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All right, we're ready for departure. Here at the Pilot Project Podcast,

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the best source for stories and advice from the pilots of the RCAF.

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Brought to you by Skies magazine and RCAF today.

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I'm your host, Brian Morrison. With me today is my buddy from

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flight training days, Rich McDougall. Welcome to the show, Rich.

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Thanks for having me on.

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Yeah. Ah, man.

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Um, all right, before we get started.

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We'Ll go over Rich's bio. Rich grew up in Diep,

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New Brunswick, and joined the Canadian Armed Forces in 2006

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while attending the University Tay de Moncton under the

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Regular Officer Training Program. After receiving his

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wings in 2011, rich was posted to Four Three Five

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Transport and Rescue Squadron in Winnipeg, Manitoba, where he

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flew the CC 130 H Hercules. While posted to

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Four Three Five Squadron, he conducted NORAD and Air

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refueling missions around the globe as tanker commander and

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instructor pilot. In 2017, Rich

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was posted to two Canadian forces flight training school to Instruct

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on the CT 156 Harvard. Two aircraft.

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Rich joined the Snowbirds in 2019, flying as

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Snowbird Eleven during Op inspiration in 2020.

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After a lengthy recovery, rich joined the team again for the

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2022 airshow season. He is with the team again for

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the 2023 season and acting as advance and safety

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pilot. Rich has over 2500 military

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flying hours. So, we've

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known each other for quite a while. We were trying to piece this together,

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but I think we met on land survival training.

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I think so, yeah.

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Uh, I have no idea the answer to this, though. So where did

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flying begin for you?

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Well, it started with the Cadet program. I knew

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I wanted to fly through the cadet program

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before joining, so there was a bit of a strategic move

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where I lived in Diep in Moncton area.

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And there's, like, well, there's two or three huge

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100 member cadet squadrons there.

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Okay.

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I said, if you just go to a small town 20 minutes

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away, you might have a higher ODS of getting a flying

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scholarship. So I took that advice, and

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for six years, I just took a bit of a further

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drive to my cadet unit in Sackville,

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New Brunswick okay. And went through the steps to get my

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glider license there with a few good friends. Ashley

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Cadet, who's here today, uh, as glider

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set. And then we were again on the power course at the

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Moncton Flag College there. Then joined the

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forces in 2008, did my

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Phase One here in Portage 2010,

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started my Phase Two in Moosejaw

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and onto the King Air here in 2011 for

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my wings. And then that's where the military part of the

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career kind of started.

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So you're another guy that started out on air

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cadets, a firm. There's so many of us. It's,

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like, amazing the number of people that join the military

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and join the military as pilots through air cadets.

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Yeah.

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How did you find your flight training experience in the forces?

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I loved it. I think military flying training is

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pretty unique, and it's really neat being able to do

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right into military type, low level

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navigation, aerobatics formation flying.

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Yeah, totally.

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I loved all of it.

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Did you have any setbacks?

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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You get the odd test failure, and you're on

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phase two. Every flight matters, your

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score matters, and you get a test failure, and you're.

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Like, oh, no, my career is over 100%.

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But I think that's one of those things that everyone has to go through

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to realize you can have a bunch of bumps in the road and still

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get to have an amazing career and get to go where you want

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to go.

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Right. Did you have any tools that you used to get

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through those times just.

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To not stress about it, try to think, okay,

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every flight, wake up every day as though it's a new day,

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and, okay, today is a new flight, let's go out and do what I know

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how to do. If I'm worrying about what happened yesterday,

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it's not going to help with today, so just concentrate on this flight

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kind of thing.

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So you ended up as a tanker pilot on the herc.

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Was that what you were hoping to get?

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Not at all. So I think that's another lesson that I got, is

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that sometimes you get sent to an

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airframe or a community that you weren't expecting, and

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then when you get there, you realize that it's the best

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squadron in the CF, is the feeling, uh, that

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I had, and I think that happens to a lot of people. You get

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to your first unit, your new unit, and there's

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no bad cockpit in the CF, there's no bad

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squadron. Every squadron has a

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unique role and contributes differently

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to the greater picture. So I definitely feel like I

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won the lottery from, uh, going to four, three, five and flying the

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h model and doing the search and rescue otu.

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So all the search and rescue training, and then the moment I got

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to the unit, immediately started all the air to air

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refueling flying. So it was just the

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coolest six years.

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I loved it.

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So at four, three, five, because they are a rescue and tanker squadron,

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a firm, do you specialize in one or the other, or do you do

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both?

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You generally do, and it's changed every couple of years. You

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can either be dual quald they did like to stream

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members into one or the other because it's two complete different

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training plans. So I mainly just

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did tanking, and at the end, I started doing some search and

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rescue training just prior to moving on to

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moosejaw on the harvard there.

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Very cool. Yeah.

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So how did you end up on the snowbirds? Was that a lifelong goal or

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something that just formed along the way?

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Yeah, it's something I always wanted to do from

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being 1214 years old, going to air

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shows, and just anytime that the snowbirds were

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coming into Moncton, where I lived, you

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could see aircraft going to the airport. So we'd

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always hop in the car, drive to the fence and see what

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was going on. So I feel like it started there.

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And then in 2014, a good friend of mine, um, on

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Squadron, then moved on to the

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snowbirds. So as soon as that started, it was one of those things where I

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wanted to apply, okay, how do I work with you next

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year? And we went through the process and, um,

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basically to apply to do the role that I'm doing now.

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And in discussion with the Co, it was just best for

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my career to finish my tanker commander

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qualification prior to moving on to something else.

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So basically applied and then kind of retracted

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my application for a later date.

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Yeah.

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And that's just because it's generally viewed as

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best if a pilot finishes their upgrade

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process on their first posting a firm.

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Yeah.

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So I ended up staying on Squadron for another three years after

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upgrading, and that was the best way to do it.

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I was going to ask if you were glad that that was the advice that you got and that you

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took that.

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Oh, 100%. Yeah, absolutely. Then moving

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on to two years on the

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Harvard Instructing at the Big Two. On phase two. Phase two and Phase

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Three and the snowbirds are on the other side

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of the ramp, so you're a lot

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closer and you see a lot of your own

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instructors moving on to the team and you're like,

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okay, I think I could do that. And that's when the

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interest reignited of, like, okay, let's apply

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this year. Even a year before I thought I

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would apply it's like, okay, let's just put my name in this year and see what happens.

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Uh, and it worked out on the first.

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Yeah.

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Yeah, absolutely.

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So I just did this interview with Blake and he was telling me about how basically,

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when you try out, they might say, thanks for coming.

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They might say, you're in, or they might

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say, not this year, but come back.

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Yeah, exactly.

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And so on your first year, you got in.

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Yeah.

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And Blake McNaughton is also another big reason why

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I'm on the team. I feel like, know, poked me a couple times

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of, like, okay, yeah, you should probably, uh, put your name in. This would be a

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good so.

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That's funny.

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He had a very similar story about someone doing that for

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interesting.

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Yeah.

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Yeah. Well, mentorship, man, it gets passed down.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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He's the super snowbird.

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Yeah. I love Blake. He was one of my instructors at

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Moosejaws.

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Oh, nice.

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Yeah.

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It's very cool to see where he's been and where he's

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going. How did you find the tryout

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process to make the team?

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I loved it.

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Yeah?

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It's very unique. It's very

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stressful. It's designed to be

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stressful, uh, I think, but it was pretty cool

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to have never flown the jet. And

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your very first flight in the jet, you're

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flying in formation. So your first takeoff is a

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stream takeoff. So you're doing your own takeoff, but

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you immediately rejoin with another aircraft,

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another tutor, and then every flight after that is a

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formation takeoff and a formation landing.

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So, uh, you barely

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learn enough about the jet to fly it. It's more about,

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okay, can you taxi it, take off, fly form, land it's

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really just to assess how you're doing and what your

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learning curve, I guess.

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Mhm, is it's a good thing that you had been doing the

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instructing at the time then, and already doing formation flying

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regularly?

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Oh, absolutely. Yeah. I think without that, I guess,

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the recency of just being on an airframe that you're flying

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formalot, I think it would be more

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difficult in the tryout. But, uh,

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everybody is different. You might pop in there and

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just, uh, be a rock star and it would just flow naturally.

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Right.

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Yeah.

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Some people are just superstars.

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Yeah, exactly. Like yourself.

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I did all right. What kind of

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person makes a great snowbird?

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I think you can divide it

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into two parts. You have to be

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technically good at your job, good at

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the flying aspect, and then there's the whole

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public relations aspect of like,

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how are you going to be in a crowd, how are you going to

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interact with the public at the autograph line or

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interviews? That kind of thing.

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So you have to be a people person.

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Exactly. Yeah. So I think that part is, uh,

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just as important as the flying or the

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maintaining and the technical aspect of it.

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Yeah.

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It's funny because I think for a lot of people, that's easy to forget

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that you guys are a, uh, PR team, you're a relations

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team. That's your mission.

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Exactly.

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And so that interaction piece is so huge for you

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folks.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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When do you think is the right time to try out for the

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snowbirds?

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I think the right time to try out for the snowbirds is

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after complete your first tour on

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another airframe and then apply because

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you really want to have a base of experience

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prior to, uh, coming in. You

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also need an ejection seat tour.

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So you either have to be coming in from the fighter

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community or you need to have had an

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instructional tour on the Harvard of the Hawk kind of thing.

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I didn't realize that. I thought you had to have injection seat experience.

251
00:10:02.402 --> 00:10:05.308
So I thought going through as a student on the Harvard was

252
00:10:05.314 --> 00:10:07.656
enough. But you actually need to spend some time instructing.

253
00:10:07.768 --> 00:10:09.450
I'll have to look at the, uh.

254
00:10:09.450 --> 00:10:10.444
Oh, no, you're probably right.

255
00:10:10.482 --> 00:10:13.296
The loading message, it might be worded differently, but I think the

256
00:10:13.318 --> 00:10:16.204
idea is that you want to know generally

257
00:10:16.252 --> 00:10:19.250
more than your seven formation flights. And that makes,

258
00:10:19.250 --> 00:10:22.032
uh, your phase two on the Harvard. It's much

259
00:10:22.086 --> 00:10:25.056
better if you have instructed for a couple of years first or flown

260
00:10:25.088 --> 00:10:27.956
something else. I think anybody can do the

261
00:10:27.978 --> 00:10:30.244
job. I think if you have that

262
00:10:30.282 --> 00:10:32.820
recency, you're just going to catch on way

263
00:10:32.890 --> 00:10:35.440
quicker. And, uh, it certainly helps.

264
00:10:35.520 --> 00:10:38.312
What about time in life? Do you think there's a best time

265
00:10:38.366 --> 00:10:40.040
in life to kind of go for it?

266
00:10:40.190 --> 00:10:41.112
I don't think so.

267
00:10:41.166 --> 00:10:43.880
I think we have some of our pilots in their late twenty

268
00:10:43.950 --> 00:10:46.804
s and into your late

269
00:10:46.852 --> 00:10:49.690
40s. There's quite the range of, uh

270
00:10:49.982 --> 00:10:52.924
yeah, I don't think there's a good time. It's whatever the best

271
00:10:52.962 --> 00:10:54.156
time is for you, I think.

272
00:10:54.178 --> 00:10:54.364
Okay.

273
00:10:54.402 --> 00:10:57.324
I like that. So you mentioned this

274
00:10:57.362 --> 00:11:00.172
a little bit when we talked about who makes a good

275
00:11:00.226 --> 00:11:03.160
snowbird. You mentioned that proficiency is important, and then

276
00:11:03.170 --> 00:11:05.584
you said it's important that you're either a good pilot or a good

277
00:11:05.622 --> 00:11:08.256
technician. So can you tell us more about the relationship

278
00:11:08.358 --> 00:11:11.048
between pilots and technicians on the snowbirds?

279
00:11:11.244 --> 00:11:11.844
Absolutely.

280
00:11:11.962 --> 00:11:14.612
I think, uh, it really reminds me of

281
00:11:14.746 --> 00:11:17.556
my H model, herc days where

282
00:11:17.578 --> 00:11:20.564
you're flying with a variety of trades in

283
00:11:20.602 --> 00:11:23.528
your crew and where at the

284
00:11:23.534 --> 00:11:25.930
end of the day, you're traveling as a family.

285
00:11:26.780 --> 00:11:29.208
The rank relationship is

286
00:11:29.294 --> 00:11:31.816
nonexistent. In a way, you're all there to do a

287
00:11:31.838 --> 00:11:34.024
job, and the

288
00:11:34.062 --> 00:11:36.680
maintainer aspect is the most important

289
00:11:36.750 --> 00:11:39.720
part. So at the end of the day, I feel like it's

290
00:11:39.800 --> 00:11:42.764
their aircraft and they loan it to us for

291
00:11:42.802 --> 00:11:45.484
1 hour at a time. For us to do, uh, our job,

292
00:11:45.602 --> 00:11:48.076
it's very important we rely heavily on our

293
00:11:48.098 --> 00:11:48.712
technicians.

