WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.470 --> 00:00:02.130 Kurt von Ahnen: Hey everybody. 00:00:02.130 --> 00:00:08.340 Welcome back to another fantastic episode of whose WordPress Agency is this. 00:00:08.340 --> 00:00:13.930 Anyway, my name is Kurt Van Onan and I'm here with my wonderful co-host, Toby Kres. 00:00:14.260 --> 00:00:17.709 And, we have a ton of stuff to go through today. 00:00:17.919 --> 00:00:19.090 I hope that you find it fun. 00:00:19.150 --> 00:00:20.410 Toby, welcome to the call. 00:00:21.340 --> 00:00:22.000 Toby Cryns: Thanks, Kurt. 00:00:22.090 --> 00:00:26.529 So, a friend of mine was conversing with, I was conversing with him earlier today. 00:00:26.799 --> 00:00:33.700 and, He, the way he explained, I, I am, I'm interpreting here, but he blew a big 00:00:33.700 --> 00:00:39.459 sale, like a big sale by my standard, like the dollar amount was more than 00:00:39.459 --> 00:00:41.200 I've ever charged, put it that way. 00:00:41.770 --> 00:00:47.020 and how he blew it, it made me think like our businesses are defined by sales. 00:00:47.050 --> 00:00:47.380 There's. 00:00:48.130 --> 00:00:50.440 Nothing else that defines it more than sales. 00:00:50.560 --> 00:00:51.880 did you sell or did you not sell? 00:00:52.150 --> 00:00:55.780 And it, it occurred to me that I've done what he did probably many times. 00:00:55.780 --> 00:01:00.130 And the gist of it is like usually like, not always, but usually like 00:01:00.130 --> 00:01:03.310 the more bureaucratic the organization that you're dealing with, the 00:01:03.310 --> 00:01:04.660 more meetings you're gonna have. 00:01:05.530 --> 00:01:05.590 Yeah. 00:01:05.590 --> 00:01:09.460 Just in the sales cycle, the more they're gonna ask of you to, for 00:01:09.460 --> 00:01:13.870 free stuff before they actually pay you or sign any agreement. 00:01:14.620 --> 00:01:18.550 Free time, free RFP responses, free ideas. 00:01:18.940 --> 00:01:21.940 And so he's gone through and he's been, communicating with 00:01:21.940 --> 00:01:23.350 me for months now about this. 00:01:23.350 --> 00:01:25.600 'cause I, I had actually sent him the lead months ago. 00:01:25.600 --> 00:01:26.740 'cause I didn't, I didn't wanna do it. 00:01:26.795 --> 00:01:29.110 I, I know that that's a thing. 00:01:29.140 --> 00:01:31.300 Like, I was like, I don't wanna go to these meetings. 00:01:32.800 --> 00:01:33.370 So I gave him the lead. 00:01:33.370 --> 00:01:34.090 That's a lot of baggage. 00:01:34.090 --> 00:01:35.020 Would you like to do it? 00:01:35.500 --> 00:01:35.920 Yeah. 00:01:35.980 --> 00:01:36.160 Yeah. 00:01:36.400 --> 00:01:38.020 But it was a good lead if you're into that. 00:01:38.260 --> 00:01:39.040 and so. 00:01:39.610 --> 00:01:44.140 I, I'm guessing this was like the sixth or seventh meeting that he's had with them. 00:01:44.680 --> 00:01:46.800 And, the gist of it, this is how he explained it to me. 00:01:46.800 --> 00:01:48.120 He is like, I think I blew it. 00:01:48.230 --> 00:01:53.030 and I'm interpreting he sounded like he went in there tired and ornery. 00:01:53.030 --> 00:01:53.690 And pissy. 00:01:54.705 --> 00:01:55.125 Mm-hmm. 00:01:55.370 --> 00:01:56.509 Have you ever done that current? 00:01:57.710 --> 00:02:00.920 Kurt von Ahnen: Well, I have, you know, it's, it's amazing because, 00:02:00.980 --> 00:02:02.660 being in business for decades. 00:02:03.050 --> 00:02:08.270 Lends a lot of expertise should we say, right? 00:02:08.389 --> 00:02:11.000 That, that people new to, to industry don't expect. 00:02:11.420 --> 00:02:16.700 I have a saying in my training and it is focused on the relationship and the 00:02:16.700 --> 00:02:18.560 transactions will naturally follow. 00:02:19.190 --> 00:02:23.570 If you are so focused on transaction, you'll blow the relationship and the 00:02:23.570 --> 00:02:25.160 relationship is what makes the sale. 00:02:25.820 --> 00:02:28.790 So I always say focus on the relationship and. 00:02:29.495 --> 00:02:33.725 The transaction will naturally occur and yeah, if you're ornery, if you're 00:02:33.725 --> 00:02:38.135 tired, if you're tired of the BS and another free meeting and a, you know, 00:02:38.235 --> 00:02:43.095 what probably happens, especially in these big situations is you end up 00:02:43.095 --> 00:02:47.625 spending a bunch of time with soldiers on the ground and you never get to, to 00:02:47.625 --> 00:02:49.245 meet the general and get the approval. 00:02:49.515 --> 00:02:51.135 It just seems like it goes on and on and on. 00:02:51.675 --> 00:02:55.875 I have shortcut this immensely in my last 15 years of business. 00:02:56.505 --> 00:02:59.715 I ask people straight up, Hey, is the decision maker in this room today? 00:02:59.715 --> 00:03:01.365 Are, are we moving forward or not? 00:03:01.785 --> 00:03:03.675 And I set my expectations accordingly. 00:03:04.105 --> 00:03:05.785 but that's part of the relationship. 00:03:06.385 --> 00:03:08.665 If you are hungover, if you're sick. 00:03:09.160 --> 00:03:12.970 If your kids kept you up all night, if your spouse had you in the hospital, 00:03:13.300 --> 00:03:16.820 you know, for, I had a mountain bike race last weekend, two weekends ago, 00:03:17.240 --> 00:03:22.370 and it was a husband and wife coaching duo, and the woman of the couple had 00:03:22.370 --> 00:03:24.740 an, an appendicitis had to go to the hospital in the middle of the night. 00:03:25.460 --> 00:03:27.890 Well, I didn't, we didn't need either one of those coaches coming 00:03:28.070 --> 00:03:29.285 to work with the kids that day. 00:03:29.825 --> 00:03:30.190 You know what I mean? 00:03:30.190 --> 00:03:30.350 Mm-hmm. 00:03:30.430 --> 00:03:30.995 You haven't slept in mm-hmm. 00:03:31.265 --> 00:03:31.955 40 hours. 00:03:32.555 --> 00:03:37.115 cancel the appointment, reschedule, put, make sure that you can show 00:03:37.115 --> 00:03:40.265 up in a good frame of mind, because if you are not in the proper frame 00:03:40.265 --> 00:03:41.765 of mind, you're gonna blow it. 00:03:42.875 --> 00:03:43.325 Toby Cryns: Yeah. 00:03:43.325 --> 00:03:44.225 And I think like I. 00:03:44.555 --> 00:03:46.775 That's, so that's something that I continually learned. 00:03:46.775 --> 00:03:49.445 It happened to me earlier this year, and thankfully I had somebody set me straight 00:03:49.445 --> 00:03:52.625 before I attended the meeting because I was like, ah, we're not, it's one of 00:03:52.625 --> 00:03:54.935 these things like, we're not quite ready. 00:03:55.025 --> 00:03:56.615 It wasn't even like that was in a bad mood. 00:03:56.615 --> 00:03:58.055 It was just like, we're not quite ready. 00:03:58.055 --> 00:04:00.005 And my, SEO guy, it was an SEO pitch. 00:04:00.005 --> 00:04:04.805 He's like, Toby, let's cancel the meeting and postpone it till we're ready. 00:04:04.805 --> 00:04:06.770 Like, and, and he was totally right, you know? 00:04:06.770 --> 00:04:07.010 Yeah. 00:04:07.030 --> 00:04:07.530 And I think. 00:04:08.120 --> 00:04:09.410 What you said is spot on. 00:04:09.410 --> 00:04:12.680 You're probably better off canceling and rescheduling 00:04:13.010 --> 00:04:16.280 Kurt von Ahnen: And there are so many ways to do that where 00:04:16.280 --> 00:04:19.490 you keep pride as a thing. 00:04:20.300 --> 00:04:20.330 I. 00:04:20.330 --> 00:04:22.280 Right, and I always say, you should put pride in your back pocket. 00:04:22.280 --> 00:04:25.550 Humility is much more attractive than pride, but still there. 00:04:25.580 --> 00:04:27.890 You don't wanna look like a moron, right? 00:04:28.130 --> 00:04:32.150 So in your case, like you're preparing for an SEO pitch, you're not quite ready. 