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Rupert Isaacson: Welcome
to Equine Assisted World.

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I'm your host, Rupert Isaacson,
New York Times best selling

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author of The Horse Boy, The Long
Ride Home, and The Healing Land.

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Before I jump in with today's
guest, I just want to say a huge

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thank you to you, our audience,
for helping to make this happen.

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I have a request.

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If you like what we do, please
like, subscribe, tell a friend.

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It really helps us get this work done.

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As you might know from my
books, I'm an autism dad.

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And over the last 20 years,
we've developed several

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equine assisted, neuroscience
backed certification programs.

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If you'd like to find out more
about them, go to newtrailslearning.

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com.

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So without further ado,
let's meet today's guest.

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Welcome back to Equine Assisted World.

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I've got a power duo with me today.

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I dunno where to go with
Mark first or Chrissy first.

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So I've got Mark Rashid, 'cause
he's that to that side of me.

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And I've got Chrissy McDonald,
who they're actually in the same

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house, but in separate rooms.

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And they do extremely interesting things
with both equine and human wellbeing

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that it's handy to be aware of if
you're going to be in these fields.

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So they're coming to us from Estes Park in
Colorado, which is just north of Boulder,

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near Rocky Mountain National Park.

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Lucky people.

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And they, like I say, do extraordinary
things, but I think they need to

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tell us these extraordinary things.

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So Mark and Chrissy, thank you
so very much for coming on.

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Would you please Yeah.

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Thank you.

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Introduce yourselves.

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Mark Rashid: This is awesome.

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Rupert Isaacson: Tell us what you do.

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Chrissy, ladies first, do
you wanna kick off first?

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Crissi McDonald: Sure.

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The short version is, is I'm a author,
a photographer, and a clinician.

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So I spend the majority of my time
teaching helping horses and people.

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Communicate more clearly.

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And mark and I teach primarily
about softness and softness

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as a internal attribute.

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Rather than thinking about soft hands
or soft whatever in your body, instead

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of it being external, we like to explore
what does it mean to be internally soft?

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So that's the majority of our work
and that is something we practice,

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whether we're teaching or not.

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And I will let Mark talk Now.

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Excuse the dog.

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Rupert Isaacson: That's
no waste to talk about.

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Your husband

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couldn't help it.

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Sorry.

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Mark Rashid: He wasn't talking yet, so
you, you get used to it after a while.

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It's okay.

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Yeah.

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You know, fatalism.

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Yeah, I mean I've been working
with horses cleaning up after 'em

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for sure since I was about 10.

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And I got really lucky in that the
person who I started learning from at

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a very early age was very focused on
the wellbeing of the horse regardless

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of what you were doing with it.

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And so that was my kind of
jumping off point from there.

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And I was I was pretty
shocked the first time.

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I saw somebody hitting a horse, and
because I had never seen that before.

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And so I, I had this foundation of
kindness if you will, when it came to

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horses, but also being effective in your
work with horses and being able to do,

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being able to be kind and, and effective.

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And and kindness isn't always just, you
know, kinda letting the horse do whatever,

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you know, there, there are boundaries
that need to be set and parameters but

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they can be done in such a way that
what to where the horse can understand

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what it is that you're, you're doing.

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And so that was my, that
was my jumping off point.

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And as I started going out and working
with horses on my own, I was I have to

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backtrack just a little bit and say that
Walter was the person's name who I, I

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worked with when I was a kid, and his
place, not just, not just the work that

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he did with horses, but his place in
general, when you walked onto his place,

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it was basically just him and I working
together and it had a certain feel to it.

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He had a certain feel to him, him and
and his place had a certain feel, and

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it was and so when I went out on my own,
there was a, I, I know now that what

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I was feeling was there was a kindness
and a humanity to what he was doing

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and who he was and how he did things.

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And, but I didn't know that then.

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And when I started to work on my own,
I tried to find a way to develop that

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feel and the work that I was doing
and the, with the horses and with

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the people that I was working with.

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And primarily I emulated what
I saw with him initially.

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And I couldn't actually develop the feel
that he, that I was, that permeated his,

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you know, working with him because I
didn't really know what I was looking for.

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So I was, I was sort of mechanically
going through the motions and and I,

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and I tried to when I, back in the
eighties, 1980s of the last century we,

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you know, there were a lot of clinicians
coming out in the early to mid 1980s.

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And not a lot, but, and, but some, and,
and, they were saying things that, that

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sounded a lot like what Walter would say.

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And so I would go see these people
and what they were saying sounded

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like what he was saying, but what they
were doing was not what he was doing.

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And it was very difficult
for me for a long time.

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But eventually it, it led
me into the world of martial

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arts Aikido in particular.

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And that's where I started to
see and feel what I had seen and

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felt with Walter back in the day.

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The internal aspect of what was going
on is funny because I, I found it,

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I didn't find it in the horse world.

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I found it in the martial arts world, and
then I was able to then cross over and,

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and bring it into my work with horses.

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And that's, and the work

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Rupert Isaacson: with horses that you
were doing was the This is Western.

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I'm, you know, presuming in

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Mark Rashid: no, it's
all, it's all where was

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Rupert Isaacson: this?

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Here in Colorado.

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Okay.

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And, but was it primarily starting
young horses or was it helping

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people across disciplines?

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Like were you a jumping
coach specifically?

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What were most pe what was your work
at that stage mostly predicated around?

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Mark Rashid: It was all disciplines.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Mark Rashid: Yeah.

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I mean, from driving, i've,
I've been a, a teamster for

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back since I was a, a young kid.

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We actually raised draft horses for,
for quite a while four or five years.

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We raised draft horses, started them.

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My great-great grandfather actually
brought the first Clydesdales

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into America from Scotland.

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So, yeah, so, so it's
pretty much any discipline.

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We work off of principles and so
rather than technique, technique

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is important, but we, if you work
with principles, then the principles

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can cross over into any discipline.

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Sure.

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Mark Rashid: And horses are
horses, so, you know, they're,

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it's not a mystery

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Rupert Isaacson: and yet it's
a great mystery, like people

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Mark Rashid: indeed.

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Right.

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Rupert Isaacson: I guess, I guess the
question though is, is usually depending

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on people's geo geographic location
and the culture that they come out of,

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they tend to gravitate more to one area
of the equine world than the other.

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I know that Colorado stands
at the crossroads, so you

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kind of get everything there.

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But you do have a, you know, a
very strong working ranch tradition

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there at the same time, up and down
the front ranges of the Rockies.

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You've got all of the equestrian,
FEI disciplines you expect to find

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and many other things as well.

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And it's very interesting that
you have the driving background.

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I want to, to, to return
to that in a minute.

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When your mentor Walter was working,
what was he primarily doing with horses?

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What, what were people
mostly coming to him for?

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And then when you went out
on your own, were you kind of

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setting out to do the same thing?

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Mark Rashid: People didn't
actually come to him.

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What he did was he went out
and bought horses whether

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from private sellers or sales.

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He bought, he would buy these horses.

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And then we basically worked with him.

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He actually had a stock
contractor buddy for rodeo.

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And so early on he would put me
on these horses and to see if they

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would buck good and if they buck

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Crissi McDonald: days before
helmets and release forms

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Mark Rashid: and, he, and if they buck
good, then he would sell 'em to this

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buddy of his who was a stock contractor.

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And then if they didn't buck
good, then we worked with them.

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And and basically that's what it was.

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It was just him and I most of the time.

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And we, you know, so if, if he was
talking, I figured he was talking to me.

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And if I was talking, I guess
he figured I was talking to him.

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But but that's basically what it was.

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And he would buy and sell.

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You know, some folks might say these days
that he was, that he rescued horses, but

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I don't believe that's how he saw it.

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You know, it was just a way
for him to make a living.

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He'd, he was an old hard scrabble
rancher and, you know, making a living

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with horses, and that's what he did.

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Rupert Isaacson: And was he, when he
was effectively rehabbing these horses

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as they came in, were they going out to
all disciplines or were they primarily

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going out to the ranching world?

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What, what were they in
general, being prepared to do?

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I don't

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Mark Rashid: know.

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Remember, I, I was, I was
pretty young at the time.

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Rupert Isaacson: Mm-hmm.

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Mark Rashid: So people, but it wasn't, for

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Rupert Isaacson: example, having
you work over poles and cavalletti

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to turn them into jumping horses,

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Mark Rashid: or It would be, it would
be branches and down trees and, you

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know, it wasn't, it wasn't anything.

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Official, if you wanna call
that, and you'd be using

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Rupert Isaacson: Western and
English tack for this, you'd be

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Mark Rashid: mostly Western.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Mark Rashid: In fact, all, all,
it was either Western or bareback.

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Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

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Yep.

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But then from there, the horse
could go out to any type of Yeah.

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Home.

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Got it.

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Mm-hmm.

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Mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: And if you would
say, apart from his internal softness

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and kindness, if he had a system
that you could, in retrospect look

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back on, could you outline it?

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Mark Rashid: I don't, I couldn't
tell you that there was a system.

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Mm-hmm.

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Because everything was different.

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You know, he never, I don't recall
him doing the same thing with

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a whole bunch of horses ever.

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He, he took the horse and whatever it was
that the horse needed, that's what he did.

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So there wasn't any sort of program,
if you wanna call it that, or a system.

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Mm-hmm.

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He worked, he truly worked with
the horse as an individual.

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And that was one of the things that
really stuck with me when I would start

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seeing some of these other trainers
later on in life where everything was so

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regimented and if the horse didn't fit
or didn't respond, then the trainer just

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did more of it, or did it bigger, or I.

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Harder or whatever.

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And that just wasn't I, that was
again, so foreign to me that mm-hmm.

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That it, it kind of
didn't make sense to me.

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And it, to be honest, it doesn't make
that much sense to me even today.

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So, so there, I if you wanna say it's
ay, if you wanna call it a system,

00:12:37.956 --> 00:12:39.936
his system was to not have a system.

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Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:12:40.686 --> 00:12:44.046
Or or at least to, to recognize the
individuality of each horse Exactly.

00:12:44.106 --> 00:12:45.126
And, and follow it.

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Mark Rashid: Exactly.

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Rupert Isaacson: I'd like to
return to this in a minute.

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I just wanna go to Chrisy with
a couple of questions here.

00:12:50.646 --> 00:12:54.816
But we all know that systems
also can be very useful.

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So for example, if I'm wanting to play
guitar, I don't play it as well as you

00:12:58.986 --> 00:13:04.006
do mark, but you know that I can do
a certain amount with self-teaching,

00:13:04.756 --> 00:13:07.906
but I do know that it's very, very
helpful to sit down with somebody

00:13:08.116 --> 00:13:12.046
and, and have them show me scales and
arpeggios because it will help me to

00:13:12.046 --> 00:13:15.436
order and then go off on my own again.

00:13:15.436 --> 00:13:17.296
And then they show me something
else that I can order.

00:13:17.296 --> 00:13:22.396
And so this, this interplay of this
say healthy tension between systems and

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individuality, autonomy and connectedness,
I mean, I think is a reality.

00:13:28.156 --> 00:13:33.256
But as you say, sometimes it's so
overdone that one can dominate the

00:13:33.256 --> 00:13:35.806
other to the detriment of the whole.

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And so I'd like to go into that because I
think it's important for people to have.

00:13:42.556 --> 00:13:43.966
Maps to get around with.

00:13:44.906 --> 00:13:45.596
They are helpful.

00:13:46.226 --> 00:13:49.886
And at the same time, you don't want
to stifle your cre creativity of

00:13:49.886 --> 00:13:52.766
finding your own way over the mountain,
you know, but it does help to know

00:13:52.766 --> 00:13:54.146
there's a mountain there sort of thing.

00:13:54.196 --> 00:13:54.356
Mm-hmm.

00:13:54.611 --> 00:13:58.151
So perhaps, and martial arts
obviously do have systems.

00:13:58.391 --> 00:14:03.191
So let, if we could just go into
that paradox a little bit later.

00:14:03.191 --> 00:14:06.161
I'd, I'd love to, because I think
this is a question that's in a lot of

00:14:06.161 --> 00:14:09.311
people's minds of how does one strike
that balance, if you know what I

00:14:09.311 --> 00:14:09.401
mean?

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Mm-hmm.

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Rupert Isaacson: So Chrissy, can,
how did you begin with all of this?

00:14:13.001 --> 00:14:15.581
That and again, you're
not just with horses.

00:14:15.581 --> 00:14:18.191
You are, you're an artist,
you're a photographer, you're an

00:14:18.191 --> 00:14:20.441
author you're in the humanities.

00:14:22.241 --> 00:14:22.331
Mm-hmm.

00:14:22.571 --> 00:14:22.572
Right?

00:14:23.141 --> 00:14:28.841
So give us how you started and what,
more or less, where you're at now.

00:14:28.871 --> 00:14:30.251
What, what, what the mission is.

00:14:31.931 --> 00:14:34.721
Crissi McDonald: Well I was born
into a family who lived in town.

00:14:35.681 --> 00:14:38.261
No, no one in my family likes horses.

00:14:38.561 --> 00:14:39.131
Where what

00:14:39.136 --> 00:14:39.777
tell was that mean?

00:14:40.641 --> 00:14:41.811
Crissi McDonald: This is in Arizona.

00:14:41.811 --> 00:14:42.831
It's called Flagstaff.

00:14:43.131 --> 00:14:43.431
Okay.

00:14:43.761 --> 00:14:48.441
And they don't dislike horses, but
it was like, when I was young, it

00:14:48.441 --> 00:14:51.651
was like, well, of course she likes
horses because every kid likes horses.

00:14:52.551 --> 00:14:53.541
And so I would.

00:14:54.726 --> 00:14:57.306
Clean stalls in exchange for lessons.

00:14:57.306 --> 00:14:59.616
I would groom horses.

00:14:59.616 --> 00:15:03.486
I would clean out horse
trailers, I would babysit.

00:15:03.486 --> 00:15:07.416
I did all these different
things to get time with horses

00:15:07.416 --> 00:15:08.556
because I didn't have one.

00:15:08.556 --> 00:15:09.366
I lived in town.

00:15:10.446 --> 00:15:15.956
And then when I was in my early
twenties, I was the director of the

00:15:15.956 --> 00:15:17.816
riding program at a Girl Scout camp.

00:15:18.626 --> 00:15:21.716
And then shortly after that, up
until that time, I'd been riding

00:15:21.716 --> 00:15:25.661
other people's horses and basically
exercising and grooming it.

00:15:25.666 --> 00:15:28.676
It was, I wouldn't call what I
was doing training so much as, oh,

00:15:29.066 --> 00:15:30.776
just keeping the horse engaged.

00:15:31.586 --> 00:15:38.726
And I really, I've always loved horses and
I fell into, I didn't fall into, but I had

00:15:38.726 --> 00:15:44.796
a friend who had horses and she came from
the background of German martingales and

00:15:44.796 --> 00:15:47.136
tie downs and spurs and crops and whips.

00:15:47.136 --> 00:15:49.896
And if you tell the horse to do
something, they better by God do it.

00:15:51.606 --> 00:15:55.146
And here I come from the background
of grooming horses and hopping on

00:15:55.146 --> 00:15:59.106
bareback and riding in the cinder
hills and, you know, just doing

00:15:59.106 --> 00:16:02.916
whatever, falling off and climbing
back up on a log to get on the horse.

00:16:02.916 --> 00:16:06.846
And I rode standard breads and quarter
horses and Arabs, and I just, it

00:16:06.846 --> 00:16:08.346
didn't matter if it was a horse.

00:16:08.436 --> 00:16:09.126
I was happy.

00:16:09.936 --> 00:16:14.366
And so I got into this world of
very, you know, it was very strict

00:16:14.546 --> 00:16:17.546
and very hard, but I didn't know.

00:16:17.876 --> 00:16:21.746
I thought this was what horses, I thought
once you started getting serious with

00:16:21.746 --> 00:16:24.176
horses that you had to be this way.

00:16:24.386 --> 00:16:25.346
But I never liked it.

00:16:26.246 --> 00:16:29.126
And so I got my own horses.

00:16:29.126 --> 00:16:33.026
I started teaching lessons
started out with kids.

00:16:33.116 --> 00:16:37.566
So anywhere from five years to 14
years, did a lot of kid lessons

00:16:38.106 --> 00:16:40.266
and then moved into training.

00:16:40.506 --> 00:16:45.876
I was very dissatisfied with, with
what I knew because it seemed very

00:16:46.236 --> 00:16:50.226
mechanical and unforgiving and,
you know, the horses always did

00:16:50.226 --> 00:16:51.486
it, but I didn't like how it felt.

00:16:51.726 --> 00:16:54.216
I didn't like how it felt to me,
and I didn't like how it looked.

00:16:55.206 --> 00:16:58.806
And so I started looking
for alternative ways.

00:16:58.836 --> 00:17:03.726
This was in the late nineties, so this
is when a bunch of clinicians came out

00:17:03.726 --> 00:17:09.376
and I ended up studying with John Lyons
a little bit, which was very educational

00:17:09.376 --> 00:17:13.176
at that time, going from the world I
was in to what he was doing which is

00:17:13.176 --> 00:17:14.946
more like conditioned response stuff.

00:17:15.726 --> 00:17:17.256
It was revolutionary.

00:17:17.796 --> 00:17:22.896
But even that, when I started
applying some of those techniques

00:17:22.986 --> 00:17:27.376
to my own horsemanship inside of me,
I was like, that this isn't enough.

00:17:27.856 --> 00:17:33.616
That there, there must be someone
or something out there who knows

00:17:33.616 --> 00:17:34.996
something that I don't even know.

00:17:34.996 --> 00:17:35.716
I don't know.

00:17:36.991 --> 00:17:42.361
And so I asked a friend of mine who,
because she'd ridden with, at that

00:17:42.361 --> 00:17:45.781
time, she'd probably ridden with
50 different clinicians, everyone

00:17:45.781 --> 00:17:47.671
from really well known to local.

00:17:47.671 --> 00:17:53.031
And, and she said she mentioned
Mark's name and I, and she said

00:17:53.031 --> 00:17:54.411
he has a clinic in two months.

00:17:54.861 --> 00:17:56.031
I said, great, sign me up.

00:17:56.031 --> 00:17:57.561
I didn't know who Mark was at that time.

00:17:57.561 --> 00:17:58.791
He had three or four books out.

00:17:59.271 --> 00:18:00.351
She said, here's a book.

00:18:00.621 --> 00:18:01.881
It was considering the horse.

00:18:01.911 --> 00:18:04.911
So I took the book home and I read it and
I'm like, oh, this guy sounds pretty cool.

00:18:05.511 --> 00:18:10.491
And so I went to do a clinic and it
was a four day clinic and I didn't

00:18:10.491 --> 00:18:11.751
have a saddle that fit my horse.

00:18:11.751 --> 00:18:15.581
So I rode in bareback and you
know, I'm a trainer at that point

00:18:15.581 --> 00:18:19.331
and I'm thinking, oh, this'll, you
know, we won't need to do much.

00:18:19.331 --> 00:18:21.431
'cause I'm a trainer and
I've trained my horse.

00:18:22.331 --> 00:18:28.471
I think I was still in my twenties
up and after four days, I remember

00:18:28.651 --> 00:18:34.531
having the distinct feeling that I knew
nothing and that wasn't a bad thing.

00:18:35.401 --> 00:18:39.631
I was really excited by the fact that even
though I didn't know what was going on,

00:18:40.021 --> 00:18:44.641
I knew how I felt and how my voice felt
doing this work that centered on softness.

00:18:44.641 --> 00:18:47.191
I knew that that was the
direction I wanted to go.

00:18:50.476 --> 00:18:51.706
Rupert Isaacson: I could quip that.

00:18:51.766 --> 00:18:53.686
Oh, and then he was so expensive
that you figured, well,

00:18:53.686 --> 00:18:54.526
actually I better marry him.

00:18:54.526 --> 00:18:58.246
And then I couldn't afford to like, keep,
keep the, keep the learning going, right?

00:18:58.246 --> 00:18:58.366
Yeah.

00:18:58.711 --> 00:18:59.001
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

00:18:59.266 --> 00:19:00.706
Keep cuts down on my cost.

00:19:00.706 --> 00:19:01.006
Definitely.

00:19:01.366 --> 00:19:03.526
Rupert Isaacson: You know, I mean, one
has to be practical about these things.

00:19:04.276 --> 00:19:04.666
Crissi McDonald: That's right.

00:19:04.666 --> 00:19:04.668
That's right.

00:19:04.723 --> 00:19:06.943
Rupert Isaacson: So
Mark, consider the horse.

00:19:07.173 --> 00:19:14.533
So Chrissy comes along, she's
searching and she's finding

00:19:14.533 --> 00:19:17.083
things that are effective, but
yeah, it's not sitting with her.

00:19:18.103 --> 00:19:21.523
Talk to us about Consider the
Horse, what's in that book?

00:19:22.063 --> 00:19:24.193
What motivated you to write that book?

00:19:24.583 --> 00:19:27.313
What did you hope, what do you
hope people get from that book?

00:19:27.688 --> 00:19:30.988
Mark Rashid: the, the question
is, it's a really interesting

00:19:30.988 --> 00:19:35.788
question because I didn't, it
wasn't my choice to write that book.

00:19:36.468 --> 00:19:39.228
I was asked to write it and No,

00:19:39.528 --> 00:19:40.008
Rupert Isaacson: by who?

00:19:41.028 --> 00:19:43.968
Mark Rashid: By the, the guy who
actually turned out to be my editor.

00:19:45.438 --> 00:19:47.508
So I was teaching horse
training at the time.

00:19:47.508 --> 00:19:49.248
We were using Mustangs for that.

00:19:49.968 --> 00:19:54.588
And I had a little school this is
before I started doing clinics,

00:19:54.798 --> 00:20:00.528
and I was doing a little school and
we used Mustangs to teach people

00:20:00.528 --> 00:20:02.568
how to train and work with horses.

00:20:03.618 --> 00:20:07.878
And there was a, a woman in the class
and she said, you know, my, my husband

00:20:07.878 --> 00:20:11.838
has a horse and he's not getting along
with it, and we would like to sell him,

00:20:11.838 --> 00:20:15.108
and could you come by and just kind of
tell us what this horse might be worth?

00:20:16.218 --> 00:20:19.558
So I went over and you
couldn't catch the horse.

00:20:19.558 --> 00:20:21.118
So we worked on that for a little while.

00:20:21.808 --> 00:20:25.258
Once you got him caught,
you couldn't saddle him, you

00:20:25.258 --> 00:20:26.338
know, you couldn't brush him.

00:20:26.758 --> 00:20:28.438
So we worked on that for a little while.

00:20:28.958 --> 00:20:31.058
Once you got him saddled
you couldn't get on.

00:20:31.658 --> 00:20:34.688
Once you got on, you couldn't go.

00:20:35.198 --> 00:20:37.028
Once you got him to go, you couldn't stop.

00:20:37.928 --> 00:20:41.588
So we worked on all of that stuff
for, I don't know, maybe 45 minutes.

00:20:42.758 --> 00:20:48.698
And by the time he was, he was, he
wasn't a, a troubled horse or bad horse.

00:20:49.868 --> 00:20:55.748
He had just been getting releases for
things that they didn't want him to do.

00:20:56.648 --> 00:20:59.678
And so it was just a complete
misunderstanding and he didn't

00:20:59.678 --> 00:21:02.258
like the way he felt and the owners
didn't like the way they felt.

00:21:02.708 --> 00:21:06.128
And it didn't take hardly any time just by
showing the horse that, you know, if he.

00:21:06.953 --> 00:21:09.683
Here's the right, here's the thing
that we're looking for you to do.

00:21:10.043 --> 00:21:12.383
And he would go, oh, okay,
well then I'll just do that.

00:21:13.883 --> 00:21:18.363
So anyway I had actually written some
articles for Western Horseman Magazine

00:21:19.083 --> 00:21:26.143
and by that time, and so the, her
husband, his name was Scott, and he,

00:21:26.143 --> 00:21:30.203
he said, have you ever thought about
writing a book about what you do?

00:21:30.203 --> 00:21:35.153
And I, and I said, no, I haven't
given it any thought to, to do that.

00:21:36.173 --> 00:21:39.443
And he said, well, if you ever want,
if you ever want to write a write a

00:21:39.443 --> 00:21:40.973
book, let me know 'cause I can help.

00:21:41.693 --> 00:21:44.183
And I was thinking, well, you know,
what do you got a typewriter or what?

