On Making Friends

For the first time in nearly two years, Jen and Jillian got together in the same room to record Juicy Bits, so you know it's going to be good (and weird and messy). The topic of conversation? The toxicity of white womanhood in the wellness industry and let's be honest, in general. Inspired by a column that Jen wrote for the Truckee-based publication Moonshine Ink, this episode explores how Jen and Jillian continue to gain clarity on their values and how their actions fall in line, sometimes resulting in lost friendships, partnerships, and more. Have a listen, and as always, share your feedback at [e-mail].

Show Notes

Read the article from Moonshine Ink here that inspired this recording. 

What is Juicy Bits?

We created Juicy Bits because we wanted to continue the conversations that we start out on the trail and on the chair lift. Hosted by our CEO Jen Gurecki and Ambassador Jillian Raymond, they talk candidly about everything from dude soup, to sex, to politics, to equity in the outdoors. We occasionally (read: frequently) drop F-bombs, interview some of the most interesting people in the outdoors and beyond, and say things that many of us think but don’t feel comfortable saying out loud. If you are easily offended or looking for something that is G Rated, this is not the podcast for you. But if you love truth-telling and irreverence, get ready to laugh, cry, and maybe pee your pants a little bit. 

Hello, and welcome. I'm Jillian Raymond, the co-creator of Juicy Bits and a Coalition Snow Ambassador. And I'm Jen Gurecki, your co-host and the CEO of Coalition Snow. For those of you who are new, get ready to laugh, cry, and maybe pee your pants, a little Juicy Bits is about taking the conversations that we start on the chairlift and at the trailhead and bringing them to you to explore alternative narratives that challenge the status quo about what it means to be a modern woman in the outdoors. Grab your helmet because sometimes it's a bumpy ride. Fyi friends, this podcast is for mature audiences. So you've been warned. Let's get to work and juice the patriarchy.

So, Jillian, you want to hear how I'm making friends this week?

Yes, please. I would love to hear, because usually you're kind of how would I say not making friends? Sometimes that happens whether or not listening. It happens sometimes to our dear Jennifer, by not making friends or by making friends. I mean, by not making friends? Well, I don't know. I will certainly make some friends.

I might have made a comment on an Instagram post from a local publication here in the Tahoe Truckee area around how they should write something about toxic white feminism and the health and wellness movement. And I wrote that in response to seeing a lot of anti backs, anti mask comments on this particular post. So I just dropped that little bundle of love on Instagram thinking that's all that was going to happen, and they messaged me and said, no, actually, will you write that? Will you write that piece? And I explained to them that I'm no expert on this, and I don't even live in Tahoe Truckee. I mean, in the area, obviously, but I don't think I'm the best person to write it. And they said, well, we can't really find anyone else to write it, which just goes to show what a tricky conversation it is. So, of course, being myself, I agreed to write this piece where I explicitly call out white women who are in the health and wellness space or practice within health and wellness. I don't work professionally in health and wellness myself, but yoga and massage and all of that meditation. And I wrote a piece calling them out, basically asking them when they talk about caring for their community and using words like we and us, who in the actual fuck are they talking about other white women, other privileged white women or what? So that's going to get published, actually, by the time our listeners hear this, which is we're recording this at the beginning of December. You all right now are listening to this at the end of December, this piece will have been published, and perhaps my inbox is full of hate mail right now. It's very possible. Also, I fucking delete that shit just so you all know I do not respond, you all can get fucked. But that's what's happening in my life and not just with this article, but with actually some really difficult conversations I'm having with other white women where I'm ending relationships because of antivax antimask sentiments. And I feel like it's something we need to keep talking about. It's interesting, because recently related more to a sense of white feminism, had a similar scenario of really changing a friendship dynamic. And I think for our listeners that might be thinking like, oh, that's just the stuff that you water into the bridge or you just people make mistakes or say wrong things. Yes, but no, in the respective we might all say things that we need to be forgiven for or that come out in a way that we want to be understood. But I think if we confront lovingly in a direct way, friends around real issues like feminism, privilege and we don't get a sense of a reciprocal unlearning and communication. Those are humans that I do not choose to still engage with in my life. And it's partially because I want to keep learning and working and also recognize that that sense of not having to do that is also a privilege, like a dear friend who shall remain nameless or a dear ex friend who once was like, I don't want to talk about politics, and I was like, okay, so then we really have nothing to talk about, right? And it's not that I want. And not that it has to only be that. But I just think