WEBVTT Kind: captions Language: en-GB 00:00:08.216 --> 00:00:09.551 I'm Travis Bader 00:00:09.551 --> 00:00:12.387 and this is the Silvercore podcast. 00:00:13.847 --> 00:00:15.515 Silvercore has been providing 00:00:15.515 --> 00:00:20.270 its members with the skills and knowledge necessary to be confident and proficient 00:00:20.270 --> 00:00:23.732 in the outdoors for over 20 years, and we make it easier 00:00:23.732 --> 00:00:26.693 for people to deepen their connection to the natural world. 00:00:27.610 --> 00:00:31.156 If you enjoy the positive and educational content we provide, 00:00:31.614 --> 00:00:36.036 please let others know by sharing, commenting and following 00:00:36.369 --> 00:00:39.581 so that you can join in on everything that Silvercore stands for. 00:00:40.582 --> 00:00:43.668 If you'd like to learn more about becoming a member of the Silvercore 00:00:43.710 --> 00:00:56.222 Club and Community, visit our website at Silvercore.ca 00:00:56.473 --> 00:01:00.643 I'm joined today by a UBC grad in economics, business or sustainability. 00:01:00.977 --> 00:01:02.979 Did his undergrad thesis. 00:01:02.979 --> 00:01:05.065 Hunt Recruitment and retention. 00:01:05.065 --> 00:01:09.652 His master's thesis on preferences and willingness to pay for wildlife management 00:01:09.944 --> 00:01:13.031 and is currently the executive director of the British Columbia 00:01:13.031 --> 00:01:14.616 Wildlife Federation. 00:01:14.616 --> 00:01:16.701 Welcome to the Silvercore podcast. 00:01:16.701 --> 00:01:19.245 Jesse Zeman Thanks, Travis. 00:01:19.245 --> 00:01:22.373 You know, even though this is about B.C. 00:01:22.373 --> 00:01:25.502 and you've got a big role within the British Columbia Wildlife Federation, 00:01:25.960 --> 00:01:29.923 your areas of study and your expertise was something that I think would be useful 00:01:29.923 --> 00:01:33.218 for people all throughout North America and beyond. 00:01:34.052 --> 00:01:36.846 And you've got very keen 00:01:36.846 --> 00:01:39.224 insight into what it is we're going to be talking about today 00:01:40.058 --> 00:01:44.687 and a lot of respect from people who have been working with you and around you 00:01:44.687 --> 00:01:47.899 and even those who just kind of follow you casually on forums. 00:01:47.941 --> 00:01:51.903 And I was funny because in doing a little bit of research for this podcast, 00:01:51.903 --> 00:01:58.034 I came across a quote here and it says, I admire Jesse and his efforts. 00:01:58.409 --> 00:02:01.538 He is horribly intelligent and is extremely dedicated 00:02:01.538 --> 00:02:03.498 to our wildlife concerns. 00:02:03.498 --> 00:02:06.668 And I thought, who better to have 00:02:06.668 --> 00:02:09.337 on the Silvercore podcast to share his thoughts 00:02:09.671 --> 00:02:14.634 on wildlife management, on Hunter retention and Hunter recruitment than you. 00:02:14.676 --> 00:02:16.845 So again, thank you for joining me here. 00:02:16.928 --> 00:02:17.637 Yeah, thanks. 00:02:17.637 --> 00:02:20.807 Those are very kind words for someone who must not know me that well. 00:02:22.642 --> 00:02:26.437 So you've been involved with the Wildlife Federation and for a long time. 00:02:26.437 --> 00:02:30.400 I think in your... you're an airline pilot 00:02:30.900 --> 00:02:34.112 by by trade on top of everything else here. 00:02:34.445 --> 00:02:37.115 And you decided to jump in and work 00:02:37.115 --> 00:02:40.243 at the Federation, which probably 00:02:40.243 --> 00:02:43.288 in some respects people would look at and say, well, I bet you 00:02:43.288 --> 00:02:45.123 it doesn't pay as much as being an airline pilot. 00:02:45.123 --> 00:02:46.624 Why would this guy do this? 00:02:46.624 --> 00:02:47.208 Why would. 00:02:47.208 --> 00:02:49.043 What what is it that drives you? 00:02:49.043 --> 00:02:51.838 Yeah, that's yeah, that's certainly the case. 00:02:52.297 --> 00:02:55.425 You definitely work a lot more and get paid a lot less. 00:02:55.717 --> 00:02:57.760 That is true. 00:02:57.886 --> 00:03:00.263 My. My time at the B.C. Wildlife Federation. 00:03:00.263 --> 00:03:02.098 I've been involved since I was a kid. 00:03:02.098 --> 00:03:05.226 Probably since as far back as I can remember. 00:03:05.226 --> 00:03:07.478 Involved in the Oceola Club, which is in Lake Country, 00:03:07.478 --> 00:03:08.938 kind of in the interior of British Columbia. 00:03:08.938 --> 00:03:13.610 And and started under a fellow named Ron Taylor, 00:03:13.610 --> 00:03:17.655 who is one of the original members of the Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation. 00:03:18.698 --> 00:03:20.825 You know, big name in the conservation movement. 00:03:20.825 --> 00:03:24.037 So he kind of got me started as a kid, you know, into hunting and fishing, 00:03:24.037 --> 00:03:27.248 fishing as young as I was, you know, two or three years old 00:03:27.957 --> 00:03:31.961 and kind of just took that on and got started into some stewardship projects. 00:03:31.961 --> 00:03:34.839 So I've kind of been a lifelong BCWF member. 00:03:35.715 --> 00:03:40.470 And and the passion for it really just comes in seeing the change 00:03:40.470 --> 00:03:43.598 and realizing the change in fish and wildlife populations and 00:03:44.432 --> 00:03:48.269 all of the effects that we now realize, you know, where we're down. 00:03:48.269 --> 00:03:52.357 And in Ladner right beside the Fraser River here or close to there 00:03:52.357 --> 00:03:56.986 and you talk to some of the folks that are older than our generation 00:03:56.986 --> 00:04:00.573 and they used to have sockeye returns every year there 00:04:00.615 --> 00:04:01.658 where they could go fishing. 00:04:01.658 --> 00:04:02.283 And then it went 00:04:02.283 --> 00:04:05.536 to, you know, once every other year and then it went to once every four years. 00:04:05.536 --> 00:04:09.707 And now, you know, the likelihood is we probably won't see another sockeye 00:04:09.707 --> 00:04:11.751 fishery for the foreseeable future in the river. 00:04:11.751 --> 00:04:15.546 Or if we do, it's going to be, you know, very marginal once every four years. 00:04:15.546 --> 00:04:18.341 So that's kind of the passion is recognizing that, 00:04:18.716 --> 00:04:21.219 you know, what I've experienced and what the people before me experience. 00:04:21.219 --> 00:04:22.929 My kids are probably not going to get 00:04:22.929 --> 00:04:26.766 that opportunity unless people who really care about these resources 00:04:26.766 --> 00:04:30.061 put their hands up and say, we're not okay with what's going on. 00:04:30.103 --> 00:04:31.062 We want to see change. 00:04:31.062 --> 00:04:33.606 We want to see sustainable fish and wildlife populations. 00:04:33.606 --> 00:04:35.566 So that's the motivation. 00:04:35.566 --> 00:04:38.653 So that sounds like a pretty uphill battle personally. 00:04:38.653 --> 00:04:39.529 I mean, it sounds like you're 00:04:39.529 --> 00:04:42.573 you'd be banging your head against a brick wall at times because 00:04:42.573 --> 00:04:46.202 best laid plans, you can put together a full 00:04:46.452 --> 00:04:48.913 thesis and paper and stats and everything on it, but 00:04:49.330 --> 00:04:51.249 you're going to have layers of bureaucracy 00:04:51.249 --> 00:04:53.501 and you're going to have different political climates. 00:04:53.501 --> 00:04:56.254 So they're going to affect how those decisions are being made. 00:04:57.588 --> 00:05:00.758 How do you deal with that? 00:05:00.758 --> 00:05:01.759 Yeah, Yeah. 00:05:01.759 --> 00:05:03.761 A lot of sleepless nights for sure. 00:05:03.761 --> 00:05:08.766 I mean, the the very interesting thing, if we cut right to the core in British 00:05:08.766 --> 00:05:12.603 Columbia, you know, politics, there are politicians 00:05:12.603 --> 00:05:16.149 who are intrinsically motivated who really get into it for the right reasons. 00:05:16.524 --> 00:05:19.360 There are a lot of personalities, but the reality of it in B.C. 00:05:19.360 --> 00:05:22.447 is that quite often the provincial election is won 00:05:22.447 --> 00:05:25.867 and lost by 60 to 80000 votes across the province. 00:05:26.367 --> 00:05:27.994 Sometimes far less than that. 00:05:27.994 --> 00:05:31.247 And there's a number of areas where things are always close, right? 00:05:31.247 --> 00:05:34.625 And so when we look at how many people hunt, 00:05:35.209 --> 00:05:38.296 you know, 110,000 plus people that buy a license every year 00:05:38.588 --> 00:05:41.799 between fresh water and saltwater licenses, you're talking 00:05:42.633 --> 00:05:44.886 over 500,000 licenses that are sold. 00:05:45.428 --> 00:05:50.099 If you can get those people to stand up and advocate for Fish and Wildlife 00:05:50.558 --> 00:05:54.103 and let elected officials know that what they're doing is an okay 00:05:54.103 --> 00:05:57.148 and they want to see change, you will get changes in 00:05:57.148 --> 00:06:00.610 how fish wildlife is managed and how conservation is applied. 00:06:00.818 --> 00:06:04.572 So so that's kind of like the ultimate goal is to get people 00:06:05.490 --> 00:06:08.201 to herd the cats in a way where they're vocal 00:06:08.201 --> 00:06:11.287 about what's important to them, where they engage with their MLAs. 00:06:11.287 --> 00:06:12.580 And I think you'll see change 00:06:13.623 --> 00:06:14.916 that strategically. 00:06:14.916 --> 00:06:18.044 You can definitely hunters and anglers could 100% control 00:06:18.044 --> 00:06:21.881 the outcome of the provincial election if they were all on the same page and not 00:06:22.090 --> 00:06:25.051 That would not be a hard, hard feat in that sense. 00:06:25.843 --> 00:06:29.680 And like any any group of people, there's always going to be classes 00:06:29.680 --> 00:06:30.556 within that group 00:06:30.556 --> 00:06:33.518 that they look at, trying to make distinctions between each other. 00:06:33.810 --> 00:06:36.020 They'll say, Well, I'm a sport shooter. 00:06:36.020 --> 00:06:37.021 I'm not a hunter. 00:06:37.021 --> 00:06:38.856 I'm a I'm a rifle shooter. 00:06:38.856 --> 00:06:40.441 I'm not a pistol shooter. 00:06:40.441 --> 00:06:42.985 And there's a level of divisiveness in there. 00:06:42.985 --> 00:06:46.697 I would think that it would be extremely difficult 00:06:47.365 --> 00:06:49.742 to get people to self advocate. 00:06:49.742 --> 00:06:54.372 And I think you're probably fighting a 00:06:55.498 --> 00:06:59.585 a traditional sense of co-opting responsibility for advocating 00:06:59.836 --> 00:07:04.006 to a third party, because in days of old people would say, well, 00:07:04.966 --> 00:07:06.008 I belong to the Wildlife 00:07:06.008 --> 00:07:09.971 Federation or I belong to whatever it might be, I pay my money. 00:07:09.971 --> 00:07:11.848 What are they doing for me? 00:07:11.848 --> 00:07:15.518 And what we're really seeing as we move forward 00:07:15.518 --> 00:07:18.438 is the empowerment of the individual. 00:07:18.646 --> 00:07:21.399 Like the Internet has really empowered the individual. 00:07:22.108 --> 00:07:25.278 A.I and that's an interesting thing I'm kind of looking at as well 00:07:25.278 --> 00:07:26.821 because I got an expert in A.I. 00:07:26.821 --> 00:07:28.698 they just did a podcast with and another one 00:07:28.698 --> 00:07:32.535 who's a futurist who I'm talking with, talking about how A.I. 00:07:32.535 --> 00:07:37.915 is changing the whole paradigm of people and commoditizing essentially knowledge 00:07:38.416 --> 00:07:42.462 and how moving forward, the trend is going to be went 00:07:42.462 --> 00:07:47.383 from physicality to intelligence to now uniqueness. 00:07:47.800 --> 00:07:48.885 The individuals. 00:07:48.885 --> 00:07:52.889 So I think you're going to see a growing push 00:07:52.889 --> 00:07:56.893 that's going to be assisting in people, recognizing and realizing that 00:07:56.893 --> 00:08:01.606 their own unique voice has a heck of a lot more power than it ever has in the past. 00:08:02.231 --> 00:08:04.525 But how are you looking at this? 00:08:04.525 --> 00:08:07.445 How is it something that the Federation is kind of looking at 00:08:07.737 --> 00:08:10.448 mobilizing the individuals to advocate? 00:08:10.781 --> 00:08:11.240 Yeah. 00:08:11.240 --> 00:08:15.203 So yeah, that that is always so when we talk strictly, you know, 00:08:15.203 --> 00:08:18.372 advocacy is one part of our of our business. 00:08:18.372 --> 00:08:19.373 We've got a whole bunch of different parts 00:08:19.373 --> 00:08:23.377 But in terms of mobilizing people, in a lot of cases, it's education. 00:08:24.045 --> 00:08:28.925 There's also we we get this like feeling of hopelessness from a lot of people 00:08:28.925 --> 00:08:32.053 where it's like, well, I'm exactly you're saying I'm just one person. 00:08:32.345 --> 00:08:33.846 My MLA is never going to listen to me. 00:08:33.846 --> 00:08:36.057 It's a waste of my time to go see them. 00:08:36.057 --> 00:08:38.684 And that's part of the, you know, the hurdle 00:08:38.684 --> 00:08:42.313 that we got to get over is people recognizing that their time is valuable, 00:08:42.563 --> 00:08:47.318 that their MLAs in person appreciate them coming in 00:08:47.652 --> 00:08:51.322 and having an exchange of knowledge or lobbying or advocacy or whatever. 00:08:51.322 --> 00:08:56.369 And so Bill C 21 is a prime example where people are finally getting mobilized 00:08:56.702 --> 00:08:59.205 and, you know, we kind of talked about this off air. 00:09:00.164 --> 00:09:03.668 I think what you alluded to is that, you know, there's these factions 00:09:03.668 --> 00:09:06.712 and so you have like the sports shooting community who maybe not doesn't hunt 00:09:06.921 --> 00:09:10.633 you have hunters who obviously shoot that's part of their business. 00:09:10.633 --> 00:09:14.345 And and I think, you know, in the past you had people saying, well, I don't hunt, 00:09:14.345 --> 00:09:16.097 so why should I care? I don't support shoots. 00:09:16.097 --> 00:09:16.806 So why should I care? 00:09:16.806 --> 00:09:21.352 Well, you should care because you have overlapping interests 00:09:21.686 --> 00:09:25.940 in the sense that, you know, hunters need sports shooters and sports shooters 00:09:25.940 --> 00:09:30.027 need hunters in the sense that there are a ton of sports shooters that adds numbers 00:09:30.361 --> 00:09:34.865 to people who care about firearms or using firearms. 00:09:35.199 --> 00:09:39.036 On the flip side, sports shooting social license is very 00:09:39.036 --> 00:09:41.372 clearly tied to people hunting, right? 00:09:41.372 --> 00:09:44.375 So the public doesn't necessarily support people who just shoot. 00:09:44.375 --> 00:09:45.918 And that's not their fault. 00:09:45.918 --> 00:09:48.588 That's really more spillover from what goes on in the States. 00:09:48.963 --> 00:09:52.800 But the reality is, is everybody is on the same team and going, 00:09:53.342 --> 00:09:54.635 I care about what you do. 00:09:54.635 --> 00:09:55.636 You care about what I do. 00:09:55.636 --> 00:09:57.847 Let's jointly work together to advocate. 00:09:58.139 --> 00:10:01.350 You are going to be much more powerful than if you say, Well, I don't hunt 00:10:01.767 --> 00:10:04.395 and I don't care about sports shooting, so I'm just going to go my own way. 00:10:04.395 --> 00:10:06.981 And so I think that's part of this broader realization. 00:10:07.273 --> 00:10:09.233 And it's the same in the world of Fish and Wildlife, right? 00:10:09.233 --> 00:10:14.739 We now have this Fish Wildlife and Habitat Coalition, which is 29 groups, 00:10:14.739 --> 00:10:20.328 I think makes up, you know, there's over 900 sustainable businesses, 275,000 00:10:20.328 --> 00:10:23.331 plus people who have, you know, five years ago 00:10:23.331 --> 00:10:27.418 couldn't even stand to be in the same room together, really like it was 00:10:27.585 --> 00:10:30.671 I was at I was at a pile of those meetings where people 00:10:30.671 --> 00:10:33.716 just, like, instantly cut loose on each other. 00:10:34.091 --> 00:10:36.969 But everybody's coming upon this realization that, look, 00:10:36.969 --> 00:10:38.804 you know, I you know, 00:10:38.804 --> 00:10:41.599 if you're a non hunter, you're like, I really care about grizzly bears. 00:10:41.599 --> 00:10:42.516 Well, guess what? 00:10:42.516 --> 00:10:45.102 Grizzly bears also need salmon, right? 00:10:45.102 --> 00:10:49.148 And we all care about salmon and we all care about the sustainability 00:10:49.148 --> 00:10:51.400 of grizzly bears, the sustainability of caribou. 00:10:51.734 --> 00:10:56.656 So these little tiny things that we don't agree on, why don't we set that aside? 00:10:56.656 --> 00:10:58.824 Because there's bigger, more important issues. 00:10:58.824 --> 00:11:00.159 You know, there's bigger fish to fry 00:11:00.159 --> 00:11:04.330 than these little tiny nuances, because if we all head off in our own direction, 00:11:04.330 --> 00:11:08.501 we know that things are going to get worse for shooting or for conservation. 00:11:08.834 --> 00:11:13.005 So that's really the message, I think, and that's part of the mental bridge 00:11:13.005 --> 00:11:13.923 that we got to get over. 00:11:13.923 --> 00:11:16.050 And so how are we focusing on that? 00:11:16.050 --> 00:11:19.095 We just recently added a conservation hunting, 00:11:19.095 --> 00:11:21.764 angling and sports shooting engagement coordinator. 00:11:22.098 --> 00:11:25.059 So that person's role really is going to be building community 00:11:25.059 --> 00:11:30.314 within our different constituencies and talking to people and educating people. 00:11:30.314 --> 00:11:31.691 That's a that's a big part of it. 00:11:31.691 --> 00:11:34.402 We're also kind of stepping up the world of education. 00:11:34.402 --> 00:11:37.738 We already do a ton of education, but we're going to be offering 00:11:37.738 --> 00:11:39.490 some more products to kind of bring in, 00:11:40.533 --> 00:11:40.825 you know, we're 00:11:40.825 --> 00:11:43.828 seeing increased female participation in things like hunting and angling. 00:11:43.828 --> 00:11:46.580 They're both becoming more family oriented activities. 00:11:46.914 --> 00:11:49.333 And so supporting that transition, 00:11:49.625 --> 00:11:52.420 again, is good for hunting and conservation 00:11:52.420 --> 00:11:54.880 and angling because there's more people that care about the resource. 00:11:55.589 --> 00:11:57.842 But under that, again, like it's it's 00:11:59.593 --> 00:12:01.595 these activities are stigmatized in the sense 00:12:01.595 --> 00:12:05.933 that typically it's been a white male, older 00:12:06.225 --> 00:12:09.562 who does these things and people find that unrelatable. 