Kevin: Hello and welcome back to Subspace Radio.
We are here to talk about Lower Decks, season five,
episode six Of Gods and Angles.
Rob, welcome back.
Rob: Angles!
Get it?
So
Kevin: It took me a while.
I did not notice till today.
It's been a week since I watched this episode for the first time.
And until I sat down to write the notes for the podcast today,
I did not notice the swap there.
Rob: Yeah, I didn't notice it until, uh, I was a bit quicker, I, I noticed, when the
title came up after the opening titles, I went, oh, that's very good, very good.
Kevin: Yes, yes, yes.
Uh, lots of quick things that you could miss in this episode.
Um, we had a peace talks aboard the Cerritos between
the cubes and the spheres.
And we had Olly.
We got to meet Olly, the, uh, the granddaughter of Zeus, if you
will, from the original series episode, Who Mourns for Adonais?
Rob: And of course we had the third story of Boimler trying to,
uh, form a bond with the Doctor.
Kevin: Boimler trying to get the nickname Flip.
Bizarre, uh, yes, and all he gets for his trouble is a lightning bolt in his
butt, but he does get invited to the book
Rob: He gets invited to the book club.
Um, so yeah, that's been becoming more prominent now.
Uh, Boimler is, has been trying to actively hide the, uh, the artifact
that he has taken from the parallel universe, but it is being noticed.
Kevin: The bevel is slightly different.
Also, it's red.
Rob: I'm your flatmate, dude.
I see everything.
Uh, so yes, it's become, yeah, this is becoming more and more, his beard is
becoming more and more, and, uh, Boimler is trying to become the Riker version of
himself, um, in whatever means possible.
And he doesn't care what timeline, what, uh, parallel universe, or
whatever anomaly he is creating, he will become the cool version of himself.
Kevin: What did you make of Boimler roping Rutherford into this mission
to to kind of recreate the good parts of the alternate universe?
I was surprised that it's not just Boimler that Rutherford's like totally on board.
I guess it shouldn't surprise me, Rutherford's always totally on board for
Rob: Yes, yes, he really is.
I think it's a good way of, um, connecting Boinler within the world
again, because we, that process has, can be quite, uh, you know, isolating.
And for our final season, we want him connected.
We want him a part of the crew, a part of his team, a part of his
lower deckers that he's a part of.
So for Rutherford to just go, I'm in dude, let's do it.
Um, is, it's fantastic.
Even though Rutherford's throwing shade pretty much all the way through.
I love that, uh, process of going, all right, let's do this.
I think you're pushing it a bit too hard.
No, I've got to do this.
Um, and I'm looking forward to seeing how that evolves and how much Rutherford
embraces this process as well.
Kevin: The cube and sphere aliens were fun.
It was a, it's a bit, I don't know, it is deliberately
stereotypical Star Trek, I suppose.
You know, it's the cubes and, I don't know, am I just am I
just cynical this week, Rob?
Rob: ha ha ha ha ha ha
Kevin: Were they like not trying especially hard to come
up with an original idea here?
I mean, it was, it was in the text.
What are they doing?
Oh, they're just becoming, they could become anything.
They're just becoming a larger cube and sphere.
They have no creativity at all.
Rob: They're forming something, oh no, it's just a bigger sphere and a bigger.
They have no creative.
Yeah, that was awesome.
I think what they're in I mean, calling themselves out for them
being lazy is not, uh, Is not a way of acknowledging that you're smart.
It's just going, Oh, well, you know, you're being lazy and trying
to pull it out and say, Oh, we're actually clever by saying it's lazy.
No, it's still lazy.
Um, there could be an element of looking at, of going all those type of
conflicts because, you know, There is a potential to look at the diplomacy
within Star Trek and how that reflects on our diplomacy within our own society.
That's good sci fi.
