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Join me, Jess VanderWier, a registered psychotherapist, mom of three, and founder of Nurtured First, along with my husband Scott, as we dive deep into the stories of our friends, favourite celebrities, and influential figures.
In each episode, we skip the small talk and dive into vulnerable and honest conversations about topics like cycle breaking, trauma, race, mental health, parenting, sex, religion, postpartum, healing, and loss.
We are glad you are here.
PS: The name Robot Unicorn comes from our daughter. When we asked her what we should name the podcast, she confidently came up with this name because she loves robots, and she loves unicorns, so why not? There was something about the playfulness of the name, the confidence in her voice, and the fact that it represents that you can love two things at once that just felt right.
Welcome to Robot Unicorn, hosted by my parents, Jess and Scott.
I hope you enjoyed the episode.
Hi Jessica, long time no see you.
Let's talk about a topic that I'm very excited to talk about, to be honest.
Girls.
Girls.
And specifically
Friendship drama.
Yeah, friendship dynamics and repair and all that.
Because you were saying that you thought there was quite a few studies or research done on
the differences in girl friendship dynamics versus boy friendship dynamics, which I mean just based on experience
That kind of sounds right, but I didn't necessarily trust that.
So we decided to do an episode on it.
And especially because we've had say last year, we just started the school year at the time of this
recording so there hasn't been anything going on but last year we had a few minor situations that happened so we wanted to understand this a bit more and have a conversation about it and lo and behold
It seems as though there are similar friendship dynamics between boys and girls, but there are like stronger components that
girls do and boys do.
They just have different types of friendships, which is interesting.
So, from your perspective as a therapist, why do you think these friendship conflicts, specifically with girls, and especially in the tween and early teen years,
feel so catastrophic for girls.
I think the core reason why friendship struggles feel catastrophic
For girls is they tie up their identity, their sense of belonging, and their belief of who they are into their friendship groups.
And so when they are rejected by a friend, it's not just
my friend is rejecting me and oh I understand because they want to go hang out with this other friend.
It feels like a direct attack on their character, their sense of identity, who they are and how they make sense of themselves.
And so it's much deeper than I think a lot of parents recognize, especially at even those early adolescent ages like preteens, like eight to ten
13, right?
Yep.
They are learning how to understand themselves through the context of their friends.
And rejection, the betrayal goes deep.
I think that is why friendship struggles are so difficult for them to navigate and also so difficult for parents to know how to support them through
Mm-hmm.
Well, and what I was finding in the research that's been done, it's easier for parents to understand physical acts of aggression.
And that's more often attributed to how boys fight with each other or basically how they fight with each other is usually more physical.
Versus girls, it's more, was it relational aggression
And that's unseen, right?
Like it's more verbal and you don't see a physical mark left on someone from being punched.
Right.
So if a boy's fighting and and they get
punched or hurt physically, you see the mark.
Girls aggression, relational aggression, it can be sneakier, it can be more difficult to identify, it can be passive aggressive
It can come across as being nice to the untrained eye, but actually it's very hurtful.
It can be slow and draining over time, or it can be all of a sudden based on what feels like nothing
Right?
It's very confusing for girls.
And often they don't even know why they're acting the way they are.
Like if they're the aggressor, they don't even know sometimes why they're being the way they are.
If they're the one receiving the aggression or the one who's being alienated from the fr the clique or the friend group, they don't know what what's going on.
It's just so confusing.
and very truly hurtful and can have long lasting impacts.
And that's why I think it's something that we don't talk about enough.
Parents aren't prepared enough for girls' struggles such as this.
Boys have their own separate set of struggles at these ages and we will talk about that in another podcast episode.
But I do want to say that both boys and girls deal with the same struggles.
It's just more common for girls to deal with more of these relational
Struggles than boys do.
Yeah, and it's not that boys don't.
Yeah, it's so I don't want to have to say that every time we're saying it.
Yeah, yeah
we're talking about any of this because that is just the case.
Yeah.
They deal with the same types of things.
It's just on average girls will deal with relational aggression versus boys will potentially deal with more physical aggression.
So we'll just name that off the bat.
We're gonna talk specifically about girls, but this also might relate to your boy.
Yeah.
So the research shows a clear shift in friendships.
From being about shared activities in early childhood.
So just like playing or being in close proximity to someone else.
They're just they become
instant best friends.
And then it shifts into being about intimacy, trust, and loyalty in adolescence.
How does this developmental shift directly lead to the rise of what psychologists call relational aggression, like we were talking about?
Things like gossip, exclusion, the salon treatment.
Right.
So you see this shift usually starting around like age eight
kind of into age thirteen, so that like middle school age, where your child now is seeking more than just shared activities.
They're seeking someone who they can tell their struggles to, someone who they can have more intimate conversations with.
And typically what we see is that these friendships often mimic the relationships that they have with their parents.
So for example, a child who has had
Clear communication with their parents, they have healthy relationships, a secure attachment, they are able to talk about hard things with their parents.
These kids typically have healthier friendships or are healthier friends, let's say
So they're the friends who are less likely to let's say have this relational aggression where you see the gossip, you see the talking behind each other's back, backstabbing, whatever you want to call it.
They're less likely.