that that sense of recognizing if you don't have to talk about those things and you don't have to recognize them, then it's just you just live in this bubble of space where you can't really get critical about the DayToday that we're living in. And I think our day to day right now so much relates to vaccinations boosters masks, understanding what community means. And I think you do a really nice job in the piece. I got to sync preview and got to read it. I'm kind of trying to define what that is so much of what we are doing in. This is not just about protecting ourselves, but it's protecting other people for myself. If I got covet, and again, I get that people who are vaccinated can get COVID, and I get that this is around, I'm probably not going to die. I might be sick for a little bit. I'm going to have access to resources. But if I'm doing it in respect to protect other people, that's that sense of the bigger responsibility. And I've said that actually to a few people in my life. And it's almost like, almost made them speechless where I was like, I think it's everybody's responsibility to do that. And they're just kind of like, dumbfounded, not me. And I'm like, what do you mean, not you? This is like the collective good. You don't live off in like a bubble. You're not onto colonized space. You're not off on a commune with zero interaction with humans. You're like living in this day to day society. Yeah, well, there's obviously so many things that have come up over the past few years where as white women, we get to absolutely critique what we mean by us and we and feminism and women and all of these words that we throw around and with COVID and with the vaccine. To me, it's actually a gift because it's one of the easiest ways that you can see where people actually stand on things. And you can really make some concrete decisions around how I will choose to interact with other people, both personally and professionally, because what people do in terms of getting vaccines and wearing masks and the way that they just talk about this really does say a lot about their values. And while it's certainly I would think that I would like to be the better person and say that I want to listen to all sides, and I want to understand where people are coming from, but I actually don't care. There are certain conversations watching your friend ticker just like, go down and down. You all know that in real life, I'm an introvert, and I really only need, like, five friends. I'm totally fine. Like your master plan. Totally. I'm, like, invite me to everything. I'm not coming. Sorry to reiterate. No, it's okay. But it is this what was I saying? You're talking about how it's kind of illuminating people's values and you can have it see where people stand, and then you're going to have to cut all this shit because I don't even know what's happening right now. This is the first time we're recording face to face in probably almost two years. We have not recorded in the same room together since pre-COVID, and we're doing that right now, and listeners should know we are on our first glasses of wine and there's mini glasses. There are the mini glasses. It's not even like a lot anyways. Okay. I am not the type of person who wants to hear all sides. I'm not trying to seek to understand. I do believe I understand where anti vaxxers and anti mask people are coming from. I have listened to you. I have heard the things that you've said, and I don't fucking care beyond your personal self interest. Those beliefs don't actually do anything for communities who we should care about and for any white woman. If you believe that you are helping women or you want to be a feminist or anything, if you want to talk about women, you absolutely have to apply this intersectional approach. Now, I know I'm saying this and many of our listeners are like, yeah, no shit. But you would be surprised. Or maybe you wouldn't be surprised how to this day. I'm still having conversations with other white women around. This is what intersectional feminism means and the things that you're doing. Perhaps you should Google white feminism and then let's have a conversation around what specifically you could do to learn more and do better and resolve some of this toxic behavior. And it's surprising to me that I'm still having these conversations with people who I at least think, follow me on Instagram and hear all the shit that comes out. I don't even know, but it's been a wild couple of weeks with the number of women who I've had to have these conversations with and how COVID and masks and vaccines just really elucidate the toxicity in all of it. Do you think there's a separation and understanding of how white feminism and the privilege that that can evoke and the choice to not mask, not vaccine for this? We and us. I'm using my air quotes to me. I feel like that's a direct illumination of the fact that how white women have largely benefited from systems of oppression and the larger patriarchy because the sense of them being able to have that choice in their protected bubble because they'll still have access to all the things that they need if they were to get sick or they have access. Social distancing is kind of a privilege or just the fact that they can walk and do whatever the fuck they want. And they're like, no one's going to say anything to me is someone going to say because the amount of people I've seen where I want to be like, are they not wearing a mask because they're vaccinated or not wearing a mask because they're not vaccinated and they're against vaccines? Do I want to be near them? They're not following like what's in the