WEBVTT NOTE This file was generated by Descript 00:00:00.080 --> 00:00:01.759 Kurt: Hey, welcome listeners and viewers. 00:00:01.759 --> 00:00:02.960 My name is Kurt v Onan. 00:00:03.050 --> 00:00:07.850 I'm here with Toby Kres, and you are at another episode of Who's 00:00:07.850 --> 00:00:11.900 WordPress Agency Is this Anyway, and Toby, welcome to the call. 00:00:12.350 --> 00:00:12.950 Thank you, Kurt. 00:00:13.220 --> 00:00:14.150 Toby: We got a story for you. 00:00:14.450 --> 00:00:14.959 Kurt: I'm all up for 00:00:14.959 --> 00:00:15.470 Toby: stories. 00:00:15.709 --> 00:00:18.710 I went to a no code meetup in Minneapolis. 00:00:19.330 --> 00:00:21.994 Kurt: I, I, I was gonna ask you why I saw the notes and I 00:00:21.994 --> 00:00:22.864 was like, I should ask him why. 00:00:22.864 --> 00:00:24.004 I said, I'll just wait till the show. 00:00:24.165 --> 00:00:27.285 what possessed you to go to a no code meetup in Minneapolis? 00:00:27.285 --> 00:00:32.444 Toby: Well, turns out there's this thing called AI and a lot of 00:00:32.444 --> 00:00:37.124 people are talking about it and no code is like the extreme of ai. 00:00:37.154 --> 00:00:40.934 It's like people who have no business coding are coding. 00:00:40.934 --> 00:00:43.334 And so I was like, I don't really understand it, but 00:00:43.334 --> 00:00:44.114 I'm gonna go check it out. 00:00:44.114 --> 00:00:45.344 And I've dabbled in it, but like. 00:00:46.124 --> 00:00:48.344 It was really something, Kurt. 00:00:48.344 --> 00:00:52.814 'cause there were about 15 people there, and almost all 00:00:52.814 --> 00:00:54.974 of them have real businesses. 00:00:56.084 --> 00:00:58.514 Some of them had, one guy had like 10 employees. 00:00:58.605 --> 00:01:01.275 He has no idea how the code is written. 00:01:01.695 --> 00:01:03.615 Like he has 10 employees. 00:01:03.885 --> 00:01:05.775 None of them know what the code is. 00:01:06.884 --> 00:01:10.449 And I'm just like, and and he, he was upfront in the media, he's like. 00:01:11.039 --> 00:01:14.220 If something happens, I have no way to get this back. 00:01:14.699 --> 00:01:16.259 Like, there's no backups. 00:01:16.259 --> 00:01:18.239 Like, like he doesn't know what he's doing. 00:01:18.239 --> 00:01:20.609 He's got 10 employees and customers paying him. 00:01:21.329 --> 00:01:22.829 I was just like, this is 00:01:23.070 --> 00:01:23.400 Kurt: awesome. 00:01:26.940 --> 00:01:32.009 How many times have you seen this in your agency Walk of life though, where 00:01:32.220 --> 00:01:35.280 you're, you're doing the work, you're putting in the homework, you're, you 00:01:35.280 --> 00:01:37.049 know, you are pushing the wheelbarrow man. 00:01:37.049 --> 00:01:40.350 You are doing what it takes to grow your agency. 00:01:40.530 --> 00:01:43.829 A way that you think is, you know, equitable and 00:01:43.829 --> 00:01:45.359 ethical and all those things. 00:01:45.449 --> 00:01:50.729 And then you run into people that are growing businesses with customers and 00:01:50.729 --> 00:01:54.750 revenue, and you're, and they're like, well, my MRR is, and they're talking 00:01:54.750 --> 00:01:56.640 all this, you know, entrepreneur speak. 00:01:57.030 --> 00:02:00.725 And they outwardly appear to be doing very well and have no clue what they're doing. 00:02:01.840 --> 00:02:02.130 na: Yeah. 00:02:02.175 --> 00:02:02.535 Kurt: Yeah. 00:02:02.535 --> 00:02:03.135 It's freakish. 00:02:03.375 --> 00:02:06.075 It's absolutely freakish and it happens a lot. 00:02:06.435 --> 00:02:06.825 Toby: Yeah. 00:02:06.825 --> 00:02:11.625 And you know, maybe the analogy, I don't think it's a one-to-one analogy, but like 00:02:11.625 --> 00:02:16.365 we probably both know people who have started WordPress agencies who have no 00:02:16.365 --> 00:02:20.355 idea how to design, no idea what good design, bad design, good code, bad. 00:02:20.385 --> 00:02:21.795 They don't code maybe like. 00:02:22.675 --> 00:02:26.785 But they, they're, I know a guy in town who probably hasn't learned 00:02:26.785 --> 00:02:29.485 how to design or code, but he's still running a pretty big agency. 00:02:31.525 --> 00:02:34.645 Kurt: I told people for the longest time, and I used to even say it on the other 00:02:34.645 --> 00:02:36.235 show that I'm on with Jonathan Denwood. 00:02:36.535 --> 00:02:40.675 I would say I'm more of an implementer, not a designer, but I added designers 00:02:40.675 --> 00:02:42.954 to my team to make up for my deficiency. 00:02:43.605 --> 00:02:48.885 And what I didn't realize that I was doing when I said that was I was automatically 00:02:48.885 --> 00:02:51.795 giving myself the backseat and telling people I didn't know what the heck 00:02:51.795 --> 00:02:54.195 I was doing, when in reality I did. 00:02:54.195 --> 00:02:56.775 I just don't prefer to be the one trying to invent. 00:02:57.540 --> 00:02:58.410 Design, you know what I mean? 00:02:58.410 --> 00:03:01.260 Like, like if someone shows me a website and it's got a really bad 00:03:01.260 --> 00:03:06.540 representation for white space or glaring color, that should not be on a page. 00:03:06.540 --> 00:03:09.519 Or, we talked about accessibility last week, right? 00:03:09.519 --> 00:03:13.149 So, so maybe I'll see something of, oh, well that's not accessible, that's 00:03:13.149 --> 00:03:17.619 a, there's not enough, variance in the color from the background to the text. 00:03:18.124 --> 00:03:22.689 And so when I have those conversations, I realize, oh, I am, I am a designer. 00:03:22.989 --> 00:03:23.529 I just. 00:03:23.694 --> 00:03:27.834 Choose not to soak up my time in that space. 00:03:28.134 --> 00:03:32.334 That is completely different than, I don't know what the heck I'm doing 00:03:32.334 --> 00:03:36.204 at all, but I run the company and I try to make a gazillion dollars at 00:03:36.204 --> 00:03:39.849 this thing because sooner or later I. 00:03:39.849 --> 00:03:40.829 The cat's out of the bag. 00:03:41.909 --> 00:03:44.849 You know, people recognize you don't know what you're doing and 00:03:44.849 --> 00:03:45.869 they've given you their money. 00:03:46.199 --> 00:03:49.049 So now, you know, and especially in the world of Stripe, I don't know 00:03:49.049 --> 00:03:52.019 if you've ever had anyone say, I want my money back with Stripe, or 00:03:52.019 --> 00:03:53.429 one of these tools that we Sure. 00:03:53.429 --> 00:03:53.519 Mm-hmm. 00:03:54.299 --> 00:03:57.559 There's not a, there's not a whole lot of, Flexibility in the argument. 00:03:57.564 --> 00:03:58.159 Right, right, right. 00:03:58.219 --> 00:04:01.730 Like you wake up one day and the money's gone and you go, Hey, Mr. 00:04:01.730 --> 00:04:03.019 Stripe, what happened to my money? 00:04:03.019 --> 00:04:04.939 And then, well, the customer said they weren't happy. 00:04:05.089 --> 00:04:07.159 Well, well, let me show you why they should be happy. 00:04:07.369 --> 00:04:07.640 You know? 00:04:07.700 --> 00:04:09.144 And then you gotta spend eight hours. 00:04:09.880 --> 00:04:09.970 Yeah. 00:04:09.970 --> 00:04:13.210 Documenting every conversation you ever had with the customer to justify 00:04:13.210 --> 00:04:17.140 that you are correct in hopes of getting some of your money back. 00:04:17.589 --> 00:04:20.380 so I'm really curious as to where these people are gonna go that don't 00:04:20.380 --> 00:04:21.339 know what the heck they're doing. 00:04:21.399 --> 00:04:22.150 Well, I think, 00:04:22.150 --> 00:04:24.669 Toby: like, to me it's, it's a different mindset to be like, I. 00:04:25.039 --> 00:04:28.919 they have no, for me, like I always have feel a lot of 00:04:28.919 --> 00:04:30.454 accountability for what I produce. 00:04:30.454 --> 00:04:30.694 Mm-hmm. 00:04:30.779 --> 00:04:35.079 Like, and part of it's probably the WordPress ethos, like, like, we're 00:04:35.079 --> 00:04:39.249 backwards compatible, like, you know, we're, you're gonna have a community 00:04:39.249 --> 00:04:40.659 supporting you, whether it's me or. 00:04:40.949 --> 00:04:41.669 Someone else. 00:04:41.769 --> 00:04:44.349 these people don't have any sense of that. 00:04:44.559 --> 00:04:46.419 They're just like, I'm out there for the money. 00:04:46.419 --> 00:04:50.179 And, and frankly, some of 'em were nonprofits, that, that were doing real 00:04:50.179 --> 00:04:53.809 work in the community and had investors and you know, like had people and you 00:04:53.809 --> 00:04:57.929 go like, and they're doing great work, great things, you know, like you go like. 00:04:58.944 --> 00:04:59.244 I don't know. 00:04:59.244 --> 00:05:02.694 It was foreign to me because they took no responsibility. 00:05:02.694 --> 00:05:05.064 Like, like future facing responsibility? 00:05:05.064 --> 00:05:06.264 Kurt: No, no. 00:05:06.534 --> 00:05:09.504 Like, like their lifetime deal isn't for the lifetime of the client. 00:05:09.504 --> 00:05:12.234 Their lifetime deal is like for as long as I feel like doing this. 00:05:12.864 --> 00:05:13.014 Yeah. 00:05:15.144 --> 00:05:15.624 Toby: Yeah. 00:05:16.104 --> 00:05:19.144 And I thought I, you know, like, I wonder too, like that comment 00:05:19.144 --> 00:05:22.804 actually like sparked something in me where I'm like, we've seen a lot of 00:05:22.804 --> 00:05:26.344 lifetime deals since you and I have been in WordPress lifetime deals just. 00:05:26.704 --> 00:05:30.484 Disappear from the, you know, you bought it and now it's gone. 00:05:30.484 --> 00:05:31.864 Now you're paying monthly all of a sudden. 00:05:32.494 --> 00:05:32.674 Yeah. 00:05:32.734 --> 00:05:32.944 Poof. 00:05:33.484 --> 00:05:36.814 And so it's not, I don't wanna like say it's like something weird that's 00:05:36.814 --> 00:05:40.744 happening that hasn't, you know, but I don't know if it's ethics. 00:05:40.744 --> 00:05:42.574 What is it that I'm, you know, like 00:05:43.414 --> 00:05:47.734 Kurt: I, this is so akin to you and I are like in the same 00:05:47.734 --> 00:05:49.114 space, but different ballparks. 