294
00:11:48.776 --> 00:11:49.004
Yeah.

295
00:11:49.042 --> 00:11:51.872
Do you find that you form some pretty close friendships through that?

296
00:11:51.926 --> 00:11:53.056
Very much so, yeah.

297
00:11:53.158 --> 00:11:55.072
When you transit, they fly with you?

298
00:11:55.206 --> 00:11:58.140
Generally speaking, yeah. We now have a support aircraft,

299
00:11:58.220 --> 00:12:00.944
so we're able to carry extra personnel. But

300
00:12:00.982 --> 00:12:03.824
generally the idea is that you would have eleven

301
00:12:03.872 --> 00:12:06.212
aircraft on the road with ten

302
00:12:06.266 --> 00:12:08.816
technicians and your public affairs officer

303
00:12:08.928 --> 00:12:11.524
occupying all 22, uh, seats in the air.

304
00:12:11.562 --> 00:12:11.812
Yeah.

305
00:12:11.866 --> 00:12:12.710
That's awesome.

306
00:12:13.340 --> 00:12:15.640
What does the advance in safety pilot job

307
00:12:15.710 --> 00:12:16.520
entail?

308
00:12:17.020 --> 00:12:19.652
Well, the safety

309
00:12:19.716 --> 00:12:22.584
pilot aspect is what Snowbird Ten

310
00:12:22.622 --> 00:12:25.370
and eleven do at Show Center,

311
00:12:25.740 --> 00:12:28.664
where you're on the radios. You've got

312
00:12:28.702 --> 00:12:31.608
four radios, you got your UHF VHF, you're monitoring

313
00:12:31.704 --> 00:12:34.504
the boss's frequency. You have a secondary.

314
00:12:34.632 --> 00:12:37.452
When you say boss, you're talking the air boss of an air show.

315
00:12:37.506 --> 00:12:38.780
So boss snowbird one.

316
00:12:38.850 --> 00:12:39.436
Okay, got it.

317
00:12:39.458 --> 00:12:42.256
And also the AirBoss. So that's another frequency as

318
00:12:42.278 --> 00:12:42.512
well.

319
00:12:42.566 --> 00:12:42.736
Yeah.

320
00:12:42.758 --> 00:12:45.664
And the air boss, for listeners is like the coordinator of the air

321
00:12:45.702 --> 00:12:45.904
show.

322
00:12:45.942 --> 00:12:46.530
Right.

323
00:12:47.700 --> 00:12:50.700
It's almost like air traffic control gives the air boss

324
00:12:50.780 --> 00:12:53.776
the airspace. During that four or five hour window,

325
00:12:53.808 --> 00:12:55.828
the air boss controls the air.

326
00:12:55.914 --> 00:12:56.308
Okay.

327
00:12:56.394 --> 00:12:59.204
And for our 30 to 40

328
00:12:59.242 --> 00:13:02.180
minutes portion of the show. The air boss basically

329
00:13:02.250 --> 00:13:04.644
gives the safety pilot the

330
00:13:04.682 --> 00:13:05.312
airspace.

331
00:13:05.376 --> 00:13:05.748
Okay.

332
00:13:05.834 --> 00:13:08.808
So they act as a little bit like a mini boss. And part of

333
00:13:08.814 --> 00:13:11.736
our training is that we do the air boss course as

334
00:13:11.758 --> 00:13:11.992
well.

335
00:13:12.046 --> 00:13:12.696
Very cool.

336
00:13:12.798 --> 00:13:15.176
And it's all about monitoring the

337
00:13:15.198 --> 00:13:17.924
radios. It's about helping with certain

338
00:13:17.982 --> 00:13:20.572
smoke errors or anything that might

339
00:13:20.706 --> 00:13:23.548
benefit the formation to speak up

340
00:13:23.634 --> 00:13:24.396
for the show.

341
00:13:24.498 --> 00:13:26.028
Can you give me an example of that?

342
00:13:26.114 --> 00:13:28.856
Well, very often, so we have two smoke

343
00:13:28.888 --> 00:13:31.424
tanks. So the most obvious one is that

344
00:13:31.622 --> 00:13:34.256
each member switches partway through the show.

345
00:13:34.358 --> 00:13:37.312
So if one member is

346
00:13:37.366 --> 00:13:40.316
puffing, if they're running out of smoke, it would be the safety

347
00:13:40.348 --> 00:13:43.316
polish job to say, okay, six puffing. And then they would

348
00:13:43.338 --> 00:13:45.812
switch sometimes inverted mid

349
00:13:45.866 --> 00:13:48.724
maneuver. It's pretty slick when it's done

350
00:13:48.842 --> 00:13:50.052
properly like that.

351
00:13:50.186 --> 00:13:51.108
That's very cool.

352
00:13:51.194 --> 00:13:54.064
And we're also there with our checklists if there was any need

353
00:13:54.122 --> 00:13:57.080
to deal with any sort of red, uh, page or yellow page

354
00:13:57.150 --> 00:13:59.768
emergency. And then we would clear the

355
00:13:59.774 --> 00:14:01.908
airspace and assist as required.

356
00:14:02.004 --> 00:14:02.650
Okay.

357
00:14:03.180 --> 00:14:05.704
My role this year, being the

358
00:14:05.742 --> 00:14:08.600
narrator, you're kind of monitoring what

359
00:14:08.670 --> 00:14:11.384
Snober Ten is doing, but you're also the connection

360
00:14:11.432 --> 00:14:14.396
to the audience. So if something is

361
00:14:14.418 --> 00:14:17.244
going on that is not part of the regular show, you'd be able to

362
00:14:17.282 --> 00:14:19.884
communicate that to the audience as well.

363
00:14:20.082 --> 00:14:21.200
Can I ask you a question?

364
00:14:21.270 --> 00:14:21.840
Yeah.

365
00:14:21.990 --> 00:14:24.256
Do you have like, an announcer voice that you use?

366
00:14:24.358 --> 00:14:25.184
100%.

367
00:14:25.302 --> 00:14:28.076
Introduce the snowbirds for me with your announcer voice.

368
00:14:28.268 --> 00:14:30.964
Oh, goodness. Well, I would

369
00:14:31.002 --> 00:14:33.952
say, uh, good afternoon,

370
00:14:34.016 --> 00:14:36.548
Portage la Prairie, your

371
00:14:36.634 --> 00:14:39.440
2023 Canadian

372
00:14:39.520 --> 00:14:42.516
forces snowbirds and then kind of move on

373
00:14:42.538 --> 00:14:44.710
with the rest of the script from there, but awesome.

374
00:14:45.080 --> 00:14:47.064
Anyway, that's going to make me sound.

375
00:14:47.102 --> 00:14:48.424
Funny, but no, you're good.

376
00:14:48.462 --> 00:14:50.104
Yeah, I love it.

377
00:14:50.142 --> 00:14:52.616
So tell me about the advanced portion of the job.

378
00:14:52.798 --> 00:14:55.700
That's really kind of the meat and potatoes

379
00:14:55.780 --> 00:14:58.728
of what Snover Ten and Eleven do. In a way, we're kind

380
00:14:58.734 --> 00:15:01.708
of like the band manager, the tour manager, in

381
00:15:01.714 --> 00:15:03.900
a way. If I want to put a tie into the music

382
00:15:03.970 --> 00:15:06.716
industry when it just comes to coordinating with

383
00:15:06.738 --> 00:15:09.640
aircraft control, show sites, hotels,

384
00:15:09.720 --> 00:15:12.492
cars, as required, even the advanced part,

385
00:15:12.546 --> 00:15:15.424
it would be just being ahead of the rest

386
00:15:15.462 --> 00:15:18.316
of the formation by an hour or two to make sure that everything's

387
00:15:18.348 --> 00:15:21.036
squared away on site prior to the rest of the team's

388
00:15:21.068 --> 00:15:23.616
arrival. Yeah, we kind of

389
00:15:23.638 --> 00:15:26.564
oversee everything to make sure that we have a smooth show

390
00:15:26.602 --> 00:15:27.056
season.

391
00:15:27.168 --> 00:15:27.732
Yeah.

392
00:15:27.866 --> 00:15:30.628
So I would imagine that that takes a certain type of person

393
00:15:30.794 --> 00:15:33.764
to do that and do it well. Attention to

394
00:15:33.802 --> 00:15:36.756
detail, someone who enjoys helping

395
00:15:36.788 --> 00:15:39.688
others. Am I on the right track with, uh, that? Yeah, I

396
00:15:39.694 --> 00:15:42.100
feel like some people's personalities wouldn't be well suited

397
00:15:42.180 --> 00:15:43.784
to doing that.

398
00:15:43.902 --> 00:15:46.856
It's similar to being an OPSO in a way.

399
00:15:47.038 --> 00:15:49.976
You're monitoring all the pieces of the puzzle. You're

400
00:15:50.008 --> 00:15:52.988
juggling, uh, everything that's being thrown at you. You make sure that

401
00:15:52.994 --> 00:15:55.550
it all falls into place at the right time.

402
00:15:56.880 --> 00:15:59.644
Does the advance in safety pilot go through the same tryout

403
00:15:59.692 --> 00:16:00.290
process?

404
00:16:00.660 --> 00:16:03.392
I think it depends on the

405
00:16:03.446 --> 00:16:06.336
individual. I think some members will go through the

406
00:16:06.358 --> 00:16:09.344
tryout process and the tryout process

407
00:16:09.382 --> 00:16:11.920
is all about seeing where people are best

408
00:16:11.990 --> 00:16:12.460
suited.

409
00:16:12.540 --> 00:16:12.832
Okay.

410
00:16:12.886 --> 00:16:15.812
But there also have been members who have been brought in

411
00:16:15.866 --> 00:16:18.624
specifically for the advanced and safety pilot

412
00:16:18.672 --> 00:16:21.636
where you wouldn't have to do that tryout, but you would

413
00:16:21.658 --> 00:16:24.400
have your own conversion course to fly the jet

414
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.352
and to fly the formation bits as well.

415
00:16:27.406 --> 00:16:30.228
So you can get headhunted basically as, uh, the advanced and safety

416
00:16:30.244 --> 00:16:30.996
pilot affirm.

417
00:16:31.028 --> 00:16:31.320
Yeah.

418
00:16:31.390 --> 00:16:34.116
Very cool. Can the advanced and safety

419
00:16:34.148 --> 00:16:36.920
pilot act as a backup if, say, one of the main

420
00:16:36.990 --> 00:16:39.836
members are sick or unavailable to fly for some

421
00:16:39.858 --> 00:16:40.236
reason?

422
00:16:40.338 --> 00:16:42.892
The way I like to answer this question is that

423
00:16:43.026 --> 00:16:45.756
everyone in the formation from

424
00:16:45.858 --> 00:16:48.524
one to eleven is trained to do their

425
00:16:48.562 --> 00:16:51.136
specific job where it would be

426
00:16:51.238 --> 00:16:54.112
very difficult for any member to be taken

427
00:16:54.166 --> 00:16:56.992
out and for someone else to just switch to do their

428
00:16:57.046 --> 00:17:00.016
job. Whether it's flying or aspects on the

429
00:17:00.038 --> 00:17:02.060
ground, everyone's trained to do their role.

430
00:17:02.140 --> 00:17:04.816
I guess your routines are so intricate that it would be extremely

431
00:17:04.848 --> 00:17:07.140
difficult. You would have to know every single

432
00:17:07.210 --> 00:17:09.828
pilot's job throughout the show.

433
00:17:09.914 --> 00:17:12.836
It probably not be very safe to exactly. To

434
00:17:12.858 --> 00:17:14.932
try to do that and to just fill in.

435
00:17:14.986 --> 00:17:15.408
Exactly.

436
00:17:15.514 --> 00:17:15.928
Okay.

437
00:17:16.014 --> 00:17:18.744
The advantage is that we also fly the

438
00:17:18.782 --> 00:17:21.336
extra jets so the spare jets. So if

439
00:17:21.358 --> 00:17:24.296
anything aircraft related prior to the show were to

440
00:17:24.318 --> 00:17:27.224
happen, we are able to have our jets be part of

441
00:17:27.262 --> 00:17:30.156
the show with the appropriate pilot for

442
00:17:30.178 --> 00:17:30.668
that position.

443
00:17:30.754 --> 00:17:33.452
Okay. If that happens, do they renumber them or

444
00:17:33.506 --> 00:17:35.948
does eleven go in the show?

