WEBVTT 00:00:02.929 --> 00:00:06.629 Matt Abrahams: A truly fulfilling and meaningful life is not just 00:00:06.629 --> 00:00:09.828 about lifespan, it's about joy span. 00:00:10.518 --> 00:00:13.499 My name is Matt Abrahams, and I teach Strategic Communication at 00:00:13.499 --> 00:00:15.189 Stanford Graduate School of Business. 00:00:15.588 --> 00:00:18.838 Welcome to Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:00:19.359 --> 00:00:21.908 Today, I am really excited to chat with Kerry Burnight. 00:00:22.398 --> 00:00:25.389 Kerry is a world renowned gerontologist and advocate for the 00:00:25.389 --> 00:00:29.109 elderly, who has spent over 20 years improving the lives of older adults. 00:00:29.549 --> 00:00:32.738 She is a former professor of geriatric medicine at the University of 00:00:32.738 --> 00:00:36.038 California, Irvine, and currently at the University of Chicago. 00:00:36.459 --> 00:00:40.918 She specializes in using technology and compassionate communication to change how 00:00:40.918 --> 00:00:43.328 society values and interacts with elders. 00:00:43.668 --> 00:00:47.019 Her latest book is called Joy Span: The Art and Science of 00:00:47.019 --> 00:00:49.259 Thriving in Life's Second Half. 00:00:50.019 --> 00:00:50.799 Welcome, Kerry. 00:00:50.799 --> 00:00:52.170 Thank you so much for being here. 00:00:52.170 --> 00:00:55.010 We have friends in common, and I am so thrilled to actually be 00:00:55.010 --> 00:00:57.820 talking to you in person, not just via text and on the phone. 00:00:57.820 --> 00:01:02.070 Kerry Burnight: Oh, well, as a listener of your podcast, I feel especially excited. 00:01:02.310 --> 00:01:03.049 Matt Abrahams: Well, thank you. 00:01:03.280 --> 00:01:03.919 Shall we get started? 00:01:03.949 --> 00:01:04.589 Kerry Burnight: Please. 00:01:05.009 --> 00:01:08.460 Matt Abrahams: I would love to start with the concept of joy span. 00:01:08.600 --> 00:01:11.969 What is it, and how is it different from lifespan and healthspan? 00:01:12.739 --> 00:01:16.389 Kerry Burnight: As a gerontologist, I spent the last 30 years talking 00:01:16.389 --> 00:01:18.719 about lifespan, how long we live. 00:01:18.979 --> 00:01:19.950 And it's a good start. 00:01:20.509 --> 00:01:26.100 But more recently, in the 1980s, we have added the concept of healthspan, which 00:01:26.100 --> 00:01:31.419 has been really helpful because you want to live as healthy as you can for as long 00:01:31.419 --> 00:01:33.559 as you can, physically and cognitively. 00:01:33.919 --> 00:01:37.989 The problem was I would have a lot of people I would work with who lived 00:01:37.989 --> 00:01:42.509 long lives and were in pretty darn good physical health and were miserable. 00:01:42.899 --> 00:01:48.620 So then the question is: why is it that some people are enjoying these long lives 00:01:48.649 --> 00:01:50.820 and some people are suffering so much? 00:01:51.309 --> 00:01:54.940 So I really dug into the literature on wellbeing, which I know is one of 00:01:54.940 --> 00:02:00.829 your interests, and what I learned was there's so much that we can be doing to 00:02:00.829 --> 00:02:03.410 impact the quality of our long lives. 00:02:03.880 --> 00:02:08.695 So joy span Is simply how many years you enjoy living. 00:02:09.335 --> 00:02:15.625 And it's a biggie, and joy is often not clearly defined, so I wanted 00:02:15.625 --> 00:02:21.925 to start with that because what joy is not is toxic positivity, happy, 00:02:21.925 --> 00:02:26.624 happy, pretend things aren't hard, because growing older is hard. 00:02:26.935 --> 00:02:28.345 There's a lot of challenges. 00:02:28.345 --> 00:02:32.415 I don't know anybody who escapes all the challenges of growing older. 00:02:33.175 --> 00:02:37.214 But joy, as defined by the American Psychological Association, is 00:02:37.214 --> 00:02:39.614 well-being and life satisfaction. 