WEBVTT 00:00:03.000 --> 00:00:05.880 Matt Abrahams: Successful negotiation is not about winning. 00:00:06.150 --> 00:00:09.150 It's about building long-term relationships. 00:00:09.629 --> 00:00:10.980 My name is Matt Abrahams. 00:00:11.070 --> 00:00:14.280 I teach Strategic Communication at Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:14.489 --> 00:00:17.640 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:18.180 --> 00:00:21.060 Today I look forward to speaking with my friend Stan Christensen. 00:00:21.270 --> 00:00:25.290 Stan is a professional negotiator who has both practiced and taught negotiation 00:00:25.290 --> 00:00:29.700 for his entire career, and he teaches a very popular Stanford negotiation course. 00:00:29.924 --> 00:00:33.405 Additionally, Stan is the host of the very informative All 00:00:33.405 --> 00:00:35.565 Things Negotiation podcast. 00:00:36.285 --> 00:00:37.004 Well, welcome Stan. 00:00:37.004 --> 00:00:39.885 I thoroughly enjoyed being on your show and I'm glad you're here. 00:00:39.885 --> 00:00:40.635 Thanks for being here. 00:00:40.724 --> 00:00:41.474 Stan Christensen: Thanks for inviting me. 00:00:41.565 --> 00:00:42.045 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:00:42.045 --> 00:00:42.795 Shall we get started? 00:00:42.855 --> 00:00:43.425 Stan Christensen: We should do it. 00:00:43.545 --> 00:00:44.175 Matt Abrahams: Alright. 00:00:44.565 --> 00:00:47.595 If you think about it, we are always negotiating, sometimes 00:00:47.595 --> 00:00:49.635 formally and many times informally. 00:00:49.965 --> 00:00:54.525 How do you define negotiation and what makes for success in a negotiation? 00:00:54.820 --> 00:00:55.629 Stan Christensen: It's a great question. 00:00:55.660 --> 00:00:59.379 I define negotiation as any attempt to persuade or influence 00:00:59.379 --> 00:01:01.180 another party, which is very broad. 00:01:01.420 --> 00:01:04.000 In terms of the second part of your question, how do you define success? 00:01:04.150 --> 00:01:06.759 Most people think of negotiation statically. 00:01:06.820 --> 00:01:08.770 It's you and I, there's a fixed pie. 00:01:09.009 --> 00:01:11.380 We're trying to get more for ourself and less for the other party. 00:01:11.650 --> 00:01:15.775 When in reality, probably 95% of the negotiations you're gonna do are 00:01:15.775 --> 00:01:17.365 gonna be with people you see again. 00:01:17.455 --> 00:01:20.875 So I define success as, are you contributing to the value 00:01:20.875 --> 00:01:22.165 of the long-term relationship? 00:01:22.345 --> 00:01:24.775 Matt Abrahams: Yeah, and I think that's really important because you can do 00:01:24.775 --> 00:01:30.835 some things to better your position in a negotiation that might not be bettering 00:01:30.835 --> 00:01:32.485 your future interaction with the person. 00:01:32.665 --> 00:01:35.960 And so we really need to be thinking about not just what's happening in 00:01:35.960 --> 00:01:37.280 the moment, but its consequences. 00:01:37.280 --> 00:01:40.520 I think about as I was raising my kids, there were lots of things that I chose 00:01:40.520 --> 00:01:44.479 not to really negotiate because I knew we would have future conversations. 00:01:44.479 --> 00:01:46.970 So I think that's an important way to look at negotiation. 00:01:47.399 --> 00:01:51.119 Like me, you teach Stanford students and your students really enjoy your class. 00:01:51.479 --> 00:01:55.139 What are two or three key things you hope your students take away 00:01:55.139 --> 00:01:57.179 from your content on negotiation? 00:01:57.479 --> 00:01:57.570 Stan Christensen: Yeah. 00:01:57.570 --> 00:02:00.210 The first thing is just awareness that they're negotiating all the time. 00:02:00.300 --> 00:02:03.899 So the very first week of class, I have them keep track of the negotiations 00:02:03.899 --> 00:02:04.994 that they engage in throughout the week. 00:02:05.529 --> 00:02:08.320 And it's probably a hundred, if they're honest about it. 00:02:08.530 --> 00:02:12.340 And number two, I try to help them be effective, negotiating in the context 00:02:12.340 --> 00:02:13.630 they're most likely to negotiate in. 00:02:13.630 --> 00:02:17.650 Those tend to be roommates, uh, romantic partners, employers, 00:02:17.650 --> 00:02:19.239 potential employers, parents. 00:02:19.570 --> 00:02:22.299 And so if they come away from the class more confident that they can do 00:02:22.299 --> 00:02:24.190 those things, that's a success for me. 00:02:24.570 --> 00:02:28.050 Matt Abrahams: So it sounds like awareness and confidence in the ability to do it. 00:02:28.050 --> 00:02:29.700 And I like that idea of reflecting. 00:02:29.700 --> 00:02:31.950 You know, we communicate all the time. 00:02:32.070 --> 00:02:35.340 Not all communication is negotiation, although much of it is, taking 00:02:35.340 --> 00:02:37.050 the time to say, what am I doing? 00:02:37.050 --> 00:02:37.950 What do they look like? 00:02:37.950 --> 00:02:40.770 And maybe some of your students identify patterns and you can 00:02:40.770 --> 00:02:44.070 help them better understand what's working and what's not working. 00:02:44.190 --> 00:02:45.510 I think that's really helpful. 00:02:45.815 --> 00:02:49.355 I know one of the things you teach, which I believe personally is really 00:02:49.355 --> 00:02:51.695 important in all communication, but you teach listening. 00:02:51.904 --> 00:02:55.505 Why is listening part of negotiation curriculum and can you share some 00:02:55.505 --> 00:02:59.315 of the best practices you teach your students about listening and 00:02:59.315 --> 00:03:00.755 how it applies to negotiation? 