445
00:17:36.034 --> 00:17:37.260
Eleven would go in the show.

446
00:17:37.330 --> 00:17:37.804
Okay. Yeah.

447
00:17:37.842 --> 00:17:38.648
Ten or eleven.

448
00:17:38.744 --> 00:17:39.870
Yeah. Right on.

449
00:17:40.480 --> 00:17:43.436
What's a day in the life of a snowbird pilot. And let's divide

450
00:17:43.468 --> 00:17:46.208
that into training and

451
00:17:46.374 --> 00:17:49.168
the show season because I know that those must be super different

452
00:17:49.254 --> 00:17:49.648
times.

453
00:17:49.734 --> 00:17:52.656
Okay. Training season. The

454
00:17:52.678 --> 00:17:55.516
team is booked for two to three flights per

455
00:17:55.558 --> 00:17:58.512
day. It depends on the week. Depends what the ops and maintenance

456
00:17:58.576 --> 00:18:01.236
schedule looks like for that week. But I think if you were to

457
00:18:01.258 --> 00:18:03.444
go, the 100%

458
00:18:03.642 --> 00:18:06.404
push would be two main formation

459
00:18:06.452 --> 00:18:08.520
flights per day plus one

460
00:18:08.670 --> 00:18:11.656
solo or any other member of the squad that needs

461
00:18:11.678 --> 00:18:14.456
an extra flight for like an IRT or something like

462
00:18:14.478 --> 00:18:14.760
that.

463
00:18:14.830 --> 00:18:15.064
Right.

464
00:18:15.102 --> 00:18:17.944
And for the listeners, an IRT is your yearly instrument

465
00:18:17.992 --> 00:18:18.584
qualification.

466
00:18:18.712 --> 00:18:19.900
Exactly. Yeah.

467
00:18:20.050 --> 00:18:21.932
That's crazy. Yeah, that's a lot.

468
00:18:21.986 --> 00:18:24.872
So you would aim for ten formation

469
00:18:24.936 --> 00:18:27.676
training flights per week for

470
00:18:27.778 --> 00:18:30.600
the team. But, uh,

471
00:18:30.600 --> 00:18:33.550
prairie winters, uh, do get in the way of that.

472
00:18:33.860 --> 00:18:36.416
That's a rarity to get all ten or anything close to that.

473
00:18:36.438 --> 00:18:37.008
Really.

474
00:18:37.174 --> 00:18:40.108
I want to loop back to what you were saying about two to three flights

475
00:18:40.124 --> 00:18:42.976
per day just so the audience can appreciate

476
00:18:43.168 --> 00:18:45.952
how intense that is because you folks aren't

477
00:18:46.016 --> 00:18:48.388
just doing straight and level

478
00:18:48.474 --> 00:18:51.236
or you're going to do some transits, obviously, for

479
00:18:51.258 --> 00:18:54.244
training and currency. But a lot of what you're

480
00:18:54.292 --> 00:18:56.970
doing is really intense. Pulling G

481
00:18:58.060 --> 00:19:00.824
concentration and high intensity. You

482
00:19:00.862 --> 00:19:03.048
must be exhausted by the end of the day.

483
00:19:03.214 --> 00:19:03.640
Yeah.

484
00:19:03.710 --> 00:19:06.250
And you think of each flight you have

485
00:19:06.620 --> 00:19:09.356
likely an hour, sometimes more of a

486
00:19:09.378 --> 00:19:11.964
brief and debrief on top

487
00:19:12.002 --> 00:19:14.792
of the 1 hour, 1.5 hours flight

488
00:19:14.856 --> 00:19:17.724
that you did. So each flight takes up

489
00:19:17.762 --> 00:19:20.704
a large chunk of your day. So if you're flying twice or three

490
00:19:20.742 --> 00:19:22.896
times, you're in for a long day.

491
00:19:22.998 --> 00:19:23.360
Yeah.

492
00:19:23.430 --> 00:19:26.112
That's amazing. That must be just

493
00:19:26.166 --> 00:19:28.400
exhausting. But I bet it's a good

494
00:19:28.550 --> 00:19:31.456
exhaustion because if you're there, nobody gets on the

495
00:19:31.478 --> 00:19:33.920
snowbirds without being passionate about being in the snowbirds.

496
00:19:34.080 --> 00:19:36.244
So you're doing what you love all day.

497
00:19:36.282 --> 00:19:39.076
Exactly. And then you sleep really well at night because you

498
00:19:39.098 --> 00:19:39.910
have to.

499
00:19:41.160 --> 00:19:43.196
That's training. What about the show season?

500
00:19:43.328 --> 00:19:45.960
The show season. So we basically train

501
00:19:46.030 --> 00:19:48.936
from November until the end

502
00:19:48.958 --> 00:19:51.844
of March or until Easter weekend. And the goal

503
00:19:51.892 --> 00:19:54.776
is to generally around that time of

504
00:19:54.798 --> 00:19:57.704
year, go to Comox for three weeks to then

505
00:19:57.742 --> 00:20:00.652
put the show together, if you will, with the same type

506
00:20:00.706 --> 00:20:03.596
of training schedule. So you're looking at two flights per day,

507
00:20:03.698 --> 00:20:06.636
or three, uh, if you need. And during that three

508
00:20:06.658 --> 00:20:09.548
week period, we'll aim to

509
00:20:09.634 --> 00:20:12.352
leave with a completed show to then

510
00:20:12.406 --> 00:20:15.392
present as the home opener back in Moosha or sometimes

511
00:20:15.446 --> 00:20:16.480
in Comox as well.

512
00:20:16.550 --> 00:20:18.736
Okay. Who designs the show?

513
00:20:18.918 --> 00:20:21.680
I believe it's the boss. Generally, I think everyone

514
00:20:21.750 --> 00:20:24.712
has input on what could happen, but really it's the boss's

515
00:20:24.796 --> 00:20:27.492
vision that puts the show together. Snowbird one.

516
00:20:27.546 --> 00:20:27.716
Yeah.

517
00:20:27.738 --> 00:20:30.676
And I imagine snowbird one is always somebody who's been on the team for a

518
00:20:30.698 --> 00:20:32.228
while and has the experience.

519
00:20:32.394 --> 00:20:34.936
Exactly. And once we do our

520
00:20:34.958 --> 00:20:36.920
acceptance show, your

521
00:20:37.070 --> 00:20:40.008
traditional year, we haven't had a normal year in

522
00:20:40.014 --> 00:20:42.824
the last four, uh, years due to COVID and

523
00:20:42.862 --> 00:20:45.732
everything else. But generally speaking, the

524
00:20:45.806 --> 00:20:48.156
snowbirds would do a

525
00:20:48.338 --> 00:20:51.308
weekend show and a Wednesday show.

526
00:20:51.394 --> 00:20:53.832
So you would, on Tuesday,

527
00:20:53.976 --> 00:20:56.636
transit to your Wednesday show, do your show on

528
00:20:56.658 --> 00:20:59.584
Wednesday, on Thursday, transit to your

529
00:20:59.622 --> 00:21:02.592
weekend show, and practice Friday, show

530
00:21:02.646 --> 00:21:05.424
Saturday, show Sunday, and then Monday is your

531
00:21:05.462 --> 00:21:08.444
maintenance day off. And the cycle

532
00:21:08.492 --> 00:21:11.024
goes on from basically

533
00:21:11.222 --> 00:21:12.876
May till October.

534
00:21:12.988 --> 00:21:15.828
So from May to October, you're getting about one day off

535
00:21:15.914 --> 00:21:16.564
a week.

536
00:21:16.682 --> 00:21:19.348
Generally speaking, this year is a little bit different. We're not doing

537
00:21:19.434 --> 00:21:22.180
midweeks, so we're getting a day or two extra

538
00:21:22.250 --> 00:21:25.092
at each show site, which really helps with

539
00:21:25.226 --> 00:21:28.216
public outreach. So that would have been a bit of an

540
00:21:28.238 --> 00:21:31.016
intense schedule for that amount of time. Uh, and

541
00:21:31.038 --> 00:21:33.864
generally we do get one weekend off in the summer as well

542
00:21:33.902 --> 00:21:35.816
for, uh, kind of your leave week.

543
00:21:35.918 --> 00:21:36.232
Okay.

544
00:21:36.286 --> 00:21:36.936
Yeah.

545
00:21:37.118 --> 00:21:38.720
It sounds intense.

546
00:21:38.900 --> 00:21:39.244
Yeah.

547
00:21:39.282 --> 00:21:42.104
And that goes all the way up to your season, closer

548
00:21:42.232 --> 00:21:44.892
mid or end October and right

549
00:21:44.946 --> 00:21:47.660
into the training for the next year. So it takes all

550
00:21:47.730 --> 00:21:50.190
twelve months to keep the cycle going. So, uh,

551
00:21:50.482 --> 00:21:53.328
it's never much of a break and it's never a

552
00:21:53.334 --> 00:21:53.744
dull moment.

553
00:21:53.782 --> 00:21:54.368
It's great.

554
00:21:54.454 --> 00:21:57.376
So, speaking of that yearly cycle, is it a new

555
00:21:57.398 --> 00:22:00.368
tryout every single year, or do members who

556
00:22:00.374 --> 00:22:03.248
are already on the team, do they have to try out again to

557
00:22:03.254 --> 00:22:05.252
be on the team the next year, or how does that work?

558
00:22:05.306 --> 00:22:08.150
No, once you're on the team, the tryout is

559
00:22:08.520 --> 00:22:10.790
aimed at finding new members

560
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:14.160
for, uh, the formation, for the team. And,

561
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:16.928
uh, if you only find one pilot that's

562
00:22:16.944 --> 00:22:19.736
suitable, that's who you're going to get for that year. So

563
00:22:19.758 --> 00:22:22.744
everyone else would remain in the formation kind of thing. And then

564
00:22:22.782 --> 00:22:25.624
you could, in theory, have up to four new pilots, uh, as well.

565
00:22:25.662 --> 00:22:28.248
So kind of half of the show formation.

566
00:22:28.344 --> 00:22:28.990
Okay.

567
00:22:30.080 --> 00:22:33.048
What did you find was the hardest part of being on the snowbirds

568
00:22:33.064 --> 00:22:34.110
when you first started?

569
00:22:35.040 --> 00:22:37.840
I'm going to have to think about that because honestly, uh,

570
00:22:37.840 --> 00:22:40.684
it's definitely not easy. But I think everything we

571
00:22:40.722 --> 00:22:43.720
do within the snowbirds is a bit of

572
00:22:43.730 --> 00:22:46.704
a challenge and I think I love that challenge. Mhm, so I think it's hard

573
00:22:46.742 --> 00:22:49.344
for me to think of something that's hard because I think I just love

574
00:22:49.382 --> 00:22:50.016
that.

575
00:22:50.198 --> 00:22:51.472
You like the hard stuff.

576
00:22:51.526 --> 00:22:51.840
Exactly.

577
00:22:51.910 --> 00:22:52.530
Yeah.

578
00:22:52.980 --> 00:22:55.924
Well, let me ask you this then, because my follow up is always,

579
00:22:55.962 --> 00:22:58.916
how did you overcome that? So what keeps you excited to

580
00:22:58.938 --> 00:23:00.310
keep doing the hard stuff?

581
00:23:00.840 --> 00:23:03.190
I'll draw a parallel to

582
00:23:03.580 --> 00:23:06.408
every show or practice we do.

583
00:23:06.494 --> 00:23:09.208
We record it. Mhm, so during the

584
00:23:09.214 --> 00:23:12.024
debrief, we're always looking at what errors were

585
00:23:12.062 --> 00:23:14.984
made and, uh, the goal is to just always do

586
00:23:15.102 --> 00:23:17.450
better on the next flight. So

587
00:23:17.820 --> 00:23:20.604
I think your question was how to overcome or how to deal

588
00:23:20.642 --> 00:23:23.324
with those challenges. I think you're always just trying

589
00:23:23.362 --> 00:23:26.316
to get better. So I think that's what

590
00:23:26.338 --> 00:23:29.196
you're focusing on. So every flight that

591
00:23:29.218 --> 00:23:31.632
you do or every experience you have is a great

592
00:23:31.686 --> 00:23:34.384
lesson to be better. The next show, the next

593
00:23:34.422 --> 00:23:37.376
flight, the next interaction, the next brief, whatever it

594
00:23:37.398 --> 00:23:40.144
is. So I think the overcoming part is

595
00:23:40.182 --> 00:23:42.804
just the motivation part of striving for

596
00:23:42.842 --> 00:23:43.700
excellence.

597
00:23:44.760 --> 00:23:47.684
It reminds me of the description of tryouts, right.

598
00:23:47.802 --> 00:23:50.452
That's something they instill in you from day one is

599
00:23:50.586 --> 00:23:53.220
be better, be better, always improve.

