1 00:00:00,305 --> 00:00:03,005 Trisha Price: If you build software or lead people who do, 2 00:00:03,195 --> 00:00:04,405 then you're in the right place. 3 00:00:04,995 --> 00:00:09,765 This is hard calls, real decisions, real leaders, real outcomes. 4 00:00:10,985 --> 00:00:14,965 Hi, I'm Trisha Price, and welcome back to Hard Calls where product leaders 5 00:00:14,995 --> 00:00:19,325 come to talk about the business outcomes they're accountable to and the hard calls 6 00:00:19,555 --> 00:00:21,485 they have had to make to achieve them. 7 00:00:22,314 --> 00:00:25,965 Today's guest is one of the most influential voices in 8 00:00:25,965 --> 00:00:27,205 modern product management. 9 00:00:27,534 --> 00:00:30,525 Marty Cagan partner at the Silicon Valley Product Group. 10 00:00:30,854 --> 00:00:35,245 Marty has spent decades shaping how the world's best tech companies build product. 11 00:00:35,785 --> 00:00:39,830 He started with executive roles at eBay, AOL, and Netscape, and 12 00:00:39,830 --> 00:00:43,190 he's continued his work advising product leaders across the globe. 13 00:00:43,820 --> 00:00:47,030 He's the author of three foundational books in the product world. 14 00:00:47,410 --> 00:00:49,390 If you haven't read them, you should. 15 00:00:49,770 --> 00:00:52,950 The First is Inspired, How to Create Tech Products Customers 16 00:00:52,950 --> 00:00:57,270 Love, the second, Empowered Ordinary People, Extraordinary Products. 17 00:00:57,530 --> 00:01:00,630 And the third, my personal favorite, and one we're gonna talk most 18 00:01:00,630 --> 00:01:04,310 about today, Transformed Moving to the Product Operating Model. 19 00:01:04,780 --> 00:01:08,990 Through Marty's writing, coaching, and speaking, he has helped redefine 20 00:01:08,990 --> 00:01:12,990 the role of product teams moving from feature factory to strategic 21 00:01:12,990 --> 00:01:14,750 driver of innovation and growth. 22 00:01:15,290 --> 00:01:18,310 His work is read, taught and referenced by product leaders everywhere. 23 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:20,230 Marty, welcome to the show. 24 00:01:20,690 --> 00:01:22,050 Thanks very much, Trisha. 25 00:01:22,070 --> 00:01:22,830 Thanks for inviting me. 26 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:28,259 I'm so excited to have you here, and as you know this is the Hard Calls Podcast, 27 00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,539 and so I like to kick off each one of these sessions to just hear from you. 28 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:39,060 If you look back over your product career, what has one hard call that you've had 29 00:01:39,060 --> 00:01:40,979 to make and what made it so challenging? 30 00:01:43,290 --> 00:01:47,380 Marty Cagan: Well, first of all, you probably people who could do the math. 31 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:53,060 Man, I've had a very long career, I mean, literally 45 years doing tech products. 32 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,760 So a lot of calls and a lot of mistakes for sure. 33 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:58,470 Honestly. 34 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:05,260 Um I'm guessing what you're really looking for is hard calls that you kind of regret. 35 00:02:05,620 --> 00:02:08,110 The hard calls that went well make you look smart. 36 00:02:08,330 --> 00:02:12,090 But hard calls that don't go well are humbling for sure. 37 00:02:12,850 --> 00:02:15,720 And honestly, they're the ones that really stick in my head. 38 00:02:16,180 --> 00:02:19,110 The other thing I'd probably admit is the first half of my career was 39 00:02:19,170 --> 00:02:26,229 as an operator really running product organizations and, the calls for that 40 00:02:26,299 --> 00:02:31,680 are a lot harder than the second half of my career, which was is as an advisor 41 00:02:31,710 --> 00:02:35,519 and coach where I give my opinion, but really it's whatever the person 42 00:02:35,519 --> 00:02:37,519 wants to do and I try to support 'em. 43 00:02:38,299 --> 00:02:40,230 That's much easier. 44 00:02:40,709 --> 00:02:46,750 So the calls I do, you could say, well, I make some hard calls on what to call the 45 00:02:46,750 --> 00:02:48,549 product operating model in a new book. 46 00:02:48,609 --> 00:02:51,430 But really it doesn't matter that much in the world whether 47 00:02:51,430 --> 00:02:52,710 or not you get that right. 48 00:02:53,220 --> 00:02:57,310 I would, I mean, we all have scars. 49 00:02:57,670 --> 00:03:05,209 I have scars that my last real job was running product at eBay. 50 00:03:05,209 --> 00:03:08,825 And at the time we were actually twice as big as Amazon, so it was a 51 00:03:08,935 --> 00:03:11,465 very major property for the internet. 52 00:03:11,925 --> 00:03:15,945 And I remember that one of the, and the good news is it was young 53 00:03:16,005 --> 00:03:18,705 and it was growing and there was opportunities everywhere and we 54 00:03:18,705 --> 00:03:19,785 did a lot of very good things. 55 00:03:19,845 --> 00:03:24,705 But there was one big product called, that I remember, that I personally made. 56 00:03:25,524 --> 00:03:29,295 It was a huge mistake and I really learned a very hard lesson. 57 00:03:29,854 --> 00:03:34,665 I don't know how much I could spend an hour telling you about how, what made 58 00:03:34,665 --> 00:03:39,204 it hard and stuff, but fundamentally, we had just acquired PayPal. 59 00:03:39,954 --> 00:03:44,109 And, the hardest part for people on early eBay was just paying for something. 60 00:03:44,500 --> 00:03:47,070 They were literally sending checks through the mail. 61 00:03:47,230 --> 00:03:50,590 I mean, a lot of people were born after what I'm describing, so it was a long 62 00:03:50,590 --> 00:03:56,510 time ago, but it was, this idea of integrating a real payment solution. 63 00:03:56,800 --> 00:03:59,310 There was some crummy ones before, but this was good. 64 00:04:00,084 --> 00:04:03,984 Was something that we were really excited about and it was one of 65 00:04:03,984 --> 00:04:05,984 those rare eBay's, a marketplace. 66 00:04:06,045 --> 00:04:08,305 So there's buyers, sellers, and then eBay. 67 00:04:08,525 --> 00:04:10,545 It was one of the rare win win-wins. 68 00:04:10,545 --> 00:04:11,465 Buyers wanted it. 69 00:04:11,465 --> 00:04:12,385 Sellers wanted it. 70 00:04:12,525 --> 00:04:13,225 We wanted it. 71 00:04:13,644 --> 00:04:17,865 It was just a great win, and we tested the hell out of it because this was a big 72 00:04:17,865 --> 00:04:23,065 change to the workflow to list something, a big change to buy something we did. 73 00:04:23,065 --> 00:04:24,265 We tested the hell out of it. 74 00:04:24,284 --> 00:04:28,465 We did all the practices that, you try to advocate. 75 00:04:28,535 --> 00:04:32,700 Because of other mistakes earlier you learn that are really important to do. 76 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:34,060 And we did it. 77 00:04:34,060 --> 00:04:36,660 And I remember, 'cause we got in this, right before we launched, 78 00:04:36,760 --> 00:04:40,540 we had a, we all sat down with the CEO and said, are we ready? 79 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:41,660 And I'm like, we're ready. 80 00:04:41,770 --> 00:04:44,660 This is gonna be, this is, we're, we're so excited. 81 00:04:45,080 --> 00:04:46,540 The community knows about it. 82 00:04:46,540 --> 00:04:47,660 They're excited about it. 83 00:04:47,680 --> 00:04:49,420 The people that tried it loved it. 84 00:04:50,680 --> 00:04:51,900 Anyway, we launched it. 85 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:53,140 It was a disaster. 86 00:04:54,385 --> 00:04:55,245 And it was a disaster. 87 00:04:55,275 --> 00:04:57,845 It's one of those things, whenever you launch something big, you're kind of 88 00:04:57,845 --> 00:05:01,925 looking at the data because it's normal that there's a little bit of a dip because 89 00:05:02,195 --> 00:05:07,005 it's basically people are learning how it now works and then that's normal, but you 90 00:05:07,025 --> 00:05:10,405 expect it to go up again and get better. 91 00:05:10,465 --> 00:05:11,125 And it wasn't. 92 00:05:11,665 --> 00:05:13,805 And I'm like, finally, oh my God. 93 00:05:14,045 --> 00:05:15,685 I know, I know what happened. 94 00:05:15,745 --> 00:05:16,585 We screwed up. 95 00:05:16,585 --> 00:05:17,705 I screwed up. 96 00:05:17,705 --> 00:05:22,565 and, and this was a lesson that I've got so many scars. 97 00:05:22,605 --> 00:05:27,405 I share this with so many companies even today, that it's not enough 98 00:05:27,405 --> 00:05:29,085 that people love your product. 99 00:05:30,435 --> 00:05:31,164 It's not enough. 100 00:05:31,435 --> 00:05:33,925 They also have to be able to digest it. 101 00:05:34,745 --> 00:05:39,205 And what was going on was, even though these buyers and sellers were screaming 102 00:05:39,344 --> 00:05:44,985 for this solution, that doesn't mean they were screaming to change how they work. 103 00:05:46,224 --> 00:05:51,195 And, I remembered that very early when I met the co-founder 104 00:05:51,294 --> 00:05:52,914 of eBay, Pierre Omidyar. 105 00:05:52,934 --> 00:05:54,554 He had warned me about this. 106 00:05:56,234 --> 00:05:59,715 I don't even know, I actually haven't told this story in probably more than a decade. 107 00:06:01,345 --> 00:06:04,145 I'll tell you the story just 'cause it's hilarious, but feel free to edit 108 00:06:04,145 --> 00:06:06,625 it out if you go because it's very old. 109 00:06:06,725 --> 00:06:12,225 But I thought this boy, I should have listened to him harder on this. 110 00:06:12,805 --> 00:06:16,225 He was explaining to me that, 'cause I had only done products 111 00:06:16,225 --> 00:06:18,525 for developers before eBay. 112 00:06:18,825 --> 00:06:22,605 So I was a platform guy, developer platform, and I love developer 113 00:06:22,605 --> 00:06:25,845 tools and eBay's this weird marketplace with all these crazy 114 00:06:25,865 --> 00:06:28,005 buyers and lots of crazy sellers. 