00:21:44.633 --> 00:21:48.673
You know, so, but but it turns
out that he was an editor for this

00:21:48.793 --> 00:21:51.103
publishing company, Johnson Books.

00:21:51.793 --> 00:21:55.723
And he, a couple weeks later, he
called me up and he said, have you

00:21:56.383 --> 00:21:58.033
given any more thought to that book?

00:21:58.093 --> 00:22:02.113
And I said, I haven't given any thought
to it, you know, and so we, we sat

00:22:02.113 --> 00:22:05.413
down and worked it out that night.

00:22:05.413 --> 00:22:07.693
We, we were on, we were on
the phone for a couple hours.

00:22:08.803 --> 00:22:11.443
He went down the next day and
pitched it to the publishing

00:22:11.443 --> 00:22:12.373
company and they bought it.

00:22:13.633 --> 00:22:19.333
So, I just wanted to write a book
that, the idea was I wanted it to read

00:22:19.333 --> 00:22:24.963
like a James Harriet book and I wanted
it to look like a Will James book.

00:22:25.323 --> 00:22:30.993
James was a cowboy back in the 1930s who
was also a, an author and illustrator.

00:22:32.103 --> 00:22:35.733
And so that's how I,
that's how it came to be.

00:22:36.663 --> 00:22:41.523
And it was about, basically it was just
about working with troubled horses and,

00:22:42.093 --> 00:22:47.823
which was basically what I had been doing
up to that point primarily is just lots

00:22:47.823 --> 00:22:49.533
and lots and lots of troubled horses.

00:22:50.703 --> 00:22:51.993
So that's what the book was about.

00:22:52.048 --> 00:22:53.283
And, and I and

00:22:53.403 --> 00:22:54.933
Rupert Isaacson: Christy,
sorry, you go ahead.

00:22:54.933 --> 00:22:55.803
I didn't mean to interrupt you.

00:22:56.073 --> 00:22:58.593
Mark Rashid: Oh, no, I was just
gonna say that I didn't, I didn't

00:22:58.593 --> 00:23:02.553
think it was, I didn't, I didn't
think it was gonna be a big deal.

00:23:03.513 --> 00:23:04.923
And they actually didn't want it.

00:23:05.793 --> 00:23:10.873
The, the marketing guy after I'd started
writing the book, he went and looked

00:23:10.873 --> 00:23:15.073
at the bestselling horse books on the
market and they were all how to books.

00:23:15.073 --> 00:23:17.593
And mine wasn't that,
you know, even close.

00:23:18.373 --> 00:23:19.933
He didn't think he'd be able to sell it.

00:23:20.443 --> 00:23:28.003
And so long story short, they, they
published it and they, I think they

00:23:28.003 --> 00:23:34.183
only did like 3000 copies and they sent
it out to a few to get some reviews.

00:23:34.243 --> 00:23:38.143
And the first review was from a big
time magazine here in the States.

00:23:38.143 --> 00:23:42.733
And it was the, the, the thing that
they said in the review is that I was

00:23:42.733 --> 00:23:44.533
a Colorado clone of James Harriet.

00:23:46.258 --> 00:23:47.128
The book took off.

00:23:47.668 --> 00:23:48.748
Rupert Isaacson: So
you'd hit the spot there,

00:23:49.138 --> 00:23:49.948
Mark Rashid: I guess.

00:23:50.158 --> 00:23:56.068
And it's, right now it's sold over a
million and a half copies worldwide.

00:23:56.068 --> 00:23:56.368
Good Lord.

00:23:57.118 --> 00:23:57.778
So, yeah.

00:23:57.778 --> 00:23:59.038
It's, who knew.

00:24:01.378 --> 00:24:01.978
Rupert Isaacson: Well, well done.

00:24:01.978 --> 00:24:03.688
Hats off Chrissy.

00:24:03.688 --> 00:24:09.508
When you read that book what, what
made you think, yeah, I need to

00:24:10.258 --> 00:24:11.428
go and learn from this person?

00:24:13.618 --> 00:24:15.178
Crissi McDonald: Well, I was
already signed up for the clinic,

00:24:15.178 --> 00:24:16.318
so I'd already paid my money.

00:24:16.753 --> 00:24:17.043
That

00:24:17.043 --> 00:24:17.243
Rupert Isaacson: helped.

00:24:18.178 --> 00:24:18.538
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

00:24:18.928 --> 00:24:22.948
When I read the book, it struck me
because I had been reading horse

00:24:22.948 --> 00:24:25.408
books and they were all how to books.

00:24:25.408 --> 00:24:28.588
You know, if you want the horse
to do a, you have to do B and C.

00:24:28.798 --> 00:24:30.628
If the horse does D you do f.

00:24:31.198 --> 00:24:36.148
You know, and they had great illustrations
and it was mostly, you know, how to

00:24:36.148 --> 00:24:37.948
get the horses to do stuff, which,

00:24:37.948 --> 00:24:38.008
yeah,

00:24:38.608 --> 00:24:42.478
Crissi McDonald: it, that's not, it's not
a bad thing, but it was very engaging for

00:24:42.478 --> 00:24:44.398
the part of my brain that likes systems.

00:24:44.638 --> 00:24:46.138
So we were talking about systems earlier.

00:24:46.528 --> 00:24:46.648
Mm-hmm.

00:24:47.018 --> 00:24:49.748
Crissi McDonald: When I read
Mark's book, it was all stories.

00:24:49.808 --> 00:24:54.398
And so the feeling I got from those
had nothing to do with my brain.

00:24:55.148 --> 00:24:57.608
It was all, it was in my body.

00:24:57.608 --> 00:25:00.608
I was thinking, you know,
I've never thought of that.

00:25:01.598 --> 00:25:05.828
That seems so much kinder or that
seems so much more easy to understand

00:25:05.828 --> 00:25:08.468
than A, B, C, DEFG, you know?

00:25:08.958 --> 00:25:10.188
Rupert Isaacson: Give
us a couple of examples.

00:25:10.548 --> 00:25:13.158
Are there a couple of things that,
stories that really leapt out at you?

00:25:13.158 --> 00:25:15.168
If you could just summarize
them that probably stick in

00:25:15.168 --> 00:25:16.938
your head like that you thought?

00:25:16.968 --> 00:25:17.568
Oh yeah.

00:25:17.568 --> 00:25:19.338
Gosh, yes.

00:25:21.978 --> 00:25:25.788
Crissi McDonald: One of 'em
that I remember is Mark has a

00:25:25.788 --> 00:25:27.108
story about catching a horse.

00:25:28.248 --> 00:25:34.098
And I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna try
and quote it, but it was at that time,

00:25:34.218 --> 00:25:38.118
catching horses was basically about if
the horse wants to run, you make 'em

00:25:38.118 --> 00:25:40.548
run until they don't wanna run anymore.

00:25:41.418 --> 00:25:44.598
And so that's what I had learned
is you get in a round pen if the

00:25:44.598 --> 00:25:48.018
horse doesn't wanna be caught, we
go around and then the horse will

00:25:48.018 --> 00:25:49.278
get tired and then you can catch up.

00:25:49.278 --> 00:25:50.778
Rupert Isaacson: That's assuming
you couldn't even get the horse into

00:25:50.778 --> 00:25:52.068
the round pen in the first place.

00:25:52.068 --> 00:25:52.368
Yes,

00:25:52.698 --> 00:25:53.898
Crissi McDonald: yes, yes.

00:25:53.898 --> 00:25:58.488
Thank, thankfully I was, I was
blessed to have horses that actually

00:25:58.488 --> 00:25:59.778
went with me into the round pen.

00:26:00.498 --> 00:26:04.248
Or it had, there was a large corral
or something, but it, when I was doing

00:26:04.248 --> 00:26:11.388
that, it was so disconnected, you
know, I would do it and I, and I could

00:26:11.388 --> 00:26:15.018
get the job done except for a couple
horses, which is why I went searching.

00:26:15.498 --> 00:26:15.708
Yeah.

00:26:16.088 --> 00:26:20.858
Crissi McDonald: But Mark talked
about just moving instead of driving

00:26:20.858 --> 00:26:22.628
the horse, you know, run, run, run.

00:26:22.628 --> 00:26:24.608
Oh, if you wanna run by
God, we're gonna run.

00:26:25.538 --> 00:26:29.468
Instead of doing that is going
with the horse as they move.

00:26:30.128 --> 00:26:33.548
So that, so that you're more
doing something in connection.

00:26:34.448 --> 00:26:41.318
And that, you know, that really
struck me is because up until this

00:26:41.558 --> 00:26:45.248
time I had been immersed in kind of
a dominance version of horsemanship.

00:26:45.398 --> 00:26:45.608
Right?

00:26:45.608 --> 00:26:46.538
I say, you do.

00:26:47.588 --> 00:26:54.098
And that was the story that cracked
open the door to, oh, this could

00:26:54.098 --> 00:26:56.558
actually be something we do together.

00:26:57.368 --> 00:27:01.388
That both of us end up feeling better
by the end, instead of one of us is out

00:27:01.388 --> 00:27:03.098
of breath and the other feels crummy.

00:27:03.488 --> 00:27:03.788
You know?

00:27:03.788 --> 00:27:03.848
Yeah.

00:27:03.878 --> 00:27:10.238
Like, oh, I made another being do
what I wanted, which it, it's not me,

00:27:10.418 --> 00:27:12.788
you know, I'm not gonna say whether
it's good or bad, it's just not me.

00:27:13.538 --> 00:27:18.338
And so that was the first story I
remember thinking, oh, there's a way

00:27:18.338 --> 00:27:24.428
to do something with a horse, you know,
and have them feel good about being in

00:27:24.428 --> 00:27:27.338
your company as opposed to, you know?

00:27:27.518 --> 00:27:28.148
Yes, sir.

00:27:29.768 --> 00:27:32.648
So I think that was the first one

00:27:33.668 --> 00:27:37.298
Rupert Isaacson: when you
then began to work together.

00:27:38.168 --> 00:27:42.428
I imagine that the volume of horses
that were suddenly and people that

00:27:42.428 --> 00:27:46.448
were suddenly coming in front of
you probably accelerated a bit.

00:27:46.658 --> 00:27:49.688
You've, you've got the success
of the book now, you're a team.

00:27:50.588 --> 00:27:52.628
You can do, more people have heard of you.

00:27:52.628 --> 00:27:56.678
So now stuff starts to happen
and you learn a lot more, right?

00:27:56.678 --> 00:28:00.878
Because of all these different contexts,
human and equine, what would you say

00:28:02.948 --> 00:28:06.428
in those early years where you
began to work together, were the

00:28:06.428 --> 00:28:10.808
things that most leapt out at you
as a, as a team, as a pair go, oh

00:28:11.498 --> 00:28:13.898
we see this over and over again.

00:28:14.378 --> 00:28:18.638
And then also what
patterns did you begin to

00:28:21.698 --> 00:28:27.158
evolve together that you could now
look back on and say, ah, right, yes.

00:28:27.368 --> 00:28:32.288
That was sort of the time we've actually
kind of evolved this approach or this

00:28:32.288 --> 00:28:35.798
framework in response to these things.

00:28:35.798 --> 00:28:37.058
Just talk us through that a little bit.

00:28:37.058 --> 00:28:42.068
'cause it's going to inform, I think, the
later questions, which is about things

00:28:42.068 --> 00:28:46.318
that are, people are facing now, you
know, who are listening particularly in

00:28:46.318 --> 00:28:50.908
the equine assisted programs and, and,
and how we can open up more options.

00:28:51.148 --> 00:28:51.748
So, yeah.

00:28:51.958 --> 00:28:52.048
Mm-hmm.

00:28:52.708 --> 00:28:58.738
Just, just what were the patterns that
you saw that people seemed to consistently

00:28:58.738 --> 00:29:03.088
need over and over again, and what
did you see were the patterns of the

00:29:03.088 --> 00:29:06.208
responses that you guys ended up evolving?

00:29:07.828 --> 00:29:08.158
Crissi McDonald: Got it.

00:29:08.248 --> 00:29:09.418
If you don't mind, I'll start.

00:29:11.233 --> 00:29:12.373
Mark's got himself muted.

00:29:12.373 --> 00:29:13.453
So I'll just start anyway.

00:29:14.593 --> 00:29:15.463
Rupert Isaacson: Maybe on purpose.

00:29:15.468 --> 00:29:17.803
I dunno, he's wise.

00:29:17.853 --> 00:29:24.033
Crissi McDonald: So when I, when I
started working with Mark, I had gone

00:29:24.033 --> 00:29:31.683
from a trainer who saw, I'm gonna say
30 to 40 horses and clients a year.

00:29:32.763 --> 00:29:40.863
And that included cult starting riding,
trailer loading it was everything from,

00:29:40.983 --> 00:29:49.143
so from maybe 30 or 40 people a year
to I'm gonna say between four and 500.

00:29:49.443 --> 00:29:54.603
And then if we went to equine,
if we went to a trade show or,

00:29:54.993 --> 00:29:59.013
you know, like Equant or Equine
Affair, that jumped into thousands.

00:29:59.013 --> 00:29:59.073
Yeah.

00:29:59.253 --> 00:30:02.343
And so me personally, the first
year that I started working,

00:30:02.553 --> 00:30:03.813
we started doing clinics.

00:30:04.173 --> 00:30:07.383
We were on the road two hundred and
fifty, two hundred sixty days a year.

00:30:07.383 --> 00:30:09.183
We were doing 42 clinics a year.

00:30:09.873 --> 00:30:17.343
Me personally, I was in overwhelm
because of the amount of horses

00:30:17.343 --> 00:30:18.483
and people we were seeing.

00:30:19.083 --> 00:30:24.693
And my own learning curve went
straight up just, just like a rocket.

00:30:25.173 --> 00:30:30.873
So for me personally, you know, what
I relied on a lot was, was teaching.

00:30:31.788 --> 00:30:34.068
But then at the end of the day,
being able to go to Mark and say,

00:30:34.068 --> 00:30:38.118
okay, I saw this thing and it
felt like this needed to happen.

00:30:38.118 --> 00:30:43.788
So I showed them this and it mostly
worked, but I feel like I'm missing

00:30:43.788 --> 00:30:46.998
something and Mark will have
already worked with that person.

00:30:47.688 --> 00:30:50.928
What we used to do is he would work
with the person, they would come to

00:30:50.928 --> 00:30:54.318
me and they would have an extra hour
to kind of solidify their learning.

00:30:54.588 --> 00:30:59.088
We only saw eight people a day, and that
was a four day clinic in the beginning.

00:31:00.168 --> 00:31:03.918
So, you know, at first I was
reliant on the fact that he had

00:31:03.918 --> 00:31:05.959
been ing a lot longer than I had.

00:31:06.503 --> 00:31:14.138
I, I had gone from mostly backyard horse
people to you know, to all disciplines.

00:31:14.258 --> 00:31:18.038
And I was familiar with all disciplines
and like Mark said, the principles,

00:31:18.038 --> 00:31:21.728
it doesn't matter what saddle they're
working in, the principles are the same.

00:31:22.508 --> 00:31:28.598
So yeah, for me, I would say initially
it was, it was the ability to take what

00:31:28.598 --> 00:31:34.508
I saw and run it by Mark, who had had,
at that point, thousands more horses

00:31:34.508 --> 00:31:36.038
and people under his belt than I had.

00:31:36.818 --> 00:31:42.958
And and also just really enjoy being
able to go back and forth across the

00:31:42.958 --> 00:31:45.658
country and see so many horses and people.

00:31:46.228 --> 00:31:53.188
It was just a crash course in how to
recognize certain things, you know?

00:31:53.188 --> 00:31:55.498
And, and if you're in long
enough and you see enough.

00:31:56.383 --> 00:31:58.363
Patterns do start to emerge, right?

00:31:58.663 --> 00:32:04.543
And it's not that you're, it's not you're
that you're designing your teaching

00:32:04.543 --> 00:32:08.143
to the pattern, but you go, oh, okay,
here's the pattern I've seen before.

00:32:08.143 --> 00:32:09.223
Here's what worked in the past.

00:32:09.223 --> 00:32:10.123
Let's try this.

00:32:10.603 --> 00:32:12.343
And if it doesn't work,
you try something else.

00:32:12.583 --> 00:32:16.783
But that's, that was my impression.

00:32:16.783 --> 00:32:20.173
So I think, you know, I, and then as
we've started the clinics, especially the

00:32:20.173 --> 00:32:25.633
10 day clinics, I think we rely on each
other a lot for impressions of, you know,

00:32:25.633 --> 00:32:27.673
how to help a horse and a person best.

00:32:28.273 --> 00:32:29.533
It's different every time.

00:32:29.533 --> 00:32:34.303
As you know, Rupert as well, you, you
can teach the same thing every time, but

00:32:34.303 --> 00:32:35.503
the person in the horse are different.

00:32:35.503 --> 00:32:38.863
And it makes that teaching just a
little bit different every time.

00:32:38.863 --> 00:32:39.133
Absolutely.

00:32:39.313 --> 00:32:47.323
So that's been very valuable, is to
develop a flexibility in my own teaching

00:32:47.473 --> 00:32:50.383
instead of just, you know, do a, B, C.

00:32:51.553 --> 00:32:51.823
Right.

00:32:51.823 --> 00:32:52.333
There's a part of me

00:32:52.333 --> 00:32:54.643
Crissi McDonald: that really likes
those kind of systems because then I

00:32:54.643 --> 00:33:01.153
don't have to think, but it's, it's
not creative and it's not personalized.

00:33:01.423 --> 00:33:04.543
Rupert Isaacson: But those patterns
that were showing up, were there

00:33:04.543 --> 00:33:10.423
consistent issues, dilemmas that
people, and were showing up to get them?

00:33:10.423 --> 00:33:14.503
And what would you say the ones that
just leap into your mind straight away?

00:33:14.803 --> 00:33:15.043
Yeah.

00:33:15.043 --> 00:33:17.203
We had a bunch of people and it was this.

00:33:18.418 --> 00:33:21.178
Crissi McDonald: For a while we had a
bunch of people with Premarin horses,

00:33:21.238 --> 00:33:24.358
and for people who aren't familiar
with Premarin horses, those are the

00:33:24.838 --> 00:33:27.358
offspring of mares that they use.

00:33:27.418 --> 00:33:31.808
They use mares urine to make hormone
replacement therapy for women.

00:33:31.808 --> 00:33:32.588
It's called Premarin.

00:33:32.588 --> 00:33:35.108
I don't know how it is now.

00:33:35.648 --> 00:33:36.008
Yeah.

00:33:36.488 --> 00:33:39.033
So we were seeing at the time,
and then there was this mo Yeah.

00:33:39.363 --> 00:33:42.858
There was this movement
to adopt the babies out.

00:33:42.893 --> 00:33:43.313
Mm-hmm.

00:33:43.393 --> 00:33:43.394
Mm-hmm.

00:33:43.548 --> 00:33:44.148
So,

00:33:44.388 --> 00:33:47.178
Crissi McDonald: because the
babies were just like an after

00:33:47.628 --> 00:33:49.458
effect, they just needed the urine.

00:33:50.148 --> 00:33:55.848
So we saw a lot of Premarin horses for
a number of years, and it was really

00:33:55.848 --> 00:34:00.318
interesting because for a while we'd see
horses who had been diagnosed with EPM,

00:34:00.948 --> 00:34:06.918
and then for a while we saw horses who had
been barefoot, but maybe needed to choose.

00:34:06.918 --> 00:34:10.368
And then we saw primer and horses, and
then now we seem to be in a stretch where

00:34:10.368 --> 00:34:12.858
we're seeing a fair amount of mustangs.

00:34:12.858 --> 00:34:15.978
So it, things go in waves.

00:34:16.308 --> 00:34:16.428
Rupert Isaacson: Right.

00:34:16.428 --> 00:34:19.128
But what were the, what were
the dilemmas that these Premarin

00:34:19.128 --> 00:34:21.288
horses were, were bringing?

00:34:22.588 --> 00:34:23.968
And I'm gonna ask you about
the, the, I'll let Yeah.

00:34:25.168 --> 00:34:26.368
Crissi McDonald: Ask Mark about that too.

00:34:26.368 --> 00:34:30.628
A lot of them were, because they
don't have papers, you can't

00:34:30.628 --> 00:34:34.258
verify, but a lot of them seem
to be inbred and unable to learn.

00:34:34.318 --> 00:34:37.828
So the most common thing was,
is people saying, you know,

00:34:38.068 --> 00:34:39.388
I show my horse this thing.

00:34:39.718 --> 00:34:40.918
We do it for a week.

00:34:41.593 --> 00:34:46.693
And I think I'm doing it in a way that
he's learning, and then I'll go back the

00:34:46.693 --> 00:34:49.213
next day and it's like he's never done it.

00:34:49.693 --> 00:34:51.283
Rupert Isaacson: Almost
like autism in horses.

00:34:52.298 --> 00:34:52.588
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

00:34:52.588 --> 00:34:52.868
Mm-hmm.

00:34:54.068 --> 00:34:54.348
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

00:34:55.128 --> 00:34:55.418
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

00:34:55.693 --> 00:34:56.923
I'll let Mark pick it up from there.

00:34:56.983 --> 00:34:57.703
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, please do.

00:34:57.703 --> 00:34:58.033
Mark.

00:34:58.133 --> 00:34:59.033
Talk to us about this.

00:35:00.053 --> 00:35:05.523
Mark Rashid: Well, back in the
eighties I had read a book on dogs

00:35:05.523 --> 00:35:10.803
with that had been inbred and they
carried certain behaviors with them

00:35:12.213 --> 00:35:14.403
and also physical traits as well.

00:35:15.363 --> 00:35:23.403
And I had seen some horses with similar
behaviors and physical traits, balance

00:35:23.403 --> 00:35:26.193
issues and and a variety of things.

00:35:27.033 --> 00:35:32.763
And so I just, I just started asking
people about if the horse was registered

00:35:32.763 --> 00:35:37.173
and if it was, we would look at the
papers and sure enough we would see

00:35:37.443 --> 00:35:39.183
either inbreeding or line breeding.

00:35:40.293 --> 00:35:45.573
And the most common is kind of
the textbook is is horses that

00:35:45.573 --> 00:35:48.123
are unable to retain information.

00:35:49.203 --> 00:35:51.243
So that's one of the, one of the big ones.

00:35:51.243 --> 00:35:51.753
Interesting.

00:35:52.293 --> 00:35:52.623
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:35:53.133 --> 00:35:56.303
Mark Rashid: From behavioral
issues, you know, really horses

00:35:56.303 --> 00:36:00.743
that seem really, really frustrated,
defensive horses that are defensive.

00:36:01.443 --> 00:36:03.213
Some horses are very aggressive.

00:36:03.883 --> 00:36:06.313
Not to other horses
necessarily, but to people.

00:36:06.883 --> 00:36:07.093
Hmm.

00:36:07.243 --> 00:36:11.383
So there, there's a whole list of
things that, and behaviors that

00:36:11.383 --> 00:36:13.593
we, that we that they will exhibit.

00:36:14.673 --> 00:36:18.083
And, you know, we are working with Dr.

00:36:18.083 --> 00:36:20.723
Steve Peters a lot here
in the last seven years.

00:36:20.723 --> 00:36:25.523
And, and I talked with him at
length about this and, and there's

00:36:25.523 --> 00:36:27.023
a ton of research on it now.

00:36:28.013 --> 00:36:32.903
And one of the interesting things
about inbred horses is that depending

00:36:32.903 --> 00:36:37.433
on how they are managed early
on, will determine whether or not

00:36:37.433 --> 00:36:39.713
those genes get turned on or off.

00:36:40.613 --> 00:36:44.633
And so there are, there are some
inbred horses out there that are world

00:36:44.633 --> 00:36:47.903
champion reers or jumpers or whatever.

00:36:48.713 --> 00:36:51.743
And then there's others that
you can't lead out of the pen.

00:36:52.793 --> 00:36:55.583
You know, that literally will
spook at their own shadow.

00:36:56.543 --> 00:37:02.163
And we have an inbred horse here
who's a great horse, great trail

00:37:02.163 --> 00:37:05.033
horse, and but he's pretty quirky.

00:37:05.963 --> 00:37:08.273
And our granddaughter rides him.

00:37:09.113 --> 00:37:14.753
And he's a great, you know, really super
nice horse, but he's a little quirky,

00:37:15.053 --> 00:37:21.323
you know, but the way he was handled
early on didn't, those genes didn't turn

00:37:21.323 --> 00:37:24.863
on that caused all the major issues.