600
00:23:53.250 --> 00:23:55.208
Um, what would you say is your.

601
00:23:55.214 --> 00:23:57.400
Most memorable flight in the snowbirds?

602
00:23:57.820 --> 00:24:00.696
My most memorable flight, I

603
00:24:00.718 --> 00:24:03.512
think I always say, is a flight I did with

604
00:24:03.566 --> 00:24:06.556
Jen during Op Inspiration, where

605
00:24:06.578 --> 00:24:08.380
we were leaving Nova Scotia

606
00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:12.060
to overfly Pei.

607
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:15.384
The main formation was going to overfly Pei, then recover

608
00:24:15.432 --> 00:24:17.710
in Moncton for, um, a fuel stop.

609
00:24:18.500 --> 00:24:20.850
So Jen and I

610
00:24:21.620 --> 00:24:24.476
took off after the formation.

611
00:24:24.668 --> 00:24:27.264
We went over to Pei, kind of

612
00:24:27.302 --> 00:24:30.140
overflow the bridge, then came back. I overflow

613
00:24:30.220 --> 00:24:32.880
Sackville, New Brunswick, my old cadet town.

614
00:24:33.040 --> 00:24:33.700
Very cool.

615
00:24:33.770 --> 00:24:36.612
Was able to smoke one jet over the city,

616
00:24:36.746 --> 00:24:39.652
a circle or two and then head up towards

617
00:24:39.706 --> 00:24:42.500
Moncton and, uh, just that route basically

618
00:24:42.570 --> 00:24:45.528
overflow the road that I grew up on. So

619
00:24:45.534 --> 00:24:48.248
I was able to overfly my house and

620
00:24:48.334 --> 00:24:50.852
overfly the city of Moncton Diep

621
00:24:50.996 --> 00:24:53.736
and land in Moncton, where I did all of

622
00:24:53.758 --> 00:24:56.568
my private pilot training at the

623
00:24:56.574 --> 00:24:59.084
Moncton flight college. And it's op

624
00:24:59.122 --> 00:25:01.916
inspiration. It was early in the op inspiration, but

625
00:25:01.938 --> 00:25:04.876
we land and there was probably 200 people at the

626
00:25:04.898 --> 00:25:07.564
fence there to watch us, uh, just

627
00:25:07.602 --> 00:25:10.364
refuel, do our thing and take off again. And my parents were

628
00:25:10.402 --> 00:25:13.084
there, my brother was there, and it was my mom's birthday.

629
00:25:13.132 --> 00:25:16.128
So there's just a lot of elements there that it's like, I

630
00:25:16.134 --> 00:25:18.880
got to overfly my house, my old cadet town.

631
00:25:19.220 --> 00:25:19.920
Yeah.

632
00:25:20.070 --> 00:25:22.076
That's my most memorable flight of my career.

633
00:25:22.108 --> 00:25:22.912
I think that's so cool.

634
00:25:22.966 --> 00:25:24.316
Yeah, it was a good memory.

635
00:25:24.508 --> 00:25:27.444
How neat is it to be back at the airport where you

636
00:25:27.482 --> 00:25:29.972
were just struggling to fly a single engine

637
00:25:30.026 --> 00:25:32.896
prop? You know what I mean? When you're a brand new baby

638
00:25:32.928 --> 00:25:35.876
pilot trying to remember your checklist and stuff, and then to

639
00:25:35.898 --> 00:25:38.568
be back there, who would have thought you would be back there as a

640
00:25:38.574 --> 00:25:39.044
snowbird?

641
00:25:39.092 --> 00:25:39.592
Yeah.

642
00:25:39.726 --> 00:25:42.664
And we had Moncton and Dip was

643
00:25:42.702 --> 00:25:45.576
one of our show sites this year. So

644
00:25:45.758 --> 00:25:48.696
I kind of had that moment again where we're parked at

645
00:25:48.718 --> 00:25:51.496
the ramp right next to the Moncton Flight college. The Moncton Flight

646
00:25:51.528 --> 00:25:54.220
College were basically our hosts there.

647
00:25:54.370 --> 00:25:57.116
So it's 2023. I did my private license in

648
00:25:57.138 --> 00:25:59.770
2003. So 20 years after having, uh,

649
00:26:00.210 --> 00:26:03.152
started flying at MFC there, pretty cool

650
00:26:03.206 --> 00:26:05.968
to be bringing the team back to

651
00:26:06.134 --> 00:26:09.056
where it all started for me. And to watch kids on the other

652
00:26:09.078 --> 00:26:12.064
side of the fence there, where it's like, okay, 25

653
00:26:12.102 --> 00:26:13.236
years ago, that was me.

654
00:26:13.338 --> 00:26:14.736
That might be another snowbird.

655
00:26:14.768 --> 00:26:15.590
Yeah, exactly.

656
00:26:16.280 --> 00:26:19.124
So what's the craziest situation you've had to deal with

657
00:26:19.162 --> 00:26:21.140
as the advanced and safety pilot?

658
00:26:21.480 --> 00:26:23.512
I feel like there's always crazy

659
00:26:23.566 --> 00:26:26.008
situations. Coordination wise, I

660
00:26:26.014 --> 00:26:28.360
think one crazy

661
00:26:28.430 --> 00:26:31.176
situation would have been it was in

662
00:26:31.198 --> 00:26:34.004
Kamloops the day before the know, jen

663
00:26:34.052 --> 00:26:37.032
and I land ahead of the team. The team lands. I

664
00:26:37.086 --> 00:26:39.292
coordinated everywhere we go. We need

665
00:26:39.346 --> 00:26:42.316
oxygen, we need diesel. So a lot of these sort

666
00:26:42.338 --> 00:26:45.176
of non standard requests for a lot of aircraft

667
00:26:45.208 --> 00:26:47.390
that go in operating out of, uh,

668
00:26:47.390 --> 00:26:48.344
FBOs.

669
00:26:48.472 --> 00:26:51.408
And for the listeners, FBO is, uh, actually, I

670
00:26:51.414 --> 00:26:52.592
don't know what FBO stands for.

671
00:26:52.646 --> 00:26:53.852
Fixed base operator.

672
00:26:53.916 --> 00:26:56.556
Oh, there you go. Fixed base operator. It's basically a gas

673
00:26:56.588 --> 00:26:57.804
station for airplanes.

674
00:26:57.852 --> 00:26:58.450
Yeah.

675
00:26:58.950 --> 00:27:01.872
Uh, if you have your own aircraft, uh, that's where you

676
00:27:01.926 --> 00:27:03.772
gas up your plane and park.

677
00:27:03.836 --> 00:27:04.016
Yeah.

678
00:27:04.038 --> 00:27:05.716
And get hanger space or whatever you need.

679
00:27:05.818 --> 00:27:08.756
And I, uh, think the weird part is

680
00:27:08.778 --> 00:27:11.604
that Kamloops is not the biggest airport. There

681
00:27:11.642 --> 00:27:14.010
aren't that many providers of these services.

682
00:27:14.460 --> 00:27:17.444
And there was one hangar,

683
00:27:17.572 --> 00:27:20.090
one provider that could provide our

684
00:27:20.700 --> 00:27:23.316
oxygen and diesel,

685
00:27:23.508 --> 00:27:26.456
but it wasn't where we got our fuel. And it's like. If

686
00:27:26.478 --> 00:27:29.304
we parked on their part of the ramp, they could bill

687
00:27:29.342 --> 00:27:32.236
us for parking. We take up a lot of room. So we ended up just

688
00:27:32.258 --> 00:27:35.036
parking on the main apron. And as soon as we

689
00:27:35.058 --> 00:27:38.056
landed, he was like, well, you guys didn't park on my ramp.

690
00:27:38.168 --> 00:27:39.024
So I was like, oh no, yeah.

691
00:27:39.062 --> 00:27:41.904
No apologies, we need to park here, unfortunately. And

692
00:27:41.942 --> 00:27:44.848
then that person then proceeded to

693
00:27:45.014 --> 00:27:48.000
hang up the phone, not bring us our

694
00:27:48.070 --> 00:27:50.508
oxygen or nitrogen or diesel.

695
00:27:50.604 --> 00:27:50.960
No.

696
00:27:51.030 --> 00:27:53.936
So we're basically now stuck at that airport because we need

697
00:27:53.958 --> 00:27:56.916
all of those elements to take off the next day. So then

698
00:27:56.938 --> 00:27:59.796
I'm trying to phone him back. He left the airfield. He

699
00:27:59.818 --> 00:28:02.304
was not happy with us that we didn't park on his ramp.

700
00:28:02.352 --> 00:28:04.710
So there was a misunderstanding there, obviously.

701
00:28:05.260 --> 00:28:08.008
And, uh, he was not willing to help

702
00:28:08.094 --> 00:28:10.936
us out. So I had to call other

703
00:28:10.958 --> 00:28:13.864
airports. We had to have, um, oxygen and

704
00:28:13.902 --> 00:28:16.804
nitrogen trucked in from 2 hours away in other airports.

705
00:28:16.852 --> 00:28:19.836
So it was a very exciting evening of trying to

706
00:28:19.858 --> 00:28:22.796
put all that together so that we could leave the next day. So that

707
00:28:22.818 --> 00:28:25.756
was stressful, uh, and rewarding when it

708
00:28:25.778 --> 00:28:26.620
all worked out too.

709
00:28:26.690 --> 00:28:29.116
Oh my gosh, that is actually

710
00:28:29.218 --> 00:28:30.444
legit crazy.

711
00:28:30.562 --> 00:28:31.230
Yeah.

712
00:28:31.780 --> 00:28:34.656
It's not a flying story, but I was just

713
00:28:34.678 --> 00:28:37.504
so surprised of like, oh, well, we now can't leave here,

714
00:28:37.542 --> 00:28:39.440
so how do I fix this?

715
00:28:39.510 --> 00:28:42.324
Well, that's exactly the kind of story I was hoping for, though. I wanted

716
00:28:42.362 --> 00:28:45.216
to know. I'm sure you folks deal with all kinds

717
00:28:45.248 --> 00:28:47.872
of unexpected wrinkles in plans

718
00:28:47.936 --> 00:28:50.756
and, uh, logistics and all kinds of

719
00:28:50.778 --> 00:28:51.300
different things.

720
00:28:51.370 --> 00:28:53.430
Yeah, that was one of them.

721
00:28:55.560 --> 00:28:58.456
Normally we ask what your hardest day was in the RCAF, but

722
00:28:58.478 --> 00:29:01.416
you and I both know the answer to that. After the

723
00:29:01.438 --> 00:29:04.404
crash of Stalker 22, and with Canadians everywhere

724
00:29:04.452 --> 00:29:07.444
struggling during the COVID-19 lockdowns, the Snowbirds began

725
00:29:07.492 --> 00:29:10.396
a cross country tour of flypass to raise the country spirits as

726
00:29:10.418 --> 00:29:13.276
part of Operation Inspiration. You mentioned a

727
00:29:13.298 --> 00:29:15.756
crash on May 17, 2020 in

728
00:29:15.778 --> 00:29:18.652
Kamloops, BC. The tutor in which Rich and Team Public

729
00:29:18.706 --> 00:29:21.628
Affairs Officer Jen Casey were taking off hit a bird

730
00:29:21.724 --> 00:29:24.304
leading to a low level Ejection. Jen did not

731
00:29:24.342 --> 00:29:27.330
survive. How did that day start for you?

732
00:29:28.260 --> 00:29:31.056
Well, that day started, I think, with a

733
00:29:31.078 --> 00:29:33.636
walk through the park adjacent to our

734
00:29:33.658 --> 00:29:36.336
hotel and we grabbed some nitro cold

735
00:29:36.368 --> 00:29:39.364
brews and headed to the FBO. I think

736
00:29:39.402 --> 00:29:42.256
we were planning to overfly Kamloops

737
00:29:42.288 --> 00:29:45.268
and other areas, but the weather just wasn't going to cooperate with

738
00:29:45.274 --> 00:29:48.136
us that day. So we just

739
00:29:48.158 --> 00:29:50.884
all went to the more it wasn't

740
00:29:50.932 --> 00:29:53.880
IFR, but it was, uh, more of a lower cloud day.

741
00:29:53.950 --> 00:29:56.252
So we kind of just knocked our plan off

742
00:29:56.386 --> 00:29:58.636
and just decided to go directly to

743
00:29:58.658 --> 00:30:01.460
Comox. So, um,

744
00:30:01.460 --> 00:30:04.300
we're all there at the FBO planning for

745
00:30:04.370 --> 00:30:06.520
that. And then Major, uh,

746
00:30:06.850 --> 00:30:09.224
Wicket, who was flying the other aircraft,

747
00:30:09.352 --> 00:30:12.256
and myself and Jen, uh, and

748
00:30:12.278 --> 00:30:15.152
one of our maintainers were heading out to the aircraft to

749
00:30:15.206 --> 00:30:18.204
depart an hour or so before the rest of the formation,

750
00:30:18.252 --> 00:30:20.820
and that's the rest is history, I guess.

