WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:09.080 --> 00:00:10.440 Okay. 00:00:10.440 --> 00:00:15.580 I am really excited to have, uh, Robert Dillon as part of the Transformative Leadership Summit. 00:00:15.719 --> 00:00:24.119 Uh, he has been a longtime, uh, friend online, and someday I will get to meet him in person, and I can't wait 'cause it's gonna be awesome. 00:00:24.680 --> 00:00:28.090 And, uh, I'm excited to have him here today to talk about learning spaces. 00:00:28.090 --> 00:00:36.469 He's just finished a book and has another book coming out soon about learning spaces, and he's currently the director of Bright Bytes. 00:00:36.500 --> 00:00:39.719 And welcome, Robert, thank you so much for being a part of this. 00:00:40.180 --> 00:00:45.969 Hey, thanks Jethro, and, uh, it's great to be here and great to be a part of this bigger, uh, summit. 00:00:46.010 --> 00:00:51.739 I love this idea that we can learn mi- uh, asynchronously from quality people all over the country. 00:00:51.739 --> 00:00:57.899 And so if we're not modeling that, um, then, um, I don't know how we can ask others to do that, so thanks for having me. 00:00:58.609 --> 00:01:17.050 Well, speaking of models, you are a great model for that, and you've always been someone who has pushed learning into different areas, and so I'm excited to talk to you about that today, and especially about, um, learning spaces because I think that that is so important to what we're doing. 00:01:17.209 --> 00:01:33.410 And the, the... just this last year at my school we got some treadmill desks and some standing desks and, uh, different seating arrangements for, uh, all of our classrooms, and it's really been exciting to see how the kids have gotten excited about that. 00:01:33.410 --> 00:01:37.349 So, so let's start there, um, with furniture and- Yeah 00:01:37.480 --> 00:01:39.740 talk about how, how furniture impacts kids' learning. 00:01:40.469 --> 00:01:40.770 Yeah. 00:01:40.770 --> 00:01:42.889 Well, let me back up just for a second and then I'll go there. 00:01:42.919 --> 00:01:50.240 Um, I, you know, I've been thinking lately about, um, the big levers of disruption in education, and I don't think there are too many. 00:01:50.240 --> 00:01:56.580 I think that we have a lot of doing the wrong stuff more right, as Will Richardson says. 00:01:57.020 --> 00:02:01.910 Um, and when we really, really wanna shake a system, we've got a few things. 00:02:01.910 --> 00:02:08.899 We've got the schedule, um, we've got grades, and I think you can put learning spaces in there as well. 00:02:09.029 --> 00:02:15.910 I think when people visually see school as something different, uh, it can be a disruptive force. 00:02:15.910 --> 00:02:25.589 And so I think over my last 10 years as a middle school principal and, um, CTO, and now as the director of the Bright Bytes Institute, I've been looking for those big levers. 00:02:25.589 --> 00:02:29.559 And so it's been nice for the last couple years to play in the learning space, uh, arena. 00:02:30.580 --> 00:02:33.940 And I do think that furniture's a big part of, uh, what you talk about. 00:02:34.109 --> 00:02:42.050 Uh, we've been stuck, literally at times, stuck in desks, um, in rows for way, way too long. 00:02:42.580 --> 00:02:52.199 Um, and we know that, um, you know, energy, productivity, the type of collaboration we're all begging for can't happen in that type of arena. 00:02:52.619 --> 00:02:57.540 And we actually know that one-to-one technology fails, uh, in that same sort of space. 00:02:57.940 --> 00:03:08.500 And so I think that- Um, this is a big lever also in making sure that, uh, technology integration is going to be maximized in schools as well. 00:03:09.010 --> 00:03:11.630 And why do things fail in that space so much, Bob? 00:03:13.850 --> 00:03:16.120 You know, I think it fits in the other, in the other buckets, right? 00:03:16.120 --> 00:03:18.880 Like, uh, we've al- we always do what we've always known. 00:03:19.400 --> 00:03:26.349 Uh, sometimes it's hard to build a sense of urgency around, um, things like facilities and operations. 00:03:27.309 --> 00:03:32.740 And, um, and so I think that all of those things, uh, just create momentum more than anything else. 00:03:32.740 --> 00:03:38.019 Uh, I think when there's momentum one direction, uh, systems naturally just want to keep going that direction. 00:03:39.210 --> 00:03:39.439 Yeah. 00:03:39.529 --> 00:04:00.770 That's very true, and one of the things that I've seen in, in my experience is that if you change a space or change a schedule or change how you grade, then everybody starts talking about what that actually means, and if everything is the same as it always was, then it doesn't really mean anything, right? 