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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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I have an old friend here, Carla Brams.

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She runs Veon Rider, which means
wave rider in a very magical part

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of Germany called the Udin Vault,
which literally means odin's forest.

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And when you go in there, it really
does actually look like odin's forest.

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It's an area that is a little bit occult.

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It, it's, it's one of those places where
you feel the, the veil between the world

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is a little bit thin, and in fact, the
original Frankenstein's castle is in

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there which a lot of people don't know.

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And behind that castle, there's a, an
area of forest that's been recorded

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with all sorts of strange activity by
various scientists and people record

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all sorts of strange phenomena there.

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And it's also, of course,
stunningly beautiful.

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And it's these mountains that
overlook the Valley of the Rhine.

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And I met Carla when I first
started working in Germany.

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And together we did a project with
German television with the autistic

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son of a, of a, of a friend of Carla's.

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Carla already had a very
good and established equine

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assisted practice going.

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And in the course of this, we.

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Have been sort of working
together on and off ever since.

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And she really has her own way of going.

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Which I think a lot of us can learn
from, and not just confined to the

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work with special needs children or
so on, but very much looking at other

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areas, including the area of grief.

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So I think this is something
which we can all learn from.

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Carla, thank you so much
for coming on the show.

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Please tell us a bit about who
you are and what your practice

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is and how you got there.

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Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

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Thanks Rupert for the introduction.

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You know, I always think
meeting people is no no sofa.

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What is the English word?

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No

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Rupert Isaacson: coincidence.

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Karla Brahms: No coincidence.

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Yeah.

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And it was just magic to meet
you in 2019 making the, the film

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about Emil and changing the life
of so many people with our work.

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Well, I got here.

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I, I was raised here in the den world and
I never thought that I would come back.

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But obviously life had other plans.

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I'm working with horses.

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For more than 30 years now.

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And I built a little paradise for my
horses, my family and me here in Lumpen.

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He in the val near
Heidelberg and Mannheim.

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And I always are outside with
the horses with the kids.

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For 25 years.

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I was walking every day with
a group of four kids out in

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the forest with the horses.

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And what you said, this this
powerful spiritual vibration in

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the al I can feel it every day.

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So we have a massive stone
arrangements in the forest.

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They are often the, that I often
visit with the horses and the kids.

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And it's just not only the healing
of the horses and the healing of our

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presence, but also the healing of
the nature that I use for my work.

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Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
it's, it's so refreshing.

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I, I remember when I went and did
my first training for the tower, you

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know, the for tower in, in Germany,
which is the, for those listeners who

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don't speak Germany, you, they're,
they're, they're the government.

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Wing of therapeutic riding there.

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And it's great of course that
the Germans really support

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it at the governmental level.

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You know, many of us, for example,
when we're working in say the USA

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dream of that, however, it also comes
with a sort of bureaucratic cost.

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And I remember when we were doing
that first training, it was in

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another rather beautiful area
in the hills near Disseldorf.

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It was so regimented and it was
really kind of very arena based.

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And now we're going to do this,
and now the child should do that.

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And, and I remember, you know,
in horse boy, we have obviously

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this ethic of follow the child.

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And so if the kid wants to get down off
the horse 10 seconds after they've got

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up, well of course that's what you do.

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And you know, because we don't want this
to be stressful and we have, we have

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faith that the child will eventually, you

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Karla Brahms: know,

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Rupert Isaacson: find
their way with the horse.

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Karla Brahms: That was one, one moment
when, when we met and we talked about.

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My work and your work, it was
like, ah, yeah, that's it.

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Exactly.

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Exactly.

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And I was so, I was so glad because
I always thought, oh, I'm such

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an individual with my work in the
ator because no one does it my way.

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And I always thought I'm the, the exotic
teacher therapeutic riding teacher to

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hear that you were doing it the same way.

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That was so, ah, I was

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Rupert Isaacson: right.

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Because I mean, it's just Did you
ever meet a kid who didn't want

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to just go straight in the forest?

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I mean, you know, I mean, that's
what the human brain and nervous

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system is designed for to go into
the natural habitat of the human.

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And so if one is trying to
restore a nervous system Yeah.

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Which is effectively what we are doing,
surely it makes just perfect sense even

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if you didn't understand the neuroscience
to go where the organism wants to be.

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Right?

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Yep.

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If you, if you put a big cat in
a zoo with concrete and bars like

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they used to, what will it do?

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It will pace around.

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If you build a beautiful habitat and
you put enrichment in there, okay,

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the animal probably would rather be in
the wild, but it's a whole lot better.

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But we haven't really gotten there
enough with educational therapy.

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And I remember in that, in that.

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Training I did this one lady.

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She said, ah, but if I have spent half
an hour getting no, she said 30 minutes,

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getting the horse ready for this child on
this child wants to get down immediately.

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This is a disrespect.

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I'm like, lady, given the wrong job.

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You, you, you should be teaching
adults who are motivated to ride, learn

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to ride horses, how to ride horses.

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What are you doing working with
nonverbal autistic children who, who

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can't follow instruction and don't
understand what you're even talking about?

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Like, why are you in this job?

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Because it must be so
frustrating for you and for them.

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So yeah, when I, when I discovered
you there, and of course our wonderful

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friends, GI and Henrik Bergoff,
who've been on this show as well up

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there in Munster Land in Germany,
who understand completely the need

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of the child, the need of the human,
the need of the horse to be in nature

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Karla Brahms: and the need of humor.

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Rupert Isaacson: Say that again?

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Karla Brahms: The need of humor.

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Rupert Isaacson: The need of humor.

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Absolutely.

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Toilet humor constantly because the horse
is pooing and farting the entire time.

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Right.

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And what are you gonna do?

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Ignore it.

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It's.

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Ah, so yeah, I remember the
first time we came to you and

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falling in love with that forest.

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And I just want to paint a little
bit of a picture for viewers.

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So where Carla lives in a village that
is on the side of a mountain that's

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forested with pastures dotted around.

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And the, the paths out from her
stable, which of course is an open,

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stable with a cover so the horses
can come in and come out and they

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can be in the forest, they can be in
the field, they can be in the meadow.

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And then there are these tracks that
just sort of go off into wonderful land.

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And then the, the village
itself looks like something

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out of a, of a grims fairytale.

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You know, it's what they call
fuck work, you know, the, the

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old black and white houses with
the timber and all of this stuff.

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But of course, one of the things
we know about fairytales is

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what do fairytales teach us?

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They teach us that there, there
is also a dark side to life and we

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need to learn how to navigate that.

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Right?

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And that of course, I really do
think is the nature of your work.

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Can you talk us through
how you go about things?

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People are quite familiar with horse
boy and the way you and Horse Boy and

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ll invited work are, are not dissimilar.

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They're, they're pretty close,
but you very much have your own

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way and your own philosophy.

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Can you just talk us through.

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How you help people deal with,
some would say the dark side.

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Others would say the realities of
life in this fairy tale environment.

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Karla Brahms: Well, after I worked for
more than 25 years with the kids, my

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horses and me, we got older and I was
looking for a method that I can use

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these absolute amazing abilities from
the horses to read us, to read our

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emotions and to reflect them to us.

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I always thought horses are so much
more than animals we can use to ride on.

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They, they read us and they,
they connect with us in a way

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that is, is hard to describe.

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And a colleague of mine, she was
doing like systematic constellations

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with the horses where she used the
horses for parts of your inner is

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it, it's called unti in German.

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I don't know the English
word for it right now.

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So one horse represented the sadness.

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One horse represented the the
critic, the the c criticism.

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And, and she placed the horses, or
the, the client placed the horses in

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the arena the way it was suitable.

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And then there were.

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They got get loose and they
interact with one another, another.

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And I was so amazed how they reacted in
a way that that was not normal for them.

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I, I knew my horses, or I know my horses.

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I live with them for 24
hours, seven days a week.

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And, and they reacted in a way that was
really the connection of the client.

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And I was so amazed.

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I said, I want to make this, I want
to take this ability from the horses

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and, and connect it with my work with
the kids, with the, with the families.

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And then I was looking for a
method that that that did this,

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this connection with the horses.

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And then I found a consolation work.

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It's called NIG, neural Imaginative.

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K is creating, and this method uses
spontaneously drawn pictures that

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you draw with your non-dominant hand.

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So to connect the other
part of the brain that,

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Rupert Isaacson: so I would
draw with my left hand.

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You would give me a pencil

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Karla Brahms: if I, yes.

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If, if, if I would work for you with you.

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I would say we take two
pieces of paper, for example.

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And I often use these these
crayons, these Jackson crayons.

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Course, they, they have a powerful
color and you can easily draw with them.

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And, and the thing is, if you
draw with your non-dominant

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hand, nobody can draw nicely.

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And, and it takes this, this pressure to
make a nice picture of what you think.

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And then you, you get
the, the the order first.

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We, we clear what, what is
the problem, what is the, the

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thing you want, you work with.

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It's called RAs clear room.

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And even that clears a lot of things
for the client to see what, what

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is happening with the, why am I
here, why am I talking with you?

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What, what is the thing
that's confusing me?

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And then they get the, the the
order to draw maybe a picture of

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the problem really spontaneously.

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They can use the colors,
they can use everything.

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They are not, they don't have
a an order how to draw it.

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They, they just, it

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Rupert Isaacson: could be abstract.

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Karla Brahms: It could be
abstract, it could be only colors.

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It could be only a sign, it could
be only a word and they have to do,

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draw it with a non-dominant hand.

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And then they get the, the
order to draw maybe a picture

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of how it is when it is better.

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Not even the goal were to go to.

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How does it look like?

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When it feels better?

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When it is better?

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And then they draw this picture.

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And with these pictures, you go in
connection with your whole body.

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So you lay them on the
ground and you stand on these

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pictures with your whole body.

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And then I ask questions,
how do you stand?

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How is your body feeling?

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Do you feel a part of the body really?

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Is there a stiffness or a pain?

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Is it getting cold?

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How are your feet standing?

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How is your breath?

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How is it going?

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How deep is it going?

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Is it rather thin or deep?

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And then the, the people are, are
getting connected with their body.

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I ask, where do you look at?

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Do you look inside?

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Do you look to a certain point?

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And are there feelings that coming
up when you stand on this picture?

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And then we talk about all these
body emotions, body experiences.

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And when they step off the picture,
they often have to shake a little bit.

00:14:34.364 --> 00:14:39.014
And then I, I invite them to go to the
next picture and stand on that picture.

00:14:39.524 --> 00:14:40.665
And how does it feel here?

00:14:40.694 --> 00:14:43.874
How does it feel standing on
the picture when it is better?

00:14:44.714 --> 00:14:49.094
And the thing is, the solution of
our problems always lies within us.

00:14:50.400 --> 00:14:54.660
We, we are always so much head.

00:14:56.100 --> 00:14:57.240
Our head is so important.

00:14:57.240 --> 00:15:01.469
Our thinking is so important that we
often forget to, to listen to our body.

00:15:01.560 --> 00:15:04.770
And our body always knows
the, the, the answer.

00:15:05.640 --> 00:15:11.579
And with these questions, I try to get
the people into feeling what their body

00:15:11.579 --> 00:15:13.380
is feeling, what their body tells them.

00:15:14.280 --> 00:15:19.680
And it always is the thing that they feel
a difference between the two pictures.

00:15:20.579 --> 00:15:23.849
And then comes the most important part.

00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:30.990
My, my my favorite part because we
introduce a so-called Mear position.

00:15:31.829 --> 00:15:36.270
Mear is when I work with children
and always tell them, if you have a

00:15:36.270 --> 00:15:42.689
superhero, a superhero that knows you,
that can help you, that can talk about

00:15:42.689 --> 00:15:45.000
you in a good way, who could that be?

00:15:46.949 --> 00:15:52.070
And when I work with, with grownups, I
ask them they should think about a, a

00:15:52.070 --> 00:15:58.190
person that is not really living, but
like the, the wise man in the forest

00:15:58.370 --> 00:16:02.330
or the, the, the old woman in the sea.

00:16:02.510 --> 00:16:03.500
Something like that.

00:16:03.830 --> 00:16:04.760
Rupert Isaacson: The mental figure.

00:16:04.940 --> 00:16:05.330
Yeah.

00:16:05.540 --> 00:16:06.260
Karla Brahms: Right, right.

00:16:06.770 --> 00:16:08.360
And then we choose a position.

00:16:08.360 --> 00:16:09.450
We take a a white.

00:16:09.990 --> 00:16:14.810
Piece of paper, and this is the
meta position, and we, we place it

00:16:14.810 --> 00:16:16.580
far away from the other pictures.

00:16:17.120 --> 00:16:20.030
And then the clients step
on that meta position.

00:16:20.210 --> 00:16:26.600
And when they are on the meta position, we
talk in the third person about the client.

00:16:27.980 --> 00:16:35.330
So for example, one kid to the, to the,
the Smart Fox for his meta position.

00:16:35.750 --> 00:16:40.220
And when he stood on the meta position,
I said, well, hello Smart Fox.

00:16:40.620 --> 00:16:43.900
Did you see he was let's call him Tom.

00:16:44.230 --> 00:16:47.050
Tom was painting the pictures
and he was stepping on then

00:16:47.050 --> 00:16:48.730
and had these body sensations.

00:16:49.120 --> 00:16:50.110
What did you see?

00:16:51.070 --> 00:16:58.420
Did you see that Tom had a special
feeling or did you see similarities?

00:16:58.420 --> 00:16:59.710
Did you see un

00:17:01.425 --> 00:17:02.055
Rupert Isaacson: differences?

00:17:02.175 --> 00:17:02.655
Karla Brahms: Differences?

00:17:02.655 --> 00:17:02.955
Right?

00:17:04.665 --> 00:17:11.685
And then we talk about the client in
the third person and, and he, the, the

00:17:11.685 --> 00:17:15.705
smart fox is telling what Tom should do.

00:17:15.705 --> 00:17:21.835
Maybe take another position for
the, from the pictures, maybe get

00:17:22.075 --> 00:17:24.475
on them in a, in a, in a second way.

00:17:24.775 --> 00:17:28.675
And so we, we start a process
with the dialogue between.

00:17:29.145 --> 00:17:32.860
The, the meta position and the
connect connected positions, the

00:17:32.860 --> 00:17:34.870
pictures on the, on the, on the floor.

00:17:36.130 --> 00:17:41.530
And by stepping on these pictures for a
second time, it always feels different.

00:17:41.665 --> 00:17:42.235
Different.

00:17:43.285 --> 00:17:48.145
And now I use the horses as
a company in this process.

00:17:48.265 --> 00:17:51.805
So they're just with them,
with us in the arena.

00:17:52.525 --> 00:17:58.285
And I'm always sure they know exactly
what is happening because the way

00:17:58.285 --> 00:18:04.765
they interact with a client with
a meta position that's so amazing.

00:18:05.755 --> 00:18:06.925
I tell you one story.

00:18:07.225 --> 00:18:12.425
I had a friend when I was, when I
was trying to, to to get used to this

00:18:12.425 --> 00:18:16.055
method and, and, and try to figure
out how can you use the horses.

00:18:16.295 --> 00:18:20.965
I asked friends and I asked mothers
of of my riding kids if they are,

00:18:21.505 --> 00:18:25.585
if they want to, to help me figure
out how that works, how I can

00:18:25.635 --> 00:18:27.345
interact with the horses and so on.

00:18:28.365 --> 00:18:29.835
And it was with a friend.

00:18:29.835 --> 00:18:33.555
She was standing on her, on her
problem and the horse was standing

00:18:33.555 --> 00:18:39.075
next to her and yawning, and
yawning and yawning all the time.

00:18:39.525 --> 00:18:42.945
And I asked her, do you have an idea
why your horse is yawning all the time?

00:18:43.425 --> 00:18:44.655
And she said, no.

00:18:44.955 --> 00:18:49.845
And when I asked her the, the body
sensations, it was all quite normal.

00:18:50.325 --> 00:18:52.695
Not very, very extraordinary.

00:18:54.285 --> 00:18:58.665
When this horse was yawning all that
time, I asked her I have an idea.

00:18:58.725 --> 00:18:59.745
Do you want to hear it?

00:18:59.805 --> 00:19:00.795
And she said, yes.

00:19:01.065 --> 00:19:05.715
And I said, could it be that
it connects with exhaustion?

00:19:05.775 --> 00:19:06.885
Are you exhausted?

00:19:07.545 --> 00:19:12.915
And then she started crying
because the horse showed her how

00:19:12.915 --> 00:19:15.405
exhausted she was in this problem.

00:19:15.405 --> 00:19:15.495
Right?

00:19:15.885 --> 00:19:17.205
It was a problem in her job.

00:19:18.585 --> 00:19:20.235
And that was so amazing.

00:19:20.775 --> 00:19:26.085
And things like that happen all the
time that the horses interact or show

00:19:26.535 --> 00:19:31.065
a more deeper way of looking at these
pictures, of looking at the process.

00:19:31.515 --> 00:19:36.975
And sometimes they even get,
take the, the the solution.

00:19:38.475 --> 00:19:45.885
So one time a client was like standing
on the, on the meta position and the

00:19:45.885 --> 00:19:50.805
horse moved one of the pictures away
and he said, now, now it makes sense.

00:19:52.395 --> 00:19:54.705
That was the, the
distance that was missing.

00:19:56.055 --> 00:19:56.865
Things like that.

00:19:57.285 --> 00:20:02.145
Or one client stood on the, on
the pictures and she said, oh,

00:20:02.145 --> 00:20:04.095
I feel I can go right away.

00:20:04.155 --> 00:20:05.535
I can start right away.

00:20:05.715 --> 00:20:08.415
And the horse was standing
in front of her like this.

00:20:08.970 --> 00:20:10.770
Really, really, really close.

00:20:11.100 --> 00:20:13.080
And I said, oh, what
does that test to mean?

00:20:13.080 --> 00:20:14.130
Do you have an idea?

00:20:14.580 --> 00:20:17.520
And she was laughing and said,
oh, maybe I shouldn't get the,

00:20:17.550 --> 00:20:20.190
the goal out of my vision.

00:20:21.000 --> 00:20:24.780
And then the horse stepped two, two
steps backward and made the, the,

00:20:24.810 --> 00:20:27.300
the path free so that she could go.

00:20:27.540 --> 00:20:32.790
And that was like, like always, they
always remind us to think a little

00:20:33.060 --> 00:20:35.670
deeper, to feel a little deeper.

00:20:36.270 --> 00:20:37.680
And that's so amazing.

00:20:38.640 --> 00:20:39.360
Rupert Isaacson: I agree with you.

00:20:39.360 --> 00:20:42.660
One of the things that's so interesting
about horses and all animals, of

00:20:42.660 --> 00:20:46.460
course but horses, I think because of
their relationship with us in terms

00:20:46.460 --> 00:20:51.860
of that they carry us and that they
have to get over this predator prey

00:20:52.700 --> 00:20:55.160
problem in order to interact with us.

00:20:56.060 --> 00:20:58.010
They can read our bodies.

00:20:58.490 --> 00:20:58.700
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:20:58.700 --> 00:20:59.810
Rupert Isaacson: Incredibly well.

00:21:00.020 --> 00:21:00.260
Karla Brahms: Yes.

00:21:00.320 --> 00:21:02.690
Rupert Isaacson: And therefore they
can read our emotions because our

00:21:02.690 --> 00:21:05.540
emotions express in our bodies.

00:21:06.350 --> 00:21:11.210
So the way we hold our shoulders, will,
the horse is reading that, am I safe?

00:21:11.210 --> 00:21:12.110
Am I not safe?

00:21:12.350 --> 00:21:13.730
Is this person going to attack me?

00:21:13.730 --> 00:21:16.190
Is this person going to be kind to me?

00:21:16.610 --> 00:21:17.870
Simple stuff like that.

00:21:18.230 --> 00:21:21.800
But when it, you, you talk about
makes us feel or think deeper.

00:21:21.800 --> 00:21:27.740
It, what's so interesting about that
is in our culture that is usually taken

00:21:27.740 --> 00:21:30.200
to mean or traditionally taken to mean.

00:21:31.595 --> 00:21:33.395
An intellectual process.

00:21:33.690 --> 00:21:34.110
Mm-hmm.

00:21:34.190 --> 00:21:41.435
And of course, within psychotherapy
and, you know, Freud and so forth,

00:21:41.885 --> 00:21:46.205
not so much Jung, but certainly Freud,
the idea that it's intellectual.

00:21:46.585 --> 00:21:50.455
It might go back to something
visceral and emotional, but we've

00:21:50.455 --> 00:21:52.845
got to make an intellectual journey.

00:21:53.325 --> 00:21:54.915
And I have never been

00:21:56.955 --> 00:21:58.185
persuaded by that.

00:21:58.305 --> 00:22:03.195
And I was listening to a neuroscientist
the other day, I will try to remember

00:22:03.195 --> 00:22:12.315
the name, who pointed out that the first
piece of any organism that is a mammal, I

00:22:12.315 --> 00:22:15.645
guess, that that develops in the mother.

00:22:16.575 --> 00:22:18.705
The first thing that
develops is not the brain.

00:22:19.695 --> 00:22:21.495
The first thing that develops is the gut

00:22:23.175 --> 00:22:23.775
Karla Brahms: and the heart

00:22:23.835 --> 00:22:25.395
Rupert Isaacson: and
the, well, the gut first.

00:22:25.545 --> 00:22:25.815
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:22:26.745 --> 00:22:29.745
Rupert Isaacson: The heart, the
brain comes quite a bit later.

00:22:30.165 --> 00:22:32.355
All composed of the same types of cells.

00:22:32.355 --> 00:22:33.645
All composed of neurons.

00:22:33.705 --> 00:22:33.885
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:22:34.125 --> 00:22:35.685
Rupert Isaacson: So, but when
people say, well, it's in your

00:22:35.685 --> 00:22:37.305
gut, think deep into your gut.

00:22:37.335 --> 00:22:40.995
You know, that's not some metaphor.

00:22:41.655 --> 00:22:51.585
That is the absolute source of
everything that we biologically are.

00:22:52.275 --> 00:22:54.135
The brain is an offshoot of that later.

00:22:54.285 --> 00:22:55.365
So when you talk about.

00:22:56.160 --> 00:23:02.220
Thinking deeper or exploring deeper,
or feeling deeper going into the body.

00:23:03.240 --> 00:23:08.490
It makes so much sense now that we
understand this in neuroscience terms.

00:23:09.120 --> 00:23:09.270
Karla Brahms: Mm.

00:23:09.300 --> 00:23:13.650
Rupert Isaacson: I think that perhaps
makes it safer for more traditionally

00:23:13.650 --> 00:23:19.170
minded people to accept because they
feel that, you know, if a man or a

00:23:19.170 --> 00:23:23.340
woman with a professor in front of
her name, you know, says This must be

00:23:23.340 --> 00:23:24.900
true, then okay, we can trust this.

00:23:24.900 --> 00:23:26.370
But if Rupert or Carla

00:23:27.180 --> 00:23:27.420
Karla Brahms: Yeah,

00:23:27.420 --> 00:23:29.310
Rupert Isaacson: say it,
then it's probably bullshit.

00:23:29.340 --> 00:23:30.660
'cause we're just silly old hippies.

00:23:31.050 --> 00:23:32.730
But everybody knows this.

00:23:32.730 --> 00:23:34.410
Steeped down, everybody knows this.

00:23:34.505 --> 00:23:35.115
Everybody,

00:23:35.160 --> 00:23:40.790
Karla Brahms: you know, I always, I always
try to imagine the, in the humanistic

00:23:41.270 --> 00:23:49.370
way of looking at humans, they have
this, this inner the can, the, the,

00:23:49.580 --> 00:23:50.360
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

00:23:50.360 --> 00:23:50.899
Seed

00:23:50.949 --> 00:23:53.954
Karla Brahms: the, the inner
seed that is, is good in human.