00:05:49.114 --> 00:05:49.474 Right. 00:05:50.104 --> 00:05:51.994 I was reading A-T-L-D-R. 00:05:52.309 --> 00:05:57.379 You know, email link this morning, and it was about somebody in the SaaS space 00:05:57.739 --> 00:05:59.989 that considers themselves a developer. 00:05:59.989 --> 00:06:01.639 So they consider themselves a developer. 00:06:01.639 --> 00:06:01.939 Boom. 00:06:02.029 --> 00:06:06.469 And they realized they needed to rework their entire platform and they've been 00:06:06.469 --> 00:06:08.089 getting real interested in AI and things. 00:06:08.089 --> 00:06:11.839 So they jumped into, you know, Claude and Cursor and all these things and, 00:06:11.839 --> 00:06:15.409 and they started rebuilding this project on a different platform. 00:06:15.679 --> 00:06:16.849 So they were, they were. 00:06:16.909 --> 00:06:20.059 They had a project that would worked well, but was getting dated, and 00:06:20.059 --> 00:06:23.419 they wanted to update that platform on something completely new. 00:06:25.099 --> 00:06:27.829 They, they wanted to update that platform on something completely new. 00:06:28.219 --> 00:06:30.929 My computer just glitched, so if I'm gone, you're 00:06:30.929 --> 00:06:31.529 Toby: there. 00:06:31.619 --> 00:06:32.009 Kurt: I'm here. 00:06:32.009 --> 00:06:32.369 Good. 00:06:32.729 --> 00:06:36.649 So, he starts rebuilding this thing, but using all ai and he puts in the 00:06:36.649 --> 00:06:39.949 article, I was flying, everything was coming together, things were 00:06:39.949 --> 00:06:44.029 working, you know, and then there was a little problem here and he went 00:06:44.029 --> 00:06:46.219 to fix it and it, and it fixed it. 00:06:46.534 --> 00:06:49.714 But then it, another problem over here and the, and then he starts 00:06:49.714 --> 00:06:51.064 playing Whack-a-mole in this thing, 00:06:51.454 --> 00:06:51.484 Toby: Uhhuh. 00:06:51.694 --> 00:06:56.944 Kurt: And then by his own account, he says, I had to make the recogni, the 00:06:57.004 --> 00:06:59.284 recognition that I am a developer. 00:06:59.284 --> 00:07:00.124 I am a coder. 00:07:00.394 --> 00:07:03.754 So I had to start looking at things that I had to greenlit, 00:07:04.204 --> 00:07:05.494 you know, through this process. 00:07:05.734 --> 00:07:08.194 And he said that's when the nightmare started. 00:07:08.704 --> 00:07:09.304 He was like. 00:07:09.764 --> 00:07:14.924 There were, there were folders inside certain packets that had like, not 00:07:14.924 --> 00:07:18.764 the identical name, but a similar name, and they did the same functions. 00:07:19.064 --> 00:07:25.094 He said that AI had built for him this thing, but he, he compared it 00:07:25.094 --> 00:07:29.744 to like, maybe he's, maybe he's the, the lead coder on the project and 00:07:29.744 --> 00:07:34.094 he's got eight to 10 junior coders underneath him, and he said it was like. 00:07:34.429 --> 00:07:38.539 You locked all the coders in soundproof rooms by themselves 00:07:38.869 --> 00:07:40.159 instead of like in a cubicle farm. 00:07:40.159 --> 00:07:40.249 Mm-hmm. 00:07:40.489 --> 00:07:41.449 Where they could talk to each other. 00:07:41.449 --> 00:07:41.509 Yeah. 00:07:41.689 --> 00:07:44.719 He said nothing related to the other thing. 00:07:44.809 --> 00:07:50.119 And even though it forcibly performed a function, it didn't do it effectively. 00:07:50.119 --> 00:07:54.049 And he had a lot of like, just like code burden, like there 00:07:54.049 --> 00:07:55.759 was just junk everywhere. 00:07:55.849 --> 00:07:56.869 And he said, so. 00:07:57.654 --> 00:08:01.764 because I didn't just trash it, but I'm reworking it now from the perspective of 00:08:02.124 --> 00:08:05.154 it's not about saving time, it's about doing it right and it's about having 00:08:05.154 --> 00:08:09.324 a quality product and something that your customers will enjoy downstream. 00:08:09.834 --> 00:08:13.344 Because if you have AI build all that stuff, and it's, this 00:08:13.344 --> 00:08:14.634 is where I'm just in my head. 00:08:14.664 --> 00:08:18.324 'cause we, we talked about this very slightly an episode or two 00:08:18.324 --> 00:08:20.964 ago about AI and, and this thing with customers thinking, I'll 00:08:20.964 --> 00:08:22.434 just have AI make me a plugin. 00:08:22.854 --> 00:08:27.114 Who updates that, who, who comes along and says, let me fix that for you. 00:08:27.144 --> 00:08:28.974 Or, 'cause people think it's easy. 00:08:28.974 --> 00:08:32.364 Like now, you know, in the day of like, this is WordPress 6.8, 00:08:32.424 --> 00:08:33.924 great, you're on WordPress 6.8, 00:08:33.924 --> 00:08:34.824 you've made a plugin. 00:08:34.824 --> 00:08:35.244 Boom. 00:08:35.604 --> 00:08:36.984 WordPress 9.0 00:08:36.984 --> 00:08:43.014 rolls out in 2027 and all of a sudden your website gives you a big 00:08:43.014 --> 00:08:44.724 white screen, says critical error. 00:08:45.354 --> 00:08:46.104 What are you gonna do? 00:08:47.794 --> 00:08:52.354 Just turn off your custom cool plugin or try and hire a guy like me to fix it. 00:08:52.384 --> 00:08:53.404 'cause I don't wanna fix it. 00:08:53.914 --> 00:08:54.334 Toby: Right. 00:08:54.844 --> 00:08:57.284 Well, yeah, and I think there's another piece that it's like, I. 00:08:57.439 --> 00:09:01.499 Just some kind of like, like, cowboy mentality, if that makes sense. 00:09:01.499 --> 00:09:05.489 Like, so there's a guy at that meetup that was claimed to have been doing 00:09:05.519 --> 00:09:08.699 a million in recurring revenue on a platform he built with no code. 00:09:08.909 --> 00:09:11.729 He has no idea what's server it's on. 00:09:11.759 --> 00:09:13.679 But he is making a million bucks a month. 00:09:13.679 --> 00:09:16.449 He says, you know, maybe he is, but like, I'm like. 00:09:17.109 --> 00:09:18.759 Does this seem weird to anybody? 00:09:19.719 --> 00:09:21.519 Like is, are any alarm bells going off? 00:09:23.769 --> 00:09:26.859 Kurt: Well, I don't think there are alarm bells going off in some of these circles, 00:09:26.859 --> 00:09:28.509 and that's, that's kind of where I get, I. 00:09:29.454 --> 00:09:33.384 When AI was first rolling out the way that we think of it now, a 00:09:33.384 --> 00:09:37.284 couple years ago, you know, when I was on different shows and stuff, I 00:09:37.284 --> 00:09:39.534 wasn't like a say no to AI person. 00:09:39.534 --> 00:09:42.204 I was like, be curious, like be a be AI curious. 00:09:42.204 --> 00:09:43.584 Go figure things, things out. 00:09:43.584 --> 00:09:44.064 Go use it. 00:09:44.064 --> 00:09:44.544 Play with it. 00:09:44.934 --> 00:09:47.874 You know, I recently signed up for a Magi account that combines it. 00:09:48.404 --> 00:09:51.434 A ton of different AI tools together, and I get to pick and choose what I 00:09:51.434 --> 00:09:56.324 wanna play with, and, but I'm using very specific words like I play with, 00:09:56.384 --> 00:10:02.114 I learn about, I, I don't go like blindly into something and say, build 00:10:02.114 --> 00:10:06.194 me something amazing and then put it up for sale for a hundred dollars a month. 00:10:06.544 --> 00:10:08.374 Toby: Yeah, well along those lines. 00:10:08.374 --> 00:10:10.534 So I got curious over the weekend. 00:10:10.534 --> 00:10:12.724 I built an app. 00:10:12.724 --> 00:10:17.404 I have, I have a WordPress plugin right now that is a music library of stuff. 00:10:17.524 --> 00:10:19.774 I was like, I'm gonna port, I'm gonna try to rebuild this 00:10:19.774 --> 00:10:21.454 as a headless WordPress thing. 00:10:21.934 --> 00:10:25.054 and it, I'm like, seven hours in and it's partially functional. 00:10:25.084 --> 00:10:29.944 Was not easy to get it to this point, and it made me think, I betcha I would 00:10:29.944 --> 00:10:32.464 be much further along if I had just said. 00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:34.449 Forget WordPress. 00:10:34.539 --> 00:10:38.859 Just build me an app on whatever technology you want, add stripe to it. 00:10:38.909 --> 00:10:43.259 you know, like partition it, multi-tenant, you know, blah, blah, blah. 00:10:43.259 --> 00:10:46.139 I, who knows, maybe I would have a fully functioning app. 00:10:46.349 --> 00:10:48.899 It was the tying back to WordPress that was slowing me down. 00:10:48.899 --> 00:10:55.199 And by the way, AI was not very helpful with getting that connection going. 00:10:55.199 --> 00:10:57.089 So I had a, a window open with chat. 00:10:57.089 --> 00:10:57.779 GPT. 00:10:58.529 --> 00:11:02.449 And then the window opened with Versel and, I'm, so, I would like go to chat pt. 00:11:02.449 --> 00:11:04.009 I'm like, Versal said this. 00:11:04.429 --> 00:11:06.709 What do you think's going on with my WordPress site? 00:11:07.129 --> 00:11:09.289 And I asked, because Versal doesn't know WordPress. 00:11:09.289 --> 00:11:10.459 I guess I was asking it stuff. 00:11:10.459 --> 00:11:12.379 And it's like, no, I don't know WordPress. 00:11:12.469 --> 00:11:12.559 Like, 00:11:13.399 --> 00:11:13.729 Kurt: that is a 00:11:13.729 --> 00:11:14.059 Toby: bummer. 00:11:14.389 --> 00:11:15.019 Yeah. 00:11:15.099 --> 00:11:18.609 anyway, that's where I'm at with no code. 00:11:18.659 --> 00:11:19.259 it was fun. 00:11:19.299 --> 00:11:21.939 maybe I'll, but yeah, the question would be like, should I just. 00:11:22.674 --> 00:11:27.714 Build the app with Versal and then port my data, make an Im use Versal 00:11:27.714 --> 00:11:29.184 to create an import function. 00:11:30.084 --> 00:11:34.584 Kurt: Like, well, but that takes us to another kind of another one of 00:11:34.584 --> 00:11:38.214 your big questions in our notes, and that is, you know, you would asked 00:11:38.214 --> 00:11:41.424 about our live WordPress meetups dead. 00:11:41.604 --> 00:11:42.084 Toby: Yeah. 00:11:42.354 --> 00:11:43.854 Kurt: And then I start to think about. 