00:04:32.360 --> 00:04:35.870 It is so much better to just call the client and say, Hey, I know we had an 00:04:35.870 --> 00:04:39.500 appointment scheduled, but I really want to value your time and I don't feel 00:04:39.500 --> 00:04:43.070 like we're properly prepared to execute this meeting at a high level right now. 00:04:43.460 --> 00:04:45.560 Can we reschedule so we can be. 00:04:46.250 --> 00:04:49.010 You know, more cognizant of the time you're investing with us and make sure we 00:04:49.010 --> 00:04:53.390 really bring the value and they're gonna go, how are they gonna argue with that? 00:04:53.390 --> 00:04:53.480 Right. 00:04:53.840 --> 00:04:56.990 They're gonna go, okay, that was transparent, helpful. 00:04:56.990 --> 00:04:58.070 They thought about me. 00:04:58.100 --> 00:04:58.880 Oh, perfect. 00:04:59.270 --> 00:05:01.400 And then you buy yourself the time and then you come in 00:05:01.400 --> 00:05:02.360 and knock it out of the park. 00:05:03.050 --> 00:05:05.480 Toby Cryns: Yeah, I think the, the, maybe the moral of that story is 00:05:05.480 --> 00:05:09.090 like, you might lose one out of a hundred doing that, but like. 00:05:09.600 --> 00:05:12.090 You're probably only putting yourself in a stronger position. 00:05:12.540 --> 00:05:12.840 Kurt von Ahnen: Yeah. 00:05:13.590 --> 00:05:13.980 Yeah. 00:05:14.520 --> 00:05:18.510 And I wanna be more, more forward. 00:05:18.570 --> 00:05:24.430 I think here, Toby, I can tell that you're a person that is, insightful and 00:05:24.430 --> 00:05:26.860 self-reflecting and these types of things. 00:05:26.920 --> 00:05:28.270 I am too, to a certain point. 00:05:28.630 --> 00:05:31.090 And I think when we tell somebody. 00:05:31.720 --> 00:05:35.380 Hey, I just really wanted to bring some value to you and I'm not sure 00:05:35.380 --> 00:05:37.300 we're at our A game right now. 00:05:37.510 --> 00:05:40.180 Can we reschedule so that when we see you, we bring our A game? 00:05:40.990 --> 00:05:44.740 I just have a feeling that your a game when you show up prepared is 00:05:44.740 --> 00:05:48.670 probably a plus, plus plus compared to the competition in your area. 00:05:49.270 --> 00:05:50.140 Toby Cryns: And that's a great point. 00:05:50.200 --> 00:05:50.560 Yeah. 00:05:50.560 --> 00:05:53.590 Kurt von Ahnen: And, and if I'm just being blunt, part of the strength of 00:05:53.590 --> 00:05:57.220 dealing with Ano Nomas is that when Ano Nomas has a meeting to show you 00:05:57.220 --> 00:05:59.260 something, I'm showing you something. 00:05:59.815 --> 00:06:01.915 I'm not wasting your time and talking about, well, what 00:06:01.915 --> 00:06:02.935 if this and what if that? 00:06:02.935 --> 00:06:06.055 I'm saying you, we did your needs assessment. 00:06:06.235 --> 00:06:07.915 These were the results of the needs assessment. 00:06:07.945 --> 00:06:11.305 Here's a statement of work we agreed to, and here's our first version. 00:06:11.305 --> 00:06:15.205 In a lot of cases, our first version, the customers go Holy crud. 00:06:16.165 --> 00:06:17.785 'cause they're used to getting jerked around. 00:06:18.475 --> 00:06:18.625 Toby Cryns: Mm-hmm. 00:06:21.865 --> 00:06:26.855 Also, if I could push back a little on this, all that is true. 00:06:26.915 --> 00:06:32.585 And yet I found myself on a sales call just a week ago where I was 00:06:32.585 --> 00:06:35.765 like, what was the topic of this call? 00:06:36.695 --> 00:06:37.865 Like, why am I here? 00:06:37.985 --> 00:06:41.885 And it was a legit call, like that was scheduled and I was just not prepared. 00:06:42.585 --> 00:06:45.975 and I feel like on shows like these, like it, it's easy. 00:06:45.975 --> 00:06:48.345 Like what people say is like oftentimes like. 00:06:48.720 --> 00:06:49.650 We're perfect. 00:06:49.710 --> 00:06:52.860 We never screw this up, but I just wanna throw that out there. 00:06:53.160 --> 00:06:53.940 I was on a call. 00:06:53.940 --> 00:06:55.110 It went okay. 00:06:55.220 --> 00:06:58.640 could have gone way better had I been at all prepared. 00:06:58.700 --> 00:07:01.160 it just, it was one of these things that was like, oh, I'm supposed to 00:07:01.160 --> 00:07:02.540 be at a meeting in five minutes. 00:07:02.600 --> 00:07:03.680 Who's this person? 00:07:04.070 --> 00:07:06.500 Like, I just screwed up that way. 00:07:06.610 --> 00:07:07.030 so I don't know. 00:07:07.030 --> 00:07:11.230 I just wanted to share that if there's any, like, I don't know, inexperience, 00:07:11.230 --> 00:07:14.470 sales, the WordPress agency owners like. 00:07:14.905 --> 00:07:18.865 Sometimes you're, you're, you have to show up, you know, like just by, 00:07:19.115 --> 00:07:21.725 malfeasance on your, your end, you know? 00:07:21.725 --> 00:07:24.695 Kurt von Ahnen: Well, what you're describing though is really the difference 00:07:24.695 --> 00:07:27.815 between being an entrepreneur, right? 00:07:27.905 --> 00:07:30.515 Being an an agency owner versus. 00:07:31.055 --> 00:07:33.785 You know, someone in a cubicle, in a corporate setting, right? 00:07:34.055 --> 00:07:38.405 If, if I can, I don't have nightmares about it or anything like that, but 00:07:38.465 --> 00:07:42.005 when I worked at Suzuki, that was a big corporate office, you know, and there was, 00:07:42.365 --> 00:07:49.715 they had 14, I wanna say 14, 14 meeting rooms in that place, you know, and you 00:07:49.715 --> 00:07:52.505 had to book a meeting room and then you had to, you know, you had to, you had 00:07:52.505 --> 00:07:55.445 to be there at a certain time and get out at a certain time and this, and you 00:07:55.445 --> 00:07:57.095 had to execute this and execute that. 00:07:57.525 --> 00:07:59.385 but what I learned about working there was I. 00:08:00.015 --> 00:08:03.675 They judged you more about how you executed the meeting process 00:08:04.305 --> 00:08:06.675 than the actual work that was the result of the meeting. 00:08:07.635 --> 00:08:08.940 It was, it was so bizarre. 00:08:08.940 --> 00:08:09.180 Yeah. 00:08:09.185 --> 00:08:12.405 And then you flip the script and you go, well, I'm an agency owner now, right? 00:08:12.405 --> 00:08:12.495 Mm-hmm. 00:08:13.035 --> 00:08:17.775 And so, yeah, I'm efficient with the meeting, but where my margins come 00:08:17.775 --> 00:08:23.235 to life is when my processes, you know, form a, form a process that 00:08:23.235 --> 00:08:27.015 makes, makes a deliverable happen in a timeline that is much more 00:08:27.015 --> 00:08:28.724 condensed than what the client expects. 00:08:29.355 --> 00:08:29.535 Right. 00:08:29.535 --> 00:08:29.595 Yeah. 00:08:29.595 --> 00:08:31.575 And that's where the margins come to life. 00:08:31.665 --> 00:08:35.924 Toby Cryns: Well, you bring up an interesting point, like if, if I 00:08:35.924 --> 00:08:40.125 was trying to land a job with Suzu, Suzuki or some big organization, 00:08:40.125 --> 00:08:43.965 pretty much every big organization, I think is kind of what you described. 00:08:43.965 --> 00:08:46.755 Like they care more about appearances Yeah. 00:08:46.760 --> 00:08:49.035 Than about, than the actual, the other stuff. 00:08:49.365 --> 00:08:49.785 Yeah. 00:08:50.295 --> 00:08:51.645 you should keep that in mind too. 00:08:51.645 --> 00:08:52.005 Right. 00:08:53.880 --> 00:08:54.780 Kurt von Ahnen: Yeah, yeah. 00:08:54.780 --> 00:08:58.439 Show up on time, be prepared, present well in the meeting. 00:08:58.439 --> 00:09:02.310 And then after the meeting, you know, I focus on knocking it out of the park. 00:09:02.340 --> 00:09:06.660 I've got some really great processes that I use to run our bus project, 00:09:06.660 --> 00:09:09.510 manage what we do with our, with our different players on the team. 00:09:10.020 --> 00:09:13.249 And, I, it's funny because people say, what do you really do? 00:09:13.249 --> 00:09:15.439 And I say, and I'm like, well, I'm really a project manager. 00:09:15.920 --> 00:09:18.889 I'm a much better project manager than I am a website designer. 00:09:19.459 --> 00:09:20.360 You know, it just happens. 00:09:20.360 --> 00:09:23.910 I work in the web field, but I'm able to orchestrate people from all over 00:09:23.910 --> 00:09:26.910 the globe on these different things and have everything fall together 00:09:26.910 --> 00:09:32.250 like a Lego set so that the project is complete when it's due and under budget. 