WEBVTT 00:00:00.240 --> 00:00:03.780 Jeff Goodes: The first thing I always talk to people about is like, who do you wanna 00:00:03.780 --> 00:00:07.620 reach and what do you wanna tell them? 00:00:08.100 --> 00:00:12.630 And what value can you give to them that will make them wanna 00:00:12.630 --> 00:00:14.700 spend a half an hour with you? 00:00:14.700 --> 00:00:18.480 So a lot of people, you know, we have the idea podcasting for a general audience. 00:00:19.154 --> 00:00:21.945 But there's, it's really important to think of the potential for 00:00:21.945 --> 00:00:24.884 podcasting as a narrow casting tool for a specific audience. 00:00:28.064 --> 00:00:30.895 Neil McPhedran: Welcome to Continuing Studies, a podcast for higher education 00:00:30.945 --> 00:00:33.015 podcasters to learn and get inspired. 00:00:33.405 --> 00:00:34.445 I'm Neil McPhedran. 00:00:35.190 --> 00:00:40.090 Founder of Podium Podcast Company and HigherEdPods.com. 00:00:41.160 --> 00:00:43.740 Jennifer-Lee: And I'm Jennifer-Lee, the founder of JPod Creations. 00:00:43.740 --> 00:00:45.450 Podcasting is broadcasting. 00:00:45.450 --> 00:00:47.280 And we want you to know you're not alone. 00:00:47.610 --> 00:00:50.340 In fact, there are many of you higher ed podcasters out there, and 00:00:50.340 --> 00:00:52.080 we can all learn from each other. 00:00:52.290 --> 00:00:54.510 Neil McPhedran: You are right Jen, as usual. 00:00:55.050 --> 00:00:58.170 And there is, continues to be lots of exciting things 00:00:58.200 --> 00:01:03.450 going on in HigherEdPods.com. 00:01:03.900 --> 00:01:07.380 I think we mentioned we have launched a Slack channel. 00:01:07.380 --> 00:01:15.090 So if you join in the top right corner of the website, you will 00:01:15.120 --> 00:01:18.990 see through there, you'll see an invitation to join the Slack channel. 00:01:19.259 --> 00:01:22.860 We're getting people joining almost every day, starting to get some 00:01:22.860 --> 00:01:23.580 good conversation going there. 00:01:24.645 --> 00:01:30.015 And if you wanna connect with fellow higher education podcasters, 00:01:30.015 --> 00:01:31.725 it's a great place to do it. 00:01:31.725 --> 00:01:34.905 So I would encourage you to go to the website and join, but also 00:01:34.905 --> 00:01:39.255 just sort of check out all the new podcasts that keep getting added. 00:01:39.285 --> 00:01:40.605 Again, like daily. 00:01:40.605 --> 00:01:43.755 We're getting near 1200 now in there. 00:01:43.785 --> 00:01:45.525 So really getting some critical mass. 00:01:46.095 --> 00:01:48.164 Jennifer-Lee: It's a party in that Slack channel. 00:01:48.375 --> 00:01:54.255 Neil McPhedran: Today, on this episode, we are chatting with 00:01:54.405 --> 00:01:56.774 Jeff Goodes, fellow Canadian. 00:01:56.774 --> 00:02:00.705 Jennifer-Lee: Another person you met in America that's Canadian. 00:02:01.214 --> 00:02:02.714 Neil McPhedran: That's right, that's correct. 00:02:02.744 --> 00:02:03.285 Yes. 00:02:03.975 --> 00:02:09.074 Jeff and I met at Podcast Movement in Vegas a few years back, a 00:02:09.074 --> 00:02:13.365 couple years back, and we've kept in contact since then. 00:02:14.100 --> 00:02:17.940 Jeff was, at the time when we met, he was actually just leaving the 00:02:17.940 --> 00:02:23.040 CBC, the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, where he was a producer 00:02:23.040 --> 00:02:29.160 and journalist for many years and worked on numerous radio programs. 00:02:30.690 --> 00:02:33.810 And more and more podcasts near the end of his career there. 00:02:34.170 --> 00:02:40.200 Notably, he was the executive producer on Dr. Brian Goldman's White 00:02:40.290 --> 00:02:44.489 Coat, Black Art, which if you're Canadian, you know what that is. 00:02:44.549 --> 00:02:49.950 For the non-Canadians out there, that is CBC Radio's National Medical Program. 00:02:50.399 --> 00:02:55.769 So it's a very popular radio show and obviously a podcast now too because CBC 00:02:55.769 --> 00:02:57.959 does such a good job with the podcasts. 00:02:58.335 --> 00:03:03.105 Jeff has brought all of that wonderful experience now into the world of 00:03:03.105 --> 00:03:04.770 podcasting where he is focused. 00:03:05.730 --> 00:03:10.830 And he actually has worked with a number of higher education institutions. 00:03:11.250 --> 00:03:15.270 Notably, he was the journalist in residence for a couple of years, 00:03:15.270 --> 00:03:21.690 just ending last year, with McMaster University's Faculty of Science. 00:03:22.020 --> 00:03:26.195 So we have a really great conversation with Jeff. 00:03:26.195 --> 00:03:31.924 And Jen, he's a fellow broadcaster, so you know, we may talk about that. 00:03:32.255 --> 00:03:33.454 Jennifer-Lee: You know that's my favorite. 00:03:33.454 --> 00:03:37.355 Not only that, I've just realized a pattern with you, because you go to these 00:03:37.355 --> 00:03:43.745 podcast conferences in America and you meet really cool people that are part 00:03:43.745 --> 00:03:47.200 of broadcasting and are podcasters. 00:03:49.274 --> 00:03:52.114 Neil McPhedran: I dunno, come talk to me if you're a former broadcaster. 00:03:52.530 --> 00:03:53.429 Jennifer-Lee: And you're Canadian. 00:03:53.640 --> 00:03:54.450 Neil McPhedran: And you're Canadian. 00:03:55.769 --> 00:03:56.190 There you go. 00:03:56.339 --> 00:03:58.589 Jennifer-Lee: I just think it's funny because we go to these conferences 00:03:58.589 --> 00:04:02.459 and there's so many amazing people from all over the world, or sometimes 00:04:02.549 --> 00:04:05.519 mainly from America, and they're so talented and there's maybe 00:04:05.579 --> 00:04:07.829 one or two or three Canadians. 00:04:08.490 --> 00:04:11.100 Somehow we all find each other still. 00:04:11.400 --> 00:04:11.760 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:04:12.030 --> 00:04:13.260 That is quite amazing. 00:04:13.470 --> 00:04:17.640 Well, what's exciting is, is speaking of conferences coming out of PodCon, 00:04:18.060 --> 00:04:24.210 we have a whole bunch of interviews lined up with folks and conversations. 00:04:24.210 --> 00:04:29.460 So over the next weeks and months, we'll be rolling through a bunch of amazing 00:04:29.490 --> 00:04:35.790 folks that attended the Higher Ed PodCon, and we are going to bring them to this 00:04:35.790 --> 00:04:41.310 podcast and talk to them about their experience in higher education podcasting. 00:04:41.909 --> 00:04:46.080 But otherwise, why don't we just get into this one with Jeff, because it's really 00:04:46.080 --> 00:04:52.230 interesting how we talk about storytelling and how good old journalism has such an 00:04:52.230 --> 00:04:57.030 important role in podcasting, especially for higher education podcasters. 00:04:57.990 --> 00:04:59.430 Jennifer-Lee: So let's learn from Jeff. 00:05:00.060 --> 00:05:00.570 Neil McPhedran: Let's do it. 00:05:03.555 --> 00:05:06.765 Jeff, it's great to have you join us here on Continuing Studies. 00:05:07.185 --> 00:05:08.205 Jeff Goodes: Thanks for having me. 00:05:08.205 --> 00:05:08.985 I'm looking forward to it. 00:05:09.375 --> 00:05:10.515 What could possibly go wrong? 