WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:01.020 --> 00:00:06.330 Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who 00:00:06.330 --> 00:00:12.090 see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care. 00:00:12.780 --> 00:00:14.970 I'm Uncle Herrmann and I'm your host. 00:00:15.510 --> 00:00:20.790 I talk to wholesome humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people. 00:00:21.210 --> 00:00:23.550 So come and join us for today's conversation. 00:00:25.077 --> 00:00:26.552 Anke: Hello and welcome Stephanie. 00:00:26.762 --> 00:00:28.802 I'm like super excited to have you here. 00:00:30.062 --> 00:00:30.182 Stephanie: Me too. 00:00:30.182 --> 00:00:31.052 Thank you for having me. 00:00:31.982 --> 00:00:36.032 Anke: Well, I actually, you know, saw a post of yours and I. 00:00:37.142 --> 00:00:41.702 P and say, Hey, I want you on the show and you, I'm excited. 00:00:42.032 --> 00:00:46.082 So let people know where are you in this lovely world? 00:00:46.142 --> 00:00:49.952 And you know, what's your business with dogs and why did IP. 00:00:52.637 --> 00:00:55.427 Stephanie: Um, so I am in Alberta, Canada. 00:00:55.877 --> 00:00:59.387 Uh, my business is Happy House Dog Training, so I'm the trainer and owner. 00:00:59.387 --> 00:01:00.707 It's just a one person company. 00:01:00.947 --> 00:01:04.907 Um, I also put a lot of tutorials online, so I feel like I'm, I'm best 00:01:04.907 --> 00:01:09.557 known through the YouTube world, but you pounced on me because I think you 00:01:09.557 --> 00:01:10.937 saw an announcement that I wrote a book, 00:01:11.897 --> 00:01:12.677 Anke: so I did indeed. 00:01:12.947 --> 00:01:13.277 Yeah. 00:01:13.282 --> 00:01:13.492 Yeah. 00:01:13.577 --> 00:01:17.507 So, you know, tell us about, tell us about the book or the topic of the book. 00:01:19.097 --> 00:01:21.737 Stephanie: So it's, um, inspired by my own dog, Nera. 00:01:21.797 --> 00:01:25.367 Uh, she was 10 when I wrote at 11 now, but when she was younger, 00:01:25.367 --> 00:01:29.477 she was a, I politely say she was a menace with animals. 00:01:29.567 --> 00:01:32.687 Like if it moved, she chased everything. 00:01:32.687 --> 00:01:37.277 So it was squirrels, cats, like my hair, garbage, anything. 00:01:37.277 --> 00:01:40.937 If it moved, she had to go get it and it was, it was an 00:01:40.937 --> 00:01:42.107 interesting experience for me. 00:01:42.137 --> 00:01:45.257 Um, I don't know if you wanna go into sort of back history, but I actually 00:01:45.257 --> 00:01:47.027 grew up, my mom was a dog trainer. 00:01:47.527 --> 00:01:51.337 But in the compulsion side, so using a lot of very heavy corrections. 00:01:51.757 --> 00:01:54.247 And that was sort of what I grew up knowing. 00:01:54.247 --> 00:01:55.987 But I didn't wanna do that with my own dog. 00:01:56.137 --> 00:02:01.237 So this book is the process that I came up with to train her prey drive 00:02:01.237 --> 00:02:04.837 and to stop chasing animals, but completely with reward-based training. 00:02:05.287 --> 00:02:06.037 So, wow. 00:02:06.247 --> 00:02:10.057 Anke: I think this is like anybody with a dog, with, you know, with a, a 00:02:10.057 --> 00:02:11.767 chaser dog is going like, oh my God. 00:02:11.827 --> 00:02:12.937 Like, tell me more. 00:02:12.937 --> 00:02:13.627 Tell me more. 00:02:13.867 --> 00:02:13.957 You. 00:02:16.727 --> 00:02:18.137 Like, what breeds your dog? 00:02:18.137 --> 00:02:21.017 Because if I look at Chase, I was like, oh, this is like some Aussie 00:02:21.017 --> 00:02:25.037 sheep dog or something like, you know, is it also, are there breeds 00:02:25.037 --> 00:02:27.437 that are more prone to chasing? 00:02:27.827 --> 00:02:28.097 Definitely. 00:02:28.097 --> 00:02:34.037 And um, you know, what did you do with, like, how did you come up with the method? 00:02:34.037 --> 00:02:35.447 Like how did that evolve? 00:02:36.497 --> 00:02:40.517 Stephanie: Yeah, so, um, my, my own dog, she's a corky cattle dog, so 00:02:40.517 --> 00:02:42.437 two herding breeds mixed into one. 00:02:42.832 --> 00:02:46.577 I, I joke that as a puppy, her name was, leave it because I was constantly 00:02:46.577 --> 00:02:47.507 being like, leave that alone. 00:02:47.567 --> 00:02:48.312 Leave that alone. 00:02:48.462 --> 00:02:52.637 Like, and it's one of those things too where you know her chasing it in. 00:02:53.017 --> 00:02:53.887 It's completely fair. 00:02:53.887 --> 00:02:58.267 We bred dogs like especially herding breeds to go after the animals that 00:02:58.267 --> 00:03:02.347 they see so they can motivate and move livestock like she, she's bred for 00:03:02.347 --> 00:03:08.227 this, but in my, uh, my tiny condo in the city, it wasn't an ideal behavior. 00:03:08.227 --> 00:03:11.917 So that's why I always joke is like, you know, understand why 00:03:11.917 --> 00:03:13.592 your dog acts the way they do. 00:03:13.652 --> 00:03:16.507 And I think that's why we also need to train it kindly because. 