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you're listening to the Level Up Creators
podcast, Amanda Northcutt here, founder

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and CEO.

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We help creators and digital thought
leaders like you turn your knowledge and

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experience into rock solid recurring
revenue.

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And we are super glad you're here.

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Welcome.

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Today, my guest is Sam VanderWielen, an
attorney turned entrepreneur and legal

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educator, is going to provide us with some
expert guidance on simple steps we can all

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take to legally protect and grow our
businesses.

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Through her own.

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Through her own business, Sam offers legal
templates, a wonderful podcast called On

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Your Terms, and her signature program, The
Ultimate Bundle.

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Sam lives in Long Island, New York with
her husband, Ryan, Bernadoodle Hudson,

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lots of plants, and her ever -growing
stack of favorite books.

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Amen to the book thing.

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And I love this about Sam.

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If you've always associated attorneys with
words like shark or snake or intense or

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cutthroat,

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You are truly in for a very like down to
earth breath of fresh air from Sam.

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Welcome Sam.

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Hey Amanda, thank you so much for having
me.

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I am so pumped to have this conversation
with you today.

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I know we've had it on the calendar for a
while and it's finally here.

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You have so much good advice to share.

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So I'm pretty stoked.

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Yeah, thank you.

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But before we get into sort of the legal
meat and potatoes of our chat today, if

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you will, I'd like to do two quick things.

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First, I want to play a little variation
on two truths and a lie with you.

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You and I have quite a lot in common, but
we don't know each other super well.

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So I thought this would be a fun exercise.

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So I'm going to tell you three things that
we have in common.

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Two are true and one obviously is a lie.

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Your job is to be the lie detector.

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So number one, we are both dog lovers.

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Number two, we both have law degrees and
number three, we have both had

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neurosurgery, which is the law.

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Okay, I think the lie is that we both have
law degrees.

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I had a feeling.

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Yeah, I thought the neurosurgery thing
might trip you up, it didn't.

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Too smart, Sam.

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We can get into the...

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you knew I had neurosurgery.

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So I was like, yeah, that's unique.

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If we threw that one in there, we had to
have it in common.

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Yeah.

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thanks.

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I appreciate it.

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Well, I hope you're doing okay now.

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Yes, conversation for another day, yes,
but -huh, totally.

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Yeah, I was 17, so that's been kind of
like eons ago.

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Okay, but speaking of which, I would love
for you to share kind of how you came to

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be in this line of work, specifically with
events starting around 2016 or so, if you

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don't mind.

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So 2016, I was still a practicing
attorney.

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I was at a big firm.

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I was a corporate lawyer representing
other businesses.

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And I was just in a very like victim mode
place, what I now would now call a victim

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mode place, meaning that I thought
everything had kind of happened to me.

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Corporate life had happened to me.

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My boss sucked.

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This person sucked.

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Everything sucked.

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I didn't like the job.

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You know, I was just constantly
complaining at work.

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hanging out with other people who were
constantly complaining.

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It was just like a very negative space.

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But I think the biggest difference between
then and now is that I very much did not

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take ownership for my role in it and for,
for what, you know, that the fact that it

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was a choice.

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So jump forward a few months to a fateful
plane ride home from Amsterdam and scared

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the life out of me to say the least.

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And, we hit like one of those really,
really severe turbulence patches and.

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It was like the, I mean, I was terrified
and I thought it was having a heart

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attack, which is also another story for
another day.

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But I do recall after it calmed down, I
had this intense moment of clarity that I

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have never had again, what I would like to
about some other things.

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Thinking like, what am I doing?

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You know, like what I have so much choice
in this, like what, what am I doing?

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It was just like this, I don't know,
proverbial slap across the face from life

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that I really needed.

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And within like three days of that plane
trip, I came home and registered a

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business, but I did not register a legal
business.

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I was wanting, I was again, still in that
victim.

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He placed was like, I want away from the
law.

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Lawyers suck.

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Legal stuff sucks.

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Everything sucks.

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And so I wanted to do something completely
different.

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And my, my real passion, my post nine to
five passion in life is cooking.

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And so I really wanted to do something I
loved.

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And so.

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I thought I was going to be like a food
blogger.

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I thought I was going to be a health
coach, like just teaching people how to

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cook.

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And I went out and started this wellness
business of sorts related to cooking.

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And it didn't go so great.

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Like it was fine.

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The greatest thing about it was that I got
to practice.

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It was like the best practice.

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I built a website.

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I started blogging.

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I was on social media.

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Like I was learning.

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Like I remember Googling like what is an
email list?

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Like I literally thought somebody had a
list somewhere.

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I was so confused.

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I didn't know what CRMs were.

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I didn't know SEO.

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I knew nothing about it really.

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I didn't know what a landing page was.

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All of these things were so far and so new
to me.

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I remember being very tired and it being a
lot to learn, but I absolutely loved it.

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I fell in love with online business, with
marketing, digital marketing in

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particular.

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I was like, this is so cool.

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I don't feel like the health coach thing
is exactly speaking to me, but I'm not

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really sure what I want to do.

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Then I

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I feel like the universe kind of served it
up for me because I was trying my hardest

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to get clients as a, as a health coach.

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And all I kept getting were inquiries from
people being like, what's an LLC?

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Like, I know you don't do this anymore,
but could you tell me like, what do I need

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to get started to start the kind of
business that you're running?

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And I'm like, why are people asking me
this?

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You know, that's when it really clicked
for me that if they had come to me a year

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earlier, when I was still in the firm
being charged out at 550, $650 an hour,

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There's not only would I not known what
they were talking about because I just

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went through this whole like educational
experience myself of knowing what

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tripwires were and funnels and all of
these things.

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But I also would have been charging them
so much.

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And that's not how the legal system works.

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People, lawyers are not in a position to
educate clients.

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They just do work for clients, right?

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That's what we do.

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So that's when the idea was born for
having a legal education business, a legal

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templates business.

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I shut down my health coaching business.

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set up my legal templates business and
really decided to focus on SEO.

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And within about three hours after my
website went live and I focused so heavily

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on these blog posts that I planned so
carefully, I had a sale to a random person

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that I was not related to in any way.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So that's, that was 2016, 2017.

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my gosh, that's incredible.

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Okay, is it common for lawyers to be like
incredible chefs and cooks?

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Because my brother is like a wildly
successful lawyer and like his second

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career, if he needed one would be like a
chef at a five star restaurant.

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What's up with that?

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I mean, probably that we need stress
relief, I would think like you need

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something.

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I know, well, I didn't know it then, but
something I feel like I've learned since

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becoming an online entrepreneur is that
like, I always associated creativity with

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painters, like people who could paint
pretty pictures and do those kinds of

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things.

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I was like, I'm not creative.

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I can draw stick figures.

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I'm really, really good at stick figures.

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And so I was like, that's where my
creativity ends.

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And then I realized now, you know, seven,
eight years later, I'm like, no, I'm super

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creative.

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I'm really creative with marketing.

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I'm really creative with cooking.

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I'm creative with problem solving.

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Like there are all these other ways.

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So maybe it's an outlet for us to have our
creativity because I don't feel like being

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a lawyer itself lends itself to a whole
lot of creativity.

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You know, we're teaching, we're, we have
to follow the book.

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Like literally there's no room for like,
we don't just make it up.

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It's like, it's there.

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That's, that's the rule.

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Yeah.

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man, yeah, that's fascinating.

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Yeah, I used to not think that I was a
creative person at all as well because I

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am a drummer, but that's just a hobby.

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I'm not like in a band or anything like
that.

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I've done that since I was very young, but
like I have no creative outlet outside of

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that at all whatsoever.

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And I realized only in more recent years,
maybe the last five to eight years that my

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creativity manifests in business through
creative problem solving and being able to

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take a massive data set.

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organize it all in my brain and then go in
with like surgical precision and here's

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exactly how to fix your business and what
needs to happen in this order.

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So, it's so nice to have someone who
identifies on that level.

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I don't think I know anyone who would like
describe their creative outlet in that

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way.

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So I love that about you.

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That's so cool.

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Good self -awareness as well.

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I tried.

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Now the balance is trying to figure out.

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I feel like I went through the whole phase
where like the business was my creative

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outlet.

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And then I was like, wait, I need other
creative outlets that don't have anything

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to do with business.

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So I've like, I've become more balanced.

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I don't know.

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I feel like I was sharing with Amanda
before we started that I've lost both my

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parents in like the past year.

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And that that grief, I mean, took me out
of the knees and did kind of force me, I

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think in a good way to learn other outlets
of creativity.

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So I feel like now I'm finding like

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cool balance where my business still
brings me so much joy.

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But then I've like discovered all these
other things.

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And I think that those other things like
the non -business things have actually

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helped the business so much.

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So it's really, really interesting.

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yes, it's cool how, I mean, our brains,
that's like all the research that's come

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out in more recent years about like
reading across different disciplines

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because our brains will like make these
neural connections on our behalf.

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They'll just go in and do it and that's
what like really feeds creativity and

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problem solving and things like that.

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So yeah, you're absolutely right that
these things are not happening in

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isolation in our brains.

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Like our brain is making the connection.

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It's like everything we're learning makes
everything else better.

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So.

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That's cool.

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And that's such a good sort of like
takeaway or nugget for the creators and

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thought leaders who are listening that
it's so important to have things, creative

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outlets outside of your now business.

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Like your posting on social media probably
started as like a primary creative outlet.

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Is that fair to say you think?

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And then now it's turned into a, go ahead.

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Yeah.

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like posting on social, I started posting
about what I was cooking.

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And I would talk about like creating a
recipe starts with a strong foundation,

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which is very similar to when you have a
strong foundation for your business, which

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is legal.

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Like I am the queen at like turning things
into analogies and metaphors.

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So it's it's helpful.

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That's the way that I learn and it's the
way I tell stories.

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So, you know, we were also talking about
earlier, I think it's really important to

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tap into like whatever your

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secret sauce is your strength.

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And if that's how you can get points
across better and that being creative,

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like opens up those stories, those ideas.

239
00:10:45,286 --> 00:10:49,386
I also am writing a book right now and I'm
writing a lot about how, you know, my mom

240
00:10:49,386 --> 00:10:52,366
used to say, you have to be interesting
and interested.

241
00:10:52,366 --> 00:10:56,086
And she thought it was really important to
be both, you know, and I, I think like a

242
00:10:56,086 --> 00:10:59,698
lot of times in the online space, we talk
about being unique and standing out.

243
00:10:59,698 --> 00:11:03,838
And I write in the book a lot about how
that actually requires you to be unique.

244
00:11:03,838 --> 00:11:04,958
Like, so we have to get out there.

245
00:11:04,958 --> 00:11:05,898
You got to like do stuff.

246
00:11:05,898 --> 00:11:10,718
You have to try things and I don't know,
put yourself maybe in new situations, have

247
00:11:10,718 --> 00:11:13,998
hobbies, meet new people, try new things
in your business.

248
00:11:13,998 --> 00:11:17,168
I only consume content that have nothing
to do with what we do in the business.

249
00:11:17,168 --> 00:11:20,118
Like I never watch anything to do with
what we do.

250
00:11:20,118 --> 00:11:24,170
So it, that really stimulates a lot of
ideas for me.

251
00:11:24,868 --> 00:11:25,328
I love that.

252
00:11:25,328 --> 00:11:25,698
That's right.

253
00:11:25,698 --> 00:11:29,068
You have to be interested in things in
order to be interesting.

254
00:11:29,068 --> 00:11:30,868
I'm hearing Esther Perel in my ear.

255
00:11:30,868 --> 00:11:33,528
I don't know if you like Esther Perel or
not, but like she talks about that in a

256
00:11:33,528 --> 00:11:37,128
relational standpoint, like long -term
relationships last when each of you has

257
00:11:37,128 --> 00:11:39,668
your own thing that you're doing and
you're bringing new information, new

258
00:11:39,668 --> 00:11:42,068
experiences to the relationship.

259
00:11:42,068 --> 00:11:43,618
So you actually have something to talk
about.

260
00:11:43,618 --> 00:11:47,648
I've been with my husband for 20 years and
so we have found that to be very true.

261
00:11:47,648 --> 00:11:48,868
But anyways, okay.

262
00:11:48,868 --> 00:11:53,108
We got to talk about legal stuff because
we're going to bring in personal elements

263
00:11:53,108 --> 00:11:54,084
and all the...

264
00:11:54,084 --> 00:11:56,804
all of our favorite people, the Brene
Browns of the world, I'm sure throughout

265
00:11:56,804 --> 00:11:57,884
the podcast.

