Welcome to the Connected Mom podcast where we have conversations about connecting more deeply with God, more empathically with your fellow moms, and more intentionally with your child. I'm your host, Becky Harling. And I have with me today my beautiful coach cohost, Sarah Wildman. Welcome, Sarah.
Thank you, Becky. It's so good to be here. And we have two special guests with us here today. So let's tell what they're going to be talking about with us.
I know I'm so excited today because I love these two guests. So I want you to know I'm going to do a very short introduction. It will all be in the show notes because I really want to get into it. So, Dr. Helen Macintosh, is that the way you say your last name? Helen? And, uh, we have Dr. Helen. That's what we're going to call her. And her daughter, Blythe Daniel, who is a very dear friend of mine. And they wrote the book together called Mended. Relationships between mothers and daughters can be extremely complicated. And we are continuing a conversation here on the Connected Mom podcast that we began in our last episode. In our last episode, we had author Debbie Alstorf talking about her book. It's complicated, and it is. It's very complicated at times between mothers and daughters. But I thought it would be fun to have Blythe and Dr. Helen on because they wrote the book together as mother and daughter called Mended. And so that's what we're going to talk about today. So today's episode is really going to give you hope that there could be healing between mothers and daughters no matter what's happened in the past. So, Dr. Helen, you had quite the story growing up. Tell us a little bit about your mom's story and how that impacted your desire to connect with Blythe who's your daughter.
Right, well, thank you for this opportunity to hopefully encourage those who are watching and listening. Um, my mother was very bright and giving, loving, and at times really, ah, quite an outstanding person. But she developed over the years a tremendous anger problem that was so difficult. Oh, my goodness. And I was the target for the most part. Um, she dealt with depression, anxiety, alcohol, many, uh, things. This is what was confusing. We had sweet times, but then we had difficult times. And I had heard always that what you focus on, you will become. And so I felt like I was even living a double life because I was so trying to be intentional, to not replicate the drama. And by this time, I had my sweet Blight. I certainly didn't want to hurt her as I had been wounded. So, um, my mother is deceased now. She died probably 20 years ago. Um, and we ended fairly well. So that's what Blythe and I are about. We want to share the principles that we learned in those terrible early years that have really helped us to have an even stronger relationship. We didn't just moderate, we really embraced those principles, and I think it made us stronger. And mom always hoped that her story could help others, and I believe it has, because she was very regretful about the pain that she inflicted on me. And we have used it for good right life.
And I think that our own mother issues can so impact how we connect with our own mothers. Sarah, what were you going to say?
Well, just in your experience, where do mothers and daughters most often get it wrong or have conflict? I know a lot of listeners can relate, but in your experience, where does it go wrong? Most of the time?
I would say if I could choose just two things to talk about, it would be words and control. The words we use are so important. I know Proverbs 1821 is one of my favorites right now that it's just so clear. In scripture, there are, umpteen, verses that talk about the importance of our words. And my mom's words were sadly damaging, but God's words and restorative words that we give to one another in relationship make it okay. But we need to be very careful about our words because they stick. And it is really hard to unheard those damaging words. And then I'd say control is the other one. We have worked really hard to not be controlling, and we, uh, have put in the mended books and hopefully some questions that we can ask one another in order to share what's on our hearts, but not be controlling. So those are two that are really important.
M. So, Blithe, this question is for you. If there's been distance between mother and daughter and maybe haven't connected for a while, or the connections that you have had have not been great, how does a daughter take initiative to open the conversation? I mean, a lot of our listeners are daughters.
Yes.
And, um, the word that you used, Becky, is so good initiatives. A lot of times daughters don't take initiative, and sometimes mothers don't take initiative with their daughters because of the fear of rejection. And so I think the first step is to say, uh, to yourself, I really want to have this relationship, or I want to make things better between us. And so just even being able to say that to the other person, as you've said it to yourself, to then say to the other person, I know that things aren't where they need to be, or I know things could be better between us, and I want to do my part to help us get there. So you're taking the responsibility for yourself, even if that person has done most of the wrong or that person has distanced themselves from you. When you put yourself in a place of honoring the other person, respecting them, even if they don't deserve, uh, it, um, because they've not acted right or they've hurt you. But when we can put ourselves really before the Lord as we do this to say, um, I choose you, like, I choose to have a conversation with you. I want to have a conversation with you and see, um, where we can start new today.