00:12:09.562 --> 00:12:12.606 But if we have all these other people who are coming in to these activities 00:12:12.940 --> 00:12:16.402 and reaching out and touching the rest of their community, 00:12:17.319 --> 00:12:19.947 hunting suddenly becomes far more palatable. 00:12:19.947 --> 00:12:20.948 And we're seeing that right? 00:12:20.948 --> 00:12:24.160 Like, I mean, I recall even 15 years ago where if you talked about hunting 00:12:24.160 --> 00:12:27.580 in British Columbia, you were instantly sent death threats. 00:12:27.580 --> 00:12:31.125 And, you know, it's in the Vancouver Sun, you know, the province is out to train, 00:12:31.125 --> 00:12:34.003 you know, ten year old killers and those sorts of things. 00:12:34.295 --> 00:12:37.089 And now that discussion has changed big time right now, 00:12:37.131 --> 00:12:40.259 like there's like the local food movement and people are moving 00:12:40.259 --> 00:12:44.221 towards hunting because they're concerned about where their meat comes from. 00:12:44.221 --> 00:12:46.640 They want to source it ethically. So. 00:12:46.640 --> 00:12:49.769 So I guess what I'm saying is, you know, we can all be a bow 00:12:49.769 --> 00:12:53.105 hunter or a rifle hunter or a sports shooter, a fly fisher. 00:12:53.105 --> 00:12:57.276 But we should all be on the same page in terms of taking care of this resource, 00:12:57.276 --> 00:12:58.360 in terms of making sure 00:12:58.360 --> 00:13:02.114 that everybody has access to it so they can go out hunting and fishing. 00:13:02.114 --> 00:13:05.785 And if we can get raise it up that level, we're going to be a lot better off. 00:13:06.118 --> 00:13:08.162 Yeah, if you can create a hierarchical approach, 00:13:08.162 --> 00:13:12.583 I mean, not that the concerns of these different groups are invalid, 00:13:12.583 --> 00:13:16.003 but perhaps there's something that can be approached 00:13:16.003 --> 00:13:19.507 a little bit later on down the line after some of the big blocks are set in place. 00:13:19.507 --> 00:13:21.550 And that gives you a strong foundation. 00:13:21.550 --> 00:13:22.301 Yeah. Yeah. 00:13:22.301 --> 00:13:24.261 I think I mean there's we do we have 00:13:24.261 --> 00:13:27.473 we have clubs that have had internal struggles between, 00:13:27.473 --> 00:13:32.019 you know, the IPSC and the Trap shooters and all the rest of that stuff. 00:13:32.019 --> 00:13:35.815 And you know, that the reality is, is like if we can't 00:13:35.940 --> 00:13:40.236 people can't use handguns, IPSC going to go the way of the dodo, right? 00:13:40.236 --> 00:13:44.365 And if we so so you know, you got to set those things aside. 00:13:44.657 --> 00:13:45.825 You got to make sure that you're 00:13:45.825 --> 00:13:49.995 not trying to marginalize each other and you got to go, okay, if we all work 00:13:49.995 --> 00:13:52.957 together, we're going to get to a better place in time. 00:13:53.290 --> 00:13:55.835 Then if we all fight amongst ourselves, Right? 00:13:55.835 --> 00:13:58.045 That's that that's one of the big challenges. 00:13:58.087 --> 00:14:01.173 You know, I had someone on the podcast before, very intelligent person, 00:14:01.173 --> 00:14:04.343 and she was saying talking about ego in hunting. 00:14:04.343 --> 00:14:04.635 Yeah. 00:14:05.594 --> 00:14:07.096 I'm like, I don't know what you're talking about. 00:14:07.096 --> 00:14:07.388 Right? 00:14:07.388 --> 00:14:09.014 And you know, she's going in. 00:14:09.014 --> 00:14:11.267 She's like, I get you know, some people have ego, 00:14:11.267 --> 00:14:14.812 but it made me pause and look at and really analyze 00:14:15.104 --> 00:14:18.732 the the thought of the ego in in what's involved. 00:14:18.732 --> 00:14:21.151 And you find it everywhere. 00:14:21.151 --> 00:14:23.445 But I think she was correct. 00:14:23.445 --> 00:14:25.072 That's Jenny Lee. 00:14:25.072 --> 00:14:26.448 Jenny Li, am I pronouncing it right? 00:14:26.448 --> 00:14:26.740 You're right. 00:14:26.740 --> 00:14:30.286 She said it both ways to me. Yeah, yeah, 00:14:30.286 --> 00:14:35.332 that I think she is very correct in so far as you know, 00:14:35.457 --> 00:14:38.168 money and power seem to be the two things that 00:14:39.295 --> 00:14:42.256 can create the most strife for people, whether that's real 00:14:42.256 --> 00:14:45.551 money or real power or perceived money or perceived power. 00:14:46.010 --> 00:14:51.891 I'm I'm the captain of my gun club or I'm the head ring safety officer. 00:14:51.891 --> 00:14:53.058 Okay, fair enough. Right. 00:14:53.058 --> 00:14:58.731 That's a different elevation of position or whatever it might be. 00:14:58.731 --> 00:15:02.735 And it seems to me that that is that she hit the nail on the head, 00:15:02.735 --> 00:15:05.529 that that is the barrier to having people kind of work together. 00:15:05.863 --> 00:15:06.906 If people can kind of 00:15:07.865 --> 00:15:08.866 take a step back 00:15:08.866 --> 00:15:11.577 and put the ego aside and really, 00:15:11.952 --> 00:15:16.457 truly look at what it is that's going to benefit the group the most 00:15:17.082 --> 00:15:21.128 and maybe swallow that difficult pill, work together with your 00:15:21.795 --> 00:15:25.090 the person who you've been feuding with because of whatever it might be 00:15:25.090 --> 00:15:28.385 for the last little, so that you can both see 00:15:28.385 --> 00:15:30.679 the realization of a shared goal. 00:15:32.264 --> 00:15:33.974 Yeah, that's but that's a 00:15:33.974 --> 00:15:35.976 that's a huge thing unto itself because, 00:15:37.853 --> 00:15:40.272 you know, egos tied into basically everything. 00:15:40.272 --> 00:15:42.316 And you know, in the firearms world, they see it a lot too. 00:15:42.650 --> 00:15:44.652 I got a gun. I'm pretty special, right? 00:15:44.652 --> 00:15:45.402 I mean, in the States, 00:15:45.402 --> 00:15:49.239 everyone and their Grandma has a gun and it's a completely different personality. 00:15:49.239 --> 00:15:51.533 I work with firearms instructors. Well, I'm an instructor. 00:15:51.533 --> 00:15:54.286 I got to be extra special because I teach it now. Right. And 00:15:55.496 --> 00:15:57.456 learning that 00:15:57.456 --> 00:16:00.501 coming to the realization that we're all in this game together. 00:16:00.501 --> 00:16:03.045 And I think Shane Mahoney actually said it really well before 00:16:03.337 --> 00:16:05.798 when he's talking about the animals and how we manage them. 00:16:05.798 --> 00:16:09.802 And he says, you know, it's not that I'm better than the animals, it's 00:16:09.802 --> 00:16:11.512 not that I have dominion over the animals. 00:16:11.512 --> 00:16:13.722 I mean, the animals will all have things that they can do 00:16:13.722 --> 00:16:16.058 better than me, the bear is stronger than me, right? 00:16:16.058 --> 00:16:18.185 The the cougar is going to be faster than me. 00:16:18.185 --> 00:16:19.770 The deer has got better ears than me, right? 00:16:19.770 --> 00:16:20.938 There's all these different things. 00:16:20.938 --> 00:16:24.900 But the question is, is that we are actually one of the animals 00:16:24.900 --> 00:16:29.279 and we have to find a way to work together in a holistic way. 00:16:29.655 --> 00:16:31.407 Yeah, Yeah, I think that's accurate. 00:16:31.407 --> 00:16:34.451 I mean, Shane does spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff 00:16:34.451 --> 00:16:35.577 and it is accurate. 00:16:35.577 --> 00:16:39.415 And I think it we're seeing it our it's already happening like this, 00:16:39.415 --> 00:16:45.629 this kind of shift in in why and when and who picks up hunting 00:16:45.629 --> 00:16:49.508 and who picks up angling has changed right This was you know 00:16:49.883 --> 00:16:55.347 40 years ago hunting was essentially a male dominated Caucasian activity. 00:16:55.347 --> 00:16:57.641 And now there's more and more people that are getting into it. 00:16:57.641 --> 00:16:58.809 And I think that's great, right? 00:16:58.809 --> 00:17:02.730 Like you will find some people with in a much older demographic 00:17:03.063 --> 00:17:04.148 who, you know, oh, 00:17:04.148 --> 00:17:08.444 in my day, you know, men and boys went out hunting a blah blah blah 00:17:08.444 --> 00:17:10.487 And it's like, that's great in your day. 00:17:10.487 --> 00:17:12.823 But in our day, everybody goes out hunting. 00:17:12.823 --> 00:17:16.076 And so these people, I guess, you know, ego is part of it. 00:17:16.076 --> 00:17:20.205 It's it's how they relate to hunting and how they were brought up. 00:17:20.205 --> 00:17:21.040 Seeing, hunting. 00:17:21.040 --> 00:17:23.375 And the view about hunting now is different. 00:17:23.375 --> 00:17:26.170 And I think it's a good thing. I mean, I think there's 00:17:27.254 --> 00:17:27.546 you know, 00:17:27.546 --> 00:17:31.884 there's a ton of value in getting people hooked into these activities. 00:17:31.884 --> 00:17:34.261 And I think that's the broader part, too, is hunters. 00:17:34.261 --> 00:17:37.598 As hunters, we often find ourselves in competition with other hunters, right? 00:17:37.973 --> 00:17:41.060 So if you're out somewhere and it's busy and you're running into people, 00:17:41.351 --> 00:17:43.645 quite often hunters get really bent out of shape. 00:17:43.645 --> 00:17:44.980 There's people everywhere. 00:17:44.980 --> 00:17:46.106 I'm tripping over them. 00:17:46.106 --> 00:17:47.775 I can't believe this blah blah blah 00:17:47.775 --> 00:17:51.111 And it's like, well, like, you know, hunters in British Columbia 00:17:51.111 --> 00:17:53.947 probably make up 3% of the whole population. 00:17:54.323 --> 00:17:55.741 There is a whole bunch of people 00:17:55.741 --> 00:17:58.202 that probably support hunting or forms of hunting, 00:17:58.202 --> 00:18:00.579 but there's also a bunch of people that are opposed to hunting. 00:18:00.662 --> 00:18:01.497 Mm hmm. Right. 00:18:01.497 --> 00:18:04.500 So I would rather go out in the bush and run into someone who's out 00:18:04.500 --> 00:18:08.462 enjoying the same activity that supports conservation and go, Hey, 00:18:08.754 --> 00:18:10.214 I'm going to go up this drainage. 00:18:10.214 --> 00:18:13.634 You go up that drainage, have a great day, or let's work together on this, 00:18:13.967 --> 00:18:17.262 rather than running into someone who hates what I'm doing and hates me for it. 00:18:17.638 --> 00:18:18.555 Right. I love that. 00:18:18.555 --> 00:18:22.351 So it's like a totally it's like I mean, all these things to me 00:18:22.351 --> 00:18:25.479 when people see, you know, have an interest in these activities, 00:18:25.479 --> 00:18:28.482 it's like I want to bring you into this for a number of reasons. 00:18:28.482 --> 00:18:30.609 And same, you know, as it relates to BCWF is, 00:18:30.943 --> 00:18:33.487 we want to train up and I'm sure it's the same for you. 00:18:33.695 --> 00:18:37.074 We want to train up people who are confident and understand 00:18:37.074 --> 00:18:40.911 how to say if we hold a firearm, handle a firearm, harvest an animal, like 00:18:40.953 --> 00:18:43.205 we want these people to have the best experience possible, 00:18:43.205 --> 00:18:44.289 because the worst thing you can do 00:18:44.289 --> 00:18:46.875 is get somebody who goes, I want to get into hunting. 00:18:47.167 --> 00:18:49.962 And the first time they go out, they harvest something that's illegal. 00:18:50.170 --> 00:18:52.339 They get a fine and they quit hunting. Right? Right. 00:18:52.381 --> 00:18:55.175 So, you know, even if you're talking about firearms instructors, 00:18:55.592 --> 00:18:56.468 you know, in my mind 00:18:56.468 --> 00:18:58.595 as a firearms instructor or as a core instructor, 00:18:58.595 --> 00:19:00.848 you want to be putting through the best students 00:19:00.848 --> 00:19:04.601 that you possibly can to prepare them for hunting so that they enjoy hunting, 00:19:04.601 --> 00:19:08.397 so that they're good stewards for these activities, so that it reflects 00:19:08.397 --> 00:19:09.606 well on the public. Right. 00:19:09.606 --> 00:19:13.193 So all things that we think about all the time, 100%, 00:19:13.193 --> 00:19:16.655 you know, we've always taken the approach of: there’s material 00:19:16.655 --> 00:19:18.615 People need to know to pass a test. 00:19:18.615 --> 00:19:20.617 We can sit here and we can just teach that material, 00:19:20.617 --> 00:19:23.203 They can go, they can leave, and they go: “ok I passed my tests. Now what?” 00:19:24.288 --> 00:19:26.790 Or we can instill our passion 00:19:26.790 --> 00:19:29.835 for what it is that we do through example 00:19:30.669 --> 00:19:33.338 and try and have people adopt a 00:19:33.338 --> 00:19:38.677 a mental process or a lifestyle of safety, of ethics, of community. 00:19:38.677 --> 00:19:42.472 And we’ve worked really hard 00:19:42.472 --> 00:19:46.602 to be able to do that since 1994 when I started doing the the training. 00:19:46.602 --> 00:19:49.521 And we found that it's been it's been quite successful. 00:19:49.521 --> 00:19:53.150 And when I say look around others that are successful in the field, do it. 00:19:53.525 --> 00:19:55.402 Do it very similarly. 00:19:55.402 --> 00:19:57.863 But you brought up, oh my God, so many things. 00:19:58.155 --> 00:20:01.491 I'm I'm taking notes as we're going through here. 00:20:02.409 --> 00:20:04.578 Recruitment and retention, 00:20:04.578 --> 00:20:08.790 paying for conservation talking about memberships, Grizzly bear. 00:20:08.790 --> 00:20:10.792 I’ve read something about black bears. 00:20:10.792 --> 00:20:12.377 We might want to talk about that too 00:20:13.629 --> 00:20:14.004 what the 00:20:14.004 --> 00:20:17.799 Federation stands for, C21, Demographics. 00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:19.718 Food is a vehicle like there's a whole bunch of things 00:20:19.718 --> 00:20:22.512 and I'm trying to mentally just kind of put this into an order. 00:20:23.055 --> 00:20:25.349 Yeah, that doesn't have us jumping around too much. 00:20:25.349 --> 00:20:28.268 But I think an interesting area would be, 00:20:28.477 --> 00:20:31.688 you know, and this would probably apply to those in British Columbia. 00:20:31.855 --> 00:20:35.609 Everyone, when they're saying, hey, what's what's the federation doing for me? 00:20:35.984 --> 00:20:36.443 Yeah. 00:20:36.443 --> 00:20:39.988 Understanding what the Federation's mission 00:20:39.988 --> 00:20:42.324 statement is or what it is that the Federation stands for. 00:20:42.324 --> 00:20:46.119 Because so often I see people look at it and say, Well, I'm a duck hunter 00:20:46.286 --> 00:20:49.915 I’m into waterfowl or I'm a firearms owner or I'm an angler. 00:20:50.582 --> 00:20:54.044 From my understanding, the federation wasn't designed 00:20:54.044 --> 00:20:57.756 for any one of those groups in particular, but for the management, 00:20:58.340 --> 00:21:03.011 the long term smart management of our natural resources. 00:21:03.011 --> 00:21:05.472 But you can, yeah, steer that in the right way. 00:21:05.472 --> 00:21:08.100 Yeah, there's the, I mean you can hand out the vision 00:21:08.100 --> 00:21:09.184 statement and mission statement. 00:21:09.184 --> 00:21:13.063 but really it's about taking care of nature, essentially taking care 00:21:13.063 --> 00:21:16.149 of these resources, representing people 00:21:16.149 --> 00:21:18.902 who hunt, fish, trap, sport shoot 00:21:19.236 --> 00:21:22.990 advocate on their behalf, advocate on behalf of conservation. 00:21:22.990 --> 00:21:28.120 But the other piece, too, is to engage and instill awareness in the public. 00:21:28.787 --> 00:21:31.540 And so there's like so there's like a whole bunch of different parts 00:21:31.540 --> 00:21:32.291 to our business. 00:21:32.291 --> 00:21:36.378 I mean, we do education, right? So 00:21:37.754 --> 00:21:38.880 core is one of them. 00:21:38.880 --> 00:21:42.551 One of our programs becoming an outdoor is women, women outdoors, 00:21:42.551 --> 00:21:46.054 we do wetlands education, we have our conservation webinars. 00:21:46.430 --> 00:21:49.099 So that is all engaging 00:21:49.099 --> 00:21:52.686 not only our members, but also the public our conservation webinars 00:21:52.686 --> 00:21:55.397 As we get elected, officials we’ll get members of Parliament, 00:21:55.397 --> 00:21:57.941 which is our federal government we’ll get members the Legislative Assembly, 00:21:57.941 --> 00:22:00.819 which is the provincial government on those to learn about them 00:22:02.029 --> 00:22:04.573 a bunch of our stuff is outreach in terms of media. 00:22:05.198 --> 00:22:08.368 Last year in just by December, we are in, 00:22:08.368 --> 00:22:12.622 I think, 1400 different new just newspaper articles, never mind TV and radio. 00:22:12.956 --> 00:22:15.542 And so that reach in terms of the viewership, 00:22:15.542 --> 00:22:19.421 it would have reached something over 400 million Canadians last year. 00:22:19.421 --> 00:22:20.047 Right. 00:22:20.172 --> 00:22:23.216 So that's a huge part of what we're trying to change. 00:22:23.216 --> 00:22:26.887 Like those numbers are up big time over 2021 because a lot of it 00:22:27.596 --> 00:22:30.307 we're realizing is we have a ton of access 00:22:30.307 --> 00:22:33.393 to federal and provincial ministers and MLAs. 00:22:33.393 --> 00:22:34.895 We meet with them and advocate. 00:22:34.895 --> 00:22:37.939 But the public having our public engage in, having our members 00:22:37.939 --> 00:22:40.942 engage, in having hunters and anglers who are nonmembers engage, 00:22:40.942 --> 00:22:46.031 makes huge strides in terms of policy decision making, right? 00:22:46.615 --> 00:22:51.703 So media engaging the public advocacy, I would say, is really where we're 00:22:51.745 --> 00:22:55.165 where we're well-poised, given the size of our membership 00:22:55.415 --> 00:23:00.337 and the activities we do, but we also do a ton of on the ground stewardship right? 00:23:00.337 --> 00:23:04.091 So in terms of fish habitat, wetlands restoration, 00:23:04.841 --> 00:23:07.677 we're probably going to deliver just just right around 00:23:07.677 --> 00:23:11.848 $5 million worth of on the ground wetlands and water projects. 00:23:11.848 --> 00:23:12.933 This year 00:23:13.141 --> 00:23:13.809 we'll deliver 00:23:13.809 --> 00:23:17.270 well north of $1,000,000 in terms of terrestrial wildlife conservation. 00:23:17.270 --> 00:23:20.440 So assigned to your mule deer project, we got three 00:23:20.565 --> 00:23:23.485 large controlled burn projects on the go. 00:23:24.653 --> 00:23:26.530 We're funding, I think we've got three 00:23:26.530 --> 00:23:30.325 PhD students who are doing wildlife conservation science for us. 00:23:31.034 --> 00:23:34.246 We've got one that's doing a post-doc on interior Fraser Steelheads. 00:23:34.246 --> 00:23:37.541 So it's kind of like science on the ground, 00:23:37.541 --> 00:23:41.086 stewardship, a ton of education and a ton of advocacy. 