Lee Kirk

Show Notes

*program note: Unfortunately, we were unable to record the audio for this podcast in the usual way so you will notice diminished sound quality. Apologies for the annoyance.

Intro: Fenty, plastic surgery, self-acceptance, Wild Wild Country, Paris Hilton, the Donner Party, where do you stand on documentaries?, feeling trapped.
Let Me Run This By You: letting go of unnecessary shame
Interview: We talk to Lee Kirk. The power of TTS marketing department, not getting movement to music, juggling too many things mentally as an actor, being young and playing old, being stuck in your head, how Lee got into writing, writing teacher John Truby , John Cabrera and a certain Panasonic DVX, The Man Who Invented the Moon, the horrors of auditioning, writing his own showcase piece, Sean Gunn's The Dumbwaiter, learning life lessons at the Chopin Theatre, directing for film and TV, The Giant Mechanical Man, site-specific theatre, feeling the heat in Avcollie's class, Acting with a capital A, Black Box Academy, and well-intentioned G.O.D. Squad parties.

FULL TRANSCRIPT
Speaker 1: (00:08)
And Jen Bosworth wrote me this and I'm Gina [inaudible]. We went to theater school together. We survived it, but we didn't quite understand it. 20 years later, we're digging deep talking to our guests about their experiences and trying to make sense of it all. We survived theater school and you will too. Are we famous yet?

Speaker 2: (00:36)
You know, I look at, I'm sure there's like rubbing alcohol in there and

Speaker 3: (00:40)
That's one of their tricks is they make everything look like it comes out of a doctor.

Speaker 2: (00:45)
So people are like, Ooh, I'm going to get no bow tie. You know, I was thinking like, my agents keeps sending me. They send everybody, it's not just me like injectable auditions, which I never take because I hate, I have these lines, you know, like right there. My uncle really has them too. And anyway, I got them from my mom and I was like, maybe a little Botox, but the problem with Botox is like anything it's addictive as hell. So like, clearly if you look at people, they start with one little thing. Right. And then they're like, Oh, Oh, but over here. Oh, but here. And then they ended up looking like that.

Speaker 3: (01:21)
You know what I, what I, I also think about that. Um, you do it. I think people do it because they, they want to look younger, whether it's injectables or fillers or, um, having surgery. I think what ends up happening even to people who profess that they really like that. Look in addition to the fact that people all start to look the same, um, P people stop looking like themselves. And it's very disconcerting to be interacting with somebody who you knew to look one way and now they don't look like themselves. So in a way, it doesn't matter how smooth your skin is or because if you don't look like you, then it hasn't worked. Right.

Speaker 2: (02:08)
Right. And then it, and then it's very hard to have normal interactions. I told you how my friend didn't recognize her own mother after. Oh my God. So my friend, my friend used to, she's not really my friend anymore, but anyway, and she, she went to her sister's wedding and her mother had, had so much, and she hadn't seen her mother in a year and her mother had, had so much plastic surgery. Then when her mother was walking her sister down the aisle, she didn't recognize she didn't, she couldn't tell if it was her own mother. Oh my God. Like, it's, it looks like, kind of like my mom, but can you imagine that I would have a panic attack and pass out if that, if I didn't recognize my own mother.

Speaker 3: (02:50)
Yeah. That's like invasion of the body snatcher.

Speaker 2: (02:53)
You said it was the me, I think that's my mom. Oh my God. That's horrible. We all really

Speaker 3: (03:00)
Just need to like work on self-acceptance. That's the most beautiful thing. I mean, not to sound cheesy, but like that, if you really, and this is true for me personally, if I feel good, I look good. If I don't feel good, I don't look good. It's very straightforward. Yeah.

Speaker 2: (03:16)
Yeah. And it's yeah. And it's, it's not, um, God, I think we are so it's so simple. And yet people, we, we, we loved like, like our guests, Shana was saying, we love to be a mess. We'd love to make things more complicated than they are. We'd love to really get in there. And it ha we have to be this huge ordeal instead of just saying, Oh, let me work on self-acceptance. Um, and that brings me to I've I just was watching wild, wild country.

Speaker 3: (03:46)
Yeah. Tell us. Okay.

Speaker 2: (03:48)
Okay. So I was trying to watch the Paris Hilton one, but I couldn't watch a skinny person. I just was like, I can't watch the skinny person. So let me watch.

Speaker 3: (03:56)
She is so skinny.

Speaker 2: (03:59)
It's quite something. Yeah. Yeah. Um, but anyway, so I've said, okay, let me and I had never seen wild wild country. And I thought that I had, but then I was like, Oh, I have not seen this. So, you know, it's this, it's this movie about this. Um, it, it, this cult, um, in, uh, India, Poona India, then they moved to Oregon and take over this in the eighties, take over this land. But what it really made me also think about was the idea of documentaries, right? So I'm not sure I'm a huge documentary fan because well, or a true documentary fan, because I like when people have a point of view. So, so, so what I found Howard, and I'm not done yet, but I binged it yesterday. But what I find hard about wild wild country is that it's really pretty openness to, is Sheila the mastermind or is OSHA or he used to be known as the Bhagwan. Did he, did he, is he the mastermind? So it goes back and forth in this really sort of, um, ambiguous way. And I'm like, wait, just tell me is Sheila. And I think that's my own problem with not with black and white thinking, right? It's like, just tell Sheila the bad guy here or Sheila, the good guy. Cause I can't be going back and forth with these ideas.

Speaker 3: (05:14)
Is it that is it that you want, you have, you do have your own opinion, but you don't, you don't consider it set unless you have the idea that somebody else shares your opinion.

Speaker 2: (05:26)
I think it's, I, I think that's probably part of it. And I also think that I like, yeah, I like when people say this is what I think, what do you think? I mean, I'm sure it goes back and speaks to my codependent nature, but I also think that it's like, which I, yeah, I like being told, like this person is bad and this person is, um, but I don't know. I just, I, I find it infuriating when right. There are two sides are more than two sides, but two sides sometimes presented in a documentary and it goes back and forth and then I get confused. Right. And they're doing that. They're playing with your emotions. I'm like, Oh, Sheila, Sheila was really, she was the one. And then I'm like, what is she though? Wasn't she just sort of a victim of a misogynistic guru then? I'm like, no, she was really evil. So I think I don't like being manipulated. And that's the purpose. Art does that lot.

Speaker 3: (06:22)
Right. And it's both, it's both everybody. I mean, maybe this isn't true, but I'll just say everybody who's a perpetrator is also a victim of something else. I mean, you just made that you don't maybe that you don't know what the, their victimhood surrounds, but you can guarantee that, you know, because nobody's born a monster.

Speaker 2: (06:41)
No, I don't believe that.

Speaker 3: (06:43)
Right. Everybody, everybody gets there, honestly. Yeah.

Speaker 2: (06:48)
Everyone has earned their stripes kind of a thing. Right. And I think the, for the weird thing is too, like, there are so many people that like, love Osho. Like I didn't realize the Bhagwan became Osho later after he died. So

Speaker 3: (07:05)
I did, I started watching a, but I didn't finish it. So you'll have to fill in the,

Speaker 2: (07:09)
The bottom line is this guy, it's the typical cult story. Right. So, um, but it's like Westerners came, discovered this guy that, that, that they all thought was amazing. Everyone's lacking inside. So we're so looking for a guru. And, um, this is 1960s through 1990 and it's like, it's a typical story. But what makes it interesting is that this woman, right? That this woman became his quote, secretary, Sheila. She was from India, but she sort of took them and I haven't finished it yet either. I have a couple more episodes, but she took the fall for everything of this cult and Osho that the Indian guru man who changed his name. And I don't know the origin story of why this name changed, but Osho remained intact and is like a, and it just goes to, it remains a guru like in death and his books are, you know, and actually funny enough, the girl, the woman who I just said didn't recognize her own mother was a huge Osho follower and. And I'm like, Oh man, people still, he came out unscathed basically. And Sheila, the woman became this pariah. And I think she went to jail.

Speaker 3: (08:22)
Oh, I mean, that's, that's figures that just figures, but what flavor of cult is it? Is it a sex cult, money drug? What kind of a,

Speaker 2: (08:33)
Where they it's weird because, well, I don't know about weird all culture kind of weird, but it is a culture where they literally, you really buy in. They wanted to create a society based on sharing and love, but it then creeped into, and it was no, not a sex cult. It was a religious cult. So they all, they all, but, and it was a, it was a religious culture. They worshiped this guru, um, who didn't have a specific religion. He was creating his own, the new man. He called it. And, um, they got into trouble because the interesting thing is that they decided to move to Oregon and try to take over all. They started slowly buying all this land and the white or Ghanians were like, Oh no, you guys are, you know, not, and a lot of the, a lot of the cult members were white, but the, the head who was Indian and a lot of, some of the disciples were Brown and blah, blah, blah. So the Oregonian. So it's really the story of like this town in Oregon, antelope, Oregon, that cannot stand this cult being on their land. And that was the real problem. And then Sheila and got a little crazy and started poisoning all the Oregonians.

Speaker 3: (09:49)
Oh, she started poising them because she wanted their money or

Speaker 2: (09:53)
No one wanted their language and they hated her. And Sheila became, and they became so irate at the white Oregonian, old people. They started poisoning them to like, not come off. She was off. I mean, clearly, but I mean, they were not nice to her. They would call their names. I mean, it was bad. So, and they won, they set up this whole town and we were too young, but they like won the, the cult one and, and change the name to Raj Nish from, from the Oregon town became Rajani.

