00:32:54.315 --> 00:32:56.145 That gonna save you hours of time. 00:32:56.505 --> 00:32:57.585 It can save you days 00:32:57.615 --> 00:32:58.575 Duke: think about it that way. 00:32:59.880 --> 00:33:00.230 CJ: right? 00:33:00.345 --> 00:33:01.125 Duke: didn't think about it that way. 00:33:01.125 --> 00:33:04.875 I just assumed like, oh, I got my everyday normal operations and oh, 00:33:04.875 --> 00:33:08.325 I just brought in this third party vendor and they're changing stuff 00:33:08.325 --> 00:33:12.015 and like I, every time they change I just wanna push the button and test. 00:33:12.165 --> 00:33:14.985 I don't wanna have to call my users and say, okay, everybody jump back on 00:33:14.985 --> 00:33:16.665 the system and see if it still works. 00:33:18.015 --> 00:33:20.895 I just want, I just want to like press a button and do the test. 00:33:21.208 --> 00:33:23.158 especially, I'm just gonna say it. 00:33:23.575 --> 00:33:26.755 With release ops, which can automate the A TF part. 00:33:26.755 --> 00:33:29.545 Hey, just take this update set and move it to test and then run the tests. 00:33:29.545 --> 00:33:30.145 CJ: Yes, 00:33:31.045 --> 00:33:34.345 Duke: And no, don't need nobody to remember, remember? 00:33:34.375 --> 00:33:35.725 Did you remember to do? 00:33:39.835 --> 00:33:40.225 CJ: Yeah. 00:33:40.225 --> 00:33:43.435 If you got kids, you know exactly how, foolproof that is. 00:33:43.795 --> 00:33:44.845 Duke: Yeah, exactly. 00:33:44.850 --> 00:33:45.505 Exactly. 00:33:45.505 --> 00:33:45.865 So, 00:33:45.955 --> 00:33:47.695 CJ: Did you remember to take out the trash? 00:33:47.905 --> 00:33:48.955 No, I didn't. 00:33:49.045 --> 00:33:51.265 Do you realize you're sitting next to the trash can? 00:33:52.075 --> 00:33:53.755 Duke: Can you smell that? 00:33:53.935 --> 00:33:54.865 Ah, alright. 00:33:55.255 --> 00:33:57.055 One more category to go and then we're done. 00:33:57.381 --> 00:33:59.451 CJ: End user documentation, duke. 00:33:59.631 --> 00:34:03.171 All right, everyone at home take a shot for documentation, 00:34:04.911 --> 00:34:06.291 Duke: Oh, there's multiple types, right? 00:34:06.291 --> 00:34:09.036 And so we're not talking about documenting what you built. 00:34:09.036 --> 00:34:09.081 Right? 00:34:09.731 --> 00:34:14.658 end user documentation specifically, . Is okay, somebody's gotta use this new app, 00:34:14.958 --> 00:34:18.438 or somebody's gotta understand how to use it now that we moved it off of legacy 00:34:18.438 --> 00:34:20.448 forms and onto workspace or something. 00:34:20.988 --> 00:34:21.188 CJ: Absolutely. 00:34:21.798 --> 00:34:24.408 ? Duke: These people aren't ServiceNow admins who are using it. 00:34:24.528 --> 00:34:26.988 So do they understand how it works? 00:34:27.558 --> 00:34:29.718 Do they understand when to press what button? 00:34:30.093 --> 00:34:30.608 CJ: No, they don't. 00:34:31.023 --> 00:34:35.461 If they don't, duke and man, and they never, they never do. 00:34:35.901 --> 00:34:36.921 That's the thing, right? 00:34:36.921 --> 00:34:40.635 And like this is just such a pet peeve for me right now, right? 00:34:40.635 --> 00:34:45.168 Is that,, I am encountering so many folks out there who are, ServiceNow customers. 00:34:45.168 --> 00:34:47.358 And they are, not getting the value outta the system. 00:34:47.538 --> 00:34:48.588 I'm like, okay, show me. 00:34:48.828 --> 00:34:50.478 And I was like, yeah, we got these processes. 00:34:50.478 --> 00:34:50.658 All right. 00:34:50.658 --> 00:34:51.408 So how do you use them? 00:34:51.528 --> 00:34:52.518 We don't know. 00:34:53.043 --> 00:34:55.278 It's like, how, how do you not know? 00:34:55.278 --> 00:34:56.538 Like, where's the documentation? 