00:02:40.524 --> 00:02:45.454 And I love that Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama wrote a book called The 00:02:45.454 --> 00:02:47.574 Book of Joy, which is such a good book. 00:02:48.005 --> 00:02:51.145 And they really differentiate between happiness and joy. 00:02:51.305 --> 00:02:58.455 So happiness being often circumstantial or outside in, whereas joy is more akin 00:02:58.455 --> 00:03:05.505 to contentment and being able to feel some wellbeing regardless of circumstance. 00:03:05.535 --> 00:03:09.884 And that's when I knew I had my word joy span because it is the regardless 00:03:09.884 --> 00:03:11.855 of circumstance that we're after. 00:03:12.094 --> 00:03:13.184 Matt Abrahams: Really interesting. 00:03:13.184 --> 00:03:18.035 So it's not about the context, it's about the internal perspective. 00:03:18.614 --> 00:03:21.675 You know, and people who listen and watch know, that I love words. 00:03:21.675 --> 00:03:25.994 And a word like joy span is one that's very inviting and makes people curious, 00:03:25.994 --> 00:03:29.055 and I think that opens them up to learning the, the many things you have to share. 00:03:29.585 --> 00:03:33.134 Speaking of sharing, you have created a joy span matrix, which 00:03:33.134 --> 00:03:36.904 consists of four components, grow, connect, adapt, and give. 00:03:37.184 --> 00:03:39.805 And in your awesome book, you dedicate a chapter to each. 00:03:39.985 --> 00:03:42.884 So I know we won't do it justice in just this brief conversation, but 00:03:42.884 --> 00:03:46.324 can you give us a little bit of an overview of those four components? 00:03:46.354 --> 00:03:46.955 Kerry Burnight: Yes. 00:03:47.065 --> 00:03:50.985 I just scoured the literature on wellbeing in longevity. 00:03:51.104 --> 00:03:56.665 Why, why, why some people from the outside have the same health conditions, the same 00:03:56.665 --> 00:04:01.885 socioeconomic status, the same exercise, eating, and yet such different experience. 00:04:02.335 --> 00:04:07.305 And what I found was there were these, they grouped into four elements, and 00:04:07.375 --> 00:04:12.615 I spent a ridiculous amount of wasted time trying to make a cute acronym. 00:04:12.865 --> 00:04:16.705 And one day I was just sitting in my coffee shop where I write 00:04:16.735 --> 00:04:21.424 and I thought, in this occasion, it is just the words that it is. 00:04:21.674 --> 00:04:26.754 So it is four words that the listeners can take to heart, and they're all 00:04:26.754 --> 00:04:29.934 verbs because they all take action. 00:04:30.165 --> 00:04:31.095 They take effort. 00:04:31.585 --> 00:04:35.275 And there is a little way to remember them, and it starts and ends with a 00:04:35.275 --> 00:04:37.544 G, so there are G's on the outside. 00:04:37.955 --> 00:04:43.714 And then I, the author, happen to be from California, so there's CA in the middle. 00:04:44.485 --> 00:04:48.174 So we're gonna start with the G, and that first is grow. 00:04:48.635 --> 00:04:53.995 So what the literature shows us, that those people who enjoy their long lives, 00:04:53.995 --> 00:05:01.185 who age well, are people who are committed to continue to develop themselves. 00:05:01.445 --> 00:05:04.795 So as younger people, we're all the time saying, "Matt, climb up 00:05:04.795 --> 00:05:07.445 on the diving board. Do this, do that." Things you've never done. 00:05:07.764 --> 00:05:12.245 As we get older, understandably, sometimes we lean out. 00:05:12.594 --> 00:05:18.579 And the reason for it is that we have been programmed through a multi-billion 00:05:18.579 --> 00:05:25.059 dollar anti-aging industry telling us that it is bad to get old, it 00:05:25.059 --> 00:05:28.609 is ugly, it is less than, you're, you don't have as much to give. 00:05:28.899 --> 00:05:32.340 And because of that, we then are not leaning in to keep growing. 00:05:33.250 --> 00:05:37.080 But the reality is there are many things that get better as you 00:05:37.080 --> 00:05:40.500 get older, and we'll probably get into that later because it's not 00:05:40.500 --> 00:05:42.340 publicized, because it's not lucrative. 00:05:42.850 --> 00:05:45.809 So we started with grow, continuing to keep going. 00:05:46.299 --> 00:05:49.169 Next, we're going to the C, and that's connect. 