Welcome to the Soul Touched by Dogs Podcast, the show for dog lovers who
see dogs not as toys or tools, but wise souls worth our respect and care.
I'm Uncle Herrmann and I'm your host.
I talk to wholesome humans, people who do great work for dogs and their people.
So come and join us for today's conversation.
Anke: Hello and welcome Stephanie.
I'm like super excited to have you here.
Stephanie: Me too.
Thank you for having me.
Anke: Well, I actually, you know, saw a post of yours and I.
P and say, Hey, I want you on the show and you, I'm excited.
So let people know where are you in this lovely world?
And you know, what's your business with dogs and why did IP.
Stephanie: Um, so I am in Alberta, Canada.
Uh, my business is Happy House Dog Training, so I'm the trainer and owner.
It's just a one person company.
Um, I also put a lot of tutorials online, so I feel like I'm, I'm best
known through the YouTube world, but you pounced on me because I think you
saw an announcement that I wrote a book,
Anke: so I did indeed.
Yeah.
So, you know, tell us about, tell us about the book or the topic of the book.
Stephanie: So it's, um, inspired by my own dog, Nera.
Uh, she was 10 when I wrote at 11 now, but when she was younger,
she was a, I politely say she was a menace with animals.
Like if it moved, she chased everything.
So it was squirrels, cats, like my hair, garbage, anything.
If it moved, she had to go get it and it was, it was an
interesting experience for me.
Um, I don't know if you wanna go into sort of back history, but I actually
grew up, my mom was a dog trainer.
But in the compulsion side, so using a lot of very heavy corrections.
And that was sort of what I grew up knowing.
But I didn't wanna do that with my own dog.
So this book is the process that I came up with to train her prey drive
and to stop chasing animals, but completely with reward-based training.
So, wow.
Anke: I think this is like anybody with a dog, with, you know, with a, a
chaser dog is going like, oh my God.
Like, tell me more.
Tell me more.
You.
Like, what breeds your dog?
Because if I look at Chase, I was like, oh, this is like some Aussie
sheep dog or something like, you know, is it also, are there breeds
that are more prone to chasing?
Definitely.
And um, you know, what did you do with, like, how did you come up with the method?
Like how did that evolve?
Stephanie: Yeah, so, um, my, my own dog, she's a corky cattle dog, so
two herding breeds mixed into one.
I, I joke that as a puppy, her name was, leave it because I was constantly
being like, leave that alone.
Leave that alone.
Like, and it's one of those things too where you know her chasing it in.
It's completely fair.
We bred dogs like especially herding breeds to go after the animals that
they see so they can motivate and move livestock like she, she's bred for
this, but in my, uh, my tiny condo in the city, it wasn't an ideal behavior.
So that's why I always joke is like, you know, understand why
your dog acts the way they do.
And I think that's why we also need to train it kindly because.
We asked our dogs to act like this back in the day, throughout
history, it's really helped us.
But nowadays, especially with most of my clients living in a large city like we
now deem it a very undesirable behavior.
Anke: Yeah, that's, I mean, that's so true.
And I mean, do you even think it's fair to bring, like, I'm laughing.
Where do you suggest somebody starts?
You know, like if I have a dog who goes, you know, I have one she likes kind of.
She is lovely with everyone.
As long as you're not a cat.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Yeah.
I had a cat at home at the time too, so that was also not ideal.
Yeah.
Anke: So you knew.
That you didn't wanna do it your mom's way.
Right.
So what was the evolution of like, what did you try first and where do, where,
where was the first time that you go, oh, here's something else that might work.
Stephanie: So interesting.
Like, I had a dog before Nera, he was a rescue.
Um.
The shelter was actually gonna euthanize him 'cause he just had ex, they
call it extreme behavioral concerns.
Like he wasn't fit for a home.
But I took him on and I found it very, very interesting.
Like he had separation anxiety and resource guardian.
He was leash reactive.
Like pretty much if there's the checklist of every behavior you can have, he had it.
And that was my first experience of not wanting to use
corrections to change anything.
'cause I just, I loved that little dog so much.
So he was kind of my first experience.
Finding out that there was even other things, Zach George was my first
kind of experience into the forestry world, and then it went from there.