Now
children who have more challenging relationships with their parents or they haven't in those early years learned how to regulate their emotions or speak kindly to each other or who have been yelled at for a lot of their life
they will often replicate what's going on in the parent-child relationship, but now they are the person who has some power, right?
So let's say they've been yelled at their whole life.
they might be the ones more likely to yell at their friends.
Or they've been spoken to like as if they're terrible their whole life.
They might be the ones more likely to speak terribly about other people.
or they've witnessed their parents gossiping about their parents' friends their whole life.
They might be more likely to gossip.
So we do see a lot of parallels between this blueprint that the first eight years the child's been learning of how to be in relationship with people now starts to come out to play.
in those early tween years.
And what becomes really difficult is even these children, let's say you do have that secure relationship with your daughter.
you've had these great conversations, you know she's securely attached to you.
She's trying to be really healthy in her relationships and she's naturally starting to seek these deeper friendships.
It doesn't mean that her friends have the same experience
So it's still very likely that she can get into this relational aggression or drama, even if she has that secure foundation to fall back on.
Does that make sense?
Yep
I think so.
And also it seems as though it's just development of the child.
Yes, there is like a natural yearning, desire to start to seek closeness with people outside of your parent.
Yeah.
Is it uh like the child trying to become independent?
So they're trying to create their own relationships outside of just being in relationship with their parents and siblings?
Yes, it's the age of who am I as
Myself, right?
So you're starting to become and develop your own identity around this like pre-puberty, puberty stage of yourself as a human being that's outside of your parents
Now it's best if they still get their need for attachment met by their parent.
And so I think what parents often hear is, oh, it's natural for children to
desire independence and to seek intimacy with their friends.
Parents hear, oh, so it's okay for me to pull back and let them spend all their time with their friends.
Like that's what they're
supposed to do.
We need to keep in mind that during these years, the relationship that they have with us and prioritizing that, making sure we still have that secure foundation is incredibly important.
And we do want to make room for friendships.
So both are true.
But don't hear that they have this natural desire for independence and then say, okay, perfect.
I can now pull away and let them spend all their time in extracurriculars or with friends on play dates, whatever that is, your relationship still needs to be top priority
Yeah, that makes sense.
Yeah.
I think there's a common idea that girls are, and forgive this term here, but cattier while boys are more straightforward.
Right.
But the research seemed to paint a more nuanced picture, suggesting that girls' conflicts are often covert because they are socialized to avoid direct confrontation while
Boys' conflicts can be more overt, but often resolved faster.
Can you unpack these gender differences for us?
And is it true that boys get over it more quickly?
I think the socialization piece and not just talking about like they're eight let's say they're eight years old, they're eight years of socialization, like talking about history, right?
Like
how long women have been socialized.
Like a human history.
Like human history, right?
Like how long women have been socialized to learn to be nice, to be kind, you know, to
not be too direct and to desire maybe more of those like intimate relationships with their friends, to have more self disclosure, etc.
Whereas men or boys have been socialized to, you know, be strong and be brave and to be tough and not show their emotions
I have a hard time saying and I think there maybe is something to it where, you know, a lot of people will be like, Oh my boy, I just fought it out and then I was fine
I think there are a lot of sensitive boys who are not fine, that just appear fine, right?
But do hold a lot of wounds from their friendship struggles.
So I don't
necessarily agree that boys just get over things easier.
I think it might appear that way, or they might even say that they've got over it easier.
But I've worked with a lot of little boys who are very sensitive to the comments that their friends have made and have not gotten over it easily
Right, but is that just because you are a therapist and you are seeing the boys who are struggling?
Yeah.
Likely seeing the sensitive kids.
Right.
So
Because there what I was reading was that there's like this evolutionary theory that boys do get over conflicts faster because historically
having allies made you stronger and able to defend your let's say your tribe against enemy tribes.
Mm-hmm.
So men would
get into arguments or fights, but then get over it relatively quickly and be fine with each other afterwards where that same need was not required for
Women.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that I can see.
I mean, I think we can see that in boys who like they fight it out, they argue it out, and they're also very direct with each other often, right?
And then they're able to be fine with each other out
I mean I even see that in boys when they're playing video games together or whatever, like the way that they fight, they swear at each other, they get angry, and then all of a sudden like they're playing again.
Whereas girls I think because so much of their sense of belonging and who they are and this like human history of needing other women to kind of support you, right?
And to be your emotional support, like I think the intimacy that girls crave makes
the rejection all that much more difficult for them.
And f the betrayal to feel so personal.
Well and again what I was reading was that more often friendships between boys are not just
like two best friends and they're not necessarily as close with anyone else versus girls are more dyadic.
Like they just they're
is more often two girls who are best friends for life.
And they will interact with others, but most of their self-disclosure and like that intimate relationship is between the two girls versus with boys
It's often between like a larger group of boys.
Yeah.
And I wonder too of like how much of the socialization is that girls are often allowed to talk about their feelings a little bit more, like their self-disclosure is modeled so that
in their relationships, like they are able to get there quicker where they self-disclose, it's more intimate.
Whereas for boys who've been trained, like, you know, not to have these big feelings or not to be too sensitive.
They just maybe don't even get to that level of intimacy in their friendships as quickly until their later years.
So when rejection happens, it's not like so personal of like
I've shared my heart and soul with you and now you're rejecting me, right?