00:37:25.493 --> 00:37:28.913
Now he does have some balance
issues and he can't canner.

00:37:29.873 --> 00:37:33.863
And that's, as these guys get older,
those are some of the things that

00:37:33.863 --> 00:37:36.683
start happening with, you start
seeing balance issues, you start

00:37:36.683 --> 00:37:42.773
seeing lack of wanting to go past a,
a gate that they're comfortable in.

00:37:43.523 --> 00:37:45.773
And Chrissy worked on seeing
if she couldn't get him to

00:37:45.773 --> 00:37:47.963
canner for a couple of years.

00:37:47.993 --> 00:37:51.203
He did initially, and then eventually
he just couldn't do it anymore.

00:37:51.923 --> 00:37:53.003
So we almost like a kind of

00:37:53.003 --> 00:37:53.483
Rupert Isaacson: dementia.

00:37:54.053 --> 00:37:54.353
Mark Rashid: Yeah.

00:37:55.373 --> 00:37:55.763
Yeah.

00:37:57.323 --> 00:38:02.003
Rupert Isaacson: So when a horse
presents to you with this kind of almost

00:38:02.003 --> 00:38:07.883
like autism-like symptoms associated
with the inbreeding what do you do?

00:38:09.353 --> 00:38:10.523
Mark Rashid: Depends on the severity,

00:38:10.973 --> 00:38:11.513
Rupert Isaacson: no doubt.

00:38:11.573 --> 00:38:12.473
But in general,

00:38:13.913 --> 00:38:20.813
Mark Rashid: If, if the horse is
unable to retain information, then

00:38:20.993 --> 00:38:24.083
we usually recommend that they
just become a pasture ornament.

00:38:25.523 --> 00:38:29.933
You know, just turn 'em out and pasture
if they can, or find a rescue that

00:38:29.933 --> 00:38:34.373
can take 'em, because as long as you
allow them to be a horse, they're fine.

00:38:35.408 --> 00:38:39.488
When we start to interact with them,
when humans start to ask them to

00:38:39.488 --> 00:38:43.388
do things other than just being a
horse, when you add monkey stuff,

00:38:43.448 --> 00:38:43.718
right?

00:38:43.808 --> 00:38:44.198
Yeah.

00:38:44.198 --> 00:38:44.199
Mark Rashid: Yeah.

00:38:44.468 --> 00:38:46.358
That's when they really start to struggle.

00:38:46.688 --> 00:38:47.108
Interesting.

00:38:47.168 --> 00:38:53.138
And as far as being a, a riding horse
they can potentially be, be dangerous.

00:38:53.438 --> 00:38:53.948
Yeah, sure.

00:38:53.948 --> 00:38:57.098
Not because, not because they,
not because they're gonna be

00:38:57.098 --> 00:38:58.748
dangerous as, as an animal.

00:38:58.748 --> 00:39:01.598
It is just that their behavior
is gonna be unpredictable.

00:39:02.768 --> 00:39:04.913
And so it's really important.

00:39:04.913 --> 00:39:06.248
Rupert Isaacson: Let's say
it's not that extreme though.

00:39:06.348 --> 00:39:09.108
And someone's just, you know, the
horse is clearly struggling, but

00:39:09.438 --> 00:39:14.598
they, it seems that there's some
possibilities for some potential.

00:39:14.898 --> 00:39:17.958
How do you go about helping the
horse to retain information?

00:39:20.058 --> 00:39:21.378
Mark Rashid: If they can't retain it?

00:39:21.438 --> 00:39:22.488
They can't retain it.

00:39:22.878 --> 00:39:25.068
So it's not like you can fix that.

00:39:25.938 --> 00:39:28.548
Rupert Isaacson: You, you can't
build neuroplasticity in the horse.

00:39:28.668 --> 00:39:28.908
Mm-hmm.

00:39:30.048 --> 00:39:31.998
Mark Rashid: No, no.

00:39:32.508 --> 00:39:35.179
So it's, it is just the way it is.

00:39:35.223 --> 00:39:35.603
But you

00:39:35.608 --> 00:39:36.168
Rupert Isaacson: can in people.

00:39:36.168 --> 00:39:37.638
So, so why not in horses?

00:39:39.318 --> 00:39:39.858
Mark Rashid: I don't know.

00:39:39.858 --> 00:39:42.858
You'd have to ask a
neurologist about that.

00:39:43.048 --> 00:39:43.049
I,

00:39:43.288 --> 00:39:44.678
Rupert Isaacson: I think
we need to go back to Dr.

00:39:44.678 --> 00:39:45.358
Steven Peters.

00:39:45.598 --> 00:39:47.098
It's an interesting, that's interesting.

00:39:47.518 --> 00:39:50.183
It's intriguing to me because,
you know, I, I'm, I, can

00:39:50.183 --> 00:39:50.998
Crissi McDonald: I throw
something in real quick?

00:39:50.998 --> 00:39:51.628
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah, please do.

00:39:52.708 --> 00:39:59.058
Crissi McDonald: So, the source that
we have, his name is Banjo, and for.

00:40:00.453 --> 00:40:04.683
I don't, I wrote him in clinics for
five or six summers and when we got

00:40:04.683 --> 00:40:05.913
him, he didn't know his lateral work.

00:40:05.913 --> 00:40:08.703
So turn on the haunches,
turn on the forehand back up.

00:40:09.633 --> 00:40:10.983
He didn't know any of that.

00:40:11.673 --> 00:40:16.893
I worked on that consistently
for four years and every summer

00:40:17.073 --> 00:40:18.543
I had to start at the beginning.

00:40:20.193 --> 00:40:27.453
So when this compares to our other horses,
who I've spent just as much time with,

00:40:28.083 --> 00:40:30.183
one of them I hadn't ridden in two years.

00:40:30.183 --> 00:40:33.363
I got on her and she had all her moves.

00:40:34.473 --> 00:40:39.603
Turn on the forehand, turn on the haunches
side, pass back up, very soft, no trouble,

00:40:40.623 --> 00:40:44.793
but banjo every summer I had to say,
okay, this means turn on the forehand.

00:40:45.363 --> 00:40:47.373
This means turn on the haunches.

00:40:47.973 --> 00:40:51.213
And he could retain it as
long as we were doing it.

00:40:51.513 --> 00:40:51.843
Okay.

00:40:51.933 --> 00:40:57.973
Crissi McDonald: But it was always, there
was never any graduation in skill level.

00:40:57.973 --> 00:40:58.003
Okay.

00:40:58.423 --> 00:41:02.983
So it was always as though it was
the first time he was ever doing it.

00:41:04.243 --> 00:41:07.573
And then the next summer would come
around and I'd have to do it again.

00:41:07.573 --> 00:41:11.893
And knowing that he's in bread, it
didn't, you know, I just thought,

00:41:11.893 --> 00:41:18.043
well, that this, we're meeting
now his capacity to do this skill.

00:41:18.283 --> 00:41:20.263
If you wanna go down a trail, he's great.

00:41:20.773 --> 00:41:21.823
Go over a log.

00:41:22.093 --> 00:41:22.633
He stops.

00:41:22.633 --> 00:41:23.053
Great.

00:41:23.623 --> 00:41:24.913
He's like a goat.

00:41:25.003 --> 00:41:25.903
He'll go anywhere.

00:41:26.748 --> 00:41:30.718
But if you want refined
work, that's his ceiling.

00:41:31.528 --> 00:41:33.568
So I just, I just expect that

00:41:33.988 --> 00:41:34.348
Rupert Isaacson: do.

00:41:34.438 --> 00:41:34.708
Yeah.

00:41:34.828 --> 00:41:36.208
And you work within his parameters.

00:41:36.238 --> 00:41:36.598
Yeah.

00:41:36.928 --> 00:41:37.138
Yes.

00:41:37.138 --> 00:41:38.188
This is interesting to me.

00:41:38.288 --> 00:41:40.668
Do you think there's a lot of
people out there working with inbred

00:41:40.668 --> 00:41:41.868
horses who dunno that they are?

00:41:43.108 --> 00:41:44.698
Mark Rashid: We see, yes.

00:41:44.728 --> 00:41:48.598
I wouldn't say we see one a clinic, but
we, but they, we see a bunch of 'em.

00:41:49.198 --> 00:41:50.188
We see a bunch of them.

00:41:50.714 --> 00:41:53.044
Rupert Isaacson: If you're in the
equine assisted field, or if you're

00:41:53.044 --> 00:41:57.474
considering a career in the equine
assisted field, you might want to consider

00:41:57.544 --> 00:42:01.814
taking one of our three neuroscience
backed equine assisted programs.

00:42:01.874 --> 00:42:07.454
Horseboy method, now established
for 20 years, is the original

00:42:08.049 --> 00:42:14.359
Equine assisted program specifically
designed for autism, mentored by and

00:42:14.359 --> 00:42:17.029
developed in conjunction with Dr.

00:42:17.029 --> 00:42:19.909
Temple Grandin and many
other neuroscientists.

00:42:20.249 --> 00:42:23.519
We work in the saddle
with younger children.

00:42:24.014 --> 00:42:28.964
Helping them create oxytocin in their
bodies and neuroplasticity in the brain.

00:42:29.624 --> 00:42:31.064
It works incredibly well.

00:42:31.064 --> 00:42:32.784
It's now in about 40 countries.

00:42:33.494 --> 00:42:34.244
Check it out.

00:42:34.924 --> 00:42:39.074
If you're working without horses,
you might want to look at movement

00:42:39.084 --> 00:42:42.454
method, which gets a very, very
similar effect, but can also be

00:42:42.454 --> 00:42:44.204
applied in schools, in homes.

00:42:44.404 --> 00:42:49.394
If you're working with families, you can
give them really tangible exercises to do

00:42:49.394 --> 00:42:50.934
at home that will create neuroplasticity.

00:42:52.289 --> 00:42:53.569
when they're not with you.

00:42:54.079 --> 00:42:57.519
Finally, we have taquine
equine integration.

00:42:57.879 --> 00:43:00.499
If you know anything about our
programs, you know that we need a

00:43:00.499 --> 00:43:04.499
really high standard of horsemanship
in order to create the oxytocin

00:43:04.529 --> 00:43:08.819
in the body of the person that
we're working with, child or adult.

00:43:09.259 --> 00:43:12.599
So, this means we need to train
a horse in collection, but this

00:43:12.619 --> 00:43:16.859
also has a really beneficial
effect on the horse's well being.

00:43:17.059 --> 00:43:21.349
And it also ends your time conflict,
where you're wondering, oh my gosh, how

00:43:21.349 --> 00:43:24.649
am I going to condition my horses and
maintain them and give them what they

00:43:24.649 --> 00:43:27.744
need, as well as Serving my clients.

00:43:27.984 --> 00:43:32.484
Takine equine integration aimed
at a more adult client base

00:43:32.814 --> 00:43:34.464
absolutely gives you this.

00:43:34.524 --> 00:43:38.574
Do you think it's on the
increase or decrease or stable?

00:43:41.469 --> 00:43:43.584
Mark Rashid: I've, I've,
that's a good question.

00:43:43.644 --> 00:43:45.474
I, I would say that I've seen

00:43:47.544 --> 00:43:48.384
probably more.

00:43:49.434 --> 00:43:49.794
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:43:50.214 --> 00:43:53.304
Mark Rashid: In the last five, six years.

00:43:53.724 --> 00:43:54.894
Rupert Isaacson: What do
you attribute that to?

00:43:56.754 --> 00:43:57.804
Mark Rashid: Backyard breeding.

00:43:58.824 --> 00:44:00.564
Rupert Isaacson: But people have
always backyard bred, so Yeah.

00:44:00.564 --> 00:44:01.404
Why now?

00:44:03.204 --> 00:44:07.014
Or do you think there's just more of
it or about the backyard breeding?

00:44:07.014 --> 00:44:07.199
I, you know,

00:44:07.254 --> 00:44:08.214
Mark Rashid: I don't know.

00:44:08.634 --> 00:44:09.384
I just don't know.

00:44:09.384 --> 00:44:11.724
I mean, it could be a
lot of pasture breeding.

00:44:11.724 --> 00:44:17.514
We've seen a lot of rescue horses that
were brought in and they, you know,

00:44:17.514 --> 00:44:23.724
they were turned out, you know, early
on with, you know, brothers and sisters

00:44:23.724 --> 00:44:30.144
and mothers and and sons and so you
get a lot of that kind of thing, right.

00:44:30.144 --> 00:44:30.924
Because there's no new

00:44:30.924 --> 00:44:32.214
Rupert Isaacson: stallion coming in and.

00:44:32.604 --> 00:44:33.054
Mark Rashid: Right.

00:44:33.234 --> 00:44:34.974
And we're seeing a lot of it Right.

00:44:34.974 --> 00:44:37.249
In the in the Mustang world as well.

00:44:37.549 --> 00:44:39.349
Rupert Isaacson: Well, that
was gonna be my next question.

00:44:40.009 --> 00:44:40.489
Okay.

00:44:41.539 --> 00:44:44.089
This is intriguing to me, and
I've actually got a horse that

00:44:44.089 --> 00:44:47.239
I'm working with right now who
I'm being suspecting this of.

00:44:48.029 --> 00:44:49.529
I'm working actually at a distance.

00:44:49.639 --> 00:44:51.019
But the horse seems

00:44:53.299 --> 00:44:54.769
impossibly spooky.

00:44:55.459 --> 00:44:55.549
Mm-hmm.

00:44:55.909 --> 00:44:56.569
Rupert Isaacson: Given

00:44:58.939 --> 00:45:01.609
all the good training and conditioning
he gets, and I know he does.

00:45:01.679 --> 00:45:04.649
I don't actually train
him on hands on myself.

00:45:04.649 --> 00:45:06.029
It's just a long distance thing I'm doing.

00:45:06.029 --> 00:45:09.029
But I, I know the person and I know
everything that they're doing is great,

00:45:09.569 --> 00:45:16.139
and the horse spooks and bolts out of
the blue consistently, and then you can

00:45:16.139 --> 00:45:20.039
recondition him, say, okay, oh, it's
this thing that you were afraid of.

00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:20.999
Let's go and look at this.

00:45:20.999 --> 00:45:22.079
And then he, oh, yeah, that's great.

00:45:22.109 --> 00:45:22.379
Okay.

00:45:22.799 --> 00:45:29.399
And then three, four months go
by and he'll do it again as if he

00:45:31.409 --> 00:45:33.869
hadn't ever seen that thing.

00:45:35.219 --> 00:45:40.199
And in a way that is so sort
of genuine that you know it,

00:45:40.199 --> 00:45:41.339
he's not just messing with you.

00:45:41.339 --> 00:45:42.059
Mm-hmm.

00:45:42.504 --> 00:45:45.479
Rupert Isaacson: And I was, you
know, in my mind I was going, mm.

00:45:45.689 --> 00:45:50.564
And then I, I found out that he's
from a very particular herd which

00:45:50.564 --> 00:45:53.144
has a, a very particular gene pool.

00:45:54.209 --> 00:45:56.279
But then I was thinking,
but could it be in breeding?

00:45:56.279 --> 00:45:58.379
Because you've, you've still
always got some stallions gonna

00:45:58.379 --> 00:45:59.429
wander over the hill, right.

00:45:59.429 --> 00:46:01.499
And, you know, introduce something new.

00:46:02.819 --> 00:46:05.249
So it doesn't take, do you think
this shows up in stallions given

00:46:05.249 --> 00:46:08.969
that in, in, in Mustangs, given that
they have access to outside genetics?

00:46:09.659 --> 00:46:11.009
Mark Rashid: Oh, that's
the way they're gathered.

00:46:12.209 --> 00:46:13.379
Ah, go on.

00:46:13.979 --> 00:46:20.489
Yeah, so what ends up happening is
they pull in all of these families and

00:46:20.489 --> 00:46:24.029
then they pull out the, what you might
call the most desirable, and then they

00:46:24.029 --> 00:46:27.869
kick the rest out and they, you, they
may be turning brothers and sisters

00:46:27.869 --> 00:46:31.589
out, they fathers and daughters out.

00:46:31.889 --> 00:46:38.159
And but we, in fact, we just worked
with one last summer that, here

00:46:38.249 --> 00:46:39.629
here's a really good example.

00:46:40.559 --> 00:46:46.529
So this horse they got this Mustang
when he was when he was I think a

00:46:46.529 --> 00:46:48.119
year old, a year and a half old.

00:46:48.119 --> 00:46:52.439
They got him and the
woman started him herself.

00:46:53.939 --> 00:46:57.959
And they actually, she didn't,
she had never started a horse

00:46:57.959 --> 00:47:00.329
before and they worked together.

00:47:01.469 --> 00:47:07.409
She brought him when he was three, I
believe, to, to one of our clinics.

00:47:08.699 --> 00:47:13.109
And they were struggling with some basic
stuff, but it wasn't anything major.

00:47:14.969 --> 00:47:16.379
We kind of got things lined out.

00:47:17.009 --> 00:47:20.069
She started riding him and doing
some pretty cool stuff with

00:47:20.069 --> 00:47:23.129
him, going out, camping with him
and doing that kind of thing.

00:47:23.129 --> 00:47:29.129
And then she all of a sudden outta the
blue last year I think, or the year

00:47:29.129 --> 00:47:37.739
before he started bolting, when she
would get on and or she'd be riding

00:47:37.739 --> 00:47:40.739
along and he would start to go a little
faster on the trail and pretty soon

00:47:40.739 --> 00:47:43.709
he would bolt just out of the blue.

00:47:43.829 --> 00:47:46.469
No, no rhyme or reason to it.

00:47:46.469 --> 00:47:48.149
Rupert Isaacson: This pretty
much describes the horse Yeah.

00:47:48.149 --> 00:47:48.959
That I'm, yeah.

00:47:48.964 --> 00:47:49.264
Talking about.

00:47:49.264 --> 00:47:49.544
Yeah.

00:47:50.579 --> 00:47:54.269
Mark Rashid: So then what happened
was she brought the horse to

00:47:54.269 --> 00:47:58.229
one of our instructors and, and
they started working together.

00:47:59.219 --> 00:48:05.729
And it took a long time, a year to
get him to where he wasn't bolting

00:48:05.729 --> 00:48:07.649
anymore off the mounting block.

00:48:08.969 --> 00:48:14.219
And, and he was still pretty quirky
and, you know, just handling him and,

00:48:14.759 --> 00:48:20.159
you know, he would bite at people and
just out of the blue, just interesting.

00:48:20.189 --> 00:48:23.969
Which, you know, his, his owners
said they, he had never done that

00:48:23.969 --> 00:48:28.469
before, but all of a sudden now he's
exhibiting that kind of behavior and

00:48:29.189 --> 00:48:34.469
anyway, so it, it looked like they
had the mounting thing taken care of.

00:48:35.759 --> 00:48:39.509
And last summer, the, the owners came.

00:48:40.064 --> 00:48:41.744
And they were gonna work with him.

00:48:43.664 --> 00:48:48.214
And the, her, the husband got on
this horse and he walked around.

00:48:48.214 --> 00:48:49.174
He was pretty okay.

00:48:50.104 --> 00:48:53.344
The very next day he went to put his
foot in a stir up and the horse bolted.

00:48:54.994 --> 00:49:03.184
And I had pretty much suspected before
that, that this was an inbred situation.

00:49:04.654 --> 00:49:09.504
And so I, you know, that was,
and there were some other things,

00:49:09.504 --> 00:49:11.064
some other indicators as well.

00:49:12.504 --> 00:49:17.124
But the interesting thing was they
had their dentist came in and did

00:49:17.124 --> 00:49:23.124
some work with on his teeth, and
she said this is independently that

00:49:23.784 --> 00:49:30.174
that his mouth was indicative of
a horse that was inbred because of

00:49:30.174 --> 00:49:32.004
the way the, the jaw was formed.

00:49:32.754 --> 00:49:33.204
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:49:33.924 --> 00:49:35.334
Mark Rashid: So what was the signs

00:49:35.334 --> 00:49:35.904
Rupert Isaacson: out of interest?

00:49:35.904 --> 00:49:37.704
What did, did, do you
remember what she pointed out?

00:49:37.704 --> 00:49:37.914
That

00:49:38.184 --> 00:49:43.864
Mark Rashid: narrow, a narrow jaw and
deformation of some of the molars and

00:49:43.864 --> 00:49:48.334
some of the other teeth that aren't
at the, at the correct angle, you

00:49:48.334 --> 00:49:51.304
know, that you really have to work to
get them at a, at the correct angle.

00:49:51.854 --> 00:49:54.854
But it's how the, how the teeth
are growing, not that somebody

00:49:54.854 --> 00:49:56.354
did, did bad dental work.

00:49:56.689 --> 00:49:57.109
Mm-hmm.

00:49:57.114 --> 00:49:57.764
Mm-hmm.

00:49:57.884 --> 00:49:58.334
Mark Rashid: So

00:49:59.864 --> 00:50:01.334
Rupert Isaacson: this is really revealing.

00:50:01.394 --> 00:50:03.164
And I guess this, this is why.

00:50:03.584 --> 00:50:07.154
You know, going back to my
question about what, why can't

00:50:07.154 --> 00:50:08.684
we get some neuroplasticity?

00:50:08.834 --> 00:50:12.884
But I think you sort of answered
that one, Chrissy, by saying,

00:50:12.884 --> 00:50:14.834
well, some of them actually yes.

00:50:14.834 --> 00:50:16.064
Within certain parameters.

00:50:16.064 --> 00:50:18.824
Like, okay, I might always have to
start from scratch when it's the lateral

00:50:18.824 --> 00:50:21.194
work, but as a trail horse, okay.

00:50:21.974 --> 00:50:27.134
Or a more extreme version as you
are describing, and this horse that

00:50:27.134 --> 00:50:31.614
I have been dealing with lately
where it's now just dangerous.

00:50:31.674 --> 00:50:35.865
And if there's neuroplasticity, it
seems to be fleeting, and then mm-hmm.

00:50:36.789 --> 00:50:40.194
It might be good for a while, but you
can never tell when it might reappear.

00:50:40.494 --> 00:50:43.944
The question that comes up in my mind, I
had no idea the podcast is gonna go this

00:50:43.944 --> 00:50:47.124
way, but I think anyone who's running
equine programs really needs to be

00:50:47.124 --> 00:50:52.284
aware of this, particularly in the USA
because the horses come in from exactly

00:50:52.284 --> 00:50:55.704
these kinds of donation points, right?

00:50:56.274 --> 00:51:00.804
People often find horses that they
can't quite work with or whatever.

00:51:00.804 --> 00:51:04.614
Or it was the, you know, horses
from the urine thing that were

00:51:04.614 --> 00:51:05.754
often coming on the market.

00:51:05.754 --> 00:51:07.764
And I had a few of those when I was
in the States, and some of them were

00:51:07.764 --> 00:51:09.114
grand, some of them were fantastic.

00:51:09.144 --> 00:51:09.234
Mm-hmm.

00:51:09.234 --> 00:51:09.534
Mark Rashid: Yeah.

00:51:09.539 --> 00:51:09.549
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:51:09.694 --> 00:51:13.084
Made great horses and, you
know, but I guess they, it

00:51:13.114 --> 00:51:14.344
was a, a bit of a crapshoot.

00:51:14.944 --> 00:51:18.034
But I, I was just thinking in my mind,
well, in England we don't have that

00:51:18.034 --> 00:51:19.474
problem and we have a lot of Mustangs.

00:51:19.474 --> 00:51:20.434
People always forget that.

00:51:20.434 --> 00:51:21.514
What are the English Mustangs?

00:51:21.814 --> 00:51:24.754
Every wild pony breed in
the uk, and there's mm-hmm.

00:51:25.264 --> 00:51:29.824
12 or or more of them has a wild
population that lives completely

00:51:29.884 --> 00:51:34.294
wild on the hill, including there's
a certain amount of winter kill that,

00:51:34.294 --> 00:51:38.104
you know, the Welsh ponies, the foul
ponies, the ex mos, the Dartmore, the

00:51:38.104 --> 00:51:43.474
Highlands, the Dales, the, you name
it, there's a wild population to these,

00:51:43.504 --> 00:51:46.204
the new forests, and they do roundups.

00:51:46.924 --> 00:51:47.014
Mm-hmm.

00:51:48.304 --> 00:51:51.814
Rupert Isaacson: And of course they select
what they want and send the rest back.