00:23:41.920 --> 00:23:44.297 We do a bunch of work for the clubs in terms of 00:23:45.757 --> 00:23:49.261 advocacy, but also, you know, we're trying to build more of a sense of community. 00:23:49.261 --> 00:23:53.014 We have a bunch of support for ranges in terms of lead management, 00:23:53.014 --> 00:23:56.393 noise management that we use to support them to ensure that our ranges 00:23:56.393 --> 00:23:59.980 are sustainable and that they're not on the wrong side of provincial law. 00:24:00.856 --> 00:24:02.274 And then we also provide insurance. 00:24:02.274 --> 00:24:05.527 I mean, so there's a whole bunch of parts to our business. Right 00:24:05.652 --> 00:24:08.530 I guess it's difficult to be everything to everyone. 00:24:08.530 --> 00:24:08.738 Yeah. 00:24:08.738 --> 00:24:10.073 And you're never going to be that. 00:24:10.073 --> 00:24:15.120 Yeah, but at the crux of it, it's about the conservation, 00:24:15.162 --> 00:24:17.497 a wise use of our resources 00:24:17.497 --> 00:24:20.750 and I guess if we step back to that hierarchical approach, 00:24:21.543 --> 00:24:25.505 if we're able to address that, the other things should hopefully fall in line. 00:24:25.881 --> 00:24:28.550 Now, you brought up now we're talking about people 00:24:28.550 --> 00:24:31.303 self advocating, talking to their MP’s or MLAs. 00:24:32.471 --> 00:24:34.139 Bill C 21 00:24:34.139 --> 00:24:39.644 So I you know, we've had some discussions about that here on the podcast. 00:24:39.644 --> 00:24:45.692 And I had someone said, Trav, what's your MP had to say about this? 00:24:45.692 --> 00:24:47.527 I'm like, you know, I've spoken with her in the past. 00:24:47.527 --> 00:24:48.320 She's really nice. 00:24:48.320 --> 00:24:51.531 You know, we get along just fine, but I never see anything really 00:24:51.531 --> 00:24:54.159 come of things right? And thought, Well, you know what? 00:24:54.618 --> 00:24:55.744 Got to do it anyways. 00:24:55.744 --> 00:24:58.622 You got to go in there. So call her up. 00:24:58.622 --> 00:25:02.375 And I had a really long conversation, really insightful 00:25:02.375 --> 00:25:06.630 actually learning that the division within the ranks on how, 00:25:06.630 --> 00:25:09.674 how c21 is being rolled out and you know, without her 00:25:09.674 --> 00:25:13.136 putting her foot in her mouth but yet reading between the lines on things 00:25:13.845 --> 00:25:16.181 and things aren't all right on that. 00:25:16.181 --> 00:25:20.519 And in fact, my name's been put forward to be a witness in the hearings. 00:25:20.519 --> 00:25:24.147 So we'll we'll see where that goes if it happens. 00:25:24.147 --> 00:25:27.943 So better make sure I'm talking to Smart people like yourself and others 00:25:27.943 --> 00:25:32.614 to make sure I'm putting our best foot forward. 00:25:32.614 --> 00:25:36.451 But, even from in my position 00:25:36.701 --> 00:25:39.621 and being down the road so many times and talking 00:25:39.621 --> 00:25:42.791 with others within the Federation, like, Oh, you're going to get nowhere with it. 00:25:43.625 --> 00:25:45.835 But all of them went through it and did it anyways. 00:25:45.919 --> 00:25:50.048 That negative mindset of “we're messed up to begin with. 00:25:50.382 --> 00:25:52.384 You know what, if the boat's sinking? 00:25:52.717 --> 00:25:55.011 Yeah, because it's taken on water. 00:25:55.303 --> 00:25:56.429 What do you do? Yeah. 00:25:56.429 --> 00:25:59.474 You just rowed ashore faster or keep bailing. 00:25:59.474 --> 00:26:00.767 Yeah. Don't give up. Yeah. 00:26:00.767 --> 00:26:03.895 And I'm finding some, some really positive results 00:26:03.895 --> 00:26:05.438 from that mentality over the years. 00:26:05.438 --> 00:26:05.855 Yeah. 00:26:05.855 --> 00:26:08.316 Yeah, there's, yeah, there's, there's a number of things to consider. 00:26:08.316 --> 00:26:11.486 So in the world of advocacy, you know, everybody does like, 00:26:11.486 --> 00:26:15.615 fill out this online form, write a form letter that goes to an MLA 00:26:15.865 --> 00:26:16.449 Now I'm done. 00:26:16.449 --> 00:26:19.202 I mean, that is like, that is like decimal dust. 00:26:19.202 --> 00:26:22.872 That is like a speck of sand on the largest beach in the world. 00:26:22.872 --> 00:26:23.957 Right? Means nothing. 00:26:23.957 --> 00:26:26.167 The next part is like a personalized letter. 00:26:26.418 --> 00:26:30.255 You know, your elected officials assistant might read it, might tabulate 00:26:30.255 --> 00:26:34.134 how many they get the next you know, the next part is the in-person meeting. 00:26:34.134 --> 00:26:38.305 And that is worth orders of magnitude more than the other two combined 00:26:38.305 --> 00:26:42.517 right?, like, I mean, like 20,000 letters is like one visit. 00:26:42.517 --> 00:26:46.271 And so, you know, the feeling that you get after meeting with your MLA 00:26:46.271 --> 00:26:50.025 or MP is different depending on if they're in opposition or what their position is. 00:26:50.025 --> 00:26:53.737 But the reality is, is that you are able 00:26:53.737 --> 00:26:56.948 to influence these people and their decision and educate them. 00:26:56.948 --> 00:27:00.994 And so, when we talk about MLAs and MP’s There are very few that hunt or fish 00:27:00.994 --> 00:27:02.454 or that shoot, right? 00:27:02.454 --> 00:27:05.999 And so they don't know what this is all about. 00:27:05.999 --> 00:27:07.626 And when they get a briefing note 00:27:07.626 --> 00:27:11.463 from their cabinet or their caucus, it says, Well, here's 00:27:11.463 --> 00:27:14.799 the party, here's the party line, we want you to tow it right. 00:27:15.508 --> 00:27:20.472 They're not exposed to who uses firearms, how do they use them, 00:27:20.680 --> 00:27:22.140 What's the licensing scheme? 00:27:22.140 --> 00:27:24.100 How many times a day are these people checked? 00:27:24.100 --> 00:27:25.143 They don't have. 00:27:25.143 --> 00:27:27.062 That's a huge knowledge gap on their end. 00:27:27.062 --> 00:27:30.482 And so if you spend the time to educate them and build their relationship, 00:27:30.982 --> 00:27:32.275 they are going to get it. 00:27:32.275 --> 00:27:35.028 And even if they don't portray to you 00:27:35.403 --> 00:27:38.156 that they're going to take it back to Ottawa and raise a bunch of, 00:27:38.406 --> 00:27:40.992 you know, what about it, Yeah, they're going to do that, right? 00:27:40.992 --> 00:27:44.704 So when you're in government, your job is to listen, write stuff down, 00:27:44.704 --> 00:27:48.375 but you are not supposed to externalize if you're opposed to it. 00:27:48.375 --> 00:27:49.918 That goes back to caucus. 00:27:49.918 --> 00:27:54.506 And so, you know, if Travis walks in and 200 Travis’ friends walk into 00:27:55.173 --> 00:27:59.386 a member of government of the party in power and say this is offside, 00:27:59.678 --> 00:28:02.722 you may not feel like you got very far, but when they go back to their next 00:28:02.722 --> 00:28:05.892 caucus meeting, they're going to go, why do I have all these firearms 00:28:05.892 --> 00:28:09.479 owners and hunters in my constituency office raising 00:28:09.813 --> 00:28:10.647 heck over 00:28:10.647 --> 00:28:12.524 what's going on and why are they giving me 00:28:12.524 --> 00:28:14.442 a different line than what you're feeding me? 00:28:14.442 --> 00:28:15.777 Right, right, right. 00:28:15.777 --> 00:28:17.320 So they're going to start to ask questions. 00:28:17.320 --> 00:28:19.948 And the same goes the opposition, right. All here all the time. 00:28:20.198 --> 00:28:23.660 Oh, well, my my MLA is a member of the opposition, so it doesn't matter. 00:28:23.660 --> 00:28:26.162 Well, it matters for a whole bunch of reasons. 00:28:26.162 --> 00:28:29.999 One is that the opposition can make the government's life really hard. 00:28:30.542 --> 00:28:30.959 Right? 00:28:30.959 --> 00:28:34.045 And they can talk to the media and they can basically slam 00:28:34.045 --> 00:28:35.505 the government for what they're doing. 00:28:35.505 --> 00:28:38.591 The other piece that we all have to consider is it seems like in Canada, 00:28:38.633 --> 00:28:42.637 and B.C., is that we don't vote governments in, we vote governments out. 00:28:42.804 --> 00:28:44.013 Right. 00:28:44.013 --> 00:28:47.892 So so one of the one of the biggest learning moments that I had with 00:28:47.892 --> 00:28:51.271 with a minister was the minister said, you know, 00:28:52.105 --> 00:28:56.943 the reason why I always met with you is because you took the time 00:28:56.943 --> 00:28:59.446 to meet with me when I was a backbencher before I was minister. 00:29:00.363 --> 00:29:04.117 He said, Look, as a minister, I don't remember any of the meetings that I had. 00:29:04.117 --> 00:29:06.161 My schedule is completely jammed. 00:29:06.161 --> 00:29:09.956 You know, you're running from point A to point B, but the reason why 00:29:09.956 --> 00:29:12.375 I always made sure that you got a meeting with me 00:29:12.375 --> 00:29:15.462 and that I listened to you is because you spent the time at the front end 00:29:15.462 --> 00:29:20.675 when I was an opposition MLA, for starters, and that's why you got access. 00:29:20.675 --> 00:29:24.721 So these are like long term relationships that you establish. 00:29:24.721 --> 00:29:27.432 You become trusted by your MLA or your MP 00:29:27.766 --> 00:29:31.227 and and be like a legitimate person and tell them how important it is. 00:29:31.227 --> 00:29:34.022 The other the other the last piece that I'll just mention to you is 00:29:34.272 --> 00:29:36.065 people always go: “well, you’re going to go into this meeting. 00:29:36.065 --> 00:29:38.234 I don't want to sound like I don't know what I'm talking about.” 00:29:39.068 --> 00:29:42.530 All these people need to get across is that you're unhappy. 00:29:42.906 --> 00:29:44.991 Here are the reasons why and 00:29:44.991 --> 00:29:46.326 Here's how important it is to you. 00:29:46.326 --> 00:29:47.410 Because when we come back to this, 00:29:47.410 --> 00:29:51.080 like what you said is politicians like two things, money and votes. 00:29:51.289 --> 00:29:51.790 Right? 00:29:51.790 --> 00:29:54.584 And if they're worried that the votes are not going to come, 00:29:55.001 --> 00:29:56.544 you're going to change their mind. 00:29:56.544 --> 00:29:59.798 You're going to change that party's mind, and they will move 00:29:59.798 --> 00:30:00.757 in a different direction. 00:30:00.757 --> 00:30:04.093 And I think that's part of, you know, there is a lot of inertia 00:30:04.093 --> 00:30:08.431 behind the opposition to C 21 where the public is starting to bite. 00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:11.518 And that's where the BCWF, I think has been really well positioned because 00:30:11.518 --> 00:30:16.773 we've been able to talk to you like CBC Radio, CBC, some of the media outlets 00:30:16.773 --> 00:30:21.861 that probably seem more left leaning are giving us a lot of airtime 00:30:22.111 --> 00:30:25.615 and talking about this, not in the sense that gun owners are bad people. 00:30:25.615 --> 00:30:26.574 They're actually getting 00:30:26.574 --> 00:30:30.703 through to the facts and starting to call that the government of Canada out on it. 00:30:30.703 --> 00:30:31.538 And so, 00:30:31.538 --> 00:30:31.746 you know, 00:30:31.746 --> 00:30:34.958 I guess what I’m saying is all of this works, you might not feel great 00:30:34.958 --> 00:30:38.294 after your meeting with your MP or your MLA, but you're having an effect. 00:30:38.294 --> 00:30:39.045 That's their job. 00:30:39.045 --> 00:30:42.799 Their job is to not show emotion, to not say, I'm going to take this back. 00:30:42.799 --> 00:30:44.634 They got to tow the party line, right? 00:30:44.634 --> 00:30:46.177 It's like being on a team. 00:30:46.177 --> 00:30:49.973 You might be a fourth line hockey player and you might not get much ice time, 00:30:49.973 --> 00:30:52.058 but you're not going to go complain to the coach, right? 00:30:52.684 --> 00:30:56.563 I really like that because so often people lose fact of the lose 00:30:56.563 --> 00:31:00.692 sight of the fact that they're just people like you or I. 00:31:00.775 --> 00:31:02.735 Yeah, they have the same motivations. 00:31:02.735 --> 00:31:03.528 They got the same things 00:31:03.528 --> 00:31:06.281 that hurt their feelings, that make them uncomfortable or upset. 00:31:07.115 --> 00:31:08.366 You treat them with respect. 00:31:08.366 --> 00:31:11.786 You know, there's a saying, Oh, it's not personal. 00:31:11.786 --> 00:31:13.663 Jesse, this is just business. 00:31:13.663 --> 00:31:16.082 And I've always taken the approach. 00:31:16.082 --> 00:31:18.042 My business is built on relationships. 00:31:18.042 --> 00:31:21.254 Those relationships take time to establish are built on trust, 00:31:22.005 --> 00:31:25.508 which are and trust can be easily broken. 00:31:25.508 --> 00:31:27.677 All business is personal. 00:31:27.677 --> 00:31:30.221 Building those personal connections and relationships 00:31:30.221 --> 00:31:33.683 is what helps grow a business from nothing to something. 00:31:33.933 --> 00:31:36.436 And it's what is going to help. 00:31:36.436 --> 00:31:41.107 If you treat any one of these issues as a business problem 00:31:41.691 --> 00:31:45.194 is, I think, going to help see resolution favorably 00:31:45.194 --> 00:31:47.530 if you can have that relationship, because it's really hard 00:31:47.739 --> 00:31:49.532 to have a really good relationship 00:31:49.532 --> 00:31:53.077 with Jesse, but then go do something which, you know, is completely off site. 00:31:53.077 --> 00:31:56.414 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You yeah. 00:31:56.414 --> 00:32:00.627 The and you'll find interesting in C 21 like when you you know people don't, 00:32:00.919 --> 00:32:04.297 you know nerd out in the policy world and watch what's going on in Ottawa 00:32:04.297 --> 00:32:08.092 but you will find that two of the MP’s 00:32:08.801 --> 00:32:14.140 who are in the NDP caucus have been raising like major grief 00:32:14.140 --> 00:32:18.561 in Ottawa about Bill C 21 and those are both MPs 00:32:18.561 --> 00:32:23.107 where our clubs have, you know, established relationships with them 00:32:23.107 --> 00:32:27.236 to help educate them like come out to our we're going to have a range day, come out to our range 00:32:27.236 --> 00:32:31.115 Let's show you how this works and what the process is. 00:32:31.115 --> 00:32:34.619 And so those people are up to speed and now they're asking questions, right? 00:32:34.619 --> 00:32:39.123 So, yeah, I know I get the helplessness 00:32:39.123 --> 00:32:43.127 or hopelessness feeling, but it's you got to be resilient to that. 00:32:43.127 --> 00:32:47.173 And and if you build those relationships at a time over time, like the part 00:32:47.173 --> 00:32:47.882 that I don't understand 00:32:47.882 --> 00:32:50.468 as well is everybody thinks, conservation is like, oh, 00:32:50.468 --> 00:32:53.054 this party is the only party that practice conservation. 00:32:53.054 --> 00:32:55.390 It's a non partizan issue. Right? Right. 00:32:55.515 --> 00:32:58.017 Like everybody cares about sustainability. 00:32:58.017 --> 00:33:03.481 So the more that we can advocate and show elected officials that this is our number 00:33:03.481 --> 00:33:06.943 one issue, you know, I'm a hunter and angler and my number one 00:33:06.943 --> 00:33:10.780 issue as a British Colombian is X, Y, and Z. 00:33:11.197 --> 00:33:12.365 They're going to get the message. 00:33:12.365 --> 00:33:15.702 I mean, they understand when people are bent out of shape or when people 00:33:15.702 --> 00:33:18.413 are passionate about it, and they'll do everything they can to support it. 00:33:19.122 --> 00:33:23.584 So, you know, mobilizing people, providing people with the 00:33:24.043 --> 00:33:26.838 the tools so that they can go out there and speak and 00:33:26.838 --> 00:33:30.758 have some confidence like, well, you say I've heard that is a common barrier. 00:33:30.758 --> 00:33:33.261 People said I haven't had time to read the whole bill. 00:33:33.261 --> 00:33:35.138 I don't know all the ins and outs. 00:33:35.138 --> 00:33:36.848 You're an expert, right? 00:33:36.848 --> 00:33:38.808 Can you go speak for me? Yeah. 00:33:38.808 --> 00:33:40.143 And that idea of expert. 00:33:40.143 --> 00:33:42.812 Well, who's an expert like I've been, I, 00:33:43.855 --> 00:33:46.733 I've been a subject matter expert in every level, of court. 00:33:46.941 --> 00:33:49.277 And federal, provincial and municipal. 00:33:49.736 --> 00:33:51.946 I've qualified as an expert in certain issues. 00:33:51.946 --> 00:33:53.781 And I will still look at myself 00:33:53.781 --> 00:33:55.908 and look around and say, well, look at that person over there. 00:33:55.908 --> 00:33:56.701 They're an expert. 00:33:56.701 --> 00:34:00.246 You know, I had a friend who was climbing with another friend 00:34:00.246 --> 00:34:03.332 who's a well accomplished client where he’s a ACMG guide 00:34:03.958 --> 00:34:08.337 and he says he was belaying at the bottom girl comes up, says all “oh you’re a climber are you?” 00:34:08.337 --> 00:34:09.964 And he says, oh, no, no, I'm not a climber 00:34:09.964 --> 00:34:12.675 He's like, Well, you got a harness on, you've got shoes on. 00:34:12.675 --> 00:34:15.428 And “well, I've only been a couple of times before.” I said 00:34:15.428 --> 00:34:18.097 Then. You're a climber. Yeah, right. Yeah. Oh, got it. 00:34:18.347 --> 00:34:21.309 And in the same way you know, I look around and I see 00:34:22.185 --> 00:34:24.437 I, I own a firearms business. 00:34:24.437 --> 00:34:26.230 I'm into. 00:34:26.230 --> 00:34:31.027 I enjoy precision rifle shooting, pistol shooting, shotgun 00:34:31.027 --> 00:34:35.615 shooting, I hunt, and but I don't see myself as a gun guy. 00:34:35.865 --> 00:34:37.366 And people come by and they look around 00:34:37.366 --> 00:34:39.368 Trav, you're a gun guy. Yeah, right. 00:34:39.368 --> 00:34:42.789 So I think for people to just kind of realize that 00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:46.542 if they're in it, even if they just dip their toe a little bit in that pool. 00:34:46.584 --> 00:34:47.668 Yeah, they're in the pool. 00:34:47.668 --> 00:34:48.419 Yeah. Yeah. 00:34:48.419 --> 00:34:49.337 Well, and, and, 00:34:49.337 --> 00:34:52.965 and the extension of that is they're going to know more than their MLA and MP 00:34:53.382 --> 00:34:58.846 I mean, just, just defacto being involved in the world of conservation or sports 00:34:58.846 --> 00:35:00.098 shooting or hunting angling, 00:35:00.098 --> 00:35:04.685 you most likely know more than 99% of the elected officials 00:35:04.685 --> 00:35:07.480 because they just don't know anything about it. Right. Right. 