00:05:49.680 --> 00:05:53.540 So we know from the literature that connection between humans 00:05:53.579 --> 00:05:57.520 is a non-negotiable, regardless of how introverted you are. 00:05:58.009 --> 00:06:04.790 You can be lonely in a marriage or in a group, or you can be fulfilled, but we 00:06:04.790 --> 00:06:11.259 require some back and forth, and that we simply can't rest on the oars of 00:06:11.400 --> 00:06:17.000 longtime friendships because when you, like my patients, live into your 90s, 00:06:17.270 --> 00:06:20.999 you outlive your friends, or they move away, or they have cognitive impairment. 00:06:21.460 --> 00:06:25.689 The sentence I use here is to be that friend who picks up the phone, who 00:06:25.689 --> 00:06:29.329 remembers it's been two years since your father's passing, who says, "May 00:06:29.329 --> 00:06:33.210 I drive you to chemo?" Who says, "I'm making a book club, do you want to 00:06:33.210 --> 00:06:35.259 join?" You got to put yourself out there. 00:06:35.489 --> 00:06:37.159 Matt Abrahams: And proactive and persistent. 00:06:37.329 --> 00:06:37.899 Kerry Burnight: Yes. 00:06:38.090 --> 00:06:39.600 Then brings us to the third. 00:06:39.600 --> 00:06:41.270 We've got grow, connect. 00:06:41.549 --> 00:06:42.939 The A is adapt. 00:06:43.020 --> 00:06:48.369 So that literature was actually out of a researcher in Israel who found 00:06:48.369 --> 00:06:54.989 that people who could enjoy their long lives were people who could adapt. 00:06:55.419 --> 00:06:55.639 Because, 00:06:55.850 --> 00:06:55.939 Matt Abrahams: Right. 00:06:55.939 --> 00:06:56.960 So not set in your ways. 00:06:57.270 --> 00:07:01.759 Kerry Burnight: Not set in your ways, but also recognizing that circumstances 00:07:01.759 --> 00:07:07.499 are going to come regardless of all your burpees and green juices and 00:07:07.499 --> 00:07:09.630 plunges, and all the things we're doing. 00:07:09.970 --> 00:07:13.359 There will be changes, and they're not things you necessarily anticipate. 00:07:13.640 --> 00:07:17.749 Even things, for example, when I was writing the chapter on adaptation, 00:07:18.140 --> 00:07:22.859 our 25-year-old daughter was diagnosed with a brain tumor, and it 00:07:22.859 --> 00:07:27.304 was devastating because I thought, well, that can't possibly be. 00:07:27.304 --> 00:07:29.065 And then here I'm writing about adapting. 00:07:29.065 --> 00:07:31.364 I was like, no, that is life. 00:07:31.474 --> 00:07:36.945 Another word for aging is living, and you're going to have these things 00:07:36.945 --> 00:07:39.164 come your way that you didn't expect. 00:07:39.674 --> 00:07:45.775 And when they do, not if they do, when they do, how we adjust to those is what 00:07:45.994 --> 00:07:51.365 predicts how we will experience our long life, and indeed how we'll be remembered. 00:07:51.795 --> 00:07:57.464 So this ability to adapt to these things that you never asked for really matters. 00:07:58.175 --> 00:08:01.295 And then gets to our final G, and that is give. 00:08:01.874 --> 00:08:07.205 And so there's a big literature around purpose and contribution. 00:08:07.624 --> 00:08:13.394 And again, when we recognize all that we have to give as we get older, and we 00:08:13.394 --> 00:08:19.475 reject the notion that we have less to give, we recognize the world needs what 00:08:19.545 --> 00:08:22.554 older Matt, older Kerry have to offer. 00:08:22.885 --> 00:08:28.115 For example, as we get older, we have the potential for increased problem-solving, 00:08:28.604 --> 00:08:34.405 increased appreciation of connection, increased and deepening spirituality, 00:08:34.634 --> 00:08:36.994 appreciation of beauty, humility. 00:08:37.204 --> 00:08:40.735 I mean, can you imagine if we all step up and lean into our humility, 00:08:40.735 --> 00:08:42.375 what this would do as a nation? 00:08:42.744 --> 00:08:48.225 So society needs us to give what this older version has to offer. 00:08:48.985 --> 00:08:53.554 Matt Abrahams: So these four together make the joy span matrix. 