[00:00:00] Dr. Taz: Before we get into today's topic, I just wanna say thank you to everyone who's been [00:00:05] listening and reaching out. Your dms mean the world. They tell me what's helping, [00:00:10] what's confusing, and what's next for you. So if you haven't yet, come connect with me on [00:00:15] Instagram at Dr. Taz md. I'd love to hear your story and what brought you to Whole [00:00:20] Plus.
[00:00:20] Dr. Taz: Now, let's dive in.
[00:00:21] Dr. Jenn Simmons: When you look at the Swedish trial, 600,000 [00:00:25] women, half of them screen with mammogram, half of them don't. The same number of women die of [00:00:30] breast cancer in both groups. The only difference is the women [00:00:35] who screen with mammogram have 20 to [00:00:40] 30% more cancers in that group. So they're being diagnosed with more [00:00:45] cancers, but they're not dying of breast cancer anymore than the [00:00:50] women who aren't screening.
[00:00:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: When we do autopsy studies, not on women that [00:00:55] died of breast cancer, but on women that died of. Suicide, [00:01:00] car accidents, overdoses. Mm-hmm. Do you know that 20% of them will have [00:01:05] evidence on pathology? On histology of breast cancer? No. [00:01:10] 20%? No. Yes.
[00:01:11] Dr. Taz: We didn't talk about that last time. No. Are you serious?
[00:01:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. [00:01:15]
[00:01:15] Dr. Taz: Some of the most powerful conversations on this podcast are the ones that don't end when the [00:01:20] camera stop rolling.
[00:01:21] Dr. Taz: After our first episode together, I heard from so many of you women [00:01:25] who finally felt seen, who began questioning old narratives about screening and [00:01:30] who wanted to know what to do next. That's why I'm so grateful to welcome back Dr. Jenn [00:01:35] Simmons to the show for part two of this powerful and yes, controversial [00:01:40] conversation.
[00:01:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Our bodies. Are constantly making cancer cells. It's just a [00:01:45] reality of what happens when you constantly turn over cells like Michael Keaton [00:01:50] in carbon copy. Right? You remember that movie? Like,
[00:01:52] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:01:52] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Some of them are gonna be number three,
[00:01:54] Dr. Taz: right? Okay.
[00:01:54] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:01:55] Right.
[00:01:55] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:01:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like some of them are just not gonna work out well.
[00:01:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: A healthy body with an intact [00:02:00] immune system is going to be able to take care of that, to contain it, to reverse it.
[00:02:04] Dr. Taz: [00:02:05] For those of us joining us for the first time, Dr. Jenn Simmons is an integrative oncologist, [00:02:10] a breast surgeon, and author and founder of Real Health md. She was [00:02:15] Philadelphia's first fellowship trained breast surgeon and spent nearly two decades [00:02:20] leading one of the region's top breast programs.
[00:02:23] Dr. Taz: After facing her own health [00:02:25] crisis, she transitioned from conventional surgery to pioneer a new integrative [00:02:30] approach, one that merges science, functional medicine, and lifestyle [00:02:35] medicine to help women truly heal. In this episode, we'll continue the conversation, taking your [00:02:40] questions, exploring the latest research, and asking what real breast [00:02:45] healthcare looks like today.
[00:02:46] Dr. Taz: Please join me in welcoming back Dr. Jenn Simmons. [00:02:50] Dr. Jen, hi. I am so happy to have you back. Thank you. So for those of who don't [00:02:55] know, this is like a part two for us. We did an episode, I think a couple months ago. Mm-hmm. [00:03:00] And that episode went. Crazy. Absolutely crazy. I have some of the questions from that [00:03:05] episode that I actually wanna ask you, but I think some of what really touched a nerve [00:03:10] we need to revisit, and I wanna almost go deeper, if that makes sense.
[00:03:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Because [00:03:15] we talked about mammograms and we talked about whether they really are the right tool [00:03:20] for breast health and for screening and for cancer prevention and all of these different things that we've [00:03:25] been kind of brainwashed and led to believe over the years. We talked about, you know, [00:03:30] some of the training that we received as you know, medical students and residents, [00:03:35] and the disconnect of that training from basic things like [00:03:40] inflammation and diet and you know, the role of lifestyle and emotions and all these different things.
[00:03:44] Dr. Taz: [00:03:45] When we touched on a lot of that in that first episode. But what happened [00:03:50] after the episode was a barrage of questions [00:03:55] that I didn't really feel to be a hundred percent honest, equipped to answer. And that's why I [00:04:00] wanted to bring you back because I wanted my audience and my community to [00:04:05] hear from you and for you to also maybe go deeper in some of these [00:04:10] statements that we've been making over the last few months as we're really trying to like push and push [00:04:15] people forward.
[00:04:16] Dr. Taz: So let's start with first just kind of laying a foundation [00:04:20] and laying some groundwork you, and we're gonna do this again guys, and I don't want you to roll your [00:04:25] eyes or change the channel, but this is really important and we're both very passionate about it. But you [00:04:30] very clearly stated that you do not think mammograms are the [00:04:35] tool that we need to be using to screen ourselves when it comes to [00:04:40] breast cancer and breast cancer prevention.
[00:04:41] Dr. Taz: Can you go back to that statement? Yeah. For just a second.
[00:04:44] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. [00:04:45] So. It comes down to this. This has become [00:04:50] another example of virtue signaling.
[00:04:54] Dr. Taz: Virtue [00:04:55] signaling.
[00:04:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:04:56] Dr. Taz: Okay. You're gonna have to explain that too.
[00:04:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, absolutely. [00:05:00] So we decided in the 1970s [00:05:05] that mammogram was the right thing to do. Right. It's the [00:05:10] morally right thing to do.
[00:05:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: We should screen for breast cancer, catch it early, [00:05:15] and if we catch it early, we will save lives and save breasts.
[00:05:19] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. [00:05:20]
[00:05:20] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And it's a lovely theory and it does make you feel [00:05:25] virtuous if in fact, that's what it does. Right. It does make it [00:05:30] seem as if you're doing something really good, being
[00:05:33] Dr. Taz: proactive.
[00:05:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:05:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? Yes. Yeah. [00:05:35] So you feel good about it. The system feels good about it. Like it all makes [00:05:40] perfect sense. Only it's not true. It was something [00:05:45] that was sold to us. It was a brilliant, wonderful heart [00:05:50] string wrenching campaign.
[00:05:52] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:05:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But mammograms don't [00:05:55] save lives and they don't save breasts. And we have known this since the late [00:06:00] 1970s.
[00:06:01] Dr. Taz: So when did mammograms enter the scene? What were we doing before? [00:06:05]
[00:06:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Before we weren't really screening for breast cancer, so we
[00:06:08] Dr. Taz: weren't doing anything.
[00:06:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:06:09] Dr. Taz: Okay. So [00:06:10] this seemed like a
[00:06:10] Dr. Jenn Simmons: level up maybe. I mean, there were, maybe there were physical examinations. Right. But mammograms [00:06:15] entered the scene in the late 1960s and there is, [00:06:20] um, an English physician named Dr.
[00:06:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Michael Baum. Mm-hmm. [00:06:25] Uh, he's a surgeon and he actually. Was the [00:06:30] founder of the Mammographic screening program, and it was based on a study in the [00:06:35] late 1960s, the early 1970s, where it was an invitation to [00:06:40] screen study. And so already that has some bias [00:06:45] because who are you inviting to screen? Probably the more healthy people.[00:06:50]
[00:06:50] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And when you do a study based on invitation to screen mm-hmm. The study [00:06:55] participants are those that show up. So it's not, it's like the
[00:06:59] Dr. Taz: [00:07:00] surveys, right?
[00:07:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:07:01] Dr. Taz: So Right. Only certain people are gonna show up when you do a survey.
[00:07:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. [00:07:05] So when you compare the people invited to screen and those that show up to [00:07:10] the general population, already, there's a significant bias there.[00:07:15]
[00:07:15] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:07:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So already it's going to look like mammogram does something that it doesn't do. [00:07:20] But beyond that, what happened with that [00:07:25] study is that they found that. When you look at [00:07:30] 1000 women over 10 years mm-hmm. If you [00:07:35] screen with mammogram, four out of that 1000 will die of [00:07:40] breast cancer. If you don't screen with mammogram, five out of that 10 thou, uh, [00:07:45] 1000 will die of breast cancer.
[00:07:47] Dr. Taz: Okay. So that's the part that everyone like started [00:07:50] to really, you know, get muffled with, so to speak. I can't think of a better word. [00:07:55] So, four, die without [00:08:00] screening and five, excuse me.
[00:08:02] Dr. Jenn Simmons: No, four with screening.
[00:08:04] Dr. Taz: Okay. [00:08:05] Five without. Okay, so that's
[00:08:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: very, so five is 20% more [00:08:10] than four. And so the headline was [00:08:15] mammogram reduces the risk of dying of breast cancer by [00:08:20] 20%.