00:03:16.807 --> 00:03:20.497 We asked our dogs to act like this back in the day, throughout 00:03:20.497 --> 00:03:21.817 history, it's really helped us. 00:03:21.817 --> 00:03:26.557 But nowadays, especially with most of my clients living in a large city like we 00:03:26.557 --> 00:03:28.897 now deem it a very undesirable behavior. 00:03:29.557 --> 00:03:31.267 Anke: Yeah, that's, I mean, that's so true. 00:03:31.567 --> 00:03:36.007 And I mean, do you even think it's fair to bring, like, I'm laughing. 00:03:46.847 --> 00:03:49.187 Where do you suggest somebody starts? 00:03:49.187 --> 00:03:53.207 You know, like if I have a dog who goes, you know, I have one she likes kind of. 00:03:53.297 --> 00:03:54.647 She is lovely with everyone. 00:03:54.647 --> 00:03:55.667 As long as you're not a cat. 00:03:57.227 --> 00:03:57.527 Stephanie: Yeah. 00:03:57.527 --> 00:03:57.528 Yeah. 00:03:57.677 --> 00:04:01.972 I had a cat at home at the time too, so that was also not ideal. 00:04:02.482 --> 00:04:02.772 Yeah. 00:04:03.792 --> 00:04:04.892 Anke: So you knew. 00:04:06.037 --> 00:04:07.987 That you didn't wanna do it your mom's way. 00:04:08.227 --> 00:04:08.617 Right. 00:04:08.827 --> 00:04:13.957 So what was the evolution of like, what did you try first and where do, where, 00:04:13.957 --> 00:04:17.317 where was the first time that you go, oh, here's something else that might work. 00:04:18.397 --> 00:04:19.507 Stephanie: So interesting. 00:04:19.507 --> 00:04:22.687 Like, I had a dog before Nera, he was a rescue. 00:04:22.807 --> 00:04:23.287 Um. 00:04:23.612 --> 00:04:27.182 The shelter was actually gonna euthanize him 'cause he just had ex, they 00:04:27.182 --> 00:04:29.042 call it extreme behavioral concerns. 00:04:29.042 --> 00:04:30.632 Like he wasn't fit for a home. 00:04:30.632 --> 00:04:33.782 But I took him on and I found it very, very interesting. 00:04:33.782 --> 00:04:36.242 Like he had separation anxiety and resource guardian. 00:04:36.242 --> 00:04:37.172 He was leash reactive. 00:04:37.172 --> 00:04:40.862 Like pretty much if there's the checklist of every behavior you can have, he had it. 00:04:41.402 --> 00:04:44.912 And that was my first experience of not wanting to use 00:04:44.912 --> 00:04:46.412 corrections to change anything. 00:04:46.412 --> 00:04:49.232 'cause I just, I loved that little dog so much. 00:04:49.232 --> 00:04:51.452 So he was kind of my first experience. 00:04:51.872 --> 00:04:55.292 Finding out that there was even other things, Zach George was my first 00:04:55.502 --> 00:04:58.292 kind of experience into the forestry world, and then it went from there. 00:04:58.292 --> 00:05:03.032 But just realizing that yeah, you actually can change behavior by giving a dog 00:05:03.032 --> 00:05:04.802 something that they want, like treats. 00:05:04.802 --> 00:05:06.932 And I think I had to realize, I. 00:05:08.072 --> 00:05:10.952 The example I often give, and I hope it doesn't come across as rude, but I always 00:05:10.952 --> 00:05:14.942 say like, if you don't use something properly, you can't expect it to work. 00:05:14.942 --> 00:05:19.532 So the analogy I often give is like, if you're holding a vacuum upside down, you 00:05:19.532 --> 00:05:21.482 can't expect it to clean your floors. 00:05:21.962 --> 00:05:25.352 And as somebody that started off in the correction base world, I think I. 00:05:25.492 --> 00:05:28.612 The way that you usually do it is you set the dog up to fail so that 00:05:28.612 --> 00:05:30.382 there's something to correct, right? 00:05:30.382 --> 00:05:32.542 Like that's sort of the old school way of training. 00:05:33.112 --> 00:05:36.922 Force free or rewards-based training has to be the exact opposite where 00:05:36.922 --> 00:05:40.462 you're setting the dog up to succeed so that you can reward that behavior 00:05:40.462 --> 00:05:41.782 and then progress from there. 00:05:41.812 --> 00:05:45.562 But if you immediately put a dog into a situation they can't handle. 00:05:45.827 --> 00:05:49.307 It's gonna fail, and it's not the method that's failing, it's to the handler. 00:05:49.667 --> 00:05:50.567 So that's so, 00:05:50.777 --> 00:05:51.467 Anke: that's so true. 00:05:51.467 --> 00:05:56.597 But actually that brings up a really interesting, uh, point because, uh, 00:05:57.737 --> 00:06:03.677 I don't try to indulge in the endless arguments between dog trainers, you 00:06:03.677 --> 00:06:07.787 know, but there is always like the biggest pushback that I see that, 00:06:08.117 --> 00:06:10.097 you know, force free methods get. 00:06:10.547 --> 00:06:13.817 Yeah, but that doesn't work with a real tough case, right? 00:06:13.997 --> 00:06:14.087 Yeah. 00:06:14.087 --> 00:06:18.377 And I think the, I mean, most of the time I think they refer more to aggressive 00:06:18.377 --> 00:06:22.577 kind of behavior, but, but the chasing is a pretty tough one, you know? 00:06:22.577 --> 00:06:23.087 I think. 