751
00:30:20.890 --> 00:30:22.500
Yeah. So just a normal morning.

752
00:30:22.570 --> 00:30:23.510
Yeah, exactly.

753
00:30:24.760 --> 00:30:27.664
Can you take us through that takeoff and your experiences

754
00:30:27.792 --> 00:30:29.380
through the following events?

755
00:30:29.880 --> 00:30:32.870
Yeah, so I'll go through it

756
00:30:32.880 --> 00:30:35.784
ah. As well as I can. There still

757
00:30:35.822 --> 00:30:38.772
are elements that haven't fully

758
00:30:38.836 --> 00:30:41.256
come back, so there's, like, chunks of the flight that

759
00:30:41.278 --> 00:30:44.248
are more, um, of an image than a

760
00:30:44.254 --> 00:30:46.756
memory. But, yeah, it was just a normal

761
00:30:46.788 --> 00:30:49.300
takeoff. I was number two. So,

762
00:30:49.300 --> 00:30:51.816
uh, snober ten is leading,

763
00:30:51.928 --> 00:30:54.780
so I'm not looking ahead. Your eyes are glued,

764
00:30:54.780 --> 00:30:57.324
uh, to the right for me, to the lead

765
00:30:57.362 --> 00:30:57.960
aircraft.

766
00:30:58.040 --> 00:30:58.236
Yeah.

767
00:30:58.258 --> 00:31:01.104
And just if I could just jump in for a moment. For

768
00:31:01.142 --> 00:31:04.016
listeners who haven't flown formation before, there's a

769
00:31:04.038 --> 00:31:06.864
lead plane, and anyone who's not the lead is

770
00:31:06.902 --> 00:31:09.740
just staring at the person they need to keep station

771
00:31:09.820 --> 00:31:12.676
on. Um, they're making all their adjustments based

772
00:31:12.698 --> 00:31:15.124
on what the other person does with power and

773
00:31:15.162 --> 00:31:17.936
control, and they aren't

774
00:31:17.968 --> 00:31:20.032
looking anywhere else but at that other plane.

775
00:31:20.176 --> 00:31:20.724
That's right.

776
00:31:20.762 --> 00:31:23.492
So we're on the

777
00:31:23.546 --> 00:31:26.536
takeoff. Roll the takeoff. We clean up the aircraft, and

778
00:31:26.558 --> 00:31:29.352
it's pretty much at the gear up, flaps up

779
00:31:29.486 --> 00:31:32.456
confirmation, literally at

780
00:31:32.478 --> 00:31:35.416
the end of the runway, the departure end

781
00:31:35.438 --> 00:31:37.790
of the runway at

782
00:31:38.480 --> 00:31:41.372
around 160 knots and

783
00:31:41.426 --> 00:31:43.630
100ft off the ground, which is not

784
00:31:44.080 --> 00:31:46.620
that's not very fast for our aircraft.

785
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:50.032
That, uh I just kind of

786
00:31:50.086 --> 00:31:53.008
felt it almost kind of felt like an explosion in a

787
00:31:53.014 --> 00:31:55.660
way. Like, it was a very large bang

788
00:31:55.740 --> 00:31:57.730
and rumbling sound,

789
00:31:58.580 --> 00:32:01.444
and it was a very small

790
00:32:01.482 --> 00:32:04.132
bird. I didn't see it, uh, from the angle that I was

791
00:32:04.186 --> 00:32:06.980
looking, but Jen yelled the word bird,

792
00:32:07.560 --> 00:32:10.196
and, uh, at that point,

793
00:32:10.298 --> 00:32:12.964
you go through your red page,

794
00:32:13.082 --> 00:32:16.020
checklist response items, and

795
00:32:16.170 --> 00:32:18.664
basically what you're just looking to do at that point is

796
00:32:18.702 --> 00:32:21.576
exchange kinetic energy for potential energy. So

797
00:32:21.598 --> 00:32:24.040
you want to exchange whatever air speed you have for whatever

798
00:32:24.110 --> 00:32:26.756
altitude you can get. So you're kind of zooming straight

799
00:32:26.788 --> 00:32:29.768
ahead, slightly away from lead, because the

800
00:32:29.774 --> 00:32:32.748
moment you're away from lead, you don't know where they are. So for safety, you want to

801
00:32:32.754 --> 00:32:35.676
create a little bit of a buffer. And at that

802
00:32:35.698 --> 00:32:38.284
point, the moment it happened,

803
00:32:38.482 --> 00:32:41.048
you're just at 100ft. I just kind of

804
00:32:41.074 --> 00:32:44.060
see a bunch of roofs of houses

805
00:32:44.140 --> 00:32:46.832
in front of me. And even in just that, like, half

806
00:32:46.886 --> 00:32:49.728
second, as the impact had just happened, I already kind

807
00:32:49.734 --> 00:32:52.592
of saw, uh, a change in my

808
00:32:52.646 --> 00:32:55.444
energy vector, where it was like, okay, well, immediately it

809
00:32:55.482 --> 00:32:58.212
looked like I was about to plow through,

810
00:32:58.266 --> 00:33:01.256
like, five, six houses kind of thing. So I

811
00:33:01.258 --> 00:33:04.244
was like, okay, well, evidently, I don't want to do that.

812
00:33:04.282 --> 00:33:07.256
So I know that there's more of a field to the

813
00:33:07.278 --> 00:33:10.020
left. There's not a neighborhood

814
00:33:10.100 --> 00:33:12.916
everywhere. So I was like, okay, I'm going to try to deviate

815
00:33:12.948 --> 00:33:14.488
slightly left.

816
00:33:14.654 --> 00:33:17.048
And at this point, did you know, like, the engine is

817
00:33:17.134 --> 00:33:17.816
gone.

818
00:33:17.998 --> 00:33:20.644
I knew I wasn't getting thrust

819
00:33:20.772 --> 00:33:23.372
or effective thrust. And from talking

820
00:33:23.426 --> 00:33:26.396
to the lead, he basically said it literally looked like

821
00:33:26.418 --> 00:33:28.896
you just started going backwards. Like it was just an

822
00:33:28.918 --> 00:33:29.744
immediate just.

823
00:33:29.782 --> 00:33:30.944
A loss of power.

824
00:33:31.142 --> 00:33:33.836
And at that point, there's

825
00:33:33.868 --> 00:33:36.624
probably three, 4 seconds that I still

826
00:33:36.662 --> 00:33:39.648
don't remember at all. But I

827
00:33:39.654 --> 00:33:42.596
do remember the point at which we needed to get out

828
00:33:42.618 --> 00:33:45.604
of the aircraft and we were very low

829
00:33:45.642 --> 00:33:48.516
level. And then when it came to the point

830
00:33:48.538 --> 00:33:51.364
of getting out of the aircraft for myself, I

831
00:33:51.402 --> 00:33:53.956
just remember an

832
00:33:53.978 --> 00:33:56.836
entire second went by where you think, that's not a lot of time,

833
00:33:56.858 --> 00:33:59.608
but it's almost like time froze for a moment

834
00:33:59.694 --> 00:34:02.168
where I didn't feel the seat, I didn't feel the

835
00:34:02.174 --> 00:34:04.696
parachute. I just kind of felt like I was tumbling through the

836
00:34:04.718 --> 00:34:05.336
air.

837
00:34:05.518 --> 00:34:06.250
And.

838
00:34:08.540 --> 00:34:11.036
That'S it moment. It was like, okay, well, I'm just

839
00:34:11.058 --> 00:34:11.820
falling.

840
00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:14.616
So you've already pulled the handles.

841
00:34:14.728 --> 00:34:15.244
Exactly.

842
00:34:15.362 --> 00:34:17.790
And what did that feel like when you pulled those?

843
00:34:18.180 --> 00:34:21.152
I remember from speaking with people who

844
00:34:21.206 --> 00:34:24.188
had ejected previously and recently,

845
00:34:24.364 --> 00:34:27.328
what they had described. So it's interesting

846
00:34:27.414 --> 00:34:30.144
what goes through your mind in 0.1

847
00:34:30.182 --> 00:34:32.960
2nd, uh, as you're actioning something, but

848
00:34:33.110 --> 00:34:36.036
I remember the thought of, like, okay, well, I'm going to

849
00:34:36.058 --> 00:34:38.996
want to watch what's going on. The

850
00:34:39.018 --> 00:34:41.876
intent was to your eyes are open. You want to pay

851
00:34:41.898 --> 00:34:44.384
attention so you can report back what you're

852
00:34:44.512 --> 00:34:47.332
seeing, and all of that is gone. Like, I just literally remember

853
00:34:47.386 --> 00:34:49.944
being out of the aircraft at that point. Like, I remember

854
00:34:49.982 --> 00:34:52.388
reaching down, and I remember being out of and then you're.

855
00:34:52.404 --> 00:34:53.124
Out of the aircraft.

856
00:34:53.172 --> 00:34:54.024
Exactly. Wow.

857
00:34:54.142 --> 00:34:57.084
I don't remember the Ejection force at

858
00:34:57.122 --> 00:35:00.024
all. And after what felt like tumbling

859
00:35:00.072 --> 00:35:02.632
for a bit, I do remember the feeling

860
00:35:02.696 --> 00:35:05.484
of a parachute unraveling or

861
00:35:05.522 --> 00:35:08.444
something going into the airstream that

862
00:35:08.482 --> 00:35:11.356
was starting to slow me down. So I remember,

863
00:35:11.458 --> 00:35:14.304
okay, the parachute is opening. So we

864
00:35:14.342 --> 00:35:17.324
all did our training. Uh, a lot of the pilots

865
00:35:17.372 --> 00:35:19.872
in the forces did their training, ejection sheet training

866
00:35:19.926 --> 00:35:22.864
with, uh, Mario mhm. So I remember, okay, look

867
00:35:22.902 --> 00:35:25.764
up and see if you have a canopy or what you have. And I just

868
00:35:25.802 --> 00:35:28.628
remember sort of fabric kind

869
00:35:28.634 --> 00:35:31.476
of moving away from me. Your fabric behind me is like,

870
00:35:31.498 --> 00:35:33.424
okay, something is starting to action.

871
00:35:33.552 --> 00:35:36.052
So you could see the parachute, but you didn't have a canopy

872
00:35:36.116 --> 00:35:36.900
deployed.

873
00:35:37.060 --> 00:35:39.928
I can't even say that I saw the parachute. I think I just saw stuff

874
00:35:40.014 --> 00:35:42.600
moving backward kind of thing, or stuff behind

875
00:35:42.670 --> 00:35:45.224
me. And then your

876
00:35:45.342 --> 00:35:47.912
next thought is, okay, I need to look down and see what's going on below

877
00:35:47.966 --> 00:35:50.604
me. And I just looked down and

878
00:35:50.802 --> 00:35:53.756
didn't even take half a second. It was like, oh, that's a

879
00:35:53.778 --> 00:35:56.524
roof. And just boom. Uh, I just remember looking down and

880
00:35:56.562 --> 00:35:57.580
colliding with a roof.

881
00:35:57.650 --> 00:35:58.316
Yeah.

882
00:35:58.498 --> 00:36:01.452
So I collided in this seated position.

883
00:36:01.586 --> 00:36:04.460
I still had my seat pack on that's attached.

884
00:36:04.820 --> 00:36:07.568
It's like a fiberglass box that you're sitting on with a bunch of

885
00:36:07.574 --> 00:36:10.400
survival equipment and a raft, uh, et cetera.

886
00:36:11.240 --> 00:36:14.052
And I remember everything very clearly after

887
00:36:14.106 --> 00:36:14.708
that.

888
00:36:14.874 --> 00:36:17.764
So before we jump into that, at that

889
00:36:17.802 --> 00:36:20.304
point, uh, you eject jen

890
00:36:20.352 --> 00:36:23.156
ejects do m you guys have any idea where each

891
00:36:23.178 --> 00:36:25.796
other are? Or boom, you're on your separate

892
00:36:25.828 --> 00:36:26.680
trajectories.

893
00:36:27.500 --> 00:36:30.424
You have no concept of where you're going. You have no concept of

894
00:36:30.462 --> 00:36:33.130
whatever else is happening around you for sure.

895
00:36:33.500 --> 00:36:36.328
So you've hit the roof, and what happens next?