00:09:32.790 --> 00:09:36.630 So that to me is what people are really coming to me for. 00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:41.280 all that creative stuff and all that weird talk that people are having 00:09:41.280 --> 00:09:45.300 now about vibe coding and all this stuff, I think that's like superfluous 00:09:45.300 --> 00:09:46.590 to what we actually deliver. 00:09:47.310 --> 00:09:48.030 Toby Cryns: That's interesting. 00:09:48.030 --> 00:09:52.110 Like, was talking with another friend this week about, he's dealing with a, 00:09:52.110 --> 00:09:54.930 a crappy project manager on a agency. 00:09:54.960 --> 00:09:56.850 He's working, he owns an agency. 00:09:56.850 --> 00:10:00.980 They're doing work for another agency and he was like, this is the third project 00:10:00.980 --> 00:10:02.690 manager I've worked with at this company. 00:10:02.720 --> 00:10:03.890 The first two were great. 00:10:03.950 --> 00:10:06.950 This one's new and he sucks, and like. 00:10:07.850 --> 00:10:11.690 I used to think project manager not long ago, like five years ago. 00:10:11.690 --> 00:10:14.450 I was like, Ugh, I would hate to be considered a project manager. 00:10:14.450 --> 00:10:15.470 They make less money. 00:10:15.470 --> 00:10:17.480 They have no power. 00:10:17.480 --> 00:10:21.680 They get all the pressures, but I. 00:10:21.680 --> 00:10:25.490 It is, it is true like it is if you're an agency owner, it's one way 00:10:25.490 --> 00:10:28.850 you can make your mark is like, if you're a great project manager, you 00:10:28.850 --> 00:10:30.260 don't have to be great at coding. 00:10:30.260 --> 00:10:33.380 You don't have to be great at a lot of other stuff, especially if you're 00:10:33.380 --> 00:10:35.090 going for these bigger contracts. 00:10:35.120 --> 00:10:38.690 'cause it's more about the process than it is about the deliverable. 00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:39.710 Kurt von Ahnen: Like, yeah. 00:10:40.400 --> 00:10:40.610 Yeah. 00:10:40.610 --> 00:10:44.610 I can't tell you how many times, especially in the enterprise marketplace 00:10:44.610 --> 00:10:46.410 of the bigger ticket jobs, and this is. 00:10:46.770 --> 00:10:49.470 We talked about this on a couple episodes ago where we said sometimes 00:10:49.470 --> 00:10:51.150 the more money, the easier the job. 00:10:51.670 --> 00:10:55.540 some of these enterprise jobs, I'll say, oh, well we're working on this 00:10:55.540 --> 00:10:58.480 design nuance, or We're, and, and they just go, yeah, we don't care. 00:10:58.480 --> 00:10:59.380 Where are the courses at? 00:10:59.875 --> 00:11:01.465 You know, where, where's the function? 00:11:01.675 --> 00:11:03.505 So how do I change a member's grade? 00:11:03.835 --> 00:11:06.385 Like that's, that's what they care about. 00:11:06.745 --> 00:11:10.735 And they don't care about, you know, this widget, the shade of blue on this button. 00:11:10.735 --> 00:11:13.255 They, you know, the, you know, this has a drop shadow. 00:11:13.255 --> 00:11:15.175 Like, they don't care about any of that stuff. 00:11:15.175 --> 00:11:20.215 It seems like they might down downstream, but to launch the product, they're 00:11:20.215 --> 00:11:22.165 more like, we're on a timeline. 00:11:22.225 --> 00:11:24.775 We made a promise this would be ready to go by such and such a date. 00:11:24.775 --> 00:11:25.435 How we coming? 00:11:25.915 --> 00:11:28.585 And it's, it's the small projects. 00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:31.810 You know, where people have no paying customers yet, they're launching 00:11:31.810 --> 00:11:35.170 their first course, and they're like, I really wanted a different shade 00:11:35.170 --> 00:11:38.500 of blue with a drop shadow, and I want a higher radius on this button. 00:11:38.890 --> 00:11:41.140 And you're like, your course isn't done yet. 00:11:42.460 --> 00:11:42.820 Right. 00:11:43.030 --> 00:11:45.550 You're selling a course, but you don't have any course content. 00:11:45.550 --> 00:11:48.280 And like, yeah, but I really want the website to have a certain look and feel. 00:11:48.730 --> 00:11:49.000 Toby Cryns: Right? 00:11:49.570 --> 00:11:50.140 Yeah, totally. 00:11:50.140 --> 00:11:52.840 Well, and and, and anybody who sells. 00:11:53.665 --> 00:11:56.694 Every day knows, like all, none of that stuff matters. 00:11:56.875 --> 00:11:57.535 None of it matters. 00:11:57.670 --> 00:12:02.455 Like, like it's what you're saying, like, do they trust me or not? 00:12:02.455 --> 00:12:03.985 Kurt von Ahnen: Like Yeah. 00:12:04.084 --> 00:12:09.694 so I know we're off the rails, but on a percentage basis, what the 00:12:09.694 --> 00:12:14.944 clients you work with, how many of them say, wow, I really need to 00:12:14.944 --> 00:12:18.964 customize the, the, the checkout page. 00:12:20.615 --> 00:12:22.505 Toby Cryns: Close to 0%. 00:12:22.505 --> 00:12:22.895 Oh, yours? 00:12:22.895 --> 00:12:25.295 Because the convers conversations don't go there. 00:12:25.295 --> 00:12:25.895 How about you 00:12:25.895 --> 00:12:28.565 Kurt von Ahnen: like, it's in the, in the courses space? 00:12:28.865 --> 00:12:31.595 I ca Well, 'cause I do support for lifter LMS, right? 00:12:31.595 --> 00:12:35.345 So in the courses space, I, I need to customize this. 00:12:35.345 --> 00:12:37.055 How do I customize the checkout page? 00:12:37.055 --> 00:12:38.885 How do I customize the login page? 00:12:38.945 --> 00:12:41.705 And I'm like, if you've already sold the course, 00:12:43.790 --> 00:12:46.865 what, what is it about the checkout page that you think is gonna change 00:12:46.865 --> 00:12:48.515 their mind about buying your course? 00:12:48.905 --> 00:12:54.545 Right, because the, the page was designed to convert so other people that are 00:12:54.545 --> 00:12:59.015 smarter than you, that, that, that have paying customers, develop this. 00:12:59.104 --> 00:13:00.905 And you are brand new to the space. 00:13:00.905 --> 00:13:03.694 You don't have any paying customers yet, but you want to customize 00:13:04.145 --> 00:13:05.765 all of these, you know, dynamic. 00:13:06.454 --> 00:13:08.285 Pages that are, they're templates. 00:13:08.285 --> 00:13:11.344 They're, they're made a certain way on purpose and, and it's, 00:13:11.435 --> 00:13:13.115 the responses are always unique. 00:13:13.265 --> 00:13:14.074 I'm always amazed. 00:13:14.074 --> 00:13:17.285 'cause I, I always say, what about, you know, what about the login page makes you 00:13:17.285 --> 00:13:18.875 think someone's gonna ask for a refund? 00:13:20.435 --> 00:13:21.875 They already paid and, and ran 00:13:25.295 --> 00:13:25.685 people. 00:13:25.685 --> 00:13:27.905 Toby Cryns: You're, it's not your, it's not your pricing. 00:13:27.910 --> 00:13:29.105 It's not your login page. 00:13:29.105 --> 00:13:29.974 That's the problem. 00:13:31.160 --> 00:13:31.579 It's the login page. 00:13:31.704 --> 00:13:32.145 Kurt von Ahnen: Don't sell. 00:13:32.510 --> 00:13:33.500 It's the login page. 00:13:33.500 --> 00:13:36.410 They, they bought the course and, and the course has value, but this 00:13:36.410 --> 00:13:38.300 login page is just too much friction. 00:13:38.840 --> 00:13:40.010 It's too much friction. 00:13:40.040 --> 00:13:40.460 Toby Cryns: Yep. 00:13:40.550 --> 00:13:40.910 Yep. 00:13:42.560 --> 00:13:43.100 That's funny. 00:13:43.100 --> 00:13:43.310 Yeah. 00:13:43.310 --> 00:13:47.540 I, I always think like, just in general, any question, any tech question, I'm 00:13:47.540 --> 00:13:49.640 always like, how is this making you money? 00:13:49.640 --> 00:13:50.030 If we do. 00:13:50.870 --> 00:13:53.510 Like, how does this make you more money if we fix this? 00:13:53.510 --> 00:13:56.240 Like, and you can put, insert any question in there. 