It's like, oh well we've been playing soccer together or whatever.
Right.
I mean, I don't know.
It's
That's just a theory.
It's potentially one or the other, or potentially a mixture of both, right?
I think it's a mixture.
And the way we relate with others
It could be a society forming us in a certain way too.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
That's a hard one.
I mean the research doesn't cover that, right?
So there are theories.
These are just theories, yeah.
Let's talk about cliques now.
Oof.
Or
I think that's the Canadian way to say it, because it's French, but clique cliques, as some others like to call it.
They are often described as a kind of social laboratory.
Where kids learn complex skills like reading social cues and managing alliances.
How does this constant negotiation for status and belonging drive the conflicts that we see?
I think it's everything.
I think if you think about this age, I mean I've talked about this balance so many times on this podcast, but the
dance of authenticity, like being who you are and belonging.
Like I want to feel included in a group of people.
I want to know that I have a sense of belonging here.
around this tween age, this need for belonging is really increasing, right?
It's like I need to feel included.
I need to feel loved.
I need to feel like I have a place in this group.
And often they are still learning who they are.
authentically, right?
They don't know yet.
That's something that you're really learning in those early tween years.
And so because you don't have this really strong sense of identity or who you are
it's likely you're gonna morph and change into this group so that you can have belonging, right?
And I think that's really difficult because these cliques
Often we'll have like certain things that everyone does, right?
Like every girl in this clique wears Sephora makeup.
You know, that's a really common one right now.
Or they all have the Stanley water bottle or whatever it is, right?
And because your need for belonging feels so intense, you'll just kind of morph into this clique.
And I think what becomes really difficult then is you don't really know who you are.
You're just kind of becoming like everybody else.
And then if the clique or the group all of a sudden rejects you for whatever reason, could be anything, usually it's because they're trying to not be rejected.
That's usually the reason that you get rejected.
It feels so personal again, right?
Because now I've wrapped up who I am in this and now I'm on the outside.
And now who am I?
And I don't even know who I am.
It's it's just so complicated.
Yeah.
And I think it is important to say that with the cliques, and I think maybe you'll get there, but it's really important for kids to know when they are rejected from a clique because it's
Pretty common that that happens.
Like let's say you have a best friend and then there's like three other friends that you hang out with, and then for whatever reason your best friend decides, I'm gonna hang out with those three other friends.
I want them to be my best friend and not you
Typically it's actually more like a survival instinct from the best friend to be like, I want to hang out with these other three best friends because I don't want to be left behind.
And I'm starting to sense that one of us is gonna be left behind and it's not gonna be me
Yep.
And all of a sudden, often it's your securely attached child who knows how to be healthy in relationships.
It's like, what the heck, why am I left out?
Because they're not seeking maybe that belonging in the same way as the other friends are in that group.
So often when it comes to friendships, it is very hard for the kids who actually have healthy relationships with their parents.
Because they maybe don't have that same survival instinct to stay a part of that friend group in the way that the other friends do.
And it seems like, at least based on what I was reading, like you said.
Let's say if you and your best friend have been best friends forever, but all of a sudden she starts seeing you as someone who's slightly less cool, doesn't do the same things that others do, isn't able to
join the same sports teams or something like that.
It's just a developmental response or a psychological response, I guess, for that child to then go search out others so that they don't get, yeah, like you're saying, left behind
Yeah.
So like I think about me as a kid, like I had a secure relationship with my parents.
I didn't feel the need to do things just because they were cool.
Like I just never felt that.
Because I feel like cause I had my sense of belonging at home.
I had a break from all these friends at home.
So I just never felt like oh I have to join the sports team because it's like the cool thing to do.
I just never felt that
So I think it was difficult for my best friend at the time because I just didn't care to do the cool things, right?
First off, she had other interests than me, but she also might have been interested in hanging out with
different cliques that I just didn't care about.
I would have been fine just to hang out with one kid, right?
Well what that often meant was that I was left behind.
Let's move on.
This is a big one for parents, knowing when to step in
The research makes a clear distinction between developmentally typical conflict and bullying.
What are the key red flags, like a power imbalance or repetition, that tell a parent, okay, this has crossed a line and I need to intervene?
Yeah, I always tell parents for friendship drama or just conflict, we want to try and equip our children to be able to respond.
But when it comes to bullying, it should always be parental involvement
So bullying is intentional, it is repeated, it is cruel, it is hurtful, and it is known that it is hurtful.
So the person who is doing the bullying, they know what they are doing, right?
They know that what they are saying to this other person is going to be hurtful, it's going to be mean, it's going to put the bully in a position of power
and it's repeated and it's targeted.
Versus friendship drama, it might be mean, it might be cruel, but it might not intentionally be that way.
But if it starts to become like a pattern, I would get myself involved again.
It seems like the biggest distinction is in bullying there's usually a power imbalance.
So one person is doing it to the other
And repetitively versus in like a typical conflict, it's potentially both are fighting with each other because they believe one thing and the other one wants to do something different
But there's not necessarily this one person who's doing it to the other.
Yeah, there could be a disagreement or there could even be hurt feelings, right?
Like I don't want to hang out with you because I want to hang out with cool kids.
That's not necessarily bullying, right?
That's someone thinks they're just being direct on saying how they feel.
They're not realizing the betrayal that this causes the other friend.