Speaker 3: (10:28)
Yeah. Cause on the other side of the country, they're doing it in Clearwater, Florida. It, it it's, it's all about your, um, it's all about your ability to manipulate people, how much mass appeal and charm you have. I have something to say to all the ladies out there, a guru is a red flag and it may not necessarily be somebody who's calling themselves a group. But if you start to feel like, if you start to feel like your attraction to somebody is that you want them to tell you how to live your life. That should be your first sign, that this is not. And as history has born out, if it does get to a certain, um, level, you're going to be blamed in the end.

Speaker 2: (11:13)
Totally. You are the scapegoat, like just know going in. If goes wrong, it's going to fall on you. It's not going to fall on him usually. And it's, and it, and it happened to her and she, and I'm, I don't know what ends up. She's still alive. Cause she's the documentary just came out and Sheila is her name and she's still talking and she's talking so she's alive. But I think she went to jail. I think some crazy went down. So yeah, I think, and it was interesting. It wasn't um, uh, in that it goes back to what we're we always say about cults and cultive personality, which is just an extreme, inner, longing to feel. Okay. And to feel protected and to feel taken care of, which is why do we do that with doctors? Like, you know, everybody,

Speaker 3: (11:56)
I just want somebody to have the answers. We're just looking for somebody else to, and, and, and all the other person really has to do is behave as if they do have all of the answers, the last thing. And you know, this from being a therapist, your, your clients always want you to tell them what to do. Right. Because they, they either think, you know, or they want to think, you know, the answer that was always a reaction.

Speaker 2: (12:24)
It was like when people would ask you that, yeah, my clients would just basically be like, can you give me money, a clientele that was pretty down and out, but they, but that's an answer too. It's like, Kevin took care of me, you know, can you, can you, can you be my mom? Can you be my, my everything? And it's and it's, um, and it's real tricky. It's like, I was thinking too about those, um, sperm doctors that ended up putting their own sperm in the sperm banks. And so, so that's a call to that, that I want them to. Yeah. So it's just, it's very interesting. I was thinking about like how far people go to, I mean, that's just really disgusting obviously, but it's also the same thing of like, wanting to be the believing that you have the power wanting the power and, and abusing your power. So anyway, so all this to say, I'm watching wild, wild country and it's, and it's bringing up emotions of like, I don't, or just the thought of like, as a filmmaker, do you document or documentarian, do you have to have a point of view? Are you not supposed to have a point of view? It's just interesting to me, you know, like, I don't know.

Speaker 3: (13:40)
Hmm. Do you have to, I think, what do you think though? That I don't know. I, I, I don't think I've ever watched a documentary mentoree in which I didn't ultimately side with what I think is the documentarians point of view. I mean, they can go, it's really, it's really an art that they can go a long way of laying out all of the facts and then kind of diverting you in this direction or, well, actually the, the next thing was a good example of that, because one documentary had you believe, I mean, they both blamed the head guy, whatever, but one documentary had you believing one thing and another one had you believing something slightly different. So I, I mean, I think that pretty much, you're going to have the opinion of the documentarian, even if you don't know that that's what the opinion that the documentarian has, because they're usually leading you towards a certain conclusion. Don't anything

Speaker 2: (14:42)
I think so I can't put the, I think that's it. And I can't quite tell where wild wild country is going and maybe that's a Testament to their good skills, or I don't know, but I don't know what I'm supposed to think at this point. And that's okay. I'll still watch it. I'm going to watch that the rest of it. Cause it's, it's better than watching the show of the news. You know, my cardiologist do not watch the news.

Speaker 3: (15:04)
That was, that was very, that was very good advice. Um, what I think is interesting is what draws us to what media, at what time, like you were, you just said this documentary was bringing up certain feelings in you. I have real recently been getting really into the Donner party.

Speaker 2: (15:25)
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah,

Speaker 3: (15:30)
Yeah, man. Whew. That was rough. How was rough? And those people had money. Did you know that, that those people had, they were very well to do so basically they lived in Springfield, Illinois. And I think what happened is at a certain point, you know, America started getting a lot more inhabitants and people who had been used to having a lot of space to themselves and a lot of land, whatever started having neighbors and some people didn't like it. And that's what this was before the gold rush, they came out in like 1846. Um, and they had a whole crew that had like a staff. They brought all of their to China and whatever with them, uh, and their S and w the trip was supposed to take, I guess, maybe like three months going through the Oregon trail, or maybe it was more, more that. And they were basically stuck there for like a year in the Sierra. Nevada's the, you know, in the winter with no food. Oh God. It's. And I think the reason I'm attracted to that right now is not that I'm stuck without food, but that I, this feeling of, like, we don't know when we're going to get out of this. We don't know if anybody's coming to save us. You're trapped, trapped. It's the trapped thing.

Speaker 2: (16:49)
Um, did they, did they not have a good travel agent? I mean, I know that sounds crazy, but did they not have someone, someone say

Speaker 3: (16:58)
They, they tried to do a shortcut. They, they believe this guy who was like a snake oil salesman essentially was selling a book that purported to have a shortcut. Oh no. And in that situation, Mrs. Donner, whoever she was was like, I don't know. I don't think this is a good idea. I think we should go. And the husband said, no, we're going to go this way. And they went that way and it was bad, bad, bad, bad,

Speaker 2: (17:27)
The lifelong struggle of women to try to tell men you're lost, get directions. It stems from the Donner party. Did they all end up? Did it?

Speaker 3: (17:41)
No. There were several survivors. I think the entire party started out with 80 people. And I think might be like 11 people survive one or two of the survivors, I believe did kill themselves after that, you know, because they, right. It's such a trauma

Speaker 2: (18:00)
And the guilt and the, and you ate, right. They ate each other, right? Yeah,

Speaker 3: (18:05)
No, they ate each other. Well, they didn't eat their own family. That was their code of ethics. They, they, they did, they divvied up the meat so that this one didn't go to his own or her own God. Well, it's so sad. I'm sorry to be laughing. Is it is a very interesting story. Well, human beings are absurd, you know, like at our core, the way in which we, when, when we, whenever we're in a situation where we have to get down to basics, like for our survival and we just become animals, just like, I'm a squirrel, I'm a rat. Like, I'm nothing, you know, because if you get me tired enough or hungry enough or lonely enough or whatever, like I'm going to make the same. Some people feel comforted by that. I don't, I don't feel, yeah. Right, right.

Speaker 2: (19:00)
I feel like that's where you get. Yeah. That's where you get freaking really freaking crazy people going and doing crazy stuff. Is that there, they forget they have a, what is it an a, a mixed a lot or whatever. It doesn't work out. It like goes out the window. And that's when people make really horrible decisions to, you know, animalistic decisions. Wow.

Speaker 3: (19:23)
Yeah. The Donner party. Uh, but besides that, I am looking for, uh, media recommendations of all sorts. I bought David Sedaris, his new book. I don't really like it. Um, I, I, my mom got me Barack Obama's book for Christmas, which I do like, but it makes me fall asleep. Every time I read it.

Speaker 2: (19:41)
It's not bad. That could be a good thing. Um, I was going to ask you something I was going to before I forget. Um, so, you know, I was, I was thinking about the interview that we're going to do, and that we've done with people. And we've known that the tricky thing about interviewing people, and I was thinking about this and the showers that we've known people, most of these people were interviewing. And soon one day, you know, we won't know the people and that'll be different, but we've known these people before they've become who they wanted to become. So it's like a lot of people don't like being reminded of the past. And a lot of people know, and a lot of people are very cagey about you having information or me having information about them from the past. And they're, they weren't who they wanted to be. And must have some shame about that and then get weird about it. But I was thinking about that, like that we can't really take that personally because, or I can't cause I'm too apt to, you know, be like, you know, but it's like when you've seen people at their weirdest worst or what they think is their weirdest worst, you could even think who cares. I don't give a. Um, but they, they care and they don't, they don't, they don't like it like you or you,

Speaker 3: (21:06)
That what you just said about they, you don't care, but they care that I think that could be applied to almost everything that we as humans feel very, a lot of shame about, um, for the, not a 99.9% of the time. It's like, it's, it's, it's either, it's funny now. Or it's just not a big deal. I mean, we just accept it. We were, we were 20, we were 19. We may, you know, we talked about amygdala as our amygdala, you know, we, our brain wasn't done being formed yet. So yeah. I wish, I wish, I wish I could give, not just our guests, but I guess certainly our guests too, but everybody, I wish I could give everybody the freedom of understanding that your 99% of your deepest shames are just regular things that everybody has to deal with. I remember like about five years ago, I, I realized that I was still holding on to embarrassment from so many past things. And so I started making it like a mission to tell these stories to people as much as I possibly could to kind of like reduce the shame around it. And it works like for, uh, let's see here. I have one, I think.

Speaker 3: (22:24)
Yeah. Yeah. Let's hear. Let's hear.

Speaker 2: (22:25)
All right, listen to this story. This is like, and I've told this a couple times, but this is the craziest. So at Saturn films I had, before she was fired for gambling online all day, I had one of my bosses. She was my was w they were all my boss. So, but she was my boss and she, her personal calls, she would get a lot of personal calls. This was like pre kind of pre-cellphone right around cell phone time. Right. Her mother would call a lot. And I would, my job was to take a message. You know, if she didn't want to talk to her mom, I couldn't talk to her about, okay. So one day, this is crazy. What made her mother calls? And I forgot. And at the time we had something called the call tracker, and you enter the call.