115 00:06:28,005 --> 00:06:29,565 Just very different personalities. 116 00:06:30,195 --> 00:06:31,725 Very fun, but very different. 117 00:06:31,785 --> 00:06:34,205 He was trying to explain to me, they're not like developers. 118 00:06:34,915 --> 00:06:38,405 They're like, they're very, they view it as their website. 119 00:06:38,485 --> 00:06:44,114 They view it as their solution, and and we are just the custodians. 120 00:06:44,414 --> 00:06:44,835 Trisha Price: Mm-hmm. 121 00:06:45,215 --> 00:06:48,594 Marty Cagan: And he was telling me right, in the earliest days, he 122 00:06:48,594 --> 00:06:50,395 had no idea it was gonna take off. 123 00:06:50,765 --> 00:06:54,205 Like this, but, he just whipped together. 124 00:06:54,304 --> 00:06:55,804 He was a front end developer. 125 00:06:55,804 --> 00:06:58,525 He whipped together this website that just looked hideous. 126 00:06:58,525 --> 00:07:02,724 You can find out on the way back machine just how hideous eBay used to look. 127 00:07:03,145 --> 00:07:04,765 It was really, really ugly. 128 00:07:05,484 --> 00:07:06,844 Probably one of the ugliest sites ever. 129 00:07:07,344 --> 00:07:08,525 But it worked, right? 130 00:07:08,664 --> 00:07:13,445 So it was taking off and, he was surprised because, news. 131 00:07:13,965 --> 00:07:14,255 Crew. 132 00:07:14,695 --> 00:07:17,755 Actually, the San Jose Mercury News, for those of you that know, 133 00:07:18,235 --> 00:07:21,055 your internet history, they were like the regional newspaper. 134 00:07:21,085 --> 00:07:23,135 They said, this is, we'd like to interview you. 135 00:07:23,195 --> 00:07:27,895 And, and, and they took a picture of the screen and he was embarrassed 136 00:07:27,895 --> 00:07:33,375 because now he sees on a newspaper this hideous screen, so he says, oh 137 00:07:33,375 --> 00:07:34,895 my gosh, we just have to fix this. 138 00:07:34,995 --> 00:07:37,575 And like, like they hired their first designer and they just. 139 00:07:38,200 --> 00:07:41,660 All he actually did was change the visual design. 140 00:07:41,730 --> 00:07:43,930 They literally just changed the color. 141 00:07:44,350 --> 00:07:49,340 Uh and because they had this hideous background, yellow background, 142 00:07:49,560 --> 00:07:51,220 it was just, you don't do that. 143 00:07:51,220 --> 00:07:51,500 Right? 144 00:07:51,500 --> 00:07:54,220 And, and anyway, he, all they did was change the color and 145 00:07:54,220 --> 00:07:55,900 they had their first online 146 00:07:57,970 --> 00:07:58,260 riot. 147 00:07:58,370 --> 00:08:02,260 They literally the the buyers and sellers made petitions online 148 00:08:03,239 --> 00:08:04,859 to get eBay to change it back. 149 00:08:05,359 --> 00:08:08,520 And he was like, I, I'm not trying to pick this fight. 150 00:08:09,500 --> 00:08:11,900 This this, and so we just said whatever. 151 00:08:11,919 --> 00:08:12,979 And they rolled it back. 152 00:08:13,330 --> 00:08:18,030 They rolled the whole thing back and he, but he was still very embarrassed. 153 00:08:18,030 --> 00:08:23,580 And, the comp, the company kept growing and then a TV station wanted to interview 154 00:08:23,580 --> 00:08:29,460 him and he said, well, this is, I just can't go public like this again. 155 00:08:29,919 --> 00:08:31,500 But he said this time he was smarter. 156 00:08:32,620 --> 00:08:35,150 This time, what he did is over the next two weeks. 157 00:08:36,250 --> 00:08:41,360 Every two days, they rolled out a slightly lighter shade of yellow. 158 00:08:41,700 --> 00:08:41,920 Wow. 159 00:08:42,660 --> 00:08:44,360 And in two weeks it was gone. 160 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:46,320 There were no yellow and nobody said anything. 161 00:08:46,700 --> 00:08:47,630 And he was trying. 162 00:08:47,630 --> 00:08:50,270 And I laughed, I thought it was funny. 163 00:08:50,340 --> 00:08:55,840 But he was trying to con explain to me that change for a community 164 00:08:55,840 --> 00:08:57,720 like this is really, really hard. 165 00:08:57,940 --> 00:09:02,440 And I, I learned what he was really trying to explain to me when I made that mistake. 166 00:09:02,975 --> 00:09:04,385 Yeah, on the payment stuff. 167 00:09:04,915 --> 00:09:06,335 But it's true. 168 00:09:06,335 --> 00:09:08,785 And Facebook has made this mistake. 169 00:09:08,785 --> 00:09:11,565 Twitter made this mistake a lot of people do. 170 00:09:11,565 --> 00:09:13,785 It's it's a hard lesson to learn. 171 00:09:14,165 --> 00:09:17,825 But anyway, when you do it this long, you acculate lots of lessons. 172 00:09:18,125 --> 00:09:19,475 Of course, learned like this. 173 00:09:19,545 --> 00:09:23,065 Trisha Price: I mean, Marty, that story is still so true for all of us today. 174 00:09:23,285 --> 00:09:23,665 I'm sure. 175 00:09:23,855 --> 00:09:26,175 Very true for the companies you advise and help. 176 00:09:27,745 --> 00:09:32,339 Change management's hard and if we're in the business of not shipping features 177 00:09:32,339 --> 00:09:37,699 and celebrating, but getting outcomes, thinking about how people can consume what 178 00:09:37,699 --> 00:09:41,780 we're changing and putting out there is, is a super important part of what we do. 179 00:09:42,079 --> 00:09:43,900 So that's still super relevant. 180 00:09:44,079 --> 00:09:47,579 And, and so with that, Marty, one of the things I'm really excited to 181 00:09:47,579 --> 00:09:53,625 learn from you about today and talk to you about today is operating models, 182 00:09:54,355 --> 00:10:00,385 frameworks, and you and I both know we, we see product leaders, product 183 00:10:00,435 --> 00:10:05,065 teams all across the world, and almost all of them, not all of them, but 184 00:10:05,065 --> 00:10:11,075 almost all of them have some sort of an operating model, a cadence, a framework. 185 00:10:11,435 --> 00:10:15,775 But a lot of times it's still falling short in terms of driving 186 00:10:15,795 --> 00:10:18,455 the outcomes that they're trying to achieve and accountable to. 187 00:10:19,235 --> 00:10:23,135 So, Marty maybe you could just kick us off with why that is. 188 00:10:23,205 --> 00:10:24,735 What are most people getting wrong? 189 00:10:24,735 --> 00:10:28,415 Because I know you seeing this time and time again was very influential 190 00:10:28,435 --> 00:10:29,775 for your most recent book. 191 00:10:30,365 --> 00:10:30,655 Marty Cagan: Yeah. 192 00:10:31,965 --> 00:10:39,495 Well, I mean obviously everybody works some way, and, that way, they often 193 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:44,360 will call their framework or their SDLC or their, their operating model. 194 00:10:44,780 --> 00:10:50,520 So, but if you look closely at most how most of them work, 195 00:10:52,110 --> 00:10:54,800 it's all around projects. 196 00:10:55,510 --> 00:10:58,640 It's all around features and projects in particular. 197 00:10:59,230 --> 00:11:00,400 It's not around outcomes. 198 00:11:01,600 --> 00:11:04,580 Now sort of easy to understand why it's not around outcomes 199 00:11:04,820 --> 00:11:06,020 'cause outcomes is hard. 200 00:11:07,100 --> 00:11:07,900 Outcomes is super hard. 201 00:11:08,210 --> 00:11:12,340 What it's about, and honestly, even when they don't acknowledge 202 00:11:12,340 --> 00:11:13,940 this, it's about predictability. 203 00:11:14,530 --> 00:11:18,980 They're trying to optimize for predictability, so they wanna predict 204 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:20,500 how much money they're gonna make. 205 00:11:20,650 --> 00:11:22,660 They wanna predict when things are gonna happen. 206 00:11:22,710 --> 00:11:25,600 These are, and these are not crazy things to wanna know. 207 00:11:25,780 --> 00:11:26,972 Trisha Price: when you're running a business those are important things. 208 00:11:26,995 --> 00:11:29,345 Marty Cagan: Those are, they're running a business and so they're 209 00:11:29,345 --> 00:11:30,595 reasonable things to wanna know. 210 00:11:30,955 --> 00:11:35,865 the, part that gets so many companies is they don't realize that these are 211 00:11:35,865 --> 00:11:38,425 things they can't know at that stage. 212 00:11:38,885 --> 00:11:40,105 So that's a different issue. 213 00:11:40,125 --> 00:11:43,545 But they, they set up their whole way of working around this. 214 00:11:43,765 --> 00:11:47,585 Though we, we call that the project model. 215 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:54,620 So you fund projects, you staff projects, you build projects, you ship projects. 216 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,030 That's waterfall basically is all around that. 217 00:11:58,490 --> 00:12:03,540 The whole, the whole formal lifecycles, software development lifecycle, product 218 00:12:03,650 --> 00:12:06,420 lifecycle, stage gate, phase gate. 219 00:12:06,420 --> 00:12:10,484 These are all just names for the same basic thing. 220 00:12:10,944 --> 00:12:14,885 You staff a project, you figure out requirements, you design the solution, you 221 00:12:14,885 --> 00:12:19,655 build the solution, you test the solution, and finally you ship the solution. 222 00:12:19,985 --> 00:12:20,185 Right? 223 00:12:20,185 --> 00:12:20,525 Then you 224 00:12:20,545 --> 00:12:21,685 Trisha Price: have a big party, right, Marty? 225 00:12:21,834 --> 00:12:22,125 Yeah. 226 00:12:22,125 --> 00:12:22,765 Then you have a release 227 00:12:22,765 --> 00:12:26,005 Marty Cagan: party and you, you kind of feel like you need it by 228 00:12:26,005 --> 00:12:30,364 then and, but unfortunately you've sort of given up by then on outcome. 229 00:12:31,405 --> 00:12:34,975 Because you've had to make real trade-offs on what you're gonna do. 230 00:12:35,735 --> 00:12:40,135 And so, and of course when the company decided to do it, they only funded 231 00:12:40,195 --> 00:12:41,615 it for a certain amount of time. 232 00:12:41,715 --> 00:12:43,735 And there's all these, there. 