1
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you

2
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you

3
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Yes.

4
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Yes, I think it's Candomblé.

5
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I think that's what it is.

6
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I think it's Candomblé.

7
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it's it's a four, it's like voodoo, but they speak African languages.

8
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Yeah, it's African language in Brazil, but it's, and they have African gods.

9
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It's a whole nother thing.

10
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It's based on the animal's soul.

11
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That's right.

12
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It's based on we're looking on Google.

13
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It's based on Ken Dobly, right?

14
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Yeah.

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So I was in I was in Bahia.

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This is my this is my experience with Ken Dobly because my my only experience was with it
was either Black Orpheus the movie or reading in my Lonely Planet guidebook.

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Right.

18
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Yeah.

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But I'm in Bahia and things you know it's kind of things that it's kind of shit that
happens in my life.

20
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I'm in Bahia.

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And uh I'm doing some tourist stuff.

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And this woman comes up to me and she's going, how would you like to go to a Candomblé?

23
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ceremony.

24
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So I knew from my guidebook, this is gonna be like wild.

25
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Yeah.

26
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I'm thinking, well, where is it gonna be?

27
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Because, you know, also from my guidebook, I knew in Bahia that there are neighborhoods
and favelas that you wouldn't want to go by yourself.

28
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That, you know, that I read the news reports.

29
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But she goes, oh you'll be okay.

30
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We'll get somebody to take care of you.

31
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rest is shared, problem.

32
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I had a hotel room, I'm going to leave my wallet back there anyhow, just in case.

33
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And yeah, they took me into the favela and there were no even police officers there.

34
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Nobody would actually go in there from the outside.

35
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it was like actually visiting another world.

36
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I've never, I've been to lot of crazy places, but I had never been, maybe it's like what
you were talking about in Nairobi, but this was like a crazy isolated place where

37
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Tourists would never go when the sun came down as I said, there were no even police
officers Police officers wouldn't go there and when we got out of the car they actually

38
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had a have Surround me with people just to make sure that I was gonna be okay.

39
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So I was thinking well, you know I'm gonna experience this and get home or not I had this
this way I wanted to see what it was.

40
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It was very interesting because when I went into the

41
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When I went into the room where they were having the ceremony, they had this like altar in
the middle and then the people were like going around in circles.

42
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And since I had some familiarity reading about it and seeing in the movies, I was kind of
expecting what was going to happen.

43
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And sure enough, you know, they were saying things in African and there was these African
animal spirits.

44
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And the next thing you know, the people are starting to go into convulsions.

45
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and the like possessed and I'm sitting on the outside and this was interesting.

46
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The couple things that were really interesting is that as I'm sitting there it was very
hot there so the ceremony was in room but people who were not in the room were looking in

47
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at the room from the outside but most of the interest actually I think was directed at me.

48
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eh

49
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Because they've seen this ceremony before, but most of them probably have never seen
anybody look like me.

50
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So it like somebody from outer space actually just got landed in their ceremony.

51
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So it was like they were looking at me as part of the show and everybody, know, all the
windows were filled with people like leaning in, just trying to get a look at me.

52
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And I'm dressed, I was dressed like I am now.

53
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I was dressed very well, white, very dressed nicely, turban, the whole thing.

54
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So everybody's like looking at me and saying, who is this guy?

55
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And then I'm trying to figure out what the ceremony was.

56
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It was really strange because people like smoking, I mean, the people who are leading it
were like smoking these big cigarettes.

57
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No, there wasn't marijuana.

58
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That was tobacco.

59
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Okay.

60
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I know the difference.

61
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Or I remember the...

62
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I lived through the six...

63
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So they these big tobacco things and they're puffing away and they're puffing away on
these big tobacco things, screaming out these African things for these animal spirits.

64
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The people is going into like convulsions and there's an altar in the middle.

65
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Now, this gets back to organized religion is that I've been around enough organized
religion to know one thing.

66
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If there is an altar in the middle of this room that they're going around, sooner

67
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or later they're going to put food on this altar.

68
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Because it's always like the sacred food.

69
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Always.

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It doesn't matter what religion is.

71
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So I'm just kind of waiting.

72
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I don't know the ceremony, but sooner or later there's going to be a plate of something on
that altar.

73
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And I'm getting nervous because I'm a vegetarian and I don't know what the hell is going
to be on this plate.

74
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know sooner or later there's going to be something on that.

75
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There's going to be food there and I don't know.

76
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And I'm sitting there and they don't speak English and I don't want to be killed out of...

77
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lack of respect.

78
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So I don't know what's coming forward.

79
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So sure enough, now it's at the point where it's getting very steamy and everybody's in
convulsions and there's all kinds of uh these primal shouts and sure enough out of the

80
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back door comes this big plate of steamy something.

81
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I don't have any idea what it was, but it was like, I have no idea what was, but it was
like very slimy and green and yellow and it's steamy.

82
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and they put it on the altar and I'm thinking, my God, you know, they're to be bringing
this around because this what they do in all the religious things.

83
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They'll bring it around to the congregation.

84
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That's what people do.

85
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So I'm kind of already thinking I'm looking for maybe there's a dog or something, you
know, there's some way that I'm already, I'm already losing interest in the, I'm losing

86
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interest in the ceremony.

87
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My intention is what's going to happen with this food.

88
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And so they bring this steamy something.

89
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Sure enough, I'm right.

90
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Because, you know, we go to Gidwara, it's like the Prashad, right?

91
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So in the Sikh ceremony, they have like, you know, at the end of service, they have this
uh tasty little like saag halva, you know.

92
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So this what they were doing.

93
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But I don't have any idea what was in this thing.

94
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And they're bringing it around and there were no dogs to feed.

95
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mean, basically I'm.

96
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Everybody's watching, everybody's watching me.

97
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And, you know, it's the kind of thing.

98
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This is like sacred food.

99
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Yeah, yeah, you can't

100
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I just said to myself, you know, I'm just going to, I'm just going to eat it.

101
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Yeah.

102
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I mean, it's like, I'm going to eat it and deal with it.

103
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I don't know what it is.

104
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I don't know if it's meat or fish or vegetable.

105
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I've never smelled anything like this.

106
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I've never seen anything like it was like, I have no idea what this is.

107
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So they give it to me and, um, and I eat it.

108
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I can't tell you guys.

109
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have no, I've never anything like it.

110
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doesn't didn't taste like anything.

111
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I actually still didn't know whether it was meat or fish or

112
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vegetables.

113
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It was just slimy.

114
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It was slimy.

115
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And I said to myself, you know, I'm not going to, I'm not going to get dramatic about
here.

116
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You know, eventually get back to the hotel and if I have to go to the hospital, deal with
it.

117
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You know, I'm sure they'll have something.

118
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They'll pump my stomach or, know, I'll, you know, I'll have a, I'll have a violent
reaction, but I'll survive it.

119
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Maybe I'll take a took of that, that piper.

120
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the pipe.

121
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you know, but no, I went to no, I stayed for the ceremony, went back and I didn't sleep
that night because I thought for sure I'd be making a trip to the hospital.

122
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But that never happened.

123
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And that was my little

124
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There's an interesting story.

125
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There's an interesting story.

126
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In terms of the convulsions, what was that like?

127
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And do feel that it was the collective energy in the room helped other people convulse?

128
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Did it help you also?

129
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He didn't convulse, okay.

130
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What about later?

131
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That would have been the food.

132
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had no...

133
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You know, it's funny because I had um no inclination to be convulsing.

134
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I wasn't part of that.

135
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But I found myself uh kind of getting in the spirit of it.

136
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And I felt like, you know, I try to show it respect.

137
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I try to vibe with it.

138
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But I didn't come close to convulsing.

139
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uh

140
00:08:57,723 --> 00:09:01,283
Yeah, very very interesting and I think I don't people were faking it.

141
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I people were definitely commulsing.

142
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Yeah

143
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yeah.

144
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Well, I, and that's probably the entire point of getting together too, is that convulsion.

145
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Because I think that that's where you start to let go of some of your inhibitions and you
start to resonate at the frequency that, uh, that you, you show up to resonate that like

146
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that you, come there specifically to get there and then you try to figure out how to get
there always, of course, sort of.

147
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the convulsions.

148
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This brings up a subject we're always talking about.

149
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But to me, did not um consider that necessarily congruent with my views of spirituality,
though.

150
00:09:40,907 --> 00:09:55,387
Whatever they were doing, I think, or just in a limited way, I thought that definitely
these people were communicating and experiencing kind of like a farther reaching reality

151
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than just like

152
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a to 5 job.

153
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They were kind of out of that paradigm eh and they were experiencing something but um from
my definition of what spirituality is that was actually fairly, and I'm not criticizing it

154
00:10:12,998 --> 00:10:22,541
because I don't know whether they were practicing it at its depth but just to me just
having that experience and having convulsions is not the purpose of life.

155
00:10:22,560 --> 00:10:23,853
Yeah.

156
00:10:26,370 --> 00:10:31,434
I mean, when I was younger, I think that would have been very intriguing, but I, I, that
didn't hold much interest for me at all.

157
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And I saw, again, it always comes back to the same thing.

158
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I was looking at the people involved, especially the people who are leading this.

159
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Right.

160
00:10:39,762 --> 00:10:53,192
And they did not actually come off as being any more evolved than anyone else I would meet
on the street, except the only big difference is they had convulsions and they were good

161
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at this, but

162
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Perhaps that was the sign of a spiritual evolution in that community is your ability to
convulse.

163
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Can you, you can't convulse?

164
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I'm sorry.

165
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One day, one day we'll get there.

166
00:11:05,718 --> 00:11:08,741
I think that was definitely the message there.

167
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That was definitely the message that your ability to convulse was somehow tied into your
level of uh consciousness.

168
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you

169
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And so I didn't really see that as that important to me.

170
00:11:25,929 --> 00:11:37,558
But I mean, it's valuable in that the people sort of have transcended just ordinary
reality, especially living in a place that's so harsh on a physical level.

171
00:11:37,558 --> 00:11:52,804
Yeah, You know, I often think about some of these cultures and their cultural practices
that are spiritual in nature and have evolved through sets of practices and people and

172
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institutions that have organically formed.

173
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what that set of practices that have been, let's say, codified into some form of religion,
you know, there's an essence there.

174
00:12:04,322 --> 00:12:09,987
It's either started out or had some aspiration to guide its people towards enlightenment.

175
00:12:09,987 --> 00:12:20,298
ah What is to become of those sets of practices and rituals as it evolves towards a higher
plane, towards...

176
00:12:20,450 --> 00:12:29,670
a new set of rituals and practices and how do people let go of the old and then take on
the new and what is that process that perhaps it comes about with like an inspirational

177
00:12:29,670 --> 00:12:32,733
leader from within or does it come from outside?

178
00:12:32,733 --> 00:12:34,645
What are your thoughts about that?

179
00:12:34,645 --> 00:12:39,150
How do we bring a new culture to old practices and rituals?

180
00:12:39,150 --> 00:12:40,893
You got a new interviewer here.

181
00:12:42,079 --> 00:12:43,320
What do you think?

182
00:12:48,919 --> 00:12:49,454
Shit!

183
00:12:49,454 --> 00:12:51,434
I didn't even know we were recording.

184
00:12:51,454 --> 00:12:52,814
Where am I?

185
00:12:55,114 --> 00:12:58,354
My name is Zaravar Dhaliwal.

186
00:12:58,354 --> 00:12:59,994
Zaravar Singh Dhaliwal.

187
00:13:00,594 --> 00:13:10,474
I guess he's buddies with Harinam and a fellow Sikh and follower of some sort of light
that will hopefully get us to consciousness.

188
00:13:11,654 --> 00:13:15,194
But yeah, guess Harinam, we've known each other for a couple of years now.

189
00:13:15,654 --> 00:13:17,914
Just through these mean streets of New York.

190
00:13:18,542 --> 00:13:18,875
Cool.

191
00:13:18,875 --> 00:13:21,134
Yeah, I'm excited to have you here.

192
00:13:21,134 --> 00:13:22,074
Thank you for having me.

193
00:13:22,074 --> 00:13:23,176
Thank you.

194
00:13:23,176 --> 00:13:23,937
This is great.

195
00:13:23,937 --> 00:13:25,986
All right.

196
00:13:25,986 --> 00:13:27,769
So incremental change.

197
00:13:27,769 --> 00:13:28,718
How does it occur?

198
00:13:28,718 --> 00:13:31,372
I mean, I think this is interesting that we're having this conversation today.

199
00:13:31,372 --> 00:13:36,435
I don't know if you guys were watching the conclave coverage earlier today.

200
00:13:39,682 --> 00:13:40,748
So funny.

201
00:13:41,226 --> 00:13:43,986
It's been why would anybody watch soap operas?

202
00:13:43,986 --> 00:13:45,716
I mean when you got like

203
00:13:45,716 --> 00:13:46,668
it up.

204
00:13:47,737 --> 00:13:51,598
And I haven't had bombons with me.

205
00:13:54,126 --> 00:14:02,546
I think that's an interesting point though, because I mean, so much of our frustration
with religion is how unadaptable it is.

206
00:14:02,546 --> 00:14:05,026
And it's like, why are we doing, why are we doing these things?

207
00:14:05,026 --> 00:14:06,046
They don't make sense.

208
00:14:06,046 --> 00:14:08,506
And some of it does make sense.

209
00:14:08,546 --> 00:14:13,446
some of it is supposed, maybe not supposed to be codified, but it just is.

210
00:14:13,446 --> 00:14:14,906
It's just how things are.

211
00:14:14,906 --> 00:14:23,990
mean, I think you look at any group of people and there's like a certain barrier to entry
and that's knowing the code, that's knowing the language and maybe that's.

212
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:29,535
why it's there so that you can spend, you have to spend some time with it in order to get
to know it.

213
00:14:30,057 --> 00:14:37,094
But, you know, it's everybody I think is also frustrated by that at the same time.

214
00:14:37,094 --> 00:14:42,626
They want things that are relevant to their current situation, things that are realistic.

215
00:14:42,626 --> 00:14:44,630
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

216
00:14:44,630 --> 00:14:47,782
Well, we talk a lot about religion, me and him.

217
00:14:47,782 --> 00:14:57,258
He's had, and Zorav has had a influence on my thinking, because he's very uh intelligent
and visionary.

218
00:14:57,258 --> 00:15:00,439
So he says stuff, I listen, I think about it.

219
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:10,005
And so there's things he said over the last couple of years that I've known him that have,
if nothing else, motivated me to think about things that I'm involved with.

220
00:15:10,185 --> 00:15:11,486
That's helpful.

221
00:15:12,056 --> 00:15:22,787
But yeah, like watching the Conclave because I'm always, it's all helpful because I can,
there's always something there that will give me pause to reflect on what I'm doing and

222
00:15:22,787 --> 00:15:24,334
whether I'm a zombie.

223
00:15:24,334 --> 00:15:24,750
Mm.

224
00:15:24,750 --> 00:15:25,150
Yeah.

225
00:15:25,150 --> 00:15:38,870
I mean, that was the funny thing about watching it was like, if you, you know, if you
didn't think of it as this, as, um, Christianity and you thought of it as something else,

226
00:15:38,870 --> 00:15:45,730
like something more sinister, maybe, or, know, just depending on your perspective, it's
very strange.

227
00:15:45,730 --> 00:15:53,804
Like it's all these guys wearing the same outfit and the number of buttons is symbolic and
it's number 33 and it's like,

228
00:15:53,804 --> 00:15:59,752
These things are scary to people.

229
00:15:59,752 --> 00:16:02,105
I learned that.

230
00:16:02,266 --> 00:16:03,348
That's when Jesus died.

231
00:16:03,348 --> 00:16:08,126
So it's an honor of oh that or an honor of Jesus' life, depending on how

232
00:16:08,126 --> 00:16:10,786
who dreamed this stuff up.

233
00:16:11,785 --> 00:16:15,366
Jesus didn't say when I die I want everybody with 33 buttons.

234
00:16:16,006 --> 00:16:18,306
Somebody cooked that up.

235
00:16:18,346 --> 00:16:22,305
Even the whole thing with the celibacy, mean, don't think he ever said anything about it.

236
00:16:22,305 --> 00:16:24,317
Well, that's, mean, and here you go.

237
00:16:24,317 --> 00:16:28,171
Like these are reformations upon something else.

238
00:16:28,171 --> 00:16:32,906
mean, all things that had to be decided over time and that have been implemented.

239
00:16:33,196 --> 00:16:33,772
Yeah.

240
00:16:33,772 --> 00:16:39,497
Well, I think the interesting thing about the conclave, mean, here is none of us are
Catholics here.

241
00:16:39,497 --> 00:16:41,329
We're all talking about Catholicism.

242
00:16:41,329 --> 00:16:42,535
Are you Catholic?

