[00:00:00] Dan: Hello, And welcome back to we, not me, the podcast where we explore how humans connect to get stuff done together. I'm Dan Hammond.

[00:00:13] Pia: And I am paly. 

[00:00:14] Dan: Hi there. Appear. 

[00:00:15] Pia: hello? How are you? I hear this. Um, well, you've had a busy week. There's been some activity in 

[00:00:21] Dan: Yes. Exactly. So cop 26 is here. We've had all the world leaders and I have to say after slightly dismal start, it's been really, uh, yeah, encouraging. I would say to see that, you know, in this. In this emergency that we're in, that the people did pull together. I mean, it's obviously something that requires a lot of we, not me spirit, um, to actually, um, pull together and work out how to bring all these diverse needs together.

[00:00:50] And it looks like things have got bad enough that people are really generally pulling together, which is, um, you know, at least a sign for hope, a sign of hope. 

[00:00:58] Pia: I agree. And an interesting, cause we were looking at this whole topic of diversity and, and with it, I guess, bringing your whole true self and Gretta Turnberg her, her revelation that, um, her Aspergers was in fact a superpower. Uh, and she certainly using it to, to great extent. And that's, I think that's been quite a revelation because people might've used her mannerisms and her way of being as a distraction. And she's turned that instead towards the whole focus of what she's trying to achieve. So I think that talking to Sahara today is going to be a really interesting discussion to really look at that. What's what is our superpowers within ourselves and how do we bring in a team that as a collective super power, and that I suspect takes a little bit of work. It's not straightforward. 

[00:01:56] Dan: It's a lovely way to think about it. Let's um, yes. Let's head over and hear what sea hero has to say about diversity in teams. 

[00:02:07] Pia: And welcome. Oh, Sahara is wonderful to have you on our show today. 

[00:02:12] Sahera: thank you very much. P I'm so excited to be here with you and.

[00:02:16] Pia: Oh, it's fantastic. So, um, so I guess let's kick off, tell us a little bit about yourself, um, and what, um, and what's brought you to this, this place in time.

[00:02:25] Sahera: Well, I guess, uh, you know, I've had a fairly long, uh, corporate journey, shall I say, working with T. facilitating high potential teams and helping people to be effective as leaders of teams. When, I guess I had my own epiphany in my own journey, as someone of diversity, trying to actually fit in and belong into teams. So I think this is kind of what started my journey when I left corporate and suddenly realized that I didn't have a very strong sense of identity, that I had always taken on the identity of my organization, I guess it really sent me in a bit of a spin in a self-reflective state and I started to really try to think about who I was and what was important to me.

[00:03:09] Pia: So, wow, well, that's a nice rich start. So w we, we could, we could, I don't know, quite know where to go from there, but let let's, um, let's unpick that. So, so, and it is quite often, isn't it. We, we get into the work that we're, that with that we have our, some of our own epiphanies and our challenges around, and we either choose to ignore it or we actually dive into it.

[00:03:32] So when we're looking at this topic of diversity first, before you tell us what your epiphany was, what is diversity? It's one of these love and sort of peace and mung beans, it kind of sort of confess it can roll off the tongue. So let's get really down. What exactly is it? And then how's it related to your journey?

[00:03:57] Sahera: As you say so far, uh, we think of diversity as gender differences. And with that, we need to have more women on various teams and, and leadership roles, but diversity really in itself. Is recognizing the fact that people bring very different things to the table. And it's not just around gender it's around culture, geography, experience, age, disability, sexuality there's, you know, it's so broad and we need to recognize that all these different experiences shape people and bring something to the table. So when we're talking about diversity in teams, everyone should have an equal voice, I think, and ability to contribute to those teams. And this is where I think the message gets confusing. I always use the term that diversity is a fact, but inclusion is the mindset, so yes, we have diversity, but we're not always inclusive.

[00:04:51] We don't create a sense of belonging in these teams where people feel comfortable to bring their authentic self to that team. Um, and I guess this is where my journey really, or my epiphany began. So, um, having been in corporate, as I said for such a long time, I felt very much that I had over the years, really whitewashed myself to fit in, to feel a sense of belonging and to climb up the corporate ladder, and this was something I wasn't even aware of for so many years I played a role and I played it well, I think, to get to where I did, in global roles in a, in a big multinational and, and took it further. And it's only when I left and I realized that I actually didn't quite know who I was and that I had been playing a role all this time is when I had epiphany.

[00:05:40] Dan: Um, and just say, did you ever get any overt pressure to. get in line or, you know, that, that whitewashing, was it, was it more subtle or something from within what, what was the, what was the force that, um, that led you to that?