896
00:36:36.494 --> 00:36:38.320
Well, uh,

897
00:36:39.500 --> 00:36:42.360
it's emotional to think about it because it was a pretty traumatic event. Uh,

898
00:36:42.720 --> 00:36:45.512
but it was just excruciating pain. It was just instant.

899
00:36:45.576 --> 00:36:48.476
Like, it just felt like I had broken every bone in

900
00:36:48.498 --> 00:36:50.832
my body. It just felt like I had just

901
00:36:50.886 --> 00:36:53.856
shattered my entire back. I definitely felt like I

902
00:36:53.878 --> 00:36:56.704
had just shattered my feet. So

903
00:36:56.742 --> 00:36:58.240
I just remember screaming

904
00:36:59.140 --> 00:37:02.076
uncontrollably, but then a few seconds

905
00:37:02.108 --> 00:37:05.024
later, you're like, okay, all right. I catch my

906
00:37:05.062 --> 00:37:07.956
breath, but then it's like, okay, now I'm just going to keep screaming because

907
00:37:07.978 --> 00:37:10.832
I had the essay. I was like, okay, well, if I'm making noise,

908
00:37:10.896 --> 00:37:12.400
someone will know that I'm here.

909
00:37:12.400 --> 00:37:13.280
Mhm.

910
00:37:13.280 --> 00:37:16.216
I also remember a little bit of the parachute kind of

911
00:37:16.238 --> 00:37:19.236
draping over my head. I didn't

912
00:37:19.268 --> 00:37:22.170
know if I could move at that point. So

913
00:37:22.540 --> 00:37:24.970
just from first aid training and having

914
00:37:25.340 --> 00:37:28.248
my mom is a physiotherapist and hearing about a

915
00:37:28.254 --> 00:37:31.208
bunch of trauma situations previously, I was like, okay, I'm

916
00:37:31.224 --> 00:37:33.468
going to wiggle my toes, wiggle my fingers. Am I

917
00:37:33.474 --> 00:37:36.204
paralyzed? No, I can wiggle everything

918
00:37:36.322 --> 00:37:39.144
okay. But I was kind of, like, arms

919
00:37:39.192 --> 00:37:41.952
bent. I didn't really want to move anything because

920
00:37:42.006 --> 00:37:44.956
everything hurt. So I kind of just moved

921
00:37:44.988 --> 00:37:47.584
my wrist to kind of try to pull the parachute away from

922
00:37:47.622 --> 00:37:50.416
my face, because

923
00:37:50.438 --> 00:37:53.276
I do remember hearing the other jet flying above

924
00:37:53.308 --> 00:37:56.308
me. So it was like, okay, I'd like to see or like, maybe if I'm moving a

925
00:37:56.314 --> 00:37:58.932
bit, he'll know that I'm okay. And then it was almost

926
00:37:58.986 --> 00:38:01.828
immediately that someone was on the

927
00:38:01.834 --> 00:38:04.596
roof with me in my face, asking me if I'm

928
00:38:04.628 --> 00:38:05.210
okay.

929
00:38:05.580 --> 00:38:07.448
This is like a civilian yeah.

930
00:38:07.534 --> 00:38:10.456
In the neighborhood. And I believe they

931
00:38:10.478 --> 00:38:12.884
were, uh, an off duty first responder.

932
00:38:12.932 --> 00:38:13.528
Wow.

933
00:38:13.694 --> 00:38:16.264
So immediately I had all the right

934
00:38:16.302 --> 00:38:19.064
people with me. And within two,

935
00:38:19.102 --> 00:38:22.076
three minutes, I already had two other squadron members on the

936
00:38:22.098 --> 00:38:24.956
roof with me, just because it was so

937
00:38:24.978 --> 00:38:25.960
close to the airport.

938
00:38:26.040 --> 00:38:28.796
It must have been good, though, to see some familiar faces at that

939
00:38:28.818 --> 00:38:29.112
point.

940
00:38:29.186 --> 00:38:32.156
Yeah, it was almost confusing.

941
00:38:32.188 --> 00:38:34.290
It was like, what are you doing here?

942
00:38:35.300 --> 00:38:38.288
So immediately you're able to have a bit of

943
00:38:38.294 --> 00:38:40.944
smile on your face and kind of forget what just

944
00:38:40.982 --> 00:38:43.696
happened. So that right. There

945
00:38:43.798 --> 00:38:46.644
was a lifesaver for those people to be there on the roof

946
00:38:46.682 --> 00:38:49.044
with me. And they were with

947
00:38:49.082 --> 00:38:51.972
me. One of them was with me all the way

948
00:38:52.106 --> 00:38:54.890
to that evening, uh, in the hospital. So

949
00:38:55.580 --> 00:38:58.456
I remember the fire crew had come

950
00:38:58.478 --> 00:39:01.416
onto the roof. They cut everything off of

951
00:39:01.438 --> 00:39:04.376
your body. They cut your boots off. They tried to remove the

952
00:39:04.398 --> 00:39:06.776
boots, and by untying, I was like,

953
00:39:06.798 --> 00:39:08.970
no, you're not doing that.

954
00:39:11.520 --> 00:39:14.136
They placed me onto neck

955
00:39:14.168 --> 00:39:17.052
brace, body brace. I was on a stretcher. And

956
00:39:17.106 --> 00:39:19.900
I just remember at that point, I had nothing

957
00:39:19.970 --> 00:39:22.560
on, and they were about to move me,

958
00:39:22.710 --> 00:39:25.616
and I just kind of had the idea. I was like,

959
00:39:25.638 --> 00:39:28.032
hey, are you able to cover me up a little?

960
00:39:28.086 --> 00:39:29.244
Like you were naked, literally.

961
00:39:29.292 --> 00:39:29.840
Yeah.

962
00:39:29.990 --> 00:39:32.828
So the crew that

963
00:39:32.854 --> 00:39:35.616
was there, he kind of chuckled. He's like, okay, if you're

964
00:39:35.648 --> 00:39:38.230
cracking jokes and you're worried about that, you'll be fine.

965
00:39:39.940 --> 00:39:42.644
Uh, and then was brought to the hospital after

966
00:39:42.682 --> 00:39:43.136
that.

967
00:39:43.258 --> 00:39:44.840
Okay. It all happened.

968
00:39:44.910 --> 00:39:46.744
Seemed very quickly.

969
00:39:46.862 --> 00:39:47.572
That's intense.

970
00:39:47.636 --> 00:39:48.250
Yeah.

971
00:39:48.940 --> 00:39:51.450
And during this time,

972
00:39:51.900 --> 00:39:54.856
were you wondering where Jen was?

973
00:39:55.038 --> 00:39:57.624
Yeah, I've been told that I was asking about

974
00:39:57.662 --> 00:40:00.284
her the entire time on the roof. And

975
00:40:00.482 --> 00:40:02.750
my other squadron members up there had

976
00:40:03.120 --> 00:40:06.108
the good frame of mind to just tell me, oh,

977
00:40:06.114 --> 00:40:08.592
yeah, she was over there. There's people with there,

978
00:40:08.726 --> 00:40:11.536
everything's going to be okay. Um, just

979
00:40:11.638 --> 00:40:12.850
changing my focus.

980
00:40:13.940 --> 00:40:15.948
Did they already know that she had passed?

981
00:40:16.044 --> 00:40:16.972
They would have known.

982
00:40:17.036 --> 00:40:19.936
Yeah. That must have

983
00:40:19.958 --> 00:40:22.530
been really a hard thing for them as well, uh,

984
00:40:22.740 --> 00:40:23.908
to do that.

985
00:40:24.074 --> 00:40:24.452
Yeah.

986
00:40:24.506 --> 00:40:27.236
And one of the members that was up there was one of our

987
00:40:27.258 --> 00:40:29.270
medical personnel, and

988
00:40:30.840 --> 00:40:33.620
there were already members with Jen. And as soon as he got to the site,

989
00:40:33.690 --> 00:40:36.484
he knew and he

990
00:40:36.522 --> 00:40:39.444
had the instinct to then go check on me because he was expecting

991
00:40:39.492 --> 00:40:42.360
the same result for both. Um, so I think

992
00:40:42.430 --> 00:40:45.220
when he got to me, it was just kind of a big relief.

993
00:40:45.300 --> 00:40:47.860
You're like, holy crap, you're

994
00:40:47.940 --> 00:40:50.668
breathing. And then that member stayed with me for the rest of the

995
00:40:50.674 --> 00:40:51.180
day.

996
00:40:51.330 --> 00:40:53.996
Do they know why you were able to survive your

997
00:40:54.018 --> 00:40:54.860
ejection?

998
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:58.384
I think it's just a combination of the

999
00:40:58.422 --> 00:41:01.296
parachute having provided enough of

1000
00:41:01.318 --> 00:41:04.044
a deceleration combined

1001
00:41:04.172 --> 00:41:07.164
with the parachute didn't open. It never reached steady

1002
00:41:07.212 --> 00:41:07.664
state.

1003
00:41:07.782 --> 00:41:08.336
I shouldn't say.

1004
00:41:08.358 --> 00:41:11.168
It didn't open. It didn't open to a, uh, steady state.

1005
00:41:11.254 --> 00:41:13.744
Like it never completed. It never finished opening.

1006
00:41:13.792 --> 00:41:14.390
No.

1007
00:41:14.920 --> 00:41:17.776
And then I think also the fact that I landed

1008
00:41:17.808 --> 00:41:20.084
on a roof took some of the

1009
00:41:20.122 --> 00:41:23.120
shock. And I think also the fact that I landed on

1010
00:41:23.130 --> 00:41:26.024
my seat pack just made it a fiberglass, was

1011
00:41:26.062 --> 00:41:28.280
able to all of those things

1012
00:41:28.350 --> 00:41:30.728
combined provide a

1013
00:41:30.814 --> 00:41:33.770
survivable situation. But

1014
00:41:34.300 --> 00:41:37.292
I'll use the word miracle and just that it

1015
00:41:37.346 --> 00:41:39.770
doesn't make any sense. Uh,

1016
00:41:40.000 --> 00:41:42.732
I shouldn't be here. And I feel very

1017
00:41:42.786 --> 00:41:44.060
fortunate that I am.

1018
00:41:44.130 --> 00:41:46.060
Yeah, we're all glad.

1019
00:41:47.280 --> 00:41:50.192
So you got to the hospital and they had a chance

1020
00:41:50.246 --> 00:41:53.024
to look you over, and

1021
00:41:53.062 --> 00:41:55.280
what injuries did you end up sustaining?

1022
00:41:55.700 --> 00:41:58.272
I do remember one moment of going

1023
00:41:58.326 --> 00:42:00.832
through being taken out of the

1024
00:42:00.886 --> 00:42:03.284
ambulance into the

1025
00:42:03.322 --> 00:42:06.116
emergency and kind of you're on a stretcher. Uh, all you can see is

1026
00:42:06.138 --> 00:42:09.092
straight up, and you're going through the

1027
00:42:09.146 --> 00:42:11.860
automatic hospital doors. And

1028
00:42:12.010 --> 00:42:14.804
I just remember in that moment, as I'm going through the hospital

1029
00:42:14.852 --> 00:42:17.370
doors, like, holy crap, your life has just

1030
00:42:17.740 --> 00:42:20.696
changed forever. So that

1031
00:42:20.718 --> 00:42:23.284
was a bit of a realization of, like, holy crap, you're

1032
00:42:23.332 --> 00:42:26.010
here. And

1033
00:42:26.800 --> 00:42:29.436
the, uh, injuries that, uh, I was

1034
00:42:29.458 --> 00:42:32.332
told at that, uh, time were that I

1035
00:42:32.386 --> 00:42:35.052
had broken three vertebrae and just

1036
00:42:35.106 --> 00:42:37.676
shattered a bunch of bones on my feet was basically the

1037
00:42:37.698 --> 00:42:38.232
result.

1038
00:42:38.386 --> 00:42:39.890
Wow. Yeah.

1039
00:42:40.660 --> 00:42:43.090
What was the recovery like from that

1040
00:42:43.940 --> 00:42:46.770
long? I don't think they knew.

1041
00:42:47.300 --> 00:42:50.176
Just due to the communication between the hospital and

1042
00:42:50.198 --> 00:42:53.180
perhaps the military medical side, I

1043
00:42:53.190 --> 00:42:56.144
think the injuries were maybe described or perceived differently.

1044
00:42:56.192 --> 00:42:58.996
So I think at one point, uh, they

1045
00:42:59.018 --> 00:43:01.956
had booked an aircraft to come pick me up

1046
00:43:01.978 --> 00:43:04.804
just over a week later. And the idea was

1047
00:43:04.842 --> 00:43:07.816
like, oh, we're not going to send him home until he can walk on a plane, or

1048
00:43:07.838 --> 00:43:10.472
something like that. And that was absolutely not going to happen.

