Neil Patel Commentary - Transcript
Adam Brotman: Look, what really moves the needle more than anything else, more than even SEO is like word of mouth marketing. And similarly, the corollary is you can't fake that. You can't just have great SEO and a bad product or bad experience and think that you're going to have a great business even though you're a great SEO practitioner.
Andy Sack: This is AI first with Adam and Andy. The show that takes you straight to the front lines of AI innovation in business. I'm Andy Sack alongside my co host Adam Brotman. Each episode we bring you candid conversations with business leaders who are transforming their business using AI. No fluff, straight talk, real use cases and insights for you. Hey Adam, that was a great episode that we had with Neil Patel. Uh, excited to debrief and discuss with you today. I think we want to talk about three things that came up in that, that interview or that discussion with Neil. And let me just cover them and then we'll go through them one by one. The three topics are AI's impact on consumer behavior. The second was geo versus SEO and what a business leader should do. And then lastly how, how to future proof your business through AI search and marketing. I E like a little debrief on geo. So let's go and pick up right where Neil uh, left us, uh, on consumer behavior because he had a lot of data that he shared, um, and a lot of perspective. It's the first time we really have interviewed a true expert in the field. I m mean Neil's been doing SEO related activity and is really a thought leader in that space. Uh, so let's talk about AI and consumer behavior and the changes that we're experiencing ourselves. But also on Neil's um, comments and perspective. Why don't you start us off?
Adam Brotman: Okay, I, I, I agree with you. It was, you know, what's, how is AI affecting this stuff? And, and to hear him basically say that look, it didn't radically change and the way you sort of think about SEO still matters because I was wondering if he was going to say. Yeah, to be honest, uh, the biggest, putting aside the details of what he said, Andy, the biggest thing I was wondering if someone like learning by listening to him was was he going to say, oh boy, the game has majorly changed and here's how you got to think about it because with everything else going on, I wasn't, I don't know if I was mentally ready to hear that and have to get my head around it now. I thought it was interesting that during the episode he was like, no, you still gotta do your best practices on SEO. And generally speaking there hasn't been a major change and we'll get into in a second the nuances of what he said. It was good that he wasn't saying, oh yeah, there's this new thing you gotta do or else you're dead in the water. He was kind of saying the opposite, which we had a little bit of dissonance around. But I was at a high level. I was glad to hear that there wasn't some new thing that I didn't, I didn't know about that was that people needed to know about. And I was like left in the dust. He was, he was basically saying, no, you guys are paying attention to the right things. There is some shift, but it still matters that you do SEO best practices.
Andy Sack: That uh, makes me want to dig into the data because as I'm, as I asked him in the interview, you know, the, my own anecdotal personal experience of my search behavior is very different than it was before, uh, before AI, before two years ago. So I've noticed a significant shift in the way that I work and in the way that I search and in the way that I buy. And anecdotally we're hearing reports that, that for consumer brands that traffic is down 15%. His response to that was basically to sequester AI search of consumer behavior and basically say look, you know, question and answer, type traffic, yeah, that's not going to Google anymore and that's fine. But when it comes to all search behavior, when he lumped in Amazon search and social, social search engine, uh, searches within Instagram, et cetera, and I'm, I'm specifically interested in the narrow market of Google search versus Bing, which previously it was, I made, I need, basically makes me want to go dig into the data and probably makes me want to go dig into the data with Neil because I'm not discounting his expertise or, or not, um, uh, he's just more informed. But there's something that's not sitting right with the public news on consumer behavior. Plus my, on my own behavior, uh, left me with more questions than answers.
