you're listening to the Level Up Creators podcast, Amanda Northcutt here, founder
and CEO.
We help creators and digital thought leaders like you turn your knowledge and
experience into rock solid recurring revenue.
And we are super glad you're here.
Welcome.
Today, my guest is Sam VanderWielen, an attorney turned entrepreneur and legal
educator, is going to provide us with some expert guidance on simple steps we can all
take to legally protect and grow our businesses.
Through her own.
Through her own business, Sam offers legal templates, a wonderful podcast called On
Your Terms, and her signature program, The Ultimate Bundle.
Sam lives in Long Island, New York with her husband, Ryan, Bernadoodle Hudson,
lots of plants, and her ever -growing stack of favorite books.
Amen to the book thing.
And I love this about Sam.
If you've always associated attorneys with words like shark or snake or intense or
cutthroat,
You are truly in for a very like down to earth breath of fresh air from Sam.
Welcome Sam.
Hey Amanda, thank you so much for having me.
I am so pumped to have this conversation with you today.
I know we've had it on the calendar for a while and it's finally here.
You have so much good advice to share.
So I'm pretty stoked.
Yeah, thank you.
But before we get into sort of the legal meat and potatoes of our chat today, if
you will, I'd like to do two quick things.
First, I want to play a little variation on two truths and a lie with you.
You and I have quite a lot in common, but we don't know each other super well.
So I thought this would be a fun exercise.
So I'm going to tell you three things that we have in common.
Two are true and one obviously is a lie.
Your job is to be the lie detector.
So number one, we are both dog lovers.
Number two, we both have law degrees and number three, we have both had
neurosurgery, which is the law.
Okay, I think the lie is that we both have law degrees.
I had a feeling.
Yeah, I thought the neurosurgery thing might trip you up, it didn't.
Too smart, Sam.
We can get into the...
you knew I had neurosurgery.
So I was like, yeah, that's unique.
If we threw that one in there, we had to have it in common.
Yeah.
thanks.
I appreciate it.
Well, I hope you're doing okay now.
Yes, conversation for another day, yes, but -huh, totally.
Yeah, I was 17, so that's been kind of like eons ago.
Okay, but speaking of which, I would love for you to share kind of how you came to
be in this line of work, specifically with events starting around 2016 or so, if you
don't mind.
So 2016, I was still a practicing attorney.
I was at a big firm.
I was a corporate lawyer representing other businesses.
And I was just in a very like victim mode place, what I now would now call a victim
mode place, meaning that I thought everything had kind of happened to me.
Corporate life had happened to me.
My boss sucked.
This person sucked.
Everything sucked.
I didn't like the job.
You know, I was just constantly complaining at work.
hanging out with other people who were constantly complaining.
It was just like a very negative space.
But I think the biggest difference between then and now is that I very much did not
take ownership for my role in it and for, for what, you know, that the fact that it
was a choice.
So jump forward a few months to a fateful plane ride home from Amsterdam and scared
the life out of me to say the least.
And, we hit like one of those really, really severe turbulence patches and.
It was like the, I mean, I was terrified and I thought it was having a heart
attack, which is also another story for another day.
But I do recall after it calmed down, I had this intense moment of clarity that I
have never had again, what I would like to about some other things.
Thinking like, what am I doing?
You know, like what I have so much choice in this, like what, what am I doing?
It was just like this, I don't know, proverbial slap across the face from life
that I really needed.
And within like three days of that plane trip, I came home and registered a
business, but I did not register a legal business.
I was wanting, I was again, still in that victim.
He placed was like, I want away from the law.
Lawyers suck.
Legal stuff sucks.
Everything sucks.
And so I wanted to do something completely different.
And my, my real passion, my post nine to five passion in life is cooking.
And so I really wanted to do something I loved.
And so.
I thought I was going to be like a food blogger.
I thought I was going to be a health coach, like just teaching people how to
cook.
And I went out and started this wellness business of sorts related to cooking.
And it didn't go so great.
Like it was fine.
The greatest thing about it was that I got to practice.
It was like the best practice.
I built a website.
I started blogging.
I was on social media.
Like I was learning.
Like I remember Googling like what is an email list?
Like I literally thought somebody had a list somewhere.
I was so confused.
I didn't know what CRMs were.
I didn't know SEO.
I knew nothing about it really.
I didn't know what a landing page was.
All of these things were so far and so new to me.
I remember being very tired and it being a lot to learn, but I absolutely loved it.
I fell in love with online business, with marketing, digital marketing in
particular.
I was like, this is so cool.
I don't feel like the health coach thing is exactly speaking to me, but I'm not
really sure what I want to do.
Then I
I feel like the universe kind of served it up for me because I was trying my hardest
to get clients as a, as a health coach.
And all I kept getting were inquiries from people being like, what's an LLC?
Like, I know you don't do this anymore, but could you tell me like, what do I need
to get started to start the kind of business that you're running?
And I'm like, why are people asking me this?
You know, that's when it really clicked for me that if they had come to me a year
earlier, when I was still in the firm being charged out at 550, $650 an hour,
There's not only would I not known what they were talking about because I just
went through this whole like educational experience myself of knowing what
tripwires were and funnels and all of these things.
But I also would have been charging them so much.
And that's not how the legal system works.
People, lawyers are not in a position to educate clients.
They just do work for clients, right?
That's what we do.
So that's when the idea was born for having a legal education business, a legal
templates business.
I shut down my health coaching business.
set up my legal templates business and really decided to focus on SEO.
And within about three hours after my website went live and I focused so heavily
on these blog posts that I planned so carefully, I had a sale to a random person
that I was not related to in any way.
Yeah.
So that's, that was 2016, 2017.
my gosh, that's incredible.
Okay, is it common for lawyers to be like incredible chefs and cooks?
Because my brother is like a wildly successful lawyer and like his second
career, if he needed one would be like a chef at a five star restaurant.
What's up with that?
I mean, probably that we need stress relief, I would think like you need
something.
I know, well, I didn't know it then, but something I feel like I've learned since
becoming an online entrepreneur is that like, I always associated creativity with
painters, like people who could paint pretty pictures and do those kinds of
things.
I was like, I'm not creative.
I can draw stick figures.