00:51:51.964 --> 00:51:54.994
But the way they muster them,
you're right, is very different.

00:51:55.594 --> 00:51:59.884
They tend to pre-select more or
less what they'd like to muster.

00:52:01.054 --> 00:52:04.624
And then they're not gonna be
turned out or held in pens where

00:52:05.674 --> 00:52:10.534
those family groups are gonna end
up somehow mating with each other.

00:52:11.194 --> 00:52:11.554
It's

00:52:13.954 --> 00:52:17.554
only a certain amount of them are
brought in from the open hill that

00:52:17.554 --> 00:52:19.114
have been to some degree preselected.

00:52:19.174 --> 00:52:20.464
And it's an ancient practice.

00:52:20.464 --> 00:52:21.394
It goes back, you know.

00:52:21.394 --> 00:52:21.484
Mm-hmm.

00:52:22.024 --> 00:52:23.529
Well over, over 2000 years or whatever.

00:52:23.589 --> 00:52:26.794
So people have certain commoners rights
to go and do that and blah, blah, blah.

00:52:27.574 --> 00:52:29.224
So the whole thing is quite selective.

00:52:29.434 --> 00:52:33.034
And it sounds like what you're saying
with the Mustangs is it's, and that,

00:52:33.034 --> 00:52:36.124
and perhaps with the Mustangs, it
was at a certain point like that, but

00:52:36.124 --> 00:52:37.834
it's become somewhat industrialized.

00:52:37.839 --> 00:52:38.209
Mark Rashid: Mm-hmm.

00:52:38.709 --> 00:52:38.929
Rupert Isaacson: And.

00:52:41.089 --> 00:52:42.009
Mark Rashid: I don't
think it's intentional.

00:52:42.009 --> 00:52:42.089
Yeah.

00:52:42.094 --> 00:52:42.104
Interesting.

00:52:42.854 --> 00:52:45.734
It's not, what they're doing
isn't, I don't think intentional.

00:52:46.124 --> 00:52:46.484
Yeah.

00:52:46.484 --> 00:52:46.724
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:52:46.724 --> 00:52:46.784
The

00:52:46.784 --> 00:52:51.104
Mark Rashid: way, the way that that
happens, I know a lot of folks in

00:52:51.104 --> 00:52:54.734
that, that in that program and the,
and the people who actually gather

00:52:55.544 --> 00:52:59.954
and contrary to popular belief,
these people are really conscientious

00:53:00.284 --> 00:53:00.434
mm-hmm.

00:53:00.674 --> 00:53:02.564
Mark Rashid: About trying
not to hurt the horses.

00:53:02.564 --> 00:53:07.814
Now there's people who would argue against
that, but the people that I know that are,

00:53:08.204 --> 00:53:13.934
that are involved in that program really
do have the horse's best interest in mind.

00:53:14.354 --> 00:53:19.134
It just, the way that the program
is set up, especially now it's

00:53:19.134 --> 00:53:22.614
just so indiscriminate that
that's kind of what happens.

00:53:23.484 --> 00:53:26.504
Rupert Isaacson: Do you, have you
noticed the pro the, this problem coming

00:53:26.504 --> 00:53:29.384
from any particular mustang herds?

00:53:29.384 --> 00:53:30.704
Do any spring to mind

00:53:32.054 --> 00:53:32.234
Mark Rashid: it?

00:53:32.324 --> 00:53:35.954
No, it really is, it's
pretty hit and miss.

00:53:35.954 --> 00:53:36.764
It really is.

00:53:36.764 --> 00:53:36.794
Okay.

00:53:37.104 --> 00:53:40.314
We've seen them from
all over the west that

00:53:40.319 --> 00:53:40.519
Yeah.

00:53:41.549 --> 00:53:44.124
Mark Rashid: You know, you get some
from this herd and they're great

00:53:44.124 --> 00:53:49.524
and, and then, you know, the next
year you get some from the same herd

00:53:49.524 --> 00:53:52.134
and it's, it's such a crapshoot.

00:53:52.494 --> 00:53:52.854
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

00:53:53.064 --> 00:53:53.334
Yeah.

00:53:53.544 --> 00:53:53.784
Yeah.

00:53:53.904 --> 00:53:57.504
You know, one of my best horses
was a Mustang, but he, he started

00:53:57.504 --> 00:54:01.794
life exactly as you'd had described
Uncatchable and this on that, but then.

00:54:04.059 --> 00:54:05.049
Turn out fantastic.

00:54:05.469 --> 00:54:09.579
Mark Rashid: You know, pretty quick
when they start making connections

00:54:10.029 --> 00:54:13.749
about what it is that we're asking
and how they can do the thing.

00:54:14.439 --> 00:54:18.699
Whether or not you're gonna have
a long term problem or you're

00:54:18.699 --> 00:54:20.979
gonna have a long term horse yes.

00:54:20.979 --> 00:54:24.459
That you can, that you can do
some really nice work with.

00:54:28.629 --> 00:54:35.169
Rupert Isaacson: The work that I
do, obviously with neuroplasticity

00:54:35.199 --> 00:54:40.089
in humans, with horses started with
autism, but now it, you know mm-hmm.

00:54:40.089 --> 00:54:41.859
It's more ubiquitous.

00:54:42.129 --> 00:54:45.489
I'm very much with you on this idea
that you must follow the individual.

00:54:45.489 --> 00:54:49.329
So every, every program we have,
we have three main programs.

00:54:49.329 --> 00:54:53.559
It's predicated on follow the child
and so therefore follow the horse in

00:54:53.559 --> 00:54:56.019
the preparation of that has to happen.

00:54:56.949 --> 00:55:03.639
However, at the same time, we do need
to be able to produce horses that

00:55:04.269 --> 00:55:08.859
have enough muscle on the top line to
take an adult with a child together.

00:55:09.589 --> 00:55:16.159
If the child is young, that can collect
because with collection, the hip rocking

00:55:16.819 --> 00:55:19.999
for the human on top produces oxytocin.

00:55:20.389 --> 00:55:21.979
Oxytocin is communication.

00:55:22.009 --> 00:55:22.069
Mm.

00:55:22.699 --> 00:55:24.109
Communication is what we're after.

00:55:24.619 --> 00:55:27.079
And that was how my son, you
know, became verbal on the horse.

00:55:27.079 --> 00:55:28.699
And then we realized that was going on.

00:55:28.699 --> 00:55:29.869
So, oh gosh, okay.

00:55:29.869 --> 00:55:31.129
We could replicate that.

00:55:31.709 --> 00:55:35.219
And then the neuroplasticity came
on top of that, the BDNF, the

00:55:35.219 --> 00:55:36.959
brain derived neurotrophic factor.

00:55:37.409 --> 00:55:40.259
So we do have to actually
work to a system.

00:55:40.929 --> 00:55:46.269
We work to an, a very, very old, old
masters classical system of in hand work

00:55:47.029 --> 00:55:52.189
to get the horse to really understand
before you ever get on his back, how

00:55:52.189 --> 00:55:53.569
to place those hind legs underneath.

00:55:53.569 --> 00:55:56.509
So it's just easy for them so that
by the time you do get up there,

00:55:57.289 --> 00:55:58.639
the horse kind of already knows.

00:55:58.909 --> 00:56:02.059
And then you have a person on
the ground and a person on top.

00:56:02.329 --> 00:56:05.419
So the person on the ground does the thing
the horse already knows, and then the

00:56:05.419 --> 00:56:09.139
person on top does the new thing, the,
the rider's aid and the horse kinda goes,

00:56:09.139 --> 00:56:10.909
oh, these two things mean the same thing.

00:56:10.939 --> 00:56:11.929
Okay, that's cool.

00:56:11.929 --> 00:56:14.179
I accept, and you get this
smoother learning curve.

00:56:14.179 --> 00:56:19.159
So we absolutely use a, a system
that's very old and at the same

00:56:19.159 --> 00:56:25.309
time, we are not ever going to not
tweak that system depending on the

00:56:25.309 --> 00:56:27.739
individual horse in front of us.

00:56:27.799 --> 00:56:32.089
Similarly, with the way we are working
with kids, we're going to set up the

00:56:32.089 --> 00:56:36.889
right environment with no hopefully
bad sensory triggers, hopefully.

00:56:37.279 --> 00:56:40.939
An asshole free environment, so the
kid isn't feeling threatened by humans.

00:56:41.469 --> 00:56:45.069
So we're not triggering the amygdala if
possible, you know, and then from their

00:56:45.069 --> 00:56:48.099
work on the sensory issues, and then from
that to the back riding for the oxytocin.

00:56:48.099 --> 00:56:50.979
And then from there we just
follow them wherever it goes.

00:56:52.089 --> 00:57:00.459
So we are always treading this line
between SOS system and anarchy.

00:57:01.449 --> 00:57:04.509
And that what we've realized
is you absolutely need both.

00:57:06.489 --> 00:57:11.919
What I see a lot of in both
the horse training and in the

00:57:11.979 --> 00:57:15.279
therapy world is extremism.

00:57:16.029 --> 00:57:21.549
So either rigidity in a system, whether
it's with horses or humans, like

00:57:21.549 --> 00:57:25.089
behavioralism with humans, could come
under that as well, which involves

00:57:25.089 --> 00:57:34.689
quite a lot of coercion and fear,
frankly, and nothing at all, which in

00:57:34.689 --> 00:57:40.899
some cases could work, but also won't
with in many cases because people, the

00:57:40.899 --> 00:57:42.549
brains like the brain like structure.

00:57:43.809 --> 00:57:47.169
And the same with, with, with, with horse
people that sometimes it's, you know,

00:57:47.229 --> 00:57:51.999
as you said, Chrissy, you know, very,
very rigid, somewhat fear based, you

00:57:51.999 --> 00:57:56.889
know, training things that kind of get
results, but not in a way that brings joy.

00:57:57.579 --> 00:58:00.969
And people then say, well, I'm gonna
throw all of that out the window.

00:58:02.064 --> 00:58:04.464
And then you get a horse that's
kind of bored, unemployed.

00:58:05.094 --> 00:58:09.624
And one of the things that I found
is, is often the biggest problem with

00:58:09.624 --> 00:58:13.104
horses that come to me when I'm wearing
my horse training hat, or kids when

00:58:13.104 --> 00:58:14.814
I'm wearing my kid hat, is boredom.

00:58:15.924 --> 00:58:19.434
Often there's this kind of
chronic, just lack of purpose.

00:58:20.094 --> 00:58:23.184
And then you go see a good cow horse
who absolutely knows what they're

00:58:23.184 --> 00:58:24.384
doing and they're like, they're happy.

00:58:24.594 --> 00:58:26.604
Or a good hunting horse that really
knows what it's in, they're kind of

00:58:26.604 --> 00:58:29.154
happy or a very good therapy horse
that really knows what it's in.

00:58:29.154 --> 00:58:29.904
They're kind of happy.

00:58:30.534 --> 00:58:32.874
But the ones that are kind
of, why, why am I here?

00:58:32.874 --> 00:58:33.324
What am I doing?

00:58:33.324 --> 00:58:33.564
You know?

00:58:34.764 --> 00:58:36.714
And of course, within
herds there are structures.

00:58:36.954 --> 00:58:41.214
They're fluid, they're not rigid, but
there are structures within human herds.

00:58:41.214 --> 00:58:41.844
There are structures.

00:58:41.844 --> 00:58:43.704
I've been lucky enough to live
with hunters and gatherers.

00:58:44.004 --> 00:58:45.924
So how do you, but they're fluid.

00:58:47.454 --> 00:58:48.564
Talk to us about this.

00:58:48.564 --> 00:58:53.064
'cause it's so easy in these conversations
to sound like one is coming down in

00:58:53.064 --> 00:58:57.354
one extreme or the other extreme as
if one is reacting to negative things.

00:58:57.954 --> 00:58:58.734
Does that make sense?

00:58:58.734 --> 00:59:03.954
Rather than looking for the center,
the eye of that paradox, how do you

00:59:03.954 --> 00:59:08.994
guys find the eye of that paradox
between structure and anarchy?

00:59:09.534 --> 00:59:12.414
Do you wanna lead with that one,
Chrissy, and then we'll go to Mark?

00:59:13.314 --> 00:59:13.674
Crissi McDonald: Sure.

00:59:14.934 --> 00:59:19.884
The first thing that comes to mind is we
see a lot of horses and a lot of people

00:59:19.884 --> 00:59:22.394
who are carrying, carrying muscle tension.

00:59:23.084 --> 00:59:25.934
So when we're taught to ride,
especially if we're taught to ride

00:59:26.144 --> 00:59:28.454
traditionally, it's shoulders back.

00:59:28.889 --> 00:59:33.509
Heels down, open your chest,
you know, stiffen your spine.

00:59:33.569 --> 00:59:33.839
Right.

00:59:33.839 --> 00:59:36.449
That I had equitation lessons for years.

00:59:36.959 --> 00:59:37.019
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

00:59:37.019 --> 00:59:37.020
Equitation.

00:59:37.074 --> 00:59:39.029
And we do this, we'll do that
funny bump thing with your butt.

00:59:39.029 --> 00:59:39.659
Yeah, yeah,

00:59:39.934 --> 00:59:40.654
Crissi McDonald: yeah, yeah.

00:59:40.739 --> 00:59:42.509
Stick out your butt, stick
out your chest, right?

00:59:42.509 --> 00:59:42.569
Yeah.

00:59:42.839 --> 00:59:43.529
All these things.

00:59:43.529 --> 00:59:43.709
Right.

00:59:43.709 --> 00:59:46.919
Well, what, what we're doing is
we're asking the person to be stiff.

00:59:47.249 --> 00:59:47.339
Mm-hmm.

00:59:47.639 --> 00:59:47.819
And

00:59:47.819 --> 00:59:50.669
Crissi McDonald: then if you add
in a little fear, now you have

00:59:50.669 --> 00:59:52.979
internal tension, external tension.

00:59:53.099 --> 00:59:58.259
Same thing with the horse in our search
to maybe create some structure for the

00:59:58.259 --> 01:00:00.479
horse, we actually build in tension.

01:00:01.229 --> 01:00:06.119
So inadvertently we're telling the horse,
in order to do this skill, let's say

01:00:06.419 --> 01:00:12.689
lower the head or go in collection, we
have interpreted that, not in all cases,

01:00:12.689 --> 01:00:16.139
because I know people such as yourself
are looking at something different.

01:00:16.619 --> 01:00:21.929
But in some cases, whether it's Western
or English or whatever we say, when

01:00:21.929 --> 01:00:24.929
you put your head down, I want you to
tense all the muscles in your neck.

01:00:25.379 --> 01:00:25.469
Yeah.

01:00:25.469 --> 01:00:25.679
Okay.

01:00:25.739 --> 01:00:30.329
Crissi McDonald: We inadvertently say that
we don't mean to make the horse tense.

01:00:31.169 --> 01:00:36.779
So when, so I would say out of 10
people who come to a clinic, probably

01:00:37.079 --> 01:00:40.169
eight of them, them and their horses
are carrying too much tension,

01:00:40.859 --> 01:00:43.589
muscle tension, and internal tension.

01:00:44.279 --> 01:00:44.429
Okay.

01:00:44.429 --> 01:00:45.359
So there's a pattern

01:00:45.364 --> 01:00:45.534
Rupert Isaacson: tension.

01:00:45.534 --> 01:00:45.814
Yeah.

01:00:45.814 --> 01:00:46.014
Yeah.

01:00:46.014 --> 01:00:47.054
And you can't separate two, right?

01:00:47.069 --> 01:00:47.519
Yeah, it's true.

01:00:47.849 --> 01:00:48.209
Crissi McDonald: Right.

01:00:48.209 --> 01:00:49.199
So there's, okay.

01:00:49.619 --> 01:00:51.029
I've seen that pattern before.

01:00:51.089 --> 01:00:52.589
So with one person.

01:00:53.264 --> 01:00:58.484
Horse, we might talk a lot about breathing
because neither of them are breathing.

01:00:59.024 --> 01:00:59.054
Mm.

01:00:59.624 --> 01:01:02.354
Crissi McDonald: With another
person in horse, we might have to

01:01:02.354 --> 01:01:07.664
say, all right, let's just show
you guys how to let go of tension.

01:01:08.084 --> 01:01:12.254
Which means one of us will take the
reins and hold the reins and the rider

01:01:12.254 --> 01:01:15.374
will show us the tension they have on
the reins, and then we can help the

01:01:15.374 --> 01:01:17.654
rider by saying, that's actually a lot.

01:01:17.654 --> 01:01:19.214
Can you cut that in half?

01:01:19.634 --> 01:01:19.994
Okay.

01:01:19.994 --> 01:01:21.674
Now try relaxing your shoulders.

01:01:21.674 --> 01:01:22.994
You know, we can walk them through.

01:01:23.594 --> 01:01:27.914
So there's the pattern, muscle
tension, horse and rider,

01:01:27.974 --> 01:01:29.684
internal tension, horse and rider.

01:01:30.734 --> 01:01:34.574
But the way that we talk to each
horse and rider is always different.

01:01:35.324 --> 01:01:40.304
We're not always gonna say to every,
well, we do say breathe to a lot of

01:01:40.304 --> 01:01:47.684
riders, but some horses may not need
to be shown how to let go of tension.

01:01:48.254 --> 01:01:48.644
Right.

01:01:48.854 --> 01:01:52.004
Crissi McDonald: The same way
every other horse has meaning.

01:01:52.004 --> 01:01:55.424
We put that our hands on the reins
and we hold pressure until they give.

01:01:55.634 --> 01:01:55.904
Right?

01:01:55.904 --> 01:02:00.074
That's the watered down
super simple version.

01:02:00.704 --> 01:02:04.484
It may be that the horse is carrying more
internal tension than muscle tension.

01:02:04.904 --> 01:02:06.524
So how do we help that horse feel safe?

01:02:07.244 --> 01:02:07.424
Mm-hmm.

01:02:07.454 --> 01:02:07.724
That's

01:02:07.724 --> 01:02:10.934
Crissi McDonald: different than
helping a horse understand the skill

01:02:10.934 --> 01:02:13.064
of when I feel pressure I give to it.

01:02:13.934 --> 01:02:17.624
It's, they're two different things,
but they have the same presentation.

01:02:18.584 --> 01:02:18.974
Is that.

01:02:19.379 --> 01:02:20.369
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah,
it makes perfect sense.

01:02:20.369 --> 01:02:20.609
It's a,

01:02:20.909 --> 01:02:21.329
Crissi McDonald: yeah.

01:02:21.659 --> 01:02:21.899
Yeah.

01:02:22.169 --> 01:02:23.519
I'll let Mark chime in.

01:02:26.879 --> 01:02:31.769
Mark Rashid: I think a big part of what
we do, and this, this also comes from

01:02:31.769 --> 01:02:33.449
my martial arts background, is that

01:02:35.489 --> 01:02:40.319
for me, the idea is to only use the amount
of muscle you need to use in order to do

01:02:40.319 --> 01:02:42.179
the job you're asking your body to do.

01:02:43.529 --> 01:02:44.639
Same thing with a horse.

01:02:45.029 --> 01:02:50.279
Can we, can we just use the muscle
we need to use in order to do the

01:02:50.279 --> 01:02:51.989
job we're asking the horse to do.

01:02:52.439 --> 01:02:57.419
More times than not, I mean, we,
going through our day, we often

01:02:57.419 --> 01:03:00.809
are using way more muscle than we
need to use to do simple things.

01:03:00.869 --> 01:03:07.469
Picking up the, you know, the teacup off
the, off the table, or putting the cup

01:03:07.469 --> 01:03:11.279
back down on the table where you hear a
kabang, you know, or closing the door.

01:03:11.279 --> 01:03:12.209
Opening the door,

01:03:12.809 --> 01:03:13.859
Rupert Isaacson: you know, we
use, and that could be informed

01:03:13.859 --> 01:03:15.059
by emotion as well, right?

01:03:15.419 --> 01:03:16.169
Mark Rashid: Absolutely.

01:03:16.229 --> 01:03:16.379
Yeah.

01:03:17.189 --> 01:03:23.429
And because we aren't aware that that's,
we're going through our life like that,

01:03:24.449 --> 01:03:27.989
you know, we're we, and when it comes
to working with horses, you know, we,

01:03:28.529 --> 01:03:33.269
we go through our daily activities like
a lumberjack, and then, and then we

01:03:33.269 --> 01:03:35.129
wanna be soft when we get to our horse.

01:03:35.129 --> 01:03:40.349
And it doesn't work that way, you know,
we, it's about, for me, it's about how do

01:03:40.349 --> 01:03:46.619
we help the individual become aware of.

01:03:47.444 --> 01:03:50.684
Maybe any physical or emotional
tension that they're carrying,

01:03:51.704 --> 01:03:54.914
and then take that into their day.

01:03:55.694 --> 01:04:02.144
Take that softness or internal softness
or internal awareness, take it into

01:04:02.144 --> 01:04:06.824
their day where they could be practicing
at 24 or 23 hours of the day, and

01:04:06.824 --> 01:04:09.434
then they can take it to their horse.

01:04:09.794 --> 01:04:10.004
You know?

01:04:10.004 --> 01:04:16.844
Then then riding with softness is easy
when you, when you're practicing it all

01:04:16.844 --> 01:04:18.344
day long and everything that you do.

01:04:19.544 --> 01:04:24.574
We had a, a, an instructor, one of our
instructors actually was at Chrissy's

01:04:24.574 --> 01:04:32.364
Dojo and he was retiring and I think
he was, I, I think he was, he had

01:04:32.364 --> 01:04:37.644
been training for 40 years and he was
gonna retire as a, as an instructor.

01:04:37.644 --> 01:04:43.584
And we were at his last class and he said,
you know, been training for 40 years.

01:04:43.824 --> 01:04:48.564
I spent the, the first 10 years
learning all the technique I needed

01:04:48.654 --> 01:04:53.094
that I would need to know in order
to do this, be an instructor.

01:04:53.544 --> 01:04:56.814
And I spent the last 30 years trying
to figure out how not to use it.

01:04:58.494 --> 01:05:00.324
And that really stuck with me.

01:05:00.894 --> 01:05:05.984
And that's, which is one of the reasons
we focus so much on, on principles,

01:05:06.764 --> 01:05:08.024
technique is really important.

01:05:08.024 --> 01:05:12.764
You gotta have it, you
know, but at some point.

01:05:13.364 --> 01:05:18.374
The goal, at least for me, is how can
I transcend that technique and do it

01:05:18.374 --> 01:05:26.444
in a more thoughtful feel-based way to
get the job done, whether it's with a

01:05:26.444 --> 01:05:29.024
person or whether it's with a horse.

01:05:30.404 --> 01:05:31.484
Rupert Isaacson: Let's bring it to people.

01:05:31.904 --> 01:05:35.734
So when I'm let's say we're doing
horse boy method session, right?

01:05:35.764 --> 01:05:43.014
And a person shows up, kid shows up, can
be an adult, and we think we're gonna

01:05:43.014 --> 01:05:45.564
work this way, perhaps with a horse.

01:05:45.714 --> 01:05:49.974
And the person very quickly shows they're
not interested in the horse at all.

01:05:50.754 --> 01:05:55.434
So we immediately would then
switch from horse point method

01:05:55.434 --> 01:05:56.604
to what we call movement method.

01:05:56.604 --> 01:05:57.084
No problem.

01:05:57.114 --> 01:05:59.244
We've just got a bazillion
other things to do.

01:05:59.664 --> 01:06:02.844
So we have to be really, really obsessive
about our horse preparation and willing

01:06:02.844 --> 01:06:05.574
to abandon the horse in two seconds
if that's not where the person's at.

01:06:06.114 --> 01:06:08.844
And therefore I need to know what
that person's actually interested in.

01:06:09.174 --> 01:06:11.514
So I can prepare a little bit.

01:06:11.904 --> 01:06:13.254
It's Mark Rashid coming.

01:06:13.404 --> 01:06:14.664
I know he likes Akido.

01:06:14.814 --> 01:06:16.284
I know, don't know from Akido.

01:06:16.284 --> 01:06:21.654
So I've got to get on Wikipedia and,
and to have accommodation about Akido

01:06:23.994 --> 01:06:27.324
and then be talking the language
to some degree of Martin Rashid

01:06:27.324 --> 01:06:30.864
when he comes in so that we could
then maybe go somewhere from that.