243
00:16:42,535 --> 00:16:49,760
No, I get yeah, I to Catholic high school right so and I won the theology award myself

244
00:16:58,158 --> 00:17:01,438
Old testament, new testament, I've got it all covered.

245
00:17:01,438 --> 00:17:14,898
One of the things that I think is difficult in the institutionalized religion is that it's
kind of been my observation and not always but very often the people running it the people

246
00:17:14,898 --> 00:17:27,057
in the top positions are not by any stretch of the imagination the most evolved people or
the most even the most inspired people they're often the people who are been determined to

247
00:17:27,057 --> 00:17:29,018
be the best team players

248
00:17:30,406 --> 00:17:35,479
that they're a team player, that this is the system and you're totally sold into the team.

249
00:17:35,479 --> 00:17:43,614
This is our team and you are totally sold into the rules of the team.

250
00:17:43,614 --> 00:17:45,354
so we can trust you.

251
00:17:45,875 --> 00:17:47,615
So these are the rules.

252
00:17:47,616 --> 00:17:52,658
You have agreed to those rules at a very high level of commitment.

253
00:17:52,798 --> 00:17:59,566
So we can entrust this to you because you're not going to undermine our game here.

254
00:17:59,566 --> 00:18:00,469
Hmm.

255
00:18:00,469 --> 00:18:04,344
you see, I mean, I think anybody would say that about their boss too.

256
00:18:05,227 --> 00:18:07,129
Or their president, yeah.

257
00:18:07,221 --> 00:18:19,953
And at the end of the day, a religion is like a government or a company, it's an
institution with a leadership structure and uh set of practices and procedures and goals.

258
00:18:19,953 --> 00:18:21,006
That makes sense.

259
00:18:21,006 --> 00:18:32,046
people who get into the leadership also often get in there very similarly how people get
to the top in corporations and the government as well.

260
00:18:32,046 --> 00:18:41,266
of the things that I was really interested in, I think it in New York Times, really
interesting thing they were talking about this conclave was that they were saying that,

261
00:18:41,266 --> 00:18:47,226
you know, there were many, I mean, there's, guess, hundreds of people who technically
could be appointed the Pope.

262
00:18:49,262 --> 00:19:03,708
Any carnal but it's it's kind of like funny is that unlike in politics Nobody actually
wants to admit That they want to be the Pope, but there's certainly people who do want to

263
00:19:03,708 --> 00:19:16,013
be that that would be absolutely Insane to suggest that that you know So in other words,
it's a lie to begin with because everybody is kind of just saying okay It's God's will and

264
00:19:16,013 --> 00:19:17,114
will accept it.

265
00:19:17,114 --> 00:19:17,504
Well

266
00:19:17,504 --> 00:19:21,154
know, there may be people like that, but there's definitely people who want to be the
Pope.

267
00:19:21,154 --> 00:19:24,611
Yeah, that's what I wonder about is like, what's it like behind the scenes?

268
00:19:24,611 --> 00:19:28,192
Like what house of cards style plotting is going on?

269
00:19:28,192 --> 00:19:35,561
I mean there's a lot of alliances and stuff like that, but I don't think anybody's
actually admitting, hey, elect me the pope.

270
00:19:36,526 --> 00:19:38,506
I mean that wouldn't be humble enough.

271
00:19:38,506 --> 00:19:40,206
Like to be the Pope you gotta be humble.

272
00:19:40,206 --> 00:19:40,846
That's right.

273
00:19:40,846 --> 00:19:43,326
Or like any religious leader for that matter.

274
00:19:43,486 --> 00:19:50,062
It's the virtue of that role is, this individual is realized, they're humble, they're
conscientious, they're giving.

275
00:19:50,062 --> 00:19:54,045
boy, would be sure refreshing to hear somebody just say, I'd like to be the Pope.

276
00:19:54,466 --> 00:19:57,218
To be honest, would be refreshing just straight up.

277
00:19:57,218 --> 00:19:59,270
Yeah, no, like, let's forget all this.

278
00:19:59,270 --> 00:20:00,456
I actually would like to be the Pope.

279
00:20:00,456 --> 00:20:02,772
Even if you don't want to make me the Pope, I'd like to be the Pope.

280
00:20:02,772 --> 00:20:04,854
At least that's an honest man there.

281
00:20:04,958 --> 00:20:11,138
What if you had to like campaign and then run to be a pope and then like you had like a
social media strategy and

282
00:20:11,138 --> 00:20:12,533
But I think they do campaign.

283
00:20:12,533 --> 00:20:14,314
think they campaign in their own way.

284
00:20:14,314 --> 00:20:15,702
Yeah, yeah.

285
00:20:16,174 --> 00:20:17,807
Sure, they probably do.

286
00:20:17,807 --> 00:20:21,594
mean, it's just like any other organization.

287
00:20:21,594 --> 00:20:22,828
So bizarre.

288
00:20:22,828 --> 00:20:23,990
Yeah, yeah.

289
00:20:23,990 --> 00:20:25,261
So bizarre.

290
00:20:25,402 --> 00:20:28,950
Yeah, we always get back to it, but it's a very interesting organization.

291
00:20:28,950 --> 00:20:29,772
Yeah.

292
00:20:31,677 --> 00:20:46,198
Do you, I don't know if this is a, I guess this whole thing is controversial, but do you
think that there may be a younger, slightly more outspoken and vocal pope that's put in

293
00:20:46,198 --> 00:20:46,818
place?

294
00:20:46,818 --> 00:20:52,544
I was wondering if now we're moving to...

295
00:20:52,544 --> 00:21:00,739
a day and age where the level of discussion, you know, it's traditionally been around
these, the presidents and heads of states at the highest levels.

296
00:21:00,780 --> 00:21:04,902
And then you have the UN and the G20 and G7, et cetera, et cetera.

297
00:21:05,203 --> 00:21:15,130
Do we foresee a time and place now where it's going to be the Pope and then the heads of
the Islamic Church and the head of the Sikh Church and the head of X, Y, and Z all coming

298
00:21:15,130 --> 00:21:18,412
together and saying, okay, well, look, this is what we think.

299
00:21:18,412 --> 00:21:21,250
And, you know, this is our stance.

300
00:21:21,250 --> 00:21:27,104
Because if we think about it, how do we amalgamate, let's say, people?

301
00:21:27,104 --> 00:21:30,417
Okay, well there's countries and then there's communities and then there's religion.

302
00:21:30,417 --> 00:21:35,481
And this is one of the highest levels of organization we have and actually one of the
deepest.

303
00:21:35,481 --> 00:21:37,052
What happens when you're born?

304
00:21:37,052 --> 00:21:38,243
You're baptized.

305
00:21:38,243 --> 00:21:41,986
You're brought into your faith from a very early age.

306
00:21:41,986 --> 00:21:48,076
It's actually like they've penetrated the ah human development right at its core.

307
00:21:48,076 --> 00:21:52,635
And I think it's because it's one of the oldest institutions, if not the oldest type of
institution.

308
00:21:52,635 --> 00:21:55,438
And so they say, okay, well, how do we, how do we get them early?

309
00:21:55,580 --> 00:21:58,124
And, uh, you know, not in a negative way, certainly.

310
00:21:58,124 --> 00:21:58,425
don't know.

311
00:21:58,425 --> 00:22:01,106
This is just like the way it is sort of way.

312
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:08,768
Yeah, I mean, it's for some people who have never tried to unwind their identity.

313
00:22:08,768 --> 00:22:12,532
It's just, I mean, it's just there with so many other things.

314
00:22:12,532 --> 00:22:19,229
I mean, I've, you know, I think people inherit their parents' political persuasion too,
the same way.

315
00:22:22,086 --> 00:22:33,191
I actually think there's evidence that there's kind of a revolution taking place, but it's
going to happen from underneath, not from up top.

316
00:22:33,371 --> 00:22:39,894
Because the people up top, think, are very bought into this.

317
00:22:39,894 --> 00:22:42,345
um They're in control of something.

318
00:22:42,345 --> 00:22:46,676
I don't think they get addicted to being in control.

319
00:22:46,676 --> 00:22:51,098
So their control of something really is dictated.

320
00:22:51,176 --> 00:23:00,694
in the continuity of this illusion that somehow what we're doing is better as special.

321
00:23:00,694 --> 00:23:06,339
uh So there's something that I can identify and I can be the head of it.

322
00:23:06,339 --> 00:23:18,809
And, and I think that it's almost like a gang and you know, I'm the head of the gang, but
if like all the gangs in New York decided that,

323
00:23:19,192 --> 00:23:23,115
You know, we're really at the end of the day, we're not individual gang members.

324
00:23:23,115 --> 00:23:24,646
We're all a member of the same gang.

325
00:23:24,646 --> 00:23:26,007
We're all brothers.

326
00:23:26,108 --> 00:23:30,170
Then all the people who are heading all the gangs would lose all their prestige.

327
00:23:30,891 --> 00:23:35,174
Because they're getting their prestige and division, not in unity.

328
00:23:35,295 --> 00:23:40,579
So I'm not actually looking for much leadership in this from the leadership.

329
00:23:40,579 --> 00:23:44,522
I just think that people are getting smarter.

330
00:23:45,828 --> 00:23:54,214
and I think what happened, I, it's in a way, I mean, I, I'm not happy with what happened
to the victims, but one of the good things that came out of this whole sex abuse scandal

331
00:23:54,214 --> 00:24:03,310
in the Catholic church is that it kind of busted this illusion that somehow the priests
were more involved than the people in the pews.

332
00:24:03,991 --> 00:24:07,693
It busted, in fact, you know, probably a lot less.

333
00:24:07,693 --> 00:24:15,338
So, and then even after it's over, they're still trying to convince the people that
somehow they have some special

334
00:24:15,566 --> 00:24:28,666
higher role but then their behavior is so off the charts that you people are just not that
stupid and they're going wait a minute wait a minute if they're so evolved if they're kind

335
00:24:28,666 --> 00:24:40,286
of the gatekeepers to the divine no no that kid that doesn't make any sense look what
they're doing no the whole thing and and so I think it's good that people just question

336
00:24:40,286 --> 00:24:40,942
these things

337
00:24:40,942 --> 00:24:42,103
Yeah, yeah.

338
00:24:42,323 --> 00:24:51,471
I often wonder if uh religion, especially, well, the smart ones that think about the
trends of where their followership is going, if they're concerned.

339
00:24:51,471 --> 00:25:02,971
Because I feel that, let's say if we take the United States or North America, let's just
say US and Canada for that matter, as the countries develop, if people move into cities, I

340
00:25:02,971 --> 00:25:05,222
think they have less and less time for religion.

341
00:25:05,686 --> 00:25:08,288
I personally think that people are moving away from religion.

342
00:25:08,288 --> 00:25:16,533
think it's going to be, um know, people will try to find other means to become connected
to spirituality.

343
00:25:16,533 --> 00:25:26,448
people now are, know, meditation is taking off in places like New York and obviously yoga
has really, ah we've talked about this right now, mean, yoga has really taken off over

344
00:25:26,448 --> 00:25:32,590
last five, 10 years and, you know, there are all sort of progressive steps towards, okay,
breathing.

345
00:25:32,590 --> 00:25:44,490
okay, understanding, okay, how I can activate deeper components of my mind, my
subconscious, my conscious, and start to align them and tune them to a frequency.

346
00:25:45,090 --> 00:25:48,490
And so people are realizing, oh, wait a minute, I can actually just do this on my own.

347
00:25:48,490 --> 00:25:51,230
Oh, wait, it actually feels good not to eat a hamburger.

348
00:25:51,910 --> 00:25:56,350
I feel better about myself or I have more energy.

349
00:25:56,350 --> 00:26:00,120
And I think people are starting to find that without the church.

350
00:26:00,120 --> 00:26:04,092
See, it's funny that he's here because we often have this conversation.

351
00:26:04,212 --> 00:26:04,892
It's funny.

352
00:26:04,892 --> 00:26:13,206
I have learned from him that I've been influenced and hopefully I've said some things that
maybe he's got to think about.

353
00:26:13,206 --> 00:26:16,307
Now, I actually, it's funny we're having this conversation.

354
00:26:16,307 --> 00:26:25,122
Now we're talking a lot about the institutionalized religion, but I myself am a minister.

355
00:26:25,389 --> 00:26:26,369
Right!

356
00:26:27,006 --> 00:26:30,557
And, and, I am now this is the, this is the paradox.

357
00:26:30,557 --> 00:26:38,634
See, I'm talking about all this stuff, but I myself am a minister and I am an unabashed
believer in religion.

358
00:26:38,815 --> 00:26:39,615
Okay.

359
00:26:39,615 --> 00:26:46,720
So it sounds paradoxical, but I actually think the problem is not religion.

360
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,062
The problem is that religion has been hijacked.

361
00:26:50,062 --> 00:26:50,762
Right.

362
00:26:50,762 --> 00:26:51,842
It's the organization.

363
00:26:51,842 --> 00:27:08,662
mean, I think that the three of us can safely say that we are believers in something and
we, there, you know, mean, the basic tenets of religion to do good to other people, do

364
00:27:08,662 --> 00:27:14,090
good to yourself and kind of realize that there's more to it than what you

365
00:27:14,090 --> 00:27:15,411
I think it's beyond that.

366
00:27:15,411 --> 00:27:16,652
think it's beyond that.

367
00:27:16,652 --> 00:27:19,453
Like take the Sikh faith.

368
00:27:19,674 --> 00:27:32,783
So, you know, we've talked about, there's many personages in the history of the Sikhs,
but, you know, we always talk about, uh I have a particular affinity for the 10th master

369
00:27:32,783 --> 00:27:35,995
in the Sikh lineage, is Guru Gobind Singh.

370
00:27:35,995 --> 00:27:43,820
And Guru Gobind Singh really kind of laid, I mean, of anybody, actually laid out the
institution.

371
00:27:43,820 --> 00:27:44,681
of what this is.

372
00:27:44,681 --> 00:27:47,714
He kind of laid out what it is to be a Sikh.

373
00:27:47,714 --> 00:27:55,802
He laid out what it looks like, what you do, how you look, how you dress, how you eat.

374
00:27:55,802 --> 00:28:00,507
mean, so it's actually a fairly clear recipe.

375
00:28:00,507 --> 00:28:04,120
It's not just about higher ideals.

376
00:28:04,120 --> 00:28:08,194
It's actually, he kind of actually put it into a

377
00:28:08,194 --> 00:28:09,565
to practice.

378
00:28:09,710 --> 00:28:12,412
It's a particular practice, a particular form.

379
00:28:12,412 --> 00:28:13,724
It's actually pretty clear.

380
00:28:13,724 --> 00:28:14,624
Okay.

381
00:28:14,624 --> 00:28:16,596
I don't think it's one of these philosophical things.

382
00:28:16,596 --> 00:28:20,179
He actually created a whole code of conduct around it.

383
00:28:20,179 --> 00:28:20,640
Okay.

384
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:23,126
So that to me is the religion.

385
00:28:23,126 --> 00:28:24,603
All right.

386
00:28:24,863 --> 00:28:37,260
And I actually believe this is very powerful and I do not believe that we're, we're at
least right now in humanity.

387
00:28:37,260 --> 00:28:43,190
that a person can replicate that experience just by their own personal spiritual practice.

388
00:28:43,190 --> 00:28:44,382
I don't believe that.

389
00:28:44,382 --> 00:28:46,646
I think that this is very, very powerful.

390
00:28:46,646 --> 00:28:51,468
need to come to a community and connect with other people and you also have to have a no.

391
00:28:51,468 --> 00:28:59,592
No, they actually have a uh clear roadmap of this is the technology.

392
00:28:59,592 --> 00:29:01,583
This is what it looks like.

393
00:29:01,583 --> 00:29:02,464
This is what I do.

394
00:29:02,464 --> 00:29:03,925
This what I get up in the morning.

395
00:29:03,925 --> 00:29:04,945
This is how I dress.

396
00:29:04,945 --> 00:29:06,366
This is how I eat.

397
00:29:06,366 --> 00:29:10,778
This is what the sacred scripture is.

398
00:29:10,778 --> 00:29:12,429
This is the name of God.

399
00:29:12,429 --> 00:29:14,440
I mean, it's all kind of laid out.

400
00:29:14,478 --> 00:29:19,130
So you don't need to go to quote unquote church.

401
00:29:19,130 --> 00:29:24,481
I mean, once you have the technology or the practice, can you do it on your own?

402
00:29:24,974 --> 00:29:30,654
I think, well, again, I'm talking about the Sikh faith, is that they have gurdwaras or
temples.

403
00:29:30,654 --> 00:29:42,534
And I think that the idea when they were first created was this was going to be a very
sacred, I'm sorry, that's God calling it.