I'm really, really good at stick figures.
And so I was like, that's where my creativity ends.
And then I realized now, you know, seven, eight years later, I'm like, no, I'm super
creative.
I'm really creative with marketing.
I'm really creative with cooking.
I'm creative with problem solving.
Like there are all these other ways.
So maybe it's an outlet for us to have our creativity because I don't feel like being
a lawyer itself lends itself to a whole lot of creativity.
You know, we're teaching, we're, we have to follow the book.
Like literally there's no room for like, we don't just make it up.
It's like, it's there.
That's, that's the rule.
Yeah.
man, yeah, that's fascinating.
Yeah, I used to not think that I was a creative person at all as well because I
am a drummer, but that's just a hobby.
I'm not like in a band or anything like that.
I've done that since I was very young, but like I have no creative outlet outside of
that at all whatsoever.
And I realized only in more recent years, maybe the last five to eight years that my
creativity manifests in business through creative problem solving and being able to
take a massive data set.
organize it all in my brain and then go in with like surgical precision and here's
exactly how to fix your business and what needs to happen in this order.
So, it's so nice to have someone who identifies on that level.
I don't think I know anyone who would like describe their creative outlet in that
way.
So I love that about you.
That's so cool.
Good self -awareness as well.
I tried.
Now the balance is trying to figure out.
I feel like I went through the whole phase where like the business was my creative
outlet.
And then I was like, wait, I need other creative outlets that don't have anything
to do with business.
So I've like, I've become more balanced.
I don't know.
I feel like I was sharing with Amanda before we started that I've lost both my
parents in like the past year.
And that that grief, I mean, took me out of the knees and did kind of force me, I
think in a good way to learn other outlets of creativity.
So I feel like now I'm finding like
cool balance where my business still brings me so much joy.
But then I've like discovered all these other things.
And I think that those other things like the non -business things have actually
helped the business so much.
So it's really, really interesting.
yes, it's cool how, I mean, our brains, that's like all the research that's come
out in more recent years about like reading across different disciplines
because our brains will like make these neural connections on our behalf.
They'll just go in and do it and that's what like really feeds creativity and
problem solving and things like that.
So yeah, you're absolutely right that these things are not happening in
isolation in our brains.
Like our brain is making the connection.
It's like everything we're learning makes everything else better.
So.
That's cool.
And that's such a good sort of like takeaway or nugget for the creators and
thought leaders who are listening that it's so important to have things, creative
outlets outside of your now business.
Like your posting on social media probably started as like a primary creative outlet.
Is that fair to say you think?
And then now it's turned into a, go ahead.
Yeah.
like posting on social, I started posting about what I was cooking.
And I would talk about like creating a recipe starts with a strong foundation,
which is very similar to when you have a strong foundation for your business, which
is legal.
Like I am the queen at like turning things into analogies and metaphors.
So it's it's helpful.
That's the way that I learn and it's the way I tell stories.
So, you know, we were also talking about earlier, I think it's really important to
tap into like whatever your
secret sauce is your strength.
And if that's how you can get points across better and that being creative,
like opens up those stories, those ideas.
I also am writing a book right now and I'm writing a lot about how, you know, my mom
used to say, you have to be interesting and interested.
And she thought it was really important to be both, you know, and I, I think like a
lot of times in the online space, we talk about being unique and standing out.
And I write in the book a lot about how that actually requires you to be unique.
Like, so we have to get out there.
You got to like do stuff.
You have to try things and I don't know, put yourself maybe in new situations, have
hobbies, meet new people, try new things in your business.
I only consume content that have nothing to do with what we do in the business.
Like I never watch anything to do with what we do.
So it, that really stimulates a lot of ideas for me.
I love that.
That's right.
You have to be interested in things in order to be interesting.
I'm hearing Esther Perel in my ear.
I don't know if you like Esther Perel or not, but like she talks about that in a
relational standpoint, like long -term relationships last when each of you has
your own thing that you're doing and you're bringing new information, new
experiences to the relationship.
So you actually have something to talk about.
I've been with my husband for 20 years and so we have found that to be very true.
But anyways, okay.
We got to talk about legal stuff because we're going to bring in personal elements
and all the...
all of our favorite people, the Brene Browns of the world, I'm sure throughout
the podcast.
But let's get in to, like I said earlier, the meat and potatoes.
So as you are very thoughtful in pointing out, people have a lot of perceptions
about lawyers.
And I think we all know that they are quite freaking expensive.
So let's get into that a little bit.
So lots of potential legal headaches are avoidable if business owners simply set up
their legal paperwork correctly from the get -go, like you just said, foundations,
right?
But like I just said, legal fees can get out of hand really, really quickly, which
I know is like one of the reasons you started your business and are as
successful as you are in the first place.
But would you walk us through non -negotiables in terms of what kind of
paperwork and legal stuff is absolutely necessary?
It must be in place so that business owners are generally protected.
And then I'm totally going to like lob you a softball here straight out of the gate.
and ask how business owners can protect themselves without spending 10 grand on
legal fees just to get their business up and going.
There's the softball.
So I mean, I, the reason I started this business is because I will tell you
exactly which documents or which steps I think you're gonna, you absolutely need to
take to have a strong foundation in a second.
But what I realized is really missing from the space and what is missing from when
you traditionally go to a lawyer, like in your town or whatever, is that there's
also this like day -to -day element.
Like there's just stuff that comes up as an entrepreneur.
And,
It's not always lawsuits and trademark infringements like flinging back and
forth.
In fact, it's not usually that.
What happens day to day is more of the client didn't pay you on time and they're
not responding to the invoice or they're trying to take a six month contract to
stretch it out over nine months.
They're not respecting your boundaries.
They're asking for extra things that aren't supposed to be included.
It's what we call boundary pushers in my Ultimate Bundle program.
So like,
This is the stuff that I see day to day that's happening.
So while I will tell you like, these are the documents or the steps that you need
to get in place in order to have the strong foundation.
I also think it's helpful for you to know how to use them, how to talk about this
stuff, what things to like issue spot, how to best prevent and how to have
conversations with your clients.
Like I think a lot of clarity helps here and being able to have clear and honest
conversations with your clients is...
I think more than half the battle to avoiding a lot of these things.