00:11:44.589 --> 00:11:45.819 Live WordPress meetups. 00:11:45.819 --> 00:11:50.149 My last few live WordPress meetups, I run the one here in Hutchinson, Kansas. 00:11:50.149 --> 00:11:51.379 So ours just started. 00:11:51.769 --> 00:11:54.709 So, you know, I know you, you made a note about one just dying and 00:11:54.709 --> 00:11:57.139 it's like, oh, I see 'em coming and going, coming and going. 00:11:57.139 --> 00:12:02.149 But I started the one in Hutchinson just over a year ago, and the 00:12:02.179 --> 00:12:05.839 last couple of meetups that we had very, very light on attendance. 00:12:06.329 --> 00:12:08.909 but I'm thinking back to the people that came. 00:12:09.359 --> 00:12:13.529 And so like six months ago, a girl from high school came and she's like, I'm 00:12:13.529 --> 00:12:14.969 not really into this WordPress thing. 00:12:14.969 --> 00:12:15.929 I like to code. 00:12:16.169 --> 00:12:16.259 na: And 00:12:17.159 --> 00:12:18.899 Kurt: I was like, you code what? 00:12:19.379 --> 00:12:19.769 I don't know. 00:12:19.769 --> 00:12:20.879 We just do coding. 00:12:21.749 --> 00:12:23.170 Like, okay, you're out. 00:12:23.170 --> 00:12:24.069 I can't talk to you. 00:12:24.390 --> 00:12:28.680 and then my last couple of meetups have, I've had people on this topic of ai. 00:12:29.545 --> 00:12:31.194 Oh, I just want the computer to do this. 00:12:31.194 --> 00:12:32.574 I want the computer to do that. 00:12:32.574 --> 00:12:35.454 I, how's WordPress gonna help me to do that with ai? 00:12:35.454 --> 00:12:38.694 And I'm like, why is AI your linchpin? 00:12:38.724 --> 00:12:38.964 Why? 00:12:39.024 --> 00:12:43.464 Why do you think AI is the solution for you considering you don't 00:12:43.464 --> 00:12:44.935 have an online business yet? 00:12:45.805 --> 00:12:49.614 Like AI is not gonna run your food truck for you, right? 00:12:49.614 --> 00:12:51.384 You're still gonna have to cook the sandwiches. 00:12:51.714 --> 00:12:53.935 So I, I just. 00:12:54.630 --> 00:13:00.510 The, the impression, the branding, the media is pushing AI in this weird way 00:13:00.810 --> 00:13:04.920 that people outside the industry are coming in with these very strange notions 00:13:04.920 --> 00:13:06.360 about what they're gonna accomplish. 00:13:06.870 --> 00:13:07.020 na: Mm-hmm. 00:13:07.380 --> 00:13:12.420 Kurt: And so is, is, what are your thoughts on the live WordPress meetups 00:13:12.990 --> 00:13:17.340 and then based on the experience I've just had, do you think they're 00:13:17.340 --> 00:13:20.910 gonna morph and change into more of these generalist conversations? 00:13:21.660 --> 00:13:24.540 Or do you think we're gonna end up playing gatekeeper and telling people 00:13:24.540 --> 00:13:27.119 that WordPress is WordPress and you should leave some stuff alone? 00:13:27.420 --> 00:13:28.469 Toby: Yeah, I've been wondering that. 00:13:28.530 --> 00:13:29.520 I think so. 00:13:29.520 --> 00:13:33.449 When I went to this meetup for the No code, one thing stood out to me. 00:13:33.479 --> 00:13:36.839 There's an energy in it that doesn't exist in the WordPress meetup. 00:13:37.109 --> 00:13:37.229 Yeah. 00:13:37.229 --> 00:13:41.819 In the sense like, this is new and interesting and let's see what craziness, 00:13:41.939 --> 00:13:43.500 crazy things we can build today. 00:13:43.650 --> 00:13:46.199 Why don't we do a meetup next week where we all build something 00:13:46.199 --> 00:13:47.790 awesome and launch it, you know? 00:13:47.790 --> 00:13:48.000 And. 00:13:48.464 --> 00:13:51.494 That's the energy we had at WordPress meetups 15 years ago. 00:13:51.644 --> 00:13:51.944 Yeah. 00:13:52.004 --> 00:13:52.364 yeah, 00:13:53.504 --> 00:13:55.514 Kurt: that's back when you said, Hey, let's build a, let's build 00:13:55.514 --> 00:13:56.624 a website for a food truck. 00:13:56.624 --> 00:13:59.819 Everybody went, that would be a right. 00:14:00.009 --> 00:14:00.299 Yeah. 00:14:00.614 --> 00:14:02.594 And now you're like, Hey, let's build a website for a food truck. 00:14:02.594 --> 00:14:02.954 And they're like. 00:14:02.984 --> 00:14:04.904 Yeah, there's lots of food trucks. 00:14:04.904 --> 00:14:05.294 Toby: Yeah. 00:14:06.044 --> 00:14:06.494 Yeah. 00:14:06.584 --> 00:14:09.704 It's, and it's, it's like, like if someone was like, let's, let's say, 00:14:09.734 --> 00:14:11.624 let's talk about Microsoft Windows. 00:14:11.624 --> 00:14:14.564 It has that like, yeah, why would we talk about Microsoft Windows? 00:14:14.564 --> 00:14:15.704 Everybody uses it. 00:14:15.704 --> 00:14:19.185 Like, have you all seen Vista? 00:14:22.224 --> 00:14:22.314 right. 00:14:22.884 --> 00:14:26.334 So we do have a WordPress Wednesday meetup that's been going for 15 years 00:14:26.334 --> 00:14:28.404 now, and that's, we meet up for coworking. 00:14:28.704 --> 00:14:29.664 There's no agenda. 00:14:29.664 --> 00:14:30.805 We go to lunch sometimes. 00:14:30.854 --> 00:14:30.974 I. 00:14:31.709 --> 00:14:34.709 But yeah, I don't, I've been wondering if like the WordPress 00:14:34.709 --> 00:14:36.930 meetups are, are just kind of dead. 00:14:37.030 --> 00:14:38.319 at least the local ones. 00:14:39.010 --> 00:14:43.420 I did go to Word Camp last year and I spoke at it in We Minneapolis. 00:14:43.499 --> 00:14:44.489 it's hard to say. 00:14:44.489 --> 00:14:45.180 I, it's hard. 00:14:45.239 --> 00:14:49.069 I'm kind of like, I don't, I was only there for a short while, so I didn't 00:14:49.069 --> 00:14:53.700 get the full, just Do you go to any, word camps or other meetups or, I. 00:14:54.660 --> 00:14:58.110 Kurt: I will tell you, the one in Phoenix is like off the chain. 00:14:58.710 --> 00:14:59.100 Right? 00:14:59.340 --> 00:15:02.670 But then you have to get back to, you gotta put your head 00:15:02.670 --> 00:15:04.230 back in the space of reality. 00:15:04.260 --> 00:15:04.710 Right? 00:15:05.280 --> 00:15:07.590 GoDaddy lives there, right? 00:15:07.590 --> 00:15:10.410 And they had all those people, they, I know they had their big layoffs and all 00:15:10.410 --> 00:15:12.090 that stuff after the last one I went to. 00:15:12.090 --> 00:15:15.750 So may maybe the energy and the vibe is gonna be different, but, 00:15:15.750 --> 00:15:19.230 you know, GoDaddy's there, all those people come and, and show up. 00:15:19.650 --> 00:15:23.670 What freaked me out about going to the, to the meetup in Phoenix was it was. 00:15:24.180 --> 00:15:26.700 There was a ton of people that were like, oh, I just have a WordPress 00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:29.910 website of my own and I wanted to see what this was about, you know? 00:15:29.910 --> 00:15:31.560 And I was like, that is bizarre. 00:15:31.590 --> 00:15:33.630 'cause I didn't think, I didn't think that's who was coming. 00:15:34.000 --> 00:15:37.720 but I ran into a bunch of site owners that were not WordPress people. 00:15:37.750 --> 00:15:39.130 They were, they were site owners. 00:15:39.610 --> 00:15:43.330 and I just really felt the vibe in Phoenix was like tremendous. 00:15:43.510 --> 00:15:43.630 na: Mm-hmm. 00:15:43.870 --> 00:15:44.020 And 00:15:44.020 --> 00:15:47.030 Kurt: then, you know, there's these, and that's not, I shouldn't 00:15:47.030 --> 00:15:47.750 say that's a meetup, right? 00:15:47.750 --> 00:15:48.560 That's a word camp. 00:15:48.560 --> 00:15:49.580 The Phoenix Word Camp. 00:15:49.610 --> 00:15:49.910 na: Mm-hmm. 00:15:50.180 --> 00:15:54.050 Kurt: The meetups when I started doing them on the West coast. 00:15:54.080 --> 00:15:56.450 'cause I, I moved to Kansas recently, but when I was in 00:15:56.450 --> 00:15:59.270 California, they're in person. 00:15:59.720 --> 00:16:00.110 They were not. 00:16:00.770 --> 00:16:01.370 Exciting. 00:16:02.120 --> 00:16:06.470 Even the one I went to that had five or six people show up, it wasn't exciting, 00:16:07.430 --> 00:16:11.330 but then they had a virtual one, and so if they didn't do live, they would 00:16:11.330 --> 00:16:15.020 do virtual and then the attendance would be three times as many people. 00:16:15.770 --> 00:16:18.440 But then I start to recognize some names from some other 00:16:18.740 --> 00:16:20.450 meetups that I went to virtually. 00:16:20.840 --> 00:16:24.560 And so like there's, there's a guy that lives in Idaho that 00:16:24.560 --> 00:16:29.540 is in the San Francisco meetup, the San Diego Meetup, the. 00:16:29.900 --> 00:16:31.100 Inland Empire Meetup. 00:16:31.100 --> 00:16:33.650 You know, he's, he's, he's obviously attending meetups every day. 00:16:34.130 --> 00:16:37.580 but there's, there's a ton of people like that that go to a bunch of virtual. 00:16:38.000 --> 00:16:42.590 WordPress meetups and it gives 'em this false energy, like it's that region, 00:16:42.590 --> 00:16:45.350 but it's not, it's, it's like all these same 10 people that know each 00:16:45.350 --> 00:16:46.790 other that jump on all these calls. 00:16:46.790 --> 00:16:46.850 Hmm. 00:16:47.420 --> 00:16:50.900 But what I really, really loved about that particular setup, that 00:16:50.900 --> 00:16:54.800 was the Inland Empire one, run by, various, I think is his name. 00:16:55.220 --> 00:16:58.090 And, the people would come in with websites. 00:16:58.090 --> 00:17:02.830 They owned a website, and that meetup would not stop until they solved 00:17:02.830 --> 00:17:04.480 whatever that person's problem was. 00:17:04.480 --> 00:17:04.540 I. 00:17:05.545 --> 00:17:06.054 It was cool. 00:17:06.054 --> 00:17:08.935 Someone would come in like, oh, I can't get this form to work. 00:17:08.965 --> 00:17:10.435 Oh, well, what form tool are you using? 00:17:10.764 --> 00:17:13.375 And then 10 people you know when the space start, you know? 00:17:13.910 --> 00:17:15.950 brainstorming this thing and they would just fix it. 00:17:16.040 --> 00:17:17.690 Or my website has a critical error. 