00:05:10.755 --> 00:05:12.075 Neil McPhedran: What could possibly go wrong? 00:05:12.675 --> 00:05:14.955 It's nice having a fellow Canadian on today. 00:05:14.960 --> 00:05:15.320 Jennifer-Lee: Rare. 00:05:15.730 --> 00:05:16.570 It's so rare. 00:05:16.950 --> 00:05:17.655 I was like, what? 00:05:17.805 --> 00:05:18.105 Neil McPhedran: So good. 00:05:18.795 --> 00:05:19.485 So awesome. 00:05:19.965 --> 00:05:25.305 So Jeff, we met a couple of years ago, uh, at Podcast Movement 00:05:25.305 --> 00:05:27.545 Evolutions in Vegas, right? 00:05:27.545 --> 00:05:28.545 It was the biggest one, I think. 00:05:28.545 --> 00:05:28.875 Yes. 00:05:29.520 --> 00:05:34.050 You were just starting your journey from stepping away from 00:05:34.110 --> 00:05:35.940 a number of years at the CBC. 00:05:35.940 --> 00:05:40.349 So for those of you listeners, that's the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, 00:05:41.039 --> 00:05:45.510 and you had spent a bunch of time there producing some amazing radio shows such 00:05:45.510 --> 00:05:49.380 as White Coat, Black Art, which was great. 00:05:49.380 --> 00:05:53.100 And now you've made your way into this exciting world of higher 00:05:53.100 --> 00:05:55.110 education academic podcast. 00:05:55.110 --> 00:06:00.060 So maybe just give us a little bit of insight into who you've been working 00:06:00.060 --> 00:06:03.300 with, what institutions you've been working with, and some of the specific 00:06:03.300 --> 00:06:04.980 podcasts you've been working on lately. 00:06:05.550 --> 00:06:12.015 Jeff Goodes: I retired from the CBC two years ago, and I've never been busier, so. 00:06:13.545 --> 00:06:15.645 Jennifer-Lee: Welcome to not retirement. 00:06:15.705 --> 00:06:16.094 Jeff Goodes: Yeah. 00:06:16.784 --> 00:06:18.895 Is the not retirement podcast. 00:06:18.895 --> 00:06:25.034 I was very fortunate because right outta the gate I met with, I was connected 00:06:25.034 --> 00:06:29.414 with Jay Robb, who is the manager of communications, I believe, with 00:06:29.414 --> 00:06:31.735 the Faculty of Science at McMaster. 00:06:32.235 --> 00:06:36.660 And we sat down, and he was doing something that he was really 00:06:36.660 --> 00:06:40.200 passionate about, which was having a journalist in residence within 00:06:40.200 --> 00:06:41.850 the Faculty of Science of McMaster. 00:06:42.240 --> 00:06:46.950 And he had done one and Avis Favaro had, had done that the year prior 00:06:46.950 --> 00:06:49.140 from, who was with CTV for many years. 00:06:49.560 --> 00:06:53.400 And he invited me to take part in it and I was just like thrilled. 00:06:54.000 --> 00:06:57.340 So that was like the first thing right out of retirement. 00:06:57.360 --> 00:07:00.630 I basically went out for dinner and then the next day showed up for work. 00:07:00.630 --> 00:07:07.230 So that was a lot of fun and that was a kind of a learning 00:07:07.230 --> 00:07:10.110 opportunity, 'cause there's no template for this particular position. 00:07:10.110 --> 00:07:15.150 You just figure out what, what you could possibly offer to them and, and go do it. 00:07:15.150 --> 00:07:21.280 So we decided the best thing that I could do would be to do media training with 00:07:21.530 --> 00:07:26.040 some of the profs, talk to them about what they're doing and, and how best to 00:07:26.550 --> 00:07:28.560 communicate that to different audiences. 00:07:29.070 --> 00:07:31.500 And then I did a number of presentations and then we decided, 00:07:31.500 --> 00:07:34.020 well, it's one thing to talk about it, but it's another thing to do it. 00:07:34.020 --> 00:07:37.409 So let's invite some of the faculty onto a podcast. 00:07:37.780 --> 00:07:43.604 We'll create a podcast and one thing that they had been wanting to do is to 00:07:43.604 --> 00:07:47.594 demystify some of the faculty for some of their undergrads and master's students, 00:07:48.015 --> 00:07:51.104 and to demystify the academic process. 00:07:51.104 --> 00:07:56.025 Like how do you get to be a prof? How do you go from undergrad to master's to what 00:07:56.025 --> 00:07:58.424 happens in between that to PhD postdoc? 00:07:58.484 --> 00:07:59.715 It's quite a route, right? 00:08:00.195 --> 00:08:04.265 And for a lot of people who might be interested in it, it's kind of daunting. 00:08:04.985 --> 00:08:09.075 So we created this podcast called Moment Mentor Memento. 00:08:10.185 --> 00:08:15.465 So we would ask a prof to sit down and think about a moment that helped define 00:08:15.465 --> 00:08:19.724 their career, and a mentor who helped 'em get there, and a memento that they carry 00:08:19.724 --> 00:08:21.614 with them to remind them of their journey. 00:08:22.455 --> 00:08:24.974 And so that was a way of opening up the journey of how 00:08:24.974 --> 00:08:26.265 people got to where they are. 00:08:26.265 --> 00:08:31.604 And it was very interesting for me as a person to discover that almost to each and 00:08:31.604 --> 00:08:35.534 every one of them, no one had a straight line to what they were gonna do, right? 00:08:35.595 --> 00:08:40.440 It was always, like you think of people being, like a lot of young students 00:08:40.440 --> 00:08:45.300 today are, are being asked to, you know, they're quite driven, right? 00:08:45.300 --> 00:08:47.850 And they're quite focused and they're like, oh, we gotta do this. 00:08:47.850 --> 00:08:51.300 We gotta, you know, we gotta make sure that, you know, everything's 00:08:51.300 --> 00:08:52.560 gotta be in the perfect order. 00:08:52.890 --> 00:08:54.990 And reality is that that doesn't happen. 00:08:54.990 --> 00:08:59.550 So it was refreshing to bring a humanity or a, a little piece of 00:08:59.550 --> 00:09:03.060 humanity into, into something that a lot of people found quite daunting. 00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:04.080 So that was one. 00:09:04.980 --> 00:09:08.640 Jennifer-Lee: I love that you were saying that it's not a straight 00:09:08.790 --> 00:09:13.560 line, and the fact that you created a podcast to demystify the idea of a 00:09:13.560 --> 00:09:16.740 professor, because I think that's a problem too, is like they always say 00:09:16.740 --> 00:09:19.575 the old adage, those who can't do teach. 00:09:19.575 --> 00:09:22.365 So you think a lot of the times that these teachers are just 00:09:22.365 --> 00:09:25.695 people that never made it in their career and that is so not true. 00:09:25.695 --> 00:09:30.375 Some of the best professors are people that have had lengthy, amazing careers. 00:09:30.375 --> 00:09:34.275 Again, they were not a straight line, they just didn't go into teaching, that's it. 00:09:34.275 --> 00:09:37.125 They did a zigzag and they were able to gather all their knowledge. 00:09:37.890 --> 00:09:41.550 Then be in the position that they're in now to teach people. 00:09:41.550 --> 00:09:46.079 So I think having a podcast like that is a great way to open up the 00:09:46.079 --> 00:09:50.250 door for people to understand a professor relationship to student. 00:09:51.240 --> 00:09:54.449 Jeff Goodes: Well, here's another thing I learned is that with, you're hired 00:09:54.449 --> 00:09:59.295 to be a professor, you're not hired on your ability to teach or to communicate, 00:09:59.564 --> 00:10:01.365 you're hired on your research. 