00:08:53.634 --> 00:08:57.915 And we can work on each of these components to help us build 00:08:57.915 --> 00:08:59.395 and appreciate our joy span. 00:08:59.714 --> 00:09:01.384 I have to ask, is your daughter okay? 00:09:01.674 --> 00:09:02.095 Kerry Burnight: Yes. 00:09:02.095 --> 00:09:03.324 Thank you for asking. 00:09:03.324 --> 00:09:08.454 So she was packed up to go to medical school, got this diagnosis. 00:09:08.894 --> 00:09:14.814 We were all devastated, and she wasn't able to then go because she then instead 00:09:14.814 --> 00:09:19.795 moved home and was on the patient side instead of on the doctor side. 00:09:20.585 --> 00:09:25.859 And as life does, we adapted, and she adapted. 00:09:25.960 --> 00:09:29.040 And so now she has an MRI every six months. 00:09:29.279 --> 00:09:32.379 She went to a different school that's next to her neurosurgeon. 00:09:32.700 --> 00:09:34.749 She's gotten used to some of the side effects. 00:09:34.749 --> 00:09:36.379 So did we pick it? 00:09:36.379 --> 00:09:36.900 No. 00:09:37.289 --> 00:09:40.430 Is it life and there's still so much goodness? 00:09:40.560 --> 00:09:40.879 Yes. 00:09:40.879 --> 00:09:41.629 So thank you. 00:09:41.629 --> 00:09:42.689 She's doing just fine. 00:09:42.689 --> 00:09:46.310 Matt Abrahams: I'm glad to hear that, and what an example of adapting. 00:09:46.779 --> 00:09:50.000 And speaking of examples, one of the things that was so touching about 00:09:50.000 --> 00:09:54.740 your book is with each of those four areas, you not only explain 00:09:54.740 --> 00:09:59.339 them, but you use a person, a real person, and walk through how they 00:09:59.339 --> 00:10:01.589 are realizing and actualizing that. 00:10:02.050 --> 00:10:05.499 And one of the things that brought a smile to my face is you use your own mother, 00:10:05.499 --> 00:10:08.499 who is in her 90s, as an example as well. 00:10:09.089 --> 00:10:12.010 As you were writing, I just want to get a little meta about your 00:10:12.010 --> 00:10:16.300 thought process, why did you decide to tell personal stories of people 00:10:16.600 --> 00:10:18.929 to help understand these concepts? 00:10:18.929 --> 00:10:21.199 Because it really helped me to get it. 00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:22.050 Kerry Burnight: Yes. 00:10:22.390 --> 00:10:29.229 People love aspirational examples, and we have that in other parts of our lives. 00:10:29.259 --> 00:10:34.290 We look ahead to our professors, and yet we haven't traditionally had as 00:10:34.320 --> 00:10:38.259 many role models so readily available. 00:10:38.299 --> 00:10:43.839 But now, happily, with things like social media and a recognition from 00:10:43.839 --> 00:10:49.409 this beauty industry that there is great beauty in so many of us. 00:10:49.909 --> 00:10:53.790 And so with my mom, it was such, it's a mutual learning. 00:10:53.790 --> 00:10:59.939 And so she'll be 97 next month, and she wasn't particularly fitness guru. 00:10:59.939 --> 00:11:01.119 She didn't eat perfect. 00:11:01.119 --> 00:11:05.280 She had a cocktail and a dessert most nights, and she wasn't even on 00:11:05.280 --> 00:11:08.129 a path that was particularly great. 00:11:08.220 --> 00:11:14.710 But happily, as I, 30 years ago, would learn things in my studies, I would say, 00:11:14.769 --> 00:11:20.390 "Oh, Mom, did you know that something as simple as doing a gratitude journal 00:11:20.390 --> 00:11:24.600 can statistically change da, da, da?" So she started incorporating these 00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:30.240 things, and now I'm the one always learning from her because she is the 00:11:30.240 --> 00:11:32.130 best version of herself right now. 00:11:32.130 --> 00:11:39.220 She is vital, hilarious, humble, beautiful, radiant, and I, I felt 00:11:39.220 --> 00:11:42.390 I couldn't keep her to myself, so I started sharing her on social 00:11:42.390 --> 00:11:46.390 media, and now millions and millions of people are watching her. 00:11:46.500 --> 00:11:51.890 And what they always say is, "I want to be like her." And what I type back is, 00:11:52.050 --> 00:11:57.539 "You can." It isn't accurate that aging is just something that happens to you. 00:11:58.280 --> 00:12:04.239 In fact, the research shows us that between 14 and 25% of 00:12:04.410 --> 00:12:06.679 how you will age is genetic. 