00:13:57.500 --> 00:14:00.620 Kurt von Ahnen: Well, and I feel like, and I gotta remember that we 00:14:00.620 --> 00:14:05.400 are making a show, Toby, you and I are making a show that is for, agencies, 00:14:05.400 --> 00:14:09.060 people that own agencies, and a lot of these agencies are making marketing 00:14:09.060 --> 00:14:11.070 products, brochure style websites. 00:14:11.370 --> 00:14:13.440 So maybe they're not all about conversion. 00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:16.440 Maybe they're not all about how many people get to the checkout page. 00:14:16.770 --> 00:14:18.720 A lot of websites don't have those things. 00:14:19.080 --> 00:14:19.620 Mm-hmm. 00:14:20.040 --> 00:14:25.410 But then it, it still comes to light of, you know, how much of your time as an 00:14:25.410 --> 00:14:31.770 agency owner is driven by nonsensical nuance as opposed to core features 00:14:31.770 --> 00:14:36.150 that drive functionality and make your site do what it's supposed to do well. 00:14:36.150 --> 00:14:36.540 Toby Cryns: Yeah. 00:14:36.540 --> 00:14:37.430 And, yeah, exactly. 00:14:38.130 --> 00:14:41.250 this kind of brings up another, thing that I've been experiencing. 00:14:41.250 --> 00:14:42.449 I'm selling my, I have. 00:14:43.634 --> 00:14:46.244 I have an old house, a house that we just moved out of that we're 00:14:46.244 --> 00:14:52.584 selling and we're having like, emotional, we're in like an emotional 00:14:52.584 --> 00:14:54.354 low 'cause nobody wants to buy it. 00:14:54.474 --> 00:14:55.914 And we're like, why not? 00:14:55.914 --> 00:14:57.444 It's a great house. 00:14:58.624 --> 00:15:01.555 and it reminded me of, there's this idea, I think there's a book called The Messy 00:15:01.555 --> 00:15:07.495 Middle, but the idea that like when you're deep in a long project, the middle is. 00:15:08.050 --> 00:15:09.250 Mucky or messy. 00:15:09.250 --> 00:15:12.640 Like it's just, and I was thinking like Frodo on Mount Doom, if you read 00:15:12.640 --> 00:15:15.730 Lord of the Rings, this isn't in the, the movie, I don't think, but like 00:15:16.120 --> 00:15:20.010 he's sitting on Mount Doom with, with Sam Wise and he's like, we're in the 00:15:20.010 --> 00:15:24.660 middle of a great story and yeah, we might die, but isn't this cool? 00:15:24.995 --> 00:15:25.625 Isn't this cool? 00:15:26.965 --> 00:15:32.335 and I was thinking like, I think all businesses on all big projects, they 00:15:32.335 --> 00:15:34.345 get, it gets really messy and mucky and. 00:15:34.870 --> 00:15:41.320 It, it's hard for us as like the delivery people to see through it, but I was 00:15:41.320 --> 00:15:43.910 curious, Kurt, from your perspective. 00:15:45.230 --> 00:15:51.060 You know, I think in general, businesses try to, help, like part of our job is 00:15:51.060 --> 00:15:56.070 to help our clients not see the muck and to kind of like steer their eyes 00:15:56.160 --> 00:15:57.630 to the things that are important. 00:15:57.630 --> 00:15:59.070 But how do you communicate? 00:15:59.520 --> 00:16:03.000 The mucky muck with clients and how do you help them see through the 00:16:03.000 --> 00:16:05.190 muck in the middle of a big project? 00:16:07.080 --> 00:16:11.340 Kurt von Ahnen: I think that's an unfair question to ask me if 00:16:11.340 --> 00:16:14.940 we're thinking about parlaying this information to other agency owners. 00:16:15.500 --> 00:16:18.350 know, because I authored the book on leadership and stuff like that, so I 00:16:18.350 --> 00:16:23.390 come down to, I have some, people say scripts are nasty, like salespeople 00:16:23.390 --> 00:16:25.010 that use scripts, like that's nasty. 00:16:25.370 --> 00:16:26.510 But what I call these is like. 00:16:27.040 --> 00:16:28.780 verbal muscle memory, right? 00:16:28.780 --> 00:16:32.470 So I have this verbal, verbal muscle memory that I use with people. 00:16:32.860 --> 00:16:35.590 Let's say I'm in the middle of a project and it just seems like you get 00:16:35.590 --> 00:16:41.320 to, like, you got the website, so you got the WordPress tools in and you got 00:16:41.320 --> 00:16:44.410 the, the plugins in, and you've got the basic formatting and configuration 00:16:44.410 --> 00:16:48.010 done, and you're starting to put in the content, and then the, the client 00:16:48.040 --> 00:16:49.810 just starts getting like all fractured. 00:16:50.110 --> 00:16:51.400 Like they're just all over the place. 00:16:51.400 --> 00:16:53.200 And that's kinda that mucky middle thing, right? 00:16:53.830 --> 00:16:54.370 a lot of times. 00:16:55.210 --> 00:16:58.660 And, and this is, this is the reason that I stopped telling 00:16:58.660 --> 00:16:59.920 people I was a WordPress agency. 00:17:00.970 --> 00:17:02.320 I'm not a WordPress agency. 00:17:02.380 --> 00:17:04.030 I am a business consultancy. 00:17:05.020 --> 00:17:07.960 And so I say, well, let's get, let's get down to brass tacks. 00:17:07.990 --> 00:17:10.120 What is it that you truly deliver as a business? 00:17:10.120 --> 00:17:12.970 What are your core ideologies that you deliver as a business? 00:17:12.970 --> 00:17:16.150 How do you deliver those, those items, those goods or those services? 00:17:16.750 --> 00:17:16.990 Right? 00:17:16.990 --> 00:17:20.410 And then as we build the product to message those items out. 00:17:20.800 --> 00:17:23.740 If they start getting all weird and distracted in the middle of the project, 00:17:23.860 --> 00:17:25.420 I just say, Hey, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa. 00:17:25.420 --> 00:17:26.290 Let, let's gather up. 00:17:26.290 --> 00:17:30.430 Let's circle the wagons and let's focus again on what your core deliverables are 00:17:30.430 --> 00:17:32.200 and how this website communicates that. 00:17:32.620 --> 00:17:37.780 And then I say, my goal is to get you published as soon as possible. 00:17:38.200 --> 00:17:43.330 And we can always augment, modify, and change as we go, but let's get you to a 00:17:43.330 --> 00:17:48.580 launch date as quickly as possible with a minimal viable product so that we can 00:17:48.580 --> 00:17:50.050 start to communicate with your audience. 00:17:50.815 --> 00:17:52.435 And that seems to get them back on track. 00:17:52.645 --> 00:17:55.885 Like, 'cause then I go, so let's get back to what are the minimal 00:17:55.945 --> 00:18:01.045 viable requirements that we need for this project to launch? 00:18:01.945 --> 00:18:05.155 And, and that gets 'em refocused and we just start to get back on point. 00:18:05.155 --> 00:18:08.365 And it's, it becomes a, like, smart goal setting, right? 00:18:08.765 --> 00:18:09.845 is it strategic? 00:18:09.845 --> 00:18:11.045 Is it measurable? 00:18:11.045 --> 00:18:12.275 Is it achievable? 00:18:12.275 --> 00:18:13.535 Is it time related? 00:18:13.805 --> 00:18:15.275 And I just, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. 00:18:15.695 --> 00:18:16.025 Right? 00:18:16.315 --> 00:18:16.795 Toby Cryns: yeah. 00:18:16.795 --> 00:18:21.475 And I imagine it's also like self-talk, like Kurt, you know? 00:18:21.475 --> 00:18:24.205 'cause they're asking all these weird questions maybe in the middle and 00:18:24.205 --> 00:18:26.785 you're like, Kurt, what's the goal here? 00:18:26.785 --> 00:18:30.115 You know, sometimes like, what are we trying to achieve today? 00:18:30.565 --> 00:18:30.835 Kurt von Ahnen: Yeah. 00:18:30.985 --> 00:18:31.885 What, yeah. 00:18:31.885 --> 00:18:37.915 'cause it so many times I was just, I mean this is so uncanny, but I was on a call 00:18:37.915 --> 00:18:44.485 today with a client and they're building a membership learning website and they were. 00:18:45.235 --> 00:18:50.815 These membership tools are very confusing because they install a membership 00:18:50.815 --> 00:18:54.655 tool and most people don't recognize there's nothing in there to manage 00:18:54.655 --> 00:18:56.815 members in a membership tool like these. 00:18:56.865 --> 00:18:59.085 I shouldn't say membership tools, the community sites. 