00:10:01.545 --> 00:10:04.545 And you're expected, like that's expected to be kind of 00:10:04.545 --> 00:10:05.835 the primary thing that you do. 00:10:05.835 --> 00:10:08.265 And then it's like, oh, by the way, you're teaching five classes. 00:10:08.535 --> 00:10:15.074 And then so these profs get thrown into this kind of big soup of 00:10:15.074 --> 00:10:19.500 teaching, and a lot of 'em have like zero experience, zero training. 00:10:20.010 --> 00:10:25.200 So I was working with the McCall MacBain Postdoc Foundation, it was 00:10:25.200 --> 00:10:26.310 another group I was working with. 00:10:26.310 --> 00:10:31.080 And they, their vision is to teach future professors how to 00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:32.340 teach and how to communicate. 00:10:32.670 --> 00:10:38.010 So we created a podcast as well for these folks as a learning tool. 00:10:38.190 --> 00:10:40.230 And we called it, This Could Change Everything. 00:10:40.950 --> 00:10:45.885 And it was a way of getting postdocs to be able to explain their research 00:10:45.945 --> 00:10:50.265 to a broader audience and to hone their communication process. 00:10:50.865 --> 00:10:54.315 Which kind of highlights one of the big things about academic podcasting 00:10:54.315 --> 00:10:57.615 is that it reaches a lot of different audiences and it has a lot of different 00:10:57.615 --> 00:10:59.315 purposes depending on what you're doing. 00:10:59.345 --> 00:11:01.665 So, so those are a few examples of what I've been doing. 00:11:01.875 --> 00:11:02.535 Neil McPhedran: I love that. 00:11:02.535 --> 00:11:05.655 I always like when we come across, I mean, I completely agree. 00:11:05.925 --> 00:11:09.345 It's amazing, and Jen and I, sort of doing this for a couple of years 00:11:09.345 --> 00:11:14.819 now, have just met so many amazing people, literally around the world, 00:11:15.240 --> 00:11:20.699 doing so many different things in academia, higher education, podcasting. 00:11:21.359 --> 00:11:28.079 And I love when we hear stories like you're telling us where it's using 00:11:28.079 --> 00:11:34.125 podcasting as part of the process or as part of the teaching, or in this 00:11:34.125 --> 00:11:35.835 case as part of the learning process. 00:11:35.985 --> 00:11:39.495 That example you just gave is like, the bonus is there's a podcast at the end, 00:11:39.525 --> 00:11:43.665 but it's the making of the podcast that's part of the process and the learning. 00:11:44.625 --> 00:11:47.655 Jeff Goodes: Absolutely, and I was working with another client who was 00:11:47.685 --> 00:11:52.035 creating a podcast as an asynchronous learning tool for her, so she can use it 00:11:52.035 --> 00:11:55.875 for her first year students and second year students as a way of, instead of 00:11:55.875 --> 00:12:00.765 sitting in a room full of 500 people, you can start by listening to the podcast, 00:12:01.125 --> 00:12:02.895 and then you've got the foundation. 00:12:02.895 --> 00:12:06.735 So instead of listening to someone at the front of the room for a long time, you can 00:12:06.735 --> 00:12:08.714 listen to your professor do an interview. 00:12:08.954 --> 00:12:10.995 It creates a human connection with them. 00:12:10.995 --> 00:12:14.204 It becomes, you know, there's an engagement happening. 00:12:14.505 --> 00:12:17.564 Then you go to the lecture, you're bringing something to it, you 00:12:17.564 --> 00:12:19.964 know, there's already a connection between the student and the teacher. 00:12:20.619 --> 00:12:21.959 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:12:21.990 --> 00:12:24.990 Jennifer-Lee: I just love, Neil, that like, and you kind of touched upon a bit, 00:12:25.439 --> 00:12:29.280 is the fact that we've been doing this for two years and every time I think we're 00:12:29.280 --> 00:12:34.319 gonna talk to somebody, it's gonna be the exact same concept, it's different. 00:12:34.319 --> 00:12:38.130 I think you're the first one, Jeff, that we've talked to that really pulls back 00:12:38.670 --> 00:12:40.740 on who the teachers are, your podcast. 00:12:40.740 --> 00:12:44.250 Because usually other podcasts that we've done have been about very 00:12:44.250 --> 00:12:47.160 certain topics like science or art. 00:12:47.310 --> 00:12:51.960 And that's something that I talk about to people and I think Neil and I do this 00:12:51.960 --> 00:12:55.680 with both companies, is that podcasts are beyond, of course, you want listens 00:12:55.680 --> 00:12:57.540 and exposure, but they're great tools. 00:12:58.015 --> 00:13:00.025 They can be used as communication tools. 00:13:00.415 --> 00:13:03.225 They can be used as business relationship building tools. 00:13:03.335 --> 00:13:06.420 I've heard a lot of people, someone he introduced me to, talked about 00:13:06.420 --> 00:13:10.830 that people are using it as a resume and a way to get jobs. 00:13:11.550 --> 00:13:17.730 I just like that you're thinking outside of just what a traditional podcast is. 00:13:18.360 --> 00:13:19.050 Jeff Goodes: Absolutely. 00:13:19.140 --> 00:13:22.260 And you know, within a university environment, you're not going 00:13:22.260 --> 00:13:25.890 to create a podcast that's gonna be on the top 1% of downloads. 00:13:26.100 --> 00:13:29.670 The first thing I always talk to people about is like, who do you wanna 00:13:29.670 --> 00:13:33.510 reach and what do you wanna tell them? 00:13:33.990 --> 00:13:38.550 And what value can you give to them that will make them wanna 00:13:38.550 --> 00:13:40.590 spend a half an hour with you? 00:13:40.590 --> 00:13:43.560 So a lot of people, you know, we have the idea of podcasting for a 00:13:43.560 --> 00:13:47.219 general audience, but there's, it's really important to think of the 00:13:47.219 --> 00:13:51.030 potential for podcasting as a narrow casting tool for specific audiences. 00:13:51.510 --> 00:13:53.969 And in academia that's very, very important. 00:13:53.969 --> 00:13:56.939 So whether you're talking to your peers or whether you're talking to a 00:13:56.939 --> 00:14:00.959 specific group of people that's very much interested in what you're doing or whether 00:14:00.959 --> 00:14:04.740 you're talking with students, or whether you're using it as a fundraising tool. 00:14:05.655 --> 00:14:08.535 You know, it can be very effective in that way to create that 00:14:08.535 --> 00:14:13.694 kind of content that begins a conversation with a potential funder. 00:14:13.905 --> 00:14:16.545 So lots of different ways you can use it. 00:14:17.084 --> 00:14:18.975 Jennifer-Lee: I love that you just said fundraising tool. 00:14:18.975 --> 00:14:20.415 That's something else that I never thought of. 00:14:20.415 --> 00:14:23.084 Like I thought about it as business relationship building or community 00:14:23.084 --> 00:14:26.444 building, but fundraising tool would be a really great way too. 00:14:27.225 --> 00:14:27.855 Jeff Goodes: Absolutely. 00:14:27.944 --> 00:14:28.125 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:14:28.125 --> 00:14:30.479 For alumni podcast. 