00:12:07.425 --> 00:12:12.605 So the rest, we have something that we can do both with our physical, what we do 00:12:12.605 --> 00:12:15.494 moving these bodies, continuing to learn. 00:12:15.914 --> 00:12:21.874 But a lot of the emphasis right now is the exterior, the meat bag, the carrying case. 00:12:22.204 --> 00:12:27.554 And it does matter, but I'd never go to a funeral and have people say, "Did you 00:12:27.554 --> 00:12:34.164 know that guy's VO2 max? It was really impressive." They say things like, "Wow, 00:12:34.164 --> 00:12:38.504 when nobody was looking, he mentored me. He took me to the side, and he gave me 00:12:38.504 --> 00:12:43.374 a shot." A lot of these interior things that end up being the biggies in life. 00:12:44.175 --> 00:12:47.944 Matt Abrahams: Wow, the power of stories to motivate, and I love 00:12:47.944 --> 00:12:51.324 that you've made your mom a social influencer, and that she's embraced it. 00:12:51.714 --> 00:12:55.854 And how lovely to be able to teach her and have her teach you simultaneously. 00:12:55.885 --> 00:12:57.284 Kerry Burnight: Oh, she teaches me so much. 00:12:57.284 --> 00:13:02.935 So just yesterday, I was at her house, and I had the thought, "She doesn't 00:13:02.935 --> 00:13:07.705 complain." And she did, she used to years ago when she was only in her 50s. 00:13:08.095 --> 00:13:11.935 And so I said, "How is it that you don't complain?" And I just, in one shot, 00:13:12.194 --> 00:13:16.915 turned my camera on her, and she talked about how she just inside her mind says, 00:13:17.165 --> 00:13:21.165 "Oh, Betty, knock it off." And so then there have been thousands of people who 00:13:21.165 --> 00:13:23.024 have laughed, "Oh, Betty, knock it off." 00:13:23.654 --> 00:13:26.414 Matt Abrahams: Another technique that you use in your writing, which I love 00:13:26.414 --> 00:13:30.485 because I am a quote collector, you use lots of quotes, and some of my favorite 00:13:30.485 --> 00:13:32.854 quotes in your work are quotes you had. 00:13:32.955 --> 00:13:36.194 And one that really stood out to me is, "Your habits have more power to 00:13:36.194 --> 00:13:39.664 shape your health than your genes ever will." And you've talked a little 00:13:39.664 --> 00:13:41.365 bit about the percentages there. 00:13:41.685 --> 00:13:45.305 But can you give us some insight into what are those habits, and are there 00:13:45.305 --> 00:13:49.375 habits that we should adopt for mind, body, and spirit, and connection? 00:13:49.474 --> 00:13:50.095 Kerry Burnight: Yes. 00:13:50.204 --> 00:13:56.575 And the step one that I want you to adopt today is how you 00:13:56.904 --> 00:13:58.735 think about growing older. 00:13:59.134 --> 00:14:04.645 Because most of us, understandably, see it as all decline, and we've 00:14:04.645 --> 00:14:09.294 been taught that, and to think, name something, it's gonna go downhill. 00:14:09.814 --> 00:14:12.865 Well, when you expect that, that is really what happens. 00:14:12.865 --> 00:14:14.104 Matt Abrahams: It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. 00:14:14.674 --> 00:14:16.744 Kerry Burnight: The problem is it simply isn't true. 00:14:16.835 --> 00:14:21.174 So I think in terms of ways that you could make a difference in your own 00:14:21.215 --> 00:14:29.624 aging is to just today say, "Every time I hear my internalized ageism," 00:14:29.624 --> 00:14:34.814 so I think of it, we all talk about AI, this is IA. For example, you can't find 00:14:34.814 --> 00:14:39.185 your car for a moment in the parking lot and you think, "Oh, there it is. 00:14:39.185 --> 00:14:43.124 I'm losing it." No, you couldn't find your car when you were 23. 00:14:43.585 --> 00:14:48.115 And so you could replace that thought with, "Don't be silly. 