00:23:54.404 --> 00:23:54.644
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:23:54.704 --> 00:23:57.734
Karla Brahms: In the human there,
there is everything in harmony

00:23:57.734 --> 00:23:59.444
and everything is working fine.

00:23:59.534 --> 00:23:59.594
Yeah.

00:24:00.014 --> 00:24:06.294
And all that distraction, all that
misbehavior or illness that is on

00:24:06.294 --> 00:24:11.334
the outside is only to protect that
good seed in the, in the middle.

00:24:12.084 --> 00:24:18.054
And we as, as PowerPoints, we
always try to get to that good seed.

00:24:18.474 --> 00:24:24.564
With questions and the horses, they
go directly into it because they feel

00:24:24.564 --> 00:24:31.104
it, they feel that inner good seed of
the human body of the human person.

00:24:32.094 --> 00:24:37.524
And, and that is their quality,
that they take us for what we are.

00:24:37.524 --> 00:24:40.854
We can't play in front of a horse.

00:24:41.004 --> 00:24:42.894
They feel what we feel.

00:24:45.654 --> 00:24:46.674
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, I agree.

00:24:46.679 --> 00:24:49.374
I I, I'm just thinking, just, you
know what I mean, from feeding

00:24:49.374 --> 00:24:53.674
the horses before we sat down to
have this podcast and it's, we're

00:24:53.674 --> 00:24:59.824
having, and this is the spring,
well, late winter of 2026 February.

00:25:00.094 --> 00:25:06.304
And we are experiencing quite biblical
flooding and rain . And the, it's coming

00:25:06.304 --> 00:25:08.284
down in sheets and it has been forever.

00:25:08.284 --> 00:25:11.644
So I'm looking after my horses who
live, are living wild on the mountain.

00:25:12.544 --> 00:25:12.724
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

00:25:13.174 --> 00:25:13.474
Rupert Isaacson: And

00:25:13.684 --> 00:25:13.984
Karla Brahms: Wow.

00:25:15.124 --> 00:25:18.484
Rupert Isaacson: Watching how they
take care of themselves and each other

00:25:18.994 --> 00:25:21.334
using the forest, using the trees.

00:25:22.654 --> 00:25:27.934
And today they didn't come to be fed.

00:25:28.744 --> 00:25:28.834
Karla Brahms: Okay.

00:25:28.894 --> 00:25:31.924
Rupert Isaacson: So I had to go
looking for them for the first, first

00:25:31.924 --> 00:25:33.034
time I had to go looking for them.

00:25:33.214 --> 00:25:34.504
Normally they'd be at the gate.

00:25:34.879 --> 00:25:37.099
Because it's, it is a very, very
big area, but they can come to

00:25:37.099 --> 00:25:38.019
a gate where, you know mm-hmm.

00:25:38.089 --> 00:25:39.109
Be like, Hey, where's my food?

00:25:39.109 --> 00:25:41.209
You know, the normal type of horse thing.

00:25:42.469 --> 00:25:44.179
And, but not today.

00:25:44.179 --> 00:25:44.749
And I was okay.

00:25:44.749 --> 00:25:45.979
The temperature got warmer.

00:25:46.939 --> 00:25:47.569
Yeah.

00:25:47.689 --> 00:25:51.679
There's been a little bit of an
outgrowth of more spring grass overnight.

00:25:51.679 --> 00:25:52.429
I could see it.

00:25:52.699 --> 00:25:54.049
They're feeling okay.

00:25:54.049 --> 00:25:54.079
Yeah.

00:25:54.409 --> 00:25:58.849
I now have to walk the food over
to them across the mountain.

00:25:58.849 --> 00:26:00.319
And this feeling of

00:26:02.899 --> 00:26:06.799
being in service to them and
saying, yeah, it's my pleasure.

00:26:06.799 --> 00:26:10.789
It's my pleasure to walk this food to
you in the same way that it would be

00:26:10.789 --> 00:26:15.709
my pleasure to cook you dinner, Carla,
if you came, you know, to stay with me.

00:26:15.709 --> 00:26:21.559
And getting the sense of, you guys
have looked after me so much, you

00:26:21.559 --> 00:26:24.109
know, and you've looked after everyone.

00:26:24.109 --> 00:26:25.369
I love so much.

00:26:25.369 --> 00:26:27.979
And yes, absolutely.

00:26:27.979 --> 00:26:32.119
I will happily, happily walk
through the, the rain and the

00:26:32.119 --> 00:26:34.699
mud to give you this food.

00:26:34.759 --> 00:26:43.399
And then there are things which
they make you see when you do this.

00:26:43.399 --> 00:26:46.699
So we are relatively new here.

00:26:46.699 --> 00:26:50.509
We've been clearing a lot
of hazards off the area.

00:26:50.509 --> 00:26:53.119
You know, there's stuff from
30 years ago lying around.

00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:54.499
You can't find everything.

00:26:54.499 --> 00:26:56.689
So sometimes you're finding
the dangerous things.

00:26:57.964 --> 00:27:01.264
That people have left on the land,
you know, a little bit like, and so

00:27:01.264 --> 00:27:07.534
because I had to walk this particular
way, I found two very large bundles of

00:27:07.534 --> 00:27:13.814
barbed wire that had clearly been lying
there for probably 20 years, you know?

00:27:14.174 --> 00:27:14.504
Karla Brahms: Wow.

00:27:14.684 --> 00:27:19.724
Rupert Isaacson: And if the horses hadn't
wanted me to go walk that particular

00:27:19.724 --> 00:27:21.854
way, I would not have found it.

00:27:21.914 --> 00:27:22.519
Karla Brahms: Yeah, yeah.

00:27:22.524 --> 00:27:26.264
Rupert Isaacson: You know, and,
you know, then I'm looking at them

00:27:26.264 --> 00:27:29.834
going, did you want me to walk
this way so that I could, you know?

00:27:30.344 --> 00:27:30.704
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:27:32.384 --> 00:27:32.864
Rupert Isaacson: I think what,

00:27:32.894 --> 00:27:34.269
Karla Brahms: you know
what I think, go ahead.

00:27:34.309 --> 00:27:38.669
I think they're not only carrying our
bodies, but they're carrying our souls.

00:27:39.779 --> 00:27:40.119
Rupert Isaacson: Go ahead.

00:27:40.119 --> 00:27:40.279
Yeah.

00:27:40.479 --> 00:27:41.559
Karla Brahms: Carrying our souls too.

00:27:42.044 --> 00:27:47.504
And, and that is even the, the, the
bigger quality of being together

00:27:47.504 --> 00:27:53.054
with horses because they connect with
us in a way we can't even describe.

00:27:54.824 --> 00:28:01.424
I, I read about a study that the magnetic
heart field from a horse is one and a half

00:28:01.424 --> 00:28:03.704
times bigger than that from a human body.

00:28:04.274 --> 00:28:04.784
Absolutely.

00:28:04.784 --> 00:28:04.874
Rupert Isaacson: And

00:28:04.964 --> 00:28:11.199
Karla Brahms: if you step into their,
into their presence, you can just heal.

00:28:11.859 --> 00:28:15.909
Alone from that big, big
heart from the horse.

00:28:16.929 --> 00:28:17.529
Rupert Isaacson: That's right.

00:28:17.529 --> 00:28:20.169
I mean, if one brings it down
to science, that, I guess it's

00:28:20.169 --> 00:28:22.119
the Heart Math Institute in

00:28:22.119 --> 00:28:22.359
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:28:22.689 --> 00:28:25.179
Rupert Isaacson: California who
put a lot of this research out.

00:28:25.689 --> 00:28:29.949
And it seems that, but no,
this was actually university.

00:28:29.949 --> 00:28:30.669
This is German.

00:28:30.879 --> 00:28:33.459
This was Castle, castle University.

00:28:33.729 --> 00:28:34.059
Karla Brahms: Okay.

00:28:34.059 --> 00:28:36.399
Rupert Isaacson: Way back in 1990.

00:28:36.579 --> 00:28:39.039
And it, but it was someone
at the HeartMath Institute

00:28:39.189 --> 00:28:40.509
who turned me onto this.

00:28:40.659 --> 00:28:41.289
And I say, why?

00:28:41.289 --> 00:28:43.659
Why isn't this common
knowledge apparently what?

00:28:43.689 --> 00:28:49.229
I think it was in 1990 or 90 91
there was a study which showed

00:28:49.289 --> 00:28:51.089
where they measured photons.

00:28:51.659 --> 00:28:51.779
Okay.

00:28:51.779 --> 00:28:53.069
Like particles.

00:28:53.159 --> 00:28:53.459
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:28:53.709 --> 00:28:59.349
Rupert Isaacson: Being emitted by
hearts and that apparently hearts

00:28:59.349 --> 00:29:06.669
emit light and that the emission of
love seems to actually be a physical

00:29:06.669 --> 00:29:08.919
thing that you can measure in photons.

00:29:09.599 --> 00:29:09.989
And

00:29:10.079 --> 00:29:13.829
Karla Brahms: you think everything
our body is working from energy.

00:29:14.339 --> 00:29:18.419
The first thing that happens
when our heart begins to, to to

00:29:18.419 --> 00:29:22.169
pulse is an electric impulse.

00:29:22.619 --> 00:29:23.039
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:29:23.399 --> 00:29:26.729
Karla Brahms: And that stays
as, as long as we live.

00:29:27.359 --> 00:29:29.399
It only stops when we die.

00:29:30.149 --> 00:29:33.239
And, and this magnetic field that is.

00:29:33.809 --> 00:29:38.579
And that is, is is common, common
knowledge that when you have an electric

00:29:38.789 --> 00:29:41.129
impulse, that there's a magnetic field?

00:29:41.129 --> 00:29:41.219
Yes.

00:29:42.059 --> 00:29:46.409
And, and I think that horses connect
to that energy, to that magnetic

00:29:46.409 --> 00:29:51.689
field that they can read us in a way
and see where things are going good

00:29:51.749 --> 00:29:53.399
or things are going not so good.

00:29:53.399 --> 00:29:53.489
Mm-hmm.

00:29:53.789 --> 00:29:58.769
They, they sense our emotions
and, and, and, and it's like

00:29:58.769 --> 00:30:05.189
they, they, they translate them
into movement or into reactions.

00:30:05.729 --> 00:30:08.939
I can remember when I was
in my first marriage and was

00:30:08.939 --> 00:30:10.979
unhappy, but didn't recognize it.

00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:12.959
I couldn't ride my horse.

00:30:13.769 --> 00:30:18.299
As soon as I stepped on the horse,
he ran and I couldn't stop him.

00:30:18.899 --> 00:30:20.279
He ran and ran and ran.

00:30:20.819 --> 00:30:24.899
And as more, the more I started
to, to hold him, the, the faster

00:30:24.899 --> 00:30:30.989
he got until I put the reins on his
neck and said, okay, then take me.

00:30:32.159 --> 00:30:33.149
And that was the thing.

00:30:33.149 --> 00:30:38.009
He was trying to escape with me
because I was unhappy in that marriage.

00:30:38.609 --> 00:30:42.449
And when I was divorced and was
together with my second husband,

00:30:42.839 --> 00:30:46.199
he was never ever doing that again.

00:30:46.859 --> 00:30:52.709
That was only in the time when he
tried to show me, you have to get away,

00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:55.529
you have to run as fast as you can.

00:30:56.969 --> 00:31:00.719
But I only recognized it
or realized it afterwards.

00:31:02.219 --> 00:31:05.219
Rupert Isaacson: You know, it's so
interesting because having spent

00:31:05.219 --> 00:31:11.819
time in Mongolia and obviously having
experienced the life changing healings

00:31:13.499 --> 00:31:16.829
from horse and reindeer people there,

00:31:19.529 --> 00:31:24.959
the shamanic practices around
our relationship with horses go

00:31:24.959 --> 00:31:28.559
back, of course, to the beginning
of our relationship with horses.

00:31:28.979 --> 00:31:32.249
So these tribes out on the step

00:31:35.009 --> 00:31:42.209
with their concept of the wind horse,
which is a, a horse energy, which reflects

00:31:42.659 --> 00:31:46.469
our luck, our mojo, our wellbeing.

00:31:46.859 --> 00:31:52.439
Your windhorse can be off you, your
wind horse can need restoration.

00:31:52.949 --> 00:31:56.909
Equally, you can ride your
wind horse to a better place.

00:31:57.509 --> 00:32:05.789
And this concept for the people who
are in no way new agey or woo woo,

00:32:05.819 --> 00:32:12.989
they are survival oriented people
who live in one of the most harsh and

00:32:12.989 --> 00:32:19.169
extreme climates in the world, they
haven't got time to waste with ideas

00:32:19.169 --> 00:32:24.629
just because they're whimsical or sound
nice, it works or it doesn't work.

00:32:24.629 --> 00:32:29.339
You know, it's life or death out there
on the step, especially in winter and.

00:32:30.074 --> 00:32:37.334
This, of course goes back to at
least probably the Cinta bow tie and

00:32:37.334 --> 00:32:42.914
Yamaya Peoples living there 4,000
years ago, 6,000 years ago, you

00:32:42.914 --> 00:32:46.874
know, domesticating the horse and
bringing their, probably their hunting

00:32:46.874 --> 00:32:48.734
shamanic practices into their herding.

00:32:48.734 --> 00:32:51.284
And, and we think of
this as something new.

00:32:51.284 --> 00:32:52.934
We think of this as
something revolutionary.

00:32:52.934 --> 00:32:56.024
We, because of course we are so
broken from it because one, one

00:32:56.024 --> 00:33:00.434
of the, but of course it's, it's,
it's older than Christianity.

00:33:00.434 --> 00:33:02.354
It's older than science.

00:33:02.834 --> 00:33:06.904
And we horse people have
a, a direct line to this.

00:33:06.904 --> 00:33:11.194
And the horse of course is the
same today as they were back then.

00:33:11.705 --> 00:33:11.884
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

00:33:12.374 --> 00:33:14.714
Rupert Isaacson: And, and so are
we, we think we're different, but we

00:33:14.714 --> 00:33:16.754
are not, we are the same organism.

00:33:17.564 --> 00:33:20.354
We've got cell phones, but
we're the same organism.

00:33:21.974 --> 00:33:27.284
But of course there you sit in
the Odin Vault named for Odin.

00:33:27.464 --> 00:33:31.004
But we all know what happened in
Europe and we, particularly in

00:33:31.004 --> 00:33:44.054
Germany, in the centuries preceding
the Enlightenment, every single

00:33:44.264 --> 00:33:52.364
shamanic human would have been put
to death and Germany was the worst.

00:33:52.604 --> 00:33:54.404
And your area of Germany.

00:33:55.154 --> 00:33:56.624
Was one of the worst.

00:33:56.734 --> 00:34:01.034
Including, and, and mine too where we,
we have our house in Eden House and

00:34:01.664 --> 00:34:03.359
Stein, which is one of the towns there.

00:34:03.359 --> 00:34:03.759
Mm-hmm.

00:34:03.884 --> 00:34:09.534
One of the big witch burning towns,
but Bamberg Nuremberg, all all but

00:34:09.534 --> 00:34:13.344
all those towns down through the Rhine
Valley, they were burning people in

00:34:13.344 --> 00:34:15.534
their thousands, I think in Bamberg.

00:34:15.534 --> 00:34:17.814
They had to actually
create a special furnace.

00:34:18.594 --> 00:34:18.624
Karla Brahms: Oh,

00:34:19.014 --> 00:34:19.044
Rupert Isaacson: okay.

00:34:19.044 --> 00:34:22.494
More economically burn
whole families together.

00:34:22.764 --> 00:34:23.274
Karla Brahms: Oh wow.

00:34:23.274 --> 00:34:23.424
Without

00:34:23.424 --> 00:34:25.104
Rupert Isaacson: having
to use so much wood.

00:34:25.134 --> 00:34:26.784
'cause they're German and
they're very practical.

00:34:26.874 --> 00:34:30.354
And now they're cutting down too
many trees to kill all these witch,

00:34:30.354 --> 00:34:32.244
you know, absolutely bananas.

00:34:32.244 --> 00:34:35.934
And this is of course happening
in the 17th century, right.

00:34:35.964 --> 00:34:40.854
When science and enlightenment
is beginning to come into focus.

00:34:41.904 --> 00:34:43.614
So of course, what did we do?

00:34:44.214 --> 00:34:51.774
We modern humans, we just took the
same fanaticism that we were using with

00:34:51.774 --> 00:34:53.814
religion and we turned it to science.

00:34:53.814 --> 00:34:59.994
And now we're fanatics about materialist
science and saying, well, you know, and,

00:34:59.994 --> 00:35:05.814
but increasingly the real scientists, the
physicists are saying, no, no, no, no, no.

00:35:05.814 --> 00:35:08.034
It is all interconnected fields.

00:35:08.724 --> 00:35:10.764
It is all you're called veon.

00:35:10.764 --> 00:35:11.004
Right.

00:35:11.004 --> 00:35:14.574
It is all one big ocean
of which we are all waves.

00:35:14.814 --> 00:35:20.094
And sometimes the energy of that, those
fields can coalesce into something that.

00:35:20.439 --> 00:35:27.729
Is material, but then and dense
matter, you, me, whatever, a horse.

00:35:28.239 --> 00:35:30.879
But then it of course like a wave.

00:35:32.499 --> 00:35:37.059
Karla Brahms: You know, the thing is our
brain always tries to find explanations

00:35:37.149 --> 00:35:39.699
for things that can't be explained.

00:35:40.959 --> 00:35:41.229
And

00:35:41.499 --> 00:35:41.679
Rupert Isaacson: at

00:35:41.679 --> 00:35:43.954
Karla Brahms: least, at least not,
if you can't explain anything, yes.

00:35:44.019 --> 00:35:46.719
You have to find someone who is guilty.

00:35:47.894 --> 00:35:53.519
So, so that's my explanation why
they burned all these wise women

00:35:53.939 --> 00:35:55.739
in the, in the mid east century.

00:35:56.339 --> 00:36:02.159
Because they, they were still
connected to the nature, to

00:36:02.159 --> 00:36:02.789
Rupert Isaacson: absolutely

00:36:03.089 --> 00:36:09.869
Karla Brahms: to the, the spirit of other
creatures in a way that can't be explained

00:36:10.319 --> 00:36:12.089
Rupert Isaacson: well and took
power away from the church.

00:36:12.089 --> 00:36:15.299
You know, that, that, that
should say you, you cannot have

00:36:16.049 --> 00:36:17.189
Karla Brahms: another field that

00:36:17.189 --> 00:36:19.739
Rupert Isaacson: your own relationship
with the divine, it must come through the

00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:21.359
church and you must pay us money for this.

00:36:21.359 --> 00:36:21.779
Yes.

00:36:22.079 --> 00:36:27.739
Karla Brahms: And the thing is that
with this work with the NIGI try to, to

00:36:27.739 --> 00:36:32.329
connect the feeling with the thinking.

00:36:33.829 --> 00:36:39.919
So the, the standing on the pictures
that you draw, you get into the feeling

00:36:40.579 --> 00:36:45.939
and standing on the meta position, you
can, you can come into the, into the

00:36:45.939 --> 00:36:53.469
thinking, into the cognitively, reflecting
over what you have felt on the pictures.

00:36:54.309 --> 00:36:58.419
And that's what amazes me always
in this work, in the process,

00:36:58.929 --> 00:37:05.769
because the animals help us reflect
what happened to our feelings.

00:37:07.359 --> 00:37:12.929
And they often give through
their reactions a funny

00:37:13.859 --> 00:37:17.039
kind of, of, of solution.

00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:22.749
I know one time the client sat stood
on the, on the, on the meta position,

00:37:22.749 --> 00:37:29.589
and I asked what would be the next
step for the client to get further?

00:37:30.129 --> 00:37:32.259
And the horse stood there and just pooped.

00:37:33.849 --> 00:37:37.089
And meta said then, oh,
she should shit on it.

00:37:38.844 --> 00:37:46.269
And, and you know, that, that thing is
so, so, so it comes from deep inside

00:37:46.269 --> 00:37:48.639
and, and it's, it's a solution literally.

00:37:48.639 --> 00:37:49.569
That's not hard.

00:37:49.569 --> 00:37:53.649
It's, it's only feeling and it's
only, and you feel directly.

00:37:53.709 --> 00:37:54.279
That's it.

00:37:54.369 --> 00:37:54.969
That's it.

00:37:55.479 --> 00:37:55.719
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:37:55.779 --> 00:37:58.989
Karla Brahms: Because the energy is
in the right place and the, the, the

00:37:58.989 --> 00:38:01.749
explaining is exactly what you feel.

00:38:04.179 --> 00:38:06.579
Rupert Isaacson: It, it just occurred
to me as you were describing that

00:38:06.579 --> 00:38:14.359
process that, you are beha, basically
behaving like a horse chairman of the

00:38:17.269 --> 00:38:21.259
step who there's a dilemma.

00:38:21.349 --> 00:38:23.179
You know, we're a horse culture.

00:38:23.839 --> 00:38:28.159
We're going to use a shamanic
practice to look at metaphor and

00:38:29.389 --> 00:38:33.169
tie in with these fields of energy.

00:38:34.459 --> 00:38:38.329
One could call that the divine and love.

00:38:38.749 --> 00:38:42.019
And then the horses, because we're a horse
culture, are going to help us with this.

00:38:42.229 --> 00:38:44.809
And I had this lovely sense
of a full circle of their

00:38:45.199 --> 00:38:45.319
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:38:45.429 --> 00:38:51.069
Rupert Isaacson: And despite these
attempts by institutions, whether it's

00:38:51.069 --> 00:38:58.179
the church, whether it's the military
industrial thing, to which is basically

00:38:58.179 --> 00:39:07.899
the same as the church to sell us an
illusion that life is purely material,

00:39:08.139 --> 00:39:13.509
purely mechanical that our relationships
with the horses are purely biomechanical.

00:39:13.599 --> 00:39:13.899
Okay.

00:39:13.899 --> 00:39:16.599
We love them, we like them,
but it's all about technique.

00:39:16.599 --> 00:39:17.379
It's all about this.

00:39:17.379 --> 00:39:23.019
It's, you know, and of course we, we
know it never is about these things.

00:39:23.409 --> 00:39:29.589
Those things are the techniques that you
use here and there for training a horse

00:39:29.589 --> 00:39:31.239
or training yourself to do something.

00:39:31.239 --> 00:39:31.479
Okay?

00:39:31.479 --> 00:39:31.899
Yes.

00:39:32.109 --> 00:39:32.679
But this is.

00:39:33.084 --> 00:39:36.024
1000000th really of the picture.

00:39:36.804 --> 00:39:40.704
It's just something that makes
the mechanism go more easily.

00:39:40.704 --> 00:39:41.064
Yes.

00:39:41.064 --> 00:39:41.214
But

00:39:41.214 --> 00:39:41.544
Karla Brahms: yes.

00:39:41.544 --> 00:39:41.874
Yes.

00:39:41.984 --> 00:39:44.234
Rupert Isaacson: You could be driving
a car, you need to know how to drive a

00:39:44.234 --> 00:39:47.324
car, but the reason why you're driving
the car could be completely spiritual.

00:39:47.324 --> 00:39:49.394
You're driving to a spiritual experience.

00:39:49.394 --> 00:39:52.034
You're driving, or you're just
driving to go shopping, or

00:39:52.034 --> 00:39:53.564
you're driving to go into nature.

00:39:53.564 --> 00:39:55.724
Or you are, you could be driving
for any number of reasons.

00:39:55.724 --> 00:39:56.984
You need to learn how to drive.

00:39:57.194 --> 00:39:58.664
You need to learn how to ride a horse.

00:39:58.664 --> 00:39:59.354
Yes.

00:39:59.774 --> 00:40:04.964
But probably the reason why you're doing
it comes down to some interconnection

00:40:04.964 --> 00:40:07.274
between the material and the divine.

00:40:07.274 --> 00:40:09.644
And we've been sold this illusion.