266
00:11:58,124 --> 00:12:02,184
But let's get in to, like I said earlier,
the meat and potatoes.

267
00:12:02,364 --> 00:12:07,404
So as you are very thoughtful in pointing
out, people have a lot of perceptions

268
00:12:07,404 --> 00:12:08,764
about lawyers.

269
00:12:08,764 --> 00:12:12,564
And I think we all know that they are
quite freaking expensive.

270
00:12:12,564 --> 00:12:15,224
So let's get into that a little bit.

271
00:12:15,224 --> 00:12:19,344
So lots of potential legal headaches are
avoidable if business owners simply set up

272
00:12:19,344 --> 00:12:22,994
their legal paperwork correctly from the
get -go, like you just said, foundations,

273
00:12:22,994 --> 00:12:23,740
right?

274
00:12:23,812 --> 00:12:29,172
But like I just said, legal fees can get
out of hand really, really quickly, which

275
00:12:29,172 --> 00:12:32,252
I know is like one of the reasons you
started your business and are as

276
00:12:32,252 --> 00:12:34,442
successful as you are in the first place.

277
00:12:34,442 --> 00:12:38,612
But would you walk us through non
-negotiables in terms of what kind of

278
00:12:38,612 --> 00:12:41,622
paperwork and legal stuff is absolutely
necessary?

279
00:12:41,622 --> 00:12:45,232
It must be in place so that business
owners are generally protected.

280
00:12:45,232 --> 00:12:49,380
And then I'm totally going to like lob you
a softball here straight out of the gate.

281
00:12:49,380 --> 00:12:53,360
and ask how business owners can protect
themselves without spending 10 grand on

282
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,040
legal fees just to get their business up
and going.

283
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:57,428
There's the softball.

284
00:12:57,602 --> 00:13:02,922
So I mean, I, the reason I started this
business is because I will tell you

285
00:13:02,922 --> 00:13:06,742
exactly which documents or which steps I
think you're gonna, you absolutely need to

286
00:13:06,742 --> 00:13:08,882
take to have a strong foundation in a
second.

287
00:13:08,882 --> 00:13:13,122
But what I realized is really missing from
the space and what is missing from when

288
00:13:13,122 --> 00:13:17,862
you traditionally go to a lawyer, like in
your town or whatever, is that there's

289
00:13:17,862 --> 00:13:19,372
also this like day -to -day element.

290
00:13:19,372 --> 00:13:22,762
Like there's just stuff that comes up as
an entrepreneur.

291
00:13:22,862 --> 00:13:23,154
And,

292
00:13:23,154 --> 00:13:27,734
It's not always lawsuits and trademark
infringements like flinging back and

293
00:13:27,734 --> 00:13:28,094
forth.

294
00:13:28,094 --> 00:13:30,434
In fact, it's not usually that.

295
00:13:30,434 --> 00:13:35,954
What happens day to day is more of the
client didn't pay you on time and they're

296
00:13:35,954 --> 00:13:40,614
not responding to the invoice or they're
trying to take a six month contract to

297
00:13:40,614 --> 00:13:41,694
stretch it out over nine months.

298
00:13:41,694 --> 00:13:43,694
They're not respecting your boundaries.

299
00:13:43,694 --> 00:13:46,674
They're asking for extra things that
aren't supposed to be included.

300
00:13:46,674 --> 00:13:50,484
It's what we call boundary pushers in my
Ultimate Bundle program.

301
00:13:50,484 --> 00:13:51,090
So like,

302
00:13:51,090 --> 00:13:54,210
This is the stuff that I see day to day
that's happening.

303
00:13:54,210 --> 00:13:58,790
So while I will tell you like, these are
the documents or the steps that you need

304
00:13:58,790 --> 00:14:01,350
to get in place in order to have the
strong foundation.

305
00:14:01,350 --> 00:14:06,010
I also think it's helpful for you to know
how to use them, how to talk about this

306
00:14:06,010 --> 00:14:09,970
stuff, what things to like issue spot, how
to best prevent and how to have

307
00:14:09,970 --> 00:14:11,280
conversations with your clients.

308
00:14:11,280 --> 00:14:15,250
Like I think a lot of clarity helps here
and being able to have clear and honest

309
00:14:15,250 --> 00:14:17,810
conversations with your clients is...

310
00:14:17,810 --> 00:14:21,250
I think more than half the battle to
avoiding a lot of these things.

311
00:14:21,250 --> 00:14:25,690
But in terms of getting things set up so
that you have something on paper to

312
00:14:25,690 --> 00:14:29,690
actually protect you, I mean, the very
first thing that you have to do is

313
00:14:29,690 --> 00:14:33,190
properly form your business or register
your business in your state where you live

314
00:14:33,190 --> 00:14:33,500
and work.

315
00:14:33,500 --> 00:14:37,150
Because if you don't do that, then first
of all, you don't technically have a

316
00:14:37,150 --> 00:14:40,210
business and two, we're not personally
protected.

317
00:14:40,210 --> 00:14:44,110
The point of protecting, of registering
your business is actually to protect

318
00:14:44,110 --> 00:14:45,778
yourself as a person.

319
00:14:45,778 --> 00:14:48,948
So really the point of registering your
business is to separate you.

320
00:14:48,948 --> 00:14:52,578
So we have like a person over here and we
have a business over here, but there's

321
00:14:52,578 --> 00:14:56,498
sort of this wall in between the two of
you so that you're not liable for what

322
00:14:56,498 --> 00:14:57,888
happens in your business.

323
00:14:57,888 --> 00:14:59,598
So that's the point of registration.

324
00:14:59,598 --> 00:15:01,917
That's why it's the first thing we do.

325
00:15:01,917 --> 00:15:04,798
You do this before you ever work with
anyone.

326
00:15:05,018 --> 00:15:07,228
That protection is not retroactive.

327
00:15:07,228 --> 00:15:10,288
So it's only in place from the day you
form moving forward.

328
00:15:10,288 --> 00:15:13,158
So that's why it's important to do it as
early as you can.

329
00:15:13,158 --> 00:15:15,602
But that is the first thing I recommend.

330
00:15:15,602 --> 00:15:21,462
From there, I recommend that you get a
lawyer drafted contract, whether you want

331
00:15:21,462 --> 00:15:24,572
to go to an attorney near you, you want to
purchase a template from somebody like me,

332
00:15:24,572 --> 00:15:29,302
but you need something that's from a
lawyer that's related to your space and

333
00:15:29,302 --> 00:15:33,182
what you do that would cover whatever
offers you have.

334
00:15:33,182 --> 00:15:37,122
So I want you to make a list of whatever
offers if you have some sort of one -to

335
00:15:37,122 --> 00:15:40,922
-one coaching thing, you're selling a
course, maybe a digital product, a

336
00:15:40,922 --> 00:15:41,618
membership.

337
00:15:41,618 --> 00:15:45,538
you make a list of all of those offers and
you need to have a contract for each one

338
00:15:45,538 --> 00:15:46,238
of those.

339
00:15:46,238 --> 00:15:47,988
Some of those will use the same contracts.

340
00:15:47,988 --> 00:15:50,658
You'll be able to double dip like a
membership in a course, for example, can

341
00:15:50,658 --> 00:15:51,918
use the same contract.

342
00:15:51,918 --> 00:15:55,398
You'll change the wording, but you can
like duplicate the main contract.

343
00:15:55,398 --> 00:15:58,958
But a one -to -one coaching contract, for
example, is very different than what you

344
00:15:58,958 --> 00:16:00,838
would use for a online course.

345
00:16:00,838 --> 00:16:03,890
So you just need a contract for each one
of those.

346
00:16:03,890 --> 00:16:07,350
how you're going to send those to people
will vary based on how you're presenting

347
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:08,150
these offers.

348
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:11,170
So like if you have one -to -one coaching,
these are the contracts you'll be sending

349
00:16:11,170 --> 00:16:16,310
people for them to e -sign or they can
paper sign if you really want them to, but

350
00:16:16,310 --> 00:16:20,030
I recommend e -signing for ease of use,
but you'll do that.

351
00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:23,370
Whereas when we're talking about things
like digital products and courses and

352
00:16:23,370 --> 00:16:26,170
memberships, these are things you'll
integrate at checkout.

353
00:16:26,170 --> 00:16:28,750
So these would be contracts you have
people agree to.

354
00:16:28,750 --> 00:16:31,290
So that is the second step is getting your
contract.

355
00:16:31,290 --> 00:16:32,402
And third,

356
00:16:32,402 --> 00:16:33,832
I would say business insurance.

357
00:16:33,832 --> 00:16:39,282
That is the one that you can wait to pull
the trigger on like right before you're

358
00:16:39,282 --> 00:16:41,502
about to start selling or working with
people.

359
00:16:41,502 --> 00:16:45,842
You don't have to have it way in advance
like I would recommend an LLC, but you do

360
00:16:45,842 --> 00:16:48,422
have to have it in place before or you
want to have it in place before you start

361
00:16:48,422 --> 00:16:51,658
working with people because that is also
not retroactive.

362
00:16:53,060 --> 00:16:54,400
Excellent advice.

363
00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:56,640
I love that one, two, three punch.

364
00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,140
and I love, yeah, the mentions of your
ultimate bundle.

365
00:16:59,140 --> 00:17:03,520
I mean, that is the perfect startup kit
for anyone that is listening to this

366
00:17:03,520 --> 00:17:04,080
podcast.

367
00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:05,440
So awesome.

368
00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:06,400
okay.

369
00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:08,070
Then we've talked about those three steps.

370
00:17:08,070 --> 00:17:09,300
Absolutely necessary.

371
00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:09,890
Don't skimp.

372
00:17:09,890 --> 00:17:11,370
Don't miss on that.

373
00:17:11,420 --> 00:17:15,380
what about what's considered like best
practice and would be smart to do, but is

374
00:17:15,380 --> 00:17:20,540
not, you know, the end all be all like
what are the extras, the next layer of

375
00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:21,426
protection?

376
00:17:21,426 --> 00:17:25,706
Yeah, so I think the next layer of
protection is actually learning your scope

377
00:17:25,706 --> 00:17:30,006
of practice, especially if you're in the
coaching consulting space.

378
00:17:30,406 --> 00:17:36,386
Scope of practice is what tells you what
you're legally allowed to do, teach, sell,

379
00:17:36,386 --> 00:17:42,386
offer, talk about, and it's based on how
your state defines your profession,

380
00:17:42,386 --> 00:17:45,626
essentially, or what I call the umbrella
professions around you.

381
00:17:45,626 --> 00:17:49,286
So we'll take the health coach example,
like if you're in the health coaching

382
00:17:49,286 --> 00:17:50,002
space,

383
00:17:50,002 --> 00:17:54,822
you need to know what doctors and
therapists and physical therapists and

384
00:17:54,822 --> 00:17:58,702
personal trainers are allowed to do
legally in your state because you're not

385
00:17:58,702 --> 00:18:00,742
allowed to legally do any of those things.

386
00:18:00,742 --> 00:18:05,442
So I think whatever space people are in,
the money space, self -care space, you

387
00:18:05,442 --> 00:18:08,802
need to know what it is that you're
legally allowed to do.

388
00:18:08,802 --> 00:18:13,262
I think that a lot of people mistake the
fact that if you have a contract, for

389
00:18:13,262 --> 00:18:16,146
example, I hear this all the time from
people who say like,

390
00:18:16,146 --> 00:18:19,526
I'm a money coach, I talk about
investments, but don't worry, I have them

391
00:18:19,526 --> 00:18:22,206
sign something that says that they
understand I'm not their financial

392
00:18:22,206 --> 00:18:22,566
advisor.

393
00:18:22,566 --> 00:18:26,116
And it's like, right, but you can't do
financial advising.

394
00:18:26,116 --> 00:18:29,866
So you can't just have somebody say, like,
they sign something saying, I know you're

395
00:18:29,866 --> 00:18:33,806
not my financial advisor, and then give
them financial advice that would only a

396
00:18:33,806 --> 00:18:35,186
financial advisor could do.

397
00:18:35,186 --> 00:18:39,602
So I think learning what those boundaries
are, and then.

398
00:18:39,602 --> 00:18:43,602
And then really taking a nice hard look
holistically at your business from your

399
00:18:43,602 --> 00:18:47,862
copy to your offers to your social media
presence, making sure you're within those

400
00:18:47,862 --> 00:18:48,482
bounds.

401
00:18:48,482 --> 00:18:53,302
And I think what I get really excited
about in a very dorky way is that people

402
00:18:53,302 --> 00:18:57,362
can have really, really successful
businesses, as you know, staying well

403
00:18:57,362 --> 00:18:58,202
within those bounds.