00:14:48.115 --> 00:14:52.494 It's not an aging thing." Or when you say to yourself, "It's too late," or I say 00:14:52.494 --> 00:14:56.505 to myself, for example, I'll be looking at my phone, and it will flip around, and 00:14:56.505 --> 00:14:59.435 I'll see like 25,000 chins under here. 00:14:59.734 --> 00:15:02.524 And my first reaction is like, "Oh, no." And then I think, 00:15:02.695 --> 00:15:04.435 of course, I'm in my late 50s. 00:15:04.884 --> 00:15:06.185 That's what necks do. 00:15:06.185 --> 00:15:07.685 It's no personal shame. 00:15:07.965 --> 00:15:08.884 It's not a tragedy. 00:15:08.884 --> 00:15:09.825 It's not ugly. 00:15:09.905 --> 00:15:10.774 It's okay. 00:15:11.215 --> 00:15:15.195 And it's so liberating to combat our internalized ageism. 00:15:15.695 --> 00:15:17.555 And nobody's gonna do it for us. 00:15:17.555 --> 00:15:23.324 So a 20-year-old is not going to go, "Ah-ha, growing older is..." It needs 00:15:23.324 --> 00:15:26.165 to come from us, those who are aging. 00:15:26.264 --> 00:15:29.964 And so, for example, I work with a lot of people in their 80s and 90s, and 00:15:29.964 --> 00:15:34.255 some younger people think it's such a compliment to say, "Oh, Matt, you 00:15:34.255 --> 00:15:38.814 don't even look like you're 85." The thing is, we've already been young. 00:15:38.814 --> 00:15:41.855 The goal is not to stay young. 00:15:42.105 --> 00:15:46.434 So what we say now is when people say, "You don't look 85," you say, 00:15:46.434 --> 00:15:51.174 "This is what 85 looks like." Or they say, "You don't even seem old." I 00:15:51.174 --> 00:15:56.014 want to lean into it because that's how we're going to revolutionize and 00:15:56.014 --> 00:15:58.764 change aging, as a new longevity. 00:15:58.764 --> 00:16:03.285 It's a new way to maximize all 100 years. 00:16:03.974 --> 00:16:06.015 Matt Abrahams: I really like that approach, and I appreciate the 00:16:06.015 --> 00:16:08.924 specifics there because I find myself saying some very similar things. 00:16:08.924 --> 00:16:09.305 Kerry Burnight: We all do. 00:16:09.345 --> 00:16:10.075 I do, too. 00:16:10.075 --> 00:16:15.355 And there's no way we couldn't, because ever since you were a little boy, they 00:16:15.355 --> 00:16:19.824 read you a story and said, "Hansel and Gretel went out, and this old witch 00:16:19.824 --> 00:16:24.615 with a long nose was going to eat them." And that was our introduction to old. 00:16:25.164 --> 00:16:27.474 Matt Abrahams: My mother is in her late 80s, and I'll say, "Hey, you're 00:16:27.474 --> 00:16:30.554 doing great for somebody in your 80s," and she hates that last part, 00:16:30.644 --> 00:16:33.215 and it reminds me to stop saying it. 00:16:34.305 --> 00:16:36.014 Kerry, I knew this was going to be a great conversation. 00:16:36.014 --> 00:16:36.955 It certainly has been. 00:16:37.275 --> 00:16:40.304 I'd like to end with three questions, as you know, as a listener, the first 00:16:40.304 --> 00:16:41.295 one I'm going to make up just for you. 00:16:41.295 --> 00:16:42.574 The other two I ask everybody. 00:16:42.675 --> 00:16:43.124 You up for that? 00:16:43.254 --> 00:16:43.854 Kerry Burnight: Yes. 00:16:43.905 --> 00:16:44.324 Matt Abrahams: Excellent. 00:16:44.754 --> 00:16:45.815 I'm really curious. 00:16:45.815 --> 00:16:50.955 As somebody who's studied joy and joy span, what is the one thing that you have 00:16:50.955 --> 00:16:56.025 found in your own life that has really made a difference in your experience of 00:16:56.025 --> 00:17:01.435 joy and do you think is setting you on the path to having a healthy, long joy span? 00:17:02.214 --> 00:17:06.504 Kerry Burnight: If I had to summarize it in one word, it would be choice, 00:17:07.054 --> 00:17:12.595 that we have a choice in how we live and experience these long lives, 00:17:12.974 --> 00:17:18.635 even if we lose our vision, even if we are confined to bed, even if when 00:17:18.775 --> 00:17:23.505 our partners pass away, we have a choice in how we respond to those. 