00:03:01.125 --> 00:03:03.524 Stan Christensen: Listening is more than a nice to have. 00:03:03.524 --> 00:03:04.304 It's essential. 00:03:04.515 --> 00:03:08.325 One of the things that I say about listening is you need to think about what 00:03:08.325 --> 00:03:10.575 you're listening for in the negotiation. 00:03:10.725 --> 00:03:14.595 Think about questions you might have that might elicit things that make 00:03:14.595 --> 00:03:16.274 you question some of your assumptions. 00:03:16.454 --> 00:03:17.505 I'll give you a recent example. 00:03:17.565 --> 00:03:20.645 I was visiting a family friend in a retirement community and the 00:03:20.645 --> 00:03:23.489 family wanted to move her from the first floor to the second floor. 00:03:23.730 --> 00:03:25.380 She was resisting tremendously. 00:03:25.560 --> 00:03:27.269 They assumed she didn't like the smaller room. 00:03:27.269 --> 00:03:28.890 They assumed she didn't like the stairs. 00:03:29.130 --> 00:03:31.890 It was really a lot of bickering, and they came in and said, Stan, you know, 00:03:31.890 --> 00:03:32.940 you're a good friend of the family. 00:03:32.940 --> 00:03:34.530 Can you help us with this situation? 00:03:34.739 --> 00:03:38.730 When I asked her, what are the real reasons that you're afraid to move? 00:03:39.075 --> 00:03:41.175 She said, I'm worried that I'm gonna lose my nurse because she's 00:03:41.175 --> 00:03:43.875 the nurse on the first floor and I don't want to change nurses. 00:03:44.145 --> 00:03:47.445 And so I simply said to the director of the facility, what if we had that 00:03:47.445 --> 00:03:51.645 nurse stay with her and have the nurse travel rather than her get someone new? 00:03:51.915 --> 00:03:53.085 And they said, that'd be fine. 00:03:53.085 --> 00:03:53.925 And she said, that'd be fine. 00:03:53.925 --> 00:03:57.135 And so we solved the problem and that was based on listening to her real concerns. 00:03:57.540 --> 00:04:00.930 Matt Abrahams: What I find so interesting about what you just said is listening is 00:04:00.930 --> 00:04:03.070 equipping you to ask the right questions. 00:04:03.410 --> 00:04:06.750 And I don't often think of negotiation as question asking. 00:04:06.930 --> 00:04:08.520 I think of it as asserting. 00:04:08.880 --> 00:04:13.770 Talk to me about how questioning inquiry, thinking about the other person, 00:04:13.770 --> 00:04:15.360 plays out when you're negotiating. 00:04:15.750 --> 00:04:17.789 Stan Christensen: Well, you know, we have classes in public speaking. 00:04:17.860 --> 00:04:20.670 What we probably should do is have a class in public listening, because 00:04:20.670 --> 00:04:23.490 listening is probably, should be more than half of the conversation. 00:04:23.700 --> 00:04:28.140 If you listen, it's not just to be a moral person or be a friendly person, 00:04:28.349 --> 00:04:32.760 it's because it's gonna equip you to come up with solutions that expand 00:04:32.760 --> 00:04:34.230 the pie, as we talked about before. 00:04:34.500 --> 00:04:38.940 And so it's a persuasive element to listen as opposed to a nice to have. 00:04:39.284 --> 00:04:41.385 Matt Abrahams: I really think that's important for everybody to think 00:04:41.385 --> 00:04:42.945 about when it comes to negotiation. 00:04:43.034 --> 00:04:48.284 I tend to look at negotiation as something where I want to win or have my point 00:04:48.284 --> 00:04:50.775 of view dominate in that conversation. 00:04:51.224 --> 00:04:53.805 And what I'm hearing you say is before you negotiate, you actually 00:04:53.805 --> 00:04:56.945 have to listen and then ask questions to best understand what's important. 00:04:56.945 --> 00:04:59.735 And the example you gave, I wouldn't have thought that the thing that was 00:04:59.735 --> 00:05:02.645 preventing that move was something external to the person who was 00:05:02.645 --> 00:05:04.025 having to be moved, but it was. 00:05:04.025 --> 00:05:07.685 And so by asking the questions, I guess it helps you focus in on 00:05:07.685 --> 00:05:09.034 where you have that negotiation. 00:05:09.305 --> 00:05:09.455 Stan Christensen: Yeah. 00:05:09.455 --> 00:05:11.855 A lot of my students show up to my class hoping they're gonna learn 00:05:11.855 --> 00:05:15.185 how to win, and a lot of them sign up because it's called negotiation. 00:05:15.185 --> 00:05:16.085 That sounds sexy. 00:05:16.225 --> 00:05:18.025 What I teach them is relationship management. 00:05:18.025 --> 00:05:21.205 Now, if I called the class, not negotiation, but relationship management, 00:05:21.355 --> 00:05:22.735 I think I get a lot fewer kids. 00:05:22.795 --> 00:05:25.465 So I use a little bit of a smoke screen there and teach relationship management. 00:05:25.885 --> 00:05:28.465 Matt Abrahams: One of the big ways we manage relationships is through 00:05:28.465 --> 00:05:31.375 the negotiation, the influence that we have, but you have to really 00:05:31.375 --> 00:05:34.225 understand who you're talking to and what's important to them. 00:05:34.465 --> 00:05:39.925 My wife and I will often have negotiations, when in fact we probably 00:05:39.925 --> 00:05:42.865 didn't need to, because we didn't appreciate each other's perspective. 00:05:42.865 --> 00:05:46.294 The example I always give is if we wanna go out to dinner, and she says, 00:05:46.294 --> 00:05:47.585 Hey, let's go out to Mexican food. 00:05:47.585 --> 00:05:49.115 And I say, no, let's do Italian food. 00:05:49.295 --> 00:05:50.615 That could be a negotiation. 00:05:50.765 --> 00:05:54.365 But when we ask each other how important is it, for me it's not that important. 