00:35:07.480 --> 00:35:10.233 So they're oblivious. So you do not need to be an expert. 00:35:10.233 --> 00:35:14.362 And as you said, like MLA’s and MP’s it's a popularity contest. 00:35:14.362 --> 00:35:16.656 They're every day people there are some of them 00:35:16.656 --> 00:35:19.534 that are really intelligent, have tons of policy. 00:35:19.784 --> 00:35:23.830 But there's a ton that or not that literally one day were like I'm 00:35:23.830 --> 00:35:25.331 going to run for politics, 00:35:25.331 --> 00:35:27.458 I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm going to give it a try. 00:35:27.458 --> 00:35:29.377 And so I've been a teacher for a little bit 00:35:29.377 --> 00:35:31.129 and I thought, you know, I'm might try. 00:35:31.129 --> 00:35:31.587 Yeah, I know. 00:35:31.587 --> 00:35:34.132 Totally. Totally. And that's that's our system, right? 00:35:34.173 --> 00:35:35.716 That's our system. That's how it's built. 00:35:35.716 --> 00:35:39.804 And so, yeah, as a as as someone who's passionate about these things, 00:35:40.096 --> 00:35:43.933 don't ever think that, that the person, the MP that you're meeting 00:35:43.933 --> 00:35:45.643 knows more than you because they don't. Like you 00:35:45.643 --> 00:35:47.645 are there really to build your relationship 00:35:47.645 --> 00:35:51.732 You're there to educate them first and then advocate, right? 00:35:51.732 --> 00:35:53.943 So you want to be seen as a person 00:35:53.943 --> 00:35:57.822 they can trust who gives them good information that's reliable. 00:35:57.822 --> 00:35:59.323 But yeah, you're going to know way 00:35:59.323 --> 00:36:01.159 more than your MLA or MP when you meet with them. 00:36:01.159 --> 00:36:03.286 Yes, 100% the case. 00:36:03.286 --> 00:36:05.788 So there's a mutual 00:36:05.788 --> 00:36:09.167 acquaintance of ours has introduced me to a term called GOWT. 00:36:09.375 --> 00:36:11.335 I don't know if you've heard that one before. 00:36:11.335 --> 00:36:14.213 GOWT: grumpy old white dudes. 00:36:14.213 --> 00:36:15.798 Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. 00:36:15.798 --> 00:36:19.927 I had never heard that term before, but you were talking about demographics 00:36:19.927 --> 00:36:24.307 within the the hunting community and firearms community 00:36:24.849 --> 00:36:28.436 and you touch on that a little bit and yeah, it, it does traditionally 00:36:28.436 --> 00:36:33.691 have this grumpy old white dude, male dominated 00:36:35.109 --> 00:36:35.860 people who 00:36:35.860 --> 00:36:38.571 feel that they're having things stripped away from them 00:36:38.571 --> 00:36:42.074 and so they're always on the defensive, which is probably why they come across 00:36:42.074 --> 00:36:43.242 as grumpy. 00:36:43.242 --> 00:36:46.871 But our demographics are so quickly changing, 00:36:46.871 --> 00:36:50.124 which is amazing. 00:36:50.124 --> 00:36:53.252 You talk about new people, new hunters 00:36:53.377 --> 00:36:56.047 getting into and new people get into firearms, women 00:36:56.047 --> 00:36:59.175 make up the largest percentage of new firearms 00:36:59.175 --> 00:37:01.719 and new hunters across North America. 00:37:02.595 --> 00:37:05.598 And this is something the Wildlife Federation from from 00:37:06.182 --> 00:37:09.685 my observations, as an outsider looking in has been embracing. 00:37:09.727 --> 00:37:14.815 Yeah. Did that concept play 00:37:14.815 --> 00:37:19.195 into your original thesis that you did about recruitment and retention? 00:37:19.403 --> 00:37:20.321 Yeah, 00:37:20.947 --> 00:37:23.241 to a lesser extent at that time. 00:37:23.241 --> 00:37:25.243 I mean, at that time hunter numbers were crashing. 00:37:25.243 --> 00:37:31.415 So we go from, you know, in the early eighties, 176,000 hunters every year. 00:37:31.457 --> 00:37:32.375 Licensed hunters. 00:37:32.375 --> 00:37:32.667 Yeah. 00:37:32.667 --> 00:37:36.295 And I think by 2004 we were at 84,000. 00:37:36.295 --> 00:37:39.465 So like the world was literally falling apart at that point. 00:37:39.966 --> 00:37:44.011 And it's like, okay, let's let's try to figure out why this is happening. 00:37:44.011 --> 00:37:46.389 Let's figure out what the constraints are. 00:37:46.389 --> 00:37:51.143 The demographic shift was not necessarily on the radar at that time. 00:37:51.394 --> 00:37:53.604 It was just it was just starting to turn. 00:37:53.604 --> 00:37:55.314 And I mean, that was part of it is 00:37:55.314 --> 00:37:58.067 there were some signs in the states that it was starting to shift and say, 00:37:58.067 --> 00:38:00.611 okay, let's put some more focus on this and talk about it. 00:38:01.612 --> 00:38:04.115 So I would say a lot of it's happened on its own. 00:38:04.115 --> 00:38:06.742 There are a few changes and a bit of discussion that happened. 00:38:07.285 --> 00:38:08.661 But yeah, I think it's phenomenal. 00:38:08.661 --> 00:38:14.500 I mean, hunting and fishing as a family activity is like for the future 00:38:14.500 --> 00:38:17.878 of hunting and fishing is like the best possible outcome you can have. 00:38:17.878 --> 00:38:19.213 And here we are in the Lower Mainland, 00:38:19.213 --> 00:38:23.718 which is outside of Toronto, one of the most diverse places in Canada. 00:38:23.718 --> 00:38:24.552 Yeah, for sure. 00:38:24.552 --> 00:38:25.553 You have people coming here 00:38:25.553 --> 00:38:28.180 from all over the world and you can take one or two approaches, 00:38:29.557 --> 00:38:30.599 you can take an approach. 00:38:30.599 --> 00:38:32.310 That says well, these people don't know anything 00:38:32.310 --> 00:38:35.896 about conservation and so they shouldn't be hunting and fishing or you can go, 00:38:36.230 --> 00:38:39.650 These people are clearly interested in fishing or hunting, 00:38:40.192 --> 00:38:45.031 so let's try to educate them and bring them up to our standards 00:38:45.031 --> 00:38:49.035 or cultural norms around how we treat wildlife and how we interact with it. 00:38:49.368 --> 00:38:50.828 So those are the two approaches. 00:38:50.828 --> 00:38:52.955 And I mean, the second approach 00:38:52.955 --> 00:38:56.292 brings more people in the way you want them to behave. 00:38:56.292 --> 00:38:59.503 And it and it also will fan out into these communities. 00:38:59.503 --> 00:39:03.132 So like, you know, in British Columbia where we're a bit of a microcosm 00:39:03.132 --> 00:39:06.135 because we have all these people, you know, like 90 plus percent 00:39:06.135 --> 00:39:09.138 of the population occurs in like less than 5% of the province. 00:39:09.305 --> 00:39:09.889 Right. 00:39:09.972 --> 00:39:14.435 And so we can take the approach that we shouldn't even go there and engage 00:39:14.435 --> 00:39:16.479 the lower mainland, or we can take the approach 00:39:16.479 --> 00:39:20.775 that we should try to influence the Lower mainland and educate the Lower Mainland. 00:39:20.983 --> 00:39:24.779 And we know that BC politics is really driven to the lower Mainland, right? 00:39:25.154 --> 00:39:29.283 So we should probably be trying to engage down here and to talk to people 00:39:29.283 --> 00:39:31.994 and to bring up the issues and to make hunting, 00:39:32.203 --> 00:39:35.915 fishing and sports shooting supported by the communities. 00:39:35.956 --> 00:39:36.582 Right. 00:39:36.582 --> 00:39:39.085 So that when something like Bill C 21 comes up, 00:39:39.335 --> 00:39:44.507 you know, the MLA from Langley and the MP from Langley go, What are you doing? 00:39:44.882 --> 00:39:47.510 I've got 3000 constituents at a club 00:39:47.802 --> 00:39:49.387 who do all these great stewardship 00:39:49.387 --> 00:39:52.348 projects who are taking care of salmon, who have a rifle range, 00:39:52.598 --> 00:39:54.850 and you're taking them all off and you're going to cost me 00:39:54.850 --> 00:39:57.228 my seat in the next election unless you change it. Right? 00:39:57.520 --> 00:40:01.190 So that's so that's kind of like I think where we want to go is, 00:40:01.649 --> 00:40:03.609 you know, you can you can ignore the lower mainland 00:40:03.609 --> 00:40:07.154 or you can get yourself into it and try to start having a conversation 00:40:07.154 --> 00:40:08.697 about the sustainability of Fish and wildlife. 00:40:08.697 --> 00:40:10.783 I think the second approach is the best approach. 00:40:11.033 --> 00:40:15.454 You know, Shane Mahoney was saying you can jump into the river, 00:40:16.247 --> 00:40:19.875 you can be right in your approach, you can put your hands up and start 00:40:19.875 --> 00:40:22.962 walking up that river, but the river is going to win. 00:40:22.962 --> 00:40:23.212 Yeah, 00:40:25.047 --> 00:40:26.882 but if you can find something 00:40:26.882 --> 00:40:30.553 that's floating down the river and you're able to jump on that and work 00:40:30.553 --> 00:40:32.596 with the river in order to direct it 00:40:32.721 --> 00:40:36.392 in a way that is going to be beneficial for everybody in his assessment. 00:40:36.392 --> 00:40:39.228 And it's I agree, it's something that, 00:40:39.228 --> 00:40:42.565 you know, my wife's a chef and we've talked about this for a very long time. 00:40:42.565 --> 00:40:46.068 His assessment is food is that vehicle to be able to reach people 00:40:46.610 --> 00:40:51.073 who may be adverse or disinterested or have just ignorant 00:40:51.157 --> 00:40:53.826 to to what hunting and fishing is all about. 00:40:54.160 --> 00:40:58.164 Food is that common universal vehicle, the culture of food, 00:40:58.164 --> 00:40:59.582 how it's shared, how it's prepared. 00:40:59.582 --> 00:41:01.625 And and I think that 00:41:02.751 --> 00:41:05.713 COVID had probably really highlighted 00:41:05.713 --> 00:41:09.508 the need for sustainable harvesting and 00:41:10.634 --> 00:41:11.552 being able to have 00:41:11.552 --> 00:41:14.680 some sort of sufficiency self-sufficiency within us. 00:41:14.680 --> 00:41:18.934 Yeah, yeah I think I can’t remember I think it's Rinella who said that 00:41:19.101 --> 00:41:24.815 He calls it venison diplomacy right and and that is huge like at our place 00:41:24.815 --> 00:41:28.319 we have people over all the time who are non hunters. 00:41:28.319 --> 00:41:31.238 Non anglers don't eat well and that's all we eat right. 00:41:31.238 --> 00:41:35.034 And even in terms of how, you know, this comes back to social media too 00:41:35.242 --> 00:41:38.787 and we've talked about this all over the province for the last 15 years. 00:41:38.787 --> 00:41:38.996 Right. 00:41:38.996 --> 00:41:42.082 But but making hunting relatable 00:41:42.291 --> 00:41:45.628 to you non hunters and anglers is huge. 00:41:45.669 --> 00:41:46.003 Right? 00:41:46.003 --> 00:41:50.174 So someone who doesn’t hunt or fish does not understand a picture 00:41:50.174 --> 00:41:54.553 of a dead animal, but someone who hunts, doesn't hunt and fish understands. 00:41:54.845 --> 00:41:57.848 Here is the story of my hunt. Right? 00:41:58.140 --> 00:42:01.685 So one of the pictures is the animal you harvested the other nine pictures of. 00:42:01.685 --> 00:42:03.187 Here's what we did before. 00:42:03.187 --> 00:42:06.815 Here's the misadventure that we had here, the time I fell in the creek. 00:42:07.066 --> 00:42:10.653 And then here's the meal at the end, and then it becomes relatable. 00:42:10.653 --> 00:42:12.905 Hunting becomes relatable. And same with social media. 00:42:13.572 --> 00:42:14.865 Like on Twitter. 00:42:16.492 --> 00:42:17.159 There's a bunch 00:42:17.159 --> 00:42:20.162 of people now who who I don't think would’ve talked 00:42:20.162 --> 00:42:23.207 about, the fact that they were hunters five or ten years ago. 00:42:23.499 --> 00:42:28.003 But now that, you know, food people, I think the hunting communities realizing 00:42:28.003 --> 00:42:29.922 that food is a big connector, 00:42:29.922 --> 00:42:33.133 you know, everybody's putting up pictures of their meal, right? 00:42:33.133 --> 00:42:34.969 It's like, hey, here's what I ate. 00:42:34.969 --> 00:42:37.429 Here is the new thing that I made this week. 00:42:37.638 --> 00:42:40.307 And the non hunter is like, Well, that's cool. 00:42:40.307 --> 00:42:41.350 I love to do that. 00:42:41.350 --> 00:42:45.938 I love to try sushi from a salmon that I caught myself or I'd love to try 00:42:45.938 --> 00:42:51.277 whatever it is, you know, tongue, tacos or whatever, whatever it is, Right? 00:42:51.277 --> 00:42:53.195 Liver balls doesn't matter. 00:42:53.195 --> 00:42:58.325 So, yeah, you can make you can make hunting relatable to non hunters 00:42:59.326 --> 00:43:00.035 through. 00:43:00.035 --> 00:43:00.953 Yeah, through you. 00:43:00.953 --> 00:43:04.123 I mean, people appreciate what we do if it's put across properly. 00:43:05.291 --> 00:43:08.085 So I've seen a marked shift in since you become 00:43:08.085 --> 00:43:12.881 executive director of the Federation with how the federation communicates 00:43:12.881 --> 00:43:15.175 and you're out there, you'll get up and you'll do your 00:43:15.426 --> 00:43:17.595 We talked about this ahead of time. I have this. 00:43:17.595 --> 00:43:20.556 I was asked to do a bit of a talking head thing where I say something 00:43:20.556 --> 00:43:24.226 and it comes out, man, that was recorded, I think about 20 different times. 00:43:24.476 --> 00:43:27.396 Yeah. Like, oh, my eyes went too wide. 00:43:27.396 --> 00:43:29.565 I was doing something silly on this thing. 00:43:29.565 --> 00:43:31.525 And he said, You know what? 00:43:31.692 --> 00:43:34.361 You just you got to get over it one and done get it out there. 00:43:34.361 --> 00:43:35.321 But what I've noticed in 00:43:35.321 --> 00:43:39.283 the shift is the way that you guys communicate through social media. 00:43:40.826 --> 00:43:42.202 Do you have a background in that? 00:43:42.202 --> 00:43:45.914 Is that something that you're coaching on or help with or. 00:43:45.914 --> 00:43:47.416 No, I hate? Yeah, I know. 00:43:47.416 --> 00:43:49.960 Like our social media, like our marketing communications team, 00:43:49.960 --> 00:43:53.964 we've got an awesome team who are doing just like absolutely phenomenal work. 00:43:53.964 --> 00:43:57.760 But in terms of those videos, we got a ton of like awesome feedback. 00:43:57.760 --> 00:44:03.057 I hate doing them like with a passion in front of a camera is not my thing at all. 00:44:03.057 --> 00:44:05.559 And even on media interviews, like having a camera 00:44:05.559 --> 00:44:07.895 a foot away from my face, it's not my thing. 00:44:07.895 --> 00:44:10.689 I can talk to 300 people in a room, no problem. 00:44:10.689 --> 00:44:14.860 Yeah, the camera thing is not my jam, but I just, you know, there's it's. 00:44:14.902 --> 00:44:16.028 It goes to extremes for me. 00:44:16.028 --> 00:44:19.323 Either I either record it and do it off the cuff 00:44:19.323 --> 00:44:22.576 and ship it off to the team and they put it out. 00:44:22.868 --> 00:44:25.704 Or I spend like half a day trying to make it perfect 00:44:26.080 --> 00:44:29.458 and I do not have half a day record or one minute video, right? 00:44:29.917 --> 00:44:35.255 So for me, it's just like, hit the record button, spit out what we've been up to 00:44:35.297 --> 00:44:38.509 for the last two weeks, get it out on the airwaves and done. 00:44:38.509 --> 00:44:39.218 And on the other 00:44:39.218 --> 00:44:40.344 the other thing on the communication 00:44:40.344 --> 00:44:45.349 thing, as you may have noticed, is like, again, we're focusing on our membership, 00:44:45.349 --> 00:44:48.352 on our directors, the things that they do, the things that we do, 00:44:48.644 --> 00:44:51.730 and even in terms of our social media, like we are definitely 00:44:52.314 --> 00:44:55.359 getting the message across that hunting is becoming more diverse. 00:44:55.359 --> 00:44:57.861 So like Jenny's on our board, Charlotte is on our board 00:44:58.153 --> 00:45:00.197 talking about female participation, 00:45:00.197 --> 00:45:03.283 talking about other viewpoints, and we take flack for sure. 00:45:03.283 --> 00:45:04.868 It's really interesting, 00:45:04.868 --> 00:45:08.831 like Instagram and Facebook for us are like polar opposites. 00:45:09.456 --> 00:45:13.127 Instagram tends to be very positive space where people like to see 00:45:13.127 --> 00:45:16.380 these changing demographics, like to see diversity and hunting 00:45:16.380 --> 00:45:20.509 and angling, whereas Facebook not so accepting and warm. 00:45:21.552 --> 00:45:23.429 But we got to move on with it. 00:45:23.429 --> 00:45:26.140 The different age demographics too, that use a different platform. 00:45:26.140 --> 00:45:27.099 It's 100. 00:45:27.099 --> 00:45:29.143 That's a huge that's a huge part of it. 00:45:29.143 --> 00:45:32.563 But again, like you got to kind of stick to your principles 00:45:32.563 --> 00:45:35.858 and what you're trying to achieve and we are trying to include 00:45:35.858 --> 00:45:39.820 more people in outdoor recreation, conservation, hunting and angling. 00:45:39.820 --> 00:45:41.780 And so we got to show that. 00:45:41.780 --> 00:45:43.115 How do you do that? 00:45:43.115 --> 00:45:46.618 Well, it's in large part like talking, you know, interviewing 00:45:46.618 --> 00:45:49.246 people like Jenny and interviewing people like Charla. 00:45:49.955 --> 00:45:53.000 We've got yeah, it's really showing people, 00:45:53.333 --> 00:45:57.963 you know, if people like women who want to get into it or people 00:45:57.963 --> 00:46:00.132 who are visible minorities want to get into hunting or angling, 00:46:00.424 --> 00:46:03.886 if they just see a picture of an old white guy on social media 00:46:03.886 --> 00:46:06.638 every single time, it's unrelatable to them. 00:46:06.889 --> 00:46:07.181 Right? 00:46:07.181 --> 00:46:09.183 So how do you show themselves, 00:46:09.183 --> 00:46:12.186 you know, how do you show them that they fit into this community? 00:46:12.186 --> 00:46:14.980 That's the challenge is like it's like, you know, 00:46:15.189 --> 00:46:18.108 even when you look at some of the research in the states, it shows that up 00:46:18.108 --> 00:46:21.612 to 70% of kids want to try hunting and fishing. 00:46:21.945 --> 00:46:23.947 It's that they don't have access to it, right? 00:46:24.239 --> 00:46:28.535 So if you can show people that people like them are into these activities 00:46:28.869 --> 00:46:30.829 and they can talk about why they're into the activities, 00:46:30.829 --> 00:46:32.289 it suddenly becomes relatable. 00:46:32.289 --> 00:46:36.668 And you might push that person from just being hunting, curious to being a hunter 00:46:36.668 --> 00:46:41.673 or from being vehemently opposed to hunting to going, Hey, you know what? 00:46:42.007 --> 00:46:43.550 Jenny hunts and here's why she hunts. 