00:06:23.087 --> 00:06:23.267 Yeah. 00:06:23.477 --> 00:06:25.427 So it's so instinctual for them. 00:06:26.657 --> 00:06:27.137 Yeah. 00:06:27.137 --> 00:06:31.847 So I mean, how does one, you know, if I'm now just even like imagining mine go 00:06:31.847 --> 00:06:34.307 off the cat, like where do I even start? 00:06:35.327 --> 00:06:37.877 Stephanie: Yeah, so I was, for my program, like the three things, I 00:06:37.877 --> 00:06:41.267 say there's three components and you have to use all three if you want. 00:06:41.267 --> 00:06:43.367 Success is the first one. 00:06:43.397 --> 00:06:45.497 So management, preventing the behavior. 00:06:45.497 --> 00:06:49.427 So I had a cat at home when I was, when I was doing this training, and so I was 00:06:49.427 --> 00:06:53.717 using things like baby gates or closing doors, just so she can't rehearse that fun 00:06:53.717 --> 00:06:55.757 behavior of going after the cat because. 00:06:56.582 --> 00:06:59.402 We can talk more about like the pre dry sequence, but when they actually get 00:06:59.402 --> 00:07:04.172 to chase, and especially if they get to catch that animal, it's so rewarding. 00:07:04.172 --> 00:07:06.872 Like there's like a huge chemical cocktail that gets released 00:07:06.872 --> 00:07:08.552 that feels so good for the dog. 00:07:09.032 --> 00:07:12.122 But if we're talking about positive reinforcement, like that behavior. 00:07:12.302 --> 00:07:14.012 They rewarded themselves heavily. 00:07:14.372 --> 00:07:17.162 So I always tell people like the first thing if you want success is you have 00:07:17.162 --> 00:07:19.142 to find ways to stop that behavior. 00:07:19.442 --> 00:07:21.422 Um, there's a lot of off leash parks here. 00:07:21.422 --> 00:07:22.772 I would take her to when she was a puppy. 00:07:23.072 --> 00:07:27.032 We stopped temporarily going to those and just doing all leash walks instead. 00:07:27.122 --> 00:07:27.752 Stuff like that. 00:07:28.352 --> 00:07:31.292 And then we can go more into like depth about the training system. 00:07:31.292 --> 00:07:35.312 But again, it's that concept of like starting where your dog can be successful, 00:07:35.522 --> 00:07:39.032 building up a huge reward history, and then making it harder and harder. 00:07:39.032 --> 00:07:42.182 So my dog now can be two feet from a running squirrel and. 00:07:42.632 --> 00:07:47.252 Nothing like it's, but if you start trying to train there, you're gonna fail. 00:07:47.852 --> 00:07:51.092 And then I also suggest, um, replacement outlets is what I call it. 00:07:51.092 --> 00:07:52.262 Some people would call it enrichment. 00:07:52.502 --> 00:07:53.582 It's kind of universal. 00:07:53.582 --> 00:07:57.752 But if you're gonna take away something that a dog instinctually does, you two 00:07:57.752 --> 00:07:59.702 have to satisfy that behavior elsewhere. 00:07:59.702 --> 00:08:01.082 Like you can't expect your dog. 00:08:01.127 --> 00:08:02.237 To not be a dog. 00:08:02.267 --> 00:08:05.897 You have to find ways to set them up where they always say like, let your dog be a 00:08:05.897 --> 00:08:09.917 little wolf for 10 to 20 minutes a day, and they're gonna be so much happier. 00:08:09.917 --> 00:08:14.447 And a lot of people, I think, worry that if you offer games and toys 00:08:14.447 --> 00:08:18.587 that kind of mimic that predatory behavior, you're gonna make it worse. 00:08:18.917 --> 00:08:22.187 But I always say it's like a pre drive battery, where the more you offer 00:08:22.187 --> 00:08:26.597 outlets for it, the less need they have with real animals like squirrels. 00:08:27.782 --> 00:08:33.092 Anke: That's interesting because I actually, um, years ago I came across 00:08:33.092 --> 00:08:35.492 natural dog training with Kevin Behan. 00:08:35.492 --> 00:08:39.632 I don't know whether you, you know, he's in the us but anyway, he like, very 00:08:39.632 --> 00:08:43.772 similar to you, like his dad was a dog trainer, you know, very much like the 00:08:43.772 --> 00:08:48.002 military or the, like police dogs and, you know, aversive like the, the kind 00:08:48.002 --> 00:08:49.232 of stuff that they did in the fifties. 00:08:49.232 --> 00:08:49.412 Right. 00:08:49.412 --> 00:08:49.952 And so he. 00:08:52.637 --> 00:08:53.607 There's something wrong here. 00:08:53.812 --> 00:08:56.717 Wrong, you know, there's something that theory doesn't add up, right? 00:08:56.717 --> 00:09:02.327 So, and he developed his method, which was very much based around the pre drive. 00:09:02.327 --> 00:09:05.627 He always called it it's ener emotion, energy in motion. 00:09:05.957 --> 00:09:10.457 And so when I had this one first, like the thing that he always said, like, you need 00:09:10.457 --> 00:09:13.877 to give him something to bite into, right? 00:09:13.877 --> 00:09:14.057 Yes. 00:09:14.267 --> 00:09:16.877 And so it was literally that, it's almost, it's that. 00:09:17.777 --> 00:09:18.557 I got it right. 