WEBVTT

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Music.

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I'm Pastor Luke. I'm Pastor Cameron.

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And this is the Uncut Podcast where we have uncut and honest conversations about faith,

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life, and ministry. Today we're kind of picking up where we left off last week.

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So we're going to continue our conversation on sacraments and the theology behind them

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and their purpose and place in kind of Christian theology and practice inside the church.

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Tom Bilyeu Denominationalism. If you're watching this on YouTube and you go back and look at our last video on, I think

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it was, we started with liturgy and church calendar and we moved into the sacraments.

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And someone essentially just says, are you guys Catholic or something?

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As if only Catholics talk about the sacraments or have a sense of their importance or value.

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But, well, I mean, I'll be honest, like that was, that was me at one point, I grew up outside of,

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outside of a highly structured denomination. It was technically a denomination, even though we

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kind of said we weren't a denomination, we were essentially a denomination. But it was very much

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like the, like, we just do what the Bible says, like, and, you know, and I'm not bashing it by any means I grew up and grew as

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a very healthy Christian outside in this theological denomination I grew up in, but I did it was like, Oh, I had a

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very anemic understanding that there I thought there was what.

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My church did, and then Catholics, right? I like and so when I went and I began to interact, I was like,

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Oh, there's other Protestants that...

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Catholics aren't the only ones that baptize babies. Like, that was like, I was like, I'm an Asian. I grew up in to baptize babies.

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Right. Those. Yeah.

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So I was like, what? So, you know, I can, I can sympathize a little bit, but that is like.

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Maybe, you know, I don't know, maybe not everybody knows that. It's like,

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Yeah, I grew up the opposite way. I didn't grow up Catholic, but I grew up in a denomination that,

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that when I say grew up like seventh grade on, grew up in a denomination that regularly

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practiced at least, you know, communion and baptism as sacraments.

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They did baptize babies and, you know, obviously adults, usually by sprinkling.

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So not by immersion. you want to really get... Yeah, you really want to get someone reformed, who's reformed,

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you know, all riled up about baptism, say, well, in my Methodist church, we baptize babies by

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sprinkling. Like, well, you're doubly a heretic, the reformed person says. So...

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Yeah. We're gonna like half dunk them like an Oreo. Right.

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Right. I don't... Actually, I don't know if that... Do reformed people do that or do they just pour?

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No, I guess that's still sprinkling.

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Yeah, I think most Reformed people are full immersion, or at least I would say like the

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evangelical Reformed people, because I think in a sense, like even the Presbyterian church

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would be considered a Reformed theological tradition.

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But I don't think that they have a really strong sacramental theology in terms of sprinkling versus immersion.

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Versus immersion, yeah. But yeah, so the conversation, maybe it seems like it exists more in the realm of...

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Is this Catholic or Protestant or whatever, but it's really just a, I think, a conversation that any,

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Christian would need to have, or at least an opinion.

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It is that broad. I mean, I think maybe what we're running up against is in like,

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and you and I might have more of a perspective on is because you and I, I know, have both

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attended and pastored in different denominational pockets. And not everybody does that. Not

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everybody, or even as an attender, right? Like if you've grown up attending a Baptist church,

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and now you attend maybe a different Baptist church, and if you were to leave that church,

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you'd go to a different Baptist church. Like, there's a certain continuity that might be there.

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You kind of gravitate towards certain churches. But like I, you know, grew up in a very non-denom church,

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attended an Anglican church for a fair little stint, went to some other non-denom stuff,

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went to like some hipster churches in the city, went to a very reformed church for a while.

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Was part of a very charismatic little small house church thing for a bit.

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Bit, like, then kind of bouncing around a little bit more than maybe, maybe not

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everyone's experience has had that much exposure.

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It's not, I'm not sure this is a question I've ever even asked you ever talked

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about, but like, what would you on that whole, that whole spectrum, where would

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village your previous church that you were serving at, where would they fall in like that.

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They were, we were Evangelical Free Church of America, EFCA, was the denomination which we belonged to.

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EFCA is, the best way I kind of know how to describe that denomination as a whole, is

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where I would say probably most non-denoms end up in anyways.

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Like if you were to go to, well, I shouldn't say that I suppose.

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I was in a church plant of the EFCA. And so church plants tend to be the kind of younger.

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Kind of edge, the direction that a denomination might be going, but not representative of the

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previous well-established churches of that denomination. So we would go to, I would say

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they were the established churches of the EFCA were maybe a little bit more conservative in

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practice and maybe held some more conservative or made a bigger deal out of certain eschatological

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opinions, pre-millennial and all that. But as far as the church plants that we were and that I was

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interacting with the other church planters, really wouldn't see anything significantly different

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between conduit and there, except for the one thing that made us very distinctly E-free

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was congregationalism. We had to be a congregational church in polity, or in the way that we churched

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and organized the power structure was. We had to have at least one congregational meeting a year,

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in which the congregation voted on substantial things relating to the church. So like every year we would, it was always a little nerve-wracking, but

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Every year we would have a congregational meeting.

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And they would vote to approve people on the board and things like that.

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We kind of had a bit of a hybrid model.

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And then they also voted as to whether or not me and the other pastor kept our jobs for the next year.

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It's like that, that was how that check and balance went a little bit.

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So that was always kind of an interesting, I don't think anybody ever voted against us

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remaining in the position. So you guys had like a membership structure as well,

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like what makes you a part of the congregation in order to vote?

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Yep, we had like a membership covenant that you needed to sign, and that would mean that

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you were agreeing to abide by our bylaws and constitution, that you were in agreement with

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our statement of faith.

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And once you were a member of the church, you were eligible to be nominated by the board,

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to be part of the board, and then we would have to bring that nominee before the congregation.

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Congregation. I can't remember if the congregation had to vote affirmative or had to just not vote.

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Against you. I can't remember exactly how we had that structured, but it was a default yes,

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as long as nobody raised any significant concerns about the person's character or

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qualification to be on the board. I can't remember exactly how we had that structured,

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but that was... And then the board did the month-to-month, week-to-week kind of

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steering of the church by and large. So that was kind of our church structure. And the board,

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subset of the board was the elders. Right. And so you had to be on the board and then you could

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come and be established an elder through a multi-year process if you wanted to. So that was

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a, so like you've got like an eldership structure inside of a board structure inside of a congregational

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structure. The only thing that was absolutely necessary for us as far as the denomination was

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concerned was the congregational structure.

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Were there like are there denominational officials? We had like a what do we call them?

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Superintendent or regional director. Overseer, superintendent, bishop, something like that.

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Yeah, something like that.

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Yeah, so we had something like that. But it was still I think the history of the denomination came out of Europe.

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It was very Swedish, I think, in kind of its roots.

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And there was a lot of controversy when it kind of formed as a denomination of.

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The state having been very synonymous with the church and anyone, essentially there being some

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conflict over anyone being able to receive communion actually as a fact.

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Pete Oh, very good segue. Yeah, so there was a there was concern because like the state if you were.

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You had to the state had say over membership

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Essentially of the church and so you were having people who were only coming to church,

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every so often and maybe not demonstrating what the

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denomination believed to be marks or signs of being an actual Christian and they were having to,

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to administer communion because the state said so.

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And so they wanted to be a free church. Essentially, that's where the free part

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of the denomination comes from,

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being free, independent from not only the state, but also from a harsh overseeing structure

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that would determine a whole lot of things.

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So.

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In the establishing of that denomination, they very much wanted each congregation to be ruled

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by the congregations, hence the congregationalism, and then generally overseen by the denomination,

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in not so much in a kind of controlling way, but in a accountability way. So it was a,

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hey, like, you can't be teaching that, that's not inside of the lines of what we've said is

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is appropriate for denomination, we will like excommunicate you from the denomination if you continue to do that. And there,

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were some other things too, we had like a yearly meeting, and they would like vote on things as a denomination and all that

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like so you so I think I technically could have gone to that and I think voted on like that while I was part of the

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denomination, they they made a change in the belief statement,

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They changed it from being pre-millennial to glorious return of Christ.

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So they had at one point very held strongly to a pre-millennial coming of Christ.

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And then they found that as time went on, that that became less of a significant theological hill to die on.

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And what they found is that like a growing amount of pastors inside of their denomination,

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not becoming ordained and becoming officially a part of the denomination.

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Because they couldn't agree with the statement. Because they couldn't agree with that one line of the statement. And they're like, well,

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We have a significant population of pastors who are pastoring our churches who are not,

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ordained inside of her denomination because of this one line, and so they voted to change it. That's interesting.

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Yeah. So that's a quick history of that denomination. But as far as like, outward-looking

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practice and everything, I would say that probably most non-denominational churches,

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maybe on a slightly more conservative, like if you were to go right in the middle, non-denom,

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and then go slightly conservative, that would kind of place E-free. And most churches that would

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kind of fit that general spectrum would feel really comfortable in a denomination like that.

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Jonathan Yeah. Yeah. Interesting.