00:40:11.144 --> 00:40:18.194
I feel that the work that you're doing
brings us back to what we're sort

00:40:18.194 --> 00:40:19.844
of supposed to be doing with horses.

00:40:19.849 --> 00:40:20.059
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

00:40:20.324 --> 00:40:21.884
Rupert Isaacson: And that doesn't
mean we shouldn't be riding them.

00:40:21.884 --> 00:40:23.144
Karla Brahms: Sorry, when
I interrupt you ahead.

00:40:23.204 --> 00:40:26.624
The thing is, I don't have
to do it with my horses.

00:40:26.864 --> 00:40:28.484
I can do it with any horse.

00:40:29.714 --> 00:40:33.424
I could come to you and we could
work, work with one of your horses

00:40:33.634 --> 00:40:36.904
and do the same thing and it, and
it would have the same effect.

00:40:37.144 --> 00:40:37.684
Rupert Isaacson: Let's do it.

00:40:38.344 --> 00:40:38.584
Karla Brahms: Yeah,

00:40:39.304 --> 00:40:39.789
Rupert Isaacson: let's do it.

00:40:41.764 --> 00:40:41.914
Would

00:40:41.914 --> 00:40:43.069
Karla Brahms: you come down
here and leave the retreat?

00:40:43.069 --> 00:40:45.334
And that, that's the wonderful
thing about this, this method.

00:40:45.784 --> 00:40:50.854
I'm trying to get this method into
the world because it helps so much to,

00:40:50.944 --> 00:40:57.724
to get a new idea, a new perspective
on, on what your problem is.

00:40:59.089 --> 00:40:59.869
You know what I mean?

00:41:00.169 --> 00:41:00.379
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:41:00.439 --> 00:41:00.829
I do.

00:41:00.829 --> 00:41:02.929
I'm just thinking, I'm thinking too.

00:41:04.819 --> 00:41:07.789
One of the other things though
that really impressed me about

00:41:07.789 --> 00:41:13.069
you when I first met you in 2019
and we came down to your place is

00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:22.939
while yes, we do need to look at and
relate to horses in this way as well.

00:41:23.239 --> 00:41:27.739
You, we also do need really,
really solid horsemanship.

00:41:27.799 --> 00:41:33.409
And the, one of the things which I think
listeners and viewers you need to know

00:41:33.409 --> 00:41:37.699
about Carla is she really does actually
know how to train a horse really well.

00:41:38.029 --> 00:41:41.604
And I when Yeah, and she's, they train me.

00:41:41.604 --> 00:41:46.269
She actually gone through, like
my wife has all of those German

00:41:46.329 --> 00:41:50.379
exams that you go through to become
what they, you know, a trainer.

00:41:50.559 --> 00:41:53.409
And you know, it's Germany,
so they make you jump through

00:41:53.409 --> 00:41:55.479
the hoops properly, literally.

00:41:55.809 --> 00:41:59.109
And okay, it's a bit mechanical and
it's a bit militaristic, but they

00:41:59.109 --> 00:42:01.899
know horses in Germany, there's no
one can say they don't know horses.

00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:04.089
It's one of the great horse
cultures of the world.

00:42:05.079 --> 00:42:08.279
When I was down at Carla I'm
gonna paint this picture.

00:42:08.339 --> 00:42:13.409
We went into the forest
and you had my children.

00:42:13.949 --> 00:42:14.819
You didn't know me.

00:42:15.689 --> 00:42:16.559
You didn't know them.

00:42:16.799 --> 00:42:22.799
You had my children on your ponies
just riding with us completely.

00:42:23.204 --> 00:42:23.744
Free.

00:42:23.954 --> 00:42:29.024
The children didn't really need to know
how to ride because you had trained

00:42:29.024 --> 00:42:33.014
your horses so well, that despite the
fact that you live in an area with

00:42:33.014 --> 00:42:37.424
almost no fences and the horses could
just bugger off wherever they want

00:42:37.424 --> 00:42:41.444
to, anytime and certainly just turn
around and go home if they wanted to.

00:42:43.274 --> 00:42:49.934
You gave my kids who at that point
couldn't ride this feeling that they could

00:42:49.934 --> 00:42:55.724
ride that, that they were independently
on horseback going out into, I know about

00:42:55.724 --> 00:42:59.954
three or four people in my life who can
do that, who can train a horse to that

00:42:59.954 --> 00:43:07.514
degree, that it makes it seem like the
complete novice rider is riding that

00:43:07.514 --> 00:43:12.794
horse independently because that horse
is just going to go where you Carla go.

00:43:13.994 --> 00:43:14.474
Karla Brahms: You know, one

00:43:14.474 --> 00:43:17.534
Rupert Isaacson: funny thing, this
is extraordinary horsemanship.

00:43:17.834 --> 00:43:24.284
I'd like you to tell us a little bit about
the actual training that you put into your

00:43:24.284 --> 00:43:27.374
horses to achieve this, because this is

00:43:27.374 --> 00:43:31.214
Karla Brahms: quite, you know, one, one
funny thing in the, in the film that

00:43:31.214 --> 00:43:36.644
we were making together, there was one
scene when I, when I watched it in the,

00:43:36.644 --> 00:43:39.854
in the final version when it was on tv.

00:43:40.814 --> 00:43:46.064
I realized I didn't, I didn't
remember that this scene was taken.

00:43:46.574 --> 00:43:50.774
That was when we stood here on the,
on the plots and you were talking

00:43:50.774 --> 00:43:57.404
about the little Emil fo that was
behaving normally, in my opinion.

00:43:57.614 --> 00:43:59.054
And you said that's not normal.

00:43:59.114 --> 00:43:59.984
That's not normal.

00:44:00.074 --> 00:44:05.024
Usually horse fos are known for being
quite dangerous and kicking and playing.

00:44:05.024 --> 00:44:05.234
Yeah.

00:44:05.264 --> 00:44:05.384
'cause

00:44:05.384 --> 00:44:06.824
Rupert Isaacson: we had
all those kids around

00:44:06.829 --> 00:44:07.329
Karla Brahms: the spot.

00:44:07.329 --> 00:44:07.529
Yeah.

00:44:07.529 --> 00:44:08.774
And, and with Amy around him.

00:44:08.894 --> 00:44:09.224
And

00:44:09.224 --> 00:44:09.554
Rupert Isaacson: who

00:44:09.554 --> 00:44:09.689
Karla Brahms: were they?

00:44:09.689 --> 00:44:12.704
When I, when I watched that
scene, I thought, oh, well

00:44:13.334 --> 00:44:14.954
Rupert, you don't know my fos.

00:44:15.524 --> 00:44:19.424
They always do it like this
because they're, they grow

00:44:19.424 --> 00:44:22.124
into the work from day one.

00:44:23.294 --> 00:44:30.044
And, and I always have the feeling
that, that what you expect the horse

00:44:30.044 --> 00:44:35.534
to do, the horse will do because
they're so keen on pleasing us.

00:44:35.924 --> 00:44:39.974
And when you expect, oh, now it's
getting dangerous, the horses

00:44:40.124 --> 00:44:42.194
will, will run into the field.

00:44:42.794 --> 00:44:44.054
They probably will do it.

00:44:44.954 --> 00:44:51.824
But if you feel, feel, oh, we are walking
here and everything's fine and I trust

00:44:51.824 --> 00:44:57.134
you, you, you trust you, you are carrying
the, the kids for me, and I trust you.

00:44:57.584 --> 00:44:59.654
And, and then nothing happens.

00:45:00.489 --> 00:45:01.109
You know what I mean?

00:45:01.249 --> 00:45:02.869
Really when I feel unsafe.

00:45:02.969 --> 00:45:03.189
But

00:45:03.189 --> 00:45:04.304
Rupert Isaacson: I'm gonna
challenge you on this.

00:45:04.304 --> 00:45:08.924
Karla Brahms: When I feel
unsafe, I get another.

00:45:09.854 --> 00:45:13.584
Leash on the horse and say
I don't feel safe here.

00:45:14.214 --> 00:45:14.724
I take, well,

00:45:14.724 --> 00:45:15.684
Rupert Isaacson: I think that,
I think that's the thing.

00:45:16.464 --> 00:45:16.494
Karla Brahms: I

00:45:16.494 --> 00:45:16.764
Rupert Isaacson: get you

00:45:16.764 --> 00:45:17.244
Karla Brahms: screw this,

00:45:17.304 --> 00:45:19.344
Rupert Isaacson: you're not
operating under an illusion.

00:45:19.374 --> 00:45:21.804
Like, you know, the difference
between safe and not safe.

00:45:22.254 --> 00:45:24.504
So, and you know how to make a horse safe.

00:45:24.504 --> 00:45:27.594
So when you say because it's
quite dangerous, I think for

00:45:27.594 --> 00:45:30.534
some people to think, oh, I could
just expect this from my horse.

00:45:30.539 --> 00:45:31.044
Karla Brahms: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:31.044 --> 00:45:31.884
I know what you mean.

00:45:32.034 --> 00:45:34.104
Rupert Isaacson: We know it's
a much more layered thing.

00:45:34.259 --> 00:45:37.914
Karla Brahms: I could, I can only work
like this because I know my horses, right.

00:45:38.094 --> 00:45:46.024
They live with me 24 7 and I'm very,
very looking after being, working safe.

00:45:46.414 --> 00:45:49.814
Like in this 25 years I
was working with kids.

00:45:49.814 --> 00:45:53.174
I only got one kid in the hospital
because she banged her hand

00:45:53.564 --> 00:45:56.054
on a tree, on the tree branch.

00:45:57.224 --> 00:46:01.764
And the other thing was that it was
slippery and the horses the horse

00:46:01.974 --> 00:46:07.484
fell on the side and, and bruised
the, the, the ankle of the kid.

00:46:07.934 --> 00:46:10.514
So there were the two
accidents that really happened.

00:46:10.514 --> 00:46:13.334
And I'm outside with the kids every day.

00:46:13.784 --> 00:46:14.054
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:46:14.500 --> 00:46:17.340
If you're in the equine assisted
field, or if you're considering

00:46:17.340 --> 00:46:21.260
a career in the equine assisted
field, you might want to consider

00:46:21.330 --> 00:46:25.600
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:46:25.660 --> 00:46:31.240
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:46:31.835 --> 00:46:38.145
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:46:38.145 --> 00:46:40.815
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:46:40.815 --> 00:46:43.695
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:46:44.035 --> 00:46:47.305
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:46:47.800 --> 00:46:52.750
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:46:53.410 --> 00:46:54.850
It works incredibly well.

00:46:54.850 --> 00:46:56.570
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:46:57.280 --> 00:46:58.030
Check it out.

00:46:58.710 --> 00:47:02.860
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:47:02.870 --> 00:47:06.240
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:47:06.240 --> 00:47:07.990
applied in schools, in homes.

00:47:08.190 --> 00:47:13.180
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:47:13.180 --> 00:47:14.720
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:47:16.075 --> 00:47:17.355
when they're not with you.

00:47:17.865 --> 00:47:21.305
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:47:21.665 --> 00:47:24.285
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:47:24.285 --> 00:47:28.285
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:47:28.315 --> 00:47:32.605
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:47:33.045 --> 00:47:36.385
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:47:36.405 --> 00:47:40.645
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:47:40.845 --> 00:47:45.135
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:47:45.135 --> 00:47:48.435
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:47:48.435 --> 00:47:51.530
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:47:51.770 --> 00:47:56.270
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:47:56.600 --> 00:47:58.250
absolutely gives you this.

00:47:58.310 --> 00:48:02.720
So you talk about your horses come
into that behavior, but of course they

00:48:02.720 --> 00:48:08.150
come into this functionality because
they are around horses that have

00:48:08.150 --> 00:48:10.250
also been trained into functionality.

00:48:10.970 --> 00:48:11.160
That's it.

00:48:11.160 --> 00:48:11.170
Yeah.

00:48:11.170 --> 00:48:14.730
So that the mother horse displays
this functionality to the.

00:48:15.515 --> 00:48:16.565
The junior horse.

00:48:16.565 --> 00:48:20.465
And of course we know that this is
how it works in a good horse tribe.

00:48:21.035 --> 00:48:25.415
However, somebody has to train
that initial functionality

00:48:25.445 --> 00:48:25.715
Karla Brahms: Yes.

00:48:25.715 --> 00:48:26.645
Rupert Isaacson: Into the horse.

00:48:26.645 --> 00:48:27.335
Yes, they do.

00:48:27.455 --> 00:48:27.815
Karla Brahms: Yes.

00:48:27.815 --> 00:48:27.825
Yes.

00:48:27.965 --> 00:48:28.055
Yeah.

00:48:28.055 --> 00:48:30.035
Rupert Isaacson: Could you just talk
to us a little bit from a, just a

00:48:30.035 --> 00:48:35.855
complete horsemanship point of view
about when you put the first of

00:48:35.855 --> 00:48:41.285
those horses together, I dunno if
that was Flocky or one before her.

00:48:42.285 --> 00:48:45.435
But if you go on, if you go on Carla's
website, you'll see a lovely spotted

00:48:45.435 --> 00:48:47.355
horse doing lots of cool stuff.

00:48:47.355 --> 00:48:47.955
That's flocky.

00:48:47.955 --> 00:48:48.855
Karla Brahms: That could be lunch dogs.

00:48:49.225 --> 00:48:50.125
Rupert Isaacson: Yes, exactly.

00:48:50.125 --> 00:48:50.185
Yeah.

00:48:50.455 --> 00:48:51.415
P longstocking.

00:48:51.775 --> 00:48:52.015
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:48:52.355 --> 00:48:56.885
Rupert Isaacson: Talk to us about
how you created that original Yeah.

00:48:56.885 --> 00:49:01.775
Functional couple of horses that then
the rest of them took their cue from.

00:49:01.775 --> 00:49:04.650
I think it's really useful for
people in this field to Yeah.

00:49:04.835 --> 00:49:05.585
To know this

00:49:06.365 --> 00:49:11.835
Karla Brahms: well, I actually,
I just train them to learn

00:49:11.925 --> 00:49:14.175
a lot different things.

00:49:14.935 --> 00:49:19.695
Not only carrying a rider, but
standing still is the first

00:49:19.695 --> 00:49:22.605
thing they learn, standing still.

00:49:22.815 --> 00:49:27.985
And and they, they know that
when they communicate with

00:49:27.985 --> 00:49:30.055
us that they are respected.

00:49:30.775 --> 00:49:35.725
I always say to the children, don't pet a
horse when it doesn't want to be petted.

00:49:36.535 --> 00:49:39.235
And, and the, the head is private sphere.

00:49:40.585 --> 00:49:48.985
And I always tell the kids what you are
happy or the things that feel safe for

00:49:48.985 --> 00:49:51.745
you and that, that you feel good for you.

00:49:52.045 --> 00:49:54.205
You can be sure that the horses do that.

00:49:54.295 --> 00:49:55.255
The same thing.

00:49:55.615 --> 00:50:00.145
So if you don't want to be touched
in your face, don't touch the horse

00:50:00.145 --> 00:50:05.575
on the, in the face and always try to
ask the horse what you want from it.

00:50:06.385 --> 00:50:09.235
And the horse will always respond to it.

00:50:09.865 --> 00:50:12.925
And if it doesn't respond in
the right way, maybe you ask

00:50:12.925 --> 00:50:14.875
the, the, the wrong question.

00:50:15.565 --> 00:50:22.365
And, and what I try to, to to teach is
that they get into communication that

00:50:22.365 --> 00:50:28.225
they see the horse not as a a sportive
thing that you can ride on that, that

00:50:28.225 --> 00:50:30.895
you can direct through the forest.

00:50:31.195 --> 00:50:38.335
But it's a partner who is carrying you and
you are the, the, the meat eater who's be

00:50:38.395 --> 00:50:40.345
sitting in the back of the horse's neck.

00:50:41.395 --> 00:50:44.195
And so I try to teach them teamwork.

00:50:44.375 --> 00:50:50.105
I try to teach them interaction
on a, on a certain level where

00:50:50.105 --> 00:50:52.085
the horse is on the same spot.

00:50:53.240 --> 00:50:54.410
We call it in German.

00:50:55.100 --> 00:51:02.180
And when I train my horses, I always look
that they feel safe, that they can trust

00:51:02.180 --> 00:51:08.300
me, and that that things that they see
that the things that I do won't harm them.

00:51:09.170 --> 00:51:11.870
So I always ask them to give me the hoof.

00:51:12.470 --> 00:51:16.460
I always ask them, can
I put on the halter?

00:51:17.090 --> 00:51:20.090
And, and they, they are allowed to say no.

00:51:21.320 --> 00:51:25.160
And then I ask again,
but in a friendly way.

00:51:25.880 --> 00:51:30.690
And that, that is the thing
that the horses learn.

00:51:31.290 --> 00:51:34.260
Hey, when Carla is coming, it's fun.

00:51:34.980 --> 00:51:36.690
We do things that are nice.

00:51:37.920 --> 00:51:43.500
And in all those years, I didn't
have the problem that the horses

00:51:43.560 --> 00:51:45.030
didn't want to come with us.

00:51:45.960 --> 00:51:49.890
When they see the ki see me with
the kids going to the meadows in

00:51:49.890 --> 00:51:51.720
the summer, they're outside all day.

00:51:52.230 --> 00:51:54.210
They come because they say, Hey, it's fun.

00:51:55.830 --> 00:52:00.510
We go outside, we go on a nice ride,
we go, we get, we get brushed in a

00:52:00.510 --> 00:52:04.830
way that's, that's feeling comfortable
for us and we are treated in a

00:52:04.830 --> 00:52:07.140
way that feels comfortable for us.

00:52:09.000 --> 00:52:11.310
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I feel that
we, we have, I mean I've, I've

00:52:11.310 --> 00:52:14.250
observed this with your horses
and it's, it's, it's remarkable.

00:52:14.650 --> 00:52:17.560
And questions come up in my mind.

00:52:17.630 --> 00:52:23.610
So one is, if you didn't have the
base level of horsemanship that you

00:52:23.610 --> 00:52:29.370
have, I wonder if it would go as well.

00:52:31.260 --> 00:52:34.560
But the second thing is, part of
that horsemanship isn't just the

00:52:34.560 --> 00:52:39.540
classical training that I know
that you know how to do, but it's

00:52:39.540 --> 00:52:41.880
also you meet your horses' needs.

00:52:41.880 --> 00:52:42.180
Right.

00:52:42.180 --> 00:52:45.600
So your horses, do you think, I
guess, let me pose this as a question.

00:52:45.600 --> 00:52:49.620
Do you think that if your horses
were living, for example, in

00:52:49.620 --> 00:52:56.760
stables, you could have the same
level of cooperation from them

00:52:57.150 --> 00:52:57.450
Karla Brahms: No.

00:52:57.660 --> 00:53:00.120
Rupert Isaacson: That you have
out there in the forest with them?

00:53:00.840 --> 00:53:01.020
Karla Brahms: No.

00:53:01.020 --> 00:53:05.940
It's my responsibility to look
after them, that they can live in

00:53:05.940 --> 00:53:11.850
a kind of way that suits them, that
is for, for their, their needs.

00:53:12.060 --> 00:53:15.330
I always have their needs
more in I than my own.

00:53:15.750 --> 00:53:16.050
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

00:53:16.140 --> 00:53:18.720
Karla Brahms: So the hoofs from
my horses are always nicer than

00:53:18.720 --> 00:53:21.055
my fingernails, for example.

00:53:21.675 --> 00:53:22.575
And that's

00:53:22.575 --> 00:53:22.775
Rupert Isaacson: a better

00:53:22.905 --> 00:53:23.255
Karla Brahms: every

00:53:24.210 --> 00:53:24.330
Rupert Isaacson: horse.

00:53:24.330 --> 00:53:24.390
Yeah.

00:53:24.390 --> 00:53:24.400
Yeah.

00:53:24.960 --> 00:53:29.340
Karla Brahms: And the thing is, I,
I learned from my horses and my work

00:53:29.430 --> 00:53:33.270
changed because of the needs of my horses.

00:53:33.270 --> 00:53:33.300
Mm

00:53:33.300 --> 00:53:33.780
mm

00:53:34.620 --> 00:53:37.620
Like last summer, no, two summers ago.

00:53:38.475 --> 00:53:45.885
In 2024 when my husband was so ill, I
had to give away three of my horses.

00:53:46.905 --> 00:53:52.155
And I knew with that change I
couldn't do the, the groups anymore.

00:53:53.535 --> 00:53:56.715
So now my work is changing
again with the horses.

00:53:56.715 --> 00:54:03.825
I have my, my flocker, my, my horse that
is absolutely reliable on everything.

00:54:03.825 --> 00:54:08.655
She's ev doing everything for the
persons that are around with her.

00:54:09.105 --> 00:54:14.325
She's now 25 years old and I
can't put grownups on their

00:54:14.325 --> 00:54:16.155
back, on her back anymore.

00:54:16.575 --> 00:54:22.425
And the other two horses I have, they
are darlings, but I couldn't work with

00:54:22.425 --> 00:54:25.470
kids with them and they're not mature.

00:54:25.530 --> 00:54:27.255
So my work is changing again.

00:54:27.345 --> 00:54:28.395
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I hear you.

00:54:28.635 --> 00:54:29.145
I hear you.

00:54:29.445 --> 00:54:30.825
This is, this is so sane.

00:54:30.945 --> 00:54:34.485
And I, I think that, so for example,
in Horse Boy, when we are back riding,

00:54:34.485 --> 00:54:39.375
meaning when we ride with a child,
the horse must be over 10 years old.

00:54:39.795 --> 00:54:39.855
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:54:39.855 --> 00:54:41.955
' Rupert Isaacson: cause we know
that they're just not mature

00:54:41.955 --> 00:54:46.095
enough in the brain and the
emotional, you know, to be safe.

00:54:46.395 --> 00:54:51.765
But we also need to know that they have
enough muscle that their back is strong.

00:54:51.765 --> 00:54:57.405
That they, you know, that
they have the body with enough

00:54:57.405 --> 00:55:00.435
wellbeing to give wellbeing.

00:55:00.840 --> 00:55:01.140
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:55:01.200 --> 00:55:01.410
Yeah.

00:55:01.460 --> 00:55:03.860
Rupert Isaacson: And if they don't
have this, we, we can't do it.

00:55:03.920 --> 00:55:09.860
And so as you say, as horses
change, get older, we have to find

00:55:09.860 --> 00:55:11.360
a different role for that horse.

00:55:11.600 --> 00:55:13.640
Or if a horse is too
young for that role, yeah.

00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:16.010
We need a different role for that horse.

00:55:16.010 --> 00:55:16.070
Yeah.

00:55:16.160 --> 00:55:18.830
And so we have to be flexible like this.

00:55:19.190 --> 00:55:21.800
And, you know, you keep your
horses in this, in this very

00:55:22.400 --> 00:55:24.890
ideal, naturalistic way.

00:55:25.340 --> 00:55:27.320
I'm lucky I can do the same thing.

00:55:27.350 --> 00:55:31.790
But when we first moved to Germany
from Texas, where we had had

00:55:31.790 --> 00:55:34.880
our own ranch, we didn't have
that option because we were new.

00:55:34.880 --> 00:55:38.510
So we needed to keep the horses at
a boarding stable, which is where

00:55:38.510 --> 00:55:42.050
we met you, you met first, where
the horses were living in stables.

00:55:42.050 --> 00:55:45.320
And this was the first time I
had ever kept my horses this way.

00:55:45.320 --> 00:55:45.410
Mm-hmm.

00:55:45.650 --> 00:55:49.970
And I remember thinking, ah, this is going
to be an interesting challenge because

00:55:50.450 --> 00:55:57.290
this will allow me to help people who have
to keep their horses in this situation.

00:55:57.290 --> 00:55:57.300
Mm-hmm.

00:55:57.320 --> 00:55:57.500
Mm-hmm.

00:55:57.500 --> 00:56:01.100
Because I won't, I can't, you can't
say to somebody who's living on

00:56:01.100 --> 00:56:02.600
the edges of a city, for example.