So to, uh, strip it back down to just the most barest of issues of, I'm a, you know,
I have angles, I am smooth, we cannot connect, is just stripping everything
back, and so no matter what your problems are, it could be looked upon as going,
you know, almost ridiculous, to that point of going, that's what sci fi is meant
to do, of going, you know, we're all the same, we all may look different, but our
differences don't make us who we are.
Kevin: Yeah.
Rob: Or maybe I'm looking into it too much.
Kevin: What did you make of Olly, our demigod this week?
You, you probably haven't seen that
Rob: I haven't seen that episode, it was easy to pick up where they're going.
It's interesting because last week's episode where we had Starbase 80,
we had a prominent female character be the regular guest within that
episode, and now they've had in the next episode, another prominent female
character is, who connects with Mariner.
So that's two weeks in a row.
But there's all those I don't know if it's because we've watched it long enough or
maybe the writing's getting more obvious, I could pick things up straight away.
I picked up there going, well, whatever her charge is, that's
going to connect in some way.
The reason why she's stuffing up is because of the charge and no one's
acknowledging it, so it has to be brought up because we're seeing it
and that's going to be the, the, the.
You know, the deus ex machina at the
Kevin: Yeah, they weren't exactly hiding the fact that Olly was basically
meant to be a reflection of how far Mariner has come that, um, and like
you said, it's two episodes in a row.
I feel like we are reflecting on how far Mariner in particular has matured
and, and so Olly is the screw up who is at risk of being thrown off the
ship with every choice she makes.
And that was Mariner at the start of the series.
It was Mariner relatively recently in the series, as you like to point out.
Rob: It depends however she's written.
Kevin: Yes, but I felt like they were laying it on a bit thick that
that Olly even is, at least at the beginning, even more unlikable
and I feel like unsalvageable
Rob: I think
Kevin: the beginning of this episode.
Rob: there's, there were definitely, and it took a while for, you know, it
wasn't until right near the end, I guess, where you kind of go, oh, all right.
But no, she was a lot more annoying than Mariner and a lot more going, well,
you're not kind of helping your cause and I don't really feel that sorry for you.
Kevin: Yeah, well, she ends up in the brig at the end, which is nice
that, uh, there was a comeuppance.
Rob: And yes, very much so, and I love that moment of Mariner
going, I'm saying here, let's talk through all this stuff, okay?
You know, you've got a friend no matter what.
You've got
Kevin: I recognize this,
Rob: Yes.
Um, but yeah, there was obvious stuff there going, okay, I can pull that, and
it was, how, did you, did you pick it?
With, uh, the cubes and, uh, the spheres?
The orbs.
Kevin: That, that the young ones would be in love?
Uh, no, I guess not.
In part because, like, they, it, it wasn't all there to, you know, For
us to discover the, the other young, the young sphere being lost too was
reserved until the, the shouting started in the, in the negotiations.
And at that point it was just, um, I feel like it was past the point where
we were investigating a mystery and now we were dealing with a crisis.
Uh, and so at, at the point where they were trying to put the clues together, I
was like, nah, I don't know what it is.
And looking back, Um, it wasn't there for us to see, either.
Rob: Yeah,
Kevin: Did you assume trashed quarters, ooh, there was some sexy
Rob: Um, well, I always do.
That's just me
Kevin: ha.
Rob: Um, but yeah, it was that drop of, you know, because they tried to imply
that maybe Olly had something to do with it, but then that was a red herring, and
then the drop of the other one missing.
As soon as that going, I went, well, they're in love.
And we're going to have a Romeo and Juliet situation.
The only way that this can be resolved is, you know, it's a story trait
from, you know, that's been there since the dawn of time of going two,
two forces aren't working together.
Then there's gonna be a young love story that brings it together.
And then the added bonus of they have produced a child
who's created a new shape.
Kevin: SquAaron.
Which, I was trying to figure out, how does that, how is that half
cube, half circle, and it's not.
It's just the word square with Aaron tacked on the
Rob: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kevin: Fun, funny episode.