00:04:00.890 --> 00:04:00.969 Yeah. 00:04:00.969 --> 00:04:09.329 And so being able to have that conversation of what does it mean is very powerful and informative as you, as you start these conversations. 00:04:09.849 --> 00:04:21.560 Yeah, and one of the things we talk about in the book, uh, The Space, is that this isn't about decorating classrooms, um, that it's not about Pinterest pretty classrooms, if you want to put it that way. 00:04:22.179 --> 00:04:38.069 Um, it's truly about redefining, um, the habitat in which kids build learning habits, and I think that's one of my kind of favorite buzzes out of the book is that idea is that we're really looking at, uh, learning habitats. 00:04:38.139 --> 00:04:48.999 Um, you know, kids are eight hours a day, um, in classrooms that either support their learning or inhibit their learning, and I think we have a responsibility to make those the best we can. 00:04:49.060 --> 00:04:58.120 Doesn't mean we need to pull up the money truck, doesn't mean we need to back up everything and, uh, um, you know, not be able to do something, but, um, we need to do something there. 00:04:58.639 --> 00:05:12.819 Yeah, absolutely, and you know, that idea of money, it sounds very expensive to do anything with, um, learning spaces as in a physical location because buildings are so expensive, furniture is so expensive. 00:05:13.259 --> 00:05:17.880 What are some easy, simple ways that we can start adjusting our learning spaces? 00:05:20.800 --> 00:05:27.279 One of the first things I do when I talk about learning spaces is ask what we can take out, and there, there's something that doesn't cost, right? 00:05:27.750 --> 00:05:29.229 Is there an old bookshelf? 00:05:29.529 --> 00:05:30.920 Are there old blinds? 00:05:31.159 --> 00:05:34.300 Are there an extra table that inhibits the way we walk through the room? 00:05:34.659 --> 00:05:36.739 Is there a teacher desk we can remove? 00:05:37.250 --> 00:05:38.319 I mean, the list goes on. 00:05:38.590 --> 00:05:44.239 So I think before we talk about putting more things in, we really have to be critical about what we take out. 00:05:44.450 --> 00:05:53.519 I was in a classroom of a 42-year veteran teacher in Delaware, and, uh, I think in year three she told someone she liked frogs. 00:05:53.940 --> 00:05:55.120 So you know what happens, right? 00:05:55.120 --> 00:05:56.774 It becomes an episode of Hoarders. 00:05:57.265 --> 00:05:59.955 And, um, we've got to do better than that for kids. 00:06:00.334 --> 00:06:04.915 Um, and y- sometimes it's even about taking things off the walls that are laminated. 00:06:05.285 --> 00:06:07.224 It's about taking posters down. 00:06:07.585 --> 00:06:17.164 It's not about making it so primitive that it doesn't entice kids, but we ask why kids can't focus in the classroom, and then we put tons of stuff around them to stimulate them. 00:06:17.545 --> 00:06:19.924 So sometimes it's about addition through subtraction. 00:06:20.705 --> 00:06:29.315 Uh, but I also do think that there's some addition, um, when it comes to, um, you know, writable spaces. 00:06:29.725 --> 00:06:35.955 I mean, if anybody's got a Lowe's or a Home Depot, they can create a 4x8 writable space for, like, 12 bucks. 00:06:35.955 --> 00:06:43.955 So if you weren't gonna do anything else in your classroom, how could you two-fold, three-fold, four-fold the writable spaces that are available to kids? 00:06:43.955 --> 00:06:47.835 'Cause when kids start putting their ideas on the wall, it actually helps teach other kids. 00:06:48.344 --> 00:06:50.844 And so it just multiplies upon itself. 00:06:51.934 --> 00:06:55.565 And why are those writable spaces that impactful? 00:06:57.475 --> 00:07:00.254 Well, you know, we give lip service a lot of times to student voice. 00:07:00.714 --> 00:07:08.185 And, uh, you know, when student voice through words are on walls, uh, we're validating and celebrating what kids really believe. 00:07:08.825 --> 00:07:11.185 Um, you know, it's one thing to put it in a Google Doc. 00:07:11.624 --> 00:07:15.705 It's the next thing to put it up for the public to see it and to live with that. 00:07:15.815 --> 00:07:17.304 And so that's a big part. 00:07:17.904 --> 00:07:29.374 And one of the things we stress in our book is that, um, classrooms need to become more of a showplace, where you're really looking at the concept of process as opposed to final product. 