00:17:17.750 --> 00:17:18.740 Well, what's your host? 00:17:18.770 --> 00:17:19.339 Sign in. 00:17:19.339 --> 00:17:19.970 Share a screen. 00:17:19.970 --> 00:17:20.569 Let's get to work. 00:17:20.599 --> 00:17:20.690 Mm-hmm. 00:17:21.079 --> 00:17:23.119 You know, and that part was really cool. 00:17:23.119 --> 00:17:26.180 Like, that was, that was the vibe you were talking about. 00:17:26.180 --> 00:17:27.170 Like, let's build something. 00:17:27.230 --> 00:17:27.680 Yeah. 00:17:27.710 --> 00:17:29.330 Like let's build some, let's fix something. 00:17:29.450 --> 00:17:34.820 And it was really cool watching some seasoned old dudes fix some stuff. 00:17:35.120 --> 00:17:35.360 na: Mm-hmm. 00:17:35.900 --> 00:17:39.440 Kurt: But I personally think that these in-person meetups 00:17:39.470 --> 00:17:41.210 should be more geared towards. 00:17:41.810 --> 00:17:45.230 Almost like recruiting, like recruiting younger people to the space we're in. 00:17:45.500 --> 00:17:45.680 na: Mm-hmm. 00:17:47.180 --> 00:17:49.190 Kurt: And I kind of struggle with that, finding these younger, 00:17:49.220 --> 00:17:50.690 younger brains, younger minds. 00:17:51.080 --> 00:17:51.470 Toby: Oops. 00:17:51.560 --> 00:17:52.220 Kurt: It's tough though. 00:17:52.220 --> 00:17:53.060 'cause like even in 00:17:53.060 --> 00:17:56.420 Toby: the WordPress space, like seasoned WordPress developers are 00:17:56.420 --> 00:17:59.540 like, I'm gonna try, was it flow? 00:17:59.540 --> 00:18:00.530 Or whatever the flow. 00:18:01.140 --> 00:18:01.770 Web flow. 00:18:01.770 --> 00:18:04.680 I'm gonna try like, like there's not a loyalty that there 00:18:04.680 --> 00:18:06.300 used to be like a, you know, 00:18:06.900 --> 00:18:09.750 Kurt: well, at the end of the day, and, and I don't mean to sound like such a 00:18:09.750 --> 00:18:15.390 callous jerk, but WordPress is a tool like for agencies and, and builders. 00:18:15.390 --> 00:18:17.100 It's a tool like, so what tool are you gonna use? 00:18:17.430 --> 00:18:20.490 Like, some people use Makita, some people run down a Harbor Freight, 00:18:20.490 --> 00:18:24.210 some people run down to Home Depot and buy the the blue thing or whatever. 00:18:24.510 --> 00:18:27.090 You know what, sometimes, like you just said, maybe it would be 00:18:27.090 --> 00:18:28.500 faster if you didn't use WordPress. 00:18:28.500 --> 00:18:31.260 You just used some other platform and, and built out your idea. 00:18:31.590 --> 00:18:31.980 Right. 00:18:32.080 --> 00:18:34.120 I will tell you, I got curious. 00:18:34.330 --> 00:18:37.330 I loaded up Drupal to see how much it's changed in the last few years. 00:18:37.750 --> 00:18:39.670 I couldn't wait to get out of that screen. 00:18:39.910 --> 00:18:41.415 I was like, I'm running back to WordPress. 00:18:41.535 --> 00:18:42.670 I don't like this at all. 00:18:43.240 --> 00:18:44.860 you know, 'cause I had done Drupal before. 00:18:44.860 --> 00:18:46.180 I had done Jula. 00:18:46.180 --> 00:18:47.080 na: Mm-hmm. 00:18:47.111 --> 00:18:52.380 Kurt: I did one called, It was a Camelback Live sites by Camelback or something. 00:18:52.380 --> 00:18:52.831 All right. 00:18:52.931 --> 00:18:55.631 that was, and it did what I needed it to do at the time. 00:18:56.081 --> 00:18:58.871 But you know, I take a look at these things now, these kind of 00:18:58.871 --> 00:19:02.861 sassy kind of platforms, and it's like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. 00:19:02.861 --> 00:19:04.031 It's not, it's not hitting the mark. 00:19:04.031 --> 00:19:06.731 It's not giving me the freedom to build what I want to build. 00:19:07.121 --> 00:19:08.921 And so I end up back in the WordPress space. 00:19:09.131 --> 00:19:09.551 na: Mm-hmm. 00:19:11.991 --> 00:19:13.281 Toby: moving on new this week. 00:19:13.361 --> 00:19:16.931 I, I, I'm paying a bunch of money for our LinkedIn marketing campaign. 00:19:20.291 --> 00:19:21.041 na: I'll ask again. 00:19:21.041 --> 00:19:22.211 You got, you got me, you got me. 00:19:22.721 --> 00:19:23.501 The bait is out. 00:19:23.621 --> 00:19:25.451 I'll, I'll, I'll take a, at this hook. 00:19:26.801 --> 00:19:31.631 Why, why is he spending a bunch of money on LinkedIn marketing? 00:19:31.961 --> 00:19:36.880 Toby: So, well, I run an agency, you know, it's, we have, two full-timers 00:19:36.880 --> 00:19:38.981 now and five or six contractors. 00:19:39.731 --> 00:19:42.906 and I'm not looking to go hockey stick, you know, but if I can like. 00:19:43.571 --> 00:19:44.651 They have a slight bump. 00:19:44.866 --> 00:19:45.521 I, I see it. 00:19:45.521 --> 00:19:47.741 If I get one or two new customers a year, I notice it. 00:19:47.841 --> 00:19:49.881 and so I'm always trying to close more deals. 00:19:49.881 --> 00:19:51.591 Like my job is basically sales. 00:19:51.741 --> 00:19:54.681 and most of our leads come from SEO these days. 00:19:55.011 --> 00:19:58.630 We get some referral, but so I'm always like listening for opportunities. 00:19:58.630 --> 00:20:00.461 And there's a guy in town here who pitched me. 00:20:00.891 --> 00:20:04.521 he built an app probably with no-code as my 'cause He is part, well, a partner at 00:20:04.521 --> 00:20:06.591 the no-code meetup, but he bought an app. 00:20:08.151 --> 00:20:09.021 No, he didn't buy an app. 00:20:09.021 --> 00:20:09.741 He built an app. 00:20:10.161 --> 00:20:12.801 He had a vision for what the app should do, and I think he built it. 00:20:13.101 --> 00:20:14.541 and the way he pitched it is this. 00:20:14.541 --> 00:20:16.361 He goes, and this resonated with me, by the way. 00:20:16.391 --> 00:20:16.841 'cause like I. 00:20:17.006 --> 00:20:20.186 I mean, how many times have you been pitched social media 00:20:20.186 --> 00:20:24.176 marketing and you're just like, Ugh, well this is how I respond. 00:20:24.176 --> 00:20:24.686 I don't know about you. 00:20:24.866 --> 00:20:26.176 Like, no, thank you. 00:20:27.676 --> 00:20:31.066 Like, that's my, my gut reaction is like, no, thank you. 00:20:31.066 --> 00:20:34.116 But, and the reason it's no, thank you is 'cause like the metric 00:20:34.116 --> 00:20:37.256 for success for social media people is imp what's the word? 00:20:37.256 --> 00:20:38.156 It's not impressions. 00:20:38.156 --> 00:20:39.776 It's something worse than impressions. 00:20:40.706 --> 00:20:41.546 Like the conversions. 00:20:41.696 --> 00:20:42.536 No, no, no, no, no, no. 00:20:42.536 --> 00:20:43.586 Way worse than conversions. 00:20:44.111 --> 00:20:47.081 There's like conversions, then impressions, and then like, 00:20:47.651 --> 00:20:50.381 like something less than views, interactions or something. 00:20:50.741 --> 00:20:50.771 oh. 00:20:50.981 --> 00:20:55.061 But anyway, I'm always like, first of all, it's like just to climb the social 00:20:55.061 --> 00:20:58.901 media ladder, you have to define what is an interaction, what am I paying for? 00:20:58.901 --> 00:20:58.961 I. 00:21:00.401 --> 00:21:04.631 So this guy pitches me this LinkedIn thing, and the gist of it is this. 00:21:04.631 --> 00:21:09.491 He's like, look, our goal is gonna be to get you phone calls with qualified leads. 00:21:09.491 --> 00:21:12.431 That's kind of the, the gist, like, so we're gonna start with the end in mind, 00:21:12.431 --> 00:21:16.951 and all it is is building your, He built a tool that kind of makes this quicker. 00:21:16.951 --> 00:21:18.841 But it's all stuff you could do with the click of the mouse. 00:21:18.841 --> 00:21:21.421 But, he basically, right, let's, right now, let's say I 00:21:21.421 --> 00:21:23.911 have 2000 friends on LinkedIn. 00:21:24.091 --> 00:21:27.151 He's like, we're gonna try to get you up to 3000, then 4,000 and 00:21:27.151 --> 00:21:29.491 we're gonna start where you live and we're gonna grow, grow, grow. 00:21:29.821 --> 00:21:31.951 And you're gonna annoy the heck outta some people. 00:21:31.951 --> 00:21:34.711 'cause you're gonna be like the, what the software does, is it like. 00:21:35.616 --> 00:21:38.676 Once they say, yeah, let's connect, it starts sending them my 00:21:38.676 --> 00:21:41.946 program of like a series of stuff. 00:21:42.046 --> 00:21:45.106 and the goal is to get a phone call at some point for a sales call. 00:21:45.106 --> 00:21:45.686 But, I. 00:21:46.941 --> 00:21:49.341 But the idea is once you build the network, then you start 00:21:49.341 --> 00:21:51.831 doing webinars on LinkedIn live. 00:21:52.071 --> 00:21:57.891 And so let's say now I have 5,000 people, the invitations on LinkedIn come into 00:21:57.891 --> 00:22:00.081 a, they come in in a different way. 00:22:00.261 --> 00:22:02.481 It's not like you're getting spammed an email, it's just kind 00:22:02.481 --> 00:22:04.341 of however it is, it's different. 00:22:04.791 --> 00:22:05.001 Yeah. 00:22:05.001 --> 00:22:05.781 That's what I'm told. 00:22:06.651 --> 00:22:10.521 and the gist of it's, I'm gonna do the same webinar every week. 00:22:10.921 --> 00:22:13.711 For the next 172 weeks. 00:22:15.001 --> 00:22:17.661 And, maybe he's, he's like, look, I've done it. 00:22:17.661 --> 00:22:18.201 It works. 00:22:18.201 --> 00:22:20.031 You're gonna get five people at every webinar. 00:22:20.061 --> 00:22:22.611 There's gonna be like one person that attends six in a row, and 00:22:22.611 --> 00:22:25.551 then that person will call you and like, so that's the whole thing. 00:22:25.671 --> 00:22:26.391 It's very. 00:22:26.906 --> 00:22:28.526 There's nothing tricky about it. 00:22:28.766 --> 00:22:29.396 but that's it. 00:22:29.936 --> 00:22:31.046 And the goal is to sell. 00:22:31.046 --> 00:22:35.226 If I can sell one more a month on average, like, yeah, exactly. 00:22:35.346 --> 00:22:37.236 But to me it made sense. 00:22:37.266 --> 00:22:39.876 Like I go compared to all everything else, I'm being pitched. 