But just realizing that yeah, you actually can change behavior by giving a dog
something that they want, like treats.
And I think I had to realize, I.
The example I often give, and I hope it doesn't come across as rude, but I always
say like, if you don't use something properly, you can't expect it to work.
So the analogy I often give is like, if you're holding a vacuum upside down, you
can't expect it to clean your floors.
And as somebody that started off in the correction base world, I think I.
The way that you usually do it is you set the dog up to fail so that
there's something to correct, right?
Like that's sort of the old school way of training.
Force free or rewards-based training has to be the exact opposite where
you're setting the dog up to succeed so that you can reward that behavior
and then progress from there.
But if you immediately put a dog into a situation they can't handle.
It's gonna fail, and it's not the method that's failing, it's to the handler.
So that's so,
Anke: that's so true.
But actually that brings up a really interesting, uh, point because, uh,
I don't try to indulge in the endless arguments between dog trainers, you
know, but there is always like the biggest pushback that I see that,
you know, force free methods get.
Yeah, but that doesn't work with a real tough case, right?
Yeah.
And I think the, I mean, most of the time I think they refer more to aggressive
kind of behavior, but, but the chasing is a pretty tough one, you know?
I think.
Yeah.
So it's so instinctual for them.
Yeah.
So I mean, how does one, you know, if I'm now just even like imagining mine go
off the cat, like where do I even start?
Stephanie: Yeah, so I was, for my program, like the three things, I
say there's three components and you have to use all three if you want.
Success is the first one.
So management, preventing the behavior.
So I had a cat at home when I was, when I was doing this training, and so I was
using things like baby gates or closing doors, just so she can't rehearse that fun
behavior of going after the cat because.
We can talk more about like the pre dry sequence, but when they actually get
to chase, and especially if they get to catch that animal, it's so rewarding.
Like there's like a huge chemical cocktail that gets released
that feels so good for the dog.
But if we're talking about positive reinforcement, like that behavior.
They rewarded themselves heavily.
So I always tell people like the first thing if you want success is you have
to find ways to stop that behavior.
Um, there's a lot of off leash parks here.
I would take her to when she was a puppy.
We stopped temporarily going to those and just doing all leash walks instead.
Stuff like that.
And then we can go more into like depth about the training system.
But again, it's that concept of like starting where your dog can be successful,
building up a huge reward history, and then making it harder and harder.
So my dog now can be two feet from a running squirrel and.
Nothing like it's, but if you start trying to train there, you're gonna fail.
And then I also suggest, um, replacement outlets is what I call it.
Some people would call it enrichment.
It's kind of universal.
But if you're gonna take away something that a dog instinctually does, you two
have to satisfy that behavior elsewhere.
Like you can't expect your dog.
To not be a dog.
You have to find ways to set them up where they always say like, let your dog be a
little wolf for 10 to 20 minutes a day, and they're gonna be so much happier.
And a lot of people, I think, worry that if you offer games and toys
that kind of mimic that predatory behavior, you're gonna make it worse.
But I always say it's like a pre drive battery, where the more you offer
outlets for it, the less need they have with real animals like squirrels.
Anke: That's interesting because I actually, um, years ago I came across
natural dog training with Kevin Behan.
I don't know whether you, you know, he's in the us but anyway, he like, very
similar to you, like his dad was a dog trainer, you know, very much like the
military or the, like police dogs and, you know, aversive like the, the kind
of stuff that they did in the fifties.
Right.
And so he.
There's something wrong here.
Wrong, you know, there's something that theory doesn't add up, right?
So, and he developed his method, which was very much based around the pre drive.
He always called it it's ener emotion, energy in motion.
And so when I had this one first, like the thing that he always said, like, you need
to give him something to bite into, right?
Yes.
And so it was literally that, it's almost, it's that.
I got it right.
And to this day, I don't carry even treats on the walk I carry, um, like a rope toy?
Yeah.
You know, with a big knot in it.
So when she sees a cat and she knows now, she kind of looks at the.
And then she looks and, and then she bites into the thing.
So she gets her, she gets her reward in a sense.