[00:08:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And that is what we built. [00:08:25] Our entire worldwide mammographic [00:08:30] screening programs on
[00:08:32] Dr. Taz: that study. So they weren't, they didn't [00:08:35] recognize this in the beginning. They did. And so why, why [00:08:40] did we like sort of because die on that sword? Because
[00:08:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: everyone, [00:08:45] because everyone responded to the headline. Didn't look any [00:08:50] further into the study and it was really good for [00:08:55] everyone.
[00:08:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm. Because suddenly when you, when you start to [00:09:00] screen the population, what you really do is [00:09:05] diagnose a bunch of, I wanna say quote unquote, good cancers. Mm. [00:09:10] Cancers that would have never affected anyone in [00:09:15] their lifetime, would've never become clinically relevant. But because we [00:09:20] can see them microscopically, give them a diagnosis, treat them, [00:09:25] and then call them cured.
[00:09:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:09:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's like throwing [00:09:30] someone in front of a train, pulling them back and saying, I saved your life. [00:09:35]
[00:09:36] Dr. Taz: Okay. So you, you said so much right there. So, good cancer. Come on. Is [00:09:40] there any such thing as good cancer?
[00:09:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Well, the thing is, when we look at autopsy [00:09:45] studies. I do wanna get back to that original study.
[00:09:49] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And Dr. [00:09:50] Michael Baum. Yes. And we
[00:09:50] Dr. Taz: will,
[00:09:50] Dr. Jenn Simmons: because it is his biggest regret in his life that he started [00:09:55] the Mammographic screening program. And he says that, um, but when we [00:10:00] do autopsy studies, not on women that died of breast cancer, but on [00:10:05] women that died of suicide, car accidents, [00:10:10] overdoses, and we do serial sections through the breast.
Mm-hmm.
[00:10:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Do you know that [00:10:15] 20% of them will have evidence, like on pathology? On [00:10:20] histology of breast cancer? No. 20%?
[00:10:23] Dr. Taz: No.
[00:10:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:10:24] Dr. Taz: We didn't talk about that [00:10:25] last time. No. Yes. Are you serious?
[00:10:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:10:27] Dr. Taz: What kind of breast cancer?
[00:10:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I mean, a [00:10:30] lot of it's gonna be DCIS or ductal carcinoma inside too, but it's not exclusively [00:10:35] DCIS.
[00:10:35] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. And. What we have [00:10:40] to realize is that our bodies are constantly making [00:10:45] cancer cells. It's just a reality of what happens when you, when you [00:10:50] constantly turn over cells, like some of them are gonna be like, um, Michael [00:10:55] Keaton in carbon copy. Right? You remember that movie? Like, yes, I do.
[00:10:57] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:10:58] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Some of them are gonna be number three.[00:11:00]
[00:11:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? Okay.
[00:11:00] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:11:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like some of them are just not gonna work out well. But a body, [00:11:05] a healthy body with an intact immune system is going to be able to take care of [00:11:10] that, to contain it, to reverse it. Mm-hmm. And you don't need the medical [00:11:15] system involved in doing that. Our bodies are very intelligent. They can take care of it.
[00:11:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:11:20] not everything that on a microscopic level is actually [00:11:25] going to develop into disease. But if you use a really [00:11:30] unsophisticated tool like mammogram, right. Then you are going to find [00:11:35] these things in their infancy and you have no way of determining [00:11:40] because there's no kind of functional aspect of that [00:11:45] test.
[00:11:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's either, uh, yes, this is normal, [00:11:50] no, this is abnormal. And they go on to all the rest of the stuff. [00:11:55] So we are picking up these cancers or these [00:12:00] changes in their infancy. Mm-hmm. And we're giving them a [00:12:05] diagnosis even though the natural history of it is that it pro it would not [00:12:10] have progressed. And we know this from very, very large scale studies.
[00:12:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So when you [00:12:15] look at the Swedish trial trial, 600,000 women. [00:12:20] Half of them screen with mammogram, half of them don't. The same number of women die of breast [00:12:25] cancer in both groups. But the only difference is the women who [00:12:30] screen with mammogram have 20 to 30% [00:12:35] more cancers in that group. So they're being diagnosed with more [00:12:40] cancers.
[00:12:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. But they're not dying of breast cancer anymore than the women [00:12:45] who aren't screening.
[00:12:46] Dr. Taz: And this goes back to when we look at stats and we say, okay, we're diagnosing more [00:12:50] breast cancer, but the actual mortality rate hasn't shifted. Correct. It hasn't [00:12:55] really changed.
[00:12:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: The, the absolute number hasn't changed.
[00:12:59] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:13:00] they're saying the mortality rate is improved, but if you diagnose a bunch of [00:13:05] people who would not have died of the disease with the disease and then you [00:13:10] measure mortality rate, of course it's gonna look favorably in, [00:13:15] in that group. But when you look at the absolute number of [00:13:20] women who die of breast cancer every year, that hasn't changed.
[00:13:23] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:13:24] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:13:25] why, if mammogram saves lives, why hasn't that been impacted? Why [00:13:30] haven't we decreased the number of women dying of breast cancer every year?
[00:13:34] Dr. Taz: So [00:13:35] let's go back, you mentioned, and I'm blanking on his name, Dr. Michael Baum. Yeah. Let's go back to that. Mm-hmm. So you said [00:13:40] you're saying his work was actually the biggest regret of his life.
[00:13:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:13:44] Dr. Taz: Tell [00:13:45] me, tell us a little bit more about that.
[00:13:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Well, so when we go back to that original study, the four [00:13:50] women dying of breast cancer versus five Women of dying of breast cancer, [00:13:55] when you look at the number of women that die of cancer in both groups mm-hmm. They're the [00:14:00] same. And then you look at the downstream effects [00:14:05] of screening with mammogram, because if you screen with mammogram yes.
[00:14:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:14:10] One, you'll, you'll save one less woman in a thousand of dying of breast [00:14:15] cancer, even though in both of the groups, 11 women died of [00:14:20] cancer. But you will also cause a hundred women to be called back [00:14:25] for additional views. Oh,
[00:14:26] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:14:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Biopsies. Oh,
[00:14:28] Dr. Taz: yes. All
[00:14:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: the time. Over [00:14:30] diagnosis. Over treatment.
[00:14:31] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:14:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That doesn't happen in the group that you [00:14:35] don't screen with mammogram.
[00:14:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right, right. So the actual cost [00:14:40] is far greater. On the side of screening with mammogram because [00:14:45] we're not really saving lives.
[00:14:46] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:14:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: The overall survival [00:14:50] doesn't change,
[00:14:50] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:14:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: We're not really saving lives. We are creating the [00:14:55] illusion that we are, and that illusion is twofold, first of all, [00:15:00] just based on the design of that original study.
[00:15:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But [00:15:05] the other thing is that when we do these studies, we [00:15:10] create these surrogate endpoints. So we're not really talking about overall survival. We're [00:15:15] not talking about do these women live the same [00:15:20] or longer than, than the women that don't get screened. [00:15:25] We're saying that we're calling survival five years or 10 years or [00:15:30] something like that.
[00:15:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So it, it is. [00:15:35] Um, marred by something called lead time bias.
[00:15:39] Dr. Taz: Okay,
[00:15:39] Dr. Jenn Simmons: so [00:15:40] let's take two women. They're both gonna [00:15:45] die of breast cancer at the age of 60. One woman [00:15:50] is not screening and she gets diagnosed at [00:15:55] 55 and dies at 60.
[00:15:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:15:59] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:16:00] Statistically speaking, that woman died of breast cancer.
[00:16:02] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:16:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Another woman who's [00:16:05] using mammogram, she gets diagnosed at 45.
[00:16:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: She still [00:16:10] dies at 60 of breast cancer. But statistically speaking, she did not die of breast [00:16:15] cancer because she survived five years. She survived 10 years. She's a [00:16:20] survivor.
[00:16:21] Dr. Taz: Oh my gosh. The way we define these things.
[00:16:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. [00:16:25] So when you assign these surrogate endpoints, right? Five year survival, 10 year [00:16:30] survival, then you, you, you're losing the forests through the trees.
[00:16:34] Dr. Taz: So [00:16:35] being a survivor, when we see the walks and people wearing t-shirts and all the things that we see out there, and they say, [00:16:40] I'm a breast cancer survivor, that's defined as a five year or 10 year [00:16:45] survival rate.
[00:16:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:16:46] Dr. Taz: Wow. Mm-hmm. I didn't even know that. Mm-hmm. To be a hundred percent honest. Yeah. Okay.
[00:16:49] Dr. Taz: If [00:16:50] Dr. Michael Baum was sitting here today, what would he say to me?
[00:16:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: He would say, I'm [00:16:55] sorry that I ever, um, I. Started that program [00:17:00] that I ever endorsed, that program that not only are we not saving [00:17:05] lives, but we have created this whole system [00:17:10] that only benefits the system, that there is no benefit to the women.[00:17:15]
[00:17:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And we go back to, you know, we know that mammogram doesn't save [00:17:20] lives, but if it saved breasts, that would be a [00:17:25] worthy, that would be a win endeavor. It would be, right? It absolutely would be. But the only thing that [00:17:30] mammogram has done is, has increased the mastectomy rate. Mm-hmm. So for sure it [00:17:35] leads to a 20% increase in mastectomy rate for several reasons.[00:17:40]
[00:17:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Fear finding. Little things in other areas of the breast [00:17:45] and kind of saying, well, let's just throw the baby out with the bath water. Right? [00:17:50] And so it's really unfortunate and at this point [00:17:55] it's such a monster with so much momentum behind [00:18:00] it.