404
00:29:42,654 --> 00:29:44,936
Unless it said something incorrect here.

405
00:29:44,936 --> 00:29:46,656
Send him to Voice Films, problem.

406
00:29:46,656 --> 00:29:49,326
You can always reach him.

407
00:29:50,835 --> 00:29:57,627
Yeah, I think that these formulas are very powerful.

408
00:29:57,627 --> 00:29:59,361
They're like code.

409
00:30:00,402 --> 00:30:02,082
I like code.

410
00:30:02,283 --> 00:30:07,126
so somebody's experienced something, not just the seek life.

411
00:30:07,126 --> 00:30:10,238
mean, I have respect for all the paths.

412
00:30:10,238 --> 00:30:12,309
Somebody's got a code.

413
00:30:12,990 --> 00:30:18,626
And if you kind of hooked into that code.

414
00:30:18,626 --> 00:30:20,828
then you're on that highway.

415
00:30:20,828 --> 00:30:22,639
And I think that's really what the religion is.

416
00:30:22,639 --> 00:30:31,837
Now, I think the problem is, that it's gotten, I think we're actually coming out of fairly
dark age of consciousness.

417
00:30:32,458 --> 00:30:46,400
And so I think what happened is that I think these religions were very inspired and
exalted, but they have been kind of exploited and manipulated and taken over.

418
00:30:47,458 --> 00:30:56,682
And what they are now is actually not at all what they were envisioned to be by the people
who created them.

419
00:30:56,742 --> 00:31:07,247
In fact, and I think we've talked about this in other talks, to me, there's only two
legitimate reasons for religion, okay?

420
00:31:07,527 --> 00:31:14,060
Other than, you know, day to day life, but in far as as a person, the two reasons for
religion...

421
00:31:14,350 --> 00:31:22,417
is to give you a code that you can be the best you can be as a functioning human being in
this society.

422
00:31:22,557 --> 00:31:28,762
And the second reason for religion is that in this lifetime that you can experience the
infinity.

423
00:31:29,083 --> 00:31:30,143
That's it.

424
00:31:30,244 --> 00:31:34,868
Those, no matter what path it is, that is the reason for religion.

425
00:31:34,868 --> 00:31:42,202
And I think that if you go back in the history, that is the reason for every religious
path.

426
00:31:42,202 --> 00:31:55,172
If it goes back to its inception, but very quickly that often the founder dies and without
within before the body's even cold, it's already starting to get screwed with.

427
00:31:55,353 --> 00:31:58,895
so people start using it for their own.

428
00:31:59,422 --> 00:32:08,943
I mean, I mean, even, you know, we had in the early sixties in the south of the United
States, you know, people who were like uh Southern Baptists and they, was, and you know,

429
00:32:08,943 --> 00:32:11,846
they had like segregated churches.

430
00:32:11,892 --> 00:32:25,250
And you know, people are getting this like half cooked idea that supposedly God prefers
like white skin people to dark skin people that, um you know, it's all this kind of crazy

431
00:32:25,250 --> 00:32:31,213
thinking and they actually use, they use the religion to justify their, their lower
behavior.

432
00:32:31,434 --> 00:32:33,155
It's not anything exalted.

433
00:32:33,155 --> 00:32:38,588
It's actually they're using religion to, to, to just justify anything they're doing.

434
00:32:39,138 --> 00:32:41,459
Yeah, I guess so.

435
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:50,575
I think maybe we need to clarify terms because when you're talking about a technology and
a code of conduct, maybe we'll call that organized religion because there's something

436
00:32:50,575 --> 00:32:51,725
organized around it.

437
00:32:51,725 --> 00:32:59,990
But I guess what I see as uh a major failure of religion is the bureaucratic organization.

438
00:33:00,570 --> 00:33:07,246
mean, it's sort of like religion has been franchised out and that uh there's a hierarchy
that sends out

439
00:33:07,246 --> 00:33:08,266
initiatives.

440
00:33:08,266 --> 00:33:09,966
it's just like a corporation.

441
00:33:10,086 --> 00:33:15,726
And anybody who's worked for a corporation knows how bureaucracy fucks things up.

442
00:33:15,726 --> 00:33:17,886
it's, mean, it does some things.

443
00:33:17,886 --> 00:33:23,966
It distributes money really well, but it doesn't necessarily distribute messages very
well.

444
00:33:23,966 --> 00:33:27,646
And it also leaves middle managers to their own devices.

445
00:33:27,826 --> 00:33:32,006
You know, a lot of money disappears, a lot of shit goes, goes wrong.

446
00:33:33,738 --> 00:33:48,944
In absence of religion, don't see where in our current societal systems where we're taught
a set of values or ah sort of this path to enlightenment.

447
00:33:48,944 --> 00:34:01,309
so religion, organized religion, appears to have a function in my mind or a purpose that
is not really met through other institutions that we currently have.

448
00:34:01,529 --> 00:34:03,394
Not to say that it couldn't be.

449
00:34:03,394 --> 00:34:07,817
but in our current institutional framework it's not.

450
00:34:08,418 --> 00:34:22,240
tend to think, you know, the set of, uh whether it's the Sikh faith or any other organized
or even disorganized religion, or organized, depends on how you want to look at it, um at

451
00:34:22,240 --> 00:34:30,137
some point, you you sort of take this set of practices and you like throw someone in the
direction of God.

452
00:34:30,137 --> 00:34:31,564
um

453
00:34:31,564 --> 00:34:46,064
And at some point though, gotta like land and then walk the rest of the way there yourself
because like religion can point you to the light and then even like pushed you along, you

454
00:34:46,064 --> 00:34:55,951
know, let's say doing bhajmani and dhipat, you know, every morning you wake up, you're
doing a repetitive prayer, same with Islam, you do five prayers a day.

455
00:34:55,951 --> 00:35:00,546
And now, you know, it's been shown to our subconscious and conscious mind prayers.

456
00:35:00,546 --> 00:35:02,247
very important.

457
00:35:02,287 --> 00:35:05,168
It essentially is a form of brainwashing ourselves.

458
00:35:05,509 --> 00:35:09,431
And if you know the message, you're imprinting that message day in and day out.

459
00:35:09,431 --> 00:35:20,926
And if the message is be good, give, work hard, then that then becomes imprinted on your
subconscious, then your conscious, and then your day-to-day actions, and then your life.

460
00:35:20,926 --> 00:35:24,660
It's sort of that whole, aah that sequence.

461
00:35:24,660 --> 00:35:25,781
And so that's important.

462
00:35:25,781 --> 00:35:28,582
then at some point you ...

463
00:35:29,186 --> 00:35:39,503
if you're just saying okay you know like I'm I'm of this religion I'm about this faith
that I know in my personal view you haven't reached it yet because you're still looking

464
00:35:39,503 --> 00:35:50,641
very narrowly to say okay wait this is this is what I am and who I am when you're this
then you're not something else and I think that what supersedes religion is then the

465
00:35:50,641 --> 00:35:58,686
species itself like understanding okay we're we're of a of a a mankind we're of a certain
type of organism that

466
00:35:59,086 --> 00:36:01,988
perhaps has an ability to attain consciousness.

467
00:36:01,988 --> 00:36:05,471
I don't know if that exists in other animals or not.

468
00:36:05,952 --> 00:36:08,324
And I guess what is consciousness too?

469
00:36:08,324 --> 00:36:11,436
It's so poetic.

470
00:36:11,436 --> 00:36:15,860
uh You read like Rumi Mandalev and you read some of these other...

471
00:36:15,860 --> 00:36:23,026
ah Even in Garbani, the poetry behind what the infinite is, it's so beautiful.

472
00:36:23,026 --> 00:36:26,028
It's almost unattainably beautiful.

473
00:36:26,028 --> 00:36:28,888
It's like, wow, how do I ever live that?

474
00:36:28,888 --> 00:36:34,231
But I wonder if it's like if we just work backwards and like it's just eternal bliss.

475
00:36:34,231 --> 00:36:37,143
It's kind of like walking around with a smile on your face always.

476
00:36:37,143 --> 00:36:41,335
And I think like, wow, that guy's pretty conscious probably because he's like, oh, he's
happy.

477
00:36:41,335 --> 00:36:44,197
And he's not hopped up on something to get there.

478
00:36:44,197 --> 00:36:44,787
You know what I mean?

479
00:36:44,787 --> 00:36:46,908
You're just like naturally happy.

480
00:36:46,908 --> 00:36:55,093
uh then you're just like, something we talked a little bit about today is like, okay,
you're happy now you want to make everyone else happy.

481
00:36:55,093 --> 00:36:57,952
Okay, that becomes like the next objective.

482
00:36:57,952 --> 00:37:02,903
And in your happiness, you learn how to channel a tremendous amount of energy.

483
00:37:02,983 --> 00:37:11,866
And you become a repository with like your practices, your breathing habits, your dietary
habits, which, in religion is codified.

484
00:37:11,866 --> 00:37:13,666
It's like, you don't do this.

485
00:37:13,666 --> 00:37:18,518
But like when you're living that lifestyle, it's like, it's not that you don't do this.

486
00:37:18,518 --> 00:37:21,108
It's that you prefer to do something else.

487
00:37:21,108 --> 00:37:27,234
It's like, I feel like sometimes the old carrot and stick like religion will give you this
stick.

488
00:37:27,234 --> 00:37:30,095
when it's actually all about the carrot, you just like, I want that.

489
00:37:30,095 --> 00:37:32,145
I want to be energized always.

490
00:37:32,145 --> 00:37:34,426
I want to be happy always.

491
00:37:34,426 --> 00:37:37,657
I want everyone around me to be happy and energized always.

492
00:37:37,657 --> 00:37:41,898
And then you just become like this deep, deep channel for energy.

493
00:37:41,998 --> 00:37:46,560
And then, and then I think you start to seek out people who require the energy the most.

494
00:37:46,560 --> 00:37:49,820
And you say, wait a minute, there, may be actually like a, like a pecking order here.

495
00:37:49,820 --> 00:37:54,122
There may be some sort of hierarchy that I can find or prescribed to.

496
00:37:54,122 --> 00:37:55,244
you say, okay, well this

497
00:37:55,244 --> 00:37:56,695
then becomes my life's work.

498
00:37:56,695 --> 00:38:04,159
Let me dedicate myself to this issue or something that's important that I feel like I can
move the needle on.

499
00:38:04,159 --> 00:38:12,304
uh But I mean, I say all of these things with defining what I think it means to be
conscious.

500
00:38:12,404 --> 00:38:15,846
But that could be any religion.

501
00:38:15,886 --> 00:38:19,788
You could have come from Judaism and Christianity or whatever it is.

502
00:38:19,788 --> 00:38:22,870
ah But I think what you can't do

503
00:38:22,958 --> 00:38:33,238
is come from those and only prescribed to that because I'm not sure if you, you know, I
don't know, I don't know if you like attain the higher levels if that's like, if that's

504
00:38:33,238 --> 00:38:38,498
the lens, it's like, okay, I'm like, I've only come from here, I only help these types of
people, I don't know.

505
00:38:38,604 --> 00:38:49,680
I think that's what you're saying is that there when you achieve that higher place that
feeling of infinity or universal oneness there is no lens and that's the point I mean it's

506
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,941
seeing everything as yourself it's seeing everything as one.

507
00:38:54,282 --> 00:38:55,771
Yeah.

508
00:38:56,044 --> 00:39:10,246
Well, you know, all the people who have said this in history are the, you know, it's funny
because there's a lot of people in the history of the world who owned like many hotels and

509
00:39:10,246 --> 00:39:11,507
cruise lines.

510
00:39:12,008 --> 00:39:18,453
People who were the presidents of countries of hundreds of millions of people.

511
00:39:18,633 --> 00:39:22,777
And for the most part, nobody remembers what their name is.

512
00:39:22,777 --> 00:39:24,458
It's like they never were here.

513
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:36,903
And then there are people like Buddha and Guru Nanak and Christ, they represent something
that actually lasts for thousands of years because it's not even their personage.

514
00:39:36,903 --> 00:39:38,557
It's like what they represented.

515
00:39:38,557 --> 00:39:42,559
So that's really what people are valuing is transcendence.

516
00:39:42,559 --> 00:39:43,820
They don't even know that.

517
00:39:43,820 --> 00:39:54,846
these, these are the, these are the people who have legacy and somehow

518
00:39:55,330 --> 00:39:56,271
You know, somehow it gets lost.

519
00:39:56,271 --> 00:39:57,160
You know, it's interesting.

520
00:39:57,160 --> 00:39:58,552
was in China.

521
00:39:58,552 --> 00:40:00,373
I know these Buddhist temples.

522
00:40:00,654 --> 00:40:03,816
They've got this like giant Buddha, like 50 feet tall.

523
00:40:03,896 --> 00:40:05,127
You know, like giant Buddha.

524
00:40:05,127 --> 00:40:14,284
And then they, right in front of the Buddha, they've got these like, these, uh these, like
mattresses, you know, like these foam mattresses.

525
00:40:14,284 --> 00:40:20,918
And then people get on their knees and prostate and they, do like, you know, prostrate.

526
00:40:20,918 --> 00:40:23,149
They prostrate, now they don't prostate.

527
00:40:24,622 --> 00:40:26,762
I prostate, they prostrate.

528
00:40:27,562 --> 00:40:32,582
They bow like 18 times, like to 33, you know, whatever.

529
00:40:32,582 --> 00:40:34,962
They have this whole thing down, right?

530
00:40:35,722 --> 00:40:37,542
And they always look like, bring gifts.

531
00:40:37,542 --> 00:40:40,962
And then I kind of ask, well, you know, what are you doing?

532
00:40:41,342 --> 00:40:49,262
And then, well, know, this, this, and then I'll have all this, you know, if I do this,
then Buddha will bring me prosperity and Buddha will bring me this.

533
00:40:49,442 --> 00:40:54,150
And then I'm thinking, oh my God, this thing's gone like way, way out.

534
00:40:54,478 --> 00:40:57,099
Because I actually have read the Buddhist teachings.

535
00:40:57,399 --> 00:41:06,302
I'm not a Buddhist by self-description, but I have read the Buddhist teachings and this
has nothing to do with the Buddhist teachings.

536
00:41:06,302 --> 00:41:21,206
Buddhist teachings have to do with how a person lives their life, conducts himself where
their mind is at to attain uh timeless infinity.

537
00:41:22,510 --> 00:41:24,070
It has nothing to do.

538
00:41:24,070 --> 00:41:24,890
There's nothing.

539
00:41:24,890 --> 00:41:26,630
I've read all the Buddhist teachings.

540
00:41:26,630 --> 00:41:37,130
There's nothing in the Buddhist teachings that have anything to indicate that, you know,
you should make a big, statue of me out of wood and bow down to this 17 times and pay your

541
00:41:37,130 --> 00:41:43,190
mortgage, you know, and make sure that, you know, you marry the pretty girl around the
block.

542
00:41:43,190 --> 00:41:45,390
What in the world?

543
00:41:45,690 --> 00:41:46,430
This is what I'm saying.

544
00:41:46,430 --> 00:41:52,510
There's like religion and there's religion, you So to me, the Buddha created clearly

545
00:41:52,782 --> 00:41:56,582
an identifiable way of life.

546
00:41:56,801 --> 00:42:06,842
this is the way that on this planet, if you follow this recipe, you will get transcendence
and you'll be everything you can be.

547
00:42:07,422 --> 00:42:18,442
Somehow this got hijacked into like a very weird variation of this that, you know, again,
if you just read the Buddhist teachings and you see what actually happens in the temple is

548
00:42:18,442 --> 00:42:19,962
very little to do with it.

549
00:42:19,962 --> 00:42:21,158
How did that happen?

550
00:42:21,346 --> 00:42:24,647
And I think that's true in almost all the faiths.

551
00:42:24,647 --> 00:42:41,372
so, you know, me and Zorava talk about this and I am, I may be very stubborn, but my
inclination at this point is instead of attack, well, I do, I attack the hypocrisy of

552
00:42:41,372 --> 00:42:50,294
modern institutionalized religion, but I feel it's important to fight for the real
religion.

553
00:42:50,668 --> 00:42:53,478
because I don't see an alternative.

554
00:42:53,478 --> 00:42:58,323
I go around the world and I teach yoga and meditation.

555
00:42:58,323 --> 00:43:07,603
A lot of these people who I teach, or in my class, I want to get into this like I'm above
and below, but I go teach these things and people show up.

556
00:43:07,603 --> 00:43:09,549
I get to observe things.

557
00:43:09,549 --> 00:43:11,990
Like Zoravar has mentioned, it's true.

558
00:43:11,990 --> 00:43:18,334
uh Especially among young people, there is a uh negativity towards religion.