kind of the social fabric right now, which is distancing and mask wearing and increased mandates and governments shutting down and new restrictions and lockdowns all because we can't end this pandemic. But I'm like you white women that are doing that. You kind of just get to exist and walk in this Lane of entitlement and privilege. And I think it's really uncomfortable. But I'm like, if you're not willing to see that, then I just feel like you're further benefiting from the status quo. Well, yeah, because they don't have to see it because they get everything that they want. And this is one thing that I wrote about in this piece, which is in the Moonshine Inc. If anybody wants to read it, is that particularly when you look at privileged white women like you have access to acupuncture, to massage, to healthy food, to rest, to private school, to remote work, the multitudes of things that actually would probably make getting coveted a lot easier than somebody who has to show up at a front line. If you have covet, you can't go pack groceries, you can't wash dishes, you can't clean homes. There's a lot of things that you can't do and to not even recognize that while you may not be afraid of how sick you'll get from Covet and getting Covet is fine. There are certain people who cannot miss work because if they miss work for one week, that could mean the difference of paying rent or not. And it's interesting. There's definitely the other side. I'll say it thinks that we exist in fear, like we're afraid of Covet. I'm not afraid. I got my booster shot this week. I travel, I go to restaurants. I'm living my life. I'm not actually personally concerned. I'm not afraid at all. I have a high level of concern for people who don't have the luxuries that I have, the privileges that I have, who aren't healthy, like I am, who have anything from being immune-compromised to people with disabilities, to anybody who has diabetes or cancer. Any of it. Right. I'm really conscientious around my actions and also the things that not only what I do, but what I say. How is it that I can show up so that people know that I'm doing everything I can to create a safe space for them and for all of the white women who are in this health and wellness? Yeah. You might be creating a safe space for women like you in your yoga class or in your meditation circle or whatever it is that you're doing. But think about all the people who don't have access to what you do because you've just made it fundamentally physically and also emotionally unsafe for them. And don't I actually think that they see this? I really do think that there's a lot of rationalization and justification. Just like anybody who's going to listen to me and disagree with me is going to think the same thing about me. Well, to disconnect if you think about a white woman that identifies as a feminist and doesn't understand white feminism versus hood feminism versus intersection, because what you just spoke to is related to the intersection of economic and social disparities within feminism. And so things like access to food deserts, access to organic food, access to private health care, versus going to the emergency room because that's the only option you have. Those are all feminist concerns and feminist issues. And I think a lot of misconception happens around that because of one. It's easy to just check a box like, oh, of course, my feminist. Oh, of course I'm filling the blank. Not recognizing the layers are really complex. And then it actually goes in a relationship with work, family, access, politics, government. It's like the privilege of I don't want to vote. It's like, what the fuck people fight for the right to see their vote being represented, the gerrymandering that's going on right now to shift the lack of representation in our government, like, there's so much that I think feeds into that intersection. And so the idea of choosing to opt out further illuminates that privilege. But then I also think it actually hurts all women. And the white women don't necessarily have to worry about it. Right? So what is it? They don't have to worry about it. Face with it. It's that defensiveness. That's what I've experienced from a few humans where I'm like, wait, you're taking this as a personal attack against you? And yes, it might be in that conversation, but I'm like, these are systemic pieces, and this is also an understanding of your role in that and your ability to choose to just look away because it's more convenient or it's easier you don't feel like it. And it's like, no, yes, I'll say there's a lot of people I won't go after. Like, for example, the random white man who wears a shirt that says, don't tread on me. I'll have time for you. I've got nothing for you. Who I'm explicitly coming after in case anybody wants to know is white women who talk about creating community, white women who talk about girl power, lady boss, sisterhood, motherhood, all of those anything that is tied around community and femininity and the feminine and women. I'm 100% coming for you now. Granted, can people come for me because I fuck up? Yes, you can. You all know how to find me. Yes, you do feel free will. It's okay. I can hear it. I will continuously resolve to do better. So that's fine. And conversations I've had with people recently around the same issues. I'm personally not looking for other white women to be perfect. I'm looking for an acknowledgment of the core issues that we all can get to a place where we have these foundational understandings of what does equity mean? What does intersectionality mean? If we don't even know what those words mean? If we can't