00:09:18.557 --> 00:09:25.277 And to this day, I don't carry even treats on the walk I carry, um, like a rope toy? 00:09:26.027 --> 00:09:26.327 Yeah. 00:09:26.387 --> 00:09:27.677 You know, with a big knot in it. 00:09:28.007 --> 00:09:31.097 So when she sees a cat and she knows now, she kind of looks at the. 00:09:32.297 --> 00:09:35.177 And then she looks and, and then she bites into the thing. 00:09:35.297 --> 00:09:38.087 So she gets her, she gets her reward in a sense. 00:09:38.087 --> 00:09:41.357 Like she gets the outlet biting in that, in that thing, you know, 00:09:41.357 --> 00:09:42.587 and that's worked really well. 00:09:42.587 --> 00:09:45.347 And that kind of feels like it's going in that same direction 00:09:45.347 --> 00:09:46.247 that you are talking about. 00:09:46.247 --> 00:09:46.397 Right. 00:09:46.397 --> 00:09:47.657 It makes a lot of sense to me. 00:09:47.717 --> 00:09:47.897 Yeah. 00:09:48.047 --> 00:09:49.217 With that experience. 00:09:49.217 --> 00:09:49.697 Yeah. 00:09:50.297 --> 00:09:50.657 Stephanie: Yeah. 00:09:50.687 --> 00:09:53.237 I think I've been, like, we talked about rewards based training and like the, the 00:09:53.237 --> 00:09:55.847 stereotypical way is treats and like I do. 00:09:56.092 --> 00:09:57.502 Typically, eventually use those. 00:09:57.502 --> 00:10:01.012 But one thing I talk about in the book is um, I call it functional rewards. 00:10:01.012 --> 00:10:03.592 I've heard different terms, but it's basically anything that meets 00:10:03.592 --> 00:10:06.502 the dog's needs, but also gives them what they want in that moment. 00:10:06.502 --> 00:10:09.262 And the example I often give, 'cause I think it's easiest to understand, is 00:10:09.262 --> 00:10:12.262 like if it was a really hot summer day and you're walking your dog next to a 00:10:12.262 --> 00:10:16.012 river and you wanted to call them back to you, like that dry treat that you 00:10:16.012 --> 00:10:19.642 have in your pocket is not gonna be what they want compared to like going and 00:10:19.642 --> 00:10:21.712 drinking in the water, going for a swim. 00:10:22.162 --> 00:10:25.402 So if you can use the release into that river as the reward, I. 00:10:25.642 --> 00:10:28.552 That's a functional reward, and it's exactly what you 00:10:28.552 --> 00:10:29.632 just described with a toy. 00:10:29.632 --> 00:10:33.532 So same thing like I found there was like I could bring steak on the walk 00:10:33.592 --> 00:10:37.912 when my dog was a puppy and like she's still gonna choose a squirrel even 00:10:37.912 --> 00:10:39.652 when I'm doing the training correctly. 00:10:39.982 --> 00:10:43.822 But once I started bringing a fur toy, so she actually got to use those instincts 00:10:43.822 --> 00:10:47.182 on something that she kind of got that little taste of what she actually 00:10:47.182 --> 00:10:48.862 wanted, which is to hunt an animal. 00:10:49.282 --> 00:10:49.342 So. 00:10:50.567 --> 00:10:52.187 Anke: I love that, that makes so much sense. 00:10:52.517 --> 00:10:52.877 You know? 00:10:52.877 --> 00:10:53.357 Yeah. 00:10:53.357 --> 00:10:58.217 And so how, how, how slow is slow enough with this, because I think a big 00:10:58.217 --> 00:11:02.537 temptation for people is always like to sort of skip ahead, you know, how, how 00:11:02.537 --> 00:11:07.037 slow would that, like what, how long does it normally take to get a chaser to, 00:11:07.457 --> 00:11:09.167 to, you know, learn something different? 00:11:10.277 --> 00:11:12.467 Stephanie: Yeah, I think it's always such a hard question to answer 00:11:12.497 --> 00:11:14.117 'cause it really depends on the dog. 00:11:14.117 --> 00:11:18.587 And I also often find like the severity of the behavior doesn't necessarily 00:11:18.647 --> 00:11:20.267 equate to how long it really takes. 00:11:20.267 --> 00:11:24.227 Like I had one sight hound, um, client, they hired me and their 00:11:24.227 --> 00:11:26.387 dog was indoor chasing their cat. 00:11:26.777 --> 00:11:30.887 And like, if caught was not being kind like it was, it was really concerning. 00:11:30.887 --> 00:11:34.067 But that dog took a week and a half like it. 00:11:34.422 --> 00:11:36.642 Completely stop chasing the cat in a week and a half. 00:11:37.092 --> 00:11:39.462 That is not the normal, right? 00:11:39.462 --> 00:11:42.132 So like that was an extreme version of the behavior. 00:11:42.312 --> 00:11:44.952 But as soon as the dog got it, it just got it. 00:11:45.252 --> 00:11:47.232 My own dog took a few months. 00:11:47.352 --> 00:11:51.912 So I would say like give yourself two or three months to really expect a lot. 00:11:51.912 --> 00:11:55.392 And like kind of it's your dog is gonna determine the pace, right? 00:11:55.392 --> 00:11:55.842 Not you 00:11:56.517 --> 00:11:58.242 Anke: that, yeah, that makes so much sense. 00:11:58.242 --> 00:12:01.482 But I think even the hope, even knowing that it's possible. 00:12:01.892 --> 00:12:02.192 You know? 00:12:02.222 --> 00:12:02.342 Yeah. 00:12:02.342 --> 00:12:04.832 'cause I think how often will people just go, oh, well that's 00:12:04.832 --> 00:12:06.452 my, that's just like nature. 