559
00:43:19,168 --> 00:43:26,729
And so there is, but, people love to talk in terms of quote unquote spirituality and that
religion as if they're two separate.

560
00:43:26,729 --> 00:43:32,764
I see, I don't actually don't see them as being separate things, but people separate them
out as if they're two separate things.

561
00:43:32,764 --> 00:43:33,854
think religion is bad.

562
00:43:33,854 --> 00:43:35,045
Spirituality is good.

563
00:43:35,045 --> 00:43:37,766
And then, you know, I'm going to, I'm going to meditate.

564
00:43:37,766 --> 00:43:38,656
I'm to meditate.

565
00:43:38,656 --> 00:43:43,908
I'm going to do yoga and that's going to qualify me as a spiritual person.

566
00:43:43,908 --> 00:43:48,020
But a lot of people get mad at me because I'm just speaking honestly about

567
00:43:48,234 --> 00:43:55,959
My observation, I don't actually think that people doing yoga, just yoga and meditation
are particularly evolved.

568
00:43:56,580 --> 00:43:56,990
They don't.

569
00:43:56,990 --> 00:44:02,814
That's my, that's my, I mean, people hate me for saying it, but to me, they're lacking
something.

570
00:44:02,814 --> 00:44:05,406
And actually what they're lacking is religion.

571
00:44:05,466 --> 00:44:16,414
And when I say lacking religion, I'm not coming from the point of doing some stupid
rituals or, or, or stupid hierarchy that no, no, it's kind of like they

572
00:44:16,706 --> 00:44:19,919
They don't have focus in what they're doing.

573
00:44:19,919 --> 00:44:23,391
There's not like, like, like Sir, I was saying, it's like have like a certain thing.

574
00:44:23,391 --> 00:44:24,112
get up in the morning.

575
00:44:24,112 --> 00:44:25,063
I recite this.

576
00:44:25,063 --> 00:44:34,170
mean, the whole, it's like their life is not actually very, very like, like laser focused
in getting, getting through like this.

577
00:44:34,170 --> 00:44:35,602
It's too disperse.

578
00:44:35,602 --> 00:44:37,193
Like, okay, I'm to do yoga meditation.

579
00:44:37,193 --> 00:44:37,423
Okay.

580
00:44:37,423 --> 00:44:39,495
So, so you have a nice experience.

581
00:44:39,495 --> 00:44:40,485
So what?

582
00:44:41,146 --> 00:44:42,747
mean, so is that it?

583
00:44:42,928 --> 00:44:43,748
You know what?

584
00:44:43,748 --> 00:44:46,410
So we started the conversation talking about

585
00:44:46,946 --> 00:44:48,386
people doing the voodoo.

586
00:44:48,527 --> 00:44:55,450
And I would say what is different between people going to yoga class and meditating and
people doing voodoo?

587
00:44:55,450 --> 00:44:57,130
I would say there's no difference.

588
00:44:57,130 --> 00:45:01,042
Except, you know, and sometimes you see people in yoga do convulsions too.

589
00:45:01,042 --> 00:45:02,412
mean, that does happen.

590
00:45:02,412 --> 00:45:05,524
But, but I mean, it's the same kind of thing though.

591
00:45:05,524 --> 00:45:09,775
It's kind of like people are just kind of wanting some kind of experience.

592
00:45:09,775 --> 00:45:13,697
But um like, where's it going?

593
00:45:14,077 --> 00:45:16,318
I find the people who just do

594
00:45:16,384 --> 00:45:19,376
Yoga and meditation often are egomaniacs.

595
00:45:19,676 --> 00:45:25,370
They can't recognize that there's a higher ideal at work.

596
00:45:25,370 --> 00:45:27,641
In fact, it's very interesting.

597
00:45:28,242 --> 00:45:35,127
There's one very dirty word, the dirtiest word that you can actually say in a yoga class.

598
00:45:35,127 --> 00:45:39,850
Like if I'm teaching yoga and meditation, what do you is the dirtiest word?

599
00:45:40,834 --> 00:45:41,938
The gym.

600
00:45:43,086 --> 00:45:43,806
No, what do you think?

601
00:45:43,806 --> 00:45:44,346
I'm teaching.

602
00:45:44,346 --> 00:45:46,286
I'm teaching somewhere.

603
00:45:46,286 --> 00:45:48,546
I'm teaching a class.

604
00:45:48,546 --> 00:45:51,590
What is the dirtiest word I can say up there?

605
00:45:53,132 --> 00:45:54,115
relax.

606
00:45:54,115 --> 00:45:55,177
How about God?

607
00:45:55,177 --> 00:45:56,238
Okay?

608
00:45:56,379 --> 00:45:58,734
God's the dirtiest word I can say sometimes.

609
00:45:58,734 --> 00:46:02,472
I'll do it just to just to earth people Because they hate it.

610
00:46:02,472 --> 00:46:03,824
Yeah, so I do it.

611
00:46:03,824 --> 00:46:05,582
I just do it to yank that chain

612
00:46:05,582 --> 00:46:08,502
How do you invoke God in a yoga class?

613
00:46:08,502 --> 00:46:10,493
I just talk God.

614
00:46:10,493 --> 00:46:11,726
I'm a God guy.

615
00:46:13,550 --> 00:46:16,130
I'm in a really awkward position, so I'm a god guy.

616
00:46:16,130 --> 00:46:17,671
don't know about you.

617
00:46:17,671 --> 00:46:19,052
Yeah, that's pretty much it.

618
00:46:19,052 --> 00:46:20,203
That's pretty much it.

619
00:46:20,203 --> 00:46:20,923
a god.

620
00:46:20,923 --> 00:46:27,746
And I use God a lot in my classes and I just see I sit up there and watch the people.

621
00:46:27,746 --> 00:46:32,501
That's actually a funny Rorschach test because it's like, what are you talking about?

622
00:46:32,546 --> 00:46:39,150
Yeah, I'll do, I'll be up there and I'm teaching class and I'll just freely use the word
God as my teacher did.

623
00:46:39,931 --> 00:46:50,377
And uh it's very helpful to me because all I have to do is talk about God during the class
and uh I can actually see where people are at just by how they're reacting.

624
00:46:50,377 --> 00:46:52,978
I can see if that makes them angry.

625
00:46:52,978 --> 00:46:56,681
I could see if that that's exactly what they want to hear.

626
00:46:56,681 --> 00:46:59,502
I could see that it kind of

627
00:46:59,672 --> 00:47:01,163
kind of irks their ego.

628
00:47:01,163 --> 00:47:05,146
can see that there is sense of love and trust.

629
00:47:05,146 --> 00:47:12,952
mean, it's very interesting that word, that word I can see, I can see whether they've had
issues with this from their childhood about organized religion.

630
00:47:12,952 --> 00:47:14,432
People really kind of show themselves.

631
00:47:14,432 --> 00:47:17,755
That's a very powerful word to use.

632
00:47:17,755 --> 00:47:19,936
means different things to different people.

633
00:47:20,157 --> 00:47:28,150
But the most important thing is, that if I'm going to be teaching spirituality, okay.

634
00:47:28,150 --> 00:47:30,124
I'm actually going to use that word.

635
00:47:31,160 --> 00:47:32,870
It's interesting, uh...

636
00:47:33,651 --> 00:47:37,693
what affects that word God and organized religion have on people's psyche.

637
00:47:37,693 --> 00:47:44,667
there's many people who have gone to religious schools in their high schools and
elementary schools.

638
00:47:44,667 --> 00:47:57,404
in organized religion sometimes there's the use of oh fear, negativity to help drive
behavior.

639
00:47:57,404 --> 00:47:59,885
So, okay, well do this, otherwise you're going to go here.

640
00:47:59,885 --> 00:48:02,124
uh

641
00:48:02,124 --> 00:48:09,538
And I feel sometimes that people um are trying to move away from that aspect of the
religion.

642
00:48:10,019 --> 00:48:19,624
When you have a large number of people you're trying to control, you have to sometimes use
fear as a tactic of control or as a tool of control.

643
00:48:19,825 --> 00:48:27,890
And I think that a lot of people have a lot of scar tissue around the fear that has been
created.

644
00:48:27,890 --> 00:48:28,647
oh

645
00:48:28,647 --> 00:48:30,285
intelligent person.

646
00:48:30,602 --> 00:48:40,447
You know, they have this car tissue, whether they recognize it or not, where it comes from
or not, whether they sort of realize that they're having a visceral reaction when the word

647
00:48:40,447 --> 00:48:45,240
God, which also means something else that is tied to the religion.

648
00:48:45,240 --> 00:48:48,891
This is why I think it's so helpful to bring that word out.

649
00:48:49,430 --> 00:48:57,834
if to me, what people really need to do is they have to confront their own issues.

650
00:48:58,694 --> 00:49:04,036
So these are issues that have to be dealt with one way or the other.

651
00:49:04,036 --> 00:49:11,658
So I would agree that I had that same experience when I was younger, that the people who
use that word.

652
00:49:12,460 --> 00:49:16,131
The things that are represented to me were mostly negative.

653
00:49:16,271 --> 00:49:16,601
Okay.

654
00:49:16,601 --> 00:49:17,991
Like most people.

655
00:49:18,172 --> 00:49:26,374
So, but when I got later in life, I realized is that it's not about even the word itself.

656
00:49:26,414 --> 00:49:28,514
It's about where people are coming from.

657
00:49:28,514 --> 00:49:38,837
So in other words, the word itself, God aside, what's most important to me is that I have
a connection with something that's bigger than myself.

658
00:49:38,837 --> 00:49:40,278
All right.

659
00:49:40,278 --> 00:49:41,534
And I.

660
00:49:41,534 --> 00:49:51,457
am not willing to disown that because of other people's treating that disrespectfully or
with lower consciousness.

661
00:49:51,457 --> 00:49:53,797
It's just how I'm dealing with it.

662
00:49:54,098 --> 00:50:10,434
again, I decided that it's better to, I'd rather be leading like a revolution fighting for
ownership of that because I feel that what these, and it's not just God, mean, because

663
00:50:10,434 --> 00:50:12,755
You're saying God because we're from the West.

664
00:50:13,296 --> 00:50:23,281
you know, that's kind like a German, you know, it's like a German word actually, you know,
and as Yogi Bhajan would say, you know, is like generating, organizing and destroying.

665
00:50:23,281 --> 00:50:24,241
That's what God is.

666
00:50:24,241 --> 00:50:31,135
God is actually that generates, organizes and destroys all at the same time.

667
00:50:31,135 --> 00:50:32,245
Okay.

668
00:50:32,802 --> 00:50:34,421
religion or people?

669
00:50:34,912 --> 00:50:48,736
Everything okay God God is that force that generates like it gives birth Organizes and and
and destroys all the same time, okay But but I'm sure that other people in other cultures

670
00:50:48,736 --> 00:51:00,969
have the same issues with people using ROM or anything I mean from their childhood I mean,
but it's it's actually that the the forces that we talked about have kind of co-opted this

671
00:51:01,469 --> 00:51:04,270
and what to do about that because

672
00:51:05,698 --> 00:51:17,663
To me, think that the revolution ahead is going to be people wanting to gain control back
up because this is priceless.

673
00:51:17,663 --> 00:51:18,944
You can't disown it.

674
00:51:18,944 --> 00:51:23,366
I mean, you can't disown your connection to what created you.

675
00:51:23,366 --> 00:51:28,387
And so right now there are certain forces in society that own the words.

676
00:51:29,448 --> 00:51:30,809
That's actually what they've done.

677
00:51:30,809 --> 00:51:33,838
They kind of like own control of the words.

678
00:51:33,838 --> 00:51:36,730
You know, it's like, I get that we all, we're all into politics.

679
00:51:36,730 --> 00:51:38,311
So, you know, I'll give you an example.

680
00:51:38,311 --> 00:51:40,442
I was very curious.

681
00:51:41,143 --> 00:51:43,465
What the Republicans did started doing about 15.

682
00:51:43,465 --> 00:51:53,351
It was very, very, very well thought out plan that they decided that they're going to
control the term family values.

683
00:51:53,772 --> 00:51:55,953
It's not like they had any, it's ridiculous.

684
00:51:55,953 --> 00:52:03,650
I mean, it's all kind of, everybody's in a family, but they actually somehow got control
of that word.

685
00:52:03,650 --> 00:52:07,432
that if you weren't a Republican that you'd actually, it's a very good example.

686
00:52:07,432 --> 00:52:16,115
If you were a Democrat you'd consider family values to be a dirty word because it was
synonymous with something very unpleasant.

687
00:52:16,115 --> 00:52:19,997
But that doesn't mean that you don't have family values if you're Democratic home.

688
00:52:19,997 --> 00:52:22,298
You you love your family.

689
00:52:22,298 --> 00:52:23,938
Family is very important to you.

690
00:52:23,938 --> 00:52:33,134
But now there's a group of people that have basically co-opted that term which is a very
nice term but now they have ownership of it and they can manipulate it.

691
00:52:33,134 --> 00:52:38,887
um And I think that's exactly what a lot of the institutions have done with words like
God.

692
00:52:38,887 --> 00:52:40,388
It's not the word itself.

693
00:52:40,388 --> 00:52:50,123
It's like they're the ones that have kind of taken ownership of something that's actually
a very beautiful thing and you just kind of use it for their own ends.

694
00:52:50,123 --> 00:53:01,619
And so I can take the stance, you know what, I'm going to disassociate from that and I'm
just going to have some kind of loose spiritual personal practice of my own that I'm going

695
00:53:01,619 --> 00:53:03,210
to say, screw that.

696
00:53:03,374 --> 00:53:14,734
Okay, okay, screw that I'm not gonna let them I'm not gonna let them steal this is I mean
whose idea was this that there's some guy up there with like a cane and a White beard who

697
00:53:14,734 --> 00:53:15,614
concocted that up.

698
00:53:15,614 --> 00:53:17,094
That's like crazy thinking.

699
00:53:17,094 --> 00:53:18,774
There's no I mean, that's not God.

700
00:53:18,774 --> 00:53:19,894
Why would he crazy?

701
00:53:19,894 --> 00:53:24,078
Did they actually and the people are like buying into this what are you out of your mind?

702
00:53:24,078 --> 00:53:30,644
mean, how much of scripture though do you think was deliberately written as a parable or
as a myth?

703
00:53:30,644 --> 00:53:37,349
Like it's hyperbolic that they had to personify God in order to tell a story.

704
00:53:37,582 --> 00:53:40,202
I believe in those stories.

705
00:53:40,202 --> 00:53:43,362
believe in, you know, it's interesting.

706
00:53:43,362 --> 00:53:46,602
I believe in the parables and stories.

707
00:53:46,602 --> 00:53:52,942
think they're very like, like for instance, like my favorite story in the Bible, again,
I'm not a Christian, but I read all this stuff.

708
00:53:52,942 --> 00:53:56,222
To me, like the best story in the whole Bible is the story of Lot.

709
00:53:56,222 --> 00:53:57,642
I think that's story.

710
00:53:57,642 --> 00:53:58,702
Good, good story.

711
00:53:58,702 --> 00:54:00,522
turning the salt thing.

712
00:54:01,402 --> 00:54:01,802
That's great.

713
00:54:01,802 --> 00:54:03,522
I mean, that's a great parable about life.

714
00:54:03,522 --> 00:54:05,802
You know, basically you can't look back.

715
00:54:05,802 --> 00:54:06,654
I mean, it's,

716
00:54:06,654 --> 00:54:10,878
there was something, God, that's such a sad story too.

717
00:54:12,034 --> 00:54:14,842
I remember being really affected by that.

718
00:54:15,883 --> 00:54:17,605
Yeah, pillar of salt.

719
00:54:17,605 --> 00:54:25,692
there's it's like sentimentally selfish about it too, like for her reasons for wanting to
look back.

720
00:54:25,733 --> 00:54:27,054
And then she gets.

721
00:54:27,246 --> 00:54:39,686
But I think that's a great parable about spiritual development is that it's I think it is
the toughest thing for a person to deal with and it's also like a paradox is that you know

722
00:54:39,686 --> 00:54:50,026
have to accept yourself for who you are which includes everything you are and have been
it's just a matter of self-acceptance but if you're going for the liberation game you have

723
00:54:50,026 --> 00:54:51,606
to die to yesterday.

724
00:54:51,608 --> 00:54:52,749
That's what that story is about.

725
00:54:52,749 --> 00:54:57,822
have to actually, you have to die yesterday because that has nothing to do with where
you're going.

726
00:54:57,822 --> 00:55:05,686
It can give you some understanding where you're at, but basically the spiritual path is
going forward and you have to walk away from that.

727
00:55:05,846 --> 00:55:08,228
So I think that's a great parable.

728
00:55:08,228 --> 00:55:19,660
But how much I love parables and stories, I think it is a big mistake to make stories and
parables about that force that creates the universe.