404
00:18:58,202 --> 00:19:01,822
Like you, I think there's a misperception
and I think there's a bit of a scarcity

405
00:19:01,822 --> 00:19:05,342
mindset that comes up that like you have
to offer all these things.

406
00:19:05,342 --> 00:19:09,524
You have to talk about all these things in
order for your business to do well.

407
00:19:09,586 --> 00:19:13,246
And people are also triggered by the fact
that they'll see other people in the

408
00:19:13,246 --> 00:19:16,466
online space doing these things illegally.

409
00:19:16,466 --> 00:19:20,546
And there's like, well, if I don't do it,
then I'm going to lose out to this person.

410
00:19:20,546 --> 00:19:21,996
It is not true, right?

411
00:19:21,996 --> 00:19:25,566
There are lots and lots of people doing
this, quote unquote, the right way who are

412
00:19:25,566 --> 00:19:26,606
doing very, very well.

413
00:19:26,606 --> 00:19:28,736
I hope to be an example of that.

414
00:19:28,736 --> 00:19:32,726
I don't do a lot of things that my peers
do because I know it's outside of the

415
00:19:32,726 --> 00:19:34,856
bounds and it's outside the bounds of what
I'm comfortable with.

416
00:19:34,856 --> 00:19:36,006
So like, that's fine.

417
00:19:36,006 --> 00:19:37,166
That's how I sleep at night.

418
00:19:37,166 --> 00:19:39,432
And that's really all that matters.

419
00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:40,496
Yeah, I love that.

420
00:19:40,496 --> 00:19:44,016
And I love, yeah, specifically giving
financial and health related advice and

421
00:19:44,016 --> 00:19:44,836
legal advice.

422
00:19:44,836 --> 00:19:45,626
Holy moly.

423
00:19:45,626 --> 00:19:47,676
You can get in such a pile of trouble.

424
00:19:47,896 --> 00:19:48,216
okay.

425
00:19:48,216 --> 00:19:49,016
Well, awesome.

426
00:19:49,016 --> 00:19:51,036
That's great advice, Sam, of course.

427
00:19:51,236 --> 00:19:52,766
let's talk about email marketing a little
bit.

428
00:19:52,766 --> 00:19:56,536
Obviously email marketing is a big thing
in my business, your business, and

429
00:19:56,536 --> 00:19:57,916
probably everybody who's listening.

430
00:19:57,916 --> 00:19:59,916
And if it's not, it should be.

431
00:19:59,916 --> 00:20:06,236
So listen up, regarding email rules and
regulations around like who you can send

432
00:20:06,236 --> 00:20:07,536
emails to.

433
00:20:07,536 --> 00:20:08,868
I'll just talk about.

434
00:20:08,868 --> 00:20:13,208
maybe the delineation between the United
States versus what's across the pond and

435
00:20:13,208 --> 00:20:14,208
GDPR.

436
00:20:14,208 --> 00:20:17,208
Would you mind breaking down just some of
those high level rules for us into

437
00:20:17,208 --> 00:20:21,888
layman's terms and help all of us stay out
of trouble and be on the up and up on the

438
00:20:21,888 --> 00:20:23,108
email marketing front?

439
00:20:23,108 --> 00:20:24,318
absolutely.

440
00:20:24,478 --> 00:20:25,168
Absolutely.

441
00:20:25,168 --> 00:20:26,578
I love email marketing.

442
00:20:26,578 --> 00:20:28,218
So I'm happy to talk about this.

443
00:20:28,238 --> 00:20:32,038
So, I mean, essentially there are two main
laws you need to be familiar with if

444
00:20:32,038 --> 00:20:34,008
you're in the email marketing space.

445
00:20:34,008 --> 00:20:37,818
So there's the CAN Spam Act of 2003 here
in the United States.

446
00:20:37,818 --> 00:20:41,798
And then we have the GDPR, as Amanda
mentioned, in the EU comes out of the

447
00:20:41,798 --> 00:20:45,638
European Union called the General Data
Protection Regulation.

448
00:20:45,638 --> 00:20:47,698
So this was passed a couple of years ago.

449
00:20:47,698 --> 00:20:51,826
And although it was passed in the EU, it
applies to all of us.

450
00:20:51,826 --> 00:20:57,506
because if anyone from the EU can access
your website, which anyone can, unless you

451
00:20:57,506 --> 00:21:01,546
have some like weird blocker on your site
that doesn't let people from the EU see

452
00:21:01,546 --> 00:21:05,106
your site or something like that, but if
anyone can access your site, then you are

453
00:21:05,106 --> 00:21:06,326
subject to it.

454
00:21:06,326 --> 00:21:10,546
We also have actually, we have some state
laws here in the US and we have some other

455
00:21:10,546 --> 00:21:16,886
federal privacy laws that people have said
like dip into the email space, the online

456
00:21:16,886 --> 00:21:20,786
space in various ways, like California,
for example, has Cal OPA.

457
00:21:20,786 --> 00:21:25,566
Which again is very similar to the GDPR
out of the EU which applies to all of us

458
00:21:25,566 --> 00:21:29,366
as long as people from California can
visit our website So even if you're not a

459
00:21:29,366 --> 00:21:34,546
California resident, you're subject to Cal
APA, for example, so Those are really the

460
00:21:34,546 --> 00:21:35,266
main laws.

461
00:21:35,266 --> 00:21:38,906
I would say they are they have one big
difference, which I'll break down for you

462
00:21:38,906 --> 00:21:42,426
So in America, I would say it's much more
relaxed.

463
00:21:42,426 --> 00:21:46,336
Even though there are laws around this
It's it's more relaxed than the GDPR.

464
00:21:46,336 --> 00:21:47,936
GPR is more recent.

465
00:21:47,936 --> 00:21:49,522
It's more updated

466
00:21:49,522 --> 00:21:51,282
much more privacy focused.

467
00:21:51,282 --> 00:21:54,542
I mean, the EU in the last several years
has come out with a number of laws against

468
00:21:54,542 --> 00:21:58,462
a number of different companies or that
are aimed at different companies to

469
00:21:58,462 --> 00:22:03,282
regulate privacy and people's access to
their own data.

470
00:22:03,342 --> 00:22:06,792
So, you know, that is a newer and more
strict law.

471
00:22:06,792 --> 00:22:11,162
But here in America and across the board,
I would just say, you don't want to ever

472
00:22:11,162 --> 00:22:14,872
add people to your email list unless
they've chosen to be there, right?

473
00:22:14,872 --> 00:22:15,378
So,

474
00:22:15,378 --> 00:22:19,578
We want to have opt -in forms, landing
pages where people are signing up to our

475
00:22:19,578 --> 00:22:20,518
list.

476
00:22:20,698 --> 00:22:25,478
We want to make sure if you're hosting an
in -person event, for example, people will

477
00:22:25,478 --> 00:22:26,378
have a sign -in sheet.

478
00:22:26,378 --> 00:22:29,778
You can have something on there that says,
would you like to be added to my email

479
00:22:29,778 --> 00:22:29,958
list?

480
00:22:29,958 --> 00:22:31,497
And they can check something off.

481
00:22:31,497 --> 00:22:38,778
You generally want to take an attitude of
having people take an action, like a

482
00:22:38,778 --> 00:22:41,068
saying yes, essentially, and have them say
yes.

483
00:22:41,068 --> 00:22:43,410
Don't assume and then make them say no.

484
00:22:43,410 --> 00:22:46,700
So we want to make people say yes, we want
to have proof that they've said yes.

485
00:22:46,700 --> 00:22:51,770
So whether that's signed up through a form
in real life or online, you know, we want

486
00:22:51,770 --> 00:22:52,770
this proof.

487
00:22:52,770 --> 00:22:56,180
So in America, that's kind of as simple as
it is.

488
00:22:56,180 --> 00:23:00,690
CanSpan also requires that we have an
unsubscribed link at the bottom of our

489
00:23:00,690 --> 00:23:02,820
emails that actually works.

490
00:23:02,820 --> 00:23:06,190
So if people click on it, they should be
actually unsubscribed.

491
00:23:06,190 --> 00:23:10,710
You as a business owner, even if you use
ConvertKit like I do, or you use Active

492
00:23:10,710 --> 00:23:11,602
Campaign or...

493
00:23:11,602 --> 00:23:13,842
Kajabi or whatever else is out there.

494
00:23:13,842 --> 00:23:18,422
You still have the responsibility to make
sure the software is working correctly.

495
00:23:18,422 --> 00:23:20,722
So if people are clicking on it and
they're not getting taken out of your

496
00:23:20,722 --> 00:23:22,142
emails, that's on you.

497
00:23:22,142 --> 00:23:25,642
You're not going to be able to be like,
but Kajabi, like it's their fault, right?

498
00:23:25,642 --> 00:23:27,612
You have to take responsibility and make
sure.

499
00:23:27,612 --> 00:23:30,022
So that's something to keep your eye on.

500
00:23:30,022 --> 00:23:33,422
You also have to have your business
address at the bottom of all of your

501
00:23:33,422 --> 00:23:34,402
emails.

502
00:23:34,822 --> 00:23:38,562
It does not have to be the same address as
the address you use to register your

503
00:23:38,562 --> 00:23:38,882
business.

504
00:23:38,882 --> 00:23:40,778
I get that asked that a lot.

505
00:23:40,786 --> 00:23:42,406
It doesn't have to be your home address.

506
00:23:42,406 --> 00:23:43,476
It can be a PO box.

507
00:23:43,476 --> 00:23:46,866
It has to be somewhere where you can
receive business mail.

508
00:23:46,866 --> 00:23:48,786
So wherever that is for you.

509
00:23:48,786 --> 00:23:49,686
Mine is a PO box.

510
00:23:49,686 --> 00:23:51,596
So that's why I set it up that way.

511
00:23:51,596 --> 00:23:52,696
So you can have that.

512
00:23:52,696 --> 00:23:57,786
And then I would say last but not least,
in America, it's just important to keep in

513
00:23:57,786 --> 00:24:03,666
mind that your emails have to be related,
generally speaking, to what people thought

514
00:24:03,666 --> 00:24:04,434
they were signing up.

515
00:24:04,434 --> 00:24:08,554
So, I mean, this is, people get a little
too hung up on this in the sense that, for

516
00:24:08,554 --> 00:24:12,553
example, I have a weekly email called Sam
Sidebar where I do like a weekly legal Q

517
00:24:12,553 --> 00:24:15,134
&A and I share helpful links.

518
00:24:15,134 --> 00:24:19,054
I share online business legal news, the
updates that everybody needs to know.

519
00:24:19,054 --> 00:24:21,874
But I write stories every week that are
about various things.

520
00:24:21,874 --> 00:24:23,784
My story this week was about Broadway.

521
00:24:23,784 --> 00:24:26,774
It was like, it doesn't, they're not
talking about that.

522
00:24:26,774 --> 00:24:28,434
What they're talking about is like,

523
00:24:28,434 --> 00:24:32,254
Now all of a sudden I join an MLM and I'm
like, I'm not doing legal anymore.

524
00:24:32,254 --> 00:24:33,824
And now I'm like selling them products.

525
00:24:33,824 --> 00:24:35,354
That's what they're talking about.

526
00:24:35,354 --> 00:24:39,274
So, and even then, as long as I had the
unsubscribe link and it worked, it's

527
00:24:39,274 --> 00:24:40,524
really not that big of a deal.

528
00:24:40,524 --> 00:24:44,994
So that's kind of the gist of email
marketing here in the States.

529
00:24:45,394 --> 00:24:49,014
The GDPR law that we mentioned earlier
just added in a little bit of a twist

530
00:24:49,014 --> 00:24:54,574
where if people from the EU sign up for
your email list, they not only have to

531
00:24:54,574 --> 00:24:56,050
take that

532
00:24:56,050 --> 00:24:59,990
Action that what they call an affirmative
action of saying yes I want to be added to

533
00:24:59,990 --> 00:25:03,230
your email list like just because I sign
up for a freebie For example doesn't mean

534
00:25:03,230 --> 00:25:08,010
they can be added to your list, which is
would be okay here in America They also

535
00:25:08,010 --> 00:25:11,790
have to have control over whether they
continue to receive marketing email like

536
00:25:11,790 --> 00:25:16,250
sales emails And so if you use things like
convert kit, they make that super super

537
00:25:16,250 --> 00:25:21,750
easy for you because you actually can
activate Like a feature on the forums that

538
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:24,490
only shows that option to people who are
located in EU.