Whereas bullying would be like
you're not cool, like you're terrible, you're this, you're that, and like one way street, one person constantly saying these things to the other kid.
So it's important to note the difference and when to equip your child and coach them and when you need to get involved
Okay.
Let's assume that our daughter has a typical conflict with a friend.
Your advice is to be more of a coach, friendship coach, and not a referee.
So not
telling them exactly what they have to do or what rules to follow.
Can you walk us through the steps that you would take, starting with maybe the first crucial step, which I think is tackling feelings first before you even try to problem solve
Yeah, so your instinct as a parent or a lot of people's instincts is to come and just fix it.
Like I'm just gonna tell you exactly.
Say this thing to your friend and boom, it's gonna be better.
Or like a classic example of like just stop being friends with them then.
Like I think a lot of parents will say that don't be friends with someone who treats you that way.
What we need to understand is if
Children are desperately trying to understand themselves and have a sense of belonging.
We need to first understand how deep the wound is when there is a friendship drama going on, especially when it has to do with the best friend.
So first we have to understand that we have to, like you said, talk about the feelings first.
So I would start by just saying, like, help me understand what happened.
Slow yourself down.
Get your child to tell you all the details, right?
Say, what are you feeling right now?
What's going through your mind?
Get them to tell you about how it feels like they're unlovable or they're uncool or
whatever it is that's going on and validate that that feels very real for them and it makes sense that this would be so hard.
What you need to do and what's so important in this age is that children need to get their
True intimate conversation needs met by you.
By a trusted adult who knows how to have difficult conversations
not by another 11-year-old girl who doesn't know how to have intimate conversations, right?
I feel like that's still a challenge for adults though.
It's a challenge for many adults and this is often where adults like really have to learn how to have these conversations because they're like
Shoot, I don't want my daughter going to an eleven year old girl to get her life problem solved.
Yeah.
So I better learn how to be that coach for her so she comes to me.
So parents really matter in these years.
So after that, then I would
See if your child has any ideas like what do you want to do next?
That's usually what I'd ask.
And we've had our daughter come to us with stuff.
Or I might say something like, What do you wish you would have said?
And I know when our daughter has struggles like, oh I wish I would have said this, right?
So we might
Get that out there.
Like if you could have said anything in that moment without feeling too nervous to say it, what would you have said to this person?
Or you might say to your child something like, what do you hope will happen next?
Because sometimes kids will be like, I need some space, like I don't really wanna keep being friends with her or I don't really wanna play with her tomorrow, but I feel like I have to, or whatever.
Like still
Find out what your child really wants.
At the same time, your child's trying to form their identity right now, right?
So you might have to do some explaining, and this is where it's helpful that you're listening to this episode of why friendship drama happens
to your child to help her understand that it's not so personal.
I remember one time, this was a long time ago, someone called our child dumb, right?
And they were like
You're a dummy, whatever.
And they were being really mean to her on the school bus.
And I remember we had to coach her through like, why do kids call other kids dumb?
It's not because they're dumb.
It's because whatever, there's a whole bunch of reasons why a kid might call another kid dumb.
Like maybe someone is calling them mean names at home and they're trying to see how it feels to call
you that mean name, right?
Maybe they had a hard day and they're just letting it out on you because they know you'll just take it because you're a nice kid and you're not gonna fight back.
Well in that case too, I think she didn't want to play their game that they were playing.
Yeah.
Maybe they're frustrated with you.
It doesn't mean you're actually done.
Right?
So
You want to do some explaining, some psychoeducation on why why friendships will happen?
to happen in most households.
It is but it happens in ours because you're just psychological.
And that is what I do as a therapist.
You know that I've had so many girls come to my practice who don't want to go to school.
And when I find out why, it's because they have all this friendship drama at school.
Yep.
And so
depersonalizing the drama, like helping them understand that it's not really about them and helping them even try and like think of what else might be going on in their friends' lives.
has really helped kids I work with be like, oh okay, so I'm not a terrible person or I'm not uncool or I'm not like too ugly or whatever.
It has more to do with these other people than it has to do with me
So doing that and then I think the last piece would be like trying to help your child figure out how they want to fix it.
Do they want to try and repair the relationship?
Do they have to say sorry?
Right?
Sometimes our kids are the ones who are making the mistakes and they might be like, oh shoot, I wish I never said that.
They might have to go and say sorry and apologize.
And then we want to roleplay how to do that.
So before you start roleplaying all that
Is there a point at which you're trying to understand the other child's perspective?
Like you're talking about what could possibly be going on in their life.
I would ask my child
What else do you think's going on for this person?
Right?
Like maybe they know things about their home.
I don't know.
But they might also just say, well, right before she got really mad at me, she was playing
basketball and she couldn't get any of the hoops in and she was really frustrated and then she came over to me and she said, blah blah blah blah blah to me and then she stormed off.
So like, okay, so she was really frustrated
Right.
So maybe she was frustrated actually about basketball and it wasn't just about you.
Somehow she took it out on you and it hurt your feelings.
Because I could see that in our daughter too.
Like I could easily see one of the kids being like
just in a bad mood and not wanting to talk to anyone and all of a sudden the friend takes it as oh they don't want to play with me.
Meanwhile she was just like overstimulated and needed to walk around by herself.