729
00:55:19,660 --> 00:55:22,972
because you really don't have a story for that.

730
00:55:23,293 --> 00:55:24,364
See, that's what it is.

731
00:55:24,364 --> 00:55:26,285
It's something that there is no story about.

732
00:55:26,285 --> 00:55:29,638
There's a story about everything else, but there's no story about that.

733
00:55:29,638 --> 00:55:40,847
And I think that that in the attempt to like make that guy into like the big hand with the
pointy finger and the gray beard and the cane, this is a big mistake because that's like

734
00:55:40,847 --> 00:55:44,590
making God into like a human being.

735
00:55:45,271 --> 00:55:49,494
And I think that I understand where that's coming from.

736
00:55:49,602 --> 00:55:52,663
But you're limiting this.

737
00:55:52,663 --> 00:55:54,964
It's beyond your comprehension.

738
00:55:54,964 --> 00:55:57,285
So once, to me this is ego.

739
00:55:57,285 --> 00:56:11,111
If you're starting to actually describe what God looks like and then you put it in a form
that's validating that you are the highest thing there is, that's the human ego.

740
00:56:11,111 --> 00:56:18,444
think that none of the great teachers taught this and I would challenge even Christians
who've done this.

741
00:56:18,598 --> 00:56:22,681
I don't have any problem with Christianity taught by Christ.

742
00:56:22,681 --> 00:56:24,172
I've read the Bible many times.

743
00:56:24,172 --> 00:56:31,325
There's nothing that I've ever written, there's nothing that I have ever read.

744
00:56:32,326 --> 00:56:40,591
Nothing that I've ever read in the Bible that would indicate that God's like this guy with
a cane and a gray beard and has a pointy finger looking...

745
00:56:40,591 --> 00:56:41,912
Where did that come from?

746
00:56:41,912 --> 00:56:43,753
And so now people kind of get...

747
00:56:43,753 --> 00:56:45,414
ah

748
00:56:45,866 --> 00:56:54,182
involved with this and yeah that's great but there is nothing even in your holy book to
say that where is that coming?

749
00:56:54,488 --> 00:56:58,298
I think you hit it on the head when you said the word interpretation.

750
00:56:58,298 --> 00:57:14,365
and so much of this is how we internalize such abstract concepts of spirituality and so we
use parables or sohqis as we call them or like the character Osho used to use, Nullah

751
00:57:14,365 --> 00:57:26,851
Masruddin, Nasruddin I think and we use these to contextualize a lesson and then pass it
forward so it's sort of early form of codification and a lot of the imagery around God

752
00:57:26,851 --> 00:57:28,612
being perhaps a

753
00:57:28,873 --> 00:57:33,389
with long hair or on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel.

754
00:57:33,389 --> 00:57:44,174
Now this is how people identified with their image of God back then when those images were
created and now they just happen to have

755
00:57:44,642 --> 00:57:53,845
been very pervasive in our society and lived until this point where we sort of think God
and sometimes some people think of that image where it was a tool that was used at a point

756
00:57:53,845 --> 00:57:58,486
in time for people to digest such abstract concepts.

757
00:57:58,486 --> 00:58:06,648
I think our ability to digest these concepts has broadened over time where we don't need
to use such narrow messaging.

758
00:58:06,648 --> 00:58:12,510
I think our messaging has become more abstract to, you know, to sort of

759
00:58:12,952 --> 00:58:20,270
to continue to teach lessons i think but at the same time i'd be so specific and narrow to
speak to one particular audience

760
00:58:20,270 --> 00:58:33,010
Well, one of things I really was touched with when I was exposed to the teachings of the
Sikh Gurus is that there was never any attempt, and I still have not seen any attempt to

761
00:58:33,010 --> 00:58:36,290
try to characterize.

762
00:58:36,290 --> 00:58:38,310
In fact, it's to the contrary.

763
00:58:38,590 --> 00:58:47,390
It's clear that the teachings of the Guru is that you actually can't do that, that it's
beyond your...

764
00:58:47,394 --> 00:58:49,655
It's beyond your human capacity to do that.

765
00:58:49,655 --> 00:58:52,615
All you can do is experience it.

766
00:58:52,636 --> 00:58:53,956
You can't describe it.

767
00:58:53,956 --> 00:58:55,916
You can't articulate it.

768
00:58:55,937 --> 00:58:58,497
But in this lifetime, you can experience it.

769
00:58:58,497 --> 00:59:00,518
And this is just how you do it.

770
00:59:00,518 --> 00:59:01,898
You do it this way.

771
00:59:01,898 --> 00:59:03,458
And this is the recipe.

772
00:59:03,458 --> 00:59:07,680
And if you do this and you're sincere about it, you'll experience it.

773
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:14,804
But I'm not even going to waste my time trying to describe to you what that experience is
because there's never been a word.

774
00:59:14,804 --> 00:59:16,935
actually that can give you the experience.

775
00:59:16,935 --> 00:59:22,038
There's only mantras or words that can lead you.

776
00:59:22,038 --> 00:59:28,522
It's like a doorway to that experience, but it's not like a description of what it looks
like because it doesn't look like anything.

777
00:59:28,598 --> 00:59:42,414
Yeah, one of the benefits I think the Sikh faith has is that it's relatively new as far as
religions go and so it's the message from the root, let's call Nanak, Guru Nanak Dev Ji

778
00:59:42,414 --> 00:59:46,806
being the root of the message, has let's say...

779
00:59:47,694 --> 00:59:53,354
not moved as far away from the authentic message as perhaps an older religion.

780
00:59:53,354 --> 01:00:04,914
Because the longer the further back the mystic came about, then the religion itself has
been adapted through human touch that much more.

781
01:00:04,994 --> 01:00:16,534
And so I think, you know, sort of thinking about when it was the 1400s when, you know,
that sort of there about, let's call it 550 years ago now when Gujranath Devji was around.

782
01:00:17,420 --> 01:00:24,008
you know that that is much less than the ticket two thousand years or let's say aslam was
seven seven hundreds

783
01:00:24,008 --> 01:00:27,406
Although people are still trying very hard to put their own spin.

784
01:00:27,406 --> 01:00:37,214
I know but that's the thing that happens when it's because it's the religion moves from
from the message the mystic has into an institution into power structures and then into

785
01:00:37,214 --> 01:00:47,978
control and so okay why you know how how many people can you control okay what's what sort
of the the imagery the messaging what can I conjure up to to command that control

786
01:00:47,978 --> 01:01:00,386
So, know one of the things that's really like for instance striking in in the sea culture
I say now I'm saying the culture Is that the teachings the original teachings were very

787
01:01:00,386 --> 01:01:01,867
revolutionary even?

788
01:01:01,867 --> 01:01:04,349
Socially so this was hundreds of years ago.

789
01:01:04,349 --> 01:01:12,834
So two of the two of the big things That the the tenants basic tenants of this particular
faith

790
01:01:13,128 --> 01:01:15,559
is one is, and it's right there.

791
01:01:15,559 --> 01:01:22,451
Nobody could contest that it's like right not there is that the gurus taught the equality
of men and women.

792
01:01:22,451 --> 01:01:23,741
Okay.

793
01:01:23,741 --> 01:01:24,961
The equality of sexism.

794
01:01:24,961 --> 01:01:26,982
And this was hundreds of years ago.

795
01:01:27,362 --> 01:01:28,893
Hundreds of 500 years ago.

796
01:01:28,893 --> 01:01:29,633
Okay.

797
01:01:29,633 --> 01:01:32,711
You can imagine that was like absolutely revolutionary.

798
01:01:32,711 --> 01:01:35,634
It's still revolutionary, but it was 500 years ago.

799
01:01:35,634 --> 01:01:41,386
It was, this was in a society where women were treated like cattle actually.

800
01:01:41,482 --> 01:01:45,716
And now this saint is coming and said, well, your cattle is equal to you.

801
01:01:45,716 --> 01:01:46,977
Okay.

802
01:01:46,977 --> 01:01:48,548
That's, that's a big one.

803
01:01:48,548 --> 01:01:49,508
Okay.

804
01:01:50,009 --> 01:01:52,271
No, that's, that's, that's actually true.

805
01:01:52,271 --> 01:01:55,294
That's how women were treated as cattle.

806
01:01:55,294 --> 01:01:57,835
They were, they were just possessions.

807
01:01:57,996 --> 01:01:59,057
Okay.

808
01:01:59,157 --> 01:02:04,942
And, and, and, and, you know, valued possessions, but it was like a form of slavery.

809
01:02:04,942 --> 01:02:09,706
And so now this same comes along and says, actually,

810
01:02:09,708 --> 01:02:22,569
that not only did Guru Nanak teach the equality of men and women, but he actually, in my
own mind, actually kind of inferred the superiority of women.

811
01:02:23,130 --> 01:02:32,117
That women were bringing certain qualities to the table that actually men were in need of.

812
01:02:32,578 --> 01:02:35,980
That it would be very difficult for men

813
01:03:04,194 --> 01:03:08,456
that it was a creation to actually suppress people in the name of religion.

814
01:03:08,456 --> 01:03:10,737
This is very revolutionary thinking.

815
01:03:10,737 --> 01:03:23,262
And yet, if you actually talk to people who call, many people who call themselves
religious Sikhs, you go into Sikh temples, to me the women are not treated equally.

816
01:03:23,422 --> 01:03:29,435
You go even to the holiest Sikh places in India and the women can't even sing there.

817
01:03:29,435 --> 01:03:32,936
They can't even, I mean they're not treated equally.

818
01:03:32,936 --> 01:03:36,909
even as they're reading from the scripture, I mean it's crazy stuff.

819
01:03:36,909 --> 01:03:48,606
Even as they're reading from the scripture that clearly states the equality of men and
women and clearly states the abhorrence of the chaos system, the people living in this

820
01:03:48,606 --> 01:03:57,121
community still at least subtly practice the chaos system and do not treat women equally.

821
01:03:57,301 --> 01:03:58,912
It's crazy stuff.

822
01:03:59,328 --> 01:04:00,979
It really, it's crazy stuff.

823
01:04:00,979 --> 01:04:09,822
So, and again, so it gets back to what I saying before is that I actually do believe in
the message and I'm willing to fight for it.

824
01:04:10,002 --> 01:04:25,549
And if I have a problem with religion, it's the fact that people have hijacked something
that's very high ideals and they're manipulating it to justify their not so enlightened

825
01:04:25,549 --> 01:04:26,119
way of living.

826
01:04:26,119 --> 01:04:28,670
in the end,

827
01:04:29,248 --> 01:04:34,161
It's worth fighting for because to me it's man's greatest hope.

828
01:04:34,202 --> 01:04:39,305
Because it really holds the code and it holds the technology.

829
01:04:39,305 --> 01:04:44,649
And just to simply just say, you know, it's just not, it's obsolete.

830
01:04:44,649 --> 01:04:46,240
I actually don't agree.

831
01:04:48,576 --> 01:04:59,055
On our way over here we were talking about uh the process by which to attain enlightenment
but to start moving in that direction.

832
01:04:59,055 --> 01:05:04,086
We were talking about how so much of that journey is about habit change.

833
01:05:04,086 --> 01:05:09,023
It's course a change in frame of thinking but also a change in day-to-day living.

834
01:05:09,023 --> 01:05:12,946
Day-to-day living is largely a compilation of your habits.

835
01:05:13,186 --> 01:05:16,268
One's ability to change

836
01:05:17,954 --> 01:05:23,689
his or her habit I think also dictates one's ability to move in the direction of
enlightenment.

837
01:05:24,778 --> 01:05:30,620
so fixed on who you are as an individual, okay, well, is, you know, every day I do this,
this, and this.

838
01:05:30,761 --> 01:05:34,753
And you're not willing to change that or open to different perspectives.

839
01:05:34,753 --> 01:05:45,107
think you'll have a very challenging time in moving towards enlightenment because I think
so much of that is shedding of your personality or as they call it, your ego.

840
01:05:45,107 --> 01:05:52,051
uh slowly you chip away at it, chip, chip, chip, and you lose another habit, another
belief, another habit.

841
01:05:52,051 --> 01:05:55,092
then soon you're sort of walking around with

842
01:05:55,212 --> 01:05:58,924
with a much lighter weight ah than before.

843
01:05:58,924 --> 01:06:12,802
I think that's what has drawn me to Harinam so much is that his work is not just about
going around and prophesying and saying, this is what the scriptures say.

844
01:06:12,972 --> 01:06:19,466
I think he takes the essence of the scriptures and helps individuals.

845
01:06:19,522 --> 01:06:23,665
during that change process, during that change journey through the therapy.

846
01:06:23,665 --> 01:06:28,988
And I think that therapy is so clutch because firstly it's an honest voice.

847
01:06:29,029 --> 01:06:37,855
It's a voice that you can't hear or see when you're looking in the mirror or hearing
yourself because you've got a certain lens or blinders on.

848
01:06:37,855 --> 01:06:42,958
And so someone is saying, okay, let's use the tool of therapy.

849
01:06:43,180 --> 01:06:45,554
but oriented towards enlightenment.

850
01:06:45,554 --> 01:06:47,607
okay, let's just fix this.

851
01:06:47,607 --> 01:06:49,159
you have a bad marriage.

852
01:06:49,159 --> 01:06:50,451
Okay, let's fix your marriage.

853
01:06:50,451 --> 01:06:56,461
No, no, no, no, The marriage is a symptom and there's an underlying issue behind it.

854
01:06:56,461 --> 01:06:58,753
Now let's look at the underlying issue.

855
01:06:58,858 --> 01:07:04,680
And the only way to get to the true essence of the underlying issue, I think, is if your
orientation is enlightenment.

856
01:07:04,681 --> 01:07:07,102
And so if you use that to work backwards.

857
01:07:07,102 --> 01:07:18,817
So I think that is, as we think about, there's one's journey towards enlightenment, and
then there's those who are trending towards enlightenment and their desire to seek global

858
01:07:18,817 --> 01:07:19,507
consciousness.

859
01:07:19,507 --> 01:07:25,718
And I think in sort of this broader movement towards a more conscious Earth, the globe.

860
01:07:25,718 --> 01:07:39,162
society, humanity, I think we'll need a lot more Harinams out there really helping those
who have attained some level of realization will help those who are on the journey perhaps

861
01:07:39,162 --> 01:07:42,083
in stages that they've already passed through.

862
01:07:42,083 --> 01:07:52,866
And I think this sort of, this almost like mentorship model ah really needs to become more
pervasive as more and more individuals.

863
01:07:52,866 --> 01:07:53,870
uh

864
01:07:53,870 --> 01:07:57,243
attain higher levels of enlightenment or realization.

865
01:07:57,352 --> 01:08:08,485
know, one word you use, it's funny because I learned a lot from this guy because he's very
precise in his uh use of words.

866
01:08:09,026 --> 01:08:17,368
I really like this word about habit because it's not very sexy, but it's very uh
pragmatic.

867
01:08:17,368 --> 01:08:22,410
And so I have very pragmatic view of spirituality.

868
01:08:22,550 --> 01:08:25,192
To me, it's about strategy.

869
01:08:25,433 --> 01:08:28,717
I don't see people as being inherently good or bad.

870
01:08:28,717 --> 01:08:32,160
I think everybody wants the same thing in life.

871
01:08:32,361 --> 01:08:33,472
Everybody wants to be happy.

872
01:08:33,472 --> 01:08:34,643
Nobody wants to be sad.

873
01:08:34,643 --> 01:08:35,674
People want to feel full.

874
01:08:35,674 --> 01:08:37,116
They don't want to feel empty.

875
01:08:37,116 --> 01:08:39,127
We're driven by the same things.

876
01:08:39,428 --> 01:08:45,004
But some people have really good strategy and many people's strategy sucks.

877
01:08:45,044 --> 01:08:46,054
and it doesn't work.

878
01:08:46,054 --> 01:08:48,005
mean, so like, don't be so attached to it.

879
01:08:48,005 --> 01:08:49,076
Just, mean, nobody's good.

880
01:08:49,076 --> 01:08:49,676
Nobody's bad.

881
01:08:49,676 --> 01:08:51,257
It's just the strategy sucks.

882
01:08:51,257 --> 01:08:52,217
It doesn't work.

883
01:08:52,217 --> 01:08:53,718
So we're talking about flexibility.

884
01:08:53,718 --> 01:08:56,559
Like if your strategy sucks, get a better strategy.

885
01:08:56,559 --> 01:08:56,919
Okay.

886
01:08:56,919 --> 01:09:00,851
It's no, don't be so attached that your strategy has to be right.

887
01:09:00,851 --> 01:09:01,250
You do it.

888
01:09:01,250 --> 01:09:02,541
Be flexible.