00:34:56.688 --> 00:34:57.858 We don't have any. 00:34:58.188 --> 00:35:01.181 It's like, okay, so what happens when you land , on the page, right? 00:35:01.181 --> 00:35:02.501 With all the data and the data? 00:35:02.711 --> 00:35:03.671 Like, we don't know. 00:35:03.671 --> 00:35:04.811 We don't know what's next. 00:35:04.811 --> 00:35:06.401 We don't like, no. 00:35:07.061 --> 00:35:10.061 Duke: you take somebody who's been using Microsoft Project since 00:35:10.061 --> 00:35:12.641 forever ago and oh, congratulations. 00:35:12.641 --> 00:35:18.051 You have this new red hot SPM tool and Suddenly they have absolutely 00:35:18.051 --> 00:35:21.501 zero knowledge on how to create a baseline, how to build a project from 00:35:21.501 --> 00:35:23.331 a template, how to add a resource plan. 00:35:23.481 --> 00:35:24.681 Like it is all different. 00:35:24.741 --> 00:35:25.731 It's all different. 00:35:26.151 --> 00:35:27.861 And they're not the ServiceNow admin. 00:35:27.861 --> 00:35:30.351 They ain't seen this even once beforehand. 00:35:30.351 --> 00:35:33.021 So the good news here, this is just a checkbox that you have to 00:35:33.021 --> 00:35:35.991 make sure to make sure you get a robust, capable app, right? 00:35:36.321 --> 00:35:41.578 Most of the time, luckily this won't be your responsibility, but we talk 00:35:41.578 --> 00:35:43.408 about maximizing your agency, right? 00:35:43.873 --> 00:35:48.546 If you can make sure you drive this is completed by somebody, it just 00:35:48.546 --> 00:35:50.166 makes your app a lot more successful. 00:35:50.196 --> 00:35:52.506 'cause your users will know what to do with it. 00:35:53.361 --> 00:35:56.215 CJ: Yeah, and this is how you ensure that your app actually 00:35:56.215 --> 00:35:58.105 gets used instead of just built. 00:35:58.443 --> 00:35:59.793 . Duke: Use instead of just built. 00:35:59.793 --> 00:36:00.273 I love that. 00:36:00.663 --> 00:36:03.973 Okay, next thing on the Legacy uh. 00:36:05.323 --> 00:36:06.043 Guided tours. 00:36:06.043 --> 00:36:10.113 This is an older feature in service now, but it's still valuable even if 00:36:10.113 --> 00:36:12.873 you have the documentation sitting in front of them, , very few people 00:36:12.873 --> 00:36:14.223 are gonna open up the how to PDF. 00:36:14.223 --> 00:36:17.973 So if your app is simple enough, you can add a guided tour to it and this 00:36:17.973 --> 00:36:19.503 buttons for this, this buttons for that. 00:36:19.503 --> 00:36:20.583 Like go ahead and do it. 00:36:20.583 --> 00:36:21.753 it's worth the time. 00:36:22.281 --> 00:36:23.871 CJ: Yeah, I a hundred percent agree with this. 00:36:23.871 --> 00:36:26.541 I've used these in the past and they've been very successful, I think. 00:36:26.745 --> 00:36:30.495 so I a hundred percent agree that guided tours are, functionality. 00:36:30.495 --> 00:36:31.515 They've been around for a while. 00:36:31.515 --> 00:36:33.095 That means they're, a bit more mature, right? 00:36:33.095 --> 00:36:36.005 Which means they, are gonna work more often than not in terms of 00:36:36.005 --> 00:36:37.325 like bugs and things like that. 00:36:37.488 --> 00:36:38.505 and, they're good. 00:36:38.655 --> 00:36:41.505 They are very self-explanatory for, uh, end users. 00:36:41.855 --> 00:36:45.220 Duke: and they don't even have to be a hundred percent thorough to be useful. 00:36:45.595 --> 00:36:47.940 They can just be very thorough and useful, you know? 00:36:48.340 --> 00:36:48.683 CJ: Yeah. 00:36:48.693 --> 00:36:51.183 Here's the best selling point I can, I can give for 'em, right? 