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Yeah. Yeah, it brings me back to all kinds of thoughts and feelings about United Methodism and

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kind of where I was discipled early and grew up and now, you know, United Methodism, if you follow

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all the news at all, or if you care at all,

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it's kind of like the implosion that's generally been happening over the last 50, 60 years,

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is finally like seeing it actually fall out.

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It's almost a mirror of what happened with the Anglican Church.

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And the piece in the Presbyterian Church. In the Presbyterian Church, like it's just,

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each one of those have kind of gone through this.

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They avoided it as much as they could to the point of their avoidance being really unhealthy

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and creating a lot of unhealthy culture and distrust of the episcopacy and the council

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of bishops and all of that.

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I, oh geez, I don't know, Sherry asked me the other night, well I guess it was a while ago,

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like what would you have done if you were still in United Methodism?

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I was like, listen, I got my own problems. I, I. I got my own real problems outside of fictitional ones.

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Right, I don't, I don't gotta rehearse what I would do for a problem that I don't have to be a part of anymore.

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So like, I'm not even gonna go, I'm not even gonna go there.

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But yeah, suffice it to say, their, uh, you know, most denominations, I think, end up being a response to

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something that they didn't like in the previous one.

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Well, and, and non-denominationalism. That's right.

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That's well, it is, it does become a little bit of the pot calling the kettle

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black because a denominational, someone who's very strong in particularly a

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historic mainline denomination would say like, well, just, you guys just go start

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new churches, new denominations all the time, blah, blah, blah.

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But then like all of these big mainline denominations have had a, essentially a split now and had to have had to create the

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conservatives have left the denomination and essentially created a new independent denomination that was by and

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large similar, except for it's going to continue to hold some

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Orthodox and conservative theological tenants while the other denomination is free to do whatever, rather than

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continuing to have that internal fight, they have decided to just simply make separate houses.

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Correct. Yeah. So that's the story for most denominations that split.

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Yeah.

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So, but yeah, communion and sacraments has definitely been like, it's not what denominations are currently splitting over.

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No, historically, it's probably one of the bigger ones. Yeah, like that's been...

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Have people been killed over baptism? I'm sure they have. Like with the Paedo-Baptists? I'm sure they have.

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Or not the Anabaptists, like their persecution. I'm sure they have. I don't, you know, like I'm

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not a super well-read church historian or Christian historian, but I'm certain that,

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people have gotten up in arms about it enough to declare people heretics or enemies of the church

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or whatever the case might be. But both baptism... When we talk about sacraments, we're talking

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about... I don't know. I'm talking about... I don't know what you're talking about. I'm talking about

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baptism and communion. If you're a Catholic person and you're hearing this, you might...

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I think there's seven. There's seven sacraments, some of which not everyone is...

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Is able to take, right? The priesthood.

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Right. Is holy. Holy orders. Holy, yeah, holy orders, yeah.

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Is a sacrament of the church for Roman Catholics.

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So I, when you hear me say sacraments on the podcast, it's talking about baptism or communion.

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Yeah, you're not talking about foot washing.

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Not talking about foot washing, talking about, you know, marriage or holy matrimony or holy orders or anything like that.

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Yeah. So, well, and if you're, I mean, it's conceivable that somebody's listening to this

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and they're going like sacraments, I call those things ordinances.

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What's the difference, Pastor Luke? There's not.

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The spelling. The spelling. The spelling is different. Everything else is the same. Well, some people.

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Or could be the same. Could be the same. I think historically...

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People who have not called sacraments sacraments, but preferred to call them ordinances.

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Have a part of the reasoning being that sacraments is a word that's extra biblical. It's not a word

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that's in the Bible necessarily. Signs and symbols is in the Bible, but that's what

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sacraments is referring to. I think it's coming out of a Latin word.

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Sacramentum. sacramentum and all of that. But usually someone who's referring to baptism and communion,

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and calling it an ordinance is usually trying to leave behind some of the theology associated with,

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sacramental thinking. So there's a potential theological difference there, but by and large,

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we're referring to essentially the same thing. Well, I'd like to, like, you know, both of them

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are pretty big discussions in their own right, baptism and communion. I think we talked a little

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bit more about communion last week. And so to continue kind of on in that conversation.

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You know how in our very first episode we asked the question, what is biblical?

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I guess the question that I would ask in regards to the sacraments...

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Don't do it. Is communion biblical?

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Are you asking me or are you asking the… Church history. Yeah.

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Well, you know… I mean, I'm asking you, I guess, because, you know, I know church history's answer. Yes, I do too.

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But I am certainly not proposing that we have special insight or anything like that, or

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that we're asking questions that no one has ever asked or answered before.

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I'm just simply posing the question as a matter of our conversation is that it's a little

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bit rhetorical because when you, for instance, you read the New Testament, we don't, we don't,

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necessarily see communion talked about or practiced in the same way that we

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kind of understand it or talk about it now. Not in the same way.

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Paul does talk about it in Corinthians. Right. Well and the other thing about it is that we're not given, at least in my reading of Scripture, we're

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not given a whole lot in the way of, here's what this means.

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And so a lot of the theology that has been written and proclaimed around things like,

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I don't know, I'm talking about communion or the Eucharist in particular.

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Stick with that one. Yes.

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Because I think baptism is a lot more clear. Yeah, I think there's more teachings on that.

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There's more teaching on baptism. I was immediately going to certain passages.

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I was like, ooh, we should talk about communion, keeping on track.

00:21:53.600 --> 00:22:02.960
So yeah, the occurrences of communion or Eucharist or the Lord's Supper or breaking of bread or X, Y, or Z.

00:22:04.440 --> 00:22:13.100
In the biblical text is not really voluminous or comprehensive in the way that it like.

00:22:14.397 --> 00:22:18.700
It meets out the theology. Well, yeah.

00:22:18.967 --> 00:22:24.207
A lot of that comes in the church era, not the New Testament era.

00:22:24.207 --> 00:22:31.069
As early believers began to, and the church began to say, how do we practice this?

00:22:31.186 --> 00:22:42.647
They began to create like regular, what's, holy cow, I lost the word, liturgy.

00:22:42.647 --> 00:22:48.263
Regular liturgy, a way of worship in which to practice these things.

00:22:48.447 --> 00:22:55.735
So to kind of answer your question, like I've mentioned a couple, like I joked earlier, foot washing.

00:22:56.607 --> 00:23:00.727
And one of the reasons I joke about that is, I think I mentioned maybe an episode or two

00:23:00.727 --> 00:23:08.347
back is I did encounter a denomination that believed there were three sacraments, baptism,

00:23:08.967 --> 00:23:12.167
communion, and foot washing.

00:23:12.167 --> 00:23:19.767
And that would be a... They would fall underneath a big minority of...

00:23:19.767 --> 00:23:28.487
That's not something that... Historically the church has not considered foot-washing a sacrament.

00:23:29.493 --> 00:23:36.119
But if I just ignore church history, and I look at really the same text in John, and.

00:23:37.407 --> 00:23:45.247
Look at foot washing, Christ does say, do likewise. Right. Right. Like, and so all that,

00:23:45.247 --> 00:23:50.927
I'm not making, I'm not necessarily making an argument that foot washing should be a sacrament.

00:23:51.036 --> 00:23:58.607
But what I'm saying is that I think that, well, foot washing actually makes a textually,

00:23:58.607 --> 00:24:13.965
as far as a biblical thing that Christ has told us to do, like, is the argument much weaker than actually even the argument for communion out of the Bible?

00:24:15.900 --> 00:24:22.070
Does that point make sense? It makes sense, yeah. I think that if I were to answer that from a very like.

00:24:24.272 --> 00:24:32.070
Basic view is that, you know, if the whole of sacramental theology was built upon John 13,

00:24:32.906 --> 00:24:38.310
then I would say that yes, it has the same, you know, Jesus, they're celebrating the Passover

00:24:38.310 --> 00:24:43.350
meal and the breaking of bread and all of that. And what we kind of where we see is the genesis of

00:24:43.350 --> 00:24:46.769
of the communion practice in the early church.

00:24:47.327 --> 00:24:52.404
Foot washing goes along with that. As I have done for you, you are to do for others, type of thing.

00:24:54.030 --> 00:24:58.710
So if all of sacramental theology around communion was built off of John 13, then I would say,

00:24:58.710 --> 00:25:00.610
yeah, that's a pretty strong argument.

00:25:01.550 --> 00:25:08.950
But it's really clear that the church carries on sacramental theology past John 13,

00:25:08.950 --> 00:25:11.110
even to some of the New Testament epistles.

00:25:11.354 --> 00:25:19.663
And then into church history as well, you know. history as well, you know?

00:25:20.110 --> 00:25:23.660
And from the standpoint of like the...

00:25:26.469 --> 00:25:31.679
From the standpoint of like historical theological succession tracing back into those moments,

00:25:31.679 --> 00:25:37.519
it's like, at what point would the church have had a conversation about like, okay,

00:25:37.519 --> 00:25:39.990
is foot washing a sacrament or not? Right?