00:07:29.374 --> 00:07:39.764 We usually have a lot of bulletin boards with a lot of anchor papers, with a lot of student, uh, 100%s with gold stars on them, but how can we create that writable space that shows learning process? 00:07:40.484 --> 00:07:51.775 Uh, and so we think that's a really, really important, uh, step forward, if you can really go from product to process when you kind of take a walk around the room with your eyes. 00:07:53.215 --> 00:08:05.765 And I've, I've seen some of that myself, and kids are sometimes hesitant to put up works in progress, um, because they, they're not done or they're not good enough or whatever. 00:08:05.935 --> 00:08:16.304 And, you know, I've seen that, that helping empower them to do that, to be okay with that in certain situations really makes a lot of sense. 00:08:16.304 --> 00:08:22.114 Can you talk about some of those times, especially where the process is valuable and should be shared? 00:08:22.855 --> 00:08:26.185 Yeah, I was a high school English teacher, so value the writing process. 00:08:26.185 --> 00:08:27.125 We'll start right there. 00:08:27.125 --> 00:08:33.745 And being able to let kids know that draft one and draft two, um, don't even come close to draft 50, right? 00:08:33.745 --> 00:08:35.075 And so that piece. 00:08:35.564 --> 00:08:39.414 Um, we also don't want the same kids making the same mistakes. 00:08:39.444 --> 00:08:43.375 Like, if kids can help each other not make the same mistakes, that's an important piece. 00:08:44.075 --> 00:08:52.564 And then, you know, uh, again, uh, can we keep folks from, uh, really despising failure, if you want to call it that. 00:08:52.564 --> 00:08:59.225 Like, to really believe that life is really in beta Um, is a pretty cool idea if we can get that instilled in kids. 00:08:59.225 --> 00:09:01.255 And I can tell you, teachers still struggle with that too. 00:09:01.775 --> 00:09:19.795 We've been asking a lot of teachers to share into the open education resource marketplace, and I hear from teachers, "Eh, my stuff's not that good. I don't know. Why would someone want my work?" H- you know, uh, at the same time, we know bits and pieces of ideas actually spark fresh ideas for other folks. 00:09:19.795 --> 00:09:21.904 And so I- it's all of those things combined. 00:09:22.404 --> 00:09:23.805 Yeah, absolutely. 00:09:23.854 --> 00:09:32.225 You know, one of the things that I saw in a math classroom this year was a, a math class that was, uh, for students who were struggling and weren't on grade level. 00:09:32.664 --> 00:09:41.254 And we saw incredible gains in their confidence and ability, uh, from being in that class, and had huge growth, and it was very exciting to see. 00:09:41.905 --> 00:09:51.164 But one of the things that I found totally fascinating was that the students did all of their work on a whiteboard. 00:09:51.725 --> 00:09:54.045 Every single day, all of it was done on a whiteboard. 00:09:54.495 --> 00:10:02.594 And at first I thought, "Well, how do the kids ever record what they've learned? How do they ever, like, put that down and know that they've actually learned it?" 00:10:02.624 --> 00:10:20.444 And through talking with the teacher, I f- I learned that they have a little folder where they write down what they learned that day in this separate folder, but they look at that folder only briefly at the beginning of class and at the end of class, and in the middle to do a little assessment to see how they're doing on their specific learning target. 00:10:21.005 --> 00:10:23.355 But the rest of the time, everything is on this whiteboard. 00:10:23.775 --> 00:10:34.264 And I thought about how powerful it is for those kids to erase their mistakes very easily, and to erase their successes very easily as well. 00:10:34.654 --> 00:10:39.724 And to realize that i- on a whiteboard, they're both the same thing. 00:10:40.135 --> 00:10:44.775 They're writing on a whiteboard, and it's gone as soon as you rub a cloth over it. 00:10:44.885 --> 00:10:50.435 And that, to me, was a powerful example of how that can really change a classroom. 00:10:50.484 --> 00:10:55.724 And she never made copies, she never had, um, worksheets. 00:10:56.094 --> 00:10:59.014 It was always this whiteboard. 00:10:59.054 --> 00:11:08.444 And the gains of those kids, that's not the only thing she did, obviously, but that idea that it's not permanent and we're gonna move on, it was really powerful. 00:11:09.334 --> 00:11:09.724 Yeah. 00:11:09.775 --> 00:11:11.075 I, I, I love that idea. 00:11:11.075 --> 00:11:16.394 And just, uh, e- yeah, each of those pieces, that n- even your successes aren't permanent, right? 