889
01:09:02,561 --> 01:09:04,722
And so I think really

890
01:09:06,902 --> 01:09:20,360
I think in a way, I hadn't thought about it before, but I think this is in a way that
there's a subtle addition of somebody being, see, I see religion and spirituality being

891
01:09:20,360 --> 01:09:21,751
the same thing.

892
01:09:21,891 --> 01:09:26,104
It's just a different, it's just a different angle.

893
01:09:26,104 --> 01:09:27,244
They kind of work together.

894
01:09:27,244 --> 01:09:29,616
You really can't totally separate.

895
01:09:29,616 --> 01:09:33,390
To me, people generally talk about spirituality, has to do with

896
01:09:33,390 --> 01:09:35,811
uh an experience in a way of being.

897
01:09:35,811 --> 01:09:44,546
And religion in a way is a way, it's like a formula to actually integrate this in your day
to day life.

898
01:09:44,546 --> 01:09:54,922
And you can't separate the two out because if you have some very high experience, you
still need a way to integrate this into your day to day life so you can be an effective

899
01:09:54,922 --> 01:09:57,103
human being and not a space cadet.

900
01:09:57,444 --> 01:10:01,420
And so to me, really what we're talking about here,

901
01:10:01,420 --> 01:10:10,796
in somebody being a religiously oriented person and to being an evolved person is that it
really does get down to habits.

902
01:10:10,796 --> 01:10:27,320
if you take on a certain uh religious tradition, a spiritual tradition, you're buying
into, okay, I'm willing to revolve my life around these particular habits as opposed to

903
01:10:27,320 --> 01:10:29,691
these other, because you're going to have habits one way the other.

904
01:10:29,691 --> 01:10:32,991
They're to be like healthy habits or unhealthy habits.

905
01:10:33,192 --> 01:10:42,474
so I think that it, we were talking here coming also over here about this word
consciousness, but to consciousness to me actually this has to do with like paying

906
01:10:42,474 --> 01:10:45,515
attention at a very, at a very high level.

907
01:10:45,515 --> 01:10:47,586
And you just, there's like an awareness.

908
01:10:47,586 --> 01:10:55,838
So it just has to be an awareness that, you know, I, I am, I'm kind of committing to these
habits to be

909
01:10:56,078 --> 01:11:06,358
kind of what my life is revolving around with the understanding that these habits are
going to lead me in a direction whereas these other habits, know, you know, my habit is,

910
01:11:06,358 --> 01:11:15,338
you know, every Friday night getting off from work and going get, get schlockered at the
local bar and then getting laid by somebody, I don't know, waking up in somebody's bed and

911
01:11:15,338 --> 01:11:16,638
vomiting in the street the next morning.

912
01:11:16,638 --> 01:11:19,218
If that's my actual weekend, that's a habit.

913
01:11:19,338 --> 01:11:25,734
And, uh, that's probably not going to be a very good habit to lead me to enlightenment.

914
01:11:26,178 --> 01:11:38,213
But if getting up in the morning and praying and you know eating a certain way and you
know, that's more likely to lead me so I think that these habits are just conscious

915
01:11:38,213 --> 01:11:54,150
strategy about getting a certain outcome so if your if your goal in life is to experience
your essence and to evolve and constantly change and be everything you can be it

916
01:11:54,158 --> 01:12:00,318
It's kind of hard to kind of broker this on a moment to my moment basis.

917
01:12:00,318 --> 01:12:06,658
It's just the nature of the human being is we're too easily distracted and we're too
easily off course.

918
01:12:06,658 --> 01:12:10,758
So we kind of get something to kind of get our ass back in line.

919
01:12:10,758 --> 01:12:13,418
that's something a good thing about religion.

920
01:12:13,418 --> 01:12:22,562
People see it's restricting, but I think actually it's helpful is that you have to first
come to grips with the human nature and we have a nature to drift.

921
01:12:22,562 --> 01:12:23,503
The mind drifts.

922
01:12:23,503 --> 01:12:26,017
It's not that people are good or bad.

923
01:12:26,017 --> 01:12:34,400
It's just the natures, we easily drift and we need something to anchor ourselves towards
something that's good.

924
01:12:34,818 --> 01:12:38,340
Yeah, it's really easy to forget.

925
01:12:38,561 --> 01:12:49,988
after if you've, I mean, every time I hear you talk about experiencing infinity, I mean,
just hearing you say that takes me back to moments when I've felt that way.

926
01:12:49,988 --> 01:12:53,160
But it's so easy to forget that, you know?

927
01:12:53,160 --> 01:13:04,618
And I mean, and so every time you hear it, it's a revelation and you're like, only I could
just keep that in the forefront of my mind that, you know, that I am the grass.

928
01:13:05,089 --> 01:13:08,037
Well, I share, you know, the thing is, I...

929
01:13:09,938 --> 01:13:21,765
My tendency is to share my vulnerabilities with people and what I've gone through because
I'm like everybody else and sometimes people attribute a way of being to me as if I'm more

930
01:13:21,765 --> 01:13:23,226
better or more advanced.

931
01:13:23,226 --> 01:13:25,087
That's actually totally untrue.

932
01:13:25,087 --> 01:13:26,868
I'm just like everybody else.

933
01:13:26,968 --> 01:13:33,232
And I have the same tendency to drift and be distracted as anybody.

934
01:13:33,232 --> 01:13:36,590
In fact, because of my nature, probably even more so.

935
01:13:36,590 --> 01:13:41,210
because we were talking, come over the train, the two of us are very interested in
everything.

936
01:13:41,210 --> 01:13:42,310
And you are too.

937
01:13:42,310 --> 01:13:44,330
I mean, I can see from your book collection.

938
01:13:45,270 --> 01:13:51,710
you know, so there's a tendency to get distracted and drift because there's so many things
that can gain your attention.

939
01:13:51,750 --> 01:13:56,790
And you can easily find yourself, how the hell did I get, I mean, your head's like, how
did I get here?

940
01:13:56,790 --> 01:14:03,244
And so to me, it's just very helpful to at least have something that kind of pulls you
back.

941
01:14:03,244 --> 01:14:03,854
Yeah.

942
01:14:03,854 --> 01:14:05,065
On a daily basis.

943
01:14:05,065 --> 01:14:09,778
It's, it's, and then you can, you know, like what you were saying, that happens to me too.

944
01:14:09,778 --> 01:14:13,940
I get into the daily thing, how am going to pay the rent this month and what's going to
happen?

945
01:14:13,940 --> 01:14:25,986
And it's raining out and I can, there's so much in life to grab your attention here that I
can at times forget like who I am and what it's about.

946
01:14:26,187 --> 01:14:32,350
And if I didn't have any of this to pull me back, I actually don't know why, what happened
to me.

947
01:14:33,614 --> 01:14:34,835
I see what happens to people.

948
01:14:34,835 --> 01:14:39,439
mostly have a lot of compassion because it's understandable.

949
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:51,197
It's understandable that, you know, the five horsemen of your senses, as they say, they
can like be like wild horses and your senses and your ego and your emotions, they can take

950
01:14:51,197 --> 01:14:55,349
you like very, very quickly within a moment, just like way off.

951
01:14:55,610 --> 01:15:01,544
And if you don't have, I mean, it's, it's, to me, it's not enough to just have some like

952
01:15:01,666 --> 01:15:03,767
very generalized thing.

953
01:15:03,767 --> 01:15:15,997
um I'm a spiritual person and I do some yoga there, you know, because I talk to people
every day who've got like serious, serious problems who do a lot of yoga meditation, but

954
01:15:15,997 --> 01:15:17,748
they don't have any anchor.

955
01:15:18,222 --> 01:15:30,442
Yeah, I mean, to me, my image of anybody new age is like somebody holding a yoga mat,
wearing like precious gems and shouting at traffic.

956
01:15:32,002 --> 01:15:37,142
Like you see that all...

957
01:15:37,142 --> 01:15:38,682
You see that so much.

958
01:15:38,682 --> 01:15:41,762
mean, it's embarrassing.

959
01:15:41,762 --> 01:15:42,922
is embarrassing.

960
01:15:42,922 --> 01:15:44,562
But it's also that balance.

961
01:15:44,562 --> 01:15:45,892
mean, I think that...

962
01:15:46,144 --> 01:15:55,432
It's funny too, I think that maybe the farther you get along the path to enlightenment,
the more you find yourself like screaming at your computer, you know?

963
01:15:55,432 --> 01:15:59,106
And then you're just like, my God, why am I like this?

964
01:15:59,106 --> 01:16:03,210
Like, why has this opened up this chasm of frustration in me?

965
01:16:03,210 --> 01:16:10,036
Like the more, the more that you're, when you, when you find those moments of peace and
you're just like, yeah.

966
01:16:10,036 --> 01:16:12,618
And then when you snap back into.

967
01:16:12,716 --> 01:16:16,630
your human routine, it's that much more frustrating.

968
01:16:16,630 --> 01:16:27,959
You know you actually brought up something that I'm personally dealing with right now and
I see this a lot and it's very unexpected outcome because of course you think that if

969
01:16:27,959 --> 01:16:42,010
you're I think there's a very big thing you're on to because You know, there's this
there's this there's kind of like this inference that people are buying into that if

970
01:16:42,118 --> 01:16:54,785
I do yoga, meditation, this, that I'm going to be in La La Land and happy and nothing is
going to affect me and everything is going to be beautiful.

971
01:16:54,785 --> 01:17:10,614
But actually now I'm finding, you can have those moments, actually I'm finding now that my
moments of uh frustration and even pain are more acute.

972
01:17:10,882 --> 01:17:26,151
because I believe when you were talking I can really relate to what you're saying because
I actually feel that the more you actually do meditate and align yourself with

973
01:17:26,151 --> 01:17:33,795
consciousness that when you're not living in alignment with that it's really painful.

974
01:17:33,955 --> 01:17:38,988
Whereas the obvious, you like I'll see people who doing all kinds of wacky things

975
01:17:38,988 --> 01:17:42,820
And it doesn't seem to affect them at all, but they're kind of like in these days.

976
01:17:43,461 --> 01:17:50,174
And as you become a more conscious person, you're like kind of coming out of that days and
you're very sensitive.

977
01:17:50,174 --> 01:17:53,526
And now you're doing shit that you shouldn't be doing.

978
01:17:53,586 --> 01:17:57,658
And you did that same shit 10 years ago and you thought you were having fun.

979
01:17:57,658 --> 01:18:02,411
And now you're doing the same thing 10 years later and it's not fun.

980
01:18:02,411 --> 01:18:03,912
It's like painful.

981
01:18:04,072 --> 01:18:07,914
And it's because it's painful because you know that it's not

982
01:18:07,914 --> 01:18:11,735
in alignment with the fineness of who you are.

983
01:18:12,435 --> 01:18:22,228
And you didn't, when you lack that self-respect and that self experience, you're just like
an automatic pilot.

984
01:18:22,228 --> 01:18:23,488
You actually are numb.

985
01:18:23,488 --> 01:18:27,430
You don't actually feel that you're kicking yourself in the stomach.

986
01:18:27,430 --> 01:18:33,741
And now you're more sensitive and you're more aware and you're coming out of this cloud.

987
01:18:33,741 --> 01:18:36,728
And all of a sudden you're doing something and you're going,

988
01:18:37,342 --> 01:18:39,623
I'm doing it and it's addictive.

989
01:18:39,623 --> 01:18:51,406
You get into this compulsive behavior that you've always done the same thing and back then
it was just kind of ah gave you some comfort and now it's not giving you comfort, it's

990
01:18:51,406 --> 01:18:54,607
actually giving you pain but you don't know how to get out of it.

991
01:18:55,667 --> 01:19:05,030
I'm really even seeing this in my own life now that ah we were talking and it's really
interesting because a lot of people come to me

992
01:19:05,600 --> 01:19:08,572
as a teacher lead them out of where they're at.

993
01:19:08,572 --> 01:19:14,715
But I myself, I'm going through transition in life, but I choose to go through transition
in life.

994
01:19:14,716 --> 01:19:21,620
And I was saying to my wife the other day, she's going, well, you how are doing today?

995
01:19:21,620 --> 01:19:25,122
And I said to her, part of me is dying.

996
01:19:25,763 --> 01:19:27,394
I actually feel like part of me is dying.

997
01:19:27,394 --> 01:19:29,585
It's very painful.

998
01:19:29,585 --> 01:19:31,796
And her response to that was, that's great.

999
01:19:32,902 --> 01:19:37,885
Because that's what we want to be doing.

1000
01:19:37,885 --> 01:19:39,346
But it hurts like hell.

1001
01:19:39,346 --> 01:19:42,162
hurts like hell because the things...

1002
01:19:42,162 --> 01:19:49,812
I almost want to cry saying this because it's on such a cellular level with me.

1003
01:19:49,812 --> 01:20:01,578
But it's incredibly painful when the things in life that I used to love are now some of
the things that bring me pain.

1004
01:20:02,664 --> 01:20:07,736
And it's so hard to say goodbye to old friends.

1005
01:20:08,797 --> 01:20:13,238
But sometimes you got to make room for new friends.

1006
01:20:13,238 --> 01:20:17,640
And so there's a lot of my life that used to give me joy.

1007
01:20:17,640 --> 01:20:26,864
And it's not like it doesn't give me any joy anymore, but it's it's kind of lost its
thing.

1008
01:20:26,964 --> 01:20:32,526
And I'm needing to make new friends and I'm needing to make new friends with myself.

1009
01:20:32,874 --> 01:20:39,739
And what's happened is over the years, I've just become sensitive to myself.

1010
01:20:40,020 --> 01:20:51,178
And when I do anything in life now that is not congruent with me being my own best friend,
there's something in me that is just an incredible pain.

1011
01:20:51,178 --> 01:20:58,624
So a lot of times people again, in this la la spiritual life, they think that spiritual
growth is just

1012
01:20:58,734 --> 01:21:09,814
really just this really beautiful pleasant and not actually sometimes it's unbelievably
painful and there's no need to really run away from that pain either because you know it's

1013
01:21:09,814 --> 01:21:23,334
just you just die I mean dying a lot of times painful and sometimes in this life you need
to die many times I know myself I've you know people say well you see you know because I'm

1014
01:21:23,334 --> 01:21:28,174
turning 61 this week you know you're turning 28 we're getting there

1015
01:21:28,430 --> 01:21:33,690
And I'm 61 and people go, well, you know, you know, you've been around a while.

1016
01:21:33,690 --> 01:21:35,910
I'm going, you know, it's funny.

1017
01:21:35,910 --> 01:21:37,050
It goes fast.

1018
01:21:37,050 --> 01:21:45,450
But on the other hand, I actually feel like I've been around for like a thousand years
because in this lifetime, I think I've already died at least at least seven or eight

1019
01:21:45,450 --> 01:21:46,430
times.

1020
01:21:47,630 --> 01:21:51,970
And all by my own choice, which makes it more painful.

1021
01:21:52,810 --> 01:21:55,610
But it's almost like nobody had to do it to me.

1022
01:21:55,610 --> 01:21:58,606
I mean, I come to the point if you want to keep growing.

1023
01:21:58,606 --> 01:22:08,666
and you want to kind of go in direction you're going, you keep having to say goodbye and
you keep having to say goodbye almost to the life that you have.

1024
01:22:08,966 --> 01:22:13,806
And a of that's so, it's, it's not exactly what people think it is.

1025
01:22:13,806 --> 01:22:25,066
And, and, and again, I, you know, kind of tying it back to this thought about what
religion is, is that in a higher level, I think it's like, you're just kind of loyal to

1026
01:22:25,066 --> 01:22:26,126
these habits.

1027
01:22:26,126 --> 01:22:29,906
and these habits are actually going to crank you.

1028
01:22:29,906 --> 01:22:39,446
mean, it's, it's, it's, they're going to, I had a great spiritual teacher and the best way
to describe having a guy like that as my spiritual teacher, if you imagine that every way

1029
01:22:39,446 --> 01:22:41,846
you walk, there's a mirror in front of you.

1030
01:22:42,603 --> 01:22:42,978
Wow.

1031
01:22:42,978 --> 01:22:44,602
Okay.

1032
01:22:44,834 --> 01:23:01,802
Okay, and and that is um and that's the kind of teacher I hope to be to others but that is
a very um Difficult way to live but you have to be willing to look at yourself And people

1033
01:23:01,802 --> 01:23:03,002
don't want to do that

1034
01:23:03,502 --> 01:23:14,870
What they say is you become more conscious, you start to live outside of yourself and you
view yourself in interactions rather than actually being in the interaction.

1035
01:23:14,870 --> 01:23:19,893
It's almost like you're watching the film of yourself living your life.

1036
01:23:20,254 --> 01:23:23,196
so that sounds pretty spot on.

1037
01:23:23,196 --> 01:23:31,542
idea of seeing yourself in the mirror in every action, it allows you to be conscious at
every moment.