00:56:03.290 --> 00:56:03.500
Yeah.

00:56:03.500 --> 00:56:05.990
You know, you must keep your
horses like Carla because

00:56:06.860 --> 00:56:07.460
Karla Brahms: that's not possible.

00:56:07.460 --> 00:56:07.670
It's not

00:56:07.670 --> 00:56:08.150
Rupert Isaacson: possible.

00:56:08.360 --> 00:56:08.630
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:56:08.630 --> 00:56:08.640
Yeah.

00:56:09.110 --> 00:56:11.570
Rupert Isaacson: But you also can't
say you should not keep horses.

00:56:11.750 --> 00:56:12.350
Karla Brahms: That's the thing.

00:56:12.350 --> 00:56:15.045
Rupert Isaacson: So how
do we make the whole.

00:56:16.415 --> 00:56:20.615
It as ideal as possible
given the limitations.

00:56:20.825 --> 00:56:24.665
So of course I had to answer this and
I had to observe my horses and say,

00:56:24.935 --> 00:56:28.715
will they be as safe and will they
be as reliable as they were in Texas?

00:56:29.015 --> 00:56:33.365
Because now they are not having
as much access to nature.

00:56:33.845 --> 00:56:36.995
And I very quickly came to the
conclusion that no, I could

00:56:36.995 --> 00:56:39.245
not expect the same from them.

00:56:39.785 --> 00:56:39.875
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

00:56:40.095 --> 00:56:42.885
Rupert Isaacson: So then I thought,
well, okay then how do I do this?

00:56:42.885 --> 00:56:46.125
Particularly in winter, where in
Germany, you know, the farmers don't

00:56:46.125 --> 00:56:49.305
want the horses on the fields because
they don't want the fields muddy.

00:56:49.455 --> 00:56:52.785
This was interesting for me coming
from England where we just accept mud.

00:56:52.845 --> 00:56:55.065
You know, mud is just
the culture, you know?

00:56:55.575 --> 00:56:57.195
Oh, a nice bit of mud for you, you know?

00:56:57.255 --> 00:56:58.185
Oh, thank you very much.

00:56:58.185 --> 00:56:59.055
I have a last bit of mud.

00:56:59.415 --> 00:57:01.005
Would you rock some mud?

00:57:01.005 --> 00:57:01.545
Would you rock some mud with your mud?

00:57:01.650 --> 00:57:03.465
You know, so, you know, it's like what?

00:57:03.465 --> 00:57:04.605
You don't want muddy fields?

00:57:04.665 --> 00:57:05.325
Okay, fine.

00:57:06.135 --> 00:57:07.815
Karla Brahms: You we have,
we have a certain saying it's

00:57:07.815 --> 00:57:09.010
the so-called often much,

00:57:11.790 --> 00:57:12.890
but the often hai,

00:57:13.995 --> 00:57:16.095
Rupert Isaacson: the keeping
your horse in the open mud.

00:57:16.335 --> 00:57:16.605
Yeah,

00:57:16.935 --> 00:57:17.475
Karla Brahms: right.

00:57:18.165 --> 00:57:19.905
Rupert Isaacson: Which of course
horses seemed fine with, but

00:57:20.475 --> 00:57:23.895
so, you know, because that's
was the culture of the barn.

00:57:24.045 --> 00:57:26.565
So that's where we really came up
with the concept of crazy time.

00:57:27.195 --> 00:57:32.925
And luckily we had a barn
owner who would allow us.

00:57:33.270 --> 00:57:37.830
To use the big indoor arena
to free jump the horses.

00:57:37.830 --> 00:57:42.180
'cause our horses are very
energetic and the horses loved this.

00:57:42.300 --> 00:57:42.600
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

00:57:42.660 --> 00:57:45.600
Rupert Isaacson: And we could do it
in herds, we could do it in teams.

00:57:45.780 --> 00:57:46.860
Summertime was no problem.

00:57:46.860 --> 00:57:48.180
Summertime, the horses could go out.

00:57:48.180 --> 00:57:52.860
But winter it was a real, and we found
that when we answered the horses' needs

00:57:52.860 --> 00:57:56.940
with this crazy time, then they went
absolutely back to being as reliable

00:57:57.000 --> 00:57:57.210
Karla Brahms: Yes.

00:57:57.270 --> 00:57:57.750
Rupert Isaacson: As they had been.

00:57:57.750 --> 00:57:58.020
That's the

00:57:58.020 --> 00:57:58.320
Karla Brahms: thing.

00:57:58.350 --> 00:57:58.620
Yeah.

00:57:58.625 --> 00:58:00.540
Rupert Isaacson: Because they
had endorphins in their system.

00:58:00.540 --> 00:58:04.260
Karla Brahms: I also have a small
indoor arena, which I use for free

00:58:04.260 --> 00:58:06.510
work, for free fire, abide we call it.

00:58:07.230 --> 00:58:12.190
And the horses, they, they show
me always what they want to do.

00:58:12.610 --> 00:58:14.720
So I have like

00:58:15.110 --> 00:58:15.440
yeah.

00:58:15.440 --> 00:58:15.890
Poles.

00:58:15.890 --> 00:58:16.010
Poles,

00:58:16.700 --> 00:58:16.910
yeah.

00:58:17.475 --> 00:58:20.935
And I have a est and I have a a whipper, A

00:58:20.940 --> 00:58:21.370
pedestal.

00:58:21.670 --> 00:58:21.820
Yeah.

00:58:21.820 --> 00:58:22.330
A Cecil.

00:58:22.390 --> 00:58:22.720
Yeah.

00:58:23.800 --> 00:58:26.080
And they always show me
what they want to do.

00:58:26.415 --> 00:58:26.575
Absolutely.

00:58:26.580 --> 00:58:32.250
And it's so amazing to see how
they, how they try to, to find

00:58:32.250 --> 00:58:37.230
out what can we do with these
things or how they play with me.

00:58:37.530 --> 00:58:37.980
Exactly.

00:58:38.400 --> 00:58:41.460
They actually want to play with
you can, I can jump on it with my

00:58:41.490 --> 00:58:43.530
front whos and things like that.

00:58:43.530 --> 00:58:44.760
That's so amazing.

00:58:45.300 --> 00:58:49.500
So if you give them crazy time,
like you say and, and they feel that

00:58:49.500 --> 00:58:51.420
their, their needs are respected.

00:58:51.990 --> 00:58:54.390
They, they are reliable.

00:58:55.260 --> 00:58:55.920
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

00:58:55.920 --> 00:58:58.230
It's one of the things which,
you know, because you also know

00:58:58.230 --> 00:59:00.030
that we teach a lot of dressage.

00:59:00.300 --> 00:59:00.450
Yeah.

00:59:00.450 --> 00:59:03.930
And so of course when I'm wearing
my dressage hat, one of the

00:59:03.930 --> 00:59:08.220
things I'm often talking about
is allowing your horse to say no.

00:59:08.640 --> 00:59:09.000
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:59:09.300 --> 00:59:11.460
Rupert Isaacson: How is this
compatible with dressage?

00:59:11.670 --> 00:59:12.930
And people have asked me this.

00:59:12.930 --> 00:59:17.790
I said, well, because it's pointless
if your horse does not want to do it.

00:59:18.030 --> 00:59:18.450
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:59:18.570 --> 00:59:21.030
Rupert Isaacson: If your horse
doesn't want to do anything jumping,

00:59:21.030 --> 00:59:22.560
going in the forest dressage.

00:59:23.040 --> 00:59:23.340
Yeah.

00:59:23.340 --> 00:59:24.000
Why?

00:59:24.210 --> 00:59:24.750
Okay.

00:59:24.780 --> 00:59:30.090
Well maybe we need to go
get the doctor in town.

00:59:30.360 --> 00:59:34.770
A hundred years ago, the horse has
to say, yes, your wife is sick.

00:59:34.770 --> 00:59:35.640
You must get on your horse.

00:59:35.640 --> 00:59:36.540
You must ride to town.

00:59:36.840 --> 00:59:39.150
You must make sure that the
horse is absolutely with

00:59:39.150 --> 00:59:40.320
you, or your wife will die.

00:59:40.320 --> 00:59:41.040
Yes, sure.

00:59:41.400 --> 00:59:41.670
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

00:59:41.880 --> 00:59:43.620
Rupert Isaacson: And then the
doctor must come with his horse.

00:59:43.620 --> 00:59:45.420
His horse has to say, yes, absolutely.

00:59:45.600 --> 00:59:50.400
So how do you get a horse that says yes
like that by allowing them to say no?

00:59:50.490 --> 00:59:55.950
Sometimes that, just like you, if I, if
I, so this is of course easier when one

00:59:55.950 --> 01:00:00.960
has a herd, but if I say, oh, Carla's
coming and we want to do this thing

01:00:00.960 --> 01:00:03.060
with Carla, so I think it's this horse.

01:00:03.210 --> 01:00:06.450
So I go out to the field to get
this horse, and I arrive with

01:00:06.450 --> 01:00:09.900
the Holter or the bridle, and the
horse says pretty clearly to me.

01:00:09.990 --> 01:00:10.470
No,

01:00:10.590 --> 01:00:10.920
Karla Brahms: no.

01:00:11.880 --> 01:00:12.510
Usually

01:00:12.810 --> 01:00:14.640
Rupert Isaacson: another horse
will walk straight up to me

01:00:14.640 --> 01:00:15.960
and go, actually it's me today.

01:00:16.350 --> 01:00:16.560
Karla Brahms: Yes.

01:00:16.560 --> 01:00:17.670
Rupert Isaacson: And I'll go, oh, okay.

01:00:18.090 --> 01:00:18.390
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:00:19.575 --> 01:00:19.995
Rupert Isaacson: This

01:00:19.995 --> 01:00:23.265
Karla Brahms: can see that is one
thing that I also use with my work.

01:00:23.715 --> 01:00:27.525
The, the clients, we, the first
thing we do is go into the

01:00:27.525 --> 01:00:32.085
stable or into the meadow and see
which horse connects with you.

01:00:32.565 --> 01:00:33.045
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:00:33.375 --> 01:00:36.555
Karla Brahms: Which horse do
you feel is a good company?

01:00:37.755 --> 01:00:39.885
And often that horse is coming.

01:00:40.665 --> 01:00:41.265
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:00:41.265 --> 01:00:42.855
And it can change from day to day.

01:00:42.975 --> 01:00:43.425
Karla Brahms: Yes.

01:00:44.175 --> 01:00:45.375
Rupert Isaacson: Just like with people.

01:00:45.455 --> 01:00:45.515
Yeah.

01:00:45.695 --> 01:00:49.775
But then if yes, if I really need
that horse to ride over the mountain

01:00:49.775 --> 01:00:52.805
in the thunderstorm, he's more likely

01:00:53.525 --> 01:00:55.115
Karla Brahms: the horse then
the horse will, will feel that.

01:00:55.475 --> 01:00:55.865
Rupert Isaacson: Exactly.

01:00:56.345 --> 01:00:56.675
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:00:57.065 --> 01:00:57.605
Rupert Isaacson: And then you, you

01:00:57.605 --> 01:01:00.590
Karla Brahms: can, you know, you
know, one thing the, the little Emil

01:01:00.590 --> 01:01:05.450
pony, I raised him because I wanted to
have a second horse for the carriage.

01:01:06.230 --> 01:01:12.080
I want, my, my desperate wish was
to go with two ponies with spots on

01:01:12.080 --> 01:01:14.690
their bottom in front of the carriage.

01:01:16.850 --> 01:01:21.800
And, and he exactly fulfilled that wish.

01:01:22.400 --> 01:01:22.670
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:01:23.000 --> 01:01:26.690
Karla Brahms: It was so easy
to train him to go in front of

01:01:26.690 --> 01:01:27.860
the carriage with his mother.

01:01:27.860 --> 01:01:28.340
Mother.

01:01:28.670 --> 01:01:28.820
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:01:29.720 --> 01:01:31.430
Karla Brahms: And that was for two years.

01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:38.690
The, the hobby that my, my husband
and I were, were happy with and, and.

01:01:39.170 --> 01:01:45.620
I, I, I know one of my, my mentors, one of
my teachers way, way back when I started

01:01:45.620 --> 01:01:51.110
with the therapeutic riding, he said,
if you buy a horse for a special reason,

01:01:51.680 --> 01:01:54.350
it will fulfill exactly that reason.

01:01:54.800 --> 01:01:55.700
But no other.

01:01:57.470 --> 01:02:03.860
And the thing is that, that really, that
hit me, and with this experience now from

01:02:03.860 --> 01:02:08.060
almost 30 years, I can say he was right.

01:02:09.890 --> 01:02:11.000
Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting.

01:02:11.000 --> 01:02:14.300
I, I remember you telling me another
story about the fulfillment of

01:02:14.300 --> 01:02:18.380
dreams because you, like me, did
not come from a horsey background.

01:02:19.130 --> 01:02:23.240
I think you should tell us,
you, you were a child, a girl

01:02:23.240 --> 01:02:24.860
who wanted horses very badly.

01:02:25.220 --> 01:02:31.430
Your father, who was a riverboat
captain, did not care from horses.

01:02:33.260 --> 01:02:34.970
Tell us what he said to you.

01:02:35.840 --> 01:02:37.370
You can have a horse when,

01:02:37.535 --> 01:02:37.825
Karla Brahms: yeah.

01:02:38.960 --> 01:02:39.090
Do you remember?

01:02:39.090 --> 01:02:44.780
We were always sitting in the boat and the
river always goes one direction, right?

01:02:44.810 --> 01:02:46.580
It always flows river down.

01:02:47.270 --> 01:02:52.010
And he said, you can have a horse
when the waves are going river up.

01:02:53.120 --> 01:02:57.980
And sometimes when the wind was coming
from down the, the, the valley, the

01:02:57.980 --> 01:02:59.690
waves looked like they were going.

01:03:00.920 --> 01:03:03.680
And I said, oh, daddy,
daddy, look now I get a pony.

01:03:04.700 --> 01:03:06.850
And he said, ah, ha ha ha.

01:03:07.250 --> 01:03:08.720
That was only just a joke.

01:03:09.050 --> 01:03:15.860
And I was so upset and I realized, and I
said, I will never, never, ever promise

01:03:15.860 --> 01:03:19.370
my children anything that I can't fulfill.

01:03:19.940 --> 01:03:21.020
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

01:03:21.590 --> 01:03:26.190
Karla Brahms: And I was 30 I had to
get 30 to get my own first horse.

01:03:26.280 --> 01:03:28.830
Not because of my father,
but because of me.

01:03:30.270 --> 01:03:33.930
But you know, the funny thing
is, before my dad died, he always

01:03:33.930 --> 01:03:37.110
brought me a big sack of carrots.

01:03:37.650 --> 01:03:41.100
And that was his way of showing
it's okay, what you're doing.

01:03:41.160 --> 01:03:42.570
I respect what you're doing.

01:03:44.430 --> 01:03:45.600
Rupert Isaacson: It's very interesting.

01:03:45.600 --> 01:03:51.090
I, I've never quite understood this
resistance that parents have to

01:03:51.090 --> 01:03:52.920
fulfilling the dreams of their children.

01:03:53.770 --> 01:03:54.220
Particularly,

01:03:54.220 --> 01:03:59.710
Karla Brahms: but you know, when you,
when you were raised in a, in a family

01:04:00.040 --> 01:04:04.240
that has their destination and the
destination of my family was the boats

01:04:04.240 --> 01:04:06.880
and the river, and I was an alien.

01:04:08.500 --> 01:04:11.890
I was, I was infected with a horse
virus and nobody could understand

01:04:11.890 --> 01:04:16.360
it, but I was so sure that I
want to have horses one time.

01:04:17.350 --> 01:04:22.240
And the same thing is with that
with that certificate of being

01:04:22.240 --> 01:04:24.470
a horse therapeutic teacher.

01:04:25.850 --> 01:04:26.570
When I first.

01:04:27.495 --> 01:04:33.585
Realized how many, how much work that
is to get all the qualifications,

01:04:33.585 --> 01:04:37.145
to get through that process
of getting that certificate.

01:04:37.445 --> 01:04:43.565
It took me eight years, but I was
so sure that I want to do that, that

01:04:43.565 --> 01:04:46.295
nothing could get me off the path.

01:04:46.865 --> 01:04:47.135
Yeah.

01:04:47.615 --> 01:04:51.995
And I mean, today that certificate
is hanging on the horse rider Lou,

01:04:52.445 --> 01:04:57.605
because none of my clients ever
asked me what my qualification is.

01:04:58.175 --> 01:05:01.295
You need your qualifications for
the bank when you want some money.

01:05:01.685 --> 01:05:04.985
You need the qualification for the
insurance when something happens.

01:05:05.315 --> 01:05:05.435
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:05:05.435 --> 01:05:08.585
Karla Brahms: And you need the
qualification for when you want to

01:05:08.675 --> 01:05:10.925
go for, to a thought building, to a

01:05:10.975 --> 01:05:11.965
Rupert Isaacson: a
development, professional

01:05:11.970 --> 01:05:13.465
Karla Brahms: development,
development practice.

01:05:13.465 --> 01:05:14.585
And that's right.

01:05:14.945 --> 01:05:22.505
But what you, you offer for your
clients is always a question

01:05:22.505 --> 01:05:25.785
of, of relation Relationship.

01:05:25.845 --> 01:05:26.085
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:05:26.090 --> 01:05:27.195
Karla Brahms: Of relationship.

01:05:27.705 --> 01:05:33.735
And if that is good, then it doesn't
matter what qualification you have.

01:05:33.735 --> 01:05:34.035
Absolutely.

01:05:34.485 --> 01:05:40.905
Because you are a teacher or you are
a person that can create memories with

01:05:40.905 --> 01:05:42.855
the kids and the horses, or you're not,

01:05:43.815 --> 01:05:44.930
Rupert Isaacson: well,
what, what they say.

01:05:45.690 --> 01:05:46.530
I think it's so true.

01:05:46.530 --> 01:05:49.170
Is there in fact only two
emotions in the world?

01:05:49.170 --> 01:05:53.370
There's love and there's fear
and all of the other, and

01:05:53.370 --> 01:05:53.910
Karla Brahms: there's grief.

01:05:54.810 --> 01:05:55.080
Rupert Isaacson: Sorry,

01:05:55.500 --> 01:05:56.730
Karla Brahms: don't forget the grief.

01:05:57.210 --> 01:06:01.260
Rupert Isaacson: Well, let's go into
that because, because grief is, is,

01:06:01.260 --> 01:06:05.220
is a strange hybrid of the those two.

01:06:05.220 --> 01:06:08.100
It's almost as if they have a baby.

01:06:09.420 --> 01:06:15.030
And, but if one is coming from, so one
could be coming from fear with that

01:06:15.030 --> 01:06:21.360
qualification, fear of doing it wrong,
fear of an accident, fear of I don't know

01:06:22.080 --> 01:06:26.940
all the things one could be afraid of or
one could come at it from a point of love.

01:06:27.630 --> 01:06:29.970
Which one is gonna work
better for the client.

01:06:30.000 --> 01:06:34.830
You know, I think we can answer that
question, but you've brought up grief.

01:06:34.980 --> 01:06:35.370
Okay.

01:06:35.370 --> 01:06:39.390
So I just want to do
a small trigger alert.

01:06:39.470 --> 01:06:44.720
For those listeners, we are going to go
into a slightly different realm here.

01:06:44.720 --> 01:06:51.320
So if you are someone who is in
a particularly raw stage around

01:06:51.320 --> 01:06:55.580
grief right now, you might, or you
might not want to listen onto the

01:06:55.580 --> 01:06:57.080
next part of this conversation.

01:06:57.320 --> 01:07:02.390
If it's, if you feel it's too raw to
discuss grief at this point, perhaps.

01:07:02.750 --> 01:07:04.430
Switch off and come back to it later.

01:07:04.820 --> 01:07:07.520
If you feel that this is
for you, please go on.

01:07:07.550 --> 01:07:09.770
Okay, so I'm gonna just hit it straight.

01:07:10.640 --> 01:07:17.180
Carla's husband y who was also
a friend of mine, and this is

01:07:17.180 --> 01:07:18.230
actually a bit hard for me.

01:07:21.525 --> 01:07:23.240
Okay, so here's the story.

01:07:23.240 --> 01:07:28.130
I grew up not just with horses, but also
in a part of North London, which in the

01:07:28.130 --> 01:07:31.430
late eighties was a hotbed of music.

01:07:32.030 --> 01:07:36.380
And it was, there were two main forms of
music that came out of my neighborhood.

01:07:36.770 --> 01:07:38.690
One was reggae and Scar.

01:07:38.930 --> 01:07:43.880
It was a, a re finding of scar with
sort of white boy bands, taking

01:07:43.880 --> 01:07:47.720
the old Jamaican music bands like
Madness, bands like The Specials.

01:07:48.350 --> 01:07:49.160
Karla Brahms: Bad Manners.

01:07:49.580 --> 01:07:50.540
Rupert Isaacson: Bad Manners.

01:07:50.900 --> 01:07:54.860
They came out of my area of London
and then also what was called the

01:07:54.890 --> 01:07:56.390
New Wave of British Heavy Metal.

01:07:56.510 --> 01:08:00.320
So bands like Iron Maiden, those bands,
they were in my neighborhood as well.

01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:02.810
So there, and it was
really a similar energy.

01:08:02.930 --> 01:08:09.860
One went more rock, one meant went more
scar, but it was a sort of real outpouring

01:08:09.890 --> 01:08:15.290
of it came out of punk and it was sort
of the next stage on from punk and.

01:08:16.310 --> 01:08:18.440
There was a band called Bad Manners.

01:08:18.470 --> 01:08:22.550
And if you don't know bad manners
you need to go on YouTube right now

01:08:22.550 --> 01:08:26.060
and type in Nini, Nana, Nana Nunu,

01:08:26.060 --> 01:08:26.540
Karla Brahms: Nunu

01:08:27.440 --> 01:08:28.670
Rupert Isaacson: Nini, Nana, Nana nnu.

01:08:29.630 --> 01:08:34.070
And there was this huge male lead singer.

01:08:34.160 --> 01:08:36.530
There were skinheads
called Buster Blood Vessel

01:08:37.580 --> 01:08:39.080
Karla Brahms: with an enormous tongue,

01:08:39.380 --> 01:08:43.610
Rupert Isaacson: with an enormous
tongue who he always looked like he

01:08:43.610 --> 01:08:46.640
was about to have a heart attack on
stage and is still alive to this day.

01:08:46.700 --> 01:08:47.720
Karla Brahms: He's still alive.

01:08:47.720 --> 01:08:47.990
He is,

01:08:48.020 --> 01:08:50.070
Rupert Isaacson: Douglas, I think
his name is living in Bulgaria.

01:08:50.070 --> 01:08:52.345
Douglas, your husband told me I think he's

01:08:52.345 --> 01:08:52.665
Karla Brahms: called Douglas,

01:08:52.810 --> 01:08:55.480
Rupert Isaacson: who perhaps never learned
to read or write, I think, and then had

01:08:55.480 --> 01:08:57.970
managed to somehow carve himself out.

01:08:58.540 --> 01:08:59.080
Anyway,

01:09:01.240 --> 01:09:04.660
y my friend Y and Carla's

01:09:08.800 --> 01:09:17.230
life and soul partner, second
husband y when I first met you and

01:09:17.230 --> 01:09:20.470
I was chatting to Y and he said,
oh, oh, she still live in that part

01:09:20.470 --> 01:09:22.690
of London and that you come from.

01:09:22.690 --> 01:09:24.940
And I said, why are you talking
with that accent in English?

01:09:24.940 --> 01:09:26.620
It's like, well, I lived
there for a long time.

01:09:26.620 --> 01:09:29.920
And I was like, oh, I see you really
actually do talk English with that accent.

01:09:30.130 --> 01:09:33.370
You really did like
learn your English there.