Speaker 2: (23:12)
It may probably still have it enter the thing, and then you press, and then it's in there. And then the person sees their messages. All right. I didn't do that. I made a mistake. I made a mistake. She she's like, Hey, did my mom call? She said, she called. And she was so angry that I said, no, she didn't call. She called, she called. And I said, no, she didn't call. And she's like, are you sure? Cause she said, she talked to someone I'm like, she didn't talk to me. It got bigger and bigger. It became like an investigation. Then she's like, well, maybe we should talk to Kelly this other in the office. And Kelly's like, no, she didn't talk to me as a deeper in, I got beans. The more, the more I was like, I can't tell her because I can't tell you she's going to, it was more than firing. It was this shame level. That was so great. And it, the mom, like she wanted to hear voice comparisons from like me and Kelly.

Speaker 3: (24:09)
Wait, why were they taking it so seriously?

Speaker 2: (24:12)
I think they wanted to prove that one of us was lying and I never told her, I just, she goes, okay, well, and it was this huge thing. And I felt so much shame and it was so embarrassing and it was so, and I should have just said, yes, she called them. Sorry. That's I mean, but the Lord had happened. The war dug in, I got about, Oh my God. It was when they wanted, when I had to go, Oh God,

Speaker 3: (24:38)
Anyway, but dude, this, this is exactly speaking to this phenomenon that you, that you have given the gift of to me, which I love so much, which is that we're always having an emotional flashback, whenever something is high stakes. Because what, what, the thing that rings out to me about that story is that that woman had a lot of guilty feelings about whether or not she wanted to talk to her mom. And she was projecting it onto you. The whole desire to scapegoat. You had a lot more to do with her, wanting to say to her, I know I'm making this up, but I feel like it's, it must be true that she doesn't want to have to say to her mom, you know, don't, don't call me every day at work. Like I have gambling to do. She was ashamed that she was spending all of her time at work wasting. So she had to. Yeah, dude. So like she's got her thing, the mothers fighting for her, for her reason you're fighting for. And it's like, none of it has anything to do with the freaking culture.

Speaker 2: (25:46)
None of them has to do with the call tracker. But I was so embarrassed about that for years that I, then my response, if I add a work situation would just be to take the blame for everything. They'd be like, who broke the dishwasher? I did. They'd be like, you weren't here even

Speaker 3: (26:01)
Talking about who did I did. I did

Speaker 2: (26:04)
It. I've made a mistake. And they're like, no, you actually, this wasn't your, and then I overcompensated by saying, I'll I up. I think I really ought to go to someone and be like, I think I really this up. I didn't do this. And I'm like, no, it's not that big of a deal. But

Speaker 3: (26:18)
Yeah, that's that, that is a very good policy. Like just immediately or if possible, let them know before they ask you that you made a mistake that, you know, because it's always forgivable at that level. It's just not forgivable when it gets,

Speaker 2: (26:32)
It got crazy, crazy. It was like, I was like, this is going to be, I don't know what is happening here, but this is out of control and Kelly and I had this get on the phone, her mom and say Saturn,

Speaker 3: (26:46)
Oh God, Oh God. Oh, that's, that's disgusting that they made you do that.

Speaker 2: (26:50)
She was, she was a nightmare. I mean, she'd got fired and she did some other weird things, but you know, it was, it was Hollywood. And, and she said she was dealing with some weird.

Speaker 3: (27:00)
I love stories about how people like off their job and embezzled money and like all kinds of crazy things for years and years. And nobody found out about it. My mother worked for a big, big organization and the, um, the head honcho had a secretary who was very officious. Like she was always telling everybody like, that's against the rules and we don't do that here. And she found, they found out that like she had been embezzling money for like 15 years to the tune of multiple millions of dollars. I mean, and she got caught and I think she might've gone to jail, but like it went on for 15. So anyway, another thing, another public service announcement when somebody is, you know, like a little extra it's, uh, it's also a flag.

Speaker 2: (27:52)
So flag and you know, my first job was at Bennison bakery in Evanston. And, um, and I had a coworker that was on me all the time about my math. And she knew that I was like, and it was before they made change for you. And you had to make change in your head at the cash flow. There was old school cash register. She was always on me and always on me and always on me and just really rude and like, and they caught her one day literally taking the whole drawers out of the thing out of the bag.

Speaker 3: (28:25)
Didn't even just take the bills out, take the whole

Speaker 2: (28:28)
Course. They caught her with the dorms. I was like, okay, so you're right. If someone is like on your, like ridiculously or, uh, talking about the rules all the time, you got to think there is something going on with this person. So yeah.

Speaker 3: (28:44)
So, so yes. And then, so the other piece of advice is, uh, things that are, that you're holding in your heart as shameful try saying I'm even just to yourself out loud, because they're probably funny by now putting out my retainer. I was my mind is that my first biggest, my first big shame that I carried around for a long time, which was completely unnecessary, was in seventh grade. And I had a crush on this boy and it was recess. And you know how in junior high, like recess, you just, you don't play necessarily. You stand around in a circle and talk to your friends, standing in a circle, talking to my friends, trying to impress this boy was maybe like six of us. And I told, or I either I told a joke or somebody didn't, I was laughing and I threw my head back and laughed.

Speaker 3: (29:33)
And my friend Taylor shut out of my, this boy, I loved on the forehead. Mike David that's fantastic. Did you want to ask me when I was, I wanted to die? And if you had asked me when I was 20, if somebody had brought that story up, when I was 20 years old, I would have wanted to die of embarrassment all over again. And I don't remember when I first, you know, realized that the story was actually funny, but it was like, it was like a gateway to telling all of my, you know, and now it's like, for me, I hear that. And I'm like, Oh, that's going to happen to Kiki. That's going to happen going to do that.

Speaker 3: (30:19)
And I told, I told on this podcast on the Pat Belton episode, I told the story about that. It was embarrassing about him and the member. Would you guys dance? If I put this, you were like, Oh, we're going to do a show. I might as well have been. I might as well have thought I was being asked to be a solid gold dancer. In that moment, you were like getting a recording today on the show. We have Lee Kirk Lee Kirk is a writer. He's also a performer and a director. He is known for, um, the giant mechanical man, which is a film that he wrote and directed and started with his wife. I'm not sure if they were married at the time, Jennifer Fischer from the office, which is very near and dear to my heart. And anyway, he's a lovely gentlemen. We had such a great time chatting with him and I think you will find him just as charming as we do. So please enjoy our interview, taking it over now. Anyway. Congratulations. You survived theater school.

Speaker 4: (31:40)
I did. I did. I guess I did. I mean, I'm here to tell,

Speaker 3: (31:44)
Of course you did. Of course you did. You lived to tell the tale and so like, did you always know you were going to go to theater school?

Speaker 4: (31:54)
No, actually I, um, I, my first year of college, I went to university of Arizona because my girlfriend went there and I just was so smitten and I followed her out there and, and went there for a year. And after that, after about six months, I was like, what am I doing here? I think I need to go to, you know, some sort of theater school. So I went back home and I, and I, you know, saved money and I auditioned for schools. And my criteria was basically I wanted to go to a school that had a, um, it was in an old city. So like a New York or a Boston, Chicago, that was the one criteria. And I, and I'm assuming the other criteria was just like, they had to have a really good picture in the American theater magazine, because I think, I think that's how I ended up choosing the schools. You know what I mean? I just flipped through and be like, Hey, look at that guy. He's, he's like dressed old timey, Ipsen costume. I want that. You know, I mean, I, I'm assuming that's what I did cause I had no clue why I ended up auditioning for DePaul or I audition for Boston university and NYU. And I think it was just because they looked glossy and fun, you know,

Speaker 5: (33:00)
Talks about this being. So we talked to John Bridges about it. We talked to, um, a lot of Ballou set up, said advertising, the marketing for DePaul theater school was fam tasks.

Speaker 4: (33:12)
It worked, it worked for me, you know, so Texas, right. I'm from Dallas. Yeah.

Speaker 5: (33:18)
You're from Dallas. And did you, did those schools come to Dallas for your audition or did you have to go someplace else?

Speaker 4: (33:24)
No, I had to go. So I went to, I went to Boston and NYU in New York for those auditions and um, and then I went to, um, new Orleans for DePaul, um, which was kind of odd. I'd never been to Chicago. And, and so, you know, I went, I went to new Orleans and it was John Bridges and, um, Joe slick, we're, we're, we're the guys doing, holding auditions. And I remember, I remember I pretty much in the bed, in my audition because, because I remember as I was walking out, like I finished my monologue or whatever, and it clearly didn't, you know, wow. Them. So as I was walking out, I was like, Oh, man, I need a, I need a last ditch effort here. So I just stopped. And I said, Hey, can I just say something? And bridges was like, sure, what's up.

Speaker 4: (34:11)
And I said, I just really liked to Paul. And I just really hope to go there and opportunity. And so I walked out going, Oh, no. And about, and then I got in, right. So then later I, um, I was talking, talking to John when I was in the school and for some reason, auditions becoming came up and I, and I asked him about how was my audition? He says, I don't know. I just remember you, you seem to really want to go there. So go here. So we said, let's give this kid a shot, I guess. No, it works. Begging worked is the, is the moral of the story?

Speaker 5: (34:43)
Well, it may have worked, but my recollection. And so of course, you know, we run a hear your recollection, but my recollection is that you were like a fantastic actor. Everything you did was like your effort effortless. I that's, what I remember about you is like you made it all look very easy.

Speaker 4: (35:02)
Yep. That, that is, uh, a high compliment from you guys. And it's astounding, honestly, a hundred percent astounding to hear that because I felt like I was just always treading water man. And I, and I, and, and acting for me felt very hard. Like it felt like I had to work really hard to kind of get into the zone of, of whatever the character was. And I think a lot of that was just, there was so many things where we were thinking about, we're thinking about our movement, our voice, our posture, our what's beyond our filter that we're using our intention. And so, like, it was hard. It was hard to just get into the place of just like, ah, creativity. Let's just let this flow. So thank you for saying that, you know, I, I appreciate it, but, but it was, um, I didn't find, I found it. I found it difficult. I found it difficult.