00:14:30.479 --> 00:14:33.479 I guess we have talked to a few alumni podcasts, but we haven't 00:14:33.479 --> 00:14:35.969 really gotten into the fundraising side, so yeah, it's great. 00:14:36.479 --> 00:14:41.579 So Jeff, coming out of the CBC, sort of working in public broadcasting, 00:14:42.209 --> 00:14:48.510 was it a natural progression to move into academic podcasting? 00:14:48.510 --> 00:14:51.750 Did you find there was sort of a natural fit there? 00:14:51.780 --> 00:14:55.260 Like curious sort of how you ended up getting into this world 00:14:55.260 --> 00:14:57.959 of academic podcasting coming from a public broadcaster. 00:14:58.725 --> 00:15:01.245 Jeff Goodes: Well, when it happens, at the time it seems 00:15:01.245 --> 00:15:02.925 like it just kind of happens. 00:15:02.925 --> 00:15:05.475 But then you look back and you go, okay, yeah, there are definite 00:15:05.475 --> 00:15:06.405 reasons why this happened. 00:15:06.765 --> 00:15:10.965 So one reason was, in retrospect, the time you're just like, I 00:15:10.965 --> 00:15:11.745 don't know what's going on. 00:15:12.105 --> 00:15:16.520 But I did my master's about five years ago. 00:15:16.980 --> 00:15:17.439 Neil McPhedran: Oh, great. 00:15:17.640 --> 00:15:19.220 Jeff Goodes: Through Royal Roads. 00:15:19.970 --> 00:15:25.005 I did a masters in Learning and Technology, and I focused on podcasting 00:15:25.005 --> 00:15:26.665 as much as I could through that. 00:15:27.155 --> 00:15:32.625 My last sort of big thing was to, uh, focus on podcasting as a 00:15:32.625 --> 00:15:34.305 learning tool for medical residents. 00:15:34.815 --> 00:15:37.785 Which kind of tied into my work with White Coat, Black Art. 00:15:38.115 --> 00:15:42.855 And because what the White Coat, Black Art was often used as a tool 00:15:42.855 --> 00:15:44.535 for, for learning in universities. 00:15:44.535 --> 00:15:47.325 It was often assigned or, or just organically. 00:15:47.325 --> 00:15:49.815 People would come up to you and go, you know, I listened to your show 00:15:49.815 --> 00:15:54.345 and I was studying to be a doctor in residence and so it's fantastic. 00:15:54.345 --> 00:15:59.505 And you know, so I did my masters in that and that went really, enjoyed that. 00:15:59.955 --> 00:16:04.560 And then when I retired I decided, well, what I'm gonna do now is I'm 00:16:04.560 --> 00:16:10.620 going to work for people I like who are doing things that are interesting 00:16:11.040 --> 00:16:13.080 and might just move the needle a bit. 00:16:13.410 --> 00:16:18.030 The cool thing about working on a medical show is that it can be very technical, but 00:16:18.030 --> 00:16:20.190 it always affects you as a person, right? 00:16:20.370 --> 00:16:22.020 Because we all have the same body. 00:16:22.050 --> 00:16:24.810 We all have minds, things that are studied through medicine, so 00:16:24.810 --> 00:16:26.160 there's always a connection point. 00:16:26.280 --> 00:16:29.130 That makes medicine kind of an easy sell to a larger audience. 00:16:29.925 --> 00:16:33.795 When I was doing my masters, talking about medical students, using a lot of podcasts, 00:16:33.795 --> 00:16:35.685 they were like podcast super users. 00:16:36.165 --> 00:16:39.435 The reason is that I was like, why are they podcast super users? 00:16:39.435 --> 00:16:43.334 So I did a little digging and looked into a lot of the studies 00:16:43.334 --> 00:16:44.444 and talked to different people. 00:16:44.834 --> 00:16:50.444 And the reasons that I came up with were, you know, one, this is a great group 00:16:50.984 --> 00:16:55.755 to become podcast users 'cause their goal is to assimilate a huge amount of 00:16:55.755 --> 00:17:02.340 information quickly and in a very kind of competitive, pressurized environment. 00:17:02.820 --> 00:17:05.040 So they're learning constantly. 00:17:05.400 --> 00:17:09.990 So if they can learn while they're cooking dinner or taking the bus home 00:17:09.990 --> 00:17:14.520 or shopping or cleaning up the house by listening to a podcast, then that's great. 00:17:14.520 --> 00:17:15.840 So there's, there's that. 00:17:16.515 --> 00:17:20.685 And then the other thing that, that they really liked was the fact that 00:17:20.745 --> 00:17:22.274 you can stop and go back, right? 00:17:22.474 --> 00:17:25.365 Great thing about podcasting you can stop, go back 30 seconds. 00:17:25.365 --> 00:17:26.375 I've listened to that again. 00:17:26.765 --> 00:17:28.395 You know, it's very flexible that way. 00:17:29.115 --> 00:17:32.715 But the most important thing that they referenced like over and over 00:17:32.715 --> 00:17:35.595 again, which was a big surprise to me, was the human connection. 00:17:36.465 --> 00:17:39.435 Because being in medical school can be very isolating. 00:17:39.615 --> 00:17:40.885 It's very competitive. 00:17:40.885 --> 00:17:44.925 And you know, and they would say, like when you ask people 00:17:44.925 --> 00:17:47.295 why they love podcasts, people would love the human connection. 00:17:47.325 --> 00:17:51.315 The fact that they would form the, that kind of parasocial relationship 00:17:51.405 --> 00:17:53.595 with the host and they would love that. 00:17:53.625 --> 00:17:54.655 And that was very important to them. 00:17:54.760 --> 00:18:00.585 And that really struck me because that's being, working at the CBC, you know what 00:18:00.585 --> 00:18:06.435 kind of effect radio has on people and what kind of relationship people form 00:18:06.435 --> 00:18:08.025 with you listening to you every week. 00:18:08.565 --> 00:18:13.395 And so I would, I kind of, I understood that, but I underestimated the power. 00:18:14.535 --> 00:18:14.895 Neil McPhedran: Yeah. 00:18:14.925 --> 00:18:21.285 When we chatted with Dr. White from Surgery 101, he had some great stories 00:18:22.125 --> 00:18:27.555 just about how when he would go to medical conferences, he told us about that he 00:18:27.555 --> 00:18:29.775 went to a medical conference in Ireland. 00:18:30.195 --> 00:18:35.595 And he was speaking and found out he was in a room full of people 00:18:35.595 --> 00:18:39.105 that have listened to his podcast and thought they all knew him and 00:18:39.105 --> 00:18:40.725 were friends with him already. 00:18:41.025 --> 00:18:44.265 And so it was just such an amazing experience for him because it was 00:18:44.265 --> 00:18:49.875 like this friendly audience that was, everyone was super excited to meet him 00:18:49.875 --> 00:18:54.255 and to say hi to him because just to your point, they had made that it, you 00:18:54.255 --> 00:18:58.995 know, they'd all made in their minds this personal relationship with, with him. 00:18:58.995 --> 00:19:01.785 And I know that I do that with the podcasts that I listen to. 00:19:01.845 --> 00:19:05.415 Like if I ever saw some of these hosts on the street, I'd be like, hey, you're 00:19:05.415 --> 00:19:06.965 my best friend, kind of a thing, right? 00:19:06.965 --> 00:19:11.835 Such an intimate relationship we form with the podcast hosts. 