233 00:12:43,875 --> 00:12:47,135 The, the consequences of the project model are so well known 234 00:12:47,135 --> 00:12:49,335 because we've seen it for 40 years. 235 00:12:49,955 --> 00:12:51,415 So it is really well known. 236 00:12:51,555 --> 00:12:55,155 So many people all write an article that talks about it and they're like, how did 237 00:12:55,155 --> 00:12:56,695 that's what's going on in our company? 238 00:12:56,825 --> 00:12:57,815 Are you listening? 239 00:12:57,935 --> 00:12:58,275 No. 240 00:12:58,485 --> 00:13:00,695 It's like, this is what so many companies do. 241 00:13:01,245 --> 00:13:06,695 However, if is not all the companies, many companies figured 242 00:13:06,805 --> 00:13:11,495 this out many years ago that that, that's actually all about output. 243 00:13:12,355 --> 00:13:14,695 And what matters supposedly is outcomes. 244 00:13:15,115 --> 00:13:18,535 And what would we do differently if we're trying to optimize for outcomes? 245 00:13:20,065 --> 00:13:21,875 Well, okay, that's a very different thing. 246 00:13:21,875 --> 00:13:25,165 Just shipping and not achieving an outcome is an empty victory. 247 00:13:25,194 --> 00:13:31,485 And the irony is, the teams that actually ship for outcomes develop for outcomes are 248 00:13:31,485 --> 00:13:36,755 much more likely to predict an accurate date than those that are doing projects. 249 00:13:37,115 --> 00:13:41,485 So it's, it's counterintuitive, but anyway, that's, that's the case. 250 00:13:41,505 --> 00:13:43,205 And so what we have been. 251 00:13:43,840 --> 00:13:47,640 I mean, honestly, Silicon Valley Product Group, I started it almost 252 00:13:47,640 --> 00:13:51,720 25 years ago, and it was just about sharing these techniques I would see 253 00:13:51,720 --> 00:13:56,560 in the best companies because I was, lucky enough to work at some really 254 00:13:56,590 --> 00:14:01,360 good companies that had worked this way, and yet then I started visiting. 255 00:14:02,405 --> 00:14:05,495 Because I was told you I was doing tools for developers. 256 00:14:05,564 --> 00:14:05,855 Yeah. 257 00:14:06,015 --> 00:14:07,495 I started visiting customers. 258 00:14:07,845 --> 00:14:08,135 Yeah. 259 00:14:08,135 --> 00:14:11,574 Early on I'm like, oh my God, how come you work this way? 260 00:14:12,005 --> 00:14:12,615 It's crazy. 261 00:14:12,665 --> 00:14:13,814 Where did this come from? 262 00:14:14,115 --> 00:14:15,224 And they're like, what do you mean? 263 00:14:15,224 --> 00:14:20,855 This is how everybody works in the Midwest and the East and Europe and I'm like 264 00:14:21,150 --> 00:14:23,329 Wow, that does not look good. 265 00:14:23,350 --> 00:14:25,250 And you're, you're not happy with the results. 266 00:14:25,350 --> 00:14:28,730 You don't seem to even like your jobs and your customers are not happy. 267 00:14:29,270 --> 00:14:30,689 Why do you keep doing it this way? 268 00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:32,810 And it's like, well, this is how we've always done it. 269 00:14:32,810 --> 00:14:34,089 This is what our leaders know. 270 00:14:34,829 --> 00:14:37,850 And again, there's a real desire for that predictability. 271 00:14:38,709 --> 00:14:45,370 So what, what the latest book is all about is just sharing the, the techniques 272 00:14:45,370 --> 00:14:47,610 that we see used in the best companies. 273 00:14:48,750 --> 00:14:55,355 Trisha Price: And when people are starting to move from this project model to a 274 00:14:55,355 --> 00:15:01,194 product model, what do you think the hardest hurdles for them to get over? 275 00:15:01,415 --> 00:15:06,245 Is it the trust, the the giving up control and empowering their teams? 276 00:15:06,645 --> 00:15:11,530 You know what is it that is like the thing that just catches everybody every time? 277 00:15:13,410 --> 00:15:14,010 Marty Cagan: A lot of things. 278 00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:19,569 So everything you mentioned for sure, but more, so there's a lot of things. 279 00:15:19,630 --> 00:15:24,165 In fact, the way I've really started framing it as very much like a product. 280 00:15:24,165 --> 00:15:26,295 What does it take for a product to be successful? 281 00:15:26,295 --> 00:15:26,575 Mm-hmm. 282 00:15:26,735 --> 00:15:30,575 A lot of things have to be done right For a product to be successful. 283 00:15:30,605 --> 00:15:32,975 It's gotta have a good design, it's good experience. 284 00:15:32,975 --> 00:15:34,575 Of course, it's gotta be technically feasible. 285 00:15:34,605 --> 00:15:36,055 It's gotta provide real value. 286 00:15:36,055 --> 00:15:37,095 It's gotta have a lot of things right. 287 00:15:37,515 --> 00:15:40,775 And all it takes is really one of those to go significantly 288 00:15:40,865 --> 00:15:42,055 wrong and you've got a failed 289 00:15:42,824 --> 00:15:45,995 product just like you'll have a failed transformation. 290 00:15:46,455 --> 00:15:48,755 So there are a lot of things you've gotta get right. 291 00:15:48,975 --> 00:15:53,475 The hardest things for, I'd say for most of those companies to get right. 292 00:15:54,795 --> 00:15:55,955 Probably starting right at the top. 293 00:15:57,030 --> 00:16:00,290 So many people want to think of everything we're talking about as 294 00:16:00,290 --> 00:16:04,770 just a tech thing, an IT thing, but it's not, it's a company thing. 295 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:05,210 Trisha Price: Yeah. 296 00:16:05,510 --> 00:16:08,770 Marty Cagan: And so because it's a company thing, it impacts finance, 297 00:16:09,100 --> 00:16:14,370 sales, marketing, services, legal, fine, compliance, all of these. 298 00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:18,450 And so all that means if the CEO is not on board. 299 00:16:19,345 --> 00:16:23,445 Most of those people are gonna be, passive aggressive. 300 00:16:23,445 --> 00:16:27,275 They'll just wait, they won't do anything or they'll get in the way literally. 301 00:16:27,735 --> 00:16:32,515 So the CEO really has to have, they don't have to be experienced in it, but they 302 00:16:32,515 --> 00:16:37,075 do have to understand what's going on and step in and show some leadership at times. 303 00:16:37,375 --> 00:16:37,795 Mm-hmm. 304 00:16:38,255 --> 00:16:39,795 And so that's a key one. 305 00:16:40,145 --> 00:16:45,315 Another key one is, and it's one of those things when I look back 306 00:16:45,465 --> 00:16:47,635 over the years, I kind of regret. 307 00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:55,370 Never tackling the problem of the name, title, product manager because the title 308 00:16:55,370 --> 00:16:58,939 product manager means so many different things to so many different people. 309 00:16:59,560 --> 00:17:03,620 Mostly because they're describing the project model companies. 310 00:17:04,079 --> 00:17:08,399 Or even worse, 'cause there is even worse, when you talk product 311 00:17:08,420 --> 00:17:09,579 owners, there's even worse. 312 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:10,659 Out there. 313 00:17:11,159 --> 00:17:14,300 So I always like, I don't wanna fight that battle. 314 00:17:14,579 --> 00:17:15,659 I don't care what it's called. 315 00:17:15,709 --> 00:17:17,339 Let's just call it a product manager. 316 00:17:17,609 --> 00:17:18,060 It's fine. 317 00:17:18,060 --> 00:17:19,780 It's just a different job definition. 318 00:17:20,520 --> 00:17:25,939 But the job definition is so different for the product manager on an empowered 319 00:17:25,939 --> 00:17:31,459 team in the product model than a project team or a feature team that 320 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,459 that's one that constantly get wrong. 321 00:17:34,459 --> 00:17:39,260 They get wrong because HR just wants to retitle people. 322 00:17:40,295 --> 00:17:43,065 It's so much easier to just retitle people, but it is 323 00:17:43,175 --> 00:17:45,425 much harder to upskill them. 324 00:17:45,485 --> 00:17:47,385 And these are very different skills. 325 00:17:48,005 --> 00:17:48,945 At its essence. 326 00:17:49,505 --> 00:17:54,545 A feature team product manager is much more project manager, which is important 327 00:17:54,725 --> 00:17:56,865 of course, but it's not this job. 328 00:17:57,185 --> 00:18:01,745 Trisha Price: Same, it's, it's funny you say that, Marty, because of my role at 329 00:18:01,875 --> 00:18:09,615 Pendo, I get to also go in and talk to product teams all over and, I was with 330 00:18:09,645 --> 00:18:16,395 a very large company last year, and they literally took their entire workforce and 331 00:18:16,395 --> 00:18:21,835 took everyone who had a title of business analyst and titled them Product Managers. 332 00:18:22,305 --> 00:18:23,475 Yeah, that was it. 333 00:18:23,475 --> 00:18:23,915 Classic. 334 00:18:24,024 --> 00:18:26,715 They didn't train them, they didn't see who had the right 335 00:18:26,715 --> 00:18:28,075 backgrounds and skillset sets. 336 00:18:28,105 --> 00:18:29,715 They didn't say, here's the difference in the job. 337 00:18:29,715 --> 00:18:30,315 They just said. 338 00:18:31,185 --> 00:18:33,745 Business analyst, not even product owner, not even project manager, 339 00:18:34,225 --> 00:18:35,945 business analyst to product manager. 340 00:18:36,095 --> 00:18:36,385 Marty Cagan: Yeah. 341 00:18:36,564 --> 00:18:38,064 So I see that it's a classic one. 342 00:18:38,585 --> 00:18:39,415 It's a classic one. 343 00:18:39,705 --> 00:18:42,585 And that's the, that's the, that's a big problem, obviously. 344 00:18:42,965 --> 00:18:47,105 Another big problem is the way they treat engineers. 345 00:18:47,365 --> 00:18:47,784 Mm-hmm. 346 00:18:48,125 --> 00:18:49,585 So many of them treat 'em as 347 00:18:50,495 --> 00:18:51,705 outsourceable people. 