[00:18:00] Dr. Taz: And money
[00:18:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: and money, right? Right. That's part of the momentum,
[00:18:04] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:18:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:18:05] That and people have been so conditioned to believe that [00:18:10] mammograms save lives, that it's nearly impossible to unring this bell, [00:18:15] and it has become virtue signaling.
[00:18:19] Dr. Taz: [00:18:20] So let's, let's dive into some of the headlines around this as we, as we try to pull this apart [00:18:25] here. So recently, I believe, and I may have this wrong, but Switzerland banned [00:18:30] mammograms.
[00:18:30] Dr. Taz: Is that true?
[00:18:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. That's fake news, unfortunately.
[00:18:34] Dr. Taz: That's fake news. Okay. Tell us
[00:18:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:18:35] about that. '
[00:18:35] Dr. Taz: cause so
[00:18:35] Dr. Jenn Simmons: many
[00:18:36] Dr. Taz: people are coming.
[00:18:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They did get a recommendation. Okay. To do that. [00:18:40] Because of the virtue signaling behind [00:18:45] mammogram.
[00:18:45] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:18:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And, um, and probably one of the [00:18:50] world's biggest names and experts in Mammographic [00:18:55] interpretation, Dr.
[00:18:56] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I think his name is Lazlow. Tobar.
[00:18:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:58] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Uh, who is [00:19:00] from there.
[00:19:00] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Or is Swedish. And he, [00:19:05] um, he was very connected in the [00:19:10] government and said, you know, how can you do this and people want this? And it, it [00:19:15] all became about this kind of moral stance [00:19:20] on people want this, that's why we should do it.
[00:19:22] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:19:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right.
[00:19:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But
[00:19:23] Dr. Taz: it didn't actually happen. [00:19:25]
[00:19:25] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It it did. He, he had the whole thing. [00:19:30] Turned around and reversed because they were going to get rid. [00:19:35] And I think they largely have gotten rid of their kind of [00:19:40] mandatory or screening community screening programs. Now it's the people that want to [00:19:45] screen can screen, but they don't, I don't think that they have formal screening programs [00:19:50] anymore.
[00:19:50] Dr. Taz: Got you.
[00:19:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And the people that screen there, it's nothing like here.
[00:19:54] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:19:54] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:19:55] if they screen there, it's once every few years. It's not a yearly thing like it [00:20:00] is here.
[00:20:00] Dr. Taz: Interesting.
[00:20:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Dr. Taz: Okay. And then another, I,
[00:20:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I wish that were true, but it is,
[00:20:04] Dr. Taz: it's [00:20:05] not true. Okay. Good to know. And then another headline, I don't know if this caught you.
[00:20:08] Dr. Taz: Um, Ananda [00:20:10] Lewis. Did you follow her case at all? She was, I think in our time, kind of a [00:20:15] big MTV dj, dj, and I believe she got diagnosed with breast [00:20:20] cancer. Um, chose not to do repetitive screening. I think she chose not to do treatment [00:20:25] and she ended up dying fairly young. Probably. She's probably right at 50.
[00:20:28] Dr. Taz: Yes. If that. [00:20:30] So again, I don't know all the details of her story. I don't know if you'd paid attention to that, but in [00:20:35] our comments from our first episode, you know, there's some comments about that. [00:20:40] Like, oh, remember Anand Lewis, remember what happened to her? You know, those types of things. So yes,
[00:20:44] Dr. Jenn Simmons: they [00:20:45] love these stories.
[00:20:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes, these cautionary tales,
[00:20:47] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:20:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But the, [00:20:50] the data just speaks otherwise. So no matter how many mammograms [00:20:55] we do every year, the same number of women die of breast cancer. [00:21:00] No matter how many mammograms we do every year, the same number of [00:21:05] women present with aggressive disease. She had aggressive disease.[00:21:10]
[00:21:10] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Would conventional treatment have helped her? 'cause I know that she opted out of [00:21:15] all conventional treatment. Mm-hmm. I don't know.
[00:21:17] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:21:18] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I honestly don't know. I don't [00:21:20] know anything about the specifics of her pathology. Right. But [00:21:25] young women with aggressive cases of breast cancer, can [00:21:30] some of our treatments delay the inevitable?
[00:21:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:21:35] Yeah, probably. And can we get them to fit into that five [00:21:40] year survival statistic? Maybe. Maybe, maybe even the 10 year survival [00:21:45] statistic? I don't know. But the truth is that. Most breast [00:21:50] cancers, they are what they are from the very beginning. Mm. So if it's going to be aggressive, it's [00:21:55] going to be aggressive from the very beginning.
[00:21:56] Dr. Jenn Simmons: This is actually why mammographic [00:22:00] screening doesn't work. Mm. Because breast cancer doesn't follow some linear [00:22:05] predestined progression. It's not like it starts really small [00:22:10] as a ayia or abnormal cells, and then it becomes non-invasive [00:22:15] and then it becomes invasive, and then it becomes node positive and then it becomes metastatic.
[00:22:19] Dr. Taz: [00:22:20] Mm.
[00:22:20] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It would be nice if it worked that way, and there are some cancers that you can [00:22:25] predict their behavior.
[00:22:26] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:22:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like cervical cancer, like colon [00:22:30] cancer. But it's not true of breast cancer. Like there are some people with breast [00:22:35] cancer that de novo from the beginning have metastatic disease.
[00:22:39] Dr. Taz: [00:22:40] Wow.
[00:22:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: There are some people who have DCIS that [00:22:45] will either.
[00:22:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Never progress. Dr. Carcinoma situ. Mm-hmm. That [00:22:50] will never progress to be invasive cancers. In fact, it's around [00:22:55] 80% will never progress. And some of them it will just regress and [00:23:00] go away.
[00:23:00] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:23:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And then there's everything in between.
[00:23:03] Dr. Taz: Do we understand what [00:23:05] drives what
[00:23:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: not exactly.
[00:23:07] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:23:08] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I mean, we can look [00:23:10] at the behavior of the tumor and some of the [00:23:15] prognostics associated with the tumor and guess, but we don't [00:23:20] have any test right now that determines hers.
[00:23:24] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:23:25] What the, what the progression of this specific. [00:23:30] Cancer is going to look like we have some predictive models, [00:23:35] things like the Oncotype mm-hmm. Which determines who does and doesn't benefit from [00:23:40] chemotherapy. Um, we have a predictor of who [00:23:45] does and doesn't benefit from radiation, but we don't really [00:23:50] have a good test to pair along with a [00:23:55] biopsy to say, who does and who does not need treatment.[00:24:00]
[00:24:00] Dr. Taz: Mm. That's so
[00:24:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: frustrating. And that is where we should focus. Yeah. Time, [00:24:05] energy, and money, but that's never happening.
[00:24:08] Dr. Taz: So I wanna break [00:24:10] some of that conversation down a little bit more, because again, going back to the comments from our previous [00:24:15] episode, there were things like, well, you know, if I hadn't shown up, I would've been [00:24:20] diagnosed with stage four.
[00:24:20] Dr. Taz: They caught it early, so and so didn't go and had stage four, [00:24:25] got mets to the brain and then passed away. Um, you know, when we're thinking about the [00:24:30] aggressiveness of cancers, is there a way we can organize it in our [00:24:35] brain in a particular way? Like if you've been given a diagnosis of DCIS, [00:24:40] what is your caution level?
[00:24:42] Dr. Taz: What do you need to think if you've been given some [00:24:45] of the other diagnoses? Right. And we can, we probably should walk through some of the other [00:24:50] types of breast cancer. Yeah. Like. What do you do? Where do you go? What do you start [00:24:55] thinking? I've gotten questions. You know, I just had to get on the phone last week with a dear patient.
[00:24:59] Dr. Taz: Been coming [00:25:00] to me for years, probably almost 15 years. Recent diagnosis, and I think her diagnosis [00:25:05] is stage one ductal Invasive carcinoma. Mm-hmm. Not DCIS, but ductal [00:25:10] invasive. Yeah, invasive ductal carcin. Yep. So that's her diagnosis. You know, other people have the papillary [00:25:15] inflammatory cancer. Some people are ER positive, PR positive.
[00:25:18] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm. Her two positive. Some [00:25:20] people are triple negative. Can you organize this for maybe everybody listening [00:25:25] today to kind of put it into buckets so that we can kind of organize our brains a little bit? [00:25:30] Yeah. And think, okay, these are aggressive. I can slow down on decision making with [00:25:35] these. Mm-hmm. This is what I need to do with these.
[00:25:36] Dr. Taz: Can you help us with that?
[00:25:37] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, absolutely. But I'm [00:25:40] not gonna do it justice the same way that my book, the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer Will [00:25:45] do.
[00:25:45] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[00:25:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I honestly think that this is not [00:25:50] self-serving. This is a book that every single breast owner needs [00:25:55] to read.