00:12:06.452 --> 00:12:09.347 Like that's just how it is and I'm just gonna, you. 00:12:10.772 --> 00:12:12.842 Stephanie: I think that's part of why I wrote the book is I feel like 00:12:12.842 --> 00:12:16.562 it is one of those behaviors that is genuinely concerning for people, right? 00:12:16.562 --> 00:12:19.382 Like if you're a dog, chases a squirrel across a busy road, there's 00:12:19.382 --> 00:12:21.542 a huge risk of injury for that dog. 00:12:21.542 --> 00:12:23.792 Like there's real consequences to the behavior. 00:12:24.212 --> 00:12:26.702 So a lot of people will start to think, well, if there's no other way, it's. 00:12:26.717 --> 00:12:29.957 Better to use painful corrections than have a dog potentially 00:12:29.957 --> 00:12:31.457 get hit by a car or whatever. 00:12:31.457 --> 00:12:36.617 And I just wanted to explain that there's a very, very viable, effective 00:12:36.707 --> 00:12:40.637 other option and it's, it's really kind and like the training's fun. 00:12:40.667 --> 00:12:43.697 I think that's the other thing is I found a lot of people that once they start on 00:12:43.697 --> 00:12:46.997 the program, it gets such a good time that you're having with your dog that 00:12:46.997 --> 00:12:50.087 you stop thinking like, okay, is it gonna take three weeks or is it gonna take four? 00:12:50.087 --> 00:12:50.357 Right? 00:12:50.357 --> 00:12:52.307 Like you just actually enjoy the process and Yeah. 00:12:53.897 --> 00:12:54.797 Anke: So, and also like. 00:12:55.847 --> 00:12:58.967 That's actually, that just reminds me like, yeah, Mr. 00:12:58.967 --> 00:13:01.487 Layer was like a little rodent hunter, you know? 00:13:01.487 --> 00:13:05.117 So when he was like out in the mountains, I, I actually then ended 00:13:05.117 --> 00:13:08.807 up not letting him off in the woods anymore because he would be like 00:13:08.807 --> 00:13:10.127 that, like you could yell after him. 00:13:10.127 --> 00:13:12.257 You could really notice like he was on a hunt now. 00:13:12.497 --> 00:13:14.327 Like I was no longer in his world. 00:13:14.327 --> 00:13:15.047 I could just. 00:13:15.282 --> 00:13:18.342 Yell my little heart out and he wouldn't even register. 00:13:18.582 --> 00:13:20.142 So yeah, totally. 00:13:20.412 --> 00:13:24.672 Now what I'm curious about is, so you just said something, you said like, oh, 00:13:24.672 --> 00:13:26.832 and then he got it right and he got it. 00:13:27.192 --> 00:13:31.692 So is that typical that like, once they kind of understand that, oh no, this 00:13:31.692 --> 00:13:36.882 little rabbit is not for me, or is this something that needs to be practiced 00:13:36.912 --> 00:13:40.152 or, or kind of like maintained, like, you know, like a language, like if you 00:13:40.152 --> 00:13:42.192 don't use it, lose it kind of thing? 00:13:42.582 --> 00:13:44.472 Or is it once you get it, you get it? 00:13:45.632 --> 00:13:48.452 Stephanie: So I always say like, I need a really difficult skill like this. 00:13:48.842 --> 00:13:49.922 Once they get it. 00:13:49.922 --> 00:13:51.842 So like there's three phases for the training. 00:13:51.872 --> 00:13:54.782 The way that I teach it, the first one, you're immediately queuing 00:13:54.782 --> 00:13:57.182 the dog, like you're telling them to leave that animal alone. 00:13:57.482 --> 00:13:59.672 The next one you're letting them watch for a little bit, but then 00:13:59.672 --> 00:14:00.902 again telling them what to do. 00:14:01.292 --> 00:14:04.262 And then the third one is actually that voluntary disengagement part 00:14:04.262 --> 00:14:07.232 where that's what I find almost everybody, including myself, wants 00:14:07.232 --> 00:14:10.142 to get to where they don't have to constantly tell their dog what to do. 00:14:10.142 --> 00:14:12.092 Like the dog can swap the squirrel. 00:14:12.517 --> 00:14:15.877 Without your you intervening at all, they still never go after it. 00:14:16.447 --> 00:14:20.407 I still encourage rewarding that every single time it happens 00:14:20.407 --> 00:14:21.967 just to keep the behavior strong. 00:14:22.417 --> 00:14:26.137 But yeah, typically once they get it, like a lot of people stay in that phase three. 00:14:26.437 --> 00:14:31.177 There can sometimes be, I guess, a few animals that trigger your dog more. 00:14:31.627 --> 00:14:35.077 Um, like we, there's a, it's called Elk Island here, and there's a 00:14:35.077 --> 00:14:36.607 bunch of bison that are out there. 00:14:36.847 --> 00:14:39.817 My dog hadn't seen one for like three years, so when she was first 00:14:39.817 --> 00:14:41.197 looking at that, I think it was so. 00:14:41.957 --> 00:14:45.947 Unique and interesting to her that she was like, and it starts creeping towards it. 00:14:46.187 --> 00:14:49.637 So in that case then you go back and like cue her to leave it and there's no issue. 