00:46:43.550 --> 00:46:46.178 And I get that so I can get behind hunting now. 00:46:46.178 --> 00:46:49.056 Whereas before I saw and learned about her, I couldn't. 00:46:49.389 --> 00:46:50.516 Right? 00:46:50.766 --> 00:46:54.561 Well, that barrier to entry into hunting could be can be pretty huge. 00:46:54.937 --> 00:46:57.356 Um, there's a cost outlay. 00:46:57.356 --> 00:46:59.149 There's the knowledge acquisition, 00:46:59.149 --> 00:47:03.195 which is just it's a lifelong lifetime endeavor. 00:47:05.489 --> 00:47:08.492 are there things that the Federation is looking at 00:47:08.492 --> 00:47:12.579 or has been doing that can assist people in building that community 00:47:12.579 --> 00:47:17.292 and bridging the gap between no knowledge, no 00:47:18.794 --> 00:47:21.588 no ability to no kit, no gear 00:47:21.672 --> 00:47:24.967 to being able to get out there and do something with someone else. 00:47:24.967 --> 00:47:26.051 Yeah. Yeah. 00:47:26.051 --> 00:47:27.386 On their own. Yeah, absolutely. 00:47:27.386 --> 00:47:29.388 So two of the programs that we currently have 00:47:30.013 --> 00:47:32.516 becoming an outdoorswoman and women outdoors, that becoming 00:47:32.516 --> 00:47:37.813 an outdoors woman is like an all inclusive basically three dayer and you can learn 00:47:38.105 --> 00:47:42.359 whatever you want like fly fishing, chainsaws, backing up a trailer. 00:47:42.651 --> 00:47:46.655 You know, we're saving , you know, getting rid of lawyers retirements 00:47:46.655 --> 00:47:50.242 I guess, and saving, saving, saving marriages at the same time. 00:47:50.242 --> 00:47:50.826 Right. 00:47:51.159 --> 00:47:53.745 But but all those activities are offered in like 00:47:53.745 --> 00:47:57.916 this thing sells out like instantly like it's like a matter of days. 00:47:57.916 --> 00:47:59.209 And so last year, post COVID, 00:47:59.209 --> 00:48:03.171 we were finally able to get two smaller courses up, but we're really turning up 00:48:03.171 --> 00:48:06.884 the volume on those courses and trying to educate as many people. 00:48:06.884 --> 00:48:10.387 Like we've got a long term goal to basically educate 20,000 people a year 00:48:11.013 --> 00:48:12.222 through our different programs. 00:48:12.222 --> 00:48:16.393 And so yeah, so, so offering that, offering that kind of like 00:48:17.019 --> 00:48:21.440 taking people from in an ideal world, I'm opposed to hunting, to 00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:22.900 I'm okay with hunting to 00:48:22.900 --> 00:48:27.404 Hey I want to try this and then supporting them all the way through that journey. 00:48:28.155 --> 00:48:29.156 I think there's a lot of value. 00:48:29.156 --> 00:48:31.950 And so the BCWF’s motto kind of has always been 00:48:32.242 --> 00:48:36.204 join, volunteer, donate, and we're going to be putting educate 00:48:36.246 --> 00:48:40.709 like learn, join, volunteer, donate as part of the thing. 00:48:40.709 --> 00:48:44.504 So the upfront is them, you know, trying to get their, 00:48:44.504 --> 00:48:47.466 you know, brain engaged in terms of how this all works. 00:48:47.674 --> 00:48:51.094 You know, for somebody who comes from an education background, which I've always 00:48:51.094 --> 00:48:54.222 thought was kind of funny, actually, a friend pointed it out, says “Travis, 00:48:54.806 --> 00:48:57.559 You sucked at school, right?” 00:48:57.559 --> 00:49:00.520 How is it that you've got an education background? 00:49:00.520 --> 00:49:03.190 You you went to five different high schools, 00:49:03.190 --> 00:49:05.233 a few different elementary schools, like school just 00:49:05.233 --> 00:49:07.027 wasn't your thing and your into education. 00:49:07.027 --> 00:49:08.445 And I thought, well, I. 00:49:08.445 --> 00:49:11.823 I looked at the way that I would like to learn and how I can reach people. 00:49:11.823 --> 00:49:14.701 And it's not that I can't. 00:49:14.701 --> 00:49:16.244 It's just different way. 00:49:16.244 --> 00:49:18.830 And my approach seems to be resonating with other people. 00:49:19.122 --> 00:49:21.583 But that education piece is something that I know 00:49:21.583 --> 00:49:25.587 I've very strongly advocated for with the Federation for a number of years. 00:49:25.796 --> 00:49:29.883 I'm very encouraged to hear that because I see that as the vehicle. 00:49:29.883 --> 00:49:33.220 Just maybe it's just because of my echo chamber, I mean of my background. 00:49:33.220 --> 00:49:36.181 But I see that as the vehicle that's going to really propel 00:49:37.557 --> 00:49:40.268 the federation as well as 00:49:40.936 --> 00:49:44.773 B.C and beyond, and to having more people out there 00:49:44.773 --> 00:49:50.654 doing things in a way that's going to be ethical, sustainable and and growing. 00:49:50.654 --> 00:49:51.947 And in fact, I remember 00:49:51.947 --> 00:49:55.659 I was recently it was kind of funny because there is an article 00:49:56.451 --> 00:50:01.373 I don't... I think it might have been The Sun newspaper and this guy gets in there 00:50:01.373 --> 00:50:06.545 and he's talking about how in the eighties there is a 80% decline in 00:50:07.546 --> 00:50:10.007 new Hunter recruitment. 00:50:10.007 --> 00:50:11.717 And it kind of did coincide 00:50:11.717 --> 00:50:14.970 right with an education piece because this is in British Columbia 00:50:15.554 --> 00:50:19.266 and all of the Hunter education, outdoor 00:50:19.266 --> 00:50:23.562 education was taken outside of the school system and put into sort 00:50:23.562 --> 00:50:26.773 of private instructors and volunteer instructors throughout the province. 00:50:26.773 --> 00:50:30.736 And recently I was asked if I could find that article and I pulled it up. 00:50:30.736 --> 00:50:33.155 I'm like, Hey, that guy's Jesse 00:50:33.947 --> 00:50:36.700 was because those were ten years ago when I when I read that one. 00:50:36.700 --> 00:50:39.494 Yeah, that was you. You were the guy who was in that one. 00:50:39.494 --> 00:50:39.786 Yeah. 00:50:39.786 --> 00:50:42.998 So did that tie into that paper that you did? 00:50:43.206 --> 00:50:44.291 Yeah, yeah, yeah. 00:50:44.291 --> 00:50:45.208 That was part of the learning. 00:50:45.208 --> 00:50:45.417 Yeah. 00:50:45.417 --> 00:50:47.169 So I mean, yeah, 00:50:47.169 --> 00:50:50.714 the reality of all this is, is that it's not that people like you'll get, 00:50:50.714 --> 00:50:52.841 you'll get people who are opposed to hunting and fishing and say, 00:50:52.841 --> 00:50:55.177 well these are dying things, they're going out like smoking. 00:50:55.177 --> 00:50:56.511 And there was even 00:50:56.511 --> 00:50:59.848 a government official like a long time ago that said that. The reality is 00:51:00.223 --> 00:51:02.893 people want to go hunting and fishing and they want to try it. 00:51:02.893 --> 00:51:05.937 But like you say, there's so many barriers to entry 00:51:06.772 --> 00:51:10.609 and then so many things that you can screw up, especially not having that mentor. 00:51:10.609 --> 00:51:10.942 Right. 00:51:10.942 --> 00:51:13.987 So this is part of like the pre eighties approach. 00:51:13.987 --> 00:51:17.240 Which is father, it was a father and son activity predominantly. 00:51:17.240 --> 00:51:18.283 So dad taught son 00:51:18.283 --> 00:51:21.578 now we're finding as there's a whole bunch of people that are new to Canada 00:51:21.870 --> 00:51:25.540 or live in Vancouver were not exposed to that did not have a mentor 00:51:25.540 --> 00:51:29.377 and now they want to learn and so it's way harder to pick these activities up 00:51:30.045 --> 00:51:34.424 without having someone who knows what they're doing than it is with a mentor. 00:51:34.424 --> 00:51:38.220 And so even in terms of what we're doing in the Lower Mainland, we actually just 00:51:38.887 --> 00:51:42.349 just got an agreement together for the Seymour River, basically 00:51:42.349 --> 00:51:48.063 where we're going to be bringing a busload of high school students out to the river 00:51:48.063 --> 00:51:52.109 every day, I think from April, May and June to take them out to the river 00:51:52.109 --> 00:51:54.236 to talk about salmon, roll over some rocks, 00:51:54.236 --> 00:51:56.571 look for some bugs, take them up to the hatchery, 00:51:56.863 --> 00:51:59.032 give them a T-shirt and send them on their way. 00:51:59.116 --> 00:52:02.369 I think we're looking at doing it like I think it's like 1500 students 00:52:02.828 --> 00:52:04.037 every spring. 00:52:04.037 --> 00:52:06.373 Wow. To get the education right. 00:52:06.373 --> 00:52:08.917 And so what we're hoping is two things. 00:52:08.917 --> 00:52:13.755 One is that we're going to have 15 more 1500 kids a year that care about salmon 00:52:13.964 --> 00:52:16.341 and that have a better relationship with our environment. 00:52:16.341 --> 00:52:18.051 But the other thing that we're looking at too is like, 00:52:18.051 --> 00:52:19.386 I bet you a whole bunch of those kids 00:52:19.386 --> 00:52:23.140 want to learn to fish and maybe they're going to become BCWF members. 00:52:23.140 --> 00:52:24.099 And if we can start them out 00:52:24.099 --> 00:52:26.601 as BCWF members when they're in their teens, 00:52:26.601 --> 00:52:28.854 they're going to stick with us for a long time. 00:52:28.854 --> 00:52:32.482 We're going to raise the kind of anglers who are ethical, who understand 00:52:32.482 --> 00:52:35.527 regulations, who portray a good public image. 00:52:35.527 --> 00:52:37.821 So there's a whole bunch of things attached to that. 00:52:38.196 --> 00:52:41.116 You know, there is a quote, and I think it was I don't know 00:52:41.116 --> 00:52:44.578 who it was attributed to the person who said it was attributing it to. 00:52:45.579 --> 00:52:47.330 I think that's the current government in power. 00:52:47.330 --> 00:52:49.916 But they said you control the children, you control the future. 00:52:50.458 --> 00:52:53.295 And although that's kind of got negative connotations, to that. 00:52:53.587 --> 00:52:57.966 If you're able to provide the children with the education 00:52:57.966 --> 00:53:01.011 and the information and the ability to learn right on their own. 00:53:01.011 --> 00:53:02.512 So it's not just 00:53:03.013 --> 00:53:07.392 regurgitating rhetoric, you're going to have a much better future. 00:53:07.392 --> 00:53:11.855 And that's I believed very strongly in that education piece. 00:53:11.855 --> 00:53:14.107 And it's really encouraging to be to hear 00:53:14.107 --> 00:53:15.609 That's the direction 00:53:16.026 --> 00:53:16.902 the federation is going. 00:53:16.902 --> 00:53:19.196 Yeah, we're finding and hearing more and more about, 00:53:19.196 --> 00:53:19.821 you know, in the lower 00:53:19.821 --> 00:53:22.616 mainline here too, like you do have you do have you know, 00:53:22.741 --> 00:53:25.994 there aren't as many salmon as there was ten or 40 years ago, but you do have 00:53:25.994 --> 00:53:29.748 a number of rivers that have like hatchery fish, hatchery coho or whatever. 00:53:30.123 --> 00:53:33.668 And so we are hearing more and more about all of these kids 00:53:33.668 --> 00:53:37.756 who want to try fishing, but their parents don't fish or, 00:53:38.048 --> 00:53:41.426 you know, like mom, like, you know, broken family or whatever, 00:53:41.426 --> 00:53:43.678 where the parents split up and they just don't have the access. 00:53:43.678 --> 00:53:47.641 So again, it's about supporting these kids, getting them outdoors. 00:53:47.974 --> 00:53:48.642 Right. 00:53:48.850 --> 00:53:52.145 You know, the alternative to keeping a kid busy is a kid gets in trouble, 00:53:52.145 --> 00:53:53.230 Right? So. 00:53:53.230 --> 00:53:55.982 So why wouldn't we invest some of our resources in the future 00:53:55.982 --> 00:53:59.319 instead of living day to day and trying to bring these kids up 00:53:59.861 --> 00:54:02.405 in a way that we think is going to be good for our Fish 00:54:02.405 --> 00:54:03.490 and Wildlife in the long run, 00:54:03.490 --> 00:54:05.408 But it's also going to be good for hunting and angling. 00:54:05.408 --> 00:54:07.702 It's going to be good for the BCWF 00:54:07.702 --> 00:54:12.290 So, you know, on that same forum where the individual that quote that I had 00:54:12.290 --> 00:54:14.918 at the very beginning was singing your praises, 00:54:15.460 --> 00:54:19.005 there is a common topic. 00:54:19.005 --> 00:54:22.217 That came up a few times and that was about indigenous hunting 00:54:22.842 --> 00:54:26.054 and that's an issue, of course, all across North America. 00:54:27.264 --> 00:54:29.724 The resources that we have don't belong 00:54:29.766 --> 00:54:33.645 to any one individual, it belongs to all of us in general, but we have different layers 00:54:33.645 --> 00:54:38.358 of government and different interests and sometimes those are butting heads. 00:54:38.400 --> 00:54:41.194 One of the quotes that came up, and I'll paraphrase because I didn't have it 00:54:41.194 --> 00:54:46.283 written down was, you know, I'm getting out of my tree stand at last 00:54:46.324 --> 00:54:49.869 after last light and I'm cutting trail walking back and I'm watching 00:54:50.578 --> 00:54:53.832 some hunters driving up in their truck and they're just starting their hunting 00:54:53.832 --> 00:54:56.960 for the evening or I'm fishing with my single barbless hook 00:54:57.294 --> 00:55:01.589 and getting upset about the fact that I'm not really catching anything 00:55:01.589 --> 00:55:05.093 just to see a net across the river and and a whole ton of bycatch. 00:55:05.677 --> 00:55:10.432 The that's a very emotionally charged politically. 00:55:10.765 --> 00:55:11.141 Yeah. 00:55:11.141 --> 00:55:16.313 treacherous area to navigate through but it needs to be navigated 00:55:16.313 --> 00:55:20.233 and needs to be talked about is how how do you find that. 00:55:21.276 --> 00:55:21.901 Yeah well 00:55:21.901 --> 00:55:25.530 it's not easy. no. right And I mean, -well, you looked at your watch. 00:55:25.655 --> 00:55:28.116 Should we change subjects? No, no, no, no, no, no. 00:55:28.116 --> 00:55:30.076 Because I've got to do the other meaning. 00:55:30.076 --> 00:55:31.786 No, it's it is not easy. 00:55:31.786 --> 00:55:34.789 I mean, in B.C., the reality is there's like 00:55:35.165 --> 00:55:38.084 over 200 different nations communities. 00:55:38.168 --> 00:55:38.793 Right? Right. 00:55:38.793 --> 00:55:43.256 So and there are a lot of challenges in our world, you know, 00:55:43.256 --> 00:55:46.301 we do not have the bandwidth or capacity to work with every single community. 00:55:46.301 --> 00:55:50.138 So really where we are is we're focused on building relationships with nations 00:55:50.138 --> 00:55:51.473 that want to work with us. 00:55:51.473 --> 00:55:55.143 And so there is one side of the story where, 00:55:55.143 --> 00:55:58.688 you know, people just fish when how they want. 00:55:58.688 --> 00:55:59.230 It doesn't matter 00:55:59.230 --> 00:56:02.525 the status of their population, if they're endangered or whatever. 00:56:02.817 --> 00:56:03.693 That's one side of the story. 00:56:03.693 --> 00:56:05.528 There's the other side of the story 00:56:05.528 --> 00:56:08.865 where there's nations who are voluntarily giving up their right 00:56:09.574 --> 00:56:14.245 to hunt and fish, who we're working with on stewardship projects to restore salmon. 00:56:14.245 --> 00:56:16.956 So hopefully one day we can all fish. 00:56:16.956 --> 00:56:21.336 There's nations who are yeah, who are like intentionally limiting their rights 00:56:21.336 --> 00:56:26.466 because they want to see non first Nations hunting and harvesting and fishing. 00:56:26.466 --> 00:56:28.927 And so that's where we're spending a lot of our time. 00:56:30.053 --> 00:56:32.514 You know, it's a big like there's a lot of nations, 00:56:32.722 --> 00:56:35.141 there's a lot of nations that are really proactive 00:56:35.392 --> 00:56:38.978 where they have their own licensing system, where they have 00:56:39.646 --> 00:56:42.190 like an MOU with the conservation officer service 00:56:42.190 --> 00:56:45.318 so that if their community members are not following the regulations 00:56:45.318 --> 00:56:46.444 that they have laid out, 00:56:46.444 --> 00:56:49.155 then the conservation officer service can charge those individuals. 00:56:49.155 --> 00:56:52.534 So so I guess in our world, you know, we don't have the bandwidth 00:56:52.700 --> 00:56:56.830 to work with everyone, the ones everybody who wants to progressively work 00:56:56.830 --> 00:56:57.247 and improve 00:56:57.247 --> 00:57:00.792 the sustainability of Fish and Wildlife or is where we're spending our time. 00:57:01.042 --> 00:57:05.422 And we are seeing like a number of nations who are who are, you know, 00:57:05.964 --> 00:57:08.258 essentially writing regulations for their own members 00:57:08.591 --> 00:57:11.386 and who are saying here is how we fish, here is 00:57:11.386 --> 00:57:14.597 how we hunt, here is what sustainability looks like. Like on Vancouver Island 00:57:14.597 --> 00:57:17.475 they have their own tags, like they have a tagging system. 00:57:17.475 --> 00:57:19.769 And it's like, here's your tag. 00:57:19.769 --> 00:57:22.480 You don't you don't get two you, you don't get three, you get one. 00:57:22.480 --> 00:57:27.277 So working, working with the nations who want to move forward, who are looking 00:57:27.277 --> 00:57:30.697 to improve the sustainability is where we're spending a lot of our time. 00:57:31.406 --> 00:57:32.991 So there's an old quote. 00:57:32.991 --> 00:57:35.952 I don't think it was Disraeli who said it, but it's been attributed to him 00:57:35.952 --> 00:57:37.120 and others. 00:57:37.120 --> 00:57:39.914 There's liars, liar, there's lies, 00:57:39.914 --> 00:57:43.751 then lies and statistics of there's liars, damn liars and statisticians 00:57:45.920 --> 00:57:47.922 is looking at statistics. 00:57:47.922 --> 00:57:52.635 Is it difficult to reach a consensus, a consensus throughout British Columbia 00:57:52.635 --> 00:57:56.264 as to what the concerns are with wildlife management? 00:57:56.890 --> 00:57:59.225 Yeah, yeah, yeah. Consensus is always hard. 00:57:59.392 --> 00:58:00.518 Yeah, right. 00:58:00.518 --> 00:58:03.688 And people and people don't want complex answers. 00:58:03.688 --> 00:58:05.315 They want easy answers, right? 00:58:05.315 --> 00:58:08.735 So in the world of wildlife, it can be we'll just get rid of the walls, right? 00:58:08.985 --> 00:58:11.279 In the world of fishing. It's just get rid of the nets. 00:58:11.279 --> 00:58:12.447 Just get rid of the seals. 00:58:12.447 --> 00:58:13.865 Just get rid of the commercial fishermen. 00:58:13.865 --> 00:58:16.826 Quite often it's just get rid of everything other than me, right? 