Speaker 6: (35:58)
I remember that you were the nicest guy of the cool kids. Does that make sense? Like the, all the people that you hung with, I was so intimidated, but you were so nice to me that I was like that guy's really nice. And I'm telling you that goes a long way when you're 17 and have no self-esteem so like, that's all,

Speaker 4: (36:19)
Well, I'm glad to hear that. That's cool. I remember here's a, here's a story. I remember Phyllis Griffin, I think thought the same thing because her, um, her stepdaughter, I think when I was a junior, her stepdaughter was in high school. She was a senior and she was, had no one go to the prom. And so Phyllis said, you take her to the prom Lee. And I was like, okay. You know? And so, so I, so I like went to the high school prom when I was like 22 years old or something like that with Phyllis's uh step-daughter.

Speaker 6: (36:53)
That is so endearing and yes, that's high praise. I'm sure Phyllis would not have trusted just anybody with that. That's amazing.

Speaker 4: (37:04)
Yeah.

Speaker 6: (37:05)
So we have talked about Phyllis a lot as a champion. Like she she's one of the people who, and actually, unfortunately it ends up being kind of like a lot of the female teachers were the ones doing the emotional labor of supporting the students. And she, she was one of those people. I never had her as a teacher, but I could certainly see her as a champion. Would you consider her one of your theater school champions?

Speaker 4: (37:29)
Well, let's see, first year I, I, you know, I was in her class and I knew her well, and I remember the first, what a, what would you call it? Quarters were in quarters, trimester. I don't know what the hell we were on the first, first three, four months, whatever they were, whenever you call those. I, um, I was just like, not feeling it there. I was like, very, I felt like a fish out of water and it was such a culture shock to me and I just was not, and I wasn't getting the acting, I wasn't getting a whole thing. Um, so I did talk to Phyllis then. And I remember she said like, you know, she kinda talked me back from the ledge. Like it takes a while to feel like you're, you know, belong somewhere. Um, but really late in later years it was, it was the Feldon Christ teachers.

Speaker 4: (38:13)
Like bill Burnett was like a huge influence on me because he saw that, uh, I was, I was slouching a lot, I guess. And so he did like table work with me once a week and it was profound like that, that, that changed. Um, so much of my perspective on things like all the, all the movement work from the school and the, you know, yoga and the Feldon Christ and, and, um, the voice work, all that stuff was great. I do have a confession. I'll say I never got movement to music. I tried to get that. I pretended like I did, like John Jenkins had bring Steven Davidson and be like, this is how you do it. I'd watch him. I'd be like, okay, I can do that. And I get up there and I'd be just impulse, like crazy moving on. And I jumped Jenkins. It'd be like shaking his head. Like, no,

Speaker 5: (39:02)
God, I can't do this. You know what? I think you're not alone there. My friend. And also we've had stories of people that came, went to that class on mushrooms, I think should have done that. And they aced it. So sobriety was your problem. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 6: (39:21)
So, uh, you mentioned all of that, that wonderful list. Uh, keeping an intention, having a filter, where have I come from? Where am I going to? And that I felt that too, there was so much about acting about learning, acting, because I don't feel I really ever started learning, acting. And if I did at all, until I went to the theater school, even I had been doing it since, you know, junior high. Um, but for me, the biggest trap was just getting caught in my head because I'm thinking about all of those things that you mentioned, and I also perceive you to be a thinker. So would it be fair to say that that was like an obstacle for you?

Speaker 4: (40:02)
Oh, I would think absolutely. Yeah. I was not this like tactile, you know, actor who could just be raw and just bring it. I, I was, you know, much more in my head. And so I really had to think my ways into the character. I mean, I remember my, I guess it was an intro. I think it was, um, maybe it was my first workshop. I can't remember, but it was, um, around, around the garden. It was, um, uh, Alan, I wanna play. And, um, I was playing this role and I was not getting it. I was just like, not getting this character and it was not working. And then bill Burnett said to me play this guy, like, he's just has a lot of, he's always thinking, he's always thinking, like, he's always trying to think of the right thing to say. And when he said that to me, I was like, well, how do I interpret that?

Speaker 4: (40:51)
And I decided to use the filter of, I don't understand people. Like I just started to look at all the other character and just play the scene as if I don't understand anything. And that just unlocked something and it came to life. Like I remember doing it in like the dress rehearsal and being like, Holy, it's, I'm doing, I'm in this thing. I'm feeling this character, I'm doing the whole thing. And it worked. And unfortunately that was probably the highest moment of my acting at the theaters go. Cause I kept trying to replicate it every time and I could never, you know, replicate it, but you know, it's like, look, I was 21 or something, 22 playing. Okay. I remember playing father Jack in dancing at luminous at right. Okay. This guy is like in his, he's like 55, I guess. And he has malaria.

Speaker 4: (41:38)
I hadn't, no, I hadn't. I had no connection to that. So I played him like a shuffling old man. I played him like he was 85, 90 years old wheezing and all this. And I remember one day Phil has said to me, you realize he's like 55. Right? She's like, he's like my age almost. So yes. And I had no use for that. I was like, I don't know how to play 50. How would I play 55? Like, all I can do is either old guy or young guy. So I'm playing old guy right now. Right. That's hilarious. So, anyway,

Speaker 6: (42:14)
Uh, so, okay. So one of the things that occurs to me about that whole thing, cause I think maybe the three of us can relate to getting stuck in our heads, but we're also all three writers. And of course that's what, you know, I mean, like of course that would be your default position. So when did you know when you were at the theater school that you were also a writer?

Speaker 4: (42:35)
No, I had no, no clue that came much later. That came from desperation basically because, um, well I'll say this, first of all, I did write something at the theater school. I wrote my, my monologue for my showcase, which was an absolute show. Okay. This monologue was terrible and it was, it was awful. Like my showcases were a bomb. Okay. But what we can get to that, but, but, um, I didn't know how to write. Right. So the writing came later when I was in LA doing the occasional beer commercial, sitting around, waiting for a job and realized, well, dude, I can sit here while I'm sitting here. I can write like you can't act in your living room obviously because no, one's there. If no one's there to watch you it's doesn't make sense, but you can write in your living room alone and actually you have to write alone in your living room. So I was like, Hey, I'm going to try this. And so that was when that whole part of my life, my life began when I just started writing, um, to, to write basically to write myself an acting role, which then just doors open. And as you know, I just followed, you know, if a door opened, I went through it and that just turned into a whole new career for me.

Speaker 6: (43:48)
So did you start, uh, I mean, getting work as a writer at that same time, or did that take longer?

Speaker 4: (43:55)
Well, I'll tell you the story is what happens. So I, so John Cabrera and I were living together and, um, we both put 2,500 bucks into this new, the new camera it's called the Panasonic DVX 100 or whatever. It was $2,500 was everything to me. Like I put 2,500 bucks and that was a ton. I was only teaching acting at that point and I was doing the occasional commercial. Right. So that was a huge investment. So we bought it, we played with it. We were like, this is amazing. Look at the image of this thing. And then it just sat there. And I was like, well, man, I spent 2,500 bucks. I'm gonna try to write something for this. So I sat and I wrote this short, which is, it was called the man who invented the moon. I think John's got it on his, um, on his Vimeo page.

Speaker 4: (44:39)
I think if anybody wants to look at it, but, but I, I started reading a bunch of books, screenwriting. I found this one guy, John Truby, who, who taught a scene, a story structure that just completely resonated with me. And I just plugged that in. I plugged his structured into my story and it just, it worked. And I just felt so empowered all of a sudden like, wow, look at this man. I've been sitting here for years, like just trying to fit like a square peg into a round hole and now it's fits. And so I just decided to keep writing. Then I was like, I went to theater school for four years. I don't want to now go to creative writing school or film score or something. I'm just going to learn by doing right. So I just started writing as much as I could. And then, and then it would turn into, um, occasional job, but also it just turned into more, more than anything. It turned into me sort of finding what I like to write about and finding my, my sort of voice, you know, and led me to making some movies and stuff like that.

Speaker 3: (45:40)
Do you think that, I mean, cause I, I also think that people get attracted to an aspect of something like it could be that you're attracted to acting because acting is the only thing that's presented to you when, what you really like is performance of all types or what you really like is storytelling of all types. So w w would that be true for you that that acting was your in to what you really needed to get to, which is this essential part of you that as a writer?

Speaker 4: (46:08)
Honestly, not really. I mean, the reason I was re I had to write is because I couldn't get a job as an actor. I couldn't audition. I sucked at auditioning. I will say right now, I bet I hold the, the record for the worst eater. I would like to

Speaker 3: (46:25)
We'll do a run for isolated as Ben [inaudible]. Yeah.

Speaker 4: (46:33)
Oh, I've got some doozies. We can talk, we can, but, but, you know, I didn't, and, and this goes back to the theater school, um, man, there was so many great things that I learned at that school and so many great teachers and, uh, and, but I felt like, and I didn't realize this until years later, but I feel like there was an ingredient that just got left out. And that was me basically. I learned everything about my body and how to break it all down and how it all works. But when it came to filling it up then with me and my specificity of who I am that just got lost. And so, um, and so I got out into the world and I just like, I was, I was not getting work. I just couldn't audition. Well, I could not walk into a room and just like, bring it right.