1038
01:23:31,956 --> 01:23:41,453
And again, I think it's difficult as you go along in this and if you are living your life
and you're choosing to have a mirror in front of you, which is a difficult choice in

1039
01:23:41,453 --> 01:23:48,398
itself, you know, ah it's not always going to be pleasant what you're seeing.

1040
01:23:48,699 --> 01:23:58,906
And that's sometimes very painful to kind of realize what you have to deal with and when
you have to overcome and, and, you know,

1041
01:23:59,616 --> 01:24:14,861
I learned this from my teacher and it's really an important part of my growth as a person
is that he really impressed upon me the fact that very few people accept themselves on any

1042
01:24:14,861 --> 01:24:15,771
level.

1043
01:24:15,852 --> 01:24:21,334
He don't accept how great you are and you don't accept your weaknesses.

1044
01:24:21,334 --> 01:24:22,784
You don't accept either.

1045
01:24:23,138 --> 01:24:27,571
You're trying to hide your weaknesses so nobody will know.

1046
01:24:27,571 --> 01:24:31,103
But everybody knows anyhow, so don't waste your breath.

1047
01:24:31,964 --> 01:24:35,086
Everybody knows what you're weak at, so don't knock yourself out.

1048
01:24:35,086 --> 01:24:37,908
oh You think you're hiding it, everybody already knows.

1049
01:24:37,908 --> 01:24:43,432
oh And equally, you can't admit to yourself how wonderful you are.

1050
01:24:43,432 --> 01:24:49,457
You can't admit to yourself how beautiful and what qualities you have because you're
guilty.

1051
01:24:49,457 --> 01:24:51,736
You feel guilty in admitting...

1052
01:24:51,736 --> 01:24:55,389
how great you are, how wonderful you are and how unique you are.

1053
01:24:55,389 --> 01:24:58,911
So you don't have any level of self-acceptance.

1054
01:24:59,252 --> 01:25:03,175
You don't love your weaknesses and you don't love your strengths.

1055
01:25:03,215 --> 01:25:08,380
So you're trying to always present yourself falsely in who you are not.

1056
01:25:08,380 --> 01:25:12,122
And this is a very, very difficult way to live.

1057
01:25:12,283 --> 01:25:21,580
So it's better to just embrace yourself as you are and you don't have to make any
apologies to anybody or who you are and love yourself.

1058
01:25:21,932 --> 01:25:26,443
Why do you think people come to the, or do you think people come to the table with this
guilt?

1059
01:25:26,443 --> 01:25:28,684
And if they do, what is it?

1060
01:25:28,684 --> 01:25:36,166
Cause I think anybody who's either in the Jewish or the Christian faith has been accused
of having guilt.

1061
01:25:36,166 --> 01:25:36,766
it's funny.

1062
01:25:36,766 --> 01:25:49,739
mean, I think I, definitely have it, but I wouldn't, there's no possible way I could trace
it to my Judaism or my involvement in a Catholic school.

1063
01:25:49,739 --> 01:25:51,970
Nobody put that upon me.

1064
01:25:52,031 --> 01:25:52,994
you know,

1065
01:25:53,774 --> 01:25:56,774
think guilt is a very positive thing.

1066
01:25:57,054 --> 01:25:58,194
But you know what?

1067
01:25:58,194 --> 01:25:59,814
It's all these things you could see.

1068
01:25:59,814 --> 01:26:03,654
You know, like we talked about like religion and we talked about guilt.

1069
01:26:03,654 --> 01:26:16,894
again, some of these things in themselves are positive, but then they get like, like they
get like in a very weird, weird, you know, what do you call it?

1070
01:26:16,894 --> 01:26:17,954
just kind of.

1071
01:26:17,954 --> 01:26:23,514
Yeah, it's like, so to me, I think what's helpful about guilt.

1072
01:26:23,776 --> 01:26:27,359
Okay, constructive guilt is that...

1073
01:26:29,646 --> 01:26:47,346
Naturally, if you're a human being and you're conscious and you're doing something that is
not in alignment with your best interest and who you're meant to be, it is helpful to feel

1074
01:26:47,346 --> 01:26:51,526
pain about that because that can motivate you out of that.

1075
01:26:51,526 --> 01:26:57,406
That is what I would call conscious guilt in that it's not like you're a bad person.

1076
01:26:57,406 --> 01:26:58,866
It's like you're

1077
01:26:58,866 --> 01:27:03,867
Simply it means that you're doing something you shouldn't be doing.

1078
01:27:03,867 --> 01:27:04,897
And that is true.

1079
01:27:04,897 --> 01:27:08,089
A lot of times we do things we simply shouldn't be doing.

1080
01:27:08,089 --> 01:27:10,089
Not because it means you're bad person.

1081
01:27:10,089 --> 01:27:11,990
It means your strategy sucks again.

1082
01:27:11,990 --> 01:27:24,773
I mean, you're, you're, you're doing something that is not congruent to the beautiful you,
you know, it's, it's so, so if you're feeling pain about it means you're actually paying

1083
01:27:24,773 --> 01:27:25,253
attention.

1084
01:27:25,253 --> 01:27:26,094
You're conscious.

1085
01:27:26,094 --> 01:27:28,088
I think that's okay, actually.

1086
01:27:28,088 --> 01:27:39,279
Like if I go out um and I've done this sometimes like I'm having a bad day, I got a short
temper, going down the street somebody looks at me the wrong way and maybe I'll go fuck

1087
01:27:39,279 --> 01:27:40,019
you.

1088
01:27:41,302 --> 01:27:43,246
You call out people on the street?

1089
01:27:43,246 --> 01:27:46,746
No, I have done their things.

1090
01:27:46,906 --> 01:27:51,006
I have, maybe too much coffee sometimes.

1091
01:27:52,346 --> 01:27:55,606
You know what, actually, I'll tell you something I once did.

1092
01:27:55,606 --> 01:28:05,626
This is very embarrassing, but this is an example of, I think, a good example of guilt in
real life.

1093
01:28:05,966 --> 01:28:07,886
Should I say this happened about 15 years ago?

1094
01:28:07,886 --> 01:28:11,186
Not that it couldn't happen tomorrow, but it's very embarrassing.

1095
01:28:11,186 --> 01:28:12,416
This is a real human.

1096
01:28:12,416 --> 01:28:13,947
a real human weakness here.

1097
01:28:13,947 --> 01:28:16,769
uh So I come back to my car.

1098
01:28:17,351 --> 01:28:21,694
My car is parked and it's like a minute over the meter.

1099
01:28:21,774 --> 01:28:25,597
And there's a meter made who's writing me out a ticket.

1100
01:28:26,879 --> 01:28:30,633
And I'm telling it's just like a minute and she's just not.

1101
01:28:30,633 --> 01:28:31,916
Not even looking up.

1102
01:28:31,916 --> 01:28:32,788
Yeah.

1103
01:28:33,225 --> 01:28:34,059
and

1104
01:28:35,872 --> 01:28:41,807
I just, I was having a bad day and she was like a hundred pounds overweight.

1105
01:28:42,528 --> 01:28:47,652
And I just said to you fat something, whatever pig, I don't know what I, whatever.

1106
01:28:47,652 --> 01:28:51,555
I said something really horrible, horrible to her.

1107
01:28:52,256 --> 01:28:54,898
And she, she was hurt by what I said.

1108
01:28:56,418 --> 01:29:03,665
But not near as much as I was hurt because it took me weeks to get over that.

1109
01:29:03,866 --> 01:29:05,047
It took me...

1110
01:29:05,047 --> 01:29:12,114
I felt horrible that I would say something this to a sister.

1111
01:29:14,476 --> 01:29:30,610
because I was having a bad day and that I would be so mean-spirited to a sister to say
something like that and I I couldn't even sleep that night and I've never done that since

1112
01:29:31,151 --> 01:29:42,214
and I think that's an example of what I would see constructive guilt is that I did
something that I was ashamed of and sometimes we do things that are worthy of being

1113
01:29:42,234 --> 01:29:43,394
ashamed of

1114
01:29:43,394 --> 01:29:47,336
because it means we're paying attention that we're not being our best.

1115
01:29:47,336 --> 01:29:50,317
And I was like, way, way under my best.

1116
01:29:50,317 --> 01:29:54,734
But that happened to me and it also wake me up that I'm capable of doing that.

1117
01:29:54,734 --> 01:29:57,950
I have to be more respectful.

1118
01:29:57,950 --> 01:30:00,361
I have to be more respectful to myself.

1119
01:30:00,361 --> 01:30:09,025
And I was actually, never saw her again, but I found myself a couple of weeks later just
spending hours going around the downtown Portland where I was living, trying to find her.

1120
01:30:09,305 --> 01:30:11,534
Just so I can apologize to her.

1121
01:30:11,534 --> 01:30:15,694
I spent hours because I just, I couldn't live with myself saying that.

1122
01:30:15,694 --> 01:30:17,134
That's not who I want to be.

1123
01:30:17,134 --> 01:30:18,254
that would be an example.

1124
01:30:18,254 --> 01:30:26,114
But this other kind of guilt was like, you know, I have to like apologize for being alive.

1125
01:30:26,114 --> 01:30:30,414
I have to apologize for having urges.

1126
01:30:30,414 --> 01:30:34,454
I have to apologize for having vulnerabilities.

1127
01:30:34,454 --> 01:30:35,770
No, that's ridiculous.

1128
01:30:35,770 --> 01:30:45,230
the kind of guilt that holds you back and I think that's something that is in the way of
people letting go, letting themselves...

1129
01:30:45,230 --> 01:30:56,690
mean, because enlightenment can be a very enjoyable feeling and there is something about
letting yourself go, turning that tape off in your mind.

1130
01:30:56,930 --> 01:31:03,224
When you do something that makes you have those guilty thoughts, acknowledging them

1131
01:31:03,224 --> 01:31:06,116
but realizing that you don't have to listen to them.

1132
01:31:06,350 --> 01:31:15,610
Well, I think also that from my experience with people, people have a much easier time
forgiving others than their own selves.

1133
01:31:15,610 --> 01:31:17,790
People have a very hard time letting go of that.

1134
01:31:17,790 --> 01:31:29,570
And that really gets in the way because then you're in the past and you have to accept
that, you make a mistake and it doesn't mean you're a bad person.

1135
01:31:29,570 --> 01:31:31,730
I mean, it just is kind of self-acceptance.

1136
01:31:31,730 --> 01:31:33,190
You know, I made a mistake.

1137
01:31:33,550 --> 01:31:36,630
And I gotta let that go.

1138
01:31:36,630 --> 01:31:42,130
Because if I don't let that go, I'm just not gonna grow.

1139
01:31:42,670 --> 01:31:54,457
find some people who, I would almost say it's about myself, for years, was just used, the
negative to say, okay, you're not working hard enough, you're not doing this, you're not

1140
01:31:54,457 --> 01:31:55,237
doing that.

1141
01:31:55,237 --> 01:32:05,002
But then you start to take on a negative self-image, and then that becomes also your tool
or the means by which you communicate with others, is you look at them through a critical

1142
01:32:05,002 --> 01:32:05,763
lens.

1143
01:32:05,763 --> 01:32:11,166
And wherever you take that on, however that comes about, it's, I think it's a...

1144
01:32:11,468 --> 01:32:15,681
could be a destructive habit to have one to yourself and then two to your relationships
and others.

1145
01:32:15,681 --> 01:32:20,065
eh it just becomes, again, coming back to this word habit, right?

1146
01:32:20,065 --> 01:32:23,228
It's the habit by which you're looking at yourself.

1147
01:32:23,228 --> 01:32:33,356
If you're looking at yourself through positive lens or through perhaps a negative lens
where you're constantly not reaching a bar or you're not satisfying yourself.

1148
01:32:33,476 --> 01:32:40,712
But that's, it's flawed methodology because you'll never live up.

1149
01:32:40,716 --> 01:32:47,549
to what you could be or what someone else's vision of what you could be is or how good
someone else is doing.

1150
01:32:47,549 --> 01:32:50,160
Like that's, that's like a big catch-22.

1151
01:32:50,160 --> 01:32:55,953
You're going around this little mouse wheel all day long, trying to live up to something,
but you'll never do that.

1152
01:32:55,953 --> 01:33:02,536
So it's almost like, okay, well let's take an entirely different paradigm shift and look
at it from, wait a minute, what am I doing?

1153
01:33:02,536 --> 01:33:07,919
Or how do I use a different means to motivate myself and others?

1154
01:33:07,919 --> 01:33:10,780
And I feel like that is,

1155
01:33:10,780 --> 01:33:19,906
Really like, know still living life going on day by day, you know, hopefully making
progress but at the same time all of sudden a great weight has been lifted because all of

1156
01:33:19,906 --> 01:33:21,687
a sudden it's not what am I not doing?

1157
01:33:21,687 --> 01:33:22,958
It's what am I doing?

1158
01:33:22,958 --> 01:33:27,251
And then how do I continue to make what I am doing even better?

1159
01:33:27,351 --> 01:33:36,717
And so I think and then all of sudden the relationships and the interactions with others
have have changed because of that now all of a sudden it's okay Well, how do I help you

1160
01:33:36,738 --> 01:33:40,980
not how do I slap you and say okay, you're doing a bad job

1161
01:33:40,980 --> 01:33:44,823
and push you down and say, well maybe I'll just look for the next person to work with.

1162
01:33:44,823 --> 01:33:46,584
No, let's build you.

1163
01:33:46,584 --> 01:33:48,175
Let's create something together.

1164
01:33:48,175 --> 01:33:50,346
And I think that that's much more meaningful.

1165
01:33:50,367 --> 01:33:55,149
it comes back to, I guess I'm realizing to have it in this situation.

1166
01:33:55,406 --> 01:34:10,726
Well, one of the things that was kind of a paradox for me was that I was able to more
easily forgive myself about things when I found it easier to apologize to other people for

1167
01:34:10,726 --> 01:34:12,266
wrongs I did to them.

1168
01:34:12,266 --> 01:34:13,186
didn't wait.

1169
01:34:13,186 --> 01:34:22,886
You know, it's kind of an odd, you know, it's like if you, if you can, if, if you can,

1170
01:34:23,264 --> 01:34:30,820
apologize if you can be graceful with another person, it means that you're not holding on
to it.

1171
01:34:30,981 --> 01:34:38,546
And I had this thing that happened to me years ago and it was actually, again, it was one
of these like epiphanies.

1172
01:34:38,947 --> 01:34:43,991
I had a friend of mine who hadn't talked to me in many, many years.

1173
01:34:44,132 --> 01:34:46,213
He was really angry with me.

1174
01:34:46,373 --> 01:34:52,088
And actually, I don't think there was a reason for it, but this person was very, very
angry with me for years.

1175
01:34:52,088 --> 01:34:53,781
hadn't talked to me in years.

1176
01:34:55,328 --> 01:35:00,212
And by happenstance, I actually bumped into this person unexpectedly.

1177
01:35:01,890 --> 01:35:12,714
And I won't go into the details because I'm trying to be confidential, but I bumped into
them in interesting time and space.

1178
01:35:13,915 --> 01:35:18,256
The person had been avoiding me for many, many years actually.

1179
01:35:19,457 --> 01:35:23,668
And this person was like jarred kind of seeing me.

1180
01:35:25,839 --> 01:35:29,494
and I knew how mad this person was at me.

1181
01:35:32,652 --> 01:35:39,628
You know, I just, you know, there's no reason to make a drama about it.

1182
01:35:39,889 --> 01:35:53,140
So I just said to the person, um you know, I understand you're mad at me and um I'm sorry
for whatever pain I caused you.

1183
01:35:53,181 --> 01:35:54,582
Please forgive me.

1184
01:35:55,843 --> 01:35:59,196
But I mean, I'll say that because I'm not holding on to it.

1185
01:35:59,694 --> 01:36:01,394
You know, so it's like free.

1186
01:36:01,394 --> 01:36:02,514
How much energy?

1187
01:36:02,514 --> 01:36:04,054
It didn't cost me a nickel.

1188
01:36:04,534 --> 01:36:06,314
You know, it didn't cost me anything.

1189
01:36:06,914 --> 01:36:10,554
And I wasn't even being manipulative.

1190
01:36:10,554 --> 01:36:13,794
was kind of like, I was like...

1191
01:36:13,794 --> 01:36:26,394
You know, the thing is, if I was guilty about it, I actually, in sense that you're talking
about guilt, I probably would have been defending myself.

1192
01:36:27,114 --> 01:36:28,834
But instead...

1193
01:36:29,056 --> 01:36:30,687
I had no shame.

1194
01:36:31,928 --> 01:36:36,201
so it was just easy to say, you know, it's on me.

1195
01:36:36,201 --> 01:36:37,431
I'll take it on.