348 00:18:52,045 --> 00:18:52,465 Mm-hmm. 349 00:18:52,605 --> 00:18:55,825 And they literally are outsourced in a lot of these big companies. 350 00:18:56,125 --> 00:18:59,545 And we have to explain to them, no, in the product model, your 351 00:18:59,825 --> 00:19:01,505 engineers are front and center. 352 00:19:01,725 --> 00:19:04,825 In fact, they're the, they're the best source of innovation. 353 00:19:04,885 --> 00:19:08,745 If you care about outcomes, they need to be the ones coming up with the 354 00:19:08,745 --> 00:19:13,625 things that go on the roadmap, not your stakeholders, not your customers. 355 00:19:13,905 --> 00:19:17,145 It's a, again, a very different model, which is sort of what we're really 356 00:19:17,155 --> 00:19:21,785 describing now is probably the hardest thing for most of these companies is 357 00:19:21,815 --> 00:19:23,585 it's essentially a cultural change. 358 00:19:24,445 --> 00:19:28,825 So we are talking about things around culture, about who makes decisions, 359 00:19:29,005 --> 00:19:32,225 how do they make decisions, how do they make progress, where do 360 00:19:32,225 --> 00:19:34,875 ideas come from, that's different. 361 00:19:34,875 --> 00:19:42,545 And so, I've never been surprised at why it's so hard to transform. 362 00:19:43,375 --> 00:19:45,145 Because, I mean, these are big changes. 363 00:19:45,155 --> 00:19:46,185 These are not, they're big changes. 364 00:19:46,415 --> 00:19:51,795 Changes, but, but the good news is there are companies that manage to do it. 365 00:19:52,105 --> 00:19:52,395 Trisha Price: Yeah, 366 00:19:52,725 --> 00:19:53,075 there 367 00:19:53,075 --> 00:19:53,235 are. 368 00:19:53,235 --> 00:19:54,005 And do it well. 369 00:19:54,005 --> 00:19:59,115 And you're talking about you, you were talking about the change and a lot of the 370 00:19:59,115 --> 00:20:04,235 change you were talking about is sort of in the ideation and prioritization phase, 371 00:20:04,245 --> 00:20:10,115 which is obviously wildly different when you're prioritizing and empowered in 372 00:20:10,115 --> 00:20:15,235 support of a goal versus being told to go ship something and now you're breaking 373 00:20:15,295 --> 00:20:16,955 the problem down and trying to ship it. 374 00:20:17,630 --> 00:20:23,490 But I equally see the problem in terms of change on the backend. 375 00:20:23,590 --> 00:20:28,350 And what I mean on the backend is iterating, launching, 376 00:20:30,420 --> 00:20:34,490 constantly tweaking, experimenting, figuring out 377 00:20:34,590 --> 00:20:35,930 what's working and not working. 378 00:20:36,270 --> 00:20:42,730 And one of the problems I see is they have an idea, companies teams 379 00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:45,050 have an idea of the big goal, right? 380 00:20:45,160 --> 00:20:49,130 Like, I want to get revenue in this new product, right? 381 00:20:50,500 --> 00:20:58,240 But like, how do I break that down into something manageable and achievable 382 00:20:58,910 --> 00:21:04,360 this quarter, this month, and then prioritize against it is something I 383 00:21:04,360 --> 00:21:06,600 just see people sort of get frozen in. 384 00:21:07,930 --> 00:21:09,050 Marty Cagan: Do you see that, Marty? 385 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:09,610 Yeah. 386 00:21:09,700 --> 00:21:15,620 Well, to continue from your last question on all the things that have to be done 387 00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:21,070 right, a whole other big question is how do you decide what to work on? 388 00:21:21,710 --> 00:21:22,000 Yeah. 389 00:21:22,820 --> 00:21:26,320 And that's, that's usually framed as prioritization when 390 00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:27,560 you get down into the teams. 391 00:21:27,740 --> 00:21:30,840 But at the higher level, how do you decide what to invest in? 392 00:21:31,020 --> 00:21:32,640 How do you decide what you're gonna do? 393 00:21:33,870 --> 00:21:38,520 And, most companies in the project model are used to doing 394 00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:39,720 that with their stakeholders. 395 00:21:41,150 --> 00:21:45,850 And they kind of all sort of make a bunch of proposals for how much money they 396 00:21:45,850 --> 00:21:47,490 think things would get and all this stuff. 397 00:21:47,910 --> 00:21:48,530 The spreadsheet, 398 00:21:48,710 --> 00:21:51,210 Trisha Price: the best Marty, like the weighted spreadsheet, 399 00:21:51,270 --> 00:21:52,290 that's like the death. 400 00:21:52,360 --> 00:21:54,010 When I see that, I'm like, no. 401 00:21:54,470 --> 00:21:57,450 Oh no, you don't have a voting weighted spreadsheet. 402 00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:58,510 Yeah, please no. 403 00:21:59,270 --> 00:22:02,340 Marty Cagan: So that's what so many do in one form or another. 404 00:22:02,410 --> 00:22:04,090 I can't tell you how many I've seen. 405 00:22:04,670 --> 00:22:08,810 Now, of course, if you're in the, if you're using the product model. 406 00:22:09,835 --> 00:22:12,215 That's a very different way of working. 407 00:22:12,605 --> 00:22:16,415 Your job, of course, is, for the product leaders, is to make sure 408 00:22:16,415 --> 00:22:19,815 you're pursuing the most important opportunities and responding to the most 409 00:22:19,815 --> 00:22:26,925 serious threats, but more generally, instead of top down, roadmaps. 410 00:22:26,975 --> 00:22:34,495 Instead of that, what we're trying to do is in two big things, product vision. 411 00:22:35,445 --> 00:22:36,755 Which is, how are you going? 412 00:22:36,755 --> 00:22:39,795 Product vision is not about you, it's about your customers. 413 00:22:40,215 --> 00:22:43,395 How is it gonna make you the lives of your customers better? 414 00:22:43,395 --> 00:22:46,155 Because if you don't manage to do that, you're not gonna sell anything. 415 00:22:46,155 --> 00:22:48,475 You're not gonna, so everything, there are no outcomes. 416 00:22:48,695 --> 00:22:49,195 That's right. 417 00:22:49,335 --> 00:22:51,635 You derives from the product vision. 418 00:22:52,215 --> 00:22:55,555 And most companies, of course, don't do product vision, so it's only. 419 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,940 In my experience, it's really only the companies that are trying to 420 00:22:58,940 --> 00:23:02,020 do the product model that actually do a serious product vision. 421 00:23:02,360 --> 00:23:05,860 If a team company tells you, we do a vision for every team, it's like they 422 00:23:05,860 --> 00:23:06,659 don't even know what a vision is. 423 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:07,389 Right. 424 00:23:07,389 --> 00:23:08,669 That doesn't even make any sense. 425 00:23:09,290 --> 00:23:12,110 So a great product agent, at least they probably have a feature 426 00:23:12,179 --> 00:23:13,629 roadmap for each one of their teams. 427 00:23:14,030 --> 00:23:14,310 Absolutely. 428 00:23:14,310 --> 00:23:14,629 They do. 429 00:23:15,159 --> 00:23:15,510 Right? 430 00:23:15,610 --> 00:23:20,070 So when they do a real product vision, that's a, for our organization, 431 00:23:20,159 --> 00:23:23,429 maybe even for our entire company, this is what we're trying to do. 432 00:23:23,500 --> 00:23:28,389 It's gonna take somewhere between five, 10 years to do this product 433 00:23:28,389 --> 00:23:32,350 vision, but that tells us how we're gonna make our customers lives better. 434 00:23:32,350 --> 00:23:35,050 That's the first part, the product leaders have to do. 435 00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:39,570 The second part then is you can't just go away for five years and do this. 436 00:23:40,250 --> 00:23:40,530 I wish. 437 00:23:40,550 --> 00:23:42,090 We wish we could, but we can't. 438 00:23:42,510 --> 00:23:49,490 We have to actually pay the bills along the way, and that's the product strategy. 439 00:23:49,670 --> 00:23:54,530 The product strategy says, okay, we've got probably only order of 440 00:23:54,530 --> 00:23:58,050 five to seven years, it's gonna take us to make this vision a reality. 441 00:23:58,540 --> 00:24:01,945 We've got 20 quarters between now and then. 442 00:24:02,125 --> 00:24:07,425 Now we've gotta figure out what problems do we solve each quarter. 443 00:24:08,085 --> 00:24:08,504 Mm-hmm. 444 00:24:09,044 --> 00:24:11,824 And what we're trying to do there, like I said, is pay the bills 445 00:24:12,004 --> 00:24:13,705 and get us closer to the vision. 446 00:24:14,284 --> 00:24:17,465 The product leaders need to prioritize those critical 447 00:24:17,465 --> 00:24:18,985 problems to solve this quarter. 448 00:24:20,045 --> 00:24:21,695 That is prioritization. 449 00:24:22,645 --> 00:24:26,335 Once they've done that, now they have a set of problems to solve and 450 00:24:26,375 --> 00:24:30,615 a set of teams that are equipped to solve them, and that's what they do. 451 00:24:30,615 --> 00:24:33,095 They assign the problems to solve to the product teams. 452 00:24:33,125 --> 00:24:37,070 They discover a solution worth building and deliver that solution. 453 00:24:37,500 --> 00:24:40,270 It's not complicated or anything, but it's very different. 454 00:24:40,330 --> 00:24:43,750 The product model from how, the spreadsheets we were talking 455 00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:45,229 about, it's very different. 456 00:24:45,649 --> 00:24:49,469 And most importantly, it requires product leaders that are 457 00:24:49,469 --> 00:24:51,389 skilled in vision and strategy. 458 00:24:51,419 --> 00:24:56,310 This is referred to as the strategic context, like Netflix likes to say, 459 00:24:56,379 --> 00:24:58,949 lead with context, not with control. 