01:06:31.314 --> 01:06:34.074
But what I'm really after is
communication and neuroplasticity,

01:06:34.074 --> 01:06:35.274
whether it's coming with a horse or not.

01:06:36.564 --> 01:06:40.074
You guys are also working
with many other things.

01:06:40.104 --> 01:06:43.974
So you are working with martial arts
in particular, particularly Aikido.

01:06:44.214 --> 01:06:47.274
And it was intriguing to me back
earlier in the podcast you said, mark

01:06:47.374 --> 01:06:50.134
to find that softness you had to go
to the world, world of martial arts.

01:06:50.134 --> 01:06:51.994
So I haven't been in the
world of martial arts site.

01:06:51.994 --> 01:06:54.514
You've been in the worship world of
martial arts, but I've been a bit in

01:06:54.514 --> 01:06:59.164
the world of martial arts myself and I
didn't always encounter softness there.

01:06:59.974 --> 01:07:00.784
So

01:07:00.844 --> 01:07:02.344
Mark Rashid: not all, not
all martial arts are soft.

01:07:02.614 --> 01:07:03.274
Rupert Isaacson: Right, exactly.

01:07:03.274 --> 01:07:03.364
And

01:07:03.364 --> 01:07:04.744
Mark Rashid: aikido
doesn't have to be soft.

01:07:04.804 --> 01:07:05.464
Rupert Isaacson: Well, exactly.

01:07:05.464 --> 01:07:07.654
Not all Aikido people
I've met have been soft.

01:07:07.774 --> 01:07:07.954
Right.

01:07:08.324 --> 01:07:12.824
So, although more than
others, I would say.

01:07:13.244 --> 01:07:19.754
But how was it that you, a thought to
go to martial arts to look for softness?

01:07:19.754 --> 01:07:20.504
That's interesting.

01:07:20.714 --> 01:07:21.794
Perhaps counterintuitive.

01:07:22.604 --> 01:07:28.214
And then b, how did you find that?

01:07:28.214 --> 01:07:35.534
Softness Being able to be translated
across to the horse thing because

01:07:35.534 --> 01:07:37.334
when you do, people are doing the
horse thing, as you were saying,

01:07:37.334 --> 01:07:38.564
Chrissy, people are a bit scared.

01:07:38.564 --> 01:07:40.664
You know, you're up there, you're
often being judged too 'cause

01:07:40.664 --> 01:07:43.724
you're, you know, in a clinic or
you are in a training situation.

01:07:43.724 --> 01:07:45.884
So there's a bit of fear in
that, let alone the fear of

01:07:45.884 --> 01:07:46.844
falling off and getting killed.

01:07:47.114 --> 01:07:52.964
So, you know, how did you, why did you
think to go to the world of martial arts.

01:07:53.669 --> 01:07:54.359
For softness.

01:07:54.599 --> 01:07:59.249
And then once having found that softness,
how did you feel confident that you

01:07:59.249 --> 01:08:03.209
could bring that softness across to this
slightly fearful situation with horses?

01:08:04.949 --> 01:08:07.469
Mark Rashid: I didn't actually
think about going to martial arts.

01:08:07.499 --> 01:08:10.159
One of my students suggested it.

01:08:10.639 --> 01:08:11.539
Rupert Isaacson: Ah, okay.

01:08:12.199 --> 01:08:13.569
He and why, why did they suggest it?

01:08:14.169 --> 01:08:18.669
Mark Rashid: Well, I was working with
a guy, so we get mostly women in our

01:08:18.669 --> 01:08:25.879
clinics, and I was working, I was doing
a clinic in Tennessee, and we had one

01:08:25.879 --> 01:08:31.879
guy there who, he was writing a, a
Pasadena or Peruvian, one or the other,

01:08:32.419 --> 01:08:34.219
and he was just having a heck of a time.

01:08:34.219 --> 01:08:40.129
He just, this horse was trying as hard
as he could to get along with, with

01:08:40.129 --> 01:08:42.529
what this guy was asking him to do.

01:08:42.529 --> 01:08:45.769
But there was so much conflict
going on between the two of 'em.

01:08:47.029 --> 01:08:51.229
And finally I just stopped him and I said,
listen, everything that you want is here.

01:08:51.229 --> 01:08:51.979
It's right here.

01:08:52.669 --> 01:08:55.849
You've got all the energy,
everything that you need, everything

01:08:55.849 --> 01:08:57.799
that you want is in this horse.

01:08:57.829 --> 01:09:02.329
All you have to do is blend with the
energy and then give it some direction.

01:09:03.529 --> 01:09:08.059
And I said, I, I know it sounds like
Zen horseback riding, but it's not, you

01:09:08.059 --> 01:09:12.439
know, it's just, it's just about getting
together with him so that the two of you

01:09:12.439 --> 01:09:14.149
are doing the same thing at the same time.

01:09:14.149 --> 01:09:18.139
Right now your horse is doing one
thing and you're doing something else.

01:09:18.799 --> 01:09:20.569
How can we bring those
two things together?

01:09:20.569 --> 01:09:25.489
Well, he, he was looking at me
like, you know, like I was an

01:09:25.489 --> 01:09:26.959
idiot or something, you know?

01:09:27.799 --> 01:09:29.599
And because we don't get
you both look at me that

01:09:29.599 --> 01:09:29.809
Rupert Isaacson: way.

01:09:29.869 --> 01:09:30.199
Yeah, I

01:09:30.199 --> 01:09:30.439
Mark Rashid: know.

01:09:30.439 --> 01:09:31.699
I, I, I'm used to it.

01:09:31.819 --> 01:09:34.159
And that's how I, that's how
I noticed it to begin with.

01:09:34.159 --> 01:09:34.459
Right.

01:09:35.119 --> 01:09:40.269
So, but I, because we don't get,
and very many men, I thought,

01:09:40.269 --> 01:09:41.949
man, I got, I'm losing this guy.

01:09:42.369 --> 01:09:42.639
Mm-hmm.

01:09:43.029 --> 01:09:46.029
Mark Rashid: So I just kept talking, you
know, and finally I just said everything

01:09:46.029 --> 01:09:49.149
I thought to say and I said, do you,
do you understand what I'm saying?

01:09:49.779 --> 01:09:51.639
And he said, yeah, I understand
perfectly what you're saying.

01:09:51.669 --> 01:09:52.539
And he went out and did it.

01:09:52.689 --> 01:09:54.639
I mean, it was like somebody
flipped a switch and the two

01:09:54.639 --> 01:09:55.659
of 'em were on the same page.

01:09:57.369 --> 01:10:02.159
And after the ride he came up to me and
he said do you, do you train in I keto?

01:10:03.239 --> 01:10:06.929
And I said, no, I don't, I don't, I
didn't really even know what it was.

01:10:07.799 --> 01:10:11.159
And he said, well, I'm an I keto
instructor, and what you're teaching

01:10:11.159 --> 01:10:12.444
in your horsemanship is I keto.

01:10:14.129 --> 01:10:18.719
And it just so happens that one of
the top Aikido masters in the world

01:10:18.719 --> 01:10:20.609
lives about 45 minutes away from us.

01:10:21.449 --> 01:10:23.809
And he kept saying,
you need to go see him.

01:10:23.809 --> 01:10:25.009
You need to go work with him.

01:10:26.029 --> 01:10:30.019
And anyway, that's how and it turns
out that here in town, we, we live

01:10:30.019 --> 01:10:31.579
in a town of about 7,000 people.

01:10:32.479 --> 01:10:35.539
There was a really good, and
still is, in fact, I just trained

01:10:35.539 --> 01:10:37.399
with him last Thursday night.

01:10:38.059 --> 01:10:39.889
Amazing Aikido instructor.

01:10:40.729 --> 01:10:44.449
And so I went to him and I've
been training with him ever since.

01:10:45.349 --> 01:10:53.119
And so, and then how we bridged that gap
was I, I could see the, I could see the,

01:10:54.919 --> 01:11:03.379
the implications from the internal aspects
of the art and the softness part of it.

01:11:04.849 --> 01:11:08.749
I mean, it just crossed over
perfectly into horsemanship.

01:11:09.079 --> 01:11:16.699
And so I started showing people during
clinics some of those concepts and

01:11:16.699 --> 01:11:18.289
people got more and more interested.

01:11:18.289 --> 01:11:25.259
And finally about 16 years ago, we
developed ito, which is basically

01:11:25.259 --> 01:11:30.239
Aikido for horsemen, so that
you don't have to have any, any

01:11:30.629 --> 01:11:32.309
martial arts experience at all.

01:11:32.939 --> 01:11:37.579
And you can come in and, and
experience what we're talking about.

01:11:37.939 --> 01:11:38.779
Rupert Isaacson: How do I spell that?

01:11:39.079 --> 01:11:39.259
Ito

01:11:41.119 --> 01:11:48.439
Mark Rashid: A-I-B-A-D-O-E-A.

01:11:49.849 --> 01:11:52.009
B-O-A-A-I.

01:11:54.379 --> 01:11:54.529
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:11:54.559 --> 01:11:55.159
Mark Rashid: BA,

01:11:55.549 --> 01:11:56.059
Rupert Isaacson: BA.

01:11:56.479 --> 01:11:56.659
Yeah.

01:11:57.499 --> 01:12:00.349
Mark Rashid: DOI.

01:12:00.349 --> 01:12:01.434
Rupert Isaacson: Babe, I iaba.

01:12:01.794 --> 01:12:01.914
Mark Rashid: I

01:12:04.249 --> 01:12:04.609
Rupert Isaacson: do.

01:12:05.329 --> 01:12:06.259
The D ibo.

01:12:06.739 --> 01:12:07.279
Interesting.

01:12:07.279 --> 01:12:07.339
Yeah.

01:12:07.399 --> 01:12:07.879
Okay.

01:12:08.419 --> 01:12:15.109
And the what, what's the
B and the A standing for,

01:12:16.589 --> 01:12:20.909
Mark Rashid: IBO is basically
what it, what it means depending

01:12:20.909 --> 01:12:22.589
on the kanji that you use.

01:12:23.189 --> 01:12:26.699
It either means a way of
being with horses Okay.

01:12:26.999 --> 01:12:28.619
Or for the love of the horse.

01:12:29.069 --> 01:12:29.879
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

01:12:30.359 --> 01:12:33.599
Mark Rashid: And so the kgi that we
use is for the love of the horse.

01:12:34.859 --> 01:12:41.069
Rupert Isaacson: Why do you think despite
that man's background in Aikido, that

01:12:41.759 --> 01:12:46.529
he, it hadn't occurred to him to blend
with the horse's energy in that way

01:12:49.019 --> 01:12:50.969
Mark Rashid: because he had
been taught something else

01:12:50.969 --> 01:12:52.169
when it came to horsemanship.

01:12:52.589 --> 01:12:52.799
Okay.

01:12:53.579 --> 01:12:59.039
He had been following some instructors,
some big name instructors, who were

01:12:59.879 --> 01:13:05.459
basically saying that, you know, that this
is how you do it when it comes to horses.

01:13:05.459 --> 01:13:08.609
And so he just, he never made
the connection between the two.

01:13:09.299 --> 01:13:09.449
Okay.

01:13:09.719 --> 01:13:13.589
Because he had been taught that, you know,
it's kinda like with what Chrissy was

01:13:13.589 --> 01:13:18.569
saying earlier, where the work that she
was doing, you know, it didn't feel right

01:13:18.629 --> 01:13:26.789
and it, and it didn't feel right to this
guy, but he's not, he doesn't know as much

01:13:26.789 --> 01:13:28.649
about horses as these other people did.

01:13:29.129 --> 01:13:29.849
So he was.

01:13:31.034 --> 01:13:34.034
He didn't rely on his instincts,
he just went the other direction.

01:13:34.394 --> 01:13:36.074
Rupert Isaacson: It's so interesting,
the human brain, isn't it?

01:13:36.264 --> 01:13:36.534
Isn't it?

01:13:36.804 --> 01:13:37.164
Yeah.

01:13:37.684 --> 01:13:40.444
I mean we've, we've all done this, but
it's always intriguing, you know, how

01:13:40.444 --> 01:13:42.184
people find their, navigate these things.

01:13:42.514 --> 01:13:48.384
You know, Chrissy, you, you, you do a lot
with photography and how do you use that?

01:13:48.444 --> 01:13:52.664
It's, it's an intriguing thing to me at
the moment because I use it sometimes

01:13:52.664 --> 01:13:58.374
with tracking with getting people
to notice stuff about nature, right?

01:13:58.374 --> 01:14:04.194
Just literally take a picture and
let's look at how many species

01:14:04.194 --> 01:14:08.754
are on there or what's it of, or
what is that leaf or whatever.

01:14:09.624 --> 01:14:11.724
I thought I was very original.

01:14:12.544 --> 01:14:16.354
And then just was doing a podcast
about a week ago with an amazing

01:14:16.514 --> 01:14:19.504
woman called Emma Hutchinson who runs
something called Horseback UK up in the

01:14:19.504 --> 01:14:25.234
highlands of Scotland, mostly working
with trauma, and they do a ton with

01:14:25.234 --> 01:14:29.104
photography and nature photography for
getting people into the present moment.

01:14:29.374 --> 01:14:33.904
And she's taken it, of course,
much, much further than I have.

01:14:34.504 --> 01:14:36.664
But it's now, it's intriguing to me.

01:14:36.664 --> 01:14:47.569
And I I wonder how you are using visual
arts to help people with themselves.

01:14:47.914 --> 01:14:51.334
Their horses and their horse, human

01:14:53.674 --> 01:14:54.184
organism.

01:14:54.184 --> 01:14:57.864
Crissi McDonald: Well, that's, that's
very interesting because I had not

01:14:58.764 --> 01:15:04.554
contemplated sharing it in a clinic
situation because we're focused

01:15:04.554 --> 01:15:07.704
on the horsemanship part of it.

01:15:08.564 --> 01:15:10.784
And also the internal
part of it for people.

01:15:10.934 --> 01:15:15.404
But the way that, you know, I've
been taking photographs since I

01:15:15.404 --> 01:15:20.234
was, I won a camera, one of the
very few lotteries I've ever won.

01:15:20.234 --> 01:15:22.544
I won a little 35 milli camera.

01:15:22.544 --> 01:15:24.314
This is when film was still being used.

01:15:25.064 --> 01:15:27.284
And I, so I've been taking
pictures since I was 12.

01:15:28.844 --> 01:15:33.404
And I personally use it as a
way to keep a connection with

01:15:33.404 --> 01:15:35.024
the creative part of myself.

01:15:35.144 --> 01:15:40.634
So I don't get into the, you know,
the analytical system part of the

01:15:40.634 --> 01:15:46.124
brain, which is also very useful,
but it's, it's not the whole picture.

01:15:47.174 --> 01:15:53.984
So I tend to be high anxiety and
my photography practice is to help

01:15:53.984 --> 01:15:59.024
me reconnect with my creativity in
order to lower the anxious response.

01:15:59.114 --> 01:16:03.824
So as an instructor, I want
to live what I'm teaching.

01:16:04.124 --> 01:16:07.634
That's very important to me,
that I don't just tell someone.

01:16:09.104 --> 01:16:12.974
You know, I don't say to someone,
well, if you did this and this, your

01:16:12.974 --> 01:16:14.804
anxiety might be a little lower.

01:16:15.314 --> 01:16:18.824
It's really important to me that
if I have something in me that is

01:16:18.824 --> 01:16:23.864
challenging me, that I find ways
to work with it and understand it.

01:16:25.124 --> 01:16:29.804
And so that's what photography has
been for me, is, is walking my talk.

01:16:30.134 --> 01:16:30.704
Basically.

01:16:30.764 --> 01:16:37.274
I love the idea of connecting it to
how people see the world, because when

01:16:37.274 --> 01:16:40.184
you look through a lens, when you're,
when you have an actual camera, where

01:16:40.184 --> 01:16:44.354
you're looking through a lens, not
just a phone, it's a much different

01:16:44.414 --> 01:16:47.594
way of looking at the world, and you
have to make adjustments in order to

01:16:47.594 --> 01:16:53.054
get what you're seeing in your head to
match what comes out on the picture.

01:16:53.744 --> 01:16:55.844
And I think that's,
that's really intriguing.

01:16:55.844 --> 01:17:00.224
I'm glad people, I'm thrilled that
you're doing that and other people are

01:17:00.224 --> 01:17:05.229
doing that because visual arts are very,
they're engaging in differently ways.

01:17:05.229 --> 01:17:05.749
Perspective taking.

01:17:05.749 --> 01:17:05.949
Right.

01:17:05.949 --> 01:17:07.349
Rupert Isaacson: Perspective
taking is brain building.

01:17:07.369 --> 01:17:07.589
Yes.

01:17:07.589 --> 01:17:07.869
Right.

01:17:07.869 --> 01:17:08.149
Yeah.

01:17:08.209 --> 01:17:08.429
Yes,

01:17:09.129 --> 01:17:09.349
Crissi McDonald: yes.

01:17:09.609 --> 01:17:10.874
So I use it personally.

01:17:10.874 --> 01:17:13.664
I don't, I haven't thought
about extrapolating it out.

01:17:14.624 --> 01:17:17.174
Rupert Isaacson: I'd be intrigued
to see what you did with it

01:17:17.204 --> 01:17:19.124
if you do extrapolate it out.

01:17:19.124 --> 01:17:19.929
I, I, mm-hmm.

01:17:20.354 --> 01:17:26.804
If you were to take a, a test case
of a clinic and just experiment,

01:17:26.804 --> 01:17:29.624
I'd be very, with the pe,
with yourself and with others.

01:17:30.464 --> 01:17:30.584
Mm-hmm.

01:17:30.884 --> 01:17:31.604
Rupert Isaacson: In whatever way.

01:17:31.604 --> 01:17:33.014
It's, you know, I'd be very, very.

01:17:33.329 --> 01:17:35.759
Interested to see what comes out
of what you guys do with that.

01:17:35.969 --> 01:17:38.249
Crissi McDonald: That might be
a whole different type of clinic

01:17:38.249 --> 01:17:44.459
format that might be like a three day
clinic exploring this aspect of it.

01:17:44.669 --> 01:17:44.699
Mm.

01:17:44.699 --> 01:17:45.749
That's a really good idea.

01:17:45.779 --> 01:17:46.109
Thank you.

01:17:46.109 --> 01:17:46.529
Rupert?

01:17:46.739 --> 01:17:48.239
Rupert Isaacson: I want 30%, I mean 50.

01:17:48.239 --> 01:17:48.569
Sorry.

01:17:48.749 --> 01:17:49.319
Crissi McDonald: Oh, okay.

01:17:49.649 --> 01:17:50.069
Okay.

01:17:50.069 --> 01:17:50.219
Yeah.

01:17:50.219 --> 01:17:51.059
Four, well, 45.

01:17:51.449 --> 01:17:51.869
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:17:51.869 --> 01:17:52.739
Talk to my boss.

01:17:52.739 --> 01:17:53.069
That's alright.

01:17:53.584 --> 01:17:53.874
Okay.

01:17:55.109 --> 01:18:00.669
if you're a horse nerd, and if you're on
this podcast, I'm guessing you are, then

01:18:00.679 --> 01:18:05.669
you've probably also always wondered a
little bit about the old master system.

01:18:06.134 --> 01:18:07.444
of dressage training.

01:18:07.484 --> 01:18:16.054
If you go and check out our Helios Harmony
program, we outline there step by step

01:18:16.124 --> 01:18:22.404
exactly how to train your horse from
the ground to become the dressage horse

01:18:22.414 --> 01:18:28.934
of your dreams in a way that absolutely
serves the physical, mental and emotional

01:18:28.984 --> 01:18:31.754
well being of the horse and the rider.

01:18:31.814 --> 01:18:32.554
Intrigued?

01:18:32.754 --> 01:18:33.614
Like to know more?

01:18:34.484 --> 01:18:37.314
Go to our website, Helios Harmony.

01:18:39.014 --> 01:18:40.704
Check out the free introduction course.

01:18:41.264 --> 01:18:41.784
Take it from there.

01:18:42.288 --> 01:18:46.158
The, the, the other thing that I know is
a really big part of your lives is music.

01:18:46.488 --> 01:18:51.028
And again this is so interesting 'cause
music, as we know, to get coherence out of

01:18:51.028 --> 01:18:53.128
an instrument, there has to be structure.

01:18:53.998 --> 01:18:56.698
I mean, not always, but it sure helps.

01:18:57.128 --> 01:19:00.728
It's very difficult to shred on
a guitar if you're not having got

01:19:01.298 --> 01:19:03.338
a base, a basis to shred from.

01:19:03.788 --> 01:19:06.698
And at the same time, you can
also completely channel the

01:19:06.698 --> 01:19:08.438
collective unconscious as well.

01:19:09.278 --> 01:19:17.378
How do you a, find music informs
better horse and human ship

01:19:19.928 --> 01:19:20.588
in yourselves?

01:19:20.588 --> 01:19:25.268
And how do you bring that, if you do
bring that into your interactions with

01:19:25.268 --> 01:19:26.558
the people and horses that come to you?

01:19:27.728 --> 01:19:29.168
Do you wanna kick off with that one Mark?

01:19:31.878 --> 01:19:34.968
Mark Rashid: Well for me
everything is connected.

01:19:34.968 --> 01:19:38.418
So, when I'm building
guitars, for instance,

01:19:39.228 --> 01:19:40.038
I will.

01:19:41.088 --> 01:19:50.388
The finished product begins with just
a slab of wood, basically, and the

01:19:50.388 --> 01:19:56.088
way that you shape the wood and the
thickness that you have, and the type of

01:19:56.088 --> 01:20:00.678
bracing you put in the guitar, and how
you shape the braces and all of that.

01:20:01.458 --> 01:20:05.208
And you're, you're constantly
checking every step of the way.

01:20:06.708 --> 01:20:09.828
And you never know how this
guitar is gonna sound until you

01:20:10.578 --> 01:20:13.068
string it up for the first time.

01:20:14.238 --> 01:20:19.338
But everything that you do from the
beginning of, of, you know, getting

01:20:19.338 --> 01:20:26.208
a slab of wood to stringing the
guitar, everything is about what is

01:20:26.208 --> 01:20:28.038
this gonna sound like when it's done?

01:20:29.268 --> 01:20:35.058
And every part that you shape has to
fit into another part, and it has to

01:20:35.088 --> 01:20:40.788
fit pretty exactly in order for it
to be the instrument that you want.

01:20:42.408 --> 01:20:46.578
And so, I, I look at my
horsemanship in the same way

01:20:47.688 --> 01:20:50.748
that we're building a foundation.

01:20:51.498 --> 01:20:56.238
And if we skip any part of this, this
thing isn't gonna play very well.

01:20:56.778 --> 01:20:58.278
Or it may not sound very good

01:21:00.468 --> 01:21:04.428
and every step along the way,
the guitar maybe doesn't look

01:21:04.428 --> 01:21:06.678
good when you're building.

01:21:07.518 --> 01:21:07.968
Right.

01:21:08.088 --> 01:21:13.698
And because, you know, it hasn't been
sanded yet, or, you know, we haven't

01:21:13.698 --> 01:21:17.088
shaped this part, or we didn't get the
binding on just right, and we're gonna

01:21:17.088 --> 01:21:18.528
have to maybe take it off and do it again.

01:21:19.038 --> 01:21:24.708
But the whole point is that in
order for this guitar to play

01:21:24.708 --> 01:21:30.948
well and sound good every step of
the way, we have to be mindful.

01:21:32.328 --> 01:21:37.998
And so by the time we actually play
the guitar, and for me, I'm self-taught

01:21:38.808 --> 01:21:44.138
and I actually had a head, head injury
back in the early 1990s, and I en

01:21:44.198 --> 01:21:47.138
and I ended up having to learn how
to play the guitar all over again.

01:21:48.398 --> 01:21:51.768
And that among other things that
caused some problems for me.

01:21:51.768 --> 01:21:55.158
But but again, it's about

01:21:57.318 --> 01:21:59.148
when you're learning how to play.

01:22:00.138 --> 01:22:03.378
I think the mistake that a lot of people
make, and the same thing with horsemanship

01:22:04.338 --> 01:22:09.168
is that when you're learning how to
play, if you don't hit the right note

01:22:09.168 --> 01:22:15.078
and you keep going, that wrong note
is gonna still be in that, that's what

01:22:15.078 --> 01:22:17.208
you, you just created that pathway.