00:19:11.955 --> 00:19:14.655 Jennifer-Lee: And then the other thing going on top of that, which I love the 00:19:14.655 --> 00:19:20.430 one-to-one communication is that, you know, there are so many experts in all 00:19:20.430 --> 00:19:25.680 these different fields, and not one person knows it all or has different 00:19:25.680 --> 00:19:27.120 takes on some of the information. 00:19:27.120 --> 00:19:31.050 So I like the fact that these podcasts are making education so accessible around the 00:19:31.050 --> 00:19:33.720 world so we can have those conversations. 00:19:33.720 --> 00:19:37.620 Like the Surgery 101 guy, like he's going to Ireland and he is talking to 00:19:37.620 --> 00:19:40.650 other people and it's like, yeah, they have people that study what he does in 00:19:40.650 --> 00:19:44.760 Ireland, but everyone has a little bit of a different take on it, which I like. 00:19:45.170 --> 00:19:48.680 Jeff Goodes: And you think about the life of a surgeon, like a surgeon is part of 00:19:48.680 --> 00:19:50.930 a team, but he works in isolation, right? 00:19:50.930 --> 00:19:54.050 He doesn't know what's going on in different cities or different 00:19:54.110 --> 00:19:56.450 continents or just different hospitals. 00:19:56.690 --> 00:20:01.190 So the ability of a podcast to bring that network of people together is 00:20:01.190 --> 00:20:03.020 super valuable for professionals. 00:20:03.530 --> 00:20:07.620 Neil McPhedran: So, Jeff, now that you've been, I guess, quote unquote full on 00:20:07.620 --> 00:20:12.390 into the podcasting world over the past couple of years, what have you been 00:20:12.390 --> 00:20:17.040 seeing, especially with your deep radio background, like what has been sort of 00:20:17.040 --> 00:20:22.170 happening in the podcast world over the past couple of years, especially with 00:20:22.170 --> 00:20:24.860 this academic higher education podcasting? 00:20:26.070 --> 00:20:30.360 Jeff Goodes: I always see that there's a great interest in podcasting. 00:20:30.750 --> 00:20:34.410 And I think, you know, I don't know what the demographics are, the average 00:20:34.410 --> 00:20:39.000 podcast listener, but I'm sure that those who are in higher education 00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:43.770 or a bachelor's or a higher degree probably listen to a lot of podcasts. 00:20:44.070 --> 00:20:46.650 'Cause they are, people talk to you about podcasts and they're like, oh, 00:20:46.650 --> 00:20:51.210 I'm a big fan of this podcast or that podcast and, and so, you know, just as 00:20:51.510 --> 00:20:56.415 listeners, I meet a lot of people who are extraordinarily into podcasting. 00:20:56.865 --> 00:21:01.215 The other thing is, it's interesting to note how quickly it has become 00:21:01.485 --> 00:21:03.585 legitimized within the academic world. 00:21:03.995 --> 00:21:07.845 And when I was doing my Masters, it was kind of like, you know, it 00:21:07.845 --> 00:21:10.209 was a little fringy to talk there. 00:21:10.304 --> 00:21:13.485 There weren't a ton of studies on podcasting and now like 00:21:13.695 --> 00:21:15.815 there are thousands, you know? 00:21:15.815 --> 00:21:17.145 Thousands and thousands of papers. 00:21:17.145 --> 00:21:21.105 So it's at McMaster University where I was working, they have a media lab. 00:21:21.105 --> 00:21:24.584 They had just installed a really nice podcast studio. 00:21:24.584 --> 00:21:28.649 So they started with, this is probably typical with a lot of universities. 00:21:28.649 --> 00:21:31.979 They started with a little booth where people would go in and talk 00:21:31.979 --> 00:21:35.669 into the microphone and you know, do their own podcast one-on-one 00:21:35.669 --> 00:21:36.899 or do a phoner or something. 00:21:36.899 --> 00:21:40.409 And then they created this nice studio with a road caster and 00:21:40.815 --> 00:21:43.995 three or four mics so that people could do interviews like that. 00:21:43.995 --> 00:21:47.085 And then they built another one it was so popular. 00:21:47.145 --> 00:21:51.105 So they had two podcast studios now at McMaster, plus the little booth thing. 00:21:51.615 --> 00:21:55.065 The spoken word is becoming such an important part of learning. 00:21:55.665 --> 00:22:01.850 And I think that when it comes to AI, the big elephant in the room breathing 00:22:01.850 --> 00:22:06.405 down our necks, I think podcasting is going to be one of those things that 00:22:06.705 --> 00:22:13.995 will allow us to authentically connect to each other in a learning environment. 00:22:14.355 --> 00:22:18.345 Only us real human beings for the moment have the ability to, to 00:22:18.435 --> 00:22:21.555 actually be, you know, tangible and be in the real world, right? 00:22:21.555 --> 00:22:25.065 So we could apply knowledge and you know, one of the great thing about 00:22:25.065 --> 00:22:28.955 podcasting is to take a study and actually apply it to the real world. 00:22:29.465 --> 00:22:29.695 Right? 00:22:29.695 --> 00:22:31.455 And to critique it properly, right? 00:22:31.455 --> 00:22:34.095 And to, you know, to, to talk about real world experiences. 00:22:34.095 --> 00:22:35.505 And that's something that AI can't do. 00:22:35.505 --> 00:22:38.925 And so we need to value that and understand that. 00:22:38.955 --> 00:22:40.965 We're all hyped and excited about AI. 00:22:41.265 --> 00:22:45.090 But I think in that hype, we have to be extraordinarily careful 00:22:45.179 --> 00:22:46.409 as to the limitations of it. 00:22:47.010 --> 00:22:50.370 And I was, just did Aberdeen at a science communication 00:22:50.370 --> 00:22:52.590 conference and I did a fun thing. 00:22:52.979 --> 00:22:56.370 'Cause, you know, I'm not a scientist, I can't present papers or whatever, but I, 00:22:56.399 --> 00:23:02.729 they had this performance element and I did a live debate with CahtGPT, podcasting 00:23:02.729 --> 00:23:05.340 versus AI, which was kind of fun. 00:23:05.370 --> 00:23:14.685 The point was that we have to we value the authenticity of what we do as 00:23:14.715 --> 00:23:20.475 communicators and what we do as academics, and we can't sell it down the road to 00:23:20.475 --> 00:23:25.004 AI and not appreciate what it is that we bring to the conversation as human beings. 00:23:25.770 --> 00:23:26.850 Neil McPhedran: That's a really good point. 00:23:26.910 --> 00:23:29.370 I like that idea too, of the live demo there. 00:23:29.370 --> 00:23:29.879 That's great. 00:23:29.910 --> 00:23:30.840 Jeff Goodes: It was pretty funny. 00:23:31.170 --> 00:23:31.530 Neil McPhedran: That's good. 00:23:33.510 --> 00:23:39.990 When we talked previously, you mentioned how you think podcasting is a great 00:23:39.990 --> 00:23:42.720 medium to make research more accessible. 00:23:42.720 --> 00:23:45.270 I think you kind of talked a little bit about it previously in our 00:23:45.270 --> 00:23:48.120 conversation here, but maybe can you unpack that a little bit for us? 00:23:48.120 --> 00:23:52.379 Like what is it you think about podcasting that does a good job 00:23:52.379 --> 00:23:54.420 of making research accessible? 00:23:54.975 --> 00:23:59.774 Jeff Goodes: The real benefit of podcasting is kind of 00:23:59.774 --> 00:24:01.125 tied to its limitation. 