[00:25:55] Dr. Taz: Absolutely.
[00:25:56] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And it's, it's
[00:25:57] Dr. Taz: tied to this conversation, not to interrupt you, but [00:26:00] tied to this conversation.
[00:26:01] Dr. Taz: Sure. We can talk about breast cancer, which we're about to do, but [00:26:05] there's also breast health. Mm-hmm. And we need to understand that mm-hmm. As well. And we don't dive into breast [00:26:10] health. You know, now we might think about things metabolically or physiologically, but we're [00:26:15] not talking about the breast. So I feel like those are the two buckets that we really need [00:26:20] to get into Yeah.
[00:26:21] Dr. Taz: To help our viewers and listeners.
[00:26:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, absolutely. So [00:26:25] I'm gonna start off by saying that I, [00:26:30] the, the way that I approach. Who gets treatment and [00:26:35] what treatment they get or don't is do you have clinical disease? [00:26:40] So do you notice a change? Does, does the finding in your [00:26:45] breast have a presence? Do you feel a lump?
[00:26:47] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Has the appearance of your breast changed? [00:26:50] Do you have nipple discharge? Do you have any pain or discomfort? [00:26:55] Because I am going to always defer to the [00:27:00] signals your body is sending you. So someone with a finding [00:27:05] on an imaging study that comes to me and they have [00:27:10] absolutely positively no symptoms, and I being, [00:27:15] you know, highly, highly trained to examine the breast [00:27:20] and.
[00:27:21] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Also to really [00:27:25] dive deep for symptoms. If I can't find any, I am [00:27:30] not intervening. Their body has that interesting. Like they're [00:27:35] good. So
[00:27:36] Dr. Taz: no symptoms, no signs.
[00:27:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm, I'm not [00:27:40] treating subclinical disease. I don't really believe in it, [00:27:45] especially because what we have, [00:27:50] the way that we treat breast cancer [00:27:55] does not bode well in the long run for women.
[00:27:58] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:59] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because [00:28:00] most of the treatments that we have for breast cancer, I mean okay, surgery, [00:28:05] maybe there's some deformity associated with the breast. Can people live with that? [00:28:10] Yeah. People can live with that. But the, all the anti hormonal [00:28:15] treatment. The chemotherapy, the radiation, this [00:28:20] accelerates heart disease, which is by far and away exponentially the number [00:28:25] one threat to a woman's life.
[00:28:27] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:28:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And so if we [00:28:30] are treating something that would've never affected them in their lifetime, right? Like they have [00:28:35] subclinical changes in their breast and we now [00:28:40] give them a diagnosis and treat them for breast cancer and give them [00:28:45] heart disease or accelerate their heart disease, have we helped them?
[00:28:49] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:28:50] Did we help them necessarily? Not at all. So I always [00:28:55] start off with where are you right now? Right? Do you have [00:29:00] any evidence of clinical disease? If you have evidence of clinical disease, I'm treating that. I [00:29:05] don't know that I'm throwing everything at it. Right. I am taking you, [00:29:10] meeting you where you are and if it's DCIS or ductal [00:29:15] carcinoma in situ two, well that we know, like we have plenty of time to deal with [00:29:20] that.
[00:29:20] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If you did nothing about that for a year or two years, five [00:29:25] years, it may never progress to be anything. Mm-hmm. I'm not suggesting that people do [00:29:30] nothing.
[00:29:30] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:29:30] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right, right. Like everyone who comes into my ecosystem, [00:29:35] you're doing something. You just may not be doing what the conventional [00:29:40] cancer world is telling you to do.
[00:29:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And you know, I don't come by this lightly. I [00:29:45] spent 20 years as a surgeon. Right. Treating breast cancer, [00:29:50] running a cancer program. Right. An NIH accredited cancer program. [00:29:55] I didn't just fall off the turnip truck or I'm not some like woowoo doctor out [00:30:00] there. Nope. Not at all. Saying like, oh, let's treat cancer with Black [00:30:05] salve.
[00:30:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. Like no.
[00:30:06] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:30:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. But [00:30:10] there are some people with subclinical disease who I don't think need to [00:30:15] go through the rigors of what we consider [00:30:20] the right thing to do in everyone, all comers with breast [00:30:25] changes. Right. So a lot of [00:30:30] D-C-I-S-I am watching. The flip side of it is if you come to [00:30:35] me with DCIS and you have a mass in your breast that you can feel, or you have [00:30:40] nipple discharge or you have some symptom that's invasive cancer until proven [00:30:45] otherwise, from my perspective.
[00:30:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Got
[00:30:46] Dr. Taz: it.
[00:30:47] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Like if you have [00:30:50] some kind of physical change that I can recognize. [00:30:55] In my opinion, there's more there than you think. [00:31:00]
[00:31:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:31:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. And so I'm far more apt to treat that.
[00:31:04] Dr. Taz: And what is that treat? [00:31:05] Is it again the same drugs,
[00:31:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: the same chemo, or, I mean, it depends. Yeah. Okay. It [00:31:10] depends. And so with invasive cancers right, [00:31:15] I'm also probably going [00:31:20] to spend a few months trying to figure out what's going [00:31:25] on with this person before I commit them to treatment.
[00:31:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If they are [00:31:30] totally asymptomatic.
[00:31:31] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If they have a symptom, [00:31:35] then I, I believe in treating breast cancer that is, [00:31:40] that has clinical symptoms, that there is clinical [00:31:45] disease. I just don't believe in treating all of these [00:31:50] asymptomatic. Like microscopic cancers [00:31:55] that are simply being diagnosed because we decided to, [00:32:00] to screen.
[00:32:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I, I, I don't think we're doing the right thing by those people. [00:32:05] And when we look at the data, I know that we're not doing the right thing [00:32:10] by those people. Wow. So that's so
[00:32:10] Dr. Taz: different from what people are hearing.
[00:32:12] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:32:13] Dr. Taz: And the decision making
Yes.
[00:32:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That they're going [00:32:15] through. Yes. 'cause unfortunately, we're very useful idiots.
[00:32:19] Dr. Taz: [00:32:20] Yeah,
[00:32:20] Dr. Jenn Simmons: we are.
[00:32:21] Dr. Taz: So, okay, then what about. A patient [00:32:25] recently, if it's ER PR positive?
[00:32:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:32:27] Dr. Taz: How does that change things? What does HER two negative [00:32:30] mean or HER two positive mean? Yeah.
[00:32:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So when we look at the tumor cell, [00:32:35] there are some characteristics that we look for and we [00:32:40] mostly look for them for the purposes of what can we use in this [00:32:45] instance?
[00:32:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And some of the information is useful and some of the [00:32:50] information is just simply misunderstood. So you are a hormone [00:32:55] expert. Mm-hmm. Let me ask you, what effect does [00:33:00] progesterone have on the breast?
[00:33:02] Dr. Taz: It's anti-inflammatory.
[00:33:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. And it's [00:33:05] also anti-proliferative,
[00:33:06] Dr. Taz: right?
[00:33:08] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:33:10] when we, when we look for these.
[00:33:12] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Receptors on the [00:33:15] cancer cells, we look for estrogen receptors. We look for [00:33:20] progesterone receptors 'cause we can not, because we understand what they mean or what [00:33:25] they do. And we look for a protein on the cell [00:33:30] called her two new. And if we see [00:33:35] these receptors on the on the cell or these proteins on the cell, we [00:33:40] say they're estrogen positive or progesterone positive or HER two positive.[00:33:45]
[00:33:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And then we kind of hand that sheet off of paper off [00:33:50] to the medical oncologist who designs their [00:33:55] treatment around this receptor positivity. Now the first thing you have to [00:34:00] understand is all of these things are normal. Is normal [00:34:05] to have estrogen receptors on the cell. It's how the cell knows to grow. [00:34:10] It is normal to have progesterone receptors on the cell.[00:34:15]
[00:34:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's how the cell knows to stop growing. It is [00:34:20] normal to have her two new protein on the cell. It has to [00:34:25] do with cellular regeneration and these [00:34:30] estrogen, progesterone, even HER two. Proteins [00:34:35] are found in cells all over the body.
[00:34:37] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:34:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Not just the breast. They're not [00:34:40] nearly exclusive to the breast. They're literally all over the [00:34:45] body.
[00:34:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Which is why when we use medicines to target the [00:34:50] HER two protein, we have to be careful and do things like monitor the [00:34:55] heart.
[00:34:55] Dr. Taz: Right?
[00:34:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because guess what? The heart cells are very rich in.
[00:34:59] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:59] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:35:00] They're very rich in HER two new protein.
[00:35:02] Dr. Taz: See, we don't hear about this.
[00:35:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So if you [00:35:05] use Herceptin to treat a HER two [00:35:10] positive cancer, you could at the same time do some [00:35:15] significant damage to the cardiac cells.
[00:35:18] Dr. Taz: Wow.
[00:35:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: To the heart [00:35:20] cells.
[00:35:20] Dr. Taz: Hmm. We're all connected guys. We talk about this all the time.
[00:35:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:35:24] Dr. Taz: It's all
[00:35:24] Dr. Jenn Simmons: connected. [00:35:25]
[00:35:25] Dr. Taz: Yep.