00:11:16.394 --> 00:11:16.485 Yeah. 00:11:16.534 --> 00:11:17.745 Like, we're moving on. 00:11:17.935 --> 00:11:26.775 Uh, you know, we hear sports stars say all the time, like, "Hey, we're gonna celebrate this one tonight, and then tomorrow we're gonna get back after it." And so I don't think it's any different. 00:11:26.825 --> 00:11:33.614 And, you know, ex- you know, I think about math also, and, you know, I think we have to teach kids that hard work is fun. 00:11:34.405 --> 00:11:37.414 Sometimes learning isn't fun, but hard work is fun. 00:11:38.004 --> 00:11:40.405 And, um, there's a difference there. 00:11:40.504 --> 00:11:44.655 It's semantics in some way, but the other part is we always tell kids, "Learning's fun. Learning's fun." 00:11:44.655 --> 00:11:48.314 Kids are like, "No, it's not. It's hard work." So learning's hard work. 00:11:48.465 --> 00:11:49.224 Hard work is fun. 00:11:49.724 --> 00:11:51.534 Uh, and so we've gotta break that down. 00:11:51.979 --> 00:11:53.089 Yeah, absolutely. 00:11:53.510 --> 00:12:01.620 Um, you know, one of the things that, that I like about this approach is that we're talking about really simple things that any school can do right now. 00:12:01.800 --> 00:12:14.410 And, you know, a $12 purchase is not gonna break the bank, and you can also just take a little, uh, paper page protector and put a white piece of paper in there and have something like that. 00:12:14.850 --> 00:12:22.369 Let's talk a little bit to the next level of what other kinds of things can we do to change our learning spaces. 00:12:22.450 --> 00:12:26.430 We've talked about taking things out, addition through subtraction, writable spaces. 00:12:27.090 --> 00:12:27.779 What else can we do? 00:12:29.229 --> 00:12:36.810 Yeah, I think the book does a nice job of, uh, putting hacks in a few different ways, so if you want to put those in buckets, one is about collaboration. 00:12:37.869 --> 00:12:49.040 And one of the things we do there is being v- uh, very purposeful about seating arrangement, that there are times where you want folks to be in stools so they're leaning forward into a conversation. 00:12:49.470 --> 00:12:53.009 There's times when you want folks sitting back so they're in a more reflective stance. 00:12:53.540 --> 00:13:00.020 And I think, uh, really thinking about the purpose of what you want for the different places in your classroom. 00:13:00.509 --> 00:13:02.640 Uh, oftentimes we don't have a chance to think about that. 00:13:02.640 --> 00:13:09.979 We may say, "Oh, there's a station over there. There's a station over here." But being really, um, thoughtful about that, uh, makes a difference. 00:13:10.009 --> 00:13:15.810 Um, there's a school district in Virginia that says that any space they redesign has three different types of seating in it. 00:13:16.999 --> 00:13:26.999 They don't dictate what the type of seating are, but they say, "Hey, that's the amount of variance you need to really feel like something's different." So I would encourage teachers to think like that. 00:13:27.350 --> 00:13:29.270 Uh, is it okay for kids to sit on the floor? 00:13:29.609 --> 00:13:31.410 Is that, does that promote collaboration? 00:13:31.780 --> 00:13:35.020 Do we have kids sitting around a table that's a writable surface? 00:13:35.100 --> 00:13:41.460 Uh, can we have kids standing up against... Whatever that looks like, um, there's a lot of easy hacks that go along with that. 00:13:42.160 --> 00:13:44.950 And then the other piece is hacks around creation. 00:13:44.950 --> 00:13:50.280 So if I was thinking about the purpose of my classroom, it would be about collaboration and creation. 00:13:50.960 --> 00:14:06.389 And I think that, um, too often the purpose becomes how do we get kids more excited or how do we keep them more engaged or less distracted, but I think you have to go to that second level of saying this is about collaboration and creation. 00:14:06.389 --> 00:14:11.309 And I think in the creation sense, you're talking about how do you put prototyping materials in the room. 00:14:11.760 --> 00:14:21.240 How do you put up pilot cardboard in a way, how do you create studio space where kids can work on things and truly create and step back and come back to it the next day? 00:14:21.570 --> 00:14:26.279 Uh, and in the book we describe some places, uh, ways to do that, as well as a lot of pictures. 