01:22:18.228 --> 01:22:20.148
You put the wrong note in the pathway.

01:22:21.198 --> 01:22:25.908
If you get to that note and it's
not the right one and you stop.

01:22:27.318 --> 01:22:31.158
You put the right note in and then you
go back and play all the way to that

01:22:31.158 --> 01:22:34.698
note and it's the right note, and then
you keep going, then that will go in.

01:22:35.778 --> 01:22:40.668
So the whole, it's, it's exactly
the same thing that we want

01:22:40.668 --> 01:22:41.898
to do with our horsemanship.

01:22:42.648 --> 01:22:45.828
We wanna get it as, as correct as we can.

01:22:47.118 --> 01:22:48.318
So that that's what's going.

01:22:48.318 --> 01:22:52.308
So when we're teaching a horse something,
we don't necessarily want it to be

01:22:52.308 --> 01:22:56.808
perfect, but we want it to be pretty
close so that the horse knows that

01:22:56.808 --> 01:23:01.158
that search that they were doing for,
to get to the answer is in the right

01:23:01.158 --> 01:23:03.978
direction and then we can build on it.

01:23:05.088 --> 01:23:08.808
So, you know, horsemanship so
often is about looking for the

01:23:08.808 --> 01:23:12.498
bad that the horse is doing so we
can fix it instead of looking for

01:23:12.498 --> 01:23:14.058
the good so we can build on it.

01:23:15.138 --> 01:23:20.448
And so what we are trying to do is
find the good in the people and in the

01:23:20.448 --> 01:23:25.038
horses so that we can build on it and
then you can make your music right.

01:23:25.578 --> 01:23:25.908
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:23:26.028 --> 01:23:28.128
It's funny, there's, there's
two things that leap to mind.

01:23:28.208 --> 01:23:31.468
The first thing what you're saying,
looking for what's right someone gave

01:23:31.468 --> 01:23:35.338
me a really great piece of advice
about leadership and they said,

01:23:35.398 --> 01:23:37.198
catch people doing something right.

01:23:37.198 --> 01:23:37.948
Mm-hmm.

01:23:39.118 --> 01:23:39.853
Rupert Isaacson: I was like, oh my god.

01:23:40.048 --> 01:23:40.738
Yeah, of course.

01:23:40.738 --> 01:23:44.848
You know, the other thing is when you're
talking about leading up to that note,

01:23:45.868 --> 01:23:47.368
I'm also self-taught on the guitar.

01:23:47.908 --> 01:23:49.218
And so I've.

01:23:49.623 --> 01:23:51.483
Definitely put those
wrong note pathways in.

01:23:52.233 --> 01:24:00.603
And what I find is that, as you say,
but you just, you just explained it very

01:24:00.603 --> 01:24:04.323
well, if you allow yourself to pause,

01:24:05.707 --> 01:24:11.107
put in that note as an isolated
note, regroup, come back to there.

01:24:11.437 --> 01:24:12.577
You might have to pause again.

01:24:12.577 --> 01:24:13.777
You might have to pause
again several times.

01:24:13.777 --> 01:24:17.347
So you will be dealing with the
frustration of, I can't play the melody

01:24:18.868 --> 01:24:20.968
as long as that is one's desire,

01:24:23.098 --> 01:24:26.488
I can't do the exercise
on the horse or whatever.

01:24:26.668 --> 01:24:26.758
Mark Rashid: Mm-hmm.

01:24:27.748 --> 01:24:31.228
Rupert Isaacson: Rather than saying,
I'm playing around with the concepts

01:24:31.228 --> 01:24:36.718
of this exercise on the horse, and up
until this point I'm fairly comfortable,

01:24:37.018 --> 01:24:41.218
then it will help, it helps me if I
can pause and I might have to pause

01:24:41.548 --> 01:24:45.478
quite a few times, but this idea of
allowing yourself and the horse to stop,

01:24:45.478 --> 01:24:52.138
I I've realized more and more and more
the absolute necessity of this, but

01:24:52.168 --> 01:24:54.808
it wasn't what I was brought up with.

01:24:54.853 --> 01:24:58.768
And, and it can be so difficult when
you're working with instructors because

01:24:58.768 --> 01:25:03.208
the instructor, of course, actually in
good faith feels that they have to give

01:25:03.208 --> 01:25:07.468
you your money's worth and help you
get through and achieve that exercise.

01:25:09.028 --> 01:25:12.958
So maybe it's a clunky shoulders
in or a, as you say, with a lot

01:25:12.958 --> 01:25:15.388
of tension, whatever it is, it's
just got a lot of tension in it.

01:25:16.138 --> 01:25:22.078
And so, or it breaks down
completely, neither of which is

01:25:22.078 --> 01:25:23.248
what we're actually looking for.

01:25:24.418 --> 01:25:27.418
But the rider feels, well, I
can't pause, I can't advocate

01:25:27.418 --> 01:25:28.978
for myself to ask for this pause.

01:25:29.008 --> 01:25:32.638
Maybe I don't even know in my mind that
I need, that the horse is just going,

01:25:33.478 --> 01:25:37.378
well, horses might be nice, but that's not
an option that's ever been on my table.

01:25:38.218 --> 01:25:40.498
And there's this idea that
we must ride through it.

01:25:40.498 --> 01:25:41.608
We must keep going.

01:25:41.608 --> 01:25:50.278
And so talk to me a little bit about
the value of stopping and regrouping

01:25:50.278 --> 01:25:54.748
and pausing, because I do think this
is something that bears a little

01:25:54.748 --> 01:25:58.528
bit of conversation and this idea
of sort of letting yourself and the

01:25:58.528 --> 01:26:02.248
horse off the hook and perhaps the
person you're working with rather

01:26:02.248 --> 01:26:03.718
than constantly being on the hook.

01:26:04.048 --> 01:26:08.068
But that, again, it's not a, it's not
an extreme thing that being off the hook

01:26:08.068 --> 01:26:09.688
means you abandoned the whole thing.

01:26:10.708 --> 01:26:11.578
No, no.

01:26:11.578 --> 01:26:14.848
But we, we realize that
sometimes we have to stop and

01:26:14.848 --> 01:26:15.868
rest on the way up the mountain.

01:26:15.868 --> 01:26:19.048
So, Chrissy, talk, talk to us about this.

01:26:19.078 --> 01:26:20.878
You must, you, you must
encounter this a lot.

01:26:21.403 --> 01:26:24.103
With yourself and with people you're
working, particularly as you, you're

01:26:24.103 --> 01:26:26.083
self described as you know, with anxiety.

01:26:26.563 --> 01:26:26.653
Mm-hmm.

01:26:26.653 --> 01:26:30.463
And as we know with anxiety, often
comes a certain adrenaline and then

01:26:30.463 --> 01:26:33.463
a desire to kind of rush through,
like a horse that's intimidated by

01:26:33.463 --> 01:26:36.583
jumping will rush the fence to kind
of get it over with to some degree.

01:26:36.583 --> 01:26:39.463
And we, we have this human
response as well in us.

01:26:39.673 --> 01:26:39.763
Mm-hmm.

01:26:39.823 --> 01:26:44.023
So talk to me about the other slow
down, the pauses, the regroup.

01:26:46.053 --> 01:26:50.553
Crissi McDonald: As an instructor, if
someone asks me a question, I say, let's

01:26:50.553 --> 01:26:53.613
say my horse isn't backing up very well.

01:26:54.153 --> 01:26:54.603
Okay.

01:26:55.538 --> 01:27:00.153
So we take a look at that and everything
is tight and the horse isn't backing up.

01:27:02.133 --> 01:27:07.563
The person in their mind has a picture
of the horse going backwards, right?

01:27:07.863 --> 01:27:10.353
Until they're asked to stop,
just back, back, back, back,

01:27:10.353 --> 01:27:11.433
back, back, back, back, back.

01:27:11.943 --> 01:27:12.933
But that's the goal.

01:27:13.893 --> 01:27:18.393
And what I see a lot is as, as people,
we are so goal oriented that we wanna

01:27:18.393 --> 01:27:23.463
start with the goal instead of, like
you were talking about, there's this

01:27:23.463 --> 01:27:28.203
piece right here that needs to be in
place before I can get to that goal.

01:27:28.233 --> 01:27:34.383
Matter of fact, there's about 15 or 20
pieces, and the value of the pause is, is

01:27:34.383 --> 01:27:39.963
that in teaching the backup, we can look
at that worsen rider and say, okay, the

01:27:39.963 --> 01:27:42.123
very first piece we need is relaxation.

01:27:43.773 --> 01:27:46.263
It doesn't matter if the
feet move, it doesn't matter.

01:27:47.418 --> 01:27:51.018
But what we're seeing is the person
has an idea, let's back up, and

01:27:51.018 --> 01:27:55.128
then everything in the person tenses
and then the horse tenses behind.

01:27:55.668 --> 01:27:55.728
Okay.

01:27:55.728 --> 01:28:01.668
So for that horse and rider, it might
be, can we relax as our very first step?

01:28:02.928 --> 01:28:06.948
The pause comes as a way to
tell the horse, yes, I'm looking

01:28:06.948 --> 01:28:08.628
for relaxation in the movement.

01:28:09.978 --> 01:28:10.248
Right?

01:28:10.248 --> 01:28:14.598
So that's the value of the pause when it
comes to people, the value of the pause.

01:28:14.628 --> 01:28:20.898
As, as an instructor, what I see is if
we offer information and let people work

01:28:20.898 --> 01:28:26.418
through it at their own pace, they're
likely to retain it rather than forget it.

01:28:27.228 --> 01:28:32.658
And as it is in an hour long lesson,
we may only remember 20% on a good day.

01:28:32.658 --> 01:28:32.718
Yeah.

01:28:33.468 --> 01:28:37.738
So there's no, there's, mark has this
saying, which I love he said, people

01:28:37.738 --> 01:28:42.208
don't care how much, you know, they
just want to know if you can help them.

01:28:43.408 --> 01:28:46.738
And I, I told him, I'm always so grateful
that they, that he doesn't say, they just

01:28:46.738 --> 01:28:50.758
wanna know how much you care, because
that's, it's a little too hallmark for me.

01:28:51.118 --> 01:28:54.718
But I really like that, that, you know,
it doesn't matter how much we know, how

01:28:54.718 --> 01:28:59.668
much experience we have, what matters
when people come to us for help is that

01:28:59.668 --> 01:29:01.288
we have something that can help them.

01:29:01.918 --> 01:29:06.208
And so this person doesn't need to
know about the hours I spent studying

01:29:06.208 --> 01:29:10.288
brain science in order to offer
them the one piece of information

01:29:10.288 --> 01:29:11.698
that will help them make a change.

01:29:11.698 --> 01:29:11.758
I.

01:29:12.658 --> 01:29:13.588
They don't need to know that.

01:29:13.588 --> 01:29:14.968
They don't need to know
the books I've read.

01:29:14.968 --> 01:29:18.148
They all they need is, let's try this.

01:29:18.538 --> 01:29:20.488
And then I shut up so they can do it.

01:29:21.268 --> 01:29:24.868
So I'm not constantly bombarding
them with information.

01:29:24.868 --> 01:29:28.558
And when you said that as instructors,
we wanna give them their money's

01:29:28.558 --> 01:29:30.478
worth, there's absolutely that part.

01:29:31.408 --> 01:29:37.018
And if we teach a certain way, they will
naturally get what they're coming for.

01:29:38.278 --> 01:29:40.408
You know, it's, it's, they're
not paying for everything.

01:29:40.408 --> 01:29:44.038
I know they're paying for
help for their own challenge.

01:29:47.158 --> 01:29:51.478
So I always, I always think of pause
as a is, you know, it's a gift really,

01:29:51.628 --> 01:29:54.088
because we have no pauses in our culture.

01:29:54.598 --> 01:29:57.958
Everything is 24 7 full on fast.

01:29:58.648 --> 01:30:00.958
We have to create the pauses ourself.

01:30:01.288 --> 01:30:04.828
And so pausing as an
instructor is a practice.

01:30:05.638 --> 01:30:11.158
And then being able to also offer
myself that is another practice.

01:30:11.488 --> 01:30:14.668
Same principle, different, different uses

01:30:15.988 --> 01:30:18.678
Rupert Isaacson: in all of our programs,
we have a series of guidelines and one

01:30:18.678 --> 01:30:23.358
of them is eight and one of them is time
for innovation, which is really pausing.

01:30:24.028 --> 01:30:27.418
And you, we really should
call it time for myelination.

01:30:27.463 --> 01:30:27.523
Yeah.

01:30:28.363 --> 01:30:31.708
To pause and allow the
brain to, you know, as Dr.

01:30:31.708 --> 01:30:34.213
Peters would say, by the way,
listeners, if you haven't

01:30:34.213 --> 01:30:36.083
listened to the podcast with Dr.

01:30:36.083 --> 01:30:39.823
Stephen Peters, get your ears
asses onto that because he's

01:30:40.093 --> 01:30:42.073
just the most fascinating man.

01:30:42.133 --> 01:30:43.513
Neuroscientist, neurologist.

01:30:43.513 --> 01:30:43.573
Yeah.

01:30:43.693 --> 01:30:46.693
Neurosurgeon and horseman and autistic.

01:30:46.693 --> 01:30:48.553
You, you cannot not listen to this man.

01:30:48.553 --> 01:30:49.123
He's amazing.

01:30:49.483 --> 01:30:53.233
But, you know, as he would say, those
pauses give you your brain a chance,

01:30:53.383 --> 01:30:59.023
those new neurons to myelinate to
get the fatty tissue, a chance to

01:30:59.503 --> 01:31:03.733
grow around the, the new connection
to make it stable, not fragile.

01:31:03.733 --> 01:31:05.738
And this requires, yeah.

01:31:06.338 --> 01:31:06.658
A pause.

01:31:06.913 --> 01:31:07.093
Yeah.

01:31:07.093 --> 01:31:07.393
Crissi McDonald: Sorry,

01:31:07.873 --> 01:31:08.233
Rupert Isaacson: go ahead.

01:31:08.233 --> 01:31:08.293
The,

01:31:09.073 --> 01:31:12.973
Crissi McDonald: the thing that
also, when you said that, that I

01:31:13.153 --> 01:31:19.513
kind of pinged off of too, is that
a pause, I think subconsciously

01:31:19.513 --> 01:31:21.433
a pause allows us to feel safe.

01:31:21.883 --> 01:31:22.033
Mm-hmm.

01:31:22.873 --> 01:31:25.248
Crissi McDonald: Because
we're not, it's the mm-hmm.

01:31:25.333 --> 01:31:29.713
It's not the absence of presence,
but it's the absence of pressure.

01:31:29.923 --> 01:31:32.173
So I don't have the pressure
of listening to someone tell me

01:31:32.173 --> 01:31:33.823
the next piece of information.

01:31:34.663 --> 01:31:34.963
Right.

01:31:34.963 --> 01:31:37.693
So our nervous system, I
think with pauses, this is

01:31:37.693 --> 01:31:38.713
what I've noticed for myself.

01:31:38.713 --> 01:31:42.683
I have no scientific
basis to, to base this on.

01:31:42.683 --> 01:31:47.003
But what I've noticed in myself and
with students and horses is that putting

01:31:47.003 --> 01:31:54.263
a pause in allows for us all to come
down, to settle, to get grounded.

01:31:55.358 --> 01:31:56.048
Speed.

01:31:56.888 --> 01:32:00.578
Unless you're skilled at speed,
speed builds in tension and anxiety

01:32:01.118 --> 01:32:02.408
unless you practice that way.

01:32:02.468 --> 01:32:03.878
That's not always the case.

01:32:04.148 --> 01:32:07.028
But a lot of times we, we go fast
without knowing what we're doing.

01:32:07.478 --> 01:32:11.048
And I think that drives up anxiety.

01:32:11.048 --> 01:32:14.618
So if you have someone, or if you
make it a practice in your life

01:32:14.618 --> 01:32:19.688
to find the pauses, it's a, it's
an internal practice as well.

01:32:20.018 --> 01:32:21.668
It, it's not just for the brain, right?

01:32:21.668 --> 01:32:24.788
It's also for the how we feel inside.

01:32:24.788 --> 01:32:25.088
Right?

01:32:25.178 --> 01:32:27.038
Rupert Isaacson: Because stress
actually drains your tank.

01:32:27.038 --> 01:32:27.338
Right?

01:32:27.338 --> 01:32:33.098
I mean it's, it's, it's a neurotoxin with
a cortisol grate, but also it takes a vast

01:32:33.098 --> 01:32:37.178
amount of energy to be both on the gas
pedal and on the brake at the same time.

01:32:37.418 --> 01:32:44.678
And we can't not have that in life,
but we probably only have a certain

01:32:44.678 --> 01:32:45.938
amount of those moments in us.

01:32:45.938 --> 01:32:49.868
And do you think it's perhaps true
that our subconscious knows this,

01:32:50.228 --> 01:32:53.798
maybe the horse subconscious knows
this and knows that a depletion of

01:32:53.798 --> 01:32:59.708
energy, therefore beyond a certain
point means actual lack of survival?

01:33:00.038 --> 01:33:09.128
So your point about feeling safe
means I will survive Feeling unsafe

01:33:09.128 --> 01:33:15.218
means this exercise might kill me
because it's now the equation of

01:33:15.218 --> 01:33:17.978
the energy that it's taking versus.

01:33:18.413 --> 01:33:21.743
What it might give me back
has, has, has gone upside down.

01:33:22.253 --> 01:33:25.433
And perhaps in our site, in
our subconscious, we know this

01:33:25.433 --> 01:33:26.933
because we're hunter gatherers.

01:33:27.083 --> 01:33:30.833
We know we can only expend a
certain amount of energy on the

01:33:30.833 --> 01:33:34.463
hunt for food before it kills us.

01:33:34.913 --> 01:33:36.893
Similarly, horses must know this.

01:33:36.893 --> 01:33:40.733
Deep down there's, if you are, if
you are expending energy to get to

01:33:40.733 --> 01:33:44.153
water or grazing or whatever, only
a, a certain amount of energy is

01:33:44.153 --> 01:33:45.773
going to be good in that equation.

01:33:45.773 --> 01:33:46.883
And beyond that, not good.

01:33:47.483 --> 01:33:52.823
And then you might be in that risk zone
at the end of the winter or something, and

01:33:52.823 --> 01:33:54.593
you, you do realize perhaps you might die.

01:33:55.353 --> 01:33:56.673
So we don't want to tap into that.

01:33:56.853 --> 01:33:57.513
It's very interesting.

01:33:57.723 --> 01:34:03.033
Do, do you feel, mark, do you feel that
this, this softness that you're talking

01:34:03.033 --> 01:34:11.973
about and the the, does it and the
foundation, does it really come down

01:34:14.613 --> 01:34:16.893
to instilling a sense of safety?

01:34:18.333 --> 01:34:18.903
Mark Rashid: Definitely.

01:34:20.733 --> 01:34:26.913
That's, that's the whole point of all
of it is you know, with, it's like,

01:34:26.973 --> 01:34:31.893
Chrissy was talking about with, you
know, the PO putting the pauses in.

01:34:32.673 --> 01:34:37.173
One of the things that I've gotten
in the habit of doing almost

01:34:37.173 --> 01:34:39.273
unconsciously with students.

01:34:40.113 --> 01:34:45.243
I will, I will offer some information,
and then I'll let them go do it.

01:34:46.743 --> 01:34:49.713
And if I need to offer more
information, I'll ask them to

01:34:49.713 --> 01:34:53.433
stop so that we can talk about it.

01:34:54.303 --> 01:34:57.768
And then they can go do their thing.

01:34:57.768 --> 01:35:03.063
And I might talk to people in the,
you know, the auditors and almost

01:35:03.063 --> 01:35:07.083
completely ignore, you know, I'm
watching the writer, but I may, I'm,

01:35:07.713 --> 01:35:09.693
they know I'm talking to the auditors.

01:35:09.693 --> 01:35:15.153
So that takes the pressure off of them
to be able to just focus on what they

01:35:15.153 --> 01:35:16.773
want to do or how they want to do it.

01:35:17.523 --> 01:35:21.723
And when I, if I feel like I
need to offer more information,

01:35:21.723 --> 01:35:22.893
I'll ask 'em to stop again.

01:35:25.683 --> 01:35:30.813
And, you know, and there's, for
me, I, I, I've, I don't know

01:35:30.813 --> 01:35:33.963
that I've ever told anybody that
they've done it something wrong.

01:35:35.223 --> 01:35:38.463
And even when somebody will say,
I've, I've been doing this wrong all

01:35:38.463 --> 01:35:42.873
these years, I will say, actually what
you've done has gotten you to here.

01:35:43.233 --> 01:35:45.063
I mean, you've got a lot of skill.

01:35:45.813 --> 01:35:46.653
This is awesome.

01:35:47.253 --> 01:35:52.293
You know, it isn't what you wanna do
right now, but what you've done has

01:35:52.293 --> 01:35:56.493
gotten you to here to where you can take
the next step and do the next thing.

01:35:57.423 --> 01:36:05.313
So I, I, I tried really to help
folks think about that, that

01:36:05.313 --> 01:36:06.753
there, there's no judgment about.

01:36:07.608 --> 01:36:12.858
What you've done in the past or you know,
any of that stuff, none of that matters

01:36:12.858 --> 01:36:21.168
really, you know, so the softness part
of it, I think is all about safety.

01:36:21.918 --> 01:36:25.188
It's about that, you know, if you don't
feel like you're being judged, you can

01:36:25.218 --> 01:36:28.008
feel pretty safe about what's going on.

01:36:28.668 --> 01:36:31.788
And I think that's, I think
that's really important.

01:36:32.598 --> 01:36:36.048
We had a gal last year at one of
our clinics, one of our 10 day

01:36:36.048 --> 01:36:42.188
clinics, and super nice, super nice
gal and, and, and very talented.

01:36:42.603 --> 01:36:50.228
But she had gotten stuck in a, in
a system and was kind of putting a

01:36:50.228 --> 01:36:55.778
lot of stuff, internal stuff onto
the horse that she was riding.

01:36:55.778 --> 01:37:06.758
And for about six, six days at
least, I was trying to explain to

01:37:06.758 --> 01:37:10.298
her that, you know, I don't know that
that's what we got going on here.

01:37:11.978 --> 01:37:17.228
And I think it was maybe on the
eighth day it finally dawned on

01:37:17.228 --> 01:37:18.878
me that I needed to be quiet.

01:37:20.108 --> 01:37:21.728
I'm not hearing what she was saying.

01:37:22.898 --> 01:37:26.918
She, and so she couldn't hear what I
was saying and I needed to stop talking.

01:37:28.118 --> 01:37:31.898
And we sat down together and
I just said, okay, can you

01:37:31.898 --> 01:37:33.248
just tell me what's going on?

01:37:33.248 --> 01:37:35.348
And I mean, let's start at the beginning.

01:37:35.468 --> 01:37:37.298
So what's, what's going on?

01:37:37.748 --> 01:37:40.568
You know, not the beginning of
here when you got here, but the

01:37:40.568 --> 01:37:42.608
beginning of your horsemanship.

01:37:42.758 --> 01:37:46.568
You know, when you first started
riding, can we just, and she told

01:37:46.568 --> 01:37:52.208
me the whole story and I just
listened to what she had to say.

01:37:53.048 --> 01:37:58.598
And by the time we were done, she
felt better and things went well

01:37:58.598 --> 01:38:02.858
with her horse and her, and that's
how the clinic ended for her.

01:38:03.998 --> 01:38:09.038
And it had nothing to do with
me expounding on things that

01:38:09.038 --> 01:38:13.898
I knew it had to do with just
listening to what she had to say.

01:38:14.918 --> 01:38:20.198
And she explained to me that nobody has
ever taken the time to do that with her.

01:38:20.588 --> 01:38:25.898
And so she has always thought that she
was just a bad student and people had

01:38:25.898 --> 01:38:27.578
actually told her she was a bad student.

01:38:29.108 --> 01:38:33.488
So it's that kind of thing, how
you help that person or that

01:38:33.488 --> 01:38:35.438
horse feel safe, doesn't matter.

01:38:36.998 --> 01:38:39.458
It just matters that they feel better.

01:38:40.808 --> 01:38:44.678
And you know, and that's really, for
me, that's the most important thing.

01:38:45.428 --> 01:38:49.358
And then, then we can do, then whatever
you wanna do, then we can do it.