But in terms of getting things set up so that you have something on paper to
actually protect you, I mean, the very first thing that you have to do is
properly form your business or register your business in your state where you live
and work.
Because if you don't do that, then first of all, you don't technically have a
business and two, we're not personally protected.
The point of protecting, of registering your business is actually to protect
yourself as a person.
So really the point of registering your business is to separate you.
So we have like a person over here and we have a business over here, but there's
sort of this wall in between the two of you so that you're not liable for what
happens in your business.
So that's the point of registration.
That's why it's the first thing we do.
You do this before you ever work with anyone.
That protection is not retroactive.
So it's only in place from the day you form moving forward.
So that's why it's important to do it as early as you can.
But that is the first thing I recommend.
From there, I recommend that you get a lawyer drafted contract, whether you want
to go to an attorney near you, you want to purchase a template from somebody like me,
but you need something that's from a lawyer that's related to your space and
what you do that would cover whatever offers you have.
So I want you to make a list of whatever offers if you have some sort of one -to
-one coaching thing, you're selling a course, maybe a digital product, a
membership.
you make a list of all of those offers and you need to have a contract for each one
of those.
Some of those will use the same contracts.
You'll be able to double dip like a membership in a course, for example, can
use the same contract.
You'll change the wording, but you can like duplicate the main contract.
But a one -to -one coaching contract, for example, is very different than what you
would use for a online course.
So you just need a contract for each one of those.
how you're going to send those to people will vary based on how you're presenting
these offers.
So like if you have one -to -one coaching, these are the contracts you'll be sending
people for them to e -sign or they can paper sign if you really want them to, but
I recommend e -signing for ease of use, but you'll do that.
Whereas when we're talking about things like digital products and courses and
memberships, these are things you'll integrate at checkout.
So these would be contracts you have people agree to.
So that is the second step is getting your contract.
And third,
I would say business insurance.
That is the one that you can wait to pull the trigger on like right before you're
about to start selling or working with people.
You don't have to have it way in advance like I would recommend an LLC, but you do
have to have it in place before or you want to have it in place before you start
working with people because that is also not retroactive.
Excellent advice.
I love that one, two, three punch.
and I love, yeah, the mentions of your ultimate bundle.
I mean, that is the perfect startup kit for anyone that is listening to this
podcast.
So awesome.
okay.
Then we've talked about those three steps.
Absolutely necessary.
Don't skimp.
Don't miss on that.
what about what's considered like best practice and would be smart to do, but is
not, you know, the end all be all like what are the extras, the next layer of
protection?
Yeah, so I think the next layer of protection is actually learning your scope
of practice, especially if you're in the coaching consulting space.
Scope of practice is what tells you what you're legally allowed to do, teach, sell,
offer, talk about, and it's based on how your state defines your profession,
essentially, or what I call the umbrella professions around you.
So we'll take the health coach example, like if you're in the health coaching
space,
you need to know what doctors and therapists and physical therapists and
personal trainers are allowed to do legally in your state because you're not
allowed to legally do any of those things.
So I think whatever space people are in, the money space, self -care space, you
need to know what it is that you're legally allowed to do.
I think that a lot of people mistake the fact that if you have a contract, for
example, I hear this all the time from people who say like,
I'm a money coach, I talk about investments, but don't worry, I have them
sign something that says that they understand I'm not their financial
advisor.
And it's like, right, but you can't do financial advising.
So you can't just have somebody say, like, they sign something saying, I know you're
not my financial advisor, and then give them financial advice that would only a
financial advisor could do.
So I think learning what those boundaries are, and then.
And then really taking a nice hard look holistically at your business from your
copy to your offers to your social media presence, making sure you're within those
bounds.
And I think what I get really excited about in a very dorky way is that people
can have really, really successful businesses, as you know, staying well
within those bounds.
Like you, I think there's a misperception and I think there's a bit of a scarcity
mindset that comes up that like you have to offer all these things.
You have to talk about all these things in order for your business to do well.
And people are also triggered by the fact that they'll see other people in the
online space doing these things illegally.
And there's like, well, if I don't do it, then I'm going to lose out to this person.
It is not true, right?
There are lots and lots of people doing this, quote unquote, the right way who are
doing very, very well.
I hope to be an example of that.
I don't do a lot of things that my peers do because I know it's outside of the
bounds and it's outside the bounds of what I'm comfortable with.
So like, that's fine.
That's how I sleep at night.
And that's really all that matters.
Yeah, I love that.
And I love, yeah, specifically giving financial and health related advice and
legal advice.
Holy moly.
You can get in such a pile of trouble.
okay.
Well, awesome.
That's great advice, Sam, of course.
let's talk about email marketing a little bit.
Obviously email marketing is a big thing in my business, your business, and
probably everybody who's listening.
And if it's not, it should be.
So listen up, regarding email rules and regulations around like who you can send
emails to.
I'll just talk about.
maybe the delineation between the United States versus what's across the pond and
GDPR.
Would you mind breaking down just some of those high level rules for us into
layman's terms and help all of us stay out of trouble and be on the up and up on the
email marketing front?
absolutely.
Absolutely.
I love email marketing.
So I'm happy to talk about this.
So, I mean, essentially there are two main laws you need to be familiar with if
you're in the email marketing space.
So there's the CAN Spam Act of 2003 here in the United States.
And then we have the GDPR, as Amanda mentioned, in the EU comes out of the
European Union called the General Data Protection Regulation.
So this was passed a couple of years ago.
And although it was passed in the EU, it applies to all of us.
because if anyone from the EU can access your website, which anyone can, unless you
have some like weird blocker on your site that doesn't let people from the EU see
your site or something like that, but if anyone can access your site, then you are
subject to it.
We also have actually, we have some state laws here in the US and we have some other
federal privacy laws that people have said like dip into the email space, the online
space in various ways, like California, for example, has Cal OPA.
Which again is very similar to the GDPR out of the EU which applies to all of us
as long as people from California can visit our website So even if you're not a
California resident, you're subject to Cal APA, for example, so Those are really the
main laws.
I would say they are they have one big difference, which I'll break down for you
So in America, I would say it's much more relaxed.
Even though there are laws around this It's it's more relaxed than the GDPR.