539
00:25:24,490 --> 00:25:24,914
I

540
00:25:24,914 --> 00:25:28,514
so that not all of your subscribers are
seeing it since it's not required here in

541
00:25:28,514 --> 00:25:29,188
the US.

542
00:25:29,188 --> 00:25:30,418
That was a pretty sweet feature.

543
00:25:30,418 --> 00:25:31,848
It's a good idea.

544
00:25:31,848 --> 00:25:33,568
OK, awesome.

545
00:25:33,608 --> 00:25:37,048
And I would definitely encourage people
not to put their home address at the

546
00:25:37,048 --> 00:25:37,778
bottom of those emails.

547
00:25:37,778 --> 00:25:39,748
Get a PO box, folks.

548
00:25:39,868 --> 00:25:41,868
You're running a business.

549
00:25:41,868 --> 00:25:44,808
You're limiting your liability as it is,
setting things up properly.

550
00:25:44,808 --> 00:25:46,228
Don't let people know where you live.

551
00:25:46,228 --> 00:25:48,288
We don't need to do that.

552
00:25:48,668 --> 00:25:54,948
Anything else before we move on from email
marketing, like any other?

553
00:25:54,948 --> 00:25:56,452
Is there a thing?

554
00:25:56,452 --> 00:25:59,712
included in GDPR where if someone
unsubscribes, you also have to delete

555
00:25:59,712 --> 00:26:02,532
their contact information within some
amount of time.

556
00:26:02,532 --> 00:26:03,474
Did I make that up?

557
00:26:03,474 --> 00:26:07,314
I believe that GDPR has a provision where
people have to, you have to give people

558
00:26:07,314 --> 00:26:09,694
the option to request the deletion.

559
00:26:09,694 --> 00:26:14,814
I am not completely up to date on knowing
exactly how we have to perform this

560
00:26:14,814 --> 00:26:20,194
because I know for us, it's like when we
delete them, they obviously don't continue

561
00:26:20,194 --> 00:26:23,874
to get our emails, but I have in my
privacy policy, I guess this would be a

562
00:26:23,874 --> 00:26:27,754
plug for having your three website
policies, which are the privacy policy

563
00:26:27,754 --> 00:26:29,842
website disclaimer in terms and
conditions.

564
00:26:29,842 --> 00:26:34,022
But in your privacy policy, I like in my
privacy policy template, which I obviously

565
00:26:34,022 --> 00:26:39,722
use my own, I have a provision in there
that says like we use third party, like

566
00:26:39,722 --> 00:26:43,012
apps and tools and we can't control what
they do with the data.

567
00:26:43,012 --> 00:26:46,422
So like I can delete it on my end, but I
can't guarantee you that convert kits

568
00:26:46,422 --> 00:26:46,682
still.

569
00:26:46,682 --> 00:26:48,502
I don't know who knows what they do with
their data.

570
00:26:48,502 --> 00:26:51,002
So that can't be on me.

571
00:26:51,522 --> 00:26:55,102
I believe though they can make like a
formal request, which then we have to make

572
00:26:55,102 --> 00:26:56,322
to convert kit.

573
00:26:56,322 --> 00:26:59,844
So that's typically the way I recommend
people dealing with it.

574
00:26:59,844 --> 00:27:01,644
Yep, that's a great point.

575
00:27:01,644 --> 00:27:05,324
I forgot to talk about that earlier, but
yes, definitely want to have privacy

576
00:27:05,324 --> 00:27:08,324
policy, website terms of use, and the
disclaimer.

577
00:27:08,784 --> 00:27:09,904
So, okay.

578
00:27:09,904 --> 00:27:11,994
Let's talk about content stealing.

579
00:27:11,994 --> 00:27:15,584
I'm trying to hit all the major legal
topics that are relevant in the creator

580
00:27:15,584 --> 00:27:17,144
economy right now.

581
00:27:17,684 --> 00:27:20,484
The subject is, it's big.

582
00:27:21,064 --> 00:27:25,784
We have a client who has almost a million
followers right now, and somebody just

583
00:27:25,784 --> 00:27:28,762
completely ripped off their course, like
one.

584
00:27:28,762 --> 00:27:29,418
no.

585
00:27:29,488 --> 00:27:30,928
% ripped it off.

586
00:27:30,928 --> 00:27:33,808
It's like clear as day that that's exactly
what happened.

587
00:27:34,328 --> 00:27:38,528
So, two part question, how in the world do
you protect your content from being stolen

588
00:27:38,528 --> 00:27:39,668
in the first place?

589
00:27:39,668 --> 00:27:43,308
And that could even be like, not even a
behind the paywall digital product or

590
00:27:43,308 --> 00:27:47,508
something like that, like a course, but
just people ripping off your reels or

591
00:27:47,508 --> 00:27:49,728
carousels or posts or whatever the case
may be.

592
00:27:49,728 --> 00:27:52,758
So how do you protect yourself initially,
if you can?

593
00:27:52,758 --> 00:27:56,932
And then can anything be done other
than...

594
00:27:56,932 --> 00:28:02,192
suing someone and entering into like a
crazy expensive lawsuit or is it like just

595
00:28:02,192 --> 00:28:04,572
the wild west of the internet right now?

596
00:28:05,138 --> 00:28:06,628
no, there's so much you can do.

597
00:28:06,628 --> 00:28:09,918
There's so much you can do on the front
end and then there's so much you can do in

598
00:28:09,918 --> 00:28:12,958
response even without contacting people.

599
00:28:13,538 --> 00:28:18,078
But yeah, they, okay, so first things
first, when we're talking about things

600
00:28:18,078 --> 00:28:22,538
like social media, the platforms have
their own way of dealing with this.

601
00:28:22,538 --> 00:28:26,498
So they'll have like things you can file
to get things taken down and all of that.

602
00:28:26,498 --> 00:28:31,968
But when we're talking about protecting
content, I'm like, well,

603
00:28:31,986 --> 00:28:35,246
Your day -to -day content you post on
social media, I think would be exhausting

604
00:28:35,246 --> 00:28:38,406
to file like copyright for all of these
kinds of things.

605
00:28:38,406 --> 00:28:41,366
I don't even know how we would keep up
with, with doing that.

606
00:28:41,366 --> 00:28:45,026
That would just be an insane amount of, of
work, at least on my end.

607
00:28:45,026 --> 00:28:49,126
So I think that the way that I've thought
about this, like, I always tell my

608
00:28:49,126 --> 00:28:53,266
customers, like, I take my lawyer hat off
and this is like more my marketing normal

609
00:28:53,266 --> 00:28:54,546
person hat.

610
00:28:54,546 --> 00:28:58,506
I, I personally take the approach of
protecting your bread and butter.

611
00:28:58,506 --> 00:29:01,234
So if it was your online course, for
example,

612
00:29:01,362 --> 00:29:06,942
a digital product, maybe video trainings
that you do, I would send those off to the

613
00:29:06,942 --> 00:29:10,722
US Copyright Office for registration and
protection.

614
00:29:10,722 --> 00:29:14,642
It's easy, like a million times easier
than getting a trademark.

615
00:29:14,642 --> 00:29:17,982
It's fast, a million times faster than
getting a trademark, and it's a lot

616
00:29:17,982 --> 00:29:18,802
cheaper.

617
00:29:18,802 --> 00:29:20,872
So it's, and it's something you can do
yourself.

618
00:29:20,872 --> 00:29:24,022
I have a training inside the Ultimate
Bundle of how to get a copyright.

619
00:29:24,022 --> 00:29:28,842
I literally walk people through, like in a
screen capture video of showing them how I

620
00:29:28,842 --> 00:29:29,632
file my own.

621
00:29:29,632 --> 00:29:30,898
It's so easy.

622
00:29:30,898 --> 00:29:33,138
And I really believe people can do this.

623
00:29:33,138 --> 00:29:37,238
But of course, like I have to, if I put my
lawyer hat back on, I have to tell you,

624
00:29:37,238 --> 00:29:40,418
you have to do this for every single thing
and do this for every piece of content.

625
00:29:40,418 --> 00:29:44,098
I just don't think that's practical or
worth your time.

626
00:29:44,098 --> 00:29:50,018
I do it for the things that would, it
would cost me money and harm my business

627
00:29:50,018 --> 00:29:51,458
if someone took it.

628
00:29:51,458 --> 00:29:55,698
So for my online course, all my legal
templates, the videos, those are all

629
00:29:55,698 --> 00:29:57,746
registered with the US Copyright Office.

630
00:29:57,746 --> 00:30:01,906
The reason I'm saying that is because then
if something happens, this is like a slam

631
00:30:01,906 --> 00:30:02,226
dunk.

632
00:30:02,226 --> 00:30:04,586
It's like, it makes your life so much
easier.

633
00:30:04,586 --> 00:30:08,946
And if something happens and you didn't
register it, it puts you in a more

634
00:30:08,946 --> 00:30:09,826
difficult position.

635
00:30:09,826 --> 00:30:12,826
I'm not saying you're completely out of
luck, but you're going to have to work at

636
00:30:12,826 --> 00:30:12,976
it.

637
00:30:12,976 --> 00:30:16,686
Whereas you don't have to work at it at
all if you've registered, because you

638
00:30:16,686 --> 00:30:19,226
would be able to provide a copy of your
copyright certificate.

639
00:30:19,226 --> 00:30:22,642
You would be able to show this in the
thing would be taken down.

640
00:30:22,642 --> 00:30:24,802
Now you asked about like getting it taken
down.

641
00:30:24,802 --> 00:30:29,022
I mean, there's kind of two routes people
can go about this one is like if you had a

642
00:30:29,022 --> 00:30:33,782
copyright, for example, even if you
didn't, you could hire an attorney to send

643
00:30:33,782 --> 00:30:35,122
a cease and desist letter.

644
00:30:35,122 --> 00:30:39,322
There's also a cease and desist letter
template in my bundle, for example.

645
00:30:39,322 --> 00:30:41,832
But I'm trying to cover all the bases,
guys.

646
00:30:41,832 --> 00:30:44,262
And so I try to help everybody out.

647
00:30:44,262 --> 00:30:44,672
Yeah.

648
00:30:44,672 --> 00:30:46,882
So you can send a cease and desist letter.

649
00:30:46,882 --> 00:30:48,252
It doesn't have to come from an attorney.

650
00:30:48,252 --> 00:30:50,418
But as I always say, it has teeth when it
does.

651
00:30:50,418 --> 00:30:53,258
you know, no offense to everybody else,
but it's just the way it works when you

652
00:30:53,258 --> 00:30:56,058
see Esquire after the name, you start to
sweat.

653
00:30:56,198 --> 00:30:59,558
So, you know, they, they, you can send
this letter saying you have to take it

654
00:30:59,558 --> 00:30:59,978
down.

655
00:30:59,978 --> 00:31:03,678
The cool thing about when you have a
copyright, when you've actually registered

656
00:31:03,678 --> 00:31:08,738
it, is that when they send those, they'll
often attach like a copy of the copyright

657
00:31:08,738 --> 00:31:09,718
certificate.

658
00:31:09,718 --> 00:31:12,718
And in that case, it's just kind of like,
it's a slam dunk.

659
00:31:12,718 --> 00:31:13,358
Like this is over.

660
00:31:13,358 --> 00:31:14,448
You just have to take it down.

661
00:31:14,448 --> 00:31:18,068
And they would be subject to significant
penalties if they didn't.

662
00:31:18,068 --> 00:31:19,968
So you really are.

663
00:31:20,178 --> 00:31:22,898
positioning yourself in a much stronger
way.

664
00:31:22,898 --> 00:31:27,718
So you could do that, or you can do,
depending on where they've posted this,

665
00:31:27,718 --> 00:31:31,418
where they've taken it, you know, all that
kind of stuff, you can do what's called a

666
00:31:31,418 --> 00:31:32,608
DMCA takedown notice.

667
00:31:32,608 --> 00:31:37,158
So that's another example where you can
contact both the host of the website that

668
00:31:37,158 --> 00:31:43,078
it's posted on or the platform or Google,
and you can provide this information,

669
00:31:43,078 --> 00:31:46,058
provide your copyright certificate and
say, this is stolen, this needs to be

670
00:31:46,058 --> 00:31:46,778
taken down.

671
00:31:46,778 --> 00:31:49,778
We're doing that right now with somebody
who's doing that with...

672
00:31:49,778 --> 00:31:54,698
my podcast and also we just found a bunch
of my products for sale on someone else's

673
00:31:54,698 --> 00:31:57,698
website and they're labeling them as being
mine and just saying they're selling them

674
00:31:57,698 --> 00:31:58,578
at a discount.