00:18:59.385 --> 00:18:59.475 Mm-hmm. 00:18:59.715 --> 00:19:02.265 So fluent community, body boss, all these things. 00:19:02.265 --> 00:19:04.710 They don't have tools that manage the membership side of it. 00:19:04.755 --> 00:19:08.055 And so you have these tools and they're like, so how does 00:19:08.055 --> 00:19:09.645 someone get to the newsfeed? 00:19:09.675 --> 00:19:12.345 How does someone, I don't want those people to get to the newsfeed. 00:19:12.345 --> 00:19:13.485 They didn't buy the membership. 00:19:13.485 --> 00:19:17.025 And I'm like, that's 'cause we need a membership tool to be able to manage who 00:19:17.025 --> 00:19:19.155 gets access to what levels of the site. 00:19:19.425 --> 00:19:23.055 And you have to break all that down and the customers start getting like, 00:19:23.655 --> 00:19:27.255 poof, like fireworks have gone off and the A DH D's kicking in and they're 00:19:27.255 --> 00:19:28.665 just picking stuff outta the sky. 00:19:28.695 --> 00:19:28.815 Yep. 00:19:29.055 --> 00:19:30.465 And that's when I go, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. 00:19:30.645 --> 00:19:31.635 We gotta slow this down. 00:19:32.355 --> 00:19:35.565 Let's put in a membership tool who gets access to the community site. 00:19:35.805 --> 00:19:36.195 Great. 00:19:36.435 --> 00:19:37.575 We'll run that by tags. 00:19:37.575 --> 00:19:39.105 We'll run that through the fluent CRM. 00:19:39.105 --> 00:19:40.155 We'll do an automation. 00:19:40.155 --> 00:19:42.705 We'll send an email and they get access to that link. 00:19:42.735 --> 00:19:43.185 Perfect. 00:19:43.245 --> 00:19:43.725 We're done. 00:19:44.265 --> 00:19:45.795 And then they go, oh, how did you do that? 00:19:45.825 --> 00:19:47.235 I've been doing it for 22 years. 00:19:48.105 --> 00:19:50.775 You know, let's, let's just get you to the next problem. 00:19:50.955 --> 00:19:51.735 This one's solved. 00:19:52.995 --> 00:19:56.385 Toby Cryns: So you've just been describing some really smart 00:19:56.385 --> 00:20:00.535 decisions you've made, just like a process for smart decision making. 00:20:01.045 --> 00:20:04.225 But what's the worst business decision you've ever made? 00:20:06.325 --> 00:20:08.755 Kurt von Ahnen: I'm not gonna share her name because I don't wanna get sued. 00:20:11.365 --> 00:20:12.145 we all do it. 00:20:12.775 --> 00:20:16.105 I think no matter the size of your business, you're tempted to 00:20:16.105 --> 00:20:19.945 do it like you talk to a client or you're referred to a client. 00:20:19.945 --> 00:20:23.515 So in this case, I was referred to a client and I didn't wanna 00:20:23.515 --> 00:20:26.575 look foolish in front of the person that made the referral. 00:20:26.575 --> 00:20:27.895 I wanted to honor that person. 00:20:28.525 --> 00:20:32.275 And so I gave them too much time on a call and I gave them too much free 00:20:32.275 --> 00:20:36.985 information, and then they decided I was a genius and wanted to hire me, and 00:20:37.045 --> 00:20:40.765 the needs assessment wasn't really fully done, but I threw a number out there 00:20:40.765 --> 00:20:42.235 like, yeah, I can make it happen for this. 00:20:43.135 --> 00:20:45.175 The person that made the referral. 00:20:45.805 --> 00:20:48.265 Actually side stepped part of the project. 00:20:48.355 --> 00:20:52.615 And so I should have been going through that person and they should have been 00:20:52.615 --> 00:20:54.055 the point of contact for the client. 00:20:54.415 --> 00:20:57.565 But what happened was the client ended up being a direct point of contact 00:20:57.565 --> 00:21:03.055 with me and then tried to like, after the fact say, well, I was under the 00:21:03.055 --> 00:21:05.605 impression it was gonna this, it was gonna, that it was gonna, the other 00:21:05.605 --> 00:21:10.195 thing, and here's the truth of it, and I'm just gonna be blunt and say it. 00:21:10.495 --> 00:21:11.485 We needed the money. 00:21:12.130 --> 00:21:12.550 Right. 00:21:12.550 --> 00:21:15.640 So I was like, ah, do I give this person their money back and tell 'em to hit the 00:21:15.640 --> 00:21:19.210 skids or do I keep the project every time? 00:21:19.210 --> 00:21:23.260 You have that doubt, this is coming from me. 00:21:23.710 --> 00:21:26.290 Give the money back, figure it out some other way. 00:21:26.755 --> 00:21:28.045 Give the money back. 00:21:28.525 --> 00:21:31.165 this woman was incredibly unethical. 00:21:31.465 --> 00:21:33.325 I wanna put this in my disclaimers. 00:21:33.325 --> 00:21:34.255 I want to do this. 00:21:34.255 --> 00:21:37.075 I, I'm gonna take this material from this person's website and 00:21:37.075 --> 00:21:38.245 embed it in my own website. 00:21:38.365 --> 00:21:40.285 It's like horribly unethical things. 00:21:40.345 --> 00:21:42.085 And I'm like, I can't do that for you. 00:21:42.175 --> 00:21:44.305 And then every time I would call her unethical for something, 00:21:44.305 --> 00:21:45.595 she would get more angry at me. 00:21:46.225 --> 00:21:47.305 so I built the website. 00:21:47.305 --> 00:21:49.585 It was fully functional, fully operational. 00:21:49.975 --> 00:21:51.655 I gave her access to the website. 00:21:52.270 --> 00:21:54.940 And then she disputed her fee with Stripe. 00:21:54.940 --> 00:21:55.930 And Stripe took all the money. 00:21:57.430 --> 00:21:58.990 So I did months of work. 00:21:59.050 --> 00:22:03.640 I took hours and hours and hours of Zoom calls I never should have taken. 00:22:04.270 --> 00:22:08.140 And I worked with somebody that I thought was a horrible, horrible person. 00:22:08.650 --> 00:22:11.440 And I did it all in good faith with a smile thinking at least I'm 00:22:11.440 --> 00:22:12.760 getting paid and we need the money. 00:22:12.855 --> 00:22:13.275 Mm-hmm. 00:22:13.360 --> 00:22:18.880 And at the end, she stole the work, stole the money, and Stripe never gave it back. 00:22:19.510 --> 00:22:19.870 Yeah. 00:22:21.175 --> 00:22:24.025 So that was my worst decision because I knew I shouldn't have worked 00:22:24.025 --> 00:22:25.225 with the person, but I did anyway. 00:22:25.225 --> 00:22:25.465 Yeah. 00:22:27.175 --> 00:22:27.565 How about you? 00:22:27.565 --> 00:22:28.465 What's your worst decision? 00:22:29.485 --> 00:22:32.505 Toby Cryns: Yeah, I think, it's similar actually in the sense like, 00:22:33.495 --> 00:22:37.335 it's like, you know, once you have an established business and you're 00:22:37.335 --> 00:22:40.545 like doing okay and you think you can make it another month without a 00:22:40.545 --> 00:22:43.935 whole problem occurring financially, 00:22:44.485 --> 00:22:46.315 Kurt von Ahnen: you're gonna buy meat instead of just beans. 00:22:47.665 --> 00:22:47.875 Toby Cryns: Yeah. 00:22:47.935 --> 00:22:48.355 Yeah. 00:22:48.665 --> 00:22:52.805 but like, so I was working, the, the gist of it is similar, but 00:22:52.835 --> 00:22:54.095 like I did it for the money. 00:22:54.605 --> 00:23:01.235 Like, and I, I shouldn't have, like I, I knew in my heart, in my head that in I was 00:23:01.235 --> 00:23:06.035 at a, a point where I could have walked away and I stayed on for another three 00:23:06.035 --> 00:23:09.035 months and took on a huge responsibility. 00:23:09.035 --> 00:23:12.845 You know, just basically continued with a different responsibility on a, and. 00:23:13.925 --> 00:23:18.755 Like I re it, it didn't, you know, it was just kinda like, yeah, the money was good. 00:23:18.755 --> 00:23:20.915 They ended up paying, but like, at the same time, it was like 00:23:23.495 --> 00:23:23.885 a regret. 00:23:23.885 --> 00:23:26.285 And this is the, the lesson of a money ball too. 00:23:26.525 --> 00:23:29.995 At the end when, Brad Pitt's, I don't know if it, again, it might just be in 00:23:29.995 --> 00:23:34.885 the book, but like basically Brad Pitt's sitting there, uh uh, and the gist is 00:23:34.885 --> 00:23:36.745 like, you shouldn't do it for the money. 