00:58:17.285 --> 00:58:20.205 That's. That's the world we live in. 00:58:20.205 --> 00:58:22.332 But yeah, there's. 00:58:22.332 --> 00:58:24.250 Yeah, And that's the world of politics 00:58:24.250 --> 00:58:27.879 too politicians soundbites and like one zinger or one liners. 00:58:27.879 --> 00:58:30.256 And quite often in our world, it's not that simple. 00:58:30.256 --> 00:58:32.175 Sometimes it is, but quite often it isn't. 00:58:32.175 --> 00:58:33.426 So you're right. 00:58:33.426 --> 00:58:35.136 We're not going to get consensus for everybody. 00:58:35.136 --> 00:58:37.388 And again, you know, there's two approaches to this. 00:58:37.388 --> 00:58:37.889 One is 00:58:37.889 --> 00:58:41.559 where, you know, and you probably live this too, in your business, there is like 00:58:41.893 --> 00:58:47.315 3% of the people who will suck 95% of the energy out of you, right. 00:58:47.482 --> 00:58:48.441 Where there is like 00:58:48.441 --> 00:58:52.445 probably 20 or 30% of people who are like, I'm ready, put me in the game. 00:58:52.445 --> 00:58:55.198 I will play as hard as I possibly can. 00:58:55.198 --> 00:58:57.158 So, you know, who are you going to spend your time on? 00:58:57.158 --> 00:58:59.369 The people who want to suck the life out of you 00:58:59.369 --> 00:59:01.579 every single minute and are going to call and complain. 00:59:01.579 --> 00:59:02.997 Or the people who are like, 00:59:02.997 --> 00:59:05.250 I don't like this and here's what I'm going to do about it. 00:59:05.250 --> 00:59:07.418 Like the action oriented people 00:59:07.418 --> 00:59:10.964 is where we try to spend our time, where I'm trying to spend more 00:59:10.964 --> 00:59:14.717 and more of my time because, you know, there is a million people like this. 00:59:14.717 --> 00:59:18.429 The thing, too, there's a million people who will complain on an online forum, 00:59:18.638 --> 00:59:21.683 but they will never step out into the real world 00:59:21.683 --> 00:59:25.103 where they have a real name and they need to go meet with their MLA. 00:59:25.103 --> 00:59:29.566 And and quite frankly, like you just can't you can't get sucked into that vortex 00:59:29.566 --> 00:59:32.193 because it's not productive. Right. We're all looking in my mind. 00:59:32.193 --> 00:59:35.363 We're looking for outcomes and complaining to each other. 00:59:35.446 --> 00:59:37.740 You know, online does not change outcomes. 00:59:38.116 --> 00:59:40.868 What a breath of fresh air. I like that. 00:59:42.537 --> 00:59:45.331 I know we're conscious of time here because.. No we're we're good. 00:59:45.331 --> 00:59:46.583 We're good. Okay. Yeah. 00:59:46.583 --> 00:59:50.295 So your your master's thesis that you did. 00:59:50.295 --> 00:59:50.712 Yeah. 00:59:50.712 --> 00:59:52.046 I thought that was kind of interesting before 00:59:52.046 --> 00:59:53.506 we actually before we move on to that, 00:59:53.506 --> 00:59:56.175 is there anything on Hunter retention or recruitment? 00:59:56.175 --> 00:59:59.679 If you want to put some sound bites out there, if people were we're looking for 01:00:00.346 --> 01:00:04.809 successes that we're seeing in BC or maybe 01:00:06.185 --> 01:00:08.605 major points from your thesis that you put together, 01:00:08.605 --> 01:00:11.316 what would would be your summary of what 01:00:12.150 --> 01:00:16.821 well, it's a two part question then, you've looked at before as a thesis. 01:00:16.821 --> 01:00:17.155 Yeah. 01:00:17.155 --> 01:00:21.326 What were your thoughts on it there and is it still hold true now, and if now why not. 01:00:21.951 --> 01:00:26.247 Yeah yeah a lot it back then I mean we identified core 01:00:26.289 --> 01:00:28.374 the privatization of core as a barrier right. 01:00:28.374 --> 01:00:32.086 So you got to get people across that first part of the line. 01:00:32.378 --> 01:00:34.881 There are a whole bunch of things hunting regulations 01:00:36.215 --> 01:00:38.885 and then the mentorship was a big part of it too. 01:00:38.885 --> 01:00:40.887 So just basically access to it, right? 01:00:41.304 --> 01:00:43.931 So has that changed? Certainly. 01:00:44.015 --> 01:00:46.893 Like you said, hunting has become a more family oriented activity. 01:00:47.143 --> 01:00:50.021 I think the people where we're really missing out 01:00:50.855 --> 01:00:53.232 is probably down here and part, but 01:00:53.232 --> 01:00:58.696 also helping these like single moms who's who's kids, 01:00:58.696 --> 01:01:02.033 not just their son, want to get into fishing or hunting 01:01:02.033 --> 01:01:05.078 and moms going like, how do I even do this? 01:01:05.078 --> 01:01:05.828 Right. Right. 01:01:05.828 --> 01:01:09.707 And and so that's where we see like, we'll see moms take the core course. 01:01:09.707 --> 01:01:11.626 You see this with their with their kids. 01:01:11.626 --> 01:01:15.963 Yes... right Or we'll see women enroll in the becoming an outdoors women program 01:01:15.963 --> 01:01:20.093 so trying to so so it has changed in that sense of the demographics 01:01:20.093 --> 01:01:23.137 have changed and the supports that they need have changed. 01:01:23.471 --> 01:01:23.888 Right. 01:01:23.888 --> 01:01:27.225 And so in the past, I think the clubs provided a lot of the 01:01:27.642 --> 01:01:29.352 a lot of the social staff, right. 01:01:29.352 --> 01:01:32.438 Like the monthly meeting hang out dinners and stuff. 01:01:32.438 --> 01:01:34.273 But I think the clubs in the future 01:01:34.273 --> 01:01:37.026 and even now are going to have to shift more towards 01:01:37.777 --> 01:01:42.073 recognizing that their membership and recruiting and retaining new members 01:01:42.073 --> 01:01:46.536 is really thinking about this changing demographic and thinking about 01:01:46.536 --> 01:01:51.833 events and functions to support the this this lack and thirst for knowledge. 01:01:52.166 --> 01:01:53.835 Right In the past, like everybody knew like, 01:01:53.835 --> 01:01:57.630 oh yeah, the hunting regulations back then were this and this cup walk looked 01:01:57.630 --> 01:01:58.089 like this. 01:01:58.089 --> 01:01:59.424 And here's how many deer around 01:01:59.424 --> 01:02:02.468 the people who are getting into it now have no baseline, right? 01:02:02.468 --> 01:02:05.012 Their baseline is today. It is not 1970. 01:02:05.263 --> 01:02:09.767 So figuring out a way to kind of fill that gap, that knowledge gap, and also 01:02:10.601 --> 01:02:13.896 kind of help these new hunters get up to speed 01:02:13.896 --> 01:02:17.442 and anglers get up to speed, I think is is what's changed, I would say. 01:02:18.067 --> 01:02:20.987 Have you heard of the first Hunt Foundation? 01:02:20.987 --> 01:02:22.572 No razzle dazzle. 01:02:22.572 --> 01:02:27.118 Rick Brazel, as he called himself Rick Brazel in the States has had 01:02:28.035 --> 01:02:31.789 him as and others have been pushing very hard and they've built something 01:02:31.789 --> 01:02:35.251 called the First Hunt Foundations, designed specifically to take people out 01:02:36.043 --> 01:02:38.629 who've never hunted before and pair them up 01:02:38.629 --> 01:02:43.426 with a vetted, background checked, educated 01:02:44.844 --> 01:02:45.553 mentor. 01:02:45.553 --> 01:02:48.222 Yeah, to take a person out and they can get out 01:02:48.222 --> 01:02:50.349 hunting once or twice with the hope that going off. 01:02:50.349 --> 01:02:52.810 It's not like you've got a long time and maybe you'll develop a longtime 01:02:52.810 --> 01:02:57.148 relationship and hunting partner, but that person's resources are 01:02:58.274 --> 01:02:59.400 able to be shared with others. 01:02:59.400 --> 01:03:01.652 So it's not like you're always monopolizing them. 01:03:01.778 --> 01:03:05.740 Yeah, but he's got this thing going with the first Hunter Foundation. 01:03:05.740 --> 01:03:07.450 It's growing rapidly. 01:03:07.450 --> 01:03:11.245 They're doing an amazing job and it's introducing 01:03:11.746 --> 01:03:15.666 youth and new hunters into what it's like under 01:03:16.459 --> 01:03:19.837 the mentorship of somebody who's been doing it successfully for a while. 01:03:19.837 --> 01:03:22.340 Yeah, yeah. Alberta has a similar program too 01:03:22.340 --> 01:03:24.884 I mean, that's something we're just we're just launching into. 01:03:24.926 --> 01:03:28.471 But the the other piece of that too, is like there's the part where you get into 01:03:28.596 --> 01:03:30.264 hunting. There's also the social structure. 01:03:30.264 --> 01:03:30.973 And so that comes up. 01:03:30.973 --> 01:03:33.810 A lot in the research too, is like people, 01:03:34.936 --> 01:03:35.686 you know, like we can 01:03:35.686 --> 01:03:38.773 let's just say we have a group of four people who hunt together. 01:03:38.773 --> 01:03:43.152 One guy or girl might be like, I'm here to get the biggest buck 01:03:43.152 --> 01:03:45.696 I'm going to get up at 430 in the morning every single day. 01:03:45.696 --> 01:03:48.491 I’m gunna be back an hour after light, when people might be like, 01:03:48.491 --> 01:03:51.369 Wow, I'm just here and I hope I get some meat to take home. 01:03:51.369 --> 01:03:55.665 The other person might be going, I'm just here because you all are here, right? 01:03:56.082 --> 01:03:58.000 And you can get this in like one hunting group. 01:03:58.000 --> 01:04:02.171 And so part of the challenge in this like sense of community, which Jenny talks 01:04:02.171 --> 01:04:06.259 about a lot, too, is that's missing is is if one of those people move away 01:04:06.592 --> 01:04:09.720 or one of them gives up hunting like the whole group can fizzle. 01:04:09.971 --> 01:04:13.349 So for these new hunters, having that sense of community 01:04:13.349 --> 01:04:16.102 and being able to build people around them is really important. 01:04:16.394 --> 01:04:18.855 You see this in the research a lot. 01:04:18.855 --> 01:04:21.399 You know, people always say, I don't have enough time in our world. 01:04:21.399 --> 01:04:24.026 I'm sure that's true and it's probably never been more true. 01:04:24.318 --> 01:04:26.445 But but this sense of community 01:04:27.280 --> 01:04:31.117 is huge for hunting and fishing, like we have to build. 01:04:31.409 --> 01:04:36.372 We have to build some better lines of sight between all these people that enjoy it. 01:04:36.372 --> 01:04:39.125 And I mean, the clubs the clubs do provide 01:04:39.500 --> 01:04:42.670 that to a certain extent, but we need to focus in on it. 01:04:42.670 --> 01:04:44.714 I mean, that's that's one of the biggest missing pieces. 01:04:44.755 --> 01:04:48.050 Sure, it's fine if one person wants to take up hunting, but chances are 01:04:48.885 --> 01:04:51.220 they're not going to want to go hunting by themselves. 01:04:51.220 --> 01:04:56.517 So you have to find people that are compatible, I guess, to go out hunting. 01:04:56.517 --> 01:04:58.811 And I don't know your experience, like we all have different experience. 01:04:58.811 --> 01:05:01.439 I'm totally happy to go hunting by myself for a week back 01:05:01.439 --> 01:05:03.774 when grizzly bears were open, like I'd just take off. 01:05:03.816 --> 01:05:06.444 Yeah, but I know, you know, my wife hunts. 01:05:06.694 --> 01:05:08.863 She's not. She's not going to go by herself. 01:05:08.863 --> 01:05:10.031 It's not her jam. Right. 01:05:10.031 --> 01:05:11.532 And we have friends that are the same way. 01:05:11.532 --> 01:05:14.827 Like if, if there's a bunch of people going, there are 100% in. 01:05:15.202 --> 01:05:18.623 But if it's like we're headed up north and we're going to head off 01:05:18.623 --> 01:05:21.250 in different directions, are going to see each other in five days. 01:05:21.542 --> 01:05:23.294 They're not into that, right? I hear you. 01:05:23.294 --> 01:05:27.965 So you got to build that that network And I'm... So how how 01:05:28.466 --> 01:05:31.969 Yeah Well and that so sense of community comes from a whole different 01:05:32.136 --> 01:05:32.970 bunch of different places 01:05:32.970 --> 01:05:37.016 but like these educational you know like women outdoors becoming outdoorswomen 01:05:37.183 --> 01:05:40.186 So for example, last year we had two. 01:05:40.728 --> 01:05:44.231 So I went to an Oceola Club meeting right after our bow. 01:05:44.231 --> 01:05:47.276 Two of the ladies that had just signed up for the Oceola 01:05:47.276 --> 01:05:50.237 Club were also two ladies that had just taken the BOW program. 01:05:50.529 --> 01:05:54.033 They also that night volunteered for the southern interior mule 01:05:54.075 --> 01:05:55.368 deer project. 01:05:55.368 --> 01:05:58.663 So again, like stringing these pieces together, I'm interested in this. 01:05:58.663 --> 01:06:00.081 I took the first course. 01:06:00.081 --> 01:06:05.336 I joined a club, I'm volunteering for a project and then having club activities 01:06:05.586 --> 01:06:09.006 that help support that network and facilitate that relationship 01:06:09.006 --> 01:06:10.841 I think is a big part of it. Right? 01:06:10.841 --> 01:06:15.054 Things like pint nights, backcountry hunters and anglers do that as well. 01:06:15.054 --> 01:06:17.807 Like they're really valuable in building the network. 01:06:18.349 --> 01:06:20.977 So these people need to feel like a sense of belonging 01:06:20.977 --> 01:06:23.562 to the community, I guess is what we're talking about. 01:06:23.980 --> 01:06:27.191 You know, I think having a strong North Star 01:06:27.441 --> 01:06:31.278 that everyone's gravitating towards can bring in a whole bunch of different 01:06:31.278 --> 01:06:34.573 backgrounds and interests. 01:06:34.573 --> 01:06:35.992 As long as they're on board 01:06:35.992 --> 01:06:38.327 knowing this is the North Star that we're moving towards. 01:06:38.327 --> 01:06:40.538 And that's what I see the federation value 01:06:40.579 --> 01:06:44.291 is, is helping make sure that that star is lit bright. 01:06:44.291 --> 01:06:48.421 People have an idea of where that's going and the community can work towards that. 01:06:48.838 --> 01:06:54.093 Otherwise you just find yourself in that level of division worried. 01:06:54.093 --> 01:06:58.639 Well, I'm into the angling group, but I even at well, I angle but only with flies. 01:06:58.639 --> 01:07:01.183 Well I cast but only spay Right. Yeah. 01:07:01.267 --> 01:07:05.521 And so but if you have that guiding light that they're working towards, 01:07:05.521 --> 01:07:09.775 I think that will help the communities become cohesive. 01:07:09.775 --> 01:07:11.110 Yeah. Yeah, you're right. 01:07:11.110 --> 01:07:13.362 Yeah. It's been, it has been very interesting. 01:07:13.362 --> 01:07:17.324 I always remind one of the, one of the former directors of fisheries 01:07:17.324 --> 01:07:19.785 that fish is a four letter word, but it's been interesting. 01:07:20.202 --> 01:07:23.622 It's been interesting learning about the fish factions 01:07:23.706 --> 01:07:28.044 because I was never really that exposed to all the politics there. 01:07:28.335 --> 01:07:30.713 But there is a lot of baggage 01:07:30.713 --> 01:07:33.674 in that world, you know, same as hunting and how people. 01:07:33.674 --> 01:07:36.761 But yeah, the reality is like we need fish in the river first 01:07:36.761 --> 01:07:40.723 before anybody can argue about how many barbs the hook has. 01:07:40.723 --> 01:07:44.477 And you know how long your leader is, We have to have fish in the river, 01:07:44.477 --> 01:07:46.896 so we should all be on the same page as that. 01:07:47.229 --> 01:07:50.483 And the other piece under that is the more fish there are in the river, 01:07:50.858 --> 01:07:52.902 the more opportunity there is for everyone. 01:07:52.902 --> 01:07:54.153 Right? And so, like 01:07:54.153 --> 01:07:57.698 even when we talk about skeena steelhead, which is a hot issue, right? 01:07:58.282 --> 01:08:02.953 Do you all want to fight over who gets to fish when there's 5000 fish in the river? 01:08:02.953 --> 01:08:04.497 Or do you want to go, You know what? 01:08:04.497 --> 01:08:08.375 If there were 30,000 fish every year, I'd be okay with having people 01:08:08.375 --> 01:08:12.755 out using gear or the occasional angler eating a steelhead. 01:08:12.755 --> 01:08:14.173 I would probably be okay with that 01:08:14.173 --> 01:08:18.344 because having 30,000 fish in the river and having more people on the river is way 01:08:18.344 --> 01:08:21.764 better than having 5000 fish in the river and nobody out fishing. 01:08:22.348 --> 01:08:26.227 You know who's really passionate about that and who's been doing a lot of work? 01:08:26.227 --> 01:08:30.731 When you bring up the Skeena Brian Niska, and he's out of the Skeena Bay. 01:08:31.023 --> 01:08:35.111 lodge there and man, he's involved at a bunch of different levels. He's 01:08:36.529 --> 01:08:37.655 doing a heck of a lot of work. 01:08:37.655 --> 01:08:38.739 But people would say, 01:08:38.739 --> 01:08:43.119 well, he's got a vested interest right? because he's he's running this lodge over there 01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:44.286 Okay. Sure. 01:08:44.286 --> 01:08:46.664 I mean, like he's an angler first and foremost. Yeah. 01:08:47.206 --> 01:08:50.960 I think being able to leverage all of those who have vested interest as well. 01:08:50.960 --> 01:08:54.505 So if the federation is able to look via hub essentially for businesses, 01:08:54.880 --> 01:08:58.050 for the clubs, for the new individuals 01:08:58.050 --> 01:09:00.344 coming through and not necessarily be the 01:09:02.138 --> 01:09:04.431 the be all end all provider of all these things, 01:09:04.431 --> 01:09:07.268 but be able to connect them to those who do. sure. 01:09:07.601 --> 01:09:13.482 I see that as the the strongest way from from my perspective anyways to leverage 01:09:13.482 --> 01:09:18.362 those who have a maybe separate interest but the same northstar guiding them. Yep. 01:09:18.654 --> 01:09:21.240 And propel us a heck of a lot further. Yeah. Yeah. 01:09:21.240 --> 01:09:21.824 That makes sense. 01:09:21.824 --> 01:09:25.661 We are finding that with with a lot of the stewardship work that we're doing. 01:09:25.661 --> 01:09:26.287 We are. 01:09:26.287 --> 01:09:28.998 I feel like we're getting into a place where we're able to, 01:09:29.331 --> 01:09:33.043 especially with First Nations, where we're able to manage 01:09:33.043 --> 01:09:35.504 all of these relationships or build all these relationships 01:09:35.796 --> 01:09:39.425 that the province or government of Canada really is not capable. 01:09:39.425 --> 01:09:42.845 You know, their approach is lets sit down at a boardroom, 01:09:43.220 --> 01:09:46.807 you know, in a boardroom and figure out how to cut up this last piece of pie. 01:09:46.807 --> 01:09:50.102 Whereas our our approach is like, let's get out on the land, 01:09:50.102 --> 01:09:51.896 Let's figure out how to make things better. 