GPR is more recent.
It's more updated
much more privacy focused.
I mean, the EU in the last several years has come out with a number of laws against
a number of different companies or that are aimed at different companies to
regulate privacy and people's access to their own data.
So, you know, that is a newer and more strict law.
But here in America and across the board, I would just say, you don't want to ever
add people to your email list unless they've chosen to be there, right?
So,
We want to have opt -in forms, landing pages where people are signing up to our
list.
We want to make sure if you're hosting an in -person event, for example, people will
have a sign -in sheet.
You can have something on there that says, would you like to be added to my email
list?
And they can check something off.
You generally want to take an attitude of having people take an action, like a
saying yes, essentially, and have them say yes.
Don't assume and then make them say no.
So we want to make people say yes, we want to have proof that they've said yes.
So whether that's signed up through a form in real life or online, you know, we want
this proof.
So in America, that's kind of as simple as it is.
CanSpan also requires that we have an unsubscribed link at the bottom of our
emails that actually works.
So if people click on it, they should be actually unsubscribed.
You as a business owner, even if you use ConvertKit like I do, or you use Active
Campaign or...
Kajabi or whatever else is out there.
You still have the responsibility to make sure the software is working correctly.
So if people are clicking on it and they're not getting taken out of your
emails, that's on you.
You're not going to be able to be like, but Kajabi, like it's their fault, right?
You have to take responsibility and make sure.
So that's something to keep your eye on.
You also have to have your business address at the bottom of all of your
emails.
It does not have to be the same address as the address you use to register your
business.
I get that asked that a lot.
It doesn't have to be your home address.
It can be a PO box.
It has to be somewhere where you can receive business mail.
So wherever that is for you.
Mine is a PO box.
So that's why I set it up that way.
So you can have that.
And then I would say last but not least, in America, it's just important to keep in
mind that your emails have to be related, generally speaking, to what people thought
they were signing up.
So, I mean, this is, people get a little too hung up on this in the sense that, for
example, I have a weekly email called Sam Sidebar where I do like a weekly legal Q
&A and I share helpful links.
I share online business legal news, the updates that everybody needs to know.
But I write stories every week that are about various things.
My story this week was about Broadway.
It was like, it doesn't, they're not talking about that.
What they're talking about is like,
Now all of a sudden I join an MLM and I'm like, I'm not doing legal anymore.
And now I'm like selling them products.
That's what they're talking about.
So, and even then, as long as I had the unsubscribe link and it worked, it's
really not that big of a deal.
So that's kind of the gist of email marketing here in the States.
The GDPR law that we mentioned earlier just added in a little bit of a twist
where if people from the EU sign up for your email list, they not only have to
take that
Action that what they call an affirmative action of saying yes I want to be added to
your email list like just because I sign up for a freebie For example doesn't mean
they can be added to your list, which is would be okay here in America They also
have to have control over whether they continue to receive marketing email like
sales emails And so if you use things like convert kit, they make that super super
easy for you because you actually can activate Like a feature on the forums that
only shows that option to people who are located in EU.
I
so that not all of your subscribers are seeing it since it's not required here in
the US.
That was a pretty sweet feature.
It's a good idea.
OK, awesome.
And I would definitely encourage people not to put their home address at the
bottom of those emails.
Get a PO box, folks.
You're running a business.
You're limiting your liability as it is, setting things up properly.
Don't let people know where you live.
We don't need to do that.
Anything else before we move on from email marketing, like any other?
Is there a thing?
included in GDPR where if someone unsubscribes, you also have to delete
their contact information within some amount of time.
Did I make that up?
I believe that GDPR has a provision where people have to, you have to give people
the option to request the deletion.
I am not completely up to date on knowing exactly how we have to perform this
because I know for us, it's like when we delete them, they obviously don't continue
to get our emails, but I have in my privacy policy, I guess this would be a
plug for having your three website policies, which are the privacy policy
website disclaimer in terms and conditions.
But in your privacy policy, I like in my privacy policy template, which I obviously
use my own, I have a provision in there that says like we use third party, like
apps and tools and we can't control what they do with the data.
So like I can delete it on my end, but I can't guarantee you that convert kits
still.
I don't know who knows what they do with their data.
So that can't be on me.
I believe though they can make like a formal request, which then we have to make
to convert kit.
So that's typically the way I recommend people dealing with it.
Yep, that's a great point.
I forgot to talk about that earlier, but yes, definitely want to have privacy
policy, website terms of use, and the disclaimer.
So, okay.
Let's talk about content stealing.
I'm trying to hit all the major legal topics that are relevant in the creator
economy right now.
The subject is, it's big.
We have a client who has almost a million followers right now, and somebody just
completely ripped off their course, like one.
no.
% ripped it off.
It's like clear as day that that's exactly what happened.
So, two part question, how in the world do you protect your content from being stolen
in the first place?
And that could even be like, not even a behind the paywall digital product or
something like that, like a course, but just people ripping off your reels or
carousels or posts or whatever the case may be.
So how do you protect yourself initially, if you can?
And then can anything be done other than...
suing someone and entering into like a crazy expensive lawsuit or is it like just
the wild west of the internet right now?
no, there's so much you can do.
There's so much you can do on the front end and then there's so much you can do in
response even without contacting people.
But yeah, they, okay, so first things first, when we're talking about things
like social media, the platforms have their own way of dealing with this.
So they'll have like things you can file to get things taken down and all of that.
But when we're talking about protecting content, I'm like, well,
Your day -to -day content you post on social media, I think would be exhausting
to file like copyright for all of these kinds of things.
I don't even know how we would keep up with, with doing that.
That would just be an insane amount of, of work, at least on my end.
So I think that the way that I've thought about this, like, I always tell my
customers, like, I take my lawyer hat off and this is like more my marketing normal
person hat.
I, I personally take the approach of protecting your bread and butter.
So if it was your online course, for example,
a digital product, maybe video trainings that you do, I would send those off to the
US Copyright Office for registration and protection.
It's easy, like a million times easier than getting a trademark.
It's fast, a million times faster than getting a trademark, and it's a lot
cheaper.
So it's, and it's something you can do yourself.
I have a training inside the Ultimate Bundle of how to get a copyright.