00:14:26.579 --> 00:14:41.730 Um, it's a very, very, um, design-rich and picture-rich book, which I think, you know, uh, none of us really have that time to sit down with a 120-page book of that's all text, and so, uh, we tried to help with that as well. 00:14:42.439 --> 00:14:49.035 And, you know, I don't have the skills to You know, I can never get feng shui in my house- Yeah 00:14:49.035 --> 00:14:53.105 or my s- bedroom or my school office or classroom or anything like that. 00:14:53.574 --> 00:14:58.635 So I don't have the aesthetic awareness to be able to make some of those decisions. 00:14:59.045 --> 00:15:00.814 What do I do in that situation? 00:15:01.774 --> 00:15:02.215 Yeah. 00:15:02.244 --> 00:15:05.364 And you know, we talk about, uh, building a designer's mindset. 00:15:05.364 --> 00:15:07.524 I think that's an important piece. 00:15:07.975 --> 00:15:09.485 And we have to do a couple things. 00:15:09.485 --> 00:15:14.975 We have to get folks, uh, either seeing other spaces virtually or physically in those spaces. 00:15:15.475 --> 00:15:22.535 Uh, too many teachers exist in two schools a year, the one where they teach and the one where their kids go to school, and that's a piece of the process. 00:15:22.535 --> 00:15:28.084 If you wanna be a designer, uh, you've gotta either go look at classrooms or look at them virtually. 00:15:28.314 --> 00:15:45.604 Um, and I think that one of the things I'll add to this, uh, podcast here will be a, a big array of photos of things that people have tried, and I think that'll be a nice value add for folks to be able to say like, "Hey, here's 50 pictures. I'm bound to be able to grab some idea here that I can bring back." 00:15:46.224 --> 00:15:50.604 And you know, the other piece is, um, a lot of learning space design isn't scalable. 00:15:51.015 --> 00:15:52.445 It really is customizable. 00:15:52.804 --> 00:15:57.225 Um, every variable matters, and no variable's the same in any classroom. 00:15:57.225 --> 00:16:06.164 And so we want folks to feel like designers, have a sense of what design is, and then be able to bring that back in a real authentic way into their space. 00:16:07.045 --> 00:16:07.734 Very cool. 00:16:07.914 --> 00:16:18.984 Adding those photos, uh, getting those photos as part of the All Access Pass will be very awesome, and just being able to see from your experience what you've been able to, to capture will be good. 00:16:19.424 --> 00:16:25.655 As we're thinking about these things, what questions should we be asking ourselves, um, about our current spaces? 00:16:25.795 --> 00:16:29.035 You know, I'm in a f- 40, 30, 30 year... No. 00:16:29.215 --> 00:16:39.395 Yeah, 30-year-old building right now, and um, we just had a brand-new beautiful high school built right next to us, and, you know, the envy is, is pretty high, I'm not gonna lie. 00:16:39.395 --> 00:16:46.015 'Cause that's a beautiful building with a beautiful view of the ocean, and we don't, we hardly have any windows. 00:16:46.085 --> 00:17:04.934 And so my assistant principal, who's very insightful, has a, um, a way of looking at that where he says, "The good news is we're in an old building, so we can do whatever we want, and we can repaint walls, and we can, you know, do different things." So what kinds of questions should we be asking about redesigning our spaces? 00:17:05.555 --> 00:17:06.154 Yeah. 00:17:06.184 --> 00:17:11.645 I, you know, the first one might surprise you, but, um, how can you use your hallways as learning spaces? 00:17:11.725 --> 00:17:18.124 Um, I told teachers the other day that, you know, maybe they should just annex the hallway, uh, and take on piece of that. 00:17:18.154 --> 00:17:23.025 Uh, I was at a school in Alabama that had a maker station out there in the hallway. 00:17:23.025 --> 00:17:25.294 I've seen, you know, Lego boards in the hallway. 00:17:25.385 --> 00:17:31.225 So the first and foremost is that's a lot of square feet to not be used for learning, so how can we leverage that? 00:17:32.124 --> 00:17:34.294 You know, the second piece is about sound for me. 00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:42.130 Um, you know, some folks say 50% of all things that are said in class, either by students or a teacher, are lost because of the acoustics. 00:17:42.889 --> 00:18:02.419 And there's some things we can do there as we soften the room with softer seating, uh, and when we're thoughtful about where we're standing in the room, and when we're thoughtful about, um, just some of the things that make ambient noise in the room, things like refrigerators, things like, you know, we can- can't always impact HVAC and that sort of thing, but being at least thoughtful about that. 00:18:02.870 --> 00:18:06.179 And some of the, um, you know, amplification systems. 