00:24:01.875 --> 00:24:08.804 Because if you have a study, there's no way you can really accurately convey 00:24:09.284 --> 00:24:11.745 the content of a study in a podcast. 00:24:12.135 --> 00:24:15.390 You can't spew a huge pile of numbers of people. 00:24:15.420 --> 00:24:16.770 It just doesn't stick, right? 00:24:17.040 --> 00:24:20.730 You can do like maybe one number, you're talking to academics, maybe two. 00:24:21.270 --> 00:24:25.800 But after that, people just kind of get lost in the numbers and nothing sticks. 00:24:25.830 --> 00:24:32.700 So what you can do though, is you can interpret, you can critique, you 00:24:32.700 --> 00:24:37.800 can apply what's in the study and you can, you know, apply it to the 00:24:37.800 --> 00:24:39.780 real world and you can analyze it. 00:24:39.780 --> 00:24:44.310 So you can add that sort of deeper layer of conversation that you don't 00:24:44.310 --> 00:24:46.110 get in just presenting the study. 00:24:46.110 --> 00:24:49.830 So the study becomes the basis for a conversation that brings in all sorts 00:24:49.830 --> 00:24:53.610 of different things from different areas as academics or as professionals. 00:24:54.000 --> 00:24:58.080 And then, you know, I always say, make sure you have vigorous show notes so that 00:24:58.139 --> 00:25:01.200 if you're talking about a study, make sure you've got the link to the study and the 00:25:01.200 --> 00:25:02.909 link to this theory, the link to that. 00:25:03.060 --> 00:25:06.780 You can back up everything that you're saying in the podcast with facts. 00:25:07.050 --> 00:25:10.500 But it's that way of going deeper and you know, really having that 00:25:10.500 --> 00:25:11.790 three dimensional conversation. 00:25:13.290 --> 00:25:13.919 Neil McPhedran: That's great. 00:25:13.980 --> 00:25:20.820 So, and then your time in producing radio stories and radio shows, what did 00:25:20.820 --> 00:25:22.919 you bring from that into podcasting? 00:25:22.950 --> 00:25:25.335 'Cause I think there's a real crossover there. 00:25:25.365 --> 00:25:29.475 All, all that you learned and applied from creating stories in radio 00:25:29.475 --> 00:25:32.025 must be applicable to podcasting. 00:25:32.145 --> 00:25:35.535 There's a lot of rigor I think on the radio side that's quite applicable and 00:25:35.535 --> 00:25:38.895 I think, like for me, I come from a digital marketing background, so I didn't 00:25:38.895 --> 00:25:43.785 bring all that skillset and knowledge to the table coming to podcasting, but you 00:25:43.785 --> 00:25:45.764 are coming at it from producing radio. 00:25:45.945 --> 00:25:49.095 Sort of curious what you've brought into the world of podcasting. 00:25:49.695 --> 00:25:52.965 Jeff Goodes: I think, you know, the most important, and I kind of alluded to this 00:25:52.965 --> 00:25:58.035 earlier, is the idea of the importance of human connection in order to make 00:25:58.035 --> 00:26:00.485 sure that you are reaching your audience. 00:26:00.515 --> 00:26:02.855 In order to make sure you have an effective product 00:26:02.975 --> 00:26:04.505 that's going to engage people. 00:26:04.835 --> 00:26:09.155 I hosted the weekend morning show for 10 years in Ontario. 00:26:09.155 --> 00:26:10.085 It's called Fresh Air. 00:26:10.445 --> 00:26:13.355 You guys have North by Northwest out in BC. 00:26:13.595 --> 00:26:14.675 Neil McPhedran: When were you doing that? 00:26:14.745 --> 00:26:16.235 What years were you doing that show? 00:26:16.235 --> 00:26:17.285 I was living in Toronto then. 00:26:17.710 --> 00:26:20.620 Jeff Goodes: 1998 to 2008. 00:26:21.010 --> 00:26:21.520 Neil McPhedran: There you go. 00:26:22.170 --> 00:26:23.320 I would've been, would've been listening to you. 00:26:23.350 --> 00:26:23.555 There you go. 00:26:23.560 --> 00:26:25.930 Jeff Goodes: You would've been lying in bed going, I can't believe I 00:26:25.930 --> 00:26:27.490 forgot to turn the clock radio off. 00:26:27.880 --> 00:26:28.720 It's Saturday. 00:26:30.070 --> 00:26:32.560 But no, we had a big audience because people would, you know, 00:26:32.560 --> 00:26:34.640 Saturday morning you actually have time to listen to the radio. 00:26:34.640 --> 00:26:38.440 But one thing that we would do every late August, beginning of 00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:42.970 September, is we would talk to people dropping their kids off at school, 00:26:42.970 --> 00:26:44.290 at university for the first time. 00:26:45.044 --> 00:26:48.615 And it was such a powerful emotional event for people, right? 00:26:48.615 --> 00:26:53.715 So they would call us up and they would be driving down the 401 weeping. 00:26:56.235 --> 00:26:59.955 Like so happy, the new chapter of life, but so sad because it's 00:26:59.955 --> 00:27:01.665 such a moment of mixed emotions. 00:27:02.084 --> 00:27:05.024 So we had this, we had created this community where people would just 00:27:05.024 --> 00:27:08.955 feel free to call us up and share what's going on in their lives, right? 00:27:08.955 --> 00:27:10.085 So there was trust. 00:27:10.435 --> 00:27:12.725 And there was a community. 00:27:13.065 --> 00:27:17.445 And you know, to be able to create that through audio is pretty amazing. 00:27:17.805 --> 00:27:19.875 So that's important to understand the power of that. 00:27:20.295 --> 00:27:25.485 So even when we went on to things like White Coat, Black Art and Dr. 00:27:25.665 --> 00:27:30.435 Brian Goldman, the host, he would always say, and I've stolen this 00:27:30.435 --> 00:27:34.095 from him, but he would always say, when we were pitching stories, he 00:27:34.095 --> 00:27:36.495 would go, okay, what's the heartbeat? 00:27:36.915 --> 00:27:38.205 What's the heartbeat in this story? 00:27:38.595 --> 00:27:42.285 Because you would, he said every story has to have a head and a heartbeat. 00:27:42.855 --> 00:27:46.785 So we would make sure it has the intellectual vigor to be a story 00:27:47.085 --> 00:27:50.565 and it's got the meat and it, you know, applies to people's lives 00:27:50.565 --> 00:27:52.035 in order to make it relevant. 00:27:52.575 --> 00:27:54.555 But what's gonna bring people in. 00:27:54.585 --> 00:27:58.395 Who's, what's the first person story that, that's gonna make people not 00:27:58.395 --> 00:28:01.665 turn off the radio on a Saturday afternoon when they're sitting in 00:28:01.665 --> 00:28:03.435 the parking lot of a supermarket? 00:28:04.245 --> 00:28:05.835 So we always made sure that we had that. 00:28:06.480 --> 00:28:08.790 Jennifer-Lee: I love that, and that's something that I always tell 00:28:08.790 --> 00:28:11.790 people that radio's so good at, and you should always bring it to 00:28:11.790 --> 00:28:13.410 podcasting, is that community feel. 00:28:13.800 --> 00:28:18.840 Because I ended up getting sent on vacation relief one time, like I was 00:28:18.840 --> 00:28:23.790 already up north, but then they had a little station like five hours up north 00:28:23.790 --> 00:28:28.615 that was owned by Astral at the time, and the town I was living in was 20,000. 00:28:29.160 --> 00:28:32.820 So we didn't do this, but the town I went up to was like 5,000. 00:28:33.210 --> 00:28:36.540 And I remember I had to fill in for the one guy that worked at the 00:28:36.540 --> 00:28:38.610 station, gave him vacation relief. 