even explain them, define them, then that right. There is one of the biggest issues, and there's no reason why now, in 2021, almost 2022, that you wouldn't be able to know what those words mean, primarily because of Google, also the Bazillion books and podcasts and everything. Like the amount of information that's even been put out there that hasn't been squashed in the last couple of years is really remarkable. So I'm just really looking for us to get to a place where we all have this basic foundation, so that then we can have these more robust conversations and actually work on making progress. But we can't really move forward if we still don't even understand basic concepts of equity. So when you are someone who chooses to not vaccinate, if you are a healthy person who chooses to not vaccinate, if you are a person who chooses to not wear a mask, particularly, I live here in Reno. We have a mask mandate. So there is sort of a social contract where people expect you to be masked. If you don't understand how equity plays into those, then that's one of the problems, right? It's not even about COVID. It's not even about a mask. It's not even about a vaccine. It's that as white women, we don't have this foundational understanding of equity and intersectionality that even allows us to interpret and navigate through all the fucking shit that's going to come that we're going to have to deal with covet, who knows what's next? Remember when we all thought that 2021 was going to be like this really great year and we were going to put 2020 to shame? It may not actually ever get better, like we might always be dealing with something. So how do we deal with it all better? I like the idea of things getting better. I like the idea of progress, but I want to go back to something you mentioned in terms of the spaces that white women will create, and I think often they're really self affirming. So whether it is the sense of community around your yoga space or health and wellness or the access you have. And I have been critical of that for myself as someone who's been a yoga instructor in the Tahoe area for almost 20 years now, you see who feels they have access to those, yes, the cost of classes. What does it mean to show up in a quote, unquote yoga body and what that does? And I think in a community like Tahoe, it is kind of challenging because we're not very diverse. But I think that is a self examination in community, which I've really thought about a lot over the last decade is what about our community doesn't make it inviting to other humans that might want to live. And a big barrier to that is basic economics, right. And just in terms of can you live where you work and who we support in terms of our tourist industry and who we support in terms of our second and third homeowners. And to me, that's a big critique of Tahoe. But I think it relates a lot because it invites this place of people to kind of like escaping to and this place to come and feel like you're just existing and living in the self affirming bubble. And again, it's a reason I love the community, but I'm also critical of it, as I think now going on 20 years of local. But my point with that is in those spaces you'll have intelligent humans that know how to use Google, they know how to use the Internet, but they will die hard defend other aspects of life that relate to data, and that might relate to whether this is something I found really challenging in this era of COVID and Masque wearing and vaccinations is their defense of climate change and climate justice and their defense of changing traffic patterns or fill in the blank anything that might have data to support it. And then I'm absolutely dumbfounded in how the data that supports what we need to do to reach this end of pandemic and vaccinations, and the sense of protecting not just yourself but other people and why you do that? That part is like a loss on them. And I think it comes from a bit of a place of selfishness. And I also think it comes back to that individualism that they're just kind of doing for them because they're going to be fine. And that makes me really quite pissed. And it's actually forced. Well, it's ended a couple of friendships, gone to acquaintances, but it's also the community for the first time, the wildfires did it to me a little bit, just more out of fear. And I was like, okay, but remember, you had, like, a safe place to evacuate to, and your home was still there and fill in the blank. But just in a sense of living in a community that wouldn't protect some of its most vulnerable people. Yeah. I remember when I moved to Tahoe. I moved to Tahoe in 2001, and I moved there simply to chase powder days. That was the point. It was to be there in the winter to get as many powder days as I could as I spent more time there, like I got into Whitewater rafting. I moved out of that. I got in way more into mountain biking. It was really about powder days. I would say by about year 13 1415, I found it to be a bit untenable to be in Tahoe. And you and I have discussed this, and you and Brennan, definitely. You travel a lot. You have a really great community of people there. People are smart and doing things. But I personally found it really difficult. And when I was put in a position of you're going to have to pay exorbitant rent to live in this place or you could move to Reno. It actually became a really easy decision for me where I was like, Well, cost of living is more affordable, and I get to be in a more diverse community. And Reno is really diverse, both in terms. Well, not necessarily racially. I mean, there are definitely, like, the population