01:38:54.338 --> 01:38:57.478
Rupert Isaacson: The, the, the pressure we
sometimes feel that we're under, whether

01:38:57.478 --> 01:39:04.768
we're instructors or facilitators or the
person providing the service, let's say

01:39:06.868 --> 01:39:11.788
because there's a contract to this and
we all have that little voice imposter

01:39:11.788 --> 01:39:14.158
syndrome and that little voice in
our head saying, yeah, but you suck.

01:39:14.158 --> 01:39:14.938
Really, you know?

01:39:15.508 --> 01:39:19.468
And no matter how much you know, that
actually, well, by now, actually, I sort

01:39:19.468 --> 01:39:23.128
of do kind of know how to help people
with horses with this kind of thing.

01:39:23.128 --> 01:39:23.848
It's okay.

01:39:24.238 --> 01:39:26.038
I don't need to feel
this, but there it is.

01:39:26.188 --> 01:39:26.818
We are human.

01:39:27.058 --> 01:39:27.898
There's that little voice.

01:39:29.288 --> 01:39:29.408
It's a

01:39:29.408 --> 01:39:30.188
Mark Rashid: good thing though.

01:39:30.698 --> 01:39:31.208
Rupert Isaacson: Go on.

01:39:31.778 --> 01:39:34.268
Mark Rashid: It's a good thing
because it keeps you honest,

01:39:34.658 --> 01:39:35.798
Rupert Isaacson: keeps you
honest, keeps you humble.

01:39:36.128 --> 01:39:36.578
Sure.

01:39:36.818 --> 01:39:40.088
But it can also dominate and overwhelm and

01:39:40.538 --> 01:39:41.413
Mark Rashid: Yeah, if we let it, it's

01:39:41.418 --> 01:39:42.068
Rupert Isaacson: heroin and things.

01:39:42.578 --> 01:39:46.808
But yeah, it's, it's, it's
treading that line, obviously.

01:39:46.808 --> 01:39:49.148
But you, you're right, it
serves a purpose for sure.

01:39:49.868 --> 01:39:54.788
That inner critic, I guess it's
just that it's often pathological.

01:39:55.448 --> 01:40:00.248
The safety has to happen, of
course, for the person who is

01:40:00.428 --> 01:40:04.658
there to receive the thing that.

01:40:06.728 --> 01:40:10.448
You guys have agreed to try to
transmit, whether that's an equine

01:40:10.448 --> 01:40:14.378
assisted thing, whether that's a
horse training thing, whether that's a

01:40:14.378 --> 01:40:18.248
photography thing or a writing thing,
or Aikido thing or a music thing.

01:40:18.998 --> 01:40:24.158
And then there's you, the person
who is standing there with that

01:40:24.158 --> 01:40:30.698
little inner voice as somebody who
suffers from anxiety and therefore

01:40:30.698 --> 01:40:32.858
can really empathize with that a lot.

01:40:32.958 --> 01:40:37.368
Chrissy, what do you do to
make yourself feel safe?

01:40:38.988 --> 01:40:42.948
You go out into the judgemental
environment of the equine world

01:40:43.878 --> 01:40:45.708
and it can be a pretty judgy place.

01:40:46.068 --> 01:40:48.288
And you can be so good.

01:40:48.318 --> 01:40:52.098
I mean, I know people who are so good at
what they do and they still get judged,

01:40:52.158 --> 01:40:54.318
you know, it can feel very unsafe.

01:40:54.498 --> 01:40:58.128
And in fact, I just want to add to that
before you answer that was I think the

01:40:58.128 --> 01:41:02.818
thing about the Warwick Schiller journey
on summit in San Antonio that I met you

01:41:02.818 --> 01:41:08.998
guys at, I think it was the only time
I've gone into an equine environment

01:41:12.808 --> 01:41:14.098
that was, you know, sort of a

01:41:16.168 --> 01:41:17.968
bringing a whole bunch of people
together, you know, to talk about

01:41:17.968 --> 01:41:25.078
stuff where I did not observe the
judging and the factionalism and the.

01:41:25.843 --> 01:41:26.623
Negativity.

01:41:26.623 --> 01:41:29.773
And I was like, fuck, you
know, sorry, excuse my French.

01:41:29.773 --> 01:41:31.093
But like, that was a first.

01:41:31.093 --> 01:41:33.433
It's like, I was like, what's,
what's different about this?

01:41:33.643 --> 01:41:35.713
It's like, no one's being a dick.

01:41:37.003 --> 01:41:38.893
This is in fact the opposite.

01:41:38.893 --> 01:41:45.013
In fact, people are actually trying
to see each other's points of

01:41:45.013 --> 01:41:48.643
view and they're trying to just
sort of be kind to each other.

01:41:48.643 --> 01:41:49.963
This is like unprecedented.

01:41:50.593 --> 01:41:52.663
And I was a bit worried 'cause
I was bringing Rowan into that.

01:41:52.663 --> 01:41:55.123
And I, you always worry a little
bit when I bring my son in is, is

01:41:55.123 --> 01:41:56.743
it a safe place for him emotionally?

01:41:57.553 --> 01:41:59.743
And it was, and you guys were
obviously a big part of that.

01:41:59.863 --> 01:42:01.453
How do you make yourself feel safe?

01:42:01.453 --> 01:42:01.903
Chrissy?

01:42:01.908 --> 01:42:01.938
See,

01:42:04.123 --> 01:42:04.933
Crissi McDonald: Put me on the spot.

01:42:05.203 --> 01:42:05.833
I don't feel safe.

01:42:06.163 --> 01:42:06.453
Rupert Isaacson: Okay.

01:42:06.763 --> 01:42:07.493
Feel safe now.

01:42:08.468 --> 01:42:09.098
Crissi McDonald: Feel safe now.

01:42:09.098 --> 01:42:09.248
Indeed.

01:42:11.048 --> 01:42:14.423
Yeah, that's an ongoing process.

01:42:15.083 --> 01:42:16.598
Rupert Isaacson: Do you
have some go-to things?

01:42:18.858 --> 01:42:19.518
Crissi McDonald: Gratitude.

01:42:20.448 --> 01:42:20.903
Rupert Isaacson: Oh, good one is

01:42:20.943 --> 01:42:22.368
Crissi McDonald: a is is a big one.

01:42:22.918 --> 01:42:29.288
The other thing that I really, really keep
in mind is that I think Maya Angelou said

01:42:29.648 --> 01:42:31.208
when you know better, you'll do better.

01:42:32.378 --> 01:42:32.438
Okay.

01:42:32.948 --> 01:42:37.358
Crissi McDonald: And so my whole
journey through horses and life

01:42:37.388 --> 01:42:43.598
has been, as I have known more
and understood more, I can.

01:42:43.673 --> 01:42:46.853
I'm not really sure about the word
better 'cause I'm not sure what

01:42:46.853 --> 01:42:50.153
we're trying to be better than,
but, but we can improve, you know?

01:42:50.153 --> 01:42:50.693
Yeah, sure.

01:42:50.993 --> 01:42:54.413
I like the idea of becoming
a, a fully integrated self.

01:42:54.893 --> 01:42:55.193
Right.

01:42:55.193 --> 01:42:57.323
We have all the, all the emotions.

01:42:57.323 --> 01:42:58.373
There's no good or bad.

01:42:58.793 --> 01:43:02.463
We have responses and we have
all this stuff coming in.

01:43:02.463 --> 01:43:04.683
We have all this stuff coming
out, but we're fully human,

01:43:05.043 --> 01:43:06.573
meaning we make mistakes.

01:43:06.603 --> 01:43:06.633
Mm.

01:43:06.903 --> 01:43:08.193
We say the wrong thing.

01:43:08.643 --> 01:43:13.073
We sometimes, despite our best
intentions, we, we mess up.

01:43:14.183 --> 01:43:21.653
And so the thing that is my lifeboat, when
I have days when I have helped a horse

01:43:21.653 --> 01:43:29.003
and a person, and then I go back and I'm
like, I don't think I made a dent, is to

01:43:29.003 --> 01:43:33.713
remember that it, and I don't mean this
in a trite way, but I am doing my best.

01:43:33.713 --> 01:43:33.773
Yeah.

01:43:34.253 --> 01:43:38.093
I am doing what I know to
do, and that's all I can do.

01:43:38.543 --> 01:43:42.413
And, and it's, it, you have
to, excuse me, that's my dog.

01:43:43.523 --> 01:43:49.493
The other thing is, is I, you know, we
really have to cut ourselves some slack.

01:43:50.573 --> 01:43:50.663
Hmm.

01:43:50.663 --> 01:43:50.873
I don't

01:43:50.873 --> 01:43:53.033
Crissi McDonald: know whose
standard we're trying to reach.

01:43:53.033 --> 01:43:53.093
Hmm.

01:43:54.683 --> 01:44:00.293
But I go, you know, I have
to live with myself as we all

01:44:00.293 --> 01:44:01.523
have to live with ourselves.

01:44:02.003 --> 01:44:05.513
And I want the rooms
in here to be pleasant.

01:44:06.323 --> 01:44:08.723
I mean, even if there's a
room where there's anger or

01:44:08.723 --> 01:44:10.103
if there's room where there's.

01:44:11.243 --> 01:44:15.113
Sorrow or if they're, you know,
all the rooms are what they are.

01:44:16.373 --> 01:44:21.713
And in order to do that, I
have to cut myself some slack.

01:44:22.703 --> 01:44:25.673
You know, I have to look at a
horse and rider and go, I don't

01:44:25.673 --> 01:44:28.163
have the skillset to help yet.

01:44:29.813 --> 01:44:33.263
Maybe in five years I will,
because I'm doing things now that I

01:44:33.263 --> 01:44:34.703
couldn't have done five years ago.

01:44:35.513 --> 01:44:42.323
So I have to trust that I will
improve, and I have to really focus

01:44:42.323 --> 01:44:44.213
on the fact that I'm doing my best.

01:44:46.828 --> 01:44:48.263
Rupert Isaacson: I like
your gratitude thing.

01:44:48.363 --> 01:44:48.753
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

01:44:49.053 --> 01:44:51.993
Rupert Isaacson: When I remember to
I'm not foolproof in this, but when

01:44:51.993 --> 01:44:57.903
I remember to, I do thank the people
that come in front of me for trusting

01:44:57.903 --> 01:45:00.903
me and just bringing this to me.

01:45:00.903 --> 01:45:02.703
And I'm grateful.

01:45:02.703 --> 01:45:04.173
I am, I am grateful.

01:45:04.173 --> 01:45:05.373
I am actually grateful.

01:45:06.083 --> 01:45:10.463
And then sometimes we'll do
a gratitude warmup together.

01:45:11.153 --> 01:45:11.333
Yeah.

01:45:11.643 --> 01:45:14.313
Rupert Isaacson: Before the thing where
I'll just say, let's think of what, what,

01:45:14.313 --> 01:45:15.423
what are you grateful for right now?

01:45:15.423 --> 01:45:17.583
And then they'll say something and
I'll say, okay, what I'm grateful

01:45:17.583 --> 01:45:19.023
for, blah, blah, blah right now.

01:45:19.023 --> 01:45:21.153
And it, it can be something
related or unrelated.

01:45:21.423 --> 01:45:25.863
And I always find that that brings me
into a sense of just purely selfishly

01:45:26.673 --> 01:45:30.513
into a sense of relaxation as you were,
you were saying about relaxation Sure.

01:45:30.513 --> 01:45:30.514
Earlier.

01:45:30.628 --> 01:45:30.918
Sure.

01:45:30.923 --> 01:45:32.463
And I also am high anxiety.

01:45:32.478 --> 01:45:33.693
I, I confront very well.

01:45:34.738 --> 01:45:37.828
Because I grew up in that particular
school system in the uk, which

01:45:37.858 --> 01:45:42.238
trains you to do it, but I'm a
quivering little bunny, you know,

01:45:42.238 --> 01:45:47.998
inside, and I'm always dying of
fear in just about every situation.

01:45:48.048 --> 01:45:51.138
I think it's part of my genetic,
you know, lit back Jews, you know,

01:45:51.218 --> 01:45:54.098
always wondering where the next
pogroms gonna come from, you know?

01:45:54.098 --> 01:45:54.158
Yeah.

01:45:54.773 --> 01:45:55.783
Keep an eye on the exit.

01:45:55.783 --> 01:45:56.023
Yeah.

01:45:56.448 --> 01:45:59.418
Crissi McDonald: Yeah, I think
the gratitude is, you know, if I'm

01:45:59.418 --> 01:46:04.088
having a stretch, whether it's at
work or in my life I had a wreck in

01:46:04.088 --> 01:46:07.568
2014 and I had to use a cane and I
had to kind of relearn how to walk.

01:46:08.258 --> 01:46:11.528
And so my go-to gratitude is,
is I'm so thankful I can walk.

01:46:11.948 --> 01:46:12.158
Rupert Isaacson: Yes.

01:46:12.158 --> 01:46:12.608
No kidding.

01:46:12.938 --> 01:46:16.778
Crissi McDonald: You know, it's,
it's, I, I get, if I get wound up

01:46:16.778 --> 01:46:23.858
on what I perceive as I'm doing
or not doing, that's a story.

01:46:24.818 --> 01:46:26.348
And stories are awesome.

01:46:26.528 --> 01:46:32.438
Unless they keep us wounded, unless they
keep us down, unless they keep us fearful.

01:46:33.338 --> 01:46:33.518
Yeah.

01:46:33.518 --> 01:46:37.928
I love stories, but they have a
place and so, you know, it's always

01:46:37.928 --> 01:46:42.188
about just checking what story
am I telling myself right now?

01:46:42.518 --> 01:46:42.848
Okay.

01:46:42.848 --> 01:46:45.788
The story I'm telling myself is I'm
not a good enough horse person to help

01:46:45.788 --> 01:46:47.438
this horse and rider with this issue.

01:46:49.268 --> 01:46:52.208
Okay, well, doesn't sound very true.

01:46:52.478 --> 01:46:55.238
You know, how do you know
that you helped or not?

01:46:55.958 --> 01:46:58.598
They didn't tell you, they didn't
look at you and say, you suck.

01:46:59.513 --> 01:47:04.343
They, they, you're, you're, I
mean, our brains are so interesting

01:47:04.343 --> 01:47:07.823
because we are story making
machines and I, I think it can both.

01:47:07.823 --> 01:47:07.913
Yeah.

01:47:07.943 --> 01:47:08.458
So the nature

01:47:08.458 --> 01:47:09.803
Rupert Isaacson: of our species,
we are the storytelling, eh?

01:47:09.888 --> 01:47:10.973
Crissi McDonald: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

01:47:10.973 --> 01:47:15.383
And so we can, I think it's really
wonderful to employ that in a way,

01:47:15.623 --> 01:47:17.333
finding ways that are healthy to do it.

01:47:17.813 --> 01:47:18.173
Yeah.

01:47:18.713 --> 01:47:22.433
Crissi McDonald: And, and gratitude
seems to be a, I I bring that back

01:47:22.433 --> 01:47:26.903
in because if I can re, if I can
pause and bring in the gratitude.

01:47:26.903 --> 01:47:27.298
Well, I was just thinking

01:47:27.298 --> 01:47:28.673
Rupert Isaacson: that
gratitude brings you the pause.

01:47:28.673 --> 01:47:29.498
Yeah, yeah, yeah,

01:47:29.873 --> 01:47:30.323
Crissi McDonald: yeah.

01:47:30.563 --> 01:47:37.343
Then that it, it, the story washes away
because with, when you're grateful for

01:47:37.343 --> 01:47:39.233
something, there is no story about that.

01:47:39.233 --> 01:47:39.803
I'm grateful.

01:47:39.803 --> 01:47:41.603
I can walk and I can walk.

01:47:42.293 --> 01:47:42.623
Right.

01:47:42.683 --> 01:47:44.423
I'm grateful for the blue sky today.

01:47:44.483 --> 01:47:46.283
I'm for whatever it is.

01:47:46.288 --> 01:47:46.538
It's a reset,

01:47:46.538 --> 01:47:46.818
Rupert Isaacson: isn't it?

01:47:46.818 --> 01:47:47.298
It's a constant.

01:47:47.298 --> 01:47:48.338
Every time you, it's a reset.

01:47:48.448 --> 01:47:48.738
Yeah.

01:47:49.728 --> 01:47:50.018
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

01:47:50.738 --> 01:47:50.978
Rupert Isaacson: Interesting.

01:47:52.158 --> 01:47:52.448
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

01:47:54.578 --> 01:47:56.093
Rupert Isaacson: And I
think in all these jobs,

01:47:58.523 --> 01:48:00.323
one has to give out a lot of energy.

01:48:02.033 --> 01:48:03.263
One can get depleted.

01:48:04.193 --> 01:48:08.003
I have a, a kid that comes
out to me, I struggle.

01:48:09.023 --> 01:48:10.553
I don't want him to know that, but I do.

01:48:12.173 --> 01:48:19.973
And so I try to design the play
date so that it's in a place

01:48:19.973 --> 01:48:21.713
where I feel as good as possible.

01:48:22.073 --> 01:48:25.373
So we always meet by a
particular creek where, yeah.

01:48:26.498 --> 01:48:32.108
I am kind of into the bird life and
I'm into the sound of the water,

01:48:32.108 --> 01:48:33.878
and, and I know he'll he will be.

01:48:33.998 --> 01:48:35.408
He's a perfectly nice kid.

01:48:35.408 --> 01:48:37.268
It's nothing to do with him at all.

01:48:37.898 --> 01:48:41.288
What triggers in me, it's down to me.

01:48:41.898 --> 01:48:42.918
Certainly not his problem.

01:48:43.128 --> 01:48:47.028
And it's a very interesting exercise in,
okay, well then what are the tools that

01:48:47.028 --> 01:48:49.128
I can use here to make myself feel safe?

01:48:49.968 --> 01:48:56.058
And I, I guess you're right, because what
happens is with each of those gratitude

01:48:56.508 --> 01:49:01.548
things, I get a chance to pause and have
a breather in something which I find

01:49:01.548 --> 01:49:06.168
internally, emotionally quite difficult,
which doesn't just get me through.

01:49:06.168 --> 01:49:11.628
It allows me to deliver energy,
which is necessary and not have that,

01:49:11.688 --> 01:49:13.368
oh my God, the energy's depleting.

01:49:13.668 --> 01:49:15.558
You know, I'm gonna end up on
the wrong side of that, even

01:49:15.558 --> 01:49:16.758
if that's complete fantasy.

01:49:16.758 --> 01:49:18.648
Your brain doesn't know the
difference between fantasy and

01:49:18.648 --> 01:49:20.538
reality, you know, as we know.

01:49:21.138 --> 01:49:25.878
It's in, it's fascinating to me the
number of tools that you guys use without

01:49:25.878 --> 01:49:32.718
necessarily being explicit about the fact
that you're using these tools to look at

01:49:32.718 --> 01:49:35.358
you guys from the outside and see what
you bring in from the martial arts, what

01:49:35.358 --> 01:49:38.358
you bring in from the arts, what you
bring in from the humanities, what you

01:49:38.358 --> 01:49:41.208
bring in from neuroscience and so on.

01:49:42.048 --> 01:49:44.388
One last thing because
we're sort of hitting the.

01:49:44.853 --> 01:49:46.593
Just passing the two hour mark here.

01:49:46.593 --> 01:49:49.503
And I do want people to also know
how to get in contact with you.

01:49:49.533 --> 01:49:53.913
Your books come and study with you
and all that good stuff to get to.

01:49:54.243 --> 01:49:56.973
But you did mention story and
you guys are both writers.

01:49:58.083 --> 01:50:00.873
Do you bring story into what you do?

01:50:00.873 --> 01:50:03.303
Do you encourage people to
journal, for example, through

01:50:03.393 --> 01:50:04.803
the courses of, of what you do?

01:50:05.013 --> 01:50:09.423
Do you consciously bring
story in, in, in certain ways?

01:50:11.013 --> 01:50:14.493
And if so, how do you wanna
kick off with that one mark?

01:50:16.173 --> 01:50:19.473
Mark Rashid: Yeah, I mean, I'm I've
been a storyteller all my life.

01:50:19.623 --> 01:50:27.003
My, my family, you know, I grew up in
amongst a, a whole bunch of storytellers,

01:50:27.513 --> 01:50:32.133
my whole family, my aunts and my
uncles, and my grandfather and my dad.

01:50:32.133 --> 01:50:38.073
And, you know, it's, it's all, it
was always about stories and which

01:50:38.073 --> 01:50:42.243
is why when I wrote the first book,
I wanted it to be a storybook.

01:50:42.903 --> 01:50:44.463
I didn't want it to be a how to book.

01:50:46.023 --> 01:50:49.743
And you can learn from stories and you
can learn from listening to stories.

01:50:49.743 --> 01:50:56.343
And so oftentimes in, whether it's in
the dojo or whether we're in the arena

01:50:56.343 --> 01:51:02.373
talking with somebody or we, I will
often say, yeah, that happened to me.

01:51:02.763 --> 01:51:04.413
That thing that's going on with you.

01:51:04.923 --> 01:51:09.993
You know, I can remember I had a time
when, and I'll tell them, you know, a

01:51:09.993 --> 01:51:15.603
relatable story about something that
happened to me or when I was working

01:51:15.603 --> 01:51:20.583
with a horse, or, you know, something
that just went horribly wrong when, you

01:51:20.583 --> 01:51:26.103
know, I thought I was thinking that I
had it going on and then everything went

01:51:26.103 --> 01:51:30.543
sideways and, you know, but you recover
from it and then you don't do it again.

01:51:31.383 --> 01:51:31.893
You know?

01:51:32.163 --> 01:51:32.403
Or you'd

01:51:32.403 --> 01:51:34.203
Rupert Isaacson: be like me and
endlessly repeat the same mistake.

01:51:34.203 --> 01:51:34.413
Yeah.

01:51:34.473 --> 01:51:34.563
Or

01:51:34.563 --> 01:51:35.163
Mark Rashid: you could do that too.

01:51:37.323 --> 01:51:39.183
I mean, I think it's whatever
you're comfortable with.

01:51:39.183 --> 01:51:39.453
Right.

01:51:41.733 --> 01:51:48.993
But it's, but yeah, I, and I think
oftentimes when you least, it's been

01:51:48.993 --> 01:51:55.353
my experience when, when somebody
can, will tell me something that

01:51:55.353 --> 01:52:00.543
happened to them and something similar
had happened to me, or vice versa.

01:52:01.203 --> 01:52:03.273
You just don't feel quite as alone.

01:52:03.693 --> 01:52:03.963
Yeah.

01:52:04.293 --> 01:52:07.863
Like, I'm the only person
who ever made that mistake.

01:52:08.073 --> 01:52:08.253
Yeah.

01:52:08.253 --> 01:52:09.603
You know, or did that thing.

01:52:10.323 --> 01:52:14.078
And man, I just, you know, and here we
are 10 years later and I still feel,

01:52:14.163 --> 01:52:16.563
feel horrible about it, you know?

01:52:16.563 --> 01:52:16.863
Yeah.

01:52:16.863 --> 01:52:17.643
I did that too.

01:52:17.733 --> 01:52:19.713
And I know just how you feel.

01:52:19.893 --> 01:52:21.693
And so

01:52:24.183 --> 01:52:28.263
for me, you know, especially
being an instructor.

01:52:30.318 --> 01:52:34.938
I think sometimes we as instructors,
we, and you kind of, you kind

01:52:34.938 --> 01:52:41.268
of hinted at it too, is that we
inadvertently might put ourselves at

01:52:41.268 --> 01:52:43.938
one level in a hierarchy and have the
student at another, another level.

01:52:44.688 --> 01:52:49.938
And for me it's always been, I,
I don't want, I don't need the

01:52:49.938 --> 01:52:52.338
person to know how much I know.

01:52:53.178 --> 01:52:59.688
I just need them to know that I might
know the one piece that they don't know

01:53:01.218 --> 01:53:03.978
that will help them move past this spot.

01:53:05.118 --> 01:53:07.128
I might have that one piece of the puzzle.

01:53:07.788 --> 01:53:10.818
And that's all really,
they need to know that.

01:53:11.238 --> 01:53:15.528
And it goes back to what Chrissy
was talking about, where for me,

01:53:15.528 --> 01:53:19.578
it's, it's not about how much I
know it's, can I help this person?

01:53:20.118 --> 01:53:24.198
I, most of the time you just need
one piece, but it needs to be the

01:53:24.198 --> 01:53:25.608
right piece at the right time.