1049
00:43:10.606 --> 00:43:13.528
I was on a stretcher that entire

1050
00:43:13.614 --> 00:43:16.536
time. And my mom is a

1051
00:43:16.638 --> 00:43:19.624
medical professional, and I think the only reason why I was actually

1052
00:43:19.662 --> 00:43:22.636
sent home at that time, eight days later, was because my

1053
00:43:22.658 --> 00:43:25.596
mom was going to be with me for a couple of months at home. I

1054
00:43:25.618 --> 00:43:28.588
had a full hospital set up in my room,

1055
00:43:28.754 --> 00:43:31.564
a hospital bed. And had that not

1056
00:43:31.602 --> 00:43:34.332
been the case, I would have likely stayed in the hospital

1057
00:43:34.396 --> 00:43:35.808
for quite a few weeks.

1058
00:43:35.894 --> 00:43:36.624
Yeah.

1059
00:43:36.822 --> 00:43:39.728
But it was eight days, and then you were able to because of

1060
00:43:39.734 --> 00:43:40.764
that, we're able to go home.

1061
00:43:40.822 --> 00:43:43.536
Yeah. Medevac back to Moose

1062
00:43:43.568 --> 00:43:46.452
Jaw, and, uh, one

1063
00:43:46.506 --> 00:43:49.268
year later is where I

1064
00:43:49.274 --> 00:43:51.732
was in a wheelchair for a long

1065
00:43:51.786 --> 00:43:54.324
time. Your first six weeks or

1066
00:43:54.362 --> 00:43:56.840
so, you're not supposed to spend much time

1067
00:43:56.990 --> 00:43:59.832
sitting. You're supposed to be laying down for your

1068
00:43:59.886 --> 00:44:02.648
back to heal. So graduated from the

1069
00:44:02.654 --> 00:44:05.448
wheelchair to the walker to crutches to then a

1070
00:44:05.454 --> 00:44:08.148
cane. I remember a year later at the

1071
00:44:08.174 --> 00:44:10.988
anniversary, I think it was the first day that I

1072
00:44:11.154 --> 00:44:13.964
dropped the cane. I was like, I can now walk

1073
00:44:14.002 --> 00:44:16.892
without the cane and with great

1074
00:44:16.946 --> 00:44:19.836
difficulty. And I think after a couple of weeks, I was like, no, I still need

1075
00:44:19.858 --> 00:44:22.716
the cane. So another six months later, I still

1076
00:44:22.738 --> 00:44:25.696
have the cane at home, uh, on the OD time that I do need it, because there's the

1077
00:44:25.718 --> 00:44:27.632
OD bad day where I still need it.

1078
00:44:27.686 --> 00:44:28.544
Oh, wow.

1079
00:44:28.742 --> 00:44:31.616
Because, uh, I basically don't have cartilage in my right

1080
00:44:31.638 --> 00:44:34.452
foot anymore. So there'll always be a bit of an issue,

1081
00:44:34.506 --> 00:44:37.332
but manageable, and I'm doing everything that I can

1082
00:44:37.386 --> 00:44:39.892
for it to be as functional as possible.

1083
00:44:40.026 --> 00:44:40.710
Yeah.

1084
00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:43.876
So if we take it back a little bit to when you were still in

1085
00:44:43.898 --> 00:44:46.408
hospital and the day of

1086
00:44:46.574 --> 00:44:49.496
or the following days, when and how did

1087
00:44:49.518 --> 00:44:51.220
you find out that Jen had passed?

1088
00:44:51.380 --> 00:44:54.280
It was that night. I feel like I knew,

1089
00:44:54.290 --> 00:44:57.244
ah, after a while, I was in the emergency room kind of

1090
00:44:57.282 --> 00:44:59.864
asking other, uh, personnel

1091
00:44:59.992 --> 00:45:02.604
if Jen was there or there'd be other

1092
00:45:02.722 --> 00:45:05.548
people coming in with their medical emergency on a

1093
00:45:05.554 --> 00:45:08.488
stretcher. And I was noticing that none of

1094
00:45:08.514 --> 00:45:11.324
them they were saying was Jen. So I was like, either she's

1095
00:45:11.372 --> 00:45:14.130
completely fine or not.

1096
00:45:15.300 --> 00:45:17.984
And, uh, I think it was probably like

1097
00:45:18.022 --> 00:45:20.976
08:00 at night, different people cycled through

1098
00:45:21.078 --> 00:45:23.664
from the unit. And then it was our snowbird

1099
00:45:23.712 --> 00:45:26.596
one at the time that came in and he delivered the

1100
00:45:26.618 --> 00:45:29.364
news and at that point I already

1101
00:45:29.402 --> 00:45:32.352
knew. Um, and even just overhearing them in the hallway,

1102
00:45:32.496 --> 00:45:34.790
I heard a bit of a whisper like, does he?

1103
00:45:36.440 --> 00:45:37.190
Yeah.

1104
00:45:38.060 --> 00:45:40.616
So once you found out that Jen had passed away,

1105
00:45:40.798 --> 00:45:43.604
what effect did that have on you mentally and the crash

1106
00:45:43.652 --> 00:45:44.250
itself?

1107
00:45:45.520 --> 00:45:48.350
I don't think my heart rate went below

1108
00:45:48.720 --> 00:45:50.990
130 beats a minute for,

1109
00:45:51.660 --> 00:45:54.604
uh, maybe 72 hours. At that

1110
00:45:54.642 --> 00:45:56.990
point, you don't even fully know

1111
00:45:58.400 --> 00:46:01.376
what your situation there's a lot

1112
00:46:01.398 --> 00:46:03.920
going through your mind. You don't know if you're

1113
00:46:04.580 --> 00:46:07.424
going to be able to walk again. You don't really know

1114
00:46:07.622 --> 00:46:10.576
what has happened. You're on a

1115
00:46:10.598 --> 00:46:13.488
lot of drugs. Yeah, I don't know how

1116
00:46:13.494 --> 00:46:14.564
to answer that.

1117
00:46:14.762 --> 00:46:17.504
Just what, uh, effect it had on you mentally,

1118
00:46:17.632 --> 00:46:20.564
that's your short term, but in the long term, how did you find that this

1119
00:46:20.602 --> 00:46:21.830
has affected you?

1120
00:46:22.280 --> 00:46:25.256
Oh, it's been the single most difficult thing in

1121
00:46:25.278 --> 00:46:25.896
my life.

1122
00:46:25.998 --> 00:46:26.650
Yeah.

1123
00:46:27.900 --> 00:46:30.600
And how have you healed since? Because you're back

1124
00:46:30.670 --> 00:46:33.576
flying with the snowbirds. Obviously there's been a

1125
00:46:33.598 --> 00:46:36.376
degree of healing and obviously there's a part of this that will

1126
00:46:36.398 --> 00:46:39.148
never go away and will never be better.

1127
00:46:39.314 --> 00:46:42.296
But how have you healed from it? I don't

1128
00:46:42.328 --> 00:46:44.110
know that you ever

1129
00:46:45.360 --> 00:46:48.256
really heal from it. I think you just learn how to live with

1130
00:46:48.278 --> 00:46:48.850
it.

1131
00:46:49.620 --> 00:46:50.944
And how have you done that?

1132
00:46:51.062 --> 00:46:52.850
With a lot of mental health.

1133
00:46:54.660 --> 00:46:55.210
And.

1134
00:46:55.210 --> 00:46:57.850
Uh, the forces has been, uh,

1135
00:46:57.940 --> 00:47:00.704
they set me up with someone from Kamloops that has able

1136
00:47:00.742 --> 00:47:02.384
to help, uh, quite a bit.

1137
00:47:02.502 --> 00:47:02.880
Okay.

1138
00:47:02.950 --> 00:47:03.570
Yeah.

1139
00:47:04.420 --> 00:47:06.310
So once you had some time

1140
00:47:06.680 --> 00:47:09.556
to physically heal and you

1141
00:47:09.578 --> 00:47:12.516
spent a lot of time in recovery, so you had a lot of time to think. Did

1142
00:47:12.538 --> 00:47:15.320
you know right away that you wanted to get back into flying?

1143
00:47:15.660 --> 00:47:18.296
Yeah, that was one of my first questions I asked the

1144
00:47:18.318 --> 00:47:21.256
doctor that night. I

1145
00:47:21.278 --> 00:47:23.210
just kind of wanted to know. I was like,

1146
00:47:24.620 --> 00:47:26.840
am I being told right now that I'm

1147
00:47:27.660 --> 00:47:30.268
never going to walk again? Never going to fly again? I just kind of

1148
00:47:30.274 --> 00:47:32.956
said, how is this looking? Just because I

1149
00:47:32.978 --> 00:47:35.868
felt that, uh, it was pretty bad day to

1150
00:47:35.874 --> 00:47:38.764
begin with. Let's just get everything out of the way. What else do I need

1151
00:47:38.802 --> 00:47:41.708
to be prepared for and accept? And

1152
00:47:41.874 --> 00:47:44.190
he right away said he's like, you know,

1153
00:47:44.500 --> 00:47:47.356
I've seen injuries in some cases that were worse

1154
00:47:47.388 --> 00:47:50.064
in a helicopter crash that they were able

1155
00:47:50.102 --> 00:47:52.972
to fly again. So he said, uh, I can't

1156
00:47:53.036 --> 00:47:56.020
speak to how you're going to recover, but I think

1157
00:47:56.090 --> 00:47:58.816
you could make a recovery to the point of being able to fly

1158
00:47:58.848 --> 00:47:59.140
again.

1159
00:47:59.210 --> 00:48:00.708
And how did that make you feel?

1160
00:48:00.874 --> 00:48:03.316
That was motivation to push for that to

1161
00:48:03.338 --> 00:48:03.910
happen.

1162
00:48:05.000 --> 00:48:07.764
What was it like for you to get back into flying after the crash?

1163
00:48:07.892 --> 00:48:10.568
Did you feel like the military encouraged you to get back into the

1164
00:48:10.574 --> 00:48:11.092
cockpit?

1165
00:48:11.156 --> 00:48:13.908
Very much so, yeah. The chain of command,

1166
00:48:14.004 --> 00:48:16.808
the whole team have been there for me

1167
00:48:16.894 --> 00:48:19.836
and with me throughout. I was posted to the

1168
00:48:19.858 --> 00:48:22.428
transition center and then back to the

1169
00:48:22.434 --> 00:48:25.372
snowbirds this year, but I never really left the team. This is how it has

1170
00:48:25.426 --> 00:48:28.320
felt anyway. And uh,

1171
00:48:28.900 --> 00:48:31.776
two years after the fact, I

1172
00:48:31.798 --> 00:48:34.096
was able to get a

1173
00:48:34.198 --> 00:48:37.136
passenger approval. M, the idea was just

1174
00:48:37.158 --> 00:48:39.996
to see before they allowed me to fly

1175
00:48:40.028 --> 00:48:42.764
an aircraft again, they just want to see how it is to fly

1176
00:48:42.812 --> 00:48:45.764
in a military aircraft again. So I flew my first

1177
00:48:45.802 --> 00:48:48.724
flight with Eric Temple. It's number ten, just around

1178
00:48:48.762 --> 00:48:49.424
Moose Jaw.

1179
00:48:49.472 --> 00:48:50.992
So you're right back into a tutor.

1180
00:48:51.056 --> 00:48:53.940
Right back into a tutor. And it

1181
00:48:54.090 --> 00:48:57.060
put a smile on my face. It felt like I was

1182
00:48:57.210 --> 00:49:00.056
at home again. So I just knew from that flight I was like,

1183
00:49:00.078 --> 00:49:02.856
okay, this is good, I need to keep doing this.

1184
00:49:02.958 --> 00:49:04.760
That's so good. So you had no

1185
00:49:04.910 --> 00:49:07.496
trepidations, no lingering

1186
00:49:07.608 --> 00:49:10.376
fears from being back in that cockpit?

1187
00:49:10.488 --> 00:49:13.452
No, I think there always are those

1188
00:49:13.506 --> 00:49:16.492
things, but I think my trauma doesn't have

1189
00:49:16.546 --> 00:49:19.424
to do. I haven't associated it to

1190
00:49:19.462 --> 00:49:22.316
flying. I've definitely associated

1191
00:49:22.348 --> 00:49:25.232
it, uh, to loss. So I think that

1192
00:49:25.286 --> 00:49:28.240
bit, uh, I'm always going to have challenges with.

1193
00:49:28.310 --> 00:49:31.040
But when it comes to flying, that's when I can put

1194
00:49:31.110 --> 00:49:34.000
everything else aside and just concentrate on flying. And that's

1195
00:49:34.080 --> 00:49:34.900
my happy place.

1196
00:49:34.970 --> 00:49:37.364
I'm so happy for you. That's the way it's worked out.