[00:35:25] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So this is why we have to so [00:35:30] thoughtfully and gingerly approach this, but. You only hear the [00:35:35] narrative that the pharmaceutical company wants you to hear. [00:35:40] And I think it's so interesting that like, why don't we [00:35:45] test for androgen receptors?
[00:35:47] Dr. Taz: I have said that for
[00:35:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: years.
[00:35:48] Dr. Taz: And I'm not even like [00:35:50] a breast cancer specialist.
[00:35:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. Do you know the answer? Why?
[00:35:53] Dr. Taz: No, I don't.
[00:35:54] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:35:55] if we look at the, uh. Research out of Rebecca Glaser's [00:36:00] practice. Mm-hmm. In, um, in Ohio, she had, she just released her [00:36:05] 20, 25, 20 year study [00:36:10] and women treated with testosterone.
[00:36:14] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.[00:36:15]
[00:36:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: With or without an aromatase inhibitor because in our body, physiologically [00:36:20] testosterone will convert to estrogen.
[00:36:21] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:36:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So with or without an aromatase [00:36:25] inhibitor to prevent some of that conversion to estrogen, [00:36:30] they have a 47% [00:36:35] decreased incidents of breast cancer as compared to the general [00:36:40] population that are not treated
[00:36:41] Dr. Taz: with testosterone.
[00:36:42] Dr. Taz: Okay. You're gonna have to explain that.
[00:36:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. [00:36:45] So when we were trained to do [00:36:50] menopausal hormone replacement. What were we trained on?
[00:36:53] Dr. Taz: Estrogen and progesterone. [00:36:55] Estradiol and progestin. Usually,
[00:36:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: well, not even [00:37:00] estradiol. We were really trained on conjugated, equine, estrogen. Equine
[00:37:03] Dr. Taz: estrogen
[00:37:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: and [00:37:05] progestogen.
[00:37:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right? Yeah. We, we were trained on to give people prempro.
[00:37:09] Dr. Taz: Right,
[00:37:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:37:10] right,
[00:37:10] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:37:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So we were never trained on giving women [00:37:15] testosterone. It was heresy. Mm-hmm. To give women testosterone. [00:37:20] Well, for whatever the reason Rebecca Glazer figured [00:37:25] out a long time ago, early on in her career, and she's a breast surgeon by training [00:37:30] that if you give testosterone to [00:37:35] women with proliferative breasts, with proliferative lesions, [00:37:40] and it in the context of your menopausal hormone therapy.[00:37:45]
[00:37:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They actually, their lesions either regressed or they [00:37:50] didn't go on to develop breast cancer. And so she kept doing it and kept studying [00:37:55] it and kept doing it and kept studying it. And she just released her [00:38:00] 20 year results. Wow. And her patients who she [00:38:05] routinely treats with testosterone, she actually doesn't even give estrogen.
[00:38:09] Dr. Taz: [00:38:10] Huh?
[00:38:10] Dr. Jenn Simmons: She just gives testosterone. They have a [00:38:15] 47% decrease in the incidents of breast cancer as compared to the [00:38:20] general population. So she's comparing her results.
[00:38:23] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:38:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So granted it [00:38:25] is a single
[00:38:26] Dr. Taz: Right. A single
[00:38:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: physician study. Right. Right. She's [00:38:30] comparing her results to the SEER results. Mm-hmm. Our national, [00:38:35] um, data data bank.
[00:38:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But she shows a [00:38:40] huge. Decrease in the incidence of breast [00:38:45] cancer in her patient population. Now, in her practice, [00:38:50] not only is she using it for breast cancer prevention, but [00:38:55] she's also using it for breast cancer treatment [00:39:00] in the metastatic population.
[00:39:01] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:39:02] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And getting tremendous results. [00:39:05] So let's back up to the question of why are we not looking for [00:39:10] androgen receptors?
[00:39:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because if we look for androgen receptors and we find [00:39:15] them, and testosterone can be used [00:39:20] to treat and reverse breast cancer, how does that [00:39:25] benefit the pharmaceutical industry?
[00:39:27] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:39:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:39:30] Because they can't use bioidentical testosterone because you cannot trademark a [00:39:35] molecule of nature. Yeah. So who's doing that study?[00:39:40]
[00:39:40] Dr. Taz: Back to the usual problem we have. So, but what about, okay, so I'm [00:39:45] curious, this is more selfish. I'm curious as someone who's very androgen sensitive.
[00:39:49] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:39:50] Mm-hmm.
[00:39:50] Dr. Taz: Right? Mm-hmm. Like slight increases in testosterone or free testosterone or DHEA, [00:39:55] acne, hair loss, weight gain, all the things.
[00:39:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:39:58] Dr. Taz: We have an androgen [00:40:00] epidemic a little bit with the higher cortisol levels that most women today are experiencing.
[00:40:04] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:40:04] Dr. Taz: There's a [00:40:05] relationship between cortisol and androgen excess.
[00:40:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:40:08] Dr. Taz: So would those women [00:40:10] benefit from testosterone or what, or have we studied those women?
[00:40:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They [00:40:15] would, but first of all, you need to know their genetics. You need to see how you need you, [00:40:20] you need to support them. You know, maybe you're giving testosterone along with a [00:40:25] little bit of an aromatase inhibitor to prevent.
[00:40:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Too much conversion to [00:40:30] estrogen. You need to see where you need to support their estrogen detoxification pathways. [00:40:35] And like, maybe they also need a five alpha reductase inhibitor. Mm-hmm. So that [00:40:40] you're not converting that testosterone that you're giving them to five alpha.
[00:40:44] Dr. Taz: [00:40:45] Right.
[00:40:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: To the five alpha variant.
[00:40:47] Dr. Taz: Absolutely.
[00:40:47] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So it [00:40:50] can be done, but it has to be done thoughtfully. Yeah. With, with [00:40:55] awareness of the person sitting in front of you [00:41:00] and what effect it has on them. And I also think that we need to, we need to [00:41:05] school people on genetics and the detoxification [00:41:10] pathways. Yes. And, and they also need to be able to [00:41:15] look at the results, look at the metabolites, see where [00:41:20] people are getting in trouble and help them.
[00:41:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And we can, if you, if you know the [00:41:25] pathways. You know how to influence the pathways. You can, you can support them. There's
[00:41:29] Dr. Taz: [00:41:30] so much we can do from a proactive, preventive standpoint. And I, and I'm watching my [00:41:35] time, so hopefully we can get there. But, you know, I do wanna touch upon the women that have been [00:41:40] diagnosed with er PR positive breast cancer and have gone on anti-hormone therapy [00:41:45] and then have had much of the fallout of anti-hormone therapy, whether it's [00:41:50] depression or weight gain or joint issues, or all kinds of Yeah.
[00:41:53] Dr. Taz: Metabolic disorders, [00:41:55] right? Yeah.
[00:41:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Awful.
[00:41:55] Dr. Taz: Um, I
[00:41:56] Dr. Jenn Simmons: call her the forgotten woman.
[00:41:57] Dr. Taz: They ask me. [00:42:00] If as a hormone expert, as you mentioned, should I, should they be [00:42:05] off their anti-hormone therapy and is it okay for them to [00:42:10] do very low dose bioidentical hormone replacement therapy with like a [00:42:15] bioidentical, you know, estrogen or bioidentical progesterone?
[00:42:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah. What would you say to those women?
[00:42:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, [00:42:20] so let's, let's look at the data.
[00:42:22] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:42:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because we have a lots of [00:42:25] data from the soft trial about suppression of ovarian function [00:42:30] and what we know, and I think Jeffrey Dash writes about this mm-hmm. Brilliantly. Yeah. In [00:42:35] his book, bioidentical Hormones get the one with the puzzle face.
[00:42:39] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Um, [00:42:40] when you deprive the cells of [00:42:45] estrogen for a long enough period of time, what [00:42:50] happens when you start to reintroduce estrogen is that it becomes [00:42:55] very toxic to the cancer cells. It's like. It's like [00:43:00] refeeding.
[00:43:00] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:43:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: You know that phenomenon of refeeding when you've absolutely had [00:43:05] starvation for a long time.
[00:43:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. And then you, if you refeed too quickly, it's very [00:43:10] toxic. It's the same thing for the cancer [00:43:15] cells. So we know that when we have [00:43:20] women who have been on estrogen deprivation for the purposes of treating the [00:43:25] cancer, about four years is the sweet spot. And [00:43:30] then you start to reintroduce estrogen again.
[00:43:34] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: In the [00:43:35] form of estriol, estradiol, uh, I usually recommend [00:43:40] biased,
[00:43:40] Dr. Taz: right? My favorite.
[00:43:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And those women [00:43:45] actually have a far better survival and a decreased risk of recurrence
[00:43:49] Dr. Taz: [00:43:50] four years post. Interesting.
[00:43:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:43:53] Dr. Taz: Well, that's kind of a message of hope [00:43:55] right there.
[00:43:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. Amazing. So for women who have been like [00:44:00] five years on estrogen deprivation therapy, seven years, 10 [00:44:05] years, and they come to me and they want hormone replacement, it's a hell yes for [00:44:10] me.