Right.
And then she's like, So and so doesn't want to play with me and you're like, Well, what were you doing?
Well, I didn't want to talk to anyone 'cause I was in a bad mood.
Oh, okay, so maybe she thought you didn't want to play with her.
Right.
So you wanna get both perspectives and understand that sometimes it is as simple as
They're just frustrated.
They're in a bad mood and everyone's taking it personal and it escalates.
Also, we do need to keep in mind eight to thirteen girls get really moody.
Hormones are changing and moodiness is a known thing in these ages.
So that's definitely something you want to keep in mind.
Yeah, there's body changes.
Puberty is happening.
There's hormonal shifts that are occurring.
Yeah, yeah.
That makes sense.
Hey friends, so at pickup last week our daughter asked Scott a truly kind of tricky question in front of her younger siblings.
Scott was telling me that when he heard a question like this, he used to panic, but this time he had a plan.
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Let's talk tonight when we've got privacy.
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Okay, let's move on.
One thing that I found that was quite surprising was that some longitudinal studies actually suggested that for the aggressor, the person who is potentially bullying or
creating some of these conflicts for them relational aggression can actually increase feelings of intimacy and bonding with their friends.
So not the person that they're let's say attacking, but the other friends.
And
There was comparisons to something like a social virus that strengthens the bond between the carriers while infecting the broader environment.
How do we as parents make sense of this and how does it explain why these behaviors are so persistent?
It makes so much sense to me.
I think I've been on both ends of it.
I've been on the end of
the person who everyone is, let's say in elementary school, the just the the unliked person, right?
And it's easier for everyone to be like, oh, Jess is she doesn't care about any sport.
She doesn't care about this.
And like everyone's kind of mad at you.
for a certain reason, but it brings them closer because it gives them something to talk about.
Right?
They have something to talk about and go back to belonging.
They can all agree that this person's on the out and hey, that makes the rest of us feel like we're on the in.
We all belong to each other.
We are all close.
And we all get along and we all agree this person's out.
So it does bring a sense of belonging when everyone's angry at one person.
So I think that
That's important for kids to understand if they are that person who's on the out, right?
It's less often about that specific person and more about
We're all bonded together.
And now, if I'm in this group and I say, actually, she's kind of a nice person.
Like, I don't think we're really being fair to her
Now I'm kicked out too.
You become more of a social pariah, like you're you're not as well liked because of that.
Exactly.
And I think I've also been on that side of things where you feel guilty about it years later where you're like
That other person never deserved to be cut out from the group, but I was so nervous to say anything in the idea that I would now be cut out from the screen.
It's an act of self-preservation.
It's an act of self-preservation
Well obviously the kids probably don't understand that either, right?
They don't know what they're doing.
They don't understand this.
But as a parent, you can say you might even notice it, be like, hey, so-and-so always played with you guys, and now I hear you guys all talking bad about her
Like help me understand what's going on.
Right.
Like I do think as parents we can kind of coach our kids through this to help them understand what's going on and the potential impact that they might be having on this other person as well.
I think
Or younger children, yes, I can see how that is possible.
I have a hard time seeing how a parent can control that unless they don't allow
their child to use like a phone or something like that to communicate with friends, but once you have that, I feel like it's next to impossible to even see what's happening.
Yeah.
And this is more common with the phones.
Yeah, that's when you have to have that relationship where your child trusts you.
But I think it could possibly cause your child to be the one that maybe doesn't fit in.
I don't know.
It totally could.
Especially I'm hearing this all the time with kids who are getting phones is the alienation that happens on the phone is next level.
Like that always happened at school, but now they'll be like
groups, Snapchat groups, I hate so-and-so, or just groups that literally are just talking bad about certain kids in the class as a form of bonding, right?
This is like an age-old thing like
Girls have always done this at this age, but now it's amplified so much more.
And screenshots are a thing, right?
So someone's like, hey, check out what everyone's saying about you on this group, all of a sudden sending it, and the rejection's that much higher
I was just talking with a hairdresser yesterday.
I got my hair done and she has a child who's this age, 14, who's a boy, but she was sinking.
the girls in the class are it's awful, she was saying like what's happening on Snapchat, what's happening on social media and she's like the alienation that the girls have, like the way that they talk bad about each other and then show each other.
what the bad things are that they're saying is just beyond.
And I know that because I hear that all the schools I talk to, but it's just important for parents to be aware of that.
And it's
And yes, your child might be on the outs if they don't have it, but also they might be saved from from things too.
See in that situation
And this might be controversial, but I 100% put blame on the parents for that.
If a class of 14-year-old girls is doing that and they have access to phones and they are
creating these groups and being this way with each other, that is 100% all of their parents' faults.
But it this happens at every single school.
Like a guarantee.
Yeah.
And I personally I have a hard time with I think
Parents are being incredibly naive if they think that giving their child a device like that that they barely know how to use themselves
that they're gonna be able to control any of what their child does on there.
And yeah, sure, we have to teach our children to be respectful of others and not partake in that.
But I don't know, I think that is one hundred percent the parents to blame for giving them the opportunity to partake in that.
Well and I think everything we're sharing is saying
Basically what we're saying is this is common for this age, right?
The fighting, the drama, the relational struggles between girls.