00:36:51.183 --> 00:36:55.733 ServiceNow includes so many guided tours out of the box, If you, , load up a PDI 00:36:55.733 --> 00:36:58.953 and load up a module that you've never used, go use the guided tour, Once you 00:36:58.953 --> 00:37:01.593 get through the guided tour, I guarantee you you're gonna know a lot more about 00:37:01.593 --> 00:37:03.243 that module than you did when you started. 00:37:03.533 --> 00:37:05.508 that's the best selling point I could give you right there. 00:37:06.233 --> 00:37:08.833 So if you do it well, your end users will love you for it. 00:37:09.378 --> 00:37:11.268 Duke: And people are like, oh, it just takes a lot more 00:37:11.268 --> 00:37:12.408 effort to add it to the app. 00:37:12.438 --> 00:37:12.828 Yep. 00:37:12.858 --> 00:37:14.508 But you want your app to be used, right? 00:37:15.183 --> 00:37:15.723 CJ: Yes 00:37:18.243 --> 00:37:18.573 man. 00:37:18.573 --> 00:37:21.063 This, we might be able to retitle this episode. 00:37:21.063 --> 00:37:22.473 , Building a usable app or 00:37:22.578 --> 00:37:22.758 Duke: Yeah. 00:37:22.818 --> 00:37:23.478 Building an app. 00:37:23.628 --> 00:37:24.228 People actually, 00:37:24.483 --> 00:37:24.963 CJ: Yes. 00:37:24.963 --> 00:37:26.553 Building an app people actually use. 00:37:27.048 --> 00:37:27.588 Duke: Okay. 00:37:27.768 --> 00:37:28.938 God, my voice is wearing out. 00:37:29.235 --> 00:37:32.341 next point on legacy, platform owner documentation. 00:37:32.401 --> 00:37:33.001 Surprise. 00:37:34.456 --> 00:37:35.296 CJ: Take a shot. 00:37:35.821 --> 00:37:38.731 Duke: How is it that I, that I ended up talking about this? 00:37:38.821 --> 00:37:39.091 Huh? 00:37:39.616 --> 00:37:39.766 CJ: I 00:37:40.081 --> 00:37:40.501 Duke: Um, 00:37:41.311 --> 00:37:42.136 CJ: it like. 00:37:44.611 --> 00:37:47.475 Duke: so listen, building out all the objects that you touched is 00:37:47.475 --> 00:37:50.745 one thing, but you must describe. 00:37:51.450 --> 00:37:53.950 The why of the app, ? Capture that now. 00:37:54.130 --> 00:37:55.570 Capture its major features. 00:37:55.570 --> 00:37:59.030 Write it like an essay, write it, as if it's being consumed by a human. 00:37:59.330 --> 00:38:04.253 There are platform owners out there that don't know all of the special things 00:38:04.253 --> 00:38:08.273 that have been built onto their app because nobody bothered to write it down. 00:38:08.513 --> 00:38:11.903 I'm Chad, I'm the ServiceNow admin for a company X, Y, z. 00:38:12.083 --> 00:38:14.543 I know what's going on, but Chad hits lotto. 00:38:14.543 --> 00:38:19.355 Chad goes off, does whatever, Then you're the new person that comes 00:38:19.355 --> 00:38:22.205 in to own it, and you got a team underneath you, and it's like, what 00:38:22.205 --> 00:38:24.648 do we have on the system right now? 00:38:24.688 --> 00:38:29.068 Unfortunately, there's no push button, receive a gigantic memorialized list 00:38:29.068 --> 00:38:32.758 of the things that were built and why, which is why it's imperative that we 00:38:32.788 --> 00:38:34.738 memorialize the things that we build. 00:38:35.668 --> 00:38:37.228 We've talked about it a hundred thousand times. 00:38:37.228 --> 00:38:37.528 We did, 00:38:40.523 --> 00:38:42.148 did a dedicated episode on it. 00:38:42.368 --> 00:38:42.588 CJ: Yep. 00:38:43.288 --> 00:38:44.848 Duke: We'll put that in the description. 00:38:44.848 --> 00:38:46.108 Oh, we can have a huge description. 00:38:46.108 --> 00:38:46.798 I hope we have enough room. 00:38:48.793 --> 00:38:51.403 CJ: We're gonna do a separate episode on the description below. 00:38:55.828 --> 00:38:57.778 Duke: We should have an index of all the things that we've 00:38:57.778 --> 00:38:59.068 ever added to our description. 00:38:59.323 --> 00:38:59.803 CJ: Man. 00:38:59.803 --> 00:39:01.093 Dude, that would be awesome. 