[00:44:10] Dr. Taz: Amazing.
[00:44:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because I know that you're gonna benefit their heart, benefit their [00:44:15] brain, benefit their bones, benefit their joints, benefit their bladder, [00:44:20] and you are not going to increase their risk of recurrence [00:44:25] and you're gonna make them happier.
[00:44:27] Dr. Taz: So, but in this estrogen [00:44:30] replacement or hormone replacement, does it need to be bioidentical?
[00:44:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[00:44:34] Dr. Taz: Versus the [00:44:35] traditional estradiol patch And
[00:44:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: yes.
[00:44:37] Dr. Taz: Progesterone
[00:44:37] Dr. Jenn Simmons: test, I mean, the estradiol patch is [00:44:40] bioidentical. It's just not right. The way that we would do it. Right. Um, but the studies [00:44:45] weren't on. Bioidentical biased. Mm-hmm. The studies [00:44:50] were on the, the well it, they were on [00:44:55] bioidentical progesterone, but some of the studies were on the [00:45:00] progestins.
[00:45:01] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's just that those are the studies that didn't have the good outcomes.
[00:45:04] Dr. Taz: [00:45:05] Let's do one more triple negative breast cancer.
[00:45:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. So the [00:45:10] thing about triple negative breast cancer and what that means is that you don't have estrogen [00:45:15] receptors. You don't have progesterone receptors, you don't have HER two new [00:45:20] protein on these cells.
[00:45:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: The reason why these are [00:45:25] considered the bad actors.
[00:45:26] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:45:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: What the industry will tell you is that we have [00:45:30] less treatment that that against them, that can affect them. We [00:45:35] can't manipulate the HER two protein 'cause it's not there. We can't manipulate the estrogen [00:45:40] receptor 'cause it's not there. The real problem with [00:45:45] that is that.
[00:45:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: When you look at that cell, that cell is a very, [00:45:50] very far departure from the normal breast cell.
[00:45:53] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:45:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It is really [00:45:55] mutated. That cell is lost, far gone. [00:46:00] It's very difficult to recreate the environment where [00:46:05] those cells would become normal again, where those cells would become safe again. [00:46:10] So for me, the real challenge with that patient isn't, oh, I can't [00:46:15] use Tamoxifen or Aromatase inhibitors, or [00:46:20] Herceptin or Perjeta or any of the other treatments that are routinely used [00:46:25] for her two positive or ER PR positive, that kind of thing.
[00:46:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And I want to get back to [00:46:30] PR positive, but. The real challenge is [00:46:35] why is this person so shifted? Because cancer's a normal response to an [00:46:40] abnormal environment.
[00:46:41] Dr. Taz: Mm.
[00:46:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: What is so environmentally shifted [00:46:45] about this person? Where is their toxic burden? Can we find [00:46:50] it? Mm. Can we reverse their toxic burden so that their selves [00:46:55] don't have to feel so threatened?
[00:46:56] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:46:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So that they don't have to be [00:47:00] so uber and overly responsive [00:47:05] to whatever this is happening here.
[00:47:08] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:47:08] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That, that's, [00:47:10] that's, that's where you like to
[00:47:11] Dr. Taz: focus
[00:47:11] Dr. Jenn Simmons: with this patient. Will they respond to [00:47:15] chemotherapy? Yeah, most of them do, but the problem is when you give [00:47:20] these women chemotherapy and their body is already [00:47:25] screaming that I'm toxic.
[00:47:27] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That's where the cancer came from in the first [00:47:30] place. And you give these women chemotherapy, you essentially take their immune system out of [00:47:35] the picture. Right? 'cause it destroys, destroys it. The immune system we know that destroys the [00:47:40] immune system. Drives
[00:47:40] Dr. Taz: more inflammation.
[00:47:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. So you have some seeming [00:47:45] short term gain because it will get rid of the cancer [00:47:50] temporarily in In many women,
[00:47:52] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[00:47:53] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But the long-term [00:47:55] price that they pay is enormous. And unless you can figure out [00:48:00] where their toxicity is coming from, reverse it, kind of reset their [00:48:05] system, you're not gonna get durable long-term results. And in fact, the [00:48:10] long-term it, it looks pretty bleak in these women. So. [00:48:15] It's, it's not that they don't have aggressive disease, they do, [00:48:20] but our aggressive approach to that woman who is already [00:48:25] suffering, who is already screaming that this world is not [00:48:30] working for them,
[00:48:30] Dr. Taz: right.
[00:48:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: In the way that they, they have it right now. We're not [00:48:35] serving them, but we're making ourselves feel better by giving them a [00:48:40] drugs and saying, Hey, look at this response that you got big [00:48:45] pat to me on the back. Right? But then they're back in your office a year later with [00:48:50] widespread
[00:48:50] Dr. Taz: metastatic disease.
[00:48:51] Dr. Taz: What's the approach them like I can see somebody listening who's like, well, what am I, what am I supposed to [00:48:55] do? Like I've been diagnosed with triple negative cancer. You know, I've been diagnosed [00:49:00] with ER PR positive cancer. You know, my doctors are saying [00:49:05] mastectomy, you know, chemo, radiation. Yeah. What, what [00:49:10] is it that we should do?
[00:49:11] Dr. Taz: Here's what I've heard from you already, is first decide if it's clinical or [00:49:15] subclinical. Mm-hmm. That seems to be step one.
[00:49:16] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:49:17] Dr. Taz: But then what's step two? What's step three?
[00:49:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. So [00:49:20] we need to do like a whole body workup. The [00:49:25] first thing everyone should do is take a breath, take a pause. Know that you [00:49:30] have time.
[00:49:30] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. That, do that like a hundred times [00:49:35] and know that you have time and space with rare exception. There are some [00:49:40] exceptions. You mentioned infa inflammatory breast cancer before.
[00:49:43] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:49:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That's an emergency. You don't have [00:49:45] much time.
[00:49:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[00:49:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: You, you need to figure out what's happening and deal with it. [00:49:50] Um, if you have a metastasis to your bone that has [00:49:55] caused a fracture, these are very painful.
[00:49:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. It is nearly [00:50:00] impossible to heal while you are suffering in pain that needs immediate treatment. [00:50:05] If you have mets to the brain. The brain, the skull is a fixed [00:50:10] space and metastatic disease or tumor deposits in your [00:50:15] brain, they cause a lot of swelling, edema. You're not gonna be able [00:50:20] to tolerate a lot of that.
[00:50:21] Dr. Jenn Simmons: That needs immediate treatment and everything [00:50:25] else. You really have time. So figuring out what's happening with [00:50:30] you before committing to treatment is pretty important. [00:50:35] And you have a month to do that. You have two months to do that. Mm-hmm. So [00:50:40] everyone should start by reading my book, the Smart Woman's Guide to Breast Cancer.
[00:50:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Okay. And like literally it'll [00:50:45] take you two days. I wrote this in a way that you [00:50:50] can get, get what you need from that book right away
[00:50:54] Dr. Taz: to start a [00:50:55] plan and to
[00:50:55] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. To
[00:50:55] Dr. Taz: guide you to a certain extent. Yes.
[00:50:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And it's every question that you need to be asking the [00:51:00] surgeon that you need to be asking the medical oncologist, the radiation oncologist, so that you [00:51:05] go in there prepared.
[00:51:06] Dr. Taz: Hmm.
[00:51:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:51:10] everyone who gets a breast cancer diagnosis gets a treatment plan. [00:51:15] They're a dime a dozen. Most of them are exactly the same. Mm. Like people talk about going to get a [00:51:20] second opinion all the time. If you get an opinion from a surgeon and you [00:51:25] get another opinion from a surgeon, you're not getting a second opinion.
[00:51:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They're [00:51:30] all saying their version of the same exact thing, but a [00:51:35] second opinion from someone like me who's integrative, [00:51:40] who knows and understands the whole conventional side, but then [00:51:45] says. What are you eating? What are you drinking? What are you thinking? Yeah. What, how, what [00:51:50] have your traumas been? How much stress are you under?
[00:51:54] Dr. Jenn Simmons: What? [00:51:55] What is your toxic burden? What are your detoxification practices? How are you moving [00:52:00] your body? How often are you moving your body? And we are looking at [00:52:05] your genetics. We not, not like do you have a BRCA mutation or one of those [00:52:10] things, but we're actually looking at your functional, actionable [00:52:15] genetics and saying, how can we create an environment for you [00:52:20] that fosters health rather than creating disease?
[00:52:23] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Because you cannot [00:52:25] get better in the same environment that you got sick.
[00:52:28] Dr. Taz: So it comes back to whole body [00:52:30] health.
[00:52:30] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It does
[00:52:30] Dr. Taz: how everything is interconnected.
[00:52:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm.
[00:52:33] Dr. Taz: And it's whole
[00:52:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:52:35] Plus
[00:52:35] Dr. Taz: I. Didn't think we needed a part three, but now it's looking like we need a part three. [00:52:40] But before, but before I let you go for today, I [00:52:45] do wanna wrap this up into a prevention conversation around breast health.