00:14:49.997 --> 00:14:52.367 So I always say like, you'll still have that cue for life as 00:14:52.367 --> 00:14:54.437 that emergency if you need it. 00:14:54.647 --> 00:14:57.707 But yeah, most people, once their dog gets it, you don't have to ask for the 00:14:57.707 --> 00:14:59.297 behavior anymore, which is so nice. 00:14:59.327 --> 00:14:59.782 'cause yeah. 00:15:00.017 --> 00:15:03.437 Um, yeah, I don't know if you where you are, but I, I do a 00:15:03.437 --> 00:15:04.907 lot of hiking with my dog and. 00:15:05.122 --> 00:15:06.952 Preferably off leash if I can let her. 00:15:06.952 --> 00:15:08.752 So, and it's Canadian Rockies. 00:15:08.752 --> 00:15:11.932 There's some pretty big cliffs that would be quite dangerous if she ran 00:15:11.932 --> 00:15:13.462 off the side and chased her rodent. 00:15:13.462 --> 00:15:16.552 So that's my goal is to get to the point where like no matter what we 00:15:16.552 --> 00:15:19.642 see on that hike, she's gonna leave it alone without me, me having to 00:15:19.642 --> 00:15:21.112 notice it at the same time as her. 00:15:21.622 --> 00:15:25.192 Anke: See that's the piece, like it is almost like, you know, for the dog not 00:15:25.192 --> 00:15:26.782 having to remind, that's one thing. 00:15:26.782 --> 00:15:32.302 But it's also what you just said, like, oh, I don't have to notice this. 00:15:32.302 --> 00:15:33.202 Notice it first. 00:15:34.022 --> 00:15:36.332 Stephanie: Yeah, it's, you know, because it's, it's exhausting to 00:15:36.332 --> 00:15:41.072 constantly be scanning for squirrels and rabbits and deer and all those things. 00:15:41.072 --> 00:15:43.202 Like, you know, you kind of feel like you have to like, yeah. 00:15:43.202 --> 00:15:44.792 Find it before your dog does. 00:15:44.792 --> 00:15:48.842 And it's pretty hard to enjoy a walk or a hike if you're on edge the whole time. 00:15:48.842 --> 00:15:53.042 So if I do notice, like on a hike or walk, now that my dog sees a squirrel 00:15:53.047 --> 00:15:56.012 and completely lose it alone, I'll still mark and reward that behavior. 00:15:56.042 --> 00:15:58.502 'cause I want her to still continue to remember like. 00:15:58.542 --> 00:15:59.292 That's great. 00:15:59.322 --> 00:15:59.922 Thank you. 00:16:00.522 --> 00:16:03.942 But I, I, I don't have to tell her what to do anymore. 00:16:04.032 --> 00:16:04.452 Anke: Yeah. 00:16:04.692 --> 00:16:05.082 Wow. 00:16:05.082 --> 00:16:07.447 That's, I mean, that, that seems like such a. 00:16:09.242 --> 00:16:10.112 Wish come true. 00:16:10.172 --> 00:16:13.232 You know, like if you have, especially when you're like, yeah, when you 00:16:13.232 --> 00:16:16.532 have a dog that really where you like, I'm just thinking, oh God, Leo. 00:16:16.532 --> 00:16:17.222 Yeah, yeah. 00:16:17.222 --> 00:16:19.832 You know, like how many times on a hike that I wouldn't let him off 00:16:19.832 --> 00:16:23.972 eat because I knew well there is like little things crawling around 00:16:23.972 --> 00:16:25.442 and he'd be after them, you know? 00:16:25.442 --> 00:16:25.957 And I, yeah. 00:16:26.552 --> 00:16:26.972 Yeah. 00:16:26.972 --> 00:16:29.942 So it would, it really makes the difference. 00:16:31.022 --> 00:16:35.057 You know, and so you were, you, obviously we've chatted before, but what 00:16:35.312 --> 00:16:40.562 what really struck me was, you know, obviously you, you kind of discovered 00:16:40.562 --> 00:16:45.212 it on your own dog that you try with a whole bunch of clients', dogs, and now 00:16:45.332 --> 00:16:49.142 that somebody can actually buy the book and doesn't actually need your input. 00:16:49.202 --> 00:16:54.332 Like you can, like the book is clear enough for people to follow the steps 00:16:54.332 --> 00:16:56.552 and actually, you know, have a go. 00:16:57.527 --> 00:17:00.677 Themselves and a good chance of actually figuring out this out. 00:17:00.797 --> 00:17:02.027 How Yeah. 00:17:02.027 --> 00:17:06.042 Did you managed to do, that's this such difficult task? 00:17:06.952 --> 00:17:10.547 Stephanie: This book is like a decade in the making because my own dolly trainer 00:17:10.547 --> 00:17:11.897 about a decade ago and the same thing. 00:17:11.897 --> 00:17:15.737 And then I've worked with a lot of one-on-one private clients where, you 00:17:15.737 --> 00:17:19.097 know, coaching them in person through the program seen it be successful. 00:17:19.097 --> 00:17:22.157 So it gave me a lot of confidence that it wasn't just my, my 00:17:22.157 --> 00:17:23.747 one-off experience with my dog. 00:17:23.747 --> 00:17:25.697 Like I've worked with Sighthounds, I've worked with terriers, a 00:17:25.697 --> 00:17:26.897 lot of like those stereotypical. 00:17:27.717 --> 00:17:30.297 And it's been successful across the board. 00:17:30.837 --> 00:17:33.957 Um, but that was still kind of in my brain of like, well, I'm still there. 00:17:34.107 --> 00:17:37.347 Queuing the human and helping them privately. 