[00:05:53] Sahera: I think that's really interesting. It's uh, I think it, it was very subtle, but it comes from that need for people to want to belong. And therefore, I think you do what it takes to fit in, to play the game the way it needs to be played and slowly and slowly, you'll give up some of your authentic self. I call it morphing. We tend to morph and, you know, I guess there's sometimes a fine line between adaptable. Being adaptive to your situation and morphing, and this is where it becomes really, I think very interesting because the longer you adapt or morph, the, you lose yourself, you're your authentic self as time goes on. And I think that very much happened to me again over the years, without even realizing that I was, that I did that, it took me to leave to recognize that.

[00:06:45] Pia: And what was the impact? When you got that epiphany?

[00:06:48] Sahera: I think, so much of myself, I didn't have my own brand. I didn't really, know I think, uh, where my strengths lie, being comfortable in my own skin. I mean, I'm in that intersectionality that I talk about being a female of cultural diversity. I'm a Muslim I'm from east Africa, I was, but Persian heritage, grown up in Australia, mind you, so at least having the language skills, but yeah, I think I denied a lot of my heritage, a lot of my background, just so that I could be accepted and fit in and it worked for quite some time. But then I guess for me, it was really starting to lose, effectiveness. I didn't feel myself. And I felt very lost when I left corporate.

[00:07:35] Pia: I've known you for many years and I. Your personality, your, that beautiful part of you has always shown through. But I find, I find this, like, when we talked about this, this is quite impactful for me, because somebody that you know is only showing you a part that they think you want to know. And that's so, so interesting. And a team dynamic, you know, we just, um, we're partially there. Not fully there. And I think that is a real challenge. And I certainly have had my own journey around my sexuality is a similar thing. When I first arrived in Australia, it was not a thing that you ever mentioned for fear of not being able to be included quite frankly. And that was 20 years ago. It's. Different situation now, but we, we compromise lots of things.

[00:08:29] So when we're evolving, what, but what's diversity looking like in teams now? I mean, we're both quite grown up, 

[00:08:37] Sahera: I think, uh, teams are starting to look more diverse. but again, I think, uh, it's early days, I think we, you know, again, it's diversity, we're recognizing diversity is important. The inclusion piece that I feel is still missing. A lot of organizations are running the unconscious bias programs, trying to educate people, but that's just the start of the journey in my view. So recognizing that we are, we have an unconscious bias, it's just a start. How are we really creating space for this belonging to happen and for people to come into the team and bring their. Experience on the one hand, we want to value diversity, but on the other hand, we seem to be it out if that makes sense. So I think there's a long way to go still, but it's, it's, we're starting to see a lot more diverse people, which is great.

[00:09:24] Dan: Yes, indeed. I mean, I must say to her, it's, it's sort of. Slightly alarming for me, hearing you speak because as the, as the sort of white male on the, uh, on the show, I must say that unconscious bias piece really hit home to me when I first got into it and studied it because I had no awareness, honestly, through my career that if I was effectively, always on the inside track in the race, you know, that there were lots of people running much longer races on the outside, in the outside lanes. And I just did not. I didn't even have that awareness at all. And it was really quite a, yeah, it was, I was taken aback when I had to really reflect on that time that there were other people running a quite different race in a harder race, actually.

[00:10:09] Sahera: say, I think that's a really important to mention because there's no good guys or bad guys in this. I think it is all around awareness and understanding and learning and going on the journey together, because, privilege is not something you know, that you 

[00:10:25] Dan: Yeah. 

[00:10:26] Sahera: when you're in it. But those that don't have it do recognize it.

[00:10:30] Pia: And that can evoke quite strong feelings of haves and have nots. And then that creates friction because. There's a lot of anger there, or there's a lot of frustration. So try to rise above that. And I think that to, to taking accountability and being aware is a completely different thing. Isn't it? That's almost going to like a third space of recognizing it, but not being emotionally charged about it.

[00:10:57] Sahera: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And I I've had women in my program say to me, women of diversity, say to me that I don't see myself reflected in any of that leadership level, you know, they don't see people like themselves so they can, so that in itself is communicating a message that it's going to be a hard road up if at all, you make it there.

[00:11:17] And we know that through the neuroscience is that we tend to gravitate towards people most like ourselves. So it inadvertently perpetuates itself. So I think awareness and understanding is fundamental in really shifting this whole discussion on inclusion.

[00:11:33] Dan: It's. Yeah, it's a great point in Syria. So if we zoom out, it might be, uh, it might seem obvious, but I think it's really worth asking this question. Why is diversity so important? Obviously fairness comes into it, but if we look about the actual performance of teams, how teams operate, um, how can they benefit from really putting some work into building diversity?