675
00:31:58,578 --> 00:31:59,978
Yeah, that was pretty fun.

676
00:31:59,978 --> 00:32:04,418
Yeah, so they're literally saying like Sam
VanRoekel templates for sale for this

677
00:32:04,418 --> 00:32:06,878
amount and so this is how we're going
about it.

678
00:32:06,878 --> 00:32:09,398
Like you don't even have that's why I was
saying earlier like you don't have to

679
00:32:09,398 --> 00:32:10,818
contact them because there's no point.

680
00:32:10,818 --> 00:32:16,898
We just contact the host which you can
easily tell on websites like who is which

681
00:32:16,898 --> 00:32:19,570
tell you what you know who's the host of
somebody's website.

682
00:32:19,570 --> 00:32:23,910
You contact the host, you file a DMCA
takedown notice, and it's kind of as

683
00:32:23,910 --> 00:32:25,050
simple as that.

684
00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:28,150
I've had pretty good luck on places like
Instagram.

685
00:32:28,370 --> 00:32:34,850
I get ripped off a lot and we're able to
just file the complaint form with them.

686
00:32:34,850 --> 00:32:38,130
The key with Instagram, you know, we could
do a whole episode about this.

687
00:32:38,130 --> 00:32:42,490
So I'll just give you my best tip is that
the mistake people make is that they think

688
00:32:42,490 --> 00:32:46,210
like when you click the little three dots
in the upper right corner of a post and

689
00:32:46,210 --> 00:32:48,750
hit like report, they think that's the way
to do it.

690
00:32:48,750 --> 00:32:49,394
No, no.

691
00:32:49,394 --> 00:32:53,194
You have to go on your desktop or on your
laptop and you have to go to Instagram's

692
00:32:53,194 --> 00:32:53,524
website.

693
00:32:53,524 --> 00:32:58,494
They actually have a legitimate form that
you fill out and you submit like a

694
00:32:58,494 --> 00:32:59,564
complaint and depends what it is.

695
00:32:59,564 --> 00:33:03,474
If it's a copyright complaint, if it's a
trademark infringement.

696
00:33:03,474 --> 00:33:06,794
So it depends what it is or if someone's
imitating your likeness, right?

697
00:33:06,794 --> 00:33:09,274
If they're stealing all your photos and
pretending to be you.

698
00:33:09,274 --> 00:33:12,794
So it depends on the situation, but they
have a form, a page for every single one

699
00:33:12,794 --> 00:33:13,474
of those.

700
00:33:13,474 --> 00:33:14,514
Those are legit.

701
00:33:14,514 --> 00:33:18,642
And when you fill those out and you do it
right and you put all the information in,

702
00:33:18,642 --> 00:33:20,362
That's when your stuff actually gets
handled.

703
00:33:20,362 --> 00:33:24,362
Cause everybody tells me like, I tried
reporting it on Instagram.

704
00:33:24,362 --> 00:33:25,722
Like, how'd you do it?

705
00:33:25,722 --> 00:33:27,642
If it's in the app, it won't, it won't
work.

706
00:33:27,642 --> 00:33:29,770
I think they just get inundated with that.

707
00:33:30,012 --> 00:33:31,962
So helpful, thank you.

708
00:33:31,962 --> 00:33:35,872
And this particular client I was
referencing of ours, he is actually in the

709
00:33:35,872 --> 00:33:40,332
UK, I assume they have a very similar
process.

710
00:33:40,672 --> 00:33:46,552
And do you offer, like do you Sam, offer
to send cease indices letters as like an

711
00:33:46,552 --> 00:33:49,484
upsell or is that not at all part of your
service?

712
00:33:49,484 --> 00:33:52,434
because it so if we go back to what we
were talking about earlier, at least where

713
00:33:52,434 --> 00:33:58,694
I am licensed in two states, it is illegal
for attorneys to provide services and try

714
00:33:58,694 --> 00:34:02,394
to do like what I'm doing at the same time
on the same website.

715
00:34:02,394 --> 00:34:06,244
So I make I made a decision very early on,
like I'm not offering any services.

716
00:34:06,244 --> 00:34:09,314
I'm just selling these templates,
providing education.

717
00:34:09,314 --> 00:34:13,214
So I give people the template to be able
to send themselves if they want to.

718
00:34:13,214 --> 00:34:16,434
Otherwise, I give everybody in the bundle,
for example.

719
00:34:16,434 --> 00:34:19,974
the questions, the conversation to go have
with their attorney so that they go in

720
00:34:19,974 --> 00:34:23,044
armed with all the information, which then
saves them a lot of money and a lot,

721
00:34:23,044 --> 00:34:26,254
because you have to remember when dealing
with attorneys, it's all about time.

722
00:34:26,254 --> 00:34:29,514
So the most, if I can save you any time,
saving you a lot of money.

723
00:34:29,514 --> 00:34:32,974
And so I give them like all the questions
to go in and tell them what paperwork to

724
00:34:32,974 --> 00:34:34,714
bring, exactly what to tell them.

725
00:34:34,714 --> 00:34:38,054
Like, and they basically just come in with
it all prepared already, and then they

726
00:34:38,054 --> 00:34:40,414
just need the lawyer to send it for them.

727
00:34:40,594 --> 00:34:42,374
Yeah, much easier.

728
00:34:42,374 --> 00:34:43,068
Yeah.

729
00:34:43,068 --> 00:34:43,628
Okay.

730
00:34:43,628 --> 00:34:47,652
GTFP with GDPR and all of the acronyms and
all the things.

731
00:34:47,652 --> 00:34:51,802
I'm like when GDPR first came out, I was
like, I couldn't, I couldn't say it right

732
00:34:51,802 --> 00:34:52,964
for a while.

733
00:34:52,964 --> 00:34:55,704
I think it took us all the while to catch
on there.

734
00:34:56,814 --> 00:34:57,754
that was very helpful.

735
00:34:57,754 --> 00:34:59,444
That was extremely helpful.

736
00:34:59,444 --> 00:34:59,824
Okay.

737
00:34:59,824 --> 00:35:01,354
And this is kind of an adjacent topic.

738
00:35:01,354 --> 00:35:04,244
You and I were talking about this before I
hit record.

739
00:35:04,244 --> 00:35:09,524
Let's talk about generative content
produced by large language models, AKA

740
00:35:09,524 --> 00:35:12,764
chat, GPT, Gemini, Copilot, all that
stuff.

741
00:35:12,764 --> 00:35:19,684
What's your take on both the ethical and
legal side of AI produced content and what

742
00:35:19,684 --> 00:35:21,844
do creators using AI?

743
00:35:22,276 --> 00:35:25,856
to write content need to be aware of from
a legal standpoint.

744
00:35:26,802 --> 00:35:33,062
Yeah, I mean, I always think marketing
brain first and maybe I'm old school or

745
00:35:33,062 --> 00:35:33,402
something.

746
00:35:33,402 --> 00:35:37,062
And I just am like, well, I just want to
create my own content.

747
00:35:37,062 --> 00:35:39,842
I love it and I enjoy it.

748
00:35:39,842 --> 00:35:46,022
I also, I know at this point the
importance of being unique and leaning

749
00:35:46,022 --> 00:35:51,154
into your unique differentiators, having a
voice and like, you know, I know that.

750
00:35:51,154 --> 00:35:55,134
people on my email list, if I started
using AI generated content, for example,

751
00:35:55,134 --> 00:35:56,964
my email list, they would sniff out and
heartbeat.

752
00:35:56,964 --> 00:35:59,404
I have such a specific writing styles.

753
00:35:59,404 --> 00:36:02,334
I tell little anecdotes, I'm sarcastic,
I'm self -deprecating.

754
00:36:02,334 --> 00:36:06,144
It's just like there's no way this would
capture it, right?

755
00:36:06,144 --> 00:36:07,634
So I think it has its place.

756
00:36:07,634 --> 00:36:10,574
That's like my personal opinion, but I
think it has its place for different

757
00:36:10,574 --> 00:36:11,494
things.

758
00:36:11,494 --> 00:36:16,394
But I'm mostly concerned about all of you
using it in your business.

759
00:36:16,394 --> 00:36:19,602
And so I'm concerned about it from a
marketing standpoint.

760
00:36:19,602 --> 00:36:22,702
I'm also concerned about it from a legal
standpoint.

761
00:36:23,582 --> 00:36:28,302
As I was sharing with Amanda, one of my
customers asked me, what's the legality of

762
00:36:28,302 --> 00:36:31,542
creating content on places like chat, GBT,
do you own it?

763
00:36:31,542 --> 00:36:33,142
And I was like, what a good idea.

764
00:36:33,142 --> 00:36:40,262
So I went and actually read the terms,
OpenAI's terms, and they do offer you the

765
00:36:40,262 --> 00:36:43,922
intellectual property in what you create,
what they call the output content.

766
00:36:43,922 --> 00:36:45,938
So when you put in a little...

767
00:36:45,938 --> 00:36:49,478
question or prompt or whatever, and
whatever it spits out, they're saying that

768
00:36:49,478 --> 00:36:50,788
you can own that.

769
00:36:50,788 --> 00:36:55,218
However, they will not only not guarantee,
but they basically offer you up the fact

770
00:36:55,218 --> 00:36:59,398
that they offer that content to other
people who have similar prompts or similar

771
00:36:59,398 --> 00:37:01,258
questions in the app.

772
00:37:01,258 --> 00:37:05,888
So it's like, how can you own content that
other people are already having access to?

773
00:37:05,888 --> 00:37:09,278
I mean, we just got done having this
conversation about content being ripped

774
00:37:09,278 --> 00:37:09,618
off.

775
00:37:09,618 --> 00:37:13,362
And it's like, how would you have a leg to
stand on if you're using

776
00:37:13,362 --> 00:37:16,712
a platform to generate content that wasn't
really yours in the first place.

777
00:37:16,712 --> 00:37:20,042
And then they're saying in the terms that
they're offering it to other people.

778
00:37:20,042 --> 00:37:25,782
The whole point of copyrighting content is
that you are basically certifying for lack

779
00:37:25,782 --> 00:37:29,962
of a better term, the content you're
creating is original.

780
00:37:29,962 --> 00:37:34,702
So when you go to submit things to the US
Copyright Office, for example, you are

781
00:37:34,702 --> 00:37:39,826
saying this is original and it is my work
and is my work exclusively.

782
00:37:39,826 --> 00:37:42,446
I mean, they even have a thing on there
that says, like, do you have a co -author?

783
00:37:42,446 --> 00:37:43,396
Did you have anybody else?

784
00:37:43,396 --> 00:37:46,126
Like, is there anyone else who contributed
to this work?

785
00:37:46,126 --> 00:37:46,326
Right.

786
00:37:46,326 --> 00:37:51,786
It's like, I just don't know how this is
all going to square with owning copyright

787
00:37:51,786 --> 00:37:52,416
and something.

788
00:37:52,416 --> 00:37:56,686
So I personally wouldn't use it for
anything that I then wanted to turn around

789
00:37:56,686 --> 00:37:58,026
and own.

790
00:37:58,026 --> 00:37:58,506
Right.

791
00:37:58,506 --> 00:38:02,906
Both for those marketing and legal
reasons.

792
00:38:02,906 --> 00:38:04,926
So I think that's concerning.

793
00:38:04,926 --> 00:38:08,786
I think my other concern over some of the
apps too is that I don't know.

794
00:38:08,786 --> 00:38:13,246
always where the copy is being pulled
from.

795
00:38:13,246 --> 00:38:17,106
And so then I would be concerned that I
could be potentially infringing on someone

796
00:38:17,106 --> 00:38:21,786
else's work if they're pulling some
verbiage from someone's blog post or

797
00:38:21,786 --> 00:38:23,586
something like that, you know, off Google.

798
00:38:23,586 --> 00:38:26,538
So that is a bit concerning to me as well.

799
00:38:27,012 --> 00:38:28,432
Hmm.

800
00:38:28,432 --> 00:38:36,692
So do you recommend AI usage for anything
like brainstorming partner or script help

801
00:38:36,692 --> 00:38:37,132
or anything?

802
00:38:37,132 --> 00:38:38,620
Or you just like, no.

803
00:38:39,474 --> 00:38:42,494
No, I've liked it for title generation.

804
00:38:42,494 --> 00:38:44,454
So I have my own podcast as well.

805
00:38:44,454 --> 00:38:50,194
And so when I go to do podcast titling,
I'm hovering around something I want to

806
00:38:50,194 --> 00:38:54,094
call it and I'll put it into something
that I use.