I literally walk people through, like in a screen capture video of showing them how I
file my own.
It's so easy.
And I really believe people can do this.
But of course, like I have to, if I put my lawyer hat back on, I have to tell you,
you have to do this for every single thing and do this for every piece of content.
I just don't think that's practical or worth your time.
I do it for the things that would, it would cost me money and harm my business
if someone took it.
So for my online course, all my legal templates, the videos, those are all
registered with the US Copyright Office.
The reason I'm saying that is because then if something happens, this is like a slam
dunk.
It's like, it makes your life so much easier.
And if something happens and you didn't register it, it puts you in a more
difficult position.
I'm not saying you're completely out of luck, but you're going to have to work at
it.
Whereas you don't have to work at it at all if you've registered, because you
would be able to provide a copy of your copyright certificate.
You would be able to show this in the thing would be taken down.
Now you asked about like getting it taken down.
I mean, there's kind of two routes people can go about this one is like if you had a
copyright, for example, even if you didn't, you could hire an attorney to send
a cease and desist letter.
There's also a cease and desist letter template in my bundle, for example.
But I'm trying to cover all the bases, guys.
And so I try to help everybody out.
Yeah.
So you can send a cease and desist letter.
It doesn't have to come from an attorney.
But as I always say, it has teeth when it does.
you know, no offense to everybody else, but it's just the way it works when you
see Esquire after the name, you start to sweat.
So, you know, they, they, you can send this letter saying you have to take it
down.
The cool thing about when you have a copyright, when you've actually registered
it, is that when they send those, they'll often attach like a copy of the copyright
certificate.
And in that case, it's just kind of like, it's a slam dunk.
Like this is over.
You just have to take it down.
And they would be subject to significant penalties if they didn't.
So you really are.
positioning yourself in a much stronger way.
So you could do that, or you can do, depending on where they've posted this,
where they've taken it, you know, all that kind of stuff, you can do what's called a
DMCA takedown notice.
So that's another example where you can contact both the host of the website that
it's posted on or the platform or Google, and you can provide this information,
provide your copyright certificate and say, this is stolen, this needs to be
taken down.
We're doing that right now with somebody who's doing that with...
my podcast and also we just found a bunch of my products for sale on someone else's
website and they're labeling them as being mine and just saying they're selling them
at a discount.
Yeah, that was pretty fun.
Yeah, so they're literally saying like Sam VanRoekel templates for sale for this
amount and so this is how we're going about it.
Like you don't even have that's why I was saying earlier like you don't have to
contact them because there's no point.
We just contact the host which you can easily tell on websites like who is which
tell you what you know who's the host of somebody's website.
You contact the host, you file a DMCA takedown notice, and it's kind of as
simple as that.
I've had pretty good luck on places like Instagram.
I get ripped off a lot and we're able to just file the complaint form with them.
The key with Instagram, you know, we could do a whole episode about this.
So I'll just give you my best tip is that the mistake people make is that they think
like when you click the little three dots in the upper right corner of a post and
hit like report, they think that's the way to do it.
No, no.
You have to go on your desktop or on your laptop and you have to go to Instagram's
website.
They actually have a legitimate form that you fill out and you submit like a
complaint and depends what it is.
If it's a copyright complaint, if it's a trademark infringement.
So it depends what it is or if someone's imitating your likeness, right?
If they're stealing all your photos and pretending to be you.
So it depends on the situation, but they have a form, a page for every single one
of those.
Those are legit.
And when you fill those out and you do it right and you put all the information in,
That's when your stuff actually gets handled.
Cause everybody tells me like, I tried reporting it on Instagram.
Like, how'd you do it?
If it's in the app, it won't, it won't work.
I think they just get inundated with that.
So helpful, thank you.
And this particular client I was referencing of ours, he is actually in the
UK, I assume they have a very similar process.
And do you offer, like do you Sam, offer to send cease indices letters as like an
upsell or is that not at all part of your service?
because it so if we go back to what we were talking about earlier, at least where
I am licensed in two states, it is illegal for attorneys to provide services and try
to do like what I'm doing at the same time on the same website.
So I make I made a decision very early on, like I'm not offering any services.
I'm just selling these templates, providing education.
So I give people the template to be able to send themselves if they want to.
Otherwise, I give everybody in the bundle, for example.
the questions, the conversation to go have with their attorney so that they go in
armed with all the information, which then saves them a lot of money and a lot,
because you have to remember when dealing with attorneys, it's all about time.
So the most, if I can save you any time, saving you a lot of money.
And so I give them like all the questions to go in and tell them what paperwork to
bring, exactly what to tell them.
Like, and they basically just come in with it all prepared already, and then they
just need the lawyer to send it for them.
Yeah, much easier.
Yeah.
Okay.
GTFP with GDPR and all of the acronyms and all the things.
I'm like when GDPR first came out, I was like, I couldn't, I couldn't say it right
for a while.
I think it took us all the while to catch on there.
that was very helpful.
That was extremely helpful.
Okay.
And this is kind of an adjacent topic.
You and I were talking about this before I hit record.
Let's talk about generative content produced by large language models, AKA
chat, GPT, Gemini, Copilot, all that stuff.
What's your take on both the ethical and legal side of AI produced content and what
do creators using AI?
to write content need to be aware of from a legal standpoint.
Yeah, I mean, I always think marketing brain first and maybe I'm old school or
something.
And I just am like, well, I just want to create my own content.
I love it and I enjoy it.
I also, I know at this point the importance of being unique and leaning
into your unique differentiators, having a voice and like, you know, I know that.
people on my email list, if I started using AI generated content, for example,
my email list, they would sniff out and heartbeat.
I have such a specific writing styles.
I tell little anecdotes, I'm sarcastic, I'm self -deprecating.
It's just like there's no way this would capture it, right?
So I think it has its place.
That's like my personal opinion, but I think it has its place for different
things.
But I'm mostly concerned about all of you using it in your business.
And so I'm concerned about it from a marketing standpoint.
I'm also concerned about it from a legal standpoint.
As I was sharing with Amanda, one of my customers asked me, what's the legality of
creating content on places like chat, GBT, do you own it?
And I was like, what a good idea.