So if you know that this is likely gonna happen, if you have a child at this age, there will be some struggles, and then you give them a phone
Like what are we expecting is gonna happen?
Yeah, you're you're throwing gasoline on a fire that's already there, right?
Already know the struggle's gonna happen and now they have a function.
Or maybe it's just a spark, but you've thrown gasoline on it and now it's a full-fledged fire.
And what
I was talking about yesterday with the hairdresser too, as we were having this conversation, is we used to get a break from it.
Right?
So when I was a g a girl this age, I had all this drama for sure.
It was terrible.
I hated it.
It was awful.
I didn't want to go to school.
And I knew when I got home I had a break.
I knew on the weekend I had a break.
I knew in the summer, even if I like fought with my friends till the very end of the school year, I had a break and we got a fresh start in September.
But now children don't get a break.
They go home and they talk to their same friends.
On the weekend, they're still talking to them.
And it's escalating.
It's really out of control.
And it's a huge issue.
So I feel like yeah, we can't have the friendship conversation without talking about that because that's huge.
Yeah, and especially as they get older too.
Like we've heard of kids that are only a year older than our daughter already last year with phones
in grade three.
Grade three, yeah.
Which is, again, forgive me for being controversial, but that is probably the stupidest thing that a parent can do.
Give their child a phone in grade three.
There's literally zero reason for it.
Zero logical reason for that.
And so I think to bring it back again to belonging, children are basically saying to their parents, if you don't give me a phone, I'm gonna be rejected.
And so parents are having to make a decision to say, either my child is rejected because they don't have a phone, right?
Or I give them a phone and maybe they'll
have friends.
I think that is where this is coming from in terms of kids in social media.
And what I say to parents is like if
your child feels like their friends are gonna reject them because they don't have a phone.
Do you really want your child talking to those friends on a phone?
Yeah, no.
Right?
Like you have to think up think about that.
And like that for so many parents I've talked to has been eye-open.
Like, oh my goodness, I never thought about it that way.
Their friends are already willing to reject them.
So why is that going to be better when they have a phone?
It's not about the phone.
Yeah.
Right.
But I actually have a lot of compassion for parents who give their kids a phone for that reason because I think they're understanding their child's need for belonging.
But they're what they're misunderstanding is that the f
They're thinking the phone will resolve that issue for them where it actually is not going to do that.
Yeah, and maybe for me it's just so clear that a phone or a device is never going to do that.
Yeah.
I think it's so clear.
That is black and white in my mind.
Yeah, I think it's so clear for you, but I think a lot of parents are confused because they're having their daughters crying to them saying
Mom, like every other girl in the class has one.
Like if I don't have one, I'm not gonna know what the weekend plans are.
I'm gonna be not included because
They're all planning things on Snapchat and then they went to a party and no one told me and that's what they're hearing from their daughters who are crying being like, I want to be included, I want to belong.
And they're just like, if I give them a phone, well then they won't be left out from the weekend plans, not thinking, if my daughter's already not being told about the plans, even from these other moms of these kids, right?
It's not gonna get better with a phone, right?
But I think sometimes people are just hearing what they're hearing and they're like, I don't want my daughter to not belong.
I didn't belong when I was a kid, so I want her to fit in with her friends.
And that's where the phone comes in.
So I do have compassion.
I understand where you come from.
Maybe I have less, but I know you have less compassion, but I have to always state my piece as a therapist who's worked with those moms who've been like, that's why I gave her a phone and now what
Because now she's being bullied and I feel terrible about it and I have to reverse my way out of this and that's really hard.
So I get your perspective, but I also did want to give that compassion if there's a parent listening who's like, listen, I did that and
because of I wanted her to belong, but now what?
Yeah.
I mean we've had a whole conversation on screens.
Yeah.
Social media, that stuff, so Yeah.
If you're interested, you can listen to that one.
I think I actually got quite almost as fiery in that one.
I actually do think it's important that people hear you be fiery about it too.
So I think both are true.
We need both perspe we need the fiery perspective, but we also need people need to be heard too.
Anyone I have a conversation with?
There's only a few things in life that I'm very much it has to be one way, and this is one of them.
I just I don't see the reason for a child ever to have a phone.
It just doesn't make sense to me.
And I think it's also like this is a whole separate discussion, but like when your kids don't have a phone, like our kids don't have a phone, they don't use much screens.
Yeah, they don't even have a tablet or anything.
They don't have a tablet.
They don't have anything.
That it is just the way it is.
And I think as soon as you give your child that, it's hard to be like, they could do life without it.
But they could, but it's hard to see it because now they use their tablet every day and it's just part of like who they are and what they look forward to and all these things.
If your kids have never like if you have young kids and they've never had a tablet and they've never had a phone, they don't know different
And they're okay without it.
So just don't feel like you have to give it to them just because all your friends give their kids.
Right.
Yeah, like I've been trying to teach very slowly our oldest how to use a computer, but I have
specifically set up a Raspberry Pi which uses an operating system built on Linux, which is like a lot of things are built off of that.
Anyways.
I'm doing that because I know that, first of all, it's a very controlled environment in which I'm teaching her.
And the skills that she's learning on there will make
using anything, any other device in the future much easier.
But I know it's a very controlled environment to her for her to learn.
Yeah, it's not like you never give your kids technology, but it is about slowly easing them into it
in controlled environments where you're involved, right?