Uh, the, I think, for me, the most obscure reference we have gotten
yet in Lower Decks, where, um, where Rutherford confronts Boimler about his
red PADD, and says, You're studying up on the alternate universe, right?
And Boimler goes, Ho ho, alternate universe, good joke.
We got a real Ronald B.
Moore over here, working on your stand up, eh?
Ronald B.
Moore, uh, not D.
Moore, not the writer.
Rob: Ronald D.
Moore the writer.
Kevin: Ronald B.
Moore was a, a, uh, a visual effects artist, I understand,
on The Next Generation, but his name does appear on screen.
In the episode where Data goes to the holodeck to try to understand humor,
and he conjures a stand up comic to teach him how to tell jokes, the little
control panel where he's setting up the program on the holodeck says,
says, Um, the comic's name is Ronald B.
Moore, and it just blinks on screen in tiny text.
And they salvaged that name out of, uh, Star Trek history to
Rob: Who was the actual comedian they got?
Was it Joe Piscopo?
Kevin: Joe Piscopo, yeah, yeah.
Rob: Yep, yep.
The other only surviving member of one of the worst years of Saturday Night Live.
Him and, uh, Eddie Murphy, were pretty much, yeah, ones who kept the
show going when it was at its lowest point, with the Dick Emersol era.
Kevin: So yeah, Ronald B.
Moore, not named on screen until, uh, in, in dialogue until now,
he was just referred to as Mr.
Comic in the, uh, in the TNG episode.
But, um, yeah, the name was pulled off of a view screen
and brought back for us here.
Rob: I can't believe there was a Ronald B.
and a Ronald D.
Moore.
Kevin: Yeah.
Very confusing.
I guess that's why they, I guess that's why we know their middle initials because
they had to use them around the set to, to make it clear who they were talking
Rob: That's weird, because like in the UK, if you've got the same,
like, you know, um, uh, they have to change their name completely.
Like Michael Keaton, his actual name is Michael Douglas.
Kevin: Oh,
Rob: Yeah.
And David Tennant's real name is David McDonald, but there was another
actor, so he took, uh, Tennant from Neil Tennant from the Pet Shop Boys.
Kevin: Well, good
Rob: Yeah, there you go.
And Peter Davison, the fifth Doctor, his real name is Peter Moffat.
But there was a director called Peter Moffat, so he took the name Peter Davison.
And that's why his daughter Georgia Moffat is called Georgia Moffat,
and she's married to David Tennant.
Kevin: Nothing is real!
Rob: Nothing is real, Ronald B.
Moore, come and tell us a joke, please.
Kevin: Uh, I did not love that the secret powers were squidgy lightning bolts.
Those, those like squishy 3D lightning bolts did not do it for me.
Rob: Look, yeah, it was just a means to an end to get to the fact that,
you know, the doctor and Boimler now finally connect, even though she was
ripping him a new one when he started
Kevin: What did you say to me?
Yeah,
Rob: We haven't seen the doctor that much, and then, you know, in one
episode, it's great to have her back.
Why isn't she there more?
Kevin: Yeah, so we're going to talk about other non organic
life, uh, or non humanoid life.
Take it, spin it however you want, just like, uh, you would a
sphere floating in the air, Rob.
Um, uh, we've talked about understanding non humanoid life in the past.
But, uh, for me, this episode was less about the communication
challenges, like, because they could speak English very clearly.
And this, this was more about how do you deal with people who
don't have arms and legs, uh, wandering around your, your episode.
So I've gone back and, and, uh, seen where that takes me.
I've got some original series and some Next Gen.
What did you bring?
Rob: Actually, yeah, this has been a tricky one for me, but I've, um, I'm not
sure if I've mentioned them before, but I'll bring up, um, sort of like talk about
the, this, yeah, I've got a couple from the movie and, um, from Deep Space Nine.
So, yeah, we'll see how we
Kevin: Okay, very good.
I'll start with my two episodes, and this is something that I think these non
corporeal, non humanoid, uh, beings, seem to function as in Star Trek at times.