of black folks here is really small, but there's certainly different than Tahoe, but there's a lot of perspectives here, and there's a whole unsheltered population here. There's a wide range of demographics. It's just a really different place. And I really have found it to be more nourishing to me to be in a place where I will walk into a room and it's not white. It's not like, never am I going into anything, even in yoga. I will go into yoga, and it's not white. That is kind of more where I'm at with things. And while certainly I miss mountain biking out the front door and being, but you're also not ten minutes away from skiing anymore, either with the traffic, unless you're on West Shore and going to home with. But if you're trying to go anywhere else, I think from where I'm at and Reno going to Mount Rose is probably like people from Truckee down to Alpine, kind of, if not less, because I've definitely been in the car for, like, 5 hours with Lauren and Kyle. But I don't know, there is really I just think it can be really challenging to be in a place where it is so white and it is so privileged. And there's a lot of comfort in that in terms of like, it's beautiful and like, you know, and you have all these amenities. But it's also just like, what it caters to, I think, is really, yeah, it caters to basically people saying, I can do whatever it is that I want to do. And it's not that it only happens in Tahoe, certainly. But no, we've talked about this before with mountain towns, real estate in the ski industry, and just this unfortunate gentrification that happens of we have people in the service industry, tourist industry. And kind of to your point, those humans need to be protected. They're going back to kind of our kind of focus point. Usually you're the one helping to redirect. But I'm thinking about the vaccinations second and third shot boosters. Like, for me, I didn't feel well after my two vaccinations or my booster, but I had paid time off to basically lie around and nurse my vaccination ickiness, right. And other humans not the same. They're not afforded that same luxury. And yet those are the humans that literally help keep our industry and our communities afloat. It kind of goes back to like, well, you could choose to move to Tahoe, like you and I did much younger where I was like, peanut butter and jelly and oatmeal and all like, it was like, whatever gas I needed to get this, that's a choice. That's total privilege. It totally comes. We spoke about this earlier in the season when I had a chance to have Ingrid on, and she talked about that sense of privilege of having the safety net, right. And the significance of how that changes a bit of the decisions that you might make and some of your behaviors as opposed to it always really coming down to a basic survival and the meeting of the basic needs. And I think what I find in Tahoe that can be really challenging. That's definitely changed over the last two decades is that shift of people thinking that because they're in this beautiful place and because they do some individual practices that are positive. And I'm not discounting that. Like, you bring your coffee cup, you put a solar panel on your house. That hoop house is awesome. Like, you got some lettuce and potatoes up. Those are all there's nothing wrong with doing those things. But to me that I feel like does not answer the call to climate justice, systemic issues, right. And showing up whether it's in stopping and thwarting development or speaking out against access to basic housing in Tahoe, there was this great sign a little market on the West Shore this summer where they were like, We'd love to be open. If you could please provide housing for our employees that they could afford, we would be open. And there were like, several days where this just little market could not open because there was no staffing because nobody could afford to live anywhere near it to keep a basic convenience open. And it becomes this food desert. But it doesn't matter because people just truck up their groceries and get things shipped. It's just such a weird sorry off on a tangent from the vaccine, but I think it speaks back to that intersection of what we need to look at when we look at feminist values and we look at what our role is as white women to not just take, which I deal with sometimes, and I'm assertively doing it. And again, some of my friends are dropped. It's fine. I don't want them as friends anymore, but I don't want it to be like, I don't want to worry about the fragility of fucking other white women or, honestly, white males. I'm like, there's zero energy, zero waste of my time for your experience. And it's not to not see you value as a human, but this systemic, the way the system has been set up to give you access to all that you need is enough for me to be like, no, I am not giving you of my time and energy and not an ounce or thread of, like feeling well, basically, what you and I have been saying this whole time is that we're willing to end relationships over these issues. That's how committed we are to this that I think is something to speak a little bit, too, because it's the holidays right now. Everyone's like, what do you say at the dinner table? What do you say around family? You keep seeing all this, right? But relationships change. You move on. People break up. When you think about intimate partners, you would certainly break up over a misalignment in values. Absolutely. That would end an intimate relationship, a misalignment and values. So why do we think that we're not afforded that same option of ending a relationship because of a misalignment