Okay.
So that's a separate topic.
Let's get back to girl drama.
Yeah.
So another interesting study I found, it's kind of related to the the last one was about
the link between friendship, intimacy, and relational aggression in girls.
It seems the very closeness and emotional sharing that makes their friendship so valuable.
also creates the vulnerability for this specific kind of hurt.
Is it fair to say that the potential for deep connection is linked to the potential for deep pain in these relationships?
Yeah, I think that's fair to say.
I think that's fair to say in any relationship, the more intimate details you share.
And I think friendships are just so not talked about, like the level of intimacy that you can have with a friend.
And how much a friend can hurt you.
Like we you talk about romantic relationships like that, but it's rare that we talk about how deeply a friend
can wound you, right?
And I think the more intimate you are with a friend in terms of like how much you share, inviting them into your home, like if you have sleepovers with them, if you divulge personal information about your life, when you are rejected or betrayed, like that
is a wound that can be painful for life.
So I think even with our kids, if you notice that you have a child who like very easily falls for a friendship, you know, and like shares everything about their lives
Sometimes it's even about teaching kids for like how much to disclose, how to learn, how to trust someone, just to guard them from that hurt as well.
Not to say don't trust your friends, but I feel like some kids are just naturally so beautifully trusting that they pour their heart and souls out and they get
hurt very easily because they're trusting people maybe that they can't trust.
So maybe this is a good segue into one of my final questions, which is if a parent
could focus on teaching their daughter one or two key skills to help her build resilient friendships.
What would you say are the most important ones to prioritize?
I'd say helping your child maybe notice some red and green flags in terms of relationships.
Like I'll give you an example.
Like I would say a red flag in a friendship
Something I've learned over time is one that happens extremely fast.
Like a red flag would be like we barely knew each other and a month later we're like the best friends of like
We're the bestest closest friends.
I'm telling her everything.
She's telling me everything.
Like good, solid relationships take a while to build and it takes
slowly sharing vulnerable things about yourself over time and seeing how they handle it and slowly kind of like letting them into your life.
That's going to be a more lasting friendship
typically than something that happens like so f like a whirlwind.
So I tell my kids to like be careful for those whirlwind friendships and maybe they turn into something.
Beautiful and lasting, but maybe they don't.
And then I also help them notice some green flakes.
Like you feel safe around them.
You want to spend time with them.
They want to spend time with you.
You're not like always pursuing them.
They also ask you to play.
Like it's a
back and forth.
It's not just like one-way street.
So I would be trying to help my children understand and identify green and red flags in friendships and they need that.
coach to support them.
And then the the main thing that I'd always do is make sure that they get their sense of belonging met at home, right?
They feel seen at home.
We understand their hobbies.
We're helping them understand who they are as people, what what do they value, what's important to them, what do they like, so that they can show up authentically in their friendships and not just show up as what do one of my clients call it
One of my I was working with a kid once and she was this age, she was like 13 or something, and she was so annoyed with all of her friends because all they they were all followers and she started calling them all dogs or something like that.
'Cause she's like, all they do is like follow me around and like do everything I do.
Like I want them to be themselves.
Like I don't want them to be me.
But she was so like confident and like she knew who she was.
But she's like, they're all like dogs.
They just follow me around.
Right?
So I always kind of think of that because it was kind of funny, but also like so true is that we want to teach our kids to be themselves.
And not just be followers to all the other friends.
And I think when they can be themselves and it's also more attractive.
I think this girl was attractive to the other kids because she was so confident in who she was, right?
Well and if we go back to what you were saying earlier in this episode.
If we as parents are helping them feel comfortable being authentic, they base the relationship, all other relationships on that relationship they have with you.
So if they feel safe with you and feel like they can be
actually who they are, then they'll know what to expect from their other friends too.
Exactly.
And then they can identify red flags.
Like I remember identifying red flags in my friendships because I'm like, I've never been treated this way in my life
So wait, why do you think it's okay to treat me this way?
No one treats me this way.
And I was able to, at an early age, identify this friendship as unhealthy because my parents would never have treated me that way
So just know that the type of parenting you're doing is a protection for unhealthy friendships.
And it might sometimes mean that your child is not engaging in this unhealthy friendship behavior, right?
Which might make them like sometimes
not be the one who has like be on the outside.
Maybe it will be more attractive to other kids.
That's the hope.
Yeah.
Especially if there are other kids in
in that same class that feel or are similar.
I don't know, I feel like confidence is attractive, right?
Well it's not even just
Is it confidence?
Yeah, I mean confidence is attractive, but also is seeing consistently through all of school that someone is just consistently kind to others and respectful and
Fun, funny.
I think it's not just the confidence, it's everything, all the attributes of of that person that kind of make others want to be friends with them.
Yeah, I think that's true
And I think oh this is a separate conversation, but I've been seeing a lot of stuff and like how to make your kid popular, how to raise a popular kid, how to raise a kid who's the leader of their friend group.
Like to be honest, I don't give a shit about any of those things.
Like I wanna raise my kid.
to know who they are.
This is where I say I'm saying confidence, like to know who they are, to be confident in it, to be able to be kind and respectful to others, but also to know that they deserve to be treated with kindness and respect.
And hopefully that makes them have a core group of friends that trust them and respect them.