807
00:38:54,094 --> 00:38:58,094
And I'm like, that's actually specific to
title generation, but they're using AI for

808
00:38:58,094 --> 00:38:58,874
title.

809
00:38:58,874 --> 00:39:00,854
And I'm like, let me see what they come up
with.

810
00:39:00,854 --> 00:39:04,074
And then you can manipulate the individual
titles to be like, I want this to be

811
00:39:04,074 --> 00:39:07,858
funnier or more mysterious or more fear
driven or whatever.

812
00:39:07,858 --> 00:39:09,078
I like playing with it.

813
00:39:09,078 --> 00:39:10,838
I find it very fascinating.

814
00:39:10,838 --> 00:39:13,648
I always though, I mean, maybe it's just
like, I don't know, I'm a Scorpio.

815
00:39:13,648 --> 00:39:16,398
So I'm like, I'm not just going to take
your suggestion.

816
00:39:16,398 --> 00:39:20,058
Whatever suggestion they give me, I'm
like, I have to put my spin on this.

817
00:39:20,438 --> 00:39:26,698
I take a lot of pride in what I do and I
would encourage other people to take a

818
00:39:26,698 --> 00:39:30,478
similar approach that you're putting your
name behind this stuff.

819
00:39:30,478 --> 00:39:35,078
So sure, I think it's great for idea
generation, outline, prompts, titles,

820
00:39:35,078 --> 00:39:36,478
whatever you want to do.

821
00:39:36,478 --> 00:39:37,586
But I...

822
00:39:37,586 --> 00:39:43,546
I just want you to stand behind, like
fully, fully stand behind what you're, I

823
00:39:43,546 --> 00:39:44,816
don't know, putting out into the world.

824
00:39:44,816 --> 00:39:48,366
Like there's so much, there's so much
content, so much noise, there's so much

825
00:39:48,366 --> 00:39:50,506
good content, there's so much bad content.

826
00:39:50,506 --> 00:39:52,186
Do you want to make this choice?

827
00:39:52,186 --> 00:39:54,236
Like, is this what you want to put out
there?

828
00:39:54,236 --> 00:39:56,846
I guess that's what comes up for me.

829
00:39:56,846 --> 00:40:01,866
My husband's a professor and people, like
kids have now started submitting papers to

830
00:40:01,866 --> 00:40:04,386
him that are clearly AI generated.

831
00:40:04,386 --> 00:40:04,850
And

832
00:40:04,850 --> 00:40:08,330
All he has to do is ask them one question
about it and then boom, the whole thing

833
00:40:08,330 --> 00:40:08,849
falls apart.

834
00:40:08,849 --> 00:40:11,230
They have no idea what the thing says.

835
00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:16,830
And I'm like thinking about this in the
content space that, you know, I just, I

836
00:40:16,830 --> 00:40:20,630
personally would not be able to live with
myself knowing that I'm putting something

837
00:40:20,630 --> 00:40:24,070
out there that I either don't understand
or I can't stand behind.

838
00:40:24,070 --> 00:40:30,210
It's a little concerning to me too, that
like, if you need to have this generated

839
00:40:30,210 --> 00:40:34,310
for you, then perhaps you're talking about
something that's a little out of turn.

840
00:40:34,310 --> 00:40:34,642
I,

841
00:40:34,642 --> 00:40:35,602
I don't know.

842
00:40:35,602 --> 00:40:39,642
I mean, there's a big difference between
generating ideas and titles and outlines

843
00:40:39,642 --> 00:40:43,482
versus like, this is gonna generate all my
blog posts, this is gonna generate all my

844
00:40:43,482 --> 00:40:44,652
content or my weekly emails.

845
00:40:44,652 --> 00:40:48,802
Like to me, that's a big difference and I
can see a reason for it.

846
00:40:48,802 --> 00:40:52,542
I just don't want it to be like the
backbone of someone's business.

847
00:40:53,562 --> 00:40:54,822
Yeah.

848
00:40:55,062 --> 00:40:56,106
Yeah.

849
00:40:56,300 --> 00:41:02,540
hey, just be aware that this is basically
un -copyrightable potentially in that

850
00:41:02,540 --> 00:41:08,240
information that you've inputted into
chat, GBT or whatever your preferred bot

851
00:41:08,240 --> 00:41:09,080
is.

852
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:11,410
The results that you're getting are
available to others.

853
00:41:11,410 --> 00:41:14,200
It is not now like uniquely yours.

854
00:41:14,200 --> 00:41:17,140
So that's a very important sort of like
nuance to understand.

855
00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:20,644
So I think what I'm hearing is make an
informed decision, like know what the...

856
00:41:20,644 --> 00:41:25,484
implications and potential sort of trickle
-down consequences are of using AI

857
00:41:25,484 --> 00:41:27,224
-generated content.

858
00:41:28,224 --> 00:41:30,582
Yeah, is that a fair summary?

859
00:41:31,122 --> 00:41:35,522
It is the thing I'm thinking, remembering
too, as you're saying this is that you're

860
00:41:35,522 --> 00:41:37,652
also liable for whatever you're putting
out there.

861
00:41:37,652 --> 00:41:41,522
And I think this is this tip can apply to
lots and lots of different things that

862
00:41:41,522 --> 00:41:44,002
we're putting, you know, that we're
talking about today.

863
00:41:44,002 --> 00:41:47,972
But I think sometimes people think that
when they're using a tool or a software,

864
00:41:47,972 --> 00:41:52,342
whether it's ConvertKit or a chat, GBT or
any other tool or software, like if that

865
00:41:52,342 --> 00:41:55,722
or like PayPal and they're handling your
payments now, all of a sudden you're not

866
00:41:55,722 --> 00:41:56,702
responsible for it.

867
00:41:56,702 --> 00:41:58,322
That couldn't be further from the truth.

868
00:41:58,322 --> 00:42:00,114
So as a business owner,

869
00:42:00,114 --> 00:42:02,374
you're responsible for whatever happens.

870
00:42:02,374 --> 00:42:06,654
So like if you put out bad content or
content that has something dangerous in it

871
00:42:06,654 --> 00:42:10,554
or that ripped off someone else's content
and you didn't know because you got it

872
00:42:10,554 --> 00:42:13,914
from G chat GPT or wherever that's on you.

873
00:42:13,914 --> 00:42:17,494
So like I think that would be my other
thing is like sort almost like source

874
00:42:17,494 --> 00:42:17,964
checking.

875
00:42:17,964 --> 00:42:19,674
I would just be concerned.

876
00:42:19,674 --> 00:42:24,834
The other thing that this the other place
that this comes up in my own business that

877
00:42:24,834 --> 00:42:27,914
my friend the other day told me this was
really smart and I was like, I didn't, I

878
00:42:27,914 --> 00:42:29,490
didn't think twice about doing this, but.

879
00:42:29,490 --> 00:42:33,600
When we hire people to write something for
the business, if they're a copywriter,

880
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:38,350
they're going to help us with blog posts
or give us any kind of content, we run it

881
00:42:38,350 --> 00:42:41,750
not only through a plagiarism checker, but
I run it through an AI checker now as

882
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:45,630
well, because I am not paying people to
write original content that they are then

883
00:42:45,630 --> 00:42:46,900
pumping out through AI.

884
00:42:46,900 --> 00:42:50,330
If you want to hire somebody to pump out
something through AI, that's fine, but

885
00:42:50,330 --> 00:42:51,890
that's probably a different price of it.

886
00:42:51,890 --> 00:42:53,850
It's also just different expectations.

887
00:42:53,850 --> 00:42:55,760
And so I'm paying for original content.

888
00:42:55,760 --> 00:42:59,186
So that is also something we're checking
on the backend as a...

889
00:42:59,186 --> 00:43:02,426
business owner, I would also just
encourage you to think about this when

890
00:43:02,426 --> 00:43:04,036
people are turning things into you.

891
00:43:04,036 --> 00:43:05,296
I love that.

892
00:43:05,296 --> 00:43:08,116
Do you want to recommend the tools you're
using to do that?

893
00:43:08,116 --> 00:43:10,802
Or we could link those up in the show
notes as well.

894
00:43:10,802 --> 00:43:13,842
I was gonna say we can send you the link
because I know Lindsay, my director of

895
00:43:13,842 --> 00:43:16,662
operations, this is her job when things
are coming in.

896
00:43:16,662 --> 00:43:19,702
She's checking this before anything goes
up.

897
00:43:19,702 --> 00:43:23,190
And so yeah, we can happily share links to
those resources.

898
00:43:23,190 --> 00:43:23,720
I'll link those up.

899
00:43:23,720 --> 00:43:27,040
That's such a gut, a good gut check for
sure.

900
00:43:27,620 --> 00:43:28,380
Thank you.

901
00:43:28,380 --> 00:43:29,920
That was very helpful.

902
00:43:30,240 --> 00:43:33,200
Okay, I'm going to switch gears here a
little bit, but I'm trying to hit like

903
00:43:33,200 --> 00:43:39,030
major legal spicy topics for like all the
creators and thought leaders listening.

904
00:43:39,030 --> 00:43:44,760
So I want to dive into the subject of
equity as in business ownership shares for

905
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:45,820
creators.

906
00:43:45,880 --> 00:43:47,220
Super hot topic right now.

907
00:43:47,220 --> 00:43:51,588
And the data is showing, this is so crazy,
affinity for creators.

908
00:43:51,588 --> 00:43:58,468
is about to eclipse affinity for like
iconic trillion dollar global brands,

909
00:43:58,468 --> 00:44:00,628
which is a big deal with a capital B.

910
00:44:00,628 --> 00:44:04,628
I'm talking like everybody has three to
five creators that they really, really

911
00:44:04,628 --> 00:44:09,428
like or influencers and the affinity that
a follower feels for those three to five

912
00:44:09,428 --> 00:44:15,088
people is greater than that, that that
person might feel for Google, Apple,

913
00:44:15,408 --> 00:44:18,348
Lululemon, Patagonia, Nike, Coca -Cola.

914
00:44:18,348 --> 00:44:21,098
Like that's blowing my mind from a
marketing standpoint.

915
00:44:21,746 --> 00:44:22,634
Yeah.

916
00:44:23,084 --> 00:44:25,683
that's so cool for creators, but here's
the problem.

917
00:44:25,683 --> 00:44:30,524
I see creators getting taken advantage of
left, right, and sideways and not being

918
00:44:30,524 --> 00:44:35,504
paid what they're worth for brand deals
and sponsorships.

919
00:44:35,504 --> 00:44:39,824
It's frustrating to me to no end, like
truly I have a whole soapbox about it, but

920
00:44:39,824 --> 00:44:43,804
companies who are buying these brand deals
and sponsorship, they know how valuable

921
00:44:43,804 --> 00:44:46,180
access to these creator audiences are.

922
00:44:46,180 --> 00:44:49,700
But creators typically, through no fault
of their own, like typically neither

923
00:44:49,700 --> 00:44:54,840
possess the mindset or the business acumen
to be able to accurately value and capture

924
00:44:54,840 --> 00:44:58,380
the compensation they should be getting on
those deals.

925
00:44:58,380 --> 00:45:02,580
And I mean, I'm like on a personal mission
here to change that narrative and get

926
00:45:02,580 --> 00:45:06,550
creators paid and set them up for long
-term success.

927
00:45:06,550 --> 00:45:11,120
Not only like spotty revenue here and
there, but you know, the whole business,

928
00:45:11,120 --> 00:45:13,540
like that's the point of our business
right now, just brand deals.

929
00:45:13,540 --> 00:45:16,252
But this is a hot topic, so that's why I'm
bringing it up.

930
00:45:16,292 --> 00:45:20,812
Okay, so based on the way that things are
right now, we really can't talk about

931
00:45:20,812 --> 00:45:24,752
creator income without talking about brand
deals and sponsorships.

932
00:45:24,752 --> 00:45:29,552
So I'm of the mind that equity should be
part of that conversation for creators who

933
00:45:29,552 --> 00:45:33,392
are driving tremendous and consistent
value to companies.

934
00:45:33,571 --> 00:45:40,012
So can we talk about the logistics of an
arrangement like that and potentially how

935
00:45:40,012 --> 00:45:45,202
a creator could broach that topic with the
companies that repeatedly sponsor them?

936
00:45:45,202 --> 00:45:45,540
You're not.

937
00:45:45,540 --> 00:45:48,620
You're not going to get equity in a
company or shares in a company on the

938
00:45:48,620 --> 00:45:49,050
first go.

939
00:45:49,050 --> 00:45:52,150
But if you're an ambassador for a company,
somebody's come back to you four, five,

940
00:45:52,150 --> 00:45:57,140
six times to do a five, 10, 15, $25 ,000
brand deal.