00:25:40.179 --> 00:25:46.239
Right. Well, and we don't have, like in the New Testament, we have moments where Paul,

00:25:46.895 --> 00:25:53.548
addresses communion. He doesn't do anything similar with foot washing. And so that, you know,

00:25:54.295 --> 00:26:00.339
know, that point, but then also we just know just historically that while foot washing

00:26:00.339 --> 00:26:08.259
may have been a practice, it's not been considered to be on par with communion in any...church

00:26:08.259 --> 00:26:10.553
is not considered that. Right.

00:26:10.868 --> 00:26:17.323
And so... I think part of it is in what in generally we believe that the basis of sacraments are.

00:26:17.999 --> 00:26:25.434
If it is a means, if a sacrament, if the working definition of a sacrament is a means of the grace of God,

00:26:26.325 --> 00:26:30.599
you know, a means by which we receive God's grace.

00:26:34.459 --> 00:26:41.779
There is a little bit of like, I don't know, maybe I'm like splitting theological hairs here,

00:26:41.779 --> 00:26:46.779
but it seems like in, so in communion we have the elements.

00:26:46.779 --> 00:26:51.779
We have bread and wine or juice or the cup or whatever.

00:26:52.423 --> 00:26:54.178
In baptism, we have the water.

00:26:56.179 --> 00:26:59.459
I guess in foot washing, we have the water as well. And the towel.

00:26:59.459 --> 00:27:00.822
And the towel, right?

00:27:00.975 --> 00:27:07.933
But for me, it seems a little bit more like, it seems more of like a horizontal relationship,

00:27:08.150 --> 00:27:13.979
person to person, rather than a means of God's grace coming down.

00:27:13.979 --> 00:27:17.979
In the way in which Jesus doesn't explicitly tie.

00:27:20.708 --> 00:27:27.518
Doesn't tie the gospel as directly to foot washing as he does necessarily communion,

00:27:27.518 --> 00:27:32.638
right? Because communion, he's got the whole dialogue, this is my blood, this is my body,

00:27:33.320 --> 00:27:39.460
poured out and broken for the new covenant that I'm making. He doesn't do that with foot washing,

00:27:39.586 --> 00:27:45.278
right? He says, as I am being a servant, you must also be a servant unto one another.

00:27:45.278 --> 00:27:47.838
Right. As I have loved... And he says the same thing about...

00:27:47.838 --> 00:27:49.798
But same phraseology for other things.

00:27:49.798 --> 00:27:58.838
Right, and that's not to say that that has zero connection to the gospel, but it is not as directly lined up.

00:27:59.998 --> 00:28:03.522
And tied to the gospel the same way communion is.

00:28:03.578 --> 00:28:08.771
But the whole reason I bring that all up is just to say that having a,

00:28:09.098 --> 00:28:15.072
I feel like having a discussion about communion or baptism, the sacraments, and saying,

00:28:15.478 --> 00:28:22.278
let's only think about what the Bible says and not talk at all about church history and church

00:28:22.278 --> 00:28:30.598
practice is to really undercut the entire conversation, I think. It's to unnecessarily

00:28:30.598 --> 00:28:37.983
put us back at square one and to ignore people who were much closer to the original texts,

00:28:38.721 --> 00:28:42.118
and their immediate understanding and interpretation of those texts.

00:28:42.538 --> 00:28:42.358
Yeah.

00:28:43.358 --> 00:28:51.798
And so, like, I've began, I, you know, I came out of a tradition that was like, just the Bible.

00:28:52.838 --> 00:28:58.278
And not tradition. And my journey of faith has been like, well, no, like, I think we should

00:28:58.278 --> 00:29:03.568
learn from tradition, not be bound by it, but I think we should learn from it. And so, when we

00:29:03.878 --> 00:29:10.518
come to, and maybe this is not the point that you were trying to make, but I think if we're asking

00:29:10.518 --> 00:29:19.349
if is communion biblical? And we're asking that question with the idea of excluding tradition.

00:29:19.520 --> 00:29:27.238
I think we undercut the... I think we undercut our conversation and most of the place in which

00:29:27.238 --> 00:29:34.678
we come to stand on, because like you said, the texts on communion are fairly sparse,

00:29:35.499 --> 00:29:37.398
like not absent.

00:29:37.542 --> 00:29:41.318
We see that it exists, we just don't have a good understanding of what it actually means.

00:29:41.318 --> 00:29:46.198
Right. So, I don't know. What do you think about that? Do you agree or do you feel differently

00:29:46.198 --> 00:29:48.813
about the role of tradition and church history in that?

00:29:48.918 --> 00:29:55.638
Well, I mean, you know, I think, yeah, you cut, I think you cut theological belief off at the knees,

00:29:56.564 --> 00:29:59.841
to say that church history is unimportant.

00:30:02.821 --> 00:30:07.391
It's not primary. No one's saying it's primary. Right. Well, some people are.

00:30:07.391 --> 00:30:10.671
Some people would say it's primary. Not you and I. No one in this room is saying it's primary.

00:30:12.084 --> 00:30:22.111
For the same way that we use beliefs in apostolic secession to have faith in the canon.

00:30:23.711 --> 00:30:30.991
It would be the same for me, same thing. Like, okay, why do I trust the Bible?

00:30:31.970 --> 00:30:36.591
Well, I trust the Bible. There are many reasons.

00:30:36.591 --> 00:30:46.671
One of those reasons is the history of apostolic succession, knowing that it's historical connection

00:30:46.671 --> 00:30:58.351
to the people that were proximate to Jesus and their accounts of him, right?

00:30:58.351 --> 00:31:12.151
Me a sense of like, it gives me a peek into the most raw and probably pure form of theological

00:31:12.151 --> 00:31:18.791
relevance that you know, you can have, that there can be.

00:31:18.791 --> 00:31:24.147
That for me still does not answer a lot of the questions that I have about them.

00:31:24.831 --> 00:31:33.791
You know, like I got asked a question once, if you had to say what sacrament was more

00:31:33.791 --> 00:31:38.151
important, what would you say?

00:31:38.151 --> 00:31:48.102
And it's really an impossible question to answer. they function a little bit differently in the life of a believer, I think.

00:31:49.031 --> 00:31:55.551
They still both represent a means by which we receive or experience the grace and presence,

00:31:56.240 --> 00:32:02.431
of Jesus, the grace and presence of God.

00:32:02.431 --> 00:32:10.734
If it were a question that you needed to answer based completely on the textual evidence,

00:32:10.797 --> 00:32:13.791
I think you would have to say that, well, baptism is certainly more.

00:32:15.316 --> 00:32:20.766
In the New Testament than communion is, or at least we have kind of a better grasp theologically

00:32:20.766 --> 00:32:27.397
on what baptism is based on what is said both from Jesus and primarily Paul.

00:32:28.477 --> 00:32:31.691
But it's not really even a question. You can't even answer.

00:32:32.366 --> 00:32:35.486
It's like, well, what is more important? They're both important.

00:32:35.486 --> 00:32:37.588
I'm not going to give up either of them.

00:32:39.646 --> 00:32:48.086
But there's also a certain amount of what I think becomes difficult for 21st century

00:32:48.086 --> 00:32:55.046
peoples, and maybe this is not just us, but all peoples, is that there is the necessity

00:32:55.046 --> 00:33:05.006
of embracing a fair bit of mystery when it comes to sacramental life.

00:33:05.224 --> 00:33:07.457
And we are not generally comfortable with that.

00:33:08.051 --> 00:33:13.106
It's particularly not post-enlightenment. All right comfortable with that. No, so after the,

00:33:14.246 --> 00:33:18.166
1700s or so we kind of all of all of,

00:33:19.367 --> 00:33:30.326
The Western world at least kind of is skewed anything that could not be Logically or rationally or scientifically scientifically explained and so things like how?

00:33:31.295 --> 00:33:39.366
Does a piece of bread and a cup of wine or juice or whatever you are.

00:33:39.366 --> 00:33:41.450
If you're a good Baptist, you only take it with wine, right?

00:33:41.966 --> 00:33:48.471
Or with juice, I should say. Yeah. How do those two things really.

00:33:49.846 --> 00:33:54.006
Like transmit, communicate?

00:33:54.431 --> 00:33:58.686
Right. What is? The presence and means of, how are they means of God's grace?

00:33:58.686 --> 00:34:01.165
I can make bread in my kitchen.

00:34:02.406 --> 00:34:06.806
Why is it now something special? because it's on the altar

00:34:06.806 --> 00:34:09.654
and we're proclaiming words of institution over them.

00:34:10.401 --> 00:34:16.018
And there is a bit of mystery wrapped up how God works by His grace.

00:34:16.991 --> 00:34:22.281
Or by His presence to administer grace through those really practical, tangible,

00:34:23.049 --> 00:34:30.921
in-your-mouth type of means. Exactly. And yeah, and so we are just, we live in a culture that

00:34:30.921 --> 00:34:37.401
loves an explanation for everything, right? And we love to have everything systematized.