Um. One of the things that mom has.
Really taught me has been that we don't have to go back over years and years of history and try to name every single thing that has gone on between mothers and daughters. But start where you are right now. And of course. Some of those things will come up in your conversations. But it's not like you have to solve every single problem in the past in order to start a relationship. So it's just acknowledging, um, I want to talk to you. I've missed you. I want to have a closer relationship with you that might not feel possible for you right now, but it's on my heart. And then we can go into more of a conversation of, um, here's the things that matter to me. And how would you see us moving forward together?
Um, give the other person a chance.
To respond and maybe give their perspective on what they've seen that they would want to see in a relationship that wasn't there.
It's just a way of humbly asking.
What do you think that we can do moving forward? How would you see me responding to you? How would you see me approaching you? I think we'll make him be as honest as that. We don't have to have a polished script, but those kinds of invitations into conversation can be a great starter.
Healing word mhm in place of the damaging.
Yeah.
Obviously, when things haven't gone well with moms and daughters, there's a lot of hurt. So even maybe a daughter that knows she should do that should seek to initiate restoration. How do you first deal with that hurt and what are some tips on that? Because I feel like that could easily lead the conversation, and that's very valid. Right. But I guess my question is more about the hurt that did happen and how we walk forward with that.
Yeah, go ahead, blind.
Uh, I think part of when you can refrain from starting a conversation with, you've hurt me so much, and certainly we want to acknowledge that there has been awkwardness pain hurt.
Um, but when you lead with, I want to have a conversation with you, I want to talk to you, and then you can talk about asking the other person, what do you see that needs to happen in our relationship? Yet again, we're starting there. And then you can say, if they don't ask you, what do you think? But you can say, I know that I've experienced hurt from you in the ways that I've asked God to, um, restore my heart. And maybe that's the point where the other person might say something to you. I'm sorry because they've seen you model humility. Um, so how do you process her before you even have this conversation? I would say process that with the Lord, write it out in a journal, pray. Maybe you're seeking counseling to help work through that hurt and pain before you even come to the daughter or the mother, so that you don't want to just fill it all out in front of them. But there is a place where you can say, I want to learn to trust you. I know that I have lost some trust in me because of the hurt that I've experienced in our conversations, the way that you treated me in the such and such situation. But I choose to forgive you. So again, and it isn't saying that it never happened, but some of the time, you're dealing with a lot of the hurt before you have this conversation. You may be working with a counselor, like I said, but I think it's important that you don't bring every situation.
Into the conversation where you're wanting to restore.
But you could even say, can we go back to that time where in front of my friends, you said this to me, and this is how I felt. And I'm choosing to forgive you because I honor you and I love you, but I need you to know that.
That'S how it made me feel.
So you can do it in a way where you're talking about you're hurting your pain, but it isn't a blame game. It is acknowledging the pain. You're not saying I'm a better person because I've forgiven you, but you are able to say, with God's help, I'm choosing to forgive you. With God's help, I'm, um, moving forward, and I want you to move forward with me. So those are some ways here, I think, that can acknowledge the hurt without hurting the other person in the process.
Thank you.
I love how sensitively you answered that, blibe. And I guess, um, a follow up question would be, what do you say to the woman who maybe the mom doesn't think she's done anything wrong, but the daughter has really been hurt, she needs to forgive. But to say, I forgive you, mom, when mom doesn't think she's done anything, how does that look? What does that look like?