01:09:51.896 --> 01:09:54.690 Let's go out, find some funding and do work on this together. 01:09:54.690 --> 01:09:56.358 And I think that's 01:09:56.358 --> 01:09:57.735 Yeah, your idea is a good one. 01:09:57.735 --> 01:09:58.402 And in terms of people 01:09:58.402 --> 01:10:00.863 with vested interests, I think we all have a vested interest. 01:10:01.739 --> 01:10:03.866 I do. We do. It doesn’t matter if we own a business or whatever. 01:10:04.116 --> 01:10:07.036 I think the I think the broader challenge 01:10:07.036 --> 01:10:10.539 is that everyone we all need to recognize that 01:10:10.789 --> 01:10:14.793 that there's people who do these activities different than we are. 01:10:15.336 --> 01:10:19.089 And what we should be really worried about is if those activities are sustainable. 01:10:19.548 --> 01:10:20.591 That's the first question. 01:10:20.591 --> 01:10:25.804 Like, I really you know, personally, I'm a I'm a fly angler 99. 01:10:25.804 --> 01:10:28.474 You know, when it's when it's in fresh water, like that's what we do. 01:10:28.807 --> 01:10:31.268 But I don't really care if somebody sits beside me 01:10:31.268 --> 01:10:33.854 with a worm in a bobber, it does not bother me at all. 01:10:34.146 --> 01:10:36.982 What I'm concerned about is that what they're doing is sustainable, 01:10:37.358 --> 01:10:39.985 that they're out enjoying themselves on the water, 01:10:39.985 --> 01:10:43.030 that they're teaching their kids good, you know, ethics 01:10:43.030 --> 01:10:46.533 and that and that they're, you know, good stewards for this activity. 01:10:46.533 --> 01:10:48.244 I really don't care what's on the end of their line. 01:10:48.244 --> 01:10:50.079 It doesn't bother me at all. I love that. 01:10:51.038 --> 01:10:54.124 Washington Now, I should probably fact check this or I'm 01:10:54.124 --> 01:10:55.292 sure one of the listeners 01:10:55.292 --> 01:10:58.837 viewers will take a look at fact check me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure 01:10:58.879 --> 01:11:01.090 I've had discussions with others about it in the past. 01:11:01.090 --> 01:11:03.092 And I think I think I've looked into it. 01:11:03.509 --> 01:11:06.345 But they've got a program where 01:11:06.887 --> 01:11:09.056 people who have been hunting for X number of years 01:11:09.723 --> 01:11:12.351 can essentially 01:11:12.351 --> 01:11:15.396 be a mentor or they might have to undergo 01:11:15.396 --> 01:11:18.399 some training or under do a bit of background checking. 01:11:18.399 --> 01:11:20.109 But There's an incentive for them 01:11:20.109 --> 01:11:21.443 if they're going to be giving up their time 01:11:21.443 --> 01:11:24.446 going out hunting and bring in somebody who's brand new to the sport 01:11:24.446 --> 01:11:25.197 who they don't know. 01:11:25.197 --> 01:11:29.868 And I guess that's another offensive word by some calling it a sport, even though 01:11:29.868 --> 01:11:34.873 our province either calls it sport right on their website in the provincial side. 01:11:35.332 --> 01:11:38.294 But if they're bringing somebody out into the activity of hunting, 01:11:39.253 --> 01:11:41.463 the incentive is, is the following year 01:11:41.463 --> 01:11:45.843 they get preferential odds on on drawing tags. 01:11:46.510 --> 01:11:48.220 Have you heard of that before? 01:11:48.220 --> 01:11:50.556 And is that something that you think would be 01:11:50.556 --> 01:11:53.976 effective or able to be implemented in, let's say, British Columbia? 01:11:53.976 --> 01:11:54.643 Yeah, Yeah. 01:11:54.643 --> 01:11:57.521 I think our yeah, when we talk about this business 01:11:57.646 --> 01:12:01.817 of one on one hunting I know Dylan does a little it's not hunting it's limited. 01:12:01.817 --> 01:12:02.860 I mean our challenge 01:12:02.860 --> 01:12:06.697 is around our wildlife act and guiding and illegal guiding and perceptions there. 01:12:06.697 --> 01:12:07.406 right. 01:12:07.406 --> 01:12:10.034 That's the big stumbling block. Right. 01:12:10.034 --> 01:12:13.454 But in terms of the mentorship, I mean, yeah, it makes sense. 01:12:13.454 --> 01:12:16.874 You brought up the limited entry hunting system and how that works. 01:12:16.874 --> 01:12:17.666 That's in review. 01:12:17.666 --> 01:12:19.626 And I know everybody's got their favorite system 01:12:19.626 --> 01:12:21.754 and not a lot of people necessarily like this one. 01:12:21.754 --> 01:12:24.340 So that's that's work that's going on right now. 01:12:25.716 --> 01:12:26.175 Yeah. 01:12:26.175 --> 01:12:27.009 I mean, it makes sense. 01:12:27.009 --> 01:12:30.512 Like really we're trying to get people who are inexperienced out there 01:12:30.512 --> 01:12:33.640 with people who are experienced and people who have the right kind of experience. 01:12:33.640 --> 01:12:33.891 Right? 01:12:33.891 --> 01:12:37.978 There's a, there are a whole- I'm you know, I'm very well aware that there are people 01:12:37.978 --> 01:12:42.191 who got taught bad habits who have continued to have those bad habits. 01:12:42.691 --> 01:12:44.109 And so we've got to make sure 01:12:44.109 --> 01:12:47.196 that there's quality control, I guess, in that process. 01:12:48.072 --> 01:12:49.531 But yeah, I'd be keen. 01:12:49.531 --> 01:12:52.910 Like Freshwater Fisheries Society also has the Learning to Fish program, right? 01:12:52.910 --> 01:12:56.330 And so you just you've got to do a bit of, you know, you got to follow these people 01:12:56.330 --> 01:12:58.791 through their life history to make sure they're sticking with it. 01:12:58.791 --> 01:13:00.209 That's the big that's the big 01:13:00.209 --> 01:13:03.712 trick is like we can introduce people to fishing one day of the year, 01:13:04.088 --> 01:13:05.923 but how do we, you know, 01:13:05.923 --> 01:13:08.342 are they staying with it And if they're not staying with it, 01:13:08.634 --> 01:13:10.719 what are the gaps there that we need to fill? 01:13:10.844 --> 01:13:11.345 Yeah. 01:13:11.428 --> 01:13:15.099 And I also I guess I must have just gapped on the whole guide outfitters 01:13:15.099 --> 01:13:18.143 sort of side of thing because that could be putting 01:13:18.602 --> 01:13:21.188 the way our laws are currently written and could be put in. 01:13:22.064 --> 01:13:24.358 It's the compensation piece that's where it gets tricky. 01:13:24.358 --> 01:13:25.150 Right- like.. Right. 01:13:25.150 --> 01:13:29.279 If there's any kind of money involved, that's where it gets tricky. 01:13:29.279 --> 01:13:32.741 So so those are some of the challenges that we have that are not 01:13:32.741 --> 01:13:35.869 necessarily shared in other jurisdictions or. 01:13:35.869 --> 01:13:36.453 Are a bit different. 01:13:36.453 --> 01:13:39.998 But I mean, I think the concept of incentivizing people 01:13:39.998 --> 01:13:44.002 with a lot of experience to take new people out I think is phenomenal. 01:13:44.044 --> 01:13:44.420 Right. 01:13:44.420 --> 01:13:47.381 I think that's that's the that's the way we want to do it for sure. 01:13:47.673 --> 01:13:51.135 So you did your master's thesis on something that 01:13:52.302 --> 01:13:53.887 essentially what what is it? 01:13:53.887 --> 01:13:56.140 It was on paying of... Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 01:13:56.140 --> 01:13:57.891 I think it's called 01:13:57.933 --> 01:14:00.811 resident Hunters preferences and willingness to pay for moose management. 01:14:00.811 --> 01:14:04.356 So essentially what we're trying to look at is like, what do you want to see 01:14:04.356 --> 01:14:07.526 in moose populations, how often do you want to go hunting? 01:14:07.526 --> 01:14:10.571 What kind of governance of wildlife management you want to see? 01:14:10.904 --> 01:14:14.116 How much of your license fees do you want dedicated to the resource? 01:14:14.408 --> 01:14:17.369 And then the last piece was how much are you willing to pay essentially? 01:14:17.369 --> 01:14:20.205 So it's like, you know, how do you want to see moose hunting? 01:14:20.205 --> 01:14:22.332 How do you want to see moose managed, governed? 01:14:22.541 --> 01:14:24.710 And then how much are you willing to pay for that? 01:14:25.085 --> 01:14:28.046 And yeah, that's that's essentially it. 01:14:28.088 --> 01:14:29.798 There's a whole bunch more. 01:14:29.798 --> 01:14:32.468 But that's, you know, 60 pages in 30 seconds. 01:14:32.634 --> 01:14:34.428 So what did you find out? What do people want? 01:14:34.428 --> 01:14:35.721 Yeah, Yeah, we Found out. 01:14:35.721 --> 01:14:38.724 I mean, essentially they want to see Moose restored, right? 01:14:38.724 --> 01:14:40.601 So in British Columbia, we've gone from, 01:14:40.601 --> 01:14:44.563 you know, in the eighties, peaked over 13,000 moose a year being harvested. 01:14:44.563 --> 01:14:47.983 We're now now are probably down below 4000. Wow. 01:14:48.692 --> 01:14:50.068 So moose have declined. 01:14:50.068 --> 01:14:53.155 What we've seen is people want more moose on the landscape. 01:14:53.530 --> 01:14:57.743 They want to be able to hunt more often than harvest. 01:14:57.743 --> 01:14:59.369 Right. Because there's a tradeoff there. 01:14:59.369 --> 01:15:02.581 If we have, let's say, 100 moose 01:15:02.581 --> 01:15:06.460 available in an area we could let you know, 01:15:06.460 --> 01:15:10.714 100 people go hunting every single year and harvest each of those hundred moose. 01:15:11.173 --> 01:15:13.759 Or we could let a thousand people go hunting, but 01:15:13.759 --> 01:15:17.679 only, you know, harvest like a 10% success rate. 01:15:17.679 --> 01:15:18.639 Right. Right. 01:15:18.639 --> 01:15:22.351 So we can we can essentially we can let people go hunting more often 01:15:22.601 --> 01:15:26.021 with a lower success rate or less often with a higher success rate. 01:15:26.021 --> 01:15:28.565 And so that was one of the questions is like which end of the spectrum? 01:15:28.565 --> 01:15:31.944 So people wanted to definitely wanted to go hunting more often, right? 01:15:32.152 --> 01:15:32.945 That's what they said. 01:15:32.945 --> 01:15:34.363 That's what they said, right. 01:15:34.363 --> 01:15:38.951 So, you know, part of the message there is contrary to the anti-hunting 01:15:38.951 --> 01:15:41.745 narrative, it's not about just about killing an animal. 01:15:42.162 --> 01:15:42.579 Right. Right. 01:15:42.579 --> 01:15:45.082 When people are saying, I want to go hunting more, 01:15:45.082 --> 01:15:47.668 even though I know that I am not going to harvest 01:15:47.668 --> 01:15:51.296 and moose are my chance to harvest moose go down, that means that there's 01:15:51.296 --> 01:15:54.591 other factors associated with hunting that are also really important 01:15:55.425 --> 01:15:58.178 are the license fee, proportional license fee. 01:15:58.178 --> 01:15:59.596 20% of your hunting license 01:15:59.596 --> 01:16:03.684 currently goes to the Habitat Conservation Trust Foundation as a surcharge. 01:16:03.684 --> 01:16:07.563 People, you know, by and large want 100% of their license dedicated 01:16:07.854 --> 01:16:10.274 and they're willing to pay more for that as well. 01:16:10.566 --> 01:16:12.359 If it's dedicated. 01:16:12.359 --> 01:16:14.444 We gave them alternative governance mechanisms. 01:16:14.444 --> 01:16:17.281 So right now, basically things go through cabinet. 01:16:17.281 --> 01:16:20.742 Essentially there's some delegation, but politicians essentially 01:16:20.742 --> 01:16:23.161 make the decision around wildlife management. 01:16:23.745 --> 01:16:25.539 People don't like that. Sure. 01:16:25.539 --> 01:16:28.667 Yeah, they would prefer to see like in the States, they have a game commission 01:16:28.667 --> 01:16:31.837 which is essentially like hunters and anglers who are part of a board 01:16:31.837 --> 01:16:34.506 that make a recommendation and typically to an elected official 01:16:34.881 --> 01:16:38.594 they would way more prefer that and they're willing to pay way more for that. 01:16:38.594 --> 01:16:42.848 Or even we said a nuance piece realated to UNDRIP 01:16:42.848 --> 01:16:46.727 and DRIPA which was a multi government multi-stakeholder commission. 01:16:46.727 --> 01:16:49.354 So that would be like having the provincial government, 01:16:49.354 --> 01:16:52.149 first Nations government and then stakeholders on a commission 01:16:52.566 --> 01:16:55.611 and people overall were willing to pay more. 01:16:55.652 --> 01:16:57.279 There's definitely people that were opposed to it. 01:16:57.279 --> 01:17:01.491 But yeah, what the research showed is, is people are willing to pay 01:17:01.491 --> 01:17:03.076 like a current moose license 01:17:03.076 --> 01:17:06.663 fee for like, you get a LEH and buy your tag, it's 25 bucks. 01:17:06.913 --> 01:17:09.625 People are willing to spend like literally hundreds of dollars. 01:17:09.625 --> 01:17:13.879 If we were able to change the way we manage Moose. Wow. 01:17:13.879 --> 01:17:15.255 Yeah. Yeah. 01:17:15.255 --> 01:17:19.426 Was that a bit surprising to you that the magnitude was surprising? 01:17:19.509 --> 01:17:20.218 Yeah, sure. 01:17:20.218 --> 01:17:20.802 Yeah. 01:17:20.802 --> 01:17:21.136 Yeah. 01:17:21.136 --> 01:17:22.012 Like, I think if we 01:17:22.012 --> 01:17:26.183 if we dedicated license fees, it went to, like 120 something dollars. 01:17:26.183 --> 01:17:28.393 I don't have it right at the tip of my finger. sure 01:17:28.435 --> 01:17:33.357 like I think it was $14 for each a thousand moose additional available 01:17:33.357 --> 01:17:36.860 so like so like we're talking you know if people got the world 01:17:36.860 --> 01:17:39.738 their way like a couple of hundred dollars for a moose tag. 01:17:40.197 --> 01:17:40.697 Right. 01:17:40.697 --> 01:17:45.494 Which huge because in the world of North America at least 01:17:46.036 --> 01:17:50.332 people and especially are this demographic kind of like the older demographic 01:17:50.624 --> 01:17:54.378 they do not like government and they do not like paying taxes. 01:17:54.711 --> 01:17:57.339 Right. I could get onside with that. Right. 01:17:57.839 --> 01:17:58.423 Right. 01:17:58.674 --> 01:18:00.133 So those are two things they hate. 01:18:00.133 --> 01:18:03.804 But in this case, we're we have a compelling case to say. 01:18:04.054 --> 01:18:07.182 There are some people that want to pay more tax if you do this. 01:18:07.182 --> 01:18:08.850 That's highly unusual. 01:18:08.850 --> 01:18:13.063 And I know even when you talk to the folks in the states about, Pitman Robertson, 01:18:13.063 --> 01:18:17.651 like their excise tax, you know, again, similar approach to government in tax. 01:18:17.651 --> 01:18:20.654 But if you went to and said, you know, we're going to make your firearms 01:18:20.654 --> 01:18:22.906 13% cheaper because we're going to get rid of that 01:18:22.906 --> 01:18:27.494 Pitman Robertson they're going to say no way, because there is of close 01:18:27.494 --> 01:18:31.164 to $1,000,000,000 that goes into Fish and Wildlife every single year as result. 01:18:31.164 --> 01:18:35.168 So that was one of the really cool breakthroughs, is that there 01:18:35.168 --> 01:18:38.588 there is a place and a space for people paying more tax, 01:18:38.964 --> 01:18:42.217 but they want their money to be dedicated to the resource. 01:18:42.217 --> 01:18:44.136 They want the resource to be increased. 01:18:44.136 --> 01:18:46.805 And that's a really compelling story because politicians never hear that. 01:18:46.805 --> 01:18:48.765 Nobody ever walks into a minister's office 01:18:48.765 --> 01:18:52.352 and says, We're our industry is willing to pay more tax. 01:18:52.561 --> 01:18:55.355 Nobody does that and we want to know how it's being spent. 01:18:55.480 --> 01:18:59.443 Yeah, and I think most people don't really mind the taxes if they can see 01:18:59.901 --> 01:19:04.364 proper allocation of those funds in a way that's that makes business sense. 01:19:04.406 --> 01:19:04.823 Right? 01:19:04.823 --> 01:19:06.742 Not that it'll just balance itself. 01:19:06.742 --> 01:19:08.827 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. 01:19:08.827 --> 01:19:09.995 But it's a really compelling story 01:19:09.995 --> 01:19:13.915 because minister, like, governments never hear of that. 01:19:13.915 --> 01:19:18.253 No, nobody ever, like, no advocate or a lobbyist shows up in Victoria and goes, 01:19:18.545 --> 01:19:19.296 We're here 01:19:19.296 --> 01:19:22.841 because we want to give you a pitch to spend more money on, 01:19:23.300 --> 01:19:25.218 you know, essentially taking care of wildlife. 01:19:25.218 --> 01:19:26.928 It doesn't happen. So it was really cool. 01:19:26.928 --> 01:19:29.139 Yeah, that was pretty cool. Very interesting. 01:19:29.139 --> 01:19:31.099 So it's just a matter of turning that 01:19:31.099 --> 01:19:34.394 into policy now to actually get the rubber to hit the road. 01:19:34.895 --> 01:19:38.231 You know, on the political side, you brought up Grizzly Bear. 01:19:38.231 --> 01:19:42.444 I think it was 2017 NDP government of BC's came in says, 01:19:42.444 --> 01:19:45.447 okay, we're going to get rid of grizzly bear hunting. 01:19:45.489 --> 01:19:48.116 it was enacted sometime in 2018. 01:19:48.116 --> 01:19:50.160 I think, if I'm not mistaken. 01:19:51.912 --> 01:19:54.122 And I think the there was 01:19:54.706 --> 01:19:57.125 some very poorly timed social media 01:19:58.001 --> 01:20:01.755 exposure or some hunters posting pictures of grizzly bears. 01:20:01.755 --> 01:20:03.715 I didn't see them all. 01:20:03.715 --> 01:20:04.800 I heard about some of them. 01:20:04.800 --> 01:20:08.386 I saw some. 01:20:08.386 --> 01:20:12.516 How much do you feel that that social media aspect played a role 01:20:12.516 --> 01:20:16.269 in the decision of putting the ban on grizzly bear hunting? 01:20:16.603 --> 01:20:17.562 Yeah, for sure. 01:20:17.562 --> 01:20:22.150 I mean, you the the world of anti-hunting or anti, 01:20:22.275 --> 01:20:25.111 like the people who are opposed, they're going to use everything they can. 01:20:25.195 --> 01:20:26.530 Sure. Right. 01:20:26.530 --> 01:20:30.909 We've learned that one of the, you know, kind of rabid anti hunters. 01:20:30.909 --> 01:20:33.036 So one of those videos was from Alaska. 01:20:33.036 --> 01:20:36.706 And I actually got offered like a substantial amount of money 01:20:36.706 --> 01:20:40.210 to find out the name and to cough that name up to the anti hunters. 01:20:40.210 --> 01:20:40.460 Right. 01:20:40.460 --> 01:20:46.716 So so they are using social media to make hunting look bad. 01:20:46.716 --> 01:20:48.009 That's what they're going to do. 01:20:48.009 --> 01:20:49.928 Right. So, again, I think there's a lot of learning. 