of values? And how have we gotten to a point where we are supposed to understand all, well, okay, I understand. I understand all the sides, but accept all sides and just be and just show up for everyone? No hard fucking no. If we don't, number one share the same values and number two work diligently to practice them in the same way. We will not have a relationship. We will not have a relationship personally, we will not have a relationship professionally. I got a list of people last month where I'm like, Well, that is okay, we're not doing, but I think we white women need to be more comfortable with ending relationships with people who are not able to hold these values of equity and intersectionality. And if we're not able to sort of rise to the occasion to speak to these things and to really advocate for them, then we would need to reevaluate the way that we perceive ourselves as feminists or as women who are there for other women. Once again, part of this issue is that there are these women who say that they show up for other women, that they're there for the sisterhood, they're there for the community. I'm 100% going to call bullshit on you. Total bullshit because you're like, Well, what are you actually there for? And then to hear from some of them? Well, I'm just here to have fun, have a be social. That's not why you show up in a community space that's directed for and by women because it's created intentionally to make more room and more space for women. Then there might be other reasons to have maybe those social endeavors, right. But I think that sense in those spaces that need to be created. And we've looked at this sometimes with our Talibachi women's group, and we're having this podcast coming out later. But sometimes we have events. We'll get critique around like, oh, thanks a lot for closing the door on us, maybe from mail skiers, and we're like, yeah, there's a sense of it's not excluding you. It's making space for. And I think sometimes that disconnect and kind of going back to what you said, having the option of ending a relationship if a misalignment and values, sometimes they almost even see it as like a protection which we are all afforded to not have one, like, negative and toxic interactions with humans that question the work and the unlearning we're trying to do. And I think you and I have said this before several times, like, we're not experts in all fields, and we're not perfect. But it's like we come together because part of the reason is if you don't have humans in your life that you can have these exchanges with because there might be people right now Googling equity intersectionality and maybe finding it for the first time. This is work I think I've seen for a decade. You yourself have for probably a decade. Plus, these are conversations I have intimately with my partner. I try to understand how they apply and in my actions in life where I hit the hard, no is if you hear them and you're like, I don't have to worry about that. That's where that disconnection and values happened. I think the space for the unlearning and the learning is what is really valuable. And that's where you say when friendships grow, they fucking change and they evolve. And instead of us in our 20s chasing powder, we're like, in our 40s chasing fucking equity, and we're chasing that sense. So again, the mountains still provide us with energy, and they provide us with this outlet. And everyone should have access to them. But if you start to think about you've had that choice and you've had that privilege to do it, why isn't everyone deserving of that? And then you think back to things related to access and those safety nets? And, like, did you come out of College with loans? Were you encouraged to go to College? Like, what was all those roles and those values that built you up to where you are? And I think that helps us see that piece where we can protect ourselves and keep those options of ending relationships, ending friendships for not just the protective nature. But I also think it sends, like, a fucking beautiful message. And I think it kind of sits a little uncomfortably at first, but I'm like, I think of some of my friendships now in my life where I'm like, I love that I have mentors and friends and, like, people that I love in my life that I learned from that are fucking doing shit that pisses people off, but not for the reasons that piss people off just for the sake of pissing people off. Yeah, well, I would say definitely one of those people who really pisses people off. Sometimes I do inspire people. You motivate people. And I think those of you that are pissed off by you, they're not listening. We should send this podcast to all of them. Oh, this would be like, hate mail that you get from the Moonshine Inc. Article. Just send them this, send it. But then you could retitle it like, Antivaxxers Unite. Yeah. Thanks so much for your feedback. I really have come to understand how you feel. And I even recorded a podcast about it. Here you go. Just for you. How do you think that'll lead? Get vaccinated, get vaccinated, get your booster. Like who and people get vaccinated, get your booster, wear your mask. Don't make excuses. Don't make it about you. It's about don't be an asshole. Yeah, I mean, I'm an asshole, but don't be an asshole. You know what I'm saying? That's it. That's where we're going to end 2021 is get vaccinated, get a booster, wear a mask. Don't be an asshole. Really? Think about what the words we and us and community mean? Google white feminism, Google white feminism and go get fucked if you're pissed off by what we're saying right now? Happy New Year.