00:18:06.179 --> 00:18:16.989 You know, if you were gonna say, "Hey, you know, it's really loud in here. We really do need a speaker where a teacher can be heard at a different level." Uh, things like that, and then also, uh, just the clutter. 00:18:17.359 --> 00:18:21.660 Um, you know, what 10 things could you remove next year that wouldn't impact learning? 00:18:22.140 --> 00:18:27.329 Um, those types of questions go a long way to making people, uh, think different. 00:18:27.850 --> 00:18:38.460 And then, uh, the question that always comes up for me is, "I've got 28 desks in my room. My principal won't let me get rid of them. What do I do?" Uh, you know, they don't have another place to put them. 00:18:38.879 --> 00:18:43.519 Um, I encourage folks to ask their parents, "Does anybody have a storage unit?" 00:18:43.979 --> 00:18:47.830 Uh, you know, storage units in the United States, what, an $8 billion industry? 00:18:48.089 --> 00:18:49.669 Someone's bound to have some space. 00:18:50.059 --> 00:18:53.860 Uh, so take those out, uh, put some six-foot tables in. 00:18:54.339 --> 00:18:59.229 Uh, go to Walmart and buy some six-foot tables, and just see if it changes things. 00:18:59.229 --> 00:19:00.479 And if you don't like it, bring them back. 00:19:00.479 --> 00:19:01.010 It's fine. 00:19:01.419 --> 00:19:08.919 Um, and one of the things that we can't get caught in the trap of is like, "Here, well, here's where we were last year, and then we're gonna redesign it, and it's done." 00:19:09.559 --> 00:19:11.780 Um, learning spaces can't be done. 00:19:12.479 --> 00:19:14.559 They can be ready for next year. 00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:22.369 I say... To some people I said, "Make an alpha." But if you don't have a next four versions of your room, you're just as bad as when you started. 00:19:22.439 --> 00:19:24.250 So you can't go from one to two. 00:19:24.699 --> 00:19:28.510 You have to go to one to two, and then have a three, a four, a five, and a 10 in the same school year. 00:19:29.949 --> 00:19:34.669 And what does... Where does consistency come into that? 00:19:35.100 --> 00:19:57.999 Um, we talk a lot about, in education, about how consistency is important, and I tried to find quotes about consistency, and all I found were, "Consistency is a horrible thing that you should never worry about." And so- ... go look up brainyquote.com and, uh, and, and try finding something good about consistency, but that's what we crave in schools. 00:19:58.629 --> 00:19:58.879 Yeah. 00:19:58.909 --> 00:20:04.239 How about consistent procedures and norms on how we operate in learning? 00:20:04.499 --> 00:20:05.279 I'm okay with that. 00:20:05.680 --> 00:20:23.560 But the idea that kids need the same looking type of space to exist in, whether they're in a social studies class or a math class or an art class, um, I don't know, I think that's folly, and it doesn't give justice to the fact that that subject in and of itself lends itself to a different type of space. 00:20:23.560 --> 00:20:26.609 And so, um, I, I'm, I'm for consistency. 00:20:26.609 --> 00:20:28.269 I worked in a middle school for a long time. 00:20:28.269 --> 00:20:28.939 I get it, right? 00:20:28.939 --> 00:20:34.475 Like, norms matter- But it doesn't have to be about, um, the way we stack kids in a classroom. 00:20:36.154 --> 00:20:56.914 Um, now, if we take this to, to another level and talk about designing, um, a school from the ground up, what, what would you say n- needs to stay the same as what we're currently doing, and what do we need to absolutely change if we're starting fresh? 00:20:59.415 --> 00:21:00.775 Um, wow. 00:21:00.775 --> 00:21:01.705 And that's, yeah. 00:21:01.864 --> 00:21:06.125 I, it, I think access to the outdoors came up right away, which is kind of interesting. 00:21:06.154 --> 00:21:16.895 I love that classrooms and, you know, some environments lend itself better than others, but love that classrooms have exit doors, that kids can go outside and continue their learning beyond the school walls. 00:21:16.895 --> 00:21:18.364 I think it sends a powerful message. 00:21:19.134 --> 00:21:22.675 We also know that natural light does a lot, and so whatever we can do. 00:21:22.675 --> 00:21:27.104 And one of the beautiful things about LEED-certified buildings is the natural light that's in those buildings. 00:21:27.544 --> 00:21:35.385 And, um, I think that's a big deal, and we've had way, way too many stories of folks not bringing quality water to kids, right? 