My mother never did ask my forgiveness after decades of difficulty and pain and anguish. And she even had it as an instruction at AA, numbers four through nine. But she never chose to ask me. But I realized in those years with my relationship with God that he was the one in charge of my emotions, and he led me to forgive her whether she ever asked that question or not. Plus, he, um, began to teach me that I was not to get my love, joy, and peace from a relationship or from her, that I needed to be accurate and be clear about the hurt and pain and where it came from. But we were never meant to, um, let a relationship drive us. It's our relationship with the Lord that covers that all. I know so many women who just language because their relationships are not going well and so they are so, um, depressed or sad because of that. But we are to get past that. The Lord would really want us to be healed from that dependency. It's a dependency and we need to just be dependent on God. And it's really a reality. It's not just good words, it works.
Mhm, and you know, sometimes, um, Becky, back to that question, I think about how some women don't know how much they've hurt people, their daughter, their family members. And I have longed for the Lord to intercede and show them that where I'm not the person that has to show them how they've hurt me, but that we can pray and we can ask God to show them what needs to change in their heart. And I do believe in the power of prayer. All of this is based in prayer of going to God, even before you would have a conversation with a mother or a daughter and ask God, show me what I'm even supposed to say and how I'm supposed to bring it up. Um, but again, I think our job is to really take into account how we're behaving and what our choices have been. Sometimes that will prompt a mother or daughter to say, well, you know what, I actually wasn't very honest with you, or actually maybe I could have done that different. So they might go into the conversation, the other person not acknowledging that they've done something, but when you've come to them humbly and taken account for your own actions, it could lead them to take account for theirs. Now, they may never and as mom said, she had to choose to forgive her mom, even though her mom never acknowledged the wrong and the hurt. And I think that's where on this side of eternity, we have to acknowledge that some things aren't going to always resolve the way we want them to, but it doesn't mean we don't try. Um, but they may never own their stuff, they may never own those things. And we have to, unfortunately, be willing to let that go and to know that God will prevail justice. Um, and there will be ways that.
He will speak to your heart and.
Heal your heart when the other person doesn't ask for forgiveness or doesn't acknowledge, um, their difficulties. We've seen this in mothers and daughters. We've seen some daughters and m mothers heal in those places and we've seen some with a daughter walks away feeling like they've done everything they can and the mom's not taking any responsibility and they've learned they're being able to go on in life. It's not based on how their mother, um, would see them, but they do know that God sees them as whole and restored. And I know it's hard to focus on that side of it rather than the healing that you would love to have. Um, but we never know how God will work. We never know how that person might turn around and come back at some point and acknowledge we live in the moment, we live in the now.
That's right.
One of the visuals that we put in the book, a word picture that God gave me some time ago where two cups bumping. And this helped me to clear up what were my issues and what were my mother's issues. So if you can picture us as two cups bumping, what comes out of each cup is what is in one's heart. So she used to say, you make me so mad when I didn't think I'd done a thing and probably didn't, but it helped me to see that it was her anger, it wasn't mine, and I didn't cause it. It came out of her heart. So maybe that visual will help. And recently, maybe just a month ago, guy gave me another visual. I need word pictures. Personally, I don't know about you girls, but, um, this was when someone's not taking responsibility and you've got your eyes on them, saying to yourself, well, they need to do this, and they need to be kind to me, and they need to ask my forgiveness, et cetera. God said, um, the wonderful section in Matthew that talks about the spec and the log in your eyes? Well, he said, Helen, I want you to picture a tennis court, and I want you to keep your eyes on your side of the court, not the other side of the court. So, uh, I leave you with that visual. It has come really handy this last month.