So I went and actually read the terms, OpenAI's terms, and they do offer you the
intellectual property in what you create, what they call the output content.
So when you put in a little...
question or prompt or whatever, and whatever it spits out, they're saying that
you can own that.
However, they will not only not guarantee, but they basically offer you up the fact
that they offer that content to other people who have similar prompts or similar
questions in the app.
So it's like, how can you own content that other people are already having access to?
I mean, we just got done having this conversation about content being ripped
off.
And it's like, how would you have a leg to stand on if you're using
a platform to generate content that wasn't really yours in the first place.
And then they're saying in the terms that they're offering it to other people.
The whole point of copyrighting content is that you are basically certifying for lack
of a better term, the content you're creating is original.
So when you go to submit things to the US Copyright Office, for example, you are
saying this is original and it is my work and is my work exclusively.
I mean, they even have a thing on there that says, like, do you have a co -author?
Did you have anybody else?
Like, is there anyone else who contributed to this work?
Right.
It's like, I just don't know how this is all going to square with owning copyright
and something.
So I personally wouldn't use it for anything that I then wanted to turn around
and own.
Right.
Both for those marketing and legal reasons.
So I think that's concerning.
I think my other concern over some of the apps too is that I don't know.
always where the copy is being pulled from.
And so then I would be concerned that I could be potentially infringing on someone
else's work if they're pulling some verbiage from someone's blog post or
something like that, you know, off Google.
So that is a bit concerning to me as well.
Hmm.
So do you recommend AI usage for anything like brainstorming partner or script help
or anything?
Or you just like, no.
No, I've liked it for title generation.
So I have my own podcast as well.
And so when I go to do podcast titling, I'm hovering around something I want to
call it and I'll put it into something that I use.
And I'm like, that's actually specific to title generation, but they're using AI for
title.
And I'm like, let me see what they come up with.
And then you can manipulate the individual titles to be like, I want this to be
funnier or more mysterious or more fear driven or whatever.
I like playing with it.
I find it very fascinating.
I always though, I mean, maybe it's just like, I don't know, I'm a Scorpio.
So I'm like, I'm not just going to take your suggestion.
Whatever suggestion they give me, I'm like, I have to put my spin on this.
I take a lot of pride in what I do and I would encourage other people to take a
similar approach that you're putting your name behind this stuff.
So sure, I think it's great for idea generation, outline, prompts, titles,
whatever you want to do.
But I...
I just want you to stand behind, like fully, fully stand behind what you're, I
don't know, putting out into the world.
Like there's so much, there's so much content, so much noise, there's so much
good content, there's so much bad content.
Do you want to make this choice?
Like, is this what you want to put out there?
I guess that's what comes up for me.
My husband's a professor and people, like kids have now started submitting papers to
him that are clearly AI generated.
And
All he has to do is ask them one question about it and then boom, the whole thing
falls apart.
They have no idea what the thing says.
And I'm like thinking about this in the content space that, you know, I just, I
personally would not be able to live with myself knowing that I'm putting something
out there that I either don't understand or I can't stand behind.
It's a little concerning to me too, that like, if you need to have this generated
for you, then perhaps you're talking about something that's a little out of turn.
I,
I don't know.
I mean, there's a big difference between generating ideas and titles and outlines
versus like, this is gonna generate all my blog posts, this is gonna generate all my
content or my weekly emails.
Like to me, that's a big difference and I can see a reason for it.
I just don't want it to be like the backbone of someone's business.
Yeah.
hey, just be aware that this is basically un -copyrightable potentially in that
information that you've inputted into chat, GBT or whatever your preferred bot
is.
The results that you're getting are available to others.
It is not now like uniquely yours.
So that's a very important sort of like nuance to understand.
So I think what I'm hearing is make an informed decision, like know what the...
implications and potential sort of trickle -down consequences are of using AI
-generated content.
Yeah, is that a fair summary?
It is the thing I'm thinking, remembering too, as you're saying this is that you're
also liable for whatever you're putting out there.
And I think this is this tip can apply to lots and lots of different things that
we're putting, you know, that we're talking about today.
But I think sometimes people think that when they're using a tool or a software,
whether it's ConvertKit or a chat, GBT or any other tool or software, like if that
or like PayPal and they're handling your payments now, all of a sudden you're not
responsible for it.
That couldn't be further from the truth.
So as a business owner,
you're responsible for whatever happens.
So like if you put out bad content or content that has something dangerous in it
or that ripped off someone else's content and you didn't know because you got it
from G chat GPT or wherever that's on you.
So like I think that would be my other thing is like sort almost like source
checking.
I would just be concerned.
The other thing that this the other place that this comes up in my own business that
my friend the other day told me this was really smart and I was like, I didn't, I
didn't think twice about doing this, but.
When we hire people to write something for the business, if they're a copywriter,
they're going to help us with blog posts or give us any kind of content, we run it
not only through a plagiarism checker, but I run it through an AI checker now as
well, because I am not paying people to write original content that they are then
pumping out through AI.
If you want to hire somebody to pump out something through AI, that's fine, but
that's probably a different price of it.
It's also just different expectations.
And so I'm paying for original content.
So that is also something we're checking on the backend as a...
business owner, I would also just encourage you to think about this when
people are turning things into you.
I love that.
Do you want to recommend the tools you're using to do that?
Or we could link those up in the show notes as well.
I was gonna say we can send you the link because I know Lindsay, my director of
operations, this is her job when things are coming in.
She's checking this before anything goes up.
And so yeah, we can happily share links to those resources.
I'll link those up.
That's such a gut, a good gut check for sure.
Thank you.
That was very helpful.
Okay, I'm going to switch gears here a little bit, but I'm trying to hit like
major legal spicy topics for like all the creators and thought leaders listening.
So I want to dive into the subject of equity as in business ownership shares for
creators.
Super hot topic right now.
And the data is showing, this is so crazy, affinity for creators.
is about to eclipse affinity for like iconic trillion dollar global brands,
which is a big deal with a capital B.
I'm talking like everybody has three to five creators that they really, really
like or influencers and the affinity that a follower feels for those three to five
people is greater than that, that that person might feel for Google, Apple,
Lululemon, Patagonia, Nike, Coca -Cola.
Like that's blowing my mind from a marketing standpoint.