00:17:37.887 --> 00:17:40.617 How do you make this into something that people can just follow at home? 00:17:40.617 --> 00:17:44.697 So about a year ago, I released a digital version of the guide, 00:17:44.727 --> 00:17:46.467 sort of as a tester to see that. 00:17:46.797 --> 00:17:49.017 Completely without me helping them at all. 00:17:49.017 --> 00:17:50.997 How successful is it for people at home? 00:17:50.997 --> 00:17:54.837 And it's been really cool getting videos from people that like this. 00:17:54.837 --> 00:17:58.802 This one person sent me a video and she was crying because there was a, I think it 00:17:58.802 --> 00:18:02.247 was a squirrel or a cat, I can't remember, but across the road from her dog and 00:18:02.247 --> 00:18:03.717 her dog looked at it and this dog was. 00:18:04.682 --> 00:18:08.942 Terrible before, like instantly went after everything and just ignored it. 00:18:09.062 --> 00:18:11.312 Looked back at her for the reward and like continued on 00:18:11.312 --> 00:18:12.932 the walk and she was like, wow. 00:18:13.562 --> 00:18:16.112 So that was when I was like, oh, okay, this actually really works without 00:18:16.112 --> 00:18:20.222 me being there, coaching people one-on-one and now it's in a print 00:18:20.222 --> 00:18:21.902 book, which I'm very excited about. 00:18:21.902 --> 00:18:22.172 So. 00:18:22.232 --> 00:18:23.732 I think's very cool. 00:18:23.732 --> 00:18:25.592 It's a little bit of a different format. 00:18:25.592 --> 00:18:28.742 Like I have a lot of picture examples and stuff in there, and then I 00:18:28.742 --> 00:18:30.422 myself am a huge visual learner. 00:18:30.422 --> 00:18:33.182 Like, can, I can hear people talk about it and I can read text and 00:18:33.182 --> 00:18:36.782 kind of get some gist of it, but I really need to see it happen. 00:18:36.782 --> 00:18:37.412 So yeah. 00:18:37.472 --> 00:18:40.292 The, um, there's also video links for all the training steps so that 00:18:40.292 --> 00:18:43.292 you can actually watch a dog doing it and make sure that, you know, 00:18:43.352 --> 00:18:44.882 you at home are doing it correctly. 00:18:44.972 --> 00:18:47.642 Anke: Yeah, because I think that's, as you said before, right, you know, 00:18:47.642 --> 00:18:49.502 it's, it's important to do it right. 00:18:49.682 --> 00:18:52.022 You know, so I would imagine like timing matters. 00:18:52.042 --> 00:18:53.457 Speed matters very much. 00:18:53.577 --> 00:18:55.972 Distance matters, and that's like really hard to describe. 00:18:55.972 --> 00:18:59.932 So the videos are really, really making a mu like a huge difference. 00:19:00.652 --> 00:19:01.012 Stephanie: Yeah. 00:19:01.012 --> 00:19:03.502 And then there's so many other extra factors, like, you know, if there's 00:19:03.502 --> 00:19:06.712 a bunny just kind of hanging out, eating grass versus a bunny that's 00:19:06.712 --> 00:19:10.252 running, like, those are two very different triggers, levels for your dog. 00:19:10.252 --> 00:19:13.372 So learning how to factor that into your training and stuff like that. 00:19:14.482 --> 00:19:15.247 Anke: Yeah, I mean. 00:19:18.902 --> 00:19:21.812 I'm just thinking like, yeah, I've got a, we've got a cat over here. 00:19:21.812 --> 00:19:25.022 And so she would, she actually uses my car to get onto the 00:19:25.022 --> 00:19:27.002 wall where she like, you know. 00:19:27.212 --> 00:19:27.542 Yep. 00:19:27.542 --> 00:19:28.082 See you. 00:19:28.382 --> 00:19:33.002 Uh, you know, like, do you find people have accidents in the sense where their 00:19:33.002 --> 00:19:36.752 dog actually catches whatever it is, is, I mean, does that happen often 00:19:36.752 --> 00:19:38.312 in the training or is pretty well. 00:19:39.197 --> 00:19:39.557 Stephanie: No. 00:19:39.557 --> 00:19:42.017 So I do suggest always like during the training, keeping your dog on 00:19:42.017 --> 00:19:44.117 leash to prevent that from happening. 00:19:44.297 --> 00:19:46.967 'cause again, especially if they get to the, in the predatory 00:19:46.967 --> 00:19:48.707 sequence, the chasing is part of it. 00:19:48.887 --> 00:19:50.717 But if they actually get to do the grab bite. 00:19:51.032 --> 00:19:54.242 Preferably not kill by like the whole dissect that, you know, the gross 00:19:54.242 --> 00:19:57.092 part that we think about, if they actually get to finish that sweet 00:19:57.152 --> 00:20:00.362 sequence, it's even more rewarding than just the chasing itself. 00:20:00.632 --> 00:20:03.752 So if your dog actually ends up grabbing that animal that it's 00:20:03.752 --> 00:20:06.632 chasing, that's much more rewarding. 00:20:06.632 --> 00:20:09.752 And again, like you're, you need to prevent that while you're 00:20:09.752 --> 00:20:10.892 training the new behavior behaviors. 00:20:10.892 --> 00:20:13.712 I would say there's management, which is prevent the old undesirable. 