Books and Bites Podcast, Ep. 114: Discussing So Far Gone by Jess Walter ------------------------------------------------------------ Carrie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Books and Bites podcast. Each month, we bring you book recommendations and discuss the bites and beverages to pair with them. I'm Carrie Green, and I'm here with my co-host, Michael Cunningham, and our special guest, Charlotte Blakeman. Michael: Hello. Charlotte: Hi. It's great to be here. Carrie: So Jacqueline is taking a break this month, and so we appreciate you filling in, Charlotte. Do you want to tell listeners a little bit about what you do here at the library? Charlotte: Sure, yeah. I am the Access Librarian, and I am a manager of the team that handles our customer service at the main customer service desk in the library. I also manage the team that does all of our collection maintenance and collection development. So that involves purchasing our materials, cataloging, shelving our books. I also manage all of our online resources that you have access to on our website. Carrie: That's right. And you manage Michael and me as well. [Laughter] Michael: Yes, she is the boss- Charlotte: That is true ... Michael: our [00:01:00] boss. Carrie: So we have to be on our best behavior on this episode. [Laughter] Michael: I'll try. Carrie: We do wanna remind everyone, spring bingo is almost over. Michael, do you want to- Michael: Sure ... Carrie: talk about that? Michael: So we are coming up on finishing up our second bingo card. You can turn those in by the end of the month at the customer service desk. And when you turn them in, make sure that you ask for your special bookmark. We just made some couple weeks ago, and they look very nice. So make sure you get them while they last. Carrie: Yeah. So we do have a different design from the winter bingo, so you'll wanna collect all four. Michael: Yeah. [Laughter] Carrie: Just like a Happy Meal. You want to get- Michael: It's like Pokemon. [Laughter] Carrie: Yes. Yeah, and I, you know, we heard from a few people on our Facebook group that didn't pick up their winter bookmark. We did have a few of those left. So if for some reason [00:02:00] you did not pick one up, you can still get that. All right. So this episode is a little different, as we are talking about "So Far Gone" by Jess Walter. And we are having an in-person book club discussion of it. So this one is kind of designed for people who can't make the in-person book club. And as with our previous book discussions, there may be spoilers, so we do recommend if you're interested in reading this book, to do that before listening to the podcast. So Michael and I have previously talked about this book and how much we enjoyed it on Books and Bites. Charlotte, did you have any initial thoughts? Charlotte: I thought this book was wonderful. It is very timely. I think it's, would speak to a lot of different people and about what is happening in America right now Carrie: Yeah. I think that, [00:03:00] that was kind of- Michael: Oh, yeah ... Carrie: some of my initial thoughts too. Michael: I found it interesting that it didn't, it wasn't biased to one political side or the other. Everybody was kind of flawed in this book. Carrie: Yes. Yeah, everyone is flawed, and everyone kinda gets made fun of in some ways. Also I really liked how he uses... I mean, initially I think the topic can be a little off-putting for some people who just don't wanna think about all of the political division that we experience right now. But for me, it kind of felt like a book I needed to read, and I felt like the humor really helped- Michael: Oh, yeah ... Carrie: digest everything. Michael: Yeah. It definitely, when it got to those more politically contentious subjects, there's always some humor around there that kinda leveled it out. Carrie: Yeah, I guess, well, before we get to some of the more difficult parts, since we're talking about humor, did [00:04:00] you guys have a favorite point in the book where you thought it was really funny? Michael: I mean, I think we talked about my favorite--was definitely the raccoon scene. Carrie: The raccoons, yeah. [Laughter] Michael: And the Snoballs. Charlotte: Raccoons are- Michael: Oh, man ... Charlotte: a certain pest. [Laughter] I found the kids sometimes were humorous to me, particularly the youngest one, and all of his little quirkiness. I relate to that a lot. [Laughter] So yeah, that spoke to me. And just how they look at the world. Carrie: Yeah. Yeah. Asher is definitely... I don't know. What, what can you say about it? But I love how he annoys everybody, but he's so genuine too, and his own little person. Michael: Yeah, that reminds me of my son. [Laughter] He can, you know, drive you crazy, but... Carrie: But you love him. Michael: Yep. Charlotte: All the little quirkiness. Carrie: Yeah, I liked, I [00:05:00] liked those as well. I also, I don't know about you, Charlotte, we both listened to the audiobook, and I think the narrator is just so funny. Charlotte: Yes. Carrie: Just that little moment of repeating the zygomatic arch you know, throughout the book after Rhys gets beat up. And I don't know, he just manages to say it different every single time, and it's so funny. Also, the scene with the Buffs at the