Speaker 4: (47:22)
So because of that, I started writing, you know, and I enjoyed finally doing something. But to be honest with you, I would love to be asking right now. I mean, I like what I do, but I also miss acting tremendously, you know, especially theater, you know, acting on the stage. Do you ever, like, I mean, do you audition for things or you just let it go? I can't do the audition. That's the thing. So maybe I'll try again, but I just kind of feel like, you know what, maybe that will come back around sometime, but I don't want to get back into like getting a headshot and like going on a meeting. I just, I just never felt right for me. So I'm kind of holding, that's a very tough part of doing all of this. Yes.

Speaker 5: (48:08)
That's why I just, yeah. And I'm like, Oh, no problem. I'll just write something for Lee. That's a pretty easy write something for you. We'll put you on the thing. I mean, auditioning is not acting to me. It is a part of the business of making dollars as an actor. But I know so many people that are like that, that just there and Gina and I talk a lot about confidence, right. And the confidence at being easy to say, a trickier to manifest than anything on the planet and that's not acting, but it's part of the business. And so I just want to let you know that, that, like I talking to so many people and being an actor, myself and a writer, um, I just am the therapist in me. My former therapist self wants me to say to you that you are a good actor and then I'll just show you not your strong suit.

Speaker 4: (49:01)
That's it. Thank you. That's it? Well, it, it really is true that the audition is a very specific skill. And, um, and I, I do wish at the theater school that there was a lot more attention paid to that and a lot more, you know, more of a philosophy or a strategy about what it is. And, um, it's funny because we did audition all the time. Right? We were always auditioning for plays, but within that bubble, it's very different. You know, it's, it's a whole different thing when you get out into, in, into the world and you know, and I see it as a director when I'm auditioning and you can see it's very clear, like this is when it really became clear to me because you can have an actor walk in and they're, they're, they're who they are. They have their own rhythm, their own way of speech, their way, their, their thing, they're who they are.

Speaker 4: (49:46)
Right. And then you say, okay, action. And then that, that person does not disappear. They begin their audition and you still see that person. Right. And it's compelling. That's when you go, Oh, that's this, person's doing it the way that only they would do it is specific to them. Whereas if you have someone come in and you say, okay, action. And then they suddenly, they become acting and they're doing a character immediately. It's false. Right. I was always the guy who was doing the character. Right. I was never the guy who just was like, okay, here I am. And then I'm just gonna slightly adjust. And I'm still me just giving you this performance, you know? So, and I, I, that's just a weird thing and it's a specific thing. And I feel like there's a way to teach that. I wish it was taught.

Speaker 6: (50:33)
Yeah. And it just, it did just get like shoe horned at the end, in the, you know, in the fourth year it was like, okay, hurry up and learn how to, first of all, hurry up and transform all of your thinking from theater, into film and television. And it really blindsided me. I didn't really see that coming I should have, but I didn't see it coming. And, and then, yeah. And then you had, uh, uh, I feel like audition class was also one, was it once a week?

Speaker 4: (51:02)
Yeah. It wasn't a, it was once a week. Yeah.

Speaker 6: (51:04)
Once a week. So you did once a week for whatever. Like not that many weeks, not enough weeks come out of it and be a confident auditioner.

Speaker 4: (51:13)
No. And I think, I don't know what they're doing at the school now, but I feel like they should really be, um, take some time, think about that, think about the audition and get someone in there who can really teach it because there are people who teach it they're out in LA and, um, and it it's, it's, it's makes a huge difference. It really makes a difference. And, and it's like, you were saying, Jen, it's a different thing than acting. Oh, you know, it kind of goes to what you were saying. You know about me. I'm very thought intellectual. Right. So I can't just, I can't just be a character. Right. Which is always my fault with the audition, because you get a thing it's three days later, next day, you got to go on and just do this thing. And I needed, I always needed the whole rehearsal process in order to get there. Right. And so walking in, just showing it up and getting there, I, I just, but there's a way to do it, you know?

Speaker 6: (52:04)
Yeah. And it's, it's a knowable way. It's, it's not it's, I mean, it's a mystery to me, but it's not a mystery to people. Yeah. Go ahead, boss.

Speaker 5: (52:15)
I was just going to ask you, um, about your, um, process of you, you talked a little bit about the showcase process for you and I, I mean, I know it could be, it can be cringe-worthy and painful, but, um, what was that experience? Because we've, I it's just so fascinating because that was our coming out into the world. Mine wasn't so great. Either. I did a monologue that I should never have been doing. That was like a six year old lady. I mean, it was a mess, but, um, so what was that experience like for you going to, did you go to New York or just LA in Chicago.

Speaker 4: (52:46)
Okay. So we just did LA and Chicago and, um, well, okay. So in my fourth year I got an agent before I graduated. Okay. So, um, and Jane alderman said, I got someone you can meet. I met this guy and I, so I had an agent. I think that, that wasn't good for me because I think that's part of the reason I sort of blew off the showcase a little bit. I was like, I'll just write my own monologue. I already got an agent anyway, I'm not moving to LA, I'm going to be in Chicago. So, so I didn't consciously think that, but I just think the fire wasn't there. I wasn't feeling like, Oh man, this is my moment. And so I did the Chicago one and then we went to LA and when we went to LA and I stood up and I did my terrible monologue, I immediately, after I finished, I was like, Oh.

Speaker 4: (53:39)
I feel like I just really made a huge mistake. And I felt terrible because, you know, it's like, you're leading this. I felt like we're leading up to this four years of doing this. It's all leads up to this. And I felt like, Oh man, I just, I just lost my chance, you know? And, um, and I kind of did in a way, I mean, I didn't get any, I got a few little things, but I didn't get any attention from that showcase. And, and so, um, going, looking back, I would have obviously all much differently, but, um, so it wasn't great, but it's funny. I don't know what the showcase is like now I don't know if they're doing the same thing, but if they're not, I do feel like the LA showcase, it needs to be reinvented a little bit because, you know, I don't know you got all these film and TV people, you bring them into the theater and you send them to a monologue, but there's a screening room. Like next door, like create, uh, create, uh, a real, you know, create, take those monologues, get a camera and a cinematographer, something that looks very nice and just spend a day shooting everybody, doing their monologue, and then bring everybody to a screening room and play them on the big screen. And let people see them act in the medium that these people are used to seeing people acting right.

Speaker 5: (54:50)
That's brilliant. I never thought that that's brilliant. And also they could watch it at their leisure. They don't all have to go to you can, but it's also so much easier to send that to people via email, then making or asking film and TV people to watch 20 monologues on film. You know what I mean? Which is what they do. They did this year because of COVID. And I just thought if I'm a casting director watching 20 monologues times, however many schools versus watching scenes, like from either from stuff that exists or stuff that doesn't exist. I mean, that could be a whole, I'm just saying Lee, it's time to get on, got to get on the horn to whoever's running the show.

Speaker 4: (55:29)
Well, listen, I've learned from, from years in LA that you, it it's helpful if you do most of the heavy lifting for, for people who are behind the other side of the desk. Right. If you do most of the lifting for them, then they'll get it. But if you ask them to meet you halfway or, or to do more, you know, more of the lifting, it's not usually a good, a good outcome, but listen, the showcases work. It's not like it hasn't worked. I mean, many people did well in the showcase. So that might just be me saying, you know, correct.

Speaker 5: (56:03)
So, but you said you blew it off because you had an agent, but I, I gathered that the rest of that story was, and then it didn't go that great with that agent,

Speaker 4: (56:13)
Right? Yeah. No, I didn't go. But yeah, I mean, I did some auditions, but you know, like I could not addition, I mean, it just goes back to my own thing is that I just could not find it, find my comfort in the audition. So I got it. I got a little work in Chicago from, from that, but not very much, you know,

Speaker 5: (56:32)
What was the piece that you wrote for yourself? I mean, I know you said it was terrible, but what was it about?

Speaker 4: (56:38)
Oh gosh, it was about, I think it was, I hardly remember. I think it was about a guy who was heartbroken or something, but it was, I mean, I'm telling you guys it was horrible. It was, it was, I I'm surprised that that Jane alderman was like, yeah, do that. That's cool.

Speaker 5: (56:56)
That's what we've, we've talked about this before, where it's like that we didn't have, we didn't have someone saying, um, Hey, this may not be the best fit. So like, let me work with you to find something, you know, it was sort of like, and, and, you know, in fairness, John Bridges said that like, people were like, I have to do this, but we were kids. I mean, we were almost kids, basically. We were almost kids. And so it's like, it's like, we should've had some guidance of like, no, no, no, don't do. I mean, the stuff we're hearing people did for their show was insane. Some of it like hair Belichick's or whatever, I mean, whatever that was. And so, um, I'm just saying, I bet it's not, as I bet it wasn't just the right. Best bet. It didn't showcase you the right way.

Speaker 5: (57:43)
That's all I'm saying. And, and, and look, we were kids, man, it's supposed to do that's exactly what it was supposed to. I mean, that's the promise of the premise. There is you are going to be seeing people really at their best with the material that's right. For them. And, and, you know, almost to a person that we've talked to, people felt that they was age inappropriate or, or, or it was just inappropriate in the sense that you're auditioning with a piece that's not a role you would ever get cast for. Right. So like the bare minimum requirements should be. I evaluate you. I see. Okay. Lee, you're, you're a good looking guy. You got blonde hair, you got the slight Southern accent. Okay. This is the kind of role that you're, you're going to get cast in a Sam shepherd something. And so that's the piece that you should use.