Like she gets the outlet biting in that, in that thing, you know,
and that's worked really well.
And that kind of feels like it's going in that same direction
that you are talking about.
Right.
It makes a lot of sense to me.
Yeah.
With that experience.
Yeah.
Stephanie: Yeah.
I think I've been, like, we talked about rewards based training and like the, the
stereotypical way is treats and like I do.
Typically, eventually use those.
But one thing I talk about in the book is um, I call it functional rewards.
I've heard different terms, but it's basically anything that meets
the dog's needs, but also gives them what they want in that moment.
And the example I often give, 'cause I think it's easiest to understand, is
like if it was a really hot summer day and you're walking your dog next to a
river and you wanted to call them back to you, like that dry treat that you
have in your pocket is not gonna be what they want compared to like going and
drinking in the water, going for a swim.
So if you can use the release into that river as the reward, I.
That's a functional reward, and it's exactly what you
just described with a toy.
So same thing like I found there was like I could bring steak on the walk
when my dog was a puppy and like she's still gonna choose a squirrel even
when I'm doing the training correctly.
But once I started bringing a fur toy, so she actually got to use those instincts
on something that she kind of got that little taste of what she actually
wanted, which is to hunt an animal.
So.
Anke: I love that, that makes so much sense.
You know?
Yeah.
And so how, how, how slow is slow enough with this, because I think a big
temptation for people is always like to sort of skip ahead, you know, how, how
slow would that, like what, how long does it normally take to get a chaser to,
to, you know, learn something different?
Stephanie: Yeah, I think it's always such a hard question to answer
'cause it really depends on the dog.
And I also often find like the severity of the behavior doesn't necessarily
equate to how long it really takes.
Like I had one sight hound, um, client, they hired me and their
dog was indoor chasing their cat.
And like, if caught was not being kind like it was, it was really concerning.
But that dog took a week and a half like it.
Completely stop chasing the cat in a week and a half.
That is not the normal, right?
So like that was an extreme version of the behavior.
But as soon as the dog got it, it just got it.
My own dog took a few months.
So I would say like give yourself two or three months to really expect a lot.
And like kind of it's your dog is gonna determine the pace, right?
Not you
Anke: that, yeah, that makes so much sense.
But I think even the hope, even knowing that it's possible.
You know?
Yeah.
'cause I think how often will people just go, oh, well that's
my, that's just like nature.
Like that's just how it is and I'm just gonna, you.
Stephanie: I think that's part of why I wrote the book is I feel like
it is one of those behaviors that is genuinely concerning for people, right?
Like if you're a dog, chases a squirrel across a busy road, there's
a huge risk of injury for that dog.
Like there's real consequences to the behavior.
So a lot of people will start to think, well, if there's no other way, it's.
Better to use painful corrections than have a dog potentially
get hit by a car or whatever.
And I just wanted to explain that there's a very, very viable, effective
other option and it's, it's really kind and like the training's fun.
I think that's the other thing is I found a lot of people that once they start on
the program, it gets such a good time that you're having with your dog that
you stop thinking like, okay, is it gonna take three weeks or is it gonna take four?
Right?
Like you just actually enjoy the process and Yeah.
Anke: So, and also like.
That's actually, that just reminds me like, yeah, Mr.
Layer was like a little rodent hunter, you know?
So when he was like out in the mountains, I, I actually then ended
up not letting him off in the woods anymore because he would be like
that, like you could yell after him.
You could really notice like he was on a hunt now.
Like I was no longer in his world.
I could just.
Yell my little heart out and he wouldn't even register.
So yeah, totally.
Now what I'm curious about is, so you just said something, you said like, oh,
and then he got it right and he got it.
So is that typical that like, once they kind of understand that, oh no, this
little rabbit is not for me, or is this something that needs to be practiced
or, or kind of like maintained, like, you know, like a language, like if you
don't use it, lose it kind of thing?
Or is it once you get it, you get it?
Stephanie: So I always say like, I need a really difficult skill like this.
Once they get it.
So like there's three phases for the training.
The way that I teach it, the first one, you're immediately queuing
the dog, like you're telling them to leave that animal alone.
The next one you're letting them watch for a little bit, but then
again telling them what to do.