00:34:39.226 --> 00:34:43.401
I'm not, I don't want to bash systematic theology because I think systematic theology

00:34:43.401 --> 00:34:49.001
has a lot of gifts for the church. But I think one of the downsides of it is that systematic

00:34:49.001 --> 00:34:58.374
theology is not good at making room for mystery or complexity in it. Like, we want a system

00:34:58.617 --> 00:35:05.513
of how God operates, and then everything must fit inside of that system. And I think sometimes

00:35:05.666 --> 00:35:12.301
that can lead to pushing and ignoring mystery or simplifying things so that they fit into

00:35:12.301 --> 00:35:16.221
a box and that's not always the best thing. I always get that feeling when I read books on the

00:35:16.221 --> 00:35:22.861
trinity. Yeah. I'm like bro you made that up. You made that up. Like we're reading the same text,

00:35:22.861 --> 00:35:26.941
you're stretching it here to make it fit your thesis. Oh yeah the amount of times that someone

00:35:26.941 --> 00:35:34.541
pulls a like a singular passage like one verse out of psalm and makes a giant theological

00:35:34.541 --> 00:35:38.389
implication out of it just makes me mad. Just can we just all say we don't get it.

00:35:38.983 --> 00:35:39.981
Right. I don't get it.

00:35:40.781 --> 00:35:46.932
Faith seeking understanding, not obtaining understanding. That's a famous quote is

00:35:47.157 --> 00:35:52.595
faith seeking understanding. I think sometimes we've taken that quote and wanted it to say

00:35:52.701 --> 00:35:59.661
faith obtaining understanding. And we seek understanding, we don't necessarily guarantee that we obtain it.

00:36:01.261 --> 00:36:07.741
So if we were to trace some of the biblical evidence for communion.

00:36:07.741 --> 00:36:09.101
Yeah. Okay. Let's start there.

00:36:09.821 --> 00:36:20.621
Where, like, I think we would both start, I would start in the last days of Jesus' life. Mm-hmm.

00:36:21.834 --> 00:36:24.461
He meets with his disciples in an upper room. Yes.

00:36:24.461 --> 00:36:31.981
In fact, he gives them direction to go into Jerusalem and to prepare the Passover meal.

00:36:32.322 --> 00:36:32.621
Mm-hmm.

00:36:33.690 --> 00:36:38.861
Which is an interesting caveat. Well, I was about to say, I was like, you know, I was thinking, I was like, is there

00:36:38.861 --> 00:36:43.261
anywhere else you could start? I think you could start with Passover.

00:36:43.261 --> 00:36:44.223
Could start with Passover.

00:36:44.529 --> 00:36:47.301
Well, even you could even start with,

00:36:49.129 --> 00:36:52.099
There is no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood post-Cain.

00:36:52.217 --> 00:36:59.779
Well, you could, but there's not, there's also not, there's not ample enough evidence in the

00:36:59.779 --> 00:37:05.219
Gospels that what Jesus and his disciples were eating that night was the Passover.

00:37:07.223 --> 00:37:14.099
I mean, if you take the text at its face value, Jesus sends them in to prepare the Passover meal,

00:37:14.434 --> 00:37:21.859
But as far as I know, none of the gospels say, and as they sat down to eat the Passover meal,

00:37:21.859 --> 00:37:22.899
Jesus took the bread.

00:37:23.158 --> 00:37:31.779
Right. Interesting. So when was Passover? Was it on Good Friday, the day he was being crucified?

00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:38.939
I don't know. Do we know? I don't know. I've always, like that is a new thing. I have always assumed that it was a

00:37:39.200 --> 00:37:40.739
Passover meal that they were having.

00:37:40.919 --> 00:37:46.659
I mean, I think that's the easy assumption because of what Jesus says. I mean, that would

00:37:46.659 --> 00:37:52.505
be the most logical inference that we can make is that he sends them into Jerusalem to prepare

00:37:52.883 --> 00:38:01.699
for the Passover meal. But we know what the Passover generally included or did from Old

00:38:01.699 --> 00:38:07.139
Testament texts, the historical narratives. But we don't see any of those other elements

00:38:07.139 --> 00:38:12.139
in the gospel accounts of this Passover celebration.

00:38:13.779 --> 00:38:18.699
Other than the fact that they're sitting at a table eating a meal with two elements that would not have been,

00:38:18.699 --> 00:38:22.939
that would have been at the table for any meal in the ancient Near East.

00:38:24.265 --> 00:38:29.657
You know, there was no, now like, That's maybe.

00:38:30.962 --> 00:38:37.692
Like a pretty, maybe I'm being a little cheeky. A little minimalist.

00:38:37.692 --> 00:38:44.992
Yeah, a little cheeky about all that because, you know, because all other things point to the fact,

00:38:45.978 --> 00:38:49.264
that it probably was the Passover,

00:38:49.872 --> 00:38:54.252
even when you begin to consider the theological implications of the,

00:38:54.252 --> 00:39:00.452
or what the theology of the Passover was, the theology of, you know, Jesus being the lamb

00:39:00.452 --> 00:39:02.332
that was slain before the foundations of the world.

00:39:02.332 --> 00:39:07.352
And like, you know, so I think that like people who say it was the Passover meal stand on probably

00:39:07.352 --> 00:39:09.681
pretty good, solid foundation. However.

00:39:10.284 --> 00:39:14.612
Right, well, cause the symbology is still there because Jesus did say prepare for Passover.

00:39:14.722 --> 00:39:18.855
Like Passover was happening, whether or not it was specifically tied to that meal.

00:39:18.932 --> 00:39:21.572
Passover was happening. That's the reason he was in Jerusalem.

00:39:21.572 --> 00:39:22.612
That's the reason he was in Jerusalem.

00:39:22.612 --> 00:39:30.352
Well, I think that at least still continues to carry at least significant overtones of understanding

00:39:30.576 --> 00:39:36.832
atonement. If you want to say like that maybe weakens the argument for its direct correlation

00:39:36.832 --> 00:39:40.432
to communion, fine, but I think the atonement stuff's still there.

00:39:40.432 --> 00:39:44.352
So maybe we begin to say that, all right, well, then is communion.

00:39:46.992 --> 00:39:53.312
The Christian way of celebrating Passover? Well, no.

00:39:54.288 --> 00:39:59.941
So it doesn't hold the same theological themes. No, because we're not celebrating Passover.

00:40:00.192 --> 00:40:04.937
Right, we're not. But the reason that we're not celebrating Passover is because we're not Jewish.

00:40:05.612 --> 00:40:14.512
Right. Right? Yes. We celebrate what Christ did for us on the cross, but if the institution of communion was done by

00:40:14.512 --> 00:40:22.912
Jesus in the theological tradition of Passover, then we are...

00:40:24.274 --> 00:40:29.484
I mean, it would make sense to me that the common thread of God's atonement for sin,

00:40:30.513 --> 00:40:36.844
right, runs from Passover through Jesus in the words of institution when he breaks bread in,

00:40:37.607 --> 00:40:43.404
the cup and gives it to his disciples, and then through the New Testament church,

00:40:44.124 --> 00:40:51.564
which was both Greek and Jew. So it feels to me like the celebration of communion

00:40:51.564 --> 00:40:56.564
and follows the thread of salvation through Passover.

00:41:01.664 --> 00:41:08.144
And so that's why I asked the question, is like, well, it feels a little bit like,

00:41:09.264 --> 00:41:13.732
not a Christian Passover in the actual, like the historical sense,

00:41:14.318 --> 00:41:17.235
but a Christian Passover in the theological sense.

00:41:17.424 --> 00:41:25.030
That the same theological themes have not stopped. Passing over of judgment, sacrifice, atonement.

00:41:25.504 --> 00:41:28.024
Because the sacrifice has been made, blood has been spilled.

00:41:28.024 --> 00:41:32.133
Death of the firstborn. Death of the firstborn. Freedom and new life afterwards, right?

00:41:32.412 --> 00:41:34.699
Like that's, boom.

00:41:35.904 --> 00:41:43.784
We preached the Bible. Yeah. Yeah. So, all right, so yeah, like maybe.

00:41:46.664 --> 00:41:50.664
You don't have to go back there, but like, you know, you're welcome to,

00:41:50.664 --> 00:41:56.144
like you can start it at least the last supper. Well, I mean, to be perfectly honest with you,

00:41:56.144 --> 00:41:58.944
like I think that if you,

00:42:01.584 --> 00:42:09.691
if you wanna create a more robust position of theological belief on communion,

00:42:10.564 --> 00:42:17.424
the New Testament is not full of it, but the old is, if you're saying that it's connected with,

00:42:17.424 --> 00:42:25.958
if you're saying that like there is a unbreakable link between communion at the end stage

00:42:26.084 --> 00:42:28.271
and Passover at the beginning stage.

00:42:28.444 --> 00:42:35.604
So what we do on the first Sunday of every month and what God instituted in the Old Testament

00:42:35.604 --> 00:42:42.844
in the Passover and, you know, Day of Atonement and all of that.