festival. Michael: Oh my gosh. [Laughter] Charlotte: Oh, yeah, the festival scene. And all of just the contradictoriness of that. [Laughter] The Buffs or the boofs, and what the boof is with the drug usage, and the fact that you can't get a Bud Light, but you know, you can do these hardcore drugs. Carrie: Yeah, and I think that is a good example, [00:06:00] too, of how, you know, yes, there are Christian nationalists [who] are a pretty central figure, and they are ridiculous in a different way. But, you know, we kind of associate the Pacific Northwest and progressive liberals maybe on this festival side, and they're pretty silly, too. So. Michael: Yeah. Charlotte: So much silliness on both sides. Michael: Oh, yeah. Carrie: So I guess to get into some of the more challenging aspects of it, so we have talked about these differing political viewpoints, which we especially see in Shane and Rhys. And so Shane is Rhys's son-in-law, and the novel kicks off with Rhys punching him, like, at a family holiday gathering. I know probably we've all wanted to react violently [00:07:00] to family members or other people, because it is so difficult to talk civilly about politics now. What do y'all think? Why is it so difficult, especially now? Michael: Probably I would say just the pervasiveness of technology, and you get stuck in these silos and these, you know, information cliques. Everybody's done their own research and these- Carrie: "Research." Michael: Yes. Yeah. Carrie: With air quotes. Michael: Yeah. Memes and you know reels and get stuck, stuck in these silos- Charlotte: Yeah Michael: echo chambers. Charlotte: The algorithms on social media, if that's where you're getting the majority of your news, will feed you what it thinks you want to see. And so you get further and further down these holes of crazier and crazier, and so I think it causes a lot of You know, it causes that extremism. But talking to one another, you [00:08:00] know, is what we need to be doing. There's always these rules about, you'll hear, like, people on the radio, "Oh, Thanksgiving, you know, no religion or politics." And that's always been a thing that people say, you know, when you get together with family, no religion or politics. But is that healthy? Shouldn't we be talking to one another and trying to, to have more camaraderie and look at things with more common sense? And maybe there's more of us out there that would be willing to do it if we just tried. Carrie: Yeah. Well, is that something you all... like, I mean, I think we agree that we should be doing this, but how do we do it, I think, is a very good question. Charlotte: That's a good question. Michael: Yeah. Charlotte: You almost have to lay ground rules. Michael: that's the hard part. Yeah. I mean, I know my in-laws, my, you know, my family, when we have gatherings, you just say one word and it just turns into a whole, whole thing. So- Carrie: Mm-hmm ... Michael: it's really, yeah, that's the hard part is broaching the subject. Charlotte: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And, you know, and bringing [00:09:00] information to the table, too, if you have done true research and having someone, you know, listen to you and take that in as something that's actually valid, is a challenge as well. Because they'll say, "Well, that's just not true." Sifting through that is another challenge. Carrie: Mm-hmm. I'm actually reading a book right now, and of course, I can't remember the title of it. But it's by Beth Howard, and she's a political organizer in East- She's from Eastern Kentucky, and she's writing about organizing with, around people who, you know, are assumed to be politically one way, and maybe they aren't. And so one of the things she talks about is trying to have these discussions in a non-judgmental way, and trying to listen more than just saying what you think. [00:10:00] Which I think is a challenge to do. Michael: Yes. Oh, yeah. Charlotte: The non-judgmental is especially challenging. And you said, you know, she works with people you assume to have views one way, and I think that's an easy thing to do. I was speaking with a friend a while back, and she said, "You know, I'll just assume that because someone has this one view about something, that they're, they're automatically conservative or Republican, or they're automatically liberal." And she said, "I have to stop thinking that way because it's not all just one thing that makes you on one political side or the other." Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And people might have, you know, views about class, like, what the country should do for working people, but then maybe they have conservative views based on religion or somethings. And there's not really much room in our current system for, like, a mixture of those, really. Charlotte: Right. Michael: Yeah. Carrie: So I guess [00:11:00] one relationship that kind of stuck out to me as people who are able to, at least for a little while, were able to have a relationship across the political aisle was Lucy and Chuck. What is it about their relationship that they are able to work through those issues? Michael: Oh, Chuck. [Laughter] Chuck was, he loved Lucy, you know, would do anything to please her. Maybe he saw her, I wouldn't say like-minded, but