01:09:33.550 --> 01:09:39.460
And it turns out he had played for
bad manners in their horn section.

01:09:39.460 --> 01:09:40.750
He was their trombonist.

01:09:40.960 --> 01:09:43.600
And any of you who know
about Scar know that.

01:09:45.400 --> 01:09:47.590
It's very much centered
around the horn section.

01:09:48.010 --> 01:09:50.460
And you, you've got to
be a really good player.

01:09:51.510 --> 01:09:56.820
And he'd gone, this boy from Heidelberg,
Heidelberg University, taken his chances

01:09:56.820 --> 01:10:00.210
in London as German boy and had made it.

01:10:00.910 --> 01:10:03.430
But at the end of it, he'd
come back to the Odin Vault

01:10:04.270 --> 01:10:06.400
and had connected with Carla.

01:10:06.400 --> 01:10:12.460
And one of the most amazing things, and
this still goes on to this day, is Carla

01:10:12.520 --> 01:10:22.450
and Y run a scar, reggae one day festival
at re in its the most amazing and magical

01:10:22.540 --> 01:10:26.050
evening that you can possibly spend.

01:10:26.100 --> 01:10:31.920
It was Y's band would play and
you dance all night and you'd

01:10:31.920 --> 01:10:35.430
fall asleep on cushions in the
forest or in hammocks, wake up and

01:10:35.430 --> 01:10:36.870
have breakfast and it's amazing.

01:10:36.870 --> 01:10:37.350
Anyway,

01:10:40.710 --> 01:10:46.520
not so long ago young contracted
cancer and he fought it off.

01:10:48.170 --> 01:10:49.250
Big, big bloke.

01:10:49.250 --> 01:10:50.150
Young, big young.

01:10:50.900 --> 01:10:51.950
One of those guys.

01:10:52.730 --> 01:10:57.350
Big, solid guy that you always
think of as big like a building.

01:10:57.350 --> 01:10:59.630
Building's gonna be there anyway.

01:10:59.630 --> 01:11:00.950
And then the cancer came back

01:11:03.080 --> 01:11:04.160
and and he died.

01:11:05.810 --> 01:11:07.970
And I remember feeling this sense of.

01:11:08.765 --> 01:11:10.355
Outrage about it.

01:11:11.465 --> 01:11:16.385
I remember coming down to visit
you bef shortly before he died,

01:11:17.435 --> 01:11:19.955
and he was at peace with it,
but he still looked so good.

01:11:19.955 --> 01:11:21.125
He was still big yarn.

01:11:21.275 --> 01:11:21.425
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:11:23.135 --> 01:11:26.435
Rupert Isaacson: And then I came down
after he died and I saw him and you'd

01:11:26.435 --> 01:11:30.635
laid him out and you'd laid him out
so beautifully in his leather pants

01:11:30.635 --> 01:11:32.735
and his leopard skin coat and his hat.

01:11:33.545 --> 01:11:34.505
Karla Brahms: That was his wish.

01:11:34.625 --> 01:11:36.245
Rupert Isaacson: And a,
and a joint in his hand.

01:11:36.245 --> 01:11:37.805
And, you know, perfect.

01:11:37.805 --> 01:11:42.185
And he looked so good, he looked
so handsome and he looked so young.

01:11:42.185 --> 01:11:45.725
And I was like, what the fuck
are you doing lying there young.

01:11:45.935 --> 01:11:49.715
Get the fuck up, fuck off with this

01:11:51.815 --> 01:11:53.435
lying there thing.

01:11:54.095 --> 01:11:56.105
You look so good.

01:11:56.105 --> 01:11:56.855
This is bullshit.

01:11:56.855 --> 01:11:58.655
You're, you're, you're
bullshitting us here.

01:12:01.895 --> 01:12:09.455
And of course, in the inter
intervening months, year, more than

01:12:09.455 --> 01:12:14.195
a year since this has happened,
you've of course begun, begun to

01:12:14.195 --> 01:12:17.825
turn your work towards grief, Carla.

01:12:18.275 --> 01:12:18.425
Yes.

01:12:19.445 --> 01:12:21.515
Please talk to us about this.

01:12:21.725 --> 01:12:24.515
I know a lot of, a lot of listeners,
a lot of viewers right now will

01:12:24.515 --> 01:12:27.095
be facing very similar situations.

01:12:29.165 --> 01:12:32.855
Karla Brahms: Well, actually
tomorrow it's exactly 14 months ago.

01:12:34.865 --> 01:12:35.435
And

01:12:35.485 --> 01:12:42.905
the thing is that a lot of things changed,
but I was absolutely sure that I want

01:12:42.905 --> 01:12:52.955
to stay here and I, I have the feeling
he's still around helping where he can.

01:12:53.315 --> 01:12:54.245
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, I, I get that

01:12:54.245 --> 01:12:56.715
Karla Brahms: very strongly,
not physically, but somehow.

01:12:58.965 --> 01:13:06.375
And, you know, riding that
grief wave is one of the biggest

01:13:08.115 --> 01:13:09.225
what's the English word for

01:13:09.225 --> 01:13:09.915
Rupert Isaacson: challenges?

01:13:10.035 --> 01:13:10.815
Karla Brahms: Challenges, yeah.

01:13:11.025 --> 01:13:14.655
Is one of the big
challenges that I ever did.

01:13:15.765 --> 01:13:16.305
But

01:13:18.525 --> 01:13:27.375
I also feel that with persons
like you and a few others,

01:13:29.475 --> 01:13:40.155
if you're opening yourself and not
turning the grief only into your system,

01:13:40.395 --> 01:13:43.635
if you open up, then it gets better.

01:13:45.135 --> 01:13:48.375
It'll never go away, but
you can handle it better.

01:13:50.415 --> 01:13:58.855
And, the thing is that I, I realized
that what helped me most are my animals.

01:14:00.265 --> 01:14:09.625
The place here, and actually a picture
I, I drew in my training when I, when

01:14:09.625 --> 01:14:16.455
I got the NIG practitioner, we, one
had one time had a a training that

01:14:16.455 --> 01:14:19.005
was called the, the, the life path.

01:14:19.965 --> 01:14:23.745
And there you draw a picture
of yourself as an old woman

01:14:23.865 --> 01:14:25.875
or as an elder, elder person.

01:14:27.435 --> 01:14:30.225
And the picture I drew that time was this.

01:14:30.945 --> 01:14:31.605
Can you see it?

01:14:32.985 --> 01:14:34.215
Yes, I do.

01:14:34.215 --> 01:14:34.575
Beautiful.

01:14:34.575 --> 01:14:36.885
That's me as an old woman.

01:14:37.425 --> 01:14:37.875
Okay.

01:14:38.175 --> 01:14:43.005
So, and that I drew that picture
before Yum took his first chemotherapy.

01:14:44.535 --> 01:14:50.745
We didn't even know if he could
handle it, if it would work,

01:14:51.405 --> 01:14:53.265
if we didn't know anything.

01:14:53.265 --> 01:15:00.105
We, we were just in the beginning of
all that cancer stuff that awaits you.

01:15:01.665 --> 01:15:02.775
And I drew that picture.

01:15:03.075 --> 01:15:09.865
And when I stood on my meet up position
and my therapist asked me oh, I think

01:15:09.865 --> 01:15:12.265
my meta position was the snail Gary.

01:15:12.775 --> 01:15:18.595
She said, oh, Gary how did Carla
get that elder woman on the picture?

01:15:19.105 --> 01:15:21.835
And Gary said, yes, that funny widow.

01:15:22.795 --> 01:15:26.245
And everybody was like,
and I was like, oh.

01:15:28.195 --> 01:15:34.975
And then I realized, well, that is
a possibility with that diagnosis

01:15:34.975 --> 01:15:40.165
and with that cancer, it's really
possible that I will survive young.

01:15:41.185 --> 01:15:47.515
And that picture of that funny,
happy widow is carrying me through

01:15:47.515 --> 01:15:52.255
all these things because I now,
that's me, that's inside me.

01:15:52.255 --> 01:15:54.865
That's my picture of me as an old person.

01:15:55.285 --> 01:15:56.395
Rupert Isaacson: What's
interesting is that you're in

01:15:56.395 --> 01:15:57.595
a dress, in a pair of heels.

01:15:57.595 --> 01:15:59.900
I don't think I've ever seen
you in a dress, a pair of heels.

01:16:04.285 --> 01:16:05.875
You have to get that dress in those shoes.

01:16:07.015 --> 01:16:07.525
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:16:10.495 --> 01:16:16.415
And, and so what I, what I really
try to do is now give persons in

01:16:16.415 --> 01:16:26.165
grief the possibility to also find
out what is their way in the future.

01:16:26.915 --> 01:16:31.025
Because when you lose someone,
you not only losing the person,

01:16:31.355 --> 01:16:33.185
but you lose your self identity.

01:16:34.475 --> 01:16:35.765
I'm a widow now.

01:16:36.350 --> 01:16:40.170
I'm not the husband the,
the wife of Jan anymore.

01:16:40.200 --> 01:16:41.790
I'm not the, the we.

01:16:42.660 --> 01:16:42.810
Yeah.

01:16:43.230 --> 01:16:49.890
I'm now an I and I have to find out
what is my identity in the future.

01:16:51.390 --> 01:16:57.300
And that is one of the most hardest
points in grieving that you have

01:16:57.300 --> 01:17:02.460
to find out who are you and what
are your dreams in the future.

01:17:02.460 --> 01:17:03.120
Mm-hmm.

01:17:03.720 --> 01:17:04.890
Is there a future?

01:17:06.000 --> 01:17:09.510
The thing is, when you live in
a partnership, there's the, the

01:17:09.510 --> 01:17:11.700
present and there's a lot of future.

01:17:12.420 --> 01:17:16.500
And as soon as your partner dies,
there's the present, which is not very

01:17:16.500 --> 01:17:20.220
important, but there's a lot of farenheit.

01:17:20.440 --> 01:17:21.120
Rupert Isaacson: A lot of past,

01:17:22.635 --> 01:17:22.935
Karla Brahms: a lot of past.

01:17:23.955 --> 01:17:31.905
And right now I'm at the point
where past and future are equal.

01:17:31.905 --> 01:17:33.885
Again, I'm in the present.

01:17:34.485 --> 01:17:41.355
The past is important, but the
future is saying, hi, I'm here.

01:17:41.775 --> 01:17:42.735
What are we gonna do?

01:17:44.265 --> 01:17:50.955
And what helped me to get into that
state, that the, the future is present

01:17:51.015 --> 01:17:56.385
is, is important again, is that I have.

01:17:56.805 --> 01:18:02.925
Had all these experiences with my horses,
with my cat and dog, with my friends with

01:18:02.925 --> 01:18:09.765
you, and with the, with the inner pictures
I was drawing when young was sick.

01:18:13.605 --> 01:18:20.655
So I want to help other people in grief
to benefit from that experience I made

01:18:21.735 --> 01:18:27.135
and offer that to them so they can come
to my house for a kind of grief retreat.

01:18:27.795 --> 01:18:27.915
Yeah.

01:18:28.215 --> 01:18:28.935
For a weekend.

01:18:30.135 --> 01:18:34.605
And we can do whatever they want or
we can do nothing and they can just

01:18:35.775 --> 01:18:38.595
go into the forest, which helps alone.

01:18:39.525 --> 01:18:43.905
They can just snuggle up on the couch, on
the sofa with a dog, which helps a lot.

01:18:44.685 --> 01:18:47.955
They can lie in bed with a
cat on top, which helps a lot.

01:18:48.465 --> 01:18:55.455
And my animals are always finding
the right way to help people.

01:18:56.415 --> 01:18:59.085
Not only my horses, but
also my cat and my dog.

01:19:00.045 --> 01:19:00.375
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:19:00.915 --> 01:19:04.095
Karla Brahms: And I realized that
being together with people who

01:19:04.095 --> 01:19:08.535
are also in grief helps because
they speak the same language.

01:19:10.590 --> 01:19:16.845
And, and having like meals
together, cooking meals together

01:19:18.045 --> 01:19:20.175
is also a part of self caring.

01:19:21.975 --> 01:19:24.615
And that is what people
in grief have to learn.

01:19:25.410 --> 01:19:32.430
To, to be good to themselves to
help their inner identity to heal.

01:19:34.650 --> 01:19:35.730
And that's what I wanna do.

01:19:37.560 --> 01:19:40.290
Rupert Isaacson: You know, we
talked about this before we

01:19:40.290 --> 01:19:41.880
switched the record button on.

01:19:42.120 --> 01:19:44.910
Death and grief in our culture is taboo.

01:19:45.420 --> 01:19:45.720
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:19:46.020 --> 01:19:46.980
Rupert Isaacson: It's not allowed.

01:19:47.520 --> 01:19:48.930
So we don't see the dead.

01:19:50.230 --> 01:19:56.860
You know, I'd really appreciated that
you had young lay out and grim joke,

01:19:56.860 --> 01:20:01.390
but it was handy that it was January
because he lay there for, for some days,

01:20:01.390 --> 01:20:05.770
so that many of us who wanted to say
goodbye could drive down and say goodbye.

01:20:07.240 --> 01:20:10.330
If it had been high summer, we wouldn't
have been able to do it so long.

01:20:10.450 --> 01:20:10.780
All right.

01:20:11.560 --> 01:20:12.190
And

01:20:12.250 --> 01:20:14.200
Karla Brahms: there are cool packs
that you can put under the packet.

01:20:14.200 --> 01:20:14.650
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:20:15.190 --> 01:20:16.840
And one has to think about these things.

01:20:17.470 --> 01:20:25.545
But you provided a ritual
and you provided a ceremony

01:20:27.675 --> 01:20:31.095
that allowed us to remember that
death and life are the same thing.

01:20:31.785 --> 01:20:32.055
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:20:32.505 --> 01:20:40.125
Rupert Isaacson: And that the fields of
consciousness are not dependent upon.

01:20:40.605 --> 01:20:40.875
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:20:41.415 --> 01:20:45.435
Rupert Isaacson: The material
density of the fields.

01:20:47.670 --> 01:20:56.310
Producing matter, but at the same
time, because the density of the

01:20:56.310 --> 01:21:01.050
fields producing matter is part of
the beauty of reality and creation.

01:21:01.410 --> 01:21:08.880
We, of course, form emotional attachments
to living beings who are these

01:21:11.760 --> 01:21:16.080
dense moments of the wave before
it becomes part of the ocean again.

01:21:19.650 --> 01:21:25.380
And we need to ride those waves.

01:21:25.425 --> 01:21:28.620
And, and I really appre, you're
one of the only people I know

01:21:29.160 --> 01:21:32.520
outside of perhaps Ireland, where
they still lay out the dead.

01:21:33.570 --> 01:21:34.440
Who

01:21:36.870 --> 01:21:37.860
did that?

01:21:42.480 --> 01:21:46.920
The, I think most people who
go through grief and everyone's

01:21:46.920 --> 01:21:47.910
going to go through grief.

01:21:47.910 --> 01:21:50.490
You can't be alive without
going through grief.

01:21:51.780 --> 01:21:56.460
Everyone who goes through
grief in our culture has to go

01:21:56.490 --> 01:21:58.080
through it alone, pretty much.

01:21:59.250 --> 01:22:03.060
Karla Brahms: And that is the thing
we, we have a lack of information

01:22:03.240 --> 01:22:09.510
in our culture about handling dead
people and handling the death.

01:22:09.615 --> 01:22:14.415
I knew that you are allowed to keep
the body for at least three days,

01:22:15.135 --> 01:22:21.375
and I knew that it is important
to do what feels right for you.

01:22:22.155 --> 01:22:27.815
For example there was a time, I
think five years ago I saw a movie.

01:22:29.225 --> 01:22:33.995
And in this movie there was a scene
where a young lady died and her friend

01:22:34.205 --> 01:22:36.845
washed her body and put on the clothes.

01:22:37.805 --> 01:22:44.225
And immediately I thought, oh, I want to
do the, to the persons I love, because

01:22:44.225 --> 01:22:51.635
that's the last step of respect, and
I don't want any other to do that.

01:22:53.045 --> 01:22:58.595
And so when Jan's father died in 2020,
in the part, in the time of Corona,

01:22:59.135 --> 01:23:02.015
well, he was 88 and it was, it was okay.

01:23:02.315 --> 01:23:06.455
And his dad was also at home and,
and all together with his family.

01:23:06.995 --> 01:23:11.525
And I said, am I allowed
to wash him and clothe him?

01:23:11.975 --> 01:23:13.655
And y said, I will help you.

01:23:14.165 --> 01:23:18.315
And his, his son, his younger
son that he had from the first

01:23:18.315 --> 01:23:20.025
marriage said, I help you too.

01:23:20.385 --> 01:23:24.645
So we three, we washed Y's
dad, and we closed him.

01:23:24.675 --> 01:23:26.325
We, we shaved him.

01:23:26.440 --> 01:23:31.185
He, we cut his fingernails and
everything and we laid him out

01:23:31.485 --> 01:23:33.465
in, in his home, in his home bed.

01:23:35.085 --> 01:23:39.405
And when Yu died, it was exactly
clear that I will do that for him too.

01:23:40.755 --> 01:23:46.425
And my friend, or our friend
and his son helped us.

01:23:46.425 --> 01:23:49.815
So we three were washing
and, and clothing yu.

01:23:51.345 --> 01:23:56.055
And I'm so glad because shortly before
he died, he said, I want to be burned.

01:23:56.745 --> 01:24:03.345
I want to wear that Leo parts echo that
jacket, the leather pants, the creepers

01:24:03.825 --> 01:24:06.015
and the black shirt and everything.

01:24:06.015 --> 01:24:11.235
Afterwards you do as, as
it pleases you, I'm dead.

01:24:11.295 --> 01:24:13.575
I don't care if I lie in the forest or

01:24:15.915 --> 01:24:17.715
if I lie on the, on the graveyard.

01:24:17.745 --> 01:24:20.115
Please do that for yourself.

01:24:20.265 --> 01:24:23.955
You have to have a place where
to go and to remember me.

01:24:24.645 --> 01:24:29.835
And I was so glad about that because
we could do whatever felt good for us.

01:24:29.895 --> 01:24:35.385
And I never had the feeling that
everything I did with a, the, the,

01:24:35.385 --> 01:24:41.535
the ceremony or with a, where he,
where he, his, his ashes is buried.

01:24:42.345 --> 01:24:46.095
It, it, it never had, I never had
the feeling I'm doing it wrong

01:24:46.125 --> 01:24:48.915
because he said, do it as you please.

01:24:50.565 --> 01:24:58.275
And, and I think that that is something
that helped me too to get through all

01:24:58.275 --> 01:25:02.475
that hard times because I knew he was.

01:25:02.895 --> 01:25:04.575
He was right with everything I did.

01:25:06.525 --> 01:25:08.595
Rupert Isaacson: We don't really
have, again, we talked about

01:25:08.595 --> 01:25:09.855
this before we hit record.

01:25:09.855 --> 01:25:11.985
We don't have a language
around grief, do we?

01:25:12.135 --> 01:25:12.615
Karla Brahms: That is it.

01:25:12.615 --> 01:25:16.665
Rupert Isaacson: So, so one of the
difficulties I think is that people feel,

01:25:16.665 --> 01:25:24.945
because it's a taboo, that although they
want to give comfort or offer comfort,

01:25:25.755 --> 01:25:29.145
they feel one of two things usually.

01:25:29.145 --> 01:25:30.735
One is avoidance.

01:25:30.795 --> 01:25:35.205
I don't want to be near death
because death is a contagion.

01:25:35.265 --> 01:25:36.255
What if I catch it?

01:25:36.495 --> 01:25:40.635
I think that isn't, but the
other one is, which is comes

01:25:40.635 --> 01:25:44.475
from a, a slightly better places.

01:25:44.925 --> 01:25:47.865
I don't want to intrude,
I dunno what to say.

01:25:47.865 --> 01:25:49.605
I don't want to say the wrong thing.

01:25:49.605 --> 01:25:49.665
Hmm.

01:25:50.565 --> 01:25:54.045
So what people then do is they say
nothing or they, as you said, they

01:25:54.045 --> 01:25:59.325
come and say to you, platitudes
about how you have to let it go or

01:25:59.325 --> 01:26:03.255
something like that, which meaningless.

01:26:03.705 --> 01:26:03.825
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:26:03.905 --> 01:26:04.885
And sometimes it weird

01:26:05.000 --> 01:26:06.590
Rupert Isaacson: and
frankly hurtful, you know?

01:26:06.650 --> 01:26:06.770
Yeah.

01:26:06.820 --> 01:26:10.630
Because no, the whole point is
one is not supposed to let it go.

01:26:10.630 --> 01:26:13.420
One is supposed to experience it.

01:26:14.320 --> 01:26:20.320
It's a little bit like somebody saying
you should not experience birth.

01:26:21.010 --> 01:26:21.340
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:26:21.850 --> 01:26:22.090
Rupert Isaacson: You know,

01:26:22.125 --> 01:26:24.730
Karla Brahms: and, and you can't
tell anybody how it feels to

01:26:24.730 --> 01:26:28.780
give birth, but because you have
to, to have to go through it.

01:26:30.130 --> 01:26:33.640
Rupert Isaacson: And it's gonna
both suck and be ecstatic.

01:26:33.910 --> 01:26:39.445
And I think there is an ecstatic
side to death because what in fact

01:26:39.445 --> 01:26:43.120
there really is, if you, if you think
about what the word ecstasy means,

01:26:43.330 --> 01:26:45.640
it means to be outside of oneself.

01:26:45.700 --> 01:26:47.290
X static.

01:26:47.950 --> 01:26:51.790
The static is the state X is
outside in Latin, we are out.

01:26:51.880 --> 01:26:55.240
So when we are in ecstasy,
we are outside of ourselves.

01:26:55.840 --> 01:26:58.270
And that can be a positive
or a negative feeling.

01:26:58.270 --> 01:27:02.200
We tend to assume it's a positive
thing feeling, but it can be both.

01:27:02.710 --> 01:27:07.090
It can be an ecstasy of pain, an
ecstasy of torment, an ecstasy of joy.

01:27:08.260 --> 01:27:10.090
We'd rather have the ecstasy of joy.

01:27:10.450 --> 01:27:14.050
But with something like birth
or death, it's going to be both.

01:27:15.040 --> 01:27:17.560
Karla Brahms: And you know the
energy, sorry when I interrupt.

01:27:17.560 --> 01:27:17.620
Yeah.

01:27:18.010 --> 01:27:23.470
But the energy that is released
when a child is born is the

01:27:23.470 --> 01:27:25.690
same when somebody dies.

01:27:26.620 --> 01:27:31.300
You know, the day before young died, I
was standing under the shower and I had

01:27:31.300 --> 01:27:33.040
the feeling, oh, I have to go quickly.

01:27:33.040 --> 01:27:35.350
I have to, I, I don't
want to miss anything.

01:27:35.770 --> 01:27:38.800
And I ran down to him and
I said, can you imagine?

01:27:39.280 --> 01:27:42.850
When I was under the shower,
it exactly felt the day like

01:27:42.850 --> 01:27:43.930
when the children were born.

01:27:43.930 --> 01:27:46.660
And I first took my
first shower after birth.

01:27:47.530 --> 01:27:49.960
It was the same, exactly the same feeling.

01:27:50.950 --> 01:27:52.330
And he was laughing.

01:27:52.390 --> 01:27:56.380
And then, then I said, did you
ever imagine that you were more

01:27:56.380 --> 01:27:58.180
important than the horses one time?

01:27:58.690 --> 01:28:02.710
And we both sat there laughing as
hard as we as we could, because

01:28:02.710 --> 01:28:04.480
that was always our running joke.

01:28:04.720 --> 01:28:09.250
Young always said, okay with Carla,
first come the horses, then the kids.

01:28:09.250 --> 01:28:15.850
And some way back then I come and we
always had much fun about that saying.