00:42:44.004 --> 00:42:46.870
I think I agree with that. Yeah. I think that's there.

00:42:47.044 --> 00:42:53.685
I think we're not aware of it because we're Gentiles, we're not Jewish, and so the...

00:42:54.144 --> 00:42:57.564
Well, we don't ever talk about communion outside of the New Testament.

00:42:57.952 --> 00:43:04.604
Right. That's where the implications for Gentiles starts.

00:43:05.703 --> 00:43:14.433
In order to talk about the Old Testament implications, like it requires a little bit

00:43:14.433 --> 00:43:22.353
more, not to say that that has zero meaning for the Christian who's Gentile, but it does require

00:43:22.353 --> 00:43:31.153
us to understand the historical context of what it meant to the Israelite Jewish people, and then

00:43:31.153 --> 00:43:36.202
and how that then is fulfilled and then expanded in the Last Supper.

00:43:37.053 --> 00:43:43.253
Like we have to, we can't, it's not enough to simply, if you were to get up and do communion

00:43:43.253 --> 00:43:48.437
and we were to, you were to present and you were to talk about Exodus

00:43:48.753 --> 00:43:52.091
and the Passover and the lamb on the doors,

00:43:52.533 --> 00:43:58.600
and to talk about that, and then to say nothing of Christ,

00:43:59.233 --> 00:44:03.605
you would have not talked about communion.

00:44:04.313 --> 00:44:14.273
Correct. Right? It requires us to, it's a two step of what it was and what it now is because of communion in Christ.

00:44:14.273 --> 00:44:18.433
You have to go back and then come forward to the cross every single time.

00:44:18.433 --> 00:44:20.899
The more perfect covenant made by his blood.

00:44:21.233 --> 00:44:27.233
Right, yeah. And so I think sometimes we don't always go back because well, we know we're just gonna end up

00:44:27.233 --> 00:44:30.837
at the cross anyways. So sometimes we shortcut it that way. Yeah.

00:44:31.473 --> 00:44:37.904
But we lose then I think it's theological ground. It's really strong theological anchoring.

00:44:38.113 --> 00:44:44.153
Yeah. Well, and the anchoring of, you know, it's interesting cause like as I'm thinking about this,

00:44:44.153 --> 00:44:46.267
I'm like, yeah, like that really,

00:44:46.513 --> 00:44:54.653
it provides even just a greater anchor for the gospel period, right?

00:44:54.653 --> 00:45:04.767
If we have this greater understanding like, if I go up to someone who's never interacted with Christianity before and I just say,

00:45:05.100 --> 00:45:07.113
Christ died for your sins on the cross.

00:45:09.718 --> 00:45:17.648
That is a pretty weird statement, if you haven't at first also believed the presupposition that,

00:45:18.603 --> 00:45:20.179
there is no forgiveness without the shedding of blood.

00:45:22.348 --> 00:45:28.208
Or that I need forgiveness at all. Or that I need forgiveness at all. That the heart is endlessly wicked and deceitful and

00:45:28.208 --> 00:45:33.328
who can discern it except for God. That we have all gone astray. That we, there's a way of living

00:45:33.328 --> 00:45:38.128
in righteousness and a way of living in folly and we have chose folly over and over again, right?

00:45:38.264 --> 00:45:46.483
All that is Old Testament theology. Without that, Christ does not make sense.

00:45:46.608 --> 00:45:49.648
Right. Right. And we were talking the other day,

00:45:52.263 --> 00:45:55.968
in a couple of meetings about how Jesus in his appearance on the road to Emmaus,

00:45:56.768 --> 00:46:04.528
in post in Luke chapter 24, how Jesus in his post-resurrection appearances,

00:46:05.298 --> 00:46:09.528
or post-resurrection, pre-ascension appearances.

00:46:13.648 --> 00:46:21.248
Connects the work of his resurrection into new life with all that was said about him in the law,

00:46:21.248 --> 00:46:24.113
in the prophets, and the Psalms,

00:46:25.008 --> 00:46:32.845
that the truth of not Jesus as the person, but as the Christ, the truth of the Christ,

00:46:33.288 --> 00:46:41.694
the Savior, the Messiah, the one who has come to take away the sins of the world, be atoning sacrifice for our sins,

00:46:45.228 --> 00:46:54.748
is that theological theme is traced all the way back into the first breaths of Scripture that we have.

00:46:56.557 --> 00:46:55.891
Yeah.

00:47:00.908 --> 00:47:09.348
So we agree. We agree. Yep, the Old Testament is important to the theology of the New Testament and the gospel

00:47:09.348 --> 00:47:12.302
as a whole and to how we understand communion.

00:47:13.468 --> 00:47:17.190
So that we see Jesus, let's just assume it was the Passover meal.

00:47:18.428 --> 00:47:25.976
See Jesus institute or not institute, but talk about the breaking of the body and the shedding of blood.

00:47:26.778 --> 00:47:36.748
In fact, we can just pick a…we've been talking about John chapter 13.

00:47:39.201 --> 00:47:59.091
It's one of the longer institutions of it, isn't it? Yeah, but it also really talks about more about his, more about the foot washing than

00:47:59.091 --> 00:48:00.086
it does about the meal.

00:48:00.437 --> 00:48:07.297
Maybe John's not the greatest example here. It is interesting though that in John chapter 13, he says it was just before the Passover,

00:48:08.116 --> 00:48:25.131
feast. Oh, interesting. So perhaps. But where are you? Oh, I actually went to Luke 22. Yeah. Verse

00:48:25.131 --> 00:48:30.331
7 says, actually then came the day of the unleavened bread on which the Passover lamb had to be

00:48:30.331 --> 00:48:37.103
sacrificed. So Jesus said, go make preparations for us to eat the Passover. Yeah.

00:48:38.814 --> 00:48:39.291
Parrot.

00:48:42.469 --> 00:48:49.851
And then verse 14, then the hour came Jesus and his apostles were climbing at the table. So I usually desire to eat this

00:48:49.851 --> 00:48:55.657
Passover with you. Okay, so Jesus answers the question already is the Passover. Passover meal according to Luke. Okay.

00:48:55.891 --> 00:49:05.251
Well, Luke could be wrong. All right, yeah.

00:49:07.549 --> 00:49:18.011
And so he, verse 17, Luke 22, after taking the cup, he gave thanks and said, take this

00:49:18.011 --> 00:49:22.171
and divide it among you for I tell you I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until

00:49:22.367 --> 00:49:23.465
the kingdom of God comes.

00:49:25.148 --> 00:49:27.851
Then he took the bread, gave thanks, and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, This is my

00:49:27.851 --> 00:49:30.649
body given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.

00:49:31.771 --> 00:49:36.291
In the same way, after the supper, he took the cup, saying, This cup is the new covenant

00:49:36.291 --> 00:49:38.472
in my blood, which is poured out for you.

00:49:38.791 --> 00:49:50.131
But the hand of him who is going to betray me is with mine at the table." So that's, you know, Luke's account is a little bit, probably, I would guess, would

00:49:50.131 --> 00:49:52.398
be the account that most people have heard the least.

00:49:52.830 --> 00:49:57.611
Really? In, at least in like the liturgical life around communion.

00:49:58.251 --> 00:50:05.211
I think the ones that we, or at least maybe the phraseology that I'm most familiar with, I think is out of Matthew.

00:50:06.091 --> 00:50:16.051
Um, go to it here. I should have these things marked.

00:50:18.235 --> 00:50:29.613
26. Yeah. On the first day of the feast of the unleavened bread, the disciples came to Jesus.

00:50:30.845 --> 00:50:34.165
Where do you want us to make preparations for Passover?

00:50:34.385 --> 00:50:44.245
Then, down in verse 26, Matthew 26, 26. While they were eating, Jesus took bread, gave thanks, and broke it, and gave it to

00:50:44.245 --> 00:50:46.061
a disciple, saying, Take and eat.

00:50:46.325 --> 00:50:50.859
This is my body. the cup, gave thanks, and offered it to them, saying, Drink from it, all of you. This is

00:50:51.205 --> 00:50:54.496
my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for the many for the forgiveness of sins.

00:50:55.099 --> 00:50:58.185
I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now until on the day when

00:50:58.185 --> 00:51:02.445
I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom." It's pretty short.

00:51:02.885 --> 00:51:06.334
Then they sung a hymn. Then they sung a hymn.

00:51:06.631 --> 00:51:16.305
It's an argument for hymns, Cameron. It's not, by the way. And that logic, verse 30, it says,

00:51:16.305 --> 00:51:18.305
when they had sung a hymn, they went to the Mount of Olives.

00:51:18.305 --> 00:51:24.285
It would also be argument for climbing a mountain. Post service. Yeah.

00:51:27.066 --> 00:51:38.005
But that's really all we get in terms of explanation. you know, whatever we get in the book of Acts.

00:51:42.154 --> 00:51:50.184
You know, I'm feeling a little ill-equipped at this point to fully explore a theology of

00:51:50.427 --> 00:51:58.884
communion in the book of Acts. But, you know, I was reading earlier today, because I think I

00:51:58.884 --> 00:52:04.484
kind of knew that we were going to talk about this. Yeah. In Corinthians.