460 00:24:59,060 --> 00:25:02,590 Because command and control down, this 461 00:25:02,590 --> 00:25:07,649 Trisha Price: is truly the opposite of command and control and requires a 462 00:25:07,649 --> 00:25:12,570 level of trust with your team that most people are pretty uncomfortable with. 463 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:13,050 Yeah. 464 00:25:13,969 --> 00:25:15,250 Marty Cagan: think you talk about that. 465 00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:15,850 Yeah. 466 00:25:15,850 --> 00:25:16,570 Yeah, we do. 467 00:25:16,570 --> 00:25:19,090 Because that's really, if you had to pick a single theme 468 00:25:19,570 --> 00:25:24,409 undercurrent for the whole successful transformation is probably trust. 469 00:25:25,389 --> 00:25:28,585 Because, and I don't mean trust, like somebody gets a blank check. 470 00:25:28,765 --> 00:25:28,985 No. 471 00:25:29,165 --> 00:25:34,465 It does mean that there's, instead of the leaders making all the decisions, 472 00:25:35,935 --> 00:25:39,785 even the ones that are really not in a good position to make, like 473 00:25:40,225 --> 00:25:44,065 enabling technology and the what this customer needs right here. 474 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:50,190 They are making strategic decisions about the most important problems to solve, but 475 00:25:50,190 --> 00:25:54,590 then the teams are making the decisions on the best way to solve those problems. 476 00:25:54,820 --> 00:25:55,110 Trisha Price: Yeah. 477 00:25:55,330 --> 00:25:59,150 Marty Cagan: And that though is still a, significant degree of trust. 478 00:25:59,690 --> 00:26:03,070 And one of the mistakes that a lot of companies make when they try 479 00:26:03,070 --> 00:26:09,590 to transform is that they think somehow a CEO of a billion or 480 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,230 very, large company is just gonna 481 00:26:12,900 --> 00:26:14,790 Give them that trust works. 482 00:26:15,050 --> 00:26:16,270 It doesn't work that way. 483 00:26:16,650 --> 00:26:19,470 And it, in fairness, it shouldn't work that way. 484 00:26:19,470 --> 00:26:19,990 Shouldn't I agree? 485 00:26:19,990 --> 00:26:22,990 What if that company just renamed all their business analysts to 486 00:26:22,990 --> 00:26:24,310 product managers, they're gonna fail. 487 00:26:24,410 --> 00:26:29,070 Any CEO that just trust them is, is getting what they deserve, right? 488 00:26:29,100 --> 00:26:29,390 Yeah. 489 00:26:29,690 --> 00:26:32,710 So, no, we have to earn that trust. 490 00:26:33,570 --> 00:26:37,710 And so the way we often frame a transformation is it's all about winning 491 00:26:37,730 --> 00:26:41,790 the hearts and minds of the leaders of the company and the way we do that. 492 00:26:43,710 --> 00:26:50,610 Is safe, small, low cost, low risk experiments, which it's 493 00:26:50,610 --> 00:26:53,330 really using the product model to move to the product model. 494 00:26:53,330 --> 00:26:53,730 Mm-hmm. 495 00:26:53,810 --> 00:26:57,650 In other words, don't make a big project to move to the product model where you 496 00:26:57,650 --> 00:27:02,450 have, you plan out a year of all this training and all this nonsense, instead 497 00:27:03,265 --> 00:27:04,645 we pick a pilot team. 498 00:27:04,755 --> 00:27:06,885 It's basically like an MVP Yeah. 499 00:27:06,905 --> 00:27:10,645 Of what this is gonna look like, and that pilot team is meant to 500 00:27:10,675 --> 00:27:15,165 show your organization and your leaders what good can look like. 501 00:27:19,745 --> 00:27:21,125 Trisha Price: You pick an outcome for them. 502 00:27:21,385 --> 00:27:21,605 Yes. 503 00:27:21,985 --> 00:27:25,125 And then you start doing modern product discovery. 504 00:27:25,585 --> 00:27:25,804 Yes. 505 00:27:26,034 --> 00:27:27,405 Then you show them 506 00:27:27,595 --> 00:27:28,445 Marty Cagan: experimenting. 507 00:27:29,115 --> 00:27:29,405 Yeah. 508 00:27:29,985 --> 00:27:35,854 Now once they see it works, especially a couple times, it's a different situation. 509 00:27:36,084 --> 00:27:39,564 Now for, lots of more teams want to move. 510 00:27:40,485 --> 00:27:42,575 It's that whole technology adoption curve. 511 00:27:42,585 --> 00:27:46,175 We're working through that and the company starts to feel like we 512 00:27:46,175 --> 00:27:47,695 should apply this to different areas. 513 00:27:47,925 --> 00:27:51,215 This is a good thing, but they know what it is. 514 00:27:51,395 --> 00:27:54,535 And by the way, they also, at that point, they know you can't just 515 00:27:54,735 --> 00:27:58,375 retitle a business analyst because they seem what good looks like. 516 00:27:59,605 --> 00:27:59,895 Yeah. 517 00:27:59,995 --> 00:28:06,455 So that's why it's so important to do these small, low cost, low risk pilot, 518 00:28:07,245 --> 00:28:08,935 show the company what success looks like. 519 00:28:09,820 --> 00:28:12,640 You are earning trust each time you do that. 520 00:28:13,300 --> 00:28:16,000 Trisha Price: So Marty, it sounds like, just the way we were talking 521 00:28:16,010 --> 00:28:21,360 about, you can't set a vision and wait five years to deliver when you're 522 00:28:21,360 --> 00:28:24,480 working with these companies that are moving to the product operating model. 523 00:28:25,670 --> 00:28:28,760 They can't wait five years to show progress and deliver 524 00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:30,490 against that model either. 525 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,180 So tell me like, how, how long does it take for these companies to transform? 526 00:28:36,280 --> 00:28:39,700 How long does it take for them to quickly start seeing wins 527 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,170 and, and start building moment 528 00:28:42,610 --> 00:28:42,900 Marty Cagan: Good. 529 00:28:43,010 --> 00:28:44,380 Well, there's two parts to that. 530 00:28:44,590 --> 00:28:48,740 Two answers to that . The first one is, how long does it take an entire 531 00:28:49,250 --> 00:28:52,210 business unit to change, for example. 532 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:56,755 And the honest answer to that is typically one to two years for a 533 00:28:56,915 --> 00:29:01,195 business unit, and which means it's one to three years or so for a whole big 534 00:29:01,195 --> 00:29:02,995 enterprise with multiple business units. 535 00:29:03,345 --> 00:29:07,875 However, the real question is how long does it take to see results? 536 00:29:07,875 --> 00:29:11,235 Because for the trust point, that's the real question. 537 00:29:11,575 --> 00:29:17,595 And that's usually a quarter, maybe two, because that's why what we do is 538 00:29:17,695 --> 00:29:20,995 if you try to change a whole company, like I said, it's gonna be years. 539 00:29:21,034 --> 00:29:23,074 Nobody's gonna give you that blank check. 540 00:29:23,895 --> 00:29:29,435 If you try to say, let's pick one product team in this business unit, that you've 541 00:29:29,435 --> 00:29:33,675 said is very important, let's give them a problem to solve that you believe you 542 00:29:33,675 --> 00:29:38,915 couldn't have solved this before, but is something that really is meaningful. 543 00:29:39,935 --> 00:29:44,344 And let's set them up the way we, best companies have 544 00:29:44,395 --> 00:29:45,554 sort of shown that you need. 545 00:29:46,655 --> 00:29:49,355 In other words where you don't have these competencies, you're gonna get 546 00:29:49,355 --> 00:29:52,555 these competencies, you're gonna coach these people, you're gonna show them 547 00:29:52,855 --> 00:29:58,515 how good team works, and then let's run that for a, a few weeks, few months. 548 00:29:58,585 --> 00:29:58,875 Yeah. 549 00:29:59,575 --> 00:30:05,895 Trisha Price: When, you talk about measures of success or outcomes, one 550 00:30:06,945 --> 00:30:11,535 thing I see people get tripped up on, on moving to this like, Hey, let's 551 00:30:11,535 --> 00:30:14,135 just try something and experiment is 552 00:30:14,965 --> 00:30:15,705 what's the measure? 553 00:30:15,845 --> 00:30:16,425 Is it revenue? 554 00:30:17,324 --> 00:30:23,985 And if they're in a sales led company or a company, even with a 555 00:30:23,985 --> 00:30:25,784 sales, large sales organization. 556 00:30:26,730 --> 00:30:29,070 How can I be accountable to revenue? 557 00:30:29,690 --> 00:30:32,150 because I'm not the one selling the product. 558 00:30:32,490 --> 00:30:37,870 So maybe give us a little bit of your opinion on is revenue the right metric? 559 00:30:37,900 --> 00:30:39,270 Does it depend on the company? 560 00:30:39,330 --> 00:30:43,310 And if it's not revenue, what are other good outcomes that product 561 00:30:43,310 --> 00:30:47,510 teams can begin to set as their north star and experiment to achieve? 562 00:30:48,740 --> 00:30:53,524 Marty Cagan: It's kind of a tricky one because, the higher order point is that 563 00:30:53,524 --> 00:30:58,725 it's not always revenue, that that is the right thing, but it is a business result. 564 00:30:59,465 --> 00:31:01,524 That's the higher order point a business result. 565 00:31:01,524 --> 00:31:04,445 I'll give you some real examples in a minute so this is not ambiguous. 566 00:31:05,155 --> 00:31:07,485 However, sometimes it is revenue. 567 00:31:08,340 --> 00:31:08,630 Yeah. 568 00:31:08,930 --> 00:31:12,150 And, and that, and sometimes it should be revenue. 569 00:31:12,380 --> 00:31:14,910 I'll give you an example of that in a minute too, where 570 00:31:14,910 --> 00:31:16,720 it's like that is the business. 571 00:31:17,070 --> 00:31:19,710 So, that's the result everybody cares about. 572 00:31:20,250 --> 00:31:23,870 So whenever you 'cause that same objection, you hear that all the time, 573 00:31:23,940 --> 00:31:25,190 it's like, well, we don't control. 574 00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:29,990 First of all, nobody controls everything except the CEO, right? 575 00:31:29,990 --> 00:31:30,190 Right. 576 00:31:30,190 --> 00:31:31,270 Nobody controls everything. 577 00:31:31,270 --> 00:31:32,630 So if you, unless you're willing to just. 578 00:31:33,225 --> 00:31:35,805 Push all the decisions to the CEO.. Yeah. 579 00:31:35,805 --> 00:31:36,835 You're gonna have I say the same. 580 00:31:37,095 --> 00:31:38,755 Trisha Price: How do you think the revenue team feels? 