1197
00:49:37.482 --> 00:49:38.004
Yeah.

1198
00:49:38.122 --> 00:49:39.200
I feel fortunate.

1199
00:49:39.280 --> 00:49:40.390
Yeah, you are.

1200
00:49:41.080 --> 00:49:44.036
What advice would you give to young pilots in the RCAF who

1201
00:49:44.058 --> 00:49:46.104
may have to recover from tragedy in the line.

1202
00:49:46.142 --> 00:49:48.820
Of duty that the Canadian armed forces

1203
00:49:48.980 --> 00:49:51.736
have the resources available and are

1204
00:49:51.758 --> 00:49:54.728
there for you, free to do your recovery? Uh, I don't think

1205
00:49:54.734 --> 00:49:57.448
I'll say anything more than that, other than the system is there for you and it

1206
00:49:57.454 --> 00:49:57.768
works.

1207
00:49:57.854 --> 00:50:00.796
Yeah, I agree completely. People who've listened to the show

1208
00:50:00.818 --> 00:50:03.788
will know that I've gone through my own mental health issues while in

1209
00:50:03.794 --> 00:50:06.748
the military and I can't say enough good things about the

1210
00:50:06.754 --> 00:50:09.080
care I've received. And uh,

1211
00:50:09.080 --> 00:50:12.076
especially you can look at it a couple of ways. My

1212
00:50:12.098 --> 00:50:15.056
experience has been they care about you as a person. You're also an asset, so they have

1213
00:50:15.078 --> 00:50:17.904
a vested interest in you getting better. So

1214
00:50:17.942 --> 00:50:20.828
people who are afraid that it's going to be a system that doesn't

1215
00:50:20.844 --> 00:50:23.664
look out for them, it's just a misconception as far as I've experienced.

1216
00:50:23.712 --> 00:50:24.420
Personally.

1217
00:50:25.560 --> 00:50:28.176
I'd like to wrap up this tough topic by remembering

1218
00:50:28.208 --> 00:50:30.950
jen, what do you want people to know about her.

1219
00:50:31.480 --> 00:50:34.330
She was a force to be reckoned with. I think, uh,

1220
00:50:35.100 --> 00:50:38.010
I admired her. Uh, we all did.

1221
00:50:39.100 --> 00:50:41.610
Just working with her and watching her

1222
00:50:42.380 --> 00:50:45.172
through the previous Ejection

1223
00:50:45.316 --> 00:50:47.724
and through other challenges with the

1224
00:50:47.762 --> 00:50:50.300
Squadron and Op inspiration,

1225
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:53.260
it really made me feel

1226
00:50:53.410 --> 00:50:56.396
like anything was achievable. It was kind of

1227
00:50:56.418 --> 00:50:59.384
like the attitude of seeing all the barriers

1228
00:50:59.432 --> 00:51:02.248
and seeing how something could not happen that was

1229
00:51:02.274 --> 00:51:05.216
not part of her language. It was always like, well,

1230
00:51:05.238 --> 00:51:08.200
this is happening. We're going to find a way for this to happen and,

1231
00:51:08.200 --> 00:51:10.912
uh, let's do it. So I think that

1232
00:51:10.966 --> 00:51:13.696
has reset a

1233
00:51:13.718 --> 00:51:16.212
mindset in me to keep

1234
00:51:16.266 --> 00:51:19.188
going, even just when it comes to going back flying. Just

1235
00:51:19.194 --> 00:51:22.164
to never give up and just focus on the goal. And then

1236
00:51:22.202 --> 00:51:24.664
with Jen's mindset, uh, you'll get

1237
00:51:24.702 --> 00:51:26.570
there. I love that.

1238
00:51:28.060 --> 00:51:30.856
So we're down to our last three questions. We

1239
00:51:30.878 --> 00:51:33.608
ask them on every show. I think they're really great questions.

1240
00:51:33.774 --> 00:51:35.160
I came up with them.

1241
00:51:35.310 --> 00:51:36.872
Well, then they must be great.

1242
00:51:37.006 --> 00:51:39.836
What is the most important thing you do to keep yourself ready for your

1243
00:51:39.858 --> 00:51:40.430
job?

1244
00:51:41.360 --> 00:51:43.230
Sleep 8 hours per night.

1245
00:51:44.320 --> 00:51:46.828
Yeah. Just take care of yourself, eat well, go to the

1246
00:51:46.834 --> 00:51:49.820
gym, sleep well. And then that gives you, um,

1247
00:51:50.420 --> 00:51:52.630
the focus and the ability to focus on,

1248
00:51:52.630 --> 00:51:55.072
uh, your job. That's what works for me.

1249
00:51:55.126 --> 00:51:57.480
Yeah. It's a simple answer, but it's a good one.

1250
00:51:57.480 --> 00:52:00.396
Uh, I'd rather sleep

1251
00:52:00.588 --> 00:52:03.010
than study through the night for something.

1252
00:52:03.860 --> 00:52:06.596
Divide your time accordingly for you to study when you're going to be

1253
00:52:06.618 --> 00:52:09.476
effective at studying and then take care of yourself to be

1254
00:52:09.498 --> 00:52:12.356
rested and able to go on to your next flight or flight test or

1255
00:52:12.378 --> 00:52:13.124
whatever it might be.

1256
00:52:13.162 --> 00:52:16.040
Yeah, I fully agree. There's a time for studying, but you need your rest.

1257
00:52:16.110 --> 00:52:16.488
Exactly.

1258
00:52:16.574 --> 00:52:17.210
Yeah.

1259
00:52:18.140 --> 00:52:20.680
What do you think makes a good pilot?

1260
00:52:21.180 --> 00:52:24.024
I would say just the mindset of

1261
00:52:24.062 --> 00:52:26.700
always wanting to keep learning

1262
00:52:26.850 --> 00:52:29.020
and having new experiences.

1263
00:52:29.520 --> 00:52:32.136
Different airframes, different, uh, communities,

1264
00:52:32.328 --> 00:52:35.244
excel in. It could be low

1265
00:52:35.282 --> 00:52:37.710
level VFR flying or

1266
00:52:38.660 --> 00:52:41.120
international IFR operations

1267
00:52:41.620 --> 00:52:44.304
or more tactics. So I think

1268
00:52:44.502 --> 00:52:47.344
a good pilot should strive to learn as

1269
00:52:47.382 --> 00:52:50.172
many things as they can to round

1270
00:52:50.236 --> 00:52:51.132
their experience.

1271
00:52:51.286 --> 00:52:51.990
Okay.

1272
00:52:53.880 --> 00:52:56.816
Final question. Uh, picture in your head someone who's listening

1273
00:52:56.848 --> 00:52:59.716
to the show, who is maybe an air

1274
00:52:59.738 --> 00:53:02.592
cadet who's interested in joining, or somebody who's just applied,

1275
00:53:02.656 --> 00:53:05.520
or someone who is on their flight training right now in the

1276
00:53:05.530 --> 00:53:07.864
RCAF. What would your advice be to that new

1277
00:53:07.902 --> 00:53:08.628
pilot?

1278
00:53:08.804 --> 00:53:11.368
To never give up. It took me

1279
00:53:11.534 --> 00:53:14.456
two and a half years. It felt like three years to

1280
00:53:14.478 --> 00:53:17.428
actually join the know.

1281
00:53:17.534 --> 00:53:20.300
I was rejected twice, so I've applied three times

1282
00:53:20.450 --> 00:53:23.084
to join as a pilot. One was

1283
00:53:23.122 --> 00:53:26.076
from one grade on my

1284
00:53:26.098 --> 00:53:28.988
high school diploma that was too low or something. And

1285
00:53:28.994 --> 00:53:31.132
they're like, okay, cool, just try again next year.

1286
00:53:31.186 --> 00:53:31.548
Okay.

1287
00:53:31.634 --> 00:53:34.352
And then I was rejected a second

1288
00:53:34.406 --> 00:53:36.096
time for my eyes.

1289
00:53:36.278 --> 00:53:36.960
Which one?

1290
00:53:37.030 --> 00:53:40.016
I went to my Ophthalmologist he was like, my machine could be off by that much

1291
00:53:40.038 --> 00:53:42.976
any day. Like your 2015 vision, you're good to

1292
00:53:42.998 --> 00:53:45.972
go. So sometimes there's little bumps in the road

1293
00:53:46.026 --> 00:53:48.836
that if you just keep pushing through them, they

1294
00:53:48.858 --> 00:53:51.716
might just be tiny bumps. So if you see

1295
00:53:51.738 --> 00:53:54.390
any obstacles, just keep going right on.

1296
00:53:55.080 --> 00:53:57.964
Okay, Rich, that's going to wrap up the interview for the audience.

1297
00:53:58.032 --> 00:54:00.984
I think it's kind of a cool thing to note that we're sitting here

1298
00:54:01.022 --> 00:54:03.944
in my basement in Portage la Prairie. Rich is in his red

1299
00:54:03.982 --> 00:54:06.936
snowbird flight suit because he has taken time

1300
00:54:06.958 --> 00:54:09.804
out of a day where he's in the middle of coordinating a show here

1301
00:54:09.842 --> 00:54:12.748
in Portugal Prairie for the staff and family

1302
00:54:12.834 --> 00:54:15.576
members at three Cfffts. So he's

1303
00:54:15.608 --> 00:54:18.476
an extremely busy person, but he's still taking the time out to

1304
00:54:18.498 --> 00:54:21.276
be here today, and I'm really thankful for that. But I'm also

1305
00:54:21.298 --> 00:54:24.224
thankful, Rich, that you're willing to open up to us today about

1306
00:54:24.262 --> 00:54:26.512
a really tough topic in your life.

1307
00:54:26.566 --> 00:54:27.072
Absolutely.

1308
00:54:27.206 --> 00:54:29.936
And it really means a lot to me that you're willing to share that with

1309
00:54:29.958 --> 00:54:32.876
us. And I'm really excited for Canadians

1310
00:54:32.908 --> 00:54:35.796
to hear your story and to learn a little bit more about Jen as

1311
00:54:35.818 --> 00:54:36.148
well.

1312
00:54:36.234 --> 00:54:37.332
Thanks for having me.

1313
00:54:37.386 --> 00:54:38.404
Yeah, thanks for being here.

1314
00:54:38.442 --> 00:54:39.060
Cheers.

1315
00:54:39.720 --> 00:54:42.516
Okay, that's going to wrap up our chat with Rich about his

1316
00:54:42.538 --> 00:54:45.476
time on the snowbirds, as well as his journey after the

1317
00:54:45.498 --> 00:54:48.404
Snowbird Eleven crash and losing Jen Casey.

1318
00:54:48.532 --> 00:54:51.320
Remembrance Day is fast approaching and it can be a difficult

1319
00:54:51.390 --> 00:54:54.196
day for many of us. For my multiengine instructor

1320
00:54:54.228 --> 00:54:56.824
and friend, Mike Hool, it's the hardest time of the

1321
00:54:56.862 --> 00:54:59.676
year. For our next episode, we'll sit down with Mike and

1322
00:54:59.698 --> 00:55:02.156
talk about his experiences over seven tours in

1323
00:55:02.178 --> 00:55:04.556
Afghanistan, as well as taking part in the

1324
00:55:04.578 --> 00:55:07.528
repatriation of 13 fallen Canadians.

1325
00:55:07.704 --> 00:55:10.636
Do you have any questions or comments about anything you've heard or would

1326
00:55:10.658 --> 00:55:13.536
you or someone you know make a great guest on the show? You can

1327
00:55:13.558 --> 00:55:14.336
reach out to us, uh, at

1328
00:55:14.358 --> 00:55:17.232
thepilotprojectpodcast@gmail.com

1329
00:55:17.366 --> 00:55:20.080
did you know that for each episode we make an exciting video

1330
00:55:20.150 --> 00:55:22.716
featuring footage taken by our air crew and serving

1331
00:55:22.748 --> 00:55:25.460
members? You can check them out on all social media

1332
00:55:25.530 --> 00:55:28.436
at at podpilot project. Check us out

1333
00:55:28.458 --> 00:55:31.316
and give us a follow. As always, we'd like to thank you so

1334
00:55:31.338 --> 00:55:34.228
much for joining us and listening to the show. And we'd like

1335
00:55:34.234 --> 00:55:37.044
to ask you for your help with the big three that's like and follow

1336
00:55:37.082 --> 00:55:40.004
us on social media, share with your friends and

1337
00:55:40.042 --> 00:55:42.404
follow and rate us five stars wherever you get your

1338
00:55:42.442 --> 00:55:44.964
podcasts. That's all for now. Thanks for

1339
00:55:45.002 --> 00:55:47.870
listening. Keep the blue side up. See you.