Adam Brotman: Yeah, yeah, I, I, I hear what you're
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Adam Brotman: saying. I, I, I, um, but you know, as, even as you were just talking just now, I was thinking about my behavior, which I bet is like yours. So first of all, I use Perplexity and Google and ChatGPT search. Those are kind of the three kind of search engines I use, if you will, or answer engines or search engines. And it's actually interesting When I, from a commerce perspective I still do find myself going through Google. Like it uh, like I don't, I can't, I can't think of a time where I've gone to perplexity or not, not that often perplexity or chatgpt search when I had a uh, commercial intent in mind when I was doing my search and then went to them and then ended up buying through that same session. I can think of myself using Google and I, and I'm like you, my, my behavior has been much different. The, the interesting thing he pointed out, if you actually, you want to dig into the data and I want to dig into the bottoms up user flow and when you get the answer you need from an AI overview, you're, you're done. Basically you're not going to click on anything. Whereas it used to be that same question and answer as you put it, thing would lead to traffic to sites because to get to the answer you had to fish the 10 links and get, figure out your own answer. Now you don't have to do that so that, that you and I would say that will lead to less referral traffic from Google and jives is what we're hearing from the market anecdotally and otherwise that there's about a 15% reduction in traffic coming from Google to Sites. But uh, but I think Neil was saying that when it comes to commercial intent where that traffic matters to retailers, it's not down. And then combined with the fact that AI overviews are a top of funnel so to speak way of getting improving brand awareness, in some cases that will lead to more direct traffic. He was saying the math in the end ends up being the same to sites. But the way they're getting it, they think it's down, but it's actually down only if you count just the direct from Google traffic. But if you include the fact that these AI overviews are driving direct traffic later, then overall the traffic to sites is the same. I, that was kind of my way of piecing together what he was saying in a way that makes any sense. I know it's kind of uh, uh.
Andy Sack: Yeah, it was a little convoluted. You um, wanted to, you want to try again to parse that?
Adam Brotman: Yeah. So I am seeing the brands and the products show up on AI overviews on Google, on social media, on TikTok and Instagram and whatnot, and even on like forums like Reddit and whatnot. So the more I'm seeing brands show up because of the change in consumer behavior, it's more about video, more about AI overviews that real estate is still important to ultimately, ultimately leading to traffic. But that may not happen as Google search referral traffic. And so therefore you have to break up Google search referral traffic from this kind of downstream thing that he says is more common now because of the new consumer behavior. You add the two up, uh, and the sites are getting the same amount of traffic roughly. Now I know you and I have talked to people who are saying my traffic's down and I think it's because I'm not getting as much search traffic. So they're not seeing it be made up for on the direct side. And what I heard Neil say was, well, if you get into the, out of the aggregate and get into the individuals, some people are playing the game better than others and so their traffic is fine or even up and other people's traffic is down. And so in the aggregate he's saying it's flat. But you uh, got to get into the details of like is a company playing the new game where they're like, they are showing up in AI overviews, they are showing up in um, search results on Amazon and social, they are being talked about with organic social results and just word of mouth. You can't just show up as SEO anymore. You got to show up in this broader way. And that's how I'm sort of parsing together how he, or putting together how he was saying it in the aggregate. The traffic to sites hasn't changed. Even if there's been some consumer behavior change.
Andy Sack: Let's put it this way, I think we're going to need to come back to the audience with more direction on um, consumer behavior standing as a result of AI, both with data and with bottoms up, um, consumer flows. I, you know, because I think that, I think behavior has changed her mind certainly has. And anecdotally you know, I'm reading and hearing that consumer traffic
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Andy Sack: is down 15% and that's at somewhat at odds with what Neil was saying, which was re. What he had to say was reassuring. Uh, I do think that you know, clearly things are in flux. You know, perplexity is a player in the uh, in the search space and, and now agents and operator are, are going to be a player. Um, then they're not yet but certainly consumer behavior and the way in which purchases happen is going to change. Um, so you know, I was reassured. I do think that certainly like the big platforms, particularly Amazon, which as he pointed out is really heavily transactional oriented searches and has a huge Number of searches. Um, I do think that, that you know Amazon's going to build AI, uh, right into their interface and so I suspect they probably won't see that much of an impact. But I think a lot of the long tail, smaller um, companies uh, may so TBD the next topic. Geo versus SEO. What should business leaders actually do? What'd you think about what Neil had to say? And let's, let's dive into the second topic.