And then the third one is actually that voluntary disengagement part
where that's what I find almost everybody, including myself, wants
to get to where they don't have to constantly tell their dog what to do.
Like the dog can swap the squirrel.
Without your you intervening at all, they still never go after it.
I still encourage rewarding that every single time it happens
just to keep the behavior strong.
But yeah, typically once they get it, like a lot of people stay in that phase three.
There can sometimes be, I guess, a few animals that trigger your dog more.
Um, like we, there's a, it's called Elk Island here, and there's a
bunch of bison that are out there.
My dog hadn't seen one for like three years, so when she was first
looking at that, I think it was so.
Unique and interesting to her that she was like, and it starts creeping towards it.
So in that case then you go back and like cue her to leave it and there's no issue.
So I always say like, you'll still have that cue for life as
that emergency if you need it.
But yeah, most people, once their dog gets it, you don't have to ask for the
behavior anymore, which is so nice.
'cause yeah.
Um, yeah, I don't know if you where you are, but I, I do a
lot of hiking with my dog and.
Preferably off leash if I can let her.
So, and it's Canadian Rockies.
There's some pretty big cliffs that would be quite dangerous if she ran
off the side and chased her rodent.
So that's my goal is to get to the point where like no matter what we
see on that hike, she's gonna leave it alone without me, me having to
notice it at the same time as her.
Anke: See that's the piece, like it is almost like, you know, for the dog not
having to remind, that's one thing.
But it's also what you just said, like, oh, I don't have to notice this.
Notice it first.
Stephanie: Yeah, it's, you know, because it's, it's exhausting to
constantly be scanning for squirrels and rabbits and deer and all those things.
Like, you know, you kind of feel like you have to like, yeah.
Find it before your dog does.
And it's pretty hard to enjoy a walk or a hike if you're on edge the whole time.
So if I do notice, like on a hike or walk, now that my dog sees a squirrel
and completely lose it alone, I'll still mark and reward that behavior.
'cause I want her to still continue to remember like.
That's great.
Thank you.
But I, I, I don't have to tell her what to do anymore.
Anke: Yeah.
Wow.
That's, I mean, that, that seems like such a.
Wish come true.
You know, like if you have, especially when you're like, yeah, when you
have a dog that really where you like, I'm just thinking, oh God, Leo.
Yeah, yeah.
You know, like how many times on a hike that I wouldn't let him off
eat because I knew well there is like little things crawling around
and he'd be after them, you know?
And I, yeah.
Yeah.
So it would, it really makes the difference.
You know, and so you were, you, obviously we've chatted before, but what
what really struck me was, you know, obviously you, you kind of discovered
it on your own dog that you try with a whole bunch of clients', dogs, and now
that somebody can actually buy the book and doesn't actually need your input.
Like you can, like the book is clear enough for people to follow the steps
and actually, you know, have a go.
Themselves and a good chance of actually figuring out this out.
How Yeah.
Did you managed to do, that's this such difficult task?
Stephanie: This book is like a decade in the making because my own dolly trainer
about a decade ago and the same thing.
And then I've worked with a lot of one-on-one private clients where, you
know, coaching them in person through the program seen it be successful.
So it gave me a lot of confidence that it wasn't just my, my
one-off experience with my dog.
Like I've worked with Sighthounds, I've worked with terriers, a
lot of like those stereotypical.
And it's been successful across the board.
Um, but that was still kind of in my brain of like, well, I'm still there.
Queuing the human and helping them privately.
How do you make this into something that people can just follow at home?
So about a year ago, I released a digital version of the guide,
sort of as a tester to see that.
Completely without me helping them at all.
How successful is it for people at home?
And it's been really cool getting videos from people that like this.
This one person sent me a video and she was crying because there was a, I think it
was a squirrel or a cat, I can't remember, but across the road from her dog and
her dog looked at it and this dog was.
Terrible before, like instantly went after everything and just ignored it.
Looked back at her for the reward and like continued on
the walk and she was like, wow.
So that was when I was like, oh, okay, this actually really works without
me being there, coaching people one-on-one and now it's in a print
book, which I'm very excited about.
So.
I think's very cool.