941
00:45:57,180 --> 00:45:59,940
I think there's a point at which you can
talk about equity.

942
00:45:59,940 --> 00:46:01,660
So how, what's your take on that?

943
00:46:02,290 --> 00:46:03,890
Yeah, it's so interesting.

944
00:46:03,890 --> 00:46:06,910
I mean, I don't I don't see why not to
your point, right?

945
00:46:06,910 --> 00:46:08,390
If they're this is the future.

946
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:10,410
It's here and it's also the future.

947
00:46:10,410 --> 00:46:15,470
But I will first foremost, I would tell
people that this is the kind of thing I

948
00:46:15,470 --> 00:46:20,170
would only ever do with the guidance of an
attorney, because a lot of times when I do

949
00:46:20,170 --> 00:46:25,430
hear about people being taken advantage of
with these brand deals, it's because they

950
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:29,410
didn't have anyone look over anything for
them.

951
00:46:29,470 --> 00:46:31,442
It's often when I'll hear.

952
00:46:31,442 --> 00:46:36,962
from some of my customers that they see
themselves in ads, for example, like

953
00:46:36,962 --> 00:46:40,142
months and years down the line that are
doing super, super well and they were paid

954
00:46:40,142 --> 00:46:45,742
like 200 bucks or something ridiculous
for, and they know what they're making off

955
00:46:45,742 --> 00:46:46,072
of it.

956
00:46:46,072 --> 00:46:51,062
So really understanding all of like what
you're giving up, what you're giving, what

957
00:46:51,062 --> 00:46:53,482
you're getting in return, what those
opportunities are.

958
00:46:53,482 --> 00:46:56,942
And then in order for you to pitch this
opportunity, for example, which I think is

959
00:46:56,942 --> 00:46:58,180
a great idea,

960
00:46:58,194 --> 00:47:02,054
having a lawyer there that really
understands the terms and what you get so

961
00:47:02,054 --> 00:47:03,924
that you don't ultimately get screwed
over.

962
00:47:03,924 --> 00:47:07,332
So I would say that that's how I would
approach it.

963
00:47:07,332 --> 00:47:08,572
Okay, cool.

964
00:47:08,852 --> 00:47:17,252
And then, I guess, is there a two minute
opportunity here to help creators

965
00:47:17,252 --> 00:47:21,912
understand how equity works at companies?

966
00:47:21,912 --> 00:47:24,632
I mean, obviously, okay, yes, you need to
have your own legal representation, but

967
00:47:24,632 --> 00:47:28,552
how would you even approach your own
lawyer to talk about this, to have an

968
00:47:28,552 --> 00:47:31,046
intelligent conversation about equity?

969
00:47:32,498 --> 00:47:36,878
Yeah, I would say, okay, so I would say if
first of all, go into a lawyer who then

970
00:47:36,878 --> 00:47:41,258
understands what you do would be really
helpful because that's going to reduce

971
00:47:41,258 --> 00:47:44,758
some of the friction in the conversation
for understanding how you're contributing

972
00:47:44,758 --> 00:47:47,038
to this company's growth.

973
00:47:47,038 --> 00:47:50,358
So I think going to them and saying, going
to them first of all with your stats, like

974
00:47:50,358 --> 00:47:53,878
very specific stats in hand of saying,
this is how many, I don't know, whatever

975
00:47:53,878 --> 00:47:57,118
it is, views you're getting, or if you
know how many sales you're making, you

976
00:47:57,118 --> 00:48:01,074
would share about this, how many campaigns
you're running for them.

977
00:48:01,074 --> 00:48:05,674
per year, how much work's going into that,
how much time and effort, maybe that you

978
00:48:05,674 --> 00:48:06,594
have some other ideas.

979
00:48:06,594 --> 00:48:10,214
I mean, I wouldn't ultimately share this
with the company until they sign off on

980
00:48:10,214 --> 00:48:13,414
it, but that you have other ideas of ways
that you could expand this partnership.

981
00:48:13,414 --> 00:48:16,834
But with the amount of time and attention
that that's going to take, you're going to

982
00:48:16,834 --> 00:48:24,134
need to see a different payment structure
so that you also want to, I guess, go in

983
00:48:24,134 --> 00:48:28,014
and tell the attorney that you want to
have more of a long -term relationship.

984
00:48:28,014 --> 00:48:30,578
Like this is something you're looking to
do.

985
00:48:30,578 --> 00:48:34,478
partner with and when you partner with
someone, you get equity typically.

986
00:48:34,478 --> 00:48:39,838
So getting a share of that company, of
that company's profits in exchange for a

987
00:48:39,838 --> 00:48:44,578
bit more of a marriage of sorts, you know,
and giving that time and attention to them

988
00:48:44,578 --> 00:48:45,858
over the long term.

989
00:48:45,858 --> 00:48:49,538
You know, I think pitching it to the
company too is like they're running

990
00:48:49,538 --> 00:48:53,818
through a lot of different influencers,
but becoming the person who's kind of like

991
00:48:53,818 --> 00:48:58,578
known for something, being able to lend
that creative or consultant type.

992
00:48:58,578 --> 00:49:02,358
lens to them from a social media
perspective would be really cool.

993
00:49:02,358 --> 00:49:05,558
Bringing in, I mean, it depends on maybe
the person's audience or a size of

994
00:49:05,558 --> 00:49:08,118
audience, but saying like, I have this
whole group of people here, the

995
00:49:08,118 --> 00:49:11,578
demographics about these people, this is
how they're going to help contribute.

996
00:49:11,578 --> 00:49:16,838
I always think it's cool when you talk to
either the lawyer or the brand side about

997
00:49:16,838 --> 00:49:19,758
the trends that you see, like really
showing them that you're plugged in and

998
00:49:19,758 --> 00:49:23,798
you see what's coming, that you're going
to be able, that why you're actually a

999
00:49:23,798 --> 00:49:26,618
part of what's going to be able to get
them there.

1000
00:49:26,770 --> 00:49:29,650
and even helping them stand apart from
their own competitors.

1001
00:49:29,650 --> 00:49:33,530
I think that would be really cool to say
like, you guys are different than this

1002
00:49:33,530 --> 00:49:34,480
other company.

1003
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:37,570
And that's part of what I'm going to be
able to help you with in my audience is

1004
00:49:37,570 --> 00:49:41,150
more like they relate more to you guys
than the other person.

1005
00:49:41,150 --> 00:49:44,990
So I think that those would be things that
I would probably go in armed both with

1006
00:49:44,990 --> 00:49:47,782
talking with your own attorney and the
company ultimately.

1007
00:49:47,782 --> 00:49:47,972
Yeah.

1008
00:49:47,972 --> 00:49:49,272
You got into sales pitch there.

1009
00:49:49,272 --> 00:49:49,792
That's awesome.

1010
00:49:49,792 --> 00:49:51,432
That's really good advice.

1011
00:49:52,132 --> 00:49:55,472
yeah, I'm thinking of another one of our
clients and, I was having a conversation

1012
00:49:55,472 --> 00:50:00,472
with him a couple of weeks, lots of
followers, very popular, very influential,

1013
00:50:00,472 --> 00:50:03,582
now doing some consulting gigs for like
global brands.

1014
00:50:03,582 --> 00:50:06,072
I mean, like really, really hitting their
stride.

1015
00:50:06,072 --> 00:50:12,312
And, he was asking me like, I want to make
all my business to make $10 million a

1016
00:50:12,312 --> 00:50:13,052
year.

1017
00:50:13,220 --> 00:50:16,460
how in the hell could I possibly get there
with what I have in front of me?

1018
00:50:16,460 --> 00:50:19,620
I was like, well, working on digital
product side and optimizing revenue

1019
00:50:19,620 --> 00:50:22,400
through LTV maximization, blah, blah,
blah, all these things.

1020
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,770
And so that's a very, very significant
piece of that.

1021
00:50:24,770 --> 00:50:27,980
We're working in recurring revenue,
opportunities for like a small group, high

1022
00:50:27,980 --> 00:50:30,040
ticket coaching program, and that's all
great.

1023
00:50:30,040 --> 00:50:33,940
But for these companies that you are doing
consulting for, you have like a very

1024
00:50:33,940 --> 00:50:36,070
unique value proposition and POV.

1025
00:50:36,070 --> 00:50:39,320
And so instead of taking cash upfront,
because we're going to take care of your

1026
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,820
cash needs and then some with like the
digital product offerings that we're

1027
00:50:41,820 --> 00:50:43,369
working for you over here.

1028
00:50:43,716 --> 00:50:50,716
But your exponential lever that you can
pull is to say, I only do consulting for

1029
00:50:50,716 --> 00:50:51,376
equity, right?

1030
00:50:51,376 --> 00:50:56,016
And so you have to find either publicly
traded companies who are, it's not too

1031
00:50:56,016 --> 00:51:00,076
hard to like set this kind of thing up and
even on a vesting schedule, that means you

1032
00:51:00,076 --> 00:51:04,076
don't get your shares immediately, but you
have to like do what you say you're going

1033
00:51:04,076 --> 00:51:07,496
to do over time and you get shares like
dripped out over the period of four years

1034
00:51:07,496 --> 00:51:08,496
typically.

1035
00:51:08,496 --> 00:51:12,708
I was saying you stop taking cash upfront,
go for equity only.

1036
00:51:12,708 --> 00:51:16,328
with a particular type of company, a very
unique value proposition.

1037
00:51:16,328 --> 00:51:20,848
But then earlier stage companies who have
open cap tables, like there's equities to

1038
00:51:20,848 --> 00:51:25,128
be distributed, like they have room in
their business structure to offer deals

1039
00:51:25,128 --> 00:51:27,668
like this to strategic business partners.

1040
00:51:27,668 --> 00:51:32,748
And so each creator listening probably has
a very specific niche and a very specific

1041
00:51:32,748 --> 00:51:38,338
and unique value proposition that aligns
with a certain type of company's goals,

1042
00:51:38,338 --> 00:51:39,088
right?

1043
00:51:39,088 --> 00:51:42,532
And so if you can kind of hit yourself to
their wagon,

1044
00:51:42,532 --> 00:51:46,252
And again, make that sales pitch that like
equity, you having equity in their

1045
00:51:46,252 --> 00:51:51,592
business will align your incentives long
term because you're in this for the long

1046
00:51:51,592 --> 00:51:54,692
haul, you're on a vesting schedule, you're
going for the long tail, you're going for

1047
00:51:54,692 --> 00:51:59,252
profit and then potentially like a payday
if the company goes public or is private

1048
00:51:59,252 --> 00:52:00,572
and sells.

1049
00:52:01,132 --> 00:52:06,812
That could be a really, really appealing
offer to an earlier stage company who

1050
00:52:06,812 --> 00:52:09,292
doesn't have a marketing team yet.

1051
00:52:09,292 --> 00:52:09,532
Right.

1052
00:52:09,532 --> 00:52:12,228
If you own their freaking customer base,

1053
00:52:12,228 --> 00:52:14,408
you have so much leverage.

1054
00:52:14,408 --> 00:52:18,628
And so, I mean, this podcast is all about
sort of like, not only protecting yourself

1055
00:52:18,628 --> 00:52:23,398
and being proactive in that regard, but
like, what are your other legal options?

1056
00:52:23,398 --> 00:52:27,448
What else is available to you in the
business world that companies know about

1057
00:52:27,448 --> 00:52:30,608
that you just don't know about yet, but
like, you can go in and get a slice of

1058
00:52:30,608 --> 00:52:31,548
that pie.

1059
00:52:31,548 --> 00:52:34,628
So I wanna help you kind of like edge your
way in there.

1060
00:52:35,346 --> 00:52:36,796
Yeah, that's really smart.

1061
00:52:36,796 --> 00:52:38,232
I like that advice.

1062
00:52:38,232 --> 00:52:41,992
I'm trying to help like as many of our
clients as possible do this and like

1063
00:52:41,992 --> 00:52:44,382
connecting them with a legal team who does
this kind of thing.

1064
00:52:44,382 --> 00:52:48,252
So I'm very interested in that
conversation because it's a massive

1065
00:52:48,252 --> 00:52:49,132
shortcut.

1066
00:52:49,132 --> 00:52:51,042
Cause a product is great.

1067
00:52:51,042 --> 00:52:55,312
A product is awesome, but like nothing
happens in business until something is

1068
00:52:55,312 --> 00:52:56,192
sold.

1069
00:52:56,192 --> 00:52:56,472
Right.