00:20:13.712 --> 00:20:16.022 And there's training where you're building new, desirable 00:20:16.472 --> 00:20:17.972 this in order for it to work. 00:20:18.132 --> 00:20:21.827 You need to add management and um, it's kind of like an analogy I often 00:20:21.827 --> 00:20:25.247 give as a joke, but if you were trying to eat less cookies, like not having 00:20:25.247 --> 00:20:28.277 them sitting on your kitchen counter is gonna be much more successful. 00:20:28.277 --> 00:20:28.637 Right. 00:20:28.637 --> 00:20:30.107 Than like easy access. 00:20:30.107 --> 00:20:34.187 So thinking about that for your dog too, I mean, we often equate them to like toddler 00:20:34.187 --> 00:20:36.407 brains in terms of their mental capacity. 00:20:36.407 --> 00:20:41.837 Like they really need a break from rehearsing that old undesirable behavior 00:20:41.867 --> 00:20:43.127 while they try to learn something new. 00:20:43.127 --> 00:20:44.897 It's hard for 'em to do both at the same time. 00:20:45.407 --> 00:20:45.767 Anke: Yeah. 00:20:45.857 --> 00:20:46.877 I mean, you know. 00:20:47.297 --> 00:20:48.407 Like we are too. 00:20:48.407 --> 00:20:48.707 Right? 00:20:48.707 --> 00:20:50.177 It's not really that different. 00:20:50.177 --> 00:20:50.477 So 00:20:50.507 --> 00:20:52.367 Stephanie: yeah, like for habit building, right? 00:20:52.367 --> 00:20:55.967 Like you, we, we really, really need to be sometimes taken outta that context 00:20:55.967 --> 00:20:58.547 where, yeah, we'll say unsuccessful. 00:20:59.612 --> 00:21:00.302 Anke: Yeah, no. 00:21:00.302 --> 00:21:03.422 I mean if you look at the cookie example, you know, like your first 00:21:03.422 --> 00:21:04.742 step is stop running, buying them. 00:21:04.982 --> 00:21:05.132 Right? 00:21:06.152 --> 00:21:08.612 You know, if you don't have that of them in the house, like, you know, 00:21:08.612 --> 00:21:12.542 that's much easier managed than if you have the cookie jar right here. 00:21:12.782 --> 00:21:18.632 So where can people go and get the book and um, you know, find out more about 00:21:18.632 --> 00:21:21.032 you and your work and connect with you? 00:21:21.032 --> 00:21:21.362 Yeah. 00:21:23.057 --> 00:21:23.837 Stephanie: So different place. 00:21:23.837 --> 00:21:27.167 So I'd say like my website's Happy Hounds dog training.ca. 00:21:27.287 --> 00:21:29.867 Um, although links are there, that might be the easiest. 00:21:30.317 --> 00:21:33.257 Um, they also have links on my YouTube channel, so that one's 00:21:33.257 --> 00:21:34.697 Happy Hounds dog training as well. 00:21:35.117 --> 00:21:37.667 And then also right now the print book's available on Amazon. 00:21:37.817 --> 00:21:40.697 Um, I am in the work, so trying to get it through more distributors, 00:21:40.697 --> 00:21:44.357 but Amazon, unsurprisingly is just the fastest to set up. 00:21:44.357 --> 00:21:46.067 So currently that's the only spot. 00:21:46.067 --> 00:21:47.987 It's for sale, but there will be more as well. 00:21:48.992 --> 00:21:49.442 Anke: Awesome. 00:21:49.502 --> 00:21:51.302 Well, that's, I'm gonna just go get it. 00:21:51.337 --> 00:21:55.202 I like hope it's available in Spain already because sometimes it, it, like 00:21:55.202 --> 00:21:57.272 that takes a while to trickle around. 00:21:57.632 --> 00:21:58.442 But, um, yeah, I've 00:21:58.442 --> 00:22:01.832 Stephanie: seen a few places, like, I think Australia's still pending and 00:22:01.862 --> 00:22:05.102 there's a few countries, but it's, it's, it's making its way worldwide 00:22:05.102 --> 00:22:07.142 now, which is really exciting actually. 00:22:07.922 --> 00:22:08.552 Anke: I love it. 00:22:08.552 --> 00:22:08.942 I love it. 00:22:08.942 --> 00:22:12.872 And it's such a, yeah, it's such a big problem for so many people, you know? 00:22:12.872 --> 00:22:19.472 And so many dogs are having less freedom or less independence because you know, 00:22:19.472 --> 00:22:23.732 if we can't trust them not to go after, you know, whatever, across the street 00:22:23.732 --> 00:22:26.852 or whatever, then, then it just makes everybody's world so much smaller. 00:22:26.852 --> 00:22:29.582 So thank you for writing the book, and thank you for coming 00:22:30.062 --> 00:22:31.472 on the show to talk about it. 00:22:32.432 --> 00:22:32.672 Stephanie: Yeah. 00:22:32.677 --> 00:22:33.567 Thank you for having me. 00:22:34.304 --> 00:22:35.564 Thanks so much for listening. 00:22:36.044 --> 00:22:40.154 If you enjoyed the episode, don't forget to subscribe and leave a review 00:22:40.154 --> 00:22:42.314 so other dog lovers can find the show. 00:22:43.034 --> 00:22:47.414 If you haven't already, head over to Soul touched by dogs.com 00:22:47.744 --> 00:22:52.544 and sign up for weekly dog cuteness tips, recommendations, and personal 00:22:52.544 --> 00:22:55.064 stories to warm your dog loving heart. 00:22:55.634 --> 00:22:58.784 And if you know a poor human you think I should interview. 00:22:59.189 --> 00:23:00.299 I'd love an introduction. 00:23:00.779 --> 00:23:02.159 Email me at Anke. 00:23:02.849 --> 00:23:07.144 That's a NKE at Soul touched by dogs.com.