But to raise a kid with the goal of making them popular, I think, is silly.
Like we don't need to worry about that.
Yeah.
Like that should not be our goal as parents.
And often if it is, it's we're projecting our own wounds from not being popular.
Or like we were popular and we just want to vicariously live that through our children.
But I don't know.
I'm just like that's I keep seeing reels on that.
I don't know why.
It's like
Seems to be a new thing.
Like I feel like the pendulum always swings now.
It's like back to like raising popular kids, but I don't know.
I just think it's silly.
That is
Well, anyways, thank you for this conversation, Jess.
It was very interesting.
Yeah.
I enjoyed it a lot.
One key thing that I took away from it was understanding that the way girls interact and become friends with each other is quite different.
from how boys in general do.
And like for me, I'm a very direct person.
We've realized.
Yeah, exactly.
So I will just speak my mind because I feel like that's a trustworthy attribute.
Like someone just tells you what you're what they're thinking, you don't have to guess, but that
for the types of intimate relationships that girls often have can be threatening.
So then you just have to be more careful in how you approach it.
I guess.
Yeah, what I was reading in the research is that coaching your daughter to be super direct might not always be exactly how you want to coach her because her
friends are going to have sensitive feelings and they're going to be very sensitive to rejection if they feel rejected by your daughter just because she's being direct, speaking her mind, they might start to reject her.
Right.
And so it might actually lead to more conflict.
So I know you it's not what you call the shit sandwich, but it is about teaching how to be sensitive in the way you deliver information.
You know what I found interesting about our oldest is she delivers information in what I would consider a similar way to maybe you, but also your youngest brother.
She can say something that might be potentially negative or like could hurt someone's feelings, but says it in such a way and with like a little smile on her face, a kind smile, that I don't know, I feel like
It just comes off much much nicer and she's able to explain her thoughts and feelings quite clearly.
Yeah
I think maybe that's what you're lacking when you're being direct.
Like I feel like not that you're lacking, but you can be direct and just like not have a smile on your face and not like show gentleness about you.
And then people can take it as rejection
But if you're direct, but you're smile like you have a smile and it's genuine, like, hey, this is how I'm feeling, and you're honest about it, but it's genuine, you have a smile, and you're showing people like I'm not rejecting you.
I'm just telling you exactly how I feel
I think that like friends of girls or boys, everyone respects that.
Right.
That just for me feels kind of fake.
Like
Why do I have to have a smile to just say this is what I'm thinking?
I'm not trying to hurt your feelings.
Right.
I'm just trying to say this thing and then But people take it at like when you used to be direct with me when we first got married, I took that as rejection.
Like I because you weren't smiling and you're just like saying exactly how you feel, I didn't know how to take that.
So I took that as Scott hates me
Meanwhile you were just trying to tell me I don't like how you folded my underwear.
I don't have no idea.
That's a terrible example.
How you do the dishes.
How you do the dishes.
Okay.
Something simple.
No, that's also bad.
I'm trying to do the sexist examples.
Oh yeah.
You folding my laundry, you doing all the dishes.
Meanwhile, I'm like the least likely to fold laundry.
But
I'm just trying to think like a simple example that's really not you rejecting me, but I would take it as rejection.
Like he's so mad.
Whereas I think if you were a little more gentle about your approach, even if you're like, I don't really understand why I have to be gentle with this
It would preserve the relationship.
And I think that's what we're trying to teach our kids.
So you and the researcher now calling me out for this.
Yes.
I understood.
Although I remember my dad saying a similar like he said something once like I had like two close friends who I actually am still very close with and I was having a whole bunch of problems with other friends and I remember my dad being like just be friends with those two close friends in school
That's all you need.
And just drop everybody else.
And I remember being like thinking it was so insensitive and like he wasn't being insensitive.
He's actually right.
But I think if you can understand that for little girls, like their whole life is wrapped up in this, like it feels like everything in the entire world to them.
Right.
It's all that they really have going on.
Identifying that first and then maybe delivering the truth in a little more of a sensitive way might land better than like just ditch all your friends.
Like, ditch all my friends.
Then who am I?
Right?
Like I need to have friends.
So despite him being right and probably you being right when you're telling our daughter to be direct, the sensitivity I think is really important.
So Yeah.
I know you're called out for that, but you can try it and maybe it'll feel good.
Well
I will say, to be fair to me, I have been doing quite well at that.
You actually have.
You've been like you've changed a lot over the years.
But it's more the fact that I learned about these dynamics and there's now honestly there's a ton of research on it, which is all very interesting.
I understand it a little bit more clearly
Good.
So as much as you're calling me out, I'm saying I'm good.
I don't have toxic at all.
Yeah, exactly.
No.
So that's not as bad as I make him seem, but I do like to pick on him a little bit.
Yeah, don't we all?
Okay.
Good talk.
Good talk.
Well, talk to you soon.
Yeah, thanks for listening.
If you have any comments or questions, let us know.
Truly we we loved this topic.
This was very interesting and I would love to do the opposite
like talk about the boys as well because like they also have fascinating dynamics in terms of friendship struggles.
But yeah, we'd love to know what you think and if you have any more questions and we can
Keep talking.
Yeah, that's all we do.
We just keep talking.
Okay, thanks.
Great.
Bye.
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