00:05:54.365 --> 00:05:55.685 And for her it's very important. 00:05:55.865 --> 00:05:58.565 Then we don't have to, and that helps us manage our relationship. 00:05:58.775 --> 00:06:02.045 So I like this idea of listening and inquiry, but it does bring 00:06:02.045 --> 00:06:05.855 up the question though, often in negotiation, emotion plays out. 00:06:06.185 --> 00:06:08.945 You're very passionate about the topic you're advocating for. 00:06:08.945 --> 00:06:11.525 You might get angry because somebody isn't going along. 00:06:11.705 --> 00:06:14.675 How do you deal with emotion in these kind of situations? 00:06:15.210 --> 00:06:16.740 Stan Christensen: It's a great and common question. 00:06:16.770 --> 00:06:19.260 The first piece is to be aware of your emotions. 00:06:19.530 --> 00:06:21.450 Let's just take one of the examples you brought up, anger. 00:06:21.630 --> 00:06:26.370 Have you ever been in an argument with your wife towards the end of the day 00:06:26.460 --> 00:06:29.670 where you might be going to bed angry, but you still try to work it out? 00:06:29.670 --> 00:06:30.930 Has that ever happened to you in your marriage? 00:06:31.020 --> 00:06:33.450 Matt Abrahams: I wish I could say no, but it, yes, it does happen. 00:06:33.724 --> 00:06:36.065 Stan Christensen: And one of the pieces of advice you hear, I heard before I 00:06:36.065 --> 00:06:37.594 got married, is never go to bed angry. 00:06:37.775 --> 00:06:39.965 You couldn't give people worse marital advice. 00:06:40.115 --> 00:06:43.745 Often the best thing to do if you're feeling angry is to pause, and so you 00:06:43.745 --> 00:06:46.685 know when cooler heads prevail, maybe the next morning after a good night's sleep. 00:06:46.685 --> 00:06:50.015 And so when you're feeling emotionally hijacked, maybe a little bit out of 00:06:50.015 --> 00:06:54.215 control, the sophisticated negotiator hits the pause button and returns 00:06:54.215 --> 00:06:55.565 when cooler heads can prevail. 00:06:56.055 --> 00:06:56.085 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:06:56.095 --> 00:06:58.575 So I think it's first recognizing the emotion and then giving 00:06:58.575 --> 00:07:01.905 yourself permission to take that pause and find perhaps an outlet. 00:07:01.905 --> 00:07:04.635 Write it down, talk to somebody about it, and then come back to it. 00:07:04.905 --> 00:07:06.525 Does emotion though play a role? 00:07:06.525 --> 00:07:09.645 I can imagine that if I bring a level of intensity, passion, 00:07:09.645 --> 00:07:13.125 it could help me actually show that this is important to me. 00:07:13.275 --> 00:07:13.425 Stan Christensen: Yeah. 00:07:13.425 --> 00:07:15.165 You don't wanna think about emotion tactically. 00:07:15.165 --> 00:07:17.895 What you wanna do is be as genuine and be yourself. 00:07:18.280 --> 00:07:21.640 People that use tactics and try to act like they're upset when they're not upset, 00:07:21.849 --> 00:07:23.740 we tend not to be very good at lying 00:07:23.740 --> 00:07:24.403 about our emotions. 00:07:24.403 --> 00:07:25.510 And so what I think 00:07:25.510 --> 00:07:26.950 Stan Christensen: you wanna do is be emotionally centered. 00:07:27.130 --> 00:07:30.190 What I often recommend to people is before you enter a important 00:07:30.190 --> 00:07:33.880 negotiation, go and just wherever the quiet place is for you, and pause 00:07:34.150 --> 00:07:35.740 and think about what am I feeling? 00:07:35.919 --> 00:07:36.880 What am I bringing? 00:07:36.880 --> 00:07:38.380 Do I need to shift gears in my emotion? 00:07:39.000 --> 00:07:43.140 Way too many people try to plow through negative emotions, whether they're hurt 00:07:43.200 --> 00:07:46.110 or sad or angry, or feeling melancholy. 00:07:46.170 --> 00:07:48.000 They just approach it and try to drive in. 00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:50.219 It's just like if you had too much to drink, you probably shouldn't 00:07:50.219 --> 00:07:51.360 jump in that car and drive. 00:07:51.420 --> 00:07:53.969 You shouldn't be an emotional drunk driver in negotiation. 00:07:54.290 --> 00:07:56.570 Matt Abrahams: That's a really appropriate metaphor that I think 00:07:56.570 --> 00:08:00.860 can really help us remind ourselves that we need to be centered. 00:08:00.860 --> 00:08:05.120 And if we are in a place that's not going to lead to, not just the negotiation, 00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:08.360 but the future relationship the way we want it to, we need to address it. 00:08:08.870 --> 00:08:13.535 I am curious about how we show up in terms of our presence, what we 00:08:13.535 --> 00:08:15.230 do with our body and our voice. 00:08:15.410 --> 00:08:18.320 Does this have implications for negotiation? 00:08:18.320 --> 00:08:19.430 How you physically show up? 00:08:19.705 --> 00:08:20.545 Stan Christensen: It absolutely does. 00:08:20.575 --> 00:08:25.405 A modern topic related to this is distant negotiations, whether it's Zoom or Google 00:08:25.405 --> 00:08:30.295 Meet, and I always recommend to people, if at all possible, meet live and in person 00:08:30.505 --> 00:08:33.085 because those nuances of body language. 00:08:33.385 --> 00:08:34.375 And not only that. 00:08:34.699 --> 00:08:37.760 It's much easier to create small talk if you're live in person. 00:08:38.000 --> 00:08:41.240 I find that when I'm on a Zoom meeting or any type of negotiation, 00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:43.789 it's get down to the business, and so we miss the subtleties. 00:08:43.789 --> 00:08:44.990 We miss the nuance. 