Yeah.
that's so cool for creators, but here's the problem.
I see creators getting taken advantage of left, right, and sideways and not being
paid what they're worth for brand deals and sponsorships.
It's frustrating to me to no end, like truly I have a whole soapbox about it, but
companies who are buying these brand deals and sponsorship, they know how valuable
access to these creator audiences are.
But creators typically, through no fault of their own, like typically neither
possess the mindset or the business acumen to be able to accurately value and capture
the compensation they should be getting on those deals.
And I mean, I'm like on a personal mission here to change that narrative and get
creators paid and set them up for long -term success.
Not only like spotty revenue here and there, but you know, the whole business,
like that's the point of our business right now, just brand deals.
But this is a hot topic, so that's why I'm bringing it up.
Okay, so based on the way that things are right now, we really can't talk about
creator income without talking about brand deals and sponsorships.
So I'm of the mind that equity should be part of that conversation for creators who
are driving tremendous and consistent value to companies.
So can we talk about the logistics of an arrangement like that and potentially how
a creator could broach that topic with the companies that repeatedly sponsor them?
You're not.
You're not going to get equity in a company or shares in a company on the
first go.
But if you're an ambassador for a company, somebody's come back to you four, five,
six times to do a five, 10, 15, $25 ,000 brand deal.
I think there's a point at which you can talk about equity.
So how, what's your take on that?
Yeah, it's so interesting.
I mean, I don't I don't see why not to your point, right?
If they're this is the future.
It's here and it's also the future.
But I will first foremost, I would tell people that this is the kind of thing I
would only ever do with the guidance of an attorney, because a lot of times when I do
hear about people being taken advantage of with these brand deals, it's because they
didn't have anyone look over anything for them.
It's often when I'll hear.
from some of my customers that they see themselves in ads, for example, like
months and years down the line that are doing super, super well and they were paid
like 200 bucks or something ridiculous for, and they know what they're making off
of it.
So really understanding all of like what you're giving up, what you're giving, what
you're getting in return, what those opportunities are.
And then in order for you to pitch this opportunity, for example, which I think is
a great idea,
having a lawyer there that really understands the terms and what you get so
that you don't ultimately get screwed over.
So I would say that that's how I would approach it.
Okay, cool.
And then, I guess, is there a two minute opportunity here to help creators
understand how equity works at companies?
I mean, obviously, okay, yes, you need to have your own legal representation, but
how would you even approach your own lawyer to talk about this, to have an
intelligent conversation about equity?
Yeah, I would say, okay, so I would say if first of all, go into a lawyer who then
understands what you do would be really helpful because that's going to reduce
some of the friction in the conversation for understanding how you're contributing
to this company's growth.
So I think going to them and saying, going to them first of all with your stats, like
very specific stats in hand of saying, this is how many, I don't know, whatever
it is, views you're getting, or if you know how many sales you're making, you
would share about this, how many campaigns you're running for them.
per year, how much work's going into that, how much time and effort, maybe that you
have some other ideas.
I mean, I wouldn't ultimately share this with the company until they sign off on
it, but that you have other ideas of ways that you could expand this partnership.
But with the amount of time and attention that that's going to take, you're going to
need to see a different payment structure so that you also want to, I guess, go in
and tell the attorney that you want to have more of a long -term relationship.
Like this is something you're looking to do.
partner with and when you partner with someone, you get equity typically.
So getting a share of that company, of that company's profits in exchange for a
bit more of a marriage of sorts, you know, and giving that time and attention to them
over the long term.
You know, I think pitching it to the company too is like they're running
through a lot of different influencers, but becoming the person who's kind of like
known for something, being able to lend that creative or consultant type.
lens to them from a social media perspective would be really cool.
Bringing in, I mean, it depends on maybe the person's audience or a size of
audience, but saying like, I have this whole group of people here, the
demographics about these people, this is how they're going to help contribute.
I always think it's cool when you talk to either the lawyer or the brand side about
the trends that you see, like really showing them that you're plugged in and
you see what's coming, that you're going to be able, that why you're actually a
part of what's going to be able to get them there.
and even helping them stand apart from their own competitors.
I think that would be really cool to say like, you guys are different than this
other company.
And that's part of what I'm going to be able to help you with in my audience is
more like they relate more to you guys than the other person.
So I think that those would be things that I would probably go in armed both with
talking with your own attorney and the company ultimately.
Yeah.
You got into sales pitch there.
That's awesome.
That's really good advice.
yeah, I'm thinking of another one of our clients and, I was having a conversation
with him a couple of weeks, lots of followers, very popular, very influential,
now doing some consulting gigs for like global brands.
I mean, like really, really hitting their stride.
And, he was asking me like, I want to make all my business to make $10 million a
year.
how in the hell could I possibly get there with what I have in front of me?
I was like, well, working on digital product side and optimizing revenue
through LTV maximization, blah, blah, blah, all these things.
And so that's a very, very significant piece of that.
We're working in recurring revenue, opportunities for like a small group, high
ticket coaching program, and that's all great.
But for these companies that you are doing consulting for, you have like a very
unique value proposition and POV.
And so instead of taking cash upfront, because we're going to take care of your
cash needs and then some with like the digital product offerings that we're
working for you over here.
But your exponential lever that you can pull is to say, I only do consulting for
equity, right?
And so you have to find either publicly traded companies who are, it's not too
hard to like set this kind of thing up and even on a vesting schedule, that means you
don't get your shares immediately, but you have to like do what you say you're going
to do over time and you get shares like dripped out over the period of four years
typically.
I was saying you stop taking cash upfront, go for equity only.
with a particular type of company, a very unique value proposition.
But then earlier stage companies who have open cap tables, like there's equities to
be distributed, like they have room in their business structure to offer deals
like this to strategic business partners.
And so each creator listening probably has a very specific niche and a very specific
and unique value proposition that aligns with a certain type of company's goals,
right?
And so if you can kind of hit yourself to their wagon,
And again, make that sales pitch that like equity, you having equity in their
business will align your incentives long term because you're in this for the long
haul, you're on a vesting schedule, you're going for the long tail, you're going for
profit and then potentially like a payday if the company goes public or is private
and sells.