00:23:36.865 --> 00:23:37.615 Shouldn't do it for the money. 00:23:38.095 --> 00:23:38.545 Yeah. 00:23:38.755 --> 00:23:39.355 Doesn't matter how. 00:23:39.355 --> 00:23:41.545 And he got offered millions and millions, not Brad Pitt, 00:23:41.545 --> 00:23:42.805 but his character in real life. 00:23:42.885 --> 00:23:45.765 Billy Beam got offered millions of dollars to skip. 00:23:45.885 --> 00:23:48.285 His thing was he skipped college and went straight to the pros. 00:23:48.285 --> 00:23:50.595 But what he really wanted to do was go to college and party 00:23:50.595 --> 00:23:52.155 and play baseball in college. 00:23:52.725 --> 00:23:56.945 so, yeah, if you can swing it now, I'm not saying sometimes you need 00:23:56.945 --> 00:24:01.075 the money and you, you know, you do the best you can, but, I think 00:24:01.075 --> 00:24:02.605 you gotta at least listen to your. 00:24:03.565 --> 00:24:04.825 Head and heart in those cases. 00:24:04.825 --> 00:24:08.395 And maybe that when you feel that maybe it's like about setting better 00:24:08.395 --> 00:24:10.195 boundaries around the project. 00:24:10.225 --> 00:24:10.555 Yeah. 00:24:10.705 --> 00:24:11.605 When you feel that. 00:24:12.205 --> 00:24:14.875 Kurt von Ahnen: So I'm gonna hit you with a personal question. 00:24:17.005 --> 00:24:21.775 Hindsight being 2020, if you look back, did you need the money? 00:24:23.755 --> 00:24:26.075 Toby Cryns: No, not, oh, you mean, for that project specifically? 00:24:26.075 --> 00:24:26.315 Exactly. 00:24:26.375 --> 00:24:27.560 Or No, I didn't. 00:24:27.720 --> 00:24:28.040 I didn't. 00:24:28.520 --> 00:24:30.470 Kurt von Ahnen: And that's exactly where my head goes. 00:24:30.800 --> 00:24:36.830 So when, so in the moment, we panic and, and we don't allow ourselves to 00:24:36.830 --> 00:24:42.410 make calm decisions, and that's when we make bungled decisions and moves. 00:24:42.830 --> 00:24:46.340 So when I look back on this project, this project, by the way, 00:24:46.340 --> 00:24:48.230 full disclosure, was only $3,000. 00:24:48.820 --> 00:24:53.170 the amount of Zoom calls alone was worth $3,000, let alone the woman was doing. 00:24:53.260 --> 00:24:57.850 This woman was so greedy and so crazy that she was, she was like a lunatic. 00:24:58.510 --> 00:25:04.090 The reason I knew that she was gonna ask for a refund was the last 00:25:04.090 --> 00:25:07.600 Zoom call I had with her was in one of those pay by the day motels. 00:25:08.440 --> 00:25:12.250 Like she turned on the zoom call and there was like a tornado 00:25:12.250 --> 00:25:13.630 had went off in this hotel room. 00:25:13.990 --> 00:25:15.790 And I'm like, what happened to her office? 00:25:15.850 --> 00:25:16.660 Where's her house? 00:25:16.750 --> 00:25:18.100 Where's where is this woman? 00:25:18.640 --> 00:25:19.000 You know? 00:25:19.000 --> 00:25:21.040 And I was like, oh, she's broke. 00:25:21.040 --> 00:25:23.170 And now she's gonna ask for her money back. 00:25:23.230 --> 00:25:23.650 Right? 00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:26.020 But it's like you see it and you know it. 00:25:26.410 --> 00:25:31.990 And I foolishly stuck with the project and looking back, hindsight being 00:25:31.990 --> 00:25:35.110 2020, I didn't need that $3,000. 00:25:35.320 --> 00:25:37.060 I didn't need that $3,000 at all. 00:25:37.075 --> 00:25:40.465 Yeah, we just talked on our last episode about how sometimes you fire 00:25:40.465 --> 00:25:44.035 customers and, and when you let something go, something better comes along. 00:25:44.605 --> 00:25:44.725 Mm-hmm. 00:25:45.085 --> 00:25:48.115 And right after she got all of her money back from Stripe, I landed like 00:25:48.115 --> 00:25:49.975 three great jobs right after that. 00:25:50.215 --> 00:25:50.275 Yeah. 00:25:50.515 --> 00:25:54.235 And I had the opportunity to take great jobs before that 00:25:54.235 --> 00:25:55.315 if I wasn't working with her. 00:25:56.005 --> 00:25:56.365 Yeah. 00:25:56.940 --> 00:25:57.280 You know? 00:25:57.700 --> 00:25:58.120 Mm-hmm. 00:25:58.200 --> 00:26:00.535 We gotta patient and we gotta make smart choices. 00:26:01.645 --> 00:26:04.965 Toby Cryns: And this, this leads me to, A quote, somebody said maybe a 00:26:04.965 --> 00:26:09.225 week or so ago, it says, at what point do you say even your husband couldn't 00:26:09.225 --> 00:26:12.915 take your BS and then set them loose, 00:26:15.015 --> 00:26:15.585 even your husband couldn't take your bs. 00:26:15.885 --> 00:26:17.295 Kurt von Ahnen: Would you ever say that to somebody? 00:26:19.125 --> 00:26:19.665 Toby Cryns: I wouldn't. 00:26:19.665 --> 00:26:20.415 Would you, Kurt? 00:26:20.655 --> 00:26:21.015 Kurt von Ahnen: No. 00:26:21.315 --> 00:26:21.435 No. 00:26:21.435 --> 00:26:25.660 I, I might rephrase it some, but but I, I wouldn't say that. 00:26:26.140 --> 00:26:28.185 yeah, when people act nuts, when they act. 00:26:29.125 --> 00:26:31.075 Disconnected and, and crazy. 00:26:31.345 --> 00:26:32.785 You gotta circle the wagons, man. 00:26:32.785 --> 00:26:37.585 And you gotta be direct and be a leader and say, Hey, as, as someone 00:26:37.585 --> 00:26:41.485 that's managing this project, I feel like we're off the rails a little bit. 00:26:41.485 --> 00:26:42.865 We gotta gather this back up. 00:26:43.375 --> 00:26:44.755 I've worked with projects before. 00:26:44.755 --> 00:26:48.175 I have seen, I worked with a wonderful lesbian couple. 00:26:48.175 --> 00:26:49.255 They were hilarious. 00:26:49.345 --> 00:26:52.080 And, we, we didn't align on certain beliefs and stuff, 00:26:52.080 --> 00:26:53.400 but, but they were hilarious. 00:26:53.400 --> 00:26:54.980 Like they were, they, they were into other like. 00:26:55.805 --> 00:26:59.365 I'm a Christian, they were in other kinds of religions and things and and then they 00:26:59.365 --> 00:27:01.405 ended up breaking up through the deal. 00:27:01.405 --> 00:27:05.125 But I saw it happening, like I saw like, oh, they're not gonna make it. 00:27:05.485 --> 00:27:08.185 and it's weird when you're just a web person and you're working 00:27:08.185 --> 00:27:11.665 on a project with a couple, you can tell something's wrong. 00:27:11.785 --> 00:27:16.365 I was doing one on a beautiful couple from, Texas and. 00:27:16.880 --> 00:27:20.060 they had someone in their family had gotten injured and that postponed 00:27:20.060 --> 00:27:21.260 the project for a little bit. 00:27:21.350 --> 00:27:23.540 And then they're an older couple. 00:27:23.540 --> 00:27:25.880 One of them started getting a little more sickly, and I was 00:27:25.880 --> 00:27:27.050 like, this ain't gonna work. 00:27:27.290 --> 00:27:27.980 This ain't gonna work. 00:27:28.040 --> 00:27:30.470 And we were so close to launch and it never launched. 00:27:30.590 --> 00:27:30.920 Right. 00:27:31.400 --> 00:27:34.340 divorces, deaths, strokes, heart attacks. 00:27:34.700 --> 00:27:35.660 I've seen it all. 00:27:37.490 --> 00:27:37.850 Oh, yeah. 00:27:38.690 --> 00:27:41.120 The divorce ones are hard because it's like mm-hmm. 00:27:42.185 --> 00:27:43.625 Who's in charge of the project then? 00:27:45.455 --> 00:27:45.785 Right. 00:27:46.175 --> 00:27:50.435 From a selfish perspective, who's, who am I sending these invoices to Every month 00:27:52.085 --> 00:27:55.925 Toby Cryns: there's an agency in town that's going a bigger, 00:27:55.925 --> 00:27:57.365 a bigger, agency in town. 00:27:57.545 --> 00:28:01.985 They're going through a divorce thing with their two co-owners. 00:28:02.135 --> 00:28:04.655 I mean, the owners are married, they're, you know. 00:28:04.655 --> 00:28:04.715 Yeah. 00:28:04.715 --> 00:28:09.605 And, and the, I only know 'cause my friend was an employee there and like. 00:28:10.115 --> 00:28:15.905 He's like, it's weird man, because like one spouse will come and tell him to do 00:28:15.905 --> 00:28:18.755 something, the other spouse will show up a minute later and be like, don't do that. 00:28:18.755 --> 00:28:20.525 Do this, don't do that, do this. 00:28:21.425 --> 00:28:25.805 He's just like, I'm in the middle of a freaking divorce thing now. 00:28:26.855 --> 00:28:28.265 Like, yep. 00:28:30.965 --> 00:28:34.035 Could we, Maybe, this might be the, the all we have time for today. 