Adam Brotman: So he said effectively if you want to show up in Geo, uh, AI overviews from Google, uh, whatever answer you get from Perplexity, whatever answer you get from chat GPT search, that's geo. If you want to show up in that he said just do good SEO and the same things that you do will make you show up there which.
Andy Sack: Basically is you know, content length, content velocity, like all the, the, the well learned lessons that there's a high correlation between what you do in Google and uh, showing up in ChatGPT.
Adam Brotman: That's true. And he said something else. I thought that was really like a pearl in what he said of wisdom which he said well yes, you should keep doing that but you should also remember that the more times your brand shows up anywhere it's like real estate. He said ah, like a billboard or like real estate. And he said the game is to like get as much real estate as possible. Form 3 We advise brands every day on both their AI strategy and their overall digital strategy and the combination of the two and like what comes up over and over and over with consumer brands, whether they're cpg, retail, restaurant, hospitality, doesn't matter. There's this ongoing realization that they need to be more, there needs to be more activities that give more brand awareness for them. And that's similar to what Neil said. So when he said that I was like oh that's a really good way to like think about it which is like you. And he said it may not happen like that day and people need to get over the how I can like look at my ROI of my ad spend yesterday combined with my content marketing SEO and I can immediately tell you my overall like roi. They need to take a uh, you know, they need to take a chill pill, invest in brand awareness and that real estate uh, strategy that he mentioned over the midterm. I liked how he said yes, it's the same SEO and you need to keep investing in organic social, keep investing in top of the funnel brand awareness activities. And these AI overviews are kind of a version of that. If you're showing up in An AI overview, somebody may not click on that even though they could like dig in and find the little number or whatever that refers to the source and find the link. But they're not likely to click on an AI overview as much as they would on the 10 blue links on a. On SEO. But it still matters that you're mentioned and people should keep that in mind even if they can't attribute it and, and measure it that same day or the next day.
Andy Sack: Yeah, I mean what that does is it really highlights the emphasis of really social. Right. So like word, digital word of mouth through social channels is highly relevant. Um, mentions and, and real estate to, to capture I think is what that, that, that, that expands Google search to include social mentions. The only other thing that I would say on the topic of GEO versus SEO was I thought the discussion which I think ut up and he concurred this whole heo human engine optimization and like really the. As, as things become increasingly automated and, and as agents uh, increasingly do transact work for us and increasingly do transactions for us, m do work for us, as that happens, the need to interface both with humans,
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Andy Sack: let alone search engines, goes down, in my opinion, uh, because agents are doing it for you. I do think that there's, there's going to be a desire to go into the local coffee shop and like, and how that gets, you know, what that intersection is, what happens with human behavior, um, is one that, you know, I think it's too early to call a trend, but I think that's like the other side of geo. I like this notion of hbo and I thought that was something that was worth highlighting for business leaders.
Adam Brotman: You know, I do too. But I'll say something controversial. Yeah, probably wrong as well as controversial, but I'll just say it since it's on my mind, which is that like, I think the real answer to that and I is, is more complicated. I think. I'm not saying that what you just said. I, I have this nagging feeling that says on the one hand we want more human connection because we're lacking it, and on the other hand we're lacking it because we're changing as a species and as a society. Not for the better necessarily, but you know, we're just becoming addicted to our phones, we're becoming addicted to our AI.
Andy Sack: We'Re retreating into our spaceships.
Adam Brotman: Yeah, yeah.
Andy Sack: And I think actually Adam, I think that that's totally true. I do think that this term H e o is going to be a trendy term. Um, and, and I think people are going to want to talk about the trend because they're going to want, they're gonna, they're gonna want us to be in search of human connection. It sounds good. Exactly.