00:52:05.596 --> 00:52:23.124
Yep. First Corinthians. 1 Corinthians. Yep. And 10 as well. So we have Paul's letter to the Corinthians and he has some,

00:52:24.014 --> 00:52:32.964
spots in there about communion or the Lord's supper. So 1 Corinthians 10, verse 14,

00:52:32.964 --> 00:52:36.604
Therefore, my dear friends, flee from idolatry.

00:52:36.604 --> 00:52:40.516
I speak to sensible people. Judge for yourselves what I say.

00:52:41.644 --> 00:52:49.266
Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ?

00:52:50.850 --> 00:52:57.204
And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

00:52:57.204 --> 00:53:04.867
Because there is one loaf, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

00:53:05.479 --> 00:53:15.124
A couple points that I would make about this particular portion of what Paul says about

00:53:15.124 --> 00:53:19.924
communion, or that I find interesting, I guess, not points. I'm not sure I preach right now.

00:53:20.504 --> 00:53:23.898
One is that this is one of those places where we hear.

00:53:25.185 --> 00:53:29.221
Paul talk about communion sort of in the same way that he talks about baptism.

00:53:29.470 --> 00:53:32.666
RL – Participation. PT – Participation in the life of Christ.

00:53:33.530 --> 00:53:36.429
RL – Yep. Union. PT – Union. Unity with Christ.

00:53:36.741 --> 00:53:42.019
So in baptism, we are united with Christ in his death so that we can be united with him

00:53:42.163 --> 00:53:45.602
like this in his resurrection, Romans chapter 6.

00:53:46.781 --> 00:53:54.061
First Corinthians 11 or 10, I should say, when we give thanks because of, or we take

00:53:54.061 --> 00:54:01.621
from the cup in participation in the blood of Jesus Christ, and we take of the bread

00:54:01.621 --> 00:54:06.861
in participation in the body of Christ.

00:54:06.861 --> 00:54:12.582
Now are those, what do those things mean?

00:54:12.821 --> 00:54:17.301
What are we alluding to when we say, well, we're participating in the blood of Christ,

00:54:17.301 --> 00:54:20.941
we're participating in the broken body, breaking of Christ?

00:54:21.080 --> 00:54:25.181
Well, so this leads me to kind of ask a question I've had sitting in my back pocket, because you've

00:54:25.181 --> 00:54:30.061
said it a couple times, and I don't know that everyone is familiar with it, but I think this

00:54:30.061 --> 00:54:35.181
passage is maybe one of the stronger passages actually for the basis of what you're saying.

00:54:36.069 --> 00:54:38.701
Cameron, what do you mean when you say it's a means of grace?

00:54:40.498 --> 00:54:51.941
It's a way in which God… I know it's like I was like, and it's because you've said it a couple times.

00:54:51.941 --> 00:54:56.153
You've like, commune, like, I believe that communion is a means of grace.

00:54:56.270 --> 00:54:57.215
I agree with you.

00:54:57.801 --> 00:55:02.040
Out of the two of us, you're probably the one with a little bit better.

00:55:02.490 --> 00:55:07.577
I would be, I'd be hard pressed to give a clear explanation as to why I think that,

00:55:08.421 --> 00:55:09.800
or exactly what I mean.

00:55:09.908 --> 00:55:15.021
I think I'm a little vague on what I mean by that. I mean, to give like maybe what would be a pretty like,

00:55:17.721 --> 00:55:28.761
sterile definition, I guess it would be a practical way in which God transmits his grace in Jesus Christ to us.

00:55:31.401 --> 00:55:38.681
So like it becomes a tangible expression of a spiritual reality.

00:55:39.201 --> 00:55:44.761
Yeah, so the participation. Participation is a way in which we experience.

00:55:44.761 --> 00:55:51.589
Something that we physically experience that represents a deeper spiritual reality.

00:55:53.361 --> 00:55:56.576
That we experience in the physical world.

00:55:57.161 --> 00:56:02.112
But that is linked with the mysterious transmission of the grace of God through Jesus Christ.

00:56:02.961 --> 00:56:09.035
And I think that right there is probably this significant difference between.

00:56:10.215 --> 00:56:15.504
That's what we mean when we call it a sacrament versus just calling it maybe an ordinance,

00:56:16.144 --> 00:56:23.664
at least in my mind, that right there, that distinctive, that it's not just a thing that we do

00:56:23.790 --> 00:56:30.224
because we were told to do it, and it's a place of just remembering that Jesus did this,

00:56:31.109 --> 00:56:35.781
but that there's also something that Christ is actively doing.

00:56:35.904 --> 00:56:44.486
In that moment. in that moment that we are participating in some way in this, in a physical and spiritual sense.

00:56:44.630 --> 00:56:50.944
Not that I know how, I leave all of that a mystery. But simply say it seems that there

00:56:50.944 --> 00:56:58.544
is a spiritual dynamic going on at the table, because that's how Paul talks. And there we go.

00:56:58.544 --> 00:57:05.074
Oh, so for me, I think that's a key, key point in a growing understanding of,

00:57:06.104 --> 00:57:09.179
we're not just taking juice and bread.

00:57:10.024 --> 00:57:15.344
We are participating in something and we're participating specifically in Christ.

00:57:15.344 --> 00:57:17.632
Yes. In a very real sense.

00:57:17.864 --> 00:57:28.444
In communion, shedding of his blood, breaking of his body, which extends to us what?

00:57:29.344 --> 00:57:34.313
What does the participation in the breaking of Jesus' body shedding of his blood extend to us.

00:57:36.276 --> 00:57:42.186
I mean, like, yeah, I mean, the guy, it essentially extends to us what was accomplished by Jesus

00:57:42.186 --> 00:57:47.979
on the cross, right, which is the ability for us to be reconciled to God through forgiveness and faith.

00:57:48.406 --> 00:57:58.046
You know, the significant, like, these are deep realities, realities that I'm not even

00:57:58.046 --> 00:58:05.206
like, I even like inwardly tremble a little bit to even like try to talk about.

00:58:05.206 --> 00:58:14.286
You know, so like maybe the question again between what we celebrate on Good Friday and

00:58:14.286 --> 00:58:21.766
what we celebrate on Easter Sunday, like we participate in the body and blood of Christ on Good Friday.

00:58:21.766 --> 00:58:28.166
We participate in the resurrection of Jesus Christ on Easter Sunday because through the

00:58:28.166 --> 00:58:31.086
the blood and through the body we are forgiven.

00:58:31.883 --> 00:58:39.472
Our sin is...we are put to death, like our sin is put to death, and we are raised to,

00:58:40.466 --> 00:58:48.492
new life in Christ by the same spirit that raised him from the dead.

00:58:51.806 --> 00:58:59.786
And so a little bit of the understanding of, again, the sacraments is it is, again, a full

00:58:59.786 --> 00:59:08.146
retelling in many ways, a full retelling of the gospel, which there again is the benefit of liturgy.

00:59:08.146 --> 00:59:13.026
It gives an opportunity to retell the gospel in the midst of the means of grace of the

00:59:13.026 --> 00:59:19.199
gospel in the moment of celebration.

00:59:19.506 --> 00:59:28.326
It adds a, I'm enjoying and liking this conversation because it, for me, it gives at least me the

00:59:28.326 --> 00:59:33.323
space to sit here to retread this theologically so that.

00:59:34.926 --> 00:59:44.864
Next time we do communion, like I am fresh again inside of the meaning and the fullness of what's happening.

00:59:45.152 --> 00:59:53.316
I think sometimes we can, this is life, right? We get caught up into life and what should not be mundane and ordinary becomes mundane

00:59:53.316 --> 00:59:54.299
and ordinary.

00:59:54.936 --> 01:00:02.050
And so this, like the fact that we are invited by Christ to participate in the cross and

01:00:02.376 --> 01:00:07.136
in his body and that's something we get to do on a Sunday morning.

01:00:07.136 --> 01:00:11.439
I think it's huge.

01:00:11.616 --> 01:00:17.936
Which is why doing it every Sunday morning does not cheapen it or make it less special.

01:00:18.416 --> 01:00:23.656
Because our frequency of participating in Christ, like one cannot participate in Christ

01:00:23.656 --> 01:00:32.441
enough. Yes, I only desire to participate in the work of Christ that has won for me salvation and forgiveness of sins.

01:00:32.816 --> 01:00:36.448
First Sunday of the month, I'm good, the rest of it. I don't want it to become too familiar to me.

01:00:37.136 --> 01:00:43.235
Because then it becomes... Yeah, we've gone down that rabbit hole before.

01:00:43.616 --> 01:00:52.296
But also, it merits to say that we don't go as far as Catholics would say, and say that

01:00:52.296 --> 01:01:00.808
We don't have the continuation of that theology where we're denying people Christ.

01:01:00.976 --> 01:01:08.603
Or someone has to be saved in order to...