We certainly saw it last week on Starbase 80.
Often non humanoid life can just be an excuse to make some bizarre crap
happen and just kind of wave your hands at the end of the episode and
goes, Hey, you know, it's non corporeal life, who knows what they can do.
Rob: on.
Kevin: So the first one I'm thinking of is season three,
episode 22 of the original series.
So like the third to last episode that was made, um, not, not generally
considered a great one, but, uh, this is The Savage Curtain, which opens
with the Enterprise encountering President Abraham Lincoln in space.
Rob: Right.
Kevin: You may have seen a still of this at times, but it's literally President
Lincoln, large as life, sitting in a, in a throne of some kind, floating
in space in the view screen of the Enterprise, uh, and Kirk and Spock
going, well, this doesn't make sense, but I guess we should play along.
And they beam him on board the ship and give him a tour.
McCoy and Scotty are outraged that Kirk is taking this obvious
imposter at his, at face value.
Uh, and they, they, uh, they confront him in the briefing room and Kirk
goes, Of course, it's an alien!
What do you think?
I'm crazy?
Of course, it's an alien.
But what are we going to do?
Uh, the only, we're here to meet aliens.
So we got to play along a little bit just to understand until we know more.
Uh, they end up beaming down to this planet that starts, they're orbiting
this planet at the episode and it's all molten lava, but, uh, but a space of Earth
like conditions appears on the surface, just big enough for them to beam down.
And there's a great debate about whether they should beam down or not, or whether
they're beaming down to their death.
There's a fair bit of kinda stretching it out here, uh, at the end of the series.
And, um, if you go back and watch this, tell me if you feel the same,
but everyone just looks a little tired.
They know it's over and they're just like, I guess we'll ride it out.
They inevitably beam down and it turns out it's not just Abraham Lincoln.
There are some other historical figures awaiting them.
There is Genghis Khan, there is Surak of Vulcan, the, uh, the creator of the
Vulcan philosophy of, of non emotionality.
And then, uh, there is Colonel Green who is some human mass
murderer from the eugenics wars that we've never seen before or since.
There is a woman who is introduced as Zora.
She's in some really dramatic eye shadow and hair makeup.
She has no lines.
She almost throws a spear at one point and Colonel Green goes, No!
And she backs off.
And that's the most she gets to do in this episode.
And there is Kahless the Unforgettable.
There is first on screen appearance of Kahless, the Klingon
Rob: Wow.
Kevin: deity here.
Um, so yeah, all of these historical figures have been created, and half
of them are good and half of them are evil, and there is the, uh,
titular non humanoid life form.
In this case, it's a boulder that before our very eyes transforms
into a man in a boulder suit.
With, with claws and blinking lights on its head.
And, uh, he introduces himself as a representative of the Excalbians, of
which there are thousands watching as we speak, but we only ever see the one
guy because they could only afford one, they could only afford one costume.
And he says, like, we are here to understand your human
concepts of good and evil.
We do not understand them, and we have no equivalent concepts.
So we would like to pit them against each other in combat to see which is stronger.
And it's, it is a very pat sci fi concept at this point.
And the rest of the episode plays out of just these two groups making You know,
spears and rocks to throw at each other.
And, and the good, the good group tries to avoid conflict and the bad group
strings them along and betrays them.
And eventually it comes to fisticuffs.
Uh, Surak and, um, President Lincoln give their lives in the pursuit
of peace, which is, uh, which turns out to be not on the table.
But thankfully Kirk and Spock, uh, have enough fists between them
that they fight off the rest of the group, um, who, who run in fear.
And then the Exalbian at the end says, um, well, that, that accomplished nothing.
I can see no difference in the methods of these good and evil, except that evil
apparently flees when confronted directly.
And Kirk, Kirk tries to make the point that we were
fighting for different things.
But the Excalbians are having none of it, and they return them to their ship,
and that's the end of the episode.
Rob: Great.
Well, wonderful.