[00:11:54] Sahera: I think first is diversity so important in, um, you know, in any organization because your clients and customers are often more diversity. Then the organization itself, right? I often feel that the leadership of the senior leadership, the teams should reflect. At least part of the customer base, if you're going to re reach out to your customer. So I think it's very much about the experience, your offer, your clients. It's about being innovative and bringing new and different thoughts into your teams. it's being agile, the greater, the diversity. We know teams are more resilient and more agile because you've got so many perspectives on which to fall upon, so there's many advantages to, to being more inclusive, uh, within your teams, but it does take work. And I guess this is where I, I feel very passionate that if people need to recognize that it does take work.

[00:12:48] Dan: What sort of work is that? Um, what, what did, what did teams need to be doing to make that, to make it actually function?

[00:12:54] Sahera: I guess firstly, creating space, I, as I said, the unconscious bias training is, is a great start because it's opening the mind. But I, I, when I work with my clients, I take them on this model of judgment to value and it's a number of steps and it's about moving away and shifting away from judging difference because that's what we tend to do more naturally it's our inbuilt mechanism to judge differences, but then moving from that into awareness and understanding, and then acceptance and all that takes effort. It's not a natural thing for us to do so the more we learn about our differences and talk about the strengths people bring to the table and the value that they bring to the table, the more we can then start to engage with them in their diversity, if that makes sense and not. Not neutralize that diversity and the differences that they bring to the table. We need to value those differences because it makes us richer in our conversations and in our offerings and in our experiences,

[00:13:55] Pia: We used to have a, an exercise that we did with clients called significant objects, where they had to bring an object from home or three objects from home to reflect a bit about who they were. And part of the exercise was that you sat around a table. After it was generally done in the evening and everybody switched places so you were opposite somebody else's significant objects. And then you had to then talk about why you thought that person brought that and then you switched back and then they actually reveal. And the levels that you went to in that authentic self to really understand the struggles, the values, what was important. And I think people really bringing forth with courage in many respects, different elements of themselves was so it was just so revealing.

[00:14:49] Sahera: That's exactly what we do in this journey from judgment to value is stopped with awareness because judgment just as comes from ignorance, really, and once people start to understand and become aware of why that difference is they're actually really interested in it and that's what I learned it is. So hiding it for all those years, it's really not. I should have actually talked about it and shared it and created awareness and understanding, but it was just that again, maybe not creating safe space and I think psychological safety can sometimes. Play into this around teams, creating the safety for people to share who they are and create that awareness and understanding is a great way for teams to move forward in this space, absolutely.

[00:15:33] And then from that sort of the next stage from awareness is acceptance. And accepting that difference then really enables you to embrace it and say, wow, I think that's fantastic. I love your experience that you bring. I love either the cultural perspective or whatever it is that you bring to the table. You shift very quickly into acceptance and then appreciation, and recognize that the value and the strengths that people bring to the table. So that it kind of is, it's a very important journey for teams to think about and remembering that unconscious bias only is stage one. Actually people think they've done it because they've talked about it and that's yeah,

[00:16:09] Pia: Yeah, they got, they're wearing the diversity badge cause they've done the program

[00:16:13] Sahera: Yeah, exactly. Right.

[00:16:15] Dan: to, to, to the point we made earlier about what you made earliest to hear about what diversity is. I remember doing that, um, running that significant objects exercise, and actually thinking back the diversity was revealed. Was immense human people from Africa, but also people who lived in the states on farms and they were talking about the significant object was this gun. Their father had used to think, well, that's from a totally different world. And they have a totally different view. And so it's those sorts of exercises can really reveal all of that diversity that you you started out by talking about, not just gender or the, there were more, the more visible ones.

[00:16:53] So, um, yeah, it's, It's an exciting journey to take, but I think a, a difficult one. So how close did you say Sahara? How are we doing on diversity at the moment? How are we going? Because it feels like there's at least some movement in this direction, but how are we doing?

[00:17:09] Sahera: There's definite movement, as we said earlier, but I was looking at the world economic forum report and it said where over a hundred years, a hundred plus years, uh, away from reaching, uh, gender equity globally. Uh, so we'll never going to see it in our lifetime, and the COVID has pushed that back even further.

[00:17:28] So it's, it's so alarming. I feel for us to actually live in a place of privilege and, and still face that in, in, in our world today. So we may not have the disadvantages that some of the other countries have, but we still face it in our world. And even there's a statistics locally in Australia that says only 2% of leaders are of diverse background and that's male and female. So if you're looking at intersectionality, you're looking at females of diverse backgrounds. It's less than 2%, and yet we are 45% of the population. So there is a long way to go and that's why I feel so, so driven by this. 