Adam Brotman: I mean, I don't. I mean, it does. I mean, I, I'll tell you, I'll give you, I'll give you a real world example of it. It's near and dear to my heart. Like, Starbucks is going through this right now, right? It's not AI versus whatever, but the, you know, they're really trying to get, after getting to be more of the coffee house vibe and more connection with the barista. Uh, and Brian Nicholl, their new CEO, he was on CNBC today. They reported earnings yesterday. Like, I really like what they're doing. Like, they're, they're saying, like, look, we gotta, we gotta improve that. And that's gonna be a. That's going to improve the experience. And, and it doesn't mean we need to stop doing mobile orders, but when we do a mobile order, you should be greeted, you should be handed your cup with a smile. You should. They're writing Sharpies. They're back to writing the wrong name on the cup, so to speak. Although they can't get the name wrong on a mobile order because it's on the sticker. And they're going to keep using the sticker so they can use that as a cheat code. But the, the truth is, like, I got it. They wrote on my cup and said, have a nice day. I appreciated it. So it. It matters. And I think that's a good example of like, the balance. And, you know, so I appreciated what Brian was doing there. I don't know him. I call him Brian as if I know him. But like, like, I appreciated what their new CEO is doing because it was like, look, I think he said, we got to bring order to mobile order and we got to bring humanity to it as well. And like, yeah, so I think there's like this blend. Well, I mean, what that, what that.
Andy Sack: Touches, which is not ago, is personalization, right? So personalization start, you know, which is the promise of AI. Uh, I think is where this, where that leads.
Adam Brotman: Good point, Andy. That's a really good point that personalization is related but different than H e O or whatever term that we learned yesterday on our community call with one of our, One of our community members said, what do you think about H e O, Rick? What's H e o?
Andy Sack: It's a great term. It's true. We, as a human species, we do see human interaction And AI is automating and personalizing everything.
Adam Brotman: Yeah. And I think um, the reason that I like your personalization point because it sort of bridges the gap. I think we want that humanity as a, as long as it doesn't get in the way of our digital lives that we want. So if you can find a way to do it that like compliments the digital life, then great. Like the writing on the cups and the greeting at the door on a mobile order. Um, like the personalized email, the personalized message like you're talking about. I think it's like this notion that I'm going to like want to come into the store now more than I did before because it's, I'm seeking human connection. I hate to say it, I think there'll be a little bit of that, but I don't think it's, I hate to say, I think it's counter trend to be honest.
Andy Sack: I mean the thing. Let's, let's go back to this for a moment and then I want to conclude this and move on to the third topic. Um, the, the, the, you mentioned Starbucks and I'm just wondering. I know Starbucks is as. There's been question about mobile ordering and the, really the, how much mobile ordering overtook the business, um, and sort of made and took away from the human interaction that existed, that now exists in independent coffee shops. Um, and that balance between effectiveness and uh, efficiency for their human purchase of their coffee versus that human interaction of the third place. I'm curious to how you balance that, like how you see that playing out.
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Andy Sack: You really invented the, you know, the mobile app and you drove that automation. Do uh, you have any comment on the current state of that balance?
Adam Brotman: Yeah, yeah, I, um, I, I have mixed feelings about it because I, I feel like it's, it's the, I think that issue that you're bringing up is the embodiment of the broader issue we were just talking about. I feel like we as human beings now are very convenience driven and digital tools and platforms are feeding that. So for example, I think the mobile order phenomenon in Starbucks and their need to sort of balance it with human connection, they'll solve it through a combination of technology and processes and whatever and, and, and the people and they'll get there. There's no going backwards on it. I don't think there.
Andy Sack: Yeah, no there is not by the way.
Adam Brotman: I don't say, and I don't say that, um, I don't say that like with a smile on my face like, oh, like, like it's uh, like it's somehow. It doesn't need to be balanced. It does need to be balanced. And I think when it is balanced, it's better. It.
Andy Sack: Yeah.
Adam Brotman: And yet I think the mobile orders are up to what, over 32% of all their total.
Andy Sack: Yeah.