like, you know, because she had a position of power of where she was, and- Charlotte: Mm-hmm, I think you're onto something there. Yeah, I was gonna say the same thing. Both of them, it's almost like at the age they were, in the positions that they were, they almost felt like that they were being pushed out or left behind. And I can't remember, there was a specific phrase that Chuck used when he was retiring or whatever, and I can't remember [00:12:00] exactly what it was, but it resonates, and I think that a lot of that age group that is in that retirement age often feel irrelevant now, and maybe there was a bond there over that rather than worrying about the politics and the sides, is really we're just, we're here trying to stay relevant and stay, you know, active and, and keep moving forward. Carrie: Sure. I also felt though, like, maybe they challenged each other. You know, like Chuck kinda liked that conflict, and he found it exciting. Michael: He loved conflict. Charlotte: Yes. [Laughter] Carrie: He did. Sure! Let's go confront some big violent people with guns by yourself. That sounds like fun! Yeah, so I don't know. They were kind of well-matched in that regard too. But I don't know. I mean, I [00:13:00] think people used to... You know, my parents were different political beliefs, and I, you know, I think of their generation, that was probably more common. I think maybe it's not as common anymore. Michael: Yeah, because everybody's business is out there now, so everybody knows. Yeah, that old adage where opposites attract maybe comes into play a little bit too. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Charlotte: growing up, I don't remember either of my parents being political hardly at all. And I'm not even really sure that I could have told you what side of they would have landed on. You know, they just, it wasn't talked about a whole lot, and that's something I think that has changed over the years as well. We put a lot of power and emphasis on it now, and again, that's probably due to the internet and social media and all of that. Michael: Oh, yeah, that's true. Like, growing up, they weren't political. That was not the first thing that you talked about, but now when you see somebody, usually you jump [00:14:00] to what side of the aisle are they on or- Carrie: Yeah Michael: yeah. Carrie: Or you're making unspoken judgements- Michael: Yep ... Carrie: just based on how they- Michael: How they look. Carrie: Yeah, how they- Michael: Where they're from. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah, that is kind of sad, isn't it? When we first meet Rhys, he has been living off-grid for seven years. After this incident with his son-in-law, he just kind of retreated. What did you all think about that decision to live off-grid and...? Charlotte: Well, I joke all the time about how I wanna live off-grid sometimes, because I get frustrated with modern society. However, I also don't think that it is healthy to do so, to the extent that he did, isolating himself from his entire family and having zero contact with the world. You know, not even knowing much about COVID going on, you know, that kinda thing. But at the same time, I get the desire to want to do that just to get away from it all, so maybe there's a happy medium. Michael: And the way he did it was like, "I'm done," just had that breaking point. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: Which, I don't know, it kinda felt like he was kind of like giving up, almost like- Carrie: Mm-hmm. Charlotte: Yes ... Michael: "I'm done. You know, I'm not gonna fight this anymore." Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael: It's kinda sad. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: But ... Carrie: And that definitely, I mean, that affected his relationship with his daughter. Michael: Oh, yeah ... Carrie: his grandkids, he didn't even know them when they showed up on his door. Yeah, like you said, it is understandable-- because everybody kinda has that fantasy, I think, of just stepping away from it all at some point. But I do think Rhys changes as the book progresses. Did your opinion of him change as we went through the book? Charlotte: Yeah. Michael: Yeah. Kind of this more lovable grump type character. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: You know, he sees his grandchildren. I feel like he kind of, that's when he kinda has this epiphany [00:16:00] where he's like, "I don't know these kids. How did this happen? So I need to fix this." Carrie: Yeah. Charlotte: Yeah. I think with Rhys, time just sorta got away from him. You know, I don't think he ever meant any ill will or to cause these rifts between him and his family, but he definitely is trying to fix it as the book goes on and do better. And that's, that's really what I think we all are trying to do. We're just trying to do better. Carrie: Mm-hmm. And what about Shane? Did your opinion of Shane change? Michael: I, yeah, I say by the end he got pulled into something maybe he didn't intend for it to become, and maybe that's, you know, with Dean Burris getting, become kind of a bad actor inserted into this and kind of... But, like, he, Shane wasn't a bad guy, I don't think. He just kind of- Charlotte: He got pulled into a cult. Michael: Yeah, pretty much. Yeah. [Laughter] Carrie: Yeah. Charlotte: Which can happen to... I mean, it is very easy for [00:17:00] even the smartest people out there to get pulled into organizations. There's a book out there called "Cultish," and it talks about the language of cults and what they really are and, and how they become. Good, good book, by the way. Michael: That's a good book. I read that. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: It's... Carrie: Yeah, I thought you had talked about it before. Yeah, and you kind of, when we were talking about questions beforehand, you had some questions about, you know, the fact that they were in recovery, that Beth and him were in recovery. Do you think that had anything to do with him getting pulled into this bad situation? Charlotte: I, yeah, I think that it was a factor. A lot of times people in recovery will replace one addiction with another, such as, like, you get addicted to running or you replace your addiction with knitting or whatever it is that works for you. And I think in this case, you know, he needed to [00:18:00] have something that he just kept going for and, you know, this religious group seemed to be that for him. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah, that's exactly what I thought. [Laughter] Carrie: And I just thought it was... Walter did such a good job entering, because, you know, one of the great things about this book is it's not just, although I think Rhys is the central figure, it's not just told through his viewpoint. So lots of other people in the story get, have their point of view expressed, and having Shane's point of view come in at the end, I felt like that really made his character even more real. Charlotte: Yeah. Carrie: Getting to see it, even though it's, like, right before this really tragic end. Yeah, I thought that was really effective. Well, speaking of the end, jumping around a little bit here, but yeah, so to me, the ending, especially the first time I listened to it [00:19:00] was kind of surprising. What did you all think about it? Charlotte: Yeah, I also found the ending to be surprising, and so I listened to this twice because, I listened to it several months ago when you first asked me to join in on this podcast, and then I listened to it again because I forget things. And to be perfectly honest, I completely forgot that that happened at the end. So as, like, leading up to it, I was... I went, "Oh, I think something happens here." And so it's just so jarring when it does happen that it's, it fits, but it also doesn't, if that makes any sense. Michael: Like, there's nothing to allude that it was gonna get that violent or, you know, the death that happened was gonna happen. It was just kind of very shocking and sudden, which I think in real life is kinda what happens. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: But yeah, I did not, I did not see that coming. But I thought it was a good ending. I thought- [00:20:00] Carrie: Yeah. I mean, once I kind of got over the shock, the surprise of it- and maybe part of it, like being driving and like all of a sudden, like I thought it was winding down, and I actually listened to it again too, and I listened to it with my mom on a road trip, and she was like, "Wait, I thought this was, I thought this was winding down. Like, I thought we were almost over." So I think she had this, kind of the same reaction of, I don't know, it just, it does seem to... It, is a sort of unexpected, but yeah, I think you're right, that that is kind of how violence often works. Michael: Yeah, shocking and sudden, and like I was thinking, where are they gonna go? Here's, here comes Dean Burris, and are they gonna have a showdown? Are they gonna talk him down? And I was leaning towards that. There was nothing alluded to- Carrie: Yeah ... Michael: what was gonna happen, but man, I mean, you know, of course I like... That's the kind of stuff I like. [00:21:00] But I did have a... I kind of have a question about, like, what did you think about... One thing that got to me was Dean Burris, his character, and how he just blamed everybody, especially the media- Carrie: Mm-hmm ... Michael: Rhys, for all his mistakes, and he would not take responsibility for anything he's done. It was always someone else's fault. And that kind of... Well, I think that was the point of that was, you know, that what really frustrated me was that kind of, that kind of character, which I think is very, very realistic. Just this person just refuses to do, accept any responsibility for his actions and it leads to that. Did you have any thoughts on Dean Burris and... 'Cause maybe that cult, you know, was just a... Like, I thought that was gonna be a big action scene maybe, and it wasn't much of nothing. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael: It was kinda building towards that, and it was just, what, did he get shot by accident, Chuck? Carrie: Yes. Michael: In the [00:22:00] rear or something? Carrie: Yeah. Because he shot the guy's tire. [Laughter] Michael: Yeah, yeah. Carrie: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting that actually the Gallens, the pastor, I mean, even they kind of get humanized at the end- Michael: Yeah. Charlotte: Yeah ... Carrie: when the son, when they realize that their son might be bisexual, and you think they're gonna have one reaction to that, but the pastor's wife, you know, she's kind of reasonable about it. Michael: Yeah. Charlotte: I think things are different in, when it's your own kid, you know? You can have these worldviews and what you think is right and wrong, but when you're presented with, you know, your own child who might be bisexual or gay or whatever, I think a lot of times that causes you to look at it a little differently than you would have from, say, an outsider's perspective. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah, but back to Dean Burris, I mean, he does... In some ways, he [00:23:00] is the, he's the most one-dimensional character- Michael: Yeah... Carrie: I think. But I don't know. It also, it seemed, you know, there are people that are like that. Michael: Like, I was thinking, like, he inserted himself into this cult purposely to- Charlotte: Yes. Michael: Do damage. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael: And I can- Charlotte: Major sociopath vibes from him. Michael: Yes. Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. Huge. And maybe if you look at the political climate, there's other folks like that that are just there to insert themselves to cause chaos. Carrie: Right. Michael: Even though he was, yeah, pretty one-dimensional. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Michael: Yeah, he caused a lot of- a lot of pain. Carrie: Yes, definitely. Is there anything else that you all wanted to talk about before we start talking about our bites? Michael: Hmm. Did y'all have a favorite side character? Carrie: Ah, you know, it's hard to choose. I mean, I thought [00:24:00] listening to the audiobook, the way he narrated Chuck was also so funny. Michael: I loved Chuck yeah. Charlotte: Mm-hmm, yeah. I thought Chuck was great. Carrie: But I also loved Brian and Joanie as well. Michael: Brian and Rhys's relationship. That's such a man relationship. Carrie: yeah. Michael: A bromance. [Laughter] Carrie: Yeah, it is a bromance. Charlotte, what about you? Charlotte: I enjoyed Lucy and all of her internal cussing. [Laughter] And hearing her ex-husband, "Language, Lucy!" I thought that was great. I feel that way a lot, so I can completely understand. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Okay. Well, we have talked a little bit about pairings before, Michael and I have. But I do have an update on my pairing. Charlotte, what would you pair with it? Charlotte: Yeah. So I thought that salmon jerky would [00:25:00] be a great pairing for this book simply because of the location. And you can actually get a recipe for salmon jerky on A to Z Food America, which is one of our online resources, and you can actually go on there and click on, say, Washington State and get recipes for that state. So that was one that was listed, and I know Rhys had offered his family some smoked salmon, at one point in the book. And then I also thought sun tea was appropriate because it always makes me think of, like, being outside and camping and that kinda thing, and it was something that we would make when we were camping. So- Carrie: Mm-hmm ... Charlotte: those are my two pairings. Carrie: Yeah. Excellent. And I guess salmon jerky would be good for a road trip too. Charlotte: Exactly, a road trip or, you know, being out in the wilderness or- Carrie: Right. Michael? Michael: Well, mine's got to be the Hostess Snoballs which is these, like, big ... So there is [00:26:00] chocolate cake with a cream filling and some marshmallow coating, and it's covered in this, like, dusting of pink coconut flakes. And it, that harkens back to the famous raccoon scene. He's snowed in. Carrie: Yeah, and they even get his Snoballs. Michael: Yep. The one thing he treated himself with. Carrie: Yeah. Michael: And those dang raccoons. Carrie: Have you ever had one of those before? Michael: I have, but I feel like it's been years. Carrie: Okay. Yeah, I've never had one. Charlotte: It's been a long time. Yeah. I'm not a big candy coconut fan, so. Carrie: Yeah. All right. So mine is, you know, when I first talked about this book on Books and Bites, I think it was December, so I did a turkey pot pie, which is [one of Rhys's] sad meals after he left his family and went off grid. So it seemed more appropriate to do something summery, so my pick is [00:27:00] Vegan Maple Ice Cream, and that is in honor of the maple cookies that Joanie serves the kids. Which to me, maple cookies, that also seems kinda wintery, so I thought ice cream might be a little more appropriate. And this is super easy to make at home. I have made this, variations on this recipe, a lot. You just blend cashews with water, vanilla, maple syrup, and a little salt. And I recommend, if you don't have a high-powered blender, I recommend soaking your cashews in the water beforehand. And you kind of chill the mixture and then put it in your ice cream maker. And it's really good. Cashews, for those of us who can't do dairy, cashews is a really good substitute because they're fatty enough to give you that good mouth feel. So then the last thing is, do you have any [00:28:00] books that you would recommend to people if they liked this book? Well, I can talk about mine too while while you guys think about it [Laughter] Michael: Yeah Charlotte: So many good books. Carrie: The first one would be "True Grit" by Charles Portis. I listened to an interview with Jess Walter, and he's a huge Charles Portis fan, and he talked about how he was kind of modeling this book on Charles Portis. So "True Grit" is, it's propulsive, it's witty. It's told from a young girl's perspective. It's Mattie Ross who is setting out across the Old West to avenge her father's death, but her partner is Rooster Cogburn, and he has a lot in common with Rhys Kinnick. And you've even said, what is that actor's name?