[00:52:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:52:49] Dr. Taz: I know you have [00:52:50] different ideas around screening. If you were to, you know, could wave a [00:52:55] magic wand and told every woman to protect their breast, here's what they need to be [00:53:00] looking for, here's how to screen. What would you tell them?
[00:53:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. So this is such an [00:53:05] easy answer. First of all, I think everyone should be doing self-breast examination.
[00:53:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Not that [00:53:10] it's gonna find something in its infancy, but the way that [00:53:15] we, I I, I think it's important to know your body and know what your body feels like. And no [00:53:20] one's ever gonna know you better than you know yourself. So everyone should be doing self breast examination, [00:53:25] but. The answer to how everyone should be [00:53:30] screening is already here, and it's in, in the United States, at [00:53:35] least universally available.
[00:53:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So it's something called the Aria Tears Test. I don't know if you've heard of this [00:53:40] test.
[00:53:40] Dr. Taz: Well, you educated me on that.
[00:53:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So this is an at-home screening kit.
[00:53:44] Dr. Taz: [00:53:45] Mm-hmm.
[00:53:45] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And it uses your tears. So there's a tiny little [00:53:50] litmus paper that you put inside of your eye. I should have brought you kits, I should. Tiny little [00:53:55] litmus paper that you put inside of your eye.
[00:53:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Close your eye for five minutes, send it off to the [00:54:00] company. It doesn't hurt. You don't have to poke yourself in the eye, make yourself cry, nothing like [00:54:05] that. So a week and a half later, you get your [00:54:10] report and you either have a negative result, in which case [00:54:15] this test has a 93% sensitivity for breast cancer.
[00:54:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Wow. If you [00:54:20] don't feel anything in your breast and this test is negative, you don't have breast cancer. [00:54:25] If it is clinically positive, then [00:54:30] you need imaging.
[00:54:31] Dr. Taz: Mm,
[00:54:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: right?
[00:54:32] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:54:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:54:35] now the specificity of this test. Is around [00:54:40] 58%, meaning that 42% of the time, if you don't [00:54:45] have breast cancer, this test is going to be positive.
[00:54:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now, people are outraged by [00:54:50] that. They're like, oh, there's so many false positives to this test. There are [00:54:55] no false positives to this test. This test does not measure for breast cancer. [00:55:00] This measures for the inflammatory precursors of breast cancer, [00:55:05]
[00:55:05] Dr. Taz: so you have inflammation.
[00:55:06] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If you have the inflammation, and this inflammation [00:55:10] happens to be specific to breast cancer.
[00:55:13] Dr. Jenn Simmons: If you have this [00:55:15] specific inflammation elevations in the monomers, the [00:55:20] S 100, a nine, a eight, and S 100, A nine proteins, when you put [00:55:25] them together, the dimer is called calprotectin. I'm sure you've heard of that.
[00:55:28] Dr. Taz: Yes. Oh, yeah.
[00:55:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: We checked time, but [00:55:30] separately, yeah. Separately. Mm-hmm. These proteins when they are both elevated to [00:55:35] critical levels, are highly predictive of the very early stages of [00:55:40] breast cancer.
[00:55:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So if you have a clinically positive result and you do nothing [00:55:45] in six months, 11% will have [00:55:50] clinical evidence of breast cancer. That's how, that's how [00:55:55] predictive this is. Wow. So I tell everyone who gets a clinically [00:56:00] significant result, you need imaging. Absolutely. And if there's something there, you need to act on [00:56:05] it.
[00:56:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But if you have nothing on [00:56:10] imaging. Guess what you have? You have the opportunity to prevent [00:56:15] breast cancer. And the way that we do that is we look at your diet. [00:56:20] What are you eating? 80% of our exposure to the [00:56:25] outside world, 80% of what will affect our health is through what we eat and [00:56:30] what we drink. So what are you eating and what are you drinking?
[00:56:33] Dr. Taz: Mm,
[00:56:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: right. [00:56:35] Diet, drinking, alcohol [00:56:40] avoidance, decrease the number of toxins that you come into [00:56:45] contact with every single day. The average woman before like nine o'clock [00:56:50] in the morning, has already exposed herself to like [00:56:55] 151 toxins or something crazy like that. We need to be far more [00:57:00] conscientious about what we put in on and around us, but in addition.[00:57:05]
[00:57:05] Dr. Jenn Simmons: We need to have detoxification practices. Yes. We need to [00:57:10] be peeing and pooping and moving our bodies and [00:57:15] sweating and breathing. I mean, this is how we part of [00:57:20] detox, get rid of our detox, our toxins, and we need to have these practices. We must, must, [00:57:25] must have these, these practices. I'm gonna ask you this
[00:57:27] Dr. Taz: question 'cause there's so much, you know, in the wellness world right now of [00:57:30] doing this and doing that, is there one modality beyond diet, [00:57:35] exercise, sleep, managing your stress, of course, moving your body, all [00:57:40] these different things.
[00:57:41] Dr. Taz: Is there one modality out there that you've seen that's a great way to detox [00:57:45] quickly?
[00:57:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, I, I can't say enough about sweating.
[00:57:49] Dr. Taz: Sweating. [00:57:50] So sauna.
[00:57:51] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah,
[00:57:51] Dr. Taz: I love my sauna.
[00:57:52] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. And I think that it [00:57:55] accomplishes so much because when you're in that sauna, yes you do [00:58:00] get that physical, um, benefit of sweating and [00:58:05] just getting the toxins out that way.
[00:58:07] Dr. Jenn Simmons: But if you use that time [00:58:10] wisely, you're also doing your deep breathing.
[00:58:13] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:58:14] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So [00:58:15] you're getting toxins out that way. You're also doing your [00:58:20] meditation. So you're getting those toxins out from here, those toxins, those toxic [00:58:25] thoughts that have such a profound effect on your [00:58:30] life, your health, how you perceive the world, your stress.
[00:58:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:58:35] So I think that that. 20 minutes or whatever, and you can [00:58:40] keep it to 20 minutes because if you go into your sauna hot, you don't need that much time in [00:58:45] there to warm up.
[00:58:45] Dr. Taz: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:58:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So I always tell people either go in right after you [00:58:50] exercise, go in after you drink hot tea, something, go in hot [00:58:55] and spend 20 minutes in there doing your deep breathing, doing [00:59:00] your meditation, and you have just really set the stage for [00:59:05] detoxification, shower afterwards, put a shower filter
[00:59:09] Dr. Taz: mm-hmm.
[00:59:09] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:59:10] On your, on your shower head so that that water is filtered and you're rinsing off [00:59:15] toxins. Right. And not bringing in more.
[00:59:16] Dr. Taz: Yep.
[00:59:17] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And then drink your [00:59:20] filtered water afterwards. The, this will go a very long [00:59:25] way towards cleaning out your body.
[00:59:27] Dr. Taz: Wow, that's so helpful and so encouraging. [00:59:30] And you mentioned imaging.
[00:59:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[00:59:32] Dr. Taz: Tell us your favorite way to image.
[00:59:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So. [00:59:35] I just, when, when we're talking about screening and right now I am only talking [00:59:40] about the screening population screening,
[00:59:41] Dr. Taz: prevention
[00:59:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: screening, we are talking about [00:59:45] healthy women.
[00:59:45] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[00:59:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Who we have no reason to believe that they have breast cancer.
[00:59:49] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:59:49] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [00:59:50] Right.
[00:59:50] Dr. Jenn Simmons: In this population, I think it is unethical to [00:59:55] expose them to anything that could harm them.
[00:59:57] Dr. Taz: Right.
[00:59:58] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So that's why I don't use [01:00:00] screening mammograms because it is radiation. It's an x-ray. We gave [01:00:05] it a nice pretty name. We gave it mammogram picture of the breast. Mm-hmm. But [01:00:10] it's still a pig. No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig, it's [01:00:15] still a pig.
[01:00:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It's an x-ray and in every other situation, x-rays [01:00:20] cause cancer.
[01:00:21] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[01:00:21] Dr. Jenn Simmons: It applies to mammograms too, so don't be [01:00:25] fooled. So I don't use mammogram and I don't use MRI for screening because of the [01:00:30] gadolinium. Mm. And the non-contrast MRIs aren't worth anything. They aren't
[01:00:34] Dr. Taz: worth it. [01:00:35] That's really important for everyone to remember.
[01:00:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes.
[01:00:37] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:00:37] Dr. Jenn Simmons: So I [01:00:40] recommend qt.
[01:00:41] Dr. Taz: Mm-hmm.
[01:00:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Which is sound wave technology [01:00:45] transmitted through a warm water bath. So it's like a spa day for your breast. But take that, [01:00:50] it collects 200,000 times more data points than MRI and creates a [01:00:55] true 3D reconstruction of your breast without pain, without [01:01:00] compression, without radiation, without gadolinium.
[01:01:02] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Right. So 100% [01:01:05] safe for everyone. There are only a few centers I know across the us. I [01:01:10] mean, my perfection Imaging, which is in the suburbs of Philadelphia, was the first [01:01:15] independent screening center that uses this technology. [01:01:20] That's the bad news. The good news is I'm putting up 50. Amazing. So patient,
[01:01:24] Dr. Taz: yeah,
[01:01:24] Dr. Jenn Simmons: be [01:01:25] patient this year, this next coming year, 2026.