Speaker 5: (58:37)
Right? I don't remember any of that. Well, I don't remember the piece I did at all. I have literally zero recollection of it, but I'm certain it wasn't anything related to like me and what I would've gotten cast as. Right. And so now Gina, Gina, and I both write monologues for people because I, I saw that whole and I thought, okay, this is bonkers. That, that we're expecting people to get cast in film and TV and having them do these monologues from burn this from 1989 or only Anna or something, that's not okay anymore. So I think, I think it's changing, but slowly. And I think, um, anyway, we could have benefited from a little bit more of the help making the transition into, into, um, film and TV world. So I, I just, I don't know. I have so much compassion for us. I just look back and I'm like, man, we really tried. And I don't know, you seem to have a good memory of the shows you did. Like, do you remember the show? The dumbwaiter that you did? Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. So for people, obviously it's a UNESCO show, right? Gina Penter. Okay. Yeah. So you guys took the ceiling off of the movement room and had some kind of police situation going, do you remember that?

Speaker 4: (59:56)
That was a little slight of hand. It made it look like we took the seat off. We actually didn't. But that was, yeah, that was so Sean directed that it was Val and, and myself and, uh, that was fun. That was cool. And we actually read it. So,

Speaker 5: (01:00:14)
Uh, workshop.

Speaker 4: (01:00:16)
No, no, this is just something we did on our own. We were like, we want to get a dumbwaiter. So we're just going to put on a production of the dumbwaiter.

Speaker 5: (01:00:22)
That's cool. I don't know how we found

Speaker 4: (01:00:24)
The time for that. I mean, where did we find the time to do that? Well, yeah, but we weren't working

Speaker 5: (01:00:30)
On your, you weren't working.

Speaker 4: (01:00:35)
Yeah. I was like, I don't need to do the showcase. Let's do the dumbwaiter guy.

Speaker 5: (01:00:39)
It was good. That was a good,

Speaker 4: (01:00:42)
Oh, that's so cool. You say that. So, yeah, so we did that. And then when we graduated, um, we formed a little theater company. Um, do you guys know that the Chopin cafe and course. Okay. So we met up with the owner of that building and he was like, the cafe at that time was empty and he was like, listen. And the theater and this, by the way, the feed in the basement, there was a big theater next door, but then it was a theater in the basement was beautiful, coolest space. And we were like, okay, listen, we will run. We will open up this coffee shop and run this coffee shop. We will open a business if then we can use that space downstairs to put on shows. And he was like deal because he wanted that coffee shop and he just wanted the traffic.

Speaker 4: (01:01:24)
Right. So we were like, okay, cool. So for like our graduation presence, we all got like some money from our parents. And we like opened a coffee shop. Like I'm talking like, met with like coffee distributors and in coffee cup distributed, all this kind of stuff, literally opened a coffee shop. Like every morning at 7:00 AM sweeping out the shop. It was like [inaudible] and myself and Sean Gunn. And, um, who else was involved with that? This collaboration? No, it wasn't collaboration, but like there was other people involved like Sarah chopper and Anaconda makeup. We were all kind of involved in this thing. So, um, so we did three. So we did let's see, we did a show called the hot house pincher play down in that basement. We did a cloud nine Caryl Churchill down in the basement. And then we also did, this is the dumbwaiter reference.

Speaker 4: (01:02:11)
We did that, um, play as well, but we didn't do it there, but we did it as a part of this little theater group. We did it at a festival. Um, what we found is that we had no business running a coffee shop because we just literally like our capital just slowly disappeared into, we had no money. And we were like, I guess we're shutting the coffee shop. And that was the end of that little era. But it was about, it was about nine months, maybe a year of, of just like doing theater and trying to sell coffee. You know, that was our, that was our first thing we did. And we got out of, out of school,

Speaker 6: (01:02:45)
God, the, the unending, um, ambition and, and, and wishful thinking or better way to say it was optimism of young people. I mean, it's both the thing, cause it could have gone either way. It could have totally taken off and it could have changed the course of all of the people's lives, who are, who are a part of it. So on the one hand you don't, if you don't have that, then you have people who never take any risks because they never, they, they find a way to always convince themselves that something won't work. Um, but it's cute to think back to that time, because we did that too. Uh, Eric Slater and, and, um, Russell and, and John was John, I forget, I'm sorry, John. I forget if you were a part of this or not, but anyway, we did that too. We formed a little theater company and I think it also, you, I personally needed that. I needed that transition out of the theater school in a way to prove to myself that I can still, I mean, not that I think became of that, but I can still do this outside of the confines of the theater school itself. It was, it turned out to be a really instrumental thing. So, so then, so you graduated and you stayed in Chicago for a bit, and then you lived

Speaker 4: (01:04:05)
Just, we did this theater thing for about a year and I stayed for that long. And then Sean had moved to LA, um, he got like a movie and he went to LA and he was like, dude, you need to move out here. And, um, and so, uh, at that point I was like, nothing was really happening for me. Uh, I still had the agent, but like, it wasn't really going anywhere. And I just kind of felt like, uh, I just felt like I needed a change. So I moved out to LA and, um, you know, and then struggled out there for, for a long time, you know? Um, but, but it was cool. Like, it was cool. Like I don't, I don't regret it. You know, I missed Chicago tremendously and I still miss miss Chicago. You know, there's just something about that city that, that is, is really, um, it's always going to be with me. It was a really formative time in my life. Like that, that time of the theater school was super important for me. And, uh, and part of it was just being in Chicago, just being in this really cool city. That was nothing like the suburbs of Dallas, right?

Speaker 6: (01:05:07)
Yeah. No, definitely. There's no comparison, no. Uh, lead, did you get warned or were you one of those people that never was on warning? Never worried about being

Speaker 5: (01:05:18)
Surprisingly,

Speaker 4: (01:05:19)
I never got a warning. I don't know how that happened. I can remember some things. I did that merited. Oh, it was very strong warning. Okay. But for some reason it never came. I always expected it, but you know what, here's the thing I have a question for you guys. Did you know that there was a cut system when you applied and went to DePaul? I didn't either. So I remember showing up the first day it was like a meeting. Like there was a meeting, like it was like a get together. Like everybody come together and, you know, a meet and greet kind of thing before the first day of school. And so I go to that and everyone's talking about the cut system and there's a quota and, and I was like, what? There's that I could get cut. I, I, I've gone through so much to get to the school from like leaving my other university of Arizona, taking a year off, finally getting my here. And you're telling me, it might last one year. I was like, terrified by that.

Speaker 5: (01:06:17)
Me too. I was a complete surprise to me too. I mean, it was, yeah. I, I, and I remember telling my mom that and she was like, that is, that, is that allowed? Is that apparently, apparently that's what they do here. And it was very, and it, and it created, I mean, I guess you're saying about the, the students were the ones that were talking about that, but, but it, it did create this, um, Paul over the first year experience of, it just felt very tenuous all the time. We did learn from John Bridges that there was no quota that when they admitted a class of students, they, you know, to themselves basically viewed it as a promise that if all of those students did well, they could all advance through the whole four years. But coincidentally, that never happened and always shrunk by 50%. I mean, it's hard to know.

Speaker 5: (01:07:18)
What's, what's the word I know it's not like that now, but when we went, I can definitely say, and, and the thing is, I didn't, you know, to be honest, I didn't bring this up with John, but I was cut and then not cut. So I was cut after my second year. And then a month later, got a letter saying, actually we made a mistake. I don't know, but it was the worst. Cause I was like, Oh, I guess I'll go to university of Madison now or whatever it is I was going to do. And then they're like, actually we want you back. So they had some problem areas. Let's just call it what it is. I mean, they had some problem areas. Yeah.

Speaker 4: (01:07:50)
That's, that's bizarre. That's, that's a lot to put you through.

Speaker 5: (01:07:52)
Yeah. You know,

Speaker 4: (01:07:54)
Come on back. Oh great. You guys really want me,

Speaker 5: (01:07:58)
It was really strange. It was really strange, but so can you, can you tell us, are you directing, what are you what's happening? Are you, I want to hear about good things that are happening for sure.

Speaker 4: (01:08:09)
Well, the same way that I just, you know, with writing, if the door opened, I went through it and the same thing happened with directing. So, um, I, yeah, I I'm directing, I've directed a few, you know, a couple of films and a little TV and music videos, stuff like that. But, um, but that's the same thing. Like I had this movie, um, that, uh, it's called the giant mechanical man that I had had written back in 2008 or nine or something. And actually that movie was, uh, was kind of based on what we're talking about in terms of Chicago and just how, you know, one thing I missed about Chicago so much, and I still miss this is I, I love the people who they're, the artists, the theater artists, who like our content to do great theater. They come up with really cool and they're content to do it for a room full of, you know, 50 people night after night and continue to do great stuff.

Speaker 4: (01:09:01)
And I just, I, when you're in LA and you don't see that, it, it, it meant a lot to me. You know, I remember, I remember a play that John Cabrera told me about that was, it was, uh, it was a car you would get in the car as the audience member get in the backseat of the car. And the two actors were in the front seat of the car and then they would drive around and they do the play as they're driving, they're having a conversation and you're just watching this now. That is so cool. Right. That's awesome. That's awesome. So I wrote this movie that was basically, I took that idea and it's like, what if it's just one person is the only person who gets your art. And that was this movie called the giant mechanical man. Anyway, that's just a segue about Chicago.

Speaker 4: (01:09:39)
But, um, I, um, what was I saying? Oh yeah. So that movie we had, uh, Jason Segel attached, it was going to be made for, you know, like who knows five to $10 million. And we had this British director and then the financial crash crisis hit and it all went away. And, um, Chris Messina had read it and, and had had a meeting with him and he was like, dude, you should just direct this movie. Let's make it for nothing. And you direct it. And again, it was one of those moments where I was like, okay, I'm going to just step up here. And just, I've never directed anything before, but I'm just going to go for it, you know, and, um, and learn as I do, you know, and, but be honest, the, the, all of the training I had at, at the theater school was instrumental in me being comfortable as a director.