00:39:01.678 --> 00:39:03.028 Duke: Okay, buddy, take the last one. 00:39:03.223 --> 00:39:04.303 CJ: Uh, succession plan. 00:39:04.333 --> 00:39:07.306 All right, so what happens when you're gone, somebody's gotta 00:39:07.306 --> 00:39:08.746 take this thing over, right? 00:39:08.746 --> 00:39:11.776 You've built it, you've deployed it to production is in use now, 00:39:12.136 --> 00:39:14.416 and you now have been promoted. 00:39:14.446 --> 00:39:19.760 You're now VP of software engineering, so you're not doing dev anymore, so 00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:21.225 who's going to take over that app? 00:39:22.205 --> 00:39:25.415 How do they know how to take it over and how to run with it? 00:39:25.635 --> 00:39:27.945 Those are things , that really do need to be talked about 00:39:27.945 --> 00:39:29.921 before you win the lottery. 00:39:30.986 --> 00:39:32.066 Duke: Yeah, exactly. 00:39:32.066 --> 00:39:33.356 Or get hit by bus. 00:39:33.356 --> 00:39:33.626 Right? 00:39:33.626 --> 00:39:35.156 There's always the, the anti-lock. 00:39:35.406 --> 00:39:35.696 CJ: Yeah. 00:39:35.786 --> 00:39:36.206 Duke: Um, 00:39:38.021 --> 00:39:40.211 CJ: Was trying to keep it less morbid, but yes. 00:39:40.616 --> 00:39:40.916 Duke: yeah. 00:39:41.576 --> 00:39:44.966 Hey, listen, if you've been in this space long enough, you've been at one 00:39:44.966 --> 00:39:46.136 of those customers where it's like. 00:39:46.515 --> 00:39:48.435 I don't understand how this app works. 00:39:48.465 --> 00:39:49.005 Yeah. 00:39:49.005 --> 00:39:53.775 Jane built that app and Jane's now on a separate team that does stuff just for hr. 00:39:54.045 --> 00:39:58.125 But now you're begging Jane for her time, taking away Jane's time from her current, 00:39:58.195 --> 00:40:02.635 outcome she's trying to deliver so she can come and explain to you how she built 00:40:02.635 --> 00:40:04.375 this thing, if she can even remember. 00:40:04.375 --> 00:40:05.755 'cause it was eight years ago. 00:40:06.605 --> 00:40:10.060 CJ: Yeah, which again highlights the importance of documentation. 00:40:10.595 --> 00:40:14.465 , Duke: How do we sustain knowledge of what we have over the long run? 00:40:14.465 --> 00:40:18.181 Because newsflash, the stuff we build is invisible. 00:40:18.606 --> 00:40:18.826 CJ: Ooh, 00:40:18.901 --> 00:40:20.461 Duke: It's intangible. 00:40:20.461 --> 00:40:21.631 , It's abstract. 00:40:21.631 --> 00:40:26.671 And unless you mindfully build something to encapsulate it, a document. 00:40:27.011 --> 00:40:30.251 It's the whole reason we invented writing and numbers, 00:40:30.816 --> 00:40:34.216 , CJ: I was watching a, comedian on, , YouTube, Facebook somewhere, . And, 00:40:34.216 --> 00:40:38.053 and he was like explaining, school from the perspective of, the people 00:40:38.053 --> 00:40:41.713 who first invented it and it was really very much like what you just said. 00:40:42.150 --> 00:40:45.390 hey kid, we're going to take you out of what you're doing and 00:40:45.390 --> 00:40:47.585 come put you in this building for eight hours and teach you things. 00:40:48.330 --> 00:40:49.440 Why, why, why? 00:40:49.470 --> 00:40:50.340 Why do we have to change? 00:40:50.340 --> 00:40:53.160 Well, because we're going to die and someone needs to know 00:40:53.160 --> 00:40:56.280 these things after we die. 00:40:57.853 --> 00:40:59.833 but that's pretty much what it is, right? 00:41:00.070 --> 00:41:04.910 succession planning is we're going to move on, Whether that's inside the 00:41:04.910 --> 00:41:08.450 company or out, and somebody needs to know this stuff, before we leave. 