01:20:49.928 --> 01:20:53.723 I mean, I have seen things shift, at least on the social media 01:20:53.723 --> 01:20:58.436 that I monitor and check out where people are starting to tell the story 01:20:58.436 --> 01:21:02.691 and starting to tell more about hunting rather than just a kill shot. 01:21:02.691 --> 01:21:03.817 So the answer is yes. 01:21:03.817 --> 01:21:06.111 It plays a huge role because it makes headlines, right? 01:21:06.570 --> 01:21:12.200 Like, especially in this world where media now is being decentralized and people 01:21:12.200 --> 01:21:17.038 are doing research on social media as opposed to like legitimate sources, 01:21:18.248 --> 01:21:19.749 it you know, 01:21:19.749 --> 01:21:23.712 hunters have the ability to undo the social support that hunting has. 01:21:23.712 --> 01:21:26.506 But on the flipside, right, like let's just say, 01:21:26.882 --> 01:21:29.551 you know, on your social media account, let's just say, for example, 01:21:29.551 --> 01:21:32.721 the average person has 500 people on their Facebook. 01:21:33.054 --> 01:21:37.142 You also have the ability to influence all of those people, right? 01:21:37.559 --> 01:21:41.980 So if we have 110,000 hunting, like we have the ability to impact 01:21:41.980 --> 01:21:46.568 nearly like the whole province of B.C through our social media, 01:21:46.985 --> 01:21:50.196 if we do it properly, right, if we tell the whole story 01:21:50.196 --> 01:21:53.533 and we talk about why we do it and the values that we put into it. 01:21:53.533 --> 01:21:56.411 So it's a double edged sword and I would just say, you know, in your 01:21:56.620 --> 01:21:59.080 before you put a post out, just think about, you know, 01:21:59.080 --> 01:22:02.083 what is the how is a non hunter going to react to this, Right. 01:22:02.083 --> 01:22:03.668 And how do we sell them on hunting? 01:22:03.668 --> 01:22:06.922 We don't need everybody to become hunters, but we need everybody 01:22:06.922 --> 01:22:10.091 to like hunting to be okay with hunting, to support hunters. 01:22:10.634 --> 01:22:11.426 And that's interesting. 01:22:11.426 --> 01:22:15.805 You said one of the videos that they're offering money for was a fellow in Alaska, 01:22:15.805 --> 01:22:16.806 you said, Yeah. 01:22:16.806 --> 01:22:19.309 So it's funny 01:22:19.309 --> 01:22:22.270 how ideas funny, maybe not the right term. 01:22:22.562 --> 01:22:26.524 Interesting how ideas can spread and policies can spread 01:22:26.524 --> 01:22:31.404 and the policy becomes regulation and then becomes legislation. 01:22:31.404 --> 01:22:35.200 And it just because people look to the left and their right and they'll say, 01:22:35.742 --> 01:22:36.534 well, that's how my 01:22:38.203 --> 01:22:39.287 my counterpart over the 01:22:39.287 --> 01:22:41.623 next province or the next state is doing things. 01:22:42.499 --> 01:22:45.877 And how important it is for people to 01:22:47.212 --> 01:22:49.965 to ensure that they're being vocal and they're talking to their MLA’s 01:22:49.965 --> 01:22:51.967 and their MP’s so that that doesn't happen. 01:22:51.967 --> 01:22:55.512 And, you know, I look at a gun range over in 01:22:56.638 --> 01:23:00.725 in New Brunswick, and they won a court ruling. 01:23:01.977 --> 01:23:04.354 Essentially, they took their chief firearms officer 01:23:04.729 --> 01:23:06.856 to task for 01:23:07.565 --> 01:23:10.193 overstepping their boundaries and placing 01:23:10.193 --> 01:23:12.988 renewal conditions on the on their range, 01:23:12.988 --> 01:23:15.782 which they had no authority to do So. 01:23:16.366 --> 01:23:19.786 And I went to court and their CFO said, well, 01:23:19.786 --> 01:23:22.914 I'm just doing that because that's how the Nova Scotia CFO does it. 01:23:23.707 --> 01:23:25.458 Well Neither one has the authority to do it. 01:23:25.458 --> 01:23:28.420 But Nova Scotia has never stood up and said anything right. So 01:23:29.587 --> 01:23:31.256 I can see that changing, though. 01:23:31.256 --> 01:23:34.676 Yeah, I'm it. 01:23:35.010 --> 01:23:39.139 It just, you know, these things bleed and they will bleed over 01:23:39.305 --> 01:23:40.765 both positive and negative. 01:23:40.765 --> 01:23:43.810 So if you see something negative happening next door, don't think, 01:23:43.810 --> 01:23:44.853 hey, it can happen to you. 01:23:44.853 --> 01:23:46.688 You can help reverse this decision for them. 01:23:46.688 --> 01:23:48.440 Yeah, I know the states are looking to Canada 01:23:48.440 --> 01:23:51.443 on a lot of different issues and they're trying to say, Well, 01:23:51.484 --> 01:23:53.194 that's kind of where we want to go too. 01:23:53.194 --> 01:23:56.031 If it's their political, they're politically motivated. 01:23:56.031 --> 01:23:56.740 Yeah, yeah. 01:23:56.740 --> 01:24:00.410 I think like C 21 is a prime example because I did hear that as well. 01:24:00.410 --> 01:24:03.371 It's just it's just quote unquote assault rifles, right? 01:24:03.371 --> 01:24:04.372 Why should I care? 01:24:04.372 --> 01:24:07.667 And it's like, well, here are all the reasons why 01:24:08.251 --> 01:24:11.504 In terms of the grizzly bear stuff, too, when you think about the advocacy 01:24:11.504 --> 01:24:14.591 on the anti hunting, I mean, they used they used 01:24:14.591 --> 01:24:17.844 what hunters were putting out on social media against them. 01:24:18.261 --> 01:24:20.138 Right? So that was a big part of it. 01:24:20.138 --> 01:24:21.264 And the other piece 01:24:22.390 --> 01:24:24.726 you know I Will give 01:24:24.809 --> 01:24:27.187 so Rain Coats was one of the big drivers. 01:24:27.312 --> 01:24:31.066 I remember that they were they were successful in that approach 01:24:31.066 --> 01:24:34.027 in the sense that they are not really lobbyists. 01:24:34.360 --> 01:24:39.574 That was a public campaign, that was not a government relations PR campaign. 01:24:39.574 --> 01:24:40.867 That was a public campaign. 01:24:40.867 --> 01:24:45.330 So what that what that should tell us is that talking to the public, 01:24:45.330 --> 01:24:49.417 talking to our neighbors, coworkers, friends and family who don't hunt and fish 01:24:49.417 --> 01:24:50.877 is really important. 01:24:50.877 --> 01:24:51.878 Mhm. Right. 01:24:51.878 --> 01:24:54.047 That's the missing piece is- great point. 01:24:54.214 --> 01:24:57.884 You know if you're a hunter you know, pardon the words 01:24:57.884 --> 01:24:59.761 but you got to come out of the closet on it 01:24:59.761 --> 01:25:02.889 and you have to talk about it and you got to engage non hunters. 01:25:02.889 --> 01:25:04.390 They are way more. 01:25:04.390 --> 01:25:06.559 And again this comes back to the online world. 01:25:06.893 --> 01:25:12.065 Talking to somebody online gives you no... it does nothing for the activity right. 01:25:12.065 --> 01:25:15.693 Trashing somebody or getting in a fight on a hunting forum with somebody else. 01:25:16.069 --> 01:25:19.030 This does not change the outcome. Talking to your neighbors 01:25:19.030 --> 01:25:23.201 or taking some venison or inviting them over for dinner is huge. 01:25:23.201 --> 01:25:23.535 Right? 01:25:23.535 --> 01:25:26.412 That is how you you start the conversation. 01:25:26.412 --> 01:25:28.790 That is how you get sort of social support for hunting 01:25:28.790 --> 01:25:30.166 I mean, it's the same. It's really interesting. 01:25:30.166 --> 01:25:31.751 So like, even with gardening 01:25:31.751 --> 01:25:35.505 Right, if people have a garden, you know, because they're going to bring you over 01:25:35.630 --> 01:25:38.716 veggies, you're gunna invite them over for dinner and be like, what can we bring? 01:25:39.008 --> 01:25:40.635 We just got this out of the garden. 01:25:40.635 --> 01:25:44.097 Nobody's like, Hey, I just got a great head of lettuce from save on. 01:25:44.097 --> 01:25:46.057 Can I bring it over for dinner next week? 01:25:46.057 --> 01:25:49.060 totally. So it's entirely relatable. 01:25:49.060 --> 01:25:52.772 And all that shows you is that you have like as an individual, 01:25:52.772 --> 01:25:55.817 you have the ability to influence people who don't hunt and fish, 01:25:56.234 --> 01:25:59.154 and there are some really easy ways to do it. 01:25:59.154 --> 01:26:01.489 And part of it is just talking to people about it. 01:26:03.074 --> 01:26:03.908 I like that. 01:26:03.908 --> 01:26:07.912 If I didn't have two more questions, that would be a great way to wrap things up. 01:26:08.913 --> 01:26:13.835 The only other two that I was looking at I know Chad Day of the Tell ten Group 01:26:13.835 --> 01:26:18.756 has put a bounty on grizzly bears because they're their internal research 01:26:18.756 --> 01:26:22.969 and data is saying that they need to be managed and not just left to roam. 01:26:23.178 --> 01:26:27.765 Do you see the grizzly bear ban reversing? 01:26:27.974 --> 01:26:29.809 Yeah, you know what I do? 01:26:29.809 --> 01:26:34.731 What I see is there are a number of first nations across the province, 01:26:34.731 --> 01:26:38.526 like, you know, part of the narrative around this grizzly bear hunt was first 01:26:38.526 --> 01:26:42.614 nations are opposed grizzly bear hunting and and some first nations are. 01:26:43.031 --> 01:26:45.533 But I would say in the interior the majority are not. 01:26:45.533 --> 01:26:50.163 And so there is you know, in terms of like with Chad's approach, 01:26:50.455 --> 01:26:53.208 Chad is very interested in getting a licensed grizzly bear hunt. 01:26:53.249 --> 01:26:56.252 There are a number of other nations who also are very interested. 01:26:56.252 --> 01:27:01.382 So so as we build relationships with nations and trust with nations, 01:27:01.674 --> 01:27:04.510 I think the discussion I mean, the discussions are already live, 01:27:04.510 --> 01:27:09.641 but I think the discussion will will grow in terms of concerns 01:27:09.641 --> 01:27:13.311 around the number of grizzly bears and how grizzly bears are acting 01:27:13.311 --> 01:27:16.564 like from a kind of a behavioral creating problem. 01:27:16.564 --> 01:27:20.985 So so the answer is I can see a time where grizzly bear hunting comes back, 01:27:22.028 --> 01:27:23.071 you know, in terms of 01:27:23.071 --> 01:27:26.157 the way our world works, it'll it'll probably be different. 01:27:27.033 --> 01:27:29.035 But yeah, there's definitely a lot 01:27:30.036 --> 01:27:34.165 impetus from a number of nations to get grizzly bear hunting back 01:27:34.874 --> 01:27:37.168 because like Chad’ll say too, like, you know, 01:27:37.168 --> 01:27:40.213 they're not harvesting the number of bears that they want to harvest. 01:27:40.296 --> 01:27:42.423 Mm hmm. 01:27:43.466 --> 01:27:44.676 There's a lot to unpack there. 01:27:44.676 --> 01:27:47.637 I can read between the lines, but I think that might be for a future podcast 01:27:47.679 --> 01:27:48.554 as well. Yeah, it's. 01:27:48.554 --> 01:27:49.138 And again, 01:27:49.138 --> 01:27:50.640 it comes back to this relationship 01:27:50.640 --> 01:27:53.059 business like we were talking about, like there are, you know, 01:27:53.351 --> 01:27:56.354 there are going to be nations who we can work 01:27:56.354 --> 01:27:59.440 well with and build relationships and synchronize well with. 01:27:59.440 --> 01:28:01.150 And we're not going to agree on everything. 01:28:01.150 --> 01:28:02.902 There is no doubt about it. 01:28:02.902 --> 01:28:06.030 But the things that we agree on, we need to work on together, right? 01:28:06.072 --> 01:28:07.031 For sure. 01:28:07.448 --> 01:28:08.116 I guess. 01:28:08.116 --> 01:28:12.787 See, the last one that came up and I have zero information on it 01:28:12.787 --> 01:28:15.873 and it just came up in Google when I put your name up in it directly 01:28:15.915 --> 01:28:18.126 to a Facebook page, and then I had to search 01:28:18.126 --> 01:28:20.461 through a bunch of stuff to find it and I couldn't find I gave up. 01:28:20.461 --> 01:28:24.590 But essentially the Google title came up was about talking 01:28:24.590 --> 01:28:28.928 about black bear hunting and looking like it was going to go the way of grizzly. 01:28:28.970 --> 01:28:32.390 Have you heard anything on that or any efforts to try and do that? 01:28:32.515 --> 01:28:37.562 You know, so the world of anti-hunting will use the things that are easy, right? 01:28:37.770 --> 01:28:39.522 Not they're not going to well, they're not going to go after 01:28:39.522 --> 01:28:43.318 deer hunting like there's, you know, it's like this where all the firearms. 01:28:43.318 --> 01:28:43.901 Right. 01:28:44.152 --> 01:28:48.406 The public is not going to be supportive of people who just shoot. 01:28:48.698 --> 01:28:51.617 But the public, by and large, is supportive of hunting. 01:28:51.617 --> 01:28:54.120 Right. And so there's shades of gray and hunting. 01:28:54.370 --> 01:28:56.456 There's people who hunt grizzly bears. 01:28:56.748 --> 01:28:59.876 There's calling wolves aerially. 01:29:00.126 --> 01:29:03.755 And on the other side, that spectrum there is waterfowl hunting 01:29:04.047 --> 01:29:06.966 and there is deer hunting and there is grouse hunting. 01:29:07.342 --> 01:29:10.720 And so the people who are opposed to hunting are 01:29:10.720 --> 01:29:14.682 always going to pick these ones that result in a negative reaction. 01:29:15.058 --> 01:29:19.103 So I would say, you know, black bear hunting is probably part of it. 01:29:20.021 --> 01:29:21.939 Trapping is definitely on that list. 01:29:21.939 --> 01:29:24.192 100%, like trapping is going to come to the top. 01:29:24.192 --> 01:29:26.486 The wolf call comes to the top, right? 01:29:26.986 --> 01:29:30.281 So and there's going to be a growing narrative that, you know, hunters like 01:29:30.615 --> 01:29:34.535 are feeding their egos or that they don't eat what they kill. 01:29:34.535 --> 01:29:34.911 Right. 01:29:34.911 --> 01:29:39.165 And so, like, cougar hunting is another easy one for anti-hunting, right? 01:29:39.165 --> 01:29:41.542 So like essentially anything that's a predator, 01:29:41.834 --> 01:29:46.422 anything that is not not considered normal or where 01:29:46.422 --> 01:29:49.008 there's a whole bunch of hunters that do it, that's those are the easy 01:29:49.008 --> 01:29:49.926 those are all low hanging 01:29:49.926 --> 01:29:52.720 fruit trapping is the low hanging fruit for anti- hunters, too. 01:29:53.179 --> 01:29:53.513 Right. 01:29:53.513 --> 01:29:55.807 That's why they pick it, because this is on the fringe. 01:29:55.807 --> 01:29:59.310 Like these are activities that we know the public is not going to react well to. 01:29:59.310 --> 01:30:01.729 So those are the ones we're going to pick. camel in the tent. 01:30:01.896 --> 01:30:04.273 Hey. Yeah, Camel in the tent. Yeah, please, sir. 01:30:04.273 --> 01:30:06.901 So cold out. Can I just put my foot in? Well I guess if you put your foot in.. 01:30:07.026 --> 01:30:08.444 Can I put my leg in? Yeah. 01:30:08.444 --> 01:30:11.239 Next thing you know, you're sleeping outside and the Camels inside. Yes. 01:30:11.489 --> 01:30:13.366 Yeah. And I mean, successful approach. Yeah. 01:30:13.366 --> 01:30:16.911 And these groups go after the conservation officer service all the time as well. 01:30:16.953 --> 01:30:17.286 Right. 01:30:17.286 --> 01:30:22.959 So, so a lot of that again is just, you know, there's a very, very few of them. 01:30:23.209 --> 01:30:25.837 They're not, they don't, they don't get a lot of traction. 01:30:25.837 --> 01:30:29.465 But don't, don't, don't feed don't feed them. 01:30:29.465 --> 01:30:31.717 You don't feed the anti hunters. Right. 01:30:31.717 --> 01:30:35.555 And again, like this is where we can engage all of these people 01:30:35.555 --> 01:30:38.224 that we know inside of our networks who don't hunt and fish. 01:30:38.766 --> 01:30:39.142 Right. 01:30:39.142 --> 01:30:43.146 That's part of this newer position at the BCWF is developed, is 01:30:43.229 --> 01:30:47.024 I want our fishing game clubs to be recognized 01:30:47.024 --> 01:30:50.445 by their communities, by their city council, 01:30:50.778 --> 01:30:54.490 by their MLA and by their MP as stewards of the environment. 01:30:54.490 --> 01:30:57.660 Like I want everyone to know who lives in 01:30:57.910 --> 01:31:01.330 Prince George at the Spruce City, Wildlife is the place to go. 01:31:01.330 --> 01:31:04.167 If you have a question about grizzly bear hunting or black bear hunting 01:31:04.417 --> 01:31:08.880 or restoring fish populations in the Fraser than Jack River like those, 01:31:09.130 --> 01:31:09.881 that's the hub. 01:31:09.881 --> 01:31:13.634 I want our people to be a source of information, right? 01:31:13.634 --> 01:31:17.054 Because then it minimizes all of this stuff, all of the fringe stuff. 01:31:17.722 --> 01:31:20.016 They suddenly become persona non grata. 01:31:20.016 --> 01:31:22.894 They are not the place where we go to get information, right? 01:31:23.311 --> 01:31:25.146 So if we have these clubs and these membership 01:31:25.146 --> 01:31:28.316 that are trusted, that have a day at the range, that 01:31:28.316 --> 01:31:32.487 have a clean up day in the bush, that have a conservation project use, 01:31:32.528 --> 01:31:36.282 you become the person or the group for conservation 01:31:36.491 --> 01:31:39.285 and that's who you know, that's who hunters and anglers are. 01:31:39.577 --> 01:31:43.206 I think we lost that a little bit and we got to work to get it back. 01:31:43.206 --> 01:31:47.001 But it's very doable. 01:31:47.001 --> 01:31:48.419 That's amazing. 01:31:48.419 --> 01:31:51.631 Is there and I'm looking at a clock conscious of time here. 01:31:51.631 --> 01:31:54.217 Is there anything else we should be covering before we wrap up? 01:31:55.218 --> 01:31:56.886 I we covered a lot. 01:31:56.886 --> 01:31:58.930 Yeah. Yeah, we covered a lot. Yeah. I don't know. 01:31:58.930 --> 01:31:59.597 I mean, there's 01:31:59.597 --> 01:32:02.975 I think yeah, there's a lot there's a lot to this world into this job. 01:32:02.975 --> 01:32:04.268 I mean, 01:32:04.852 --> 01:32:07.063 I feel like we've covered most of it. 01:32:07.104 --> 01:32:08.856 There's going to be questions that come up. Yeah. 01:32:08.856 --> 01:32:11.609 If you're game for another one in the future, we'll have to. 01:32:11.651 --> 01:32:13.486 There is one thing that you mentioned at the end, 01:32:13.486 --> 01:32:16.072 which is, like you say, if I look with read between the lines, 01:32:16.072 --> 01:32:18.157 I think there's a lot to unpack on that one. Yep. 01:32:18.157 --> 01:32:20.034 But we'll leave that for a different episode. 01:32:20.034 --> 01:32:20.826 Sure. 01:32:20.993 --> 01:32:23.829 Jesse, thank you so much for being here on the Silvercore podcast. 01:32:23.829 --> 01:32:25.581 Yeah, thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it