01:53:25.938 --> 01:53:26.328
Hmm.

01:53:26.898 --> 01:53:29.688
Mark Rashid: And if you're
throwing out a ton of information

01:53:29.688 --> 01:53:34.608
in everything that you know, it's
gonna get lost in there, you know?

01:53:35.208 --> 01:53:35.298
Yeah.

01:53:35.328 --> 01:53:39.828
So, so for me, that's, that's
what this is all about.

01:53:41.028 --> 01:53:44.118
You know, how do we keep folks safe
and how do we keep the horses safe and

01:53:45.138 --> 01:53:49.518
can we develop some softness and can we
feel better than we did when we came in?

01:53:50.088 --> 01:53:51.708
Rupert Isaacson: Can we feel
better than we did when we came in?

01:53:52.188 --> 01:53:52.458
Yeah.

01:53:52.578 --> 01:53:53.148
I love that

01:53:56.028 --> 01:53:56.898
Chrissy's story.

01:53:59.308 --> 01:54:00.318
Crissi McDonald: I love stories.

01:54:01.668 --> 01:54:05.148
Yeah, I, I much the same as Mark.

01:54:05.928 --> 01:54:12.498
You know, I have 30 years worth of
stories with horses and there are some

01:54:12.498 --> 01:54:21.258
stories that are illustrate a point, you
know, you can tell a story and you're

01:54:21.258 --> 01:54:22.728
telling it from your point of view.

01:54:22.728 --> 01:54:26.418
So the, the beautiful thing about
stories is we get to see through

01:54:26.418 --> 01:54:29.238
the eyes of whoever we read, right?

01:54:29.238 --> 01:54:31.158
Or whoever we're listening to.

01:54:32.148 --> 01:54:40.368
And so if, if most people we see
have experience with a handful

01:54:40.368 --> 01:54:43.728
of horses, they have many years
with a small amount of horses.

01:54:44.238 --> 01:54:47.538
And Mark and I are very lucky because
we have a lot of years and a lot of

01:54:47.538 --> 01:54:52.038
horses, which means a lot of stories
because we have a lot of experiences.

01:54:52.848 --> 01:54:59.898
So yeah, I, I prefer to relate
something to a story rather than,

01:55:02.868 --> 01:55:06.498
rather than giving the impression
that I'm here, that I know all this

01:55:06.498 --> 01:55:14.718
stuff and you've come to me and that
you know, those, again, it's not me.

01:55:14.748 --> 01:55:20.538
It's not me to, to think that because I've
had these experiences, I'm better than or.

01:55:21.318 --> 01:55:24.078
No more, we're just farther
down the trail, right?

01:55:24.678 --> 01:55:25.908
We're all on the same trail.

01:55:26.028 --> 01:55:30.018
It's just, I've maybe reached
mile marker 20 and they're at 18.

01:55:30.528 --> 01:55:33.468
So I can say, oh, to get from 18 to
20, you have to, you know, here's

01:55:33.468 --> 01:55:34.458
some things that are helpful.

01:55:36.588 --> 01:55:40.758
So when I think it comes to story,
it kind of takes the, the pressure

01:55:40.758 --> 01:55:44.718
off of here's what I know, right?

01:55:44.718 --> 01:55:47.808
And instead says, here's
what I experienced.

01:55:48.498 --> 01:55:49.668
This is what happened.

01:55:50.568 --> 01:55:53.598
And then the other person go,
oh, I've had that happen too.

01:55:53.688 --> 01:55:54.948
And now you have a connection.

01:55:55.483 --> 01:55:55.563
Hmm.

01:55:56.283 --> 01:55:56.703
Safety

01:55:56.713 --> 01:55:57.063
Rupert Isaacson: again.

01:55:57.093 --> 01:55:57.383
Yeah,

01:55:57.888 --> 01:55:58.698
Crissi McDonald: safety.

01:55:58.788 --> 01:55:59.118
Yeah.

01:55:59.148 --> 01:55:59.988
Safety in numbers.

01:55:59.988 --> 01:56:01.248
I mean, we're herd animals.

01:56:01.248 --> 01:56:02.148
Rupert Isaacson: Absolutely.

01:56:02.208 --> 01:56:02.538
Yeah.

01:56:02.543 --> 01:56:03.108
Yeah, yeah.

01:56:03.108 --> 01:56:07.098
And if you feel we're on, on,
on our own with this, that's the

01:56:07.098 --> 01:56:09.288
highness might eat me feeling.

01:56:10.308 --> 01:56:10.578
Yeah.

01:56:10.628 --> 01:56:13.663
I, what I, I just really
liked what you said.

01:56:13.723 --> 01:56:21.428
You, you've said three times now
experiences rather than experience,

01:56:22.368 --> 01:56:24.583
and it's so interesting the

01:56:26.653 --> 01:56:28.813
emotional difference
between those two things.

01:56:29.203 --> 01:56:33.038
You say, I've got 30 years of
experience says it means, yeah.

01:56:33.223 --> 01:56:36.493
30 years of stuff happening
to me, if you say I have 30

01:56:36.493 --> 01:56:37.843
years of experience, it's like.

01:56:38.248 --> 01:56:39.628
I have 30 years of experience.

01:56:40.138 --> 01:56:43.588
You know, it's a very
different vibe, isn't it?

01:56:44.158 --> 01:56:44.518
And

01:56:44.518 --> 01:56:44.938
Crissi McDonald: yeah.

01:56:44.938 --> 01:56:46.138
Thank you for pointing that out.

01:56:46.138 --> 01:56:46.498
I didn't,

01:56:46.498 --> 01:56:48.358
Rupert Isaacson: you did that
very spontaneously connection.

01:56:48.358 --> 01:56:50.068
It, it, I thought, oh gosh.

01:56:50.068 --> 01:56:53.908
I need to make sure I'm putting it in
those terms too, because one made me

01:56:53.908 --> 01:56:56.398
feel safe and the other would not have.

01:56:57.898 --> 01:56:58.048
Mm-hmm.

01:56:58.078 --> 01:56:58.258
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

01:56:58.258 --> 01:57:00.388
But 30 years though, I wanna
know you've, that experie 30

01:57:00.388 --> 01:57:00.868
Crissi McDonald: years.

01:57:01.318 --> 01:57:01.738
Yeah.

01:57:01.738 --> 01:57:03.538
I have 30 years of experience.

01:57:03.538 --> 01:57:07.139
That's so, like, it's not connecting.

01:57:07.139 --> 01:57:08.003
It's instant Hierarchy isnt, it's

01:57:08.003 --> 01:57:08.403
not, yeah.

01:57:08.503 --> 01:57:09.478
Crissi McDonald: It, it's not, yeah.

01:57:09.478 --> 01:57:10.708
It's not connecting.

01:57:10.823 --> 01:57:11.323
No, it's not.

01:57:11.368 --> 01:57:11.878
It's,

01:57:11.878 --> 01:57:13.648
Crissi McDonald: but 30
years of experiences.

01:57:13.768 --> 01:57:18.058
Other people can just say, well, I
have 30 years of experiences too.

01:57:18.058 --> 01:57:18.178
Yeah.

01:57:18.748 --> 01:57:21.418
You know, and that there's the
connection that, thank you Rupert.

01:57:21.418 --> 01:57:22.498
That's, that was

01:57:22.828 --> 01:57:23.338
Rupert Isaacson: Well, thank you.

01:57:23.338 --> 01:57:26.038
Thank you for pointing that out, for using
that and bringing that to my attention

01:57:26.038 --> 01:57:30.088
because that, that's definitely actually
a tool, which I think, I don't know if

01:57:30.088 --> 01:57:33.718
I'm using that tool well enough, but
now you've brought my attention to it.

01:57:33.718 --> 01:57:35.698
I, I, I'm certainly gonna try to.

01:57:37.858 --> 01:57:44.848
So story heals, as you say, unless
they're sort of triggering amygdala,

01:57:45.208 --> 01:57:50.368
social media, you know, the wrong
kinds of stories, but stories do heal.

01:57:50.468 --> 01:57:51.638
They seem to be medicine.

01:57:52.658 --> 01:57:56.258
You guys are medicine people.

01:57:56.408 --> 01:57:57.818
I think when it.

01:57:58.988 --> 01:58:00.008
Comes to the work you do.

01:58:00.008 --> 01:58:01.328
I, I genuinely think you are.

01:58:01.868 --> 01:58:04.388
If people want to come and
connect with you, what do they do?

01:58:04.388 --> 01:58:05.378
How do they find you?

01:58:05.378 --> 01:58:06.728
What are the courses you offer?

01:58:07.238 --> 01:58:09.008
And then please tell
them about your books.

01:58:09.038 --> 01:58:12.818
So start with how they find you
and what are the courses you offer.

01:58:12.998 --> 01:58:15.608
Either of you, just jump in, please.

01:58:16.848 --> 01:58:19.398
Crissi McDonald: I will jump in
with some of the logistics stuff

01:58:19.398 --> 01:58:20.778
and then Mark can add on to it.

01:58:21.048 --> 01:58:21.078
Okay?

01:58:21.268 --> 01:58:23.548
So you can go to mark asha.com.

01:58:24.028 --> 01:58:27.598
We have once you're there, you
can sign up for a newsletter.

01:58:27.598 --> 01:58:29.728
We have a little newsletter
goes out once a month.

01:58:30.598 --> 01:58:32.398
We have an online classroom.

01:58:32.518 --> 01:58:36.118
You can also find out how to
register by going to Mark's website.

01:58:36.298 --> 01:58:38.638
And again, that's mark rashid.com.

01:58:39.613 --> 01:58:40.498
Mark with a K we

01:58:40.498 --> 01:58:42.298
Crissi McDonald: have Mark with a K.

01:58:42.388 --> 01:58:42.928
Yes.

01:58:42.928 --> 01:58:44.578
And then I have a website as well.

01:58:44.578 --> 01:58:46.018
It's chrissy mcdonald.com.

01:58:46.018 --> 01:58:47.398
And then both of us have books.

01:58:47.398 --> 01:58:49.108
Rupert Isaacson: It's
McDonald, not McDonald.

01:58:49.528 --> 01:58:52.768
Crissi McDonald: Well, it was
McDonald in 1660 and somehow

01:58:52.768 --> 01:58:55.108
it became McDonald in 1690.

01:58:55.108 --> 01:58:56.308
But that's Scottish history.

01:58:56.308 --> 01:58:58.858
You probably don't wanna that,
that's not the, oh, I might

01:58:58.858 --> 01:59:01.288
Rupert Isaacson: know because
my, my clan is Clan Mac first and

01:59:01.288 --> 01:59:02.518
so Yeah, we could go to Oh yeah.

01:59:02.758 --> 01:59:03.268
Rabbit Hole.

01:59:03.268 --> 01:59:03.688
Oh yes.

01:59:03.688 --> 01:59:04.423
Yeah, yeah,

01:59:04.468 --> 01:59:04.588
Crissi McDonald: yeah.

01:59:04.588 --> 01:59:05.968
That's a whole different rabbit hole.

01:59:06.208 --> 01:59:06.268
Yeah.

01:59:06.268 --> 01:59:11.728
But yes, it's Chrissy, C-R-I-S-S-I,
McDonald mc D-O-N-A-L-D

01:59:12.058 --> 01:59:12.148
Okay.

01:59:12.208 --> 01:59:12.748
Crissi McDonald: Dot com.

01:59:12.778 --> 01:59:12.808
Okay.

01:59:13.798 --> 01:59:15.418
And all my books are there.

01:59:15.418 --> 01:59:16.318
You can look at them.

01:59:16.318 --> 01:59:20.488
And then both Mark and I's books
are at whatever retailers you.

01:59:21.223 --> 01:59:22.638
Like to buy from?

01:59:23.078 --> 01:59:25.093
I always like to promote bookshop.org.

01:59:25.423 --> 01:59:25.453
Okay.

01:59:25.453 --> 01:59:27.373
Because it supports local bookstores.

01:59:27.613 --> 01:59:28.243
Rupert Isaacson: That's cool.

01:59:28.643 --> 01:59:31.903
Yeah, we've talked about one of
Mark's titles Consider The Horse.

01:59:31.903 --> 01:59:32.683
There are others.

01:59:33.113 --> 01:59:35.693
Is there a particular title you
would draw people's attention

01:59:35.693 --> 01:59:36.983
to that from your books?

01:59:36.983 --> 01:59:37.493
Chrissy?

01:59:37.868 --> 01:59:39.638
Crissi McDonald: I have two horse books.

01:59:40.328 --> 01:59:44.318
They're different focuses, so I'm
just going to point out both of them.

01:59:45.038 --> 01:59:48.128
The first one I wrote is called
Continuing the Ride, rebuilding

01:59:48.128 --> 01:59:49.358
Confidence from the Ground Up.

01:59:49.868 --> 01:59:49.898
Okay.

01:59:49.898 --> 01:59:54.308
And that has to do with what I
did to get back in the saddle in a

01:59:54.308 --> 01:59:56.738
healthy way after my wreck in 2014.

01:59:57.188 --> 01:59:57.428
Got it.

01:59:57.848 --> 02:00:00.428
Crissi McDonald: So, because we
hear from a lot of people how

02:00:00.698 --> 02:00:03.308
they're anxious and they don't
have the confidence they used to.

02:00:03.308 --> 02:00:03.398
Sure.

02:00:04.568 --> 02:00:07.808
And then the other one is called
Getting Along With Horses and

02:00:07.808 --> 02:00:09.428
Evolution in Horsemanship.

02:00:10.808 --> 02:00:14.528
And that explores some of the ideas
that we've been talking about here.

02:00:15.128 --> 02:00:15.638
Rupert Isaacson: Wonderful.

02:00:17.588 --> 02:00:17.918
Mark, I

02:00:17.918 --> 02:00:18.998
Crissi McDonald: think
it's Mark's Turn Now

02:00:19.358 --> 02:00:20.318
Rupert Isaacson: Books, please.

02:00:22.388 --> 02:00:24.878
Mark Rashid: I don't know how
many books I have out actually.

02:00:25.118 --> 02:00:25.898
16.

02:00:27.058 --> 02:00:33.138
I've got 16 books out and so, and
you can find those on the website.

02:00:33.468 --> 02:00:38.658
One thing I, I do wanna mention just
because it's a thing, so the first

02:00:38.658 --> 02:00:40.788
book is called Considering the Horse.

02:00:41.238 --> 02:00:42.468
So it's not consider

02:00:42.828 --> 02:00:43.788
Rupert Isaacson: considering.

02:00:44.118 --> 02:00:45.858
Mark Rashid: It's
considering, and here's why.

02:00:46.878 --> 02:00:53.028
So when we were getting ready to put the
title on the book, I wanted to call it,

02:00:53.118 --> 02:00:58.638
considering the Horse and the publisher
wanted to call it Consider the Horse.

02:00:58.758 --> 02:01:06.378
Ah, and I felt really strongly
that Consider the horse was

02:01:06.378 --> 02:01:08.178
telling people what to do,

02:01:10.338 --> 02:01:17.058
whereas considering is an active,
it's an active thing that's, it's a

02:01:17.058 --> 02:01:18.768
Rupert Isaacson: conversation
rather than a telling.

02:01:18.858 --> 02:01:19.128
Yeah.

02:01:19.188 --> 02:01:20.118
Mark Rashid: And indeed.

02:01:20.118 --> 02:01:20.448
Yeah.

02:01:21.258 --> 02:01:25.478
So, but there is actually, again,
there's a story behind why that title

02:01:25.478 --> 02:01:28.388
is considering instead of consider.

02:01:29.678 --> 02:01:32.528
So, I mean, we went round
and round for about a month.

02:01:33.128 --> 02:01:33.248
Yeah.

02:01:33.308 --> 02:01:38.768
On that, the difference between consider
and considering with the publisher.

02:01:39.578 --> 02:01:42.038
And I just, I couldn't let it go.

02:01:42.038 --> 02:01:47.708
I was, I, I just, I was fanatical
about it and so that's why

02:01:47.708 --> 02:01:48.908
it's considering the horse

02:01:50.078 --> 02:01:50.468
Rupert Isaacson: so well done.

02:01:50.468 --> 02:01:51.248
Holding your ground.

02:01:51.788 --> 02:01:52.298
Mark Rashid: Yeah.

02:01:52.348 --> 02:01:55.168
And that was my first book too, that
they didn't even want to publish.

02:01:55.168 --> 02:01:58.588
So I felt like, you know,
we did okay with it.

02:01:59.168 --> 02:02:01.118
But yeah, all the books
are on the website.

02:02:01.298 --> 02:02:02.828
Our music is on the website.

02:02:03.263 --> 02:02:07.493
And we've got three or four
CDs out which people don't buy

02:02:07.493 --> 02:02:09.713
anymore, but, but they're there.

02:02:10.853 --> 02:02:13.753
And yeah, all of our courses are on there.

02:02:13.753 --> 02:02:16.333
We do five day clinics.

02:02:16.493 --> 02:02:21.823
We do all these at Happy Dog Ranch
and, and Sedalia, Colorado is south

02:02:21.823 --> 02:02:25.153
of Denver, so, we do five day clinics.

02:02:25.153 --> 02:02:30.733
We do a three day IBO and
riding in the afternoon.

02:02:31.933 --> 02:02:35.163
And then IBO is in the morning,
riding is in the afternoon.

02:02:36.063 --> 02:02:37.983
And then we do 10 day clinics.

02:02:38.083 --> 02:02:39.703
There are intensives.

02:02:39.733 --> 02:02:45.043
We do those June, August, September.

02:02:45.973 --> 02:02:49.153
Our five days are in May and October.

02:02:49.993 --> 02:02:56.583
And then we do some courses with Jim
Masterson and Steve Peters in July.

02:02:57.123 --> 02:02:57.393
Fantastic.

02:02:57.393 --> 02:02:59.133
And they're all at all at the same place.

02:03:00.123 --> 02:03:01.083
Amazing place.

02:03:03.453 --> 02:03:04.443
Rupert Isaacson: Happy Dog Ranch.

02:03:04.713 --> 02:03:05.583
Mark Rashid: Happy Dog Ranch.

02:03:05.583 --> 02:03:05.853
Yeah.

02:03:06.603 --> 02:03:06.843
Rupert Isaacson: Happy.

02:03:06.843 --> 02:03:07.443
We need to get, we

02:03:07.443 --> 02:03:08.403
Mark Rashid: need to get you there.

02:03:08.408 --> 02:03:08.998
Have you ever done there?

02:03:08.998 --> 02:03:09.183
I'd love to

02:03:09.183 --> 02:03:09.543
Rupert Isaacson: get there.

02:03:09.543 --> 02:03:10.053
I'd love to.

02:03:10.053 --> 02:03:10.983
I'm often in Denver.

02:03:11.043 --> 02:03:11.373
Yeah.

02:03:11.378 --> 02:03:11.438
Yeah.

02:03:11.523 --> 02:03:11.793
Yeah.

02:03:11.793 --> 02:03:14.223
And not Colorado Springs too, so.

02:03:14.868 --> 02:03:16.513
Mark Rashid: Well, it's right
between, it's in between.

02:03:16.518 --> 02:03:16.578
Okay.

02:03:16.638 --> 02:03:16.878
Rupert Isaacson: Yeah.

02:03:17.033 --> 02:03:18.468
I, I know it, I know, I know.

02:03:18.528 --> 02:03:21.433
At least I, I know the sign on
the highway when you driving.

02:03:21.453 --> 02:03:21.673
Yes.

02:03:21.678 --> 02:03:21.918
Yeah.

02:03:22.428 --> 02:03:23.928
Love to, love to, love to.

02:03:24.168 --> 02:03:25.038
Can people come?

02:03:25.188 --> 02:03:26.478
Do, do you have to bring your horse?

02:03:26.478 --> 02:03:27.948
Can you come without a horse?

02:03:28.308 --> 02:03:29.448
You can come without a horse.

02:03:29.628 --> 02:03:29.868
Okay.

02:03:30.348 --> 02:03:30.558
Mark Rashid: Yep.

02:03:31.488 --> 02:03:32.628
You have to do everything on foot.

02:03:32.628 --> 02:03:36.738
But no, we got plenty of horses there.

02:03:37.578 --> 02:03:38.208
Rupert Isaacson: Very cool.

02:03:38.718 --> 02:03:39.078
All right.

02:03:39.078 --> 02:03:40.518
Well, happy Dog Ranch.

02:03:41.238 --> 02:03:43.038
Five day and 10 day intensive.

02:03:43.038 --> 02:03:43.608
Brilliant.

02:03:43.688 --> 02:03:45.128
Mark rashid.com.

02:03:46.028 --> 02:03:48.698
Chrissy McDonald, mook donald.com.

02:03:48.788 --> 02:03:49.628
Crissi McDonald: McDonald?

02:03:49.628 --> 02:03:49.928
Yes.

02:03:49.928 --> 02:03:50.408
Rupert Isaacson: McDonald.

02:03:51.398 --> 02:03:53.198
I would like to do this again.

02:03:53.248 --> 02:03:55.258
There are some things I'd
like to go further into.

02:03:55.958 --> 02:03:58.748
Also the work you do with
Masters and Method and the

02:03:58.778 --> 02:04:00.488
things that you've alluded to.

02:04:00.848 --> 02:04:03.398
There's, I feel we sort of
barely scratched the surface.

02:04:03.398 --> 02:04:06.218
So would you, would you come,
would you guys come on again?

02:04:06.668 --> 02:04:07.148
I'd love to.

02:04:07.373 --> 02:04:07.533
Crissi McDonald: Absolutely.

02:04:07.533 --> 02:04:07.534
Yeah.

02:04:08.033 --> 02:04:08.613
I'd love to.

02:04:08.613 --> 02:04:08.773
Yeah.

02:04:08.778 --> 02:04:09.248
Thank you.

02:04:09.548 --> 02:04:11.258
Rupert Isaacson: My, it's
been my absolute pleasure.

02:04:11.258 --> 02:04:11.918
I learned a lot.

02:04:12.458 --> 02:04:14.138
I'm going to say experiences.

02:04:14.168 --> 02:04:15.728
I'm not going to say experience.

02:04:17.108 --> 02:04:19.208
I feel safer when I say it too.

02:04:19.418 --> 02:04:19.688
Yeah.

02:04:19.693 --> 02:04:21.668
Because isn't that something I,
if I say experience, I'm like

02:04:21.668 --> 02:04:24.373
putting myself, I'm making myself
vulner one eyes, like mm-hmm.

02:04:25.178 --> 02:04:28.358
What if my experiences not
good, not, but my experiences?

02:04:28.358 --> 02:04:29.318
Well, they are what they are.

02:04:29.828 --> 02:04:29.918
Mm-hmm.

02:04:30.968 --> 02:04:31.088
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

02:04:31.088 --> 02:04:34.208
You have lots of years of experiences too.

02:04:34.538 --> 02:04:35.168
Rupert Isaacson: One or two.

02:04:35.168 --> 02:04:35.888
Mm-hmm.

02:04:36.158 --> 02:04:36.488
Yeah.

02:04:36.488 --> 02:04:36.938
Or two.

02:04:36.943 --> 02:04:37.163
Yeah.

02:04:37.163 --> 02:04:37.403
Mm-hmm.

02:04:37.523 --> 02:04:37.643
Crissi McDonald: Yeah.

02:04:38.828 --> 02:04:39.608
That's who you are.

02:04:40.088 --> 02:04:41.798
Rupert Isaacson: Indeed, indeed.

02:04:42.548 --> 02:04:46.278
Alright, my friends, I'm gonna hit
that dreaded button stop record.

02:04:46.758 --> 02:04:50.118
But thank you so much and we
will see you on the next one.

02:04:51.198 --> 02:04:51.528
Thank you.

02:04:51.528 --> 02:04:51.923
Thank you, Rupert.

02:04:52.245 --> 02:04:55.365
Rupert Isaacson: I hope you enjoyed
today's conversation as much as I did.

02:04:55.905 --> 02:05:00.805
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02:05:00.815 --> 02:05:04.985
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02:05:04.985 --> 02:05:06.865
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02:05:21.175 --> 02:05:24.695
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02:05:41.300 --> 02:05:44.690
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02:05:51.100 --> 02:05:56.490
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02:05:56.490 --> 02:06:00.600
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02:06:00.600 --> 02:06:03.410
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02:06:03.680 --> 02:06:05.300
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02:06:06.010 --> 02:06:07.200
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