01:28:16.360 --> 01:28:21.490
And it was exactly like I said,
young was in the first place.

01:28:21.730 --> 01:28:29.530
And, and realizing that this, this
feeling was the same, gave me that, that

01:28:29.560 --> 01:28:31.990
feeling that everything is connected.

01:28:33.190 --> 01:28:33.400
Mm-hmm.

01:28:33.430 --> 01:28:39.490
Like when somebody is born, you
don't have a, an a, an impact on it.

01:28:39.550 --> 01:28:41.680
And when somebody dies neither.

01:28:43.180 --> 01:28:46.360
So maybe that is what all life is about.

01:28:46.360 --> 01:28:56.680
That, that the energy that is between life
and death is, is so sacred that you, that

01:28:56.680 --> 01:29:08.260
you can only be like in a, in a state of,
of wonder to keep every day a little bit

01:29:10.150 --> 01:29:13.900
in a, in a, in a sacred way, feel alive.

01:29:14.305 --> 01:29:14.605
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:29:14.605 --> 01:29:17.515
This is why we must have ceremony
and ritual, because ceremony and

01:29:17.515 --> 01:29:20.155
ritual are the acknowledgement
of the sacred, aren't they?

01:29:20.485 --> 01:29:20.755
Yeah.

01:29:20.755 --> 01:29:24.175
It, it, it says, I recognize
that this is sacred.

01:29:24.175 --> 01:29:31.255
And I, I remember being, when I came down
to be with, to visit when I, and Rowan

01:29:31.255 --> 01:29:34.585
was with me and young was still alive.

01:29:35.155 --> 01:29:38.005
The moment I walked into the
room, I could feel the sacred.

01:29:38.515 --> 01:29:38.965
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:29:39.365 --> 01:29:42.665
Rupert Isaacson: And then when I came
back and he was gone, but he was laid

01:29:42.665 --> 01:29:45.545
out the same feeling, the same thing.

01:29:45.905 --> 01:29:48.635
But our culture denies us this.

01:29:48.635 --> 01:29:50.615
And it's so interesting.

01:29:50.645 --> 01:29:54.575
Back to earlier in this
conversation, we were talking about

01:29:57.395 --> 01:30:01.925
putting to death all the wise
women, you know, 400 years ago.

01:30:02.075 --> 01:30:06.965
So now when we discover something
like your, you know, neuro imaginative

01:30:06.965 --> 01:30:11.555
gestalt and it's effectively shamanic
process with science behind it, but

01:30:11.615 --> 01:30:13.355
shamanism also has science behind it.

01:30:13.355 --> 01:30:14.195
There are things going on

01:30:14.405 --> 01:30:14.675
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:30:14.975 --> 01:30:17.675
Rupert Isaacson: That we
now consider in our culture.

01:30:17.675 --> 01:30:23.285
This is something new when actually the
original horse people were always doing

01:30:23.315 --> 01:30:26.705
this because this is, you know, part
of what it means to be a human being.

01:30:28.730 --> 01:30:28.950
Now.

01:30:28.955 --> 01:30:37.145
Now, when I entered that space,
that sacred space with Jan, both on

01:30:37.145 --> 01:30:38.675
the way to death and after death.

01:30:39.075 --> 01:30:42.135
I realized this felt totally new to me.

01:30:42.705 --> 01:30:48.230
So, so yeah, I felt that I, this was
something unfamiliar to me and new

01:30:48.230 --> 01:30:57.350
to me in my fifties, which shouldn't
be, should, should be, should have

01:30:57.350 --> 01:31:00.590
been very much a part of life.

01:31:01.910 --> 01:31:07.190
And just as we're cut off from nature
in so many ways, cutting our ourselves

01:31:07.190 --> 01:31:10.680
off from life, from death, from birth,
you know, most people meant not everyone

01:31:10.680 --> 01:31:12.180
attends the birth of their children.

01:31:12.450 --> 01:31:14.070
I was lucky I did get to do that.

01:31:14.910 --> 01:31:19.560
So you now are turning your work
to this, to this very problem.

01:31:21.390 --> 01:31:22.140
Karla Brahms: I try to,

01:31:22.320 --> 01:31:22.680
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:31:23.070 --> 01:31:26.910
Te tell us about, I mean, you, you,
you've, you've mentioned it in brief and I

01:31:26.910 --> 01:31:29.610
know you're going to be offering retreats.

01:31:36.175 --> 01:31:37.215
I just like to, ah.

01:31:37.965 --> 01:31:39.285
I'd like to know your thoughts on it.

01:31:39.375 --> 01:31:39.525
Yeah.

01:31:40.635 --> 01:31:41.865
What do you, what do you see?

01:31:41.865 --> 01:31:44.535
How do you see it developing
what you're doing?

01:31:44.535 --> 01:31:48.015
And are you, are you reaching
out to others who are beginning

01:31:48.015 --> 01:31:49.635
to offer the same type of work?

01:31:50.055 --> 01:31:53.715
Are there others out there in the
equestrian, the equine assisted

01:31:53.715 --> 01:31:55.845
world, also looking at grief?

01:31:55.845 --> 01:31:57.465
Are you in contact with them?

01:31:57.765 --> 01:31:58.635
Where's this going?

01:31:58.635 --> 01:32:00.705
I think this is a field
we should all be aware of.

01:32:01.155 --> 01:32:01.665
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:32:02.395 --> 01:32:08.965
That is a thing that I start now to
get connected with other people who

01:32:08.965 --> 01:32:16.515
are working with horses and offer grief
therapy or grief accompanying with horses.

01:32:17.505 --> 01:32:25.525
And it's like I met a community
in the internet, it's called Toast

01:32:25.525 --> 01:32:29.865
Heden where people in grief can
talk to other people in grief.

01:32:30.555 --> 01:32:33.555
Rupert Isaacson: Helden is a, is
a, is a, is a hero, by the way.

01:32:33.625 --> 01:32:35.065
In Yeah.

01:32:35.065 --> 01:32:35.155
Karla Brahms: What

01:32:35.545 --> 01:32:40.025
Rupert Isaacson: in, in English, just
a to helden would be grief heroes.

01:32:40.115 --> 01:32:40.535
Yes.

01:32:40.535 --> 01:32:41.375
Would that, yeah, yeah,

01:32:42.500 --> 01:32:44.795
Karla Brahms: yeah, yeah,

01:32:45.665 --> 01:32:45.905
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:32:46.865 --> 01:32:47.315
Okay.

01:32:47.315 --> 01:32:49.235
So I just wanted to
translate that for people.

01:32:49.235 --> 01:32:49.295
Yeah.

01:32:49.590 --> 01:32:49.750
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:32:49.835 --> 01:32:50.105
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:32:50.795 --> 01:32:52.535
So you met this, you found this community.

01:32:52.535 --> 01:32:53.765
How did you find this community?

01:32:55.250 --> 01:32:56.000
Karla Brahms: I don't remember.

01:32:56.330 --> 01:32:56.600
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:32:56.600 --> 01:32:56.750
Yeah.

01:32:56.750 --> 01:32:56.990
I think

01:32:56.990 --> 01:33:02.730
Karla Brahms: it found me and, and
I realized that writing and talking

01:33:02.730 --> 01:33:05.490
about my emotions really helped.

01:33:06.960 --> 01:33:14.130
And so about over that community, I have a
lot of contact with people who are working

01:33:14.160 --> 01:33:20.600
with grief and, and that is an amazing
new field that's opening up with a lot of

01:33:20.600 --> 01:33:29.000
possibilities to learn and to, to bring
my experiences into, into that community.

01:33:30.080 --> 01:33:36.140
And I don't know where the journey
is going to, I mean, look at us about

01:33:36.170 --> 01:33:42.380
that one click in the internet to
connect my friend Sarah with you.

01:33:42.800 --> 01:33:43.100
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:33:43.190 --> 01:33:46.550
Karla Brahms: We got in touch and Matt is
each other, and now we're sitting here.

01:33:47.030 --> 01:33:47.300
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:33:47.510 --> 01:33:50.450
Karla Brahms: And I mean, with the,
with the energy, it was the same thing.

01:33:50.870 --> 01:33:58.220
I was looking for a method and I found
this institution and, and now I'm, I'm

01:33:58.310 --> 01:34:04.220
doing that teaching training people
for the NIG practitioner with horses.

01:34:04.850 --> 01:34:09.440
And, and I never dreamed five years
ago, or six years ago when I started

01:34:09.440 --> 01:34:11.630
with it, that it would come this far.

01:34:12.890 --> 01:34:16.070
I have the feeling that
when you follow your heart.

01:34:16.760 --> 01:34:20.180
When you follow your dreams, when you
have dreams and you follow your dreams

01:34:20.930 --> 01:34:24.560
you don't have to do a lot of things.

01:34:24.620 --> 01:34:26.810
Sometimes the things they just develop.

01:34:27.410 --> 01:34:27.590
Yeah.

01:34:27.920 --> 01:34:34.600
And, and, but you have to be open to new
chances and yeah, step over your shadow,

01:34:35.860 --> 01:34:38.020
get out of your comfort zone, some say.

01:34:38.440 --> 01:34:42.130
But just trust yourself and try.

01:34:43.690 --> 01:34:47.170
All you can do is fail and
even failing is an experience.

01:34:49.180 --> 01:34:52.190
Rupert Isaacson: if you're a horse
nerd, and if you're on this podcast,

01:34:52.590 --> 01:34:57.490
I'm guessing you are, then you've
probably also always wondered a little

01:34:57.490 --> 01:34:59.740
bit about the old master system.

01:35:00.205 --> 01:35:01.515
of dressage training.

01:35:01.555 --> 01:35:10.125
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:35:10.195 --> 01:35:16.475
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:35:16.485 --> 01:35:23.005
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:35:23.055 --> 01:35:25.825
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:35:25.885 --> 01:35:26.625
Intrigued?

01:35:26.825 --> 01:35:27.685
Like to know more?

01:35:28.555 --> 01:35:31.385
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:35:33.085 --> 01:35:34.775
Check out the free introduction course.

01:35:35.335 --> 01:35:35.855
Take it from there.

01:35:36.359 --> 01:35:36.599
All right.

01:35:36.599 --> 01:35:40.559
I'm, I'm just thinking of all the,
all the various types of therapeutic

01:35:40.559 --> 01:35:44.999
riding or therapeutic equine things
that are out there in the world.

01:35:44.999 --> 01:35:49.639
As you know, I, I work in many
countries and I don't see this offered.

01:35:50.694 --> 01:35:50.984
Okay.

01:35:51.039 --> 01:35:52.209
I am not offering it.

01:35:54.124 --> 01:35:54.414
Okay.

01:35:54.939 --> 01:35:55.929
We should be offering it.

01:35:56.959 --> 01:35:57.919
How do we offer it?

01:35:57.949 --> 01:36:01.729
Well, if I was going to offer
it, I would need to work with

01:36:01.729 --> 01:36:05.299
somebody who knew what to do.

01:36:05.419 --> 01:36:06.499
That would be you.

01:36:07.369 --> 01:36:16.579
So if I said, okay, we need to add this to
our practice, then I will reach out to my

01:36:16.579 --> 01:36:22.179
friend Carla Brahms and say, Carla, would
you please come and lead some retreats?

01:36:22.719 --> 01:36:26.049
Perhaps in Spain, perhaps when we
go to the US perhaps, would you come

01:36:26.049 --> 01:36:29.889
and help some people there, get going
with this or something like that?

01:36:30.129 --> 01:36:32.409
Or even if you just
talk to them over Zoom.

01:36:32.999 --> 01:36:36.179
But I think it's really interesting
to me now that we're having this

01:36:36.179 --> 01:36:42.869
conversation, one would think if our
job with equine assisted stuff is to

01:36:43.919 --> 01:36:48.809
alleviate suffering, I think we can
all agree that that is sort of our job.

01:36:49.319 --> 01:36:49.409
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:36:50.259 --> 01:36:53.139
Rupert Isaacson: And we are very
used to looking at that in certain

01:36:53.139 --> 01:36:55.809
contexts like autism or trauma.

01:36:56.319 --> 01:36:57.399
Of course grief is trauma.

01:36:57.909 --> 01:36:58.299
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:36:58.419 --> 01:37:05.889
Rupert Isaacson: It's such an obvious
glaring hole and absence in our field.

01:37:05.979 --> 01:37:13.149
The taboo that we talked about has
actually permeated our own work.

01:37:14.409 --> 01:37:14.559
Hmm.

01:37:14.559 --> 01:37:19.899
We are not offering this as equine
assisted practitioners of any kind.

01:37:19.899 --> 01:37:20.619
You are.

01:37:22.569 --> 01:37:24.729
Karla Brahms: But you know,
I think, I think that every

01:37:24.729 --> 01:37:28.759
person has experience of grief.

01:37:28.999 --> 01:37:29.329
Yes.

01:37:29.359 --> 01:37:32.479
'cause grief is not only
connected to losing a person.

01:37:32.929 --> 01:37:37.639
You can also grieve if you move
from a town to another, you

01:37:37.639 --> 01:37:39.709
lose your, your, your high.

01:37:40.699 --> 01:37:41.119
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:37:41.119 --> 01:37:41.629
Your homeland,

01:37:41.634 --> 01:37:43.189
Karla Brahms: you're,
you're losing your job.

01:37:43.519 --> 01:37:44.809
You're losing your.

01:37:45.244 --> 01:37:46.474
Your cat, your dog,

01:37:46.594 --> 01:37:47.284
Rupert Isaacson: your identity,

01:37:47.284 --> 01:37:48.304
Karla Brahms: using friendship.

01:37:48.784 --> 01:37:51.229
All that is, is, is, yes.

01:37:51.229 --> 01:37:56.574
Is having grief in, in, in its
tail and working with the nurses.

01:37:56.574 --> 01:37:56.664
Rupert Isaacson: Right?

01:37:56.664 --> 01:37:57.234
Absolutely.

01:37:57.324 --> 01:37:57.594
Yeah.

01:37:57.599 --> 01:38:01.554
Karla Brahms: And, and I mean, you,
as a parent of an artistic child, you

01:38:01.554 --> 01:38:06.294
lose your, your vision of the future.

01:38:06.539 --> 01:38:07.074
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, yeah.

01:38:07.314 --> 01:38:09.789
Karla Brahms: When you, remember,
when you got the diagnosis from, from

01:38:09.894 --> 01:38:13.464
bro, it, it hits you like a baseball.

01:38:13.814 --> 01:38:14.144
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

01:38:14.144 --> 01:38:16.544
Well, particularly because
they tell you there is no,

01:38:17.084 --> 01:38:18.404
Karla Brahms: and, and
that's the thing you,

01:38:18.404 --> 01:38:18.674
Rupert Isaacson: which

01:38:18.674 --> 01:38:21.914
Karla Brahms: is so at the moment
where you are responsible visions,

01:38:21.914 --> 01:38:27.224
you're inner, inner landscape is
shattered, then you feel grief.

01:38:27.614 --> 01:38:31.829
And it doesn't only rely on on,
on losing a person you love.

01:38:32.729 --> 01:38:33.479
Rupert Isaacson: That is very true.

01:38:33.989 --> 01:38:37.769
Karla Brahms: And the, the good
thing about working with horses

01:38:37.799 --> 01:38:40.439
is that they carry that too.

01:38:40.739 --> 01:38:47.489
If you mention it or not, they just
carry it and they, they heal it.

01:38:48.384 --> 01:38:48.674
They

01:38:48.674 --> 01:38:48.794
must

01:38:48.894 --> 01:38:49.514
Karla Brahms: all go through it.

01:38:49.514 --> 01:38:56.879
Being together with the horses and, and
offering the clients to feel their needs

01:38:58.049 --> 01:39:02.249
and to, to speak about their needs.

01:39:03.419 --> 01:39:06.509
That's, that's only,
that's most you can do.

01:39:06.514 --> 01:39:08.039
That's, that's the best you can do.

01:39:08.789 --> 01:39:11.339
And if you, if you offer a surrounding.

01:39:11.789 --> 01:39:15.569
Where they can find out what they need.

01:39:17.189 --> 01:39:18.899
You don't have to do much more.

01:39:19.679 --> 01:39:20.489
You know what I mean?

01:39:20.819 --> 01:39:21.599
Rupert Isaacson: I do, I do.

01:39:21.599 --> 01:39:24.029
I'm just thinking about the
horses themselves as well.

01:39:24.749 --> 01:39:32.369
Most horses living in therapeutic stables
must be, must experience grief because

01:39:32.759 --> 01:39:40.889
the vast majority of them are donation
horses that have been given away.

01:39:42.189 --> 01:39:48.249
And many of them, most horses, as we know,
go through several big life and herd Yeah.

01:39:49.269 --> 01:39:51.069
Changes in my,

01:39:51.234 --> 01:39:53.829
Karla Brahms: and they can't,
they can't decide with which

01:39:53.829 --> 01:39:56.559
horse they are neighbors.

01:39:56.889 --> 01:39:57.849
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:39:58.599 --> 01:39:59.469
Absolutely.

01:39:59.469 --> 01:40:02.199
They're weaned and then
they're sold and then, yeah.

01:40:02.199 --> 01:40:02.209
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:40:02.559 --> 01:40:02.769
Yeah.

01:40:02.829 --> 01:40:04.329
Rupert Isaacson: There
must be so much grief.

01:40:04.779 --> 01:40:05.259
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:40:05.799 --> 01:40:08.319
Rupert Isaacson: I'm thinking about
my own herd, you know, so I've got

01:40:09.009 --> 01:40:15.249
two horses in my herd who I bred,
so they've always been with us.

01:40:15.519 --> 01:40:15.669
Karla Brahms: Mm.

01:40:15.729 --> 01:40:18.279
Rupert Isaacson: And it really is
interesting, the differences in their

01:40:18.279 --> 01:40:23.919
behavior and their relationship with
other horses and with us compared to

01:40:23.919 --> 01:40:28.959
the other guys who came up through
a slightly more normal thing.

01:40:28.959 --> 01:40:32.019
And then I've got another horse welt.

01:40:33.039 --> 01:40:34.239
I bought him as a foal.

01:40:34.239 --> 01:40:39.009
He grew up with the breeder, but then
was with us from the age of three.

01:40:39.549 --> 01:40:39.639
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:40:41.949 --> 01:40:42.969
Rupert Isaacson: And
he's a little different.

01:40:42.969 --> 01:40:44.349
He's a little closer to those guys.

01:40:44.349 --> 01:40:47.979
But say my horse zag, for example,
you know, very well, who's, you

01:40:47.979 --> 01:40:49.779
know, superb, amazing horse.

01:40:50.859 --> 01:40:54.759
He's probably been passed around
quite a bit, you know and his way

01:40:54.759 --> 01:40:58.689
of looking at the world is wounded.

01:40:58.779 --> 01:41:04.659
There's no question, there's no
question he gives from that wound

01:41:06.669 --> 01:41:07.539
enormous healing.

01:41:10.899 --> 01:41:11.889
But you are right.

01:41:14.049 --> 01:41:17.709
I don't think we consider, I mean, we,
we consider it within equine wellbeing.

01:41:17.709 --> 01:41:17.949
Yes.

01:41:17.949 --> 01:41:22.059
But now that we're on the subject of
grief, we don't really consider, I think

01:41:22.509 --> 01:41:27.849
much how in grief a lot of horses must be

01:41:28.479 --> 01:41:28.929
Karla Brahms: Hmm.

01:41:29.019 --> 01:41:31.989
Rupert Isaacson: You know, you, you
have a very particularly integrated herd

01:41:31.989 --> 01:41:36.069
because that herd lives and dies together.

01:41:36.909 --> 01:41:37.089
Yeah.

01:41:37.089 --> 01:41:40.929
Karla Brahms: But even them, when, when
I gave away the, the three ponies mm-hmm.

01:41:40.929 --> 01:41:41.859
I had to give them away.

01:41:41.859 --> 01:41:43.239
I couldn't keep them anymore.

01:41:43.329 --> 01:41:43.749
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:41:43.869 --> 01:41:45.789
Karla Brahms: It changed
the behavior of the herd.

01:41:46.269 --> 01:41:46.569
Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

01:41:46.629 --> 01:41:51.839
Karla Brahms: Like my, my only male
horse is the son of my, my oldest horse.

01:41:52.389 --> 01:41:54.909
He's now the only male with two ma mares.

01:41:55.389 --> 01:41:56.269
And he is.

01:41:57.124 --> 01:41:58.264
So tense.

01:41:59.464 --> 01:42:04.324
And I think it's the, the fear
of losing these two again,

01:42:05.434 --> 01:42:07.144
of losing more of his herd.

01:42:07.894 --> 01:42:08.284
Okay.

01:42:08.944 --> 01:42:14.244
And I remember when, when my my
first horse that was very close to

01:42:14.244 --> 01:42:20.154
Flocker, they were like a couple,
when he died, she was like two weeks.

01:42:20.154 --> 01:42:22.134
She, I couldn't, I couldn't get near her.

01:42:22.249 --> 01:42:22.669
Mm-hmm.

01:42:22.764 --> 01:42:27.504
She always ran away because I had the
feeling that she connected me with, with

01:42:27.504 --> 01:42:33.444
the death of, of her partner, which was
on the, on the field where they lived.

01:42:33.444 --> 01:42:38.364
And they, they all saw what
we did and they all saw how

01:42:38.364 --> 01:42:43.514
he died with a veterinarian,
giving him the, the final yeah.

01:42:43.514 --> 01:42:44.354
Injection poison.

01:42:44.544 --> 01:42:44.834
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:42:45.049 --> 01:42:45.319
Yeah.

01:42:45.319 --> 01:42:50.159
Karla Brahms: And it took more than
two weeks for me to get close to her

01:42:50.159 --> 01:42:52.709
again, because she was looking for him.

01:42:53.279 --> 01:42:54.359
She couldn't handle that.

01:42:54.359 --> 01:42:55.649
He's not there anymore.

01:42:55.649 --> 01:42:59.909
The other horses, they went to the dead
body and sniffed on him, but she was just

01:43:00.209 --> 01:43:02.819
running at the fence and looking for him.

01:43:03.119 --> 01:43:06.929
And that was the moment when I
realized that horses are in grief too.

01:43:07.649 --> 01:43:10.919
But they handled it
differently than we Yeah,

01:43:10.919 --> 01:43:11.219
Rupert Isaacson: they do.

01:43:11.219 --> 01:43:14.579
Karla Brahms: After weeks, she,
she was like, okay, he's gone.

01:43:15.779 --> 01:43:17.969
Now we take it further.

01:43:18.329 --> 01:43:19.229
Life goes on.

01:43:20.084 --> 01:43:21.884
Rupert Isaacson: I dunno if
you're familiar with a book called

01:43:21.884 --> 01:43:24.194
Gulliver's Travels, which is a, an

01:43:24.704 --> 01:43:25.164
Karla Brahms: at Yeah, yeah,

01:43:25.214 --> 01:43:25.604
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.

01:43:25.604 --> 01:43:25.794
They make

01:43:26.019 --> 01:43:26.819
Karla Brahms: a little bit like

01:43:26.839 --> 01:43:27.739
Rupert Isaacson: movies like

01:43:27.739 --> 01:43:28.299
Karla Brahms: all children do.

01:43:28.329 --> 01:43:28.619
Yeah,

01:43:28.744 --> 01:43:29.294
Rupert Isaacson: yeah, yeah.

01:43:29.654 --> 01:43:33.804
So everyone knows the the
adventure on Lilipu where he

01:43:33.804 --> 01:43:36.504
meets all the little people and
they tie him up and all of that.

01:43:37.014 --> 01:43:41.574
But the actual Book of Gulls travels,
he goes to all these different

01:43:41.574 --> 01:43:45.984
places, and one of the places he
goes to is the Land of the Hui Hams.

01:43:46.434 --> 01:43:47.994
And the Hui Hyams are horses.