[00:29:00] Michael: Jeff Bridges. I, when- Charlotte: Oh, yes ... Michael: I read that book, I was like, Jeff Bridges needs to play Rhys Kinnick when they make this. [Laughter] Carrie: Yeah, I know. It'll be, I'm really curious to see who, who ends up playing him. Michael: Oh, please let it be Jeff Bridges. Charlotte: He would make a good one. Michael: Oh, yeah. Charlotte: I agree with that. Carrie: For sure. Michael: Because he played Rooster Cogburn in the Coen Brothers adaptation, which was an excellent movie. Carrie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then my other recommendation is "The Road to Tender Hearts" by Annie Hartnett. So this one is gentler than "So Far Gone," at least once you get past the murder-suicide that sort of sets the action of the book off. But the plot and the main character remind me a lot of "So Far Gone." It's about a 63-year-old man, whose name is PJ Halliday, who sets off on a cross-country road trip, so it would be another good one for the road trip prompt, with his orphaned [00:30:00] grand-niece and nephew, his surviving adult daughter, and a death-predicting cat. Michael: Oh! Carrie: And he is also very similar in that he's a very, you know, he's a relatable character who makes a lot of mistakes but is trying to do better by the people in his life, and is endearing, and it also balances out some dark subject matter with humor. The audio version is also really great, so I recommend the audio version of that too. Michael: Well, I got two. You, you jogged my memory. Carrie: Okay, good. Michael: I would say "The Thicket" by Joe R. Lansdale. I read this a few years ago, but it's almost, there's some similarities between that and, man, I, uh... man, what's the book? Your first, and I can't believe I'm blanking on it. Carrie: Uh, "So Far Gone," or- Michael: No, your first recommendation. Carrie: Oh, "True Grit." Michael: "True Grit." My gosh. Yes, so, it's about this boy whose sister gets abducted by this outlaw. It takes place [00:31:00] in the West, 18- 1880s-1890s, and he assembles a group of misfits: a tiny person who is, like, a bounty hunter, a former slave, a former prostitute. And they go hunt this outlaw who's hidden in this dense thicket where all the outlaws hang out, no one wants to go, to save his sister. And he has, J.R. Landsowne was great with dialogue, and there's a lot of humor in there, too. So you, you kinda got this adventure style journey to save somebody. And then also "Into the Wil"d by Jon Krakauer. McCandless, and he kinda gives up everything. He's gone to Emory, going on this road trip to go stay at this bus in the Alaskan wilderness, go live by himself. So there's, there's some- Carrie: Yeah ... things don't really turn out as well for him, though. Michael: Does not, yeah, does not turn out great for him. Yeah. But yeah, those are two good ones. Charlotte: Well, I would recommend [00:32:00] "Small Mercies" by Dennis Lehane. It is a great audio. I will warn you, there is a lot of coarse language in it, but it takes place in the '70s in Boston, during the time when they were, they started busing the school districts, which mixed up the white kids and the Black kids more in the school systems. But there's, there's a lot of tension there, and the daughter gets mixed up with a situation that happens where a young Black man is killed on the subway. And it is, it is just wonderful and looks at a lot of different tough issues, but it is also very entertaining, and relatable. Carrie: Mm-hmm, great Michael: Yeah, I love Lehane. He's a great, great writer. Boston. Charlotte: Gotta love the Boston accent, if you're gonna do the audiobook. But it is wonderful. Michael: I was like, if you're writing a book that takes place in Boston during the '70s, there's no coarse language, that's not, that's not real. Carrie: Yeah. Right. [Laughter][00:33:00] And did you listen to that one on audio? Charlotte: I did. I listen to most of my books, just for time's sake, and it was great. Carrie: Yeah. Okay, good. Well, thanks for joining us, Charlotte. That was fun. Charlotte: Thank you for having me. Carrie: And we will see you in July for the next bingo card- Michael: Yeah ... Carrie: which will be coming out, and when you turn in your card- Michael: Yes Carrie: you can pick that up. Michael: That's what I was gonna say. When you turn in your bingo card, make sure to pick up your other one. We have them at the desk for you. Carrie: Yes. All right. Thanks for listening to the Books and Bites podcast. Our theme music is "The Breakers" by Scott Whiddon from his album In Close Quarters with the Enemy. Learn more about Scott and his music at his website, adoorforadesk.com.