00:22:39.876 --> 00:22:40.116 I go, eh, 00:22:40.686 --> 00:22:41.406 Kurt: seems okay. 00:22:41.746 --> 00:22:42.706 It makes sense. 00:22:43.156 --> 00:22:45.706 I used a very similar tool. 00:22:45.856 --> 00:22:51.766 I was at like 1800 connections on LinkedIn, and to me, a connection 00:22:52.066 --> 00:22:54.016 me, it means I should be connected. 00:22:54.016 --> 00:22:56.866 Like I, I, I tend to overdo everything, right? 00:22:56.866 --> 00:22:58.696 So I'm like, let's get down to basics. 00:22:58.996 --> 00:23:00.616 So my goal is I want to have. 00:23:00.966 --> 00:23:04.146 I wanna have an icebreaker conversation with everybody I'm connected to. 00:23:04.566 --> 00:23:05.406 Like that's my goal. 00:23:05.436 --> 00:23:06.966 It's not realistic, but it's my goal. 00:23:07.386 --> 00:23:10.656 And so I went through my account and people that I had connected with that 00:23:10.656 --> 00:23:13.656 I never talked to, never interacted with, never shared a message with. 00:23:13.956 --> 00:23:14.916 I just disconnected. 00:23:14.916 --> 00:23:15.336 And you know what? 00:23:15.336 --> 00:23:16.476 They never missed me anyway. 00:23:16.566 --> 00:23:16.986 Right? 00:23:17.286 --> 00:23:20.616 So then I drove it down to like 1100 connections or something. 00:23:20.991 --> 00:23:26.551 And then I used a tool that would be like, view their, so search people out by basic 00:23:26.551 --> 00:23:29.161 search criteria in that search criteria. 00:23:29.461 --> 00:23:34.411 View their profile, like one or two of their posts, send them a connection 00:23:34.411 --> 00:23:37.021 request, send them a message. 00:23:37.361 --> 00:23:40.481 to me the key to the messaging in LinkedIn is to use it like text messaging. 00:23:40.481 --> 00:23:43.451 Very brief, very easy and non-salesy. 00:23:43.451 --> 00:23:44.171 I don't send them any. 00:23:44.476 --> 00:23:46.276 appointment links or anything like that up front. 00:23:46.276 --> 00:23:48.316 I just say, Hey, it's great to connect. 00:23:48.586 --> 00:23:50.326 If you're up for an icebreaker call, let me know. 00:23:50.806 --> 00:23:51.016 Boom. 00:23:51.076 --> 00:23:51.706 Like, that's it. 00:23:52.126 --> 00:23:55.666 And then amazingly, a lot of people are curious 'cause then they're like, 00:23:55.666 --> 00:23:57.256 this guy didn't pitch me a dang thing. 00:23:57.256 --> 00:23:58.666 What is he, what, what is this about? 00:23:58.786 --> 00:24:01.486 And I tell 'em, I just like to get to know everybody I'm connected 00:24:01.486 --> 00:24:03.256 to and it goes somewhere great. 00:24:03.256 --> 00:24:04.816 If it doesn't go anywhere, that's fine too. 00:24:05.056 --> 00:24:08.206 If turns out you have five friends I should be talking to instead of you. 00:24:08.591 --> 00:24:10.211 Just put me in touch with those five friends. 00:24:10.531 --> 00:24:11.491 and that works. 00:24:11.611 --> 00:24:17.371 And so I will tell you, I got up to 10,000 connections pretty quick and 00:24:17.371 --> 00:24:18.871 that turned into a nightmare, Toby. 00:24:20.371 --> 00:24:24.836 So, so I turned everything off for a long time, and then I had to kinda 00:24:25.111 --> 00:24:30.451 let the spam wave die down because my inbox was full of spam from LinkedIn. 00:24:30.451 --> 00:24:30.511 Hmm. 00:24:31.111 --> 00:24:33.541 So I had to kind of let that die down a little bit. 00:24:33.866 --> 00:24:38.396 And then I just kind of slowly reengaged at a, at a much more organic pace. 00:24:38.816 --> 00:24:38.966 na: Mm-hmm. 00:24:40.646 --> 00:24:44.426 Toby: And, and in terms of slowing down, was part of it that like you were feeling 00:24:45.506 --> 00:24:47.936 like your belly was full of enough work? 00:24:47.936 --> 00:24:48.836 Is that kind of like, 00:24:48.896 --> 00:24:51.296 Kurt: well, yeah, I wasn't looking to have a second job. 00:24:52.106 --> 00:24:55.706 You know, all these people, you know, and then the, the pitches, you know, 00:24:55.706 --> 00:25:00.026 the 3, 4, 5 paragraphs from strangers, you know, and I'm just like, delete, 00:25:00.086 --> 00:25:01.706 delete, delete, delete, delete. 00:25:01.706 --> 00:25:02.786 And then I'm thinking to myself. 00:25:03.491 --> 00:25:06.101 I probably reached out to these people to make a connection. 00:25:06.161 --> 00:25:11.021 They think I'm a, a sucker on the line, so they're sending me all of this content. 00:25:11.021 --> 00:25:13.361 And I, I don't want all this content. 00:25:13.421 --> 00:25:16.631 I just wanna know if you're a human being, I wanna chat with or not. 00:25:16.691 --> 00:25:19.931 And apparently you're not because all you wanna do is sell me something 00:25:19.931 --> 00:25:22.451 in my dm, so I don't wanna be a part of your business anyway. 00:25:22.841 --> 00:25:25.931 Toby: But this is, I think, may, maybe there's something here to 00:25:25.931 --> 00:25:28.801 we could dive into a little deeper because, What we're describing is 00:25:28.801 --> 00:25:30.691 a sales or a marketing process. 00:25:30.841 --> 00:25:31.201 Kurt: Yeah. 00:25:31.471 --> 00:25:34.711 Toby: And every marketing process is gonna have problems that you have to 00:25:34.711 --> 00:25:39.241 resolve, whether it's social media, this, like your, your goal is to 00:25:39.241 --> 00:25:43.221 get qualified leads, even if it's SEO whatever, like you're, although. 00:25:44.586 --> 00:25:46.836 In a case like this, we're gonna, we know we're gonna get 00:25:46.986 --> 00:25:48.906 way more spam than not spam. 00:25:49.326 --> 00:25:49.656 Yeah. 00:25:49.926 --> 00:25:52.116 With LinkedIn or social media or whatever. 00:25:52.516 --> 00:25:54.766 and many other thing, my dad got a death threat once. 00:25:54.766 --> 00:25:55.786 'cause he did a robocall. 00:25:56.551 --> 00:25:59.716 He was, he did a robocall to like 10,000 people. 00:25:59.776 --> 00:26:01.846 He was like, starts getting death threats in return. 00:26:01.846 --> 00:26:01.847 Return. 00:26:01.852 --> 00:26:02.051 One more time. 00:26:02.236 --> 00:26:02.806 I'll kill you. 00:26:02.866 --> 00:26:03.526 Exactly. 00:26:03.766 --> 00:26:04.966 I will come there. 00:26:05.266 --> 00:26:07.456 I will chop off your leg. 00:26:08.251 --> 00:26:12.261 That I will come after your children, you know, like, but I think like. 00:26:13.116 --> 00:26:16.746 The goal is isn't to like have the most efficient, this is my opinion, like, 00:26:16.746 --> 00:26:20.316 like with a process like this, like let's say I can figure out how, let's say I 00:26:20.316 --> 00:26:24.516 figure out that it's generating leads, then I have to figure out, okay, I can't 00:26:24.516 --> 00:26:29.136 be in my inbox all day, so I might need to hire someone to like go through my 00:26:29.136 --> 00:26:31.056 inbox then, and it becomes more of like. 00:26:31.221 --> 00:26:33.111 That's just part of my business process. 00:26:33.141 --> 00:26:35.841 Kurt: Yeah, that's, that's virtual assistant days right there. 00:26:35.846 --> 00:26:35.916 Mm-hmm. 00:26:35.996 --> 00:26:36.156 Yep. 00:26:36.261 --> 00:26:36.501 Mm-hmm. 00:26:36.741 --> 00:26:40.821 Go through these and try and earmark which ones have the, the earmarks of success 00:26:41.211 --> 00:26:43.341 and ones that have the earmarks of doom. 00:26:43.611 --> 00:26:43.911 Yep. 00:26:44.211 --> 00:26:45.321 And then try to, try to filter through them. 00:26:45.891 --> 00:26:50.361 It, I had so much fun building my, my LinkedIn up to the 10,000 connections. 00:26:50.601 --> 00:26:52.221 I actually made a LinkedIn course. 00:26:52.281 --> 00:26:53.631 It's, it's on my website. 00:26:53.631 --> 00:26:57.461 I encourage people to check it out, but it's it was my experience and I 00:26:57.461 --> 00:27:01.601 thought, well, if I can go from 2000 to 10,000 connections on, on LinkedIn, 00:27:01.601 --> 00:27:02.951 I can show other people how to do it. 00:27:03.371 --> 00:27:07.551 But, it's interesting because now you can go to 30,000 connections on LinkedIn. 00:27:07.841 --> 00:27:09.641 That's a pretty cool thing of that platform. 00:27:10.001 --> 00:27:13.871 But I had to really sit back and go, do I want 30,000 connections on LinkedIn? 00:27:14.351 --> 00:27:19.121 the way that I grew my account, this sounds crazy, but I mean, I have 00:27:19.121 --> 00:27:23.771 literally spoken to probably 6,500 or 7,000 of the 10,000 connections. 00:27:24.011 --> 00:27:24.281 Toby: Wow. 00:27:24.641 --> 00:27:27.881 Kurt: And so it's weird, like if someone comes to me and says, Hey, so-and-so's 00:27:27.881 --> 00:27:30.311 on your list, do you think that's someone you could introduce me to? 00:27:30.701 --> 00:27:32.951 Chances are I've already spoken to them and I know if they're a 00:27:32.951 --> 00:27:34.091 good connection for you or not. 00:27:34.096 --> 00:27:34.456 na: Mm-hmm. 00:27:34.676 --> 00:27:34.976 Kurt: You know? 00:27:34.976 --> 00:27:35.176 Yep. 00:27:35.176 --> 00:27:39.576 And I think I told you before, I have this remarkable tablet, but yeah. 00:27:39.576 --> 00:27:39.816 Mm-hmm. 00:27:39.901 --> 00:27:43.121 I take every, every meeting I have, I take notes. 00:27:43.271 --> 00:27:46.421 And so if I met with that person, their name's in there. 00:27:46.421 --> 00:27:48.431 So even if it's like, I didn't remember their name right. 00:27:48.641 --> 00:27:50.381 But if you say, oh, did you talk to Mark Smith? 00:27:50.381 --> 00:27:51.576 I can go Mark Smith, boom. 00:27:51.596 --> 00:27:52.016 Mm-hmm. 00:27:52.101 --> 00:27:53.201 I say, yep, talk to him. 00:27:53.201 --> 00:27:56.136 November, 2023, these were the things we discussed. 00:27:57.071 --> 00:27:57.431 Toby: Yeah. 00:27:57.461 --> 00:27:58.301 That's pretty cool. 00:27:58.711 --> 00:27:59.461 along those lines. 00:27:59.521 --> 00:28:03.911 So, I wanna just kind of, you mentioned you, you did it, you, you saw an 00:28:03.911 --> 00:28:07.151 opportunity to teach a cl you know, you probably did the work and you're like, I 00:28:07.151 --> 00:28:08.831 might as well create a class out of this. 00:28:08.861 --> 00:28:09.191 Yeah. 00:28:09.591 --> 00:28:10.371 it was successful. 