01:43:49.164 --> 01:43:54.094
And they're horses that have a, a
culture and a and a they kind of

01:43:54.094 --> 01:43:56.944
live like civilized human beings
sort of thing, but they're horses.

01:43:56.944 --> 01:43:57.184
Oh, wow.

01:43:57.544 --> 01:43:57.694
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:43:57.724 --> 01:44:01.924
Rupert Isaacson: And Daniel Defoe,
who wrote that book, was Anglo-Irish.

01:44:01.924 --> 01:44:06.594
So he was in the 18th century
growing up and living in a very,

01:44:06.594 --> 01:44:11.074
very, very rich horse culture of
Thoroughbreds, early thoroughbred.

01:44:11.294 --> 01:44:16.584
The, the, the Dar the, the Bali
Turk, which is one of the foundation

01:44:16.584 --> 01:44:20.264
stallions of the Thoroughbred think
was, was standing at stud very close

01:44:20.264 --> 01:44:23.534
to where he was living, and he was
very much part of that whole world.

01:44:23.774 --> 01:44:25.754
So horses were a big
part of his Irish life.

01:44:25.754 --> 01:44:30.284
And so he has a lot of respect for
horses and he uses the horses as a sort

01:44:30.284 --> 01:44:32.954
of a metaphor for how we should be.

01:44:33.494 --> 01:44:37.934
And he's, he's invited to Tea by a me.

01:44:39.069 --> 01:44:44.529
This chestnut ma and he's, he's
having tea with the Chestnut Ma.

01:44:44.919 --> 01:44:48.339
And it somehow comes up in conversation
that her husband just died.

01:44:49.269 --> 01:44:51.879
And he's immediately, oh
my gosh, I'm so sorry.

01:44:51.879 --> 01:44:54.459
You know, I, I hate to impose,
you know, this must be such

01:44:54.459 --> 01:44:55.509
a difficult time for you.

01:44:55.509 --> 01:44:57.129
Are you sure I shouldn't be here?

01:44:57.249 --> 01:44:58.509
And she says, no, no, no, no, no.

01:44:59.169 --> 01:45:00.039
You don't understand.

01:45:00.189 --> 01:45:01.959
We, we, Huey hins, we horses.

01:45:02.329 --> 01:45:03.439
For us it's very different.

01:45:03.519 --> 01:45:08.079
I very, very much loved my husband, and I
very, very much enjoyed my life with him.

01:45:08.529 --> 01:45:11.949
And I reflect on everything
that's good with him.

01:45:12.039 --> 01:45:18.399
And now he's gone and we go forward
and would you like some sugar in

01:45:18.399 --> 01:45:21.429
your tea or would you like some,
you know, and he's trying to get

01:45:21.429 --> 01:45:22.989
his head around this in the book.

01:45:23.139 --> 01:45:26.279
And I remember reading that
when I was in my twenties.

01:45:26.909 --> 01:45:32.659
And horses do serve for us as such a
good metaphor of resilience, I feel.

01:45:34.229 --> 01:45:35.489
Because what is grief?

01:45:35.939 --> 01:45:37.229
What is trauma really?

01:45:37.919 --> 01:45:42.419
But the process of resilience, I,
I, I think that people often get

01:45:42.569 --> 01:45:44.219
the relationship with trauma wrong.

01:45:44.249 --> 01:45:48.389
That trauma is this place where you
stay, you, you do not stay in trauma.

01:45:48.659 --> 01:45:49.889
Trauma is a thing that happens.

01:45:49.889 --> 01:45:55.499
It can happen in a sustained way
even, but it builds resilience.

01:45:55.499 --> 01:45:59.399
One, we otherwise life
on the planet would just.

01:46:00.329 --> 01:46:01.229
Be extinguished.

01:46:01.799 --> 01:46:02.069
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:46:02.399 --> 01:46:07.199
Rupert Isaacson: But that process
of resilience is personal and

01:46:07.199 --> 01:46:09.749
different for every being.

01:46:10.259 --> 01:46:10.559
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:46:11.639 --> 01:46:15.989
And you know, one thing that
having horses behind your house is

01:46:15.989 --> 01:46:21.689
helping through grief is that you
feel you are still able to act.

01:46:23.039 --> 01:46:27.539
You have to go outside every
morning, feed them hay, clean

01:46:27.539 --> 01:46:30.689
the stables, get them exercised.

01:46:31.139 --> 01:46:31.499
Rupert Isaacson: Yep.

01:46:31.769 --> 01:46:35.909
Karla Brahms: And that keeps
you in a state of, in control

01:46:37.229 --> 01:46:38.189
Rupert Isaacson: positive mental health.

01:46:38.249 --> 01:46:38.429
Yeah.

01:46:38.459 --> 01:46:38.699
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:46:38.969 --> 01:46:44.279
You're in control of your, of
your day, of your structure and

01:46:44.279 --> 01:46:47.879
you are able to handle things.

01:46:49.409 --> 01:46:55.709
And that is maybe one of the most of
the best things that happened to me

01:46:55.709 --> 01:46:59.429
in that, in that state of I what I am.

01:46:59.849 --> 01:47:05.249
Because when I read in the community,
in the grief community about all these

01:47:05.249 --> 01:47:16.139
persons who sit alone at home with
no job, no reason to live, they only

01:47:16.739 --> 01:47:19.469
sit there and sit in their memories.

01:47:21.509 --> 01:47:24.029
That's so hard to get out of that.

01:47:25.589 --> 01:47:29.579
That I'm so glad to have the horses
and the animals that I have to take

01:47:29.579 --> 01:47:34.499
care for because they keep me in life.

01:47:34.499 --> 01:47:39.029
They keep me in the now and in the
presence and in the, and they force

01:47:39.029 --> 01:47:45.329
me to make decisions, decisions
for them, and decisions for me.

01:47:45.689 --> 01:47:46.049
Mm.

01:47:49.259 --> 01:47:55.199
And that is maybe the, the, the
greatest gift that they could give me.

01:47:59.969 --> 01:48:06.209
And maybe that's, that's a part
of the benefits of equine therapy.

01:48:06.779 --> 01:48:11.369
That horses help us to
acknowledge the present.

01:48:12.479 --> 01:48:15.269
They keep us in the now and now.

01:48:15.269 --> 01:48:18.329
And now, now is important.

01:48:19.259 --> 01:48:22.079
Not what was yesterday, not
what is will be tomorrow.

01:48:22.649 --> 01:48:26.819
But now they're living in, in
the, in the presence all the time.

01:48:27.329 --> 01:48:29.129
And they, they care for themselves.

01:48:29.129 --> 01:48:32.399
And they always do things to feel good.

01:48:33.359 --> 01:48:36.989
If they're not feeling good, they
try to do things to feel better.

01:48:38.669 --> 01:48:39.359
Rupert Isaacson: That is true.

01:48:40.949 --> 01:48:41.129
Yeah.

01:48:41.129 --> 01:48:45.389
They'll seek out the edible delicacy.

01:48:45.389 --> 01:48:48.089
They'll roll, they'll
rub against the tree.

01:48:48.089 --> 01:48:48.569
They'll

01:48:48.749 --> 01:48:49.019
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:48:49.439 --> 01:48:52.559
Rupert Isaacson: Seek out each
other and groom on each other.

01:48:52.859 --> 01:48:53.189
Yeah.

01:48:53.189 --> 01:48:53.199
Yeah.

01:48:53.489 --> 01:48:53.849
Yeah.

01:48:55.614 --> 01:48:56.054
Yeah.

01:48:56.414 --> 01:49:03.404
And of course in our taboo laden culture,
okay, we might hug each other, but we

01:49:03.404 --> 01:49:05.144
might not lie there and hold each other.

01:49:05.744 --> 01:49:06.164
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:49:06.794 --> 01:49:08.744
Rupert Isaacson: Or stroke
each other or groom each other

01:49:08.744 --> 01:49:10.214
like a, like an ape would.

01:49:10.514 --> 01:49:10.574
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:49:10.574 --> 01:49:11.864
And that's al also.

01:49:11.864 --> 01:49:18.974
And, and, and that benefit of using horses
in these processes of therapy because

01:49:19.004 --> 01:49:22.214
they can offer a physical closeness Yeah.

01:49:22.214 --> 01:49:24.524
That we as a therapist could never offer.

01:49:25.034 --> 01:49:30.144
That would be too much in,
in, is it called insult?

01:49:30.954 --> 01:49:34.254
Rupert Isaacson: Well, let's
just say that within the strange

01:49:34.254 --> 01:49:35.664
way, our culture has evolved.

01:49:36.144 --> 01:49:36.204
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:49:36.384 --> 01:49:39.414
Rupert Isaacson: The very thing that
would be the most help is the very thing

01:49:39.414 --> 01:49:40.974
that we probably are not allowed to give.

01:49:41.034 --> 01:49:41.394
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:49:41.514 --> 01:49:41.904
Rupert Isaacson: That's the thing.

01:49:41.904 --> 01:49:43.794
But luckily our horses can, yeah.

01:49:43.824 --> 01:49:44.184
Karla Brahms: Yes.

01:49:44.364 --> 01:49:45.054
And that's the thing.

01:49:45.054 --> 01:49:49.884
It's, it's innocent to hug a horse
and to stay there for at least 10,

01:49:49.914 --> 01:49:52.134
15 minutes as long as you need it.

01:49:52.614 --> 01:49:54.654
Or if you lie on the back of a horse,

01:49:54.954 --> 01:49:55.074
Rupert Isaacson: yeah.

01:49:55.074 --> 01:50:00.934
Karla Brahms: You can, you can just
inhale the healing for as long as you need

01:50:00.934 --> 01:50:03.094
it and the horses will give it to you.

01:50:03.424 --> 01:50:05.494
Rupert Isaacson: Yep, yep, yep.

01:50:05.764 --> 01:50:09.154
Karla Brahms: And they always feel
warm because their body temperature is

01:50:09.154 --> 01:50:14.914
higher than ours and they always feel
soft, and they will always offer it to

01:50:14.914 --> 01:50:17.404
us because they're such sweethearts.

01:50:18.724 --> 01:50:18.934
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:50:18.934 --> 01:50:19.744
Generosity.

01:50:20.044 --> 01:50:21.094
Karla Brahms: Yeah, generosity.

01:50:21.154 --> 01:50:21.604
That's it.

01:50:21.604 --> 01:50:21.874
Yeah.

01:50:25.954 --> 01:50:29.824
And that's one thing I, I realized
in these processes with the, with

01:50:29.824 --> 01:50:35.344
my NIG work, that the horses will
always offer themself to help

01:50:37.654 --> 01:50:40.504
when the, the people start
crying on the pictures because

01:50:40.504 --> 01:50:42.364
emotions are overwhelming them.

01:50:42.904 --> 01:50:46.864
The horses will always go
close to them and just stand

01:50:46.864 --> 01:50:49.084
at their back or at their side.

01:50:49.084 --> 01:50:49.144
Yeah.

01:50:49.264 --> 01:50:50.554
And just be there.

01:50:50.854 --> 01:50:51.094
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:50:51.094 --> 01:50:51.154
Yeah.

01:50:52.144 --> 01:50:53.974
Karla Brahms: And this
presence is helping.

01:50:54.604 --> 01:50:54.874
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:50:54.904 --> 01:50:57.634
And sending out that
enormous electromagnetic

01:50:57.814 --> 01:50:58.324
Karla Brahms: Yes.

01:50:58.444 --> 01:51:02.344
Rupert Isaacson: Photon,
laden love beam that we now

01:51:02.344 --> 01:51:02.554
Karla Brahms: know.

01:51:02.729 --> 01:51:06.904
And if you, if you think of help
and grief, not words are helping,

01:51:06.964 --> 01:51:10.864
not, not big gestures are helping.

01:51:10.984 --> 01:51:12.454
Just being there.

01:51:13.414 --> 01:51:19.204
Being there and, and maybe
offering a handkerchief

01:51:19.954 --> 01:51:20.104
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:51:20.164 --> 01:51:20.764
Karla Brahms: Is enough.

01:51:21.334 --> 01:51:21.484
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:51:21.484 --> 01:51:24.634
Karla Brahms: And that presence,
that that still and calm presence

01:51:24.634 --> 01:51:29.914
of horses to be just there and,
you know, you can rely on them.

01:51:31.234 --> 01:51:31.414
That's

01:51:31.414 --> 01:51:33.904
Rupert Isaacson: now, but what, what
about the other, what about the other

01:51:33.904 --> 01:51:35.704
necessary mechanisms of grief, though?

01:51:35.704 --> 01:51:41.614
So many cultures, you know, you know,
obviously Africa's a big part of my life.

01:51:42.304 --> 01:51:44.854
In Africa, when people grieve,
they grieve really actively.

01:51:45.599 --> 01:51:49.379
You're allowed to scream, you're
allowed to wail, you're allowed to

01:51:49.709 --> 01:51:52.529
tear your clothing, you're allowed to

01:51:56.099 --> 01:51:56.849
embody it.

01:51:57.629 --> 01:51:57.779
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:51:58.109 --> 01:52:00.569
Rupert Isaacson: Our grief
rituals are very restrained.

01:52:00.989 --> 01:52:01.439
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:52:01.539 --> 01:52:05.729
Rupert Isaacson: You go to a funeral,
you know if you're lucky, you go

01:52:05.729 --> 01:52:08.969
to an Irish wake where everyone's
getting drunk and celebrating.

01:52:08.999 --> 01:52:16.719
Or you go to a, a memorial like the one
you threw in your village where the whole

01:52:16.719 --> 01:52:20.679
village showed up and was eating and
drinking together and finding commun.

01:52:20.679 --> 01:52:20.739
They

01:52:20.739 --> 01:52:22.329
Karla Brahms: brought
the, the, the eating.

01:52:23.049 --> 01:52:24.699
I only cared for the drinks.

01:52:24.774 --> 01:52:24.894
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:52:25.209 --> 01:52:27.819
Karla Brahms: Everybody brought
something to eat and that was wonderful.

01:52:28.299 --> 01:52:30.189
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, it was an
amazing, actually experience in,

01:52:30.189 --> 01:52:32.259
in, in really cool German food.

01:52:32.259 --> 01:52:32.949
It was like, wow.

01:52:32.949 --> 01:52:34.419
All these, all these delicacies.

01:52:34.419 --> 01:52:34.479
Yeah.

01:52:35.119 --> 01:52:44.479
But the idea to have a grieving, allowed
grieving ritual to allow that energy

01:52:44.479 --> 01:52:47.839
to that's very much also a human need.

01:52:49.219 --> 01:52:49.549
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:52:49.759 --> 01:52:52.969
Rupert Isaacson: You know,
how, how do we bring that into

01:52:55.069 --> 01:52:57.169
a retreat and equine practice?

01:52:57.919 --> 01:52:58.849
You know, we need both.

01:52:58.849 --> 01:53:02.419
We need that quiet
presence, but we also need.

01:53:05.449 --> 01:53:10.279
But I, I, I, so is it, for example,
if you just speak personally, I'll

01:53:10.279 --> 01:53:11.449
let to ask this as a question.

01:53:11.659 --> 01:53:12.499
Let's say

01:53:14.839 --> 01:53:18.829
it was closer to the time
of Jan's actual death.

01:53:19.129 --> 01:53:20.719
Would it have been more helpful

01:53:22.879 --> 01:53:27.044
just say, if I had showed up
at a that particular time to

01:53:29.179 --> 01:53:36.709
which I guess I did, to engage in
a loud grieving, or was it more

01:53:36.709 --> 01:53:40.429
helpful to engage in a quiet grieving,

01:53:43.789 --> 01:53:45.379
if you can look back on it now?

01:53:45.384 --> 01:53:45.784
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

01:53:50.269 --> 01:53:51.829
Rupert Isaacson: Or would you
say, no, actually Rupert, I

01:53:51.829 --> 01:53:53.569
need, I, I would've, I need both.

01:53:54.499 --> 01:53:58.249
What, yeah, just, I think this is
really useful to, for people to consider

01:54:00.289 --> 01:54:05.299
what's, what's the interplay, what's
the sequence really of grieving

01:54:05.689 --> 01:54:08.689
that we need to be aware of?

01:54:08.689 --> 01:54:10.219
'cause it's outg gone from our culture.

01:54:10.699 --> 01:54:10.969
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:54:11.059 --> 01:54:11.299
That's

01:54:11.299 --> 01:54:11.734
Rupert Isaacson: the point.

01:54:11.804 --> 01:54:12.094
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:54:13.939 --> 01:54:14.299
Rupert Isaacson: It,

01:54:16.384 --> 01:54:19.699
if, if, if you, let's say you weren't
living in Germany and you were living

01:54:20.089 --> 01:54:25.009
somewhere where the traditional norms
of German culture did not apply.

01:54:27.424 --> 01:54:29.404
What would've been your
ideal way to grieve?

01:54:31.294 --> 01:54:33.064
Karla Brahms: I think
exactly the way I did.

01:54:33.304 --> 01:54:33.724
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:54:34.084 --> 01:54:34.624
Karla Brahms: Because

01:54:36.844 --> 01:54:44.644
I can't imagine doing it in another
way because I, I always did what

01:54:44.644 --> 01:54:47.704
felt right for me, and I still do.

01:54:48.124 --> 01:54:48.364
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:54:48.364 --> 01:54:48.394
I

01:54:48.454 --> 01:54:51.964
Karla Brahms: don't care if I
break out in tears in public.

01:54:52.354 --> 01:54:53.314
It doesn't bother me.

01:54:54.304 --> 01:54:54.784
And

01:54:54.884 --> 01:54:58.454
Rupert Isaacson: did you have a
process of loud grieving and if so,

01:54:58.514 --> 01:55:00.314
how did it, how did it play out?

01:55:02.204 --> 01:55:03.494
Karla Brahms: Alone in the forest.

01:55:03.794 --> 01:55:04.184
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:55:04.739 --> 01:55:04.959
And

01:55:07.424 --> 01:55:08.114
Karla Brahms: it's like

01:55:10.484 --> 01:55:13.784
you can't push it back if it comes.

01:55:13.994 --> 01:55:14.354
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:55:15.464 --> 01:55:15.794
Yeah.

01:55:17.294 --> 01:55:20.954
Karla Brahms: And if to, if you
allow yourself to, to just do it.

01:55:25.994 --> 01:55:34.364
And, and I think it's wrong to say
people how they have to behave in grief.

01:55:34.604 --> 01:55:35.354
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:55:35.774 --> 01:55:46.184
Karla Brahms: It's actually more to allow
them to feel what they need and give them

01:55:46.184 --> 01:55:49.724
the room and the possibility to do that.

01:55:50.414 --> 01:55:50.744
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:55:50.804 --> 01:55:51.704
Karla Brahms: What's inside them?

01:55:53.624 --> 01:55:55.334
It's screaming, then scream.

01:55:55.814 --> 01:55:58.064
If it's being quiet, then be quiet.

01:55:59.804 --> 01:56:01.874
You know, the thing is, one funny thing is

01:56:04.364 --> 01:56:08.114
Yan and I had the ritual when we were
sitting on the sofa in the evening

01:56:08.924 --> 01:56:13.214
that he was putting either his feet
on my lap or his head on my lap.

01:56:13.634 --> 01:56:18.884
And I was always either massaging his
toes or I was scrambling his skull.

01:56:19.904 --> 01:56:20.024
Rupert Isaacson: Oh.

01:56:20.024 --> 01:56:23.834
So maybe he came a little bit higher
up the hierarchy of affection.

01:56:23.864 --> 01:56:25.154
Karla Brahms: And after he, he was dead.

01:56:25.754 --> 01:56:30.464
I was sitting on the sofa and my
hands had nothing to do, and I

01:56:30.464 --> 01:56:33.104
was like, I have to do something.

01:56:33.164 --> 01:56:36.434
And, and it was not cuddling the
cat or cuddling the, the dog.

01:56:36.434 --> 01:56:37.124
That would help.

01:56:37.664 --> 01:56:38.924
And I started knitting.

01:56:39.584 --> 01:56:40.124
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:56:40.139 --> 01:56:41.534
Karla Brahms: And I started knitting.

01:56:41.679 --> 01:56:45.774
I, I wanted to knit a sock, like
a sock without the, the foot.

01:56:47.454 --> 01:56:47.874
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:56:48.654 --> 01:56:49.284
Karla Brahms: And I knitted.

01:56:49.284 --> 01:56:50.154
I knitted and knitted.

01:56:50.154 --> 01:56:53.899
And then suddenly I felt, oh,
it's far too long for a tuper.

01:56:54.519 --> 01:56:55.914
And I said, oh, I don't care.

01:56:55.914 --> 01:56:56.544
I just knit.

01:56:57.294 --> 01:57:00.084
And I knitted and knitted and
knitted for I think six months.

01:57:00.984 --> 01:57:04.824
And the, the tuper I made was,
is now like seven meters long.

01:57:07.974 --> 01:57:11.904
And I didn't care because I
felt it, it, it felt good for

01:57:11.904 --> 01:57:13.944
me to sit on the sofa and knit.

01:57:14.424 --> 01:57:14.874
Yes.

01:57:15.489 --> 01:57:19.209
And I had the pleasure of, oh,
which wool will I take now?

01:57:19.509 --> 01:57:25.179
Which, which color is, is my grief at
the moment, which color will suit me?

01:57:26.049 --> 01:57:34.509
And so that the thing that that that
happened is a colorful, multi mixed up.

01:57:35.739 --> 01:57:39.009
It's, look, it looks like a snail
house, like, like a snicker.

01:57:40.059 --> 01:57:42.549
But if I roll it out, it's
like seven meters long.

01:57:43.299 --> 01:57:45.849
And suddenly I felt now it's okay.

01:57:47.319 --> 01:57:47.739
Interesting.

01:57:47.799 --> 01:57:49.179
Now I don't need it anymore.

01:57:49.809 --> 01:57:49.869
Okay.

01:57:49.929 --> 01:57:57.729
And I think if we give people the
possibility to do what they feel, what

01:57:57.729 --> 01:58:05.229
helps and allow them to do that, that's
more than we can ever help anybody.

01:58:06.999 --> 01:58:08.319
Rupert Isaacson: And now what
you've done, of course, is you've

01:58:08.319 --> 01:58:09.729
created a sacred object, right?

01:58:09.729 --> 01:58:14.599
You've created a shamanic
I can imagine how Yeah.

01:58:15.319 --> 01:58:15.829
A snail.

01:58:16.489 --> 01:58:20.179
Oh, isn't it interesting that you, I was
gonna ask you this, but I didn't want to

01:58:20.179 --> 01:58:27.829
interrupt you when you were doing your NIG
thing in the early stages of Jan's cancer.

01:58:28.189 --> 01:58:28.519
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:58:28.939 --> 01:58:31.729
Rupert Isaacson: And you drew
the GaN the grant, the happy.

01:58:32.854 --> 01:58:33.664
Happy granny.

01:58:34.054 --> 01:58:34.414
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

01:58:34.414 --> 01:58:34.719
Rupert Isaacson: The widow,

01:58:34.719 --> 01:58:35.224
Karla Brahms: the happy granny.

01:58:36.274 --> 01:58:37.144
The happy widow.

01:58:37.834 --> 01:58:42.064
Rupert Isaacson: The happy widow
in her heels and party dress,

01:58:42.304 --> 01:58:45.394
which we now need you to get.

01:58:45.814 --> 01:58:48.424
'cause I, I think you, you
drew that costume for a reason.

01:58:48.424 --> 01:58:48.694
Right?

01:58:49.204 --> 01:58:52.824
But you talked about the
superhero, the meta think being

01:58:52.824 --> 01:58:55.019
Gary the snail and you the snail.

01:58:55.019 --> 01:58:55.099
Yeah.

01:58:55.099 --> 01:58:56.934
You said it like, I should
know who Gary the snail is.

01:58:57.444 --> 01:58:58.739
And then you created a sna.

01:58:58.919 --> 01:58:59.139
No,

01:58:59.139 --> 01:58:59.659
Karla Brahms: SpongeBob.