00:08:45.319 --> 00:08:47.420 Matt Abrahams: I've heard across several of your answers this notion 00:08:47.420 --> 00:08:50.990 of connection before you do the negotiation, with yourself, your 00:08:50.990 --> 00:08:54.650 emotions, where are you, help regulate that, but then connect with others. 00:08:55.055 --> 00:09:00.709 Given that in a negotiation, you're trying to assert a particular point 00:09:00.709 --> 00:09:04.580 of view or position, how do you balance, Hey, I'm a nice person. 00:09:04.580 --> 00:09:05.690 I want you to like me. 00:09:05.690 --> 00:09:09.410 I want this relationship to continue, but I also need this to get done or 00:09:09.410 --> 00:09:12.110 want this to get done or see this as the right way of doing things. 00:09:12.350 --> 00:09:15.380 I agree connection is important, but how do you thread that needle? 00:09:15.380 --> 00:09:16.670 That's a tough thing I would think. 00:09:16.880 --> 00:09:18.620 Stan Christensen: Number one, I would question the assumption that 00:09:18.620 --> 00:09:20.210 you need to assert in a negotiation. 00:09:20.625 --> 00:09:23.805 If I come to a negotiation with some questions that might change 00:09:23.805 --> 00:09:27.585 some of the assumptions I came with, I might wanna assert or problem 00:09:27.585 --> 00:09:30.675 solve or create options that are different than the thing I came with. 00:09:30.944 --> 00:09:35.564 And so in every negotiation, you are my teacher and I can learn things 00:09:35.564 --> 00:09:39.824 that help us both work together to expand the pie rather than advocating. 00:09:40.095 --> 00:09:43.155 The reason that attorneys often aren't very good at negotiation, and I don't 00:09:43.155 --> 00:09:46.275 wanna overgeneralize, but what are attorneys trained at doing mostly? 00:09:46.320 --> 00:09:48.060 They're advocates for their clients. 00:09:48.180 --> 00:09:50.100 How good are attorneys at joint problem solving? 00:09:50.160 --> 00:09:51.030 Let's roll up our sleeves. 00:09:51.030 --> 00:09:54.570 Let's figure out a structure that works for both sides and rewards the long-term 00:09:54.570 --> 00:09:56.160 relationship, which is, again, our goal. 00:09:56.460 --> 00:09:57.900 Attorneys aren't very good at that. 00:09:58.260 --> 00:09:59.100 Matt Abrahams: Interesting. 00:09:59.310 --> 00:10:01.590 You said something there that I want to double down on. 00:10:01.650 --> 00:10:05.460 We had Michele Gelfand on, Michele teaches at the business school with me. 00:10:05.580 --> 00:10:09.295 She likes to talk about this notion of minding your metaphors. 00:10:09.780 --> 00:10:13.829 The metaphor you approach any communicative act frames how you do it. 00:10:13.829 --> 00:10:17.640 So if I see a negotiation as a battle, I'm going to approach it very differently 00:10:17.850 --> 00:10:20.850 than the metaphor you used, which I really liked, is the person you're 00:10:20.850 --> 00:10:23.610 negotiating with or the people you're negotiating with are your teachers. 00:10:23.819 --> 00:10:27.420 And if they're your teachers, that means one, you're both working to learn, 00:10:27.449 --> 00:10:28.655 they're to teach and you to learn. 00:10:29.275 --> 00:10:31.405 That there's a collaboration that's inherent in that. 00:10:31.435 --> 00:10:33.355 I really like that approach. 00:10:33.595 --> 00:10:37.495 Part of that then is the questions that we bring and ask. 00:10:37.495 --> 00:10:40.525 So I'm wondering, have you found in your own experience, and do you 00:10:40.525 --> 00:10:45.175 teach, I can imagine how I frame the position that I have or the issue 00:10:45.175 --> 00:10:46.765 we're negotiating really matters. 00:10:46.765 --> 00:10:50.065 If I frame it as a question, is that different than framing it as an assertion? 00:10:50.420 --> 00:10:51.950 What does framing mean for this? 00:10:52.130 --> 00:10:54.290 Stan Christensen: So let's think of an example of framing. 00:10:54.350 --> 00:10:57.080 Let's say that I come to you, Matt, and we've had some tension in our 00:10:57.080 --> 00:10:59.750 relationship, and I say, Matt, I'd like to bring up something 00:10:59.750 --> 00:11:00.980 very difficult with you today. 00:11:01.100 --> 00:11:02.030 How does that make you feel? 00:11:02.180 --> 00:11:02.780 Matt Abrahams: Concerned. 00:11:02.780 --> 00:11:03.650 I'm taken aback. 00:11:03.830 --> 00:11:04.640 Stan Christensen: You're defensive. 00:11:04.640 --> 00:11:05.090 Exactly. 00:11:05.090 --> 00:11:06.680 And that's 99% of people. 00:11:06.890 --> 00:11:08.240 Now let's just change the frame a little bit. 00:11:08.495 --> 00:11:11.135 Matt, look, there's something I've been meaning to bring up with you. 00:11:11.135 --> 00:11:12.965 I've had a hard time bringing it up. 00:11:13.085 --> 00:11:16.265 I've sought counsel from some of my friends on how to do it, and I'm 00:11:16.265 --> 00:11:17.615 feeling ambivalent about doing it. 00:11:17.615 --> 00:11:21.185 But we're both teachers of communication and so I'd like to try to do that, 00:11:21.185 --> 00:11:22.715 but I want you to work with me on it. 00:11:22.715 --> 00:11:25.595 Would now be a good time to do that, or should we just set up a formal meeting? 00:11:25.745 --> 00:11:26.405 How do you feel now? 00:11:26.705 --> 00:11:30.215 Matt Abrahams: One, I'm curious and two, much more willing to roll up 00:11:30.215 --> 00:11:31.745 my sleeves and work with you on it. 00:11:31.745 --> 00:11:34.295 So the way you frame that, the position you came from, 00:11:34.535 --> 00:11:36.065 does make a huge difference. 00:11:36.335 --> 00:11:36.755 Stan Christensen: Yeah. 00:11:36.755 --> 00:11:40.775 And so what you want to do with someone is make them feel comfortable, come to them 00:11:40.775 --> 00:11:42.605 thinking, I wanna joint problem solve. 