00:28:10.761 --> 00:28:14.671 And then that leads me to another question, similar to the marketing 00:28:14.671 --> 00:28:16.631 process, I'm curious about. 00:28:17.216 --> 00:28:19.886 Another marketing process, which is getting speaking gigs. 00:28:20.126 --> 00:28:20.306 Yeah. 00:28:20.376 --> 00:28:22.206 preferably in person, in town. 00:28:22.646 --> 00:28:24.506 but you mentioned a class. 00:28:24.896 --> 00:28:28.946 Have you pursued, you know, you could do, like, LinkedIn now has classes, 00:28:29.166 --> 00:28:32.466 LinkedIn learning and apparently a friend told me like, yeah, you can like sign up 00:28:32.466 --> 00:28:33.876 and teach a class at LinkedIn Learning. 00:28:33.876 --> 00:28:34.626 And I was like, what? 00:28:35.226 --> 00:28:35.886 there's Minneapolis. 00:28:35.946 --> 00:28:38.646 Minneapolis has community ad and then, or you can like just spend your 00:28:38.646 --> 00:28:40.716 own LinkedIn does live streaming. 00:28:40.776 --> 00:28:42.306 Like I'm gonna be doing YouTube. 00:28:42.786 --> 00:28:45.306 Have you seen anyone do this or have you done any of this stuff? 00:28:45.311 --> 00:28:47.256 Or you, or, let me ask the question differently. 00:28:47.256 --> 00:28:49.536 Do you ever speak in town, like at a Yes. 00:28:49.746 --> 00:28:50.376 How do you get 00:28:50.376 --> 00:28:50.556 those 00:28:50.556 --> 00:28:51.096 Kurt: gigs? 00:28:51.846 --> 00:28:54.576 So let's go one step further. 00:28:54.666 --> 00:28:58.716 I wanted to be a speaker before I wanted to be a WordPress agency owner. 00:28:59.136 --> 00:29:02.166 So I paid the money, I made the investment. 00:29:02.166 --> 00:29:05.586 I became a a John Maxwell certified leadership coach and 00:29:05.586 --> 00:29:06.726 trainer, and all those things. 00:29:07.146 --> 00:29:09.666 So I got the little piece of paper that hangs on the wall somewhere. 00:29:10.236 --> 00:29:11.576 And, And I really enjoy it. 00:29:11.766 --> 00:29:15.456 the thing that I found though is that paid speaking gigs, you know, the ones 00:29:15.456 --> 00:29:19.086 that make mortgage payments and car payments and things, they're not as easy 00:29:19.086 --> 00:29:20.586 to come by as people think they are. 00:29:20.826 --> 00:29:25.626 You know, you gotta be really good looking or really funny or really 00:29:25.626 --> 00:29:27.126 popular from some other source. 00:29:27.126 --> 00:29:27.636 I think. 00:29:28.026 --> 00:29:31.956 So, and I also have this weird thing where I, I really like to pay 00:29:31.956 --> 00:29:33.666 it forward with younger audiences. 00:29:33.816 --> 00:29:37.596 And so I really like, like the young, like the early twenties groups. 00:29:37.626 --> 00:29:38.976 I like the, I like the vibe. 00:29:39.426 --> 00:29:44.326 So, so I speak at the community college, the high school here in town. 00:29:44.726 --> 00:29:47.906 I have a big background in automotive and motorcycles and marine. 00:29:48.176 --> 00:29:52.166 So I talk at the STEM and CTE programs at the high school and college. 00:29:53.036 --> 00:29:56.906 And then I also volunteer with the college age group at church just because. 00:29:57.371 --> 00:30:01.361 I like to pay it forward that way, but then you'll hear the, there's a pretty 00:30:01.361 --> 00:30:04.571 consistent theme in all of that, and that is that none of those things really 00:30:04.571 --> 00:30:06.911 put money in my bank account, you know? 00:30:06.971 --> 00:30:12.741 And so then, I've had a couple, I spoke for Marine Max, and this is a weird one. 00:30:12.741 --> 00:30:12.801 I. 00:30:13.386 --> 00:30:16.386 Marine Max is like the biggest boat retailer in the country. 00:30:16.386 --> 00:30:18.936 And they said, Hey, we're gonna be at the show in Las Vegas and we'd 00:30:18.936 --> 00:30:20.226 like to hire you as a speaker. 00:30:20.316 --> 00:30:23.016 And then I said, well, okay, yeah, I charge this much for 00:30:23.016 --> 00:30:24.276 a daily rate plus travel. 00:30:24.546 --> 00:30:25.656 And they said Sold. 00:30:25.926 --> 00:30:26.256 Right. 00:30:26.256 --> 00:30:29.166 Which is the sure sign that that number's way too low. 00:30:29.171 --> 00:30:29.331 Mm-hmm. 00:30:29.471 --> 00:30:34.511 In the Harley Davidson space, I know of one guy, he charges $10,000 a day 00:30:34.511 --> 00:30:39.551 plus travel and he gets two suites on the top floor of every hotel. 00:30:39.551 --> 00:30:41.801 He stays in one for him and one for his wife. 00:30:42.221 --> 00:30:46.571 And they continue to hire him to do that. 00:30:47.081 --> 00:30:50.201 And I think to myself, he can't be that good at it. 00:30:50.741 --> 00:30:53.591 when I worked for another company in the power sports world, you 00:30:53.591 --> 00:30:55.781 guys could look at my LinkedIn to figure out who this might be. 00:30:56.201 --> 00:31:01.481 Here I was a certified speaker on staff in leadership and they hired some lady 00:31:01.481 --> 00:31:04.541 and paid her 10 grand for the afternoon to come and talk to us about leadership. 00:31:05.081 --> 00:31:07.871 And I was like, hello, you pay me a salary. 00:31:07.871 --> 00:31:08.471 I work here. 00:31:08.471 --> 00:31:09.791 I could run this workshop. 00:31:10.131 --> 00:31:10.191 I. 00:31:10.731 --> 00:31:13.431 But these big companies, they wanna bring in a strange face. 00:31:13.431 --> 00:31:16.401 They, they want to, they want to pass the liability off. 00:31:16.401 --> 00:31:18.321 They don't want someone internal to do things. 00:31:18.771 --> 00:31:21.081 And so that was hard for me to come to grips with. 00:31:21.351 --> 00:31:24.351 So then I had to come down to, well then how do I market myself? 00:31:24.651 --> 00:31:27.321 I put myself down as a speaker on my personal website. 00:31:27.321 --> 00:31:31.341 I joined a thing called Gig Salad, which helps you find speaking gigs. 00:31:31.701 --> 00:31:36.321 But I think Toby, I, people are gonna tell me my answer's wrong, 00:31:36.591 --> 00:31:37.941 but I think you still need. 00:31:38.736 --> 00:31:42.126 Like a Gary Vaynerchuk would say, you need to put your best stuff out first, 00:31:42.126 --> 00:31:47.106 free and get a couple of samples and, and get a couple of, a couple of recordings. 00:31:47.106 --> 00:31:50.436 Couple, couple, live action photos from, from an event. 00:31:51.021 --> 00:31:52.431 And then you got something to market. 00:31:53.591 --> 00:31:56.081 you didn't mention book, write a book. 00:31:56.561 --> 00:32:01.331 Oh, I did write books, but that's, so I wrote a book on leadership ta 00:32:01.601 --> 00:32:05.641 and I wrote a book on, how to run a better service department in the 00:32:05.641 --> 00:32:07.591 automotive and power sports space. 00:32:07.981 --> 00:32:11.551 That book is what changed the total direction of the 00:32:11.551 --> 00:32:12.841 success I had in the space. 00:32:13.531 --> 00:32:16.411 But that's, I didn't go to college so. 00:32:16.846 --> 00:32:19.696 Like, some people could say, you know, well, I graduated from 00:32:19.696 --> 00:32:22.576 Yale, or I graduated from Harvard and I did this and I did that. 00:32:22.576 --> 00:32:26.836 Well, I, I don't have that to say so, so now I say, well, after I published 00:32:26.836 --> 00:32:30.586 that book in the automotive space, then people go, he published a book, right? 00:32:30.586 --> 00:32:31.336 He's so smart. 00:32:31.756 --> 00:32:36.376 And then, two things, and, and these are like secrets I tell people 00:32:36.376 --> 00:32:37.786 all the time, it's not a secret. 00:32:38.166 --> 00:32:41.076 as soon as you publish a book, people stop asking where you went to school. 00:32:41.466 --> 00:32:43.386 The other thing is, as soon as you. 00:32:43.836 --> 00:32:46.176 Start your own agency or start your own business. 00:32:46.686 --> 00:32:49.236 Nobody cares about where you went to school or how you got trained. 00:32:49.776 --> 00:32:52.596 All they care about is what services can you provide. 00:32:52.596 --> 00:32:54.666 Will it be done on time and how much will it cost? 00:32:55.176 --> 00:32:56.046 Nobody. 00:32:56.046 --> 00:32:59.736 After I started Manano Nomas, nobody has ever asked me, how did 00:32:59.736 --> 00:33:01.296 you train yourself to do all this? 00:33:01.296 --> 00:33:02.856 Like, right, doesn't matter. 00:33:03.186 --> 00:33:03.966 This is what I do. 00:33:03.996 --> 00:33:06.066 This is how long it's gonna take, it's how much it's gonna cost you. 00:33:06.516 --> 00:33:09.856 And no one's asked me about backing that up since, so maybe 00:33:09.856 --> 00:33:12.496 that's why those no-code SAS guys get ahead because they go. 00:33:13.126 --> 00:33:14.926 Yeah, you got a pain point. 00:33:15.016 --> 00:33:16.066 I got a solution. 00:33:16.066 --> 00:33:17.476 It's gonna cost you this much. 00:33:18.166 --> 00:33:19.666 Toby: It's an interesting thought. 00:33:19.716 --> 00:33:23.136 I mean it is, particularly if you're new to coding. 00:33:23.196 --> 00:33:27.846 'cause there's a lot of fear right now that you're not gonna have a job coding. 00:33:27.846 --> 00:33:27.906 Yeah. 00:33:27.996 --> 00:33:33.546 Your job might be knowing the AI marketplace, like we use Elle for this. 00:33:33.546 --> 00:33:35.141 They put the database here and da da. 00:33:35.191 --> 00:33:37.711 Kurt: I think there's gonna be a big future for experienced 00:33:37.711 --> 00:33:39.421 people in debugging, coding. 00:33:40.291 --> 00:33:40.561 Toby: Yeah. 00:33:40.561 --> 00:33:43.741 Well that, so I think earlier you're like, who's gonna do the work? 00:33:43.981 --> 00:33:47.071 Whoever has the skills and is willing or maybe, yeah. 00:33:47.071 --> 00:33:47.281 I like, I. 00:33:48.586 --> 00:33:53.146 I, AI is so bad at that thing you talked about earlier, like, 00:33:53.686 --> 00:33:55.156 yeah, now we have three folders. 