A lesson,
Kevin: Yeah, like I was saying at the start, the non corporeal life here is
just, you know, the ability to introduce magical occurrences that are never
quite explained, so the fact that these people from history are brought back
to life, various, you know, the ship is held in space and threatened with
its engines exploding and all of these things are done telepathically by these
Excalbians whose powers seem unfathomable.
And that seems to be the purpose of this truly alien life here is that,
uh, that they can do anything and, and they are, they seem all powerful.
And, you know, we've talked about this before when there are no rules, the
science fiction becomes less satisfying.
Rob: Very true.
Very true indeed.
You need to set the parameters so then you can play within that and
then we know everything that's going on, kind of like an impro scene.
Set everything up and then you know where to go.
Kevin: That's right.
So yeah, there is no real, um, um, circle of truth in this, uh, in this episode.
They just keep piling on the unlikely occurrences until they have enough to
justify a fistfight to end the episode.
Rob: Ah, the 60s.
They keep on giving us so much in the way of the fist.
Kevin: The Savage Curtain is, this episode is best known not for the appearance
of Abraham Lincoln, Surak, and Kahless, but it is best known for a conversation
with Uhura that happens on the bridge.
Uh, she, while, uh, Lincoln and Kirk are conversing on the bridge, she walks
up with her report for the captain and, uh, and, um, Lincoln turns to
her and says, ah, A charming Negress, and then, you know, realizes he
said the wrong thing and apologizes.
And Uhura says, that's okay, don't worry about it.
Here in the future, we've learned not to fear words.
And he says, oh, I apologize for apologizing then.
And, and that's the scene.
And it, it is very clunky and awkward, but um, but it gives Nichelle Nichols
some, some lines about something other than a communication, uh, procedure.
And it is satisfying for that.
Rob: Good on you, Nichelle.
Uh, we um, we miss ya.
Kevin: Uh, do you want to do one before I talk about my other episode?
Rob: So I was just gonna sort of like do a drive by, because we have
mentioned them in previous episodes.
But yeah, there's a little hint in, uh, The Motion Picture of the, the,
the beings that send V'ger back, were sort of like non humanoid, non
humanoid sort of like mechanical slash electrical type of beings.
But
Kevin: Yeah, they give us, every time they remake that movie, they give us
a little more of a hint just through like a visual effect of like the
machine planet that, that remade V'ger.
Rob: never, see them, but we hear little bits more of tantalizing stuff about them.
And like we talked about before, we would, I'd love to see that.
I mean, yeah, you know, do we bring them back?
Because I think it'd be cool, but then you go, oh, but the mystery of it is
Kevin: Yeah, it might be better in our imaginations, but yeah.
Rob: Then of course we jump ahead to Star Trek IV, The Voyage Home, where
of course the probe is not the actual species, the probe is from this life
form that communicates with the humpback whales, that is beyond anything that
we are aware of, technology, and so there's a fascinating insight into
this larger creature, or species, that is beyond human understanding.
Kevin: That is, uh, that's the one that we discussed last time we talked about,
like, understanding non humanoid life.
Yeah.
That is a pattern.
I feel like, uh, Nomad is the, the other one where we get a hint
of, of, uh, something beyond our understanding that has sent an artifact.
Um, maybe the Doomsday Machine is another example, although we are, we are asked to
infer that the creators of that machine are now dead by their, their own hands.
They made too perfect a weapon and it, and it, it killed them for it.
Um, but yeah, there is a, a recurring pattern of these, uh, mysterious aliens
of presumably non humanoid origins
Rob: what,
Kevin: that,
Rob: yeah.
And one last one I wanted to mention, whether, whether there is something
there, is in Star Trek Generations, is the Nexus, is the Nexus, is that some
sort of elevated form of intelligence?
Because you see, Whoever is within the Nexus gets the perfect life that
they want and so there must be some sort of being or entity connected that
can understand and yeah, for me, I'm
Kevin: That's an interesting reading of it.