00:11:42.755 --> 00:11:44.975 I wanna figure out how to build the relationship over time. 00:11:45.125 --> 00:11:46.185 Put them at ease. 00:11:46.370 --> 00:11:48.365 And that's one of the key skills in negotiation. 00:11:48.425 --> 00:11:48.725 Matt Abrahams: Yeah. 00:11:48.725 --> 00:11:51.245 So that, that small talk, that connection really does make a 00:11:51.245 --> 00:11:52.835 difference in addition to the framing. 00:11:53.120 --> 00:11:57.439 Are there things that we can do in advance to the negotiation to help? 00:11:57.439 --> 00:12:00.920 I'm a big fan of setting expectations, helping people 00:12:00.920 --> 00:12:02.660 understand what's going to unfold. 00:12:02.839 --> 00:12:05.420 Can we do things in advance and can you give us an example or two? 00:12:05.420 --> 00:12:07.550 So I'll share with you sort of the thing I'm fishing for. 00:12:07.819 --> 00:12:11.810 When I run meetings, I will make sure in my meeting invite, I'm very 00:12:11.810 --> 00:12:14.959 specific about what we can expect, how we're going to go through it. 00:12:14.959 --> 00:12:17.270 So when people show up, they're not surprised. 00:12:17.270 --> 00:12:20.300 Are there things that we can do like that to help with negotiation? 00:12:20.710 --> 00:12:22.750 Stan Christensen: Let's just take your example of having an agenda. 00:12:22.990 --> 00:12:24.250 So I always do the same thing. 00:12:24.490 --> 00:12:25.570 I always start with an agenda. 00:12:25.780 --> 00:12:29.020 Now people can feel that you're being controlling if it's your agenda. 00:12:29.050 --> 00:12:30.640 Let's say it's a two party negotiation. 00:12:31.000 --> 00:12:34.360 So what I always say is, I've come with some thoughts and a draft agenda. 00:12:34.600 --> 00:12:38.140 We can either use that or we can use an agenda that you have, or we can 00:12:38.140 --> 00:12:39.700 create one together on the whiteboard. 00:12:39.700 --> 00:12:40.810 What would be your preference? 00:12:41.050 --> 00:12:44.140 How often do my counterparts say, yeah, I also came with an 00:12:44.140 --> 00:12:45.760 agenda and I'd rather use mine? 00:12:45.790 --> 00:12:46.365 How often does it happen? 00:12:47.015 --> 00:12:48.545 It's never happened in my whole career. 00:12:48.815 --> 00:12:50.795 So that gives you a lot of power in negotiation. 00:12:50.975 --> 00:12:54.155 You're gonna control the agenda, and so what should go on the agenda? 00:12:54.395 --> 00:12:56.795 You should think about what are the objectives, okay? 00:12:57.005 --> 00:13:00.575 What people should be there, what's the process for communication? 00:13:00.605 --> 00:13:02.225 Is this a one-time meeting? 00:13:02.285 --> 00:13:03.935 Are we clear about the outcomes? 00:13:04.145 --> 00:13:06.395 And then I would go into some of the things that I wanted to either 00:13:06.395 --> 00:13:08.075 communicate or learn in the meeting. 00:13:08.075 --> 00:13:09.965 Then we have other frameworks that we can talk about. 00:13:10.380 --> 00:13:14.370 Matt Abrahams: I really like the offer to co-create an agenda, even 00:13:14.370 --> 00:13:15.689 if they don't take you up on it. 00:13:15.900 --> 00:13:19.110 It shows that you are willing to be collaborative, listen and work together 00:13:19.110 --> 00:13:23.610 to define it, and I think that positions that connection and a respect that 00:13:23.610 --> 00:13:26.160 really only serves you benefit in that. 00:13:26.670 --> 00:13:29.280 Stan Christensen: The other thing I'll do to even go the next step is I will 00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:34.109 maybe put my chair on their side of the table, share the agenda, or put it up on 00:13:34.109 --> 00:13:36.630 a whiteboard so that we're co-creating it. 00:13:36.900 --> 00:13:39.660 There's a famous saying in negotiation that the art of negotiation 00:13:39.660 --> 00:13:41.099 is letting them have your way. 00:13:41.400 --> 00:13:45.635 Now it feels a little manipulative, but on the agenda having them feel 00:13:45.635 --> 00:13:48.484 like a co-creator of that agenda makes all the difference in the world. 00:13:48.515 --> 00:13:48.995 Matt Abrahams: I like that. 00:13:48.995 --> 00:13:51.094 Let them feel like they're having your way. 00:13:51.094 --> 00:13:51.724 That's great. 00:13:51.995 --> 00:13:54.905 You said something there that I really wanna highlight, that you can 00:13:54.905 --> 00:13:59.614 actually manage not only the agenda, but the physical setup of the room. 00:13:59.984 --> 00:14:03.194 I remember when I was learning to be a high school teacher, I taught high 00:14:03.194 --> 00:14:06.765 school for two years when I left high tech before I started the career I 00:14:06.765 --> 00:14:10.094 have today, I taught high school and they taught us classroom management. 00:14:10.364 --> 00:14:13.395 And one of the things they said is, when you are sitting down with a student 00:14:13.395 --> 00:14:17.814 who has done something inappropriate, wrong, challenging, think about how 00:14:17.814 --> 00:14:20.755 you set your chair to face their chair. 00:14:21.115 --> 00:14:24.535 Is it shoulders facing each other or do you set the chairs 00:14:24.535 --> 00:14:26.245 askew so you're not directly? 00:14:26.605 --> 00:14:28.585 And it makes a tremendous difference. 00:14:28.915 --> 00:14:33.235 So I really like you highlighting where you put yourself in the room, where the 00:14:33.235 --> 00:14:36.355 orientation is towards whatever the shared experience, the whiteboard, et cetera. 00:14:36.535 --> 00:14:37.525 Thank you for bringing that up though. 