I love that. Helen, one of the things that I most admire about you is that, uh, because you grew up with such a dysfunctional mother, you took steps and got your doctorate in counseling and psychology, and I just loved that. So I just want to affirm you what a great way to send a message to blind. Hey, I want to do this different. And, in fact, so much so that I'm going to get a degree in this so that I understand how to hand something better on. I just really love that. And I think what a gift to your daughter. And the other thing that I love is, as Helen is passing down this new legacy to Blythe I know you well, right? So I watched the way you're doing it with your daughters, and you're passing down a different kind of legacy to your daughters. And so, uh, while there can be a ripple effect of dysfunction, there's also the ripple effect of grace in changing the script. And that can go on through generations, and God can use that for generations to come. So I kind of love that, right. And so, um, Sarah in our relationships with our kids, and especially when you have two sons. But I know for me, I have three daughters and a daughter in law, and I want all those relationships to be really strong, you know, and there have been moments where I have said to my girls, you know, uh, how are you experiencing me right now? Because I want to do this better. Um, and I know the girls have reached out to their daughters, and so there really is hope, I think, even when things have not been the best between mothers and daughters, I just really love that. So my hats off to you, Helen. Thank you for starting the ripple effect of grace in your family. And I just kind of love that. Um, let me ask you this, Helen, since I know Blythe so well, was Blythe the perfect daughter all along? Was she always perfect in this journey?
You know, I'm going to say pretty much she really was. Although I knew that she struggled sublime.
Is shaking her head no, and you're.
Saying pretty much she was as good as they come. She, um, really was. She was just famous.
Well, that's the testimony of a good mother right there, right? Because we see our girls through rose glasses, and yet all of us have had our moments, right? And so as we offer each other grace, then we will receive grace. So there's a ricochet effect to that. And so how do you handle unhealthy generational patterns beyond what you did, Helen? I mean, you clearly took very tangible steps, like, I'm not going to pass this down to my daughter and to my son. And so what are some steps that you can give our listeners? Let's say they grew up with a really dysfunctional mom, um, and they want to hand something different down to their kids. I have been asked this question a lot recently. How do I not pass this on to the next generation? What tangible tips do you have for them?
Well, thank you for the opportunity to talk just a little bit more about my divine belief. What I was most concerned about passing along were my imperfections, my dysfunction with my mother. And, uh, so that was my focus. And I think that is also the answer to your question. And you had that conversation recently. You just said with your daughter, and it's coming to them and saying, I really don't want to be and this is the conversation I had with Blythe many times. I don't want to be an angry mum. I don't want to pass on the difficulties that my mother and I had. So Glyph, would you please let me know if you see me controlling or being angry or ten other things, would you let me know? And you can tell me if you see these things because I really do want to know. And hopefully I'm not sure she ever had that conversation with me, but it's still open. And that accountability, I guess, would be that's what it's called. And humility and putting yourself wide open with those below you. Uh, blithe and I are committed to a legacy of love for our family, but part of that is really expressing in words the brokenness and the mistakes that we've made and our hope, um, and belief that God will help them to do it better. And I think that honesty and that fearful hope is huge. I'm beginning to see more and more what Romans 828 is all about, that God really will take the things that we've messed up on and work them together for good. M that covers so much territory, I think, just ongoing checking on your integrity with your children and asking them open ended questions like, if we were to do something this week, what would you see me doing? What do you need to see from me? What do you see me doing that would be helpful to you? Just continuing to lay yourself before them is probably the next thing I'd say.
I would also just say to that, I think a lot of times when we want to do something different than has been done to us, a lot of it is how we see ourselves in that process. And I think about David and how close that he was to the Lord. And we all know the sin, numerous sins that, um, he was involved in. And yet I was reading recently in Second Samuel where he was saying this is the prayer that he was praying before the Lord. And he even said to in that prayer, um, he was talking about how God, um, knows him, his rock, his fortress, and he says he's the God of my life and when I have no sin and I'm before the Lord, he acknowledged that he was saying, I have no sin because he knew he was forgiven. And so I love that. Here David, who had messed up in some places and knew there were generations behind him. He could acknowledge that God was the God of forgiveness. And so I think he began to see himself differently for his own family line. And so I think that's what we need to do as well as to recognize that we've all messed up, but we can see ourselves as God sees us, which is loved and forgiven. And in that spirit, we can move forward with our families not expecting perfection, but expecting that God will bless our family when we ask Him, when we come before Him and acknowledge Him.
M I love that so much. So we are almost out of time, sarah and I'm going to throw the ball to you and ask you, would you recap some of these principles that Blythe and Helen gave us? Because I think our listeners had the opportunity to glean so much from this conversation. So would you recap, Sarah? And then I'm going to ask Blythe to close us in prayer in a few minutes.