581 00:31:38,865 --> 00:31:39,155 Yeah. 582 00:31:39,155 --> 00:31:41,855 When they get a crappy product and they still have to make their quota. 583 00:31:41,875 --> 00:31:45,995 Marty Cagan: Well, well I explained because a lot of these product teams don't 584 00:31:45,995 --> 00:31:50,075 even know that salespeople are commission based and they are like, they're 585 00:31:50,255 --> 00:31:54,075 completely dependent on their paycheck goes whether that product is any good. 586 00:31:54,185 --> 00:31:54,475 Yeah. 587 00:31:54,475 --> 00:31:57,195 It's like how would you like to sign up for a quota when you 588 00:31:57,195 --> 00:31:58,595 can't even control the product? 589 00:31:59,125 --> 00:31:59,475 Right. 590 00:32:00,015 --> 00:32:00,235 So. 591 00:32:01,255 --> 00:32:05,875 And I was taught, I mean, this is one of the very first things I was taught, and 592 00:32:05,875 --> 00:32:11,635 this is why management by Objectives OKRs, are so powerful, is I was taught, look, 593 00:32:12,235 --> 00:32:16,915 a lot of times revenue is the issue and, the biggest driver on that is the product. 594 00:32:17,695 --> 00:32:23,264 So if the product is not selling, don't you think we need the product 595 00:32:23,264 --> 00:32:26,264 manager to get their ass out of the building and go sit with sales 596 00:32:26,284 --> 00:32:27,945 and figure out why they can't sell? 597 00:32:28,825 --> 00:32:31,784 I mean, like that's what I was literally, I was, it was more 598 00:32:32,105 --> 00:32:33,145 colorful language than that. 599 00:32:33,215 --> 00:32:34,345 That was explained to me. 600 00:32:34,345 --> 00:32:37,185 But I was like, and I'm like, you can't say it's not, you 601 00:32:37,185 --> 00:32:38,425 don't control the sales people. 602 00:32:38,425 --> 00:32:39,504 You don't control finance. 603 00:32:39,685 --> 00:32:42,185 You don't control marketing, but you control the biggest 604 00:32:42,185 --> 00:32:43,465 single factor of the product. 605 00:32:44,004 --> 00:32:47,145 And the whole idea of a cross-functional team is we should 606 00:32:47,145 --> 00:32:48,544 go figure out what it takes. 607 00:32:49,044 --> 00:32:50,264 Who else is gonna do that? 608 00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:53,500 So, so don't run. 609 00:32:53,700 --> 00:33:00,260 I tell people don't run from revenue as a key result if that's the right result. 610 00:33:00,730 --> 00:33:04,260 Just because you don't control salespeople, that's 611 00:33:04,260 --> 00:33:06,200 like a very lame excuse. 612 00:33:06,419 --> 00:33:11,340 and by the way, I've made so many friends and sales because they're, 613 00:33:11,340 --> 00:33:14,220 they love nothing more than a product person that understands. 614 00:33:15,145 --> 00:33:15,435 Yeah. 615 00:33:15,535 --> 00:33:16,595 Yes, for sure. 616 00:33:16,595 --> 00:33:20,275 And they also know there's nothing us product team can do more important 617 00:33:20,275 --> 00:33:21,875 than give them happy customers. 618 00:33:23,275 --> 00:33:25,605 It's all about happy referenceable customers. 619 00:33:25,665 --> 00:33:27,895 So this is not a bad thing. 620 00:33:27,895 --> 00:33:33,845 Now that said, one of the product coaches that we work with just published 621 00:33:33,845 --> 00:33:36,765 an article, and I was particularly interested in this one because it 622 00:33:36,765 --> 00:33:41,755 was a company that we did not do a transformation engagement with. 623 00:33:42,215 --> 00:33:45,995 So most of the successes I can point to are the ones my partners did 624 00:33:45,995 --> 00:33:49,355 transformation engagements with, because that's why they're my partners. 625 00:33:49,355 --> 00:33:50,865 They're the best in the world at this. 626 00:33:51,165 --> 00:33:57,035 However, the idea is that why can't you just read a book, like Transformed, and 627 00:33:57,035 --> 00:34:01,270 maybe get the help of a product coach in and do the same kind of success. 628 00:34:01,270 --> 00:34:03,740 The product coach is Gabby Bufrem. 629 00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:04,680 You may have heard her name. 630 00:34:04,790 --> 00:34:05,080 Yeah. 631 00:34:05,100 --> 00:34:05,440 Oh yeah. 632 00:34:05,910 --> 00:34:07,080 A terrific coach. 633 00:34:07,680 --> 00:34:11,080 I recommended Gabby to this company because she was one of the very 634 00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:16,270 few coaches coaches I knew that speaks Spanish and she's in Mexico. 635 00:34:16,970 --> 00:34:20,780 And anyway, so she shows up at this company in Mexico, it's like, 636 00:34:20,880 --> 00:34:26,365 40,000 employee company, some travel services company, and same thing, 637 00:34:26,435 --> 00:34:28,245 they had tried to transform for years. 638 00:34:28,265 --> 00:34:29,085 It was a disaster. 639 00:34:29,155 --> 00:34:33,710 They finally, it's like she's, she's like, you have to demonstrate that this works. 640 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,429 Let's pick a product team and let's show a real result. 641 00:34:36,860 --> 00:34:41,190 They picked a pilot team and in the first quarter they showed a 40% increase 642 00:34:41,190 --> 00:34:43,270 in conversion rate for their bookings. 643 00:34:43,739 --> 00:34:46,710 Like, and now for those that don't know, that's basically revenue. 644 00:34:46,860 --> 00:34:47,830 That is everything. 645 00:34:47,830 --> 00:34:49,749 That is revenue comes from that. 646 00:34:50,330 --> 00:34:50,539 Yes. 647 00:34:50,539 --> 00:34:53,230 And that's the kind of thing that, yeah. 648 00:34:53,900 --> 00:34:55,799 That's what the business needed to see. 649 00:34:56,259 --> 00:34:58,759 The power center in that company was the head of sales. 650 00:34:58,860 --> 00:34:59,440 No surprise. 651 00:34:59,549 --> 00:34:59,960 It's right. 652 00:34:59,960 --> 00:35:00,080 Yep. 653 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,560 That's what they sell bookings at a resorts. 654 00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:06,799 So, and it wasn't until he saw that this really worked, 655 00:35:06,910 --> 00:35:08,160 that anything really changed. 656 00:35:09,100 --> 00:35:11,520 So that, and they did that in a couple months. 657 00:35:12,350 --> 00:35:12,640 Yeah. 658 00:35:13,140 --> 00:35:13,759 So so's amazing. 659 00:35:13,759 --> 00:35:14,480 So that's what we do. 660 00:35:14,580 --> 00:35:16,560 That's, and that's a real result. 661 00:35:16,779 --> 00:35:20,080 Now did her team, did the product team have control over sales? 662 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:20,279 No. 663 00:35:20,924 --> 00:35:23,665 But did they go out to the resorts and actually test? 664 00:35:23,884 --> 00:35:24,105 Yes. 665 00:35:24,165 --> 00:35:25,065 That's what they did. 666 00:35:25,575 --> 00:35:25,865 Trisha Price: Yeah. 667 00:35:26,325 --> 00:35:26,985 That's amazing. 668 00:35:26,985 --> 00:35:29,145 That's a great story and super helpful. 669 00:35:29,424 --> 00:35:34,225 'cause I hear that a lot from my friends in product, from customers that I talk to. 670 00:35:34,615 --> 00:35:36,424 It's just, I'm not in control of revenue. 671 00:35:36,525 --> 00:35:39,185 I'm like, well, you kind of are. 672 00:35:39,285 --> 00:35:40,825 If you build a great product. 673 00:35:43,115 --> 00:35:47,839 Marty, earlier when you were talking about the transformation from project 674 00:35:48,020 --> 00:35:53,560 to product, you talked about needing at least CEO support because it 675 00:35:53,580 --> 00:35:58,479 is more than just a product and an engineering way of thinking. 676 00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:04,560 This is something personally I call whole product, which is 677 00:36:05,069 --> 00:36:10,380 instead of thinking about shipping product as engineering and product. 678 00:36:10,730 --> 00:36:12,700 It's, does my sales team know how to sell? 679 00:36:12,700 --> 00:36:20,780 It is the skew in my CPQ and, moving to this whole product mentality. 680 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:26,060 And, and for me, like I remember my early days of Pendo and I'm, I know 681 00:36:26,060 --> 00:36:28,180 we all have this bad story somewhere. 682 00:36:28,190 --> 00:36:28,890 We've worked. 683 00:36:29,140 --> 00:36:30,120 I came in. 684 00:36:30,740 --> 00:36:35,255 And I looked in Jira and it said something was shipped and I had 685 00:36:35,255 --> 00:36:38,815 seen release notes about it and I went into the product, 'cause I use 686 00:36:38,815 --> 00:36:40,215 our product all the time myself. 687 00:36:40,835 --> 00:36:44,935 And when I went in I couldn't find the feature to play with it and I, 688 00:36:44,955 --> 00:36:49,375 oh well that's because it's fine to flag and we've only rolled it out to 689 00:36:49,495 --> 00:36:53,975 so and so because we haven't actually taught sales and support, doesn't 690 00:36:53,975 --> 00:36:55,415 know how to support that feature yet. 691 00:36:55,435 --> 00:36:55,655 So. 692 00:36:56,545 --> 00:36:57,155 It's not done. 693 00:36:57,155 --> 00:36:58,435 And I'm like, well, then it's not done. 694 00:36:58,535 --> 00:37:01,195 And, but then I went to engineering and they were like, no, it's done. 695 00:37:01,195 --> 00:37:03,835 Look in Jira, it's done. 696 00:37:03,895 --> 00:37:05,215 how much of that. 697 00:37:05,935 --> 00:37:11,555 Is a part of this transformation in your coaching and move to outcomes for you? 698 00:37:12,984 --> 00:37:16,634 Marty Cagan: Well, partly we just need there, there's the model, 699 00:37:16,884 --> 00:37:20,794 which is really a set of principles, and then there's people executing. 700 00:37:21,500 --> 00:37:21,790 Yeah. 701 00:37:21,930 --> 00:37:24,990 And knowing how to do their job, you're of course class talking, 702 00:37:25,140 --> 00:37:26,959 classic product marketing. 