00:14:37.585 --> 00:14:39.205 And most of us don't think about that at all. 00:14:39.205 --> 00:14:40.705 We just come sit wherever we can. 00:14:40.915 --> 00:14:43.345 Stan Christensen: Yeah, I think just put that under the category of setup. 00:14:43.345 --> 00:14:45.790 You want to have a setup that works for both sides. 00:14:46.455 --> 00:14:48.375 Matt Abrahams: Before we switch topics to talk about a few other 00:14:48.375 --> 00:14:52.965 things, can you share one mistake many people make when they go to negotiate 00:14:52.965 --> 00:14:54.435 that does a disservice to them? 00:14:54.645 --> 00:14:57.465 And is there one thing beyond listening and some of the other 00:14:57.465 --> 00:15:00.705 things you've talked about that you wish everybody was doing that would 00:15:00.705 --> 00:15:02.235 really help them in negotiation? 00:15:02.775 --> 00:15:06.045 Stan Christensen: The biggest mistake I see people make is 00:15:06.045 --> 00:15:07.875 to get hijacked by a surprise. 00:15:08.175 --> 00:15:10.245 Often something will come up that you weren't expecting. 00:15:10.545 --> 00:15:14.775 All that means is that some assumption you are making is coming into question. 00:15:15.165 --> 00:15:17.925 So what they should do is then start inquiring and drilling 00:15:17.925 --> 00:15:19.155 down, what was I missing? 00:15:19.305 --> 00:15:23.474 How do I get to this assumption I made that was in fact incorrect? 00:15:23.474 --> 00:15:25.005 And so that's a mistake a lot of people make. 00:15:25.350 --> 00:15:25.890 Matt Abrahams: I like that. 00:15:25.890 --> 00:15:27.960 So the mistake and the correction there. 00:15:27.960 --> 00:15:31.829 So if something goes awry or doesn't go the way you expected, rather 00:15:31.829 --> 00:15:36.270 than entrench yourself or get distant, lean in and ask questions. 00:15:36.510 --> 00:15:37.439 Really helpful. 00:15:37.949 --> 00:15:39.630 You host an amazing podcast. 00:15:39.630 --> 00:15:41.340 You were very kind to have me on as a guest. 00:15:41.340 --> 00:15:42.900 It's called All Things Negotiation. 00:15:42.900 --> 00:15:44.189 I've learned a lot from it. 00:15:44.550 --> 00:15:47.730 Why did you choose to do a podcast and what do you hope to accomplish with it? 00:15:48.449 --> 00:15:49.020 Stan Christensen: It's a great question. 00:15:49.020 --> 00:15:50.069 Really two things. 00:15:50.280 --> 00:15:53.910 We teach here at Stanford, that's a very small elite group of students, and so my 00:15:53.910 --> 00:15:59.370 podcast is an effort to get the word out of how to negotiate to a broader audience. 00:15:59.579 --> 00:16:01.020 So how do you learn negotiation? 00:16:01.410 --> 00:16:03.480 The best way you can learn is by hearing people's stories. 00:16:03.540 --> 00:16:05.430 So I interview people who are experienced. 00:16:05.640 --> 00:16:08.219 They might be working in the startup world, they might be 00:16:08.219 --> 00:16:11.849 working in government, they might be working in the world of sports. 00:16:11.849 --> 00:16:13.290 I've even had athletes on there. 00:16:13.560 --> 00:16:17.430 And so it's sharing people's stories about negotiation to create learning. 00:16:17.835 --> 00:16:19.695 That's really the most important thing. 00:16:19.965 --> 00:16:21.045 The second reason is it's fun. 00:16:21.285 --> 00:16:24.825 You and I met each other because of my podcast, and so I'm constantly 00:16:24.825 --> 00:16:28.845 meeting new people and improving the things that I teach my students. 00:16:29.250 --> 00:16:32.400 Matt Abrahams: One of the things I really value about how you do your podcast is you 00:16:32.400 --> 00:16:34.530 solicit a lot of stories from your guests. 00:16:34.829 --> 00:16:38.729 Is there a story that you learned that had a change or impact on the 00:16:38.729 --> 00:16:40.260 way you communicate and negotiate? 00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:42.660 Stan Christensen: I do think I've learned from all of my guests, including 00:16:42.660 --> 00:16:45.900 you, of course, the one that jumps to mind is General Stanley McChrystal. 00:16:45.900 --> 00:16:48.750 I was fortunate to interview him and I've been thinking 00:16:48.750 --> 00:16:49.860 about the interview ever since. 00:16:49.860 --> 00:16:53.000 And the reason I've been thinking about it, he recently wrote a book 00:16:53.000 --> 00:16:56.870 called On Character, and he talks about how character is in fact a 00:16:56.870 --> 00:17:00.199 negotiation and it's a lifetime of negotiating your character, the 00:17:00.199 --> 00:17:04.339 ability to trust one another, more importantly to be trustworthy. 00:17:04.700 --> 00:17:07.579 And if we look at our country and what's going on right now, we need 00:17:07.579 --> 00:17:11.750 more people that have developed relationships of trust and character. 00:17:11.960 --> 00:17:15.079 And he's not only a great example of that, but in the interview 00:17:15.079 --> 00:17:15.915 he teaches us how to do that. 00:17:16.710 --> 00:17:19.290 Matt Abrahams: I love that you learned from somebody who's a great teacher. 00:17:19.290 --> 00:17:23.040 I've had the good fortune to interview him as well, but also point about 00:17:23.040 --> 00:17:25.200 trust and building trust, so important. 00:17:26.760 --> 00:17:28.620 This has been a great conversation as I knew it would. 00:17:28.620 --> 00:17:31.050 Before we end, I'd like to ask everybody three questions. 00:17:31.050 --> 00:17:33.360 One I'm gonna make up for you and the other two I've been asking 00:17:33.360 --> 00:17:35.280 across all the podcast episodes. 00:17:35.550 --> 00:17:36.180 Are you up for that? 00:17:36.450 --> 00:17:37.110 Stan Christensen: Absolutely. 