01:01:09.896 --> 01:01:16.238
In order to be saved, one must be able to take communion, or have taken communion. Or the reverse.

01:01:16.696 --> 01:01:18.290
Or you have to be saved in order to take communion.

01:01:19.857 --> 01:01:28.130
Yeah. Well, that's a topic that we got to talk about. I want to, like, that's a bigger topic, I feel like.

01:01:28.896 --> 01:01:32.802
Because at least my impression is that historically the church has made that distinction.

01:01:35.241 --> 01:01:40.570
I think in some cases they have. Not all. Not all. Not all.

01:01:41.813 --> 01:01:51.211
Yeah, we talked last week in the podcast about the didache, which was extra biblical teaching

01:01:51.481 --> 01:01:58.576
surrounding the practices and history of the church in its earliest form.

01:01:58.576 --> 01:02:03.936
And one section of the didache essentially withheld the sacraments, particularly the

01:02:03.936 --> 01:02:14.416
the Eucharist in this case, from those who had not explicitly expressed, I don't remember

01:02:14.416 --> 01:02:19.082
the exact language, but who had not, essentially who are not yet Christian.

01:02:19.181 --> 01:02:19.442
Right.

01:02:20.096 --> 01:02:25.627
Right. Or not yet baptized Christians. Should we pull it up?

01:02:26.230 --> 01:02:31.613
Yeah, I think I can grab it really quick. I was reading it earlier today.

01:02:35.980 --> 01:02:45.030
Because I think there is a fine line there of like, I don't think either of us would say that,

01:02:46.179 --> 01:02:51.350
someone who is not professing Christ in any manner.

01:02:55.590 --> 01:03:15.030
Communion would be for them, I don't think. So this will be Didache 810, the ninth, well actually the ninth section in Didache.

01:03:15.030 --> 01:03:19.230
Concerning the broken bread, we give ye, we give thee thanks our Father for the life and

01:03:19.230 --> 01:03:24.691
knowledge which thou didst make known to us through Jesus thy servant.

01:03:25.350 --> 01:03:29.831
To thee be glory for ever, as this broken bread was scattered upon the mountains, but

01:03:30.200 --> 01:03:31.650
was brought together and became one.

01:03:32.410 --> 01:03:36.601
So let thy church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into thy kingdom, for

01:03:36.655 --> 01:03:40.013
thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever.

01:03:40.290 --> 01:03:45.981
But let none eat or drink of your Eucharist except those who have been baptized in the Lord's name.

01:03:46.150 --> 01:03:53.030
Concerning this also did the Lord say, give not that which is holy to dogs.",

01:03:55.884 --> 01:04:00.630
So they connected the words of Jesus, don't give what is holy to the dogs.

01:04:00.630 --> 01:04:03.990
Ritch Yes, which is its own very unique passage.

01:04:03.990 --> 01:04:13.204
Ken Right. So at least that idea was at least existing within the early church.

01:04:13.710 --> 01:04:14.365
We know that.

01:04:18.870 --> 01:04:23.870
I think that when we,

01:04:27.230 --> 01:04:31.170
this is a really tricky one for me. It is. It's really tricky.

01:04:32.235 --> 01:04:40.859
Because I think if we have a primary theology of communion as a participation in the death of Christ,

01:04:44.950 --> 01:04:51.149
the broken body and the shedding of the blood, then I would lean towards the,

01:04:55.416 --> 01:05:06.065
yeah, you need to probably profess faith in that work work in order for it to be, like, in order to participate in it.

01:05:06.390 --> 01:05:11.390
You know, or to...in order to participate in communion, you should profess faith in the,

01:05:12.898 --> 01:05:17.390
you know, the work of Jesus Christ for the death of Jesus Christ for your salvation.

01:05:17.390 --> 01:05:18.083
You should be Christian.

01:05:18.390 --> 01:05:21.216
Christian. Yep.

01:05:22.692 --> 01:05:32.406
If we lean towards maybe a different way, which would say that the elements that are at the table.

01:05:37.447 --> 01:05:48.970
Are means by which God extends his grace and forgiveness to all those present, then I would lean towards like,

01:05:49.492 --> 01:05:57.351
I would lean towards like, well, God's grace and forgiveness is present and offered to all, you know,

01:05:57.540 --> 01:05:59.431
while we were still sinners, right.

01:06:00.493 --> 01:06:10.774
Christ died for us. So the sacrifice of Jesus and the offering of what he did and all that's theologically bound up in that was,

01:06:12.241 --> 01:06:17.542
particularly for sinners, not those who had expressed faith in Jesus.

01:06:17.542 --> 01:06:21.742
There was no faith in Jesus before, you get what I'm saying, right?

01:06:21.742 --> 01:06:24.646
Car before the horse, chicken or the egg.

01:06:25.802 --> 01:06:36.802
And so if in the act and practice of breaking the bread, sharing the cup, we are proclaiming

01:06:36.802 --> 01:06:45.640
the offering of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins, then isn't it in a very real way

01:06:45.802 --> 01:06:50.802
a proclamation or an invitation to come and believe,

01:06:52.184 --> 01:06:57.792
to come and receive the gift of God that is given to us in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of our sins.

01:06:58.122 --> 01:06:59.800
And.

01:07:01.610 --> 01:07:08.740
I know it would be many people's testimony that the gospel was proclaimed to them many,

01:07:08.740 --> 01:07:16.420
many, many times before they accepted, internalized.

01:07:18.984 --> 01:07:27.060
And so, you know, from a practical standpoint as pastors, what are we to do?

01:07:27.060 --> 01:07:31.740
Or we just say, okay, listen to the proclamation of the gospel, but if you are not ready to

01:07:31.740 --> 01:07:35.395
receive it and internalize it, do not take the elements.

01:07:36.260 --> 01:07:36.601
Why?

01:07:39.180 --> 01:07:47.404
Do we like, does the person speak judgment upon themselves by doing so?

01:07:47.860 --> 01:07:50.906
Like we're not saved through communion.

01:07:51.500 --> 01:08:01.940
So are we condemned by through it? Which we talked about last episode that as it goes on in 1 Corinthians.

01:08:01.940 --> 01:08:08.460
Yeah, I love the opportunity to talk about that sometimes. It's an extraordinarily misunderstood passage.

01:08:08.460 --> 01:08:13.220
I got in a big argument with a seminary friend in a seminary classroom about that passage

01:08:13.220 --> 01:08:17.580
and just completely ignoring the context of it.

01:08:18.580 --> 01:08:27.660
But anyway, so if it doesn't save us, which we all agree that it doesn't,

01:08:27.660 --> 01:08:29.462
communion does not save us. Yep.

01:08:31.758 --> 01:08:33.020
Can it condemn us?

01:08:36.133 --> 01:08:42.943
By taking it, can we condemn it? Or is it just not good, wise practice to take it? It seems like,

01:08:44.223 --> 01:08:51.583
it's either a, well, it condemns you if you take it and you have not believed,

01:08:52.143 --> 01:09:00.303
or it's not a big deal. I'm having a hard time understanding how it can be somewhere in the

01:09:00.303 --> 01:09:05.743
middle like, well, it's not advisable that you take communion if you haven't believed.

01:09:05.743 --> 01:09:06.063
Right.

01:09:07.308 --> 01:09:11.823
But you can if you want, I guess. Mm-hmm.

01:09:12.025 --> 01:09:15.583
Doesn't feel to me like that's historically the church's position.

01:09:15.583 --> 01:09:16.943
No, I don't think so.

01:09:17.778 --> 01:09:26.943
So I don't know. That's not really an answer. No, I mean, I think to go back to that 1 Corinthians 10 passage, it does,

01:09:26.943 --> 01:09:34.855
does it not say, does it not make mention about participation in the body?

01:09:36.080 --> 01:09:45.943
Or am I conflating with what we just read? Because there is one loaf, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

01:09:45.943 --> 01:09:54.943
Right. So there, in that unique, in that passage alone, I feel like it carries maybe two of the poles.

01:09:54.943 --> 01:09:59.459
It's about participating in the thing that Christ is doing.

01:10:02.063 --> 01:10:09.523
But then it is also a participation in the community that is now formed because of what Christ has done.

01:10:09.863 --> 01:10:10.279
Okay.

01:10:10.703 --> 01:10:17.913
So there is a, I feel like that might give, I think that's another peg in the.

01:10:19.200 --> 01:10:25.475
Potential, like, the thought that it is for those who are confessing Christ, because,

01:10:26.490 --> 01:10:30.330
if you're not confessing Christ, you're not part of the body of Christ either.

01:10:31.426 --> 01:10:39.456
And so if you would sit outside of that, like, is that for you? I mean, it is in a sense of like,

01:10:39.842 --> 01:10:42.330
it is for you, because we want you to be part of it.

01:10:42.330 --> 01:10:46.490
To be the gateway into the body. It is the gateway for it, right? And I think what we're really,

01:10:46.490 --> 01:10:56.370
Maybe what we're really kind of running up against is like, is it the church's job to gatekeep?