[01:01:29] Dr. Jenn Simmons: You will [01:01:30] see a lot of perfection, imagings coming to a town near you. So be [01:01:35] patient. So
[01:01:35] Dr. Taz: excited.
[01:01:35] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah.
[01:01:36] Dr. Taz: But in the interim, I already told you I'm coming to you. Yes,
[01:01:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: yes. I'm, I would [01:01:40] love to have you. I'm getting scanned. I would love to have you. Um, and we're putting a second scanner [01:01:45] into my, my facility, Philadelphia location.
[01:01:48] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Awesome. Just because there's a [01:01:50] huge, huge, as you might imagine, yes. A huge, huge, huge demand for this. Right. [01:01:55] Um, if you don't have access. Go get an [01:02:00] ultrasound.
[01:02:00] Dr. Taz: Okay.
[01:02:00] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now a lot of people, that's very difficult for them because most of [01:02:05] the women's imaging centers will not give you an ultrasound, won't unless won't do [01:02:10] it.
[01:02:10] Dr. Jenn Simmons: You agree to a mammogram, right? So, you know there is something called a [01:02:15] her scan. They have vans. It's a mobile scan. Mobile, yeah.
[01:02:18] Dr. Taz: Yeah.
[01:02:19] Dr. Jenn Simmons: [01:02:20] And it's better than nothing. Is it great? No, it's not great, but it's better than nothing.
[01:02:24] Dr. Taz: [01:02:25] Okay.
[01:02:25] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now,
[01:02:27] Dr. Taz: which is an important point by the way guys, we are not saying to [01:02:30] do nothing.
[01:02:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: No.
[01:02:31] Dr. Taz: This is not about doing nothing. We are
[01:02:32] Dr. Jenn Simmons: not
[01:02:32] Dr. Taz: right. A lot of comments were like [01:02:35] this, you know, I did this, I did that. What are we supposed to do? You have to do something.
[01:02:39] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes, [01:02:40] yes. Do
[01:02:40] Dr. Taz: something. You know,
[01:02:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: so, but the something,
[01:02:42] Dr. Taz: yeah.
[01:02:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Is the ARIA test correct? Like everyone needs [01:02:45] to be doing the ARIA test. Yeah.
[01:02:46] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Now. I want to be very clear. I am talking [01:02:50] about the asymptomatic population here, right? When I say the only imaging you [01:02:55] should be doing is QT or ultrasound, if you have a lump in your breast, if you have nipple discharge, [01:03:00] if your breast looks different, if your breast is big and red and swollen, if you have new [01:03:05] pain, if you have any new symptom in your breast that you can't explain, [01:03:10] like obviously if you got bumped in the breast and you'd a huge bruise there.
[01:03:13] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Mm-hmm. You can explain that,
[01:03:14] Dr. Taz: right? [01:03:15]
[01:03:15] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I'm not worried about that. Right? If you have a new symptom. [01:03:20] You are not in the screening population, you are on the diagnostic [01:03:25] population. You need to do what you need to do to figure out what is going on there. Mm. You [01:03:30] need to see a breast specialist. Most of the time they are breast surgeons.
[01:03:34] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And [01:03:35] the breast surgeons only speak the mammogram ultrasound, MR. [01:03:40] Language. You're gonna have to speak their language. You're going to have to get those [01:03:45] studies. Can you prepare your body for those studies? Yes. [01:03:50] I tell people I, I have a, a pre mammogram [01:03:55] or CAT scan or whatever
[01:03:56] Dr. Taz: Right.
[01:03:57] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Um, radiation emitting [01:04:00] study that you're gonna have.
[01:04:02] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I have people taking high doses of [01:04:05] melatonin and vitamin C and glutathione to prepare your [01:04:10] body with lots of antioxidants that can kind of soak up those free [01:04:15] radicals that are created at the time of radiation and hopefully protect yourself [01:04:20] against the damage of radiation. I also have an MRI protection protocol [01:04:25] to try to prevent your body from absorbing that [01:04:30] gadolinium and facilitate your kidneys.
[01:04:31] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Is this all in your book of excreting? It? It's in my book, it's on [01:04:35] my website. I, I'm trying to help trying your heart. [01:04:40] Get the info out there, trying my hardest. Oh. You know, for all of those [01:04:45] people that you know, what are, what am I to do? Right? These are my only choices. [01:04:50] They're not your only choices.
[01:04:52] Dr. Jenn Simmons: They're the choices that you've been told to do. [01:04:55] And they are depending on you being a good little girl. Mm-hmm. And [01:05:00] just follow along. Mm-hmm. And this comes back to where we started. It's [01:05:05] all about virtue signaling. And am I being a good little girl? [01:05:10] So, do you wanna be a good little girl? Because good little girls who get their mammograms [01:05:15] every year have a higher chance of breast cancer, have a higher chance [01:05:20] of being diagnosed with breast cancer.
[01:05:22] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And every mammogram you get [01:05:25] increases your risk of getting breast cancer. It's the perfect way to [01:05:30] become a patient.
[01:05:31] Dr. Taz: I think we're all tired of being good little girls.
[01:05:33] Dr. Jenn Simmons: I know.
[01:05:33] Dr. Taz: It's, it's a very [01:05:35] tired I
[01:05:35] Dr. Jenn Simmons: know
[01:05:35] Dr. Taz: paradigm that everyone needs to throw off officially.
[01:05:38] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yes. Well, I, oh
[01:05:39] Dr. Taz: my gosh, [01:05:40] we're
[01:05:40] Dr. Jenn Simmons: the perfect outfit to
[01:05:41] Dr. Taz: not
[01:05:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: be
[01:05:41] Dr. Taz: a
[01:05:41] Dr. Jenn Simmons: good little
[01:05:42] Dr. Taz: girl,
[01:05:42] Dr. Jenn Simmons: but I, I
[01:05:42] Dr. Taz: definitely look like a good little girl today.
[01:05:44] Dr. Taz: Dressed [01:05:45] like a badass today. I mean, we could continue to go into the weeds [01:05:50] here, but I hope the message that everybody has received is at least to take a breath, slow [01:05:55] down. Yes. Understand your body. Understand that there's more at play here than just [01:06:00] purely just your breast. And I think that's why I'm so passionate about what I do.
[01:06:04] Dr. Taz: Yeah. And [01:06:05] really understanding, wanting everyone to understand, you know, it is whole plus it is putting all of it [01:06:10] together. Yes. No matter whether we're talking about the breast or you're talking about the brain or you're talking about something [01:06:15] else, you have to put everything together. Yes. So, thank you so much.
[01:06:18] Dr. Taz: You're so welcome for coming back. And I'm gonna ask you the same [01:06:20] question again because I can Oh. You know what makes you whole? And let's see if you have the same answer [01:06:25] or if it's changed from season one.
[01:06:28] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah, so I, [01:06:30] it always comes back to God and my family. Yeah.
[01:06:34] Dr. Taz: I don't think it changed. I [01:06:35] think you said that last time too.
[01:06:36] Dr. Jenn Simmons: Yeah. Yeah.
[01:06:36] Dr. Taz: Those are the pillars,
[01:06:37] Dr. Jenn Simmons: right? Yeah. I mean, you know, at the end of the [01:06:40] day you're on a big mission. I'm on a big mission and we [01:06:45] were all put on earth by God for our unique [01:06:50] mission, and nothing lights me up. Nothing fills my [01:06:55] cup more than when I know that I am living [01:07:00] my mission, serving my purpose.
[01:07:03] Dr. Jenn Simmons: And. [01:07:05] That is to be a light onto [01:07:10] this world and to love my family [01:07:15] and prepare them for their mission. I mean, that's really what it's about. That
[01:07:19] Dr. Taz: chills [01:07:20] so powerful and that mission shines through. It's so obvious and so [01:07:25] thank you so much for all the work you're doing for all the women all over the world.
[01:07:29] Dr. Taz: We [01:07:30] are so appreciative because I know so many people just feel backed into a [01:07:35] corner. They think they're checking off the boxes and then they don't understand why things sometimes [01:07:40] turn into a different direction. Yeah. So thank you so much. I appreciate it. My
[01:07:43] Dr. Jenn Simmons: pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. Oh my
[01:07:44] Dr. Taz: [01:07:45] gosh.
[01:07:45] Dr. Taz: Can't wait for everything. Part three, to
[01:07:47] Dr. Jenn Simmons: come up with another
[01:07:47] Dr. Taz: offer, part three, we need a part three. So [01:07:50] for everyone else watching and listening to this episode, a whole plus, we do post new episodes [01:07:55] every week, and we're only diving deeper as you can see from this [01:08:00] conversation right here. I'll see you guys next time before you go take a second to reflect on [01:08:05] what stood out for you today.
[01:08:06] Dr. Taz: Then if you can leave a quick review wherever [01:08:10] you're listening, it really helps other people discover Whole Plus and start their own [01:08:15] healing journey. And don't forget to follow me on Instagram at Dr. Taz md. I love [01:08:20] hearing how these episodes are supporting you.