00:17:37.230 --> 00:17:37.710 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:17:38.130 --> 00:17:42.270 Beyond the negotiating you do and the teaching that you do of negotiation, 00:17:42.300 --> 00:17:44.970 you've navigated the venture capital world, you've raised money, 00:17:44.970 --> 00:17:46.200 you've helped people raise money. 00:17:46.470 --> 00:17:50.340 What's your best advice for communicating a new disruptive idea 00:17:50.340 --> 00:17:53.640 to those who might be skeptical or unsure of what you're saying? 00:17:54.120 --> 00:17:57.300 Stan Christensen: Yeah, the most important advice here is to present 00:17:57.300 --> 00:17:58.770 as they want to be presented to. 00:17:59.010 --> 00:18:02.550 Most venture capitalists either have a video or a blog or 00:18:02.550 --> 00:18:05.730 something online talking about how they like presentations to go. 00:18:05.940 --> 00:18:09.810 So if you come with that information, Hey, I did some research on your 00:18:09.810 --> 00:18:12.720 firm and you guys tend to like to use PowerPoint, or you guys tend to just 00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:16.350 like to do Q and A. And I would start by saying, I've done some research. 00:18:16.350 --> 00:18:18.660 I assume that what you guys really like to do is Q and A. 00:18:18.660 --> 00:18:19.470 Should we jump right to that? 00:18:19.470 --> 00:18:21.000 Or, I have a PowerPoint, we can use that. 00:18:21.000 --> 00:18:24.000 So you're kind of asking for permission and then they feel 00:18:24.000 --> 00:18:25.230 like, wow, you're sophisticated. 00:18:25.560 --> 00:18:28.379 The second thing about venture capitalists is they're a little 00:18:28.379 --> 00:18:32.129 bit like car dealers in the sense that they know what they're doing. 00:18:32.340 --> 00:18:34.800 If you try to play their game, they're gonna win. 00:18:34.800 --> 00:18:35.760 They're gonna play it better. 00:18:36.210 --> 00:18:39.570 And so what I say is, rather than try to play their game better, 00:18:39.780 --> 00:18:41.280 create the terms for the game. 00:18:41.490 --> 00:18:44.639 I tell students, create a two week period that you're willing 00:18:44.639 --> 00:18:46.020 to talk to venture capitalists. 00:18:46.290 --> 00:18:49.439 Define that so that they don't drag it out for four months and 00:18:49.439 --> 00:18:52.770 introduce you individually to their partners over a long period of time. 00:18:52.919 --> 00:18:55.709 And it creates a little bit of a scarcity mentality, so 00:18:55.709 --> 00:18:57.090 don't try to play their game. 00:18:57.360 --> 00:18:59.850 Play your game, 'cause you're not gonna play their game better. 00:18:59.910 --> 00:19:01.890 Matt Abrahams: So the very first thing I heard you say is take 00:19:01.890 --> 00:19:03.300 time to reflect on your audience. 00:19:03.300 --> 00:19:06.840 And many of these folks will tell you how they want to be communicated with. 00:19:06.840 --> 00:19:09.090 So appreciate that and act accordingly. 00:19:09.270 --> 00:19:11.730 And then the other thing that's implied in that is you have to 00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:13.260 adjust and adapt your message. 00:19:13.290 --> 00:19:15.990 A lot of people I know who I help with pitching just create one 00:19:15.990 --> 00:19:18.810 pitch and they just keep delivering it in different circumstances. 00:19:18.810 --> 00:19:21.960 And what you're advising is no, you have to adjust and adapt to what they tell you. 00:19:22.230 --> 00:19:25.740 And then the second part of your advice is set up parameters. 00:19:26.030 --> 00:19:29.300 You can bring your own parameters and boundaries to the interaction, 00:19:29.300 --> 00:19:32.929 and that can be helpful because it can build momentum more quickly. 00:19:33.350 --> 00:19:35.419 I'll be curious to hear your answer to question number two. 00:19:35.419 --> 00:19:38.240 Who is a communicator that you admire and why? 00:19:38.480 --> 00:19:39.500 Stan Christensen: Gosh, there's so many. 00:19:39.679 --> 00:19:45.290 The one that comes to mind is Dr. Martin Luther King, and the why is he was able 00:19:45.290 --> 00:19:51.560 to fuse beautiful, vivid storytelling with moral authority in a way that I 00:19:51.560 --> 00:19:53.179 don't know anyone else who has done that. 00:19:53.534 --> 00:19:57.165 For my students, I have them read the letter from Birmingham Jail 00:19:57.195 --> 00:19:59.745 every semester, and we look at that as a persuasive document. 00:19:59.745 --> 00:20:01.064 It's in effect a negotiation. 00:20:01.155 --> 00:20:05.804 And so what Martin Luther King was able to do by both the written and spoken word, 00:20:05.955 --> 00:20:07.395 for me, puts him in the hall of fame. 00:20:07.395 --> 00:20:08.294 No one touches him. 00:20:08.294 --> 00:20:10.905 He essentially appealed to our consciousness. 00:20:10.995 --> 00:20:14.124 And if you can appeal to someone's consciousness and change a generation, 00:20:14.460 --> 00:20:18.000 he fast forwarded how we manage and we're still negotiating race relations, 00:20:18.150 --> 00:20:22.050 but he did more to change how we think about that than any other person. 00:20:22.050 --> 00:20:23.940 And so I think he's my top choice. 00:20:24.240 --> 00:20:27.180 Matt Abrahams: I really love that you use one of his speeches 00:20:27.180 --> 00:20:29.010 as an example of negotiation. 00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:33.090 I have used several of his speeches as examples of lots of things, rhetorical 00:20:33.090 --> 00:20:37.500 flourish, clarity, engagement, but I've never used it as a negotiation, 00:20:37.500 --> 00:20:38.879 and I think that's really fascinating. 