01:10:56.569 --> 01:10:57.073
Yeah.

01:10:57.490 --> 01:11:01.490
And how much, and how even feasible is it? I was thinking about this.

01:11:01.490 --> 01:11:03.438
I was thinking about this earlier today,

01:11:03.807 --> 01:11:07.490
because there are churches out there, right, that have like, you know,

01:11:07.614 --> 01:11:09.490
well, in order to take communion, you must be baptized first,

01:11:09.490 --> 01:11:14.312
and then you also have to take this class, and you must do this, da, da, da, da, right?

01:11:14.490 --> 01:11:42.642
Right? And you've got to be in good standing membership, sign the membership book and sign in for your attendance at church. Like for some people, that might all sound very strange, but that is normal for some churches in practice. Like, and one of the reasons for doing all of that is what fencing or guarding the table, ensuring that believers are taking the communion. But the thing is, is even with doing all of that, you're not going to get.

01:11:44.370 --> 01:11:51.473
You are still going to have people who are not Christian, who do not know Christ.

01:11:51.660 --> 01:11:57.340
And so the question becomes, is like, are we practicing the exercise of trying to sort out

01:11:57.532 --> 01:12:02.780
the wheat and the tares, the wheat and the weeds, when perhaps maybe we should be a little bit more,

01:12:03.820 --> 01:12:07.740
generous where we put that line? I think that's where we're kind of coming to, is like,

01:12:07.740 --> 01:12:16.662
Like, you know, I wouldn't encourage someone who has no to little interest in Jesus to take communion.

01:12:17.500 --> 01:12:25.220
But someone who is like, figuring out faith, who's like, in there, like, because like,

01:12:25.220 --> 01:12:32.308
in all of this becomes so much cleaner if we have a moment of salvation theology, where

01:12:32.560 --> 01:12:38.393
we believe someone becomes saved at a certain time on the clock, on a certain date, when

01:12:38.680 --> 01:12:39.690
they pray a prayer.

01:12:40.400 --> 01:12:44.884
And I think while that is some people's experience, that is not everyone's experience.

01:12:45.360 --> 01:12:49.440
And I think some people are even more willing to say, well, that was a bit more of a process

01:12:49.440 --> 01:12:52.716
than even it maybe felt.

01:12:53.960 --> 01:12:58.440
But if that's the case, well, that becomes even harder to delineate when the line, when

01:12:58.440 --> 01:13:03.284
And someone has crossed the line of being in the book of life or not.

01:13:03.480 --> 01:13:13.880
And so how do you do that? I think that maybe even more clearly puts not so much the theological question, it's

01:13:13.880 --> 01:13:18.967
just the application of the theological questions of where do we draw that line.

01:13:22.586 --> 01:13:25.200
I don't know. Me neither. Neither.

01:13:25.200 --> 01:13:30.598
I hope you weren't listening to this podcast for answers. I don't know.

01:13:36.200 --> 01:13:37.511
I think from.

01:13:41.120 --> 01:13:49.800
I guess in a real candid way, I'm more interested as a pastor,

01:13:49.800 --> 01:13:54.490
I would be more interested in the.

01:13:57.109 --> 01:14:04.959
The extending of God's extending of the table. Yes, then the guarding of the table. I agree.

01:14:06.534 --> 01:14:20.947
I agree. I don't hate to disagree with the diddy. Okay, but I don't think that that passage about dogs is not about community is not about communion. I don't think that's well applied. And I don't think that the Corinthians 11 passage.

01:14:21.244 --> 01:14:31.959
It is talking about the condemnation of believers who are taking communion in such a way as to snub other people in the church

01:14:31.959 --> 01:14:33.959
or deny other people in the church communion.

01:14:34.046 --> 01:14:37.959
Yeah, the opportunity, like they literally eat up all the elements before the rest of them get there.

01:14:37.959 --> 01:14:41.959
They are in their own way fencing the table and being condemned for it.

01:14:42.192 --> 01:14:53.259
And so I don't necessarily see Paul particularly concerned with denying the table from those who are seeking Christ.

01:14:54.379 --> 01:15:01.520
As much as Paul is even maybe more angry at people who know Christ but are dishonoring Christ.

01:15:01.939 --> 01:15:03.744
Right. What about kids?

01:15:05.379 --> 01:15:07.894
Let the little ones come to me. Yeah.

01:15:09.779 --> 01:15:20.339
If we take that seriously, right? Yeah, I mean, I think so. What about from a theological standpoint?

01:15:21.280 --> 01:15:26.997
Well, then it becomes the arbitrary decider of the age of discernment,

01:15:27.639 --> 01:15:32.259
which nobody has a real answer for. No.

01:15:32.821 --> 01:15:40.266
And, you know, there's a there is a sense in which, well, and that would make, you know,

01:15:42.265 --> 01:15:50.411
You could say that oh, okay first communion you get it age, whatever I don't know what it is. You could say that it's a 10, but then you have,

01:15:53.571 --> 01:16:01.531
Grown adults who have Significant mental imitation limitations. Yeah saying well, they don't really understand it. So,

01:16:02.673 --> 01:16:10.431
Again, we must guard against it just because someone has greater mystery than us does not mean right that they can't participate, correct

01:16:10.431 --> 01:16:18.491
And similarly, and also I would say for children that they're in a way they are participating in their parents faith,

01:16:19.131 --> 01:16:20.344
which is like a,

01:16:21.155 --> 01:16:24.191
That's another theological. It's very pedo-baptist of you. Yeah, I know.

01:16:28.571 --> 01:16:34.531
I'm gonna let you take that that standpoint next week when we talk about baptism. Oh gosh. Yeah, I don't know

01:16:34.531 --> 01:16:39.251
I was thinking about that, but I was just like, I'm gonna regret saying this.

01:16:39.251 --> 01:16:44.491
But like, a kid is coming to church, not out of their own choice and not necessarily out

01:16:44.768 --> 01:16:46.685
of their own faith, they're coming out of their parents' faith.

01:16:46.931 --> 01:16:52.519
So like, their even participation in a gathering of the saints is out of the faith of their,

01:16:53.239 --> 01:16:56.606
parents as their parents train them up in the way in which they should go.

01:16:57.171 --> 01:17:02.091
And so I don't think that it is an ex, I don't think it's overextending that understanding

01:17:02.091 --> 01:17:07.211
to say that that is how children can participate in Christ through the communion table.

01:17:08.911 --> 01:17:09.691
Yep. I would agree.

01:17:12.683 --> 01:17:19.291
Well, we should probably end it there before we get open up more cans of worms. We can do that.

01:17:19.408 --> 01:17:35.051
But I hope that this conversation, like, I hope that we're modeling a way of doing theology that is healthy, but also is demonstrating maybe some vulnerability

01:17:35.051 --> 01:17:38.799
and some leaning into the mystery.

01:17:39.411 --> 01:17:45.171
I think it would have been easy for either you or I to like...

01:17:44.452 --> 01:17:50.782
Find a systematic theology or a theologian that we just like and just say that one just come and represent

01:17:51.222 --> 01:17:56.782
someone's someone else's stand and just what they've written down a hundred percent and and and just

01:17:57.073 --> 01:18:01.395
Trumpet that and then say here I stand thus far. It will not move. Yeah, like.

01:18:03.033 --> 01:18:09.982
But that's not that's not in the way in which we've we've chosen to to practice theology at this moment here

01:18:09.982 --> 01:18:17.342
And so it's a really disingenuous way I think to go about your faith. Yeah, I think it would I think it would soothe,

01:18:18.085 --> 01:18:23.682
some of the anxiety of us coming up to these questions and saying oh, this is really hard to answer because then we could just,

01:18:24.422 --> 01:18:29.902
quote someone And and so I am I'm not unsympathetic to that stance,

01:18:30.976 --> 01:18:32.516
but I do think that,

01:18:33.821 --> 01:18:47.000
You know, I think I hope that people listening understand that our Our genuineness in this is a desire to demonstrate good theology and biblical submission to Christ.

01:18:47.542 --> 01:19:00.582
And I mean that biblically. But it's also a desire to not just simply pull someone else's answers out and trumpet

01:19:00.648 --> 01:19:02.702
those as our own. All right.

01:19:04.262 --> 01:19:09.362
As always, if you have questions or things that you want us to tackle at some point,

01:19:09.822 --> 01:19:14.259
we have a mailbag that you can text 716-201-0507.

01:19:15.114 --> 01:19:18.302
I've finally, however many episodes this in. You memorized it?

01:19:18.302 --> 01:19:19.302
I've memorized it now.

01:19:21.102 --> 01:19:25.342
Can also answer the questions or ask questions in the comments if you're on YouTube.

01:19:25.342 --> 01:19:31.238
Leave us a rate and a comment on whatever format that you're watching it on,

01:19:32.489 --> 01:19:36.702
listening to it. Really helpful for us to get more exposure for it. And we will see

01:19:36.702 --> 01:19:39.654
See you next week when we talk about baptism.