00:28:38.700 --> 00:28:44.910 And we did a segment every Sunday that was like a yard sale and 00:28:44.910 --> 00:28:49.950 you would literally had to be like, Flo has a tractor for sale. 00:28:49.950 --> 00:28:51.330 And then people like ate it up. 00:28:51.330 --> 00:28:54.000 And I was like, this is the best thing. 00:28:54.000 --> 00:28:56.280 Like people don't believe that I did this, but it's real. 00:28:56.340 --> 00:28:58.080 And it was like a hit show. 00:28:58.620 --> 00:28:59.280 Jeff Goodes: Oh yeah. 00:28:59.280 --> 00:29:02.460 And I bet you would've a chat with Flo about how her day was going 00:29:02.460 --> 00:29:05.310 and, you know, where'd the tractor come from and what'd you use it for? 00:29:05.310 --> 00:29:06.240 And blah, blah, blah. 00:29:06.300 --> 00:29:08.070 Jennifer-Lee: Well, and then the funny thing is, like I said, when 00:29:08.070 --> 00:29:11.970 you're up in that town, because they feel like they know you, similar to 00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:15.180 podcasting, but on a smaller scale, they knew I was new in town, they 00:29:15.180 --> 00:29:16.470 knew I was only there for a few weeks. 00:29:16.470 --> 00:29:18.510 I didn't say this, but they just knew it. 00:29:18.510 --> 00:29:25.740 I got offered, offered sandwiches, like to go out for dinner, like, you know, it's a 00:29:25.740 --> 00:29:30.210 cool thing with small town radio, which is something I totally pull into podcasting. 00:29:30.600 --> 00:29:34.470 But the other thing I'd like to talk to you about from radio is, 00:29:34.830 --> 00:29:38.325 I think, I'd like your thought on this, but I think broadcasters do it 00:29:38.325 --> 00:29:41.805 well and some podcasters do it, is really the one-to-one communication. 00:29:41.805 --> 00:29:44.325 I remember in radio school, they always tell us like, how 00:29:44.325 --> 00:29:45.375 many people are you talking to? 00:29:45.375 --> 00:29:48.135 And everybody's like millions of people on the radio and they 00:29:48.135 --> 00:29:50.085 said that could be the case. 00:29:50.085 --> 00:29:52.245 But you're actually talking to one person. 00:29:52.245 --> 00:29:55.305 And I feel like sometimes a lot of people in podcasting don't necessarily 00:29:55.725 --> 00:29:57.735 direct their show to the one person. 00:29:57.735 --> 00:30:00.795 And, and it goes back to that connection you were talking about. 00:30:00.795 --> 00:30:03.495 It's like if I'm driving in my car and I'm listening to your podcast, 00:30:03.495 --> 00:30:06.780 or I'm walking the dog or on the bus, I want you to be talking to me. 00:30:07.199 --> 00:30:08.969 I don't want you to be talking to everybody. 00:30:09.719 --> 00:30:10.980 Jeff Goodes: That's, that's a very good point. 00:30:10.980 --> 00:30:15.060 And I always make sure that if somebody is recording something, 00:30:15.510 --> 00:30:20.699 they're talking to someone and not just like in radio, they say, imagine 00:30:20.699 --> 00:30:22.209 a 35 year old woman, blah, blah. 00:30:22.209 --> 00:30:22.580 No. 00:30:22.899 --> 00:30:28.050 It's like, no, you need somebody like three feet away from you that 00:30:28.050 --> 00:30:32.699 you're talking to because it's very, it's so hard to go into a booth 00:30:33.225 --> 00:30:35.925 and just extemporaneously talk. 00:30:35.925 --> 00:30:38.475 And you can't expect people to have the craft to be able to do 00:30:38.475 --> 00:30:39.585 that 'cause it takes a long time. 00:30:40.335 --> 00:30:45.945 So you gotta sit down with them and just encourage and, and show 00:30:45.945 --> 00:30:47.415 them how to have a conversation. 00:30:47.925 --> 00:30:51.165 Especially when you're dealing with people who, who are just starting out. 00:30:51.165 --> 00:30:52.455 That's super, super important. 00:30:53.115 --> 00:30:54.135 Jennifer-Lee: Well, it takes a long time. 00:30:54.135 --> 00:30:57.584 I'm like, it took me 20 years to get here because if you listen to my first 00:30:57.824 --> 00:31:00.024 few radio breaks, oh they were rough. 00:31:00.465 --> 00:31:00.764 Jeff Goodes: Yeah. 00:31:00.824 --> 00:31:02.235 Mine, I was terrible as well. 00:31:02.610 --> 00:31:06.780 Neil McPhedran: So the big hairy thing in the room right now is video. 00:31:06.870 --> 00:31:10.980 Every time you turn around in podcasting, it's video, video, video, video, video. 00:31:10.980 --> 00:31:14.450 And Spotify's saying you have to be on video, and you know, so on and so forth. 00:31:14.450 --> 00:31:16.530 I've had like four video conversations today. 00:31:17.040 --> 00:31:18.210 What do you think about that, Jeff? 00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:19.230 What's your thoughts there? 00:31:19.230 --> 00:31:21.260 How does video change things or does it? 00:31:21.620 --> 00:31:22.950 Jeff Goodes: Video does change things. 00:31:23.210 --> 00:31:27.690 I think video is important and I think that, you know, we, in many 00:31:27.690 --> 00:31:29.520 instances it certainly helps. 00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.060 I think it's very important to use video, especially when you're 00:31:33.060 --> 00:31:39.060 doing social, to get your message out on TikTok and whatever, like 00:31:39.060 --> 00:31:40.709 that's, that's super important. 00:31:41.580 --> 00:31:48.000 I think that it really helps with YouTube and that YouTube has become perhaps the 00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:52.500 primary place where people find podcasts. 00:31:52.560 --> 00:31:54.929 Like a lot of videos is actually quite substantial. 00:31:55.459 --> 00:31:57.139 So yeah, video is good. 00:31:57.209 --> 00:31:59.159 At the same time, I'm torn, right? 00:31:59.159 --> 00:32:05.630 Because you have to make a decision what you want the podcast to do, right? 00:32:05.810 --> 00:32:10.410 If you want the podcast to reach a small audience of professionals who happen 00:32:10.410 --> 00:32:13.740 to be in the same business, and it's almost like a community of practice, 00:32:13.740 --> 00:32:17.580 or it's like, you know, sharing skills or whatever, you don't need video. 00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.950 I don't think you'd be in video for that. 00:32:20.610 --> 00:32:26.100 If you're looking for a larger audience, then I think video becomes more important. 00:32:26.580 --> 00:32:33.210 It's a challenge for me to recommend video because it can really change 00:32:33.210 --> 00:32:37.020 the performance and especially if you're not used to doing podcasting 00:32:37.350 --> 00:32:38.580 and you're just learning, right? 00:32:38.580 --> 00:32:44.040 And podcasting is a craft and a skill and, you know, it's much easier I think to sit 00:32:44.040 --> 00:32:49.800 down in front of a mic and to hone your craft that way, and then, you know, ramp 00:32:49.800 --> 00:32:52.470 up to video, maybe on the second season. 00:32:52.530 --> 00:32:56.370 It can really affect the performance for some people, because having two 00:32:56.550 --> 00:33:01.500 cameras and lights in a room, it takes away your attention from the 00:33:01.500 --> 00:33:04.290 other person, from the matter at hand, and it can affect the content. 