00:33:55.156 --> 00:33:56.206 They all do the same thing. 00:33:56.206 --> 00:33:58.336 Like that's what AI does for you. 00:33:58.336 --> 00:34:01.246 Like in addition to making a fully functioning app, it just 00:34:01.306 --> 00:34:03.496 builds all this crap with it. 00:34:03.625 --> 00:34:03.745 yeah. 00:34:03.745 --> 00:34:05.935 And you to date it, I mean. 00:34:06.520 --> 00:34:08.801 The, like I said, I just built something the other day and 00:34:08.801 --> 00:34:09.821 here's where it got caught up. 00:34:10.150 --> 00:34:13.000 It had like a mostly functioning, finally I got it pulling in the 00:34:13.000 --> 00:34:14.890 rest API from a headless WordPress. 00:34:15.130 --> 00:34:17.620 And then I was like, okay, add a search box. 00:34:17.860 --> 00:34:21.071 And it like went berserk, broke it, and I went through like 10 00:34:21.071 --> 00:34:22.900 iterations trying to fix it. 00:34:22.900 --> 00:34:26.140 And finally I was like, just roll back to 10 versions ago. 00:34:26.170 --> 00:34:28.031 'cause we're not gonna do a search today. 00:34:28.565 --> 00:34:28.991 Kurt: Yeah, yeah. 00:34:29.140 --> 00:34:30.491 I'll forego that one this time. 00:34:31.180 --> 00:34:33.250 But that, I find that so interesting because. 00:34:34.076 --> 00:34:37.106 Just this week I was in a client's website. 00:34:37.106 --> 00:34:38.276 Now I didn't build it. 00:34:38.276 --> 00:34:39.386 I did not build it. 00:34:39.416 --> 00:34:44.396 I'm just a consultant helping them get to the, to the launchpad and they said, well, 00:34:44.396 --> 00:34:48.806 hey, and they're using the Elementor Hello theme, which is not my theme of choice. 00:34:48.806 --> 00:34:51.026 I'm not saying it's bad, I just don't have a lot of experience. 00:34:51.026 --> 00:34:51.266 It's the most 00:34:51.266 --> 00:34:53.005 Toby: popular theme in wordpress.org. 00:34:53.726 --> 00:34:53.786 Kurt: Yeah. 00:34:53.786 --> 00:34:56.996 I don't, I don't have, I don't have anything negative to say about it. 00:34:57.001 --> 00:34:57.110 Mm-hmm. 00:34:57.116 --> 00:34:59.006 I'm just not super familiar with it. 00:34:59.156 --> 00:35:01.076 And they said, Hey. 00:35:01.611 --> 00:35:05.451 when Lifter LMS shows this course card, it has all this information on here. 00:35:05.661 --> 00:35:07.100 We don't want all this information on here. 00:35:07.100 --> 00:35:08.270 We wanna take this thing out. 00:35:08.631 --> 00:35:10.431 And I was like, well, that's not really an option. 00:35:10.431 --> 00:35:13.580 There's no tick box for that, but we could get rid of that with custom CSS. 00:35:13.671 --> 00:35:15.141 And they're like, say no more. 00:35:15.141 --> 00:35:15.711 Have at it. 00:35:15.711 --> 00:35:16.250 And I was like, I. 00:35:16.461 --> 00:35:16.941 Okay. 00:35:17.000 --> 00:35:18.471 And I'm thinking probably take you 20 minutes. 00:35:18.861 --> 00:35:20.151 dude, I'm, I'm so embarrassed. 00:35:20.211 --> 00:35:21.961 I was like, display. 00:35:22.020 --> 00:35:24.031 None this, Nope. 00:35:24.031 --> 00:35:24.696 Display none. 00:35:24.796 --> 00:35:26.535 Not sure that display none. 00:35:26.566 --> 00:35:26.856 Yeah. 00:35:26.875 --> 00:35:28.591 Let try this class name. 00:35:28.830 --> 00:35:30.631 And I was trying everything that I could think of. 00:35:30.720 --> 00:35:31.470 And it wasn't working. 00:35:31.470 --> 00:35:31.981 It wasn't working. 00:35:31.981 --> 00:35:32.611 It wasn't working. 00:35:32.970 --> 00:35:33.720 And then. 00:35:34.131 --> 00:35:36.370 I tried, oh, let's, let's try this. 00:35:36.421 --> 00:35:39.781 I think they call 'em variables, but I called it important, you know? 00:35:39.931 --> 00:35:40.261 Yeah. 00:35:40.681 --> 00:35:40.981 Mm-hmm. 00:35:41.701 --> 00:35:44.821 Because I kept looking at the code and the chrome inspector and I'm 00:35:44.821 --> 00:35:48.331 going, it keeps saying, like, when I say display none, it keeps crossing 00:35:48.331 --> 00:35:49.471 it out like I'm not doing it. 00:35:49.741 --> 00:35:49.951 Yep. 00:35:49.951 --> 00:35:51.451 I'm like, I'm telling you to do it. 00:35:51.481 --> 00:35:52.831 I am telling you to do this. 00:35:53.311 --> 00:35:56.270 And, it took a lot more than 20 minutes Uhhuh, and I couldn't charge her the 20. 00:35:56.270 --> 00:35:56.361 Right. 00:35:56.721 --> 00:35:57.861 I couldn't charge her my real time. 00:35:58.941 --> 00:36:00.500 Newsflash for people that are listening. 00:36:00.810 --> 00:36:04.620 you shouldn't charge your customers for the time that you are educating yourself. 00:36:06.300 --> 00:36:07.290 At least I don't think so. 00:36:07.550 --> 00:36:09.170 so I charge like real time, right? 00:36:09.170 --> 00:36:10.640 But now I'm like, now I'm going negative. 00:36:10.760 --> 00:36:12.470 Right now I'm going negative, trying to figure this thing out. 00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:17.540 So I put in the, the important and all of a sudden one thing went away, 00:36:17.540 --> 00:36:18.680 but the other thing didn't go away. 00:36:18.680 --> 00:36:21.950 But they didn't really care about the other thing, so I was like, good enough. 00:36:22.400 --> 00:36:22.970 Right, right. 00:36:22.970 --> 00:36:23.450 Good enough. 00:36:23.450 --> 00:36:23.810 Boom. 00:36:24.190 --> 00:36:24.880 we're done here. 00:36:25.150 --> 00:36:26.260 But that's like, I. 00:36:26.650 --> 00:36:32.500 Here we are talking about AI and no code and, and like I'm 00:36:32.500 --> 00:36:34.000 not a coding genius, right? 00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:35.980 I'm jumping into someone else's website. 00:36:35.980 --> 00:36:37.540 Some, something someone else built. 00:36:37.940 --> 00:36:39.770 I got a theme I'm not familiar with. 00:36:40.010 --> 00:36:42.800 I'm trying all the tricks I do with Sky Pilot and with 00:36:42.800 --> 00:36:44.570 bricks and with, and nothing. 00:36:44.600 --> 00:36:47.540 I'm putting in works and I don't know why the theme's disregarding 00:36:47.540 --> 00:36:48.590 everything I'm saying to do. 00:36:48.680 --> 00:36:53.090 And I go, you know, exclamation point important and then it boom. 00:36:53.615 --> 00:36:54.185 It works. 00:36:54.545 --> 00:36:57.065 how many people are gonna know that, right? 00:36:57.425 --> 00:37:01.355 Or how many people are gonna go into AI and say, give me some custom CSS 00:37:01.355 --> 00:37:03.125 to make this disappear from my screen. 00:37:03.425 --> 00:37:05.045 And then it's gonna say, put this in. 00:37:05.255 --> 00:37:06.215 Well, that's not gonna work. 00:37:06.725 --> 00:37:07.655 Okay, well then put this in. 00:37:07.835 --> 00:37:08.135 Right? 00:37:08.135 --> 00:37:08.285 Yeah. 00:37:08.285 --> 00:37:08.855 It's not gonna work. 00:37:09.425 --> 00:37:12.445 Toby: Something, something funny that we, we were talking about, I 00:37:12.445 --> 00:37:14.395 was talking with someone about ai. 00:37:14.905 --> 00:37:19.585 even if, it gives you the, like, it won't get, it won't say no. 00:37:20.800 --> 00:37:21.580 And this is the problem. 00:37:21.580 --> 00:37:22.835 It'll, it'll make It's the hallucination. 00:37:22.835 --> 00:37:22.995 Yeah. 00:37:22.995 --> 00:37:23.275 It, yeah. 00:37:23.560 --> 00:37:25.750 It'll, you're like, it, like, Hey, can I, can you fix this for me? 00:37:25.750 --> 00:37:26.380 It'll say, sure. 00:37:26.380 --> 00:37:29.020 Do this, and, and it, you'll do that. 00:37:29.020 --> 00:37:30.100 And it'll be like, it didn't work. 00:37:30.100 --> 00:37:31.090 And they'll say, oh, sorry. 00:37:31.090 --> 00:37:31.270 Yeah. 00:37:31.270 --> 00:37:31.660 That's right. 00:37:31.660 --> 00:37:31.960 That's wrong. 00:37:31.960 --> 00:37:32.140 Here. 00:37:32.140 --> 00:37:32.800 Do this. 00:37:33.160 --> 00:37:35.110 It, it's incapable of saying no. 00:37:35.260 --> 00:37:35.800 Like, yeah. 00:37:37.210 --> 00:37:38.980 Kurt: Well, it does say no when you ask it questions. 00:37:38.980 --> 00:37:40.660 It doesn't want to answer by the code. 00:37:40.900 --> 00:37:41.350 For code. 00:37:41.350 --> 00:37:44.590 It's always gonna say, it's always gonna say, yeah, I can fix that for you. 00:37:44.590 --> 00:37:44.950 Toby: Right. 00:37:45.850 --> 00:37:45.852 Kurt: And then. 00:37:46.195 --> 00:37:47.395 It's not fixing it for you. 00:37:47.485 --> 00:37:47.935 Right. 00:37:47.995 --> 00:37:52.725 I've been through this so many times now with, with clients and you know, 00:37:53.115 --> 00:37:55.305 in a way it's kind of cool 'cause they always gotta come back to you 00:37:55.305 --> 00:37:56.685 and go, oh, I tried this on my own. 00:37:56.685 --> 00:37:57.165 It's not working. 00:37:57.165 --> 00:37:57.825 Uhhuh, can you fix this? 00:37:57.825 --> 00:37:59.205 And we go, yeah, we can fix that for you. 00:37:59.655 --> 00:38:03.375 But then you have to ask yourself, you know, why didn't they just 00:38:03.375 --> 00:38:05.985 come to me in the first place, even if they're not my client. 00:38:05.985 --> 00:38:09.255 I think that, like I'm on the show with you. 00:38:09.645 --> 00:38:12.525 I do a show with Lifter, LMS, I do a show with WP Tonic. 00:38:12.975 --> 00:38:14.535 I have my own podcast called Manana. 00:38:14.535 --> 00:38:15.015 Nomas. 00:38:15.345 --> 00:38:17.535 Like people know who I am. 00:38:17.925 --> 00:38:22.365 So why did you try 17 other choices before ringing me up or sending 00:38:22.365 --> 00:38:23.655 me an email asking for help? 00:38:23.745 --> 00:38:28.035 And it's 'cause they assume I'm at like $600 an hour for 00:38:28.035 --> 00:38:29.010 an agency rate or something. 00:38:29.010 --> 00:38:29.250 Right. 00:38:29.265 --> 00:38:30.135 And it's just not true. 00:38:30.135 --> 00:38:34.635 'cause you and I both know we, you and I, we can't run our agencies at those 00:38:34.635 --> 00:38:36.225 rates and think we're gonna keep clients. 