00:17:23.505 --> 00:17:27.425 So that's like Viktor Frankl's Man's Search for Meaning, where he says, 00:17:27.425 --> 00:17:31.194 "The one thing that we have..." Here he was in a concentration camp, 00:17:31.764 --> 00:17:36.895 and he said, "We can choose that spiritual freedom of how we respond." 00:17:36.984 --> 00:17:39.815 I just, I find that so comforting. 00:17:40.455 --> 00:17:41.145 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for that. 00:17:41.205 --> 00:17:44.984 It's very empowering, and I appreciate you choosing choice as your answer. 00:17:45.484 --> 00:17:48.944 Question number two, who's a communicator that you admire and why? 00:17:49.794 --> 00:17:56.264 Kerry Burnight: I am a big fan these days of Helen Mirren, who is an actress who is 00:17:56.860 --> 00:18:04.089 leaning into being beautiful and radiant and strong and irreverent in her 80s. 00:18:04.510 --> 00:18:08.359 And when people say, "You're young," she'll say, "No, I'm 00:18:08.359 --> 00:18:10.099 not, and I don't wanna be. 00:18:10.219 --> 00:18:11.200 I've been young. 00:18:11.580 --> 00:18:19.479 I'm old." And to use those words to take back, that it can be absolutely, it's 00:18:19.479 --> 00:18:23.159 our definition of what it means, and that it's not... And when if somebody 00:18:23.159 --> 00:18:28.640 says you look old, that is not an insult, or you don't have to take it as such. 00:18:28.870 --> 00:18:31.850 And it's not a compliment to say you look good for your age. 00:18:31.850 --> 00:18:34.730 You just, you look good, and who cares even how you look? 00:18:34.760 --> 00:18:38.649 But I, when Helen Mirren speaks, I listen. 00:18:39.070 --> 00:18:39.859 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:18:39.929 --> 00:18:42.080 Not only is she a phenomenal actress, she's got a wonderful 00:18:42.080 --> 00:18:46.240 resonant voice, and I love that she is adopting what you said, choice. 00:18:46.240 --> 00:18:49.990 She's making choices to really lean into her age and her profession. 00:18:49.990 --> 00:18:53.129 Kerry Burnight: And she's changing it for people who come behind us, and 00:18:53.129 --> 00:18:56.739 that's something that we can do for our children, is that we can change, 00:18:57.179 --> 00:19:02.040 I'm seeing it in my lifetime because in the beginning when I, 30 years ago, 00:19:02.079 --> 00:19:08.479 it was people sitting in wheelchairs in the hall, slumped all the way over with 00:19:08.850 --> 00:19:12.909 loud TVs blaring nonsense, and it's not. 00:19:13.040 --> 00:19:14.159 We're changing that. 00:19:14.379 --> 00:19:18.000 And so within our lifetimes, we're changing and how great we can set 00:19:18.000 --> 00:19:19.839 it up for our kids and grandkids. 00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:20.759 Matt Abrahams: Absolutely. 00:19:20.759 --> 00:19:21.479 Absolutely. 00:19:21.479 --> 00:19:24.670 My wife and I are making conscious choices to help make sure our kids 00:19:24.670 --> 00:19:29.079 see their grandparents aging, but also our aging, so they can see what that's 00:19:29.079 --> 00:19:30.570 like and the choices they can make. 00:19:31.259 --> 00:19:31.970 Final question. 00:19:32.070 --> 00:19:36.519 What are the first three ingredients that go into a successful communication recipe? 00:19:37.189 --> 00:19:37.589 Kerry Burnight: Okay. 00:19:37.589 --> 00:19:42.199 Could I change it to do a successful communication recipe when you're 00:19:42.199 --> 00:19:43.759 working with older adults? 00:19:44.060 --> 00:19:45.010 Matt Abrahams: You may do that. 00:19:45.450 --> 00:19:46.300 Absolutely. 00:19:46.320 --> 00:19:48.320 Again, making a bold choice. 00:19:48.339 --> 00:19:49.110 But yes, please. 00:19:49.290 --> 00:19:51.650 Kerry Burnight: So the first is listen. 00:19:52.189 --> 00:19:55.960 Close your mouth for a minute and slow down and listen. 00:19:56.559 --> 00:20:01.000 The second is particularly if you, like me, you have a higher 00:20:01.000 --> 00:20:03.820 voice, to lower your voice. 00:20:03.820 --> 00:20:06.370 We lose hearing in our higher register. 