703 00:37:27,339 --> 00:37:27,759 Right. 704 00:37:28,639 --> 00:37:32,110 so, and, and in a world of continuous deployment, it's normal if things 705 00:37:32,110 --> 00:37:33,870 are tested behind feature flags. 706 00:37:33,870 --> 00:37:34,029 Sure. 707 00:37:34,029 --> 00:37:36,415 And we make sure that's all good rigor. 708 00:37:37,155 --> 00:37:39,415 But like you said, that wasn't done. 709 00:37:40,265 --> 00:37:43,895 Then maybe there was a product marketing person that said, well, 710 00:37:43,895 --> 00:37:45,255 it's not done because it's not ready. 711 00:37:45,465 --> 00:37:49,375 We're on week two of a three week rollout, or whatever they might have had. 712 00:37:49,475 --> 00:37:52,175 But if there's no answer to that question, then it's just hanging. 713 00:37:52,175 --> 00:37:52,495 Right. 714 00:37:53,005 --> 00:37:53,295 Yeah. 715 00:37:53,595 --> 00:37:58,215 And, and this is a, a good question because that's really execution. 716 00:37:59,260 --> 00:38:00,850 There is not rocket science here. 717 00:38:01,010 --> 00:38:03,730 I mean, this normally happens every single day. 718 00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:08,130 So then there's a question, so who is responsible for this 719 00:38:08,380 --> 00:38:10,810 consistent, reliable execution? 720 00:38:11,020 --> 00:38:13,330 There are two ways companies address this. 721 00:38:13,710 --> 00:38:17,410 One of 'em I think is the beginning of the end, and the 722 00:38:17,410 --> 00:38:19,090 other is what good companies do. 723 00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:22,770 The first is they say, well, oh, we need a formal process. 724 00:38:23,780 --> 00:38:25,120 So we need a release process. 725 00:38:25,900 --> 00:38:29,480 And so clearly the product marketing person didn't follow the release 726 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:35,280 process and if they would've only, checked their whatever check 727 00:38:35,460 --> 00:38:35,680 Trisha Price: box. 728 00:38:35,790 --> 00:38:36,080 Yeah. 729 00:38:36,140 --> 00:38:40,520 On template four A in the file, 730 00:38:40,779 --> 00:38:43,000 Marty Cagan: Then of course the product marketing person said that 731 00:38:43,160 --> 00:38:44,440 this is a different kind of thing. 732 00:38:44,460 --> 00:38:46,320 The template's not for that, blah, blah, blah. 733 00:38:46,450 --> 00:38:48,020 And, and so processes. 734 00:38:48,790 --> 00:38:53,580 I, unfortunately, it's true that processes in big companies, especially used as a 735 00:38:53,580 --> 00:38:58,859 substitute for thinking, because what you did is just common sense, right? 736 00:38:58,859 --> 00:39:01,339 You came in and said, where is this thing I, I am supposed 737 00:39:01,339 --> 00:39:02,259 to be able to play with it. 738 00:39:02,259 --> 00:39:02,740 It's not here. 739 00:39:02,740 --> 00:39:03,339 What's going on? 740 00:39:04,279 --> 00:39:04,580 All right. 741 00:39:05,240 --> 00:39:08,859 The real, the second approach is how do you ins, how do you 742 00:39:08,859 --> 00:39:10,900 ensure consistent execution? 743 00:39:11,520 --> 00:39:16,100 And this comes from constant weekly coaching of your people. 744 00:39:17,430 --> 00:39:21,090 So, for example, in that scenario, and I've been in exactly your scenario 745 00:39:21,090 --> 00:39:22,690 there, I mean, that's not that unusual. 746 00:39:23,050 --> 00:39:23,090 Everyone, 747 00:39:24,010 --> 00:39:24,610 Trisha Price: everyone has at 748 00:39:25,980 --> 00:39:29,945 Marty Cagan: Who is in this case, who's the product marketing person? 749 00:39:30,185 --> 00:39:33,225 I probably would've said, no, let me talk to the product manager first. 750 00:39:33,805 --> 00:39:37,205 And I would've said, all right, well, do you consider this done? 751 00:39:37,314 --> 00:39:39,985 Maybe they say yes, but I said, but I can't see it, so let's 752 00:39:39,985 --> 00:39:41,105 agree it's not done right. 753 00:39:41,525 --> 00:39:45,904 So then the question is, all right, so, so why not, let's, let's figure this out. 754 00:39:46,365 --> 00:39:50,424 And then we may realize either the product manager didn't, do something they should 755 00:39:50,424 --> 00:39:51,945 have, or product marketing shouldn't have. 756 00:39:52,165 --> 00:39:54,105 But the point is, somebody needs some coaching here. 757 00:39:55,779 --> 00:39:58,120 And that's what we're doing one-on-one coaching. 758 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:00,560 We're helping people get better at their job. 759 00:40:01,299 --> 00:40:06,640 And what's special I think about product is that, it's so tempting 760 00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:10,680 to write up something as a process, but everything we build is different. 761 00:40:10,779 --> 00:40:13,640 The risks are different, the scenarios different. 762 00:40:14,140 --> 00:40:18,120 The data is different, and this is only becoming more true when you 763 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:20,759 build a feature on a foundation model. 764 00:40:21,240 --> 00:40:23,819 So this is, even more of the case. 765 00:40:23,845 --> 00:40:28,665 So the point is what we wanna do is help people get better at their job. 766 00:40:29,995 --> 00:40:34,175 And there's always areas people can get better and better, and then they of 767 00:40:34,175 --> 00:40:37,535 course become the ones coaching other people on how to be better at their job. 768 00:40:38,075 --> 00:40:43,975 So the real key to scalability that I believe in was taught and is, is coaching. 769 00:40:45,165 --> 00:40:45,605 Trisha Price: I love that. 770 00:40:46,155 --> 00:40:51,725 Earlier you mentioned, and I'm, I'm curious for, for my own purpose too, that 771 00:40:52,705 --> 00:40:57,915 product managers are not project managers, but project managers are still necessary. 772 00:40:59,275 --> 00:41:03,315 Where do you think that fits in, like when you talk about good execution? 773 00:41:03,315 --> 00:41:08,225 If you have technically, if you have all the right accountable 774 00:41:08,225 --> 00:41:12,065 people who have the right coaching and are communicating regularly. 775 00:41:13,410 --> 00:41:14,830 Do you need a project manager? 776 00:41:15,570 --> 00:41:19,030 But in reality, most of these organizations that you and I are 777 00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:22,550 talking about are fairly complex and large, and it's not that simple. 778 00:41:22,610 --> 00:41:25,430 And they would spend their days chasing things if someone 779 00:41:25,490 --> 00:41:26,430 wasn't there to help them. 780 00:41:26,610 --> 00:41:28,270 So tell me your philosophy on that. 781 00:41:28,780 --> 00:41:32,390 Marty Cagan: Yeah, and this is pretty common, what I'm about to say in so many 782 00:41:32,670 --> 00:41:35,779 companies is there is a crossover point. 783 00:41:36,755 --> 00:41:39,735 At most startups honestly don't need project managers. 784 00:41:39,805 --> 00:41:43,015 They don't if, if you've got less than a handful of teams, there 785 00:41:43,015 --> 00:41:47,735 are so few interdependencies, and the easiest way to see this is 786 00:41:47,735 --> 00:41:49,895 impediments and just dependencies. 787 00:41:50,924 --> 00:41:55,180 But at a certain point it's usually around a half a dozen product teams, 788 00:41:55,960 --> 00:42:00,220 the number of dependencies, the number of impediments becomes such that 789 00:42:00,510 --> 00:42:02,220 could the engineering manager do it? 790 00:42:02,220 --> 00:42:03,620 Could the product manager do it? 791 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:03,980 Of course. 792 00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,740 But is that their best use of their time? 793 00:42:06,980 --> 00:42:11,140 And are they able, because one model is - some companies say, well, we 794 00:42:11,140 --> 00:42:14,140 don't wanna hire project managers 'cause Agile doesn't like them. 795 00:42:14,720 --> 00:42:17,680 So what we're gonna do is we're gonna, just make our product 796 00:42:17,700 --> 00:42:19,580 managers work 60 hours a week. 797 00:42:20,490 --> 00:42:23,030 So that's one way, but I, that's okay. 798 00:42:23,350 --> 00:42:26,630 I don't actually think, 'cause what happens even to those project managers 799 00:42:26,630 --> 00:42:29,950 that are willing to work that long is then they're forced to choose between 800 00:42:29,950 --> 00:42:31,750 urgent and important every day. 801 00:42:32,170 --> 00:42:35,070 And they choose, they can't help but choose urgent most of the time. 802 00:42:35,070 --> 00:42:36,270 And that's project management. 803 00:42:36,910 --> 00:42:38,810 And then they don't do the product management. 804 00:42:39,230 --> 00:42:43,010 So normally I am for anything but a small startup. 805 00:42:43,510 --> 00:42:45,450 I'm a big advocate for project managers. 806 00:42:45,790 --> 00:42:50,450 Now there are program manager type project managers, product project 807 00:42:50,450 --> 00:42:51,930 managers and delivery managers. 808 00:42:51,930 --> 00:42:53,690 They're all project managers of a flavor. 809 00:42:54,350 --> 00:42:57,730 We like the kind that are more service based than the kind that 810 00:42:57,730 --> 00:43:01,370 are top down program control types. 811 00:43:01,910 --> 00:43:02,130 But 812 00:43:03,765 --> 00:43:07,195 Every great product model company I know has project managers. 813 00:43:07,265 --> 00:43:08,235 It's nothing wrong with that. 814 00:43:08,455 --> 00:43:10,955 The key is they're not the product manager. 815 00:43:11,625 --> 00:43:12,635 Trisha Price: Yeah, yeah. 816 00:43:12,935 --> 00:43:16,195 And the key is they're not just checking check boxes because 817 00:43:16,195 --> 00:43:17,795 there's a process to say, right. 