I don't think that's unreasonable.
It's not the way I've watched it.
I've always kind of thought of the Nexus as a natural phenomenon and that
there's something about, you know, the radiation that messes with your, your
consciousness and that the, the, you getting what you want is actually just a
hallucination created of your own psyche.
But, uh, I, I think you could read it your way as well.
Rob: Yeah, and so like how can these figures, humanoid forms
survive within there and be, you know, brought back and forth.
For me, that's more than just it.
Like it could be just sci fi waving of hands, but I've always had this
thought in my head of going, is there a intelligence beyond, is there a
being beyond the connected with that?
That's just something I, uh, has played in my head for, for quite some time.
And I thought I'd throw it out there, and, um, And see what you thought about it.
Kevin: Uh, well, I've never thought that deeply about the Nexus.
But, uh, yeah, that's an interesting thought.
Maybe it was like, uh, it was a, uh, I don't know, a theme park
or a holiday getaway for some, uh, for some non corporeal beings
Rob: yeah.
Kevin: they wanted to go someplace nice, they went to the
Rob: Ha ha ha ha ha ha.
So, yes.
I never thought I'd think that deep about, um, Generations either, but there we are.
Kevin: Yeah.
Um, my, my second one was from The Next Generation, uh, and this is season two,
episode two, where silence has lease.
And this is another example of non humanoid life being an excuse for
a bunch of inexplicable crap to happen, uh, and then to be waved
away at the end of the episode.
So I, um, I remember liking this episode the first time I
watched it, way back in 1988.
And I think the reason I liked it is it is, It is very much just a procedural.
Rob: Yep.
Kevin: The crew, the main cast of the show is dealing with a escalating string
of inexplicable crap, like I said, and doing it so professionally, so
unflappably that it almost beggars belief.
And watching it now with a critical eye, I'm like, it is, it is too far.
Like when things are that bananas, the fact that they can just take it
in stride and then like joke about it between more serious lines of dialogue
is, is just, uh, it does not quite play.
Like these people don't seem human to me anymore in this episode.
But, um, yeah, it, it's, it's, uh, there's a hole in space.
The whole cold open is, is, uh, Um, is a character piece for Worf.
Worf and Riker are just like doing calisthenics on the, on the holodeck
and, uh, Picard on the bridge is worried about his first officer and
it's just like, let's establish that Worf is a scary dude, has nothing
to do with the rest of the episode.
But once the episode starts, they encounter a hole in space.
They send one probe into it.
And it disappears.
They send a better probe into it and it disappears.
There are many long minutes of, well, what should we do?
Well, here's what the procedures say.
Let's try this.
Let's try that.
Let's debate.
Should we shoot a photon torpedo into it?
No, Mr.
Worf, that's too, uh, that's too heavy handed.
Like there is a lot of like reasonable debate among reasonable people about what
to do about this scientific curiosity.
And then at a certain point, the hole makes it easy for them.
It, it, it It expands around them and suddenly they're inside this void.
And again, they go through the motions of trying to figure
out what happened to them.
They leave a buoy and they, they fly in a straight line away from
the buoy while it's pinging.
And then the pings get fainter and fainter.
And then guess what, Rob?
They start coming louder again, they've gone in a circle, even though
they're flying in a straight line.
And it just, it, it feels so cliche now, looking back, that it's almost
like playing Star Trek completely straight with, with completely
unbelievable things happening, but no actual drama arising out of any of it.
It is so weird, the, the tone.
I feel like this is partly the symptom of the writer's room
fracas that was happening around season two of The Next Gen.
They were, they were still finding the show.
Crusher had left, this is one of Pulaski's first episodes.
I feel like they were dealing with a new writer's room as well, who were still
trying to come to grips with the show.
And so they couldn't quite figure out, this, this feels very much
like a filler episode to me.
Rob: Yeah.
Kevin: There's a, the, a Romulan warbird decloaks and they destroy
it with the shot, with a shot of a single photon torpedo and Picard
goes, well, that was too easy.