00:38:36.315 --> 00:38:36.615 Toby: Right? 00:38:37.095 --> 00:38:37.305 Yep. 00:38:37.545 --> 00:38:37.665 You know? 00:38:38.190 --> 00:38:38.250 Yeah. 00:38:39.060 --> 00:38:40.350 Yeah, that's probably true. 00:38:40.620 --> 00:38:43.140 yeah, if they thought it was cheap, they probably would've called you. 00:38:43.170 --> 00:38:45.480 Or if they thought it was not cheap, cheap, iss probably the wrong word. 00:38:45.480 --> 00:38:47.280 If they thought it was gonna be a couple hundred or even 300, 00:38:47.280 --> 00:38:48.240 maybe they would've called you. 00:38:48.630 --> 00:38:48.990 Kurt: Yeah. 00:38:48.990 --> 00:38:51.210 If it was gonna be affordable, you know, if it was gonna be 00:38:51.210 --> 00:38:52.830 within a, within a budget concept. 00:38:53.100 --> 00:38:57.960 And I think, I think in some cases, because of being online all the time, 00:38:57.960 --> 00:38:59.700 being live all the time, I think that. 00:39:00.180 --> 00:39:03.540 Sometimes heightens the expectation that, oh, he's gonna be super 00:39:03.540 --> 00:39:05.310 expensive, or we can't afford that. 00:39:05.730 --> 00:39:06.210 no. 00:39:06.750 --> 00:39:09.990 It's like, it's like everyone assumes Codeable is gonna be expensive, 00:39:10.050 --> 00:39:13.410 but then you go to Codeable and they're like, Hey, we get three bids. 00:39:13.410 --> 00:39:14.940 You get the average of the three bids. 00:39:14.940 --> 00:39:18.900 It is what it is, and it comes out to like $80 an hour to have something done. 00:39:19.260 --> 00:39:19.380 Mm-hmm. 00:39:19.620 --> 00:39:19.710 Yeah. 00:39:19.710 --> 00:39:21.030 It's, that's a smoking hot deal. 00:39:21.030 --> 00:39:22.290 Jump on there, get something handled. 00:39:22.770 --> 00:39:24.270 Toby: Is co ball still hiring? 00:39:24.270 --> 00:39:25.350 Last I, last I checked. 00:39:25.350 --> 00:39:27.750 They weren't doing, they weren't accepting new applicants. 00:39:27.750 --> 00:39:28.050 Do you know? 00:39:28.140 --> 00:39:29.580 Kurt: I don't think they're hiring. 00:39:29.580 --> 00:39:33.030 I think they have, I think they have all the people they need. 00:39:33.240 --> 00:39:34.170 Toby: Yeah, that's what I thought. 00:39:34.680 --> 00:39:35.700 Because that's, that's a pla. 00:39:35.730 --> 00:39:35.880 Yeah. 00:39:35.880 --> 00:39:36.420 You go and you. 00:39:36.900 --> 00:39:37.800 Say, Hey, build this for me. 00:39:37.800 --> 00:39:40.290 And then they have a team of freelancers, right? 00:39:40.470 --> 00:39:40.920 Kurt: Yeah. 00:39:41.040 --> 00:39:41.370 Yeah. 00:39:41.370 --> 00:39:43.450 And then, it's like a blind audition. 00:39:43.505 --> 00:39:43.925 Mm-hmm. 00:39:44.005 --> 00:39:45.165 People bid on the task. 00:39:45.265 --> 00:39:45.685 Mm-hmm. 00:39:45.770 --> 00:39:49.510 And they put a dollar amount in there, and then it averages the bid amount out, and 00:39:49.510 --> 00:39:52.060 then whoever, then you choose it, right. 00:39:52.060 --> 00:39:56.560 Based on this is the set fee based out of these three sources, and then 00:39:56.860 --> 00:39:59.740 you pick the source and they do it for the fee that was the average. 00:40:00.460 --> 00:40:00.550 Toby: Hmm. 00:40:00.550 --> 00:40:03.300 I actually think, If you're getting started in the industry, and maybe 00:40:03.300 --> 00:40:07.560 it's an avenue for me to pursue too, but like, Upwork or, you know, 00:40:07.560 --> 00:40:12.150 there's all these places where like people go to buy the work and like, 00:40:12.570 --> 00:40:13.710 I'm just thinking out loud here. 00:40:13.770 --> 00:40:16.350 So, let's say I did a project that was. 00:40:16.720 --> 00:40:21.550 Relatively easy on Upwork, and I got underpaid for it, but it led 00:40:21.550 --> 00:40:23.440 to a hosting contract or something. 00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:26.500 Like I could see that work, math working out potentially. 00:40:26.500 --> 00:40:26.890 You know, 00:40:28.090 --> 00:40:31.510 Kurt: there's so many of those things, so, so there used to be one called 00:40:31.570 --> 00:40:35.980 e Lance and then Freelance, and then Upwork and Fiverr and all those. 00:40:35.980 --> 00:40:40.630 And generally Upwork and Fiverr seem to be these markets that are just. 00:40:40.950 --> 00:40:42.285 Driving to the bottom right? 00:40:42.285 --> 00:40:42.565 Mm-hmm. 00:40:42.645 --> 00:40:43.770 Just a race to the bottom. 00:40:44.130 --> 00:40:47.280 They want a task done, and it's the cheapest one is gonna get the bid. 00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:50.040 and I really don't like to play in those markets. 00:40:50.310 --> 00:40:54.540 I mean, I just don't because it, it just doesn't f the mentality of the 00:40:54.540 --> 00:40:57.960 client doesn't fit the mentality, what I'm looking for as an agency. 00:40:58.260 --> 00:41:00.480 So I kind of try and stay away from that. 00:41:00.660 --> 00:41:02.870 But, I've also noticed. 00:41:03.155 --> 00:41:06.185 So I had a client I was doing a big project for, and they were 00:41:06.185 --> 00:41:08.315 supposed to supply a ton of content. 00:41:08.585 --> 00:41:09.935 And I said, okay, great. 00:41:09.935 --> 00:41:11.345 You know, so where's this content at? 00:41:11.345 --> 00:41:12.215 'cause I've built it. 00:41:12.215 --> 00:41:13.085 So where's your content? 00:41:13.265 --> 00:41:14.495 And the content wasn't coming. 00:41:14.495 --> 00:41:15.365 Wasn't coming, wasn't coming. 00:41:15.365 --> 00:41:17.735 And finally I was like, you said you had content. 00:41:17.735 --> 00:41:18.515 Where's your content? 00:41:18.665 --> 00:41:22.000 Like I was, you know, you, because everything I do that's, 00:41:22.055 --> 00:41:23.315 you said it based on a calendar. 00:41:23.405 --> 00:41:25.565 You know, I, I tell people we have deadlines. 00:41:26.015 --> 00:41:26.855 I have a deadline. 00:41:26.855 --> 00:41:28.505 And newsflash, you have a deadline. 00:41:28.505 --> 00:41:30.365 You're the customer, but you still have a deadline. 00:41:30.725 --> 00:41:30.845 Yep. 00:41:30.875 --> 00:41:33.985 And, They were way, and they, then they finally confessed, oh, I've got 00:41:33.985 --> 00:41:37.495 this person, you know, writing the course for me that I hired from Fiverr. 00:41:37.555 --> 00:41:41.575 And when I got, it was a series of PDFs they wanted me to put into their 00:41:41.575 --> 00:41:43.375 website as as courses and lessons. 00:41:43.675 --> 00:41:45.745 I said, I can't even put this stuff on your website. 00:41:45.775 --> 00:41:48.145 I, in good conscience, I can't do this. 00:41:48.445 --> 00:41:52.465 I've already edited for free the first three lessons I said, 00:41:52.465 --> 00:41:54.715 but this content is so poor. 00:41:54.750 --> 00:42:00.120 Yeah, unless you're paying me, I cannot continue to edit this work, but I 00:42:00.120 --> 00:42:02.370 cannot put my name on this anywhere. 00:42:02.370 --> 00:42:06.750 Like you, I can't have website powered by Ana Nomas or any of that on your project 00:42:06.750 --> 00:42:09.540 because yeah, this content is so horrible. 00:42:09.990 --> 00:42:10.590 It's interesting. 00:42:10.650 --> 00:42:15.930 Toby: so I'm selling, our house, and I'm working with a realtor. 00:42:16.865 --> 00:42:19.415 And they had me fill out a Google form that was like, tell us about 00:42:19.415 --> 00:42:22.165 your, your house and your experience in your house, and dah, dah, dah. 00:42:22.345 --> 00:42:24.115 So I filled it out, took like five or 10 minutes. 00:42:24.235 --> 00:42:27.475 and then the next day they sent me something that was so clearly chat, 00:42:27.475 --> 00:42:30.475 GPT, like just this garbage writeup. 00:42:30.565 --> 00:42:30.595 I. 00:42:32.855 --> 00:42:33.515 Kurt: You're like, thank you. 00:42:33.515 --> 00:42:34.565 I don't want to use you anymore. 00:42:35.535 --> 00:42:38.085 Toby: well, I'm already on the hook, but like, but I got it. 00:42:38.085 --> 00:42:39.135 I had to write it. 00:42:39.195 --> 00:42:42.255 I went back to GPT, I was like, let's rewrite this. 00:42:42.255 --> 00:42:44.865 My realtor couldn't figure it out, you know? 00:42:45.475 --> 00:42:45.565 it's 00:42:45.565 --> 00:42:46.015 Kurt: hard. 00:42:46.015 --> 00:42:46.735 Toby: Mm-hmm. 00:42:46.990 --> 00:42:47.440 Kurt: It's hard. 00:42:48.805 --> 00:42:49.165 All right. 00:42:49.165 --> 00:42:52.255 So somehow or another we managed to work AI into just about every 00:42:52.255 --> 00:42:53.785 segment of our, of our talk today. 00:42:53.790 --> 00:42:53.830 Like, 00:42:53.835 --> 00:42:55.075 Toby: like Matt Mullenweg said, 00:42:57.235 --> 00:42:59.605 what's the future of WordPress ai? 00:43:01.950 --> 00:43:03.300 Kurt: I guess we're gonna have to figure it out. 00:43:03.450 --> 00:43:03.660 Toby: Yeah, 00:43:04.560 --> 00:43:05.610 Kurt: we're gonna have to figure it out. 00:43:07.770 --> 00:43:08.520 Anything else? 00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:09.070 no. 00:43:09.130 --> 00:43:09.880 Thank you so much time. 00:43:09.910 --> 00:43:10.180 Yeah. 00:43:11.080 --> 00:43:13.420 So we're gonna have to wrap this one up and we're gonna have to save our 00:43:13.420 --> 00:43:15.760 talk about manage WP for another day. 00:43:15.760 --> 00:43:16.240 I think. 00:43:16.390 --> 00:43:17.140 Toby: I think you're right. 00:43:17.200 --> 00:43:17.530 Which like, 00:43:17.800 --> 00:43:20.590 Kurt: that's the cliffhanger that gets people to come back to another episode. 00:43:20.590 --> 00:43:21.580 Toby: We have a whole bit. 00:43:21.790 --> 00:43:24.250 the question is, is managed WP dying? 00:43:25.045 --> 00:43:25.765 For next time. 00:43:27.505 --> 00:43:28.435 Kurt: Peace out folks. 00:43:28.435 --> 00:43:29.005 I'm Kurt. 00:43:29.005 --> 00:43:29.725 This is Toby. 00:43:30.055 --> 00:43:32.125 Have yourselves a wonderful, wonderful day. 00:43:32.125 --> 00:43:33.295 We'll see you in the next episode.