00:33:04.830 --> 00:33:11.010 So one thing I might recommend is that you can do a audio podcast, but create 00:33:11.010 --> 00:33:15.360 separate video clips for, for social, you know, like maybe that's the way to start. 00:33:15.360 --> 00:33:21.120 And then next we kind of ramp up to or scaffold up to, to a video podcast. 00:33:21.540 --> 00:33:22.920 Jennifer-Lee: I agree with you, Jeff. 00:33:22.950 --> 00:33:25.920 It's important for search and there's other ways to get around it, like 00:33:26.010 --> 00:33:27.780 putting placards up and stuff like that. 00:33:28.170 --> 00:33:31.890 I know, and I've seen it, huge podcasts with big followings that have just 00:33:31.890 --> 00:33:34.920 done a placard up for a long time until they even switch to video. 00:33:35.190 --> 00:33:39.330 I think get good with audio and telling your story first. 00:33:39.330 --> 00:33:44.460 If you're able to do it sideways, upside down, and make people engaged by your 00:33:44.460 --> 00:33:47.010 audio, you'll be good then to go to video. 00:33:47.490 --> 00:33:49.470 Jeff Goodes: And to not get too much into the weeds. 00:33:49.470 --> 00:33:53.590 But one great thing about audio is that you can edit the hell out of it. 00:33:53.870 --> 00:33:58.530 Like you can really get rid of the ums and the ahs and the pauses. 00:33:58.590 --> 00:34:02.130 I was working with a video producer on a podcast last year. 00:34:02.490 --> 00:34:06.150 And she said, oh, just edit what you usually do and then send it 00:34:06.150 --> 00:34:07.470 to me and I'll just match it up. 00:34:07.980 --> 00:34:13.800 And I sent it to her and she was like, oh my God, I had no idea that this 00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:15.930 is how you edited an audio podcast. 00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:19.050 'Cause there's like, you know, there's like a hundred edits or whatever, right? 00:34:19.110 --> 00:34:21.810 You just edit out little bits here and then, you know, and 00:34:21.810 --> 00:34:23.610 in video you can't do that. 00:34:23.985 --> 00:34:24.450 You have to, 00:34:24.450 --> 00:34:25.155 Neil McPhedran: All the jump cuts. 00:34:25.155 --> 00:34:25.395 Yeah. 00:34:25.485 --> 00:34:27.315 Jeff Goodes: You can't have all the jump cuts, so you have 00:34:27.315 --> 00:34:28.335 to be much more judicious. 00:34:28.695 --> 00:34:32.385 Jennifer-Lee: Well, and that's why I like podcasting, because there's no excuse. 00:34:32.385 --> 00:34:34.815 There's no excuse to have a good sounding podcast because there's 00:34:34.815 --> 00:34:36.075 always tools and you can edit. 00:34:36.555 --> 00:34:41.445 But I do love that I had radio background first, because you learn 00:34:41.445 --> 00:34:44.895 a lot about how to be more concise. 00:34:44.925 --> 00:34:48.645 You learn about a structure, you learn what happens when you fail live. 00:34:49.154 --> 00:34:53.775 Which, you know, every radio broadcaster has done a billion times when you sucked 00:34:53.775 --> 00:34:58.245 it a bit, and I think it really prepares you then for podcasting and then you're 00:34:58.245 --> 00:35:01.965 like, it's such a luxury to be edited afterwards you're like, oh, no pressure. 00:35:03.705 --> 00:35:04.995 Neil McPhedran: I couldn't imagine going live. 00:35:05.444 --> 00:35:09.905 I'm just getting my podcast legs out from underneath me and being able to be edited. 00:35:09.905 --> 00:35:14.040 So, well, Jeff, thank you so much for joining us today. 00:35:14.040 --> 00:35:17.130 It's been a great conversation, some really good insights. 00:35:17.160 --> 00:35:21.540 I, I like hearing people's journeys, how they got into this corner of 00:35:21.540 --> 00:35:25.110 podcasting, not just how you got into podcasting, but this higher education 00:35:25.110 --> 00:35:26.970 academic corner of podcasting. 00:35:27.060 --> 00:35:29.970 It was great you were able to share with us today and some good insights too. 00:35:29.970 --> 00:35:30.445 So thank you so much. 00:35:31.290 --> 00:35:31.680 Jeff Goodes: Thank you. 00:35:31.680 --> 00:35:32.460 I really enjoyed it. 00:35:33.930 --> 00:35:36.210 Neil McPhedran: What a great conversation we just had with Jeff. 00:35:36.210 --> 00:35:37.410 I really enjoyed that. 00:35:37.529 --> 00:35:40.649 Jennifer-Lee: You always find the great people to talk to at conferences. 00:35:40.680 --> 00:35:44.520 Jeff is another one and learned a lot from him. 00:35:44.520 --> 00:35:49.169 And again, just like anytime, even if it's not from a direct post-secondary 00:35:49.169 --> 00:35:51.390 institution, we always learn so much. 00:35:51.390 --> 00:35:54.000 Yes, he has ties or schools and stuff like that, but even his 00:35:54.000 --> 00:35:57.735 work on White Coat, Black Art. 00:35:57.735 --> 00:36:03.045 It's like making learning very accessible to many people and really at 00:36:03.045 --> 00:36:05.775 the end of the day, that's what we're trying to do with higher ed podcasts. 00:36:06.465 --> 00:36:07.125 Neil McPhedran: Exactly. 00:36:07.455 --> 00:36:15.225 It was also really good to get his take on and just insights into the 00:36:15.225 --> 00:36:17.240 role of podcasting in academia. 00:36:18.149 --> 00:36:22.980 Interesting, I mean, he, he's had academia through his career, but he's 00:36:22.980 --> 00:36:27.829 not coming from a core academic career. 00:36:27.949 --> 00:36:33.629 Just interesting how he has come to this conclusion that we, you 00:36:33.629 --> 00:36:36.210 know, that we have, and everyone else listening here, this important 00:36:36.210 --> 00:36:38.100 role of podcasting in academia. 00:36:38.100 --> 00:36:42.839 It's just good to hear him talk about that and making research accessible. 00:36:42.899 --> 00:36:46.345 Another great episode, Jen, why don't you read us out? 00:36:46.890 --> 00:36:50.040 Jennifer-Lee: Thank you for tuning into the Continuing Studies podcast, the 00:36:50.040 --> 00:36:52.109 podcast for higher education podcasters. 00:36:52.379 --> 00:36:55.379 We hope you found this episode informative and inspiring. 00:36:55.379 --> 00:36:58.740 If you enjoyed the show, we encourage you to follow and subscribe to our 00:36:58.740 --> 00:37:02.339 podcast on your preferred platform, so you'll never miss an episode. 00:37:02.339 --> 00:37:06.149 But if you found this episode particularly valuable, please consider 00:37:06.149 --> 00:37:09.270 sharing it with your friends and colleagues who also might be interested 00:37:09.270 --> 00:37:10.820 in higher education podcasts. 00:37:11.154 --> 00:37:14.725 We also invite you to join your peers on HigherEdPods.com, where you 00:37:14.725 --> 00:37:18.565 can connect with other podcasters in the higher education space and 00:37:18.565 --> 00:37:19.915 learn from others in the field. 00:37:20.335 --> 00:37:22.345 Thank you for being part of our community. 00:37:22.345 --> 00:37:25.884 We look forward to continuing to bring you valuable insights and conversations 00:37:26.154 --> 00:37:27.984 around a higher education podcast. 00:37:27.984 --> 00:37:29.245 See you in the next episode.