That could be a really, really appealing offer to an earlier stage company who
doesn't have a marketing team yet.
Right.
If you own their freaking customer base,
you have so much leverage.
And so, I mean, this podcast is all about sort of like, not only protecting yourself
and being proactive in that regard, but like, what are your other legal options?
What else is available to you in the business world that companies know about
that you just don't know about yet, but like, you can go in and get a slice of
that pie.
So I wanna help you kind of like edge your way in there.
Yeah, that's really smart.
I like that advice.
I'm trying to help like as many of our clients as possible do this and like
connecting them with a legal team who does this kind of thing.
So I'm very interested in that conversation because it's a massive
shortcut.
Cause a product is great.
A product is awesome, but like nothing happens in business until something is
sold.
Right.
And so if you can connect with like a technical founder of a software tool or a
product or whatever that they're looking for your audience, you are like the
ultimate.
lever for them also.
And so again, going for incentive alignment, mutually beneficial
arrangements.
So be thinking about equity if you're not already.
Yeah, very cool.
right, so Sam, just a couple more real quick questions.
I know we are going over time.
Thank you for your time.
You have obviously built a quite successful multi -seven figure creator
business and recorded a few hundred episodes of your podcast, done tons of
writing on all things online business.
And you are clearly a student of your craft, which I really love.
But even with your background and law degree, what are your top three things?
that have surprised you the most about running your own business and what advice
do you have for our listeners based on those learnings.
Yeah, I think one thing that has surprised me is that how scrappy you have to be and
how much hard work there really is.
You know, I came in in 2016, 2017 when we're kind of at the height of the
Instagram era of like aspirational marketing, a lot of people showing off a
lifestyle that wasn't totally accurate and honest and.
you know, really making a lot of pie in the sky promises.
And so it was definitely sold as being very easy.
And it's hard.
And I think then I would say my second most surprising is that that difficulty
actually, I think, is a really fun thing.
It's a really positive thing because it keeps you on your toes.
So I'm very, very grateful.
I mean, coming from a legal background where we were working on flaws that are
hundreds of years old or decades old, at least.
and nothing ever changed, you know, pretty much you were working even off of like an
old British law system.
I think it's really cool to be like, you know, people complain all the time about
the algorithm or this platform or that platform.
I'm like, thank God it's so interesting.
Like it really keeps me on my toes and I have to think about stuff all the time.
So I think that has been surprising, but in a really good way.
I think the third thing that has been surprising,
has been how difficult it's been to be on my own, like owning the business on my
own, working by myself, even if you have a team, like I'm not in an office anymore.
So that took a lot of adjustment in terms of my day to day, like seeing the value
and getting myself out sometimes, even just going to a coffee shop.
I love the library, funny enough.
So I go to the library all the time and work, like just being around other humans,
but not talking to them necessarily.
That helps like.
kind of learning my style, like what is it that I really want to do?
How do I want to work?
What do I really need to thrive, to be creative, to brainstorm?
I've learned that I'm a very brainstormy person, so I am having to talk to the team
to say, hey, I just got to like talk this out.
I think that's just all been very surprising to, I think you learn a lot
about yourself, how you work, how you best function, how you best create as a
creator.
Awesome.
That's great.
Anything else?
I could go for days, but I think those are the main things.
I think the battle with social media, like being present on social media, that has
been an interesting journey for me that I probably haven't talked about a lot.
I started out probably being so hungry to grow an audience on social, then you get
the audience and you're like, I don't really want to do this anymore.
And it's not because of the people or anything like that, but the energy that
the app...
takes from you, energy of being on social, posting so much on social, spending a lot
of time there, then consuming a lot of content there is not healthy.
And one of the things I'm finding myself writing a lot about my book that's coming
out in January 2025 is that I'm just writing a lot about this balance of like,
sure, you might be able to become a TikTok star overnight or whatever, which I don't
really believe that that's true.
But like, maybe, yeah, sure.
And you can get some stuff.
get some traction from there.
But you know, I do think that this conversation has to be balanced.
Not only on the marketing side, do I think it's a better idea to run businesses more
the way that you and I do.
But I also think even if you could blow up on social media, I don't think it's
healthy for you.
So like, finding this healthy balance has been a bit more surprising, like.
I feel like when I see things on TV where they're talking about the effects of
social media, I feel like they're talking about me.
Like I see it and I never would have expected to relate so much to that.
And I think like my success on that platform surprised me, especially for what
I do and what I talk about.
I never thought so many people would wanna hear about legal stuff.
And so that surprised me, but also surprised me how difficult.
that has been how difficult it's been for me to like wrestle with then how do I
relate to this app?
How do I show up?
Do I want to, and how do you keep going without it?
this is all juicy stuff.
I love it.
And I love just think that the theme of this podcast is like, you don't know what
you don't know, but you need to uncover your unknown unknowns to cover your ass.
Literally like straight up CYA.
Sam has got lots of products and services available to help you cover your ass like
the ultimate bundle, which has been referenced multiple times and being
intentional.
Approaching things like educating yourself on AI usage and the implications thereof
And approaching things with a growth mindset as well so Thank you so much.
You have shared so much an unbelievable amount of free information to release
Thank you so much Sam.
I appreciate your time and again your advice where can listeners find you on?
Yeah, so you can come visit me on my website, samvandrewheeland .com.
That's where you can shop all of my downloadable, fill in the blank, legal
templates.
You can get any contract or website policy you need there.
You can join or read more about the Ultimate Bundle.
It gives you a pack of legal templates, trainings, and access to support from me.
If you love listening to podcasts, obviously you can come over and listen to
On Your Terms wherever you listen to podcasts.
And I'll also make sure that Amanda has a link for...
the pre like VIP sign up list for my book coming out.
My book is called When I Start My Business, I'll Be Happy, a No BS Guide to
Successful Online Entrepreneurship.
So we will provide you with a link down below where you can sign up just to hear
about it for when it goes on presale in a couple of months.
There it is.
Congrats again on the book.
I can't wait to get my hands on that one.
I will definitely be on that pre -order list.
All right, y 'all time is precious.
Thank you so much for sharing yours with us.
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See the show notes for more information and a suite of high value free resources.
We will see you next time on the level up creators podcast.