It's a little bit of a different format.
Like I have a lot of picture examples and stuff in there, and then I
myself am a huge visual learner.
Like, can, I can hear people talk about it and I can read text and
kind of get some gist of it, but I really need to see it happen.
So yeah.
The, um, there's also video links for all the training steps so that
you can actually watch a dog doing it and make sure that, you know,
you at home are doing it correctly.
Anke: Yeah, because I think that's, as you said before, right, you know,
it's, it's important to do it right.
You know, so I would imagine like timing matters.
Speed matters very much.
Distance matters, and that's like really hard to describe.
So the videos are really, really making a mu like a huge difference.
Stephanie: Yeah.
And then there's so many other extra factors, like, you know, if there's
a bunny just kind of hanging out, eating grass versus a bunny that's
running, like, those are two very different triggers, levels for your dog.
So learning how to factor that into your training and stuff like that.
Anke: Yeah, I mean.
I'm just thinking like, yeah, I've got a, we've got a cat over here.
And so she would, she actually uses my car to get onto the
wall where she like, you know.
Yep.
See you.
Uh, you know, like, do you find people have accidents in the sense where their
dog actually catches whatever it is, is, I mean, does that happen often
in the training or is pretty well.
Stephanie: No.
So I do suggest always like during the training, keeping your dog on
leash to prevent that from happening.
'cause again, especially if they get to the, in the predatory
sequence, the chasing is part of it.
But if they actually get to do the grab bite.
Preferably not kill by like the whole dissect that, you know, the gross
part that we think about, if they actually get to finish that sweet
sequence, it's even more rewarding than just the chasing itself.
So if your dog actually ends up grabbing that animal that it's
chasing, that's much more rewarding.
And again, like you're, you need to prevent that while you're
training the new behavior behaviors.
I would say there's management, which is prevent the old undesirable.
And there's training where you're building new, desirable
this in order for it to work.
You need to add management and um, it's kind of like an analogy I often
give as a joke, but if you were trying to eat less cookies, like not having
them sitting on your kitchen counter is gonna be much more successful.
Right.
Than like easy access.
So thinking about that for your dog too, I mean, we often equate them to like toddler
brains in terms of their mental capacity.
Like they really need a break from rehearsing that old undesirable behavior
while they try to learn something new.
It's hard for 'em to do both at the same time.
Anke: Yeah.
I mean, you know.
Like we are too.
Right?
It's not really that different.
So
Stephanie: yeah, like for habit building, right?
Like you, we, we really, really need to be sometimes taken outta that context
where, yeah, we'll say unsuccessful.
Anke: Yeah, no.
I mean if you look at the cookie example, you know, like your first
step is stop running, buying them.
Right?
You know, if you don't have that of them in the house, like, you know,
that's much easier managed than if you have the cookie jar right here.
So where can people go and get the book and um, you know, find out more about
you and your work and connect with you?
Yeah.
Stephanie: So different place.
So I'd say like my website's Happy Hounds dog training.ca.
Um, although links are there, that might be the easiest.
Um, they also have links on my YouTube channel, so that one's
Happy Hounds dog training as well.
And then also right now the print book's available on Amazon.
Um, I am in the work, so trying to get it through more distributors,
but Amazon, unsurprisingly is just the fastest to set up.
So currently that's the only spot.
It's for sale, but there will be more as well.
Anke: Awesome.
Well, that's, I'm gonna just go get it.
I like hope it's available in Spain already because sometimes it, it, like
that takes a while to trickle around.
But, um, yeah, I've
Stephanie: seen a few places, like, I think Australia's still pending and
there's a few countries, but it's, it's, it's making its way worldwide
now, which is really exciting actually.
Anke: I love it.
I love it.
And it's such a, yeah, it's such a big problem for so many people, you know?
And so many dogs are having less freedom or less independence because you know,
if we can't trust them not to go after, you know, whatever, across the street
or whatever, then, then it just makes everybody's world so much smaller.
So thank you for writing the book, and thank you for coming
on the show to talk about it.
Stephanie: Yeah.
Thank you for having me.
Thanks so much for listening.
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That's a NKE at Soul touched by dogs.com.