Speaker 4: (01:10:29)
You know, I just focused on the actors. I just talked to the actors, made them feel comfortable and, um, let the cinematographer deal with lenses and all that kind of stuff. And that it was a really easy fit for me. And that would not have happened without the theater school. And the writing wouldn't have happened. You know, the, the ability to write sort of dialogue and structure out a scene a hundred percent came from just doing it so many times at the theater school, doing so many different scenes and thinking about thinking about all the things that we talked about what's beyond, or what the, you know, what what's, um, what's the, again, like the filter of this character and, you know, so it all came full circle and just a weird way. I think that's what it does for almost everybody. And to what you were saying about

Speaker 6: (01:11:14)
Directing and attending to the actors, to me, that's when I'm, cause I direct you for theater, it's 100% of the job is attending to your actors and which is why I never understood, um, people like Woody Allen, who I guess they never ever talked to the actor. They just, they figure that, you know, if they cast you that th you know, they feel you're really capable of doing it. And I mean, that sounds bizarro to me. I would, I would really, really, really hate that, that, that, that sounds like a, a recipe because, you know, we're all just so insecure and we just all really want somebody to say, w you know, periodically frequently, you're doing good.

Speaker 4: (01:11:53)
Yeah. That's great. Yeah, no kidding. I mean, that's, it's, I mean, and I think that that understanding of an actor, like we all have that because we've been through it and we are right. We are actors. And, and so that understanding of like what it takes, um, personally, to put yourself on the line to be the one that the camera's pointing at, and you've got to deliver a lot, there's a lot, you know? And, um, and so, yeah, th th to understand that from the other side of the camera, to be able to say, Hey, man, that's good. I mean, you're, you're, you're, you're nailing it. You're you got it. Yeah.

Speaker 6: (01:12:28)
Oh, that sounds great. You're an actor's director, which is fantastic when you,

Speaker 4: (01:12:33)
It's where I feel comfortable, you know, it's just what I latch on to. Um, and it's, it's what, whenever I feel a little bit confused, I just latch on to that, and then I feel much better.

Speaker 6: (01:12:44)
Yeah. I, and I honestly, we didn't get that at the theater school either. We didn't get very many attaboys. I mean, you know, I guess like you could say not getting cut is a version of, it's a version of that, but it's, it fails to really and encompass, I mean, more so, like in intros, I don't know if you remember your intros. That's what we did in our second year. Yeah. That was a little more of a caring environment, I think, because they knew we were little babies and needed that, but after that it was cold.

Speaker 4: (01:13:19)
Yeah. There wasn't, it's true. There was not a lot of, of, of attaboys. Um, uh, you know, it's funny because one of the things I really liked about the theater school, when I, especially when I first arrived there was, cause I was just coming from I'd done high school plays and stuff. Right. It was all just fun. Like in my mind, I think it's fun. You just have fun, you know, you just stand up there and have fun. And I, and I appreciated when I showed up that these teachers were like, this is hard work. The bar is high. Okay. And this is, you got to take this seriously. It's not just about having fun and you know, some more extreme than others, you know? I mean, David, Abby, Callie, he was like a hockey coach of mine. You know, he was like, if you don't, you know, I remember like Sean and I used to talk about, like, he told one kid, if you don't get up right now.

Speaker 4: (01:14:08)
Cause we were, it was a fear of feeling the heat exercise and there's one kid like way over dead. It you're just supposed to stand there and feel the heat. Right. He's like falling on the ground and he's so hot, he's sweating. And I've called, he's like, get up right now and feel the heat. And the kid's like, I am feeling the heat. And he said, he's like, if you don't get up right now and start feeling the heat, I'm going to do everything I can to get you out of this school. And the kids like, okay, you gotta stop it. But like, like I appreciate it. I've Callie kind of being a hard-ass like, I liked him. I remember him saying, you know what, guys theater is expensive. Tickets are very expensive. You have to go deep. You have to go hard. It has to be good. You gotta make it worth it. I needed to hear that. Like I just like liked, I liked thinking about the work as something that was important and that needed, you know, scrutiny. Maybe I overdid it, you know, maybe I got too into that. And maybe that's why I couldn't like audition. Maybe the fun was lost a little bit, but I don't know. I just liked,

Speaker 5: (01:15:15)
Oh, it's a, it's a good thing. It's a good thing to remind people of. And as you were talking, I was just thinking, yeah. Cause I had David too. He, he did have so many gems, so many wonderful things to say. I wish I had kept my notebooks from that time. Cause I, it would be so fun to go back now because I remember writing down some of these things for me though, it got all, you know, tangled up in, you know, I'll just say that what I felt was like the emotional terrorism of what he did that I don't really think I cared. I could carry any of it with me because being to be in his class for me was to be hypervigilant. Just so it became about like doing the thing that wouldn't make him say he was going to throw his shoe at you.

Speaker 7: (01:16:03)
Right. Which

Speaker 5: (01:16:05)
Is not the same thing as finding, you know, the objective in the scene. Yeah. And I think some people can, are equipped better for whatever reason. We're finding, it's like a research project. When we talk to people, some people have the resiliency inside or the something where they can process what the teachers are saying. And there's those of us who are, I couldn't even, I was like, uh, in a fugue state. So I don't even remember what they said, but I do know I was terrified and that works for some people. Like it's an act, it's an actual technique to be terrified. You produce like sports. If you're used to sports, like Mike Ditka is a real, but he had the best team that ever lived. And the bears, you know, so like, um, it works for some people I think

Speaker 4: (01:16:54)
So said that that was for me, like he reminded me of a coach of a, literally a hockey coach that I had, you know, and it was like, I understand this, man. I understand this lingo. I understand that I gotta go harder. And it's, it's about striving for something better. And, and uh, but I can also understand how you might be like, Hey man, I'm just like a kid trying to just smell

Speaker 5: (01:17:20)
And that's. And that just brings me back to like, it's a weird thing to go to a conservatory when you're 17 years old, because it's expecting a lot, um, from people whose brains are not developed and some people thrive, thrive, and look, we made it through. So I'm not saying, you know, like all his loss, but it's so fascinating to me to see what works for different people. You know what we're on onset. It's the same thing. So I have had directors that have been like super cuddly and I do great work. And then I've had directors that say, stop all that. What you're doing, don't do that and do something else. And I'm like, but I think that there are good lessons. You know, we learned by pain and we learned by, but it's it. We were just, you know, it was hard when you're a kid. It's just hard. It's hard when you're a kid. Yeah.

Speaker 4: (01:18:03)
Well, it's hard not to feel like, you know, this is the gospel, like you're in this school and it becomes your whole world. Right. It becomes acting. It becomes the acting world to you. And it's hard to not realize it's impossible actually to not think this is just a few opinions. This is like not, this is not the world of, of a career in acting and theater, whatever film and TV. This is just a few people like, you know, and this is just, and like, you look around at the other actors and there's all this, Oh, who's doing what? It doesn't matter. Like it like, but you don't, you can't, but you can't separate it when you're that age because you're in it, you're in the bubble. And like, w what else are you going to do? How do you, how do you have anything to compare it against? You have no life experience?

Speaker 6: (01:18:48)
No, that, that is so deep. It's just a few, it's a few people's opinions. And like, to somebody who's in theater school right now, who's in the middle of like this intense questioning of themselves. Whenever I would say that at the, not that you shouldn't take it to heart, you shouldn't try to integrate meaningful notes. You shouldn't take it seriously. But like, at the end of the day, you know, it's not as if there's a big caucus of all, you know, people who, who, who taken acting performances and they all say, yes, what David says is right. That is, that is what acting is. Or, you know, it's, it's, it's just sort of his idea. I wanted to hear just also a little bit more about, um, you know, I, it sounds like you did theater in high school, so you had some, some sense of, of it. It may or may not have been the kind of intense and rigorous theater that you ended up doing at the theater school, but like, how did your expectation of what you were going to experience there? Match up with the reality?

Speaker 4: (01:19:50)
Oh, that's a good question. Well, first of all, I don't know what I was expecting. I guess I was expecting, you know, I'm going to be that kid in the photo. Right. But the old timey costume on doing the theater. Right. So I guess I thought we were just going to put on costumes all day and do accents. I had no clue what I was getting into none. So like the first day. Okay. So the night before, the first day, some guys in the dorm were like, Hey, Lee, you want to go to, um, uh, a bar is called Kelsey's right. Kelsey, Kel. Maybe it was Kelly's. Yeah. I don't know what it was, but they were like, you buy a mug for five bucks and then for a quarter you get to fill it up all night with beer. Right. I was like, Oh, that sounds good.

Speaker 4: (01:20:36)
Let's go. Okay. Terrible, terrible. Okay. Because the next morning at eight 30 or whatever, I'm in yoga class and my jeans, by the way, not even this it's, cause I didn't know, I was supposed to wear sweats, hung over and I'm doing dog pose for the first time. I've never even knew this thing existed. You know, I'm like, what is this? And I'm not feeling good. And then the rest of the days like that, it's like pelvic clock and ha and all the. And then by the end of the day, it's like, you're eating thick space. And I'm just like, what have I gotten into, what is this place? It, I did no clue. Right. So kind of for the first quarter, like I, or trying whatever it is, I did not get, I was not getting it, but then it clicked, then something clicked and I totally got it and all that stuff.