You got it. Well, I think what's beautiful about this book title that you guys have titled Mended, I love that that shows that despite all the brokenness, that God still can restore. So I just wanted to start with that. I think their title is just beautiful and a real encouragement to moms and daughters who maybe need to take that first step in this journey. Right? So thank you, ladies, for writing it. First of all, I just wanted to say that. But I think with the summary, it's those words and what Helen shared about, um, instead being conscious of it, but then using God's words instead. And I think, wow, that's such good advice for us as moms and daughters, and then also really working through that hurt and pain first and wanting them, um, your mom to enter that journey with you. Right? So that there's restoration. I think that's really special.
M and Blythe, I love your emphasis on prayer and how we go to God first before we even open the conversation. Because I think sometimes when a person is in a place of hurt, the temptation is, I got to fix this. I got to fix this. So I'm just going to go to my mom and say, hey, I want to fix this. And your mom might be sidelined by that. She might be blindsided. That's the word I'm looking for. And so I love the idea of spending significant time in prayer, asking God to prepare your mom for the conversation, or for you as a mom, if you're looking to mend your relationship with your daughter, going to prayer and asking God to prepare your daughter for that conversation. And then I loved some of what you said, Helen, about I really value our relationship, so please tell me if I'm coming across this way or that way. I think that's huge. And so often, I think as women get older, they can grow a little bit more defensive. But I loved the way you use the word open. We want to be open because then you're inviting your daughter into that space. And I just love this whole thing. I love you both so much. I also know you wrote a book called I Love You, Mom. That is a great gift you can give to your mom. And so, Sarah, at the end of this podcast, we're going to have information on where our listeners can get in touch with Helen and Blithe, where they can buy the book Mended. And honestly. If you have a.
Uh.
Strained relationship with your mother. Or if you have a strained relationship with your daughter. I really want to encourage you to go to Amazon right now. Look up Mended and buy the book. And then spend some time in prayer and really take your time going through the book. Because the book is filled with practical suggestions and this I know our time in life on earth is short and we never know how long we have with our mothers. So do the work and try to repair the relationship now. Hey, Blythe, would you close us out with prayer? And would you pray for all the listeners out there who have listened to this? We've given them a lot to think about and, you know, some of them are thinking, yeah, but you don't know my mom, and I don't know how this is going to go. So can you just pray for them right now? And then I'll end our podcast.
God, we're so grateful for the opportunity to just share openly with those who are listening, who, um, might find themselves in a place of just pure discouragement right now with their relationships with a mother or a daughter or it could be another family member. So, Father, what we've shared today is just our hope is always in you. And we would ask that we would receive fresh grace and fresh words to use in our families. Father, we know that your desire is for restoration. I mean, you purchased the Israelites father. You took them out of their bondage and out of their slavery. Father, you opened him up to a new land. And so, Father, we pray for new lands being opened up in families now. We pray for each woman who's hearing to be encouraged that you're not finished writing the story in their family yet. Father, um, we know that when things aren't where we would want them to be, it's not that that's the final story. It's it's that we continue to pray and press in towards gaining restoration and healing in our relationships. And so we partner with you, we pray to you, we come before you, and we lift up our family members and we acknowledge our part in the relationship and we acknowledge what we could have done better, what we can do better. And we trust you. We leave it up to you. Father, we don't control each other, but we certainly submit ourselves to you. So for every person listening, maybe we today see ourselves as your daughter who humbly comes before you and asks to intervene and to work in our family relationships so that we can be your more effective kingdom workers, that we are women who are healed and are able to help heal other families by the way that we've been healed. And that's the goal. The goal would be to just continue to love you well and love each other well while we're here. So, Father, we pray all of this in your powerful name. Amen.
Amen. Hey, friends, thank you for listening to the Connected Mom podcast and we'll catch you next time in our next episode, where we'll have conversations about connecting more deeply with God, more empathically with our fellow moms, and more intentionally with our. Kids. Thanks for joining us today.