00:41:08.990 --> 00:41:13.380 And I will tell you though, I'm still stuck on the stuff we build is invisible. 00:41:13.620 --> 00:41:15.090 Like I really like that. 00:41:15.090 --> 00:41:18.120 I'm, my whole, I got half my brain working on that right now. 00:41:18.120 --> 00:41:19.470 That might be a future episode. 00:41:19.830 --> 00:41:25.943 Duke: I mean, getting into like DIY, car repair with my son has just opened up. 00:41:25.943 --> 00:41:29.273 I've always talked about the invisibility problem, but it's just a whole new world. 00:41:29.273 --> 00:41:31.320 Like we changed our brake pads and our rotors. 00:41:31.975 --> 00:41:35.095 couple weeks ago, you take the wheel off a car and you're like, oh yeah, there it is. 00:41:35.218 --> 00:41:36.958 that's how they built the rotor. 00:41:37.041 --> 00:41:40.461 The brake pads, the mechanisms that compressed them and keep them in 00:41:40.461 --> 00:41:43.311 place and stop them from sitting on the wheel the entire time. 00:41:43.531 --> 00:41:48.091 you can see it, you can see the inside of a car, you can know jack squat about 00:41:48.091 --> 00:41:51.961 cars, take off a wheel and be like, that is probably meant for stopping a car. 00:41:52.381 --> 00:41:55.771 You know, like you can't open service now. 00:41:56.296 --> 00:41:57.016 As easily. 00:41:57.016 --> 00:41:57.346 Yeah. 00:41:57.346 --> 00:41:58.996 I mean, yeah, you got the records, right? 00:41:58.996 --> 00:42:03.136 The script includes the business rules, the flows, but there's so many of these 00:42:03.136 --> 00:42:05.566 things in so many different places. 00:42:05.956 --> 00:42:08.836 what if the owner's manual of your car was the only way you could 00:42:08.836 --> 00:42:10.066 understand how your car worked? 00:42:10.096 --> 00:42:13.786 Except every page of it is in a different cabinet somewhere in your house. 00:42:14.366 --> 00:42:15.056 CJ: Yes. 00:42:15.296 --> 00:42:15.986 I mean, I mean, 00:42:19.346 --> 00:42:21.111 it would be impossible for you to figure it out. 00:42:22.466 --> 00:42:25.286 Duke: It is impossible to figure out if you come in sight 00:42:25.286 --> 00:42:27.146 unseen to a brand new customer. 00:42:27.430 --> 00:42:29.860 Everybody hates doing the legacy planning work. 00:42:30.700 --> 00:42:35.770 It sucks like it's a slog, but they don't hate it as much as when it's all 00:42:35.770 --> 00:42:38.920 screwed up years later and somebody new is trying to take care of it. 00:42:38.920 --> 00:42:43.510 You don't hate documentation and legacy planning nearly as much as you hate 00:42:43.510 --> 00:42:45.070 the consequences of not doing it. 00:42:45.070 --> 00:42:46.150 You just don't know it Now. 00:42:46.795 --> 00:42:47.545 CJ: Yeah, absolutely. 00:42:47.605 --> 00:42:51.171 I'll tag on to this one too, duke, I was just talking to a client, and, 00:42:51.441 --> 00:42:54.111 you know, we were talking about they were gonna do an audit to understand 00:42:54.111 --> 00:42:57.021 who owns all various different services in the, in the company. 00:42:57.511 --> 00:43:00.931 , And I said, okay, so once you do that audit, you also then have to 00:43:00.931 --> 00:43:04.801 set up a process to ensure that you never have to do that audit again. 00:43:06.016 --> 00:43:06.436 Right. 00:43:06.856 --> 00:43:09.896 You know, because doing that manual audit's gonna , take a lot of time. 00:43:09.896 --> 00:43:12.956 It's gonna take a lot of effort, but now that you've collected all those individual 00:43:12.956 --> 00:43:17.503 pages from all those individual file cabinets and put them in a book, you 00:43:17.503 --> 00:43:21.665 need somebody to ensure that the book is kept up to date, and so, that is another 00:43:21.665 --> 00:43:26.735 one of those things that is invisible typically until you have to do it again. 