[00:18:08] Dan: Quite right too, quite right, too. And, and as you say, that's not a big audience of people of diversity to look at for, for people who are moving up through the through organizations and teams today. So how can people start to hear a lately, leave our listener what could they do today, to make a move and maybe accelerate ourselves a bit, get there a bit faster than a hundred years. What's um, what could you leave us with?

[00:18:33] Sahera: With what's the wisdom, right? When I run my programs, I talk about three things. I talk about systems structures and self, and I think this is where the change lies. So systems is we really need to look at it systemically. Sometimes it's around the culture of the organization. It could be the mindset. It's how the system performs in terms of recognizing. Diversity and being inclusive of it. Um, and then I also talk about structures. So what are your policies? How do you recruit, how do you promote, how do you identify talent? is it always in the image of yourself because that's where we start to fall apart a little. So is it being open and accepting of those differences that you bring to the table?

[00:19:15] And then I talk about the self and the self for me is where I work very much with women individually or. Small coaching groups, uh, to give them the power to I, and I know it's a bit cliche, but I really feel it's about unleashing their own power and recognizing how to navigate this space, how to bring themselves forward, how to create their brand, how to have a voice at the table.

[00:19:39] I did a small focus group of younger women, uh, graduates from, um, university. Um, hoping to hear that, you know, things have really changed. Um, but, uh, I was actually very interested. They're all on graduate programs and they were facing huge hurdles, how to be visible in a room of males, how to be heard, having to work extra hard to be visible. And these are women of diversity. So it's still there and it is very systemic. And that's why I feel we almost need to tackle all those three areas, but the system, the structures and the self we need to help women programs and mentors and the rest.

[00:20:20] Pia: you know, You are in huge action. Tell us a little bit about worldwide sheroes then, cause that that's your, you know, that's really, really giving voice to diverse women around the world.

[00:20:31] Sahera: I'm really excited. It's our social enterprise that, uh, works with women of diversity and disadvantage. If women of diversity have a challenge than women of disadvantage have an even greater challenge. And so what we do is we link them with a global mentor. Someone who's traveled a similar path, who's now ready to share wisdom and help them navigate their world, and to connect with across the world.

[00:20:55] I think it's such an exciting way for us to come together and empower one another, because that's a huge, uh, part of, of this journey, I think is women helping women, not to say that men can't get involved and we're certainly going to be looking at that as well. It's a very powerful model and, um, we're already in 15 countries, so very excited to grow and scale Worldwide Sheroes

[00:21:19] Pia: And it strikes me to hear that, you know, given that the projection is a hundred years, how we can always speed those things up is everyone playing their. So if it's something that we wait for a program, if it's something that we wait as a directive, but if we actually. Lean into it and just raise our consciousness for starters.

[00:21:40] I'm reminded of Jim Collins telling us I listened to him, speak a few years back and he was rather pleased with himself. And he, he, he was, he enjoyed being the center of attention with his students. And as he wandered out to his supervisor, he said so Jim, are you more interesting or are you interested? And the focus was like, what where'd you put your effort? Is it about being interesting or is it about being interested? And I think this diversity, if we're just interested in each other, that raises the awareness. So it's the questions we ask and the care that we have for those responses. And that to me is that's a huge step. We can all do that. The cost, nothing. It's just a choice.

[00:22:28] Sahera: Yeah, absolutely, right? It's firstly having the, uh, like Dan pointed out the awareness that yes it's needed and then having the curiosity and, and recognizing how important it is to bring other voices to the table and giving them opportunity to shine and with worldwide heroes, I guess what I'm particularly excited about it. We are helping women to be leaders in their own areas. So we've got categories, we're working in education, in health, in, um, engineering, we've got stem, entrepreneurship. So it doesn't matter where you're playing, but you can as a female, uh, or, uh, you know, disadvantage and diversity, you can, you can actually strengthen your position and become an influencer. And that's really what we'd like to see.

[00:23:13] Dan: It's wonderful work. So Hera and anyone listening who'd like to contact, you can do so through the a we not me page or your details will be up there. And I really hope people will do that. So here you have been a delight to talk to. I think your personal story has been inspiring, but also as I listen to you, I realized that what came to me? Was it this really inspiring vision? We're all about teams, the role that teams can play and just bringing small groups of diverse individuals and humans together to set an example and to learn, to appreciate each other. And so you've really taken us really to the heart of we not me today. And it's been wonderful talking to you. Thank you.