00:28:34.035 --> 00:28:35.685 We left a cliffhanger last week. 00:28:36.055 --> 00:28:40.165 the question was, is managed WP dying, but over the course, the course of the 00:28:40.165 --> 00:28:45.025 week, I kind of was thinking about it more deeply and the question is not for 00:28:45.025 --> 00:28:47.515 me, it's not so much is managed WP dying. 00:28:47.545 --> 00:28:51.415 That's a question I have, but like the core of the question is 00:28:51.415 --> 00:28:55.705 at what point as an agency owner do you jump ship on a technology? 00:28:56.095 --> 00:29:00.775 That is no longer getting the job done for you and you have, knowing you have. 00:29:00.835 --> 00:29:05.315 And so examples for me over the course of time, 15 years ago, host Gator. 00:29:05.525 --> 00:29:07.625 I jumped host Gator to someone else. 00:29:07.625 --> 00:29:11.945 And, you know, divvy was a core development tool I used to use. 00:29:11.945 --> 00:29:13.115 I no longer use it. 00:29:13.985 --> 00:29:16.595 we currently use Basecamp for project management. 00:29:16.595 --> 00:29:20.675 We're switching to Clickup and All of these are big processes, have big 00:29:20.675 --> 00:29:22.145 processes along, along with them. 00:29:22.145 --> 00:29:26.045 'cause we have employees and a hundred websites that we're migrating in some 00:29:26.045 --> 00:29:30.365 cases and, you know, so when, how do you think about infrastructure change 00:29:30.425 --> 00:29:32.015 like that, like tech infrastructure? 00:29:33.215 --> 00:29:36.155 Kurt von Ahnen: You mentioned one that scares the, the, the 00:29:36.155 --> 00:29:37.805 life outta me and that is. 00:29:38.420 --> 00:29:43.940 If you as an agency wanna migrate 50 or a hundred or 200 or 400 00:29:43.940 --> 00:29:46.500 websites, from one host to another. 00:29:47.640 --> 00:29:53.970 And I'm gonna go back to, hey, if these are brochure websites and you can do 00:29:53.970 --> 00:29:59.010 like, you know, WP Vivid, vivid, WP, whatever, and just migrate simple 00:29:59.010 --> 00:30:00.810 sites over, like that's okay, great. 00:30:00.810 --> 00:30:01.260 Perfect. 00:30:01.290 --> 00:30:01.680 Whatever. 00:30:01.710 --> 00:30:02.310 Have a great day. 00:30:02.670 --> 00:30:03.300 Enjoy yourself. 00:30:03.660 --> 00:30:05.760 If you're doing projects that have. 00:30:06.180 --> 00:30:10.650 you know, shopping carts, courses, you know, e-learning systems in them, 00:30:10.900 --> 00:30:16.810 community sites, dynamic content where like, this person paid a subscription 00:30:16.810 --> 00:30:21.190 at midnight, but the website was turned off at 1202 and then turned 00:30:21.190 --> 00:30:22.840 back on at six o'clock in the morning. 00:30:23.140 --> 00:30:23.620 And then. 00:30:24.355 --> 00:30:28.465 All of those transactions for those eight hours don't get recorded in the database. 00:30:28.465 --> 00:30:28.675 Right? 00:30:28.675 --> 00:30:30.475 And then you get all these support emails. 00:30:30.505 --> 00:30:33.415 It just, managing it is crazy. 00:30:33.505 --> 00:30:35.395 'cause then you end up having to say, Hey Mr. 00:30:35.395 --> 00:30:38.845 Customer, we're gonna be doing some site maintenance, quote unquote, and 00:30:38.845 --> 00:30:40.315 you're gonna be down for 24 hours. 00:30:40.465 --> 00:30:43.135 And then you gotta pray that you can get everything done in 24 hours. 00:30:43.735 --> 00:30:44.635 it is difficult. 00:30:44.755 --> 00:30:46.105 And I'm gonna go one step further. 00:30:46.855 --> 00:30:49.765 I have been working in a host lately. 00:30:50.965 --> 00:30:52.315 I can't explain it, Toby. 00:30:52.315 --> 00:30:54.205 Everything is just more difficult. 00:30:54.325 --> 00:30:58.525 Everything is more difficult, and it's, it's a co-hosted, not co-hosted. 00:30:58.525 --> 00:31:03.115 It's a, it's a co-managed situation, so we're basically subcontracting 00:31:03.115 --> 00:31:07.075 on this and it's like everything needs an external crown job set up. 00:31:07.075 --> 00:31:09.595 Everything needs PHP workers increased. 00:31:09.595 --> 00:31:13.375 Everything needs, it's like what is happening, like the sites 00:31:13.465 --> 00:31:18.055 don't seem to function well unless we dot every I across every T. 00:31:18.055 --> 00:31:19.555 Whereas in other hosts, I go. 00:31:19.915 --> 00:31:24.055 Slap up the website, put in the tools, add an SMTP, Bob's 00:31:24.055 --> 00:31:25.135 your uncle, we got a website. 00:31:25.705 --> 00:31:28.105 and it's, it's just not the same with other tools. 00:31:28.435 --> 00:31:31.465 And you as an agency man, you gotta know what you're getting into. 00:31:31.525 --> 00:31:35.365 You can't just say, you know, how many sites for how many dollars a 00:31:35.365 --> 00:31:37.585 month and how do I access support? 00:31:37.585 --> 00:31:38.635 And then move everything over. 00:31:38.965 --> 00:31:40.465 You gotta know what you're really stepping into. 00:31:41.530 --> 00:31:44.755 Toby Cryns: And, and I think there's a, a, a pretty big difference. 00:31:44.755 --> 00:31:47.125 So like a lot of those migrations probably. 00:31:47.800 --> 00:31:50.020 Need like an internal person? 00:31:50.020 --> 00:31:52.780 Yeah, like ideally it would be like some employee at the 00:31:52.780 --> 00:31:54.700 company that knows the system. 00:31:55.540 --> 00:31:59.170 and a lot of times in agency land you don't have that we're like external. 00:31:59.290 --> 00:32:01.690 We're like just like, yeah, we're gonna migrate the site. 00:32:02.140 --> 00:32:06.070 You know, we don't know, we don't know the business processes as deeply. 00:32:06.600 --> 00:32:09.750 I moved, migrated, so I used to work at Lumi deodorant and I was 00:32:09.750 --> 00:32:14.910 their CTO and I managed a migration of 300,000 WordPress users. 00:32:15.665 --> 00:32:17.075 to Shopify users. 00:32:17.075 --> 00:32:19.625 And these are paid subscriptions and stuff? 00:32:19.655 --> 00:32:19.775 Yeah. 00:32:19.855 --> 00:32:20.905 we did it at noon. 00:32:20.995 --> 00:32:22.255 This is a funny story too. 00:32:22.675 --> 00:32:23.965 I'm, I it was my choice. 00:32:23.965 --> 00:32:26.875 I'm like, we're doing it at noon on a Friday and here's why. 00:32:26.875 --> 00:32:28.945 And yeah, no noon on a Monday. 00:32:28.945 --> 00:32:29.815 I think it was a Tuesday. 00:32:29.875 --> 00:32:30.505 I'm like, we're doing it. 00:32:30.505 --> 00:32:32.365 And this was pre-planned and, and it was intentional. 00:32:32.395 --> 00:32:36.355 'cause like how many times have you experienced maybe like, we 00:32:36.355 --> 00:32:37.855 need you to do this at midnight. 00:32:38.575 --> 00:32:42.505 And you wake up at midnight, you do it, but you're groggy, you miss 00:32:42.505 --> 00:32:45.355 something, and then you go to bed, and then in the morning there's 00:32:45.355 --> 00:32:49.855 more problems because you miss those eight hours or whatever, 1700 emails. 00:32:49.905 --> 00:32:50.355 yeah. 00:32:50.625 --> 00:32:56.085 And so I, I, I still get flack from it, from the Lumi team because I'm like, 00:32:56.085 --> 00:32:58.125 no, we're doing this at noon on Tuesday. 00:32:58.155 --> 00:32:59.235 We're gonna have a good plan. 00:32:59.670 --> 00:33:02.070 I'll be fully ready to go. 00:33:02.070 --> 00:33:04.260 You'll be here to notice any issues. 00:33:04.260 --> 00:33:09.840 We have everyone on the phone, like at the distribution center, like, but that, like 00:33:09.840 --> 00:33:14.130 for a lot of these, I imagine a lot of the sites you would have to migrate if they 00:33:14.130 --> 00:33:15.780 have a lot of like thousands of users. 00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:19.590 You've, it's really tough to do externally as an agency. 