And then, uh, And then, uh, another Galaxy class ship appears and they, they
identify as the Yamato, the Enterprise's, uh, sister ship, and they beam over to
the bridge of it, but they arrive in two different corridors, Riker and Worf,
hear each other screaming and they run towards each other and almost shoot
each other with phasers but they don't.
And then they walk through a door and they're on the bridge even though the
bridge should be somewhere else completely and they walk through one of the doors of
the bridge and they are on another bridge.
And it's just like stringing out all of these like improbable, unexplained things.
And at the end of it, it was, they were rats in a maze of this
being, Nagilum, who is just a green distorted face on the view screen
who says, I wanted to understand you.
And he wants, the last thing he needs to understand is death.
And it will only cost you half your crew.
I'm going to experiment with all the different ways of killing them.
And.
And, and then when we're done, you can be on your way.
Uh, and so, Picard, uh, and Riker decide to, uh, turn on the self destruct system.
And it's the, the first self destruct bluff in Star Trek: The Next Generation.
It counts down to the last second, of course.
And, uh, Nagilum releases them.
The end.
So, yeah.
Um, You can tell I am not, not exactly singing the praises of this episode,
but at least early on in Star Trek, it feels like these, these, um, non
corporeal or, or non humanoid life forms are often used this way as a source
of magic a source of apparent magic.
Rob: Yes, and it does seem to play through all of Star Trek of that case the, the,
the bigger we go in concept of outside of our, you know, normal tangibility,
then we, we veer on the side of magic.
Kevin: Yeah.
So yeah, there are some charming vignettes in this as we watch our professionals
professionally deal with stuff.
But, uh, yeah, you know, Dr.
Pulaski at one point goes, Why do I feel like I picked the wrong week to join this
Rob: Ha Ha ha ha ha ha
Kevin: And it felt like subtext to me.
Rob: Love it.
Kevin: And watching this and making this observation about non corporeal life in
Star Trek, I couldn't help thinking of, uh, the Prophets or the Wormhole Aliens.
And I wondered if you wanted to talk about the Prophets,
Rob: Well, there's, there's two I wanted to kind of talk about because
they're both in Deep Space Nine.
There's the Prophets, but also the Founders.
Um, and we've, and we've kind of talked about the, the Prophets before, and I
think, did we talk about them during, um, uh, how to communicate with,
Kevin: Uh, not according to my notes, no, and maybe we have, but I think
that, um, that certain way they have of communicating that was established in
The Emissary of like, flash of light, you're in a situation you've been in
before with a person you've been in before, but that person is speaking the
words of these aliens who have something, um, ephemeral to communicate to you
and they're speaking at it obliquely, so you have to spend the rest of the
episode figuring out what they meant.
Rob: And you go from one location to the next and the figure
changes to people you know.
Kevin: and it's disorienting.
And it's like, it's magical.
I think it is magical in a good way, just because it is theatrical, like, or
cinematic, this, this feeling of, I'm in a place, maybe it's an uncomfortable place.
It's an emotionally charged place, but I'm not actually there.
And I'm having to absorb this unrelated information.
It's, it's It really knocks our characters off balance, often Sisko,
uh, in a way that I do think I enjoy.
Rob: I enjoy them as well, but they do very little in the way of developing.
They're always there to appear when they're needed.
So, another deus ex machina.
But, um, but yeah, so, that's why I was kind of thinking about focusing on
the Founders, because we see, so much more about this clearly and, you know,
they describe humanoid forms as Solids.
Um, and so, we find out a little bit more and more as they go along.
Like, Odo's story is intrinsically connected to them, obviously.
And this whole process of just how brutal a culture it is and how they
just send out, you know, parts of their existence who don't know who
they are, to just learn and absorb, and then they'll be brought at some point.
And how Odo talks about his early years, he didn't know what to do.
He was just a, he was conscious in this blob form, but he didn't know how
to form shapes or how to communicate.