1196
01:36:37,431 --> 01:36:37,872
I'll take it.

1197
01:36:37,872 --> 01:36:38,372
I'm sorry.

1198
01:36:38,372 --> 01:36:39,313
I'm sorry I you.

1199
01:36:39,313 --> 01:36:40,673
I'll take that on.

1200
01:36:41,054 --> 01:36:48,468
And uh the other person came over to me and they like started crying on my shoulder.

1201
01:36:50,728 --> 01:36:54,619
And it was such a relief and that's all that they wanted.

1202
01:36:55,719 --> 01:36:57,260
So what's the difference?

1203
01:36:57,280 --> 01:37:08,033
But I feel that if I was guilt oriented in the way that you're talking about that I would
still be like fighting this war.

1204
01:37:08,033 --> 01:37:09,843
mean there's no, the war is over.

1205
01:37:10,023 --> 01:37:17,515
So I think that again we would talk coming over here to me at this point in my life it's
all about service.

1206
01:37:17,515 --> 01:37:19,786
About what can you bring.

1207
01:37:20,366 --> 01:37:25,586
And the thing is, that you got to be, you got to lighten your load.

1208
01:37:25,906 --> 01:37:30,146
You can't, you can't give anything if you're all locked up in yourself.

1209
01:37:30,506 --> 01:37:34,646
And so to me, it's lot of it is a process of getting like unlocked.

1210
01:37:34,726 --> 01:37:40,966
And so one of the, there's many pieces on how you get unentangled within yourself.

1211
01:37:40,966 --> 01:37:50,208
But one of the ways that, and it's a long process, all of this, no doubt, but one of the
ways you get unlocked and unencumbered within yourself.

1212
01:37:50,208 --> 01:37:53,519
is by forgiving yourself for not being perfect.

1213
01:37:54,079 --> 01:38:02,701
As long as you're giving yourself this hard time, you don't have any, like you were
saying, you don't have the available energy to help anybody else if you're all locked up

1214
01:38:02,701 --> 01:38:04,622
feeling angry at yourself.

1215
01:38:05,322 --> 01:38:06,441
don't have anything to give.

1216
01:38:06,441 --> 01:38:08,783
You're just hammering yourself.

1217
01:38:08,923 --> 01:38:10,504
But life is short.

1218
01:38:10,504 --> 01:38:12,064
You don't have that much time.

1219
01:38:12,064 --> 01:38:13,451
People are depending on you.

1220
01:38:13,451 --> 01:38:17,375
You don't have time to like just be so self-absorbed.

1221
01:38:17,375 --> 01:38:19,796
And it is self-absorbed.

1222
01:38:19,914 --> 01:38:23,237
and just knock on on yourself, who cares?

1223
01:38:23,237 --> 01:38:24,578
It's over with.

1224
01:38:24,618 --> 01:38:26,440
You can't bring back the past.

1225
01:38:26,440 --> 01:38:28,681
If you made a mistake, just don't do it again.

1226
01:38:29,754 --> 01:38:30,823
You know?

1227
01:38:31,244 --> 01:38:43,434
But by reflecting on your disappointments with yourself, you're not helping anybody.

1228
01:38:43,995 --> 01:38:46,638
And it's a heavy, you know, you can feel it.

1229
01:38:46,638 --> 01:38:47,278
It's a...

1230
01:38:47,278 --> 01:38:51,578
It's a heavier existence and we want to feel a little lighter.

1231
01:38:52,138 --> 01:38:59,038
you got to, you kind of have to, you know, I find it's funny because I'm a very tough
teacher.

1232
01:38:59,218 --> 01:39:03,357
very tough people coming for spiritual guidance as a counselor, as teacher.

1233
01:39:03,357 --> 01:39:07,818
And I got a well earned reputation as being a hammer.

1234
01:39:09,618 --> 01:39:11,038
Yeah, I'm tough.

1235
01:39:11,038 --> 01:39:14,158
I'm very truthful with people, but

1236
01:39:14,158 --> 01:39:19,058
I find my, and they're surprised because sometimes people come to talk to me and they're
expecting the hammer.

1237
01:39:19,498 --> 01:39:22,298
And I'm going, what's your problem?

1238
01:39:22,298 --> 01:39:23,998
Why are you so hard on yourself?

1239
01:39:24,058 --> 01:39:25,738
And they're expecting that I'm going to hammer them.

1240
01:39:25,738 --> 01:39:29,498
And I'm like, why, what are you doing to yourself?

1241
01:39:29,498 --> 01:39:34,078
Why are you so hard on yourself?

1242
01:39:34,198 --> 01:39:35,158
Relax.

1243
01:39:35,558 --> 01:39:38,658
And a lot of it is because they're like, what are you saying?

1244
01:39:38,658 --> 01:39:43,640
They don't realize how much guilt their whole life is just

1245
01:39:43,640 --> 01:39:48,772
buried in guilt for any number of reasons that they're not good enough.

1246
01:39:49,353 --> 01:39:52,594
And like, come on, like give it a break.

1247
01:39:52,834 --> 01:39:56,396
know, give it, let it is come on, give it a break.

1248
01:39:56,396 --> 01:39:57,076
Let it go.

1249
01:39:57,076 --> 01:40:01,058
Uh, we all made mistakes, you know, that's how we learn.

1250
01:40:01,058 --> 01:40:02,518
Just don't do it again.

1251
01:40:03,190 --> 01:40:13,530
Yeah, and I think people are taught that that's the right way to be though, that always
hammering yourself keeps you in line and reminds you of what the right thing to do is.

1252
01:40:13,720 --> 01:40:22,712
Well, again, I just think this is a lack of like evolution because these things, you could
see how all these things kind of get glommed over religion.

1253
01:40:22,712 --> 01:40:25,585
All this it's like Cuba got to like sort all this out.

1254
01:40:25,585 --> 01:40:35,599
OK, so to me, you can be hard on yourself to the extent that you have high expectations of
yourself, which is good.

1255
01:40:36,060 --> 01:40:38,581
And it's good to be very self-disciplined.

1256
01:40:38,581 --> 01:40:40,241
These are good things.

1257
01:40:40,442 --> 01:40:41,812
But but.

1258
01:40:42,090 --> 01:40:54,397
Judging yourself harshly and unfairly that that you're not going to get anything out of So
people tend to glom all these things together, but they're actually very different I think

1259
01:40:54,397 --> 01:41:05,286
it is good to be hard on yourself in the extent that I think that person should be very
demanding on themselves and Ask a lot of themselves because to me if you don't ask a lot

1260
01:41:05,286 --> 01:41:11,966
of yourself if you're not demanding a lot of yourself It means you don't respect yourself
you see you

1261
01:41:11,966 --> 01:41:16,188
If you respect yourself, you're willing to demand a lot of yourself.

1262
01:41:16,349 --> 01:41:27,405
But if you're a very conscious person, it's like another one of these paradoxes, at the
same moment that you're expecting a lot of yourself, you still have to care about yourself

1263
01:41:27,405 --> 01:41:34,790
enough to give yourself a break for things that have happened, it's over with, and you'll
learn from it you won't do it again.

1264
01:41:34,790 --> 01:41:38,442
And it doesn't reflect on you negatively that...

1265
01:41:38,710 --> 01:41:43,172
You know, everybody deserves a break and you got to give yourself a break.

1266
01:41:43,172 --> 01:41:45,433
They're not mutually exclusive.

1267
01:41:45,813 --> 01:41:57,978
You know, in fact, again, if you can, to me, if you can give yourself a break and you can
forgive yourself and not feel guilty for breathing, you're actually creating more space

1268
01:41:58,419 --> 01:42:01,720
for you to be demanding on yourself to be good.

1269
01:42:02,781 --> 01:42:03,911
You're not tied up again.

1270
01:42:03,911 --> 01:42:05,992
It's a matter of being just all tied up.

1271
01:42:06,734 --> 01:42:20,059
I feel like a lot of this conversation around guilt leads right into a discussion around
emotions and the emotions that we feel about ourselves and how I think sometimes we let

1272
01:42:20,059 --> 01:42:26,622
our emotions control our decision-making process and I often used to think

1273
01:42:26,938 --> 01:42:37,163
I think this is probably from my early education around spirituality and consciousness
that a conscious individual experiences no emotions or it's absolutely muted.

1274
01:42:37,384 --> 01:42:39,255
You're not happy or sad.

1275
01:42:39,255 --> 01:42:40,746
You don't have these wild swings.

1276
01:42:40,746 --> 01:42:52,552
Actually, in fact, think it was an interesting conversation we had once, Harinam, ah that
I think evolved that thinking in that it wasn't necessarily an absence of emotion.

1277
01:42:52,552 --> 01:42:55,254
was an ability for one...

1278
01:42:55,374 --> 01:43:03,894
one's conscious to interpret one's bodily emotion interpret it and then move beyond it and
uh...

1279
01:43:03,894 --> 01:43:05,874
and i think that that's where uh...

1280
01:43:05,874 --> 01:43:16,054
this idea of grace comes about in a in a right now would love to hear some of your
reflections on this because i i i finally remember that conversation and it was uh...

1281
01:43:16,054 --> 01:43:21,814
it's it's it seems like it's a part of the evolution of of moving away from uh...

1282
01:43:21,814 --> 01:43:24,594
being controlled by external

1283
01:43:24,790 --> 01:43:35,541
influences and really choosing the character you want to be and not letting that be
changed or manipulated by external influences.

1284
01:43:35,854 --> 01:43:50,673
Well, again, I think what you're saying, what it triggers in me, as you were talking, I
was thinking about this uh whole idea of like the Greeks, the Stoics, the Stoicism, and

1285
01:43:50,673 --> 01:44:02,614
even the teachings of Guru Gobind Singh and even religion itself, it kind of was all
coming back to this, is that it gets back to code of conduct in that what religion is and

1286
01:44:02,614 --> 01:44:09,426
And I, again, to get back to what stoicism is, that people, people don't understand.

1287
01:44:09,426 --> 01:44:18,759
It's not like somebody who chooses to have their life run by their ideals and their values
and their code of conduct.

1288
01:44:18,759 --> 01:44:21,280
It's not like they don't have feelings.

1289
01:44:21,280 --> 01:44:28,862
In fact, they're acutely aware of their feelings, but they've already made the decision,
which takes great courage.

1290
01:44:29,516 --> 01:44:33,649
that they're not going to let these feelings affect their behavior.

1291
01:44:33,649 --> 01:44:44,917
This actually, to me, when I was younger, I read about the Stoics, like in Greece, and
people talked about Stoics, they're Stoic, they're Stoic.

1292
01:44:44,917 --> 01:44:51,942
And it was like this negative connotation is that, yeah, they're very Stoic.

1293
01:44:53,083 --> 01:44:57,376
And again, when I'm younger, I didn't question this, that people had this negative...

1294
01:44:57,594 --> 01:45:07,619
connotation about people who are like this that somehow they were these feelingless
persons and I never actually Revisited that until many many years later when I was

1295
01:45:07,619 --> 01:45:21,945
studying the teachings of Guru Gobind Singh is that he was totally a stoic that That he
was teaching that you your behavior is guided by your ideals in your code of conduct But

1296
01:45:21,945 --> 01:45:24,486
he never was saying that people don't have feelings

1297
01:45:24,486 --> 01:45:25,806
that they know.

1298
01:45:25,806 --> 01:45:37,590
No, to the contrary, I feel that when a person lives by these ideals and that directs
their behavior, then their feelings are actually right in their face.

1299
01:45:37,750 --> 01:45:46,692
Because other people I find, you know, just watching on the subway, you know, watching the
people, is that people have a feeling and they tend to just react to that feeling.

1300
01:45:46,692 --> 01:45:50,193
So they don't even have time to digest it, you know.

1301
01:45:50,193 --> 01:45:53,314
So they're horny, so they're going to look to get laid.

1302
01:45:53,314 --> 01:45:55,686
They're a little sad, they're going to look to get drunk.

1303
01:45:55,686 --> 01:45:58,896
They're trying to find that they're feeling insecure.

1304
01:45:58,896 --> 01:46:00,819
They're going to look for, do I get some money?

1305
01:46:00,819 --> 01:46:03,721
They're bored, they need some stimulation.

1306
01:46:03,721 --> 01:46:06,002
Let me go to the track and do some gambling.

1307
01:46:06,363 --> 01:46:11,146
So they're trying to get some immediate gratification to address these feelings.

1308
01:46:11,146 --> 01:46:17,481
And in doing this, they don't even give themselves the opportunity to really digest the
feelings themselves.

1309
01:46:17,481 --> 01:46:19,832
Like what actually is that feeling?

1310
01:46:19,832 --> 01:46:22,444
Because they're just trying to kind of...

1311
01:46:22,444 --> 01:46:23,794
react to it.

1312
01:46:23,974 --> 01:46:30,756
But person who is, I would say, stoic is certainly feeling those feelings.

1313
01:46:30,756 --> 01:46:40,609
right in their face and they're actually having to make decisions based on what their
ideals are, not reacting to the feelings.

1314
01:46:40,609 --> 01:46:46,281
So to me, people who are stoic actually are more in touch with their feelings, not less
so.

1315
01:46:46,661 --> 01:46:50,002
They're just not being controlled by them.

1316
01:46:50,230 --> 01:46:56,795
And in doing so, get control of themselves and they have even a deeper appreciation of the
feelings.

1317
01:46:56,795 --> 01:47:01,798
So it's not presented in this way, but I consider myself to be a stoic person.

1318
01:47:01,798 --> 01:47:05,405
Yet most people who know me know that I wear my feelings on my sleeve.

1319
01:47:05,405 --> 01:47:17,848
I'm a very emotionally expressive person, but my, my, but in spite of all that, I, my,
decisions and behaviors are not dictated by my emotions.

1320
01:47:18,449 --> 01:47:19,914
So again,

1321
01:47:19,914 --> 01:47:30,981
Sometimes what that means is going back to what we're saying is that sometimes I have to
deal with my feelings and it's very painful Because I have to live with it.

1322
01:47:31,302 --> 01:47:36,936
I'm not trying to I'm not trying to do something like crush it I have to live with it.

1323
01:47:36,936 --> 01:47:48,774
So if I'm feeling sadness or conflict or any of this I have to just live with it and
understand it But I can't let it

1324
01:47:48,864 --> 01:47:52,396
I can't let it control me because then I'm a slave.

1325
01:47:52,537 --> 01:47:55,439
This is what the spiritual teachers are teaching well.

1326
01:47:55,439 --> 01:48:00,372
They're really trying to teach you how to be free from slavery.

1327
01:48:00,372 --> 01:48:07,086
You can be slave of a government, but you can also be slave to your emotions.

1328
01:48:07,927 --> 01:48:09,848
And then you lose control.

1329
01:48:10,369 --> 01:48:12,670
And then you don't have the life that you want.

1330
01:48:24,105 --> 01:48:27,786
Our music is brought to you today by Auntie Depressant.

1331
01:48:27,947 --> 01:48:31,048
Thanks to Zorover Dollywall for joining us today.

1332
01:48:31,048 --> 01:48:33,888
He's a fascinating guy and a man of the world.

1333
01:48:33,888 --> 01:48:36,069
Find him on Twitter at Zorover.

1334
01:48:36,069 --> 01:48:39,750
uh

1335
01:48:39,982 --> 01:48:42,194
Hari Nam is coming to where you live.

1336
01:48:42,194 --> 01:48:53,474
This Saturday the 16th he will be at Synergy Yoga in Miami and Sunday the 17th he will be
at Mystic Waters Kava Bar in Hollywood Beach, Florida.

1337
01:48:53,474 --> 01:49:00,159
For more information and to register, email him at harinam56 at gmail.com.

1338
01:49:00,159 --> 01:49:07,786
That's H-A-R-I-N-A-M-5-6 at gmail.com or on his website at yogaheaven.

1339
01:49:07,786 --> 01:49:08,646
oh

1340
01:49:09,038 --> 01:49:11,539
Follow him on Twitter at Carinon11.

1341
01:49:12,859 --> 01:49:15,340
This has been a Stinky Production.

1342
01:49:15,340 --> 01:49:23,102
us at Facebook.com slash like it Stinky and at StinkyProductions.com for more unavoidable
podcasts.

1343
01:49:23,722 --> 01:49:27,543
Please rate, review and subscribe to us on iTunes.

1344
01:49:28,323 --> 01:49:31,384
And if you like this show, share it with your friend.

1345
01:49:31,524 --> 01:49:33,345
I'm Fanny Cohen.

1346
01:49:33,625 --> 01:49:37,598
Thanks for listening and see you around the old earth.

1347
01:50:46,414 --> 01:50:47,938
you

1348
01:51:09,454 --> 01:51:11,016
Hmm, stinky.