Speaker 4: (01:21:24)
I was like, I was like, give me more of this. Like I loved once I understood having awareness of what that is, have awareness of your, you know, your body and the way you breathe and what you move and all that stuff. I was like kind of an addict. Like I wanted as much of that as I could get. Um, and, um, and it really worked. And again, I thought the teachers were great. Like, they, they really did a great job teaching that. Um, but I did not think that's what I was getting into in any way. And it made, you know, I'm sure for you guys to make conversations, you go home for Christmas, like, what are you studying? Studying yoga. People are like, what? Yoga? I think

Speaker 6: (01:22:03)
I made $30,000 a year

Speaker 4: (01:22:05)
Going to doing yoga. What do you, what? And I'd try to explain it, although I had no reference. Oh, because it's, um, you know, uh, acting is a, you I'd be like, I don't know why. I don't know.

Speaker 6: (01:22:17)
I mean, I think my mom said you're making yogurt. Like that was kind of along the lines. So I get ya. Yeah. So it's, it's um, bothered. I talk a lot about cults and the theater school is, is a, is a kind of a cult. Um, but mostly from the perspective that it's very hard to explain to anybody else what it is that you're doing there. And it's, um, and it's so all consuming. I mean, in part it's because of the schedule, because they had us busy from morning till night, but it's also being, learning, acting is, is so much about either changing or at least event valuating, like what's happening with you as a person. So if it's well for you,

Speaker 5: (01:23:06)
You're, you're, you're integrating these ideas and these new skills and these, but you're also like reconciling it with your understanding of who you are as a person. You're literally developing your identity as you are putting on other identities. It's just such a complete mind. Yeah,

Speaker 4: (01:23:25)
It is. It, it was, it was very, it was all very confusing and that, and that's kinda what I meant when I said, I feel like the fourth year should really be about, you've got all these things in your toolbox now, and then now we're gonna, we're gonna forget about all that stuff now. It's there, you got it. You know how to move and you know how to, you got great posture now and your voice is totally locked in. Okay. Now let's just, let's bring you to this. Let's bring you who you are to this. And let's focus on that because that is the art, that's where the art happens. That's you know, and so, I dunno, I don't know. I don't know what they could've done differently, but there, there are certainly exercises that you could do and just spend the whole year, just like filling up, filling it up, filling it up with your own. And just being, being that, you know, being, being a full actor.

Speaker 5: (01:24:18)
It's so interesting because I, the one note that I got from a director that changed my life, that I feel like could have saved my life in school was he said, the thing you think about yourself, that isn't going to get you cast is the exact thing that's going to get you cast. And I said, what eight? I thought I was good. I said, can I give you a million dollars? You just, and Andy, and he said, figure that out because when you figure that out, you're going to be unstoppable and you're going to be totally undeniable. And I thought, Oh my God. Oh my God. So I think that, that if that had sort of come into play in that fourth year, I think it would have been an easier transition, but I know it's hard to teach that, but you're right. People do teach it and people. And so, um, what I'm thinking is that the three of us are gonna open up a fourth year. Acting's just called the fourth year. And that's, you know, but I hear what you're saying. It's like bringing us. We're like, you're okay at a girl, you studied, you got all the three years now, we're going to bring you to the work and you're show you how to do your best. So you book stuff and don't end up living on your parents' couch for 10 years or whatever,

Speaker 4: (01:25:32)
Because th th the funny thing is, as I reflect back on, on the time there is that, you know, I would get a role. Right. I get cast in a role, even if it's a scene in class, whatever let's say it's, um, brick kind of is another guy who kind of Hudson riff. Okay. Yeah. I remember doing that right. In my mind, there was a way to do that role. And I was striving to find the way to do that role. Like, there was an ideal that I was striving find instead of how do you do this role? Right. I always felt like I was trying to like, do what the, the thing that they wanted me to do. Right. And it never, no one ever said, no, no, do it your way, man. Don't, don't do it. Don't try to do what Brando did or whoever played the role first, do it your way we want your way. And it, and if someone said that to me, I feel like a light would have gone off. That's it?

Speaker 6: (01:26:32)
Yeah. It's the difference between working from the outside, in, or the inside out it's much easier to work from the inside out. It's, there's so much less, um, it's like a hat on a hat when you're trying to do Brando doing brick, who is doing, you know, whatever, it's much easier, if you can say, well, we'll just, what are the ways in which brick is likely not whether the ways in which Lee is like Brando doing yeah. Toward himself to be something that he can never ever be. And I do listen, it could be that they really did say this to me, and I just couldn't hear it, but I, I do really feel like it would have been nice to hear. Um, you're just finding the parts of yourself that are in this character. You're not trying to put this, you know, you know, whatever layer of paint over yourself and hope that nobody will and hope because for me, it was like, and hope that nobody sees what you're really like, because that's completely uninteresting and wrong for this. You have to, you have to just be this, this other person that has no connection to you.

Speaker 4: (01:27:42)
Well, I think that it's funny because I can't fault anybody. Like, I feel like, again, I feel like the teachers were all teaching their discipline really well. And they're, you know, I don't fault anyone, but I do feel like there was an overall, it was lacking. The school was lacking sort of an oval or overall strategy or philosophy that, that, that included that, that included, listen, we got to keep reminding these kids that, you know, this is about them. And this is like, as we're asking them to hit this ideal, let's also remind them that, you know, that it's about them becoming their own actor person in this, you know, cause everyone's just saying, no, you gotta do better than that. Better. Not better than that, but like it's like, but w right, I'm only a kid. I don't know how to do better than that.

Speaker 5: (01:28:37)
Starting from the premise of, and there's a S there's a school in Chicago called Blackbox Academy that a friend of mine started that literally the one of their tenants is you are enough because, and you are enough let's people. So off the hook for tea, and you are enough, be better at this particular thing. Like, you're not great at your voice, but you are enough. And, and it gives you freedom to be like, Oh, Oh, I don't have to. So, but it's really hard. It's hard to teach that at the same time, not let people off the hook for their bad habits. So I think it becomes a way of trying to trick each, like, tease it out of what. So that's why, you know, it's a hard thing to have an acting school because such a bizarre thing to do to mix of psychology. It's a mix of, um, human behavior and body language. I mean, it's a whole, I, yeah.

Speaker 4: (01:29:31)
I reckon that there's a lot of challenges and there's a very fine line and it is true. Like, it's like you can't, you know, I'm looking at from their point of view and it's like, they, they can't become a parent to every kid there. They can't like expect every kid to just dump all their, all their out because that's becomes kind of dangerous and it crosses lines and stuff. So, so I recognize that there's a real challenge in trying to figure out, okay, how do you get, get these kids to go deeper and bring more of themselves, but also like not want it though, to like, you know, not have that, you know, it's challenge, it's challenging, challenging. It's challenging, you know?

Speaker 5: (01:30:09)
Yeah. And I said, yeah. And I always feel like I have to couch all these things and saying like, I, you know, of course everybody was doing their best. And, and, and it's not really a fault. It's more just like, it's not really, like, I'm trying to CA assign blame. It's more just as I get distance from this experience, I'm able to piece it together in such a way to figure out where the disconnects were. For me personally, it may have been different for other people and, you know, but, but it's important for me too, because even though I don't spend any time at all acting, I still am really fascinated with the craft of it. And it's still important for me. I feel like I still can reap the benefits of what I learned there, because I can think back to it without all of the anxiety about like, am I not enough? You know, look it through with adult eyes. It's better that way. Sure. The podcast. Yes. Funny story.

Speaker 4: (01:31:10)
This is, um, so you guys were both you're behind my year, right? Yeah. Okay. Do you remember your God squad party? Do you remember? Do you remember what it was that I was, uh, it was at our apartment. Do you remember that? Who's Val, Val and Sean and, and, uh, okay. So we decided, I think it was, I think it was my idea. It was a sort of a silly idea, but we decided for this year God's squad party, everybody must bring a can of, um, canned goods to be given to Chicago homeless. That was our way to like, turn this like drunken Fest something nice. Okay. So everyone bring a canned good. And that's your attendance to the party. Okay. So have this huge party. Everyone brings not just one bringing in handfuls of canned goods, right? So that we've got all these canned goods next morning, wake up, there are apartments filled with canned goods.

Speaker 4: (01:32:06)
We have boxes and boxes of them. And, um, so I'm like, okay, I'll call the homeless Chicago homeless authority or whatever, whoever it was, call them up and say, Hey, we had a party, we got a bunch of canned goods for you guys. Um, we want to donate them so you can come get them. And they're like, Oh, we don't come get, you got to bring them to us. And I was like, Oh, okay, well, I'll figure that one out. So we thought how we can't carry them. And we're poor. We can't even get a cab or whatever, but we'll get to it. We'll get, we'll get these Kangas in them. So a couple days later we're sitting there watching TV, Bao walks, and he's like, you guys mind if I have one of those chef Boyardee? And we're like, no, go ahead. And I'm thinking Jeff wired, he sounds pretty good. Right now we ended up eating every can good all the way down to like the only thing left was like cocktail, onions and stuff.

Speaker 1: (01:32:58)
It was basically, you had a rent party, but you, but, but instead of being honest about it,

Speaker 4: (01:33:08)
But the, it ended up, I saw your calls. You guys are the denti more bandits.

Speaker 1: (01:33:14)
[inaudible] Chicago Wrigley field. I survived theater school. It's an undeniable in production. Jen Bosworth, Ramirez, and Gina plegia are the co-hosts. This episode was produced, edited and sound mixed by Gina. [inaudible] follow us on Instagram at undeniable writers or on Twitter at undeniable, w R I T one. That's undeniable, right without the E one. Thanks.

What is I Survived Theatre School?

We went to theatre school. We survived it, but we didn't understand it. 20 years later, we're talking to our guests about their experience of going for this highly specialized type of college at the tender age of 18. Did it all go as planned? Are we still pursuing acting? Did we get cut from the program? Did we... become famous yet?