And so that became a part of that process and through pain, he could take shapes
and that's how he communicated, um, how
Kevin: I regret that we never, we never really got that story told on screen in a,
in a way that dealt with the wonder of that at face value, like, that allowed
the Founders to, uh, to be that explorate, that, that race that explores in that way,
feel like by the time we met Odo, the damage was done and he looked back on
his experience of being tortured into shapes as, as abuse and, and rightly so.
And then even in Picard season three, where we got some changelings and we
got to, to meet some, you know, uh, and see some glimpses of those early days
with the changelings, the Founders.
Um, still it was in the setting of a torture chamber and it was, it
was an evil thing that was done.
I would love to have, like, maybe this is a Short Trek that we can
get at some point, but I would love to see a short story of a hopeful
outcome of that means of exploration.
not on Earth, but it's somewhere out
Rob: There is a beautiful storyline when Odo, you know, kills another changeling.
So they take away his ability.
They turn him into a solid, so he faces judgement and they turn him into a solid,
which is incredibly mysterious and never solved and a little bit magic, but upon
his time as a solid, he, um, he comes across, uh, one of these lost, uh, orphan,
uh, Founders, and he purposefully goes against how he was raised, and he does,
he nurtures this creature, he talks to it about you're a changeling, you can be
anything, and helps it, and unfortunately, you know, Uh, through, through storylines
and stuff like that, Odo gets sick and the, the, and so the creature, the, the
Founder absorbs itself within to Odo to save his life and then he became,
becomes a, a, uh, uh, a changeling again, and has that beautiful moment he runs
and turns into a bird on the Promenade.
Um, but yeah, so there's little intrinsic elements there.
The one thing that always got me, and I've talked about this multiple episodes,
when another Founder shows up, they have the exact same facial structure as Odo.
Um, and Odo formed that because he is not advanced enough, and he's
never been able to get the lines.
There's another episode where they're trapped on the promenade, like, the
alternate universe where everyone's trapped, uh, on the and they die, and
their, and their culture continues, but Odo's still there, and he's been there
for what, a couple of generations, so he's
Kevin: He's refined his
Rob: Yeah, so I always thought he could do that, and these
founders are so much more advanced.
I always, every time the wonderful actress came out in complete Odo face, I went, Ah.
Kevin: Missed opportunity.
Rob: It's more like, it's not, it's through 90s eyes, and I've gone, you,
you've already touched it there, you could have got, yeah, they could have
been completely humanoid looking, and that would have worked, um, or
taken whatever shape they wanted, um, but they wanted to keep it connected
for, cause, yeah, they didn't, I, I can only assume they, you know, they
didn't value the intelligence of the audience going, no one can understand.
But there's, through the seven years, they brought little elements of the culture,
the, you know, how the Great Link and you can all share each other's thoughts.
And when Odo was disconnected from that, he, you know, the pain he felt
when he first connected with it for the first time, all that type of stuff.
Um, and how ultimately he goes back to save his people because
they're dying of a similar disease.
Um, yeah, that over the seven years, we get tantalizing Advancements of
that culture that is completely non humanoid, even though they have to
use subterfuge and stay within that.
Kevin: They do a good enough job with the Founders that it, it makes me want to see
more of what, what is a hopeful story?
What is a story of their, their culture?
What would an episode that takes place entirely within the Great Link be like?
But that is also the challenge of these non humanoid life forms
is that they are so alien, so unrecognizable, that it's hard to read.
It's hard to tell stories with them that we can empathize with, with eyes.
Rob: Prodigy with, uh, with Zero.
Kevin: Yes.
Rob: um, becoming, you know, becoming more in humanoid form and that
kind of takes away from the beauty of their non corporeal nature.
Kevin: And lest we forget, Murf, who they've had to turn into a
gummy bear in order to make us feel
Rob: Ex.
Exactly.
Murf could have been anything.
And he became the quintessential gummy bear.