00:21:35.385 --> 00:21:38.615 Like, let's, let's get that locked down before we get too far down. 00:21:38.615 --> 00:21:42.235 Like, we can't have lead pipes, uh, in, in our new buildings. 00:21:42.235 --> 00:21:50.694 And so, um, and then the other thing is common spaces, open learning spaces where kids can go and do project work. 00:21:51.145 --> 00:21:58.264 Uh, audio visual studios where kids can take green screens and, you know, their cameras and make, um, you know, create. 00:21:58.755 --> 00:22:01.244 I think those should be a big part of the process as well. 00:22:01.314 --> 00:22:02.464 So there's a few things. 00:22:03.124 --> 00:22:03.444 Okay. 00:22:03.574 --> 00:22:15.745 I think that's a, that's a good start to get us thinking, and some of us may be able to do some of those things with what we currently have, which is why I asked that question, to be able to say, "If we could design from the ground up, what would we change?" 00:22:15.805 --> 00:22:19.135 But really, what can you do with your current situation? 00:22:19.514 --> 00:22:27.215 So in, let's say I'm a principal and I've got a classroom that is not being utilized fully this year. 00:22:27.735 --> 00:22:33.154 Where would you suggest I start to make that a usable space for next year? 00:22:33.944 --> 00:22:34.275 Yeah. 00:22:34.305 --> 00:22:37.144 First, I would get a group of students in that room. 00:22:37.605 --> 00:22:42.245 Uh, we do such a poor job in education of designing for kids and not with kids. 00:22:42.874 --> 00:22:51.705 Um, I would take a group of students in there and begin to vision, um... And I would... We oftentimes solve for problems that really aren't kid problems. 00:22:51.705 --> 00:22:55.144 And so, how can we get kids in there and start asking them the right questions? 00:22:55.535 --> 00:22:58.324 Like, you know, "What makes you comfortable learning? 00:22:58.885 --> 00:23:02.044 Um, what, or do things differ in the morning and the afternoon? 00:23:02.595 --> 00:23:05.595 Um, how do you hear best?" You know? 00:23:05.595 --> 00:23:11.605 "What about your fellow students?" So asking students a ton of those questions, uh, is a big, is a part of that. 00:23:11.894 --> 00:23:18.185 Um, the second part is if you're gonna buy some things and you've gotten to that part, and I'm kind of jumping ahead, don't buy it all at once. 00:23:18.674 --> 00:23:22.495 Uh, we recommend, like, a 30/40/30 process. 00:23:22.825 --> 00:23:27.344 So buy 30% of maybe what you think could be right based on student feedback. 00:23:27.965 --> 00:23:29.674 Let students start to interact with that. 00:23:30.260 --> 00:23:32.180 Uh, be a sociologist of the room. 00:23:32.509 --> 00:23:36.810 Learn what really works, learn what doesn't, and then buy the next 40%. 00:23:37.529 --> 00:23:40.290 And then you'll have almost the mothership of everything in there. 00:23:40.649 --> 00:23:46.980 And then, you know, six months, a year later, the next new thing's gonna come out, or something that can really supplement what you're doing. 00:23:47.640 --> 00:23:49.800 Then you have a little bit of cash in the back to do that. 00:23:49.880 --> 00:24:03.850 I think sometimes there's such an urgency to say, "We have this pool of money, we need to spend it all today." And I love the idea of when universities don't put sidewalks in, and they let kids walk wherever, and then wherever they wear things down, they put sidewalks. 00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:05.109 Uh, same sort of theory. 00:24:05.560 --> 00:24:12.100 Uh, I turn that over to kids, and, um, I, I think it, it's a, it's a magical experience when you're able to pull it off. 00:24:12.130 --> 00:24:21.929 We were able to do that in the Affton School District with six or seven spaces, uh, over the last two years, which was kind of the genesis of the book, was that we were really doing the stuff. 00:24:22.209 --> 00:24:27.440 We were really making a difference, and we were really seeing cultures change, and we wanted to make sure we shared that with everyone. 00:24:28.089 --> 00:24:28.310 Yeah. 00:24:28.499 --> 00:24:37.549 We did something similar with that at our school with those treadmill desks that I was talking about, and with the standing desks, and with the, um, wobbly stool things. 00:24:38.019 --> 00:24:47.110 And what we did essentially was we got a bunch first and put them in different spaces, saw that kids were enjoying them, and then, um, bought some more. 00:24:47.299 --> 00:24:55.070 And then we still have an opportunity to buy some more for next year so that we can, you know, increase the, the different things that are in there. 