00:43:27.303 --> 00:43:28.413 Duke: gosh, it's been a long episode. 00:43:28.722 --> 00:43:30.652 CJ: Man, dude, we were just like, this is what happens when 00:43:30.652 --> 00:43:32.122 you get a day off and record. 00:43:35.107 --> 00:43:35.377 Duke: all right. 00:43:35.377 --> 00:43:38.104 Let's just do a quick roll up of all the concepts we covered. 00:43:38.104 --> 00:43:38.509 Write 'em down. 00:43:39.169 --> 00:43:42.335 Take notes, especially beginners, so you can start how do I know I've got a 00:43:42.335 --> 00:43:45.095 good, solid, comprehensive application? 00:43:45.395 --> 00:43:45.695 CJ: Yeah. 00:43:45.695 --> 00:43:46.055 And, 00:43:46.055 --> 00:43:46.835 Duke: in your own blanks here. 00:43:46.985 --> 00:43:50.392 CJ: and, and, and I wanna, and let me jump in on that, do this roll 00:43:50.392 --> 00:43:54.112 up , and have this so you can build your applications on the build with 00:43:54.112 --> 00:43:55.852 challenge that kicks off tomorrow 00:43:56.362 --> 00:43:56.842 Duke: Oh, bingo. 00:43:56.872 --> 00:43:58.857 Well, hey, let's put a link to that in description below. 00:43:59.857 --> 00:44:00.907 CJ: Absolutely. 00:44:01.087 --> 00:44:04.274 Absolutely this one's is, targeted around the build agent. 00:44:04.424 --> 00:44:05.924 But if you go to ServiceNow community, right? 00:44:05.924 --> 00:44:08.710 Like you can get a whole lot of information on, what's going on there. 00:44:08.710 --> 00:44:12.630 And this list, will help you build whatever you're gonna build 00:44:12.630 --> 00:44:13.315 in the build with challenge. 00:44:13.770 --> 00:44:14.880 Duke: here's a recap. 00:44:15.150 --> 00:44:19.560 We have process areas, understanding your catalysts, trying to 00:44:19.560 --> 00:44:20.520 improve the catalyst you have. 00:44:21.550 --> 00:44:25.300 , Understanding the process and how flows, playbooks, ServiceNow 00:44:25.300 --> 00:44:27.400 Logic can execute those. 00:44:27.880 --> 00:44:32.624 Understanding your integration points with, , external systems, beginning, 00:44:32.624 --> 00:44:36.934 middle, and end, managing any work expectations, , especially in terms 00:44:36.934 --> 00:44:40.974 of time, understanding how everything closes, and then understanding 00:44:40.974 --> 00:44:42.684 the outcomes and reporting. 00:44:42.684 --> 00:44:43.824 Corey, you wanna cover the build ones. 00:44:44.265 --> 00:44:44.840 CJ: Yeah, duke. 00:44:44.840 --> 00:44:45.620 Absolutely. 00:44:45.704 --> 00:44:48.434 , So we got good practices validated by instant scan. 00:44:48.854 --> 00:44:51.014 We've got failure detection and remediation. 00:44:51.614 --> 00:44:57.450 You got data governance, Groups, roles and acls, encryption and ATFs tests, and 00:44:57.450 --> 00:45:00.780 note, as you listen to this, how these things are all interconnected, right? 00:45:00.780 --> 00:45:02.820 So build relies upon process. 00:45:03.030 --> 00:45:06.090 Duke: And then remember your legacy, like nobody's gonna be in their jobs forever. 00:45:06.585 --> 00:45:09.465 We want this product to last as long as possible. 00:45:09.795 --> 00:45:12.525 We want people to remember that we were the ones that did it for them. 00:45:13.005 --> 00:45:13.365 Okay? 00:45:13.365 --> 00:45:16.035 So pay attention to your end user documentation. 00:45:16.282 --> 00:45:19.419 Use guided tours as you're able to, , be obsessive about your 00:45:19.419 --> 00:45:22.779 platform owner documentation, and be sure to have a succession plan 00:45:22.779 --> 00:45:24.699 to pass on everything you know. 00:45:25.082 --> 00:45:27.302 CJ: And with that, we will kick it over to the outro.