00:33:20.250 --> 00:33:20.700 Kurt von Ahnen: Yeah. 00:33:21.990 --> 00:33:22.380 In. 00:33:23.010 --> 00:33:23.790 Upgrading. 00:33:23.790 --> 00:33:27.540 So if you're on certain host packages and you upgrade to a different 00:33:27.540 --> 00:33:31.860 type of server within their system, that always amazes me, right? 00:33:31.860 --> 00:33:35.160 Because you can just hit them up on chat and say, oh, I wanna move this website 00:33:35.160 --> 00:33:37.500 to this other, you know, upgrade server. 00:33:37.590 --> 00:33:40.590 And they just go, hold on, let me look at that for you real quick. 00:33:40.860 --> 00:33:42.780 And then 10 minutes later, like, okay, it's ready to go. 00:33:43.685 --> 00:33:44.105 Mm-hmm. 00:33:44.205 --> 00:33:45.390 And I'm not a host. 00:33:45.390 --> 00:33:47.550 Like I, I'm like, how did that happen so quickly? 00:33:47.550 --> 00:33:50.400 I go into the website, everything works, everything's 10 times faster, 00:33:50.400 --> 00:33:52.110 and you go, oh, that was great. 00:33:52.485 --> 00:33:56.235 But if you gotta take that same project and you gotta take it from, 00:33:56.775 --> 00:34:00.969 you know, cloud ways to Kinter, Kinter to WP Engine or whatever, it's. 00:34:01.350 --> 00:34:06.270 It's a nightmare moving thousands of users and all their content and then 00:34:06.300 --> 00:34:09.030 doing that whole like screenshot exercise. 00:34:09.030 --> 00:34:11.880 Like, okay, does the homepage look the same? 00:34:11.880 --> 00:34:13.650 Does the about page look the same? 00:34:13.650 --> 00:34:15.389 Does the contact page look the same? 00:34:15.449 --> 00:34:17.429 And then let's try and do a I. 00:34:17.734 --> 00:34:22.054 You know, a make believe student enrollment with a 99% off coupon. 00:34:22.384 --> 00:34:23.344 And so we try that. 00:34:23.344 --> 00:34:25.024 Then we go, oh crap, that doesn't work. 00:34:25.024 --> 00:34:25.745 What's broken? 00:34:26.074 --> 00:34:30.394 And then you gotta go through, okay, you know, SMTP external chron, you, you 00:34:30.394 --> 00:34:34.564 gotta make sure all the everything's in place it, and then multiply that by 00:34:34.624 --> 00:34:36.754 50 websites in a weekend or something. 00:34:36.964 --> 00:34:37.475 It's crazy. 00:34:37.504 --> 00:34:37.834 Toby Cryns: Yeah. 00:34:38.225 --> 00:34:41.794 And it's weird that the in as I thought about that, like the incentive 00:34:42.124 --> 00:34:46.054 structure, it, it's, it's really. 00:34:46.469 --> 00:34:49.439 The reason you need an internal person for that migration is 00:34:49.439 --> 00:34:54.089 like they're incentivized to think through all those problems. 00:34:54.120 --> 00:34:58.649 Whereas like an external agency like we run, the incentives are just different. 00:34:58.919 --> 00:35:04.740 Like we're not, even if we got fired, it's probably not the end of our world like it 00:35:04.740 --> 00:35:06.149 would be if you were an employee there. 00:35:06.629 --> 00:35:10.469 and is they also like every minute we spend on that project is a minute 00:35:10.469 --> 00:35:11.939 we don't spend on another project. 00:35:11.969 --> 00:35:12.059 Yep. 00:35:12.749 --> 00:35:15.389 And other client's not getting the attention, you know, the 00:35:15.389 --> 00:35:18.359 phone call that they need where I'm, you know, it's tricky. 00:35:18.419 --> 00:35:21.929 It's really tricky, I think to navigate as an agency owner. 00:35:22.679 --> 00:35:23.009 Yeah. 00:35:23.054 --> 00:35:25.204 Kurt von Ahnen: Yeah, it's, I kind of dread it. 00:35:25.384 --> 00:35:28.684 It's, I remember when I went from, I used to have a ton of 00:35:28.684 --> 00:35:30.394 stuff on Bluehost back in the day. 00:35:30.884 --> 00:35:32.954 and I think a lot of agencies start out this way. 00:35:32.954 --> 00:35:36.434 So if you're in that position, don't go, oh, Kurt's making me feel bad. 00:35:36.734 --> 00:35:37.964 I'm not trying to make you feel bad. 00:35:38.204 --> 00:35:39.164 You gotta start somewhere. 00:35:39.544 --> 00:35:43.354 I used to love Bluehost 'cause I could register unlimited URLs and I could 00:35:43.354 --> 00:35:46.474 throw sites into my hosting account and I could move things around. 00:35:46.474 --> 00:35:49.174 And they were great for like, proof of concept sites. 00:35:49.744 --> 00:35:52.864 You know, like if I, I, I could throw a lifter, LMS in there and, and I could, 00:35:53.194 --> 00:35:56.164 you know, put in content and build a course and let people see a sample of 00:35:56.164 --> 00:35:57.394 what something was gonna look like. 00:35:57.844 --> 00:36:02.404 But sooner or later I had projects that had more success, more users, 00:36:02.404 --> 00:36:06.514 and I had to say, okay, I need, I need more bandwidth, I need less caching. 00:36:06.904 --> 00:36:09.424 I need, you know, 'cause these dynamic sites, if they're heavily 00:36:09.454 --> 00:36:10.864 cashed, run into some problems. 00:36:11.404 --> 00:36:14.734 And so I ended up having to move some things over to a different host. 00:36:15.214 --> 00:36:18.244 And that to me was like, oh, this is work. 00:36:18.559 --> 00:36:20.419 This is, this is difficult. 00:36:20.839 --> 00:36:25.729 And so now I try really hard to do the research before the decision and 00:36:25.729 --> 00:36:29.269 then make sure that when I make that decision, I'm locked in for a while. 00:36:30.294 --> 00:36:30.584 Toby Cryns: Yeah. 00:36:30.589 --> 00:36:30.679 Yeah. 00:36:31.369 --> 00:36:35.859 That's, the scars have bred that planfulness in you. 00:36:36.579 --> 00:36:37.209 Kurt von Ahnen: Yeah. 00:36:37.539 --> 00:36:40.149 And then the other thing to remember, and this is gonna, this 00:36:40.149 --> 00:36:42.429 is just agency to agency advice. 00:36:43.329 --> 00:36:46.899 If you choose a host that has a bunch of extra bells and whistles, 00:36:47.859 --> 00:36:51.189 just remember the people that you're developing these projects for. 00:36:51.549 --> 00:36:53.019 They don't need those bells and whistles. 00:36:53.739 --> 00:36:56.949 Like, I don't share everything that my host will do with my clients. 00:36:56.949 --> 00:36:58.509 There's no way, like I'm not gonna say, oh, you could have 00:36:58.509 --> 00:37:00.129 unlimited emails on your URL. 00:37:00.129 --> 00:37:00.474 Like, I'm right. 00:37:00.819 --> 00:37:03.609 I'm just not, I am not babysitting 25. 00:37:04.029 --> 00:37:09.309 Email accounts on, you know, well, I want to have help at my URL services at my URL 00:37:09.429 --> 00:37:11.749 uhhuh people at my u rl support at my url. 00:37:11.779 --> 00:37:12.319 No, you don't. 00:37:12.439 --> 00:37:14.479 No, you, you want info at your URL and that's it. 00:37:15.469 --> 00:37:15.949 That's all you get. 00:37:17.539 --> 00:37:18.260 That is all you get. 00:37:18.260 --> 00:37:19.734 That's all you get what email for you? 00:37:20.329 --> 00:37:20.449 Yeah. 00:37:20.449 --> 00:37:22.849 You could sign up for Google Workspaces That'll run your email. 00:37:23.579 --> 00:37:28.769 but it's, I'm very strategic about the way that I manage that because even though the 00:37:28.769 --> 00:37:33.439 host I chose will do all kinds of really cool things, I am not giving my clients 00:37:33.439 --> 00:37:36.799 exposure to the really cool things that I have to manage and, and maintain and, 00:37:36.799 --> 00:37:38.839 and keep the expectation level high with. 00:37:39.319 --> 00:37:41.029 'cause all they really wanted was the website. 00:37:41.989 --> 00:37:42.079 Toby Cryns: Mm-hmm. 00:37:44.239 --> 00:37:44.689 Cool. 00:37:44.989 --> 00:37:45.679 Great way to end it. 00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:46.909 Here, I'll take this out. 00:37:47.319 --> 00:37:49.779 This has been an episode of whose WordPress agency is this? 00:37:49.779 --> 00:37:53.049 Anyway, with Kurt Van Onin and myself, Mr. 00:37:53.139 --> 00:37:53.889 Toby Kres. 00:37:54.529 --> 00:37:55.489 we'll see you next week.