[00:23:50] Sahera: Well, thank you very much. I've really enjoyed the discussion and I really urge people to make the effort. It does take effort, but it's very worthwhile effort. So we're looking forward to more diverse teams.

[00:24:01] Dan: We can't leave it on a better note than that. Thank you. So the Hera.

[00:24:03] Pia: Thank you.

[00:24:04] Dan: You know, as, as I was listening to Sahara, it kept on being reinforced to me that this is exactly what teams are all about. Peer this we, not me idea that, um, well diversity seems like some, something that we sort of bolt on onto the site, actually, it's really deeply about why we come together, why teams even exist.

[00:24:29] It's not actually just to share workload, it's actually to get, to bring diverse thinking together to bring different people together in order to work together, to get a better output. So I think this is, I feel this is a, it was a very profound interview and quite moving in places as well.

[00:24:45] Pia: I a hundred percent agree, a hundred percent agree. We share a lot in common and then our fear of having differences is what causes us to be. And then I thought that morphing is, we're doing that on a number of levels. I have worked with so many executives who, you know, secretly T well, I'm not like this at home. And they somehow then adopt the persona that they think is required. We focused on the episode, particularly around women and that cultural intersectionality, but half the race is male and half I th there's a whole different conversation about what this stereotypical white middle-class male, what they feel they have to morph into because that's their expectations. And then we miss opportunities for that diversity. I think that's, that's a whole different ball game. 

[00:25:40] Dan: Yeah. And there's diversity within that group. And I'm one of them, of course. And I have morphed in organizations. I haven't felt I've been able to be me, uh, whatever that is. Um, and I know peer, you sometimes talk about people having the, wearing the corporate armor, and it's a little bit the same thing, isn't it. And even to the point where I've heard male executives being all analytical about the person they are at work and the personnel at home and we know that's ultimately just going to be wasting a lot of energy for them. So they're not feeling they can bring themselves to the workplace.

[00:26:12] Pia: So if that's the case, then are we suppressing part of who we are? And then we get to the point of burnout and then we retire. And then I think that's the bit from today is we've all got to think about this. And we've all got to think about how do we bring our best selves to the teams that we work with. And we can't expect others to do that for us. We've got to make an effort, whether you're the leader, the team leader, or you're the team member, but you need that psych safety to have. To have that conversation. So it sort of links in with a number of these episodes that we've looked at, particularly with Jess. I'm thinking of also being clear about our purpose, the conversation that we had with Lucy Hovonec, these are all really, really key. To bring that greater we have to look at me and what I am responsible for to bring to that, but the intention. Is not for me to be better. It's for us, we to do more to collectively 

[00:27:17] Dan: absolutely. And I've offered that, you know, I've been thinking about this, I don't know if this translates globally, but the sort of Play-Doh or plasticine was the sort of colored dough that we used to play with his kids that always ended up, started out nice and bright yellows and oranges and reds. It all ends up in a brown. Blob, eventually brown mush. And I think that's in a way, what we've got to avoid in our teams is just helping people to be able to hold their space and contribute to that hole, but not just become, don't just a morph into just something sort of uniform.

[00:27:48] Pia: And to revere difference and respected and see it as something that adds real value. And then I think you're going to get people feeling much more comfortable to bring t heir whole selves to work. And then some extraordinary things might actually happen. And the way that we work may be quite different if we have that level of safety.

[00:28:10] It's been a fascinating topic And, one that I think all of us will probably reflect on to think about. What are we doing to inverted commerce, whitewash ourselves and diminish our value. 

[00:28:24] Dan: Uh, next week, yes. Who, who we talking to? Do we, how are we closing our first season?

[00:28:29] Pia: So next week we're going to build on this. so we're gonna talk to Jillian Coots who's done so much work around bringing people's consciousness to, to light really being on that journey and focusing on how the whole notion of kindness. And I know you and I are converts having read Bregman's work humankind, which I would so recommend, but this really builds it out. We're wired for connection. So why doesn't that happen? And what can we do to really maximize that connection between us too, to achieve more. So I think that's a great way to to complete season one together. I'll be a bit sad, but we are preparing for season two already.

[00:29:11] Dan: And we'll be back. We'll be back. Exactly. And I can't wait to hear from Jillian. So, um, well, that's it from this episode, for this episode, you can find our show notes and resources at Squadify dot net. Just click on the we, not me podcast link. If you've enjoyed the show, please do share the love and recommend it to your friends. We not me is produced by Mark Steadman of Origin, thank you so much for listening. It's goodbye from me.

[00:29:36] Pia: And it's goodbye from me.