Adam Brotman: And, you know, my guess is it's going to become like 50% someday. It's not going to go down to 15%. And I think about like, outside of my driveway, there's all these Amazon boxes right now. Right. And I, I start to get frustrated. Then I realize, like, it was all the boxes. But then I go, yeah, it's because like, our daughter needs a, you know, a new shirt and she knows exactly what she wants and she wanted her and her mom ordered it on Amazon. And like, they don't need to go into the store. And like, they don't want to go into the store. So like, you know, we're so it's. It. There are these weird things that are going in a certain way. And yes, it is taking away from our ability to connect, but I think it's probably endemic or symptomatic or whatever of um, whatever the word is of, um, what's happening with social relationships right now and like how people meet and how they hang out or don't hang out. The AI thing is going to make it worse, unfortunately. It is going to make it worse because you're going to start using these agents to do your shop. So it's like it wasn't enough that we weren't going into the store. We're not even going to do the online shopping. That's right. That's right.
Andy Sack: We're going to send the agents out. Exactly.
Adam Brotman: Uh, yeah, but maybe, you know what, in all seriousness, like, maybe that will be the tipping point that drives us back to your H E O point. Maybe that will be the thing that drives us back to, to being more connected because we'll have, um, these agents giving us more time back. Maybe. I don't know.
Andy Sack: Maybe. Let's go to our next topic. How to future proof your business for AI search and marketing. Do something differentiated, uh, in your, in a specific. In a category and that which is differentiated will people pay attention to. I really like that comment. You know, his comment, basically my takeaway from the interview with Neil, which I want to dig into some more, is basically what's good for SEO is good for geo and, and yes, consumer behaviors change, but it hasn't really changed the basics of digital marketing. And so I think that organizations, and specifically marketing organizations do need to be advancing their use of digital tools and getting moving now on AI, uh, digital transformation. Like leaders need to get up to speed on what these tools can do and start changing their own work behavior to start having their own assessment about and, and gaining the productivity that's inherent in AI tools.
Adam Brotman: Yeah. So an example, I'll uh, let me try and take it down to ground level to connect the dots on what you just said. So for example, your point just now around look, what really moves the needle more than anything else, more than even SEO is like word of mouth, marketing and, and s. Similarly, the corollary is you, you can't fake that. You can't just have great SEO and a bad product or bad experience and think that you're going to have a great business even though you're a great SPO practitioner. He was making the point like it doesn't me m. You know, the number one thing to keep in mind is that your product or your service is great, the brand experience is great, the differentiation is there. So how does AI come into that? Well, like if you're an AI first organization, like AI is an incredible tool for effectively holding a mirror up to your company. Like if you want to ask, if you want to screenshot your competitor's website, your website, your product, you want to describe what you're doing, et cetera to AI in detail, it will do an amazing job and it's getting even better at ah, giving you back feedback, unemotional, um, feedback
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Adam Brotman: unbiased around things that you could do to improve your product or your service or your brand experience. And you know, we think this is the fallacy that I, I think that a lot of people have is they're like, why would I do that? That's like, I don't need AI for that. I can, I'm um, that's my job or my team's job or whatever. And yet, yet AI is really good at it. And so it's an example of like if you, if you're an AI first organization, it's not just about like chat bots for your customer support or you know, some automation of something like these. The best and highest use of these tools is to help you be better strategically at some of these things. So when Neil Patel says, you know, I need to be better, you should, you know, be good at SEO, which is a tactical thing or um, you know, make sure you're, you're, you're thinking about word of mouth or real estate, like ask AI can help you with that like right now. And so I, I feel like to your point, it's just to make it like tactical and tangible for our listeners. Like there are things you could be doing right now with AI 10 times a day, 20 times a day. It's instead of wondering what you would do, it's like everything, everything you're working on, you could be running through the AI and like that's our biggest mission right now, is to get leaders to realize like what a powerful tool this is. And we talk to some that get it and some that don't. And the ones that get it, like, you couldn't pry it out of their hands right now, like, they, it is so helpful to the things that like the Neil Patels of the world are advising you to do if you're not sure how to do them or how to get after them, like use AI.
Andy Sack: Awesome. Um, with that, thank you all for listening to AI first with Adam and Andy. For more resources, go to our website. You can get a, ah, ah, PDF summary of the episode with Neil as well as this episode. Uh, be sure to follow us on LinkedIn. We have lots of other resources on the site. Check it out. We uh, truly believe you can't over invest in AI Onward.
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