818 00:43:17,795 --> 00:43:21,315 They deeply understand and are aligned in the outcome you're trying to 819 00:43:21,325 --> 00:43:22,955 drive, and they're a part of the team. 820 00:43:24,085 --> 00:43:24,375 Marty Cagan: Yeah, 821 00:43:24,755 --> 00:43:25,654 Trisha Price: pretty critical. 822 00:43:26,245 --> 00:43:32,375 Well, Marty, I have one final question for you, before we finish up today, and 823 00:43:32,525 --> 00:43:38,015 just coming back to hard calls, we've talked about, making hard decisions and 824 00:43:38,015 --> 00:43:41,495 prioritization and empowering your teams. 825 00:43:41,995 --> 00:43:45,095 And we've talked about driving towards an outcome. 826 00:43:45,515 --> 00:43:49,895 But for you, when you're coaching and looking at some of these great product 827 00:43:49,895 --> 00:43:51,535 teams and the best product teams around, 828 00:43:52,380 --> 00:44:00,240 How do you think about that fine line between gut instincts, taste, and 829 00:44:01,150 --> 00:44:06,160 true data-driven decisions that need to be made to support hard calls? 830 00:44:06,630 --> 00:44:12,799 Marty Cagan: Yeah, no, it's actually a great topic, which is so I 831 00:44:12,799 --> 00:44:17,120 don't really even believe in the whole concept of gut decisions. 832 00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,040 I think that's just a phrase we use to represent 833 00:44:21,035 --> 00:44:27,065 experience and, and that we, the term a number of people use, Shreyas Doshi is 834 00:44:27,065 --> 00:44:31,435 the one who finally kind of convinced me to adopt the term product sense. 835 00:44:31,985 --> 00:44:35,345 The reason I didn't use it originally was because it sounded a lot 836 00:44:35,345 --> 00:44:36,545 like something you're born with. 837 00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:38,900 But you're not born with it. 838 00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:40,900 You, you learn it, you develop it. 839 00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,540 So we had talked about coaching a minute ago. 840 00:44:43,799 --> 00:44:47,740 The main goal of coaching is to develop good product sense in your 841 00:44:47,740 --> 00:44:49,900 product people, good product sense. 842 00:44:50,569 --> 00:44:53,940 They understand the customers, they understand the data, they understand 843 00:44:53,940 --> 00:44:57,220 the business, they understand the constraints, they understand the industry. 844 00:44:57,250 --> 00:44:58,339 This is product sense. 845 00:44:58,850 --> 00:45:00,819 This is what helps you make good decisions. 846 00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,200 Now, even when you have great product sense, sometimes you're gonna want 847 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:06,320 enough data that you know this is right. 848 00:45:06,320 --> 00:45:08,585 Yeah, sometimes we even want proof. 849 00:45:08,775 --> 00:45:13,705 Sometimes we just want evidence, but you have enough product sense to know what 850 00:45:13,705 --> 00:45:15,865 you need for each of those decisions. 851 00:45:16,175 --> 00:45:17,465 Some decisions are minor. 852 00:45:17,525 --> 00:45:18,185 You can reverse. 853 00:45:18,285 --> 00:45:20,305 You can correct a mistake in a few hours. 854 00:45:20,950 --> 00:45:21,760 With a hot fix. 855 00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:22,440 Yeah. 856 00:45:22,700 --> 00:45:25,680 In other decisions, they're like, oh my God, we're gonna be sued. 857 00:45:25,970 --> 00:45:26,320 Right. 858 00:45:26,460 --> 00:45:29,640 Or kids could be harmed or the environment could be harmed. 859 00:45:29,660 --> 00:45:31,320 So really bad consequence. 860 00:45:31,940 --> 00:45:34,320 So those are things you're not gonna take lightly. 861 00:45:34,460 --> 00:45:34,880 Mm-hmm. 862 00:45:34,980 --> 00:45:39,280 So this is the kind of stuff we coach them on, and this is really product sense. 863 00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:39,560 Yeah. 864 00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:40,280 And I explain. 865 00:45:41,095 --> 00:45:42,754 For a lot of the coaching I do. 866 00:45:42,754 --> 00:45:43,555 That's what I'm doing. 867 00:45:43,774 --> 00:45:47,794 I'm, I'm kind of helping them understand what is the right level of 868 00:45:47,805 --> 00:45:50,075 rigor and analysis for this decision. 869 00:45:50,464 --> 00:45:53,075 They need to make the decision, but they need to make sure 870 00:45:53,075 --> 00:45:54,435 they've got the right input. 871 00:45:54,625 --> 00:45:59,275 They also need to understand some of those stakeholders have a vote. 872 00:46:00,105 --> 00:46:02,355 Some of them just have opinions, right? 873 00:46:02,865 --> 00:46:05,275 Some of them, it's not a democracy. 874 00:46:05,545 --> 00:46:07,715 They can say no, and you can't ship anything. 875 00:46:07,895 --> 00:46:11,795 So you need to understand the difference and you need to make sure that you 876 00:46:11,795 --> 00:46:16,995 understand their constraints and their concerns so that we product is solving for 877 00:46:16,995 --> 00:46:19,395 the customer and solving for the business. 878 00:46:20,055 --> 00:46:22,515 So this is the kind of thing we're developing in people. 879 00:46:23,055 --> 00:46:26,835 And when you meet a great product person they typically have great 880 00:46:26,835 --> 00:46:29,315 product sets which they have earned. 881 00:46:29,825 --> 00:46:30,115 Yeah. 882 00:46:30,255 --> 00:46:31,275 And that's, it's not 883 00:46:31,275 --> 00:46:32,515 Trisha Price: because they're just smart. 884 00:46:32,795 --> 00:46:36,195 I mean, they might be, and it's not because they were born that way. 885 00:46:36,665 --> 00:46:41,115 It's, it's the part you kicked off today's episode with, which 886 00:46:41,115 --> 00:46:43,155 is learning from the mistakes. 887 00:46:44,135 --> 00:46:47,385 When we made a hard call that didn't work well, that backfired. 888 00:46:47,695 --> 00:46:51,625 It's learning from the wins, it's watching other people who have 889 00:46:51,625 --> 00:46:53,505 coached us and invested in us. 890 00:46:54,235 --> 00:46:56,585 It is something that we just earn over time. 891 00:46:56,585 --> 00:46:59,425 and I think for some people it comes more naturally than others. 892 00:46:59,525 --> 00:47:02,465 And it also probably depends where we've had the good fortune. 893 00:47:03,405 --> 00:47:07,985 Of being able to spend time in, were we empowered and were we able to learn 894 00:47:08,485 --> 00:47:12,025 at the micro level before we were forced to make the macro decisions too? 895 00:47:12,335 --> 00:47:12,625 Marty Cagan: Yeah. 896 00:47:12,735 --> 00:47:17,825 Such a big, like I know, I'm so grateful every day I started as a 897 00:47:17,825 --> 00:47:21,705 product with somebody who was coaching me and he told me his job was within 898 00:47:21,705 --> 00:47:23,705 three months to get me to competence. 899 00:47:24,205 --> 00:47:26,865 And that was a lot of work, but it was doable. 900 00:47:26,945 --> 00:47:29,305 I mean, if somebody's there to guide you. 901 00:47:30,745 --> 00:47:33,795 It's amazing how fast you can get to where you need to be. 902 00:47:34,145 --> 00:47:37,435 So, you've gotta put in the work, you've gotta talk to customers, 903 00:47:37,435 --> 00:47:38,755 you gotta spend time with the data. 904 00:47:38,855 --> 00:47:40,755 But this is what product people do. 905 00:47:40,825 --> 00:47:42,235 It's absolutely doable. 906 00:47:42,945 --> 00:47:49,865 What I think is really interesting going forward is, that's kind of 907 00:47:50,884 --> 00:47:52,815 what's left with product management. 908 00:47:53,950 --> 00:47:58,240 With gen AI and the tools, the, those other things are, 909 00:47:59,300 --> 00:48:00,800 Trisha Price: the busy work is gone. 910 00:48:00,870 --> 00:48:01,160 Marty Cagan: Yeah. 911 00:48:01,380 --> 00:48:03,960 Trisha Price: Now you've gotta have product sense and make decisions 912 00:48:04,020 --> 00:48:05,320 and be accountable to outcomes. 913 00:48:05,460 --> 00:48:06,000 Marty Cagan: That's right. 914 00:48:06,220 --> 00:48:08,080 Trisha Price: Now you gotta spend time with customers, right? 915 00:48:08,780 --> 00:48:09,280 That's right. 916 00:48:09,630 --> 00:48:10,280 It's exciting. 917 00:48:10,350 --> 00:48:11,280 It's an exciting time. 918 00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:17,040 I think personally, it's the best time ever to become a product manager if you're 919 00:48:17,040 --> 00:48:22,040 working in the right organization because a lot of the more operational aspects. 920 00:48:22,990 --> 00:48:26,330 Are gonna be automated or already automated for us, and now we can spend 921 00:48:26,330 --> 00:48:29,370 our time thinking and driving outcomes. 922 00:48:29,720 --> 00:48:30,210 Exactly. 923 00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,259 Well Marty, thank you so much for joining us today. 924 00:48:34,540 --> 00:48:37,730 I know our listeners appreciate your advice. 925 00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:42,270 A reminder for everybody if you like what you heard from Marty, 926 00:48:42,290 --> 00:48:43,550 but wanna learn a lot more. 927 00:48:43,840 --> 00:48:47,470 Marty has three great books out there, that you can read and 928 00:48:47,470 --> 00:48:48,870 learn and get a lot more detail. 929 00:48:48,970 --> 00:48:52,509 Or you can obviously engage with, Silicon Valley Product Group as well. 930 00:48:52,570 --> 00:48:53,310 So thank you, Marty. 931 00:48:54,060 --> 00:48:55,710 Well, thanks for inviting me, Trisha. 932 00:48:55,710 --> 00:48:56,710 I enjoyed the conversation. 933 00:48:57,290 --> 00:48:57,710 Me too. 934 00:48:58,759 --> 00:49:02,470 Thank you for listening to Hard Calls, the product podcast, where 935 00:49:02,470 --> 00:49:05,430 we share best practices and all the things you need to succeed. 936 00:49:06,265 --> 00:49:09,765 If you enjoyed the show today, share with your friends and come back for more.