00:24:55.640 --> 00:25:07.250 One of the, uh, frustrations that we've had is that people, um, uh, mistakenly believe that because it's there, then the kids have free access to it whenever and however. 00:25:07.670 --> 00:25:15.369 Can you talk a little bit about procedures and systems put in place to help teachers know how to deal with those things? 00:25:16.750 --> 00:25:17.140 Yeah. 00:25:17.140 --> 00:25:21.820 Learning spaces are not going to help teachers that have poor classroom management. 00:25:21.990 --> 00:25:30.839 Just like if you bring one-to-one into a school, uh, both of those things amplify excellent teaching and expose mediocre teaching. 00:25:30.950 --> 00:25:41.670 And so, um, there is a fear, um, with like, "Is this going to, you know, break the way I've done things before?" Uh, but I, you know, I think kids are pretty respectful. 00:25:41.670 --> 00:25:54.750 We dropped a bunch of high school kids off in a library that was brand new with couches and wobbly stools, and, and we... You know, sure, we had to remind kids, but no different than we did with the wooden chairs in the library about don't lean back in them. 00:25:55.190 --> 00:25:59.950 Um, we really d- don't see a huge amount of breakage or a huge amount of abuse. 00:26:00.589 --> 00:26:03.750 But, you know, I think teachers that can just be honest with their students. 00:26:04.239 --> 00:26:05.399 And we're not doing that today. 00:26:05.470 --> 00:26:09.450 Just like we do with our computers where we say close the lids, you know, whatever that is. 00:26:09.780 --> 00:26:15.589 We're not saying that 24 hours of it being there means 24-hour access, and just being honest about that's important. 00:26:17.440 --> 00:26:17.709 Yeah. 00:26:17.780 --> 00:26:27.355 It, you know, I've learned a ton from this conversation with you, and, um- One of the things that you said was getting kids to talk about their vision of the space. 00:26:27.355 --> 00:26:36.625 And, you know, part of this summit is Amy Fast talking about how she got all of her students at her school to give feedback on how they felt about school. 00:26:36.655 --> 00:26:42.584 And using those same strategies that she talks about I think would be really good for this, for the spaces. 00:26:42.674 --> 00:26:52.734 Um, what parting piece of advice do you have for, um, principals who want to take this to the next level in addition to buying your book? 00:26:52.824 --> 00:26:54.414 'Cause that's, that's a given. 00:26:54.414 --> 00:26:55.404 There's a link down below. 00:26:55.404 --> 00:26:56.665 You gotta make sure you get that. 00:26:59.055 --> 00:27:03.505 I, I think, um, not going slow but with a sense of urgency. 00:27:03.505 --> 00:27:07.605 Oftentimes we hear, "Go slow, go slow, go slow." I think there has to be a sense of urgency. 00:27:07.605 --> 00:27:13.165 I think that you need to break the mental model of what folks think about school. 00:27:13.605 --> 00:27:19.114 And so that's one space in your school, if that's a library, if that's an old computer lab, if it's an unused classroom. 00:27:19.474 --> 00:27:21.514 Really go in there and be disruptive. 00:27:21.564 --> 00:27:23.814 Make it very different. 00:27:24.294 --> 00:27:31.865 Uh, and the rest of your classrooms won't be that different, but that's okay because it... Just like a rubber band, you've gotta stretch people out pretty far to get them to move. 00:27:32.465 --> 00:27:34.314 And so I would encourage principals to do that. 00:27:34.855 --> 00:27:39.645 And the second would be, um, to say yes a lot. 00:27:40.015 --> 00:27:50.185 Uh, there'll be a lot of teacher ideas, a lot of small teacher ideas along the way that if you can say yes to during that process, that you're gonna have all these little micro changes happening too. 00:27:50.215 --> 00:27:59.655 So just remember that culture of yes, saying yes, and, um, just kind of leaning into being a, the lever that it is, and let it be disruptive for your school. 00:28:00.844 --> 00:28:01.244 Awesome. 00:28:01.244 --> 00:28:02.624 That's, that's great advice. 00:28:02.655 --> 00:28:07.344 Thank you so much for your time, Bob, and it's been awesome talking to you, as it always is. 00:28:07.374 --> 00:28:09.414 You're incredible, so thank you very much. 00:28:09.874 --> 00:28:10.515 Thanks, Jethro. 00:28:10.515 --> 00:28:13.304 It's been great, and, uh, have a great vacation the rest of the summer. 00:28:14.115 --> 00:28:14.535 Thank you.