1070
00:52:56,472 --> 00:53:00,952
And so if you can connect with like a
technical founder of a software tool or a

1071
00:53:00,952 --> 00:53:05,152
product or whatever that they're looking
for your audience, you are like the

1072
00:53:05,152 --> 00:53:06,188
ultimate.

1073
00:53:06,244 --> 00:53:08,114
lever for them also.

1074
00:53:08,114 --> 00:53:11,484
And so again, going for incentive
alignment, mutually beneficial

1075
00:53:11,484 --> 00:53:12,344
arrangements.

1076
00:53:12,344 --> 00:53:15,464
So be thinking about equity if you're not
already.

1077
00:53:16,082 --> 00:53:17,664
Yeah, very cool.

1078
00:53:17,744 --> 00:53:19,674
right, so Sam, just a couple more real
quick questions.

1079
00:53:19,674 --> 00:53:21,704
I know we are going over time.

1080
00:53:21,704 --> 00:53:23,364
Thank you for your time.

1081
00:53:23,824 --> 00:53:28,104
You have obviously built a quite
successful multi -seven figure creator

1082
00:53:28,104 --> 00:53:33,124
business and recorded a few hundred
episodes of your podcast, done tons of

1083
00:53:33,124 --> 00:53:36,104
writing on all things online business.

1084
00:53:36,184 --> 00:53:40,004
And you are clearly a student of your
craft, which I really love.

1085
00:53:40,224 --> 00:53:46,116
But even with your background and law
degree, what are your top three things?

1086
00:53:46,116 --> 00:53:49,496
that have surprised you the most about
running your own business and what advice

1087
00:53:49,496 --> 00:53:52,860
do you have for our listeners based on
those learnings.

1088
00:53:53,586 --> 00:54:00,866
Yeah, I think one thing that has surprised
me is that how scrappy you have to be and

1089
00:54:00,866 --> 00:54:03,786
how much hard work there really is.

1090
00:54:03,866 --> 00:54:08,366
You know, I came in in 2016, 2017 when
we're kind of at the height of the

1091
00:54:08,366 --> 00:54:15,326
Instagram era of like aspirational
marketing, a lot of people showing off a

1092
00:54:15,326 --> 00:54:20,882
lifestyle that wasn't totally accurate and
honest and.

1093
00:54:20,882 --> 00:54:23,782
you know, really making a lot of pie in
the sky promises.

1094
00:54:23,782 --> 00:54:27,382
And so it was definitely sold as being
very easy.

1095
00:54:27,382 --> 00:54:30,642
And it's hard.

1096
00:54:30,642 --> 00:54:34,482
And I think then I would say my second
most surprising is that that difficulty

1097
00:54:34,482 --> 00:54:36,971
actually, I think, is a really fun thing.

1098
00:54:36,971 --> 00:54:39,712
It's a really positive thing because it
keeps you on your toes.

1099
00:54:39,712 --> 00:54:41,582
So I'm very, very grateful.

1100
00:54:41,582 --> 00:54:45,622
I mean, coming from a legal background
where we were working on flaws that are

1101
00:54:45,622 --> 00:54:48,594
hundreds of years old or decades old, at
least.

1102
00:54:48,594 --> 00:54:52,774
and nothing ever changed, you know, pretty
much you were working even off of like an

1103
00:54:52,774 --> 00:54:54,614
old British law system.

1104
00:54:54,894 --> 00:54:59,274
I think it's really cool to be like, you
know, people complain all the time about

1105
00:54:59,274 --> 00:55:01,504
the algorithm or this platform or that
platform.

1106
00:55:01,504 --> 00:55:03,404
I'm like, thank God it's so interesting.

1107
00:55:03,404 --> 00:55:07,514
Like it really keeps me on my toes and I
have to think about stuff all the time.

1108
00:55:07,514 --> 00:55:12,534
So I think that has been surprising, but
in a really good way.

1109
00:55:12,534 --> 00:55:17,970
I think the third thing that has been
surprising,

1110
00:55:17,970 --> 00:55:24,630
has been how difficult it's been to be on
my own, like owning the business on my

1111
00:55:24,630 --> 00:55:29,950
own, working by myself, even if you have a
team, like I'm not in an office anymore.

1112
00:55:29,950 --> 00:55:34,110
So that took a lot of adjustment in terms
of my day to day, like seeing the value

1113
00:55:34,110 --> 00:55:36,930
and getting myself out sometimes, even
just going to a coffee shop.

1114
00:55:36,930 --> 00:55:38,790
I love the library, funny enough.

1115
00:55:38,790 --> 00:55:42,140
So I go to the library all the time and
work, like just being around other humans,

1116
00:55:42,140 --> 00:55:44,210
but not talking to them necessarily.

1117
00:55:44,210 --> 00:55:45,202
That helps like.

1118
00:55:45,202 --> 00:55:49,082
kind of learning my style, like what is it
that I really want to do?

1119
00:55:49,082 --> 00:55:51,442
How do I want to work?

1120
00:55:51,542 --> 00:55:56,662
What do I really need to thrive, to be
creative, to brainstorm?

1121
00:55:56,742 --> 00:56:01,682
I've learned that I'm a very brainstormy
person, so I am having to talk to the team

1122
00:56:01,682 --> 00:56:03,642
to say, hey, I just got to like talk this
out.

1123
00:56:03,642 --> 00:56:07,342
I think that's just all been very
surprising to, I think you learn a lot

1124
00:56:07,342 --> 00:56:12,402
about yourself, how you work, how you best
function, how you best create as a

1125
00:56:12,402 --> 00:56:13,184
creator.

1126
00:56:13,316 --> 00:56:14,416
Awesome.

1127
00:56:14,416 --> 00:56:14,906
That's great.

1128
00:56:14,906 --> 00:56:16,336
Anything else?

1129
00:56:17,858 --> 00:56:22,718
I could go for days, but I think those are
the main things.

1130
00:56:23,578 --> 00:56:31,218
I think the battle with social media, like
being present on social media, that has

1131
00:56:31,218 --> 00:56:34,278
been an interesting journey for me that I
probably haven't talked about a lot.

1132
00:56:34,278 --> 00:56:39,058
I started out probably being so hungry to
grow an audience on social, then you get

1133
00:56:39,058 --> 00:56:41,798
the audience and you're like, I don't
really want to do this anymore.

1134
00:56:41,798 --> 00:56:45,218
And it's not because of the people or
anything like that, but the energy that

1135
00:56:45,218 --> 00:56:45,809
the app...

1136
00:56:45,809 --> 00:56:50,709
takes from you, energy of being on social,
posting so much on social, spending a lot

1137
00:56:50,709 --> 00:56:55,449
of time there, then consuming a lot of
content there is not healthy.

1138
00:56:55,449 --> 00:56:59,749
And one of the things I'm finding myself
writing a lot about my book that's coming

1139
00:56:59,749 --> 00:57:05,359
out in January 2025 is that I'm just
writing a lot about this balance of like,

1140
00:57:05,359 --> 00:57:09,649
sure, you might be able to become a TikTok
star overnight or whatever, which I don't

1141
00:57:09,649 --> 00:57:10,829
really believe that that's true.

1142
00:57:10,829 --> 00:57:12,719
But like, maybe, yeah, sure.

1143
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:14,130
And you can get some stuff.

1144
00:57:14,130 --> 00:57:15,730
get some traction from there.

1145
00:57:15,730 --> 00:57:18,700
But you know, I do think that this
conversation has to be balanced.

1146
00:57:18,700 --> 00:57:22,290
Not only on the marketing side, do I think
it's a better idea to run businesses more

1147
00:57:22,290 --> 00:57:23,850
the way that you and I do.

1148
00:57:23,850 --> 00:57:28,290
But I also think even if you could blow up
on social media, I don't think it's

1149
00:57:28,290 --> 00:57:29,060
healthy for you.

1150
00:57:29,060 --> 00:57:34,034
So like, finding this healthy balance has
been a bit more surprising, like.

1151
00:57:34,034 --> 00:57:37,654
I feel like when I see things on TV where
they're talking about the effects of

1152
00:57:37,654 --> 00:57:40,694
social media, I feel like they're talking
about me.

1153
00:57:40,694 --> 00:57:46,244
Like I see it and I never would have
expected to relate so much to that.

1154
00:57:46,244 --> 00:57:51,514
And I think like my success on that
platform surprised me, especially for what

1155
00:57:51,514 --> 00:57:53,194
I do and what I talk about.

1156
00:57:53,194 --> 00:57:56,124
I never thought so many people would wanna
hear about legal stuff.

1157
00:57:56,124 --> 00:57:59,986
And so that surprised me, but also
surprised me how difficult.

1158
00:57:59,986 --> 00:58:03,746
that has been how difficult it's been for
me to like wrestle with then how do I

1159
00:58:03,746 --> 00:58:04,566
relate to this app?

1160
00:58:04,566 --> 00:58:05,326
How do I show up?

1161
00:58:05,326 --> 00:58:08,746
Do I want to, and how do you keep going
without it?

1162
00:58:09,954 --> 00:58:12,134
this is all juicy stuff.

1163
00:58:12,134 --> 00:58:12,724
I love it.

1164
00:58:12,724 --> 00:58:17,604
And I love just think that the theme of
this podcast is like, you don't know what

1165
00:58:17,604 --> 00:58:22,144
you don't know, but you need to uncover
your unknown unknowns to cover your ass.

1166
00:58:22,144 --> 00:58:25,423
Literally like straight up CYA.

1167
00:58:25,423 --> 00:58:31,524
Sam has got lots of products and services
available to help you cover your ass like

1168
00:58:31,524 --> 00:58:35,824
the ultimate bundle, which has been
referenced multiple times and being

1169
00:58:35,824 --> 00:58:36,772
intentional.

1170
00:58:36,772 --> 00:58:42,392
Approaching things like educating yourself
on AI usage and the implications thereof

1171
00:58:42,392 --> 00:58:49,692
And approaching things with a growth
mindset as well so Thank you so much.

1172
00:58:49,692 --> 00:58:54,652
You have shared so much an unbelievable
amount of free information to release

1173
00:58:54,652 --> 00:58:57,112
Thank you so much Sam.

1174
00:58:57,112 --> 00:59:01,852
I appreciate your time and again your
advice where can listeners find you on?

1175
00:59:02,770 --> 00:59:06,380
Yeah, so you can come visit me on my
website, samvandrewheeland .com.

1176
00:59:06,380 --> 00:59:10,150
That's where you can shop all of my
downloadable, fill in the blank, legal

1177
00:59:10,150 --> 00:59:10,620
templates.

1178
00:59:10,620 --> 00:59:13,250
You can get any contract or website policy
you need there.

1179
00:59:13,250 --> 00:59:15,890
You can join or read more about the
Ultimate Bundle.

1180
00:59:15,890 --> 00:59:20,270
It gives you a pack of legal templates,
trainings, and access to support from me.

1181
00:59:20,270 --> 00:59:23,470
If you love listening to podcasts,
obviously you can come over and listen to

1182
00:59:23,470 --> 00:59:26,730
On Your Terms wherever you listen to
podcasts.

1183
00:59:27,230 --> 00:59:29,906
And I'll also make sure that Amanda has a
link for...

1184
00:59:29,906 --> 00:59:33,256
the pre like VIP sign up list for my book
coming out.

1185
00:59:33,256 --> 00:59:38,306
My book is called When I Start My
Business, I'll Be Happy, a No BS Guide to

1186
00:59:38,306 --> 00:59:40,266
Successful Online Entrepreneurship.

1187
00:59:40,266 --> 00:59:43,546
So we will provide you with a link down
below where you can sign up just to hear

1188
00:59:43,546 --> 00:59:46,548
about it for when it goes on presale in a
couple of months.

1189
00:59:46,820 --> 00:59:47,630
There it is.

1190
00:59:47,630 --> 00:59:48,580
Congrats again on the book.

1191
00:59:48,580 --> 00:59:50,080
I can't wait to get my hands on that one.

1192
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,760
I will definitely be on that pre -order
list.

1193
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:54,640
All right, y 'all time is precious.

1194
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:56,370
Thank you so much for sharing yours with
us.

1195
00:59:56,370 --> 01:00:00,520
We help creators and thought leaders like
you at levelupcreatorschool .com where our

1196
01:00:00,520 --> 01:00:04,460
team becomes your full stack team of
advisors and also includes no fluff

1197
01:00:04,460 --> 01:00:09,200
creator courses, a vibrant creator
community and more all on a subscription.

1198
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:12,780
See the show notes for more information
and a suite of high value free resources.

1199
01:00:12,780 --> 01:00:16,242
We will see you next time on the level up
creators podcast.