00:20:38.879 --> 00:20:41.340 Thank you for sharing that, and thank you for doing that with our students. 00:20:41.850 --> 00:20:45.270 Final question, what are the first three ingredients that go into a 00:20:45.270 --> 00:20:47.040 successful communication recipe? 00:20:47.685 --> 00:20:50.265 Stan Christensen: I'm not much of a cook, but I have a lot to say about negotiation. 00:20:50.265 --> 00:20:52.575 I would say the first one that comes to mind is vulnerability. 00:20:52.725 --> 00:20:56.085 We assume that we should come in very strong, very powerful, to use your 00:20:56.085 --> 00:21:00.195 word, advocate, when in reality if you can be vulnerable, it tends to 00:21:00.195 --> 00:21:02.205 beget vulnerability on the other side. 00:21:02.205 --> 00:21:03.585 So that would be my first ingredient. 00:21:03.915 --> 00:21:06.675 Second would be to question your assumptions and let's just drill into that 00:21:06.675 --> 00:21:08.115 a little bit more than we did earlier. 00:21:08.274 --> 00:21:09.324 We all come with assumptions. 00:21:09.324 --> 00:21:11.574 I come with certain assumptions to this conversation. 00:21:11.665 --> 00:21:12.625 We're both white males. 00:21:12.625 --> 00:21:13.705 We both teach at Stanford. 00:21:13.705 --> 00:21:14.605 We're both middle aged. 00:21:14.605 --> 00:21:15.475 We have kids. 00:21:15.774 --> 00:21:18.925 A lot of similarities, but there are probably some things that we really 00:21:18.925 --> 00:21:20.875 see differently and fleshing that out. 00:21:20.875 --> 00:21:24.175 And so question the assumption that you understand the other party, that you 00:21:24.175 --> 00:21:27.115 know what they want, and as we talked about earlier, that there's nothing 00:21:27.115 --> 00:21:31.165 they could tell you that wouldn't change your objectives for what a successful 00:21:31.165 --> 00:21:32.754 outcome would be in the negotiations. 00:21:32.754 --> 00:21:34.735 That would be second, is questioning your assumptions. 00:21:35.064 --> 00:21:37.584 I'd say third, have an action plan for going forward. 00:21:37.770 --> 00:21:41.399 Often people negotiate very complex agreements and they go file that in 00:21:41.399 --> 00:21:45.149 the digital file somewhere, and what gets implemented is totally different. 00:21:45.389 --> 00:21:48.479 In the world that I used to work in, mergers and acquisitions, often they don't 00:21:48.479 --> 00:21:52.199 work out very well, and the reason is no one is focused on the implementation. 00:21:52.199 --> 00:21:56.399 So it doesn't matter how effective you are at negotiation if the deal 00:21:56.399 --> 00:21:58.649 doesn't get implemented effectively. 00:21:58.649 --> 00:21:59.820 So that'd be my third ingredient. 00:22:00.000 --> 00:22:01.709 Matt Abrahams: I really like that you start answering this 00:22:01.709 --> 00:22:03.000 question with vulnerability. 00:22:03.879 --> 00:22:07.030 When I think about negotiation, vulnerability is the antithesis of what 00:22:07.030 --> 00:22:10.060 I think about, but I can really see based on what you've shared, not just in this 00:22:10.060 --> 00:22:14.919 answer, but prior, how that really sets you up to have a relationship that sets 00:22:14.919 --> 00:22:17.200 the negotiation on a path to success. 00:22:17.439 --> 00:22:20.590 Questioning assumptions, absolutely understand why that's important. 00:22:20.590 --> 00:22:24.635 We come in perhaps more rigid than we should, and staying open, and then having 00:22:24.760 --> 00:22:27.100 a clear action plan for what comes next. 00:22:27.320 --> 00:22:29.840 Even though you say you're not a good cook, I can certainly see that you're 00:22:29.840 --> 00:22:31.610 gonna set up a great negotiation. 00:22:31.880 --> 00:22:33.590 Stan, this has been fantastic. 00:22:33.590 --> 00:22:34.970 This has really been helpful. 00:22:34.970 --> 00:22:37.490 You've laid out what makes for successful negotiation and more 00:22:37.490 --> 00:22:39.470 importantly, successful relationships. 00:22:39.890 --> 00:22:43.730 And really negotiation is but one tool for managing those relationships. 00:22:43.730 --> 00:22:47.300 And thank you for challenging us to see negotiation more broadly 00:22:47.300 --> 00:22:49.820 and providing us with the tools and techniques to do it better. 00:22:49.910 --> 00:22:50.330 Thank you. 00:22:50.780 --> 00:22:51.410 Stan Christensen: Nice to be here. 00:22:53.780 --> 00:22:55.400 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:22:55.400 --> 00:22:56.990 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:22:57.450 --> 00:23:00.840 To learn more about negotiation, please listen to episode 15 with Maggie 00:23:00.840 --> 00:23:03.340 Neal in episode 204 with Sheila Heen. 00:23:03.780 --> 00:23:08.460 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:23:08.790 --> 00:23:10.200 Our music is from Floyd Wonder. 00:23:10.544 --> 00:23:12.705 With thanks to the Podium Podcast Company. 00:23:12.915 --> 00:23:16.004 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:23:16.215 --> 00:23:18.074 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:23:18.284 --> 00:23:22.695 Also follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram and check out fastersmarter.io for 00:23:22.695 --> 00:23:26.745 deep dive videos, English language learning content, and our newsletter. 00:23:27.014 --> 00:23:30.345 Please consider our premium offering for extended Deep Thinks episodes, 00:23:30.485 --> 00:23:34.504 AMAs, Ask Matt Anythings and much more at fastersmarter.io/premium.