00:20:06.990 --> 00:20:14.029 So what happens is I'm talking to somebody, and to make it louder, I come 00:20:14.029 --> 00:20:16.480 higher, then they really can't hear me. 00:20:16.999 --> 00:20:19.310 Go a little bit lower down here. 00:20:19.350 --> 00:20:24.019 And so I do this with my patients of, "It's great to see you today, Mrs. Jones. 00:20:24.019 --> 00:20:26.650 How are you?" I don't have to go louder. 00:20:26.650 --> 00:20:27.840 I can just go lower. 00:20:28.510 --> 00:20:34.840 And then the third component is to always be eye level with people 00:20:34.840 --> 00:20:40.219 who are older because this thing of standing up above and leaning over 00:20:40.219 --> 00:20:45.109 down to somebody's chair or wheelchair, it doesn't set up the right vibe. 00:20:45.389 --> 00:20:50.409 So if you can, just to get to face to face, and then we can 00:20:50.409 --> 00:20:54.829 hear better, we can read lips, we can connect better face to face. 00:20:55.690 --> 00:20:57.620 Matt Abrahams: The three Ls, I love it. 00:20:57.809 --> 00:21:01.559 Uh, listen, lower your voice, and get to that level. 00:21:01.590 --> 00:21:04.859 And I think that's advice that, that transcends any communication. 00:21:05.329 --> 00:21:09.130 I really like that idea of lowering your voice, being conscious of not 00:21:09.130 --> 00:21:12.480 just what I'm saying, but how I say it can really help somebody. 00:21:12.480 --> 00:21:12.890 Kerry Burnight: Yes. 00:21:12.919 --> 00:21:19.099 My husband has a very deep voice, and occasionally I can't get to the place that 00:21:19.099 --> 00:21:24.750 I need to, and so I'll just quietly say to him, and then he says the same thing, 00:21:24.849 --> 00:21:26.839 and the person can understand completely. 00:21:27.449 --> 00:21:28.680 Matt Abrahams: Kerry, this has been fantastic. 00:21:28.680 --> 00:21:32.860 Not only have you taught us tips and tools that we can use when working 00:21:32.860 --> 00:21:37.009 with people who are older, but you've also shared with us things we can do to 00:21:37.009 --> 00:21:41.270 increase our joy span and really make the best of the lives that we have. 00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:43.770 And the communication advice transcends age. 00:21:43.829 --> 00:21:45.779 It's all about just how to connect and be present. 00:21:45.829 --> 00:21:46.509 Thank you so much. 00:21:46.509 --> 00:21:47.939 Kerry Burnight: Well, thank you so much. 00:21:49.680 --> 00:21:51.680 Matt Abrahams: Thank you for joining us for another episode of 00:21:51.680 --> 00:21:53.910 Think Fast Talk Smart, the podcast. 00:21:54.320 --> 00:21:56.820 To learn more about aging and communication, please listen 00:21:56.820 --> 00:21:59.500 to episode 176 with Bob McCann. 00:22:00.299 --> 00:22:03.970 Because Kerry provided so many useful tips, tools, and techniques, we 00:22:03.970 --> 00:22:07.529 created a Quick Thinks episode with more of her advice and guidance. 00:22:07.790 --> 00:22:08.419 Check it out. 00:22:09.140 --> 00:22:13.629 This episode was produced by Katherine Reed, Ryan Campos, and me, Matt Abrahams. 00:22:13.930 --> 00:22:17.820 Our music is from Floyd Wonder, with special thanks to Podium Podcast Company. 00:22:18.330 --> 00:22:21.210 Please find us on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts. 00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:23.419 Be sure to subscribe and rate us. 00:22:23.680 --> 00:22:26.430 Also, follow us on LinkedIn, TikTok, and Instagram. 00:22:26.909 --> 00:22:30.779 And check out fastersmarter.io for deep dive videos, English language 00:22:30.779 --> 00:22:32.720 learning content, and our newsletter. 00:22:33.260 --> 00:22:36.290 Please consider joining our Think Fast Talk Smart Learning Community 00:22:36.290 --> 00:22:37.849 at fastersmarter.io/learning. 00:22:37.849 --> 00:22:42.650 You'll find video lessons, learning quests, discussion boards, an AI 00:22:42.650 --> 00:22:44.820 coach, and book club opportunities. 00:22:45.129 --> 00:22:50.010 Again, that's fastersmarter.io/learning to become part of our Think Fast 00:22:50.150 --> 00:22:51.680 Talk Smart Learning Community.