01:59:00.569 --> 01:59:02.149
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.

01:59:02.939 --> 01:59:03.229
Okay.

01:59:03.229 --> 01:59:03.669
SpongeBob.

01:59:04.059 --> 01:59:04.349
Okay.

01:59:04.579 --> 01:59:04.869
Okay.

01:59:04.899 --> 01:59:05.189
Okay.

01:59:05.484 --> 01:59:11.274
Karla Brahms: The wise Gary, I even drew a
picture in a NIG session once about Gary.

01:59:11.874 --> 01:59:12.444
See this?

01:59:13.219 --> 01:59:13.509
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:59:13.739 --> 01:59:14.029
Okay.

01:59:14.029 --> 01:59:18.004
Karla Brahms: This is my, Gary
and Gary stood for the what

01:59:18.004 --> 01:59:19.564
is the English word for ghe?

01:59:20.194 --> 01:59:20.854
Rupert Isaacson: Tension.

01:59:20.924 --> 01:59:21.854
No, not tension.

01:59:21.884 --> 01:59:22.034
Not

01:59:22.034 --> 01:59:22.364
Karla Brahms: tension.

01:59:22.369 --> 01:59:23.264
The, the opposite.

01:59:23.324 --> 01:59:23.714
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:59:23.964 --> 01:59:25.014
So relaxation.

01:59:25.094 --> 01:59:25.424
Koen height.

01:59:25.424 --> 01:59:25.634
Yeah.

01:59:25.634 --> 01:59:26.264
Suppleness.

01:59:26.264 --> 01:59:26.744
Relaxation.

01:59:26.744 --> 01:59:27.734
Flexibility.

01:59:28.464 --> 01:59:28.794
Calmness.

01:59:29.169 --> 01:59:29.729
Calmness.

01:59:29.729 --> 01:59:29.739
Yeah.

01:59:29.739 --> 01:59:29.814
Calmness.

01:59:29.814 --> 01:59:30.144
Yeah.

01:59:31.584 --> 01:59:33.384
Karla Brahms: And that was my wish.

01:59:33.504 --> 01:59:40.614
I wished that things would calm down and
I would feel calm and safe and secure.

01:59:41.424 --> 01:59:45.714
And then I was supposed to
draw three talents of mine.

01:59:45.894 --> 01:59:47.454
Three things that I can do.

01:59:47.454 --> 01:59:47.844
Good.

01:59:48.819 --> 01:59:52.719
The funny thing was that I
drew, I think I drew empathy and

01:59:52.719 --> 01:59:56.009
love and having a lot of ideas.

01:59:57.599 --> 02:00:03.209
And these three pictures for themselves,
they were only colored in one color.

02:00:03.929 --> 02:00:09.119
So empathy was like blue
and the heart love was red.

02:00:09.299 --> 02:00:12.989
A red heart and the
ideas was a yellow star.

02:00:13.589 --> 02:00:18.209
And in the end, my, my metta, I
didn't, I, I don't know what meta was.

02:00:18.209 --> 02:00:23.369
That time when Metta was looking
at these pictures, it said, well,

02:00:24.119 --> 02:00:30.459
in Gary's house, all these pictures
all these colors are already there.

02:00:32.109 --> 02:00:36.189
So my ghe is already in me.

02:00:38.379 --> 02:00:43.839
And realizing that it all is
already there made me calm.

02:00:45.279 --> 02:00:46.179
Isn't that funny?

02:00:46.449 --> 02:00:47.139
Rupert Isaacson: It is.

02:00:47.259 --> 02:00:48.279
And now you've knitted it.

02:00:49.119 --> 02:00:50.919
Karla Brahms: And now I've knitted it.

02:00:51.009 --> 02:00:51.159
Right.

02:00:53.319 --> 02:00:56.799
Rupert Isaacson: I'm just thinking that
if, if you're going on, you know, if

02:00:56.799 --> 02:01:04.299
someone's coming to your retreat, I
think that knitted gsen height, that

02:01:04.299 --> 02:01:11.919
knitted sna Gary, the snail shell,
seven meters long, could be an object

02:01:14.019 --> 02:01:16.749
that could bring great insight.

02:01:18.114 --> 02:01:20.364
And comfort at the same time.

02:01:20.604 --> 02:01:20.874
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

02:01:21.384 --> 02:01:25.314
Rupert Isaacson: And also serve it as an
inspiration of what, 'cause I, I think

02:01:25.314 --> 02:01:26.964
we often do this when we're in pain.

02:01:26.964 --> 02:01:29.424
When we're in pain, we
throw ourselves into a task.

02:01:29.544 --> 02:01:29.754
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

02:01:30.304 --> 02:01:32.134
Rupert Isaacson: It's a
really necessary thing.

02:01:32.434 --> 02:01:36.424
I remember the first time I
really got my heart broken.

02:01:37.144 --> 02:01:43.084
I went from being a student who
couldn't give a shit about his grades

02:01:43.354 --> 02:01:45.244
to, I threw myself into my degree.

02:01:46.504 --> 02:01:46.624
Okay.

02:01:46.624 --> 02:01:48.454
You know, and I became
like the best researcher.

02:01:49.624 --> 02:01:52.654
And began to write, actually

02:01:53.074 --> 02:01:53.704
Karla Brahms: Okay.

02:01:53.884 --> 02:01:55.234
Rupert Isaacson: Threw myself into story.

02:01:55.714 --> 02:01:59.614
And obviously, you know, when I
was in that state of great grief

02:01:59.974 --> 02:02:03.244
in the early stages of Rowan's
diagnosis, well, that's what Horse

02:02:03.244 --> 02:02:04.864
Boy came out of and all of that.

02:02:04.864 --> 02:02:05.374
Mm-hmm.

02:02:05.614 --> 02:02:06.394
So,

02:02:07.084 --> 02:02:08.824
Karla Brahms: so grief
brought out the best in you.

02:02:09.604 --> 02:02:10.594
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

02:02:11.824 --> 02:02:12.154
Yes.

02:02:12.154 --> 02:02:13.504
Do you feel it's doing the same for you?

02:02:13.534 --> 02:02:13.564
Mm,

02:02:18.424 --> 02:02:18.604
yeah.

02:02:18.604 --> 02:02:19.534
I think it is too.

02:02:19.834 --> 02:02:19.924
Karla Brahms: Mm.

02:02:20.254 --> 02:02:23.044
Rupert Isaacson: Even though I
would say that there was, you were

02:02:23.044 --> 02:02:28.174
still the best Carla, where before
going through that you were still

02:02:28.174 --> 02:02:31.204
the best when, when Y was there.

02:02:31.379 --> 02:02:31.669
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

02:02:31.889 --> 02:02:33.064
Rupert Isaacson: Now, yeah.

02:02:33.064 --> 02:02:33.874
I, yeah.

02:02:33.874 --> 02:02:36.484
I, and, and so this is
my, this is my final.

02:02:37.369 --> 02:02:41.899
Question really is how does one deal with
the sense of unfairness and injustice?

02:02:41.899 --> 02:02:47.119
You remember I said that when I saw Y laid
out and there I had that sense of outrage.

02:02:47.689 --> 02:02:48.619
This is not right.

02:02:48.619 --> 02:02:49.549
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

02:02:50.189 --> 02:02:51.089
Rupert Isaacson: This is not fair.

02:02:51.509 --> 02:02:52.379
You are too young.

02:02:52.379 --> 02:02:53.279
You are too good looking.

02:02:53.279 --> 02:02:55.079
You're too healthy, you're too talented.

02:02:55.259 --> 02:02:56.699
You have too much left to do.

02:02:57.719 --> 02:03:01.979
You have, you know, you and
Carla have this karmic love.

02:03:03.119 --> 02:03:08.759
You guys really were are
one of those couples who

02:03:10.829 --> 02:03:12.959
have found, you know, the
lucky ones who've really

02:03:12.959 --> 02:03:15.269
found, really found it right.

02:03:15.869 --> 02:03:18.479
Not just the romance, but
also the partnership and the

02:03:18.479 --> 02:03:23.549
creativity and the respect and
the, the, the, the whole thing.

02:03:26.399 --> 02:03:32.429
The, the, the, the being something
greater than the two of you individually

02:03:32.429 --> 02:03:38.369
are the, the, the very thing for which
we all aspire in our relationships.

02:03:38.999 --> 02:03:39.299
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

02:03:39.599 --> 02:03:42.929
Rupert Isaacson: You have, I
feel that he's still around.

02:03:45.149 --> 02:03:50.489
I've ever since my exposure to a
healer in England when I was in my mid

02:03:50.489 --> 02:03:55.199
twenties, funny old guy, he used to go
around healing horses, but he was so

02:03:55.199 --> 02:04:00.719
effective that vets used to refer people
to him, and he said he was the hands

02:04:00.719 --> 02:04:03.089
of a dead friend and his dead mother.

02:04:03.164 --> 02:04:03.254
Right.

02:04:03.704 --> 02:04:06.854
And I remember asking him,
I said, well, what are these

02:04:06.854 --> 02:04:08.234
people doing hanging around?

02:04:08.234 --> 02:04:11.654
I mean, surely when you die, you, you,
you go said, no, actually, Rupert, no.

02:04:12.014 --> 02:04:15.494
You can hang around for quite
a while if you feel that

02:04:15.494 --> 02:04:17.294
there is necessary work to do.

02:04:17.384 --> 02:04:17.774
Karla Brahms: Mm.

02:04:17.779 --> 02:04:17.969
Mm-hmm.

02:04:18.024 --> 02:04:19.644
Rupert Isaacson: You will eventually Yeah.

02:04:20.114 --> 02:04:21.014
Go back to source.

02:04:21.014 --> 02:04:23.714
But you can, you can
absolutely hang out for a bit.

02:04:24.714 --> 02:04:27.084
Karla Brahms: You know, your
question of unfairness is

02:04:27.084 --> 02:04:27.414
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

02:04:27.924 --> 02:04:32.369
Karla Brahms: The, the love
and all the, the magic of our

02:04:32.369 --> 02:04:34.229
relationship is still there.

02:04:34.379 --> 02:04:34.889
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

02:04:35.129 --> 02:04:38.639
Karla Brahms: So the love doesn't go away.

02:04:38.969 --> 02:04:39.239
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:04:39.629 --> 02:04:44.099
Karla Brahms: And if you, if you
ask why did, why did that happen?

02:04:44.459 --> 02:04:46.079
You will never find an answer.

02:04:46.559 --> 02:04:47.009
Mm.

02:04:47.309 --> 02:04:50.549
We don't have it in our hands when
we go, when we leave this planet.

02:04:50.999 --> 02:04:51.059
Yeah.

02:04:51.059 --> 02:04:56.399
I could walk with a dog in the forest
and a branch fall down and hit me.

02:04:56.909 --> 02:04:57.059
Sure.

02:04:57.479 --> 02:04:58.229
I don't care.

02:04:59.759 --> 02:05:06.899
The thing is, it's not effectful, if
you ask for the why did that happen?

02:05:06.929 --> 02:05:08.999
And if you say This is not, but

02:05:08.999 --> 02:05:10.229
Rupert Isaacson: it is a natural question.

02:05:10.229 --> 02:05:10.739
Nonetheless.

02:05:10.859 --> 02:05:16.259
Karla Brahms: It is a natural question,
but it's none that can be answered.

02:05:16.529 --> 02:05:16.739
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:05:17.429 --> 02:05:23.959
Karla Brahms: And to, to stick to that
question will just make you crazy.

02:05:24.409 --> 02:05:24.769
Rupert Isaacson: Sure.

02:05:25.549 --> 02:05:26.209
Karla Brahms: So.

02:05:26.629 --> 02:05:31.699
The healthiest thing is to
say everything has reason.

02:05:32.839 --> 02:05:36.769
I don't know the reason now,
but maybe someday I will.

02:05:37.519 --> 02:05:37.819
Yeah.

02:05:38.359 --> 02:05:46.519
And I have made the experience in my
life that I often had to start at 0.0

02:05:47.929 --> 02:05:51.349
and every time it got better than before.

02:05:51.619 --> 02:05:53.119
Mm-hmm.

02:05:53.539 --> 02:06:02.419
And I don't know yet what will bring
the next years if I live, I'm 60 now

02:06:05.569 --> 02:06:06.949
when I live 20 years.

02:06:07.099 --> 02:06:07.669
Wow.

02:06:07.909 --> 02:06:09.139
I'll be grateful.

02:06:09.979 --> 02:06:16.729
But what was the good thing about
going through that experience now?

02:06:16.939 --> 02:06:18.859
I will only, only know then.

02:06:19.309 --> 02:06:19.459
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,

02:06:19.579 --> 02:06:19.729
Karla Brahms: sure.

02:06:19.729 --> 02:06:19.969
Not now.

02:06:20.599 --> 02:06:20.779
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:06:20.779 --> 02:06:21.079
Yeah.

02:06:22.099 --> 02:06:22.579
You're right.

02:06:22.669 --> 02:06:24.169
Karla Brahms: Just trusting, trust.

02:06:24.169 --> 02:06:27.199
Just trusting that
everything will go out fine.

02:06:27.739 --> 02:06:29.744
It's the only thing
that I can do right now.

02:06:29.749 --> 02:06:29.989
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

02:06:29.989 --> 02:06:32.389
And I'm thinking about the difference
between you and other people

02:06:32.389 --> 02:06:33.409
who might be going through this.

02:06:33.409 --> 02:06:37.219
You know, you talked about horses,
and horses bring us into the present.

02:06:37.219 --> 02:06:40.429
I think one of the things that horses
also do is they teach us trust.

02:06:40.429 --> 02:06:40.699
Right?

02:06:40.699 --> 02:06:41.299
Karla Brahms: Yes.

02:06:41.449 --> 02:06:41.749
Yeah.

02:06:42.014 --> 02:06:42.744
Rupert Isaacson: They really do.

02:06:42.804 --> 02:06:43.024
And

02:06:43.029 --> 02:06:44.389
Karla Brahms: just stay in the presence.

02:06:44.777 --> 02:06:48.527
Rupert Isaacson: Well, I'd be
very honored if you would start to

02:06:48.587 --> 02:06:50.957
offer your grief retreats through.

02:06:52.322 --> 02:06:56.852
The various places and centers
that do our work, because I

02:06:56.852 --> 02:06:58.892
know that this is necessary.

02:06:59.942 --> 02:07:00.032
Mm-hmm.

02:07:00.272 --> 02:07:04.142
So I hope that's a
conversation we'll be having.

02:07:05.312 --> 02:07:06.812
And I think it starts with an event.

02:07:06.812 --> 02:07:09.512
It's, it, it has to start with,
I mean, I know obviously you're

02:07:09.512 --> 02:07:11.312
doing them at your place too.

02:07:11.372 --> 02:07:11.462
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

02:07:12.602 --> 02:07:13.592
Rupert Isaacson: Which is magical.

02:07:13.742 --> 02:07:21.512
So people I think, who are going through
this, you can obviously tell by now

02:07:21.512 --> 02:07:27.662
if you're listening or watching that
Carla's grasp of English is perfect.

02:07:27.752 --> 02:07:33.602
So if you were an English speaker
going through grief, you could

02:07:33.602 --> 02:07:34.407
absolutely, I would just find

02:07:34.447 --> 02:07:34.687
Karla Brahms: a way,

02:07:35.187 --> 02:07:39.572
Rupert Isaacson: go to Germany and enter
that magical forest of light and dark

02:07:39.662 --> 02:07:39.992
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

02:07:41.162 --> 02:07:45.062
Rupert Isaacson: Of fairytale and
reality in the denal where she is with

02:07:45.062 --> 02:07:49.712
her horses and take a retreat with her.

02:07:50.072 --> 02:07:52.832
How do people contact you?

02:07:53.282 --> 02:07:54.242
How do they find you?

02:07:54.812 --> 02:08:02.992
Karla Brahms: They can find me with my
homepage am point de or in Instagram,

02:08:03.262 --> 02:08:05.212
I have an Instagram account too.

02:08:05.452 --> 02:08:06.502
It's also called,

02:08:10.072 --> 02:08:11.122
or they just ask you.

02:08:11.782 --> 02:08:12.747
And you can look them further.

02:08:13.527 --> 02:08:14.992
Rupert Isaacson: So, Lampen Hein.

02:08:15.592 --> 02:08:16.042
Karla Brahms: Lampen Hein.

02:08:16.042 --> 02:08:16.252
Yeah.

02:08:17.212 --> 02:08:18.742
Rupert Isaacson: Lhe is the,
is the name of the village?

02:08:18.802 --> 02:08:20.632
Well, the, the, the local town.

02:08:21.172 --> 02:08:24.802
And so I think you need to
spell it out for people.

02:08:24.802 --> 02:08:27.652
'cause when you say Lhe, people go, sure.

02:08:27.652 --> 02:08:27.802
What?

02:08:27.802 --> 02:08:33.562
So let's, let's, so Veon is
of course, with a W, right?

02:08:33.652 --> 02:08:33.742
Yeah.

02:08:33.742 --> 02:08:34.702
Because in German, the, or

02:08:34.792 --> 02:08:35.692
Karla Brahms: they can just Google.

02:08:35.692 --> 02:08:36.172
Kala.

02:08:36.447 --> 02:08:36.797
Brams.

02:08:37.087 --> 02:08:37.637
Rupert Isaacson: There we go.

02:08:37.737 --> 02:08:38.517
Karla Brahms: You will find me.

02:08:38.962 --> 02:08:39.382
Brams.

02:08:39.382 --> 02:08:40.402
Like, Beethoven,

02:08:40.612 --> 02:08:41.722
Rupert Isaacson: like the, like B

02:08:41.722 --> 02:08:42.472
Karla Brahms: Kala with a K.

02:08:42.862 --> 02:08:43.252
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:08:43.792 --> 02:08:46.522
Carla with a k, K-A-R-L-A.

02:08:46.732 --> 02:08:47.692
And Brahms.

02:08:47.692 --> 02:08:50.242
B-R-A-H-M-S.

02:08:50.422 --> 02:08:53.752
But we will of course also put
your website in the show notes.

02:08:54.262 --> 02:08:54.392
Thank you.

02:08:54.392 --> 02:08:54.402
Yeah.

02:08:54.402 --> 02:09:00.232
So re if you, you know, if you can't
get your English heim, if you a, if

02:09:00.232 --> 02:09:03.712
you can't get your English speaking
head around that, and a few years

02:09:03.712 --> 02:09:05.002
ago, I wouldn't have been able to.

02:09:05.522 --> 02:09:06.212
Don't worry.

02:09:06.262 --> 02:09:14.362
Carla Brahms type her into Google, but you
could also type in horses, equine therapy.

02:09:14.422 --> 02:09:16.132
Carla Brahms it, she'll come up.

02:09:16.342 --> 02:09:21.472
But Len Reer, W-E-L-L-E-N.

02:09:21.472 --> 02:09:26.512
And then re is R-E-I-T-E-R.

02:09:27.112 --> 02:09:28.072
All one word.

02:09:28.462 --> 02:09:28.942
Len Writer.

02:09:28.972 --> 02:09:30.952
If you type that in, Carla Brahms.

02:09:31.372 --> 02:09:35.302
Yeah, she's gonna come up, but as
you say, you can also contact us.

02:09:35.362 --> 02:09:35.542
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

02:09:35.602 --> 02:09:39.282
Rupert Isaacson: But I think I, I think
it's it's it's a field we need to expand.

02:09:39.492 --> 02:09:43.392
I think it's an underserved area.

02:09:43.872 --> 02:09:46.962
We know that most people
who are going through grief

02:09:47.502 --> 02:09:47.772
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

02:09:47.772 --> 02:09:52.152
Rupert Isaacson: Are facing the tyranny of
this kind of taboo that we talked about.

02:09:53.262 --> 02:09:54.822
Karla Brahms: And just
hope to see you soon.

02:09:56.592 --> 02:09:57.312
Rupert Isaacson: Say that again.

02:09:57.672 --> 02:09:59.502
Karla Brahms: And I just
hope to see you soon.

02:10:01.212 --> 02:10:04.662
Rupert Isaacson: Well, the other
thing, which if you're listening to

02:10:04.662 --> 02:10:13.512
this, you might want to consider is
every June there is a massive reggae

02:10:13.512 --> 02:10:17.862
party at Carla's place in the forest.

02:10:17.862 --> 02:10:24.612
And the stage is the style, the, the open,
stable, where the horses normally are.

02:10:24.612 --> 02:10:28.872
The horses go to the field for this
and give it over to the reggae bands.

02:10:29.532 --> 02:10:33.372
And we dance in that space.

02:10:33.372 --> 02:10:35.652
And then the forest goes up
from there and there are hammer.

02:10:35.652 --> 02:10:37.062
It's just, it's like a festival.

02:10:37.062 --> 02:10:37.362
Karla Brahms: Yeah.

02:10:37.662 --> 02:10:37.962
And we,

02:10:37.962 --> 02:10:38.202
Rupert Isaacson: and it's

02:10:38.352 --> 02:10:40.992
Karla Brahms: Celebrate
Love, music and life.

02:10:41.652 --> 02:10:46.362
Rupert Isaacson: It, it's one of the
most joyful events I've ever attended.

02:10:46.512 --> 02:10:51.012
It's everything a festival should be
because it's not an official festival.

02:10:51.722 --> 02:10:57.742
And it's also a, a fundraiser
for you'll experience.

02:10:58.102 --> 02:10:58.642
Excellent.

02:10:58.642 --> 02:11:03.802
Reggae, excellent nature, German
culture, warmth, love, happiness.

02:11:04.322 --> 02:11:06.512
You can fly into Frankfurt
Airport to go there.

02:11:07.362 --> 02:11:09.402
I highly recommend it.

02:11:09.612 --> 02:11:12.162
Bring a sleeping bag, sleep
in the forest, sleep in one

02:11:12.162 --> 02:11:13.692
of the hammocks, bring a tent.

02:11:14.472 --> 02:11:20.142
I'm gonna try to be there for this
one because we'll be up in Germany

02:11:20.142 --> 02:11:21.252
on and off through the summer.

02:11:21.792 --> 02:11:22.872
We'll prioritize it.

02:11:22.872 --> 02:11:23.382
Karla Brahms: Mm-hmm.

02:11:23.622 --> 02:11:23.772
Rupert Isaacson: It's on

02:11:23.862 --> 02:11:23.922
Karla Brahms: the

02:11:23.922 --> 02:11:24.312
Rupert Isaacson: last

02:11:24.312 --> 02:11:25.392
Karla Brahms: Saturday in June.

02:11:25.602 --> 02:11:29.842
Rupert Isaacson: I know that I have to
be in the USA in, in Michigan in June,

02:11:30.142 --> 02:11:32.062
but I'm hoping we're we're back for it.

02:11:32.362 --> 02:11:32.422
Karla Brahms: Okay.

02:11:33.232 --> 02:11:33.772
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:11:35.032 --> 02:11:44.632
And it's, it just, it, it, that reggae
night is the absolute product of Carla

02:11:44.632 --> 02:11:52.942
and Jan's relationship, and if anything,
served as a metaphor for the absolute

02:11:52.972 --> 02:11:57.802
excellence of that human relationship.

02:11:57.802 --> 02:12:02.302
It's that event, which has
been going for some years now.

02:12:02.692 --> 02:12:03.352
Karla Brahms: Thank you.

02:12:03.622 --> 02:12:06.892
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, Carla, it's
been a real honor to talk to you.

02:12:07.432 --> 02:12:08.392
Karla Brahms: Same, same.

02:12:10.012 --> 02:12:10.552
Rupert Isaacson: Always.

02:12:11.422 --> 02:12:13.132
So, until soon.

02:12:13.582 --> 02:12:14.842
Karla Brahms: Until soon, yeah.

02:12:15.084 --> 02:12:18.204
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

02:12:18.744 --> 02:12:23.644
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02:12:23.654 --> 02:12:27.824
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02:13:23.439 --> 02:13:26.249
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